was lucifer created evil? [Archive] - Walter Martin Ministries Forum

Bat-Man

11-10-2009, 11:02 AM

If you take the mainstream Christian faith seriously and then follow it to its logical conclusion, He had to have.
He had to have ?

God had to infuse Satan with his particular appe***es, p***ions, and desires that guided his own free will?

God had to have created Satan with a desire to be evil ?

Heh, there you go again, stem, misunderstanding mainstream Christian beliefs.

Mainstream Christians believe that when God created Satan, orginally, Satan was good, and they believe Satan later became evil because God gave Satan the power to choose to be either good or evil, and Satan chose to be evil.

God didn't give Satan his particular appe***e for evil, or his p***ions for evil, or his desires that guided his own free will choice to do things contrary to the will of God. That was all Satan's doing, with God simply giving Satan the power to choose to be however he wanted to be, including the power to become evil if Satan really wanted to become evil, which he did.

... and yes, stem, what I am saying is what mainstream Christians really believe, on this issue, as well as what we (LDS) believe, on this issue.

God created Lucifer out of nothing and knew what Lucifer would become, if not already evil when first created. He didn't have to create a wholly evil creature, afterall.
Right. All God had to do was give Satan the power to choose to become evil, if he wanted to be evil, and he also gave all of us that same kind of power.

nrajeff

11-10-2009, 01:40 PM

God didn't give Satan his particular appe***e for evil, or his p***ions for evil, or his desires that guided his own free will choice to do things contrary to the will of God.

---So Satan was the ORIGINATOR of all the evil that came into being in the universe? Satan was an uncaused cause of something? I thought Reformationists believe that the ONLY uncaused cause of ANYTHING is GOD.

That was all Satan's doing, with God simply giving Satan the power to choose to be however he wanted to be, including the power to become evil if Satan really wanted to become evil, which he did.
---Do Reformationists believe that God's creations have the power to change the outcome of God's intended agenda? Do God's creations have veto power over the decrees of a deity who is defined as being omnipotent? If Satan decided to stop being the "very good" creation that God originally created him to be, then did God REALLY intend for Satan to be and remain good? But Satan frustrated God's intended plan?

MacG

11-10-2009, 01:51 PM

Let's consider this question in light of the mainstream concept of creation. Was Lucifer created by God, out of nothing, to do good or evil?

To do good. You in the image of God would create a child to do evil?

Was Lucifer immediately after creation good?

Yes.

If so when, specifically, did he become evil?

No chronology but this is when I believe we believe it happened:

IS14:13 You said in your heart,
"I will ascend to heaven;
I will raise my throne
above the stars of God;
I will sit enthroned on the mount of ***embly,
on the utmost heights of the sacred mountain.

I will ascend above the tops of the clouds;
I will make myself like the Most High."
"Nevertheless you will be thrust down to Sheol,
To the recesses of the pit

The other part of this is, why are we all created, according to the mainstream Christian religion, at birth?

Why? Don't rightly know but suspect it has to do with verses like this that describe how we are taken from the womb, how we were known in the womb, relationship in the womb as it were but really not before, Psalm 71:
6By You I have been sustained from my birth;
You are He who took me from my mother's womb;
My praise is continually of You.

That is both our spirits and our physical bodies, but Lucifer was created only as spirit?

Lucifer was an angel - a ministering spirit as it were. Why God made two kinds of life with personalities that are accountable and subject to judgment I do not not know. Neither is it a salvation issue.

Why did God decide to create those who would only be spirits and those who would have physical bodies and spirit bodies?

Spirits do not have bodies Luke 24:38 And He said to them, "Why are you troubled, and why do doubts arise in your hearts?

"See My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself; touch Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have."

And when He had said this, He showed them His hands and His feet.

Looking forward to an enlightening discussion on the topic.

love,
stem

That should get 'er started. :)

In Him and In Love,

MacG

Bat-Man

11-10-2009, 01:54 PM

---So Satan was the ORIGINATOR of all the evil that came into being in the universe?
In their perspective, yes.

In their perspective, Satan was the very first person God created who chose to become evil, after God had created him as a good person, and ever since Satan became evil Satan has been trying to get other people to be evil, too.

That is what mainstream Christians believe, collectively, jeff.

Of course, we (LDS) know that Satan wasn't the very first person who became evil, because there was no FIRST evil person, just as there was no FIRST good person, in the eternal perspective, but we're not talking about what we (LDS) believe now, are we.

---Do Reformationists believe that God's creations have the power to change the outcome of God's intended agenda?
No.

They believe Satan wins a few battles, sometimes, but God will win the war in the end.

