Apropos

[johnd]

It is apropos that Jill and Kevin put paganism under the heading of the Kingdom of the Occult. For that which we think of as inhumanly satanic is actually more human than Christianity is.

Christianity is the calling out from our human nature to be adopted into the spirit nature (children of God) which is imputed to us. Yet until we die are raptured or glorified, we carry along with the new nature the old nature (done away with only as our only choice).

It is unsettling to realize we are satanically inclined by nature. We like to think of ourselves as spiritually neutral, as blank slates that could go either way... but the Bible is clear...

Romans 5:8-10
8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Ephesians 2:
1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Note the juxtaposition in Christ's comments:

Matthew 16:23
23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

The allure (if you can call it that) of the occult is not necessarily some anti-religious hatred of God, deliberate embrace of the devil, or retaliation or even some self-deprecation act as much as it is simply a deeper form of humanism than are false religion, cultism, agnosticism, or atheism. This plus the fact that most underestimate the wickedness of human nature makes the occult extremely dangerous.

The occult is a chameleon. It infiltrates and mimics various religions and even cultures (the Jamaican /voodoo culture comes to mind)... but also our own. You see it's not just Harry Potter, but it's Bewitched, and I Dream of Jeannie... and other such "that's not so bad" entry ways into the occult.

Author and guest speaker Jill Martin-Rische writes of her experience with another entry gate way into the occult in the Parker Brothers Ouija board game. Actual fallen angel spirits are summoned in this game and give answers to questioned posed.

The aliens on various science fiction shows we (certainly I) tend to indulge are agents of confusion regarding humanity and extraterrestrials. God and angels are not of this world, and are therefore the only extraterrestrials the Bible reveals. Briefly, sin being the cause of death / the devolution of the universe:

Romans 8:20-22
20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope
21 that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.
22 We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time.

Aliens from another world would be dealt unholy injustice suffering death and a crumbling universe for the sins of earthlings.

This is why scientists are so desperate to find life on other planets... even the possibility of life... because even they know it would cause serious problems for the validity of scripture...

They are almost drunk with religious fervor over the possibility of life (even microorganisms) that they have lost all perspective of their reputation... in science reputation is second only to law. And they throw all of that out the widow forgetting that possibility does not mean probability.

And gloating over just the possibility of something as they have this matter makes them appear quite foolish in the eyes of their own colleagues. This too is a form of the chameleon / occult / humanism.

[IncitingRiots]

"You see it's not just Harry Potter, but it's Bewitched, and I Dream of Jeannie... and other such "that's not so bad" entry ways into the occult."

Oh come now, are you serious? Harry Potter, Bewitched do you really think those things could have a negative impact on people? It is nothing but sheer fantasy. That is one slippery slope you must be on to try and make an argument like that. What's next? Are you going to call ouija boards evil, despite the fact they are made by Parker Brothers?

"Author and guest speaker Jill Martin-Rische writes of her experience with another entry gate way into the occult in the Parker Brothers Ouija board game. Actual fallen angel spirits are summoned in this game and give answers to questioned posed"

Wow, I can't believe you actually did. I hope you are aware that oujia boards are nothing more than novelties. There is no contact made with any spiritis, good or bad. That is another thing, why does it have to be evil? What is inherently evil about someone wanting to talk to their dead grandma, or friend? If anything you think people woulf be for it. Think about it, you could talk to a dead person who could tell you that heaven and god real, bam, no more argument. But no, for some reason they are evil....

"This is why scientists are so desperate to find life on other planets... even the possibility of life... because even they know it would cause serious problems for the validity of scripture"

Scientists are not desperate to find life on other planets. If they were it would certainly have nothing to do with disproving scripture. The job of science is to find out the unknown. It really has no stake in trying to disprove god. If anything it is the religions who would seek to disprove science. Just to let you know, microorganisms have been found on mars. While not as advanced as human life, it is still a life form none the less.

" that possibility does not mean probability"

The same can be said about your belief in god....

