Can Someone Help? Spirit Creation

[Vlad III]

Andy says,

"Our spirits were "created" when God breathed into Adam." but then followed up with this, "This much I do know....the mormon teaching about spirit babies and us existing in Heaven is not what the Bible teaches and is therefore false."

I asked for clarification and the reply was:

Where do you get that our spirits were created before our bodies. It is not in the Bible so mormonism is wrong about that.

The Bible says God breathed into Adam....our spirits came from God breathing into Adam.

God breathed our spirit into Adam and it is wrapped in this clump of earth much like us when we are inside of our vehicles that are also made from the earth.

So, I would like some other non-LDS to help clarify this for me, as I'm now confused. It sounds like on one hand, Andy is saying that God created our spirits all at the time he breathed into Adam. But then he says that LDS are wrong for claiming that our spirits were created before our bodies because the Bible doesn't mention that. But then he follows it up again by stating that God breathed OUR spirit into Adam....and then some stuff about vehicles that I completely got lost on.:confused:

1) Do you believe our spirits were created at the time of Adam?

2) If so, where were they while waiting for our physical bodies?

3) If not, when were our spirits created?

[Russ]

3) If not, when were our spirits created?

According to LDSism, which you did not explain, "spirits" have always existed as "intelligences," a sort of primordial goo-ness of undefined nature.

Also according to LDSism, these "intelligences" became "procreated" by Father God and Mother God where they came to exist in what's known in LDSism as the "preexistence" before taking on "tabernacles of flesh and bone" in the "mortal probation."

Take it from there. Let us break into LDS-speak for clarification.

The man-on-the-street would be clueless without your clarification. I know. I've asked. When informed, the man-on-the-street routinely responds, "You're kidding, right?"

No, I'm not.

[Vlad III]

According to LDSism, which you did not explain, "spirits" have always existed as "intelligences," a sort of primordial goo-ness of undefined nature.

Also according to LDSism, these "intelligences" became "procreated" by Father God and Mother God where they came to exist in what's known in LDSism as the "preexistence" before taking on "tabernacles of flesh and bone" in the "mortal probation."

Take it from there. Let us break into LDS-speak for clarification.

The man-on-the-street would be clueless without your clarification. I know. I've asked. When informed, the man-on-the-street routinely responds, "You're kidding, right?"

No, I'm not.

Thanks, Russ.

I was looking for another non-LDS to clarify the non-LDS position of Andy.

Someone else?

[Russ]

Thanks, Russ.

I was looking for another non-LDS to clarify the non-LDS position of Andy.

Someone else?

You're welcome, Vlad III.

Can we get some LDS clarification on things?

[Libby]

My understanding, which I believe is biblical...


1) Do you believe our spirits were created at the time of Adam?

No.


2) If so, where were they while waiting for our physical bodies?

They were not created yet, but God still knew about us, because he is omniscient.


3) If not, when were our spirits created?

I believe, when we are conceived. Our spirits are created with our bodies.

[Russ]

I believe, when we are conceived. Our spirits are created with our bodies.

Yep, that works. nt

[Russ]

Thanks, Russ.

I was looking for another non-LDS to clarify the non-LDS position of Andy.

Someone else?

You're a true-believing Mormon who thinks his religion offers the ultimate answers to such questions.

Bring it to the table. If you won't, or if you can't, I'll do it for you.

[Billyray]

Thanks, Russ.

I was looking for another non-LDS to clarify the non-LDS position of Andy.

Someone else?

I do not think our spirits were formed prior to our births. This is indicated in Zechariah 12:1 which states, ". . .The LORD, who stretches out the heavens, who lays the foundation of the earth, and who forms the spirit of man within him.


Proof texts used by LDS to try to show a pre-existence of spirits

Jer 1:5 "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations."

Shows the foreknowledge of God.

*** 38:7
KJV--When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

NIV-- while the morning stars sang together and all the angels shouted for joy?

"When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy: This tells us that angelic beings (here called morning stars and sons of God) did in fact witness the creation of the earth, and the rejoiced at the glory, power, and wisdom of God in the creation."
http://www.enduringword.com/commentaries/1838.htm

[Vlad III]

You're a true-believing Mormon who thinks his religion offers the ultimate answers to such questions.

Bring it to the table. If you won't, or if you can't, I'll do it for you.

Russ,

With all due respect. This thread was for some clarification on what NON-LDS believe concerning the creation of spirits.

Please don't feel the need to jump into every thread and try and preach what you believe the LDS believe - especially in a thread that is asking for the non-LDS side. If you want to do that....at least entertain the questions of the OP first.

It is a little sad that the impression you give to many is that if someone were to meet you on a sidewalk and ask you about the hope you have in you, you would respond about why the LDS are a cult. That is your religion...we get it. But please don't chime in every thread asking for a non-LDS perspective just to give your non-LDS perspective of what the LDS perspective is.

Thanks!

[Vlad III]

So akaSeerone (aka. Andy) seems to be the only one so far that has this belief that spirits were all formed at the time of God breathing into Adam.

And is also of the belief that there are no more prophets to be had after John the baptist.

Do these discrepencies make Any a non-Christian? Or do they make him Heterodox? Or are these 2 examples just points that can be disagreed upon with no consequence?

[Russ]

Vlad, with due respect, this is a board to do with LDSism.

Explain LDSism or I'll do it for you.

People have a right to know what the nice young men in white shirts are bringing with their "free Bibles."

Libs answered well in this thread and I would have answered the same.

Don't pretend to lecture me, SIR, with morality.

Cultists, such as Scientologists and Mormons, hide their beliefs, such as you do, and you won't get away with it.

You're Welcome!


Russ,

With all due respect. This thread was for some clarification on what NON-LDS believe concerning the creation of spirits.

Please don't feel the need to jump into every thread and try and preach what you believe the LDS believe - especially in a thread that is asking for the non-LDS side. If you want to do that....at least entertain the questions of the OP first.

It is a little sad that the impression you give to many is that if someone were to meet you on a sidewalk and ask you about the hope you have in you, you would respond about why the LDS are a cult. That is your religion...we get it. But please don't chime in every thread asking for a non-LDS perspective just to give your non-LDS perspective of what the LDS perspective is.

Thanks!

[nrajeff]

Russ doesn't want to clarify Andy's explanation of Russ's beliefs, because Russ doesn't understand them either.

[Russ]

Russ doesn't want to clarify Andy's explanation of Russ's beliefs, because Russ doesn't understand them either.

Is that so?

My answer is the same as Libs.

What's going on in the "preexistence," Jeff?

What's going on with "eternal intelligences?"

[Russ]

So akaSeerone (aka. Andy) seems to be the only one so far that has this belief that spirits were all formed at the time of God breathing into Adam.

And is also of the belief that there are no more prophets to be had after John the baptist.

Do these discrepencies make Any a non-Christian? Or do they make him Heterodox? Or are these 2 examples just points that can be disagreed upon with no consequence?

What consequences would you suggest for a person who disagrees with another?

(Keep in mind Mormons who disagree.)

[akaSeerone]

It is really simple.

God does not have to create new people, we come from our parents.

God formed the first spirit in the man Adam by breathing into the earthen formed man and a portion of that Spirit/Breath of God is p***ed down and comes with the package with every new birth.

There is no Bible for spirit babies in heaven before we come to earth.

Andy

[Vlad III]

Vlad, with due respect, this is a board to do with LDSism.

True. And it is not a crime for a LDS person to create a thread to understand the POV of a non-LDS person on an issue where there might be some disagreement.


Explain LDSism or I'll do it for you.

Feel free to create your own thread if you want to talk about the LDS position of spirit creation. That's the nice thing about a board where you can create a whole new topic if you are wont to derail the current one.


People have a right to know what the nice young men in white shirts are bringing with their "free Bibles."

Great! Don't I have the right to know what you, the non_LDS believe, about something? If I am asking to know what you believe, not telling me but then only telling me what you think I believe seems a bit counter-productive to helping me gain the information and to make an informed decision to leave my beliefs for yours.


Libs answered well in this thread and I would have answered the same.

Yeah. And thanks Libs! Russ would've answered the same....but that would've meant Russ sharing what HE believes....and that kind of gets in the way of him telling other people what they believe.


Don't pretend to lecture me, SIR, with morality.

No lecture. Make your owm thread if you want.


Cultists, such as Scientologists and Mormons, hide their beliefs, such as you do, and you won't get away with it.

Hmmm.....the irony here is I was asking what YOUR beliefs were, and instead of sharing you went for trying to tell me what I already am supposed to believe about my own religion. Who was hiding?

[Russ]

There is no Bible for spirit babies in heaven before we come to earth.

Andy

What is Andy talking about?

LDSism and the preexistence, and the mortal probation, and the millennium, and the judgment, and the three levels of heaven, and the LDS goal of becoming Gods over their own planets.

Mormons call it "Eternal Progression":

Just look at the graphs:

http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&source=hp&q=eternal+progression&gbv=2&aq=f&oq=&aqi=

[Vlad III]

It is really simple.

God does not have to create new people, we come from our parents.

God formed the first spirit in the man Adam by breathing into the earthen formed man and a portion of that Spirit/Breath of God is p***ed down and comes with the package with every new birth.

There is no Bible for spirit babies in heaven before we come to earth.

Andy

very interesting!!!

I've not heard this POV before. So your belief is that God breathed the spirit into Adam, and every child that is born receives their body from their parents but also a part of that same spirit that was breathed into Adam fills that new body. So God really didn;t create us with individual spirits but we are all a part of the original spirit breathed into Adam.

Am I understanding you correctly?

[akaSeerone]

What is Andy talking about?

LDSism and the preexistence, and the mortal probation, and the millennium, and the judgment, and the three levels of heaven, and the LDS goal of becoming Gods over their own planets.

Mormons call it "Eternal Progression":

Just look at the graphs:

http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&source=hp&q=eternal+progression&gbv=2&aq=f&oq=&aqi=

Man!!!

All those sites/graphs stink of carnality and the occult.

The spirit of darkness and deceit is so thick there I only viewed for a couple of minutes. :eek

Andy

[nrajeff]

It is really simple.
God does not have to create new people, we come from our parents.
God formed the first spirit in the man Adam by breathing into the earthen formed man and a portion of that Spirit/Breath of God is p***ed down and comes with the package with every new birth.

--But Russ believes that it was JESUS who created ALL things, all spirits, all demons, all persons including Adam and Eve, anyone who ever lived or will live, whether in heaven or on Earth. But you say "God" did it. Which of you is wrong?

[akaSeerone]

Do we all look alike? No....so why should we have the same exact spirit?

Never-the-less our spirits originated through God breathing into Adam.

Andy

[akaSeerone]

Jesus is God.

John the 1st chapter.

Andy

[Vlad III]

Do we all look alike? No....so why should we have the same exact spirit?

Never-the-less our spirits originated through God breathing into Adam.

Andy

um...okay.

Thanks.

[Russ]

--But Russ believes that it was JESUS who created ALL things, all spirits, all demons, all persons including Adam and Eve, anyone who ever lived or will live, whether in heaven or on Earth. But you say "God" did it. Which of you is wrong?

Jesus is God made manifest in the flesh. The Word, John 1:1 and 1:14.

[Vlad III]

Jesus is God made manifest in the flesh. The Word, John 1:1 and 1:14.

But I thought you said that Jesus was the Father incarnate?

cfgsuoiwpspd <-----(THAT's what a slip-of-the-keyboard looks like) :D:p

[nrajeff]

Jesus is God made manifest in the flesh. The Word, John 1:1 and 1:14.

---So you believe that Jesus IS THE TRINITY made manifest in the flesh, therefore whether a person says "Jesus made Satan" or "The Trinity made Satan" it's exactly the same thing?

And how is that NOT modalism?

[Russ]

---So you believe that Jesus IS THE TRINITY made manifest in the flesh, therefore whether a person says "Jesus made Satan" or "The Trinity made Satan" it's exactly the same thing?

And how is that NOT modalism?

Ah, another Trinity-debate-red-herring.

[Russ]

I can help by presenting that which you have not presented regarding your own religion:

According to LDSism, which you did not explain, "spirits" have always existed as "intelligences," a sort of primordial goo-ness of undefined nature.

Also according to LDSism, these "intelligences" became "procreated" by Father God and Mother God where they came to exist in what's known in LDSism as the "preexistence" before taking on "tabernacles of flesh and bone" in the "mortal probation."

These are the facts to which people should be made aware, but the LDS missionaries don't ask and don't tell.

[nrajeff]

Russ, you weren't trying to EVADE my questions, were you?

So you believe that Jesus IS THE TRINITY made manifest in the flesh, therefore whether a person says "Jesus made Satan" or "The Trinity made Satan" it's exactly the same thing?

And how is that NOT modalism?

[stemelbow]

Hey Libby, have any biblical references to support your theory?

love,
stem

[Russ]

Russ, you weren't trying to EVADE my questions, were you?

So you believe that Jesus IS THE TRINITY made manifest in the flesh, therefore whether a person says "Jesus made Satan" or "The Trinity made Satan" it's exactly the same thing?

And how is that NOT modalism?

Not avoiding. Not evading. Rather, ignoring. This isn't a discussion on the Trinity.

LDSism is on the table. I'll help provide clarification where and/or when LDS members are mute.

[James Banta]

Russ, you weren't trying to EVADE my questions, were you?

So you believe that Jesus IS THE TRINITY made manifest in the flesh, therefore whether a person says "Jesus made Satan" or "The Trinity made Satan" it's exactly the same thing?

And how is that NOT modalism?

If that is what the Trinity is then you would be correct in calling it modalism. That isn't what the Trinity is nor is it anything close to Russ' ideal of what and who God is.. Yes We believe that there is one Being who is God.. That Being is the Persons of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.. I thought you knew what that the Trinity is.. You have had it explained to you more than once.. IHS jim

[Russ]

Not hiding. Standing right here in front of you, using my real name and not some alter ego internet moniker that I dreamed up.

Libs answer is a good one. It stands as mine too.

According to LDSism, which you continually neglect to explain, "spirits" have always existed as "intelligences," a sort of primordial goo-ness of undefined nature.

