was lucifer created evil? [Archive] - Page 2 - Walter Martin Ministries Forum

Father_JD

01-12-2010, 06:15 PM

Your conclusion ("The Mormo-god can NOT be omniscient.") suffers from logical fallacies, JD. Its in explaining logic to you that perhaps may end up being the best benefit to you in all of this.

He (God) can certainly be omniscient (which means to know all things since its apparent you keep misusing the word) while Lucifer's thoughts of rebellion were merely mimicks of previous rebellions. Indeed, God could be well aware of the previous rebellions and thoughts of those rebellions.

Keep trying to think...you'll get there someday.

love,
stem

LOL. "God COULD BE WELL AWARE of the previous rebellions and thoughts", etc????

You have just now shown that for you, God's OMNISCIENCE is merely a THEORY, couching your language in "could ofs".

Thanks again for demonstrating Mormon CONFUSION. :p

stemelbow

01-12-2010, 06:29 PM

You have just now shown that for you, God's OMNISCIENCE is merely a THEORY,

Slow quick to conclude and so slow to understand, JD. What is a theory, JD? Just curious if ya realize what you're saying here.

love,
stem

Father_JD

01-12-2010, 06:41 PM

Slow quick to conclude and so slow to understand, JD. What is a theory, JD? Just curious if ya realize what you're saying here.

love,
stem

You stated the Mormo-god "COULD BE AWARE". Language has MEANING, stem. You posed a HYPOTHETICAL which is THEORETICAL.

Sheesh. :rolleyes:

stemelbow

01-13-2010, 10:24 AM

The possibility that He could be aware proves your attempt to bring LDS beliefs down the drain with your own is foolishness. Your beliefs alone are headed down the drain, JD.

I only used "could be aware" to disprove via logic your ill-conceived attempt to bring LDS belief down with your own. I know you don't get that, but it makes sense when ya think about it.

love,
stem

Father_JD

01-13-2010, 08:20 PM

stemelbow

01-14-2010, 05:25 AM

hah...JD. you're attempt to situate yourself into my brain as if you know exactly what I'm thinking in some silly hope to knock down a straw man is itself the adorable show expected of JD, but incidentally is explained by the mixed up belief system you hold. Talk about accepting what you're told to believe, JD.

So far from this thread it seems your position can be summarized as:

Well, God created all things good so there's no way God, who designed Satan by scratch who knew everything satan would do before He designed him from scratch, intended satan to be evil. God's intention was that Satan, though designed from nothing by God, was going to be good, but satan whose choices God knew about before designing him out of nothing, and in fact knew when and how those choices, which would never have been made if God did not design satan as He did, would be made, frustrated God's anticipations by choosing to be bad, even though God knew that satan would be bad, knowing what it was going to take for satan to be bad. Fewf! what a convoluted mess you are forced to regurgitate in some vein hope that your belief in God is not seen, even if logical dictates otherwise, as evil.

as anyone would be able to see, JD, your desperate attempts to bring down my beliefs with your own is about the best option you have when it comes to defending the silliness that is your beliefs. Its obvious your silly beliefs have caused you to think such desperation and illogic is somehow the valid method of argumentation. Wow...too bad your stuck with this having to wait till someone tells you to think on you'r own.

love,
stem

Father_JD

01-14-2010, 07:05 PM

stemelbow

01-18-2010, 05:13 PM

What makes you think Lucifer "frustrated God's anticipations, etc."??

Your problem, to which you're still very much BLIND, is that for you to dis***ociate yourself from historic, Biblical teaching is that you can only do one of two things (although you've done both here)

1. Accept the idea that the Miormo-god is really "omnisicient", therefore KNEW Satan's future rebellion, etc. based SOLELY upon his FOREKNOWLEDGE which renders the argument of ex nihilo creation moot...making your god ALSO the "originator of his evil designs" according to YOU...OR

Oh JD. The problem you are having is attempting to link the LDS concept of God to evil just as your own does. But sadly, every attempt you make to do so, you either do not understand the LDS position, or my argument for that matter, nor account for your beliefs requiring upon God to be the very source of all evil since He created all things from nothing. You think somehow your silly attempt to drag LDS belief down with your own is going to dig yourself out of the pit you find yourself in. Not only that, but your attempt at incriminating the LDS concept of God is utterly illogical.

2. Deny the Mormo-god's omniscience (which you've actually done), and that he "knew" of Lucifer's future rebellion which is merely based upon his "past experiences" with him.

So far, you've affirmed both.

I haven't affirmed both...you simply just haven't understood.

love,
stem

Father_JD

01-19-2010, 05:58 PM

IF the Mormo-god could foresee Lucifer's FUTURE rebellions, THEN those future rebellions HAD to have ORIGINATED in the Mormo-god's mind, according to your logic.

There's NO escape from flaky Mormon "theology" which has NO basis in the Bible.

stemelbow

01-20-2010, 10:56 AM

IF the Mormo-god could foresee Lucifer's FUTURE rebellions, THEN those future rebellions HAD to have ORIGINATED in the Mormo-god's mind, according to your logic.

Obviously you haven't understood my logic, JD, since such is not true. If He could foresee that Lucifer was going to rebel just as others had previously, then the conception of lucifer's rebellion cannot be found in God's conception. Evil already was, JD. Sadly for you, in your effort to bring down LDS belief with your own, you are left in the pit of God being evil, since you affirm mainstream principals.

There's NO escape from flaky Mormon "theology" which has NO basis in the Bible.

Your bald ***ertions aren't doing you any favors, even if you are just using them to deflect and hide your evil belief system.

love,
stem

Father_JD

01-21-2010, 06:55 PM

LOL. You're blind to as how "adorably bald" your ***ertions are, stemster.

You're still not "getting it". If the Mormo-deity FORESAW future rebellion of Lucifer, THEN that rebellion HAD to have ORIGINATED in his mind...according to your own faulty logic.

The truth?

The Mormo-deity is neither omniscient nor omnipotent, 'cause he's an IDOL, fashioned from the fetid imagination of a false prophet named, "Joseph Smith".

stemelbow

01-21-2010, 08:17 PM

You're still not "getting it". If the Mormo-deity FORESAW future rebellion of Lucifer, THEN that rebellion HAD to have ORIGINATED in his mind...according to your own faulty logic.

This has been some fun back and forth, but your illogic remains clear. Here's the logic as you see it, it seems:

1. God foresaw Lucifer's rebellion.
2. Lucifer rebelled.
3. Therefore Lucifer's rebellion and evil for that matter originated in God's conception.

Your ***umption is that Lucifer's rebellion was not already known and practiced by other's, before Lucifer's spirit was formed. obviously your steps are illogical.

Again your attempt to bring down LDS belief with your own has been disproven. Thanks.

love,
stem

Father_JD

01-22-2010, 05:22 PM

No, the "illogic" is all yours, stem...trying to DEFEND the Mormo-deity FORESEEING FUTURE REBELLIONS OF SATAN and their not being "originated" in his mind, but yet applying this to the BIBLICAL GOD who really IS omnisicient.

nrajeff

01-22-2010, 06:59 PM

But at the end of day, your belief that God is the sole and total AUTHOR of EVERYTHING remains in the public record, FJD.

MacG

01-23-2010, 12:17 AM

Let's consider this question in light of the mainstream concept of creation. Was Lucifer created by God, out of nothing, to do good or evil? Was Lucifer immediately after creation good? If so when, specifically, did he become evil?

Looking forward to an enlightening discussion on the topic.

love,
stem

2 Nephi 2:17 And I, Lehi, according to the things which I have read, must needs suppose that an angel of God, according to that which is written, had fallen from heaven; wherefore, he became a devil, having sought that which was evil before God.
18 And because he had fallen from heaven, and had become miserable forever, he sought also the misery of all mankind. Wherefore, he said unto Eve, yea, even that old serpent, who is the devil, who is the father of all lies, wherefore he said: Partake of the forbidden fruit, and ye shall not die, but ye shall be as God, knowing good and evil."

It seems he was created good and became evil.

MacG

stemelbow

01-23-2010, 08:13 AM

No way, Jeff. God conjured up everything before creating in His own mind, but that does not mean He conjured up Satan's evil designs...Satan did that, but God knew of satan's evil designs before satan was ever created...but God wouldn't cause evil as JD's feelings dictate therefore JD concludes God didn't conceive of evil deeds before anything was created, but that puts JD in the position of having to accept that God didn't know what His otherwise uncreated creatures would do. Ah never mind all of that for JD...He just wants to whine about LDS belief and attempt to drag LDS down with Him, in this evil conception of what is God.

All very sad.

love,
stem

stemelbow

01-23-2010, 08:14 AM

Such definitely works for LDS belief, MacG. But sadly the philosophy behind mainstream's dogmatic belief forces upon God to be the source of all evil, if taken to its logical conclusion.

love,
stem

Father_JD

01-24-2010, 02:46 PM

Such definitely works for LDS belief, MacG. But sadly the philosophy behind mainstream's dogmatic belief forces upon God to be the source of all evil, if taken to its logical conclusion.

love,
stem

Well, then, stem, the same logic MUST apply to the Mormon deity.

Father_JD

01-24-2010, 02:48 PM

But at the end of day, your belief that God is the sole and total AUTHOR of EVERYTHING remains in the public record, FJD.

God is NOT the author of evil, jeff...so I don't know how you come up with that one!1

Father_JD

01-24-2010, 02:49 PM

...that does not mean He conjured up Satan's evil designs...Satan did that, but God knew of satan's evil designs before satan was ever created

And that's EXACTLY what I've been telling you about the BIBLICAL God, stem.

MacG

01-24-2010, 04:18 PM

Such definitely works for LDS belief, MacG. But sadly the philosophy behind mainstream's dogmatic belief forces upon God to be the source of all evil, if taken to its logical conclusion.

love,
stem

Stem, then by that reasoning every Mormon that has kids knowing that they will eventually engage in evil creates them to do evil.

MacG

stemelbow

02-07-2010, 08:35 AM

Stem, then by that reasoning every Mormon that has kids knowing that they will eventually engage in evil creates them to do evil.

MacG

That's no following my logic at all, MacG. No LDS person who has a kid is creating the kid ex nihilo knowing each and every act that kid would do, how they would do it, and under what conditions they would do it. In other words, your attempt at bringing my beliefs down with your own is not following logic and in no way argues against the sad state your belief system is in, due to this one point alone.

love,
stem

stemelbow

02-07-2010, 08:38 AM

And that's EXACTLY what I've been telling you about the BIBLICAL God, stem.

I know...that's why I repeated your illogical, irrational, contradicting conclusion for Jeff. So he knows just how foolish your statements must be in order your beliefs don't appear so foolish.

love,
stem

stemelbow

02-07-2010, 08:40 AM

Of course, JD, close your eyes, stop your ears and stick your head in the sand, all at the same time, while screaming out the refrain, 'I don't get why you guys are logically explaining the foolishness of my beliefs...they aren't foolish, I'm saying they aren't so they aren't'.

love,
stem

nrajeff

02-07-2010, 08:56 AM

That's no following my logic at all, MacG. No LDS person who has a kid is creating the kid ex nihilo knowing each and every act that kid would do, how they would do it, and under what conditions they would do it. In other words, your attempt at bringing my beliefs down with your own is not following logic and in no way argues against the sad state your belief system is in, due to this one point alone.