Do God's creations have veto power over the decrees of a deity who is defined as being omnipotent?
No, not in their perspective.

They do believe we have the power to choose to do evil, if we want to, but they believe God's decrees always remain in force, even then, and that at some point those who choose to do evil will be punished for their evil actions.

If Satan decided to stop being the "very good" creation that God originally created him to be, then did God REALLY intend for Satan to be and remain good?
Yes, and Satan chose and still chooses to be evil, anyway.

But Satan frustrated God's intended plan?
No, not really.

Satan wins a few battles, sometimes, but God will win the war in the end.

stemelbow

11-10-2009, 01:56 PM

He had to have ?

God had to infuse Satan with his particular appe***es, p***ions, and desires that guided his own free will?

God had to have created Satan with a desire to be evil ?

Heh, there you go again, stem, misunderstanding mainstream Christian beliefs.

I said God had to have created lucifer out of nothing to be what he was. How else did he become what he is without God first conceiving of how Lucifer would turn out? Its teh same for you Batman, God had to have created you with the particular appe***es and p***ions that influence the way you will eventually turn out, all according to the logical conclusions of their beliefs.

Mainstream Christians believe that when God created Satan, orginally, Satan was good, and they believe Satan later became evil because God gave Satan the power to choose to be either good or evil, and Satan chose to be evil.

I'm asking when he became evil. What caused him to become evil.

God didn't give Satan his particular appe***e for evil, or his p***ions for evil, or his desires that guided his own free will choice to do things contrary to the will of God. That was all Satan's doing, with God simply giving Satan the power to choose to be however he wanted to be, including the power to become evil if Satan really wanted to become evil, which he did.

... and yes, stem, what I am saying is what mainstream Christians really believe, on this issue, as well as what we (LDS) believe, on this issue.

Right. All God had to do was give Satan the power to choose to become evil, if he wanted to be evil, and he also gave all of us that same kind of power.

But you seem to be misunderstanding the main thrust of my argument. God conceived of what satan would become long before he created him out of nothing, right? Or would you say mainstream christians would deny this?

love,
stem

stemelbow

11-10-2009, 01:58 PM

In their perspective, yes.

In their perspective, Satan was the very first person God created who chose to become evil, after God had created him as a good person, and ever since Satan became evil Satan has been trying to get other people to be evil, too.

That is what mainstream Christians believe, collectively, jeff.

Of course, we (LDS) know that Satan wasn't the very first person who became evil, because there was no FIRST evil person, just as there was no FIRST good person, in the eternal perspective, but we're not talking about what we (LDS) believe now, are we.

But satan only became what God initially thought of what he would become. God created him out of nothing, Batman. If God knew satan would choose evil, then by creating him, he also knew what particular qualities satan needed to become evil.

love,
stem

stemelbow

11-10-2009, 02:03 PM

To do good.

How do you know that?

You in the image of God would create a child to do evil?

Me? No. I don't believe in creation ex nihilo.

Yes.

Again how do you know that?

No chronology but this is when I believe we believe it happened:

IS14:13 You said in your heart,
"I will ascend to heaven;
I will raise my throne
above the stars of God;
I will sit enthroned on the mount of ***embly,
on the utmost heights of the sacred mountain.

I will ascend above the tops of the clouds;
I will make myself like the Most High."
"Nevertheless you will be thrust down to Sheol,
To the recesses of the pit

But when was this? Was it after God created Him? Was it after God created the earth?

Why? Don't rightly know but suspect it has to do with verses like this that describe how we are taken from the womb, how we were known in the womb, relationship in the womb as it were but really not before, Psalm 71:
6By You I have been sustained from my birth;
You are He who took me from my mother's womb;
My praise is continually of You.

Can you clarify? I ahve no idea how this answers my question.

Lucifer was an angel - a ministering spirit as it were. Why God made two kinds of life with personalities that are accountable and subject to judgment I do not not know. Neither is it a salvation issue.

How do you know this?

Spirits do not have bodies Luke 24:38 And He said to them, "Why are you troubled, and why do doubts arise in your hearts?

"See My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself; touch Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have."

And when He had said this, He showed them His hands and His feet.

So we do not have spirits? Are we not both spirit and body?

love,
stem

Bat-Man

11-10-2009, 02:10 PM

I said God had to have created lucifer out of nothing to be what he was.
Are you still trying to p*** off what you're saying as what mainstream Christians believe, stem, or is that what you believe we (LDS) believe ?

I'm getting confused here.

SOMEBODY help me !!!

AAAAaaaaaahhhhhh !!!

How else did he become what he is without God first conceiving of how Lucifer would turn out?
You really don't understand the kind of power God gave to us, do you, stem.