Also according to LDSism, these "intelligences" became "procreated" by Father God and Mother God where they came to exist in what's known in LDSism as the "preexistence" before taking on "tabernacles of flesh and bone" in the "mortal probation."

These are the facts to which people should be made aware, but you never told me.

Why?

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

According to LDSism, which you did not explain, "spirits" have always existed as "intelligences," a sort of primordial goo-ness of undefined nature.

Also according to LDSism, these "intelligences" became "procreated" by Father God and Mother God where they came to exist in what's known in LDSism as the "preexistence" before taking on "tabernacles of flesh and bone" in the "mortal probation."

Take it from there. Let us break into LDS-speak for clarification.

The man-on-the-street would be clueless without your clarification. I know. I've asked. When informed, the man-on-the-street routinely responds, "You're kidding, right?"

No, I'm not.

Russ doesn't know what he believes. He just knows what he doesn't believe.

[Russ]

Russ doesn't know what he believes. He just knows what he doesn't believe.

On a board to do with LDSism, one would think Mormons would be quite content to speak honestly and openly about their religion, the "only true church on the face of the earth."

When Mormons come asking questions, and when Mormons come presenting what they consider to be "stumpers," and when Mormons are answered (twice already in this thread), it's time to get right back to the topic of this board.

LDSism would have us believe that God and Mother God "procreated" the spirits in the "preexistence" (don't ask me, Mormons made it up), and then the spirits took on "tabernacles of flesh and bone" (physical bodies in Mormon-speak) so that they too might have opportunity to become Gods over their own planets.

THAT is LDSism in a nutshell.

People deserve to know what they're signing up for before they sign up.

And since you won't tell them, I will.

I'll steam roll you in LDS quotes.

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

On a board to do with LDSism, one would think Mormons would be quite content to speak honestly and openly about their religion, the "only true church on the face of the earth."

When Mormons come asking questions, and when Mormons come presenting what they consider to be "stumpers," and when Mormons are answered (twice already in this thread), it's time to get right back to the topic of this board.

LDSism would have us believe that God and Mother God "procreated" the spirits in the "preexistence" (don't ask me, Mormons made it up), and then the spirits took on "tabernacles of flesh and bone" (physical bodies in Mormon-speak) so that they too might have opportunity to become Gods over their own planets.

THAT is LDSism in a nutshell.

People deserve to know what they're signing up for before they sign up.

And since you won't tell them, I will.

I'll steam roll you in LDS quotes.

You have no foundation in place to compare with anything LDS believe, Russ. How sad.

[Russ]

You have no foundation in place to compare with anything LDS believe, Russ. How sad.

Yeah, I've heard this "you don't know anything about Mormonism" rant before.

What's sad is that when LDS theology is put on the table for discussion, Mormons such as yourself lamely attempt to make the person the topic rather than LDS theology.

When challenged to explain your religion, you run away like a school child; such as you're doing now.

[Father_JD]

You have no foundation in place to compare with anything LDS believe, Russ. How sad.

Hey, Fig...can you say, "deflection"?? :rolleyes:

[Russ]

Hey, Fig...can you say, "deflection"?? :rolleyes:

Hey, Fig, "Can you help?"

That's the introduction to this thread.

Tell me how the spirit children came to be via "procreation" between God and Mother God in LDSism.

[Father_JD]

Hey, Fig, "Can you help?"

That's the introduction to this thread.

Tell me how the spirit children came to be via "procreation" between God and Mother God in LDSism.


Why, Russ...I'll help you out!!

Two, very much incarnate deities, one named Roy and his goddess wife, Sally, were feeling a little frisky one eon day ago, so Roy took Sally behind his throne and gave her a one-two...and about nine months later Sally gave birth to a little SPIRIT baby that came out so fast, one of the celestial mid-wives had to catch the poor lil' spirit with her invisible, spirit catcher's mitt so the poor lil' spirit baby wouldn't float away 'cause then they'd never find it.

And there you have it: Celestial sex among incarnate gods, giving birth to spirit babies! :D

[Russ]

Why, Russ...I'll help you out!!

Two, very much incarnate deities, one named Roy and his goddess wife, Sally, were feeling a little frisky one eon day ago, so Roy took Sally behind his throne and gave her a one-two...and about nine months later Sally gave birth to a little SPIRIT baby that came out so fast, one of the celestial mid-wives had to catch the poor lil' spirit with her invisible, spirit catcher's mitt so the poo lil' spirit baby wouldn't float away and they'd never find it.

And there you have it: Celestial sex among incarnate gods, giving birth to spirit babies! :D

A person made me chuckle.

He said that giving birth to spirit-babies probably wouldn't be much trouble.

It might be, he said, tantamount to p***ing gas.

I suppose that's feasible. :-)

[Vlad III]

Why, Russ...I'll help you out!!

Two, very much incarnate deities, one named Roy and his goddess wife, Sally, were feeling a little frisky one eon day ago, so Roy took Sally behind his throne and gave her a one-two...and about nine months later Sally gave birth to a little SPIRIT baby that came out so fast, one of the celestial mid-wives had to catch the poor lil' spirit with her invisible, spirit catcher's mitt so the poor lil' spirit baby wouldn't float away 'cause then they'd never find it.

And there you have it: Celestial sex among incarnate gods, giving birth to spirit babies! :D

Mockery and attacks.

Your Jesus would be proud!

[Father_JD]

A person made me chuckle.

He said that giving birth to spirit-babies probably wouldn't be much trouble.

It might be, he said, tantamount to p***ing gas.

I suppose that's feasible. :-)


ROFMLOL!!!!!! :p

[Vlad III]

A person made me chuckle.

He said that giving birth to spirit-babies probably wouldn't be much trouble.

It might be, he said, tantamount to p***ing gas.

I suppose that's feasible. :-)

Mockery and attacks.

Your Jesus must be proud.

[Russ]

Mockery and attacks.

Your Jesus would be proud!

Well, hey, I don't recall you calling any Mormon on the carpet for making mockery of the Trinity.

Explain your religion.

[Father_JD]

Mockery and attacks.

Your Jesus would be proud!


Well now, vladdy boy!! No Mormon has stepped forward to tell HOW incarnate deities give birth to godlet SPIRIT babies...It could ONLY have happened in this manner, and this is HOW it happened, according to my warm-fuzzy from God, so you can't tell me I'm wrong.

And YES, "my" Jesus would be proud just as I'm certain He was proud of Elijah, when he MOCKED the FALSE PROPHETS OF BAAL on Mt. Carmel. ;)

[Father_JD]

Mockery and attacks.

Your Jesus must be proud.

Uh, you're not supposed to post the same post over and over, vlad-boy. :rolleyes:

[Vlad III]

And YES, "my" Jesus would be proud

Okay.

Just checking.

[Father_JD]

Okay.

Just checking.

You do that. ;)

Got any defense of your reprehensible doctrine of God having celestial sex with his goddess wives, huh?

Or are you gonna do the "Mormon" thing and DENY that you believe this or deny that Mormonism ever taught this?

[Russ]

Okay.

Just checking.

lol, Vlad. As if you haven't done your fair share of mocking other's beliefs.

You're not fooling this guy.

[Father_JD]

lol, Vlad. As if you haven't done your fair share of mocking other's beliefs.

You're not fooling this guy.

What I wanna know is WHY isn't vlad in "Priesthood Meeting" about this time on a Sunday Mormoning and instead is huffing and puffing about the ramification of Mormon beliefs here on WM? :confused:

[Russ]

You do that. ;)

Got any defense of your reprehensible doctrine of God having celestial sex with his goddess wives, huh?

Or are you gonna do the "Mormon" thing and DENY that you believe this or deny that Mormonism ever taught this?

Hey, Vlad, are you a stand-up Mormon who is really ready to get to the heart of the matter?

Is it true that God and Mother God procreated Jesus, Satan and all of us as brothers and sisters so that we might have opportunity through the "preexistence" to inherit a body and then go on to become Gods ourselves?

You guys don't like to talk about that much, do ya.

[Vlad III]

Uh, you're not supposed to post the same post over and over, vlad-boy. :rolleyes:

twice is hardly 'over and over'

But be sure to follow that rule of yours, okay?

And let people like Russ know too, okay?

:)

[Russ]

What I wanna know is WHY isn't vlad in "Priesthood Meeting" about this time on a Sunday Mormoning and instead is huffing and puffing about the ramification of Mormon beliefs here on WM? :confused:

Possibly because his ward shares a building with another ward and his ward starts later?

[Vlad III]

Possibly because his ward shares a building with another ward and his ward starts later?

LOL.....

You guys are incredibly funny!!

This is a great example of you guys arguing and complaining about something LDS that you THINK you know but in reality are clueless.

Thanks for that! :)

[Father_JD]

Possibly because his ward shares a building with another ward and his ward starts later?

Yep, could very well be. My "ward" (Monument Park 8th) shared the building with the 7th ward, and one Sunday I had forgotten that the two wards had switiched places, and I entered the "Sacrament Meeting" a tad late and didn't recognize one person...only then did I realize my mistake!!

Now, instead of cries of "mockery..how dare you..." I'd love it for a Mormon to tell us how incarnate gods procreate spirit babies.

Last time I looked, the Bible taught, "like begets like"!! :eek:

[Father_JD]

LOL.....

You guys are incredibly funny!!

This is a great example of you guys arguing and complaining about something LDS that you THINK you know but in reality are clueless.

Thanks for that! :)


Does this mean you don't share your ward facility with another ward, vlad? Just how is this "arguing and complaining" about ANYTHING?

I merely wondered how it was you're HERE and not in your ward. :rolleyes:

[Father_JD]

twice is hardly 'over and over'

But be sure to follow that rule of yours, okay?

And let people like Russ know too, okay?

:)

Twice is once to many, vlad.

News flash, vladdy:

We're gonna keep asking the "hard" questions you are so loathe to answer. ;)

[Vlad III]

Does this mean you don't share your ward facility with another ward, vlad? Just how is this "arguing and complaining" about ANYTHING?

I merely wondered how it was you're HERE and not in your ward. :rolleyes:

;)................

[Russ]

Yep, could very well be. My "ward" (Monument Park 8th) shared the building with the 7th ward, and one Sunday I had forgotten that the two wards had switiched places, and I entered the "Sacrament Meeting" a tad late and didn't recognize one person...only then did I realize my mistake!!

Oops! Got to get to church on time, JD. ;-)

A meeting house here in Yuma shares time with THREE wards. I chuckled (inside) when it was announced that the meeting time was going to change. The bishop informed the ward that they were being bumped to a different time slot. People grumbled on the way out.

I'm so thankful that I'm not "ordered" to attend a specific church at a specific time... or else I might not be considered "worthy."

So what if I go to the Baptist church or First Christian?

So what if I go to the 9:30 or the 11:00.

Mormonism really makes me wonder why people put up with it.


Now, instead of cries of "mockery..how dare you..." I'd love it for a Mormon to tell us how incarnate gods procreate spirit babies.

Last time I looked, the Bible taught, "like begets like"!! :eek:

Exactly. God begets God.

Man begets man.

Why don't Mormons get it?

I mean, they give the Bible away on T.V., right?

It's the same Bible that we read.

[Father_JD]

;)................


I got it now!! You're playing "hooky"! ;)

[Vlad III]

i got it now!! You're playing "hooky"! ;)

lol.......

[Russ]

;)................

He ain't sayin' why he's not at church and he ain't sayin' how the spirits came to be.

I'd say he doesn't care about my soul.

If you'll exxccuussee me, I'm off to Mormon.org

[Father_JD]

lol.......


Here's a personal playing "hooky" story for you, Vlad. A couple of friends and I showed up for "Sacrement Meeting", were in the back row...stayed about 5 minutes before getting totally bored, walked out, went to the local McDonalds, ate big Macs, and got back just as it was ending...and no one was the wiser!! :D

[Vlad III]

I'd say he doesn't care about my soul.



LOL....

Awwww, poor Russ. Thinks that if nobody will will his games than 'they must not care about my soul'.

Nope. that aint it.

We just know that you already know EVERYTHING about Mormonism, right?

So your questions don't matter much in light of the fact that YOU already believe you HAVE the answers.

So have fun at mormon.org. :)

[Father_JD]

So, vlad...what's the "official" answer to the "how" of incarnate gods having celestial sex, procreating spirit babies??

[Vlad III]

Here's a personal playing "hooky" story for you, Vlad. A couple of friends and I showed up for "Sacrement Meeting", were in the back row...stayed about 5 minutes before getting totally bored, walked out, went to the local McDonalds, ate big Macs, and got back just as it was ending...and no one was the wiser!! :D

Good for them.

I'm not playing hooky.

[Vlad III]

So, vlad...what's the "official" answer to the "how" of incarnate gods having celestial sex, procreating spirit babies??

uh-oh...Da Fadda is back on his sex thoughts.

[Russ]

LOL....

Awwww, poor Russ. Thinks that if nobody will will his games than 'they must not care about my soul'.

Nope. that aint it.

We just know that you already know EVERYTHING about Mormonism, right?

So your questions don't matter much in light of the fact that YOU already believe you HAVE the answers.

So have fun at mormon.org. :)

I'm by no means an expert on Mormonism. I've repeated that several times.

But I do know this:

Mormon God procreated with Mother God to produce Jesus, Satan and all of us as brothers and sisters. After these "intelligences" were brought into being in such manner as "spirit children" they were then given the chance to take on "tabernacles of flesh and bone" on planet earth in what's known as the "mortal probation."

No?

Explain it to me.

Perhaps I'll find some answers at Mormon.org. I'll be sure to keep you informed.

[Billyray]

uh-oh...Da Fadda is back on his sex thoughts.

Vlad, I think that is a fair question. How does God the Father and his wife take pre-existing intelligences and then procreate, resulting in repackaging this intelligence into a spirt baby?

[Vlad III]

Vlad, I think that is a fair question. How does God the Father and his wife take pre-existing intelligences and then procreate, resulting in repackaging this intelligence into a spirt baby?

Dunno.....

[Father_JD]

Dunno.....

Wow, I'm impressed. An honest answer for a change. :)

You might be only one or two steps away from recognizing the absurdity of your own teaching, Vlad. ;)

[Vlad III]

Wow, I'm impressed. An honest answer for a change. :)

You might be only one or two steps away from recognizing the absurdity of your own teaching, Vlad. ;)

To not know the exact way something works = absurd?

