Is God unable to create in kind?

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by nrajeff

---Hasbro programmed the robot so that it was GUARANTEED to do evil. Something called a "sin nature" was installed into its DNA. Sound familiar? Yep, that's what Calvinists teach that GOD did to the human race. Or are you claiming that YOU were NOT born with a sin nature--a nature that would guarantee that you were a born sinner? A nature that would make it IMPOSSIBLE for you to NOT do evil?

The sin nature came about though the actions of the creation not the creator. Your robot had the evil placed in him by the manufacture (creator). Your example is still flawed..

Please try to understand, God created man totally pure. It was because man rebelied against Him by an act of their own will that he became evil. God didn't create man evil!!! IHS jim

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by Fig-bearing Thistle

OK, when you said this:



Do you see what is misrepresentation about this?

No Mormonism teaches that God created our spirits and placed them into. First the spirit then the physical body later.. The Bible says (Very clearly) that God Created the spirit of man within him (Zech 12:1) By saying that Mormonism is teaching other than that it is NOT a misrepresentation unless you want to tell me that God didn't create the the spirit of man in a pre-existence.. I am willing to talk about this teaching if you an tell me something new that I am not aware of.. But if the mormon god created the spirits of man before there was a body to created it in I am solid in my statements. IHS jim

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by stemelbow

You didn't address my specific questions again, James. Please try again.

love,
stem

I believe I have, Sorry you can't seem to understand the answer. Go read it again... IHS jim

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by nrajeff

---You're saying that God predestined everyone for salvation? What about your Carm friends who claim that the Bible teaches that God CREATED some people to be vessels for destruction? And that David said he was born in iniquity, a sinner right from the womb? Are you saying your Carm friends, and FJD and Libby are wrong? That they believe non-Christian doctrines?


---You are a man, correct? God created you, correct? Are you saying that God created you with a perfect nature?



--What you have said--that we were created with the ability to choose our own destiny, that it wasn't predestinated before the world was created, that we were made with a perfect nature--all that CONTRADICTS TULIP.

Listen it's because we are predestined to salvation not to wrath. This is what I find as I look into predestined:

Rom 8:29-30
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Moreover whom he did predestined, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Eph 1:5,11
Having predestined us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will

Not one mention of being predestined to wrath.. That is what I meant not that all were predestined to life.. Just that no one is predestined to wrath. IHS jim

[akaSeerone]

You continue to twist what the Bible says so you can mock God and the Bible and then try to use what you have twisted against us Jeff....you should be permanently banned for continuing to do that.

God Created Adam and Eve.

The rest of mankind was born evil. Out of those God choose some to be vessels of wrath for His Glory and some were chosen to serve Him. The rest just remain in the sin nature because of Adam's sin.

So quit with your mocking God and judging Him.

What mormons have is idol worship because they created the God they worship and that is without argument idol worship.

You are setting yourself up for a great fall by judging God.

Andy

[nrajeff]

Originally Posted by James Banta

The sin nature came about though the actions of the creation not the creator.

---So you believe that mere humans have the power to change the nature that God created into them? What about the doctrine of God's Sovereignty, which teaches that NO ONE can undermine God's will, and therefore if a person does evil, it's because God WANTED them to be evil (Predestination)?

Your robot had the evil placed in him by the manufacture (creator). Your example is still flawed..

---Who placed evil in the Garden of Eden? Satan's manufacturer, right?

Please try to understand, God created man totally pure.

---Did God create YOU totally pure? If you say yes, you're agreeing with LDS doctrine. If you say no, then you believe that God only created 0.0000000001% of the human race totally pure--the rest He created like you, with a nature that guarantees that you can't do anything good. That's what Calvinism teaches.

It was because man rebelied against Him by an act of their own will that he became evil. God didn't create man evil!!!

---So you believe that God didn't create YOU evil? You believe that God created YOU good but your rebellion against Him caused you to BECOME evil?

[nrajeff]

Originally Posted by James Banta

Listen it's because we are predestined to salvation not to wrath.