God created all of us to be good, and all of us were good when God created us.

God then said something like:

Okay, now. Go ahead and do whatever you want to do.

... while also telling us what he wanted us to do.

Sometime soon after that point we then had a choice.

Do it God's way, or do it some other way.

Satan chose some other way, stem.

Evil is the opposite of God's way.

Its the same for you Batman, God had to have created you with the particular appe***es and p***ions that influence the way you will eventually turn out, all according to the logical conclusions of their beliefs.
No, stem. You still just don't get it.

I'm asking when he became evil. What caused him to become evil.
He became evil when he chose to do the opposite of God's will.

That's both when and what caused him to become evil, stem.

For crying out loud, try acting like you know what evil is.

But you seem to be misunderstanding the main thrust of my argument. God conceived of what satan would become long before he created him out of nothing, right? Or would you say mainstream christians would deny this?
I'll say it like this, this time.

God knew all of the possible choices that any person he created could make.

He knew it all, stem, and he still knows everything.

God knew that if someone who he created didn't do things God's way, that person would do things some other way, which wasn't God's way, and God knew about all of the other possible choices that a person could possibly make, including what a person would be like if he became his total opposite.

stemelbow

11-10-2009, 02:22 PM

Are you still trying to p*** off what you're saying as what mainstream Christians believe, stem, or is that what you believe we (LDS) believe ?

I am suggesting that according to the logical conclusions of their beliefs.

You really don't understand the kind of power God gave to us, do you, stem.

I do. What I don't get is how someone can believe the mainstream Christian dogma and be comfortable with how ultimately awful it is.

He became evil when he chose to do the opposite of God's will.

That's both when and what caused him to become evil, stem.

But, according to their beliefs, or at least the logical conclusion of their beliefs, God created satan knowing how.when and under what circumstances satan would become evil. Since God created satan out of nothing, He created every single individual choice that makes satan unique. It surely has to be that way, according to the logical conclusions of their beliefs.

I'll say it like this, this time.

God knew all of the possible choices that any person he created could make.

He knew it all, stem, and he still knows everything.

God knew that if someone who he created didn't do things God's way, that person would do things some other way, which wasn't God's way, and God knew about all of the other possible choices that a person could possibly make, including what a person would be like if he became his total opposite.

But there's something about this your leaving off or not considering. God created each person, including satan, out of nothing. He knew before actually coming up with the idea of a satan what satan would be. Therefore it stands to reason that satan only became evil because God created him to be that way or to turn out that way.

love,
stem

Bat-Man

11-10-2009, 02:36 PM

Since God created satan out of nothing, He created every single individual choice that makes satan unique. It surely has to be that way, according to the logical conclusions of their beliefs.
Try looking at it this way, stem.

It's either God's way, or nothing.

That's not totally true, but equating evil with nothing may help you a little.

Try thinking of EVIL as basically NOTHING, or an ABSENCE of good.

Evil is basically like darkness, which is an ABSENCE of light.

God doesn't put evil within a person, as if to say, here, have a little of this.

Evil is the result of rejecting God, or what has to offer.

Can you really not relate to what I am saying ???

But there's something about this your leaving off or not considering. God created each person, including satan, out of nothing. He knew before actually coming up with the idea of a satan what satan would be. Therefore it stands to reason that satan only became evil because God created him to be that way or to turn out that way.
No, stem. It really didn't happen that way, in either their mainstream Christian perspective, or our (LDS) perspective.

stemelbow

11-10-2009, 03:00 PM

Thanks for playing, Batman. I get your point. I'll await further discussions with actually mainstream Chrsitians on the matter, since it seems we're jsut talking past each other.

love,
stem

Bat-Man

11-10-2009, 03:08 PM

Thanks for playing, Batman. I get your point.
I see you saying you do, but do you, really ?

I'd like to see some evidence that you really do.

stemelbow

11-10-2009, 03:10 PM

Bat-Man

11-10-2009, 03:21 PM

Same here, batman. Same here. But since we've been trying the past couple of days, I'll concede that we must be talking past each other. With that, I'll let it go and hope for future discussions with real mainstream Christians.

love,
stem
FYI, I never had my named removed from the records of the last church I attended before I became a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, so, technically, I am still on record as a mainstream Christian.

Pretty cool, huh.

stemelbow

11-10-2009, 03:28 PM

Yeah. So when they all complain that LDS are inflating our numbers, they are only whining about that which they do, again.

love,
stem

Bat-Man

11-10-2009, 03:34 PM

Yeah. So when they all complain that LDS are inflating our numbers, they are only whining about that which they do, again.

love,
stem
Yes, but more to the point, I am a real mainstream Christian, as well as a real member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

So, do you have any other questions you'd like to ask a real mainstream Christian ?