I guess most of the trinitarians I've talked to have yet to see the absurdity of their belief in the trinity.

:)

[Billyray]

I guess most of the trinitarians I've talked to have yet to see the absurdity of their belief in the trinity.


The main problem is that the Bible teaches one God, not many gods. You believe in many gods which makes you polytheistic but also puts you at odds with the Bible.

[Vlad III]

The main problem is that the Bible teaches one God, not many gods. You believe in many gods which makes you polytheistic but also puts you at odds with the Bible.

Not quite, but you're not the first to try and tell me what I believe. :p

[Billyray]

Not quite, but you're not the first to try and tell me what I believe. :p

You don't believe in many gods?

[Vlad III]

You don't believe in many gods?

You said,


The main problem is that the Bible teaches one God, not many gods. You believe in many gods which makes you polytheistic but also puts you at odds with the Bible.

The Bible says,

"For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)

But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him."

---- This is what I believe. And this is Biblical. And so it is apparant that I am more in line with Biblical teaching than you, while you are claiming otherwise.

;):p

[Billyray]

You said,



The Bible says,

"For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)

But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him."

---- This is what I believe. And this is Biblical. And so it is apparant that I am more in line with Biblical teaching than you, while you are claiming otherwise.

So you believe in many gods?

[nrajeff]

Not avoiding. Not evading. Rather, ignoring.
---So you are refusing to tell me about your beliefs. Wow. I am asking you about your beliefs, and you are refusing to tell me. Why are you reluctant to take advantage of this opportunity to teach me about what you believe?

[Vlad III]

So you believe in many gods?

echo-o-o-o-o-o?

[Russ]

---So you are refusing to tell me about your beliefs. Wow. I am asking you about your beliefs, and you are refusing to tell me. Why are you reluctant to take advantage of this opportunity to teach me about what you believe?

My beliefs are already posted in this thread.

Didn't-cha notice?! lol

http://www.waltermartin.com//forums/showthread.php?p=33536#post33536

I'm wondering about your beliefs.

[Vlad III]

---So you are refusing to tell me about your beliefs. Wow. I am asking you about your beliefs, and you are refusing to tell me. Why are you reluctant to take advantage of this opportunity to teach me about what you believe?

No, Jeff...

Russ's beliefs are what he hates about Mormonism.

Notice that everytime he talks about witnessing to others on the street, it's always about 'What Mormons believe."

When you have no foundation of your own, it's much easier to spend all your time trying to dismantle the foundation of others.

[Billyray]

echo-o-o-o-o-o?

Vlad, why can't you answer a simple question?

Do you believe in many gods?

[Vlad III]

Vlad, why can't you answer a simple question?

Do you believe in many gods?

Why can't you comprehend the answer I already gave you.

You know, when you said belief in many gods is not biblical yada yada....

....and I answered your question using the Bible....

I think you might get it if you try a little harder.

;)

[Billyray]

Why can't you comprehend the answer I already gave you.


Let me try again, it is a very simple question.

Do you believe in many gods?

[Russ]

No, Jeff...

Russ's beliefs are what he hates about Mormonism.

Notice that everytime he talks about witnessing to others on the street, it's always about 'What Mormons believe."

When you have no foundation of your own, it's much easier to spend all your time trying to dismantle the foundation of others.

My beliefs are here: http://www.waltermartin.com//forums/showthread.php?p=33536#post33536

Or didn't you notice that?

Tell me about Mormonism. Is it true that the Gods procreated the spirit-children who later took on mortal bodies in an effort to later become Gods over their own planets.

I'll steam roll you in LDS quotes. Don't be weak. Let's go.

[Vlad III]

Let me try again, it is a very simple question.

Do you believe in many gods?

Let me try this again, it is a very simple answer:


""For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)

But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him."

I'm almost (not quite, but almost) amazed that you call LDS beliefs anti-biblical, but then you seem to dismiss my 100% biblical answer to your incessant asking of the same question.

I'm sorry that you want to dismiss the bible in lieu of telling others that they are dismissing the Bible. :D

[Billyray]

Let me try this again, it is a very simple answer:



Do you believe in many gods?

[Vlad III]

Do you believe in many gods?

You seem to be stuck.

That might explain why you cannot understand the answer to your question.

Take a few minutes.....maybe you'll get through the scratched part of your broken record.

[Billyray]

You seem to be stuck.

That might explain why you cannot understand the answer to your question.

Take a few minutes.....maybe you'll get through the scratched part of your broken record.
Vlad you are obviously trying to avoid answering this question honestly. Why is that?

[Vlad III]

Vlad you are obviously trying to avoid answering this question honestly. Why is that?

You mean,

"Why did I call a Mormon's beliefs unbiblical, and then the Mormon answered my question using the Bible to refute what I initailly thought, and so now my only way out is to accuse the Mormon of avoiding my question and being dishonest."

I'm sorry that I cannot help you to understand or comprehend that which has been given you already.

[Billyray]

You mean,

"Why did I call a Mormon's beliefs unbiblical, and then the Mormon answered my question using the Bible to refute what I initailly thought, and so now my only way out is to accuse the Mormon of avoiding my question and being dishonest."

I'm sorry that I cannot help you to understand or comprehend that which has been given you already.
Do you believe in many gods?

[Russ]

You mean,

"Why did I call a Mormon's beliefs unbiblical, and then the Mormon answered my question using the Bible to refute what I initailly thought, and so now my only way out is to accuse the Mormon of avoiding my question and being dishonest."

I'm sorry that I cannot help you to understand or comprehend that which has been given you already.

'Splain it to me one more time.

Is it true that the Gods procreated the spirit-babies and then the spirit-babies p***ed through the "veil of forgetfulness" to earth so that they too might become Gods over their own planets?

[Vlad III]

Do you believe in many gods?

http://www.waltermartin.com//forums/showpost.php?p=33642&postcount=1

[Billyray]

http://www.waltermartin.com//forums/showpost.php?p=33642&postcount=1

Vlad I think that you are incapable of answering this simple question.

Do you believe in many gods?

[Father_JD]

To not know the exact way something works = absurd?

No. The idea that fleshy en***ies can procreate and give birth to spirits. THAT'S absurd to begin with. :eek:


I guess most of the trinitarians I've talked to have yet to see the absurdity of their belief in the trinity.

:)

LOL. Chances are good you don't have a clue what the very Biblical doctrine IS, vlad. :D

[Father_JD]

You seem to be stuck.

That might explain why you cannot understand the answer to your question.

Take a few minutes.....maybe you'll get through the scratched part of your broken record.

Why don't you just give him a simple, direct reply instead of playing your little Mormon reindeer game of "deflection"?? :rolleyes:

[Vlad III]

Vlad I think that you are incapable of answering this simple question.

Do you believe in many gods?

Nope.

You're incapable of accepting the answer given to you straight from your bible.

Oh well.

You can ask again maybe 20 more times, but I'm not going back and forth on this issue anymore.

[Vlad III]

Why don't you just give him a simple, direct reply instead of playing your little Mormon reindeer game of "deflection"?? :rolleyes:

What can be more direct than an appeal to the Bible?

ROFL.....

you critics are so fickle!!!!

You complain that LDS don't give biblically justified answers to your questions.

Then you complain when an LDS gives you a biblically justified answer.

Oh well.

[Billyray]

Nope.

You're incapable of accepting the answer given to you straight from your bible.

Oh well.

You can ask again maybe 20 more times, but I'm not going back and forth on this issue anymore.
Vlad you will not answer because you believe in more than one God which makes you a polytheist and YOU KNOW that this goes against what the Bible teaches.

[Father_JD]

What can be more direct than an appeal to the Bible?

ROFL.....

you critics are so fickle!!!!

You complain that LDS don't give biblically justified answers to your questions.

Then you complain when an LDS gives you a biblically justified answer.

Oh well.


You're not appealing to the Bible, but your cultic misunderstanding of the p***age you favor in quoting...:eek:

[Russianwolfe]

The main problem is that the Bible teaches one God, not many gods. You believe in many gods which makes you polytheistic but also puts you at odds with the Bible.

If what you say is true, then name all the gods and their relationship to each other and the escapades. Shouldn't be hard to do, since polytheist all over the world have done it. So, when can I expect this outline from your to support your claims of our polytheism? I won't hold my breath.

Marvin

[Father_JD]

If what you say is true, then name all the gods and their relationship to each other and the escapades. Shouldn't be hard to do, since polytheist all over the world have done it. So, when can I expect this outline from your to support your claims of our polytheism? I won't hold my breath.

Marvin

Say what??

Mormonism historically teaches:

1. God wasn't always "god".
2. The Mormon god went through "eternal progression" to become "god".
2. He had a "god" before him.
4.Mormons are gonna become gods themselves.


Sure looks like "polytheism" to everyone but Mormons. :rolleyes:

[akaSeerone]

If what you say is true, then name all the gods and their relationship to each other and the escapades. Shouldn't be hard to do, since polytheist all over the world have done it. So, when can I expect this outline from your to support your claims of our polytheism? I won't hold my breath.

Marvin
Why?

They do not exist.

What is the point?

You would be better off opening your Bible and studying the Scriptures that tell us
there is only one God.

You can use Google to find out what Scriptures to study and to view sites showing the Christian side of this issue so you can learn why there is only one God and why the mormon doctrine is in error.

Andy

[Russianwolfe]

Say what??

Mormonism historically teaches:

1. God wasn't always "god".
2. The Mormon god went through "eternal progression" to become "god".
2. He had a "god" before him.
4.Mormons are gonna become gods themselves.


Sure looks like "polytheism" to everyone but Mormons. :rolleyes:

Name all the gods and give a short history of their escapdes.

Marvin.

[Russianwolfe]

Why?

They do not exist.

What is the point?

You would be better off opening your Bible and studying the Scriptures that tell us
there is only one God.

You can use Google to find out what Scriptures to study and to view sites showing the Christian side of this issue so you can learn why there is only one God and why the mormon doctrine is in error.

Andy

Because if we are polytheistic as you claim, then we have to name all the gods we believe in and have history for each of them. That is the way it is done in all the other polytheistic religions on this planet. So please list the gods and their histories.

Marvin

[Billyray]

Because if we are polytheistic as you claim, then we have to name all the gods we believe in and have history for each of them. That is the way it is done in all the other polytheistic religions on this planet. So please list the gods and their histories.

Marvin
Marvin, why is admitting polytheism so hard for you? Vlad is also having a hard time with this same issue.

[nrajeff]

My beliefs are already posted in this thread.
Didn't-cha notice?! lol
http://www.waltermartin.com//forums/showthread.php?p=33536#post33536


So you DO believe that Jesus IS THE TRINITY made manifest in the flesh, therefore whether a person says "Jesus made Satan" or "The Trinity made Satan" it means exactly the same thing?
And how is that NOT modalism?

[Father_JD]

Name all the gods and give a short history of their escapdes.

Marvin.

LOL. Now that's a "trick" question and you know it, Marvin.

Does Mormonism teach that "Elohim" HAD A GOD?

Yes.

Does Mormonism teach that Elohim has GODDESS WIVES?

Yes.

But I'll help you out. I've given granddaddy god the name of "Bubba". :D

You're merely being obstinate, Marvin. :rolleyes:

[nrajeff]

Does Mormonism teach that Elohim has GODDESS WIVES?
Yes.

---Really? You need to provide official doctrine that supports that one, Padre.
You guys usually go apoplectic and mock the Heavenly MOTHER--SINGULAR--doctrine, not mothers. So give us some evidence to support your wives teaching.

[Russianwolfe]

Marvin, why is admitting polytheism so hard for you? Vlad is also having a hard time with this same issue.

You made the claim, now you have to provide the evidence. Put up or shut up. Why is it so hard for you to provide the evidence?

Marvin

[Russianwolfe]

LOL. Now that's a "trick" question and you know it, Marvin.

Does Mormonism teach that "Elohim" HAD A GOD?

Yes.

Does Mormonism teach that Elohim has GODDESS WIVES?

Yes.

But I'll help you out. I've given granddaddy god the name of "Bubba". :D

You're merely being obstinate, Marvin. :rolleyes:

Provide scriptures to support your ***ertion. All you are doing is bloviating.

Marvin

PS. The scriptures need to name the Gods that you claim we believe in beyond the ones that we both believe in.

[James Banta]

lol, Vlad. As if you haven't done your fair share of mocking other's beliefs.

You're not fooling this guy.

All Vlad wants to do here is look for some way of making fun of people that don't believe in Joseph Smith and his imaginary religion.. When it comes to really looking into what Mormonism teaches he has no interest in defending those teachings... Other than he like to argue I have no idea why Vlad bothers with any posting site.. Maybe he should go back to MADB where there is no resistance to "the gospel".. And if someone comes on there and starts asking tough questions they are asked to leave.. So he could go there and not have to deal with real issues.

Here on WM he can ask what he feels are the tough questions and it never asked to leave.. But there is a problem.. He is asked the tough questions here.. And soon those questions overwhelm him and he withdraws from discussion.. IHS jim

[Vlad III]

All Vlad wants to do here is look for some way of making fun of people that don't believe in Joseph Smith and his imaginary religion.. When it comes to really looking into what Mormonism teaches he has no interest in defending those teachings... Other than he like to argue I have no idea why Vlad bothers with any posting site.. Maybe he should go back to MADB where there is no resistance to "the gospel".. And if someone comes on there and starts asking tough questions they are asked to leave.. So he could go there and not have to deal with real issues.

Here on WM he can ask what he feels are the tough questions and it never asked to leave.. But there is a problem.. He is asked the tough questions here.. And soon those questions overwhelm him and he withdraws from discussion.. IHS jim

A) You feel made fun of?????

B) I'm not here to 'make fun', but to help expose the bad logic, double-standards, and hypocrisy of those whose intent is to try and tear down another person's religion only to replace it with....in some cases (like Russ) who knows?

C) You really shouldn't think that just becasue I haven't addressed your 4th AoF you should not ***ume I am at all 'overwhelmed' by your questions.

