Do you see "Salvation" as a "means" or an "end"

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

Just curious how different people view the subject of "SALVATION" or "BEING SAVED"

Is it a means, or an end? Please explain either way.

Thanks.

[nrajeff]

It is an interesting question, Fig. I think it might be plausible to see it either way, or both. My first thought is that for me personally, being saved is more a means than an end because I want to be saved from the bad effects of sin and death so that I can become what God wants me to, and knows I have the potential to, become.

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

It is an interesting question, Fig. I think it might be plausible to see it either way, or both. My first thought is that for me personally, being saved is more a means than an end because I want to be saved from the bad effects of sin and death so that I can become what God wants me to, and knows I have the potential to, become.

Thanks, Jeff.

I can see your point.

For me, viewing it from the present, Salvation is a destiny, and an end. But of course once arriving at an end, it then becomes a means to other ends beyond that.

The Gospel is the means.

[nrajeff]

Also a valid way of looking at it, IMO. As I said, it's an interesting question.

[Russ]

Also a valid way of looking at it, IMO. As I said, it's an interesting question.

Now that we have the LDS view on the means of salvation, just what is salvation?

Does it include the belief that Mormons become Gods themselves and create their own worlds?

Does it include the belief that Mormons will populate said worlds with their own offspring born of a celestial wife.... or more?



http://www.mormondoctrine.net/images/gods_over_other_planets.jpg.jpg


Scanned copy. Achieving a Celestial Marriage, Church Education System, Department of Seminaries and Ins***utes of Religion, Salt Lake City, Utah 1976, 1992, pg. 132. Full page here (http://www.mormondoctrine.net/images/gods_over_other_planets_full_page.jpg).

Eternal Progression is my favorite topic.

It is, in LDSism, the answer to the question, "What happens after I die?"

It is, in LDSism, "eternal life."

It is, in LDSism, "salvation."

[aaronshaf]

GREAT QUESTION, FBT!

I worked on the Theopedia article for "Salvation (http://www.theopedia.com/Salvation)" and this is what we came up with:


Man's condition

All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God (Rom 3:23). Apart from Christ, we are "weak" and "ungodly" (Rom 5:6), "sinners" (Rom 5:8), under the coming "wrath of God" (Rom 5:9), "enemies" of God in need of "reconciliation" and salvation (Rom 5:10), under the "judgment" and reigning "death" that followed Adam's "one tresp***" (Rom 5:16-17), "enslaved to sin" (Rom 6:6, 16-17, 20), presenting our "members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness leading to more lawlessness" (Rom 6:19), "of the flesh, sold under sin" (Rom 7:14), having "nothing good" dwelling in our flesh (Rom 7:18), having bodies "of death" in need of deliverance (Rom 7:24), "hostile to God" (Rom 8:7), the fruit and wages of which are death and condemnation (Rom 6:21, 23; 8:1).

Coming judgment

"It is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment." (Hebrews 9:27) Apart from Christ, we are "by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind." (Ephesians 2:3) Those with "hard and impenitent heart[s]... are storing up wrath for [themselves] on the day of wrath when God's righteous judgment will be revealed." (Romans 2:5) "[F]or those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury. There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil..." (2:8-9) "They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might..." (2 Thessalonians 1:9)

Initial salvation

Initial salvation refers to the event of a person's conversion. If you repent of your sin and turn in faith to Christ as Lord and Savior, your sins are immediately forgiven, your fight of faith has begun, and your future in Christ is secured forever. "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved." (Romans 10:13) "He saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life." (***us 3:3-7)

Progressive salvation

Progressive salvation refers to the journey of a believer between conversion and death. It is the only path that leads to eternal life (Romans 6:20-23), and is walked by faith alone, in the power of the Holy Spirit (Romans 8, Galatians 3:2-5). It contains bumps and struggles and setbacks, but is marked by growth in love for others and for God. It involves a fight of faith, a striving for peace and holiness (Hebrews 12:14, 1 John 1:9), and a reoccurring approach of the throne of grace (Hebrews 4:16). "[O]ur Lord Jesus Christ... will sustain you to the end, guiltless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. God is faithful, by whom you were called into the fellowship of his Son, Jesus Christ our Lord." (1 Corinthians 1:7-9)

Final salvation

Final salvation refers to the event of God saving his people at the final judgment, the great divide between sheep and goats, wherein sheep are identified by their work of faith and labor of love and steadfastness of hope in the Lord Jesus Christ, and accepted on the ground of their union with Christ, the righteous subs***ute.

As you can see, we haven't really fleshed out the last category as much as we could yet.

[HickPreacher]

No doubt Salvation is an end, but powerfully a means.

I think the following refers to Salvation as a means-

Php 2:
12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

I view the above to be a teaching about how saved people are to put to work or apply the power of the salvation that they have already secured.

Because of p***ages like this-

1 John 4:
4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

To me this means that the salvation given us comes with the gift of the spirit which comes with the power to do works and have power to do things.

Jesus spoke of this kind of empowerment in the Gospel of John-

John 14: 10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works’ sake.
12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.


Getting Saved-- gives the Saved Power-- including power to do good works This is because of the indwelling of the Spirit in the believer.

1 Cor 1:
18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

Eph 2:
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

No doubt Salvation is an end, but powerfully a means.

I think the following refers to Salvation as a means-

Php 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

I view the above to be a teaching about how saved people are to put to work or apply the power of the salvation that they have already secured.

Interesting interpretation, thanks.

What do you make of 1 Peter 1:9 which says:
Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

And 1 Thes 5:8-9
8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,




Because of p***ages like this-

1 John 4:

To me this means that the salvation given us comes with the gift of the spirit which comes with the power to do works and have power to do things.

Jesus spoke of this kind of empowerment in the Gospel of John-

John 14: 10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works’ sake.
12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.


Getting Saved-- gives the Saved Power-- including power to do good works This is because of the indwelling of the Spirit in the believer.

1 Cor 1:

Eph 2:

Thanks, again.

From my view, the power to do good works comes from faith in Christ. Not because of already having obtained salvation.

As I see it, the principle of Faith must precede obtaining salvation. And faith must be tested and tried preceding the obtaining of salvation.

[James Banta]

Interesting interpretation, thanks.

From my view, the power to do good works comes from faith in Christ. Not because of already having obtained salvation.

As I see it, the principle of Faith must precede obtaining salvation. And faith must be tested and tried preceding the obtaining of salvation.

God must test faith, right? Why? Isn't He all knowing? Can't he read the hearts of all people? What is it then that Jesus says the Eternal Life is something a believer has? What about the Holy Spirit though the Apostle Paul teaching that Salvation is a matter of His grace though a faith, a faith God also provides? What of the Apostle John saying that he writes to those who believe in Jesus so we can know we have Eternal Life..

It must be that Eternal Life and saved mean something else to you that it does to a Christian.. What does mormonism say about these terms..

Is Salvation anything more than universal resurrection?

Isn't Eternal life Exaltation in Celestial Kingdom?

These terms are not even defined on lds.org in the Bible dictionary there..

I was taught as a young mormon that slavation espeially salvation by grace alone is nothing more than universal resurrection, and that Eternal Life is the kind of life God lives.. Yet here are these terms in the Bible. Eternal life being given through faith in Jesus, and Salvation a product of His grace.. Someone is changing the meaning of words to suite their own preverted doctrines.. Isn't that the way it appears? IHS jim

[Father_JD]

Just curious how different people view the subject of "SALVATION" or "BEING SAVED"

Is it a means, or an end? Please explain either way.

Thanks.


Let me guess YOUR thoughts, figgie:

It's merely the beginning (Mormonism having re-defined "salvation" to mean "resurrection") 'cause everyone that has ever lived is "saved"...just a stepping stone to "exaltation", your imagined time of "godhood".

Correct? ;)

[Russianwolfe]

God must test faith, right? Why? Isn't He all knowing? Can't he read the hearts of all people?

It is not God's faith that is being tested. When our faith is tested we learn something about ourselves. As you point out God is all knowing; but we are not. When God commanded Abraham to sacrifice Isaac, Abraham has something to learn about Abraham, not God.

Marvin

[Father_JD]

It is not God's faith that is being tested. When our faith is tested we learn something about ourselves. As you point out God is all knowing; but we are not. When God commanded Abraham to sacrifice Isaac, Abraham has something to learn about Abraham, not God.

Marvin

Wow. It's rare that a Mo gets anything biblical RIGHT! Congrats. :D

[James Banta]

It is not God's faith that is being tested. When our faith is tested we learn something about ourselves. As you point out God is all knowing; but we are not. When God commanded Abraham to sacrifice Isaac, Abraham has something to learn about Abraham, not God.

