Let us spotlight and particular teaching

[stemelbow]

I got some questions

Before creating (ex nihilo) anything God was all there was, correct?

Before God created (ex nihilo) He knew, had to know, that evil things would be practiced, correct?

God being all powerful and able to create anything in any form and with any behavior he wanted, chose to create creatures (like satan) that would do evil things. He certainly didn't have to create Satan, right?

Also before creating (ex nihilo) God knew all the evil acts that would be done, right?

If so, before any being was created, before any evil action could be done, evil ideas originated in the "mind" of God, right?

***uming all the above is in line with your beliefs lets move on...

God created beings and knew each and every action each being would do throughout eternity, right?

He knew, for instance, that little Russ would tell his mom a lie when he was little, right?

But God, being all-powerful, didn't have to create any beings who would do anything evil right?

Without creating there would be no evil practiced there would only be God, right?

A creature would not do evil things if God first did not create that being out of nothing knowing full well all actions that being would do, right?

God knew which beings would be saved eternally and which beings would be ****ed for eternity before creating any of them, right?

God did not have to create any beings who would be ****ed for eternity, right?

There would be absolutely no suffering, of the worst kind, if God did not create, right?

Let us go to this point and see what answers we get.

love,
stem

[nrajeff]

Stem, if you get little in the way of responses, would it be all right if I posted my Parable of the Hasbro Evil Robot Designer/Engineer/***embler ?

[stemelbow]

Let's give it a little longer. I'm sure I won't get any answers to my questions mostly because they are such awful answer dodgers, as they accuse us, but we'll see.

love,
stem

[BrianH]

I got some questions.

According to non-LDS Christianity God is the source of evil.

If you are unfamiliar with your beliefs and how your beliefs do this let me explain it to you, through questions:

First of all, I am quite familiar with my beliefs, so I certainly do not need you to explain them to me.

Secondly, it is obvious that YOU do NOT understand my beliefs, given your misrepresentation of them right here.

Third, since the rest of your questions are based on the unsubstantiated, falacious and false premise (that God is the source of evil), they deserve no more answer than if you had asked me to give you the date on which I stopped selling crack to first graders.

While it is obvious that you are unfamilair with the range of thought Christian scholars and philosophers have represented on this matter, if you would like me to explain my own understanding of the origin of evil, just ask. Meanwhile, since this is the MORMON forum, I suggest that rather than pretending to dictate to others what they believe, you have a responsibility to represent the MORMON view on this topic. But don't pretend to dictate to me what I believe either by fallacious questions or any other means.

-BH

.

[stemelbow]

So you refuse to answer questions? No need to fear. If I'm wrong, then plainly tell me, by answering the questions, in which way I'm wrong. It'd be a delight to hear you actually attempt a defense of your own belief system. I dont believe I've every seen you try to defend your beliefs before.

Or you can run in fear...again.

love,
stem

[BrianH]

So you refuse to answer questions? No need to fear. If I'm wrong, then plainly tell me, by answering the questions, in which way I'm wrong. It'd be a delight to hear you actually attempt a defense of your own belief system. I dont believe I've every seen you try to defend your beliefs before

I refuse to answer questions based on fallacious premises. You may not "believe" you have ever seen me defend my beliefs, but as usual, what you believe does not reflect reality.

I am happy to explain my understanding on the issue of the origin and nature of evil if you like. I am a Molinist. Now run off to google and discover what that means, or if you prefer I will explain it to you.

-BH

.

[stemelbow]

I refuse to answer questions based on fallacious premises.

I see that you refuse to answer questions. It appears you have something to hide...again.


You may not "believe" you have ever seen me defend my beliefs, but as usual, what you believe does not reflect reality.

I'm sure you've attempted at some point in time a defense of your religion but I don't think you do it when I'm around. Perhaps your attempts at defending your faith have been totally futile and so you refuse to do it anymore?


I am happy to explain my understanding on the issue of the origin and nature of evil if you like. I am a Molinist. Now run off to google and discover what that means, or if you prefer I will explain it to you.

I would prefer you simply answer some questions instead of play your puffing up the chest games. I think it'll be much more enlightening to me than your obscure and inarticulate explanation of your beliefs.

Since you're plain afraid to answer them, I'll go ahead and realize you have conceded the point.

love,
stem

[BrianH]

I see that you refuse to answer questions. It appears you have something to hide...again.
Had you bothered to actually read the post to which you are responding, you would not have made this mistake. At this point it is obvious that you are at a loss and now have to try to cover your retreat from your empty rhetoric with MORE empty rhetoric.


I'm sure you've attempted at some point in time a defense of your religion but I don't think you do it when I'm around. Perhaps your attempts at defending your faith have been totally futile and so you refuse to do it anymore?

And you are wrong again. I have MANY times defended my beliefs directly to YOU and you know it. Meanwhile, MY beliefs are not MORMON beliefs and are thus not the focus of THIS board.


I would prefer you simply answer some questions instead of play your puffing up the chest games. I think it'll be much more enlightening to me than your obscure and inarticulate explanation of your beliefs.
Of course you would "prefer" that I answer your questions. That is becaue you lack the capacity to be honest enough to let me explain my own views apart from your obviously fallacious premises. But if you don't think my answers are sufficinely clear and articulate, why are you asking for me to provide my "obscure and inarticulate explanations" to begin with? It seems you are once again caught in a self-contradiction.


Since you're plain afraid to answer them, I'll go ahead and realize you have conceded the point.
"Afraid"??? No, smart. I am smart enough to recognize faulty premises and the desperate attempts of Mormons to pretend to dictate to me what my beliefs are. At this point it is obvious that you are not at all interested in finding out what I think, you just want me to jump through the hoops of your fallacious questions while mindlessly following your unsubstantiated premises. I am simply not as stoooopid as you want to pretend, Stem. in fact I am MUCH smarter than you.

-BH

.

[stemelbow]

Alright, you got your gaming in. Now if you're up to it go ahead and answer the questions. Or hide if you prefer behind those who you think have done the thinking for you by claiming you're a molinist, as if that settles it. I don't care...either way.

meanwhile your fear of answering the questions only confirms to me that you have no logical way to avoid the idea that your beliefs make God into the very source of evil...sadly.

love,
stem

[BrianH]

Alright, you got your gaming in. Now if you're up to it go ahead and answer the questions. Or hide if you prefer behind those who you think have done the thinking for you by claiming you're a molinist, as if that settles it. I don't care...either way.

Gaming? I see you are unwilling to abandon your usual empty rhetoric. What you dismiss as "gaming" is me explicitly identifying the fact that your questions are all based on the fallacy of a false premise. I do not believe that God is the source of evil as you claimed. I therefore have no obligation to answer questions based on the ***umption that I DO believe that God is the soruce of evil.

Secondly, it is obvious that you do not even know what Molinism is, nor do you have any grounds to claim that I have not thought about these matters. That you don't care is only further proof of just how shallow and uneducated you really are on this matter.


meanwhile your fear of answering the questions only confirms to me that you have no logical way to avoid the idea that your beliefs make God into the very source of evil...sadly.

As you try to once again tell me what my beleifs are, I can only stand in awe at the arrogance and ignoranc e required of Mormons. What you dismiss as my supposed "fear" is the simple fact that your lame and childish little parlor tricks are no more effective on me than your attempt to dictate to me what my beliefs are. That you would even ATTEMPT such stooooopid little tricks as these only shows that you actually thought they would work.

Apparently you think that everyone else is just as easy to fool as you are.

-BH

.

[nrajeff]

So, Brian the Molinist: What "would have happened" if God had NOT been the cause of all the evil in the universe? I mean, I can think up one result: A universe where everything that He'd created and called "very good" would have REMAINED very good forever. But somehow that result must not have been a "very good" idea. So: What else you got in the way of answers from your cult of Molinism?

[BrianH]

So, Brian the Molinist: What "would have happened" if God had NOT been the cause of all the evil in the universe.

Your question errs in ***uming the fallacious and unsupported premise that God WAS the cause of all the evil in the universe.


I mean, I can think up one result: A universe where everything that He'd created and called "very good" would have REMAINED very good forever.

So what? Are you suggesting that God made a mistake? If so ...well, I know you Momrons are incredibly arrogant (even to the point of thinking that YOU are "Gods"), but I suggest you have a responsibility to back up such a claim.


So: What else you got in the way of answers from your cult of Molinism?

Here we have yet another demonstration of the rhetorical desperation of Mormons. Molinism is not a "cult" in either the sociolgoical or religious contexts. There is no organized body, no creed, no leader, no specific, exclusive dogma nor any of the other characteristics of a "cult" thus the term does not appy - unless you mean to use it in the generic and essentially meaningless sense of a group that believes similar things.

-BH

.

[stemelbow]

First of all I like Jeff's question, hopefully by my response you're not going to just respond to me, as you do, without addressing the OP, appropriately, and run from answering him. Such is the risk, I suppose.


Gaming? I see you are unwilling to abandon your usual empty rhetoric. What you dismiss as "gaming" is me explicitly identifying the fact that your questions are all based on the fallacy of a false premise. I do not believe that God is the source of evil as you claimed. I therefore have no obligation to answer questions based on the ***umption that I DO believe that God is the soruce of evil.

You have no obligation to respond at all. My premise did not suggest you believed God is the source of evil. One can certainly accept all the beliefs of the mainstream Christian group and still, in a blatant display of illogic and self-denial, claim he/she believes God is not the source of evil. the point is, no matter that many philosophical efforts to muddy the fact that your religion forces God, if taken to its logical conclusion, to be the very source of evil, is that even in spite of your explanations, or rather the explanations of those you wish to parrot (Molina himself), your religion still forces upon God that he is the source of evil. Deny it all you want. Run from questions posed to you all you want. Obfuscate and whimper. it doesn't matter. You're only showing that your religious belief is empty and perhaps a little sinister.


Secondly, it is obvious that you do not even know what Molinism is, nor do you have any grounds to claim that I have not thought about these matters. That you don't care is only further proof of just how shallow and uneducated you really are on this matter.

How about you answer the questions instead of run and hide behind your hostility? I know you have had a very difficult time understanding what it means to actually answer questions, but I'm confident after I went through the process of explaining it to you, that you can answer yes or no questions. You can do it. I have confidence in you.


As you try to once again tell me what my beleifs are, I can only stand in awe at the arrogance and ignoranc e required of Mormons. What you dismiss as my supposed "fear" is the simple fact that your lame and childish little parlor tricks are no more effective on me than your attempt to dictate to me what my beliefs are. That you would even ATTEMPT such stooooopid little tricks as these only shows that you actually thought they would work.

That's all beside the point and a rather silly distraction on your part. The questions remain unanswered. Your response, which is nothing more than a "how dare you question my beliefs", only helps my point, BH. If you consider me asking questions a trick, even to the point of you running from the questions with your tail between your legs, then that is your irrational fear, BH, and not my fault.


Apparently you think that everyone else is just as easy to fool as you are.

ahhhh so you concede that your efforts here are nothing more than an effort to fool me, or other LDS folks for that matter. Of course we all knew that, it's just nice to see you admit it, even if you admitted it not realizing you did so. If you dedicated yourself to civil, constructive dialogue we may actually get somewhere around here in our conversations. Behind all your huff and puff grandstanding I know deep down your just a little afraid that your beliefs will be exposed as the hoax that they are. Thus, your front of having to try to trick the LDS folks. Only fear God, BH. That's my advice to you. You can actually shed the deep religious hold them evangelicals have on you, open up, and embrace a much more interesting, solid, and productive faith. Until then, I'll happily leave you to your incessant whining and bitter anecdotes.

love,
stem

[stemelbow]

So what? Are you suggesting that God made a mistake? If so ...well, I know you Momrons are incredibly arrogant (even to the point of thinking that YOU are "Gods"), but I suggest you have a responsibility to back up such a claim.

I can't help myself but to comment on this. No one is suggesting God made any mistakes...the obvious point is your religion makes God out to be the bad guy, if the precepts of your religion are taken to their logical conclusion (which you conceded you can't/don't do). The point being your religion is at fault here, not Jeff's question; albeit the hostility you expressed because he asked a question says something.

love,
stem

[Bat-Man]

Here are some QUESTIONS, and ONLY some QUESTIONS:

1) Do you believe God created everything (other than God) out of nothing (ex nihilo)?

2) If so, before creating (ex nihilo) everything other than God, was God the one and only thing in all of existence ?

3) If so, at that point, doesn't that mean evil existed with God, since God was the only thing in existence at that moment before God created other things ?

Let us go to this point and see what answers we get.

I'd like to see how those who profess to be Christians answer those questions.

[BrianH]

I can't help myself but to comment on this. No one is suggesting God made any mistakes...the obvious point is your religion makes God out to be the bad guy, if the precepts of your religion are taken to their logical conclusion (which you conceded you can't/don't do). The point being your religion is at fault here, not Jeff's question; albeit the hostility you expressed because he asked a question says something.

Jeff suggested that God made the mistake of creating evil and even posed what he regarded as a better universe.

Seconly, since I do NOT credit God with the creation of evil as you have now repeatedly and deliberately misrepresented, it is impossible that my religion makes God out to be the bad guy. Don't you EVER get tired of getting caught deliberately misrepresenting the views of other people in public. Have you NO honor whatsoever?

-BH

.

[BrianH]

First of all I like Jeff's question, hopefully by my response you're not going to just respond to me, as you do, without addressing the OP, appropriately, and run from answering him. Such is the risk, I suppose.

You can like his question until your eyes bleed, Stem - that does not make it any less fallacious.


You have no obligation to respond at all. My premise did not suggest you believed God is the source of evil.

That is observably false. YOUR very words:

quote:>> "According to non-LDS Christianity God is the source of evil." <<: unquote
When you can decide just WHAT you are trying to suggest, you are welcome to try to engage in a rational discussion about it. But if even YOU don't know what you are trying to say, don't expect me to be able to beat it out of you.


One can certainly accept all the beliefs of the mainstream Christian group and still, in a blatant display of illogic and self-denial, claim he/she believes God is not the source of evil.

See ...you just did it again.


the point is, no matter that many philosophical efforts to muddy the fact that your religion forces God, if taken to its logical conclusion, to be the very source of evil, is that even in spite of your explanations, or rather the explanations of those you wish to parrot (Molina himself), your religion still forces upon God that he is the source of evil. Deny it all you want. Run from questions posed to you all you want. Obfuscate and whimper. it doesn't matter. You're only showing that your religious belief is empty and perhaps a little sinister.

Serious backpedaling here. YOU are the one who is saying that biblical Christianity makes God the source of evil, Stem. THEN you deny it. THEN you reaffirm the very thing you denied! You are obviously as confused as you are uneducated on the matter.


How about you answer the questions instead of run and hide behind your hostility? I know you have had a very difficult time understanding what it means to actually answer questions, but I'm confident after I went through the process of explaining it to you, that you can answer yes or no questions. You can do it. I have confidence in you.
I already gave you a clear and direct explanation as to why I will not answer your questions. You are ***UMING (AND denying ...LOL!!) that I believe God is the source of all evil and all of your questions proceed on that incorrect ***umption. My hostility is directed at YOU for repeatedly and deliberately misrepresenting my views and even being so arrogant as to insist that you somehow know more about my beliefs than I do, especially since it is so obvious that you are not well-read on this matter at all. In fact you are obviously totally ignroan t and that is why you are forced to ask such hopelessly uninformed questions.


That's all beside the point and a rather silly distraction on your part. The questions remain unanswered. Your response, which is nothing more than a "how dare you question my beliefs", only helps my point, BH. If you consider me asking questions a trick, even to the point of you running from the questions with your tail between your legs, then that is your irrational fear, BH, and not my fault.
No it is NOT beside the point at all. YOU have pretended to tell me what I think. My refuting your obviously stooopid antics are NOT beside the point; my refuting your claims DIRECTLY attacks your point. Furthermore, as you continue to misrepresent my words, I have not said or implied that you are not allowed to question my beliefs. I am telling you what SHOULD have been obvious, were you not so arrogant and Mormon-like - I will not allow you to DICTATE to me what my beliefs are. Finally, asking questions is not a trick. Asking questions based on false premises is the trick you are trying to play here and its just not working.

Here, lets play your own trick on you: Tell me, Stem, when did you stop abusing the neighborhood children? And if asking this questions causes you to "run with your tail between your legs" then so be it.


ahhhh so you concede that your efforts here are nothing more than an effort to fool me, or other LDS folks for that matter. ...<snip> (followed by one of the most desperately irrational diatribes I have ever read ...even for a Mormon)
How you can even pretend to have arrived at this desperate leap of irrational inference is beyond any speculation. What I SAID was: YOU obviously think that everyone else is as gullible as YOU are. YOU are the one asking questions based on an observably FALSE premise.

What ...Are you STILL abusing children, Stemlebow?


-BH

.

[John T]

The OP begins like this

I got some questions. According to non-LDS Christianity God is the source of evil... That is not a question, but a statement.

The term "non-LDS Christianity" is an oxymoron, and an impossibility. It is impossible to conclude that the members of the LDS church are close to being Christians, no matter how loudly thay scream at us; it does not change the facts.

Saying "God is the author of evil: is outright lie, an attack and a blasphemy that has been many times debated, and answered, but the critics of Christianity fail to accept the answer.

The answer is that God is sovereign over all things, and his permitting something does not make him the author of it. God created humanity with a free will, and God will not violate that. It is not in his nature to do that. That way, those who choose to accept God's plan of salvation do do by their own free will, and those who reject God's plan of salvation, also do it via free will. That is the short story.

Your position seems to be rejecting the God of the Bible because you are accusing the only, wise God, a God of love, mercy and comp***ion to be the author of evil. That is prima facie that you know neither God, nor his son, Jesus Christ sufficiently for salvation. Therefore you are stating to all who read, that you, stemelbow deliberately and evilly choose to reject the God who created the way of salvation.

Therefore, due to your evil choice, you are not going to enter into the Kingdom of God, and I AM NOT GLEEFUL TO SAY IT. It saddens me greatly, but I gotta tell you the truth that your evil choices result in eternal, painful separation from God.

I truly hope that that is not the case. I tell you the truth in this, and in other matters, but only you can choose for yourself.

[stemelbow]

You can like his question until your eyes bleed, Stem - that does not make it any less fallacious.

Yeah, I knew you would refuse to answer it too.


That is observably false. YOUR very words:

quote:>> "According to non-LDS Christianity God is the source of evil." <<: unquote

According to Brian's belief God is not the source of evil in spite of his own religion forcing God, if taken to its logical conclusion, to be the source of evil.


Serious backpedaling here. YOU are the one who is saying that biblical Christianity makes God the source of evil, Stem.

Not true, I did not say "biblical Christianity"make God the source of evil...I said the mainstream Christianity would if taken to its logical conclusion make God the source of evil.


I already gave you a clear and direct explanation as to why I will not answer your questions.

I get it. You deny that God is the source of evil, in spite of the very conclusion of mainstream Christianity is that God is the source of evil.


My hostility is directed at YOU for repeatedly and deliberately misrepresenting my views and even being so arrogant as to insist that you somehow know more about my beliefs than I do, especially since it is so obvious that you are not well-read on this matter at all. In fact you are obviously totally ignroan t and that is why you are forced to ask such hopelessly uninformed questions.

If the questions are so hopelessly uninformed, then you ought to straighten them out by answering them directly.


No it is NOT beside the point at all. YOU have pretended to tell me what I think. My refuting your obviously stooopid antics are NOT beside the point; my refuting your claims DIRECTLY attacks your point.

Sadly you can't and didn't refute anything. You have merely ***erted that my explanation is wrong and have run away from the questions initially asked.


Furthermore, as you continue to misrepresent my words, I have not said or implied that you are not allowed to question my beliefs.

Actually I would suggest your refusal to answer questions in regards to your beliefs suggests you wish your beliefs weren't ever questioned.


I am telling you what SHOULD have been obvious, were you not so arrogant and Mormon-like - I will not allow you to DICTATE to me what my beliefs are. Finally, asking questions is not a trick. Asking questions based on false premises is the trick you are trying to play here and its just not working.

Answer the questions and prove the premise is wrong, BrianH. Yes or No questions are pretty easy to answer. Remember that whole not being able to tell whether someone answered a question or not I explained to you...you can use that to help you answer the questions.


Here, lets play your own trick on you: Tell me, Stem, when did you stop abusing the neighborhood children?

I never abused anyone therefore I never stopped that which I never started. See how easy it is to answer questions, BH?


And if asking this questions causes you to "run with your tail between your legs" then so be it.


How you can even pretend to have arrived at this desperate leap of irrational inference is beyond any speculation. What I SAID was: YOU obviously think that everyone else is as gullible as YOU are. YOU are the one asking questions based on an observably FALSE premise.

You didn't say anything about being gullible. You said:


Apparently you think that everyone else is just as easy to fool as you are.

Clearly implying that you have fooled me. I know you are trying to trick me, I see it often, but I would like to see where how you have fooled me.


What ...Are you STILL abusing children, Stemlebow?

Never have, BH. See I can answer questions without fear, unlike you.

love,
stem

[stemelbow]

Jeff suggested that God made the mistake of creating evil and even posed what he regarded as a better universe.

In light of the topic of this thread, he's clearly asking you to consider how your beliefs make God look bad...essentially. He's clearly not suggesting God made any mistakes, only that your beliefs are erroneous.


Seconly, since I do NOT credit God with the creation of evil as you have now repeatedly and deliberately misrepresented

I never said you credited God with the creation of evil. You have failed to comprehend what I've said again.


, it is impossible that my religion makes God out to be the bad guy. Don't you EVER get tired of getting caught deliberately misrepresenting the views of other people in public. Have you NO honor whatsoever?


Actually your beliefs and inability to think your religious convictions through have little to do with the logical outcome of the mainstream Christian religion.

love,
stem

[stemelbow]

The OP begins like this
That is not a question, but a statement.

Fair enough. But the questions that followed are questions. My mistake. I edited the OP just for you.


The term "non-LDS Christianity" is an oxymoron, and an impossibility. It is impossible to conclude that the members of the LDS church are close to being Christians, no matter how loudly thay scream at us; it does not change the facts.

Let's get back on topic. How about you answer the questions in the OP instead of quibble about this non-related comment?


Saying "God is the author of evil: is outright lie, an attack and a blasphemy that has been many times debated, and answered, but the critics of Christianity fail to accept the answer.

The answer is that God is sovereign over all things, and his permitting something does not make him the author of it. God created humanity with a free will, and God will not violate that. It is not in his nature to do that. That way, those who choose to accept God's plan of salvation do do by their own free will, and those who reject God's plan of salvation, also do it via free will. That is the short story.

Oh I've heard that plenty of times. It does not take into account many things, some of which you will realize will be brought to light if you decide to answer the questions I posed.


Your position seems to be rejecting the God of the Bible because you are accusing the only, wise God, a God of love, mercy and comp***ion to be the author of evil.

Not at all. BrianH, would say you need to learn to read...I'm not saying what you just suggested at all.


That is prima facie that you know neither God, nor his son, Jesus Christ sufficiently for salvation. Therefore you are stating to all who read, that you, stemelbow deliberately and evilly choose to reject the God who created the way of salvation.

Not in the least, I accept God and His Son Jesus Christ. But this is all beside the point and is clearly a deflection.


Therefore, due to your evil choice, you are not going to enter into the Kingdom of God, and I AM NOT GLEEFUL TO SAY IT. It saddens me greatly, but I gotta tell you the truth that your evil choices result in eternal, painful separation from God.

Interesting...so would you say that before I was ever created God knew that I would end up suffering eternal painful separation? Is it the worst kind of suffering imaginable?


I truly hope that that is not the case. I tell you the truth in this, and in other matters, but only you can choose for yourself.

It'd be nice if you chose to answer the questions and didn't run straight to other matters in hopes not to stay on topic.

love,
stem

[nrajeff]

Your question errs in ***uming the fallacious and unsupported premise that God WAS the cause of all the evil in the universe.
---I was just following your belief that God is the Uncaused Cause, and combining it with one pillar of your Molinism: Your belief that besides God knowing everything that IS, He also knows everything that MIGHT HAVE BEEN if He'd done things DIFFERENTLY. Kind of like how a good chess player can look ahead several moves and think "If I go THERE, then my opponent would go THERE...."

So, if your God is really absolutely omniscient and omnipotent and sovereign, then He is absolutely responsible for EVERYTHING, both good and bad, that happens in His universe. He can't put the blame on anyone else, because, by your definition of Him, no one else is absolutely omniscient and omnipotent and sovereign. Your God gets all the credit for all the good, and He also gets all the blame for all the bad.