D) I've never posted at MADB. I've read posts there, but do not post there.

[James Banta]

A) You feel made fun of?????

B) I'm not here to 'make fun', but to help expose the bad logic, double-standards, and hypocrisy of those whose intent is to try and tear down another person's religion only to replace it with....in some cases (like Russ) who knows?

C) You really shouldn't think that just becasue I haven't addressed your 4th AoF you should not ***ume I am at all 'overwhelmed' by your questions.

D) I've never posted at MADB. I've read posts there, but do not post there.


A. I see you trying... You failed..
B. Show me where I have had bad logic, held double standards, or showed any sign of hypocrisy.. You addressed this posting answer to one of mine so there must be something about it that conforms to this attack.. I have even told you to stay mormon.. being such is not the problem. The problem is in idolatry.. Joseph Smith taught idolatry in teaching that there are Gods and not just God..
C. I do ***ume that yes..
D. You should start.. There you won't find any resistance at all to your different gospel or your different Jesus...

IHS jim

[James Banta]

You have no foundation in place to compare with anything LDS believe, Russ. How sad.

Is this a denial that God the Father actually is the literal father of our spirits in a preexistent realm? Is this also a denial of LDS scripture to say that God's purpose is not to bring about the immortality and eternal life of man? Must we go in and define what the LDS church believes immortality and eternal life is and what the difference is between them? You denials of your own doctrine are ridiculous. We all know what the church teaches on these doctrines. Most of us were trained in mormon church meetings, Sunday school, and even seminary.. None of these issues are lies.. The only lie would be to deny that they are mormon doctrine.. IHS jim

[Father_JD]

uh-oh...Da Fadda is back on his sex thoughts.

LOL. Put it on me, huh, while all I'm doing is pointing out the SEXUALIZED beliefs OF MORMONISM.

What a laugh, vladdy-boy! :rolleyes:

[Billyray]

You made the claim, now you have to provide the evidence. Put up or shut up. Why is it so hard for you to provide the evidence?

Marvin

LDS teach
God the Father's Father is a God
God the Father is a God
God the Son is a God
Holy Ghost is a God
You can become a God

Marvin, do you disagree with this?

[Russ]

You made the claim, now you have to provide the evidence. Put up or shut up. Why is it so hard for you to provide the evidence?

Marvin

Rolling on the floor laughing.

The thread is about getting some help with the LDS concept of spirit-children.


http://www.youtube.com/user/MormonDoctrinedotnet has examples of Mormon dodging too.

Is it a "condition?"

Is it a means of answering?

Is it a bird, a plane, a prophet of God?

P.S. How did you put it?

"Put up or shut up. Why is it so hard for you to provide the evidence?"

[Russianwolfe]

LDS teach
God the Father's Father is a God
God the Father is a God
God the Son is a God
Holy Ghost is a God
You can become a God

Marvin, do you disagree with this?

Whether I agree or disagree has nothing to do with what I am asking.

If we are polytheistic, then show the evidence? Why is it so hard for you to provide the evidence? Are you hiding something?

Marvin

[Russianwolfe]

Stll not able to provide the evidence. Why is this such a hard thing do to? The statement was made and all I am asking is to provide the evidence? What are you hiding from?

Marvin




Rolling on the floor laughing.

The thread is about getting some help with the LDS concept of spirit-children.


http://www.youtube.com/user/MormonDoctrinedotnet has examples of Mormon dodging too.

Is it a "condition?"

Is it a means of answering?

Is it a bird, a plane, a prophet of God?

P.S. How did you put it?

"Put up or shut up. Why is it so hard for you to provide the evidence?"

[Billyray]

If we are polytheistic, then show the evidence?

Marvin

Marvin are you so blind that you can't see the evidence when it is staring you in the face?

[Russ]

Stll not able to provide the evidence. Why is this such a hard thing do to? The statement was made and all I am asking is to provide the evidence? What are you hiding from?

Marvin

Not hiding, Marvin. Just not going down Mormon rabbit trails. Not taking the bait. I want to know about spirit-children. Got answer?

How did you put it? "Put up or shut up?"

lol!

[Russianwolfe]

Marvin are you so blind that you can't see the evidence when it is staring you in the face?

Still not able to support your ***ertion, I see. If there is evdience, then show it to me. Provide me with the list of gods, their names and relationships, and their escapades. This is what all other polytheistic religions have, so if you are going to support your ***ertion, you have to show the evidence.

Marvin

[Russianwolfe]

Not hiding, Marvin. Just not going down Mormon rabbit trails. Not taking the bait. I want to know about spirit-children. Got answer?

How did you put it? "Put up or shut up?"

lol!

Tinkling cymbals.

Marvin

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

Still not able to support your ***ertion, I see. If there is evdience, then show it to me. Provide me with the list of gods, their names and relationships, and their escapades. This is what all other polytheistic religions have, so if you are going to support your ***ertion, you have to show the evidence.

Marvin

Great point, Marvin.

If the LDS are polytheists, where is the list of all these other gods that we supposedly have?

Plain and simply, there is none.

But if the antagonists want to continue to milk a dead cow, they can keep on trying, I suppose.

[James Banta]

Great point, Marvin.

If the LDS are polytheists, where is the list of all these other gods that we supposedly have?

Plain and simply, there is none.

But if the antagonists want to continue to milk a dead cow, they can keep on trying, I suppose.

Yes I have a list of the Gods of mormonism.. It was given by the same person that gave the church the BofM, the BofA, the BofMoses, and most of the D&C.. It's Joseph Smith and I know you have seen the address before, especially the part that talks about plural Gods.. These then are the Gods of mormonism:

I have always declared God to be a distinct personage, Jesus Christ a separate and distinct personage from God the Father, and that the Holy Ghost was a distinct personage and a Spirit: and these three cons***ute three distinct personages and three Gods. If this is in accordance with the New Testament, lo and behold! we have three Gods anyhow, and they are plural: and who can contradict it! (History of the Church, Vol. 6, p. 473)

It would seem that lately the whole of the LDS chirch would contradict it.. There seems to b a number of them tat deny the divinity of the Holy Spirit, and Jesus and claim that only the Father is the one true God..

According to Smith the Gods of mormonism are the father, the son, and the holy spirit.. Three seperate beings, three seperate gods..

According to Dictionary.com, Cambridge Dictionary:
Polytheism is the doctrine of or belief in more than one god or in many gods. No worship is required. That that definition I can say that, YES, mormonism teaches and hold polytheistic doctrine.. Those of the church tat believe those doctrines are indeed polytheistic.. Merriam-Webster adds this: belief in or worship of more than one god.. Even they add an "or" and not and "and". With all this data it is safe (if using the English language) to say that mere belief in more than one God make a person or the religion that teaches such a doctrine POLYTHEISTIC..

Do you wish to deny any of this and a teaching of Joseph Smith? Do you wish to deny that Jesus and the Holy Spirit are divine? If Smith is teaching truth them by that teahing he is a polythiest, any that trust his doctrine as being ture are as well... IHS jim

[akaSeerone]

Great point, Marvin.

If the LDS are polytheists, where is the list of all these other gods that we supposedly have?

Plain and simply, there is none.

But if the antagonists want to continue to milk a dead cow, they can keep on trying, I suppose.

Sorry fig....that is a red herring and is also meaningless.

Mormonism teaches that there are an infinite number of Gods, that is all that is relevant here.

And it is meaningless in that it is a false dichotomy.

Andy

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

Sorry fig....that is a red herring and is also meaningless.

Mormonism teaches that there are an infinite number of Gods, that is all that is relevant here.

And it is meaningless in that it is a false dichotomy.

Andy

And who do LDS say is their God? Who do they worship?

Thanks.

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

I have always declared God to be a distinct personage, Jesus Christ a separate and distinct personage from God the Father, and that the Holy Ghost was a distinct personage and a Spirit: and these three cons***ute three distinct personages and three Gods. If this is in accordance with the New Testament, lo and behold! we have three Gods anyhow, and they are plural: and who can contradict it! (History of the Church, Vol. 6, p. 473)

And we worship the Father.

Thanks.

[Russianwolfe]

We both worship the same Gods, we just disagree on their true relationship. That is all.

You gotta do better that this pathetic attempt. You would do better to claim that the Catholics are polytheistic since they believe the Mary became the Queen of Heaven and since Christ is the King of Heaven then that makes them married. At least then you would have named another God that you don't believe in.

Still waiting for the real evidence and not just a smoke screen.

Marvin




Yes I have a list of the Gods of mormonism.. It was given by the same person that gave the church the BofM, the BofA, the BofMoses, and most of the D&C.. It's Joseph Smith and I know you have seen the address before, especially the part that talks about plural Gods.. These then are the Gods of mormonism:

I have always declared God to be a distinct personage, Jesus Christ a separate and distinct personage from God the Father, and that the Holy Ghost was a distinct personage and a Spirit: and these three cons***ute three distinct personages and three Gods. If this is in accordance with the New Testament, lo and behold! we have three Gods anyhow, and they are plural: and who can contradict it! (History of the Church, Vol. 6, p. 473)

It would seem that lately the whole of the LDS chirch would contradict it.. There seems to b a number of them tat deny the divinity of the Holy Spirit, and Jesus and claim that only the Father is the one true God..

According to Smith the Gods of mormonism are the father, the son, and the holy spirit.. Three seperate beings, three seperate gods..

According to Dictionary.com, Cambridge Dictionary:
Polytheism is the doctrine of or belief in more than one god or in many gods. No worship is required. That that definition I can say that, YES, mormonism teaches and hold polytheistic doctrine.. Those of the church tat believe those doctrines are indeed polytheistic.. Merriam-Webster adds this: belief in or worship of more than one god.. Even they add an "or" and not and "and". With all this data it is safe (if using the English language) to say that mere belief in more than one God make a person or the religion that teaches such a doctrine POLYTHEISTIC..

Do you wish to deny any of this and a teaching of Joseph Smith? Do you wish to deny that Jesus and the Holy Spirit are divine? If Smith is teaching truth them by that teahing he is a polythiest, any that trust his doctrine as being ture are as well... IHS jim

[akaSeerone]

And who do LDS say is their God? Who do they worship?

Thanks.
So....I take it you are acknowledging that mormons believe in many gods, but only worship one.

That is not the God Christians worship and it proves that mormons do not worship the God of the Bible.

Andy

[akaSeerone]

We both worship the same Gods, we just disagree on their true relationship. That is all.

You gotta do better that this pathetic attempt. You would do better to claim that the Catholics are polytheistic since they believe the Mary became the Queen of Heaven and since Christ is the King of Heaven then that makes them married. At least then you would have named another God that you don't believe in.

Still waiting for the real evidence and not just a smoke screen.

Marvin

The pathetic attempt is in your court....you have to do more than saying nug-huh.

Instead of just crying wolf all the time....Prove Jim wrong.

There are no Gods, as the Bible teaches us, there is only God...not Gods, so you got that wrong and your reply is meaningless.

Andy

[nrajeff]

Uh, Andy, does the Bible teach that sons of the Most High are gods?

a) yes
b) no

[akaSeerone]

Why do you try to equate gods with Gods?

Andy

[James Banta]

Why do you try to equate gods with Gods?

Andy


He doesn't know that the rules of the people the judges and the kings were called mighty ones or elohim's.. The idols of the land that the people ended up bowing down to were also call elohim's.. Was David a god? And the Baals were the gods? OR is God the only God that has ever existed.. A lot depends on the context of the p***age not just the word elohim. After all. The Bible say that John baptized and Jesus wept.. Yes it does say that, but the context reveals the real occurrences.. IHS jim

[nrajeff]

Why do you try to equate gods with Gods?

Andy

---Ancient Hebrew has no upper and lower case letters, Andy. The same word--- "elohim"--is used whether the beings referred to are heavenly deities, or mortals who are being called offspring of those deities.

[nrajeff]

He doesn't know that the rules of the people the judges and the kings were called mighty ones or elohim's.. The idols of the land that the people ended up bowing down to were also call elohim's..
--I know.


Was David a god?
--What verse calls David el?


And the Baals were the gods?
---Yes. They were false deities, or unauthorized deities for ancient Israel to worship, or both, but the word is the same. No lower case g to distinguish them in Hebrew.

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

So....I take it you are acknowledging that mormons believe in many gods, but only worship one.

That is not the God Christians worship and it proves that mormons do not worship the God of the Bible.

Andy

If we are believe many gods exist, but only worship One, how is that prove that the One God that we worship is not the God of the Bible?

[James Banta]

--I know.


--What verse calls David el?


---Yes. They were false deities, or unauthorized deities for ancient Israel to worship, or both, but the word is the same. No lower case g to distinguish them in Hebrew.

David was king.. That made him a mighty one, a judge in Israel.. One of those that Psalm 82 was pointed at.. Are you ready to deny that king David was in that position? There were never any authorized deities for Israel. There was only the Lord God. Any other deity was idolatry.. Since I don't read Hebrew we will have to go with the position David held as king..

I use the lower case 'god' for the reason that you understand my contempt for anything or anyone that makes themselves out to be a god.. Hebrew like Greek has no lower or upper case letters it all just Hebrew, or Greek.. The only way to know the difference is in the context of the p***age.. IHS jim

[James Banta]

If we are believe many gods exist, but only worship One, how is that prove that the One God that we worship is not the God of the Bible?

Because the God of the Bible says that He and He alone is God.. That no other being has ever been God and no other being will ever be God. To believe that there are other gods that exist is to call God a liar.. If you do that we know that the idea of many gods existing is the lie of men not a lie of God who say there are none.. IHS jim

[James Banta]

We both worship the same Gods, we just disagree on their true relationship. That is all.

You gotta do better that this pathetic attempt. You would do better to claim that the Catholics are polytheistic since they believe the Mary became the Queen of Heaven and since Christ is the King of Heaven then that makes them married. At least then you would have named another God that you don't believe in.

Still waiting for the real evidence and not just a smoke screen.

Marvin

I am not here to discuss Roman Catholicism. If I were those comments would come up. I am here to reach out to those of the mormon church whose doctrine of God is polytheist inspite of the word God gave us to the contrary.