James Banta

11-10-2009, 05:31 PM

Yes, but more to the point, I am a real mainstream Christian, as well as a real member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

So, do you have any other questions you'd like to ask a real mainstream Christian ?

Not quite Bat you have told me that you believe the idea that people are becoming divine.. That is NOT mainstream Christianity.. IHS jim

Bat-Man

11-10-2009, 05:47 PM

Not quite Bat you have told me that you believe the idea that people are becoming divine.. That is NOT mainstream Christianity.. IHS jim
I think you're confusing me with someone else, Jim.

I've never told you that people are becoming divine.

All men and women were divine from the first moment of our birth (creation) in heaven, and all that remains for us now is to become like either our Father in heaven, or Satan, or to remain somewhere in between those two extremes.

James Banta

11-10-2009, 09:32 PM

I think you're confusing me with someone else, Jim.

I've never told you that people are becoming divine.

All men and women were divine from the first moment of our birth (creation) in heaven, and all that remains for us now is to become like either our Father in heaven, or Satan, or to remain somewhere in between those two extremes.

This is more like what I would expect from a "good mormon" You just set the scripture behind..

Zech 12:1
The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.

This verse speaks to the creation of the heavens and the earth, and then it says where the spirit of man was created.. WITHIN HIM! If there was no physical body just what is the "within him" within? You can't create the spirit of man within the spirit of man can you? Did man exist physically in the "pre-existence"? What does the Church say is ONE important reason to come to this world? When a baby dies what do the members of the mormon church say was the reason it was born at all? TO GET A BODY!!! Sorry but the Bible makes it clear in this one verse that Mormonism is a false teaching that there was no pre-existence a main doctrinal point of the mormon gospel.. IHS jim

MacG

11-11-2009, 02:37 AM

How do you know that?

The angels are created to be ministering spirits, Hebrews 1:14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent out to render service for the sake of those who will inherit salvation? does not sound like they were created to do evil.

Me? No. I don't believe in creation ex nihilo.

Ah, so where did he get the stuff to do it? Reveation 4:11 "You are worthy, our Lord and God, to receive glory and honor and power, for you created all things, and by your will they were created and have their being."

Again how do you know that?

The angels are created to be ministering spirits. Presumably that is what he did before his ego got the best of him.

But when was this? Was it after God created Him? Was it after God created the earth?

No, I do not know when that happened but before he tempted Eve would be a safe bet.

Can you clarify? I ahve no idea how this answers my question.

Pslam 102:18 Let this be written for a future generation,
that a people not yet created may praise the LORD.

Pslam 139:13
For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb.

How do you know this?

IS14:13 You said in your heart,
"I will ascend to heaven;
I will raise my throne
above the stars of God;
I will sit enthroned on the mount of ***embly,
on the utmost heights of the sacred mountain.

I will ascend above the tops of the clouds;
I will make myself like the Most High."
"Nevertheless you will be thrust down to Sheol,
To the recesses of the pit

So we do not have spirits? Are we not both spirit and body?

Never said we weren't both, where'd that come from?

love,
stem

Blessings,

MacG

stemelbow

11-11-2009, 07:53 AM

The angels are created to be ministering spirits, Hebrews 1:14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent out to render service for the sake of those who will inherit salvation? does not sound like they were created to do evil.

When did the devil act as a ministering spirit? What evidence do you have that he was at one time a ministering spirit?

Ah, so where did he get the stuff to do it? Reveation 4:11 "You are worthy, our Lord and God, to receive glory and honor and power, for you created all things, and by your will they were created and have their being."

Its eternally existing.

The angels are created to be ministering spirits. Presumably that is what he did before his ego got the best of him.

What ministering did he do? If he was at one time a ministering spirit then there must be something saying he ministered at some point. if he did not minister then it seems he never did any good.

No, I do not know when that happened but before he tempted Eve would be a safe bet.

So was that before God created the world/earth?

Pslam 102:18 Let this be written for a future generation,
that a people not yet created may praise the LORD.

Pslam 139:13
For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb.

Okay. I don't see any of this specifically saying that our spirits did not previously exist though.

IS14:13 You said in your heart,
"I will ascend to heaven;
I will raise my throne
above the stars of God;
I will sit enthroned on the mount of ***embly,
on the utmost heights of the sacred mountain.