Now, you are a Molin (like you call me a Mormon...get it?). So, following that pillar of your Molinism, I looked at what IS--the world He'd created and all its inhabitants fallen, evil, none of them that do good, none of them righteous, with Satan wreaking misery, death, pain, destruction and sorrow on everyone--and plugged that into the Molinism Computer. Your Molinisitic God must have considered all the possible combinations and permutations of all of His OTHER options or alternatives--decisions He COULD HAVE made but didn't--and ONE of those outcomes was a universe that REMAINED "very good," with NO evil, no Satan in it. He must have decided that the reality that we ARE in was somehow preferable to that one, right? Otherwise, He'd have done things differently with the GOOD universe as a result instead of this EVIL universe.

So I was just wondering if you had any additional scenarios to add, besides the one that I thought of. Surely you understand Molinism better than I do--after all, it's YOUR religion, not mine--and so you must have more insights than the one I had.

[BrianH]

I was just following your belief that God is the Uncaused Cause, and combining it with one pillar of your Molinism: Your belief that besides God knowing everything that IS, He also knows everything that MIGHT HAVE BEEN if He'd done things DIFFERENTLY. Kind of like how a good chess player can look ahead several moves and think "If I go THERE, then my opponent would go THERE...."


And then you were what ...trying to tell me that you have a better idea about what God SHOULD have created if he was as good as YOU?


So, if your God is really absolutely omniscient and omnipotent and sovereign, then He is absolutely responsible for EVERYTHING, both good and bad, that happens in His universe.

Really? So then, in your so-called "mind", when you tell lies about God being an exalted creature living on a planet in outer space or about imaginary Egyptian-writing Jewish American Indians using steel swords, operating a monetary economy and riding around in chariots, somehow GOD is responsible for those lies?


Now, you are a Molin (like you call me a Mormon...get it?). So, following that pillar of your Molinism, I looked at what IS--the world He'd created and all its inhabitants fallen, evil, none of them that do good, none of them righteous, with Satan wreaking misery, death, pain, destruction and sorrow on everyone--and plugged that into the Molinism Computer. Your Molinisitic God must have considered all the possible combinations and permutations of all of His OTHER options or alternatives--decisions He COULD HAVE made but didn't--and ONE of those outcomes was a universe that REMAINED "very good," with NO evil, no Satan in it. He must have decided that the reality that we ARE in was somehow preferable to that one, right? Otherwise, He'd have done things differently with the GOOD universe as a result instead of this EVIL universe.


God created the best possible reality according to his own purpose. Do you pretend to actually be the God your religion tells you that you are such that you are now in a position to correct Him?


So I was just wondering if you had any additional scenarios to add, besides the one that I thought of. Surely you understand Molinism better than I do--after all, it's YOUR religion, not mine--and so you must have more insights than the one I had.

First of all, YOUR religion holds evil as a principle above or before God. I do not share that view. Evil did not exist before the man you call "God" turned into one of the Mormon Gods by eschewing the evil that preceded him and then got his own planet as his reward. Secondly, to answer your question (something you might try actually doing some time), there may indeed be a functionally infinite number of possible universes that God did NOT create. I suggest that since HE is God (and you are not) that he has the necessary and sufficient wisdom to have created the one he wanted for his own purpose. In that universe, God did not create evil as you imagine (or pretend that I have affirmed). God created the possibility of evil. If you cannot understand the difference, I suggest you owe me an explanation of what you even think "evil" actually is.

-BH

.

[BrianH]

Yeah, I knew you would refuse to answer it too.

I have no obligation to answer questions based on fallacious premises. Like you, Jeff has tried to pretend that I believe God is the "cause of all the evil in the universe". That is false. I do not owe any answers for beliefs I do not hold.


According to Brian's belief God is not the source of evil in spite of his own religion forcing God, if taken to its logical conclusion, to be the source of evil.

Stem is so ignoran t of biblical Christianity that even though he cannot show any evidence that it claims God is the source of all evil, he thinks that if he just repeats his empty claims enough, somehow they will become true.


Not true, I did not say "biblical Christianity"make God the source of evil...I said the mainstream Christianity would if taken to its logical conclusion make God the source of evil.

Since mainstream Christianity IS biblical Christianity, your evasion here is meaningless. And if you had even the most p***ing familiarity with biblical Christianity (or "mainstream Christiainty" if you prefer that name), you would have known that what you are attributing to it is actually what we call "blasphemy". I challenge you to show me ONE authoritative source from ANY mainstream Christian source that affirms what you are trying to jack-hammer down our throats and then make us answer for. When you fail, as even YOU know you will, it SHOULD begin to become obvious to you that all you are doing here is inventing yet another absurd straw man fallacy and then pretending to have knocked it down. All you are proving is that you have no idea what you are talking about when you talk about mainstream Christianity, Stem.


I get it. You deny that God is the source of evil, in spite of the very conclusion of mainstream Christianity is that God is the source of evil.

That is YOUR conclusion, NOT the conclusion of mainstream Christianity. Your failure to have cited any source from mainstream Christianity that claims what you are trying to force down our throats is proof that you don't know what you are talking about and so, as usual for Mormons, all you can do is invent fantasies and insist that they are true.


If the questions are so hopelessly uninformed, then you ought to straighten them out by answering them directly.

No it is because your questions are so ill-informed that the only way to answer them is to point out the fallacious premises you have merely ***umed. For example, when I ask you again: "When did you stop abusing the children in your neighborhood?" isn't the proper answer to point out that the premise to the question is wrong?


Sadly you can't and didn't refute anything. You have merely ***erted that my explanation is wrong and have run away from the questions initially asked.

Wrong. I have refuted the false premise upon which your entire thread is based. YOU say that biblical Christianity affirms that God is the source of all evil. You are not only WRONG, you have yet to do anything more than just REPEAT that claim when challenged to support it.


Actually I would suggest your refusal to answer questions in regards to your beliefs suggests you wish your beliefs weren't ever questioned.

You have not asked me questions about MY beliefs. You have only asked me questions about YOUR repeated and deliberate misrepresentations of my beliefs.


Answer the questions and prove the premise is wrong, BrianH.

I don't have to answer them to prove their premise wrong. YOU say that Christianity holds that God is the source of evil. You are wrong. That is not what the Bible says, nor is it what any mainstream denomination affirms. Again, your failure to support your premise is proof that you cannot.


I never abused anyone therefore I never stopped that which I never started. See how easy it is to answer questions, BH?

Thank you for proving my point. I have done the same thing with equal ease when I have repeatedly told you that neither I nor any adherent to mainstream, historically orthodox biblical Christianity believes that God is the source of evil. That is the deliberate prevarication that underlies your questions, just as my mock-example of asking you when you stopped molesting children was false.


You didn't say anything about being gullible. You said:

Quote:
Apparently you think that everyone else is just as easy to fool as you are.

You are wrong again. Being "easily fooled" is what "gullible" means, Stem. Did you not know that? I am glad to have taught you a new word.


Never have, BH. See I can answer questions without fear, unlike you.

And in answering you have once again DEMONSTRATED that I have answered YOU when I told you that we do not affirm that God is the source of evil. Or do you somehow fantasize that YOUR unsupported premises deserve a special p***?

-BH

.

[nrajeff]

And then you were what ...trying to tell me that you have a better idea about what God SHOULD have created if he was as good as YOU?
--Still slow on the uptake, it seems. No, I wasn't trying to tell you that, as most high-school grads should be able to realize. I was taking your beliefs to their logical conclusion, and exposing your beliefs as being fallacious in the process.




Really? So then, in your so-called "mind"
---Not just so-called: All the evidence supports the fact that it is, in reality, a mind. Perhaps your cult has brainwashed you into believing that some people only have "so-called" minds. This sounds surrealistic. Does your cult teach you that reality is only so-called? That is one sign of cult-think.


when you tell lies about God being an exalted creature
--So your cult has taught you that the idea that God is exalted, is a lie? That is cause for concern. Get out of that cult ASAP, if the Molinists have you believing such things.


living on a planet
---Some of your Carm buddies right here in WM (like Jim Banta) believe that they will be dwelling with God right here on this planet. You believe God is living, right? Do you believe in those NT scriptures that say that the "elect" will end up "reigning" with God on this planet? If yes, then you yourself believe in a God that lives on planets, Brian. Or has your Molinism cult taught you to reject the Bible?



in outer space or about imaginary Egyptian-writing Jewish American Indians using steel swords, operating a monetary economy
---Do you need to see evidence that some precolumbian cultures had a monetary system? Get up to speed, Brian, that evidence has been out for decades. Your old Tanner/Decker/Martin library is obsolete.


God created the best possible reality according to his own purpose.
--Yeah, preaching to the choir there, we all believe that. But your Molinism is BASED on the idea that your God considered ALL OTHER possible decisions He COULD have made, and all other resulting outcomes. Since your God is the Uncaused Cause of EVERYTHING (since there was NOTHING that was made that was not made by Him, you believe), then your God owns all the evil that has ever existed. Since your God is absolutely omniscient, omnipotent, and sovereign (that means He always get His own way), then NO ONE could have PREVENTED your God from making an evil-free universe. NO ONE. Where there is absolute omnipotence and sovereignty and omniscience, there is absolute responsibility.

[BrianH]

--Still slow on the uptake, it seems. No, I wasn't trying to tell you that, as most high-school grads should be able to realize. I was taking your beliefs to their logical conclusion, and exposing your beliefs as being fallacious in the process.

YOUR words: "So, Brian the Molinist: What "would have happened" if God had NOT been the cause of all the evil in the universe. "

You are ***uming that God WAS the cause of all evil to begin with or at least ***uming that I beleive that nonsense. You are caught in a circular argument fallacy. You are ***UMING your own conclusion in your premise. But Jeff, God w*** NOT the cause of all the evil in the universe, nor do I believe that he was. The problem even my 12th grader daughter can spot is that you have ***UMED that YOUR conclusion is THE (or the only) conclusion. (Granted my daughter began her formal training in logic in 7th grade ...but that is another issue). The problem is, you have not shown that yours is the only or even the best inference. You have only ***UMED that I believe or must infer that God is the source of all evil. YOU are trying jam YOUR conclusions down my throat and then asking me to defend YOUR misrepresentation of my views. Yuor trick is not working. try another one.


---Not just so-called: All the evidence supports the fact that it is, in reality, a mind. Perhaps your cult has brainwashed you into believing that some people only have "so-called" minds. This sounds surrealistic. Does your cult teach you that reality is only so-called? That is one sign of cult-think

Oh really? You have a mind? Okay suppose you identify just some of "all the evidence" to which you are eluding. You can begin by demosntrating that you DO have a mind by at least thinking a little bit instead of just imagining what you think my beliefs should say. Meanwhile, that you bave been so quickly reduced calling historically orthodox Christianity a "cult" is only further proof that you are out of ammo. As usual, you are just shooting blanks Mr. NRA.


--So your cult has taught you that the idea that God is exalted, is a lie? That is cause for concern. Get out of that cult ASAP, if the Molinists have you believing such things.
No...YOUR cult (I use the term properly where you are reduced to using it incorrectly) has taught YOU that God was once a man - a creature living on another planet in outer space who subsequently went through a process that turned him into one of Mormonisms imaginary "Gods". Furthermore, were you even minimally familiar with the terms you are using you would have known that Molinism has nothing to do with God's exaltation. As long as you continue to use words you do not even understand, you will continue to embar*** yourself this way.


---Do you need to see evidence that some precolumbian cultures had a monetary system? Get up to speed, Brian, that evidence has been out for decades. Your old Tanner/Decker/Martin library is obsolete.

You have missed the point. We need to see evidence that Egyptian-writing, Jewish American Indians who were busying themselves with the task of baptizing each other into the Christian church 500 years before Jesus was even born were ALSO engaging in a monetary economy.

You ...GOT any evidence? No, you don't. And the reason why you don't is because your religion is based on the lies of a twice-convicted occult con artist and the content of your Book of Mormon is the product of his fantasies and documented plagiarisms.


--Yeah, preaching to the choir there, we all believe that.

Then you have conceded my point and the position of Molinism and according to the Bible, Christianity and Molinism, God is NOT the source of all of the evil in the universe as you misrepresented. God's FOREKNOWLDGE is not the same thing as God's creative generation. For example, God knew that you would be telling lies about portions of the Egyptian Book of the Dead supposedly REALLY being the "Book of Abraham". But is it is YOU who is lying, not God.

-BH

.

[nrajeff]

YOUR words: "So, Brian the Molinist: What "would have happened" if God had NOT been the cause of all the evil in the universe. "
You are ***uming that God WAS the cause of all evil to begin with or at least ***uming that I beleive that nonsense.

--Almost correct. I was taking your beliefs to their logical conclusion, which means that if you are consistent, you SHOULD believe that your God is the Great Uncaused Cause of evil. If you don't believe that, then you aren't following your beliefs to their logical conclusion. I guess I will have to share the Parable of the Hasbro Evil Robot Kit Designer/Builder so that you can be led to that logical conclusion that the SECOND we were created by your God, Brian, we had that "sin nature" thing programmed into us, not by our own choice (since we were embryos at the time). Your God created us from our very beginning, programmed with a guarantee that we would sin, and we had no choice in that. Who is responsible for us being created that way, Brian? Your God, that's who.

Suppose Hasbro was marketing an Evil Robot Kit, guaranteed to do evil once the robot was ***embled, and you bought it and read the warnings ("Warning: ***embling this robot will definitely, for sure, result in evil, mayhem, and general sinning of Biblical proportions!") but you went ahead and put it together anyway, and the thing went around doing all kinds of evil. Who is to blame for the evil that resulted? You, for buying it and ***embling it, knowing what it would surely do. But that's not quite ****ogous to your God, Brian, because your God is not just the purchaser of the kit--He is the Head Robot Engineer at Hasbro, and it was your God who DESIGNED and PRODUCED that Evil Robot Kit, and then went and ***embled it and turned it loose on the universe. NOW how much responsibility does your God bear for the evil that resulted? Your God KNEW for SURE, being omniscient, what would happen if He put the kit together, He had absolute power (absolutely omnipotent) to make it NOT guaranteed to do evil, and He had the autonomy (absolutely sovereign) to decree that it NOT turn out that way. Yet your God went and did it anyway, and was the one who COULD have designed it otherwise but chose not to. Your God MADE it, and made it THAT WAY, knowing beforehand that it was guaranteed to do evil. So, based on your beliefs about God, how responsible is your God for evil, Brian?

a) 100&#37; responsible

b) there is no other option for you except a)

You claim to be a logical thinker, Brian, so feel free to find errors in my logic.

[BrianH]

--Almost correct. I was taking your beliefs to their logical conclusion which means that if you are consistent, you SHOULD believe that your God is the Great Uncaused Cause of evil.

That is where you are WRONG. Your conclusion is not THE logical conclusion. It is YOUR revision of Molinism and the inference that YOU draw. I see no reason to think that I am responsible for YOUR revsion of my views or the views of Molinists everywhere. Molinism does NOT hold that God is the cause of evil. That is YOUR ignoran t or deliberate misrepresentation of my view.


Suppose Hasbro was marketing an Evil Robot Kit, guaranteed to do evil once the robot was ***embled ...& blah blah blah. <snip>

You continue to make the error of "thinking" that God's foreknowledge is God's will. This is precisely where the "middle knowledge" of Molinism refutes your ***umptions.

-BH

.

[nrajeff]

That is where you are WRONG. Your conclusion is not THE logical conclusion.
---Then point out the illogical parts. Unless you can't because there aren't any.


I see no reason to think that I am responsible for YOUR revsion of my views or the views of Molinists everywhere.
---I am gonna save that statement for future use, because it's a good, valid response to so many of the ***ertions you make against the LDS. We are not responsible for YOUR revisions of OUR views, or the views of LDS everywhere, either. So goose and gander both get what's good.


Molinism does NOT hold that God is the cause of evil.
--I never said it does hold that, I said that is where it, combined with Trinitarianism's "omni's" and TULIP, unavoidably END UP. Just following it to its logical end. The fact that Molinists are uncomfortable following their own beliefs to their logical end is another issue.


You continue to make the error of "thinking" that God's foreknowledge is God's will.
----I am not making that equivocation, but in a way it's probably true, given your beliefs. Are you gonna claim that Predestination is NOT God's will? Are mere humans able to subvert God's will? Don't you believe that God always gets His way, since He is absolutely sovereign? Whose will is more powerful than God's?

This is precisely where the "middle knowledge" of Molinism refutes your ***umptions.
---Feel free to elaborate on that refutation, but remember that I am holding your Molinism PLUS your Trinitarianism ("the 3 omnis") PLUS your Calvinism (Predestination, Sovereignty, Programmed, congenital, guaranteed sinning nature) under the microscope together. If that mixture results in a yukky-tasting stew, it ain't my fault or problem. :D

[BrianH]

---Then point out the illogical parts. Unless you can't because there aren't any.
I already did. Your fundamental methodology is wrong. You START wtih your own conclusion in your premise and then arrive at your conclusion. That is the fallacy of the circular argument. You are also mistaking God's FOREKNOWLDEGE with his WILL (another fallacy: the categorical error). God does not perform the evil you attribute to him with your revision of Molinism nor did he create the evil in the universe. He created the POSSIBILITY of evil. And just to back up here, you have not even bothered to define "evil" in the first place.


---I am gonna save that statement for future use, because it's a good, valid response to so many of the ***ertions you make against the LDS. We are not responsible for YOUR revisions of OUR views, or the views of LDS everywhere, either. So goose and gander both get what's good.
I do not misrepresent LDS teachings. I may, however, not represent the individual beliefs of a given Mormon. These are frequently quite divergent. Meanwhile you ARE misrepresenting my views AND normative Molinism.


--I never said it does hold that, I said that is where it, combined with Trinitarianism's "omni's" and TULIP, unavoidably END UP. Just following it to its logical end. The fact that Molinists are uncomfortable following their own beliefs to their logical end is another issue.
You are obviously VERY confused. First of all you absolutely DID state in perfectly clear terms that Molinism DOES affirm that God is the soruce of evil insofar as that is the fundamental premise of your question. Secondly, TULIP is not a trinitarian doctrine - TULIP states NOTHING about the doctrine of the trinity. Furthermore your inference is NOT the "logical end" of either Molinism, the trinity or TULIP. YOUR misrepresentation of Molinism is what makes me uncomfortable, Jeff - not the logical extention of Molinism itself. You have not shown that your logical derivation is valid to begin with. Just repeating your claim that it is does not hold any water.


----I am not making that equivocation, but in a way it's probably true, given your beliefs. Are you gonna claim that Predestination is NOT God's will? Are mere humans able to subvert God's will? Don't you believe that God always gets His way, since He is absolutely sovereign? Whose will is more powerful than God's?
You absolutely ARE confusing God's FOREKNOWLEDGE with his WILL. They are not the same thing. Nor is God's FOREKNOWLEDGE the same thing as predestination. You are confuing terms you apparently have yet to understand. And no, God does NOT always what he wants. For example it is God's desire that ALL people will be saved (1 Tim 2:3-4), but God knows that people like you who preach a gospel different from the one deliverdd once and for all to the saints (Jud 3) are accursed (Gal 1:8-9) and will spend eternity in hell.

In fact, God is the only one who does NOT get what he wants when it comes to the redemption of mankind. Those who respond to his call get what they want (JESUS!). Those who refuse the truth get what they want: to be apart from God. God alone does not get what he wants - YOU and all of those who willfully submit to false "prophets" and otherwise choose to serve the father of lies instead.


---Feel free to elaborate on that refutation, but remember that I am holding your Molinism PLUS your Trinitarianism ("the 3 omnis") PLUS your Calvinism (Predestination, Sovereignty, Programmed, congenital, guaranteed sinning nature) under the microscope together. If that mixture results in a yukky-tasting stew, it ain't my fault or problem.

Here again, there are so many errors, its hard to know where to start. I guess we will jsut take your errors in order: Nothing I have said conflicts with Molinism; Trinitarianism does not consist of Gods omnis and I am not a Calvinist.

-BH

.

[stemelbow]

Hey, BH, I edited the OP. I fixed the premise which you misunderstood, took issue with, and as a result ran away from answering the questions. So, with that, there is no more need for you to whine and complain, you can now go back and straight up answer the questions. Sound good?

love,
stem

[stemelbow]

Alright you got your grandstanding and deflections in...now I fixed the OP, there is no premise involved anymore, so you can go back and answer the questions. I know you won't, but I'm trying to work with you here.

love,
stem

[stemelbow]

He created the POSSIBILITY of evil.

When God created ex nihilo could he have taken away the possibility of evil?

Could He have created creatures in which evil would never have been done?

love,
stem

[BrianH]

When God created ex nihilo could he have taken away the possibility of evil?

Could He have created creatures in which evil would never have been done?

Sure! Of course. But for his own transcendent reasons he obviously knew that doing so would have resulted in a universe that was not able to achieve the purpose for which he created it.

-BH

.

[nrajeff]

When God created ex nihilo could he have taken away the possibility of evil?

Could He have created creatures in which evil would never have been done?

love,
stem

--Along those lines: Could God have created us without a genetically-coded, pre- programmed sin nature? Did He have to make Adam and Eve p*** on their curse to all their descendants? What was in it for Him to make it that way?

[stemelbow]

Sure! Of course. But for his own transcendent reasons he obviously knew that doing so would have resulted in a universe that was not able to achieve the purpose for which he created it.

-BH

.

What purpose was/is that?

[BrianH]

What purpose was/is that?

God's purposes are usually manifold. In this case, he created this universe because of His love for His creatures, His own glorification and even things that are unknowable to finite minds.

-BH

.

[stemelbow]

God's purposes are usually manifold. In this case, he created this universe because of His love for His creatures, His own glorification and even things that are unknowable to finite minds.

-BH

.

I didn't ask why he created, per se, I asked why he created with the possibility of evil.

love,
stem

[BrianH]

And that is the question I answered.

-BH

.

[BrianH]

Hey, BH, I edited the OP. I fixed the premise which you misunderstood, took issue with, and as a result ran away from answering the questions. So, with that, there is no more need for you to whine and complain, you can now go back and straight up answer the questions. Sound good?

I didn't run away from anything - I exposed the fallacious premise that you have now edited out AFTER I showed that you and Jeff had both contradicted yourselves based on the OPs former content.

How incredibly dishonest you are.

You are a man with no integrity whatsoever.

-BH

.

[BrianH]

In light of the topic of this thread, he's clearly asking you to consider how your beliefs make God look bad...essentially. He's clearly not suggesting God made any mistakes, only that your beliefs are erroneous.

Wrong. As I have explained several times now and you just continue to ignore: Jeff (like you) is announcing that HIS (and your) deliberate misrepresentation and revision of my beliefs make God look bad. It is YOUR dishonest and deliberately false representation of my beliefs that are erroneous.


I never said you credited God with the creation of evil. You have failed to comprehend what I've said again.

I have repeatedly proven that statement FALSE. AGAIN (for the third or fourth time now), YOUR very words:

quote:>> "According to non-LDS Christianity God is the source of evil." <<: unquote

I have busted you several times on this and NOW you have even gone back several days later and edited that statement out of the OP, thereby PROVING by your own actions that you recognize that you are not telling the truth. This is the kind of deliberate, deceptive behavior to which your Mormonism has reduced you, Stem.



Actually your beliefs and inability to think your religious convictions through have little to do with the logical outcome of the mainstream Christian religion.

You have just proven by your own deliberate and blatantly dishonest behavior that you lack any personal integrity whatsoever, so beyond being simply irrelevant to your own topic here, your opinion of me is meaningless.


Alright you got your grandstanding and deflections in...now I fixed the OP, there is no premise involved anymore, so you can go back and answer the questions. I know you won't, but I'm trying to work with you here.

Exposing the fallacies in your games and the personal dishonesty in your posts is not a "deflection", Stem - it is a direct attack on your shallow and deceptive gamesmanship. Your questions are all based on the false premise that I affirm that God is the "source of evil". That is false. If it were true, than your own deceptive behaviors here would be God's fault in my view. But that is not the case. YOU are responsible for your own demonstrated personal dishonesty.

-BH

.

[stemelbow]

So are you suggesting that God could not have created "this universe because of His love for His creatures, His own glorification and even things that are unknowable to finite minds" without the possibility of evil? If that is what you are suggesting, then does that not limit God?