Is the God of mormonism self existent? Has there ever been a time in the vast eternity of the past when He is not God? Did He create ALL things or just push around what was already there? In these question is your proof that we worship a different God that the god of Joseph Smith.. IHS jim

[akaSeerone]

---Ancient Hebrew has no upper and lower case letters, Andy. The same word--- "elohim"--is used whether the beings referred to are heavenly deities, or mortals who are being called offspring of those deities.
And that is why context is so important.

The same p***age also says those "gods" are men and will die like men, so how can they possibly be considered deity in the same sense that the Trinity is?

Expanded Biblical context tells us there is one and only one God and there never has been or will be any other Gods, so your point is in error.

Sorry to burst your anti-Christian lds mormon bubble, but you nor any mormon will ever achieve Godhood and if you could get but a glimpse into the nature of God you would understand why there can be only the one God.

Andy

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

Because the God of the Bible says that He and He alone is God...

And that is true. Our only God is Him.



That no other being has ever been God and no other being will ever be God. To believe that there are other gods that exist is to call God a liar.. If you do that we know that the idea of many gods existing is the lie of men not a lie of God who say there are none.. IHS jim

You have to stretch the Bible like a rubber band to get that out of it, but be my guest if it makes you feel good about yourself.

Thanks.

[akaSeerone]

And that is true. Our only God is Him.



You have to stretch the Bible like a rubber band to get that out of it, but be my guest if it makes you feel good about yourself.

Thanks.
Just how phony can you be fig....you are truly living up to your name.

You are twisting what Jim said and it is not Jim stretching anything.

The Bible is very plain on it....there is only God....Never has been any other and never will be any other.

Bottom line....you working your way to godhood is a waste of time....it has never happened to anyone else and never will happen to anyone else.

Andy

[nrajeff]

David was king.. That made him a mighty one, a judge in Israel.
--You still have not provided any verses that refer to David using the word el. If you want to try to show that all kings, regardless where they ruled, were referred to as gods, go for it.

And what was your answer to this question?
Andy, does the Bible teach that sons of the Most High are gods?

a) yes
b) no




There were never any authorized deities for Israel.
--That news will come as a shock to Yahweh. :)


I use the lower case 'god' for the reason that you understand my contempt for anything or anyone that makes themselves out to be a god..
--Well, of course you are free to have contempt for anyone who tries to make HIMSELF out to be a deity, Andy. What do you think of CS Lewis thoughts about God being willing and able to make a god out of YOU if you will let Him? Got contempt for that idea, too?

[James Banta]

And that is true. Our only God is Him.



You have to stretch the Bible like a rubber band to get that out of it, but be my guest if it makes you feel good about yourself.

Thanks.

If you say that only the Father is God, you deny the teaching od Joseph Smith, You deny the words of the Bible that says the Word is God. You deny the teachings of the Apostle Peter when He taught that the Holy Spirit is God.. If you wish to deny the deity of Jesus and the Holy Spirit do so just come out and say that Jesus Is not God, and that that Holy Spirit (Ghost) is not God.. I see you slitting God into units that you like instead of just accepting what the Bible Says He is.. IHS jim

[James Banta]

--You still have not provided any verses that refer to David using the word el. If you want to try to show that all kings, regardless where they ruled, were referred to as gods, go for it.

And what was your answer to this question?
Andy, does the Bible teach that sons of the Most High are gods?

a) yes
b) no


--That news will come as a shock to Yahweh. :)


--Well, of course you are free to have contempt for anyone who tries to make HIMSELF out to be a deity, Andy. What do you think of CS Lewis thoughts about God being willing and able to make a god out of YOU if you will let Him? Got contempt for that idea, too?


I thought I explained that.. I haven't a verse that says David was a god.. I have verses that say he was a mighty man.. A man of valor.. There are many verses that call such as that gods among the people.. I thought that was clear and agreed?

I know of verses that call the rulers of the people gods. It could be said that Psalm 82:1 calls the angelic host gods. It could be seen that way.. Then again it could be said that David being a ruler is the kind of person that is pointed to in this verse as one of the gods. Jesus used this p***age to put down the Pharisees I have seen mormons use it to show that men are called gods. I guess I can use it to show that angels or the kings are the mighty ones in verse one.. I hurt for those that misuse the scripture to try to turn God into a mere idol.. That is what mormonism does.. And all on the say so of one man. A man who couldn't decide what he saw one morning in a grove of trees.. Was it just Jesus as the version Smith recorded in his own handwriting, or was it two separate Gods as the official version recorded? You do understand that both were written many years after the event, but who could forget an event like that right? Then why are there so many different versions? IHS jim

[Father_JD]

---Really? You need to provide official doctrine that supports that one, Padre.

Yeah, really, jeff. That's what I was taught ("official" or not) at the Mounument Park 8th Ward, SLC in the 60's, jeff. :eek:



You guys usually go apoplectic and mock the Heavenly MOTHER--SINGULAR--doctrine, not mothers. So give us some evidence to support your wives teaching.


Uh, jeff...don't spout off at me! It was your Bro. Brig who went on and on about "celestial wives". :eek:

Oh...guess what? There is NO "heavenly mother". :rolleyes:

[Father_JD]

Provide scriptures to support your ***ertion. All you are doing is bloviating.

Marvin

PS. The scriptures need to name the Gods that you claim we believe in beyond the ones that we both believe in.


Arbitrary standard here, Marvin. You don't need specific scripture to "prove" Mormon POLYTHEISM.

It's right there in the FABRIC of your religion. :rolleyes:

[Russianwolfe]

Arbitrary standard here, Marvin. You don't need specific scripture to "prove" Mormon POLYTHEISM.

It's right there in the FABRIC of your religion. :rolleyes:

Then show it. Otherwise, stop bloviating.

If we are polytheistic then we should follow the pattern that other religions that are polytheistic follow. Name the other Gods and their relationships and include something of their escapades. Otherwise admit that we don't follow the pattern and you are misusing the word.

Marin

[Billyray]

Then show it. Name the other Gods and their relationships and include something of their escapades.

Marin
Encyclopedia of Mormonism
Godhead
"Latter-day Saints believe in God the Father; his Son, Jesus Christ; and the Holy Ghost (A of F 1). These three Gods form the Godhead, which holds the keys of power over the universe. Each member of the Godhead is an independent personage, separate and distinct from the other two, the three being in perfect unity and harmony with each other (AF, chap. 2)."
http://eom.byu.edu/index.php/Godhead


Polytheism
Main Entry: poly·the·ism
Pronunciation: \ˈpä-lē-(ˌ)thē-ˌi-zəm\
Function: noun
Etymology: French polytheisme, from Late Greek polytheos polytheistic, from Greek, of many gods, from poly- + theos god
Date: 1613
Belief in or worship of more than one god
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/polytheism

[Russianwolfe]

Encyclopedia of Mormonism
Godhead
"Latter-day Saints believe in God the Father; his Son, Jesus Christ; and the Holy Ghost (A of F 1). These three Gods form the Godhead, which holds the keys of power over the universe. Each member of the Godhead is an independent personage, separate and distinct from the other two, the three being in perfect unity and harmony with each other (AF, chap. 2)."
http://eom.byu.edu/index.php/Godhead


Polytheism
Main Entry: poly·the·ism
Pronunciation: \ˈpä-lē-(ˌ)thē-ˌi-zəm\
Function: noun
Etymology: French polytheisme, from Late Greek polytheos polytheistic, from Greek, of many gods, from poly- + theos god
Date: 1613
Belief in or worship of more than one god
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/polytheism

What have you shown? Not what I asked for!! Again you have posted a non-answer. We both believe in these 3. The difference is in how we believe about them. Don't forget that the Jews reject all of the illogic you use to define these three as 1 God and say that you are polytheistic.

Again I ask, show me from the scriptures, the names of the Gods that we worship other than the ones we have in common, their relationships and their escapades. This is the pattern of polytheistic religions all over the world. If you want to accuse us of being polytheistic then show us the evidence.

We worship the Father in the name of Jesus Christ by the power of the Holy Ghost. We pray to the Father in the name of Christ as Christ instructed. And we bear testimony of Jesus Christ by the power of the Holy Ghost just as the Apostles did in Acts. So we don't worship all three but we do as Christ instructed. If that is polytheism then you are polytheistic also.

Marvin

[Billyray]

What have you shown? Not what I asked for!! Again you have posted a non-answer. We both believe in these 3. The difference is in how we believe about them. Don't forget that the Jews reject all of the illogic you use to define these three as 1 God and say that you are polytheistic.
Marvin
Marvin, do you believe in one God or many gods?


Don't forget my reference, this may help you.

Encyclopedia of Mormonism
Godhead
"Latter-day Saints believe in God the Father; his Son, Jesus Christ; and the Holy Ghost (A of F 1). These three Gods form the Godhead, which holds the keys of power over the universe. Each member of the Godhead is an independent personage, separate and distinct from the other two, the three being in perfect unity and harmony with each other (AF, chap. 2)."
http://eom.byu.edu/index.php/Godhead

[Billyray]

So we don't worship all three but we do as Christ instructed.
Marvin

So you only worship God the Father? How about Jesus, do you worship him?

[Russianwolfe]

So you only worship God the Father? How about Jesus, do you worship him?

What was Christ's instruction?

Marvin

[James Banta]

What was Christ's instruction?

Marvin

We are commanded to worship the Lord our God and Him only.. Jesus is YHWH, the Lord our God!!! He accepted worship from Thomas as such, I offer Him the same. He is My Lord and My God (John 20:28).. IHS jim

[Billyray]

What was Christ's instruction?

Marvin

Marvin, you don't really follow what the Bible teaches, that is why I asked you what YOU believe. You have a hard time directly answering a question. Here it is again if you choose to answer it.

So you only worship God the Father? How about Jesus, do you worship him?

[Russianwolfe]

Marvin, you don't really follow what the Bible teaches, that is why I asked you what YOU believe. You have a hard time directly answering a question. Here it is again if you choose to answer it.

So you only worship God the Father? How about Jesus, do you worship him?

I learned from you how to avoid a direct answer by asking questions. I have yet to see you answer any question directly without asking some other question that has very little to do with the post you are suppose to be addressing.

Marvin

[Russianwolfe]

We are commanded to worship the Lord our God and Him only.. Jesus is YHWH, the Lord our God!!! He accepted worship from Thomas as such, I offer Him the same. He is My Lord and My God (John 20:28).. IHS jim

I asked what was Christ's instruction not what the commandment is.

And Christ's instruction: In that day, ye shall ask me nothing but whatsoever you ask the Father in my name, which is right, that ye shall receive.

So who are we to worship? Christ said it was the Father. Do you have a higher authority to contradict this instruction?

Marvin

[ATX]

I asked what was Christ's instruction not what the commandment is.

And Christ's instruction: In that day, ye shall ask me nothing but whatsoever you ask the Father in my name, which is right, that ye shall receive.

So who are we to worship? Christ said it was the Father. Do you have a higher authority to contradict this instruction?

Marvin

I realize what a hard/confusing subject this is for mormons. On one hand , the mormon 'party-line' is exactly what you are saying, yet on the other hand, the mormonjesus is worshipped in the bom and declared as worshipped by many of your leaders. I know, I know-"what's a good mormon to do"?

Marvin, the reason we, Christians that is, pray in Jesus's Name is because without Him, we cannot come before God. It is thru Christ that we are able to "come boldly unto the throne of grace". This "instruction", as you put it, doesn't say anything about worshipping only The Father.

[James Banta]

I asked what was Christ's instruction not what the commandment is.

And Christ's instruction: In that day, ye shall ask me nothing but whatsoever you ask the Father in my name, which is right, that ye shall receive.

So who are we to worship? Christ said it was the Father. Do you have a higher authority to contradict this instruction?

Marvin

Is this the p***age you are speaking of for your authority?

John 4:23-24
But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
Does this p***age say we aren't to worship Jesus or the Holy Spirit? No it says when true worshipers worship the Father (Who is a Spirit) they must worship in spirit and in truth.. Mormonism denies that the Father is Spirit how then can their worship be in spirit or truth? You may as well call the god of Mormonism just what it is, Baal worship.. After all Baal had a body, a wife, and offspring.. He is must be the mormon god..

As Christians have said many times you give the name of Jesus to anything from a flower in your garden to the tin Lizzy in the garage. In your case you ***ign this name to a being you give limitations and lesser status to as a god than you are willing to give to the Father.. You actually say that Jesus became a God after the Father was already there and God. This is just what Isaiah 43:10 says would NOT happen it says that "No God will be formed after Him.." But ignore what the Bible teaches.

Ignore and twist shift from what it says to what you want it to say. I have pointed out one this channel a few times the verses mormonism uses to point to it's self as the only true church and yet those verse DON'T say what the church teach they say Look again at Ezek 37:16-22. God interpreters the p***age for us right there in the text.. And Isaiah 29:11-12 where even the unlearned man can't read the book. But mormonism have twisted this to be a prophecies of the BofM not what God actually intended.. In short a stick is a stick it is not a scroll.. Then a scroll is mentioned it is stated to be a scroll. Never anywhere in the bible is the word of God said to be a stick.. So what was done to these p***ages.. TWISTED, having men who know nothing about Biblical ways or times forcing their modern reason into it making them to say what they want hem to say instead of just allowing God to teach us..
So who does Mormonism hold to be God? Just an idol formed in the mind of a 19th century man.. IHS jim

[James Banta]

I asked what was Christ's instruction not what the commandment is.

And Christ's instruction: In that day, ye shall ask me nothing but whatsoever you ask the Father in my name, which is right, that ye shall receive.

So who are we to worship? Christ said it was the Father. Do you have a higher authority to contradict this instruction?

Marvin

Just what is a commandment but an instruction to do and live the way that is acceptable to God? Yes Jesus said to worship the Father. The Father is God after all.. In saying this Jesus didn't tell us NOT to worship Him. As I have shown He accepted worship from Thomas without rebuke.. The Holy Spirit is also God and I have praised Him and worshiped Him often for the gifts He has given me and the direction and comfort He brings to my life.. He is Great and greatly to be praised.. For He is God, all the God there is or ever can be.. He is the Being by which the earthy Body of Jesus was conceived.. He is the the Mighty God the Everlasting Father.. He is God.. I will always bow the keen to Him, Pray to Him and worship Him...