----So you believe that God has predestinated all people to be saved? That is an interesting idea, one that I think your Carm friends will have "issues" over. Besides, I thought you said you believe that God gave everyone free will, the freedom to choose. If He predestinated us all to be saved, how can we have any choice in whether we are saved or not?

Not one mention of being predestined to wrath.. That is what I meant not that all were predestined to life.. Just that no one is predestined to wrath.

---But you said "we are predestined to salvation not to wrath." Now you're saying the opposite--that NOT all of us are predestined to "life" which I presume you equate with salvation. As for "no one is predestined to wrath" I guess you haven't paid attention to your Calvinistic Carm friends when they claimed that the CHRISTIAN doctrine is that God, in His sovereignty, MADE some of us to be nothing BUT vessels fated for wrath. They cite the Bible parable about the pot maker (not the marijuana kind) who intended SOME of his pots to be lasting things of treasured beauty, but who intended OTHER pots--even before he MADE them--to be "mistakes" that were destined to be shattered. It's in Father JD's favorite part of the Bible, Romans 9:

20 The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it?

21 Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use?

22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?

23 And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory,

[nrajeff]

Originally Posted by akaSeerone

You continue to twist what the Bible says so you can mock God and the Bible

---Where have I done any of that?

God Created Adam and Eve.

--That's the first true thing I have seen you say in a while. Congrats!

The rest of mankind was born evil.

---Oh-oh, Paging Jim Banta: Andy has "issues" with your beliefs.

Out of those God choose some to be vessels of wrath for His Glory and some were chosen to serve Him.

---I wonder which of those 2 castes you fall into.

The rest just remain in the sin nature because of Adam's sin

--So you believe there are THREE possible fates for a human being--Predestinated for wrath, predestinated to serve God, and predestinated to remain in the sin nature? Doesn't that throw them in with "predestinated for wrath" folks?

So quit with your mocking God and judging Him.

---I am just judging the reasonableness of your beliefs. Unless you are God, I am not judging God.

[Father_JD]

jeff...how many times do I need to correct your twisted understanding of "Calvinistic" i.e. biblical teaching?

Once again, jeff, just for YOU:

1. God did NOT create evil beings.
2. He declared ALL to have been created "good".
3. God DID foreknow the future corruption of his creation, i.e. Lucifer, et al.
4. ALL evil, etc. has been perpetuated by these beings, HENCE THEY ARE SECONDARY CAUSES
4. Since God KNEW this, then one asks WHY.
5. The biblical answer is "according to his own pleasure", i.e. designs, purposes.
6. You've consistently affirmed that the Mormo-diet is NOT:

a. Omnisicient
b. Omnipotent
c. Sovereign

You may believe what you want, but remember that Mormo-god is NOT THE OMNISCIENT, OMNIPOTENT AND SOVEREIGN GOD OF THE BIBLE.

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by stemelbow

do you know what you're talking about? My argument does not rest on whether anyone knows evil will be practiced. It rests on your concept of God, by logical extension, being the sole source of evil since He obviously had to be the first one ever to conceive of the concept.

love,
stem

And knowing that evil could or will take place makes the God who created ALL things evil, right? IHS jim

[nrajeff]

[quote=Father_JD;52164]jeff...how many times do I need to correct your twisted understanding of "Calvinistic" i.e. biblical teaching?
---So "Calvinism" equals "Biblical" now? What does "Arminianism" equal, then? Satanic? This could be a fun debate.

Once again, jeff, just for YOU:

---Maybe one of these times I will see the light. Not THIS time, though.

1. God did NOT create evil beings.

--Did God create YOU?
a) yes
b) no

Were you a sinner right from the womb, as Calvinism teaches?
a) yes
b) no

2. He declared ALL to have been created "good".

--I thought He declared "There are NONE good except for God."

[Father_JD]

FJD: jeff...how many times do I need to correct your twisted understanding of "Calvinistic" i.e. biblical teaching?

---So "Calvinism" equals "Biblical" now? What does "Arminianism" equal, then? Satanic? This could be a fun debate.

So-called "Arminianism" is in error, that's for sure. Error does not necessarily mean "Satanic", jeff.


Quote:
Once again, jeff, just for YOU:

---Maybe one of these times I will see the light. Not THIS time, though.