If God had conceived of all evil deeds long before any creation took place, and He created from absolutely nothing--or His creations weren't in any form existent before creation, then obviously long before anyone raped, anyone murdered, or anyone mistreated another, God had already thought of it. In fact, not one evil deed would have been done if God did not already think of that which previously never was, correct?

love,
stem

[stemelbow]

I just want someone who is a non-LDS Christian to answer the questions I asked. If you would care to attempt such then please go ahead, or we can continue in the subthread above and see where we end up, I suppose.

love,
stem

[BrianH]

I just want someone who is a non-LDS Christian to answer the questions I asked. If you would care to attempt such then please go ahead, or we can continue in the subthread above and see where we end up, I suppose.
Okay, let's make this simple. But, first, let's clear this up: is it or is it NOT your contention that orthodox, biblical Christianity affirms that God is the soruce of all evil. You have repeatedly made overt, self-contradictory claims on this matter, so before I answer your questions I just want to know which of these two self-contradictions you are siding with.

Secondly, and again, to make it simple, I will respond to each of the individual questions here with one answer: Right. God created all created things, including the people whom he knew would enact every evil deed in the world's history and forthcoming future.

-BH

.

[stemelbow]

Okay, let's make this simple. But, first, let's clear this up: is it or is it NOT your contention that orthodox, biblical Christianity affirms that God is the soruce of all evil. You have repeatedly made overt, self-contradictory claims on this matter, so before I answer your questions I just want to know which of these two self-contradictions you are siding with.

I do not suggest the orthodox, biblical Christianity affirms anything since orthodox Christianity is not solely based on the Bible. I would not even suggest that orthodox Christianity affirms that God is the source of all evil--mostly because its adherents by and large would reject such a notion, even if they haven't thought these things through. I would suggest if taken to its logical conclusion orthodox Christianity requires that God is the source of evil.


Secondly, and again, to make it simple, I will respond to each of the individual questions here with one answer: Right. God created all created things, including the people whom he knew would enact every evil deed in the world's history and forthcoming future.

Then, Brian, logically there is no other conclusion to make. God conceived of every single evil deed before He ever created a thing. Every inhumane rape, or murder only came about because God first conceived of them. If He did not conceive of them, then they never would have been. Thus, the origin of every evil action has its place in God's conception. Such is the logical conclusion of your belief system. You can deny it...you can run from its ramifications. You can easily in brazen hubris decide you are above logic and reason and thus conclude, even in spite of this, that GOd is not the source of it all. You can. You can display cognitive dissonance and fool yourself to your hearts delight. People do that kind of stuff. But doing so does not resolve the issues your religion has at all. Its far too problematic to take seriously.

love,
stem

[BrianH]

I do not suggest the orthodox, biblical Christianity affirms anything since orthodox Christianity is not solely based on the Bible

Biblical Christianity IS based solely on the Bible, but whether it is or not, that is irrelevant here. The fact is that historically orthodox, biblical Christianity IS "non-LDS" "Christianity" by definition and that means it is included in those whom you originally said affirm that God is the source of all evil. That is false. That is YOU trying to jack-hammer YOUR faulty inferences into our mouths and then pretend to demand that we answer for them.


I would not even suggest that orthodox Christianity affirms that God is the source of all evil--mostly because its adherents by and large would reject such a notion, even if they haven't thought these things through. I would suggest if taken to its logical conclusion orthodox Christianity requires that God is the source of evil.

And you would be wrong. I know you actually think that you are the God your religion tells you that you are, but believe it or not, there have been LOTS of Christians who have thought this through FAR more cogently than you ever will.


Then, Brian, logically there is no other conclusion to make God conceived of every single evil deed before He ever created a thing. Every inhumane rape, or murder only came about because God first conceived of them. If He did not conceive of them, then they never would have been. Thus, the origin of every evil action has its place in God's conception. Such is the logical conclusion of your belief system. You can deny it...you can run from its ramifications. You can easily in brazen hubris decide you are above logic and reason and thus conclude, even in spite of this, that GOd is not the source of it all. You can. You can display cognitive dissonance and fool yourself to your hearts delight. People do that kind of stuff. But doing so does not resolve the issues your religion has at all. Its far too problematic to take seriously.

That is false. Your conclusion is based on the faulty, unproven and merely ***umed premise that God's FOREKNOWLEDGE is the same thing as his WILL. Since your premise is unproven (and even unexamined, in YOUR mind), your logic is faulty. Now let me explain the obvious to you. God is not responsible for the evil that he knew others would commit, any more than YOU are responsible for the sins of your children, even though you knew perfectly well in advance, even before you procreated them that they would sin.

-BH

[stemelbow]

Biblical Christianity IS based solely on the Bible, but whether it is or not, that is irrelevant here. The fact is that historically orthodox, biblical Christianity IS "non-LDS" "Christianity" by definition and that means it is included in those whom you originally said affirm that God is the source of all evil. That is false. That is YOU trying to jack-hammer YOUR faulty inferences into our mouths and then pretend to demand that we answer for them.

No didn't say any particular person affirmed that GOd is the source of evil...I clearly was suggesting the the mainstream Christian belief system if taken to its logical conclusion forces God to be the source of evil. Granted most, like you, haven't really thought these things through.


And you would be wrong. I know you actually think that you are the God your religion tells you that you are, but believe it or not, there have been LOTS of Christians who have thought this through FAR more cogently than you ever will.

And it is becoming more and more apparent you aren't one of them. Just because there are those who have thought it through hardly means the conclusion, if logically derived, is not there. In other words, its all smoke and mirrors for you here.



That is false. Your conclusion is based on the faulty, unproven and merely ***umed premise that God's FOREKNOWLEDGE is the same thing as his WILL.

NO. My presime ***umes no such thing. Prove that my conclusion is based on the faulty, unproven and merely ***umed presime that God's foreknowledge is the same thing as his will? My conclusions and premises were clearly stated--God, according to the mainstream Chrsitiani religion, conceived of every evil deed long before any single evil deed was ever done. He created, out of nothing mind you, every single creature and in so doing created the vehicle to do evil. He knew the deeds of every single creature before he created them.


Since your premise is unproven (and even unexamined, in YOUR mind), your logic is faulty. Now let me explain the obvious to you. God is not responsible for the evil that he knew others would commit, any more than YOU are responsible for the sins of your children, even though you knew perfectly well in advance, even before you procreated them that they would sin.

Wow...you are desperately throwing out all sorts of irrationals now. I didn't create anything ex nihilo, BH. So your ****ogy falls completely flat. The problem you are now faced with and are trying your best to either not think about or completely obfuscate is God created all creatures out of nothing, in your beliefs. There really is no way around the obvious at this point, logically speaking, but if you choose to avoid logic and dogmatically contradict the logical conclusion that's your personal choice. Just don't expect it to be acceptable in terms of logical debate tactics. Let's put it this way.

I did not nor can I create any particular creature out of non-existent material, right?

I did not conceive every evil deed which my creations will do long before I created them out of nothing, right?

We'll go to this point. HOpefully you'll start to see the problems your religion faces. So far its obvious you are either ******** of them or are attempting to wish them away.

love,
stem

[BrianH]

No didn't say any particular person affirmed that GOd is the source of evil...I clearly was suggesting the the mainstream Christian belief system if taken to its logical conclusion forces God to be the source of evil. Granted most, like you, haven't really thought these things through.

I did not say you charged any "particular person" with this view, slippery. You said that "non-LDS Christians" affirm that God is the source of evil. And your conclusion is not the logical one, or at the very least not the ONLY logical conclusion. And I was thinking this through when you were still in diapers sonny.


And it is becoming more and more apparent you aren't one of them. Just because there are those who have thought it through hardly means the conclusion, if logically derived, is not there. In other words, its all smoke and mirrors for you here.

The problem is, your "logic" is flawed. Disagreeing with YOU does not cons***ute any kind of error, least of all a logical error. YOU are the one pulling all the smoke and mirrors, Stem. You have even resorted to going back and editing the content of your original statement to avoid accounting for the clear absurdity underlying your whole effort here.


NO. My presime ***umes no such thing. Prove that my conclusion is based on the faulty, unproven and merely ***umed presime that God's foreknowledge is the same thing as his will? My conclusions and premises were clearly stated--God, according to the mainstream Chrsitiani religion, conceived of every evil deed long before any single evil deed was ever done. He created, out of nothing mind you, every single creature and in so doing created the vehicle to do evil. He knew the deeds of every single creature before he created them.

Prove the error of your ***umption? Too easy! In fact YOU just did it for me! Here, we will show the necessity of your ***umption to your argument: Take away your ***umption that God's foreknowledge is the same thing as his will and you cannot even pretend (as you have) that just because God knew there would be evil, that means he is the source of that evil. And remember, you cannot appeal to God's middle knowledge, because you have no such concept available to you without admitting that I am right.

Now let me explain your problem in a little more detail. You have ***UMED that God's knowledge of what philosophers recognize as "necessary truths" is the same thing as his knowledge of what we call "contingent truths". In fact, you don't even know the difference between these two important categories, and yet you pretend to tell me that I have not thought these things through?! Heck you don't even know what the terms mean! So let me help you out here, genius. What you have failed to recognize is what is called God's "middle knowledge", which describes things that are BOTH contingent truths AND are STILL independent of God's will. Middle knowledge refers to things that do not HAVE TO be true, but ARE true without God being the primary cause of them. YOU have mistaken necessary truth for contingent truth and attributed them all equally to God because you have no category of middle knowledge.


Wow...you are desperately throwing out all sorts of irrationals now. I didn't create anything ex nihilo, BH. So your ****ogy falls completely flat. The problem you are now faced with and are trying your best to either not think about or completely obfuscate is God created all creatures out of nothing, in your beliefs. There really is no way around the obvious at this point, logically speaking, but if you choose to avoid logic and dogmatically contradict the logical conclusion that's your personal choice. Just don't expect it to be acceptable in terms of logical debate tactics. Let's put it this way.

You have just accused me of using an irrational argument. Please identify the failure of my rationality. What fallacies did I commit? Where did my conclusion NOT follow my premises? When you fail to answer these simple questions it will remain obvious that you are using words you do not even understand.

Secondly, one need NOT have created ANYTHING ex-nihilo in order to know in advance that it would fail to be perfect. You have committed a non-sequiter in ***uming that ONLY things created out of nothing are the responsibility of their creator. That is false. The FACT is, you most certainly do NOT take responsibility for the sins of your children and you know it. But using your damaged logic (the creator is responsible for the acts of the creature), you MUST. But you DONT. YOU are the one avoiding YOUR OWN logic, Stem. Whether you created your children ex nihlo or not, you are STILL not responsible for their sins.


I did not nor can I create any particular creature out of non-existent material, right?

Again, this is irrelevant to the ****ogy. The simple fact is that before you procreated your children, they did not exist. After you procreated them, they sinned just like you most certainly knew they would. So using YOUR damaged logic, YOU are responsible for their sin, because had you NOT procreated them, they would never have existed in order to make the choice to sin. But you procreated them ANYWAY in the full knowledge that they would do evil.


I did not conceive every evil deed which my creations will do long before I created them out of nothing, right?

Again, irrelevant to the ****ogy, it does not matter in principle. You KNEW for certain that your own children would sin, and in fact you DID know at least MANY of the specific kinds of sins they would commit, such as disrespecting you. (And if you did NOT know for certain that your children absolutely would disrespect you, you are even further divorced from reality than most other Mormons).

Meanwhile, I note with interest that you have yet to even try to answer your own question from the Mormon perspective, which is quite telling given the fact that this is the MORMON board.

-BH

.

[stemelbow]

I did not say you charged any "particular person" with this view, slippery. You said that "non-LDS Christians" affirm that God is the source of evil. And your conclusion is not the logical one, or at the very least not the ONLY logical conclusion. And I was thinking this through when you were still in diapers sonny.

You previously said, "The fact is that historically orthodox, biblical Christianity IS "non-LDS" "Christianity" by definition and that means it is included in those whom you originally said affirm that God is the source of all evil."

Who is the "whom" you refer to? Those particular people who consider themselves non-LDS Christians of course. Those particular people. I did not suggest any particular people affirmed that God is the source of evil. I suggested that non-LDS Christianity if taken to its logical conclusion forces God to be the source of evil. And it remains obvious you haven't really though this all through, just like many of your co-religionists. I do not suggest you or any of your co-religionists affirm that God is the source of evil, even though JD once admitted God certainly is indirectly.


Prove the error of your ***umption? Too easy! In fact YOU just did it for me! Here, we will show the necessity of your ***umption to your argument: Take away your ***umption that God's foreknowledge is the same thing as his will and you cannot even pretend (as you have) that just because God knew there would be evil, that means he is the source of that evil. And remember, you cannot appeal to God's middle knowledge, because you have no such concept available to you without admitting that I am right.

Sadly my point, untouched by you for some reason we'll have to get to later, is that taking His will out of the equation altogether still, if taken to its logical conclusion, forces upon God to be the source of evil. I'll re-explain since you have failed to address it. God conceived of every evil act that each of his creations would do before He created them out of nothing. Its really that simple. Evil started in God's conception as a result. It did not start in any particular act a man or the devil did...it was before they/we even existed.


Now let me explain your problem in a little more detail. You have ***UMED that God's knowledge of what philosophers recognize as "necessary truths" is the same thing as his knowledge of what we call "contingent truths". <snip>

This is a clear obfuscation, BH, just like your desperate flailing molinism reference. I haven't ***umed anything about what God considers true. Get back on topic if you will.


You have just accused me of using an irrational argument. Please identify the failure of my rationality. What fallacies did I commit? Where did my conclusion NOT follow my premises? When you fail to answer these simple questions it will remain obvious that you are using words you do not even understand.

Weak ****ogy would fit best. Your ****ogy rests on the notion that me having offspring is akin to God creating everything out of nothing in terms of knowing what the offspring or creature will do.

You are ***uming (A) God and (B) ME are similar
Since in your estimation God can create ex nihilo and knows full well each deed each creation will do before creating that that somehow equates to me having offspring when I can't create ex nihilo or know anything my offspring will do.


Secondly, one need NOT have created ANYTHING ex-nihilo in order to know in advance that it would fail to be perfect.

That's total obfuscation again, BH. This has nothing to do with knowing something would fail to be perfect but has everything to do with God conceiving of each and every evil deed that would be practiced before He went ahead and created. You are continually missing the point, most likely because you haven't thought these things through, but possibly because you are trying to obscure things so they don't seem so bad.


You have committed a non-sequiter in ***uming that ONLY things created out of nothing are the responsibility of their creator. That is false. The FACT is, you most certainly do NOT take responsibility for the sins of your children and you know it.

This makes no sense and outlines your desperation. My offspring are not created by me ex nihilo. So your vain attempt to describe it as a non sequitur, misspelling notwithstanding but an obvious error showing your i-gnorance, is erroneous.


But using your damaged logic (the creator is responsible for the acts of the creature), you MUST. But you DONT. YOU are the one avoiding YOUR OWN logic, Stem. Whether you created your children ex nihlo or not, you are STILL not responsible for their sins.

You have misunderstood from the beginning. I never suggested I'm responsible for my offspring's sins. My goodness what are you trying to say that God procreated all of us even though we in some way already existed? You're so all over the place, it's adorable.


Again, this is irrelevant to the ****ogy. The simple fact is that before you procreated your children, they did not exist. After you procreated them, they sinned just like you most certainly knew they would. So using YOUR damaged logic, YOU are responsible for their sin, because had you NOT procreated them, they would never have existed in order to make the choice to sin. But you procreated them ANYWAY in the full knowledge that they would do evil.

Wow you missed it completely. Hopefully if you actually read what I write this time you'll get it.


Again, irrelevant to the ****ogy, it does not matter in principle. You KNEW for certain that your own children would sin, and in fact you DID know at least MANY of the specific kinds of sins they would commit, such as disrespecting you. (And if you did NOT know for certain that your children absolutely would disrespect you, you are even further divorced from reality than most other Mormons).

BH you are either woefully i-gnorant of LDS teaching or even more woefully i-gnorant of the ramifications of your own beliefs. Either way your desperate flailing here is adorable to watch, if nothing else. My offspring, according to my beliefs, exist whether I procreate or not. That's a huge difference that you just don't seem to get. We are highlighting how your beliefs are problematic and you just don't seem to get it, most likely because you haven't thought about it. I'm trying to help you, but if you obtusely refuse to listen then you'll most likely remain woefully i-gnorant of the ramifications of your beliefs.


Meanwhile, I note with interest that you have yet to even try to answer your own question from the Mormon perspective, which is quite telling given the fact that this is the MORMON board.

Oh, BH, its not that hard to figure out. Notably you haven't tried to figure your own religions beliefs out so its no surprise you can't figure mine out. To me, God did not create ex nihilo, therefore even though He knew the deeds I would do, my existence was. Therefore my deeds whether good or evil were going to happen outside of his control. I know you'll try your best to focus in on my beliefs in some unrelated fashion to get out of it all, but let's not get completely silly here as you often do.

love,
stem

[BrianH]

You previously said, "The fact is that historically orthodox, biblical Christianity IS "non-LDS" "Christianity" by definition and that means it is included in those whom you originally said affirm that God is the source of all evil."

Who is the "whom" you refer to?


Why ...All non-LDS who are Christians, of course. I would have thought that was obvious.


Sadly my point, untouched by you for some reason we'll have to get to later, is that taking His will out of the equation altogether still, if taken to its logical conclusion, forces upon God to be the source of evil. I'll re-explain since you have failed to address it. God conceived of every evil act that each of his creations would do before He created them out of nothing. Its really that simple. Evil started in God's conception as a result. It did not start in any particular act a man or the devil did...it was before they/we even existed.

Well here we have a perfect illustration of your problem. You think you can blame God for things that are not in his will. That is the fundamental problem here, and you have not explained (much less "re-explained") how you can even pretend to blame God for evil just becuase he knew it would happen.


BH>>Now let me explain your problem in a little more detail. You have ***UMED that God's knowledge of what philosophers recognize as "necessary truths" is the same thing as his knowledge of what we call "contingent truths". <snip>

S>This is a clear obfuscation, BH, just like your desperate flailing molinism reference. I haven't ***umed anything about what God considers true. Get back on topic if you will.

"Obfuscation"?? What's the matter Stem, could you not understand the big words. This is simple. There are what we recognize as "necessary truths" and "contingent truths". They are not the same thing. Your hand-waving dismissal does not sustain your accusation here.



Weak ****ogy would fit best. Your ****ogy rests on the notion that me having offspring is akin to God creating everything out of nothing in terms of knowing what the offspring or creature will do.

If that is the best you can do, then you have nothing. The fact is, in the context of knowing our children will do evil things, my ****ogy is sufficient. God knew that we would sin, just like you know that your children will sin. Your children did not exist before you procreated them. Whether they were created out of the myth of "eternal matter" or not is irrelevant to the ****ogy.


That's total obfuscation again, BH. This has nothing to do with knowing something would fail to be perfect but has everything to do with God conceiving of each and every evil deed that would be practiced before He went ahead and created. You are continually missing the point, most likely because you haven't thought these things through, but possibly because you are trying to obscure things so they don't seem so bad.

Once again, having no actual argument to refute my position, all you can do is demonstrate your difficulty understanding my rather simple and obvious point by calling it an obfuscation. Furthermore, your rhetoric is getting increasingly desperate (as usual). Knowing people would commit evil acts in advance has EVERYTHING to do with knowing that people would commit evil acts. Yes, God went ahead and created - but he did not commit the evil acts. YOU actually commit your own sins, Stem. Just because God knew you would sin does not mean that he created the sin you comm***ed.


This makes no sense and outlines your desperation. My offspring are not created by me ex nihilo. So your vain attempt to describe it as a non sequitur, misspelling notwithstanding but an obvious error showing your i-gnorance, is erroneous.

While your opinion is predictable, you have failed to substantiate it with a valid argument. Whether you created them out of existing matter or not is IRRELEVANT; the FACT is they did not exist such that they COULD sin and then, AFTER you procreated them, they did exist and DID sin, just as you knew they would. Using your mistaken logic in pretending that God must be held accountable for all evil (on the Christian view), YOU are equally responsible for the sins of your children.

Or are you somehow above the judgment that you require me to place on God?


You have misunderstood from the beginning. I never suggested I'm responsible for my offspring's sins. My goodness what are you trying to say that God procreated all of us even though we in some way already existed? You're so all over the place, it's adorable.


I understood since before you even asked the question, Stem. And YOU are the one who has just demonstrated that YOU do not even understand what you just read: I never said that YOU suggested you are responsible. Learn to read. I am the one telling YOU that according to your damaged logic, if God is responsible for sin because he created the people who commit it knowing in advance that they will sin, then YOU are equally responsible for the sins of your children because you procreated them, knowing in advance that they would sin. You are not above the judgment that you place on God as you misrepresent the Christian view.


Wow you missed it completely. Hopefully if you actually read what I write this time you'll get it.

More meaningless hand waving dismissals from the Mormon. Your empty rhetoic followed by NOTHING where you SHOULD be substantiating your accusations is all anyone needs to see to conclude that you are now shooting blanks. That did not take long at all.


BH you are either woefully i-gnorant of LDS teaching or even more woefully i-gnorant of the ramifications of your own beliefs. Either way your desperate flailing here is adorable to watch, if nothing else. My offspring, according to my beliefs, exist whether I procreate or not. That's a huge difference that you just don't seem to get. We are highlighting how your beliefs are problematic and you just don't seem to get it, most likely because you haven't thought about it. I'm trying to help you, but if you obtusely refuse to listen then you'll most likely remain woefully i-gnorant of the ramifications of your beliefs.

As usual, you post no actual argument, just hand-waving dismissals and repe***ions of your claims. Where you SHOULD be offering reasoned arguments in support of your claims, all you are doing is repeating them. But ...This is the sum total of the state of all Mormon apologetics, so no one should be surprised.


Oh, BH, its not that hard to figure out. Notably you haven't tried to figure your own religions beliefs out so its no surprise you can't figure mine out. To me, God did not create ex nihilo, therefore even though He knew the deeds I would do, my existence was. Therefore my deeds whether good or evil were going to happen outside of his control. I know you'll try your best to focus in on my beliefs in some unrelated fashion to get out of it all, but let's not get completely silly here as you often do.
To you, God is an exalted man who operates under laws that existed before he could obey them. You think the God of the Bible has his own Gods, despite the fact that he tells you in perfectly obvious terms that he does not know any other Gods.

Meanwhile, that God created ex-nihlo is irrelevant to the issue here. The God of the Bible is transcendent over creation and thus not subject to its confines and limitations. Just because God fore-knew that evil would exist, that does not mean that he performed the evil that has occurred. Your attempt to misrepresent the Christian view and then make me account for your misrepresentation has failed. The Christian view is that YOU were created in the image of God with free will and YOU chose to sin; God did not cause you to sin.

-BH

.

[stemelbow]

Well here we have a perfect illustration of your problem. You think you can blame God for things that are not in his will. That is the fundamental problem here, and you have not explained (much less "re-explained") how you can even pretend to blame God for evil just becuase he knew it would happen.

I have already explained it has nothing to do with his will, as you keep trying to force upon this discussion. I never brought His will into the discussion...you did.


"Obfuscation"?? What's the matter Stem, could you not understand the big words. This is simple. There are what we recognize as "necessary truths" and "contingent truths". They are not the same thing. Your hand-waving dismissal does not sustain your accusation here.

Again I didn't bring anything about what are truths and how we can define them here. This is your obfuscation. I get your desperate attempt...no need to repeat it. Perhaps in your mind other readers don't get it.


If that is the best you can do, then you have nothing. The fact is, in the context of knowing our children will do evil things, my ****ogy is sufficient. God knew that we would sin, just like you know that your children will sin. Your children did not exist before you procreated them. Whether they were created out of the myth of "eternal matter" or not is irrelevant to the ****ogy.

There is absolutely no connection here. God conceived of every evil rape, how it would happen and under what circumstances it would come about, for instance. This long before he created any vehicle, out of nothing mind you, to do the evil deed. I have absolutely no idea what my offspring are going to do...I can't even confirm that any are going to sin in any way. I only ***ume they will. And I did not create something that otherwise would not exist. There is such a huge difference here its adorable your desperately trying to cling to this.


Once again, having no actual argument to refute my position, all you can do is demonstrate your difficulty understanding my rather simple and obvious point by calling it an obfuscation. Furthermore, your rhetoric is getting increasingly desperate (as usual). Knowing people would commit evil acts in advance has EVERYTHING to do with knowing that people would commit evil acts. Yes, God went ahead and created - but he did not commit the evil acts. YOU actually commit your own sins, Stem. Just because God knew you would sin does not mean that he created the sin you comm***ed.