Marvin

You misunderstood me... I see you saying that God need to test our faith so He will know how and if we will respond and follow Him..Is that right? Did God learn about Abraham when he obeyed God and bound Isaac to the alter and lifted the knife to kill him? What did God learn? How about ***? When God cleared Satan to test Him did God learn anything about ***? I really want to know these things.. IHS jim

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

It is not God's faith that is being tested. When our faith is tested we learn something about ourselves. As you point out God is all knowing; but we are not. When God commanded Abraham to sacrifice Isaac, Abraham has something to learn about Abraham, not God.

Marvin

Very well put, Marvin. I agree. The tests of life are for OUR sake. Not God's.

[James Banta]

Very well put, Marvin. I agree. The tests of life are for OUR sake. Not God's.

And Fig, if God doesn't need to test us then why isn't salvation into His very best blessing in heaven guaranteed here and now? IHS jim

[Russianwolfe]

You misunderstood me... I see you saying that God need to test our faith so He will know how and if we will respond and follow Him..Is that right? Did God learn about Abraham when he obeyed God and bound Isaac to the alter and lifted the knife to kill him? What did God learn? How about ***? When God cleared Satan to test Him did God learn anything about ***? I really want to know these things.. IHS jim

You missed my point completely. Reread for comprehension this time.

Marvin

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

And Fig, if God doesn't need to test us then why isn't salvation into His very best blessing in heaven guaranteed here and now? IHS jim

That would not be good for us. The struggle between good and evil must be experienced by us individuals. That is part of God's Plan.

You might ask YOURSELF: What's the purpose of life if you were to know for sure that your destination is guaranteed hell and there's no hope for you. Or what's the purpose of life if you already know that your destination is guaranteed heaven no matter what you do?

[nrajeff]

Would it really be a good idea for the college to give you the degree first, and then tell you to start taking some cl***es after?

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

Would it really be a good idea for the college to give you the degree first, and then tell you to start taking some cl***es after?

An excellent example, Jeff.

[Billyray]

An excellent example, Jeff.
Proverbs 14:12 "There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death."

Isaiah 55
8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts."

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

Proverbs 14:12 "There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death."

Isaiah 55
8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts."

So, God first hands you a diploma, and then says "now go study". And that is God's way?

[Father_JD]

So, God first hands you a diploma, and then says "now go study". And that is God's way?


Rom 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I d.


Rom 9:14 ¶ What shall we say then? unrighteousness with God? God forbid.


[I]Figster says the God of the Bible is "unrighteous" and this is why he prefers JS' IDOL.

Rom 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have comp***ion on whom I will have comp***ion.


Rom 9:16 So then [it is] not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

[nrajeff]

OK, then, FJD, I want you to repay me, now, the $1000 that I am going to lend you in 10 years. 'Cause that's really the way it works, right? :D

[James Banta]

It is not God's faith that is being tested. When our faith is tested we learn something about ourselves. As you point out God is all knowing; but we are not. When God commanded Abraham to sacrifice Isaac, Abraham has something to learn about Abraham, not God.

Marvin

Saving faith is a gift from God.. It isn't our faith at all it is a faith He gives us therefore it is His faith.. Did God command Abraham so he could learn a lesson or did God give that command for our sake? It is an interesting question.. See Abraham was not justified in this obedience to God but in his trust in God completely..


Romans 4:3
For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
The again His obedience was a wonderful example to the Church about being obedient and trusting God.. But since you agree that God knew how Abraham was going to react to His commandment in offering Issac. The command wasn't to make Him righteous in God's eyes. And I see your point as well Abraham learned that He could always trust the Lord is all circumstances.. Have we learned that same lesson? I know for me I am like the father of the Child that Jesus raises off His sick bed saying:

Mark 9:24
And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.
If that doesn't describe you at lease some of the time I would be impressed. IHS jim

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

Rom 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I d.


Rom 9:14 ¶ What shall we say then? unrighteousness with God? God forbid.


[I]Figster says the God of the Bible is "unrighteous" and this is why he prefers JS' IDOL.

Rom 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have comp***ion on whom I will have comp***ion.


Rom 9:16 So then [it is] not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

FJD admits that is IS God's way to give the diploma before any studying is done.

[James Banta]

Would it really be a good idea for the college to give you the degree first, and then tell you to start taking some cl***es after?



But Jeff that is just what God tell us though the Apostle John. He told us that we can KNOW we have Eternal Life now..

1 John 5:13
These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

It's your choice you can believe the scripture or turn away from it.. You seem to have deiced that it is wrong, you appear to have turned away from it.. IHS jim

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

But Jeff that is just what God tell us though the Apostle John. He told us that we can KNOW we have Eternal Life now..

1 John 5:13
These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

It's your choice you can believe the scripture or turn away from it.. You seem to have deiced that it is wrong, you appear to have turned away from it.. IHS jim

Does that mean that you can "KNOW NOW", or that you "GET IT NOW"? (It being Eternal Life).

If you have eternal life now, I would suggest that you get read for a long long life, and marry many wives. Cause you are already immortal, apparently.

[James Banta]

You missed my point completely. Reread for comprehension this time.

Marvin


I am sorry you either don't understand my response or you just want to nicely insult me but I see my post as following the conversation completely.. Maybe you have me confused with Bert... IHS jim

[Father_JD]

OK, then, FJD, I want you to repay me, now, the $1000 that I am going to lend you in 10 years. 'Cause that's really the way it works, right? :D

No, that's NOT how election or soteriology works, jeff. You know better by now...or should. ;)

[Father_JD]

FJD admits that is IS God's way to give the diploma before any studying is done.


God elects, NOT according to works. Why didn't you engage Paul's words, fig?

Is it because you can't gainsay him? :rolleyes:

[Father_JD]

Originally Posted by James Banta
But Jeff that is just what God tell us though the Apostle John. He told us that we can KNOW we have Eternal Life now..

1 John 5:13
These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.


It's your choice you can believe the scripture or turn away from it.. You seem to have deiced that it is wrong, you appear to have turned away from it.. IHS jim


Does that mean that you can "KNOW NOW", or that you "GET IT NOW"? (It being Eternal Life).

Why such difficulty in understanding plain Englsh, Fig?? Is it because you don't want to understand it? It's all written in the PRESENT TENSE, that one can know NOW THAT ONE HAS ETERNAL LIFE IN CHRIST...John is NOT referring to physical life. Why so obdurate, Fig? :eek:


If you have eternal life now, I would suggest that you get read for a long long life, and marry many wives. Cause you are already immortal, apparently.

See above. It's truly amazing that you just can't understand the above scripture because your indoctrination prevents you from understanding the bible within it's own CONTEXT.:rolleyes:

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by James Banta
But Jeff that is just what God tell us though the Apostle John. He told us that we can KNOW we have Eternal Life now..

1 John 5:13
These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.


It's your choice you can believe the scripture or turn away from it.. You seem to have deiced that it is wrong, you appear to have turned away from it.. IHS jim



Why such difficulty in understanding plain Englsh, Fig?? Is it because you don't want to understand it? It's all written in the PRESENT TENSE, that one can know NOW THAT ONE HAS ETERNAL LIFE IN CHRIST...John is NOT referring to physical life. Why so obdurate, Fig? :eek:



See above. It's truly amazing that you just can't understand the above scripture because your indoctrination prevents you from understanding the bible within it's own CONTEXT.:rolleyes:

Yes JD his comments about being immortal were very sad.. We quote direct from the Scripture and it is rejected as foolishness. Know what I am going to agree with them. They see the things we hold as sacred and it is foolishness. The Bibles says so at least for then it is..


1 Cor 1:8
For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.It is hard for me to understand his contempt for scripture.. I can only think that these are p***ages that have no authority to him because I have either taken them out of context or they were mistranslated.. Remember to pray for them that the Holy Spirit can open his eyes to the Jesus I have had your help in lifting up.. IHS jim

[James Banta]

Does that mean that you can "KNOW NOW", or that you "GET IT NOW"? (It being Eternal Life).

If you have eternal life now, I would suggest that you get read for a long long life, and marry many wives. Cause you are already immortal, apparently.

Understand Fig, I DIDN'T WRITE THAT TEXT.. It was given to the Apostle John by God.. It isn't so hard that an intelligent man like you can't understand it.. John wrote what He wrote so that those that believe in Jesus can Know that they HAVE Eternal Life... They can know, and those that believe can have it NOW.. That is what it said.. A doctrine that mormonism completely rejects.. IHS jim

[nrajeff]

No, that's NOT how election or soteriology works, jeff. You know better by now...or should. ;)

---Hey, there is a lot that I SHOULD know that I don't. Anyway, if the formula goes "Saved first, meeting the conditions for it later," then why not repay that 1000 now, which will "cause" me to lend it to you 10 years from now? I mean, if "cart before horse" is the REAL way things work.... :)

[Father_JD]

---Hey, there is a lot that I SHOULD know that I don't. Anyway, if the formula goes "Saved first, meeting the conditions for it later," then why not repay that 1000 now, which will "cause" me to lend it to you 10 years from now? I mean, if "cart before horse" is the REAL way things work.... :)


As long as you think or believe there cons***utes "meeting the conditions for it later", you will never understand Biblical soteriology, jeff. :(

[Father_JD]

Yes JD his comments about being immortal were very sad.. We quote direct from the Scripture and it is rejected as foolishness. Know what I am going to agree with them. They see the things we hold as sacred and it is foolishness. The Bibles says so at least for then it is..