[Jill]

John D - "You see it's not just Harry Potter, but it's Bewitched, and I Dream of Jeannie... and other such "that's not so bad" entry ways into the occult."

IR - Oh come now, are you serious? Harry Potter, Bewitched do you really think those things could have a negative impact on people? It is nothing but sheer fantasy. That is one slippery slope you must be on to try and make an argument like that. What's next? Are you going to call ouija boards evil, despite the fact they are made by Parker Brothers?

Jill - Actually, in The Kingdom of the Occult, we prove using statistics that interest in Witchcraft has exploded since the arrival of Harry Potter. I'll be glad to send you a copy, IR. As to Bewitched and I Dream of Jeannie, the first used the word "Witchcraft" --accepted now as a religion--and that is forbidden by God. Yes, the show is cute and funny, but this is dangerous ground and they should have stayed off it. As to how many were influenced by it, I would have to research that. Jeannie, on the other hand, was simply based on a fable and usually, harmless.

There is nothing wrong with using our imaginations to invent stories of impossible things, but calling these powers "Witchcraft" is crossing the line.

Satan has always, historically, presented himself as an angel of light. When demons talk to you through tools of the occult like Ouija Boards or digital recorders, they invariably start off as funny guys doing cool tricks--often revealing secret knowledge about people in the room. It's their modus operandi and has been for thousands of years.

"Author and guest speaker Jill Martin-Rische writes of her experience with another entry gate way into the occult in the Parker Brothers Ouija board game. Actual fallen angel spirits are summoned in this game and give answers to questioned posed"

IR - Wow, I can't believe you actually did. I hope you are aware that oujia boards are nothing more than novelties.

Jill - Historically, Ouija Boards have always been used as contact devices or tools to reach spirits. Can you prove, historically, they were not? Are you an authority on what Ouija Boards can or cannot do? I did have an encounter with a demon using a Ouija Board. It was real. I'm sorry if you don't believe it, but you weren't there. It happened in front of witnesses, IR. You believe you are the ultimate authority in life based on your personal opinion--no authority whatsoever, but God says you are not . . . He is.

IR - There is no contact made with any spiritis, good or bad.

Yes, the Bible teaches there are ways to contact the demons and God forbids it.

IR - That is another thing, why does it have to be evil? What is inherently evil about someone wanting to talk to their dead grandma, or friend?

Jill - God says He has nothing to do with tools like this. That leaves only one other power source--a weaker one--Satan

IR - If anything you think people woulf be for it. Think about it, you could talk to a dead person who could tell you that heaven and god real, bam, no more argument. But no, for some reason they are evil....

Jill - God says that when a person dies, he or she goes to heaven or hell. There is no way to contact someone who has died, according to the Bible.

Luke 16:23-26

"In hell, where he [the rich man] was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'

"But Abraham replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.' "


John D - " that possibility does not mean probability"

IR - The same can be said about your belief in god....

Jill - Except for the fact that Christianity has a great deal of eyewitness, historical and archaeological evidence to prove God is much more than possibility or probability. Produce the evidence to contradict these facts (I will list some of them if you're interested) and I will examine it. Until then, you are just a human being trying to redefine God, Satan, Heaven and Hell to fit into your personal comfort zone, and frankly, why should any of us believe you? The Bible has been proven true through countless challenges--century after century. It is the Word of God.

On what do you base your authority except your own opinion?

(Again, this is said in a normal tone of voice--no rant.)

[Brad Smith]

What are demons?

I'm a paranormal investigator. I deal with ghosts. Now, according to some so-called "deliverance ministers," there are no such things as ghosts. In their view, people die and either go to heaven or hell; and, people don't encounter "ghosts" rather demons pretending to be ghosts.

Hmmmm.

Balderdash.

There are many things that happen in this world--that neither science or religion can't answer--and those are the things we paranormal investigators handle.

Do ghosts exists? Yes. They do. They can be good or bad, just like living people. They "cross over" and often come back to check on family and friends. We've even encountered ghosts who've come back to warn loved ones about possible dangers.