While I obey Jesus is worshiping the Father. I obey the Commandment to worship and Honor God and worship Him only.. He is The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.. He is the YHWH my God.. There is no other.. IHS jim

[Russianwolfe]

Wrong scripture!!! And here am I, a mere mormon, to have to teach you about the Bible? Who'd o' thunk it!!!!

Marvin



Is this the p***age you are speaking of for your authority?

John 4:23-24
But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
Does this p***age say we aren't to worship Jesus or the Holy Spirit? No it says when true worshipers worship the Father (Who is a Spirit) they must worship in spirit and in truth.. Mormonism denies that the Father is Spirit how then can their worship be in spirit or truth? You may as well call the god of Mormonism just what it is, Baal worship.. After all Baal had a body, a wife, and offspring.. He is must be the mormon god..

As Christians have said many times you give the name of Jesus to anything from a flower in your garden to the tin Lizzy in the garage. In your case you ***ign this name to a being you give limitations and lesser status to as a god than you are willing to give to the Father.. You actually say that Jesus became a God after the Father was already there and God. This is just what Isaiah 43:10 says would NOT happen it says that "No God will be formed after Him.." But ignore what the Bible teaches.

Ignore and twist shift from what it says to what you want it to say. I have pointed out one this channel a few times the verses mormonism uses to point to it's self as the only true church and yet those verse DON'T say what the church teach they say Look again at Ezek 37:16-22. God interpreters the p***age for us right there in the text.. And Isaiah 29:11-12 where even the unlearned man can't read the book. But mormonism have twisted this to be a prophecies of the BofM not what God actually intended.. In short a stick is a stick it is not a scroll.. Then a scroll is mentioned it is stated to be a scroll. Never anywhere in the bible is the word of God said to be a stick.. So what was done to these p***ages.. TWISTED, having men who know nothing about Biblical ways or times forcing their modern reason into it making them to say what they want hem to say instead of just allowing God to teach us..
So who does Mormonism hold to be God? Just an idol formed in the mind of a 19th century man.. IHS jim

[Russianwolfe]

So then you are polytheistic!!!! You have just demonstrated a perfect polytheistic mind-set. Worship each God for the things he and he alone has done for you!!!! I don't think the pot can call the kettle black anymore.

Marvin



Just what is a commandment but an instruction to do and live the way that is acceptable to God? Yes Jesus said to worship the Father. The Father is God after all.. In saying this Jesus didn't tell us NOT to worship Him. As I have shown He accepted worship from Thomas without rebuke.. The Holy Spirit is also God and I have praised Him and worshiped Him often for the gifts He has given me and the direction and comfort He brings to my life.. He is Great and greatly to be praised.. For He is God, all the God there is or ever can be.. He is the Being by which the earthy Body of Jesus was conceived.. He is the the Mighty God the Everlasting Father.. He is God.. I will always bow the keen to Him, Pray to Him and worship Him...

While I obey Jesus is worshiping the Father. I obey the Commandment to worship and Honor God and worship Him only.. He is The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.. He is the YHWH my God.. There is no other.. IHS jim

[James Banta]

Wrong scripture!!! And here am I, a mere mormon, to have to teach you about the Bible? Who'd o' thunk it!!!!

Marvin

Interesting that I am willing to step out and quote the scripture that may have something to do with you were talking about, that is if it is given the incorrect spin.. But you who are saying that the Bible supports what you are saying will not put the authority of the Bible behind your perverted statements.. I have debunked the idea that the Father is the Only God to be worship in the verse I gave and all you could do was say "Nope not the verse I was thinking of".. Well come out and do some teaching if you have a truth from the Bible that supports your position if not we will understand... We will understand that you don't know what you are talking about!! You said I need you to teach me but there is no teaching here just a remark that I can't read your mind.. SO TEACH..

I have shown you that mormonism has twisted the Bible to say what it wants it to say and not what it says.. You won't even defend the perverse of LDS doctrine. I can only say that's because there is no defence.. IHS jim

[James Banta]

So then you are polytheistic!!!! You have just demonstrated a perfect polytheistic mind-set. Worship each God for the things he and he alone has done for you!!!! I don't think the pot can call the kettle black anymore.

Marvin

Not one thing I said in my post was in any way polytheistic in fact I said clearly that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are that one true God the YHWH.. That is clearly monotheistic. No admission from me that:


That the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost cons***ute three distinct personages and three Gods. If this is in accordance with the New Testament, lo and behold! we have three Gods anyhow, and they are plural; and who can contradict it? (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 1843–44, p. 370-373)
These are the gods of mormonism not the God of the Christian Church.. How you said my remarks are polythistic is just your mormon misunderstanding of the doctrine of the Trinity.. IHS jim

[Russianwolfe]

Not one thing I said in my post was in any way polytheistic in fact I said clearly that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are that one true God the YHWH.. That is clearly monotheistic. No admission from me that:


That the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost cons***ute three distinct personages and three Gods. If this is in accordance with the New Testament, lo and behold! we have three Gods anyhow, and they are plural; and who can contradict it? (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 1843–44, p. 370-373)
These are the gods of mormonism not the God of the Christian Church.. How you said my remarks are polythistic is just your mormon misunderstanding of the doctrine of the Trinity.. IHS jim

You can deny it all you want, but what you said, inspite of the codicil at the end, was a perfect polytheistic statement. No matter how you squirm and dodge, what you said was polytheistic.

As I have described before, all power and authority come from God the Father. Jesus is not God because of himself but because of the power and authority that was given to him by the Father. The same for the Holy Ghost. We worship the Father. The Plan of Salvation is the Father's plan. We are his children and all things that we have and receive are from him. That is the God we worship. The mediator between God and man is Jesus Christ and has been ever since the Fall. It is in his name that we worship the Father. The Holy Ghost is the testator of the covenant and is such by the authority and power of the Father. It is by the power of the Holy Ghost, such power as the Father has given him, that we worship the Father. And as Christ has instructed, we ask Christ nothing, but we ask the Father in the name of Jesus Christ for that which is right.

If this is polytheistic then you are also polytheistic.

Marvin

[Father_JD]

Then show it. Otherwise, stop bloviating.

If we are polytheistic then we should follow the pattern that other religions that are polytheistic follow. Name the other Gods and their relationships and include something of their escapades. Otherwise admit that we don't follow the pattern and you are misusing the word.

Marin

Your games will not work here, Marvin.

Do you believe God the Father HAD A GOD?

Yes or no?

Do you believe that you, too will be a GOD someday?

Yes or no.

We both know the answers are YES to both questions.

Ergo, you ARE polytheistic. :rolleyes:

[Russianwolfe]

Your games will not work here, Marvin.

Do you believe God the Father HAD A GOD?

Yes or no?

Do you believe that you, too will be a GOD someday?

Yes or no.

We both know the answers are YES to both questions.

Ergo, you ARE polytheistic. :rolleyes:

You made the accusation, so now I am asking for you to provide the proof in the pattern that all other polytheistic religions have followed. Your questions don't matter because you have yet to provide any evidence that your accusation is true.

Marvin

[Billyray]

You made the accusation, so now I am asking for you to provide the proof in the pattern that all other polytheistic religions have followed. Your questions don't matter because you have yet to provide any evidence that your accusation is true.

Marvin

Marvin, I have given you proof on a number occasions but you have completely ignored it. Mormonism is a polytheistic religion by definition, because you believe in more than one god.


Encyclopedia of Mormonism
Godhead
"Latter-day Saints believe in God the Father; his Son, Jesus Christ; and the Holy Ghost (A of F 1). These three Gods form the Godhead, which holds the keys of power over the universe. Each member of the Godhead is an independent personage, separate and distinct from the other two, the three being in perfect unity and harmony with each other (AF, chap. 2)."
http://eom.byu.edu/index.php/Godhead


Polytheism
Main Entry: poly·the·ism
Pronunciation: \ˈpä-lē-(ˌ)thē-ˌi-zəm\
Function: noun
Etymology: French polytheisme, from Late Greek polytheos polytheistic, from Greek, of many gods, from poly- + theos god
Date: 1613
Belief in or worship of more than one god
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/polytheism

[James Banta]

[Russianwolfe;35306]You can deny it all you want, but what you said, inspite of the codicil at the end, was a perfect polytheistic statement. No matter how you squirm and dodge, what you said was polytheistic.

This is what you call polytheistic:

Yes Jesus said to worship the Father. The Father is God after all.. In saying this Jesus didn't tell us NOT to worship Him. As I have shown He accepted worship from Thomas without rebuke.. The Holy Spirit is also God and I have praised Him and worshiped Him often for the gifts He has given me and the direction and comfort He brings to my life.. He is Great and greatly to be praised.. For He is God, all the God there is or ever can be.. He is the Person by which the earthy Body of Jesus was conceived.. He is the the Mighty God the Everlasting Father.. He is God.. I will always bow the keen to Him, Pray to Him and worship Him... While I obey Jesus in worshiping the Father. I obey the Commandment to worship and Honor God and worship Him only.. He is The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.. He is the YHWH my God.. There is no other.. I guess calling my statement polytheistic is why you don't see polytheism in mormonism..



As I have described before, all power and authority come from God the Father.
Jesus is not God because of himself but because of the power and authority that was given to him by the Father. The same for the Holy Ghost. We worship the Father. The Plan of Salvation is the Father's plan. We are his children and all things that we have and receive are from him. That is the God we worship. The mediator between God and man is Jesus Christ and has been ever since the Fall. It is in his name that we worship the Father. The Holy Ghost is the testator of the covenant and is such by the authority and power of the Father. It is by the power of the Holy Ghost, such power as the Father has given him, that we worship the Father. And as Christ has instructed, we ask Christ nothing, but we ask the Father in the name of Jesus Christ for that which is right.

By this you are showing that you believe that the Father was God before Jesus, before the Holy Spirit and they became Gods after the Father existed.. This is in direct violation to what God told us in Isaiah 43:10: No God will be formed after me.. or in Isaiah 44:8 that God knows of no other God but Himself.. You say that He created Jesus and the Holy Spirit, yet He is not aware that they have become Gods inspite of His ***ertion that there are no others.. Never mind what God says He must be dumb.. At least the God of the mormons is.. He lies about the formation of other Gods then doesn't know that He created them..

We, mankind were born as a special creation with an inborn longing for God.. But to become a child of God required an act of God's grace and a faith that He gives to us. When we turn (repent) to Him acknowledging who we are before Him, and Who He is in the Universe, He regenerates us and adopts us and we are spiritually born of Him, and we truly are His children heirs of His Kingdom.. Without that death awaits us as does the Lake of Fire..


If this is polytheistic then you are also polytheistic
If you can call Joseph Smith wrong saying that there are three Gods. If you reject the idea for all time that you will have any opportunity to EVER be a God like the Father. If you reject the idea that God was ever a mortal man who had a God who created (organized) him then I will take back my belief that you are a polytheist. If you hold those idea as truth then you are nothing like me. You are a polytheist... I am a Trinitarian.. I teach that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, though being three separate Persons are one Being, ONE GOD...

IHS jim

[James Banta]

Your games will not work here, Marvin.

Do you believe God the Father HAD A GOD?

Yes or no?

Do you believe that you, too will be a GOD someday?

Yes or no.

We both know the answers are YES to both questions.

Ergo, you ARE polytheistic. :rolleyes:

He doesn't even need to go that far.. He believe Joseph Smith that the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit are three Gods... That is enough to be called a polytheist.. If Marvin wants to say that Smith lied and that these three Persons are one Being, ONE God that would be different but that is not mormonism. That is not Marvin.. Marvin believes that Smith was a prophet not a liar.. IHS jim

[James Banta]

You can deny it all you want, but what you said, inspite of the codicil at the end, was a perfect polytheistic statement. No matter how you squirm and dodge, what you said was polytheistic.

As I have described before, all power and authority come from God the Father. Jesus is not God because of himself but because of the power and authority that was given to him by the Father. The same for the Holy Ghost. We worship the Father. The Plan of Salvation is the Father's plan. We are his children and all things that we have and receive are from him. That is the God we worship. The mediator between God and man is Jesus Christ and has been ever since the Fall. It is in his name that we worship the Father. The Holy Ghost is the testator of the covenant and is such by the authority and power of the Father. It is by the power of the Holy Ghost, such power as the Father has given him, that we worship the Father. And as Christ has instructed, we ask Christ nothing, but we ask the Father in the name of Jesus Christ for that which is right.

If this is polytheistic then you are also polytheistic.

Marvin

Since you won't do it let me show you the difference in these English terms..
Polytheist:
the doctrine of or belief in more than one god or in many gods.
Trinitarian
a person who believes in the doctrine of the Trinity. The Trinity is the union of three Persons (Father, Son, and Holy Ghost) in one threefold personality of the one Divine Being.

I don't disrespect you for not knowing the difference.. IHS jim

[Russianwolfe]

Marvin, I have given you proof on a number occasions but you have completely ignored it. Mormonism is a polytheistic religion by definition, because you believe in more than one god.

It is not that simple. I asked that you provide evidence for your claim in the pattern of polytheistic religions the world over, not just a simple general defintion. If we are polytheistic then show me the evidence that fulfills the request I have made. Else we are not polytheistic as you claim.

Marvin

[Billyray]

It is not that simple. I asked that you provide evidence for your claim in the pattern of polytheistic religions the world over, not just a simple general defintion. If we are polytheistic then show me the evidence that fulfills the request I have made. Else we are not polytheistic as you claim.

Marvin

Marvin, I have already given you this information. You are polytheistic by definition. Why do you feel that you can change the definition a word? The definition of polytheism is "belief in or worship of more than one god". You believe in more than one god, that makes you a polytheist by definition.