-----Yes. LDS don't actually CREATE the spirits of their children, so we don't have the power to create them as people who don't sin. The God of Evangelicalism is different in that He DOES have that power but chooses not to use it. Even if we COULD foresee every sin our kids are gonna make before they make it--which we can't do--we'd STILL not have the power to CREATE them differently. What really happens down here is that parents give birth to the bodies of their children, and once the kids' spirits enter those bodies, the parents try to teach them right from wrong and try to encourage them to do what's right.

James Banta

02-07-2010, 01:03 PM

-----Yes. LDS don't actually CREATE the spirits of their children, so we don't have the power to create them as people who don't sin. The God of Evangelicalism is different in that He DOES have that power but chooses not to use it. Even if we COULD foresee every sin our kids are gonna make before they make it--which we can't do--we'd STILL not have the power to CREATE them differently. What really happens down here is that parents give birth to the bodies of their children, and once the kids' spirits enter those bodies, the parents try to teach them right from wrong and try to encourage them to do what's right.

All the time knowing that would do evil in their lives so all parents are guilty of the sins of their children!.. IHS jim

MacG

02-08-2010, 01:23 AM

stemelbow

02-08-2010, 08:36 AM

All the time knowing that would do evil in their lives so all parents are guilty of the sins of their children!.. IHS jim

Interesting belief system you add there, Jim. You actually think parents are the guilty party of their own children's sins, or that's what you state here. Ya gonna change your position now? No LDS here, from what I've seen, consider parents guilty of their children's sins...that's just you.

love,
stem

stemelbow

02-08-2010, 08:38 AM

So your God is then the cause.

To bring it back to the topic of discussion, it has already been demonstrated that mainstream beliefs require God to be the source of evil. to LDS such is not the case since to LDS God did not create ex nihilo, and therefore did not conjur up all evil deeds that would be done in His own mind. Such despicable concepts are the logical conclusions of mainstreamism.

love,
stem

Father_JD

02-08-2010, 02:21 PM

Father_JD

02-08-2010, 02:23 PM

stemelbow

02-08-2010, 06:50 PM

No, "mainstream beliefs" which are FOUND ON THE BIBLE ALONE, do NOT require "god to be the source of evil".

You've been told this zillions of times and you haven't refuted that although you're convinced in your own mind that you have.

That's just it, JD. Mainstream beliefs aren't founded on the bible alone. Ex nihilo afterall is a standard mainstream belief but is not found in the Bible...if it was then the Bible would be right there along with mainstreamism as forcing upon God to be the source of all that is evil.

love,
stem

stemelbow

02-08-2010, 06:53 PM

James Banta

02-08-2010, 07:47 PM

Sure you are the one doing such, JD. You say God is good, but you also say God is the very source of everything, via his supposed creation ex nihilo. Thus, confirming the notion that all thoughts and deeds accomplished by his creation were originally conceived of in God's mind. Yet, you must adhered to your illogical thought that God is good, otherwise the logical conclusion of your belief system (God being evil) would be conceded.

love,
stem

You still believe as the atheist do that knowing about sin is akin to committing that sin.. You had to know that your children were gong to lie and yet you fathered children..You are guilty of their lies.. This makes your creed errored because your children are not guilty of their sin you are.. Show me in the Law (ANY LAW) that knowing that a crime will be committed makes that person guilty of the crime.. I have asked that of you before and you have ignored the request.. I understand you doing do it has no logical response..

Ok, God knew that Lucifer would sin and become Satan, He knew Adam would sin and bring death into the world. He also knew that He would defeat sin and bring life to all who would put their trust in Him.. And in all this He remained pure and never commanded sin to be committed. UNLESS you are LDS then you MUST believe that God gives contradictory commandments. He commands that no one commits murder unless He says to murder.

He commanded Adam not take the fruit He had forbidden but doesn't provide a way for Adam to reproduce, again being true to His commandment, until Adam did so, forcing sin onto all men.. And you have the right to tell us that God created evil.. All the Christian God did was to have knowledge of how His creation would behave. The mormon God forces sin onto man. God belittles Lucifer's plan so that he can no longer stay in God's presence.. The truth of the mormon God and how he dealt with sin and how the Christian God deals with sin are opposite in the extreme.. God is 100% just, the god of mormonism is 100% EVIL, FORCING SIN ON ALL FLESH.. IHS jim

stemelbow

02-09-2010, 09:20 AM

You still believe as the atheist do that knowing about sin is akin to committing that sin.. You had to know that your children were gong to lie and yet you fathered children..You are guilty of their lies..

Again, james, you are misunderstanding my argument--you aren't getting it. I never said that merely knowing about sin is akin to committing it. You ahve failed to grasp what I'm saying.

This makes your creed errored because your children are not guilty of their sin you are.. Show me in the Law (ANY LAW) that knowing that a crime will be committed makes that person guilty of the crime.. I have asked that of you before and you have ignored the request.. I understand you doing do it has no logical response..

Why would I show you something that is irrelevant? You have misunderstood my argument completely and require I show you something that is nonsensical. What's the point, Jim?

Ok, God knew that Lucifer would sin and become Satan, He knew Adam would sin and bring death into the world. He also knew that He would defeat sin and bring life to all who would put their trust in Him.. And in all this He remained pure and never commanded sin to be committed. UNLESS you are LDS then you MUST believe that God gives contradictory commandments. He commands that no one commits murder unless He says to murder.

In your estimation did God conceive (know of) of Lucifer's evil deeds before Lucifer was created ex nihilo?

love,
stem

James Banta

02-09-2010, 10:50 AM

[stemelbow;48390]Again, james, you are misunderstanding my argument--you aren't getting it. I never said that merely knowing about sin is akin to committing it. You ahve failed to grasp what I'm saying.

Why would I show you something that is irrelevant? You have misunderstood my argument completely and require I show you something that is nonsensical. What's the point, Jim?

Here you are denying that God is responsible for sin that has sprouted within His creation..

In your estimation did God conceive (know of) of Lucifer's evil deeds before Lucifer was created ex nihilo?

Here I see you telling me that God IS responsible for sin in His creation.. Because God does know all things from the distant eternity past to the far reaching eternity yet to come.. So I am still seeing that you agree with the God haters that God is evil because He knew about and allowed evil to grow within his creation.. That is fine you can march in lock step with them on issues that you feel strongly about.. Just understand that the mormon god did more than know about sin.. He forced sin onto man.. He gave conflicting commandments. Commanding man to reproduce yet also commanding that man can not take the fruit that will allow him to keep that commandment. AND commanding through Moses that man should not murder but commanding Nephi to raise a sword to Laban who was incapable of defending himself. A man that had not be judge by the elders to be worthy of death. No Nephi took the man own sword and murdered him in the street.. This is the consistency of the mormon God yet you can't see these things. No instead you judge the Christian God for His all knowing nature.. Saying at He knew what these being would do before He created them so He made a mistake in their creation.. He is therefore responsible for the evil they committed..

God has His reason for the creation of all things and it isn't about that creation. It's about Him.. He will be glorified in His judgments, He will be glorified in evils men's rejection of His love.. He didn't make us for our own benefit He made everything for His glory (Acts 11:18). God is not glorified by forcing or even committing acts of evil.. You even have a p***age of mormon scripture that agrees with this point:

Moses 1:39
For behold, this is my work and my glory—to bring to p*** the immortality and eternal life of man.
I know you disagree with me that God is eternal.. You have accepted a god invented by a man. A god that he could understand and ascribe to be like.. I happened to see the Bible saying that only God ever was and will ever be God but that He does have wonders in mind for us that our minds have yet to even conceive..
1 Cor 2:9

But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
If you can think of anythings that is wonderful God has something better in mind than that.. And He will give it to his children for His glory.. This is not a God that is responsible for sin and defiantly not a God that requires man to commit sin.. IHS jim

James Banta

02-09-2010, 10:59 AM

Interesting belief system you add there, Jim. You actually think parents are the guilty party of their own children's sins, or that's what you state here. Ya gonna change your position now? No LDS here, from what I've seen, consider parents guilty of their children's sins...that's just you.

love,
stem

I showed you how rediclous it is to blame God for any sin ever committed by His creation by showing you how rediclous it would be to blame parents for the sins of their chldren.. Not right is it? If no mormon could do that then NO mormon should say that God is responsible for the evil actions of His creation.. IHS jim

nrajeff

02-09-2010, 12:16 PM

So your God is then the cause.
---Are you admitting that your reasoning was deficient when you said:

"..by that reasoning every Mormon that has kids knowing that they will eventually engage in evil creates them to do evil" ??

stemelbow

02-10-2010, 10:00 AM

I showed you how rediclous it is to blame God for any sin ever committed by His creation by showing you how rediclous it would be to blame parents for the sins of their chldren.. Not right is it? If no mormon could do that then NO mormon should say that God is responsible for the evil actions of His creation.. IHS jim

Such is merely deflection, Jim. My argument is not God Himself is responsible for evil...only that your belief system if taken to its logical conclusion forces upon God to be the source of evil. That you continually misunderstand and ***ume I'm saying that God is responsible all because He knew evil would be is not addressing my point.

love,
stem

Father_JD

02-10-2010, 03:41 PM

That's just it, JD. Mainstream beliefs aren't founded on the bible alone. Ex nihilo afterall is a standard mainstream belief but is not found in the Bible...if it was then the Bible would be right there along with mainstreamism as forcing upon God to be the source of all that is evil.

love,
stem

But "ex nihilo" IS BIBLICAL, stem. God SPOKE, and the creation came to BE.
"Eternal matter" is NOT BIBLICAL, stem. :rolleyes:

MacG

02-11-2010, 01:46 AM

---Are you admitting that your reasoning was deficient when you said:

"..by that reasoning every Mormon that has kids knowing that they will eventually engage in evil creates them to do evil" ??

Just tryin' to nail some Jello to a tree Jeff. It came about by the =if,then,else pattern. I said is it "this" you said "no, but this" I said "then this" and you did not answer that and called into question my reasoning which then leads me to surmise that the LDS God is the source of evil. Thanks for clearing that up. ;)

Grace and Peace,

MacG

nrajeff

02-11-2010, 07:54 PM

Just tryin' to nail some Jello to a tree Jeff.
----It must be Jello that you made.

It came about by the =if,then,else pattern. I said is it "this" you said "no, but this" I said "then this" and you did not answer that and called into question my reasoning which then leads me to surmise that the LDS God is the source of evil.
---Then you are still confused. It's not LDS theology that, taken to its conclusion, makes God the author of evil. It's Trinitarianism + Calvinism, with their sovereignty-absolutism and ex nihilo-ism, that do so. Maybe you didn't read my Parable of the Hasbro Evil Robot Kit Designer/Programmer/Builder.

Father_JD

02-12-2010, 03:41 PM

Your position makes the Mormon deity some poor schmuck who's NEITHER SOVEREIGN NOR OMNIPOTENT.

You think your position "solves" these weighty philosophical matters, but you only end up with a deity who doesn't resemble the God of the Bible, jeff.

nrajeff

02-15-2010, 07:31 AM

Your position makes the Mormon deity some poor schmuck who's NEITHER SOVEREIGN NOR OMNIPOTENT.
---My position? I was just questioning the logic of YOUR position. I was just pointing out the holes in your position. Whatever my position is, is irrelevant, since it won't change the problems in YOURS.