It's an incredible world and a fascinating one.

[Heart2Heart]

Originally Posted by Brad Smith

What are demons?

I'm a paranormal investigator. I deal with ghosts. Now, according to some so-called "deliverance ministers," there are no such things as ghosts. In their view, people die and either go to heaven or hell; and, people don't encounter "ghosts" rather demons pretending to be ghosts.

Hmmmm.

Balderdash.

There are many things that happen in this world--that neither science or religion can't answer--and those are the things we paranormal investigators handle.

Do ghosts exists? Yes. They do. They can be good or bad, just like living people. They "cross over" and often come back to check on family and friends. We've even encountered ghosts who've come back to warn loved ones about possible dangers.

It's an incredible world and a fascinating one.

I believe there are "ghosts," but these ghosts are demons who pretend to be benevolent or malevolent toward humans.

[Heart2Heart]

Originally Posted by IncitingRiots

"You see it's not just Harry Potter, but it's Bewitched, and I Dream of Jeannie... and other such "that's not so bad" entry ways into the occult."

Oh come now, are you serious? Harry Potter, Bewitched do you really think those things could have a negative impact on people? It is nothing but sheer fantasy. That is one slippery slope you must be on to try and make an argument like that. What's next? Are you going to call ouija boards evil, despite the fact they are made by Parker Brothers?

"Author and guest speaker Jill Martin-Rische writes of her experience with another entry gate way into the occult in the Parker Brothers Ouija board game. Actual fallen angel spirits are summoned in this game and give answers to questioned posed"

Wow, I can't believe you actually did. I hope you are aware that oujia boards are nothing more than novelties. There is no contact made with any spiritis, good or bad. That is another thing, why does it have to be evil? What is inherently evil about someone wanting to talk to their dead grandma, or friend? If anything you think people woulf be for it. Think about it, you could talk to a dead person who could tell you that heaven and god real, bam, no more argument. But no, for some reason they are evil....

Wicca membership increased because of "Harry Potter." You think these movies and TV shows have little or no impact on people, you are mistaken.

[Jill]

Hello Brad--

The view of the Bible is that there is no such thing as ghosts--only demons masquerading as everyone's long lost ancestor, cousin or brother. It's one of the things they do best (proven by historical and scientific records), and it's intended to fool paranormal investigators and anyone else who might be interested. One command in the name of Jesus Christ will usually cause them to drop their forlorn and pathetic masks and respond in a not-so-nice way.

You are entitled to your opinion, but it is only that--an opinion. Unlike the biblical record, there are no ancient documents, no historical, and no archaeological findings to support it.

Btw, welcome to the forum!

Originally Posted by Brad Smith

What are demons?

I'm a paranormal investigator. I deal with ghosts. Now, according to some so-called "deliverance ministers," there are no such things as ghosts. In their view, people die and either go to heaven or hell; and, people don't encounter "ghosts" rather demons pretending to be ghosts.

Hmmmm.

Balderdash.

There are many things that happen in this world--that neither science or religion can't answer--and those are the things we paranormal investigators handle.

Do ghosts exists? Yes. They do. They can be good or bad, just like living people. They "cross over" and often come back to check on family and friends. We've even encountered ghosts who've come back to warn loved ones about possible dangers.

It's an incredible world and a fascinating one.

[IncitingRiots]

Christianity has a great deal of eyewitness,

There are plenty of eyewitness to UFO sightings and alien abductions...
You are aware that people can falsify information, right.


historical and archaeological evidence to prove God is much more than possibility or probability.

That is a really BOLD claim to make. I sure as hell hope you can site some of this "arhaeological evidence" to prove that god is ANYTHING
more than a myth.


Until then, you are just a human being trying to redefine God, Satan, Heaven and Hell to fit into your personal comfort zone,

Why would I need to redefine something I know does not exist?

and frankly, why should any of us believe you?