You misunderstand my explanation plain and simple. Its obvious. And its obvious you have never really thought very hard about your beliefs. Its not a matter of God knowing sin would occur. You keep hammering that in some desperate attempt to avoid the actual points I've raised. Its not just that He knew sins would occur, but its that he actually conceived of every evil deed before he created anything. The actual deed of rape wasn't thought of in the mind of the first man to rape...it began in the conception of God before that man was. I know you don't get it. I know you will avoid the issue in hopes you won't have to deal with it. But that's how it is. That's what your beliefs suggest, if followed to their logical conclusions.


While your opinion is predictable, you have failed to substantiate it with a valid argument. Whether you created them out of existing matter or not is IRRELEVANT; the FACT is they did not exist such that they COULD sin and then, AFTER you procreated them, they did exist and DID sin, just as you knew they would. Using your mistaken logic in pretending that God must be held accountable for all evil (on the Christian view), YOU are equally responsible for the sins of your children.

My beliefs are much different than yours on this, BH. My offspring already exist, according to my beliefs, before I procreated them. And still beside the point, an obfuscation. I'm sure its just that you don't understand. You can't understand, or you are not wanting to see. Even if a mortal person knows his/her offspring will sin, that hardly means that mortal person, created out of nothing, or that that person was the original one who conceived of all the particular evil deeds we, as the human family, do. Thus, this point, untouched by you due to your inability to understand, is true according to the logical conclusions of mainstream Christianity.


I understood since before you even asked the question, Stem. And YOU are the one who has just demonstrated that YOU do not even understand what you just read: I never said that YOU suggested you are responsible. Learn to read. I am the one telling YOU that according to your damaged logic, if God is responsible for sin because he created the people who commit it knowing in advance that they will sin, then YOU are equally responsible for the sins of your children because you procreated them, knowing in advance that they would sin. You are not above the judgment that you place on God as you misrepresent the Christian view.

I just keep addressing this failed logic you continue to rehe**** as if you are told to just keep repeating this red herring time and time again in hopes it will go away. Sorry, read above. let it sink in, perhaps you will get it.


Meanwhile, that God created ex-nihlo is irrelevant to the issue here. The God of the Bible is transcendent over creation and thus not subject to its confines and limitations. Just because God fore-knew that evil would exist, that does not mean that he performed the evil that has occurred. Your attempt to misrepresent the Christian view and then make me account for your misrepresentation has failed. The Christian view is that YOU were created in the image of God with free will and YOU chose to sin; God did not cause you to sin.

I never said God committed the sins He originally conceived of. His sin, if you remained consistent with your beliefs, is that He conceived of the grotesque and evil deeds long before they ever were committed. Or are you trying to suggest that lusting after a woman is not a sin?

love,
stem

[BrianH]

BH>>Well here we have a perfect illustration of your problem. You think you can blame God for things that are not in his will. That is the fundamental problem here, and you have not explained (much less "re-explained") how you can even pretend to blame God for evil just becuase he knew it would happen.

S>I have already explained it has nothing to do with his will, as you keep trying to force upon this discussion. I never brought His will into the discussion...you did.

Then you are making my point: if the occurrence of evil has "nothing to do with (God's) will" (which is what have been telling you all along) then you cannot say that the logical extension of orthodox theology is to blame God for the occurrence of evil.

The entire rest of your argument hinges totally and completely on this point and you have just conceded my position, Stem.

There is really nothing left to say ...though I am certain that you will say it anyway. But you and I both know the one thing you will NOT do is even try to field a Mormon explanation for the problem you have invented and tried to jack-hammer into my mouth and then ask me to account for it.

-BH

.

[stemelbow]

Then you are making my point: if the occurrence of evil has "nothing to do with (God's) will" (which is what have been telling you all along) then you cannot say that the logical extension of orthodox theology is to blame God for the occurrence of evil.

The entire rest of your argument hinges totally and completely on this point and you have just conceded my position, Stem.

Not one piece of my argument hinges on this point. Thus, its obvious you don't get it. here I'll explain it again without any mention of God's will.

Before God created anything....

He conceived of every evil deed that would be done. Before any evil deed was done or will be done God conceived of them before any creating, out of nothing, on His part, took place. Cain, for instance, committed a great sin, but that sin was not first conceived in his or the devil's mind. God thought of it long before either of them, right? Thus the sin only came about because God conceived of it, sans His will. Whether He willed sin/evil or not is another question currently being asked in a different thread.


There is really nothing left to say ...though I am certain that you will say it anyway. But you and I both know the one thing you will NOT do is even try to field a Mormon explanation for the problem you have invented and tried to jack-hammer into my mouth and then ask me to account for it.

I already gave a mormon explanation for this problem. I didn't invent this problem, BH, but its been around for many centuries and remains unresolved among mainstream christians.

love,
stem

[John T]

You previously said, "The fact is that historically orthodox, biblical Christianity IS "non-LDS" "Christianity" by definition and that means it is included in those whom you originally said affirm that God is the source of all evil." This is certainly no more the case than is the case that Mormons are the primogenitors of syphilis. Essentially, yours is an atheistic position that admits the reality and presence of evil, but simultaneously denies the possibility of an all-powerful, and all-knowing God.


Who is the "whom" you refer to? Those particular people who consider themselves non-LDS Christians of course. Those particular people. I did not suggest any particular people affirmed that God is the source of evil. I suggested that non-LDS Christianity [OXYMORON ALERT] if taken to its logical conclusion forces God to be the source of evil. And it remains obvious you haven't really though this all through, just like many of your co-religionists. I do not suggest you or any of your co-religionists affirm that God is the source of evil, even though JD once admitted God certainly is indirectly. There is no way that FJD, with his very similar to my theological perspective, could even hint of such a blasphemy against God! Most likely, he stated that God id sovereign over evil, and that his permission of its existence means no more than His purpose in permitting evil has not been completed, or revealed.

Your "****ysis" is skewed because you have based your premises on a faulty proposition, and you do not extrapolate how that "conclusion" could be derived. In short, you have built a house of a foundation of sand.


Sadly my point, untouched by you for some reason we'll have to get to later, is that taking His will out of the equation altogether still, if taken to its logical conclusion, forces upon God to be the source of evil. I'll re-explain since you have failed to address it. God conceived of every evil act that each of his creations would do before He created them out of nothing. Its really that simple. Evil started in God's conception as a result. It did not start in any particular act a man or the devil did...it was before they/we even existed.Let's p**** this for demonstration of your wrong foundation.

No one can ever take God "out of the picture" of anything. He spoke the world into existence, and it is folly to believe that such a being would "abandon" His creation. This is very similar to the belief of 18th century deism, and is simply the "watch maker theory".

"God conceived of every evil act" is fallacious and is attributing to God the creation of evil. It is also blasphemous. His sovereignty does not extend to every evil act of a creative reprobate, but his sovereignty extends over those acts so that none of those creatively evil acts will ever thwart His plans.



You are ***uming (A) God and (B) ME are similar
Since in your estimation God can create ex nihilo and knows full well each deed each creation will do before creating that that somehow equates to me having offspring when I can't create ex nihilo or know anything my offspring will do. RED HERRING ALERT



That's total obfuscation again, BH. This has nothing to do with knowing something would fail to be perfect but has everything to do with God conceiving of each and every evil deed that would be practiced before He went ahead and created. You are continually missing the point, most likely because you haven't thought these things through, but possibly because you are trying to obscure things so they don't seem so bad. Sorry, but Brian is not missing the point, YOU ARE. If you want to attribute to God the creation of evil, then as I stated above, you may as well attribute to LSD people the origins of syphilis. Both positions are equally absurd.

You see the false choice dilemma you create is that either God is sovereign, and can eliminate evil, or else the existence of evil militates against a just, righteous and holy God. it is you who can not grasp that they exist simultaneously, and that ONE reason for the existence of evil and suffering in the world is that so that God can provide a Savior, whereby through absolute reliance on the things that Jesus did, and without anything like "Temple Tickets" AKA "works justification" the one who accepts this unmerited grace, coming without any precondition MAY BE ***URED of entering heaven.

LDS theology is so works oriented that it requires the person to have so many good works to merit a certain level of heaven. That is an***hetical to what Scripture says, hence, you have another faulty presupposition.



BH you are either woefully i-gnorant of LDS teaching or even more woefully i-gnorant of the ramifications of your own beliefs. Either way your desperate flailing here is adorable to watch, if nothing else. My offspring, according to my beliefs, exist whether I procreate or not. That's a huge difference that you just don't seem to get. We are highlighting how your beliefs are problematic and you just don't seem to get it, most likely because you haven't thought about it. I'm trying to help you, but if you obtusely refuse to listen then you'll most likely remain woefully i-gnorant of the ramifications of your beliefs Your gloating and pomposity are over bearing and completely without merit. What most LDS people fail to understand is free, unmerited grace, and that is the ONLY remedy and explanation for the existence of evil.


Here is a great summary, and explanation of what your beliefs lead to, and what REAL Christians, like FJD, BH and others like me are trying to say to you.

God should destroy all evil. The cl***ic way of stating this objection based on evil is as follows:
(1) If God is all-good. He will destroy evil.
(2) If God is all-powerful. He can destroy evil.
(3) But evil is not destroyed.
(4) Therefore, there is no all-good, all-powerful God.

But, as was stated in chapter 19 (p. 292), there is an implied time limit on God in premise 3. And second, it is possible that there is no way to destroy evil without also destroying the good of permitting free creatures. Indeed, the argument may be restated to prove just the opposite of what the atheists intend. For if there is an all-powerful God, then we have the ***urance that evil will be defeated without destroying freedom.

It may be argued this way:
(1) If God is all-good. He will defeat evil.
(2) If He is all-powerful. He can defeat evil.
(3) Evil is not yet defeated.
(4) Therefore evil will one day be defeated.

In short, grant that the theistic God exists and there is automatically a solution to the problem of evil. Thus if the grounds for believing God exists are good (see chap. 19), then evil is explained.


Geisler, N. L., Feinberg, P. D., & Feinberg, P. D. (1980). Introduction to philosophy : A Christian perspective (323). Grand Rapids, Mich.: Baker Book House.


I sincerely hope that this helps your understanding of things in the REAL Christian faith.

[stemelbow]

This is certainly no more the case than is the case that Mormons are the primogenitors of syphilis. Essentially, yours is an atheistic position that admits the reality and presence of evil, but simultaneously denies the possibility of an all-powerful, and all-knowing God.

Not true. I am not an atheist. thus, you have directly contradicted my position, when attempting to define my position--its a straw man.


There is no way that FJD, with his very similar to my theological perspective, could even hint of such a blasphemy against God! Most likely, he stated that God id sovereign over evil, and that his permission of its existence means no more than His purpose in permitting evil has not been completed, or revealed.

Take it up with him.

Y
our "****ysis" is skewed because you have based your premises on a faulty proposition, and you do not extrapolate how that "conclusion" could be derived. In short, you have built a house of a foundation of sand.

Interesting set of ***ertions, wrong, but most importantly bald.


Let's p**** this for demonstration of your wrong foundation.

No one can ever take God "out of the picture" of anything. He spoke the world into existence, and it is folly to believe that such a being would "abandon" His creation. This is very similar to the belief of 18th century deism, and is simply the "watch maker theory".

"God conceived of every evil act" is fallacious and is attributing to God the creation of evil.

Great. So to you, John, in spite of the mainstream Christian perspective, God could not have conceived of every single act each person would do before He created them? Your argument is now not only with Father JD, but also BrianH. A sticky position to be in. Truly Father JD is much closer to the mainstream concept than BrianH is, and you are even further from the mainstream Christian perspective than BrianH.


It is also blasphemous. His sovereignty does not extend to every evil act of a creative reprobate, but his sovereignty extends over those acts so that none of those creatively evil acts will ever thwart His plans.

That doesn't make sense. Care to clarify?


RED HERRING ALERT


uh do you know what a red herring is?


Sorry, but Brian is not missing the point, YOU ARE.

I'm missing my own point? Whatever.


If you want to attribute to God the creation of evil, then as I stated above, you may as well attribute to LSD people the origins of syphilis. Both positions are equally absurd.

LSD people? On what basis do you claim that LSD people originated syphilis? Please explain yourself. So far you haven't explained anything.


You see the false choice dilemma you create is that either God is sovereign, and can eliminate evil, or else the existence of evil militates against a just, righteous and holy God. it is you who can not grasp that they exist simultaneously, and that ONE reason for the existence of evil and suffering in the world is that so that God can provide a Savior, whereby through absolute reliance on the things that Jesus did, and without anything like "Temple Tickets" AKA "works justification" the one who accepts this unmerited grace, coming without any precondition MAY BE ***URED of entering heaven.

you're further off the point than BrianH. I admire your efforts to defend BH and FJD, but your comments prove you need to re-read my comments. You have misunderstood.


LDS theology is so works oriented that it requires the person to have so many good works to merit a certain level of heaven. That is an***hetical to what Scripture says, hence, you have another faulty presupposition.

You should have posted the RED HERRING ALERT here, since you are the one guilty of such.


Your gloating and pomposity are over bearing and completely without merit.

You don't like that? Great...I'm mirroring, BrianH. He's taught me well.


What most LDS people fail to understand is free, unmerited grace, and that is the ONLY remedy and explanation for the existence of evil.

Okay, how does the concept of free, unmerited grace save you from the explanations I've offered?


Here is a great summary, and explanation of what your beliefs lead to, and what REAL Christians, like FJD, BH and others like me are trying to say to you.

God should destroy all evil. The cl***ic way of stating this objection based on evil is as follows:
(1) If God is all-good. He will destroy evil.
(2) If God is all-powerful. He can destroy evil.
(3) But evil is not destroyed.
(4) Therefore, there is no all-good, all-powerful God.

This is a straw-man. I'm afraid you don't know my position, so your attempt to attack it is rather pointless.


But, as was stated in chapter 19 (p. 292), there is an implied time limit on God in premise 3. And second, it is possible that there is no way to destroy evil without also destroying the good of permitting free creatures. Indeed, the argument may be restated to prove just the opposite of what the atheists intend. For if there is an all-powerful God, then we have the ***urance that evil will be defeated without destroying freedom.

It may be argued this way:
(1) If God is all-good. He will defeat evil.
(2) If He is all-powerful. He can defeat evil.
(3) Evil is not yet defeated.
(4) Therefore evil will one day be defeated.

In short, grant that the theistic God exists and there is automatically a solution to the problem of evil. Thus if the grounds for believing God exists are good (see chap. 19), then evil is explained.


Geisler, N. L., Feinberg, P. D., & Feinberg, P. D. (1980). Introduction to philosophy : A Christian perspective (323). Grand Rapids, Mich.: Baker Book House.


I sincerely hope that this helps your understanding of things in the REAL Christian faith.

uh...you did not address my position in the least, and you failed to address my arguments. Oh well.

love,
stem

[BrianH]

As you try to blame me for thinking that God is responsible for all evil, you have yet to address the simple, self-evident fact that if God did not will the evil, then he is not responsible for it. Knowing about evil and causing it are two very different things. You knew your children would sin before they ever even existed. Using YOUR damaged logic, we must conclude that YOU are responsible for THEIR sins.


I already gave a mormon explanation for this problem.

Where?


I didn't invent this problem, BH, but its been around for many centuries and remains unresolved among mainstream christians.

You DID invent it. You are pretending that there is no other conclusion other than to attribute all evil to God on the view of Biblical Christianity. That is false. Just because God KNEW that evil would occur, does not mean that he is the source of evil. Nevertheless, you overlook that fact and have invented a fantasy where he IS responsible and tried to jam your fantasy down my throat. Its YOUR problem, Stem - not mine.

-BH

.

[Bat-Man]

I would suggest if taken to its logical conclusion orthodox Christianity requires that God is the source of evil.
I think it might help you if you showed how "logic" would necessarily lead to that conclusion.

I don't think it does, stem, and I can back up what I am saying with logic.


Then, Brian, logically there is no other conclusion to make.
Yes there is, and even BrianH can see that, stem.


God conceived of every single evil deed before He ever created a thing.
Right.


Every inhumane rape, or murder only came about because God first conceived of them.
Wrong. Bad logic. Very very very very very bad logic.


If He did not conceive of them, then they never would have been.
The fact the he knew his children would sin is not what made them sin, stem.

Try putting that thought into your equation, stem.

Even corrupt and apostate Christians know how to do that, on this issue.


Thus, the origin of every evil action has its place in God's conception.
Wrong.

Wrong.

Wrong.

Wrong.

Wrong.

Try giving corrupt and apostate Chrisitans a little more credit than you are giving to them, stem.

They're basically like us even though they have made some opposite choices.

They think what is really false is true, to some extent.

They think what is really evil is good, to some extent.

People who do what is evil often think that what they are doing is good.

People make their own choices, stem.

Joseph Smith wasn't the first one who came up with the concept of "agency".


Such is the logical conclusion of your belief system. You can deny it...you can run from its ramifications. You can easily in brazen hubris decide you are above logic and reason and thus conclude, even in spite of this, that God is not the source of it all. You can. You can display cognitive dissonance and fool yourself to your hearts delight. People do that kind of stuff. But doing so does not resolve the issues your religion has at all. Its far too problematic to take seriously.
I suggest that you take the problem a little more seriously, stem.

If it wasn't for God helping us to know what is good, we would likely be doing evil while thinking that evil is good.... and it would not be God's fault.

God gave us the power to choose between good and evil, and when we don't choose to do good, what we are doing is evil.

Logic is good, stem, but use it correctly.

[stemelbow]

As you try to blame me for thinking that God is responsible for all evil, you have yet to address the simple, self-evident fact that if God did not will the evil, then he is not responsible for it.

I didn't blame you for anything, certainly not for thinking that GOd is responsible for evil. My argument has nothing to do with the will of God. It was a nice attempt at a sleight of hand trick on your part, but His will has nothing to do with my explanation, that you keep running away from. I know you don't get it, but running from it just seems silly.


Knowing about evil and causing it are two very different things.

Sure they are but that does not address my argument. You are lost.


You knew your children would sin before they ever even existed. Using YOUR damaged logic, we must conclude that YOU are responsible for THEIR sins.

Brian, this is silly. My logic did not suggest one thing about procreating children. I already told you I don't "know" my children will sin, I can only ***ume. While they most likely will I still do not know, nor did I initially conceive of each of their sins.


Where?

A few posts up. Just re-read my posts and you'll find it.



You DID invent it. You are pretending that there is no other conclusion other than to attribute all evil to God on the view of Biblical Christianity. That is false. Just because God KNEW that evil would occur, does not mean that he is the source of evil. Nevertheless, you overlook that fact and have invented a fantasy where he IS responsible and tried to jam your fantasy down my throat. Its YOUR problem, Stem - not mine.

You are not even addressing my argument, but instead just throwing out ***ertions that do not pertain. Its silliness, BH...Its adorable and it surely displays your unwillingness or inability to think through your beliefs. My concern is what would cause you to be so lost and unable to think for yourself. I can't answer that just yet, but we may end up there.

Let's review some of the questions for which you answered "right" to:


Before creating (ex nihilo) anything God was all there was, correct?

Before God created (ex nihilo) He knew, had to know, that evil things would be practiced, correct?

God being all powerful and able to create anything in any form and with any behavior he wanted, chose to create creatures (like satan) that would do evil things. He certainly didn't have to create Satan, right?

Also before creating (ex nihilo) God knew all the evil acts that would be done, right?

If so, before any being was created, before any evil action could be done, evil ideas originated in the "mind" of God, right?


God was all there was before creating.
He knew before creating that evil would be done.
God chose to create being who would do evil, even though He didn't have to create beings who would do evil.
God knew each evil act before creating.

This means God created all creatures absolutely, out of nothing. God also knew every single evil deed that would be done, and he knew how each deed would be done. Thus before creating He conceived of the evil deeds long before they were done. The deeds themselves, this means, would not be done unless He thought of them. In other words, no evil deeds would have happened if He did not conceive of them, long before they were done. With will not in the picture, (who knows what he wanted?) its obvious the only conclusion possible is that evil began, in the conscious of God, and it would not have come about if He did not conceive of it. This is what you have avoided responding to.

love,
stem

love,
stem

[stemelbow]

Sorry, Batman, I choose not to spend my time explaining to you how their theology is bad, after I already offered the explanation. You should check out the book I referenced for you since the paper didn't help.

love,
stem

[Bat-Man]

Sorry, Batman, I choose not to spend my time explaining to you how their theology is bad, after I already offered the explanation. You should check out the book I referenced for you since the paper didn't help.

love,
stem
Let's set the record straight, shall we.

The idea that God (our Father in heaven) did not create evil or will that people commit evil is a good idea, and anyone who has that idea should hang onto it regardless of any additional truth they may be taught in the future.

If YOU want to keep telling them THEY BELIEVE God created evil or that it has ever been God's will that other people do or think something evil, you may continue to try to give them that idea for as long as you want to try to do that, regardless of how false and wrong and evil that idea really is.

[stemelbow]

Batman, its already on record, and has been for centuries, that their theology, if taken to its logical conclusion, forces upon God the genesis of evil. Sadly they do not have an answer and sadly, their theology is such that God comes out bad. God is great and good in every conceivable way. Thus, that their theology forces upon God the conception of all that is evil before He created absolutely and out of nothing is sheer blasphemy. I don't like the idea of running from the truth in hopes not to hurt someone's feelings because their beliefs are wrong. God can take it, I'm sure, but I can't.

love,
stem

[Bat-Man]

Batman, its already on record, and has been for centuries, that their theology, if taken to its logical conclusion, forces upon God the genesis of evil.
I know people have said that before, but it never has been true.

Their theology does not lead them to believe God is the author of evil.

Would it help if I said that again, in English ?

Mainstream Christian theology does not lead mainstream Christians to believe God is the author of evil.

I know people have said it does, before, but it never has been true.


Sadly they do not have an answer and sadly, their theology is such that God comes out bad.
No, not really.

Their theology leads them to believe God is NOT the author of evil, or of sin.

YOU AND OTHERS KEEP TRYING TO TELL THEM THEY BELIEVE GOD IS THE AUTHOR OF SIN, BUT THAT IS NOT WHAT THEY REALLY BELIEVE.


God is great and good in every conceivable way. Thus, that their theology forces upon God the conception of all that is evil before He created absolutely and out of nothing is sheer blasphemy. I don't like the idea of running from the truth in hopes not to hurt someone's feelings because their beliefs are wrong. God can take it, I'm sure, but I can't.

love,
stem
Let me try this approach, stem.

Try looking at it this way.

Mainstream Christians believe that at one point in time, in eternity, God was the only being in all of existence and God consisted of more than one person... namely, our Father in heaven, and Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost.

THAT is what they really believe, and if you don't believe me, just ask them.

Going further:

At some point in time, in eternity, God then decided to created other things, including people like us, and when God created all of us we were all good.

Got that much ?

None of us were evil when God originally created us, because we were good, just as everything else God created was good.

Are you following me, stem ?

Going further:

God then gave all of us the power to choose between good and evil, which meant that although we were good when God created us, God had given us the potential to become evil if we wanted to become evil, and God considered that to be good, too, because God knew it would be good to give us the power to choose between good and evil instead of just making us like some kind of robots who did only what God wanted us to do, with no other choice.

Now go ask a mainstream Christian if they believe all of that, stem, and then ask them if they believe that means God created evil or willed that other people choose to do what is evil.

I already have, and I still continue to do so, and to date I know of no mainstream Christian who believes God created evil, itself, or that it has ever been God's will for us to do what is evil.

[stemelbow]

YOu haven't paid attention to my argument, Batman. I hear your points and you left out the pertinent information in regards to their beliefs, and how if taken to its logical conclusion, there is no way out of the problem. If you care to address my actual argument and prove me wrong, then go ahead. So far you haven't shown much other than most mainstreamers in your estimation haven't thought a lot about their beliefs.

love,
stem

[Bat-Man]

YOu haven't paid attention to my argument, Batman.
Why is it that you're starting to sound like BrianH and Father_JD, stem ?

I have paid attention to your argument, and I just don't agree with you.


I hear your points and you left out the pertinent information in regards to their beliefs, and how if taken to its logical conclusion, there is no way out of the problem.
There is a way out of the problem, though.

... and they don't even have that problem to begin with !!!

They do NOT believe God is the author of sin, and NONE of their beliefs lead them to believe he is.


If you care to address my actual argument and prove me wrong, then go ahead.
I already have, several times.


So far you haven't shown much other than most mainstreamers in your estimation haven't thought a lot about their beliefs.
Did you actually read what I said about what mainstream Christians believe ?

Would you now like to go ask them if that is what they really believe ?

You keep saying their beliefs lead them to believe something they don't believe, stem.

Why do you keep doing that ?

Why do you keep saying their beliefs lead them to believe something they still don't really believe ?

[stemelbow]

Funny, I thought you sounded just like BH--not directly responding to my arguments but responding with your ***ertions which in no way address or prove my argument wrong.