You think your position "solves" these weighty philosophical matters, but you only end up with a deity who doesn't resemble the God of the Bible, jeff
---If YOUR deity resembled the God of the Bible, then it would mean that the God of the Bible had all those problems that your position has. :)

I happen to believe that the God of the Bible IS able to have a son.

stemelbow

02-15-2010, 08:56 AM

Actually, ex nihilo is merely read into the text by mainstreamers, like you. God spoke and things were formed, sure, but that does not equate to ex nihilo all on its own.

love,
stem

Father_JD

02-17-2010, 01:01 PM

Actually, ex nihilo is merely read into the text by mainstreamers, like you. God spoke and things were formed, sure, but that does not equate to ex nihilo all on its own.

love,
stem

Scripture declares that God created ALL THINGS, which includes "matter". To posit "eternal matter" is an absurdity in light of that. This position posits matter to be EQUAL WITH GOD HIMSELF REGARDING HIS ETERNALITY.

You seem not to have a clue just how illogical Mormon reasoning is! :eek:

Father_JD

02-17-2010, 01:03 PM

You made no holes although you're certain you did, jeff.

What plagues the Mormon mind is the attempt to reconcile Jesus' "sonship" in light of scripture's clear teaching that He has ALWAYS EXISTED WITH THE FATHER.

We created beings do NOT...according to the Bible and not poppy**** Mormon "revelation".

nrajeff

02-17-2010, 01:33 PM

You made no holes although you're certain you did, jeff.
---I don't recall seeing a real refutation of the holes in your theology that I exposed via my Parable of the Hasbro Evil Robot Designer/Builder/Activator parable. Should I make yet another thread on it, and give you one more chance to refute it?

What plagues the Mormon mind is the attempt to reconcile Jesus' "sonship" in light of scripture's clear teaching that He has ALWAYS EXISTED WITH THE FATHER.

----So you are a member of Jim's "The entire Trinity has always been, is now, and always will be in agony on the cross" cult?

Father_JD

02-17-2010, 02:29 PM

---I don't recall seeing a real refutation of the holes in your theology that I exposed via my Parable of the Hasbro Evil Robot Designer/Builder/Activator parable. Should I make yet another thread on it, and give you one more chance to refute it?

What you apparently still don't "get", jeff...is if the Mormo-deity is "omniscient", your Hasbro Evil Robot Designer/Builder/Activator is likewise just as guilty. :rolleyes:

----So you are a member of Jim's "The entire Trinity has always been, is now, and always will be in agony on the cross" cult?

I think Jim was referring to verses which speak to Christ's "Crucified from the foundation of the world" but I can't answer to his statements but I don't believe Christianity has historically taught an eternal "agony on the cross". :o

alanmolstad

08-02-2012, 07:47 AM

Let's consider this question in light of the mainstream concept of creation. Was Lucifer created by God, out of nothing, to do good or evil?

Created to do good....Created to worship.....Created to praise God forever...

alanmolstad

08-02-2012, 07:50 AM

If so when, specifically, did he become evil?

I don't know that we have a date...

We read in genesis that the serpent was already up to no good by the introduction of Eve into the story...But I don't think we can say that was the first moment the angel turned evil and against God...

I'm not even sure we can say there was a specific "date" as such, being the nature of angels might be past the ability of time and space to limit as it limits us.

What we can learn from the Text is that he was created pure, and yet turned away from God.....

The hint I get from the many stories about how the devil came to be is that Satan had such a high position in the Heavens that it got to him...
He was so close to the Lord's glory that he started to think of God's glory as being his own....

It may well be that all of this universe is God's answer to the challenge raise by Satan about "faith"

alanmolstad

10-26-2012, 09:27 PM

Let's consider this question in light of the mainstream concept of creation. Was Lucifer created by God, out of nothing, to do good or evil?

I believe he was created to be good, to worship and serve...

But I read that pride crept into his heart and he fell away

alanmolstad

10-26-2012, 09:32 PM

Was Lucifer immediately after creation good? If so when, specifically, did he become evil?

....

i dont think I can answer the question, "When did Satan fall?"

I dont think there is a very clear answer in the Bible to that question....

And...im not sure Angels tell time like humans do, so the question of "when?" might not have a good answer...

alanmolstad

10-26-2012, 09:34 PM

The other part of this is, why are we all created, according to the mainstream Christian religion, at birth?

when dealing with the topic of abortion, I believe that "Life starts at conception"

Pa Pa

10-27-2012, 03:46 PM

Let's consider this question in light of the mainstream concept of creation. Was Lucifer created by God, out of nothing, to do good or evil? Was Lucifer immediately after creation good? If so when, specifically, did he become evil?

The other part of this is, why are we all created, according to the mainstream Christian religion, at birth? That is both our spirits and our physical bodies, but Lucifer was created only as spirit? Why did God decide to create those who would only be spirits and those who would have physical bodies and spirit bodies?

Looking forward to an enlightening discussion on the topic.

love,
stem

God can only create in perfection...the real question is did he know who he was creating and the evils he would do. If so this would make God evil would it not?

alanmolstad

10-27-2012, 05:08 PM

God knew from the beginning what would happen.

But God was not scared to give free will to his creations...

Pa Pa

10-27-2012, 07:53 PM

God knew from the beginning what would happen.

But God was not scared to give free will to his creations...

Or the illusion of free will...

alanmolstad

10-27-2012, 08:12 PM

if my free will is not real.....then neither is my love for God

Libby

10-28-2012, 12:18 AM

Good point, Alan....very good point.

Pa Pa

10-28-2012, 01:53 AM

if my free will is not real.....then neither is my love for God

I agree...my response a pre-emptive one for comments I would home.

James Banta

10-28-2012, 01:46 PM

if my free will is not real.....then neither is my love for God

Does God knowing you and what you will do in your life negate the fact that He allows you to have free well? I don't see why that has to be.. IHS jim

alanmolstad

11-23-2012, 01:17 PM

Does God knowing you and what you will do in your life negate the fact that He allows you to have free well? I don't see why that has to be.. IHS jim

Unless God knows all that is to be, he is not really God.

Unless I have free will I cant really love God.

alanmolstad

04-22-2013, 03:05 PM

Let's consider this question in light of the mainstream concept of creation. Was Lucifer created by God, out of nothing, to do good or evil?

Was Lucifer immediately after creation good?

If so when, specifically, did he become evil?

Im not sure we are told the year that Satan went off the rails....

I know that Satan was created "good'....but went bad on his own...

Ezekiel 28:15 You were blameless in your ways from the day you were created till wickedness was found in you

RealFakeHair

04-23-2013, 09:05 AM

I
Ezekiel 28:15 You were blameless in your ways from the day you were created till wickedness was found in you

Funny thing, this is the same thing my mom said about me!

nrajeffreturns

04-23-2013, 10:48 AM

Ezekiel 28:15 You were blameless in your ways from the day you were created till wickedness was found in you

Doesn't this Bible verse support the LDS doctrine that all babies are born blameless/innocent/guiltless and remain that way until some later point in their lives?

RealFakeHair

04-23-2013, 11:02 AM

nrajeffreturns

04-23-2013, 03:10 PM

I don't know of any,
I just told you one.

:)

RealFakeHair

04-23-2013, 03:15 PM

I just told you one.

:)

So, are you saying, all babies are born little devils? Be careful my wive is watching and we have 6 little devils I mean angels.

nrajeffreturns

04-23-2013, 06:28 PM

So, are you saying, all babies are born little devils? Be careful my wive is watching and we have 6 little devils I mean angels.

No, I mean the opposite: That all babies are angels when they are born. I have 4 of them myself.

James Banta

04-27-2013, 08:42 AM

No, I mean the opposite: That all babies are angels when they are born. I have 4 of them myself.

You had to teach your children to lie? Mine did that all on their own.. I had to teach mine to tell the truth.. Even the BofM supports that lying is evil:

2 Nephi 9:34
Wo unto the liar, for he shall be thrust down to hell.

All my children were born with the stain of sin.. They needed Jesus from the their first breath.. IHS jim

So tell me how many lies mist a person tell to become a liar? I always thought it was ONE.. IHS jim

nrajeffreturns

04-30-2013, 01:17 PM

You had to teach your children to lie?
They were pretty innocent when they were born. I think they only LATER learned about lying from the bad examples of other people--other kids or adults. I wonder if science will someday be able to hook up a polygraph to unborn fetuses and catch them lying while still in the womb? Doubtful.

All my children were born with the stain of sin..
Who stained them? I don't see God working that way.

They needed Jesus from the their first breath.
We all need Jesus from day one, but not because we were sinning in the womb.

So tell me how many lies mist a person tell to become a liar? I always thought it was ONE.. IHS jim
You are correct. But fetuses don't tell any lies.

Libby

04-30-2013, 01:34 PM

Yeah, I don't believe babies can sin, either, although, we are all born with the propensity to sin.

But, I was wondering about the belief in a premortal life, where, supposedly, personalities were already forming. Was that a place of complete innocence? Or were "mistakes" made, even then? Many premortal spirits did choose to leave God's presence, so I would ***ume there is ability to sin there?

James Banta

04-30-2013, 03:15 PM

They were pretty innocent when they were born. I think they only LATER learned about lying from the bad examples of other people--other kids or adults. I wonder if science will someday be able to hook up a polygraph to unborn fetuses and catch them lying while still in the womb? Doubtful.

Who stained them? I don't see God working that way.

We all need Jesus from day one, but not because we were sinning in the womb.

You are correct. But fetuses don't tell any lies.

So a new born is born thinking of others before themselves. They never cry when mom and dad are tired. As they get older, they share so readily with other children. When they do something wrong they never blame anyone else.. Come on, babies are born 100% natural. They respond ONLY to their needs, small children will not share what they believe is THEIRS, and then when they think they can avoid being in trouble they will lie.. They don't learn these attributes they have it born in them. They are evil from their very conception (Psalm 51:5)..

Who stained the children, they do it on their own because of the sin or our first father (Roman 5:12) We all need Jesus because we are all sinners.. Not all except babies and small children, The Word teaches that ALL HAVE SINNED (Romans 3:23).. No need to tell me how it is that I am wrong. Explain that to God.. Tell Him that His word is a lie and how pure even a new born is.. IHS jim

nrajeffreturns

04-30-2013, 03:42 PM

Yeah, I don't believe babies can sin, either, although, we are all born with the propensity to sin.
Correct, for the vast majority of humans. Those with scrambled brains who don't know what they are doing, really can't sin. Because in order to be able to sin, one must have the ability to tell right from wrong, and then deliberately do wrong.

But, I was wondering about the belief in a premortal life, where, supposedly, personalities were already forming. Was that a place of complete innocence? Or were "mistakes" made, even then? Many premortal spirits did choose to leave God's presence, so I would ***ume there is ability to sin there?
LDS doctrine is that just like down here, we reached a point in our development where we were able to know right and wrong. From that point on, some like Lucifer made bad choices.

Libby

04-30-2013, 03:46 PM

nrajeffreturns

04-30-2013, 03:58 PM

So a new born is born thinking of others before themselves.
I have a feeling that newborns aren't aware of the commandment to put the needs of others before their own needs. You need to cut them some slack, Jim. They think simple thoughts such as "I hunger. I am in pain. I am scared. I feel safe and loved by my mom." Even JESUS had those kinds of thoughts. Please don't accuse Jesus of sinning. It's not a sin, regardless what some Calvinist tried to sell you on the subject.

They are evil from their very conception (Psalm 51:5)..
I disagree both with your claim and with your claim that the psalm teaches such a thing.