1 Cor 1:8
For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.It is hard for me to understand his contempt for scripture.. I can only think that these are p***ages that have no authority to him because I have either taken them out of context or they were mistranslated.. Remember to pray for them that the Holy Spirit can open his eyes to the Jesus I have had your help in lifting up.. IHS jim


That's the language barrier in a nutshell...Mormon redefinition of words such as making "eternal life" merely mean physical continuity, and not understanding the term is a synonym for SALVATION!! :rolleyes:

[nrajeff]

.Mormon redefinition of words such as making "eternal life" merely mean physical continuity, and not understanding the term is a synonym for SALVATION!! :rolleyes:

--Huh? LDS believe that eternal life means merely physical continuity? Since when?

http://eom.byu.edu/index.php/Eternal_Life

"To Latter-day Saints the phrase "eternal life" refers not only to everlasting life but also and more particularly to the quality of life God lives. Eternal life is available to all people who have lived on earth who accept this gift by their obedience to God's laws and ordinances.

God's work, and the source of his glory, is bringing to p*** "the immortality and eternal life" of his children (Moses 1:39). In other words, God works to enable his children's return to his presence so that they may both live with him and live as he lives."

[Father_JD]

jeff..."Eternal Life" isn't a "quality of life God lives". IT'S SALVATION as defined from the Bible.

[nrajeff]

jeff..."Eternal Life" isn't a "quality of life God lives". IT'S SALVATION as defined from the Bible.

---Not necessarily so. The requirements for eternal life are higher than the ones for just getting saved. Do a search for the verses that mention requirements for each.

And you didn't answer my questions:

LDS believe that eternal life means merely physical continuity? Since when?

[Father_JD]

---Not necessarily so. The requirements for eternal life are higher than the ones for just getting saved. Do a search for the verses that mention requirements for each.

And you didn't answer my questions:

LDS believe that eternal life means merely physical continuity? Since when?

I repeat, "Eternal Life" is a synonym for SALVATION, jeff. What are the "requirements", jeff??

BELIEVE on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be SAVED.

According to the Figmeister, "Eternal Life" means physical continuity, so take it up with him. ;)

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

God elects, NOT according to works. Why didn't you engage Paul's words, fig?

Is it because you can't gainsay him? :rolleyes:

Paul's words, as you interpret them, make a mockery of God.

Use the gl***es of common sense to read Paul, and then you will see that God is not the tyrant you paint Him to be.

[nrajeff]

Paul's words, as you interpret them, make a mockery of God. Use the gl***es of common sense to read Paul, and then you will see that God is not the tyrant you paint Him to be.

----If only people would read ALL scriptures using common sense--especially Genesis, Exodus, the gospels, and what is attributed to Paul. People's idea about who and what God is, and about His personality and sense of fairness, would change, I think.

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

----If only people would read ALL scriptures using common sense--especially Genesis, Exodus, the gospels, and what is attributed to Paul. People's idea about who and what God is, and about His personality and sense of fairness, would change, I think.

Image if God actually instilled in each of us a conscience that innately tells us what is fair and just and good and right, and this conscience turns out to be lying to us.

[Father_JD]

Image if God actually instilled in each of us a conscience that innately tells us what is fair and just and good and right, and this conscience turns out to be lying to us.

In the case of the Mormon "conscience", it IS lying to you, fig. :eek:

[Father_JD]

Paul's words, as you interpret them, make a mockery of God.

Use the gl***es of common sense to read Paul, and then you will see that God is not the tyrant you paint Him to be.

Well, by golly, Fig...WHY don't you do a line by line exegesis and show me just how my "interpretation" is incorrect instead of doing the Mormon "thing" and replying, "Nuh-uh"??

And NOW you're relying on the "arm of flesh", i.e. "common sense"?

Since when?

Duh. Try CONTEXTUAL READING...something you Mos absolutely LOATHE, but you just might learn that YOU were in error. :rolleyes:

[Father_JD]

----If only people would read ALL scriptures using common sense--especially Genesis, Exodus, the gospels, and what is attributed to Paul. People's idea about who and what God is, and about His personality and sense of fairness, would change, I think.

Jeff...please take your own advice and read ALL Biblical scripture. Not once has any Mormon here EVER come up with some kind of legitimate "interpretation" of Romans 9.

Wanna know why?















YOU CAN NOT. :p

[nrajeff]

Jeff...please take your own advice and read ALL Biblical scripture.
--Oh, I have read the entire Bible, cover to cover, at least once. My advice (wish) was that people would read it using common sense, so they wouldn't jump to unwarranted conclusions in their exegesis.


Not once has any Mormon here EVER come up with some kind of legitimate "interpretation" of Romans 9.
---_At least not in your unbiased opinion, right?

Wanna know why?
---I already KNOW why YOU "feeel" that none has. So save yer breath.

[Father_JD]

Originally Posted by Father_JD View Post
Jeff...please take your own advice and read ALL Biblical scripture.


--Oh, I have read the entire Bible, cover to cover, at least once. My advice (wish) was that people would read it using common sense, so they wouldn't jump to unwarranted conclusions in their exegesis.

Wow, jeff. Sorry, but I'm quite underwhelmed. You've read the entire Bible, "at least once". What do you think you gained by just one reading? :rolleyes:
I just wish you wouldn't jump to unwarranted conclusions in your EISEGESIS of the Biblical text...unconsciously superimposing Mormon meaning onto it ALL the time.

Quote:
Not once has any Mormon here EVER come up with some kind of legitimate "interpretation" of Romans 9.


---_At least not in your unbiased opinion, right?


NO interpretation, jeff. PERIOD! :o Still waiting...:rolleyes:


Quote:
Wanna know why?



---I already KNOW why YOU "feeel" that none has. So save yer breath.


Still waiting for you to belly up to the bar, jeff. ;)

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

Well, by golly, Fig...WHY don't you do a line by line exegesis and show me just how my "interpretation" is incorrect instead of doing the Mormon "thing" and replying, "Nuh-uh"??

And NOW you're relying on the "arm of flesh", i.e. "common sense"?

Since when?

Duh. Try CONTEXTUAL READING...something you Mos absolutely LOATHE, but you just might learn that YOU were in error. :rolleyes:

You call your own conscience, that God placed in you, the "arm of flesh"?

Rather, I think God place our consciences in us for a reason, and they are to guide us to the truth. They aren't the arm of flesh, unless you think God DOES have a body of flesh after all. :D

[Father_JD]

You call your own conscience, that God placed in you, the "arm of flesh"?

Rather, I think God place our consciences in us for a reason, and they are to guide us to the truth. They aren't the arm of flesh, unless you think God DOES have a body of flesh after all. :D

No, I was referring to "common sense"...and just because we are created "Imago Dei" (whereas Mormonism is "imago ****") and do possess "consciences" doesn't mean they're trustworthy because of the FALL, Fig.

"The heart is desperately WICKED, who can know it?"

You'll never understand the depth of human depravity until you understand, as King David did, that we're "born into sin" and by nature are spirtually DEAD...not just inconvenienced or a little incompacitated, but DEAD.

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

No, I was referring to "common sense"...and just because we are created "Imago Dei" (whereas Mormonism is "imago ****") and do possess "consciences" doesn't mean they're trustworthy because of the FALL, Fig.

So your conscience is not trustworthy because of the fall? (Unless you are a member of the bourgeois regenerate Cl*** and Caste, I guess.)



"The heart is desperately WICKED, who can know it?"

You'll never understand the depth of human depravity until you understand, as King David did, that we're "born into sin" and by nature are spirtually DEAD...not just inconvenienced or a little incompacitated, but DEAD.

I understand your apparent loathing of and contempt for man. We've been over this before. Babies are not born sinful. They are born into a state where they are subject to temptation and sin.

That does not mean Mankind brings filthiness with him at birth.

[Father_JD]

Originally Posted by Father_JD
No, I was referring to "common sense"...and just because we are created "Imago Dei" (whereas Mormonism is "imago ****") and do possess "consciences" doesn't mean they're trustworthy because of the FALL, Fig.


So your conscience is not trustworthy because of the fall? (Unless you are a member of the bourgeois regenerate Cl*** and Caste, I guess.)

What does scripture say, Fig?? "The heart is desperately wicked, who can know it?" Also..."There are ways that seem right to a man but are the ways of death". Only the Redeemed have hope with a regenerate "conscience" which is still held accountable to God's OBJECTIVE STANDARDS as recorded in the Bible, Fig.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Father_JD
"The heart is desperately WICKED, who can know it?"