I will let my arguments stand on their own merit. If you disagree then I'll wait till you actually address them. If you think you did address them then I'm willing to listen to any explanation you care to offer.

love,
stem

[Bat-Man]

If you think you did address them then I'm willing to listen to any explanation you care to offer.

love,
stem
Read carefully, stem, and then tell me if you think my logic doesn't hold up:

Mainstream Christians believe that at one point in time, in eternity, God was the only being in all of existence and God consisted of more than one person... namely, our Father in heaven, and Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost.

THAT is what they really believe, and if you don't believe me, just ask them.

Going further:

At some point in time, in eternity, God then decided to created other things, including people like us, and when God created all of us we were all good.

Got that much ?

None of us were evil when God originally created us, because we were good, just as everything else God created was good.

Are you following me, stem ?

Going further:

God then gave all of us the power to choose between good and evil, which meant that although we were good when God created us, God had given us the potential to become evil if we wanted to become evil, and God considered that to be good, too, because God knew it would be good to give us the power to choose between good and evil instead of just making us like some kind of robots who did only what God wanted us to do, with no other choice.

Now go ask a mainstream Christian if they believe all of that, stem, and then ask them if they believe that means God created evil or willed that other people choose to do what is evil.

I already have, and I still continue to do so, and to date I know of no mainstream Christian who believes God created evil, itself, or that it has ever been God's will for us to do what is evil.

Okay now ?

If not, stem, go ahead and say something like this:

You forgot to mention this: (and then tell me what I didn't mention).

If you understand what you're talking about you should be able to explain it.

[stemelbow]

Read carefully, stem, and then tell me if you think my logic doesn't hold up:

Mainstream Christians believe that at one point in time, in eternity, God was the only being in all of existence and God consisted of more than one person... namely, our Father in heaven, and Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost.

THAT is what they really believe, and if you don't believe me, just ask them.

Going further:

At some point in time, in eternity, God then decided to created other things, including people like us, and when God created all of us we were all good.

Including Lucifer? I mean I get that we believe God's creations were all good, but according to the mainstream concept at what point was Lucifer good?

Be that as it may, you forgot to mention the whole argument I made. Before creating out of nothing only God existed, right?

Also before creating He knew, or conceived of, every evil deed that would be accomplished, right?

According to the mainstream concept, every deed any man does, whether good or evil, was conceived of/thought of by God long before He created us out of nothing, right?

That must mean that unless God thought of the evil deeds that would be done, there would not be any evil deeds at all, right?

The evil deed accomplished by Cain to kill his brother wasn't first thought of by the devil or by Cain, it was thought of long before that. God thought of it before He created them, right?

The evil deed Cain did only happened because God first thought of it, right?

Thus, it must be concluded, that every evil deed was not first conceived of by any person, but by God, right?

If so, evil itself has its roots in God's conscious, right?


Got that much ?

None of us were evil when God originally created us, because we were good, just as everything else God created was good.

Are you following me, stem ?

Going further:

God then gave all of us the power to choose between good and evil, which meant that although we were good when God created us, God had given us the potential to become evil if we wanted to become evil, and God considered that to be good, too, because God knew it would be good to give us the power to choose between good and evil instead of just making us like some kind of robots who did only what God wanted us to do, with no other choice.

Now go ask a mainstream Christian if they believe all of that, stem, and then ask them if they believe that means God created evil or willed that other people choose to do what is evil.

I already have, and I still continue to do so, and to date I know of no mainstream Christian who believes God created evil, itself, or that it has ever been God's will for us to do what is evil.

Okay now ?

If not, stem, go ahead and say something like this:

You forgot to mention this: (and then tell me what I didn't mention).

If you understand what you're talking about you should be able to explain it.

Batman, I appreciate your interest in this topic. Hopefully this will help you, appreciate your own beliefs that much more. It does for me.

love,
stem

[James Banta]

Let's set the record straight, shall we.

The idea that God (our Father in heaven) did not create evil or will that people commit evil is a good idea, and anyone who has that idea should hang onto it regardless of any additional truth they may be taught in the future.

If YOU want to keep telling them THEY BELIEVE God created evil or that it has ever been God's will that other people do or think something evil, you may continue to try to give them that idea for as long as you want to try to do that, regardless of how false and wrong and evil that idea really is.

Amen God never was party to man committing sin and never force Him to do so.. In mormonism this is NOT true God force Adam to sin so that Go's plan could go forward.. One way of the other Adam had to sin.. No Children=SIN, Taking the fruit=SIN.. mormonism teaches that Adam had to take the fruit to have Children so God forced Adam to sin.. IHS jim

Oh in case you believe Adam "only transgressed" and that really wasn't sin, look again to the Bible.


1 John 3:4
Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Transgression is SIN, Sin is transgression.. IHS jim

[stemelbow]

Please take your discussion of whether God forced man to sin to another thread. This thread is about how mainstream Christianity, if taken to its logical conclusion, forces God to be the source of evil.

love,
stem

[Bat-Man]

Including Lucifer? I mean I get that we believe God's creations were all good, but according to the mainstream concept at what point was Lucifer good?
Yes, most mainstream Christians who know the origin of Lucifer (aka Satan) know that he was good when he was originally created, because they know God doesn't create anything which is evil.


Be that as it may, you forgot to mention the whole argument I made.
I didn't forget. I covered your argument in my own argument.


Before creating out of nothing only God existed, right?
According to them, that is right.


Also before creating He knew, or conceived of, every evil deed that would be accomplished, right?
Yes, according to them AND us (LDS), that is right.


According to the mainstream concept, every deed any man does, whether good or evil, was conceived of/thought of by God long before He created us out of nothing, right?
Yes, according to them AND us (LDS), that is right.


That must mean that unless God thought of the evil deeds that would be done, there would not be any evil deeds at all, right?
Yes, because God thought of everything anyone would ever do, but that doesn't mean God was the cause or author of evil.

Evil is what happens when people don't do God's will, and God created all of us with the power to choose to do his will OR NOT.

Do you get that, stem ?

It's either God's way or some other way, and we get to choose the way.


The evil deed accomplished by Cain to kill his brother wasn't first thought of by the devil or by Cain, it was thought of long before that. God thought of it before He created them, right?
Right.


The evil deed Cain did only happened because God first thought of it, right?
NO !!!

It didn't happen because God first thought of it.

The fact that God thought of it isn't what made it happen.

God simply knew what was going to happen before it happened, because God knew and still knows everything, including what Cain would do with the power God had given him to choose what he would do.

Let's see how well you understand what I am now telling you, stem.

I think you should now be able to see a flaw in your own reasoning.

[John T]

Funny, I thought you sounded just like BH--not directly responding to my arguments but responding with your ***ertions which in no way address or prove my argument wrong.

I will let my arguments stand on their own merit. If you disagree then I'll wait till you actually address them. If you think you did address them then I'm willing to listen to any explanation you care to offer.

love, tem


Actually, your so-called arguments have ZERO merit because you fail to deal with the substance of my points. I clearly stated that yours is the atheistic position. Never did I say you were an atheist. You need to explain how your position is not "atheist theology" yes, an oxymoron, but the point gets across nevertheless when you admit that there is evil, but deny that God has sovereignty over it.

As to the LDS people being the progenitors of syphilis, I figured the absurdity of that simile would demonstrate the absurdity of your statement.

Therefore I urge to get down from your exalted high chair and deal with issues. I demonstrated the faults in your argument, deal with them, nothing else.

[stemelbow]

Yes, most mainstream Christians, who know the origin of Lucifer (aka Satan) know that he was good when he was originally created, because they know God doesn't create anything which is evil.


I didn't forget. I covered your argument in my own argument.


According to them, that is right.


Yes, according to them AND us (LDS), that is right.

ahhh...your exiting the context of my comments. In context that would be when God was all there was, He created out of nothing, He was the first to conceive of evil deeds, right? That is not the same for LDS, sorry. Please understand there is a context to all of this. Let's not twist the meaning to fit our agendas.


Yes, according to them AND us (LDS), that is right.

Again let's keep it in context so you don't confuse yourself and others.


Yes, because God thought of everything anyone would ever do, but that doesn't mean God was the cause or author of evil.

Evil is what happens when people don't do God's will, and God created all of us with the power to choose to do his will OR NOT.

Do you get that, stem ?

It's either God's way or some other way, and we get to choose the way.

Sadly you just contradicted the answer to this question with the one below, for some unknown reason. If God was the only one in existence, according to "them" not us, and the evil deeds all originated in His mind, to "them" not us, then the logical and only conclusion is the origin of evil is in God's mind, because of "their" belief not ours.


NO !!!

It didn't happen because God first thought of it.

It makes no sense that you answered the above question in the affirmative and this one in the negative. They are the same question. The deeds, a logical conclusion of their theology not ours, of every creature originated in the consciousness of God. God thought of them long before they occurred. Cain's evil deed would not, again a logical conclusion of their theology not ours, have happened unless God, way back when He was all their was and conceived of creating everything out of nothing, thought of Cain killing his brother.

You are so confused because you keep mixing up our theology with theirs.


The fact that God thought of it isn't what made it happen.

Again you've mixed up our theology with theirs.


God simply knew what was going to happen before it happened, because God knew and still knows everything, including what Cain would do with the power God had given him to choose what he would do.

Let's see how well you understand what I am now telling you, stem.

I think you should now be able to see a flaw in your own reasoning.

Nope. You weren't able to prove me wrong. You only confused your beliefs with theirs in your answers and contradicted yourself in the process. I don't say that to be mean or arrogant. I just need to be clear so we can arrive at the truth.

love,
stem

[stemelbow]

Actually, your so-called arguments have ZERO merit because you fail to deal with the substance of my points. I clearly stated that yours is the atheistic position. Never did I say you were an atheist. You need to explain how your position is not "atheist theology" yes, an oxymoron, but the point gets across nevertheless when you admit that there is evil, but deny that God has sovereignty over it.

My position is not an atheistic position. It is a position critical of your theology. I don't know why you need me to prove a negative, which is illogical. If you want to prove your point, such is your burden...not mine.


As to the LDS people being the progenitors of syphilis, I figured the absurdity of that simile would demonstrate the absurdity of your statement.

Therefore I urge to get down from your exalted high chair and deal with issues. I demonstrated the faults in your argument, deal with them, nothing else.

You didn't demonstrate the faults in my arguments at all. In fact you didn't really address the main points of my argument at all. You should start by answering the OP...we can go from there.

love,
stem

[BrianH]

I didn't blame you for anything, certainly not for thinking that GOd is responsible for evil. My argument has nothing to do with the will of God. It was a nice attempt at a sleight of hand trick on your part, but His will has nothing to do with my explanation, that you keep running away from. I know you don't get it, but running from it just seems silly.
Just another falsehood. You said that I (a "Non-LDS Christian" - which is an oxymoron) believe that God is the source of all evil. That is false and your denying that you said it is also false. As for your attempt to wiggle out of your own position, if you agree with me that evil is NOT the result of God's will, then by definition, you cannot claim that I must conclude that God is responsible for evil.


Sure they are but that does not address my argument. You are lost.

If you no longer think that biblical Christianity must conclude that God is responsible for evil then you have conceded my point and YOU are lost if you continue this charade.


Brian, this is silly. My logic did not suggest one thing about procreating children. I already told you I don't "know" my children will sin, I can only ***ume. While they most likely will I still do not know, nor did I initially conceive of each of their sins.

As usual the point has totally gone over your head. I never said that your logic said anything about procreating children. It is an ****OGY (go look up the word if you don't recognize it). Your attacking the ****ogy as if it were a literal, is only further proof that you are not even paying attention. And if you did not know, before they were born that your children would sin you are a very naive and even mindless person.


A few posts up. Just re-read my posts and you'll find it.

In other words you are again NOT telling the truth. That's what I thought. Typical Mormon. I can only wonder if you Mormon guys ever get tired of trying to deceive people.


You are not even addressing my argument, but instead just throwing out ***ertions that do not pertain. Its silliness, BH...Its adorable and it surely displays your unwillingness or inability to think through your beliefs. My concern is what would cause you to be so lost and unable to think for yourself. I can't answer that just yet, but we may end up there.

I have trashed your so-called "argument". You even had to go back and deceptively edit out your original statement to hide the absurdity of your "argument". Your deceptions are bluntly obvious, Mormon - as usual. Somehow you think no one can see how you have been caught in your deceptive efforts. But its no surprise. Your whole religion worships lies and lying.


Let's review some of the questions for which you answered "right" to:

Quote:
Before creating (ex nihilo) anything God was all there was, correct?

Before God created (ex nihilo) He knew, had to know, that evil things would be practiced, correct?

God being all powerful and able to create anything in any form and with any behavior he wanted, chose to create creatures (like satan) that would do evil things. He certainly didn't have to create Satan, right?

Also before creating (ex nihilo) God knew all the evil acts that would be done, right?

If so, before any being was created, before any evil action could be done, evil ideas originated in the "mind" of God, right?
God was all there was before creating.
He knew before creating that evil would be done.
God chose to create being who would do evil, even though He didn't have to create beings who would do evil.
God knew each evil act before creating.

This means God created all creatures absolutely, out of nothing. God also knew every single evil deed that would be done, and he knew how each deed would be done. Thus before creating He conceived of the evil deeds long before they were done. The deeds themselves, this means, would not be done unless He thought of them. In other words, no evil deeds would have happened if He did not conceive of them, long before they were done. With will not in the picture, (who knows what he wanted?) its obvious the only conclusion possible is that evil began, in the conscious of God, and it would not have come about if He did not conceive of it. This is what you have avoided responding to.

Not only have I NOT avoided ANYTHING, I have directly refuted your amateur ramblings; and refuting your weak fallacies was INCREDIBLY easy. Here it is again: Just because God KNEW that there would be evil in the universe, does not mean that he is responsible for that evil, any more than YOU would be rightly held responsible for the evil of your own children even though you knew that your children would sin.

Your attempt to force YOUR damaged logic down MY throat is a failure, Stem. Give it up. You are a total dilettante and you lack the education and intellectual acumen to even try to foist this off.

And when you can answer your own questions, you will have BEGUN the process of rationalizing the speculations of your own religion. Until then your failure to pin your straw man on Christians remains self-evident.

-BH

.

[Bat-Man]

ahhh...your exiting the context of my comments. In context that would be when God was all there was, He created out of nothing, He was the first to conceive of evil deeds, right?
First to conceive of their evil deeds, right... according to their theology.

Their beliefs don't affirm he was the one who did those evil deeds, though.

God knew what another person was going to do even before he created that other person, but he wasn't the one who made that evil choice.

... and all of this is according to THEIR OWN theology, which is in agreement with ours on this issue.


That is not the same for LDS, sorry. Please understand there is a context to all of this. Let's not twist the meaning to fit our agendas.
I think you're so accustomed to seeing them wrong on so many other issues that you can't see that they are actually right on this issue, stem.

On this issue, they are actually in agreement with us, even though they believe there was nothing else before God while we (LDS) don't believe that.


Again let's keep it in context so you don't confuse yourself and others.
I am, and I'm basing what I'm saying on what I knew as a mainstream Christian.


Sadly you just contradicted the answer to this question with the one below, for some unknown reason.
No I didn't, stem. You think I contradicted myself, but I didn't.


If God was the only one in existence, according to "them" not us...
So far so good, according to them.


... and the evil deeds all originated in His mind, to "them" not us,
Evil deeds didn't originate in God's mind, according to them, stem.

According to them, God knew about all the evil deeds we would ever do once we were created, before he created us, but those deeds didn't originate in him or in his mind. He simply knew what we would do.


... then the logical and only conclusion is the origin of evil is in God's mind, because of "their" belief not ours.
Do you see where you went off track, stem ?

Do you know the difference between a thought that crosses your mind and a deed that someone else may commit ?

Do you accuse yourself of committing a sin simply because you have thought about something which is evil, or which would be evil, if someone else ever did what you thought about ?


It makes no sense that you answered the above question in the affirmative and this one in the negative. They are the same question.
No they aren't.

One question asked what God knew, and the other asked what God caused.

The fact that God thought of everything anyone would ever do doesn't mean God was the cause or author of evil.


The deeds, a logical conclusion of their theology not ours, of every creature originated in the consciousness of God.
That's not what they believe, stem.

They don't believe the deeds of every creature originated in the mind of God.

God does rightfully deserve the credit for all of the good deeds, but when people do NOT do the will of God and actually commit evil that isn't God's fault... according to both mainstream Christian theology AND ours (LDS).


God thought of them long before they occurred.
Right.


Cain's evil deed would not, again a logical conclusion of their theology not ours, have happened unless God, way back when He was all their was and conceived of creating everything out of nothing, thought of Cain killing his brother.
God never thought of killing Abel. God simply knew that Cain would.

... and, again, all of this is according to THEIR theology as well as ours.


You are so confused because you keep mixing up our theology with theirs.
I'm not confused. I simply know that we're agreement on this issue.


Again you've mixed up our theology with theirs.
... and you're determined to think they do not agree with us, aren't ya.

... which is sad, really, considering the fact that they do, on this issue.


Nope. You weren't able to prove me wrong. You only confused your beliefs with theirs in your answers and contradicted yourself in the process. I don't say that to be mean or arrogant. I just need to be clear so we can arrive at the truth.

love,
stem
The truth is that we are in agreement on this issue, and again I'm speaking from past experience of what I once knew as a mainstream Christian.

Try giving them a little credit once in a while, would ya ?

[James Banta]

Please take your discussion of whether God forced man to sin to another thread. This thread is about how mainstream Christianity, if taken to its logical conclusion, forces God to be the source of evil.

love,
stem
A mormon/atheist would say so because they seem to believe knowing that evil will happen makes a person responsible for those actions.. I don't happen to agree with that.. In fact if you had power to stop the evil in men's hearts from manifesting it's self you would be just as evil stopping the free exercise of their will as the person is you would stop from the fulfillment of his evil works..

Are you willing to cast a person into prison for the sin of murder you know they will commit before they commit the crime? I know that if a person does not repent and turn to God they will end up being cast into the Lake of Fire... Am I guilty of their crime of denying God? NO!!! IHS jim

[BrianH]

So are you suggesting that God could not have created "this universe because of His love for His creatures, His own glorification and even things that are unknowable to finite minds" without the possibility of evil? If that is what you are suggesting, then does that not limit God?

I am saying that of all possible universes, God chose to create THIS universe according to his own purpose.

Feel free to correct Him, though. I am sure that God will take your admonition to heart. After all, your religion tells you that you are one of the Gods too, right?

-BH

.

[stemelbow]

Just another falsehood. You said that I (a "Non-LDS Christian" - which is an oxymoron) believe that God is the source of all evil.

You aren't paying attention. I have conceded that in spite of the logical conclusions of your religion you do not believe that God is the source of all evil. I have repeatedly stated that you obviously haven't thought these things through; thus, you in direct contradiction to the logical conclusion of your beliefs reject the notion that GOd is the source of all evil.



That is false and your denying that you said it is also false. As for your attempt to wiggle out of your own position, if you agree with me that evil is NOT the result of God's will, then by definition, you cannot claim that I must conclude that God is responsible for evil.

You don't have to conclude anything for one. But my explanation has been clear, it is the principles and beliefs of the mainstream Christian religion when taken to their logical conclusions that puts God as the source of evil. You, BrianH, just haven't thought much about your religious beliefs, obviously.


As usual the point has totally gone over your head. I never said that your logic said anything about procreating children. It is an ****OGY (go look up the word if you don't recognize it). Your attacking the ****ogy as if it were a literal, is only further proof that you are not even paying attention. And if you did not know, before they were born that your children would sin you are a very naive and even mindless person.

I clearly explained why your ****ogy has failed. It is you who decided not to respond to my argument.


I have trashed your so-called "argument". You even had to go back and deceptively edit out your original statement to hide the absurdity of your "argument". Your deceptions are bluntly obvious, Mormon - as usual. Somehow you think no one can see how you have been caught in your deceptive efforts. But its no surprise. Your whole religion worships lies and lying.

You haven't even touched on the thrust of my argument sadly.


come about if He did not conceive of it. This is what you have avoided responding to.

Not only have I NOT avoided ANYTHING, I have directly refuted your amateur ramblings; and refuting your weak fallacies was INCREDIBLY easy. Here it is again: Just because God KNEW that there would be evil in the universe, does not mean that he is responsible for that evil, any more than YOU would be rightly held responsible for the evil of your own children even though you knew that your children would sin.

Your attempt to force YOUR damaged logic down MY throat is a failure, Stem. Give it up. You are a total dilettante and you lack the education and intellectual acumen to even try to foist this off.

And when you can answer your own questions, you will have BEGUN the process of rationalizing the speculations of your own religion. Until then your failure to pin your straw man on Christians remains self-evident.
.

There ya go again avoiding the thrust of my argument while pretending that your false ****ogy, which has already been explained to you, does not work. You never even addressed my comments about how your weak ****ogy doesn't work. You just repeated the ****ogy as though it works. The ****ogy itself proves you have neglected responding to the thrust of my argument. I don't mind. I find it all very adorable and typical BH. No big deal...

Anyway, here it is again (you know the argument you keep avoiding) in question format. Let's see if you can answer a simple question or two.

Every evil deed ever committed originated in the mind/consciousness of God, according to the logical conclusions of the mainstream Christian explanation, as you previously conceded when answering the initial questions.

You also had to admit the answer to another question was "right" which further implicates your beliefs, explained here: Not only did every evil deed originate in His mind/consciousness but if He did not think of those evil deeds, they never would have occurred.

Thus, the very seed, the very beginning of each and every evil act, did not originate in the mind of a man or the devil. Without God thinking them before creating out of nothing none of the evil deeds would have occurred, right?

If you are able to answer this question, accompanied with the previous ones you already conceded I got right, then perhaps you will begin to see the problem and be able to address my argument directly, instead of throwing out weak ****ogies that do not apply.

love,
stem

[stemelbow]

Evil deeds didn't originate in God's mind, according to them, stem.

That had to have. Besides, BH, has already conceded this point and you did too. You just said, "First to conceive of their evil deeds, right... according to their theology". Now you saythe very opposite. And you don't think you are contradicting yourself?


According to them, God knew about all the evil deeds we would ever do once we were created, before he created us, but those deeds didn't originate in him or in his mind. He simply knew what we would do.

According to them the evil deeds were initially thought of by God, but they didn't originate in his mind? Is that your argument?


Do you know the difference between a thought that crosses your mind and a deed that someone else may commit ?

That's not my argument, Batman.


Do you accuse yourself of committing a sin simply because you have thought about something which is evil, or which would be evil, if someone else ever did what you thought about ?

We will be judged by our thoughts and actions, Batman. Thoughts are part of the problem for us, but this does not apply to my argument, sadly. You must realize that. God could have created anything out of nothing that did not do the evil deeds He initially thought of. I am not one who creates out of nothing, therefore your attempt to make me like unto God, as BrianH did, presents us with a weak ****ogy--a logical fallacy--an ineffective argument.


No they aren't.

One question asked what God knew, and the other asked what God caused.

Not really. Each question asked where the original idea of the evil deed originated. Thus to answer differently only proves my point. Thanks BTW.


The fact that God thought of everything anyone would ever do doesn't mean God was the cause or author of evil.

Not in itself. This is not my argument, Batman. The fact that God thought of every evil deed, before creating ex nihilo, and each and every evil deed would not be committed if God did not first think of it, does force upon God the cause of evil. Its a sad and destructive theology.


That's not what they believe, stem.

I have many times conceeded that many to most mainstream Christians have not thought enough about their own beliefs to get the logical conclusion I've described. Its not about what they believe, but about what is the logical conclusion of their belief. If God did not first think of every evil act each creature would do, in their beliefs, then He is not what they claimed He is. He did not create ex nihilo, and He did not know every deed that each creature would do.


God never thought of killing Abel. God simply knew that Cain would.

... and, again, all of this is according to THEIR theology as well as ours.

So God never thought of that which was to occur but He knew that it would occur long before it occurred? That just makes no sense, Batman. I hope you come to realize that.


... and you're determined to think they do not agree with us, aren't ya.

... which is sad, really, considering the fact that they do, on this issue.

I'm all for building on that which we agree on, but there is no agreement on this issue. God did not create out of nothing, as you seem to think He did, according to LDS belief, and God did not originally think of every evil deed that would occur. You are simply wrong. Thanks for your input though.

love,
stem

[stemelbow]

A mormon/atheist would say so because they seem to believe knowing that evil will happen makes a person responsible for those actions..

Not true. But that is all beside the points I"ve raised. So its merely a deflection as it stands.