Who stained the children, they do it on their own because of the sin or our first father (Roman 5:12)
What if Paul was teaching in the context of people who had matured to a state of accountability for their actions? Fetuses don't sin, Jim. Although I bet that Dr. Kermit Gosnell, the house of horrors abortionist, would find it easier to sleep at night if he believed that all those babies he killed had already sinned and the wages of sin is death.

No need to tell me how it is that I am wrong. Explain that to God..
I only need to explain it to you. God already agrees with me. :)

Tell Him that His word is a lie and how pure even a new born is..
He already knows that babies are innocent, He is the one who revealed that precious knowledge. The idea that fetuses have already sinned even before they are born is a terrible lie, invented during the Dark Ages by folks like Calvin or Jonathan Edwards, and it probably makes satan smile every time someone believes that lie.

Billyray

04-30-2013, 10:51 PM

Yeah, I don't believe babies can sin, either, although, we are all born with the propensity to sin.

What about the verses that say that we ALL sin? Do you deny those verses like all of the other parts of the Bible that you have thrown out?

Libby

05-01-2013, 12:13 AM

What about the verses that say that we ALL sin? Do you deny those verses like all of the other parts of the Bible that you have thrown out?

Which verses, Billy?

I haven't thrown anything out. I question a lot or I might put some thngs aside for awhile, but I haven't thrown anything out.

Libby

05-01-2013, 12:28 AM

http://www.topicalbiblestudies.com/original-sin.php

Innocent or Guilty?
Are babies born innocent or guilty? Scripture says, “The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father's iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son's iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself” (Eze. 18:20). This verse plainly teaches that the righteous father will not be held guilty for his son’s sins. Likewise, a righteous son will not be guilty for his father’s sins. Instead, it is upon each individual person whether or not he or she lives a righteous or wicked life. “So then each one of us will give an account of himself to God” (Rom. 14:12).

We must understand that sin is spoken of in Scripture as something chosen, and not inherited. “Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness” (1 Jn. 3:4). We read in Scripture that there is a time in a person’s life when he or she “knows enough to refuse evil and choose good” (Isa. 7:15-16). Evil is something one chooses, not inherits.

Jesus promises, “Truly I say to you, unless you are converted and become like children, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven” (Mt. 18:3). Does Jesus want us to convert and become like lawless, sinful children, who are destined for hell? Jesus promises us that we cannot enter the kingdom of heaven if we do not become like children (see also 1 Cor. 14:20). Children obviously represent innocence. This verse makes no sense if children are born totally depraved. Sin separates us from God (Isa. 59:2). If children are sinful, they are separated from God. But they are innocent. That’s why we have to become like them (innocent, teachable, trusting) to enter the kingdom of heaven. Why else would Jesus tell us to become like children?

Similarly, Jesus told His disciples on one occasion, “Let the children alone, and do not hinder them from coming to Me; for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these” (Mt. 19:14). Again, think about what this verse would mean if children inherit sin. The kingdom of heaven would belong to those separated from God. Instead, since children are innocent, the kingdom of heaven belongs to the innocent- those who belong to God.

Scripture teaches us that, at death, “the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it” (Eccl. 12:7). The parents do not give the soul to a child, but God does. If God hates sin (Ps. 45:7), cannot look at sin (Isa. 59:2), and is the giver of the spirit, a newborn baby’s soul cannot be sinful.

Billyray

05-01-2013, 01:06 AM

Which verses, Billy?

Romans 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

Psalm 14:3 They have all turned aside, together they have become corrupt;
There is no one who does good, not even one.

Mark 10:18 And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone

Libby

05-01-2013, 01:20 AM

Romans 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

Psalm 14:3 They have all turned aside, together they have become corrupt;
There is no one who does good, not even one.

Mark 10:18 And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone

Matthew 19:14
14 But Jesus said, “Let the children alone, and do not hinder them from coming to Me; for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.”

Were these special children? Or was he talking about all children?

Matthew 18:3 and said, “Truly I say to you, unless you are converted and become like children, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.

Billyray

05-01-2013, 01:23 AM

Libby

05-01-2013, 01:29 AM

Care to address the verses that I gave you or would you rather p***?

We were speaking, specifically, about babies. The verses you provided may include them, in that we are all born with a propensity to sin, but I think the verses I provided show that even Jesus believed children were still innocent.

Billyray

05-01-2013, 06:51 AM

We were speaking, specifically, about babies. The verses you provided may include them, in that we are all born with a propensity to sin, but I think the verses I provided show that even Jesus believed children were still innocent.

I guess your answer shows me that you don't want to address the verses that I gave you.

Libby

05-01-2013, 11:00 AM

I guess your answer shows me that you don't want to address the verses that I gave you.

I guess your answer shows me that you focus on certain verses in the Bible and don't want to be bothered with those that contradict.

James Banta

05-01-2013, 11:07 AM

James, I have eight grandchildren and they do share very willingly, a lot of the time (but, perhaps, they are exceptional children...:D)

Babies are by nature, self-centered, not because they are evil or sinful, but because it is a part of their survival mechanism. They are completely helpless and dependent on others. It's silly to think that they even have the capacity to think of anyone but themselves. They are not even really "thinking", as you and I know it. They are mostly a set of reflexes and responses.

There I am not disagreeing with you.. But the natural man the base nature in us all is against God.. Even throe BofM teaches that.. The Bible then teaches is that that natural birth is NOT enough to make us God's children. We need to have a new birth a spiritual birth.. The natural is very easy to see in babies. You are correct that is all they know, me, me, me. Those are the ways of the natural and must be overcome. They are thinking, if they were they couldn't cry when their bottom hurts, or when their stomach is empty. They react to that naturally not spiritually.

You must have exceptional children. I have never seen one that didn't say "MINE!" when another child wants a toy they they have.. Thee other makes their frustration know to everyone by crying.. Both are selfish. You are incredible that they didn't do that.. IHS jim

Libby

05-01-2013, 11:12 AM

I'm not disagreeing with you about "natural man"...but it's not a sin to cry when you are hurting (not even for an adult, let alone a baby). I have already said that babies have the "propensity" towards sin, and they will sin, when they're much older, but as babies, even as small children, they are still innocent. Jesus believed they were, as well, as he said the Kingdom of God is made of up of such as these.

James Banta

05-01-2013, 11:30 AM

[nrajeffreturns;143725]I have a feeling that newborns aren't aware of the commandment to put the needs of others before their own needs. You need to cut them some slack, Jim. They think simple thoughts such as "I hunger. I am in pain. I am scared. I feel safe and loved by my mom." Even JESUS had those kinds of thoughts. Please don't accuse Jesus of sinning. It's not a sin, regardless what some Calvinist tried to sell you on the subject.

How can you show that the Lord had these thoughts? I need a reference. What you want to believe has nothing to do with the real occurrences, regardless of what Jeff wants to believe..

I disagree both with your claim and with your claim that the psalm teaches such a thing.

The way you want things to be don't seem to be supported by scripture. I have shown you where my claims are supported in the Psalm. Eother explain why you are right through the scripture as I did or just don't bother to comment.

What if Paul was teaching in the context of people who had matured to a state of accountability for their actions? Fetuses don't sin, Jim. Although I bet that Dr. Kermit Gosnell, the house of horrors abortionist, would find it easier to sleep at night if he believed that all those babies he killed had already sinned and the wages of sin is death.

Ducks hatch ducks, Pigs give birth to pigs, Sinners bare sinners.. Everything after it's kind. We are sinners because of the fall. Each of us has that mark on us. Weather you see it or none we have all fallen short of the glory of God, we have all sinned, even the new born.. How ever, just in case you didn't know God said He is the one who will repay (Romans 12:19). punishing for sin it not Dr. Gosnell place anymore than it is yours. All who are born are sinners subject to death the same an all people.. Many a child born into this world suffer that penalty long before their first year on this world.

I only need to explain it to you. God already agrees with me. :)

He does? CFR

He already knows that babies are innocent, He is the one who revealed that precious knowledge. The idea that fetuses have already sinned even before they are born is a terrible lie, invented during the Dark Ages by folks like Calvin or Jonathan Edwards, and it probably makes satan smile every time someone believes that lie.

He does? Where is this "precious knowledge" Again CFR.. The only place I know where the subject it taught in the Bible is Psalm 51 as I have quoted it.. "In sin was I conceived".. All you have given me is your personal beliefs on the subject. You didn't even quote LDS scripture.. I guess you know I put as much stock in them as you do the creeds.. But LDS demand that they believe the Bible.. I guess you do as long as it agrees with LDS doctrine.. Christian believe the WHOLE Bible and base our doctrine on what in taught there. Our disagreements is when you abandon the scripture in favor of what men (GAs) teach.. The Bible teaches truth, men teach lies, it is what come natural to them.. IHS jim

nrajeffreturns

05-01-2013, 03:45 PM

How can you show that the Lord had these thoughts?
By quoting from the Bible. Is that up to your standards?

I need a reference.
John 19:28

The way you want things to be don't seem to be supported by scripture.
I think John 19:28 supports me and refutes you.

We are sinners because of the fall.
Not really, but I can see how centuries of Dark-ages bad doctrine can be hard for the modern Christian to jettison.

He does? Where is this "precious knowledge"
Why, it's in the Book of Mormon. Have you forgotten what was revealed to Mormon about the innocence of little children? Didn't you used to be a TBM who had studied LDS doctrine?

Because they cannot sin, they have no need of repentance, neither baptism. Adam’s original transgression has no claim as a result of the atonement of Jesus Christ. Mormon declared the practice of baptizing little children to be a “solemn mockery before God” (Moro. 8:9), for repentance and baptism apply to those who are “accountable and capable of committing sin” (Moro. 8:10).

Because all children who die before the age of accountability are pure, innocent, and wholly sin-free, they are saved in the celestial kingdom of heaven (see D&C 137:10; Mosiah 3:18). Understanding the special status of little children before God, because of their pure and innocent nature, brings understanding of the Lord’s commandment to “repent, and become as a little child, and be baptized in [His] name” (3 Ne. 11:37). The childlike qualities the Lord had reference to are developed by yielding to “the enticings of the Holy Spirit,” so as to become “submissive, meek, humble, patient, full of love, willing to submit to all things which the Lord seeth fit to inflict upon him, even as a child doth submit to his father.” Truly, such a person “becometh a saint” as spoken by Mosiah (Mosiah 3:19).

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/1994/04/the-special-status-of-children?lang=eng

dberrie2000

05-02-2013, 05:04 AM

. We are sinners because of the fall.

That is a false doctrine, James. The Bible states we are all absolved of the condemnation of the Fall due to Christ's Atonement--which is why He is called the Redeemer:

Romans 5:18---King James Version (KJV)

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Free gift to all mankind, James. All are released from the condemnation of the Fall--all have the opportunity to inherit eternal life now. If that condemnation is still with mankind--then no one can inherit life.

Billyray

05-02-2013, 09:58 AM

That is a false doctrine, James. The Bible states we are all absolved of the condemnation of the Fall due to Christ's Atonement--which is why He is called the Redeemer:

Romans 5:18---King James Version (KJV)

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Free gift to all mankind, James. All are released from the condemnation of the Fall--all have the opportunity to inherit eternal life now. If that condemnation is still with mankind--then no one can inherit life.
Define justification.

dberrie2000

05-02-2013, 03:45 PM

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post---That is a false doctrine, James. The Bible states we are all absolved of the condemnation of the Fall due to Christ's Atonement--which is why He is called the Redeemer:

Romans 5:18---King James Version (KJV)

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Free gift to all mankind, James. All are released from the condemnation of the Fall--all have the opportunity to inherit eternal life now. If that condemnation is still with mankind--then no one can inherit life.