You'll never understand the depth of human depravity until you understand, as King David did, that we're "born into sin" and by nature are spirtually DEAD...not just inconvenienced or a little incompacitated, but DEAD.


I understand your apparent loathing of and contempt for man. We've been over this before. Babies are not born sinful. They are born into a state where they are subject to temptation and sin.

That does not mean Mankind brings filthiness with him at birth.


You OVERestimate our condition which scripture declares us to be CHILDREN OF WRATH. Your argument isn't with me, but with GOD HIMSELF and HIS WORD, Fig. You haven't yet begun to wrestle with scripture which resists Mormon twisting. David said, "born IN SIN". We are born with sinful natures and all of your quasi-Pelagian posing doesn't begin to address the reality of SIN or our sinful NATURES FROM BIRTH. :eek:

[nrajeff]

"The heart is desperately WICKED, who can know it?"


--The AOL takes that statement, and interprets it as "What your spirit is telling you is a witness from the Holy Spirit, is wicked and unreliable, but your MIND--with the help of the "right" commentaries--CAN be trusted all the time." Which is of course the height of folly, given the track record of people's minds and the "scholars" who molded those minds. Face it, FJD--you left what you now feel to be a cult, and joined a cult of another type: the cult of the god of academia

[Father_JD]

--The AOL takes that statement, and interprets it as "What your spirit is telling you is a witness from the Holy Spirit, is wicked and unreliable, but your MIND--with the help of the "right" commentaries--CAN be trusted all the time." Which is of course the height of folly, given the track record of people's minds and the "scholars" who molded those minds. Face it, FJD--you left what you now feel to be a cult, and joined a cult of another type: the cult of the god of academia


C'mon, jeff...I would hope you could transcend a typical Mormon "straw-man" argument.

You have NO objective MEANS to know whether your "witness from the Holy Spirit" is really from God because you've rejected the OBJECTIVE Word of God by which to judge your warm-fuzzies.

You've also equivocated from "conscience" to now one of epistimology. :eek:

[nrajeff]

C'mon, jeff...I would hope you could transcend a typical Mormon "straw-man" argument.
---I would, if you could demonstrate that it really is a straw man. Too many Evangelicals are falling for the idea that of the heart and the Smithsonian, the heart is the less reliable.


You have NO objective MEANS to know whether your "witness from the Holy Spirit" is really from God because you've rejected the OBJECTIVE Word of God by which to judge your warm-fuzzies.
---"The objective word of God"? Oh, that sounds like the makings of a fun debate.


You've also equivocated from "conscience" to now one of epistimology.
--I think true things can be known via communication to one's spirit just as surely as they can be known via going to college and reading FF Bruce. It's epistemology either way. The question is which way is really more reliable? Which has the better track record?

[Father_JD]

---I would, if you could demonstrate that it really is a straw man. Too many Evangelicals are falling for the idea that of the heart and the Smithsonian, the heart is the less reliable.

The heart IS less reliable...and that IS what scripture teaches, jeff. :rolleyes:



---"The objective word of God"? Oh, that sounds like the makings of a fun debate.

It's a helluva more objective than the Mormon warm-fuzzy, jeff. :D



--I think true things can be known via communication to one's spirit just as surely as they can be known via going to college and reading FF Bruce. It's epistemology either way. The question is which way is really more reliable? Which has the better track record?


The question is, jeff:

Does this "communication to one's spirit" TESTABLE? Does it conform to the BIBLE?

You put the cart before the horse. Instead of judging Mormon doctrine BY the Bible, you judge the Bible BY the warm-fuzzy.

That's just not a "better track record" by any means. :p

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

Does this "communication to one's spirit" TESTABLE? Does it conform to the BIBLE?

You put the cart before the horse. Instead of judging Mormon doctrine BY the Bible, you judge the Bible BY the warm-fuzzy.

That's just not a "better track record" by any means. :p

How do you propose to test a testimony? Compare it to academia and scholarship?

Seems like a whole lot of relying on the arm of flesh going on in your church of academia, FJD. :D

[James Banta]

How do you propose to test a testimony? Compare it to academia and scholarship?

Seems like a whole lot of relying on the arm of flesh going on in your church of academia, FJD. :D

You have it all wrong we don't even doubt your feelings about the church.. They are not open to discussion.. The question is about evidence for the peoples the BofM said lived in these lands at the time of Jesus.. The question is can a man who gave false prophecy be held as a reliable source for God to speak though?

The answers are, there is no evidence for a people existence such as the BofM describes.. Jerusalem was destroyed three times and yet we know where it was because we know where it is.. This is not the case for one city mentioned in the BofM.. Duet 18 commands that a prophets messages are to be tested, when we test the words that Smith said he received from God his message failed. Remember Hiram Page and Oliver Cowdery went to Toronto on this mission, but they failed to receive the promises that Smith pronounced for doing so.. and what did he say?


"Some revelations are of God: some revelations are of man: and some revelations are of the devil." (An Address To All Believers In Christ, 1887, pp.30-31).
From this it can clearly be seen that Smith couldn't even tell if his "revelations" were from his own heart or even from Satan.. This is the evidence we can see and it points to the fact that your testimony is misplaced.. But you are right your feeling belong to you.. All Christians can do is tell you.. Jesus is God, He came here died for you and rose again to insure your place with Him eternally.. We lift Jesus as the MIGHTY GOD, THE EVERLASTING FATHER, THE PRINCE OF PEACE.. You can always use your freedom and choose to believe a liar like Joseph Smith and turn to his false gods and away from the LORD of Heaven and earth..

I haven't attacked your testimony here.. Only the evidence that supports that testimony. If you wish to go on believing that the Easter bunny brings candy to your children every Easter Sunday I can stop you. All I can do is show you that if you don't place their goodies around the house they won't be there Easter morning..
IHS jim

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

You have it all wrong we don't even doubt your feelings about the church.. They are not open to discussion.. The question is about evidence for the peoples the BofM said lived in these lands at the time of Jesus.. The question is can a man who gave false prophecy be held as a reliable source for God to speak though?

The only evidence I really need to believe in the restored Gospel, is God's gift of the Holy Ghost, and of a testimony, and my own change of heart.

Those 3 undeniable gifts pretty much have me convinced.

[James Banta]

The only evidence I really need to believe in the restored Gospel, is God's gift of the Holy Ghost, and of a testimony, and my own change of heart.

Those 3 undeniable gifts pretty much have me convinced.

And since others get thosem same things in other sources like Judaism, and even Islam.. They must be just as filled with truth as mormonism.. FEELINGS DON'T CHANGE ERROR INTO TRUTH.. IHS jim

[Father_JD]

How do you propose to test a testimony? Compare it to academia and scholarship?

Compare it to the clear, OBJECTIVE teaching of the Bible, Fig. All you've got here is just another tired canard that Mormons have the "spirit" of the Mormon deity telling them what's true and the Christian is DEVOID of the spirit, relying on "academia and scholarship".

As they like to say here in Texas:

That dog won't hunt. :rolleyes:


Seems like a whole lot of relying on the arm of flesh going on in your church of academia, FJD. :D

Ironically, you relied on "the arm of flesh" of a FALSE "prophet" named Joseph Smith, Jr.

How about addressing the very real, objective, verifiable ways one can discern just how fractured Mormon hermeneutics are, where you superimpose Mormon meaning onto the Biblical text, thereby SKEWING the intended MEANING of the Biblical authors??

Example?

God clearly states that there is NO OTHER GOD...categoric statements by the Almighty Himself...statements you EQUIVOCATE and SKEW into meaning, "NO OTHER GOD whom you're supposed to worship"???


You twist, distort clear Biblical statements in a vain effort to make them CONFORM to Mormon belief. :eek:

[nrajeff]

So the compe***ion, in your mind, is between the reliability or track record of people's hearts, vs. the reliability or track record of people's minds. And you say minds are the clear winner. Interesting. What if BOTH my heart AND my mind are telling me that Trinitarianism and TULIP have some major flaws? Which side wins THEN? And academia's track record is that a majority of the world's scholars have concluded that Darwinian evolution is true and the Bible is a collection of myths written by largely anonymous supers***ious authors. And Communism and eugenics are a exercises in trusting the mind. Good *** there, right? So much for the triumph of the mind over the spirit.

[Father_JD]

So the compe***ion, in your mind, is between the reliability or track record of people's hearts, vs. the reliability or track record of people's minds. And you say minds are the clear winner. Interesting. What if BOTH my heart AND my mind are telling me that Trinitarianism and TULIP have some major flaws? Which side wins THEN? And academia's track record is that a majority of the world's scholars have concluded that Darwinian evolution is true and the Bible is a collection of myths written by largely anonymous supers***ious authors. And Communism and eugenics are a exercises in trusting the mind. Good *** there, right? So much for the triumph of the mind over the spirit.