It's up to you, dude.



Quote:
1. God did NOT create evil beings.

--Did God create YOU?
a) yes
b) no

I'm refererencing BEFORE the Fall, jeff. And NO, God did NOT directly create me. Only Adam and Eve were "created by God", i.e. directly.

Were you a sinner right from the womb, as Calvinism teaches?
a) yes
b) no

The Bible teaches we are BORN IN SIN. We have the sin nature, and BECAUSE we possess the sin nature, we WILL sin.


Quote:
2. He declared ALL to have been created "good".

--I thought He declared "There are NONE good except for God."

Again, I'm referring to ORIGINAL CREATION BEFORE SIN ENTERED THE COSMOS. No one is "good" in our NATURAL, FALLEN STATE, jeff.

Did you purposely equivocate my remarks??

[nrajeff]

Originally Posted by Father_JD

FJD: jeff...how many times do I need to correct your twisted understanding of "Calvinistic" i.e. biblical teaching?

---Until it ceases to be fun bantering with you.

So-called "Arminianism" is in error, that's for sure. Error does not necessarily mean "Satanic", jeff.

---But if it is contra-Biblical, how can Arminianism NOT be "another gospel," which therefore teaches "another Jesus," which is therefore "non-Christian"? Come on, stand up to those anti-Bible Arminians who dare to call themselves Christians! Let's start a T.E.A. party to oppose them! (Trash Everything Arminian)

I'm refererencing BEFORE the Fall, jeff.

--Ah, so you believe that God was only able to create non-evil things BEFORE that dang Fall ruined His abilities? What happened to omnipotence?

And NO, God did NOT directly create me. Only Adam and Eve were "created by God", i.e. directly.

--Ah, yes, God is now merely a "secondary creator." So you believe that after the 6th day of creation, God said "That's it, I'm done creating, let someone else take over the job from here on out, and good luck to them, whoever they are."

The Bible teaches we are BORN IN SIN.

---But not created in sin, you say. How can you be born without being created? Sounds like a case of anti-equivocation: Creating an imaginary difference between two words that are actually synonymous. Hey, you are a creator--you created a fallacious argument! (But just a secondary creator, right? )

We have the sin nature, and BECAUSE we possess the sin nature, we WILL sin.

---So if God --"the father of spirits," according to the Bible--didn't create your spirit, then who did? Did Mr. and Mrs. FJD Sr. really have the power to create spirits? I thought it was supposed to be the MORMONS who ascribe superhuman powers to mere mortals. Or is it "only a deity can create spirits" that those pesky Mormons believe?

Again, I'm referring to ORIGINAL CREATION BEFORE SIN ENTERED THE COSMOS.

--Interesting statement. So you believe that sin entered our cosmos from some...other...cosmos? Who let it in? Why didn't they put up some cherubim with light sabers to keep this sin from entering our cosmos? Seems like our cosmos was a pretty utopian place, until sin entered from the "sin cosmos" and nobody tried to stop it. Look what a disaster our cosmos has turned into, and it could have been prevented, if only our cosmos had not been invaded by "The sin from another cosmos." Wasn't that the title of an old, black-and-white sci-fi movie?

No one is "good" in our NATURAL, FALLEN STATE, jeff.

---Not even Mother Teresa? It's hard for me to make myself say out loud "Mother Teresa was not good." Maybe it's easier for you to form the words. How about the men who infallibly, inerrantly wrote each book that's now in the official (non-Catholic) Bible? Not good men? Again, it's hard for me to make myself say "The Bible was written by evil men." It just doesn't seem right to me. How much "training" (conditioning) did you have to undergo, before "The Bible was written by evil men" was easy for you to say? Isn't that a symptom of a cult mentalilty---being conditioned to say incorrect things until the subject genuinely believes he is saying something that is true?

Did you purposely equivocate my remarks??

---Why--am I good at it? (Remember there are none that are good....)

[Father_JD]

Originally Posted by Father_JD
FJD: jeff...how many times do I need to correct your twisted understanding of "Calvinistic" i.e. biblical teaching?

---Until it ceases to be fun bantering with you.

So, it MUST be fun correcting you, jeff.