[QUOTE=Billyray;143787]Define justification.

Definition of JUSTIFY

1--a : to prove or show to be just, right, or reasonable

b (1) : to show to have had a sufficient legal reason (2) : to qualify (oneself) as a surety by taking oath to the ownership of sufficient property

2--a archaic : to administer justice to

b archaic : absolve

Billyray

05-03-2013, 10:50 AM

[quote]Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post---That is a false doctrine, James. The Bible states we are all absolved of the condemnation of the Fall due to Christ's Atonement--which is why He is called the Redeemer:

Romans 5:18---King James Version (KJV)

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Free gift to all mankind, James. All are released from the condemnation of the Fall--all have the opportunity to inherit eternal life now. If that condemnation is still with mankind--then no one can inherit life.

Definition of JUSTIFY

1--a : to prove or show to be just, right, or reasonable

b (1) : to show to have had a sufficient legal reason (2) : to qualify (oneself) as a surety by taking oath to the ownership of sufficient property

2--a archaic : to administer justice to

b archaic : absolve
So do you really believe that ALL men are just and right before God?

Billyray

05-03-2013, 03:56 PM

I guess your answer shows me that you focus on certain verses in the Bible and don't want to be bothered with those that contradict.

Which verses, Billy?

Romans 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

Psalm 14:3 They have all turned aside, together they have become corrupt; There is no one who does good, not even one.

Mark 10:18 And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone

Libby you asked me for some verses and I gave them to you. Are you going to address these verses or not?

Libby

05-03-2013, 10:45 PM

So do you really believe that ALL men are just and right before God?

No, it means we are all responsible only for our own sins, not the sins of Adam or our parents.

Libby

05-03-2013, 10:48 PM

Romans 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

Psalm 14:3 They have all turned aside, together they have become corrupt; There is no one who does good, not even one.

Mark 10:18 And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone

Libby you asked me for some verses and I gave them to you. Are you going to address these verses or not?

I believe these verses apply to those who have reached an age of accountability.

Bible Verses About Age of Accountability (http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Bible-Verses-About-Age-of-Accountability/)

Billyray

05-03-2013, 10:50 PM

I believe these verses apply to those who have reached an age of accountability.

But that is not what the verses say Libby. And "age of accountability" doesn't mean that children do not sin, but that they are not responsible for any sin.

Libby

05-03-2013, 10:57 PM

But that is not what the verses say Libby. And "age of accountability" doesn't mean that children do not sin, but that they are not responsible for any sin.

That's correct. Children do sin...but, they are not accountable ("for such as these make up the Kingdom of Heaven")

Billyray

05-03-2013, 11:01 PM

That's correct. Children do sin...but, they are not accountable ("for such as these make up the Kingdom of Heaven")
I thought that you said that children do not sin?

Libby

05-03-2013, 11:03 PM

I thought that you said that children do not sin?

No, I said, I don't believe babies sin.

Billyray

05-03-2013, 11:05 PM

No, I said, I don't believe babies sin.

But the verses that I gave you disprove your belief.

Libby

05-03-2013, 11:10 PM

Billy, even you said that you believed babies probably go to heaven and that King David's baby was a possible example. There is no way babies sin. Crying helplessly, because they need something, is not sin.

If they are, possibly, imputed with sin, which makes them unholy before God, then I would say, Christ covers it. But, I'm not going to even commit to imputation of sin....only that it is a possibility.

Billyray

05-03-2013, 11:15 PM

Billy, even you said that you believed babies probably go to heaven and that King David's baby was a possible example. There is no way babies sin.
We ALL sin. If living a sinless life is the requirement to get into heaven then there wouldn't be a single person in heaven.

Billyray

05-03-2013, 11:17 PM

There is no way babies sin.
NIV
Psalm 51:5 Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.

Libby

05-03-2013, 11:19 PM

NIV
Psalm 51:5 Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.

Old Testament, before Christ. Probably talking about imputation of the sin nature...not personal sin.

OR could have just been speaking figuratively, not literally.

Libby

05-03-2013, 11:20 PM

We ALL sin. If living a sinless life is the requirement to get into heaven then there wouldn't be a single person in heaven.

Of course. But, that doesn't mean babies commit personal sin.

Billyray

05-03-2013, 11:21 PM

Old Testament, before Christ. Probably talking about imputation of the sin nature...not personal sin.

OR could have just been speaking figuratively, not literally.
Again you reject scripture because it goes against what you feel is right. What you or I may feel is right based on our human reasoning doesn't make it so even if it seems right to us.

Libby

05-03-2013, 11:22 PM

Again you reject scripture because it goes against what you feel is right.

I don't reject it, at all. I just don't interpret it exactly as you do.

Billyray

05-03-2013, 11:23 PM

I don't reject it, at all. I just don't interpret it exactly as you do.
You just did reject it.

Psalm 51:5 Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.

How else can you interpret "Surely I was sinful at birth"?

Libby

05-03-2013, 11:26 PM

You just did reject it.

Psalm 51:5 Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.

How else can you interpret "Surely I was sinful at birth"?

Just as I told you. A figure of speech, not literal.

And, no, I do not reject it, anymore than the millions of Christians who also hold that interpretation.

Billyray

05-03-2013, 11:29 PM

Just as I told you. A figure of speech, not literal.

What message was he trying to convey?

Billyray

05-03-2013, 11:36 PM

Just as I told you. A figure of speech, not literal.

Romans 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

Do you believe that this verse is also a figure of speech?

Libby

05-03-2013, 11:47 PM

Romans 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

Do you believe that this verse is also a figure of speech?

No, I believe, according to the Bible, it applies to those who are accountable.

Libby

05-03-2013, 11:49 PM

What message was he trying to convey?

That we are born with a very deep and inescapable inclination towards sin.

Billyray

05-03-2013, 11:59 PM

That we are born with a very deep and inescapable inclination towards sin.
Even as a baby?

Libby

05-04-2013, 12:03 AM

Even as a baby?

I said "born with". We all do sin, and usually very quickly...but in the first year? Not likely.

Billyray

05-04-2013, 12:05 AM

I said "born with". We all do sin, and usually very quickly...but in the first year? Not likely.
This is what you believe based on your feelings not what the Bible actually teaches.

Libby

05-04-2013, 12:12 AM

This is what you believe based on your feelings not what the Bible actually teaches.

This is what I know according to the Bible and Jesus Christ, himself. He is the one who said, let the children come to me, because it is such as them who make up the Kingdom of Heaven.

Matthew 19:14 Jesus said, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these."

I think the verses that talk about being "born in sin" are talking about our natural proclivity towards sin.

Billyray

05-04-2013, 12:14 AM

This is what I know according to the Bible and Jesus Christ, himself. He is the one who said, let the children come to me, because it is such as them who make up the Kingdom of Heaven.

Matthew 19:14 Jesus said, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these."
And where in there does is say that babies do not sin?

What do you this that this verse is teaching? That in order to get into to heaven you have to live a sin free life?

Libby

05-04-2013, 12:15 AM

And where in there does is say that babies do not sin?

What do you this that this verse is teaching? That in order to get into to heaven you have to live a sin free life?

That children are teachable, that they have an open mind and have an innocence that adults often do not have.

Billyray

05-04-2013, 12:18 AM

That children are teachable, that they have an open mind and have an innocence that adults often do not have.
Which has nothing to do with whether or not they have sinned or not and yet you are using this verse to support your belief that they do not sin. Don't you see the problem with that?

Libby

05-04-2013, 12:25 AM

What I see is that Jesus believed children had more innocence and less guile than most adults.

Billyray

05-04-2013, 12:28 AM

What I see is that Jesus believed children had more innocence and less guile than most adults.
Here was your prior statement

"That children are teachable, that they have an open mind and have an innocence that adults often do not have."

Again nothing about being sin free. Do you really believe that the message is that in order to enter heaven you have to live a sin free life?

Libby

05-04-2013, 12:37 AM

Here was your prior statement

"That children are teachable, that they have an open mind and have an innocence that adults often do not have."

Again nothing about being sin free. Do you really believe that the message is that in order to enter heaven you have to live a sin free life?

No. I don't believe that. I know that we need Jesus Christ.

Billyray

05-04-2013, 12:42 AM

No. I don't believe that. I know that we need Jesus Christ.
You asked me way back about verses that show that we all sin and gave you several. You then tried to counter this argument by using Matthew 19:14 which even by your own admission doesn't say one thing about babies not sinning. Don't you realize yet that you are wrong and that you are simply rejecting what the Bible says based on your own feelings rather than on the word of God?

Libby

05-04-2013, 12:57 AM

You asked me way back about verses that show that we all sin and gave you several. You then tried to counter this argument by using Matthew 19:14 which even by your own admission doesn't say one thing about babies not sinning. Don't you realize yet that you are wrong and that you are simply rejecting what the Bible says based on your own feelings rather than on the word of God?

No, I don't believe I am wrong about babies, at all. Your verses are figurative.

Babies have a sin nature, just as we all do, but committing actual sin takes accountability (and THAT is Biblical!)...so, even children, who do sin, are not accountable, until they understand that they are sinning.

Billyray

05-04-2013, 01:01 AM

No, I don't believe I am wrong about babies, at all.
I know you believe that because it is based on your feelings not on the Bible, you have yet to address the verses that I gave you and the verse you gave me doesn't even talk about whether or not a baby sins.

Libby

05-04-2013, 01:02 AM

Goodnight, Billy.

nrajeffreturns

05-04-2013, 09:53 AM

And where in there does is say that babies do not sin?

I think the very definition of the word sin helps us figure out who sins and who does not. If sin is the knowing, deliberate disobedience to God's will, then we sin when we understand that doing something would be wrong, and we deliberately do it anyway. In order to sin, you have to be able to sin. Babies can't sin because they lack both the requirements:

They don't understand what God's will is yet.
Therefore anything they did or failed to do was not rebellion against God on purpose.

If we understand the above, then it helps us figure out the group of people the NT was referring to where it says that all have sinned. It has to exclude babies, just like "ALL" excludes Jesus, because although Jesus knew right from wrong, good and evil, He never deliberately rebelled against God.

If I get too much change back at the store and I don't realize it, I took money that didn't belong to me, but I didn't do it on purpose, so it's not a sin. If I later realize my "sin" and I fail to return the money, THEN it's a sin.

Libby

05-04-2013, 12:45 PM

Good observation (about the definition), Jeff.

A baby doesn't even know the concept of sin. Nor does a young baby have the ability to commit a sin. It is not sinful to cry for your needs. Good heavens, we cry to God for our needs, all the time.

Billyray

05-04-2013, 02:26 PM

If sin is the knowing, deliberate disobedience to God's will, then we sin when we understand that doing something would be wrong, and we deliberately do it anyway.
And where did you come up with that definition of sin?

Leviticus 5:17 “If anyone sins and does what is forbidden in any of the Lord’s commands, even though they do not know it, they are guilty and will be held responsible

Libby

05-04-2013, 03:00 PM

I think he was referring to a couple of things. Paul talked about circumcision and other Jewish law that might be sin for Jews, if they don't follow, but not for Gentiles.