No. False dilemma, jeff. Truth is established by scripture which will be revealed in BOTH mind and heart. My mind and heart are in conformity with scripture which declares that there is ONLY ONE GOD, and therefore Mormonism is necessarily FALSE, being henotheistic at best, polytheistic at worst.

"Academia" of the theological kind altered their world-view beginning with the Age of Enlightenment and attendant philosophies which denied supernaturalism, miracles and revelation. They come to the table with their world-view which dismisses the above out-of-hand, thereby forcing their "understanding" down certain pathways which are at odds with both the Biblical record and the fossil evidence. There is NO evidence for macro-evolution but mere lateral, adaptation development which doesn't contradict the Bible.

In short, the mind doesn't triumph over the spirit, neither does the spirit triumph over the mind...as it most certainly does in MORMONISM. :eek:

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

And since others get thosem same things in other sources like Judaism, and even Islam.. They must be just as filled with truth as mormonism.. FEELINGS DON'T CHANGE ERROR INTO TRUTH.. IHS jim

How do you know their experience is just like mine? Are you the diviner of what people feel in their hearts now?

If there is some truth in a belief, but not the fulness of truth, the Holy Spirit will still work to lead a person to that portion of truth and then on from there to the next portion of truth and eventually to a fulness, if the person continues to respond to the light he has already received.

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

So the compe***ion, in your mind, is between the reliability or track record of people's hearts, vs. the reliability or track record of people's minds. And you say minds are the clear winner. Interesting. What if BOTH my heart AND my mind are telling me that Trinitarianism and TULIP have some major flaws? Which side wins THEN? And academia's track record is that a majority of the world's scholars have concluded that Darwinian evolution is true and the Bible is a collection of myths written by largely anonymous supers***ious authors. And Communism and eugenics are a exercises in trusting the mind. Good *** there, right? So much for the triumph of the mind over the spirit.

Excellent points, Jeff. I hope JD and the other AOLs actually read what you wrote.

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

No. False dilemma, jeff. Truth is established by scripture which will be revealed in BOTH mind and heart. My mind and heart are in conformity with scripture which declares that there is ONLY ONE GOD, and therefore Mormonism is necessarily FALSE, being henotheistic at best, polytheistic at worst.

Can you tell me what other God we LDS worship besides the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob?[/QUOTE]

[akaSeerone]

Fig.....why do you act so innocent?

Between CARM and here and I do not know where else, you have been at this for quite some time and you already know our side of this issue, so why the games?

It sounds Christian for mormons to say they worship the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, but in reality that simply is not true because the god of mormonism and the God of the Bible just are not the same and the God of the Bible is the only God there is, so you do not worship the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

Mormonism has tried to change the meaning of many things in the Bible including who and what God is.......like teaching that God was once a man.....That has man making God and that is idol worship, because any man made god is an idol/false god and that is not the God that Christians worship and is not the God of the Bible.

Now grow up already and quit with the games.....this is serious business here, not your personal play ground.

Andy

[James Banta]

How do you know their experience is just like mine? Are you the diviner of what people feel in their hearts now?

If there is some truth in a belief, but not the fulness of truth, the Holy Spirit will still work to lead a person to that portion of truth and then on from there to the next portion of truth and eventually to a fulness, if the person continues to respond to the light he has already received.

Are your experiences like those of other mormons? What difference does it make? Emotional experiences no matter what you are feeling don't matter if these are what is used to know truth from error them your experience is no more authoritative than mine or a Jehovah's Witness, a Jew, or a Muslim.. That is NOT the way to identify truth and it seem to be the ONLY way mormonism calls to have it's truth or falsehood examined.. IHS jim

[akaSeerone]

Fig-bearing Thistle;32696]How do you know their experience is just like mine? Are you the diviner of what people feel in their hearts now?
Jesus told us how to discern the heart.

Matthew 12:34

34 O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.


If there is some truth in a belief, but not the fulness of truth, the Holy Spirit will still work to lead a person to that portion of truth and then on from there to the next portion of truth and eventually to a fulness, if the person continues to respond to the light he has already received.[/QUOTE]
That does not fly because it has people contributing to their own salvation and that is not Bible....Salvation is a free gift and it is all about what Jesus did....we cannot add to that in any way.

Andy

[Father_JD]

Can you tell me what other God we LDS worship besides the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob?

The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob...

1. Has ALWAYS been deity. He didn't "progress" to "godhood" as the Mormon deity did.
2. God the Father is SPIRIT according to scripture and Jesus' OWN WORDS. The Mormon "God the Father" is an exalted human incarnate male.

Therefore, your "god" is NOT THE GOD OF ABRAHAM, ISAAC, AND JACOB.

You've been told this hundreds of times...and that you can NOT defend your dogma from the Bible...not only are your beliefs NOT supported by the Bible, your doctrinal beliefs CONTRADICT the Bible. :eek:

[Father_JD]

Excellent points, Jeff. I hope JD and the other AOLs actually read what you wrote.

I've already answered jeff's "posers", Fig. I hope you'll read MINE. :D

[alanmolstad]

Just curious how different people view the subject of "SALVATION" or "BEING SAVED"

Is it a means, or an end? Please explain either way.

Thanks.

It really depends on the context of what you have in mind at the time.
"salvation" can be a life-long endeavor....and it can be talking about a moment of personal change in your life.
Both ideas are true, and both go on at the same time.

We are saved to be able to go out and do good works.
Thus the moment you become a christian you also start walking down the path of service.

[James Banta]

It really depends on the context of what you have in mind at the time.
"salvation" can be a life-long endeavor....and it can be talking about a moment of personal change in your life.
Both ideas are true, and both go on at the same time.

We are saved to be able to go out and do good works.
Thus the moment you become a christian you also start walking down the path of service.

Two different spiritual events that everyone needs.. First salvation.. It is a gift given to ALL who believe in Jesus as He is taught in the Bible.. Believing that He is our Savior, He who is Wonderful, our Counselor, The Mighty God, The Everlasting Father, the Prince of Peace.. Anything less than that and you don't worship the Jesus of the bible but merely a idol designed in the minds of mere men. To become His child by His grace through faith plus NOTHING gives a person salvation INSTANTLY. Then there is Justification. This is the hard part.. This is where we allow God to recreate us in the image of His Son.. This is where our flesh really resists the work of Gd within us. It fights the new creation God formed within us as we believed. Here we shake off our prejudgments of the poor as being less worthy than the rich. Here we learn to care for those who need more care such as the homeless, the hungry, the orphan, the widowed, and the naked. We learn the meaning of the life Jesus has called us to live. To be His hands in taking His message of redemption to the world while not ignoring the temporal needs of those he died to save..

We are saved the moment we become a child of God through faith in Jesus.. We are recreated by God in the process of our justification.. IHS jim

[Christian]

Just curious how different people view the subject of "SALVATION" or "BEING SAVED"

Is it a means, or an end? Please explain either way.

Thanks.

SALVATION is an end.

Eph 2:8-10
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
NKJV

HAVE BEEN saved (it is done. As Jesus said on the cross, "It is finished." The payment for the penalty of our sins has been paid.

NOW WE GROW in Jesus. All the time safe in HIS arms. HE is the good shepherd.

[kjb]

I just happened by this thread and was drawn in by Fig's question. Funny, it struck me as one intended to provoke in a way which actually draws one away from the simplicity of the gospel message. There is no clearer message about salvation than that which is presented in Ephesians 2. Salvation is a *gift* to those whom God has chosen. (Eph. 1) We always want to think we have something to do with it. We always want, as Fig said to, "think God places our consciences in us for a reason, and they are to guide us to the truth." We must not presume what God has or has not done. Rather, all we need to understand has already been revealed to us in His holy scripture, the Bible. Sola Scriptura.

If we rely on fallen, completely depraved human beings to "feel" truth, then we certainly will never see any need to trust in a sovereign God who is responsible alone not only for our salvation, but our justification AND our sanctification, accomplished through the work of Christ alone. Solus Christus. Further, our glorification is also his work: "“Those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified” (Rom 8:30). In His grace, our holy God has granted that we will actually share in His glory.