I don't happen to agree with that.. In fact if you had power to stop the evil in men's hearts from manifesting it's self you would be just as evil stopping the free exercise of their will as the person is you would stop from the fulfillment of his evil works..

Then you better learn to put a sock into it, when it comes to speaking your opinion on "moral" issues and when it comes to preaching the word of God.


Are you willing to cast a person into prison for the sin of murder you know they will commit before they commit the crime? I know that if a person does not repent and turn to God they will end up being cast into the Lake of Fire... Am I guilty of their crime of denying God? NO!!! IHS jim

I have no intention of casting a person in prison for not committing a crime. But that has nothing to do with my argument either.

love,
stem

[James Banta]

[stemelbow;38390]Then you better learn to put a sock into it, when it comes to speaking your opinion on "moral" issues and when it comes to preaching the word of God.

Go ahead and explain this stem.. Tell everyone what you know about me.. Have I sinned so serious a sin that I am excluded from God's forgiveness though Jesus? When does it say in the scripture that I am ****ed for eternity? Is it just because you say so? Tell me stem have you ever lied? I mean even what we call a "Little white lie"? Do you know how serious lying is?

Rev 21:8
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and *****mongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Can you be forgiven? YES!! Can I, for the sins I have sinned against God? You tell me..


I have no intention of casting a person in prison for not committing a crime. But that has nothing to do with my argument either.

You signed this message "love" I am not seeing it in you.. All I see from you is judgment.. And stem if you don't want to punish a person for sins they haven't commited yet, even knowing they will commit them, Why are you holding God to a different standard? IHS jim

[stemelbow]

Go ahead and explain this stem.. Tell everyone what you know about me..

uh, you're a male that lives in Sandy, UT like me. You seem older than I am.


Have I sinned so serious a sin that I am excluded from God's forgiveness though Jesus?

I don't know if you've even sinned per se. I imagine your sins are many but I don't know that.


When does it say in the scripture that I am ****ed for eternity?

I don't think it talks about you in scripture.


Is it just because you say so?

I did say anything about you being ****ed for eternity.


Tell me stem have you ever lied?

Yes.


I mean even what we call a "Little white lie"? Do you know how serious lying is?

I think I get how serious it is.



Rev 21:8
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and *****mongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Can you be forgiven? YES!! Can I, for the sins I have sinned against God? You tell me..

Sure.


You signed this message "love" I am not seeing it in you.. All I see from you is judgment.. And stem if you don't want to punish a person for sins they haven't commited yet, even knowing they will commit them, Why are you holding God to a different standard? IHS jim

I'm not.

love,
stem

[Bat-Man]

That had to have. Besides, BH, has already conceded this point and you did too. You just said, "First to conceive of their evil deeds, right... according to their theology". Now you saythe very opposite. And you don't think you are contradicting yourself?
No, I'm not contradicting myself. You just don't understand my perspective.

In my perspective, there is a difference between God conceiving of the evil deeds of OTHER PEOPLE, THEIR OWN evil deeds, on the one hand, and God's mind being the ORIGIN of those evil deeds with God simply creating or inspiring other people to carry out those evil deeds for him.


According to them the evil deeds were initially thought of by God, but they didn't originate in his mind? Is that your argument?
No, stem.

I'm saying that, according to them, God knew what others would do even before those others were created, but God is not the one who inspired or created those people for the purpose of doing those evil deeds he could forsee the people he created doing.


I am not one who creates out of nothing, therefore your attempt to make me like unto God, as BrianH did, presents us with a weak ****ogy--a logical fallacy--an ineffective argument.
My attempt to make you like unto God ?

What on Earth are you talking about ?

What kind of God do you think I'm trying to make out of you, stem ?

Please enlighten me.


Not really. Each question asked where the original idea of the evil deed originated. Thus to answer differently only proves my point. Thanks BTW.
I think we're running and will continue to run into some trouble here because words, alone, aren't enough to convey some of these ideas, considering the fact that words, themselves, can be interpreted in several different ways.

Bottom line: Mainstream Christian's don't believe their God is Satan, and their theology doesn't lead them to believe Satan is their God, either.

Got that ?

Now try to realize that Satan is the one who they generally consider to be the one who came up with all of the evil thoughts which he now inspires other people to carry out, so the fact that YOU (stem) are saying that mainstream Christians believe God is the one who came up with all of the evil thoughts and that evil deeds originated with God is, well, let's just say that what you are doing isn't going over very well here, stem.

They're not buying what you are saying, and I don't blame them, because I didn't believe that either when I was a mainstream Christian.

Try to do more to show the distinction between our Father in heaven and Satan, stem, or at least consider all of the ways your words could be understood by the others here.


The fact that God thought of every evil deed, before creating ex nihilo, and each and every evil deed would not be committed if God did not first think of it, does force upon God the cause of evil. Its a sad and destructive theology.
Whose theology do you have in mind when you say that, stem ?

Can you see a way that you could use many of the same words when describing our (LDS) theology while having a completely different thought in your mind ?

Here, try this, for starters:

God knew what others would do even before those others were created, but God is not the one who inspired or created evil in the minds and hearts of those who he created while willing them to do what is evil.


... He did not know every deed that each creature would do.
Actually, he did, stem. God knew and still knows everything.


God did not create out of nothing, as you seem to think He did...
No, stem. I've already said they are wrong about that idea, and I was speaking from their perspective when I said what I was saying.

[James Banta]

[stemelbow;38406]uh, you're a male that lives in Sandy, UT like me. You seem older than I am.

What can I say 1952 was a very good year :)



I don't know if you've even sinned per se. I imagine your sins are many but I don't know that.

My sins were many and terrible.. Now they are gone through the blood of Jesus. All of them are gone. I confessed them to Him and to my brothers and sisters in Jesus.



I don't think it talks about you in scripture.

I am all over the Bible.. I have already given you more than one example remember the part that says all murderers and liars would be cast into the Lake of Fire, before I was in Jesus that was ME..



I did say anything about you being ****ed for eternity.

If you have had you would have been on the right path.. for that is what the fifth in my life was leading me toward.. That is what my works have earned.. That is why the grace of God is so presious to me.. IHS jim

[Bat-Man]

My sins were many and terrible.. Now they are gone through the blood of Jesus. All of them are gone. I confessed them to Him and to my brothers and sisters in Jesus.
So if anyone were to ask you if you have any sins, what would you say ?

Oh, nevermind. I can already see that you answered that question.

All of your sins are gone. You no longer have any.

I can relate, Jim.

Pretty cool, huh.

[nrajeff]

For the record, I think Stem's point is quite valid: Even though a person may believe that God is absolutely omniscient, omnipotent, and sovereign, that person may not believe that God is responsible for the creation of evil....even thought that is precisely what the person's beliefs, taken to their logical conclusion, DEMAND. Some people just don't grasp the ramifications of their beliefs.

[Bat-Man]

For the record, I think Stem's point is quite valid: Even though a person may believe that God is absolutely omniscient, omnipotent, and sovereign, that person may not believe that God is responsible for the creation of evil....even thought that is precisely what the person's beliefs, taken to their logical conclusion, DEMAND. Some people just don't grasp the ramifications of their beliefs.
Noted for the record, jeff.

I'd now like to go on record for saying that I agree with that idea, in principle, as long as the principle is applied correctly.

For example: If person X really didn't believe God was responsible for E and someone else came along and told him that he really did believe God was responsible for E even though he just said he didn't, I'd advise person X to continue believing whatever he said he believed regardless of what the other person was saying he believed.

Some people just don't grasp the ramifications of their actions.

[stemelbow]

No, I'm not contradicting myself. You just don't understand my perspective.

In my perspective, there is a difference between God conceiving of the evil deeds of OTHER PEOPLE, THEIR OWN evil deeds, on the one hand, and God's mind being the ORIGIN of those evil deeds with God simply creating or inspiring other people to carry out those evil deeds for him.

I see your confusion. It seems you think by saying origin it must also mean God inspired the evil deeds. That's not what I've said and origin does not carry that conotation. Hope that helps.

love,
stem

[stemelbow]

Fewf! finally batman you're on board.

And thanks Jeff. I was wondering if anyone was going to get it, but I already knew you did according to past comments you've made on teh matter.

BTW batman I never did say any particular person believed God is responsible for evil. I have clearly stuck with the idea that their religion if taken to its logical conclusion put God in the sticky position of being he who originated evil, and even with that any person can accept the beliefs of the mainstream Christian religion and still deny that God is the source of evil. It's illogical to do so, but anyone can do it.

love,
stem

[James Banta]

So if anyone were to ask you if you have any sins, what would you say ?

Oh, nevermind. I can already see that you answered that question.

All of your sins are gone. You no longer have any.

I can relate, Jim.

Pretty cool, huh.

If you have allowed Jesus , the Jesus who is God who always has been God, the one and only God that has ever and will ever exist, to take your sin and nail it to the cross and change you, your very nature from the natural sinful heart you were born with and let Him live within you then I would say praise God there has been a spirit birth this day.. But if you are putting your hope in a being that became a God through keeping Laws and preforming ordinances then I would understand that you were deceived in your thoughts.. IHS jim

[Bat-Man]

If you have allowed Jesus , the Jesus who is God who always has been God, the one and only God that has ever and will ever exist, to take your sin and nail it to the cross and change you, your very nature from the natural sinful heart you were born with and let Him live within you then I would say praise God there has been a spirit birth this day..

Yes, Jim, praise God, but that spiritual rebirth actually happened quite a whole ago for me, personally, and not just today.


But if you are putting your hope in a being that became a God through keeping Laws and preforming ordinances then I would understand that you were deceived in your thoughts.. IHS jim
No worries there, mate, because that's not what I believe, nor is it what other LDS believe, generally.

[James Banta]

Yes, Jim, praise God, but that spiritual rebirth actually happened quite a whole ago for me, personally, and not just today.


No worries there, mate, because that's not what I believe, nor is it what other LDS believe, generally.

Why don't we go to a stake President and ask him.. There is one right here in my neighborhood that is a really great man.. I would love to seem Him straighten you out.. IHS jim

[Bat-Man]

Why don't we go to a stake President and ask him.. There is one right here in my neighborhood that is a really great man.. I would love to seem Him straighten you out.. IHS jim
Heh, I'd rather just go straight to the top to ask God to straighten me out.

... but thank you for the vote of confidence in one of our stake presidents.

[stemelbow]

bump for BH.

love,
stem

[BrianH]

You aren't paying attention. I have conceded that in spite of the logical conclusions of your religion you do not believe that God is the source of all evil. I have repeatedly stated that you obviously haven't thought these things through; thus, you in direct contradiction to the logical conclusion of your beliefs reject the notion that GOd is the source of all evil.

No YOUR deliberate misrepresentation of my beliefs are in contradiction to YOUR revision of logic that ignores your own accusations.


You don't have to conclude anything for one. But my explanation has been clear, it is the principles and beliefs of the mainstream Christian religion when taken to their logical conclusions that puts God as the source of evil. You, BrianH, just haven't thought much about your religious beliefs, obviously.

Wrong again, sonny. In admitting that evil is NOT the will of God (my position) you have again conceded my point that God is NOT the source of evil. Trying to back out won't work. It is YOU that is identifying God as the source of evil and continuing to pretend that is my conclusion and the only conclusion. But you have already admitted that is not the case. And I was thinking and reading about this mateial when you were still making yellow in your diapers, boy.


I clearly explained why your ****ogy has failed. It is you who decided not to respond to my argument.

Your "explanation" isn't worth the bandwidth you consumed in the process. The FACT is that by YOUR logic, you are responsible for the sin of your children. Whether you created them ex hihilo or not is irrelevant. The fact is they did not exist before they sinned, you knew they would sin, yet you procreated them anyway. By YOUR logic, YOU are guilty of causing the sins they committed.


You haven't even touched on the thrust of my argument sadly.

Since you are the one making the concessions here, its hard to imagine what kind of fantasy world you are living in.


There ya go again avoiding the thrust of my argument while pretending that your false ****ogy, which has already been explained ,snip>...blah blah blah and more of the same empty repa***ions <snip>

Yer just ****in' smoke again, Stem. Just repeating your straw man fallacies does not validate them. If God did not WILL evil, then he is not the source of it. That men with free will choose to pervert the good is the fault of MEN, not God, even though he knew they would so choose.

Now go tie your shoes.

-BH

.

[nrajeff]

A mormon/atheist would say so because they seem to believe knowing that evil will happen makes a person responsible for those actions..
----Don't YOU (and many other Christians) believe that God is the person 100% responsible for all the GOOD things you do, Jim?


In fact if you had power to stop the evil in men's hearts from manifesting it's self you would be just as evil stopping the free exercise of their will as the person is you would stop from the fulfillment of his evil works..
---Who is 100% responsible for stopping you from doing the evil things that you could do but don't do? Is God evil for preventing that?


Are you willing to cast a person into prison for the sin of murder you know they will commit before they commit the crime?
---Don't you believe that God pre-judged and pre-sentenced all the people---even before they were CREATED--whom He eventually sends to hell? Something to do with predestination, omniscience, and sovereignty....

[stemelbow]

I see you have decided to not answer the question. Its quite telling that you have avoided such again, and have latched on to deflection whilst avoiding the thrust of my argument. If you're willing to leave your argument as such, then its up to you.

love,
stem

[BrianH]

I haven't avoided anything - I am not a Mormon, Stem. I have dealt with your lame straw man, damaged logic and false accusations repeatedly and all you have done is repeat them over and over. You can do the usual Mormon thing and just chant your mind-numbing mantra, if you like. But just repeating your errors is not the same thing as actually correcting them.

-BH

.

[stemelbow]

Good BH. I'm glad you have decided to avoid the last question I posed to you and leave your argument as it stands--you know the one in which you failed to even address the thrust of my own argument. It demonstrates perfectly what I've been saying all along--most mainstream Christians haven't even tried to think through their own beliefs to recognize how sinister it is.

I encourage you to continue down the illogical and unreasonable course you are on, because if you learn to apply logic and reason to your beliefs you may arrive at the logical conclusion that God is evil, ***uming your beliefs are true. I'd hate to see you turn atheist at that point. Just realize if you ever do head down that road there are alternative theologies that do not force upon God the origin of evil. And you can preserve the benefit of actually having faith in God without having to live in contradiction, lacking integrity.

love,
stem

[BrianH]

Good BH. I'm glad you have decided to avoid the last question...<snip>

I avoided nothing. I did not give you the programmed answer you want and upon which you can do nothing but REPEAT. Here is another little taste of reality for the Mormon: Disagreeing with YOU (especially with YOU) is not "avoidance".

Try as you may, you have failed to establish YOUR damaged logic as an explanation of MY beliefs. Deny it as you will, but your ***umption was revealed in the text you deceptively edited out after failing to defend it: YOU say that I (a NON-LDS) believe that God is the source of all evil and you have been trying to prove that lame ***ertion ever since.

Your deceptions fool no one but yourself, Stem. Had you any moral courage left, you would be ashamed of yourself.

-BH

.

Meanwhile, you have offered no explanation of your own, so it remains obvious that all you have is all Mormons ever have: a blindly dogmatic body of ***umptions that cannot withstand even minimal scrutiny.

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

First of all, I am quite familiar with my beliefs, so I certainly do not need you to explain them to me.

Secondly, it is obvious that YOU do NOT understand my beliefs, given your misrepresentation of them right here.

Third, since the rest of your questions are based on the unsubstantiated, falacious and false premise (that God is the source of evil), they deserve no more answer than if you had asked me to give you the date on which I stopped selling crack to first graders.

While it is obvious that you are unfamilair with the range of thought Christian scholars and philosophers have represented on this matter, if you would like me to explain my own understanding of the origin of evil, just ask. Meanwhile, since this is the MORMON forum, I suggest that rather than pretending to dictate to others what they believe, you have a responsibility to represent the MORMON view on this topic. But don't pretend to dictate to me what I believe either by fallacious questions or any other means.

-BH

.

Brian, if someone were to offer an LDS view on this topic, would you be prepared and willing to offer a Protestant view in contrast and in comparison?

[Sentinus]

Please take your discussion of whether God forced man to sin to another thread. This thread is about how mainstream Christianity, if taken to its logical conclusion, forces God to be the source of evil.

love,
stem

By this reasoning you should move this entire thread to the proper forum as THIS forum is intended to discuss Mormonism and not Christianity. ;) Really do you even pay attention to what forum you are in in your attempts to broadly misrepresent Mainstream Christianity?

Send me a link to this thread once it is placed in its correct forum and I will definitely respond. :)

Kind regards,
Sentinus

[stemelbow]

By this reasoning you should move this entire thread to the proper forum as THIS forum is intended to discuss Mormonism and not Christianity.

Mormonism is Christianity in its true form.

This thread is designed to discuss and outline how Momonism differs from Christianity in a certain way. You should stop whining about balanced discussions and start contributing something. All I've seen is you whining, even about Russell.

love,
stem

[stemelbow]

Thus, the very seed, the very beginning of each and every evil act, did not originate in the mind of a man or the devil. Without God thinking them before creating out of nothing none of the evil deeds would have occurred, right?


Here's the question you avoided. Please answer yes or no, or right or wrong. If wrong please explain how it really is in your mind.


Deny it as you will, but your ***umption was revealed in the text you deceptively edited out after failing to defend it: YOU say that I (a NON-LDS) believe that God is the source of all evil and you have been trying to prove that lame ***ertion ever since.


So you're whining about me erasing my hypothesis, as stated in the OP, so would you stop obfuscating and answer the questions suggesting that doing so is deceptive? BH, this is all a very adorable deflection, but really what does my erasing have to do with all of this? Its really just giving you something to whine about in hopes to cause a smoke screen again. Look you can either answer the questions as asked, reply appropriately to the arguments I've raised or you can continue to deflect and run from the points and questions raised. Its your choice. Either way, I'll fulfill my objective--showing for those who are logical how LDS are right on this and the mainstreamers are wrong.

love,
stem

[stemelbow]

Enlightening questions, Jeff. Thanks for adding them.

love,
stem

[Sentinus]

Mormonism is Christianity in its true form.

This thread is designed to discuss and outline how Momonism differs from Christianity in a certain way. You should stop whining about balanced discussions and start contributing something. All I've seen is you whining, even about Russell.

love,
stem



I got some questions

Before creating (ex nihilo) anything God was all there was, correct?

Before God created (ex nihilo) He knew, had to know, that evil things would be practiced, correct?

God being all powerful and able to create anything in any form and with any behavior he wanted, chose to create creatures (like satan) that would do evil things. He certainly didn't have to create Satan, right?

Also before creating (ex nihilo) God knew all the evil acts that would be done, right?

If so, before any being was created, before any evil action could be done, evil ideas originated in the "mind" of God, right?

***uming all the above is in line with your beliefs lets move on...

God created beings and knew each and every action each being would do throughout eternity, right?

He knew, for instance, that little Russ would tell his mom a lie when he was little, right?

But God, being all-powerful, didn't have to create any beings who would do anything evil right?

Without creating there would be no evil practiced there would only be God, right?

A creature would not do evil things if God first did not create that being out of nothing knowing full well all actions that being would do, right?

God knew which beings would be saved eternally and which beings would be ****ed for eternity before creating any of them, right?

God did not have to create any beings who would be ****ed for eternity, right?

There would be absolutely no suffering, of the worst kind, if God did not create, right?

Let us go to this point and see what answers we get.

And yet the OP does not clearly address your supposed intent. Hmmmm.


Mormonism is Christianity in its true form.

Now that would be a relevant thread, how about you start one that proves this??

Regards,
Sentinus

[stemelbow]

And yet the OP does not clearly address your supposed intent. Hmmmm.

Its implicit since I"m an LDS Christian. Not too hard to figure right?


Now that would be a relevant thread, how about you start one that proves this??

Go ahead and start that if you like. This one is set aside to put into an LDS belief context the problem that mainstreamers have with evil, when you take their beliefs to their logical conclusions.

love,
stem

[Sentinus]

Its implicit since I"m an LDS Christian. Not too hard to figure right?



Go ahead and start that if you like. This one is set aside to put into an LDS belief context the problem that mainstreamers have with evil, when you take their beliefs to their logical conclusions.

love,
stem


Its implicit since I"m an LDS Christian. Not too hard to figure right?

No it's off topic for this forum, unless you include your implicit opinion as to why LDS perspective on the matter is more correct than your personal understanding of "Mainstream Christian" doctrine. You could do so by offering supporting documentation, links and or quotations from universally accepted texts. Instead you start an entire thread designed to discuss when taken in it's written context ONLY "Mainstream Christian" theology. This ignoring of the other half of the problem is unbalanced. Why not say what you mean instead of counting on others to understand your implied beliefs, now that would improve communication.


Go ahead and start that if you like.
I have before, and they ultimately ended in silence from LDS posters. Using your logic I am to conclude that LDS posters are "afraid" or "running"... Right?


This one is set aside to put into an LDS belief context the problem that mainstreamers have with evil, when you take their beliefs to their logical conclusions.

And yet, your OP is void of any reference or supporting argument from the LDS perspective. All you have offered is a Mischaracterization of Mainstream Christian thought, and have left the reader nothing as to what LDS theology teaches or offers that supports your argument. Your OP is clearly one sided with a motive to "turn the tables" on those you falsely esteem as your attacker or enemy. Nothing more.

Kindest regards,
Sentinus

[stemelbow]

This ignoring of the other half of the problem is unbalanced. Why not say what you mean instead of counting on others to understand your implied beliefs, now that would improve communication.

Methinks the problem would be your ***umption. Other non-LDS folks ahve commented here, and one has answered "correct" to all my questions. That alone really makes the mainstream position look really bad...sadly. In light of LDS belief we do not answer all the questions, "correct". On top of that, I have added why I do not see why LDS beliefs do not suffer the same problems in this thread.


All you have offered is a Mischaracterization of Mainstream Christian thought...

Oh good an opinion on the actual topic. How so? I mean you may have to take your complaint to BH because he has already answered all of the questions in the OP as being "correct". So what, in particular, do you take issue with?

love,
stem

[Sentinus]

Methinks the problem would be your ***umption. Other non-LDS folks ahve commented here, and one has answered "correct" to all my questions. That alone really makes the mainstream position look really bad...sadly. In light of LDS belief we do not answer all the questions, "correct". On top of that, I have added why I do not see why LDS beliefs do not suffer the same problems in this thread.



Oh good an opinion on the actual topic. How so? I mean you may have to take your complaint to BH because he has already answered all of the questions in the OP as being "correct". So what, in particular, do you take issue with?

love,
stem


That alone really makes the mainstream position look really bad...sadly.

Which of course was what I believe was your intent all along..


Oh good an opinion on the actual topic. How so? I mean you may have to take your complaint to BH because he has already answered all of the questions in the OP as being "correct". So what, in particular, do you take issue with?

Not here in a forum focused on Mormonism, perhaps you could offer some real LDS support demonstrating how and why LDS belief is more correct. Maybe you could offer some actual scripture to back that up, and then we would have something to discuss. BTW while I am sure BH has answered authoritatively for himself and possibly others, do not make the false ***umption that he/she speaks for all of Christendom.

Kind regards,
Sentinus

[nrajeff]

Enlightening questions, Jeff. Thanks for adding them. love,stem
---They can't be good questions, or else our opponents would address them...uh, right?

[stemelbow]

Fine, run along, S. Hopefully some other non-LDS Christian will step up to the plate, and willingly discuss his/her beliefs even if they wish to criticize LDS beliefs.

love,
stem

[Sentinus]

---They can't be good questions, or else our opponents would address them...uh, right?

I get it silence equals inability.. I should remember that in the future huh?

Regards,
Sentinus

[Sentinus]

Fine, run along, S. Hopefully some other non-LDS Christian will step up to the plate, and willingly discuss his/her beliefs even if they wish to criticize LDS beliefs.

love,
stem

And hopefully you will recognize the intent of the forum you are posting in and stay on topic. More importantly maybe you will develop a sincere desire to really understand "Mainstream Christian" thought and take your excellent questions to those that desire to answer them with patience and understanding.

Regards,
Sentinus

[stemelbow]

I've tried, S. Too bad you are unwilling to help me out.

love,
stem

[Sentinus]

I've tried, S. Too bad you are unwilling to help me out.

love,
stem

Try revising your threads and wording them in a way that is specific and targeted towards Mormonism and LDS thought, or why the LDS teaching is more correct. Use specific scriptures that support your claims, and if possible the agreed upon writings of your churches leadership and prophetic counsel on matters. If you are unwilling to revise, try starting a new thread that is on topic, and see where that gets you. I am however unwilling to discuss "Mainstream Christian" theology alone without the thread being somehow directed at a specific contrast, comparison or point regarding Mormonism.