He also posted James 4:17 "If anyone, then, knows the good they ought to do and doesn't do it, it is sin for them." Seems to infer that if you don't know, it is not sin. Seems like that could apply to babies and mentally handicapped.

Billyray

05-04-2013, 03:02 PM

I think he was referring to a couple of things. Paul talked about circumcision and other Jewish law that might be sin for Jews, if they don't follow, but not for Gentiles.

Leviticus 5:17 “If anyone sins and does what is forbidden in any of the Lord’s commands, even though they do not know it, they are guilty and will be held responsible

Libby tell me what this verse says. BTW you are defending the Mormon position again--not the Christian position. Wouldn't a Christian such as yourself defend Christian beliefs rather that the beliefs of a false religion?

Libby

05-04-2013, 03:07 PM

Leviticus 5:17 “If anyone sins and does what is forbidden in any of the Lord’s commands, even though they do not know it, they are guilty and will be held responsible

Libby tell me what this verse says. BTW you are defending the Mormon position again--not the Christian position. Wouldn't a Christian such as yourself defend Christian beliefs rather that the beliefs of a false religion?

You are confusing the issue, as usual. I know plenty of Christians who don't believe babies can sin. Born with a sin nature, yes...but, actually commit personal sin? No. That is far from being just an LDS belief.

Libby

05-04-2013, 03:09 PM

Libby tell me what this verse says.

It says exactly what it says....which really has nothing to do with whether or not babies sin.

It also contradicts several other verses in the Bible. If I have to pick and choose, I'll take from the N.T., which applies to Christians. Not the old Jewish law.

Billyray

05-04-2013, 03:10 PM

He also posted James 4:17 "If anyone, then, knows the good they ought to do and doesn't do it, it is sin for them." Seems to infer that if you don't know, it is not sin. Seems like that could apply to babies and mentally handicapped.
It is true that if you know that you should do something and don't do it that it is sin. But this says nothing about God's laws that you broke and were unaware of breaking them. Which is clearly stated in Leviticus 5:17.

Billyray

05-04-2013, 03:13 PM

You are confusing the issue, as usual.
Not at all Libby you are. Just because someone doesn't know what the Bible teaches doesn't make them right. You are mixing up two separate issues: Sin and accountability. For example a 5 year old kid steals a candy bar from the corner store. He is guilty of breaking the law but he will not be held accountable for his actions nor charged with a crime.

Billyray

05-04-2013, 03:15 PM

It says exactly what it says....which really has nothing to do with whether or not babies sin.

Leviticus 5:17 “If anyone sins and does what is forbidden in any of the Lord’s commands, even though they do not know it, they are guilty and will be held responsible

So was Jeff right or wrong in how he defined sin?

Billyray

05-04-2013, 03:17 PM

It says exactly what it says....which really has nothing to do with whether or not babies sin.

But these verses that I already gave you do. Which you have totally ignored.

Romans 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

Psalm 14:3 They have all turned aside, together they have become corrupt; There is no one who does good, not even one.

Mark 10:18 And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone

Psalm 51:5 Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.

Billyray

05-04-2013, 03:21 PM

which really has nothing to do with whether or not babies sin.

Why the push on your part to say that babies do not sin?

Libby

05-04-2013, 03:48 PM

Why the push on your part to say that babies do not sin?

No push. I just don't believe they do. I've observed plenty of babies in my lifetime. They don't sin.

Are they born with a propensity towards sin? Yes, absolutely.

Billyray

05-04-2013, 04:39 PM

No push. I just don't believe they do. I've observed plenty of babies in my lifetime. They don't sin.

Your beliefs go against what the Bible teaches, but what I was tying to get at is why does it make a difference from a Christian point of view if you believe a baby does not sin but a 1 or 2 year old does sin?

Libby

05-04-2013, 06:26 PM

Your beliefs go against what the Bible teaches, but what I was tying to get at is why does it make a difference from a Christian point of view if you believe a baby does not sin but a 1 or 2 year old does sin?

First of all, my belief is not unbiblical. It just disagrees with your interpretation.

Second, it doesn't matter that much in that Jesus' sacrifice covers all children, IMO.

Billyray

05-04-2013, 06:31 PM

First of all, my belief is not unbiblical.
Sure they are Libby. I gave you multiple verses that you seem unable or unwilling to address AND you have not given me a single verse that says that some people sin and others do not.

Billyray

05-04-2013, 06:32 PM

Second, it doesn't matter that much in that Jesus' sacrifice covers all children, IMO.

Why would people who did not sin need Jesus' sacrifice since they never sinned (in your opinion)?

Libby

05-04-2013, 06:51 PM

Why would people who did not sin need Jesus' sacrifice since they never sinned (in your opinion)?

Because they are born with a sin nature.

Billyray

05-04-2013, 06:55 PM

Because they are born with a sin nature.

But if they are perfect why the need for Jesus' sacrifice?

Libby

05-04-2013, 07:21 PM

But if they are perfect why the need for Jesus' sacrifice?

I didn't say they were perfect. I said, they didn't have the ability to commit personal sin.

Billyray

05-04-2013, 07:34 PM

I didn't say they were perfect. I said, they didn't have the ability to commit personal sin.

Why aren't they perfect if they haven't committed any sin?

Libby

05-04-2013, 11:34 PM

Why aren't they perfect if they haven't committed any sin?

Because we are born with a sin nature.

Billyray

05-05-2013, 12:10 AM

Because we are born with a sin nature.
So they are sinners then?

Libby

05-05-2013, 12:31 AM

So they are sinners then?

Babies are potential sinners, not actual sinners.

Billyray

05-05-2013, 01:20 AM

Babies are potential sinners, not actual sinners.

So again if they have not committed any sin and are perfect why do they need the sacrifice of Christ in order to be saved?

Libby

05-05-2013, 01:24 AM

Get off the merry-go-round, Billy. We've already covered this territory.

Billyray

05-05-2013, 01:40 AM

Get off the merry-go-round, Billy. We've already covered this territory.

You can't answer the question of why people who never sin need Jesus.

Libby

05-05-2013, 01:52 AM

You can't answer the question of why people who never sin need Jesus.

Already answered.

Billyray

05-05-2013, 01:56 AM

Already answered.

But your answer made no sense. Jesus died for our sins. If you have no sins why do you need Jesus?

alanmolstad

05-05-2013, 10:09 AM

weeks later and you guys are still dealing with the question of the sins of children?
Look people, the Bible clearly states that Paul was alive before the law came into his life....

This means that no matter the sins the child-Paul was doing they simply were not credited against him until he was old enough to be covered under the law...

Thats the answer people....

Thats also the only answer.....

Libby

05-05-2013, 10:59 AM

We were talking about whether or not babies sin, not the age of accountability.

I think it's rather ridiculous to try and claim that babies commit personal sin. But, even so, you are correct that they are not held accountable.

Waiting for Billy to ask you why these children need Jesus, if they are not held accountable for sin.

Billyray

05-05-2013, 11:39 AM

I think it's rather ridiculous to try and claim that babies commit personal sin.

Why should anyone take to heart what you personally believe especially since many of your beliefs are not in line with the scriptures. What is important is what the Bible says on this issue. Tell me Libby doesn't the Bible teach that we all sin?

Billyray

05-05-2013, 12:19 PM

Waiting for Billy to ask you why these children need Jesus, if they are not held accountable for sin.

Did you forget what we were even talking about? It wasn't accountability rather it is whether or not young children including babies sin.

alanmolstad

05-05-2013, 03:13 PM

Waiting for Billy to ask you why these children need Jesus, if they are not held accountable for sin.

Jesus is God....you dont get to heaven except via Christ no matter your age....even if you are but one hr old,,,or one moment old...you still can not enter into eternal life except via Christ.....case-closed.

thus the idea that even a day old child that dies will stand before the same Lord as i will is a very correct teaching...

alanmolstad

05-05-2013, 03:19 PM

so no matter that a child sins or not...they are not held to be accountable under the teachings of Paul when he said that he was once "alive" before the Law came...

Remember paul said he was 'alive"...not 'sinless'

there is a difference...

so we should NEVER think that children can not sin, as we know all sin, but that what we are taught is that regardless of the sins of a child we see that God will over look their sins and they are not held as being 'guilty" of the sins they do....

Thus as Paul teaches, they have life......

that's the teaching of the bible....that children have 'life".....

Not that they are free from sin....
not that they are free of error....
not that they are guilt-free.....

The only teaching that is supported by the text is that all of us as children were not seen as "dead" ......we were "alive"

Thats the teaching of the Bible.....

ANY OF US THAT TRY TO TWIST THIS?.........well.....they error and do not seem to want to trust the Bible it seems....

Libby

05-05-2013, 04:03 PM

I've never said that "children" cannot sin. They most certainly can.

I am saying babies do not have the ability to sin.

They have "potential", but not yet the ability, since they can't even "reason" to know what a sin might be.

Billyray

05-05-2013, 04:06 PM

Libby

05-05-2013, 04:08 PM

Born in sin.....yes, absolutely. Our parents were sinners, were they not? And, we all will be, soon enough.

Billyray

05-05-2013, 04:17 PM

Born in sin.....yes, absolutely. Our parents were sinners, were they not? And, we all will be, soon enough.

The verses say that we all sin. Why are rejecting what the Bible plainly says?

alanmolstad

05-05-2013, 05:47 PM

I've never said that "children" cannot sin. They most certainly can.

I am saying .....

No you are simply saying what you wish was true, but without a bible verse to back it up.

Im saying what the Bible teaches...

Thats the difference here.....

Billyray

05-05-2013, 05:52 PM

No you are simply saying what you wish was true, but without a bible verse to back it up.

Im saying what the Bible teaches...

Thats the difference here.....
Alan, Libby has made up her own religion based on what she feels is right according to her rather than yielding to what God has taught us in the Bible. She is a false teacher.

Libby

05-05-2013, 08:02 PM

Alan, Libby has made up her own religion based on what she feels is right according to her rather than yielding to what God has taught us in the Bible. She is a false teacher.

Actually, I am very much a Christian. And, I'm not the only Christian who believes that babies do not commit personal sin.

I think it is a travesty that people try to put that on innocent babies.

Libby

05-05-2013, 08:04 PM

No you are simply saying what you wish was true, but without a bible verse to back it up.

Im saying what the Bible teaches...

Thats the difference here.....

Show me where the Bible says that babies commit personal sin.

Your verses are either speaking about the "sin nature" or speaking figuratively. Only a fundamentalist would take those verses absolutely literally and try to make it appear that babies sin.

Billyray

05-05-2013, 09:32 PM

Actually, I am very much a Christian. And, I'm not the only Christian who believes that babies do not commit personal sin.

I think it is a travesty that people try to put that on innocent babies.
Libby if you are truly a Christian you should ask yourself why your ideas don't line up with the Bible. Your beliefs are false in many areas and all you seem to be doing here is trying to sew discord among Christians rather than discuss Mormonism which this board is set up to do.

Billyray

05-05-2013, 09:38 PM

Show me where the Bible says that babies commit personal sin.

Libby I have given you several verses that clearly state that we ALL sin. And you are also aware that sin and accountability are two different topics because we have already discussed this.

Romans 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

Psalm 14:3 They have all turned aside, together they have become corrupt; There is no one who does good, not even one.

Mark 10:18 And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone

Psalm 51:5 Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.

nrajeffreturns

05-05-2013, 09:45 PM

Babies are potential sinners, not actual sinners.