It is important not to conflate sanctification into justification (mentioned in the thread). The grounds of our justification is the merit of Christ, which becomes ours through faith alone (Rom. 3:28; Gal. 2:16) In Justification, our sins are imputed to Christ who bore them on the cross on our behalf. Christ's righteousness is, at the same time, imputed to believers where they are now viewed by God as cloaked in the righteousness of Christ. The beauty of the double imputation of Christ. Sanctification, on the other hand is "the work of God’s free grace, whereby we are renewed in the whole man after the image of God, and are enabled more and more to die unto sin, and live unto righteousness." (WSC35) We are not sanctified by our good works; rather, it is because God sanctified us, that by His grace, He produces good works in our lives. (Gal. 5)

Only until you understand just how fallen a creature you are -- only until you grasp the gravity of the sin of all of mankind because of Adam's disobedience as our federal head of the human race -- can you fully understand the immensity of the salvation given to us as a gift from God, whose mercy is unmeasurable. As covenantal or federal head, Adam acted on behalf of the whole race in what is known as the covenant of works. The covenant of grace (which we, as believers live beneath) has as its head, the "second man," and the "Last Adam" (1 Cor. 15:45-47), the Lord Jesus Christ. This whole concept also spoken of in Romans 5. Christ died on our behalf while we were/are weak and helpless (5:6), while we/are were guilty sinners (5:8), and while we were/are God's rebellious enemies (5:10).

If you don't get this part right (that we are, by nature, spiritually dead), then it's hard to get the rest of it right. You really have to start at the beginning to understand the whole story. Our hearts are so enslaved to sin that we would never desire to choose God on our own -- because we are born children of Adam. God first must change the disposition of our hearts for that to happen (regeneration). Because we are in bondage to our own desires (which scripture says is evil all the time - Gen 6:5) we would never choose God without his mercy being exhibited towards us.

So is it a means or an end? That is not the question to ask at all. It is the gospel alone that is the power unto salvation (Rom. 1:16)....not your wishes, perceptions and certainly not your tainted conscience. Certainly not your misguided feelings. Our salvation is a gift from God alone.

34 years ago, as a very young adult, I checked into the Mormon Church sincerity and with all good intentions to make it my church. Why? Mainly because the Mormons I met were such good people. It did not take long to figure out, as someone who likes to research, that Mormon doctrine was full of grave theological errors. Bottom line: Theology, grounded on the Bible alone, matters. I had to learn to distance my feelings for the Mormon people from the false nature of the Mormon Church. To understand, as someone said above, that all people are created in the Imago Dei, the image of God. Yet, not all will be called by God. God is both merciful and just.

I certainly don't blame Mormons for their opinions about evangelicals. Sadly, the evangelical church has, in the past few decades, failed to preach the gospel well -- allowing culture to rule within their doors and are guilty of misrepresenting the gospel. Thankfully, not all true Christian churches are guilty of this, but they are hard to find; they are usually small and have a historical perspective. (A good book to read: Christless Christianity by Dr. Michael Horton.)

To end, I would recommend a hearty reading of Ephesians 1-3 in regard to salvation, specifically, to remember what the gospel (and salvation) really is.......we all deserved wrath as children of Adam, but God chose to save some in spite of it all. I find that miraculous. The more we leave "me" out of it, the more clearly we see.

So -- don't beat me up here -- I'm a lady :rolleyes: I won't stay too long in a conversation because it usually becomes fruitless and I am able to rest in God in these things. Just know that within orthodox Christianity, there are theological differences worthy of consideration.

Last note: To explain some of what I was saying about covenants, you might have an inkling to read this article, but I am not sure you will be able to open it as I have a subscription. http://www.modernreformation.org/default.php?page=articledisplay&var1=ArtRead&var2=496&var3=authorbio&var4=AutRes&var5=247 It leaves out one covenant, the Covenant of Redemption, but speaks of the other two mentioned in my post.

I have discovered that many of my Mormon friends have never heard of Covenant Theology, which is the lens used by reformed theology. Rather, they have been exposed to Dispensationalism, which in my personal opinion, does not "get it right." Understanding the beauty of Covenant Theology made the Bible come alive and in context -- something badly needed in this generation. I well expect for evangelicals in this thread to come at me for saying this -- just know I won't play along. :D

[alanmolstad]

In Bible School I learned that the word "SALVATION " stems from a root word where we get the more well understood word for a medical covering "salve"

[James Banta]

In Bible School I learned that the word "SALVATION " stems from a root word where we get the more well understood word for a medical covering "salve"

So this is how you see the meaning of the word, be be some sort of spiritual salve? That would mean that it us for us to apply instead of entering in to God's salvation.. The word saved is used abundantly throughout the New Testament. It has the meaving of being spared from danger or harm, that both psychical and spiritual.. IHS jim

[alanmolstad]

"covering" is the root meaning of the word

[James Banta]

"covering" is the root meaning of the word

The meaning of the word salvation is based from the Roman goddess Salus. She was the goddess of security and well-being (welfare, health and prosperity) of both the individual and the state. There is no covering in that just the idea that she would SAVE people from misfortune.. IHS jim

[Apologette]

So this is how you see the meaning of the word, be be some sort of spiritual salve? That would mean that it us for us to apply instead of entering in to God's salvation.. The word saved is used abundantly throughout the New Testament. It has the meaving of being spared from danger or harm, that both psychical and spiritual.. IHS jim

It could be this "covering," the Blood of Christ. Without it, men stand on their own with no Mediator - just as Mormons do. Joe Smith will never mediate any salvation, and those who look to him are lost.

[James Banta]

It could be this "covering," the Blood of Christ. Without it, men stand on their own with no Mediator - just as Mormons do. Joe Smith will never mediate any salvation, and those who look to him are lost.

I believe that completely but to use the root meaning while Paul again and again uses the word saved is too narrow for me.. IHS jim

[alanmolstad]

The meaning of the word salvation is based from the Roman goddess Salus. She was the goddess of security and well-being (welfare, health and prosperity) of both the individual and the state. There is no covering in that just the idea that she would SAVE people from misfortune.. IHS jim
I can only say again what we were taught in Bible school ...and that the word salvation has at its root word the meaning of "salve" and that is to cover and is most correctly understood by us today as a "medicinal covering to promote healing."

[James Banta]

I can only say again what we were taught in Bible school ...and that the word salvation has at its root word the meaning of "salve" and that is to cover and is most correctly understood by us today as a medicinal "covering" to promote healing.

I wonder why they would bring up such an incorrect statement as to the meaning of salvation? Oh well you know the real meaning of the word today. That is all that matters... IHS jim

[alanmolstad]

I wonder.....
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php?topic=26119.0

[alanmolstad]

i can only tell youwhat i remember from cl*** at bible school around 1989.

what i remember is that salve...save...salvation...and savior all stem from common roots in the latin

[alanmolstad]

If I remember that cl*** correctly,(and yes I know it was a long time ago) we were studying the suffix "tion" in the Latin.

I remember that with the addition of this suffix we track the more modern concept of "saved" as in "I rescued/saved the drowning man"
It sorta fills-in the way we look at the term now.

The idea I remember my instructor was talking about was how Latin words are traced and have different meanings when you find them used in works that were common to the ways people spoke (and used and changed wordings.)
It was a Latin Professor who was my instructor, and I think his aim that day in cl*** was to see how the modern use of the terms "medical salve" (a medicinal salve/covering to promote healing and good health) and "religious salvation" (the Christian concept of redemption) stem from their Latin root.


I remember at one point the Professor said that we pour the salve "into the wound" to heal it and protect it.
And then we used this image in our discussion of the Latin of "salva-tion"

[James Banta]

If I remember that cl*** correctly,(and yes I know it was a long time ago) we were studying the suffix "tion" in the Latin.

I remember that with the addition of this suffix we track the more modern concept of "saved" as in "I rescued/saved the drowning man"
It sorta fills-in the way we look at the term now.

The idea I remember my instructor was talking about was how Latin words are traced and have different meanings when you find them used in works that were common to the ways people spoke (and used and changed wordings.)
It was a Latin Professor who was my instructor, and I think his aim that day in cl*** was to see how the modern use of the terms "medical salve" (a medicinal salve/covering to promote healing and good health) and "religious salvation" (the Christian concept of redemption) stem from their Latin root.


I remember at one point the Professor said that we pour the salve "into the wound" to heal it and protect it.
And then we used this image in our discussion of the Latin of "salva-tion"

The other story of how we got the term like your learning of the word makes just as much sense.. Maybe how we should look at it is the origin doens't matter as much as the meaning God has for us in His meaning of the word.. IHS jim

[Apologette]

I can only say again what we were taught in Bible school ...and that the word salvation has at its root word the meaning of "salve" and that is to cover and is most correctly understood by us today as a "medicinal covering to promote healing."

So, what Bible School would that be and what denomination are you part of?

[Apologette]

Sozo, the Greek word for salvation used in the (NT) Bible, is very encomp***ing in its meaning. Here is a study:

http://www.andrewwommack.org/god_wants_well/chapter_3

[alanmolstad]

So, what Bible School would that be and what denomination are you part of?

Hard Knox...

[RealFakeHair]

Hard Knox...
I went to the university of Mar, but I flunked out.
Do you know the Greek word for (greek)?

[alanmolstad]

I was only addressing the idea that the term "salvation" has a nice juicy history of meanings that you can really dig into......and so it's a shame to just say it means a "once for all time' event in a person's life when the context of the term and it's use over 100s and 100s of years of evolution have given us a much more complected meanings to keep in mind when we use the term.