Encyclopedia of Mormonism
Godhead
"Latter-day Saints believe in God the Father; his Son, Jesus Christ; and the Holy Ghost (A of F 1). These three Gods form the Godhead, which holds the keys of power over the universe. Each member of the Godhead is an independent personage, separate and distinct from the other two, the three being in perfect unity and harmony with each other (AF, chap. 2)."
http://eom.byu.edu/index.php/Godhead


Polytheism
Main Entry: poly·the·ism
Pronunciation: \ˈpä-lē-(ˌ)thē-ˌi-zəm\
Function: noun
Etymology: French polytheisme, from Late Greek polytheos polytheistic, from Greek, of many gods, from poly- + theos god
Date: 1613
Belief in or worship of more than one god
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/polytheism

[Father_JD]

You made the accusation, so now I am asking for you to provide the proof in the pattern that all other polytheistic religions have followed. Your questions don't matter because you have yet to provide any evidence that your accusation is true.

Marvin

"Provide the proof"?????

DO you believe God had a "god"??

YES, this is Mormon BELIEF.

Do you believe the are OTHER TRUE GODS out there somewhere in the universe?

YES, this is Mormon BELIEF.

Do you believe you're gonna become a true "god" and rule over your own little, cheaply-made planet?

YES, this is Mormon BELIEF.

YOU ARE POLYTHEISTIC BY DEFINITION.

Why do you insist on playing your little Mormon reindeer games, Marvin?? :eek:

[Russianwolfe]

A general definition will not do. Provide the evidence that shows that we are polytheistic in the pattern that all polytheistic religions the world over have followed: Provide the names of the other Gods what we believe in or worship, other than the one we both worship. Provide the evidence of these Gods and their relationships and their escapades. Without this information, your claim that we are polytheistic is nothing more than a bigot's shouting and plugging his ears.

Marvin




"Provide the proof"?????

DO you believe God had a "god"??

YES, this is Mormon BELIEF.

Do you believe the are OTHER TRUE GODS out there somewhere in the universe?

YES, this is Mormon BELIEF.

Do you believe you're gonna become a true "god" and rule over your own little, cheaply-made planet?

YES, this is Mormon BELIEF.

YOU ARE POLYTHEISTIC BY DEFINITION.

Why do you insist on playing your little Mormon reindeer games, Marvin?? :eek:

[James Banta]

A general definition will not do. Provide the evidence that shows that we are polytheistic in the pattern that all polytheistic religions the world over have followed: Provide the names of the other Gods what we believe in or worship, other than the one we both worship. Provide the evidence of these Gods and their relationships and their escapades. Without this information, your claim that we are polytheistic is nothing more than a bigot's shouting and plugging his ears.

Marvin

I don't know what language you are wanting to speak here.. English words have English meanings.. There is a word to describe every possibility. The difination of Polytheism is the belief in or worship of nor than one God.. Worship of the different gods in not necessary just a belief that they exist.. I want to tell you up front.. I deny that any God except the God of the Bible has ever or will ever exist..God and God alone is God.. There is no other. I am a monothiest. Mormnis by nature in polytheistic.. They believe in many Gods though they say they worship one one.. Do you need to see the difination again?

Polytheism:
The worship of or belief in more than one god. (Dictionary.com)

IHS jim

[Father_JD]

A general definition will not do. Provide the evidence that shows that we are polytheistic in the pattern that all polytheistic religions the world over have followed: Provide the names of the other Gods what we believe in or worship, other than the one we both worship. Provide the evidence of these Gods and their relationships and their escapades. Without this information, your claim that we are polytheistic is nothing more than a bigot's shouting and plugging his ears.

Marvin

Who are YOU to declare "a general definition will not do"?? :rolleyes:

WHY are you playing your little Mormon reindeer game of obfuscation?

Just because you don't have a "name" for God's daddy-god (actually I have named him, Bubba) or one of Roy's (my name for the Mormon deity, short for LeRoy de Kolob) celestial GODDESS WIVES, doesn't alter the FACT that BY DEFINITION YOU ARE POLYTHEISTIC.

Your little games glaringly reveal just how dishonest Mormon apolo-joke-tics are, Marvin, and frankly, you should be ashamed of yourself for this less-than honest response of yours. It's called "lack of intellectual integrity". :eek:

[stemelbow]

bump. I'd be interested.

love,
stem

[Russianwolfe]

I don't know what language you are wanting to speak here.. English words have English meanings.. There is a word to describe every possibility. The difination of Polytheism is the belief in or worship of nor than one God.. Worship of the different gods in not necessary just a belief that they exist.. I want to tell you up front.. I deny that any God except the God of the Bible has ever or will ever exist..God and God alone is God.. There is no other. I am a monothiest. Mormnis by nature in polytheistic.. They believe in many Gods though they say they worship one one.. Do you need to see the difination again?

Polytheism:
The worship of or belief in more than one god. (Dictionary.com)

IHS jim

Like I said, a general definition will not do. Whether you call them Gods or persons really doesn't matter.

What is your problem that you cannot provide the evidence that is required to support your claim? I am not asking for too much am I? We both believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, and the Holy Ghost is a God and the Father is a God. Or are you saying the Jesus is a person in God(?) and the Father is another person in God(?)? How is that any different? All it is is definitions. You call them persons but that doesn't change anything. Their relationship and their ontology we might disagree on.

So unless you want to paint yourself with that same brush, you might want to provide the evidence that shows what we believe that in Gods other than the ones that we both believe in. That would definitely make us polytheistic.

Whether you claim to worship only one God, if I asked a Jewish Rabbi what he thought, he would say that you are definitely polytheistic. That is why I am asking for the evidence that we believe in Gods other than the ones that we both believe in. So, why not provide the evidence?

Marvin

[Russianwolfe]

Who are YOU to declare "a general definition will not do"?? :rolleyes:

WHY are you playing your little Mormon reindeer game of obfuscation?

Just because you don't have a "name" for God's daddy-god (actually I have named him, Bubba) or one of Roy's (my name for the Mormon deity, short for LeRoy de Kolob) celestial GODDESS WIVES, doesn't alter the FACT that BY DEFINITION YOU ARE POLYTHEISTIC.

Your little games glaringly reveal just how dishonest Mormon apolo-joke-tics are, Marvin, and frankly, you should be ashamed of yourself for this less-than honest response of yours. It's called "lack of intellectual integrity". :eek:

Why do you think mocking and name calling are valid debating techniques?

I am trying to find out what you believe makes us that different from you that you can call us polytheistic. If you have nothing other than the same Gods that we believe in, then you have nothing. Other religions outside of Christianity consider you polytheistic. So your claims about us mean very little.

Marvin

[akaSeerone]

Why do you think mocking and name calling are valid debating techniques?

I am trying to find out what you believe makes us that different from you that you can call us polytheistic. If you have nothing other than the same Gods that we believe in, then you have nothing. Other religions outside of Christianity consider you polytheistic. So your claims about us mean very little.

Marvin
Wrong answer.....

You have nothing Marvin because you are leaning on sources outside the Bible. The Bible tells us there is only God....not Gods.

We Christians do not have Gods....we have only God....to even consider anything else is just plain foolish!

Andy

[Billyray]

I am trying to find out what you believe makes us that different from you that you can call us polytheistic.
Marvin
Marvin, I have gone over this with you on multiple occasions. LDS believe in many gods. That is the definition of polytheism. Can you explain to me why you do not seem to understand? I ***ume you are not mentally challenged.

Here is the information that has already been provided on multiple occasion.

Encyclopedia of Mormonism
Godhead
"Latter-day Saints believe in God the Father; his Son, Jesus Christ; and the Holy Ghost (A of F 1). These three Gods form the Godhead, which holds the keys of power over the universe. Each member of the Godhead is an independent personage, separate and distinct from the other two, the three being in perfect unity and harmony with each other (AF, chap. 2)."
http://eom.byu.edu/index.php/Godhead


Polytheism
Main Entry: poly·the·ism
Pronunciation: \ˈpä-lē-(ˌ)thē-ˌi-zəm\
Function: noun
Etymology: French polytheisme, from Late Greek polytheos polytheistic, from Greek, of many gods, from poly- + theos god
Date: 1613
Belief in or worship of more than one god
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/polytheism[/QUOTE]

[nrajeff]

I am not ashamed to state that I am a monolatrist just like Jesus and His apostolic-era disciples (such as Paul) were. If anyone has a problem with that, it's their problem, IMO and they can take it up with Jesus and His apostolic-era disciples.

[Billyray]

I am not ashamed to state that I am a monolatrist

Monolatrism or monolatry (Greek: μόνος (monos) = single, and λατρεία (latreia) = worship) is the recognition of the existence of many gods, but with the consistent worship of only one deity.

So you only worship the Father and never the son?


Are we Christians? Of course we are Christians. We believe in Christ. We worship Christ.
Gordon B. Hinckley, “What Are People Asking about Us?,” Ensign, Nov 1998, 70

I worship Him (Christ) as I worship His Father, in spirit and in truth.
Gordon B. Hinckley, “In These Three I Believe,” Liahona, Jul 2006, 2–8

"The Saints also worship Christ the Son as they acknowledge him as the source of truth and redemption, as the light and life of the world, as the way to the Father. . ."
http://eom.byu.edu/index.php/Jesus_Christ

2 Nephi 25:29 "And now behold, I say unto you that the right way is to believe in Christ, and deny him not; and Christ is the Holy One of Israel; wherefore ye must bow down before him, and worship him with all your might, mind, and strength, and your whole soul; and if ye do this ye shall in nowise be cast out."

3 Nephi 11:17 "Hosanna! Blessed be the name of the Most High God! And they did fall down at the feet of Jesus, and did worship him."

Matthew 2:11 "11And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshipped him. . ."

Matthew 14:33 "Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God."

Matthew 28:9 "And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him."

Matthew 28:17 "17And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted."

Luke 24:52 "52And they worshipped him, and returned to Jerusalem with great joy:"

John 9:38 "And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshipped him."

John 20:28 Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!"


We (LDS) do worship Jesus Christ as God. Don't you ?

[alanmolstad]

what makes you "you".....is from conception.

yes, God knew you before you were born, actually He also knew the trees in my yard too, and the ants on that tree....and the spots on the ants on the tree in my yard....all just as much as he knew of me before i was born.

My spirit, my soul, the "thing" that makes me the person I am, was created at my conception.

[alanmolstad]

you see....the basic way a lot of people understood how babies were born was in error in history.

They really believed that the father planted a "seed" inside the garden of the women....this is why the men would also call some women 'fertile' and others as being "barren".....as if the women was nothing more than earth.

This also shows us why men believe that they really did come from their father Abraham, as they did not understand that half of who you are is from your mother.
they ***umed they really were inside Abraham and have just been "p***ed along" via all their other grand fathers until they were born.

be that as it may....we now know a lot more about how humans are born and what we see is that at the moment of conception you become who you are.

[James Banta]

you see....the basic way a lot of people understood how babies were born was in error in history.

They really believed that the father planted a "seed" inside the garden of the women....this is why the men would also call some women 'fertile' and others as being "barren".....as if the women was nothing more than earth.

This also shows us why men believe that they really did come from their father Abraham, as they did not understand that half of who you are is from your mother.
they ***umed they really were inside Abraham and have just been "p***ed along" via all their other grand fathers until they were born.

be that as it may....we now know a lot more about how humans are born and what we see is that at the moment of conception you become who you are.


The Bible teaches the equality of the man and the woman.. While the Bible is not a book of biology it never refutes that a child is of the mother as much as it is of the father.. Children are said to be the woman's many times.. Such p***ages are represented in Proverbs 6:20. Both the father and the mother raise the children.. IHS jim

[RealFakeHair]

you see....the basic way a lot of people understood how babies were born was in error in history.

They really believed that the father planted a "seed" inside the garden of the women....this is why the men would also call some women 'fertile' and others as being "barren".....as if the women was nothing more than earth.

This also shows us why men believe that they really did come from their father Abraham, as they did not understand that half of who you are is from your mother.
they ***umed they really were inside Abraham and have just been "p***ed along" via all their other grand fathers until they were born.

be that as it may....we now know a lot more about how humans are born and what we see is that at the moment of conception you become who you are.

I can tell a birds and bee's story better than that!

[alanmolstad]

1) Do you believe our spirits were created at the time of Adam?...I know of no Bible verse that teaches this...

2) If so, where were they while waiting for our physical bodies?....There is no such teaching in the Bible to support the idea that we had a spirit before we had a body.

3) If not, when were our spirits created?....I have no knowledge of a Bible verse that address this question.

[alanmolstad]

1) Do you believe our spirits were created at the time of Adam?

2) If so, where were they while waiting for our physical bodies?

3) If not, when were our spirits created?


1) Do you believe our spirits were created at the time of Adam?........ANSWER: I cant find that in the Bible.


2) If so, where were they while waiting for our physical bodies?......ANSWER: once again I cant find that teaching in the bible at all....


3) If not, when were our spirits created?........ANSWER...I do not find any teaching in the Bible that our "spirit" was any older than our flesh.

[dberrie2000]

1) Do you believe our spirits were created at the time of Adam?........ANSWER: I cant find that in the Bible.


2) If so, where were they while waiting for our physical bodies?......ANSWER: once again I cant find that teaching in the bible at all....


3) If not, when were our spirits created?........ANSWER...I do not find any teaching in the Bible that our "spirit" was any older than our flesh.

Then the question begs to be asked--do you find anything in the Bible which states our spirits did not exist prior to our mortal bodies?

There certainly is spirits separate from physical bodies in the Bible. That would indicate spirits can, and could-- exist prior to the body.

[alanmolstad]

1) Do you believe our spirits were created at the time of Adam?

2) If so, where were they while waiting for our physical bodies?

3) If not, when were our spirits created?

The answer to all the 3 questions is..."There is nothing in the Bible to suggest our soul, or our spirit are in any way older that our flesh."

[dberrie2000]

The answer to all the 3 questions is..."There is nothing in the Bible to suggest our soul, or our spirit are in any way older that our flesh."

Jesus Christ was a spirit before He became flesh.

What is your evidence all spirits didn't exist before they became flesh?

[alanmolstad]

Jesus Christ was a spirit before He became flesh.

What is your evidence all spirits didn't exist before they became flesh?

The answer is found in my words you quoted...

"There is nothing in the Bible to suggest our soul, or our spirit are in any way older that our flesh"



While there are many ideas taught in the world of the non-Christian CULTS that can and do teach all manner of the invented ideas people have come up with on their own to sell books and fool people, the basic fact is as I have stated to you in the quote....

[dberrie2000]

The answer is found in my words you quoted...