I don't care if you believe me. I have nothing to gain from trying to get you to believe me. Either you will figure it out on your own, or you won't. I'm not here to proseltyze.

The Bible has been proven true through countless challenges--century after century. It is the Word of God.

Really? Like what? Tell me when has the bible been proven true. I mean, I am sure that somethings are true. For the most part, however, it is just fantasy that has actually been disproven time and time again. And will continue to be disproven because it is the word of MAN and as we all know, humans are anything but perfect. You claim it to be the word of god, but if that were the case then god is wrong about something he takes credit for creating. And if that is the case then your god is not as all powerful or perfect as you make him out to be, therefore it could follow that god doesn't even exist.


On what do you base your authority except your own opinion?

There are these wonderful tools that we all have access to, it is called science and critical thinking skills. Far more credible than some book that is supposed to be the perfect written word of god, yet it was rewritten several different times (why couldnt an omnipotent being get it right the first time) and is full of completely ludicrous claims. (How could an omnipotent being be wrong about anything)

My authority has years of scientific inquiry and logic behind it. Yours has years of bloodshed, oppression and all sorts of other depravity behind it.

[Kogseeker]

I was absolutely stunned last Christmas while shopping at Toys R Us. They had blue Ouija boards for little boys and pink ones for girls. I could not believe it. Who buys ouija boards for their children?

Btw IR, dead people don't talk. If they did, then they wouldn't be dead.

[IncitingRiots]

Originally Posted by Kogseeker

Btw IR, dead people don't talk. If they did, then they wouldn't be dead. [/b]

Really, they don't...... Of course they don't, they are dead. I never claimed I thought Ouija boards were anything more than a toy. I just think it is quite ****** that people see these things as being "evil". I mean come on, really; it is made by Parker Brothers.

[Heart2Heart]

Originally Posted by IncitingRiots

Really, they don't...... Of course they don't, they are dead. I never claimed I thought Ouija boards were anything more than a toy. I just think it is quite ****** that people see these things as being "evil". I mean come on, really; it is made by Parker Brothers.

Dungeon and Dragon games are harmful as well as some video games. These classify as toys.

[IncitingRiots]

Originally Posted by Heart2Heart

Dungeon and Dragon games are harmful as well as some video games. These classify as toys.

And how exactly are they harmful?

How many people have been killed by D&D or videogames?

[Kogseeker]

Originally Posted by IncitingRiots

And how exactly are they harmful?

How many people have been killed by D&D or videogames?

Check this out
http://www.courttv.com/trials/flemon...round_ctv.html

And this
http://www.chick.com/articles/dnd.asp

[IncitingRiots]

“But Flemons' lawyer says he is schizophrenic with a psychotic obsession with fantasy role-playing games, including Dungeons & Dragons.”

The guy was schizophrenic, and the attack was brought on by that disorder. If it wasn’t D&D that influenced him it would have been something else. He was obviously not appropriately medicated and most likely would have snapped eventually. Perhaps he could have been a fan of the bible and started killing doctors who work at planned parenthood. So I am afraid I am not going to accept that as valid evidence on the grounds the murder was brought on by schizophrenia and not D&D.

“5:22 "Abstain from all appearance of evil."

Then should one abstain from reading the bible; for it contains numerous appearances of evil? Perhaps one should abstain from going to church too. Most churches have a crucifix somewhere, this depicts the murder of Christ. Surely murder is evil, therefore all appearances of it are also evil. That could include, but be limited to: The Bible, Churches, any medium containing elements of the first two. As well as many other books, movies and television shows. Good luck from trying to abstain all of those. Somewhere down the line you are going to be exposed to “appearances of evil” as well as other “graven images”

“Much of the trappings, art, figurines, and writing within D&D certainly appears evil-to say the least of it.”