I remember the image of my professor when teaching on the root Latin of the terms, and his pretending to pouring medicine into a cut, to heal and protect it.

[Apologette]

I was only addressing the idea that the term "salvation" has a nice juicy history of meanings that you can really dig into......and so it's a shame to just say it means a "once for all time' event in a person's life when the context of the term and it's use over 100s and 100s of years of evolution have given us a much more complected meanings to keep in mind when we use the term.

I remember the image of my professor when teaching on the root Latin of the terms, and his pretending to pouring medicine into a cut, to heal and protect it.
Salvation is an English word, so the root of the word doesn't really pertain to the Greek word used in the bible. The Greek word is far more than related to a salve.

[Apologette]

Thanks, Jeff.

I can see your point.

For me, viewing it from the present, Salvation is a destiny, and an end. But of course once arriving at an end, it then becomes a means to other ends beyond that.

The Gospel is the means.

Right here we have false teaching. The Gospel is the means? What does he mean by that? Well, he obviously means the Mormon gospel, which entails, faith (in Mormon Jesus), repenting, getting baptized by a Mormon with the proper "priesthood" authority, and receiving the "laying on of hands" for the false Mormon "Holy Ghost," who can only be at one place at a time. Futhermore, this is only preliminary salvation according to the cult. It goes on from there:



"To be exalted, we first must place our faith in Jesus Christ and then endure in that faith to the end of our lives. Our faith in Him must be such that we repent of our sins and obey His commandments.

He commands us all to receive certain ordinances:

1. We must be baptized.
2. We must receive the laying on of hands to be confirmed a member of the Church of Jesus Christ and to receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
3. Brethren must receive the Melchizedek Priesthood and magnify their callings in the priesthood.
4. We must receive the temple endowment.
5. We must be married for eternity, either in this life or in the next." (LDS.org)

So, Fig puts the question out there without explaining the doctrine taught by the cult he was part of. In fact, Mormons will go as far to teach that bodily resurrection is general salvation, which it a total lie of course. All men will be resurrected, and some to ****ation.

The ultimate form of salvation is "exaltation to godhood," and this is the destination Mormons want to reach. This is all predicated upon works and participation in the occult rites of the Mormon temples. Mormonism is deceitful about what they teach about salvation, and so was the OP.

[James Banta]

Right here we have false teaching. The Gospel is the means? What does he mean by that? Well, he obviously means the Mormon gospel, which entails, faith (in Mormon Jesus), repenting, getting baptized by a Mormon with the proper "priesthood" authority, and receiving the "laying on of hands" for the false Mormon "Holy Ghost," who can only be at one place at a time. Futhermore, this is only preliminary salvation according to the cult. It goes on from there:



"To be exalted, we first must place our faith in Jesus Christ and then endure in that faith to the end of our lives. Our faith in Him must be such that we repent of our sins and obey His commandments.

He commands us all to receive certain ordinances:

1. We must be baptized.
2. We must receive the laying on of hands to be confirmed a member of the Church of Jesus Christ and to receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
3. Brethren must receive the Melchizedek Priesthood and magnify their callings in the priesthood.
4. We must receive the temple endowment.
5. We must be married for eternity, either in this life or in the next." (LDS.org)

So, Fig puts the question out there without explaining the doctrine taught by the cult he was part of. In fact, Mormons will go as far to teach that bodily resurrection is general salvation, which it a total lie of course. All men will be resurrected, and some to ****ation.

The ultimate form of salvation is "exaltation to godhood," and this is the destination Mormons want to reach. This is all predicated upon works and participation in the occult rites of the Mormon temples. Mormonism is deceitful about what they teach about salvation, and so was the OP.

Great point to call resurrection salvation of any kind is a fracturing of the scripture.. All will be raise some to life and most to ****ation (John 5:29, Matthew 22:14) IHS jim

[Apologette]

Hard Knox...

Some kind of denomination that teaches that their baptisms save?

[Apologette]

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php?topic=26119.0

So what's your point. Thinking of converting to E.O.? The site confirms what I posted above.

[Apologette]

Here's how Fig responded to Fr. JD's post about testable testimonies:

"How do you propose to test a testimony? Compare it to academia and scholarship?

Seems like a whole lot of relying on the arm of flesh going on in your church of academia, FJD."

This response is totally hypocritical - since Mormonism is led by "an arm of flesh," (the Brethren) always changing their mind about things - undergarments, priesthood for blacks, occult temple rituals, etc. And the cult is always appealing to their own "academia" for affirmation of such lies as the existence of the Nephites, and Jaredite subs!

Sure Christians can appeal to real scholarship and academia to confirm God's Word. Yet, Fig mocked Fr. J.D. in that regard. The Mormons have a putrid, non-academic, "testimony" of the truth of their cult, the Nephites, and how old Joe Smith was a real prophet - and they claim that God told them these truths! A totally vacuous "testimony" that is as worthless as a Unificationist having a testimony that Sun Myung Moon was the Lord of the Second Advent.

Fig was smooth, he practiced deception, and God will judge him for it. Hopefully he repented before meeting the True and Living God!

[alanmolstad]

I think to be saved is to be healed......

to be healed from a deep cut.....

Its like watching a doctor work on your cut, and in the end you feel better and know you are going to be OK.....

[alanmolstad]

I think to be saved is to be healed......

to be healed from a deep cut.....

Its like watching a doctor work on your cut, and in the end you feel better and know you are going to be OK.....




still the best answer anyone posted...

[Grandma]

God chooses a person. Rom. 8:30
God saves a person. Eph. 2:8-9; ***us 3:5
God adds the person who is being saved to the Church. Acts 2:47
God works all things for good to those He has called. Rom. 8:28
God will keep us firm to the end. 1 Cor. 1:8

I Cor. 1:9
"God is faithful, through whom you were called into fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord."

Isa. 49:15
"Can a woman forget her sucking child, that she should not have comp***ion on the son of her womb? yea, they may forget, yet will I not forget thee."

We have p***ed from death to life! And God keeps His promises!

We have been saved (God declared it.) We are being saved. And we will be saved when our lives on earth are over.

[theway]

God chooses a person. Rom. 8:30
God saves a person. Eph. 2:8-9; ***us 3:5
God adds the person who is being saved to the Church. Acts 2:47
God works all things for good to those He has called. Rom. 8:28
God will keep us firm to the end. 1 Cor. 1:8

I Cor. 1:9
"God is faithful, through whom you were called into fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord."

Isa. 49:15
"Can a woman forget her sucking child, that she should not have comp***ion on the son of her womb? yea, they may forget, yet will I not forget thee."

We have p***ed from death to life! And God keeps His promises!

We have been saved (God declared it.) We are being saved. And we will be saved when our lives on earth are over.Ahhhhh.... You seem to be missing a few very important steps..

By your succession of events you have two problems.

First, you have people saved in their sins! In other words, unrepentant sinners will be in heaven.

Second, you can't resolve my first observation without all your other steps happening at the same, thereby creating a paradox.

Sorry, but will not be able to make your Calvanistic heresies work, even God can not do that without contradicting Himself.

[Phoenix]

i see your point, theway, and it seems quite logical. if it were true that a person is saved first, before repentance, then if that person were to die immediately after being saved, then the person died without repenting of his sins, which means that his sins were never remitted or forgiven--and never can be forgiven, if people aren't allowed a chance to repent after they die. which means that either:

-- the person will get eternal life despite never being forgiven, which is heretical; or
-- that person has no hope of being saved, which contradicts the premise that he DID get saved--right before he died.

both options seem pretty false and illogical and "not within the pale of accepted Christianity," imo.

[Grandma]

God chooses a person. Rom. 8:30
God saves a person. Eph. 2:8-9; ***us 3:5
God adds the person who is being saved to the Church. Acts 2:47
God works all things for good to those He has called. Rom. 8:28
God will keep us firm to the end. 1 Cor. 1:8

I Cor. 1:9
"God is faithful, through whom you were called into fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord."

Isa. 49:15
"Can a woman forget her sucking child, that she should not have comp***ion on the son of her womb? yea, they may forget, yet will I not forget thee."

We have p***ed from death to life! And God keeps His promises!

We have been saved (God declared it.) We are being saved. And we will be saved when our lives on earth are over. Ahhhhh.... You seem to be missing a few very important steps..

Such as? Are you talking about the life we live as a result of Christ living in us --- the Imperishable Seed? That is something that happens to His sheep. They are following the Shepherd. Did you not read Romans 8:28?



By your succession of events you have two problems.

First, you have people saved in their sins! In other words, unrepentant sinners will be in heaven.

There are ni sinners in heaven.



Second, you can't resolve my first observation without all your other steps happening at the same, thereby creating a paradox.