Bingo. That is the solution to the whole controversy, and if Calvin and Edwards had realized and acknowledged that, there would have been a whole lot less arguments over the intervening centuries.

Billyray

05-05-2013, 09:46 PM

Bingo.
So what do you do with all of the verses that say that we ALL sin?

Billyray

05-05-2013, 09:51 PM

Jeff do you believe a 7 year old can sin?

Libby

05-05-2013, 10:36 PM

Bingo. That is the solution to the whole controversy, and if Calvin and Edwards had realized and acknowledged that, there would have been a whole lot less arguments over the intervening centuries.

Yeah, actually, this is an Arminian belief, as well. Billy thinks I got it from Mormonism, but I have actually been espousing Arminian belief on this subject.

Calvin was still very "Catholic" in his belief about babies. He believed in a need for infant baptism, because of imputed original sin.

The Reformed Church I've been attending goes all the way back to the Reformation and it is also very "Catholic". They do infant baptisms, as well.

I was wondering if the Presbyterians do? Will have to look that up.

Libby

05-05-2013, 10:39 PM

Appears that Orthodox Presbyterians (who are Reformed) do infant baptisms, as well. Interesting. They believe in original sin, just as the Roman Catholics do.

Billyray

05-05-2013, 11:12 PM

Appears that Orthodox Presbyterians (who are Reformed) do infant baptisms, as well. Interesting. They believe in original sin, just as the Roman Catholics do.
Why the need to baptize an infant if the infant did no sin?

Billyray

05-05-2013, 11:15 PM

The Reformed Church I've been attending goes all the way back to the Reformation and it is also very "Catholic". They do infant baptisms, as well.

The Reformed churches do not believe that all infants are saved by baptism because many who are baptized as infants will never accept Christ.

BTW Arminians and Calvisist agree that a person is saved when he places his faith in Christ.

Libby

05-06-2013, 12:35 AM

Why the need to baptize an infant if the infant did no sin?

Catholics and Reformed believers, believe as you do, that infants are born in sin.

Billyray

05-06-2013, 12:44 AM

Catholics and Reformed believers, believe as you do, that infants are born in sin.

So do you think that the Reformed churches believe that all those who were baptized as infants will be saved and that all infants who die without baptism will be sent to Hell?

Libby

05-06-2013, 12:51 AM

So do you think that the Reformed churches believe that all those who were baptized as infants will be saved and that all infants who die without baptism will be sent to Hell?

No...I didn't say that. But, the Reformed do believe in original sin, as Catholics do. Their reason for baptizing infants is different. It's more of a dedication and promise to raise the child within the church. Catholic belief is similar, in that baptism is also a promise and dedication....but, they believe it also has a salvific effect on a baby. They belief baptism is necessary. Reformed do not.

Billyray

05-06-2013, 12:55 AM

It's more of a dedication and promise to raise the child within the church.
So it in no way means that infants who are baptized will be saved when they are old enough to make that decision. What relevancy does this have on our discussion?

Billyray

05-06-2013, 12:57 AM

Catholic belief is similar, in that baptism is also a promise and dedication....but, they believe it also has a salvific effect on a baby

So a Catholic baby who is baptized and dies will go to heaven and a baby who is not baptized and dies will go to hell? Can you show me where this is taught in the Bible?

Libby

05-06-2013, 01:00 AM

So a Catholic baby who is baptized and dies will go to heaven and a baby who is not baptized and dies will go to hell? Can you show me where this is taught in the Bible?

I never said it was taught in the Bible. It's not my belief. Am I a Catholic??

Billyray

05-06-2013, 01:00 AM

I never said it was taught in the Bible. It's not my belief. Am I a Catholic??

So what does this have to do with anything that we are talking about?

Libby

05-06-2013, 01:02 AM

So what does this have to do with anything that we are talking about?

It just sprung out of the conversation about babies. No biggy, Billy. sheesh.

alanmolstad

05-06-2013, 04:13 AM

Show me where the Bible says that babies commit personal sin.

.
all have sinned.....

Not "some" have sinned

Not "Just older people have sinned"

Not "Just people who reach the age of 13 sin"

But the bible teaches the simple fact that 'all' have sinned....

the bible is not concerned that this troubles you....a fact is a fact, and the bible simply states the facts.

This question is a matter of understanding the text and is not subject to a vote of what people want the Bible to say....
It does not matter what the polling numbers might say, it only matters what the bible says....

nrajeffreturns

05-06-2013, 06:12 AM

So what do you do with all of the verses that say that we ALL sin?

All ONE verse? Actually, not even one. Rom. 3:23 doesn't say that we all sin. The author wrote that all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. It doesn't say that 2000 years in the future, all unborn babies WILL sin.

So, to answer your question "what do you do with all of the verses that say that we ALL sin?" I guess the answer is: I don't have to do anything with all of the verses that don't exist in the Bible.

Billyray

05-06-2013, 07:34 AM

All ONE verse? Actually, not even one. Rom. 3:23 doesn't say that we all sin. The author wrote that all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. It doesn't say that 2000 years in the future, all unborn babies WILL sin.

And what do you think ALL have sinned means?

Libby

05-06-2013, 11:24 AM

all have sinned.....

Not "some" have sinned

Not "Just older people have sinned"

Not "Just people who reach the age of 13 sin"

But the bible teaches the simple fact that 'all' have sinned....

the bible is not concerned that this troubles you....a fact is a fact, and the bible simply states the facts.

This question is a matter of understanding the text and is not subject to a vote of what people want the Bible to say....
It does not matter what the polling numbers might say, it only matters what the bible says....

It is figurative. We are all born with the inclination towards sin (sin nature). That doesn't mean we are actually sinning while still in the womb. Do you believe an embryo can sin? It's human! I mean, really, can we please get beyond this ridiculousness?!

nrajeffreturns

05-06-2013, 03:20 PM

And what do you think ALL have sinned means?
I can start the process of figuring out what it means, by realizing what it doesn't mean.
It obviously can't mean literally every person who has ever been conceived and who ever will be conceived, because if "all" meant literally "all" than it would be saying that Jesus sinned, since Jesus is a person, a person who was conceived and was born and had an apparently normal infancy, crying, getting hungry, wanting sleep, and all the other "selfish" things that infants do that Calvinists apparently believe to be sins but aren't.

So, once we know that "all" doesn't mean literally all because we have come up with at least one person who it doesn't include, we can conclude that "all" could have been hyperbole like when you say "Everyone's getting on my nerves today" it doesn't mean literally everyone. Then we can continue to use common sense and read the verse in context. Maybe it referred to all adults in the 1st century who were accountable for any acts of rebellion against God they had committed.
It couldn't have included David's baby, for the reasons I already mentioned.
It's logical to conclude that since babies can't repent, they can't sin, and that if babies can't sin then they don't sin, and therefore were not the beings Paul had in mind when he said that all have sinned. He had to be referring to all who have the ability to sin and who have made a conscious choice to rebel against what they know God's will to be, or, if they don't know about God, against their conscience.

That's a good start toward understanding what "all have sinned" was intended to mean.

Billyray

05-06-2013, 03:21 PM

It is figurative.
There is no reason to ***ume that the verses were meant to be figurative. You don't like what they say so you are making up any excuse you can to discredit it.

Billyray

05-06-2013, 03:23 PM

I can start the process of figuring out what it means, by realizing what it doesn't mean.
It obviously can't mean literally every person who has ever been conceived and who ever will be conceived, because if "all" meant literally "all" than it would be saying that Jesus sinned, since Jesus is a person, a person who was conceived and was born and had an apparently normal infancy, crying, getting hungry, wanting sleep, and all the other "selfish" things that infants do that Calvinists apparently believe to be sins but aren't.

So, once we know that "all" doesn't mean literally all because we have come up with at least one person who it doesn't include, we can conclude that "all" could have been hyperbole like when you say "Everyone's getting on my nerves today" it doesn't mean literally everyone. Then we can continue to use common sense and read the verse in context. Maybe it referred to all adults in the 1st century who were accountable for any acts of rebellion against God they had committed.
It couldn't have included David's baby, for the reasons I already mentioned.
It's logical to conclude that since babies can't repent, they can't sin, and that if babies can't sin then they don't sin, and therefore were not the beings Paul had in mind when he said that all have sinned. He had to be referring to all who have the ability to sin and who have made a conscious choice to rebel against what they know God's will to be, or, if they don't know about God, against their conscience.

That's a good start toward understanding what "all have sinned" was intended to mean.
Why didn't Paul simply say that some but not all people sin?

Libby

05-06-2013, 03:35 PM

There is no reason to ***ume that the verses were meant to be figurative. You don't like what they say so you are making up any excuse you can to discredit it.

It's not that I don't like it. I don't really care.

I just find your particular interpretation to be unrealistic, since I know for a fact, through experience that fetuses and newborn babes do not personally sin. WILL they sin, eventually? Yes, absolutely. We all sin. (except for Jesus)

Libby

05-06-2013, 03:36 PM

I can start the process of figuring out what it means, by realizing what it doesn't mean.
It obviously can't mean literally every person who has ever been conceived and who ever will be conceived, because if "all" meant literally "all" than it would be saying that Jesus sinned, since Jesus is a person, a person who was conceived and was born and had an apparently normal infancy, crying, getting hungry, wanting sleep, and all the other "selfish" things that infants do that Calvinists apparently believe to be sins but aren't.

So, once we know that "all" doesn't mean literally all because we have come up with at least one person who it doesn't include, we can conclude that "all" could have been hyperbole like when you say "Everyone's getting on my nerves today" it doesn't mean literally everyone. Then we can continue to use common sense and read the verse in context. Maybe it referred to all adults in the 1st century who were accountable for any acts of rebellion against God they had committed.
It couldn't have included David's baby, for the reasons I already mentioned.
It's logical to conclude that since babies can't repent, they can't sin, and that if babies can't sin then they don't sin, and therefore were not the beings Paul had in mind when he said that all have sinned. He had to be referring to all who have the ability to sin and who have made a conscious choice to rebel against what they know God's will to be, or, if they don't know about God, against their conscience.

That's a good start toward understanding what "all have sinned" was intended to mean.

Exactly. Now, that is a sensible and realistic approach to this question. Thanks, Jeff.

Billyray

05-06-2013, 03:37 PM

It's not that I don't like it. I don't really care.

I know you don't care, if you really did care about God's word you wouldn't reject it like you have.

Libby

05-06-2013, 03:41 PM

I know you don't care, if you really did care about God's word you wouldn't reject it like you have.

You are very dishonestly twisting my words.

You know very well that I meant, I do not care if babies sin or not. Not that I don't care about proper interpretation of God's Word (which I DO...very much). You need to turn that particular mirror on yourself. I think you are more interested in appearing "right" than you are in proper interpretation of the word.

nrajeffreturns

05-06-2013, 04:27 PM

I know you don't care, if you really did care about God's word you wouldn't reject it like you have.
That is fallacious to accuse her that way. You don't have the authority to say that if a person has a different interpretation of a Bible verse than you do that it means the other person doesn't care about God's word "because if they cared about it they would have an identical interpretation" to yours. That is just lazy, sloppy, arrogant, prejudiced reasoning.

There could easily be people in this world who care as much as, or more than you do about God's word, who reach a different interpretation of it than you do. Their exegetical skills may be inferior to yours, or may be superior to yours. Either way, the fact that they reached a different interpretation of a verse than you did, might have absolutely nothing to do with their degree of care about God's word. What if they are mentally retarded, and therefore struggle with coming to a correct understanding of a verse's intended meaning? Do you really think that means they DON'T CARE about God's word?