Kind regards,
Sentinus

[John T]

Not true. I am not an atheist. thus, you have directly contradicted my position, when attempting to define my position--its a straw man.

Uh, have you read what I posted?
I described your POSITION, not your person.
As I stated before, your position is that a good God, and the existence of evil can not coexist simultaneously. Here. read this from YOUR POST 49:

I suggested that Christianity if taken to its logical conclusion forces God to be the source of evil. And it remains obvious you haven't really though this all through, just like many of your co-religionists. I do not suggest you or any of your co-religionists affirm that God is the source of evil, even though JD once admitted God certainly is indirectly.
Also read this from your post 51

There is absolutely no connection here. God conceived of every evil rape, how it would happen and under what circumstances it would come about, for instance.
What ELSE do we need to address your erroneous presuppositions, other than to point them out?? Until you come up with a better reason than your scoffing at what we say, and tell us why the positions that you put forth are NOT atheistic, in nature, we will be left to read your bombast that very poorly subs***utes as intelligent discussion of an issue.


Interesting set of ***ertions, wrong, but most importantly bald. Time to see Bosley! :D
Other than saying "wrong" deal with exactly why you believe that they are wrong. Otherwise, more bombast.



Great. So to you, John, in spite of the mainstream Christian perspective, God could not have conceived of every single act each person would do before He created them? Again, more of the atheistic position, maintaining that the foreknowledge of God is helpless to prevent the evil choices of humanity.


Your argument is now not only with Father JD, but also BrianH. A sticky position to be in. Truly Father JD is much closer to the mainstream concept than BrianH is, and you are even further from the mainstream Christian perspective than BrianH. As a LDS person, you are unable to state that, especially in light of the fact that you present a faulty position as "representing mainstream Christianity".

You see, what you are doing is trying to "debate yourself" in this thread. You are not accepting plain, orthodox statements from serious Christian scholars and you are essentially stating that what you erroneously state as the "mainstream Christian position" is wrong. That is called straw man argumentation.



It is also blasphemous. His sovereignty does not extend to every evil act of a creative reprobate, but his sovereignty extends over those acts so that none of those creatively evil acts will ever thwart His plans.
That doesn't make sense. Care to clarify?Do you not understand blasphemy? That is attributing evil to a just, righteous and holy God, for it is an***hetical to his ontological being.

Do you not understand sovereignty? That means that God rules over everything, but he is not responsible for everything

Proverbs 21:1 The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will

Proberbs 16: 4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.




uh do you know what a red herring is? Yes, it is a rhetorical device to deflect discussion of the topic aT HAND. Now that I answered your question, here is one for you. Explain how the quote below is germane to or contributing to the discussion.

You are ***uming (A) God and (B) ME are similar
Since in your estimation God can create ex nihilo and knows full well each deed each creation will do before creating that that somehow equates to me having offspring when I can't create ex nihilo or know anything my offspring will do.

I'm missing my own point? Whatever. Certainly! You have demonstrated an abject failure in dealing with issues brought forth, unless you think scoffing is an intelligent subs***ute for logical discussion. TSK


LSD people? On what basis do you claim that LSD people originated syphilis? Please explain yourself. So far you haven't explained anything. Here we go AGAIN! You are taking as literal what clearly, and in context is an absurd simile. In case you failed to notice, I was critiquing your poor conclusion.


you're further off the point than BrianH. I admire your efforts to defend BH and FJD, but your comments prove you need to re-read my comments. You have misunderstood. I do not defend anyone; rather, I explain the commonly held positions, and that is what you seem not to understand.

Since in your estimation, I have not understood, perhaps if you could give a non-scoffing critique MAYBE we can progress beyond the school yard shouting match that you seem to want to make happen.



You should have posted the RED HERRING ALERT here, since you are the one guilty of such. By definition, this is a red herring, and you have the gall to accuse me of what you are doing???


You don't like that? Great...I'm mirroring, BrianH. He's taught me well. What does THIS have to do with your own discussion???


Okay, how does the concept of free, unmerited grace save you from the explanations I've offered? FINALLY, an on topic question!
One has nothing to do with the other. Grace does not militate against the freewill choice do evil.


This is a straw-man. I'm afraid you don't know my position, so your attempt to attack it is rather pointless. What is pointless is for you to carp about something, but not clearly delineate your position so that people can discuss it. Instead, you are playing us as you would play the child who is trying to hit the pinata, but you keep moving the target.

Play nicely, and deal with what I posted, or else there will be patent evidence to all here that you have no intention of having a rational discussion.

If that is evident, then I am through here.

[stemelbow]

What is pointless is for you to carp about something, but not clearly delineate your position so that people can discuss it. Instead, you are playing us as you would play the child who is trying to hit the pinata, but you keep moving the target.

Clearly, John, there was a miscommunication between us somewhere. My apologies. My position is cleared up in the questions in the OP. Do you, like BH, think the answer to each question in the OP is "right" or "correct" or "yes"? If so we can go from there. If not, then please explain what in the OP, which particular questions do not represent your belief system?

love,
stem

[stemelbow]

I don't think I'll revise it to your fancy, S. if you don't wish to participate then simply don't participate. I figure if you're going to be so petty that you will whine about this, i figure you'll probably whine about something else I revise the OP to say. Plus, there are already discussions going on based on the OP, so I don't want to change it now as if take the rug out from under them?

love,
stem

[Sentinus]

I don't think I'll revise it to your fancy, S. if you don't wish to participate then simply don't participate. I figure if you're going to be so petty that you will whine about this, i figure you'll probably whine about something else I revise the OP to say. Plus, there are already discussions going on based on the OP, so I don't want to change it now as if take the rug out from under them?

love,
stem

As for your "figuring" about my response to an on topic thread I think you would be surprised. I am however a little put off by your at***ude at times. Referring to anyone's response or lack of as "fear" based or "running" is devisive and just plain rude. Also calling someone "petty" or a "whiner" is belittling and surely isn't a great way to open up communication.

As I have said already you are free to ignore my posts, my larger goal here is to have all other non LDS posters respond to you in a similar fashion, and force the dialogue here to stay on focus to the intent of the forum. If in time I find that I am the only one that feels this way, (Which I know I am not) and others communicate this to me (Non LDS) I will of course simply move on and respect that others don't feel as I do regarding the matter. And of course I will honor any moderated request. I do have a sneaking suspicion though that moderation would agree with me, I could be wrong though. ;)

Have a great day,
Sentinus

[nrajeff]

I get it silence equals inability.. I should remember that in the future huh?
--So are they good questions? Or not?

[Sentinus]

--So are they good questions? Or not?

What really matters is how you feel about them, and the perceived value you feel they have to others who encounter them.

Every theology on the planet is a finite expression of an infinite en***y. Until God determines to part the skies and speak authoritatively in a supernatural way to all these discussions will continue. As long as man attempts in his feeble way to express that which is beyond human comprehension in guttural sounds we call words this problem will exist. All the worlds theologies and philosophies have illogical points and outcomes,some more than others.

Too many of focus to long on the destination and ignore the value of the journey.

Kind regards,
Sentinus

[John T]

I got some questions
Before creating (ex nihilo) anything God was all there was, correct?

One way to translate Genesis 1:1 is to say, "When the beginning began, God created..." Therefore that ***umes (from the original Hebrew) that all that existed was the Godhead.


Before God created (ex nihilo) He knew, had to know, that evil things would be practiced, correct? I covered this before. The omniscience of God does not ipso facto make Him responsible for the evil choices of humanity. He knew of all things that would happen to Lucifer, whom He created, and he also knew the plan of salvation before He created anything. If you do not believe that is true, please tell us from Ephesians 1 where we are wrong.


God being all powerful and able to create anything in any form and with any behavior he wanted, chose to create creatures (like satan) that would do evil things. He certainly didn't have to create Satan, right? Here we go AGAIN in the atheistic position. God's permissive will in permitting evil decisions and actions does not diminish nor thwart HIS PLANS FROM ETERNITY.


Also before creating (ex nihilo) God knew all the evil acts that would be done, right? See above. The above two statements are CLEARLY atheistic in thought. That is because they set up a false choice scenario in that either God id good, and therefore all good things should happen, or else if evil exists, then there is no holy God. Therein lies your false reasoning.


If so, before any being was created, before any evil action could be done, evil ideas originated in the "mind" of God, right? From that atheistic position, you make another error in logic: God is then the author of evil since all that God created was good.


***uming all the above is in line with your beliefs lets move on...OBVIOUSLY an error and an erroneous ***umption. So you should have ended your insipid "gotcha game" before you got here. The rest of your "conclusions" (Did you "borrow" these from someone else?) are improbable, impossible and do not merit discussion.

You see this thread does not work as you hoped it might. Because you failed to understand the things I discussed, and are unable, due to being a works-oriented LDS person, you are unappreciative, and perhaps blinded, having an inability to understand how the righteousness of Jesus Christ is imputed (charged to) the "credit side" of the Christian's account with God, and as a result of that, there is therefore NEVER any condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, meaning Christians who are saved by grace, and not earning 'Temple Tickets" to have "sealings" to merit acceptance in heaven.


God created beings and knew each and every action each being would do throughout eternity, right? YES

He knew, for instance, that little Russ would tell his mom a lie when he was little, right? YES

But God, being all-powerful, didn't have to create any beings who would do anything evil right? WRONG

Without creating there would be no evil practiced there would only be God, right? WRONG

A creature would not do evil things if God first did not create that being out of nothing knowing full well all actions that being would do, right? WRONG

God knew which beings would be saved eternally and which beings would be ****ed for eternity before creating any of them, right? WRONG

God did not have to create any beings who would be ****ed for eternity, right? WRONG

There would be absolutely no suffering, of the worst kind, if God did not create, right? WRONG

Let us go to this point and see what answers we get.

love, stem

[stemelbow]

As for your "figuring" about my response to an on topic thread I think you would be surprised. I am however a little put off by your at***ude at times. Referring to anyone's response or lack of as "fear" based or "running" is devisive and just plain rude. Also calling someone "petty" or a "whiner" is belittling and surely isn't a great way to open up communication.

As I have said already you are free to ignore my posts, my larger goal here is to have all other non LDS posters respond to you in a similar fashion, and force the dialogue here to stay on focus to the intent of the forum. If in time I find that I am the only one that feels this way, (Which I know I am not) and others communicate this to me (Non LDS) I will of course simply move on and respect that others don't feel as I do regarding the matter. And of course I will honor any moderated request. I do have a sneaking suspicion though that moderation would agree with me, I could be wrong though. ;)

Its okay if you wish to whine about me as a poster rather than talk about the topics of threads. Its up to you, but its off-topic and a deflection from the point of the thread. Kinda funny seeing as you are whining about being off-topic when you haven't posted a response on-topic yet. Such deflection lends credence to the idea that you have something to hide or fear. NO big deal...I just hope you learn to deal with it.

love,
stem

Have a great day,
Sentinus[/QUOTE]

[stemelbow]

One way to translate Genesis 1:1 is to say, "When the beginning began, God created..." Therefore that ***umes (from the original Hebrew) that all that existed was the Godhead.

Great that's an agreement.


I covered this before. The omniscience of God does not ipso facto make Him responsible for the evil choices of humanity. He knew of all things that would happen to Lucifer, whom He created, and he also knew the plan of salvation before He created anything. If you do not believe that is true, please tell us from Ephesians 1 where we are wrong.

I can see you conceded that this one was correct as well, right?


Here we go AGAIN in the atheistic position. God's permissive will in permitting evil decisions and actions does not diminish nor thwart HIS PLANS FROM ETERNITY.

This was not an answer to my question. Please try again.


See above. The above two statements are CLEARLY atheistic in thought.

Actually no, my thoughts are strictly LDS, and from that vantage point I see a clear problem with your belief system. Be that as it may it seems you agree that this question is correct too, great.


From that atheistic position, you make another error in logic: God is then the author of evil since all that God created was good.

By this non-answer are you conceeding the point? DId God originally conceive of every evil deed before creating ex nihilo? BTW I am arguing from an LDS position not an atheistic position as you keep suggesting.


OBVIOUSLY an error and an erroneous ***umption. So you should have ended your insipid "gotcha game" before you got here. The rest of your "conclusions" (Did you "borrow" these from someone else?) are improbable, impossible and do not merit discussion.

Wow. I'm not sure what was an error since you never described exactly what was in error. I did not borrow these particular questions no. Just so you know BrianH, at least, answered correct to all the questions. So, it appears youought to whine to him about he doesn't understand mainstream beliefs before you should whine about me supposedly not knowing. It seems obvious to me, and probably to him, that you are the one who doesn't understand. Oh well. Your jumping to conslusions instead of answering questions seems to hit the nail on the head here.


You see this thread does not work as you hoped it might. Because you failed to understand the things I discussed, and are unable, due to being a works-oriented LDS person, you are unappreciative, and perhaps blinded, having an inability to understand how the righteousness of Jesus Christ is imputed (charged to) the "credit side" of the Christian's account with God, and as a result of that, there is therefore NEVER any condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, meaning Christians who are saved by grace, and not earning 'Temple Tickets" to have "sealings" to merit acceptance in heaven.

Actually its working perfectly. One great complaint by many a mainstreamer--BH, Russell, JD and the like is that LDS haven't thought much, generally about their own beliefs. This thread has shown that you and BH haven't thought much about your own beliefs. I already know JD and Russell haven't thought these things through totally either. For one, the complaint that LDS don't know a lot about or haven't htought a lot about LDs belief is merely a hypocritcal complaint. For another, this problem is the ultimate, in my imagination, in terms of destructive beliefs. Its a sad and terrible theology you believe in.

love,
stem

[Sentinus]

Its okay if you wish to whine about me as a poster rather than talk about the topics of threads. Its up to you, but its off-topic and a deflection from the point of the thread. Kinda funny seeing as you are whining about being off-topic when you haven't posted a response on-topic yet. Such deflection lends credence to the idea that you have something to hide or fear. NO big deal...I just hope you learn to deal with it.

love,
stem




And around and around we go. You start a thread that is off topic and completely out of place in the context it is written, and I point it out. You then call me a whiner and accuse me of being off topic since I am not responding to your off topic post in any way other than to try and kindly remind you to try and stay on topic. I then continue being cordial to you even though you have been insulting, belittling and rude. Yup it all makes sense now. I am the problem.. NOT.

Kind regards,
Sentinus

[stemelbow]

And around and around we go. You start a thread that is off topic and completely out of place in the context it is written, and I point it out. You then call me a whiner and accuse me of being off topic since I am not responding to your off topic post in any way other than to try and kindly remind you to try and stay on topic. I then continue being cordial to you even though you have been insulting, belittling and rude. Yup it all makes sense now. I am the problem.. NOT.

Kind regards,
Sentinus


I enjoy that you keep posting comments in this thread about me when you have failed to stay on topic yet accuse me of being off topic. If it was against the purpose of this forum then appeal to the moderator and leave her to her duties. Its easy really. But all of your comments about trying to define my agenda after I already gave you my agenda was nothing but cordial in your mind I"m sure.

I have taken up a mirror and reflected the treatment I've been getting around here, sure. But deep down I love you all so don't take it personally.

love,
stem

[nrajeff]

What really matters is how you feel about them, and the perceived value you feel they have to others who encounter them.
---Well, I would be perceiving more of that value if those who have appointed themselves attackers of what I believe, would RESPOND to my questions with real answers. Otherwise, I could start thinking that maybe my questions were not that great.

"A mormon/atheist would say so because they seem to believe knowing that evil will happen makes a person responsible for those actions."
----Don't YOU (and many other Christians) believe that God is the person 100% responsible for all the GOOD things you do, Jim?

"In fact if you had power to stop the evil in men's hearts from manifesting it's self you would be just as evil stopping the free exercise of their will as the person is you would stop from the fulfillment of his evil works.."
---Who is 100% responsible for stopping you from doing the evil things that you could do but don't do? Is God evil for preventing that?

"Are you willing to cast a person into prison for the sin of murder you know they will commit before they commit the crime?"
---Don't you believe that God pre-judged and pre-sentenced all the people---even before they were CREATED--whom He eventually sends to hell? Something to do with predestination, omniscience, and sovereignty....


Every theology on the planet is a finite expression of an infinite en***y.
--But that doesn't mean that all theologies have equal amounts of accurate info about God.


Until God determines to part the skies and speak authoritatively in a supernatural way to all these discussions will continue.
--I am all for having appropriate discussions.

[Sentinus]

I enjoy that you keep posting comments in this thread about me when you have failed to stay on topic yet accuse me of being off topic. If it was against the purpose of this forum then appeal to the moderator and leave her to her duties. Its easy really. But all of your comments about trying to define my agenda after I already gave you my agenda was nothing but cordial in your mind I"m sure.

I have taken up a mirror and reflected the treatment I've been getting around here, sure. But deep down I love you all so don't take it personally.

love,
stem

Around and around we go. I consider it rude not to respond to a post intended for me. I have reread your OP numerous times. It has NOTHING to do with LDS thought, and is completely off focus in a forum designated to discuss LDS beliefs. Perhaps if within your OP you mentioned how LDS thought clarifies things, or why you felt the theology was inaccurate you and I wouldn't be going back and forth so unproductively.

If you are tired of this back and forth, then I offer you an opportunity to simply not respond. I will not think it rude, nor will I believe that your silence is a concession that either of us is right or wrong on the matter. We can simply disagree. Hopefully in the future you will take a little more time in formulating your OP's and I will have nothing to say about them other than to offer my opinions on the topic itself. believe me I am capable of doing so.

I recently started a thread addressed to all LDS, I personally would love to hear your response. Additionally I think if you were to read my exchange with Vlad in that thread you could learn a little more about me. Just a suggestion. :) Have a great day.

Kindest regards,
Sentinus

[Sentinus]

---Well, I would be perceiving more of that value if those who have appointed themselves attackers of what I believe, would RESPOND to my questions with real answers. Otherwise, I could start thinking that maybe my questions were not that great.

"A mormon/atheist would say so because they seem to believe knowing that evil will happen makes a person responsible for those actions."
----Don't YOU (and many other Christians) believe that God is the person 100% responsible for all the GOOD things you do, Jim?

"In fact if you had power to stop the evil in men's hearts from manifesting it's self you would be just as evil stopping the free exercise of their will as the person is you would stop from the fulfillment of his evil works.."
---Who is 100% responsible for stopping you from doing the evil things that you could do but don't do? Is God evil for preventing that?

"Are you willing to cast a person into prison for the sin of murder you know they will commit before they commit the crime?"
---Don't you believe that God pre-judged and pre-sentenced all the people---even before they were CREATED--whom He eventually sends to hell? Something to do with predestination, omniscience, and sovereignty....


--But that doesn't mean that all theologies have equal amounts of accurate info about God.


--I am all for having appropriate discussions.


--But that doesn't mean that all theologies have equal amounts of accurate info about God.

It doesn't have to mean that they don't either


I am all for having appropriate discussions.

As am I, I find that challenging my beliefs by interacting with others who see things differently is helpful in helping me see the diversity that is God. You are someone I believe that has helped me become a better person, and has additionally helped me see God more clearly, for that I am thankful.

I fear my answers to your questions based on my religious outlook will not be helpful, but I will respond.

Don't YOU (and many other Christians) believe that God is the person 100% responsible for all the GOOD things you do

Yes and no.

In fact if you had power to stop the evil in men's hearts from manifesting it's self you would be just as evil stopping the free exercise of their will as the person is you would stop from the fulfillment of his evil works..

It really depends on how you perceive God, and our relationship with Him/Her. Stopping it and allowing it in my opinion are both the will of God.

Who is 100% responsible for stopping you from doing the evil things that you could do but don't do? Is God evil for preventing that?

See above.

Are you willing to cast a person into prison for the sin of murder you know they will commit before they commit the crime?

Nope.

Don't you believe that God pre-judged and pre-sentenced all the people---even before they were CREATED--whom He eventually sends to hell? Something to do with predestination, omniscience, and sovereignty...

No I do not. Nor, do I see things so simplistically

Hope this helps,
Sentinus

[John T]

This was not an answer to my question. Please try again. That WAS the correct answer. You simply refused to accept it, and NO, YOU ARE NOT MY TEACHER!


Actually no, my thoughts are strictly LDS, and from that vantage point I see a clear problem with your belief system. Be that as it may it seems you agree that this question is correct too, great.OBVIOUSLY you have not studied philosophy. That is a description of the cl***ic atheistic position.

NO I DID NOT AGREE

By this non-answer are you conceeding (sic) the point? DId God originally conceive of every evil deed before creating ex nihilo? BTW I am arguing from an LDS position not an atheistic position as you keep suggesting. LDS may share this with atheists, but atheists had it first. You may want to research Robert Ingersol, he began his career nearby me in Dresden NY.


Wow. I'm not sure what was an error since you never described exactly what was in error. I did not borrow these particular questions no. Just so you know BrianH, at least, answered correct to all the questions. So, it appears you ought to whine to him about he doesn't understand mainstream beliefs before you should whine about me supposedly not knowing. It seems obvious to me, and probably to him, that you are the one who doesn't understand. Oh well. Your jumping to conslusions (sic) instead of answering questions seems to hit the nail on the head here.I utterly reject your subs***uting condescension for rational dialog. (Besides that, I strongly urge that you use a spell checker before you spew out more rudeness and belittling.


Actually its working perfectly. One great complaint by many a mainstreamer (SIC) --BH, Russell, JD and the like is that LDS haven't thought much, generally about their own beliefs. This thread has shown that you and BH haven't thought much about your own beliefs. I already know JD and Russell haven't thought these things through totally either. For one, the complaint that LDS don't know a lot about or haven't htought a lot about LDs belief is merely a hypocritcal (sic) complaint. For another, this problem is the ultimate, in my imagination, in terms of destructive beliefs. Its a sad and terrible theology you believe in. love, stem

This post displays that you are neither interested in rational discussion, nor civility. Therefore, I end my acting in a Christ-like way with you here. You have this thread to yourself.

YOUR LACK OF COMMON COURTESY AND COMMON SENSE REEK

[stemelbow]

I consider it rude not to respond to a post intended for me.

Then why are you being rude not responding to the OP which was intended for anyone who is criticizing LDS that is a mainstreamer?

love,
stem

[nrajeff]

As am I, I find that challenging my beliefs by interacting with others who see things differently is helpful in helping me see the diversity that is God. You are someone I believe that has helped me become a better person, and has additionally helped me see God more clearly, for that I am thankful.
---Thanks, that was very kind of you to say.

I fear my answers to your questions based on my religious outlook will not be helpful, but I will respond.
---And I am grateful for the answers. Please note that my questions were in response to JohnT's arguments, and my questions were really directed to him first. Since he never responded, I was willing to hear from anyone else "on the other side" who had an opinion. So thanks. You are the first and so far only one to address the questions.

[Sentinus]

---Thanks, that was very kind of you to say.

---And I am grateful for the answers. Please note that my questions were in response to JohnT's arguments, and my questions were really directed to him first. Since he never responded, I was willing to hear from anyone else "on the other side" who had an opinion. So thanks. You are the first and so far only one to address the questions.


Thanks, that was very kind of you to say.

It's the truth and was shared because to seldom do we thanks those that have helped shape who we have become and will become in the future. I can only hope that I have influenced others in similar ways..

You are welcome btw for the answers.

Kindest regards,
Sentinus

[stemelbow]

Thanks for avoiding and dodging questions and the poitns I raised. At least by not addressing how any of what I said was wrong, we can see either you don't understand your own beliefs or you are causing a great deflection because you are quite embarr***ed about your beliefs. Either way, I'm cool if you wish to leave your argument as stated. It helps my case, in the long run.

love,
stem

[Sentinus]

Thanks for avoiding and dodging questions and the poitns I raised. At least by not addressing how any of what I said was wrong, we can see either you don't understand your own beliefs or you are causing a great deflection because you are quite embarr***ed about your beliefs. Either way, I'm cool if you wish to leave your argument as stated. It helps my case, in the long run.

love,
stem

While it may be clear to you whom this post is intended for, it may not be so clear to others. I am ***uming John T but you know what they say about ***uming.

A little more clarity would be nice.

Just an Fyi in this very thread my interactions with NRA may help you see a little more clearly my motivation and focus here at Walter MArtin since you seem to be missing them I thought I could point it out for you.

Kind regards,
Sentinus

[stemelbow]

I use the hybrid mode, S, as other posters instructed me to avoid confusion. Therefore all of my responses are direct responses to the posts I click to respond to. I hope my explanation helps because you'll find other posters here do the same. Its easy to follow along when we're all doing the same.