Appearances can be deceiving….. I played a little D&D years ago, I never got too much into it as it required extensive use of one’s imagination to really “get into it”, and I am of the instant gratification generation more into videogames. Whenever I played the theme of the game often times was “good triumphing over evil”… I suppose there are people who might play as “evil” characters, but it is all just fantasy anyways. It is a pretty slippery slope to assume D&D will lead to all sorts of depravity. What games did Timothy McVeigh play as kid? What kind of music did he listen to? What kind of books did he read? How about Adolf Hitler, or Charles Manson? Certainly all “evil” men. All were “Christian” and all but one had a messiah complex.

“On top of that, the second issue is that the materials themselves, in many cases, contain authentic magical rituals. I can tell you this from my own experience. I was a witch high priest (Alexandrian tradition) during the period 1973-84. During some of that period (1976-80) I was also involved in hardcore Satanism. We studied and practiced and trained more than 175 people in the Craft. Our "covendom" was in Milwaukee, Wisconsin; just a short drive away from the world headquarters of TSR, the company which makes Dungeons and Dragons in Lake Geneva, WI. In the late 1970's, a couple of the game writers actually came to my wife and I as prominent "sorcerers" in the community. They wanted to make certain the rituals were authentic. For the most part, they are”

LMAO….. Right, this statement and his support for it smells like a big load of BS to me. Magic, does not exist. Besides, couldn’t any “ritual” be deemed as authentic? None will work anyways. Also, there are spells that you cast in D&D by saying something like “I’ll cast (insert spell name)”- and with the roll of the dice the DM or Dungeon Master will tell you how much damage you inflict etc. There is no drawing of pentagrams, or lighting candles or any crap like that involved. At least not in the game manuals themselves. What people do on their own is what people do on their own.

“Back in 1986, a fellow appeared on The 700 Club who was a former employee and game writer for TSR. He testified right on the show that he got into a wrangle with the management there because he saw that the rituals were too authentic and could be dangerous.”

That doesn’t mean the guy was telling the truth. Plus I can’t take that show seriously anyways. Let’s not forget that Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell blamed gays for the 9/11 attacks. (not that they carried them out but that god allowed it to happen because gay people exist)

“In fact, the Dungeon Master's Guide gives the celebrated Adolph Hitler as an example of a real historical person that exhibited D&D charisma! The values contained in the game are, at the very best, "might makes right."”

I'd like to point out that the article doesn’t provide any citation here. So I am again going to call BS.

“the cover of one D&D supplement, called Eldrich Wizardry, shows a naked woman reclining on an obviously satanic ritual altar. This tragic scene is compelling because it is really what is done in genuine satanic groups all over the nation.2 It is extremely sado-masochistic because the fate of such a woman is to be either raped, gang-raped, tortured or sacrificed to a demon god. This kind of imagery can be very provocative and seductive to adolescent males or even adults.”

I find it funny that this quotes The Satanic Bible. The quote it is referring to is one in which LaVey describes what the myth of a Black Mass was. It is not a “how to” for performing a ritual. Also, there is no rape, murder or torture. That is reminiscent of the Satanic Panic during the late 80’s, involving faked cases of Satanic Ritual Abuse. All of the reported cases of SRA were found to be hoaxes. This article gets more misleading and less credible as one reads through it.

“Additionally, male characters in the game often try to seduce female characters”

1.It is a game. 2. If it weren’t for sexual intercourse our species would die off. Sex is natural, sex is fun most of all sex is necessary!
I could continue to critique and rip this article to shreds line by line, but I have homework to attend to. This article is extremely inaccurate, misleading and biased. It is featured on a website whose motto is: Publishing gospel tracts and equipping Christians for evangelism for over 40 years.

Perhaps you would like to try again?

[MacG]

Jill,

When demons talk to you through tools of the occult like Ouija Boards or digital recorders

Ouija, sure, but how do digtial recorders come into play?

Blessings,

MacG

[Kogseeker]

Satans most craftiest work yet! Convencing his own followers he doesn't exist!

[IncitingRiots]

That is pathetic..... I rip your argument to shreds and all you can respond with is some cliche statement. I sure hope that isn't your attempt at a red herring.