Sorry, but will not be able to make your Calvanistic heresies work, even God can not do that without contradicting Himself.

Not sure of what you're trying to get across, but it sounds like you don't trust God to keep His promises.

In Christian Love,

Grandma

[Grandma]

i see your point, theway, and it seems quite logical. if it were true that a person is saved first, before repentance, then if that person were to die immediately after being saved, then the person died without repenting of his sins, which means that his sins were never remitted or forgiven--and never can be forgiven, if people aren't allowed a chance to repent after they die. which means that either:

-- the person will get eternal life despite never being forgiven, which is heretical; or
-- that person has no hope of being saved, which contradicts the premise that he DID get saved--right before he died.

both options seem pretty false and illogical and "not within the pale of accepted Christianity," imo.

We are forgiven the moment God grants the new birth. The sheep that was going astray is now following the shepherd.

[theway]

Such as? Are you talking about the life we live as a result of Christ living in us --- the Imperishable Seed? That is something that happens to His sheep. They are following the Shepherd. Did you not read Romans 8:28?Thats part of it... However before we can even begin to discuss these items as well as baptism, becoming perfect, obeying God, etc... You'll have to first solve the paradox of your original statement.


There are ni sinners in heaven. I agree there are [no] sinners in Heaven, which is why I am perplexed as to why you have forgotten about: Forgiveness of sins? Faith? and Repentance?


Not sure of what you're trying to get across, but it sounds like you don't trust God to keep His promises.

In Christian Love,
GrandmaOh I trust God, I'm just don't trust you and your made-up doctrine of contradictions and paradoxes...
For instance... In your "God does it all" Modern doctrine, please place in order of occurrence the following statements of yours, and then tell us how long it can take God to complete each step?
For instance; if the first thing God does is Choose a person, then how long can it take before we are actually saved? Can I be chosen and not know it, then die and be saved without ever knowing God?

Please place in order and give time limits to each...

God chooses a person.
God saves a person.
God adds the person who is being saved to the Church.
God works all things for good to those He has called.
God will keep us firm to the end.
God forgives a person.
God works repentance on a person.
God gives man Faith.

[Grandma]

Thats part of it... However before we can even begin to discuss these items as well as baptism, becoming perfect, obeying God, etc... You'll have to first solve the paradox of your original statement.

No there are [no] sinners in Heaven, which is why I am perplexed as to why you have forgotten about: Forgiveness of sins, and Repentance?

Oh I trust God, I'm just don't trust you and you made-up doctrine of contradictions and paradoxes...
For instance... In your "God does it all" Modern doctrine, please place in order of occurrence the following statements of yours, and then tell us how long it can take God to complete each step?
For instance; if the first thing God does is Choose a person, then how long can it take before we are actually saved? Can I be chosen and not know it, then die and be saved without ever knowing God?

How odd that you want God to tell you His timing! I don't insist that God do everything in a time frame. Everyone God chooses will know God in this life. Try to see what God is saying in the Bible.

John 10:14
I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.

John 10:27
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:





Please place in order and give time limits to each...
God chooses a person.
God saves a person.
God adds the person who is being saved to the Church.
God works all things for good to those He has called.
God will keep us firm to the end.
God forgives a person.
God works repentance on a person.

Simultaneous:

Ezekiel 36:26
A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

Colossians 2:13
And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all tresp***es;

Ephesians 4:32
And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

This is speaking of the new birth and regeneration. The spiritually dead person is brought to life. Now he's sorry for his sins and wants to please God. He belongs to Christ's Church and He belongs to God.

Romans 8:28
And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

Romans 8
37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. 38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, 39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.


Is Christ a Good Shepherd? How good is He? Will He lose one sheep?

Isaiah 41:10
Fear thou not; for I am with thee: be not dismayed; for I am thy God: I will strengthen thee; yea, I will help thee; yea, I will uphold thee with the right hand of my righteousness.

In Christian Love,

Grandma

[theway]

How odd that you want God to tell you His timing! I don't insist that God do everything in a time frame. Everyone God chooses will know God in this life.
I guess that under your theology God has no time for Asians as they represent the largest majority of people who have lived and yet are the smallest percentage of people who God has Chosen to be saved.
It seems God only likes choosing white Europeans and North Americans under you beliefs....


Try to see what God is saying in the Bible.

Why would I need to do that? seeing as though reading or understanding the Bible is not on your list of requirements for salvation?
According to your theology that makes it ironically one of your unbiblical requirements.





Simultaneous:

And here is yet the first of the many paradoxes of your beliefs....
If it was simultaneous then that begs the question.... Was I "Chosen" before I was born? And if so, does that mean I was free of sin and saved before I was born?
I could go on, and on, and on, with all the holes in your simple one word reply, but let's just start with you answering this one contradiction first.

[Grandma]

I guess that under your theology God has no time for Asians as they represent the largest majority of people who have lived and yet are the smallest percentage of people who God has Chosen to be saved.
It seems God only lies choosing white Europeans and North Americans under you beliefs....



Why would I need to do that? seeing as though reading or understanding the Bible is not on your list of requirements for salvation?
According to your theology that makes it ironically one of your unbiblical requirements.



And here is yet the first of the many paradoxes of your beliefs....
If it was simultaneous then that begs the question.... Was I "Chosen" before I was born? And if so, does that mean I was free of sin and saved before I was born?
I could go on, and on, and on, with all the holes in your simple one word reply, but let's just start with you answering this one contradiction first.

The only holes in the TRUTH that I'm presenting are ones that you're digging. Apparently, you don't want to know the TRUTH. Someday God may give you a new heart.

In Christian Love,

Grandma

[Phoenix]

but granny, your "simultaneous everything" theory is unbiblical, and there is no evidence of any early christians--including the new testament-era apostles-- believing it. the evidence that has survived indicates that they believed the opposite of your theory. for example: peter told the jews who believed his preaching about the gospel this when they asked him what they should do next: "repent and be baptized for the remission of your sins."

that one simple statement in the bible that you claim to get your beliefs from shoots your beliefs down in flames.

if those jews were already simultaneously chosen, saved, added to the Church, and forgiven...then what peter told them was nonsense and a lie.

you are going to have to choose as the truth, one of the following:

what the bible teaches, or this theory of yours.

[Grandma]

Apparently, you don't want to know the TRUTH. Someday God may give you a new heart. I'll pray for you, but our conversations are ended because we've hit an imp***e. Joseph Smith adopted Alexander Campbell's theory about baptism, no doubt via Sidney Rigdon or Oliver Cowdery.


In Christian Love,

Grandma

[theway]

The only holes in the TRUTH that I'm presenting are ones that you're digging. Apparently, you don't want to know the TRUTH. Someday God may give you a new heart.

In Christian Love,

Grandma
I know the truth... And what you are selling is not it....
You realize that as well, otherwise you would answer my questions.
Were you chosen by God to salvation before you were born, Yes or no?

[theway]

this forum keeps malfunctioning... In more ways than one.

[Phoenix]

Apparently, you don't want to know the TRUTH.
the truth is that you aren't following the bible's recipe for being saved. and we do know that truth, since we are challenging your unbiblical beliefs.


Someday God may give you a new heart.
maybe he will give you a new one, and then you will believe what the bible says about the recipe for salvation, instead of this newfangled theory you have come up with to replace the bible's recipe.


I'll pray for you,
it will do you no good to pray that a person will stop believing what the bible teaches.


but our conversations are ended because we've hit an imp***e.
if it's an imp***e, it's because you don't want to accept what the bible teaches.


Joseph Smith adopted Alexander Campbell's theory about baptism
what theory is that? elaborate.


no doubt via Sidney Rigdon or Oliver Cowdery.
they were both christians, and you claim to be a christian, so why is your belief any more biblical than the beliefs of those fellow christians?

[theway]

Someday God may give you a new heart.

In Christian Love,

Grandma
God will give me a new heart? LOL... Apparently you must believe that God has already chosen me then... Which by you "simultaneous" comment means you believe I am already saved...

[Phoenix]

God will give me a new heart? LOL... Apparently you must believe that God has already chosen me then... Which by you "simultaneous" comment means you believe I am already saved...

that paradox is making me dizzy. like when i try too hard to make sense of the trinity theory.

[alanmolstad]

Just curious how different people view the subject of "SALVATION" or "BEING SAVED"

Is it a means, or an end? Please explain either way.

Thanks.

Mostly I use the term "salvation" when talking in the past tense...
Mostly I use the term "Being Saved" for current or future tense...

Salvation as I mostly use it in a sentence, is like, "The repair truck was my salvation"
Being saved as I mostly use it in a sentence is like "Cant talk now too busy being saved by the repair truck " or "We plan on being saved by the repair truck"




aside from that, the only thing I remember about the word "salvation" is that its based on a root word that we translate as "Salve" and I think that word means a 'covering" that is now a term used for medical creams.