"There is nothing in the Bible to suggest our soul, or our spirit are in any way older that our flesh"

You did not engage my point: Jesus Christ was a spirit before He was incarnated--what is your evidence all spirits did not exist prior to their mortal, physical incarnation?

The absence of information does not make your point.

[alanmolstad]

"There is nothing in the Bible to suggest our soul, or our spirit are in any way older that our flesh"

[alanmolstad]

some people understand the story of the creation of Adam to be a hint as to all of us are created.
In the story Adam's body of dust is created, and God breathed into this body and Adam became a living soul.

If this is correct way to understand the concept, it means that a man's body is created before his spirit...

[alanmolstad]

In the end, there is nothing in the Bible that supports the idea that my spirit is older than my body....

Thus because there is nothing in the Bible to support that idea I can not teach it....where the Bible is mute, I dont speak for it.



This is why I dont support other non-Christian ideas like reincarnation...or that Im made of 9 different souls....

If the Bible does not teach something I cant support it by just saying, "Well the Bible does not say you dont have 9 different souls"





There is no limit to the things the Bible does not talk about...so we cant use the lack of a teaching in the Text as allowing that teaching.
The lack of support is not support

[dberrie2000]

In the end, there is nothing in the Bible that supports the idea that my spirit is older than my body....

Thus because there is nothing in the Bible to support that idea I can not teach it....where the Bible is mute, I dont speak for it.

I believe that is fair enough.

But the Bible does testify God is the Father of spirits:

Hebrews 12:9---King James Version (KJV)
9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

And the spirits are the offspring of God:

Acts 17:29--King James Version (KJV)
29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

You can support that idea?

[alanmolstad]

I believe that is fair enough.

But the Bible does testify God is the Father of spirits:

Hebrews 12:9---King James Version (KJV)
9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

And the spirits are the offspring of God:

Acts 17:29--King James Version (KJV)
29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

You can support that idea?
The ACTS verse is making the point that we are children of God by "adoption" and not by nature...
This is because we are grafted into the family though adoption.

When the Bible talks about God being the "father" of anyone, this is a term that talks about the relationship in love that God has for us..

God is also the "Creator" of all things...but he is the "Father" to only they that he has a good relationship with.

[alanmolstad]

Now as for the idea that our "spirit" is older than
our flesh?...That idea is simply not found in the Bible at all.

There is not even a hint its true in even the slightest way.


Thus I can NOT support that idea at all as it has no grounding in the Bible.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post I believe that is fair enough.

But the Bible does testify God is the Father of spirits:

Hebrews 12:9---King James Version (KJV)
9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

And the spirits are the offspring of God:

Acts 17:29--King James Version (KJV)
29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

You can support that idea?


The ACTS verse is making the point that we are children of God by "adoption" and not by nature...

Since Paul was addressing heathens as inclusive in the "we" in Acts17:29--I don't believe you are going to make your point there.

And secondly--the "adoption" occurs years after the spirit inhabits the flesh. The adoption in no way accounts for the existence of the spirit--only a point in time far past the presence of the spirit within us.

And neither does the adoption account for the fact those who are never adopted--still have a spirit in them Fathered by God the Father.


When the Bible talks about God being the "father" of anyone, this is a term that talks about the relationship in love that God has for us..

Hebrews 12:9 has a context in mind:

Hebrews 12:9---King James Version (KJV)
9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

It refers to fathers of the flesh--and Father of spirits. Those both are paternal terms applied to the fathering of flesh--and the Fathering of spirits.


God is also the "Creator" of all things...but he is the "Father" to only they that he has a good relationship with.

So, Alan--if God the Father is not the Father of all the spirits in men--then could you explain to us what God you believe Fathers the remainder of the spirits?

Ecclesiastes 12:7---King James Version (KJV)
7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Where do we find a distinction there?

[Berean]

Since Paul was addressing heathens as inclusive in the "we" in Acts17:29--I don't believe you are going to make your point there.

And secondly--the "adoption" occurs years after the spirit inhabits the flesh. The adoption in no way accounts for the existence of the spirit--only a point in time far past the presence of the spirit within us.

And neither does the adoption account for the fact those who are never adopted--still have a spirit in them Fathered by God the Father.



Hebrews 12:9 has a context in mind:

Hebrews 12:9---King James Version (KJV)
9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

It refers to fathers of the flesh--and Father of spirits. Those both are paternal terms applied to the fathering of flesh--and the Fathering of spirits.



So, Alan--if God the Father is not the Father of all the spirits in men--then could you explain to us what God you believe Fathers the remainder of the spirits?

Ecclesiastes 12:7---King James Version (KJV)
7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Where do we find a distinction there?

Well, it won't be found in the nonsense Mormons call exegesis, which is not exegesis but eisegesis. And there is a big difference.

The distinction is that Mormons misuse the Bible by taking verses out of context to prove Mormon doctrines. I ***ume this is because the Book of Mormon does not teach any Mormon doctrines so they have to fall back on the Bible, which Joseph Smith insists is corrupt and not reliable. Using a corrupt and unreliable source as "proof text" for Mormon doctrines, is laughable.

But this fact doesn't stop Mormons from using the Bible as proof text, and a club to mock and confuse Christians by taking verses out of context and then asking Christians to explain the false dilemmas they seem to present. This is disingenuous. Unfortunately there are a lot of ignorant Christians out there for Mormons to mock and confuse with this unChristianlike ruse. But we're not all ignorant of your methods.

The Bible says we become God’s children when we are saved because we are adopted into God’s family through our relationship with Jesus Christ (Galatians 4:5-6; Ephesians 1:5). This can be clearly seen in verses like Romans 8:14-17: “…because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. For you did not receive a spirit that makes you a slave again to fear, but you received the Spirit of sonship. And by him we cry, ‘Abba, Father.’ The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children. Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.” Those who are saved are children “of God through faith in Christ Jesus” (Galatians 3:26) because God has “predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will” (Ephesians 1:5).

When speaking of "children of God, the Bible is clear that all people are God’s creation (Colossians 1:16), and that God loves the entire world (John 3:16), but only those who are born again are children of God (John 1:12; 11:52; Romans 8:16; 1 John 3:1-10). Consequently, Mormons are not children of God, but instead, Christians who rely on faith alone are adopted children of God.

In Scripture, the lost are never referred to as God’s children. Ephesians 2:3 tells us that before we were saved we were “by nature objects of wrath” (Ephesians 2:1-3).

Romans 9:8 says that “it is not the natural children who are God's children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham's offspring.” Instead of being born as God’s children, we are born in sin, which separates us from God and aligns us with Satan as God’s enemy (James 4:4; 1 John 3:8). Jesus said, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me” (John 8:42). Then a few verses later in John 8:44, Jesus told the Pharisees that they “belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire.”

The fact that those who are not saved are not children of God is also seen in 1 John 3:10: “This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother.” (paraphrased from gotquestions.org)

I hope that clears up the confusion about what it means to be a "child of God" from a Biblical perspective. Of course Mormons falsely believe that their god sired all of mankind carnally, and they can believe that if they like, but the Bible (in context) clearly does not teach that doctrine. It clearly teaches that we are adopted sons of God, but not in a literal sense as Mormon doctrine falsely teaches. Mormons can cause the Bible to appear to say that men are literal sons of God, but in context and with a proper exegesis, the Scriptures Mormons post to prove that, simply do not apply.

[alanmolstad]

I hope that clears up the confusion about what it means to be a "child of God" from a Biblical perspective. Of course Mormons falsely believe that their god sired all of mankind carnally, and they can believe that if they like, but the Bible (in context) clearly does not teach that doctrine. It clearly teaches that we are adopted sons of God, but not in a literal sense as Mormon doctrine falsely teaches. Mormons can cause the Bible to appear to say that men are literal sons of God, but in context and with a proper exegesis, the Scriptures Mormons post to prove that, simply do not apply.
well reasoned comment on the issue

[dberrie2000]

I hope that clears up the confusion about what it means to be a "child of God" from a Biblical perspective. Of course Mormons falsely believe that their god sired all of mankind carnally, and they can believe that if they like, but the Bible (in context) clearly does not teach that doctrine. It clearly teaches that we are adopted sons of God, but not in a literal sense as Mormon doctrine falsely teaches.

The spirits which inhabit man's mortal body were in the body long before the adoption occurred.

And the spirits are in the body whether the adoption occurs at all.

Berean--the adoption does nothing to account for the origins of the spirit.

This does:

Hebrews 12:9---King James Version (KJV)
9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

As Jesus Christ testified to--He shares the same Father and God as mankind--as to the spirit:

John 20:17---King James Version (KJV)
17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Berean View Post I hope that clears up the confusion about what it means to be a "child of God" from a Biblical perspective. Of course Mormons falsely believe that their god sired all of mankind carnally, and they can believe that if they like, but the Bible (in context) clearly does not teach that doctrine. It clearly teaches that we are adopted sons of God, but not in a literal sense as Mormon doctrine falsely teaches.

The spirits which inhabit man's mortal body were in the body long before the adoption occurred.

And the spirits are in the body whether the adoption occurs at all.

Berean--the adoption does nothing to account for the origins of the spirit.

This does:

Hebrews 12:9---King James Version (KJV)
9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

As Jesus Christ testified to--He shares the same Father and God as mankind--as to the spirit:

John 20:17---King James Version (KJV)
17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Anyone?

[alanmolstad]

there is not a single verse in the whole bible that even hints that our spirit is older than out body....thats a non-Bible Mormon idea that lacks support in the text...

[dberrie2000]

there is not a single verse in the whole bible that even hints that our spirit is older than out body....thats a non-Bible Mormon idea that lacks support in the text...

Whatever one believes about the age or origin of one's spirit--the adoption does nothing to explain it's origin:

The spirits which inhabit man's mortal body were in the body long before the adoption occurred.

And the spirits are in the body whether the adoption occurs at all.

This does explain the origin of the spirits:

Hebrews 12:9---King James Version (KJV)
9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

As Jesus Christ testified to--He shares the same Father and God as mankind--as to the spirit:

John 20:17---King James Version (KJV)
17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Was it not the God and Father of Jesus Christ?

1 Peter 1:3---King James Version (KJV)
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

[alanmolstad]

Whatever one believes about the age or origin of one's spirit--.....,

I am only concerned here with the age of my spirit.

There is not a single verse in the whole Bible that even slightly hints that my spirit is even one split-second older than my body.




This is why whenever anyone tried to suggest to me that our souls or spirit or whatever are older I just smile....for they have had to base their views on dreams/myths/and movie scrips and not on the holy text of the Bible...


My views are built on a firm foundation of truth and Bible fact.

The view that men's spirits were around before our flesh is built on lies.





That is why Im right, and the others are wrong.

[dberrie2000]

I am only concerned here with the age of my spirit.

That's all well and good--regardless--that has no play on the fact the scriptures testify God the Father is the Father of spirits--and they His offspring:

Hebrews 12:9---King James Version (KJV)
9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

Acts 17:29---King James Version (KJV)
29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

So--is that some spirits--or all spirits?

[alanmolstad]

So--is that some spirits--or all spirits?


Depends on the context silly.

The Lord is the creator of all things...spirits too.

But the Lord is only the Father to they whom he has a relationship with.

This is why God was not the "Father" to the people that were fighting against Jesus , and Jesus told this to their faces.




In the modern world I would say that while God is my Father, he is not the "father" to the people who are in the world of the CULTS....(like the Mormons and JWs)
He is not their father, he does not have a relationship with them, they are at odds with God and his Son.



Who is their "Father"?
Satan.......and thats not just my view that what the Bible says!

[alanmolstad]

I like how when I bring up the fact that while God is the creator of all things, he is only the father of they who have a relationship with him , it tends to calm down the Mormons...

They know that Bible clearly says that Satan is the father of some people, they just dont like the Bible saying that out loud I guess.... :)

[dberrie2000]

some people understand the story of the creation of Adam to be a hint as to all of us are created.
In the story Adam's body of dust is created, and God breathed into this body and Adam became a living soul.

If this is correct way to understand the concept, it means that a man's body is created before his spirit...

I would modify that to say the body is created before the spirit inhabits the mortal body. That in no way determines whether the spirit was Fathered after the creation of the body--or before.

In the case of Jesus Christ--the Spirit was present long before the body was present. The spirit will be present prior to the resurrected body. That pattern may not prove anything--but it does provide some insights into the patterns set, as to the spirit and the body.

Jeremiah 1:4-5---King James Version (KJV)
4 Then the word of the Lord came unto me, saying,
5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

[dberrie2000]

I like how when I bring up the fact that while God is the creator of all things, he is only the father of they who have a relationship with him ,

Just an addendum to that thought--to have a relationship with God--that would mean you were years down the road from birth.

The spirit was already in the body years prior to that point, IE--your point does nothing to account for the origins of the spirit.

This does:

Hebrews 12:9---King James Version (KJV)
9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

Acts 17:29---King James Version (KJV)
29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

[alanmolstad]

I would modify that to say the body is created before the spirit inhabits the mortal body..while at my death my spirit will be away from my body....there is not a line in the Bible to support the view that my spirit is even one second younger or older than my body....

[dberrie2000]

while at my death my spirit will be away from my body....there is not a line in the Bible to support the view that my spirit is even one second younger or older than my body....

Jeremiah 1:5---King James Version (KJV)
5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

[alanmolstad]

Jeremiah 1:5---King James Version (KJV)
5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

Yes, known from the beginning were all the works that God would one day do.
Nothing was unknown to God from the very beginning.....nothing was left to have God learn later.


So God knew me before the beginning of the universe....my future was never unbeknown, never in doubt....My salvation was never left in doubt.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post

Jeremiah 1:5---King James Version (KJV)
5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.


Yes, known from the beginning were all the works that God would one day do.

It goes a little beyond knowledge-- to sanctifying and ordaining him beforehand.

[alanmolstad]

It goes a little beyond knowledge-- to sanctifying and ordaining him beforehand.

For those God foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son,....And those He predestined He also called, those He called He also justified, those He justified He also glorified.…


Thus the Christian cant be condemned!.......cant ever be seen as guilty!...for thing nor no person can separate us from the love of God that is in us though Christ Jesus.