Like I said: Flawed reasoning, and insulting to everyone who understands a verse differently from you, regardless whether their interpretation is correct or incorrect.

Libby

05-06-2013, 06:26 PM

He must not be aware that there are tons of Christians out there who interpret those verses slight different than he does. I've linked to at least three of them.

He'll just reject it, because only people who agree with Billy are "true Christians".

Billyray

05-06-2013, 06:38 PM

That is fallacious to accuse her that way. You don't have the authority to say that if a person has a different interpretation of a Bible verse than you do that it means the other person doesn't care about God's word "because if they cared about it they would have an identical interpretation" to yours. That is just lazy, sloppy, arrogant, prejudiced reasoning.

Did you miss her quote?

It's not that I don't like it. I don't really care.

Billyray

05-06-2013, 06:39 PM

He must not be aware that there are tons of Christians out there who interpret those verses slight different than he does. I've linked to at least three of them.

The one quote didn't agree with you and you know it. You seem to have an extreme case of selective reading with your quote and the scriptures.

Repost the other quotes that you are referring to and lets take a look at them.

Billyray

05-06-2013, 06:45 PM

He must not be aware that there are tons of Christians out there who interpret those verses slight different than he does.
Romans 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

Psalm 14:3 They have all turned aside, together they have become corrupt; There is no one who does good, not even one.

Mark 10:18 And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone

Psalm 51:5 Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.

Go ahead and give me your interpretation of the four verses above. (BTW I have given you multiple verses and when I ask you for verses you refuse to do so).

Billyray

05-06-2013, 06:54 PM

Matthew 19:14
14 But Jesus said, “Let the children alone, and do not hinder them from coming to Me; for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.”

Were these special children? Or was he talking about all children?

Matthew 18:3 and said, “Truly I say to you, unless you are converted and become like children, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.
Here are two verses that say nothing about whether or not infants sin. Are these the verses that you are speaking about?

nrajeffreturns

05-07-2013, 11:39 AM

Did you miss her quote?

I didn't miss it. I just realize that it's not God's word that she said she didn't care about.

Billyray

05-07-2013, 01:12 PM

I didn't miss it. I just realize that it's not God's word that she said she didn't care about.

Yet we were disciussing God's word.

Libby

05-07-2013, 01:30 PM

Yet we were disciussing God's word.

Jeff is right, though. I didn't (and wouldn't) say that I don't care about God's word. I was talking about not caring whether or not babies sin.

Looking at my words, I can see how that might have been misconstrued, though.

Billyray

05-07-2013, 01:49 PM

Jeff is right, though. I didn't (and wouldn't) say that I don't care about God's word. I was talking about not caring whether or not babies sin.

But this is a Biblical topic that revolves around multiple verses that say we all sin, verses that you and Jeff are denying.

Libby

05-07-2013, 02:04 PM

But this is a Biblical topic that revolves around multiple verses that say we all sin, verses that you and Jeff are denying.

I'm not denying it, Billy. I know that we all sin. But, saying that a new born commits personal sin just flies in the face of any sense of logic....which is why I have to conclude that those verses are somewhat figurative.

I do believe babies are born with a sin nature, though, that reveals itself fairly quickly...long before they are accountable.

I think we have all had our say on this issue and I would really like to put it to rest. Our differences are minute, really, and not worth all of this effort, IMO.

nrajeffreturns

05-07-2013, 03:26 PM

Romans 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
Psalm 14:3 They have all turned aside, together they have become corrupt; There is no one who does good, not even one.
Mark 10:18 And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone
Psalm 51:5 Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.

When Jesus tells you "Well done, you GOOD and faithful servant" are you gonna tell Him that He's wrong because the Bible says that no one is good?"
And what about the places where the Bible mentions people who were righteous, and where it says that only the righteous will enter the kingdom of God?

"you ignore scripture, you throw out sections of the Bible that you don't like"

Libby

05-07-2013, 04:02 PM

Righteousness comes from faith.

And, faith, is a gift of God.

"But to him that works not, but believes on him that justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness." Romans 4:5

" "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith - and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God." Ephesians 2:8

Just sayin'...

Billyray

05-07-2013, 04:24 PM

When Jesus tells you "Well done, you GOOD and faithful servant" are you gonna tell Him that He's wrong because the Bible says that no one is good?"
And what about the places where the Bible mentions people who were righteous, and where it says that only the righteous will enter the kingdom of God?

"you ignore scripture, you throw out sections of the Bible that you don't like"
Mark 10:18 And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone

Can you tell me who is good according to Jesus?

nrajeffreturns

05-07-2013, 06:58 PM

Mark 10:18 And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone

Can you tell me who is good according to Jesus?

Sure: Every person who He will tell "Well done, thou good and faithful servant."

Billyray

05-07-2013, 07:02 PM

Sure: Every person who He will tell "Well done, thou good and faithful servant."
Mark 10:18 And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone

Who is good according to Jesus in verse 18?

nrajeffreturns

05-08-2013, 05:23 AM

Mark 10:18 And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone
Who is good according to Jesus in verse 18?
So you had to change the question?

Genesis 1:31
God saw all that He had made, and behold, it was very good.
What did God say in v. 31 about everything He created?

Billyray

05-08-2013, 12:11 PM

So you had to change the question?

You never answered my question.

Mark 10:18 And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone
Who is good according to Jesus in verse 18?

Billyray

05-08-2013, 12:22 PM

So you had to change the question?

Genesis 1:31
God saw all that He had made, and behold, it was very good.
What did God say in v. 31 about everything He created?
He said it was very good.

Now let me ask you is this verse before of after the fall?

nrajeffreturns

05-08-2013, 12:30 PM

You never answered my question.
Yes I did. Your earlier question was "Who is good according to Jesus?"

And I answered: Every person who He will tell "Well done, thou good and faithful servant" meets the definition of good. Do you disagree with Jesus?

nrajeffreturns

05-08-2013, 12:32 PM

He said it was very good.

Now let me ask you is this verse before of after the fall?
After. So God makes things very good but doesn't keep them that way? Can't there be good people even after the fall?

Billyray

05-08-2013, 03:34 PM

After.
Genesis 1:31
God saw all that He had made, and behold, it was very good.
What did God say in v. 31 about everything He created?

This verse is AFTER the fall of Adam?

alanmolstad

05-08-2013, 07:04 PM

"After"???

Boy that's a new one on me...

alanmolstad

05-08-2013, 07:06 PM

Yes I did. Your earlier question was "Who is good according to Jesus?"

And I answered: Every person who He will tell "Well done, thou good and faithful servant" meets the definition of good. Do you disagree with Jesus?

Jesus said none but God was good...do you disagree now?

You now claim to be also just as good as Jesus claimed only God is?

nrajeffreturns

05-08-2013, 08:33 PM

This verse is AFTER the fall of Adam?
Oops. No. Sorry, I meant your NT proof text occurred after the fall.

nrajeffreturns

05-08-2013, 08:35 PM

Jesus said none but God was good...do you disagree now?
Do you disagree that Jesus will call you good?

You now claim to be also just as good as Jesus claimed only God is?
No, not AS good, silly.

alanmolstad

05-09-2013, 01:04 AM

Do you disagree that Jesus will call you good?

No, not AS good, silly.

"Will call"?

I can only say what Jesus DID CALL....
and I see none yet here that can change what he taught...

Unless you have more authority than God?

alanmolstad

05-09-2013, 01:16 AM

So genesis has God calling something "good" after the fall?

Did you catch that point Billy?...because that's a new one on me!....
I best go open my Bible to confirm thisn new mormon teaching....

dberrie2000

05-09-2013, 04:06 AM

Jesus said none but God was good...do you disagree now?

Was that a reference to Jesus' God?

nrajeffreturns

05-09-2013, 05:14 AM

"Will call"?

Matt. 25:21 His lord said unto him, ‘Well done, thou good and faithful servant."
Unless you have more authority than Jesus?

Besides, don't you believe that your salvation isn't something that WILL happen in the future, because it's an event that has already occurred in the past?

dberrie2000

05-09-2013, 06:01 AM

Matt. 25:21 His lord said unto him, ‘Well done, thou good and faithful servant."
Unless you have more authority than Jesus?

Besides, don't you believe that your salvation isn't something that WILL happen in the future, because it's an event that has already occurred in the past?

And once-saved-always-saved to that, as a rule. The scriptures state we receive the promise of eternal life here:

1 John 2:25---King James Version (KJV)

25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.

And this promise is conditional:

Hebrews 10:36---King James Version (KJV)

36 For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.

Billyray

05-09-2013, 09:55 AM

And once-saved-always-saved to that, as a rule. The scriptures state we receive the promise of eternal life here. . .And this promise is conditional:

If salvation is by faith and not works why on earth do you say that a person must add works for salvation?

nrajeffreturns

05-09-2013, 03:15 PM

If salvation is by faith and not works why on earth do you say that a person must add works for salvation?

You must obey God's will to get salvation. He wants you to have faith in Christ, repent of your sins, be baptized, and then walk the path of a disciple, the path that leads to eternal life. None of that adds works for salvation. It's all just part of being obedient, and the disobedient shall not get eternal life. Just ask Satan.

Billyray

05-09-2013, 05:56 PM

You must obey God's will to get salvation.

That is why we say that Mormonism is a works based salvation.

dberrie2000

05-11-2013, 04:13 AM

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns View Post--You must obey God's will to get salvation.

That is why we say that Mormonism is a works based salvation.

Does that include the Biblical record also?

Hebrews 5:9 (King James Version)

9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

dberrie2000

05-11-2013, 04:15 AM

If salvation is by faith and not works why on earth do you say that a person must add works for salvation?

Salvation is by God's grace--not by faith. I add works to faith so it won't be a dead faith:

James 2:20 (King James Version)

20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

Billyray

05-11-2013, 11:13 AM

Salvation is by God's grace--not by faith. I add works to faith so it won't be a dead faith:

God gives his grace in many ways to both believers and unbelievers. We are saved when we put out trust (faith) in Christ to save us. Works do not contribute to salvation. BTW dead faith = no faith.

alanmolstad

01-27-2014, 11:52 AM

works do not save....

The only thing that is called a "work" is that we "Believe" in God's only son.

All the other works that I do are off-shoots of this one true "work" and that is my faith.

So the works that I "do" are to confirm my faith.
No works show us that there is a dead faith that is useless to others.

I living faith will produce works.

alanmolstad

01-27-2014, 11:59 AM

"Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good--except God alone

alanmolstad

01-29-2015, 11:05 PM

If salvation is by faith and not works why on earth do you say that a person must add works for salvation?

Works don't add to anything. ..they confirm

alanmolstad

02-11-2016, 07:11 AM

Works don't add to anything. ..they confirm
a lot of CULTS and a lot of believers still try to slide works into helping us get saved.....

They are in error.

Works dont save....

Works confirm you are saved....

This is because the world cant see into your heart, the world cant tell by looking at your heart if you are saved...
But the world can look at your actions, words and deeds....and from these things the world can learn if you are walking the Christian walk...

So my works do not make me saved.
But my works do show Im saved.

if I have no works to be seen, it shows you that I have a faith that is moot to my life (ie dead faith)

But ifI have works, then I dont need to try to prove to you Im saved, you can see in my works that I am saved.