[Kogseeker]

Originally Posted by IncitingRiots

That is pathetic..... I rip your argument to shreds and all you can respond with is some cliche statement. I sure hope that isn't your attempt at a red herring.

You gave your opinion, I hardly call that ripping to shreds!

[Heart2Heart]

Digital recorders are the new Ouija Board. People ask a demon a question and then hit the record button. You may not hear an answer to the question at the time it's asked in the room but later, when the recording is played back, an answer can often be heard. It's on digital recorders that reliable sources have documented demons telling humans they want to possess them.

Originally Posted by MacG

Jill,


Ouija, sure, but how do digtial recorders come into play?

Blessings,

MacG

bumpity bump bump

[Heart2Heart]

Originally Posted by Heart2Heart

Digital recorders are the new Ouija Board. People ask a demon a question and then hit the record button. You may not hear an answer to the question at the time it's asked in the room but later, when the recording is played back, an answer can often be heard. It's on digital recorders that reliable sources have documented demons telling humans they want to possess them.



bumpity bump bump

Hi MacG,

I didn't write about the digital recorders. I don't know who wrote this. The only part I wrote was, "bumpity bump bump."

[Parepidemos]

Originally Posted by IncitingRiots

Scientists are not desperate to find life on other planets. If they were it would certainly have nothing to do with disproving scripture. The job of science is to find out the unknown. It really has no stake in trying to disprove god. If anything it is the religions who would seek to disprove science. Just to let you know, microorganisms have been found on mars. While not as advanced as human life, it is still a life form none the less.

Hi IR, where did you get the information that microorganisms have been found on Mars? I follow the scientific explorations there in print, TV and Internet and am not aware of any actual discoveries. The last I heard, the experiments there have shown strong evidence for the existence of liquid water on the planet's surface at times in the past. I have not seen or heard of any experimental evidence that points to the existence of microbal life - current or fossilized.

[MacG]

Originally Posted by Heart2Heart

Hi MacG,

I didn't write about the digital recorders. I don't know who wrote this. The only part I wrote was, "bumpity bump bump."

H2H,

What was the Bumpity bump bump?

How did 2 post in the same window?

MacG

[Heart2Heart]

Originally Posted by MacG

H2H,

What was the Bumpity bump bump?

How did 2 post in the same window?

MacG

The purpose of the bumpity bump bump was so the thread did not get buried or get unnoticed.

I don't know how two posts got in the same window. Whoever wrote it did a good job of responding about the digital recording. By the way, I don't know anything about digital recording and Ouija board. I didn't know digital recording exists for the Ouija board.

[Jill]

Digital recorders are the new Ouija Board. People ask a demon a question and then hit the record button. You may not hear an answer to the question at the time it's asked in the room but later, when the recording is played back, an answer can often be heard. It's on digital recorders that reliable sources have documented demons telling humans they want to possess them.

I have to admit I wrote this. I don't know where on the board--can't seem to find it right now--it's late here.

Thanks, MacG.

[johnd]

I was under the impression that genies were demon spirits typically cursed to some form of imprisonment and by granting X number of wishes able to be freed by certain mortals who stumbled upon them.

Mankind has a fertile imagination. But some of the details are a bit too familiar for man to have come up with alone.

As to the shows I Dream of Jeannie and Bewitched... I can watch the shows without being vexed, hexed, or sexed... the latter of which they did to JohnD as a small boy who had crushes on the female landscape... ahem... that's another matter long long ago...

BUT... the subject matter, once the cuteness and the silliness and the humor is removed is witchcraft and magic spells and incantations... all pitched in a friendly way...

What about equal time for the friendly neighborhood satanist (like Mr. Riot here) or how about the happy molester who is witty and is nice and rescues animals? The drug pusher knows to drum up business he must first present himself as friendly, a-ok, generous...

This is symptomatic of the secular humanism adopted before the 1960's but well on its way to being enforced by then... why not equal time for every belief? After all... it's only fair...

It's high time we called thinking like this what it is: CRAZY!