I don't care what your motivations are. All I know is you are frequently avoiding the topic of trheads causing deflections because you disagree with how this board is supposed to be run. Its silliness.

love,
stem

[Sentinus]

I use the hybrid mode, S, as other posters instructed me to avoid confusion. Therefore all of my responses are direct responses to the posts I click to respond to. I hope my explanation helps because you'll find other posters here do the same. Its easy to follow along when we're all doing the same.

I don't care what your motivations are. All I know is you are frequently avoiding the topic of trheads causing deflections because you disagree with how this board is supposed to be run. Its silliness.

love,
stem

Actually no one has stated clearly how it SHOULD be run, so I will continue to point out what I feel is the intent, and you are free to ignore. I have invited you to start new threads reworded to make you point more clear and you have chosen not to do so. Should I ***ume you are "running" or "Afraid"? I don't feel this was, but your logic in other discussions fits this type of thinking.


Its silliness.

If you say so. Yet, others have Pm'd me agreeing with my thoughts, and even some of your LDS brothers here have at least been able to understand and see my point. You are the one that seems unable to at least see it from another perspective, accept it as valid and move on.


I use the hybrid mode

I have no idea what this is. I would if you are willing appreciate your ***istance or suggestions in how this works.. If not, I understand.

Regards,
Sentinus

[Sentinus]

I use the hybrid mode, S, as other posters instructed me to avoid confusion. Therefore all of my responses are direct responses to the posts I click to respond to. I hope my explanation helps because you'll find other posters here do the same. Its easy to follow along when we're all doing the same.

I don't care what your motivations are. All I know is you are frequently avoiding the topic of trheads causing deflections because you disagree with how this board is supposed to be run. Its silliness.

love,
stem


I don't care what your motivations are.

I kinda figured this. Hence yours are becoming crystal clear to me.

Regards,
Sentinus

[stemelbow]

I get it, pouty. You don't like me. Yiptey. I just want someone who is able to discuss this stuff without deflecting or running. It could be a delight.

love,
stem

[Sentinus]

I get it, pouty. You don't like me. Yiptey. I just want someone who is able to discuss this stuff without deflecting or running. It could be a delight.

love,
stem


You don't like me.
Honestly, I don't know you well enough to form any opinion either way as of yet.

Again you ***ume incorrectly, and in the process use antagonism and veiled insults to seemingly bolster your position that I am somehow avoiding a conversation with you. Yet, you ignore my many requests to start another thread, any thread that has some amount of focus on the topic of Mormonism.

I agree, it could be a delight, and am sure with the amount of intelligence I personally feel you have demonstrated with others here would be mutually beneficial. Alas you seem content slinging mud instead.

Kindest regards,
Sentinus

[stemelbow]

Again you ***ume incorrectly, in terms of your ***umptions of me. I have no intention of slinging mud. I have every intention of discussing the topic of the thread. Which you continue to avoid and instead try to complain about me. Cute as it may be, I would prefer you actually discuss the topic.

love,
stem

[Sentinus]

Again you ***ume incorrectly, in terms of your ***umptions of me. I have no intention of slinging mud. I have every intention of discussing the topic of the thread. Which you continue to avoid and instead try to complain about me. Cute as it may be, I would prefer you actually discuss the topic.

love,
stem

I have already addressed my opinion on your OP. I even actually participated in this thread by answering NRA's questions on the topic which no one else attempted to do.. You must have missed that, before you ask or conclude that I have broken my own rule doing so, I would add that NRA in my years of conversing with him has earned my admiration and respect as an individual, and I will always make exceptions for those I consider exceptional. (No matter how much we differ he has always conducted himself in a mature and respectful way, at least with me.) Perhaps you could take some posting tips from him? Cute as it may be that you keep bantering back and forth redundantly with me perhaps you could just accept my Opinion as valid for me and move on. As I said I do not perceive silence as "fear" "running" or "avoidance". Nor do I see any opinions as "Silly", "Petty", or "Pouty". I see all as equally valid and useful to learn from. I have learned much about you already and we have hardly even dialogued..

Kind regards,
Sentinus

[stemelbow]

I hear your tooting of your own horn and extend you an Amen. And I agree that NraJeff does a great *** in his posts here....much better than I, certainly better than you. He's not only nicer than I am, overall, but he is also more logical overall. Its good you answer Jeff's questions because he has earned you admiration and respect. I think that's great. I personally don't mind answering any persons questions...they're questions, if respectful, deserve answers. And they as people deserve answers whether my subjective and fallible person respects them or not. With that, I only hope you come to realize that someday.

I have already accepted that you have your opinion and it is valid to you. I simply disagree and for that I get in response a bunch of off-topic complaints about me. Somehow you think you have done so well, but I"m a bad man. Perhaps you hold the same opinion as Andy and other evan posters here? I don't know. I jsut find it all adorable is all.

love,
stem

[Sentinus]

I hear your tooting of your own horn and extend you an Amen. And I agree that NraJeff does a great *** in his posts here....much better than I, certainly better than you. He's not only nicer than I am, overall, but he is also more logical overall. Its good you answer Jeff's questions because he has earned you admiration and respect. I think that's great. I personally don't mind answering any persons questions...they're questions, if respectful, deserve answers. And they as people deserve answers whether my subjective and fallible person respects them or not. With that, I only hope you come to realize that someday.

I have already accepted that you have your opinion and it is valid to you. I simply disagree and for that I get in response a bunch of off-topic complaints about me. Somehow you think you have done so well, but I"m a bad man. Perhaps you hold the same opinion as Andy and other evan posters here? I don't know. I jsut find it all adorable is all.

love,
stem


certainly better than you.

I know he wouldn't agree, although based on our limited interaction I can see why you would feel this way. he has solicited my POV and insights numerous times. I however, think you highly logical and intelligent. Time will tell if you ever begin to grasp my true intent for my posts to you, I have explained it very clearly, yet you seem to be missing my point over and over.. And I am not referring to the surface reason we keep going back and forth on. Read some of my other posts to you a little closer.

Additionally I don't think you a bad man, I do see you as quite jaded by constantly rolling up your sleeves in defense of your faith. I perceive that your interactions with "Ev" and "Mainstream Christians" has been so narrowly focused that the whole has become poisoned in your mind.


I jsut find it all adorable is all.

Indeed I am adorable, like a BIG teddy bear just ask my wife and kids. :D

Regards,
Sentinus

[stemelbow]

I know he wouldn't agree, although based on our limited interaction I can see why you would feel this way. he has solicited my POV and insights numerous times. I however, think you highly logical and intelligent. Time will tell if you ever begin to grasp my true intent for my posts to you, I have explained it very clearly, yet you seem to be missing my point over and over.. And I am not referring to the surface reason we keep going back and forth on. Read some of my other posts to you a little closer.

Additionally I don't think you a bad man, I do see you as quite jaded by constantly rolling up your sleeves in defense of your faith. I perceive that your interactions with "Ev" and "Mainstream Christians" has been so narrowly focused that the whole has become poisoned in your mind.

Your perception of me is again wrong. I don't mind though.

love,
stem

[Sentinus]

Your perception of me is again wrong. I don't mind though.

love,
stem

Perhaps. Only time will tell. :cool:

Kindest regards,
Sentinus

[stemelbow]

I got some questions

Before creating (ex nihilo) anything God was all there was, correct?

Before God created (ex nihilo) He knew, had to know, that evil things would be practiced, correct?

God being all powerful and able to create anything in any form and with any behavior he wanted, chose to create creatures (like satan) that would do evil things. He certainly didn't have to create Satan, right?

Also before creating (ex nihilo) God knew all the evil acts that would be done, right?

If so, before any being was created, before any evil action could be done, evil ideas originated in the "mind" of God, right?

***uming all the above is in line with your beliefs lets move on...

God created beings and knew each and every action each being would do throughout eternity, right?

He knew, for instance, that little Russ would tell his mom a lie when he was little, right?

But God, being all-powerful, didn't have to create any beings who would do anything evil right?

Without creating there would be no evil practiced there would only be God, right?

A creature would not do evil things if God first did not create that being out of nothing knowing full well all actions that being would do, right?

God knew which beings would be saved eternally and which beings would be ****ed for eternity before creating any of them, right?

God did not have to create any beings who would be ****ed for eternity, right?

There would be absolutely no suffering, of the worst kind, if God did not create, right?

Let us go to this point and see what answers we get.

love,
stem

Let us sum up the evangelical religion then. Based on the only evan who answered the above questions the answer for evans is all correct, although one did suggest without any reasoning that one or two at least were wrong. I don't know which ones or how they were wrong. Either way BH answered them all correct. So that means...

To the mainstreamer...

God created all creatures out of nothing, and all actions, mostly evil but some good, were originally conceived of in the mind of God. Afterall before Lucifer was created God thought of the deeds that would make Lucifer who he is long before God created him out of nothing. Accordingly, even lucifer would not have done an evil deed if God did not first conceive of the evil deeds he was going to do. He wouldn't have rebelled if God did not conceive of his rebellion, how it would come about, what inside him which caused his rebellion, and all. Additionally not one other wise uncreated being would not suffer pain and torture in this life if God did not conceive of ways that these beings would suffer pain and torture. Indeed, each and every evil deed, all according to mainstreamism, can be traced back to the conception of God. the evil doer didn't conceive of the evil deeds...God did not long before. Since God is the originator of every evil deed, according to mainstreamism's belief system if taken to its logical conclusion, then God is the very source of the bad stuff.

Of course for LDS God is not the source of evil. He did not create evil deeds, thus evil deeds were conceived of long before He knew they would occur. Its that simple.

love,
stem

[Billyray]

Afterall before Lucifer was created God thought of the deeds that would make Lucifer who he is long before God created him out of nothing.

Do you believe that your God did not know what actions Lucifer would take prior to him being born by your mother in heaven?

If you believe that your God did know in advance about Lucifer's actions why did your God allow him to be spiritually born?

[stemelbow]

Do you believe that your God did not know what actions Lucifer would take prior to him being born by your mother in heaven?

Born by my mother in heaven? not really. I do believe God knew all actions Lucifer would do prior to forming his spirit from the intelligences that made him up. Lucifer already existed...just in a different form.


If you believe that your God did know in advance about Lucifer's actions why did your God allow him to be spiritually born?

He wasn't spiritually born. He was formed into spirit form. to be spiritually born is essentially to be baptized with pure intent. God allowed him to be formed into spirit form but God was not the originator of the evil deeds Lucifer would do. That's the difference. To answer your question, God allowed all intelligences formed into spirits a chance to further their existence.

So how's about taken a stab at addressing my argument, posed against your religious beliefs?

love,
stem

[Sentinus]

Let us sum up the evangelical religion then. Based on the only evan who answered the above questions the answer for evans is all correct, although one did suggest without any reasoning that one or two at least were wrong. I don't know which ones or how they were wrong. Either way BH answered them all correct. So that means...

To the mainstreamer...

God created all creatures out of nothing, and all actions, mostly evil but some good, were originally conceived of in the mind of God. Afterall before Lucifer was created God thought of the deeds that would make Lucifer who he is long before God created him out of nothing. Accordingly, even lucifer would not have done an evil deed if God did not first conceive of the evil deeds he was going to do. He wouldn't have rebelled if God did not conceive of his rebellion, how it would come about, what inside him which caused his rebellion, and all. Additionally not one other wise uncreated being would not suffer pain and torture in this life if God did not conceive of ways that these beings would suffer pain and torture. Indeed, each and every evil deed, all according to mainstreamism, can be traced back to the conception of God. the evil doer didn't conceive of the evil deeds...God did not long before. Since God is the originator of every evil deed, according to mainstreamism's belief system if taken to its logical conclusion, then God is the very source of the bad stuff.

Of course for LDS God is not the source of evil. He did not create evil deeds, thus evil deeds were conceived of long before He knew they would occur. Its that simple.

love,
stem


Since God is the originator of every evil deed, according to mainstreamism's belief system if taken to its logical conclusion, then God is the very source of the bad stuff.

Good thing God isn't limited by mans simplistic logic.


Of course for LDS God is not the source of evil. He did not create evil deeds, thus evil deeds were conceived of long before He knew they would occur. Its that simple.


If evil deeds were conceived before God knew they would occur, who then conceived of them?

Who then created this original conceiver of evil deeds who somehow existed outside of Gods knowledge for a time?

Who then is responsible for the creation of that which you discern is evil?

And for that matter how all knowing and all powerful is a God that didn't know something would occur?

It seems it really isn't that simple at all. ;)

Kindest regards,
Sentinus

[John T]

Let us sum up the evangelical religion then. Based on the only evan who answered the above questions the answer for evans is all correct, although one did suggest without any reasoning that one or two at least were wrong. I don't know which ones or how they were wrong. Either way BH answered them all correct (sic). So that means...

stem

The point is that you just simply LIKE the answers we give, so you dismiss them out of hand. You create cartoonish meanings of things and vilify the cartoons. That is called straw man argumentation.

Then you erroneously pontificate and chortle at your Pyrrhic victory, saying that you alone are correct. So continue in your deceitful ways stem, and you will continue to make statements that seem to come from the ugly end of a horse instead of from a person of intelligence.

it is obvious to me that you do not want to learn about what we say, because they can not fit into the LDS "shoebox" for theology. then you guys have the audacity to try this garbage on us, saying, "We too are Christians."

BALDERDASH!

[stemelbow]

Good thing God isn't limited by mans simplistic logic.

If evil deeds were conceived before God knew they would occur, who then conceived of them?

No one. They just were.


Who then created this original conceiver of evil deeds who somehow existed outside of Gods knowledge for a time?

All already existed. According to LDS belief there was no time, or no no time however you wish to extend your logic, before all things, beside God, existed. You see there were many eternal things and beings that existed into eternity past along with God.


Who then is responsible for the creation of that which you discern is evil?

no one.


And for that matter how all knowing and all powerful is a God that didn't know something would occur?

huh? That doesn't make sense.


It seems it really isn't that simple at all. ;)

It is that simple.

love,
stem

[stemelbow]

The point is that you just simply LIKE the answers we give, so you dismiss them out of hand.

I believe you meant to suggest I simply don't like your answers. That's not it. I like them all. Your answers weren't very helpful...You didn't say where I went wrong you only vaguely said I must be wrong about something. BrianH, disagreed with you by saying the answer to all the questions is correct. I took his answer seriously while yours didn't specify anything for me. I had to go with his.


You create cartoonish meanings of things and vilify the cartoons. That is called straw man argumentation.

This is a great example of what I'm saying. How did I create any straw man, specifically? It seems so far all you have is vague complaints.


Then you erroneously pontificate and chortle at your Pyrrhic victory, saying that you alone are correct. So continue in your deceitful ways stem, and you will continue to make statements that seem to come from the ugly end of a horse instead of from a person of intelligence.

it is obvious to me that you do not want to learn about what we say, because they can not fit into the LDS "shoebox" for theology. then you guys have the audacity to try this garbage on us, saying, "We too are Christians."

BALDERDASH!




An on-topic reply would be fitting. But since you went off about me, and "you guys", I'll consider your response a very good support for my point. Thanks.

love,
stem

[Sentinus]

No one. They just were.



All already existed. According to LDS belief there was no time, or no no time however you wish to extend your logic, before all things, beside God, existed. You see there were many eternal things and beings that existed into eternity past along with God.



no one.



huh? That doesn't make sense.



It is that simple.

love,
stem


No one. They just were.

So evil just is and has no origination at all in your understanding of LDS theology?


All already existed. According to LDS belief there was no time, or no no time however you wish to extend your logic, before all things, beside God, existed. You see there were many eternal things and beings that existed into eternity past along with God.

So in your understanding of LDS theology things such as "evil" co existed with an eternal God eternally? And additionally other "beings" eternally existed as well?


no one.

Got it. God did not create everything only some things.


huh? That doesn't make sense.

You said: evil deeds were conceived of long before He knew they would occur.

And I asked: how all knowing and all powerful is a God that didn't know something would occur?

It makes sense to me.


It is that simple.

It may seem simple to you, but the more you answer the more complicated this all becomes.

For starters answer me this-

In your opinion did God create the intelligence that was Lucifer? Or did this intelligence simply always exist outside and individual from God or the "other beings" you mentioned that coexisted along with eternal "things" such as evil?

Kind regards,
Sentinus

[stemelbow]

So evil just is and has no origination at all in your understanding of LDS theology?

So in your understanding of LDS theology things such as "evil" co existed with an eternal God eternally? And additionally other "beings" eternally existed as well?

Yes, other beings eternally existed with God, and evil was not started somewhere along the way...it just is.


Got it. God did not create everything only some things.

Indeed He only created that which he created...and he did not create ex nihilo.


You said: evil deeds were conceived of long before He knew they would occur.

And I asked: how all knowing and all powerful is a God that didn't know something would occur?

It makes sense to me.

If evil deeds existed before He designed this creation, then it is not logical to ***ume He didn't know evil would occur...based on that info alone.


It may seem simple to you, but the more you answer the more complicated this all becomes.

For starters answer me this-

In your opinion did God create the intelligence that was Lucifer? Or did this intelligence simply always exist outside and individual from God or the "other beings" you mentioned that coexisted along with eternal "things" such as evil?

Fair enough, LDS theology is complicated in many respects.

You ask: "In your opinion did God create the intelligence that was Lucifer?"

Intelligence is eternal--was never created. i think that answers your second question too.


Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.
All truth is independent in that sphere in which God has placed it, to act for itself, as all intelligence also; otherwise there is no existence.
D&C93:29-30

love,
stem

[Sentinus]

Yes, other beings eternally existed with God, and evil was not started somewhere along the way...it just is.



Indeed He only created that which he created...and he did not create ex nihilo.



If evil deeds existed before He designed this creation, then it is not logical to ***ume He didn't know evil would occur...based on that info alone.



Fair enough, LDS theology is complicated in many respects.

You ask: "In your opinion did God create the intelligence that was Lucifer?"

Intelligence is eternal--was never created. i think that answers your second question too.


D&C93:29-30

love,
stem


You ask: "In your opinion did God create the intelligence that was Lucifer?"

Intelligence is eternal--was never created. i think that answers your second question too.

So it is not LDS teaching that God created Lucifer?

Kind regards,
Sentinus

[stemelbow]

True that, to a certain extent. God formed Lucifer from eternally existing intelligences. We only know intelligences are eternal, and are a fine type of matter.

I say "to a certain extent" because we (LDS) often use create in a way that does not ***ume creation ex nihilo, which tends these days, when referring to God creating, to be the ***umption of the majority view. So you'll hear LDS say God created Lucifer, but by create we do not intend to suggest creation ex nihilo.

love,
stem

[Sentinus]

True that, to a certain extent. God formed Lucifer from eternally existing intelligences. We only know intelligences are eternal, and are a fine type of matter.

I say "to a certain extent" because we (LDS) often use create in a way that does not ***ume creation ex nihilo, which tends these days, when referring to God creating, to be the ***umption of the majority view. So you'll hear LDS say God created Lucifer, but by create we do not intend to suggest creation ex nihilo.

love,
stem

So it is accurate to say that God according to LDS theology organized existing intelligences into what many of us call Lucifer. Thus creating Lucifer.

Kind regards,
Sentinus

[stemelbow]

Its fair to say that without any implication that this organizing was a piecing together by God to form certain characteristics. We do not have the info to know if intelligences differ among individual spirits or not.

love,
stem

[Bat-Man]

So it is accurate to say that God according to LDS theology organized existing intelligences into what many of us call Lucifer. Thus creating Lucifer.

Kind regards,
Sentinus
The answer to that question varies depending on who you ask, Sentinus.

I'd like to develop the QUESTION a little more to clarify what you are asking.

Proposition: God organized existing intelligences into what many of us call Lucifer

Let's expound on what you may mean by "existing intelligences"

Question: Is it possible that God, himself, was the "existing intelligence" from which Lucifer was created ?

My Answer: I think so.

The question then becomes: How ?

Here is some more of what I think:

Life doesn't begin at conception, because life doesn't begin. Life continues as each kind of being reproduces however that kind of being reproduces, and we (all men and women on this Earth) are the children of God... including Lucifer, who chose to become wicked after God created him as good.

[alanmolstad]

I got some questions

Before creating (ex nihilo) anything God was all there was, correct?

Before God created (ex nihilo) He knew, had to know, that evil things would be practiced, correct?

God being all powerful and able to create anything in any form and with any behavior he wanted, chose to create creatures (like satan) that would do evil things. He certainly didn't have to create Satan, right?

Also before creating (ex nihilo) God knew all the evil acts that would be done, right?

If so, before any being was created, before any evil action could be done, evil ideas originated in the "mind" of God, right?

***uming all the above is in line with your beliefs lets move on...

God created beings and knew each and every action each being would do throughout eternity, right?

He knew, for instance, that little Russ would tell his mom a lie when he was little, right?

But God, being all-powerful, didn't have to create any beings who would do anything evil right?

Without creating there would be no evil practiced there would only be God, right?

A creature would not do evil things if God first did not create that being out of nothing knowing full well all actions that being would do, right?

God knew which beings would be saved eternally and which beings would be ****ed for eternity before creating any of them, right?

God did not have to create any beings who would be ****ed for eternity, right?

There would be absolutely no suffering, of the worst kind, if God did not create, right?

Let us go to this point and see what answers we get.

love,
stem

Without freedom, there is no love....

True love is a willing and free love.

The answer to all evil is the cross.

[alanmolstad]

I got some questions

Before creating (ex nihilo) anything God was all there was, correct?

Before God created (ex nihilo) He knew, had to know, that evil things would be practiced, correct?

God being all powerful and able to create anything in any form and with any behavior he wanted, chose to create creatures (like satan) that would do evil things. He certainly didn't have to create Satan, right?

Also before creating (ex nihilo) God knew all the evil acts that would be done, right?

If so, before any being was created, before any evil action could be done, evil ideas originated in the "mind" of God, right?

***uming all the above is in line with your beliefs lets move on...

God created beings and knew each and every action each being would do throughout eternity, right?

He knew, for instance, that little Russ would tell his mom a lie when he was little, right?

But God, being all-powerful, didn't have to create any beings who would do anything evil right?

Without creating there would be no evil practiced there would only be God, right?

A creature would not do evil things if God first did not create that being out of nothing knowing full well all actions that being would do, right?

God knew which beings would be saved eternally and which beings would be ****ed for eternity before creating any of them, right?

God did not have to create any beings who would be ****ed for eternity, right?

There would be absolutely no suffering, of the worst kind, if God did not create, right?

Let us go to this point and see what answers we get.

love,
stem
In the book of *** the bible deals with this issue...

The answer is that we are to trust God regardless of what we see in this suffering age.

[alanmolstad]

I got some questions

Before creating (ex nihilo) anything God was all there was, correct?

Before God created (ex nihilo) He knew, had to know, that evil things would be practiced, correct?

God being all powerful and able to create anything in any form and with any behavior he wanted, chose to create creatures (like satan) that would do evil things. He certainly didn't have to create Satan, right?

Also before creating (ex nihilo) God knew all the evil acts that would be done, right?

If so, before any being was created, before any evil action could be done, evil ideas originated in the "mind" of God, right?

***uming all the above is in line with your beliefs lets move on...

God created beings and knew each and every action each being would do throughout eternity, right?

He knew, for instance, that little Russ would tell his mom a lie when he was little, right?

But God, being all-powerful, didn't have to create any beings who would do anything evil right?

Without creating there would be no evil practiced there would only be God, right?

A creature would not do evil things if God first did not create that being out of nothing knowing full well all actions that being would do, right?

God knew which beings would be saved eternally and which beings would be ****ed for eternity before creating any of them, right?

God did not have to create any beings who would be ****ed for eternity, right?

There would be absolutely no suffering, of the worst kind, if God did not create, right?

Let us go to this point and see what answers we get.

love,
stem

God was not afraid of evil that would come ...he knew it was not a challenge to him and his plans.

Had God decided, "Oh I better not " then we would always know that "God was afraid"......


Its like the moment God entered into the world ,,,he could have taken his first breath, seen into the future, seen his death on the cross and the scattering of his followers, and decided, "Oh I better not" and went back to heaven.

But the Lord was not afraid of the evil that was about to happen, he knew the evil would not challenge his plans

[dberrie2000]

So it is not LDS teaching that God created Lucifer?

Hi Sentinus:

The LDS believe this is the doctrine of the progression of mankind:

1) They were "intelligences" to start with--which are eternal.

2) Spirits were Fathered by God the Father--which the intelligence inhabits.

3) These spirits then inhabit mortal bodies procreated by our earthly mothers and fathers.

4) The spirits then leave the mortal body upon death--and, upon being resurrected-- inhabit a resurrected body.