Quote:
So-called "Arminianism" is in error, that's for sure. Error does not necessarily mean "Satanic", jeff.

---But if it is contra-Biblical, how can Arminianism NOT be "another gospel," which therefore teaches "another Jesus," which is therefore "non-Christian"? Come on, stand up to those anti-Bible Arminians who dare to call themselves Christians! Let's start a T.E.A. party to oppose them! (Trash Everything Arminian)

Arminians believe in sola gratia, sola fide. THAT is the gospel, jeff. You on the other hand, don't believe the biblical gospel.


Quote:
I'm refererencing BEFORE the Fall, jeff.

--Ah, so you believe that God was only able to create non-evil things BEFORE that dang Fall ruined His abilities? What happened to omnipotence?

God has ONLY created "good" creation. The Fall changed all that, jeff. Isn't Mormo-god "omnipotent"? Or is it he couldn't do a thing?


Quote:
And NO, God did NOT directly create me. Only Adam and Eve were "created by God", i.e. directly.

--Ah, yes, God is now merely a "secondary creator." So you believe that after the 6th day of creation, God said "That's it, I'm done creating, let someone else take over the job from here on out, and good luck to them, whoever they are."

Right. God CEASED His creation on the 6th day. NOW He SUSTAINS His creation.



Quote:
The Bible teaches we are BORN IN SIN.

---But not created in sin, you say. How can you be born without being created? Sounds like a case of anti-equivocation: Creating an imaginary difference between two words that are actually synonymous. Hey, you are a creator--you created a fallacious argument! (But just a secondary creator, right? )

Only Adam and Eve were CREATED directly by God...and NOT PRO-created as Mormons believe!!!



Quote:
We have the sin nature, and BECAUSE we possess the sin nature, we WILL sin.

---So if God --"the father of spirits," according to the Bible--didn't create your spirit, then who did? Did Mr. and Mrs. FJD Sr. really have the power to create spirits? I thought it was supposed to be the MORMONS who ascribe superhuman powers to mere mortals. Or is it "only a deity can create spirits" that those pesky Mormons believe?

I didn't say He didn't "create" my spirit...but the question that the bible does NOT answer is how the "spirit" comes about in the human body. Primary creation or secondary creation...we don't KNOW, but God "created" us one way or another.


Quote:
Again, I'm referring to ORIGINAL CREATION BEFORE SIN ENTERED THE COSMOS.

--Interesting statement. So you believe that sin entered our cosmos from some...other...cosmos? Who let it in? Why didn't they put up some cherubim with light sabers to keep this sin from entering our cosmos? Seems like our cosmos was a pretty utopian place, until sin entered from the "sin cosmos" and nobody tried to stop it. Look what a disaster our cosmos has turned into, and it could have been prevented, if only our cosmos had not been invaded by "The sin from another cosmos." Wasn't that the title of an old, black-and-white sci-fi movie?

Meaning, sin didn't exist in this one and only "universe", jeff. Ultimately, the answer lies with God Himself as to why He permitted sin/evil to come about.


Quote:
No one is "good" in our NATURAL, FALLEN STATE, jeff.

---Not even Mother Teresa?...

Are you declaring Mother Teresa has NEVER having been REGENERATED or "born again"?? Do you really believe that Mother Teresa NEVER sinned, either before regeneration or assuming she was, afterwards?

...It's hard for me to make myself say out loud "Mother Teresa was not good." Maybe it's easier for you to form the words. How about the men who infallibly, inerrantly wrote each book that's now in the official (non-Catholic) Bible? Not good men? Again, it's hard for me to make myself say "The Bible was written by evil men." It just doesn't seem right to me. How much "training" (conditioning) did you have to undergo, before "The Bible was written by evil men" was easy for you to say? Isn't that a symptom of a cult mentalilty---being conditioned to say incorrect things until the subject genuinely believes he is saying something that is true?

You judge others by men's standards, jeff...and definitely NOT God's.

Quote:
Did you purposely equivocate my remarks??

---Why--am I good at it? (Remember there are none that are good....)

Yeah. You're good at doing BAD things ( like equivocation), jeff.