I will ascend above the tops of the clouds;
I will make myself like the Most High."
"Nevertheless you will be thrust down to Sheol,
To the recesses of the pit

Please realize I accept the Biblical p***ages but i do not read into them your ***umptions. So quoting the p***ages without explanation only helps my case, if you ask me. So I'm asking how do you know that God making two kinds of life and that the devil was made to be a "ministering spirit" are not salvation issues?

And how do you know is not what God created him to be? It seems since God knew he would seek to replace God before creating him out of nothing, long before eve was tempted, it seems, shows that God made him as one destined to do evil for a reason. And that God made him out of nothing, conceiving of hw he would be evil and went ahead and created him to be evil. I see no other conclusion to make, logically speaking. You?

Never said we weren't both, where'd that come from?

I asked why did God create us with spirits and physical bodies and you're answer was saying that spirits do not have bodies. So it came from your attempt at answering my question.

love,
stem

Fig-bearing Thistle

11-11-2009, 10:15 PM

Father_JD

11-11-2009, 11:43 PM

Let's consider this question in light of the mainstream concept of creation. Was Lucifer created by God, out of nothing, to do good or evil?

You already know the answer, stem. WHY are you playing your little Mormon reindeer games? :rolleyes:

Was Lucifer immediately after creation good? If so when, specifically, did he become evil?

You know the answer to this question as well. NO ONE KNOWS WHEN Lucifer rebelled against God...but it's generally ***umed it was BEFORE the creation of the world and all contained thereon.

The other part of this is, why are we all created, according to the mainstream Christian religion, at birth?

Why don't you BELIEVE Gen. 2, stem? The answer you're supposedly looking for is right there and elsewhere IN THE BIBLE.:rolleyes:

That is both our spirits and our physical bodies, but Lucifer was created only as spirit?

The angels are spirit beings, stem. This IS what the Bible teaches ya know? Why do you think it's somehow logically necessary for angels to be created with physical bodies as well as humans? You're Mormon indoctrination is showing, minus any reasoned thinking here. :rolleyes:

Why did God decide to create those who would only be spirits and those who would have physical bodies and spirit bodies?

Because it suited the SOVEREIGN creator of the universe, stem. WHY do you second-guess God Himself? Don't you see you're treading on dangerous ground here??

Looking forward to an enlightening discussion on the topic.

Frankly, I don't think you are at all. :cool:

Sentinus

11-12-2009, 12:24 AM

stemelbow

11-12-2009, 06:37 AM

You already know the answer, stem. WHY are you playing your little Mormon reindeer games? :rolleyes:

So is your answer you don't know?

You know the answer to this question as well. NO ONE KNOWS WHEN Lucifer rebelled against God...but it's generally ***umed it was BEFORE the creation of the world and all contained thereon.

So was Lucifer the first to be created?

Why don't you BELIEVE Gen. 2, stem? The answer you're supposedly looking for is right there and elsewhere IN THE BIBLE.:rolleyes:

I do. Gen. 2 does not answer my question. Can you clarify?

The angels are spirit beings, stem. This IS what the Bible teaches ya know? Why do you think it's somehow logically necessary for angels to be created with physical bodies as well as humans? You're Mormon indoctrination is showing, minus any reasoned thinking here. :rolleyes:

Show me where angels are exclusively spirit? Show me where it tells us that these spirit bodies won't at some future time gain physical bodies.

Because it suited the SOVEREIGN creator of the universe, stem. WHY do you second-guess God Himself? Don't you see you're treading on dangerous ground here??

So its his mystery? THat's the answer?

Frankly, I don't think you are at all. :cool:

Of course you have to ***ume such. It'll be your way out when you religion looks foolish again.

love,
stem

stemelbow

11-12-2009, 06:41 AM

Sentinus

11-12-2009, 11:10 AM

So are you ***uming this particular forum cannot include discussions, from an LDS standpoint, of the beliefs of those who are criticizing LDS? So LDS cannot have a balanced discussion--putting under the microscope the beliefs of those who are criticizing to see if the criticisms of LDS hold up? And is it not discussing LDS beliefs by defining how the criticizers differ in belief, essentially?

I don't know what you're so afriad of. Sounds silly.

When I peak around at the other forums here, it seems rather empty. Why should we not be able to discuss things pertaining to LDS here? Is there somethign to fear?

love,
stem

Yes of course you would see me as "afraid" or having "fear", this would suit you real agenda in posting OP's like the one here. Like I have said feel free to ignore me, but I will not cease my efforts to get LDS posters to stay on topic in THIS forum..

Perhaps you could take the time to rewrite your OP's to contrast the two theologies instead? Then you would be on topic.. IMO of course. :)

Regards,
Sentinus

stemelbow

11-12-2009, 11:19 AM

Sentinus

11-12-2009, 01:26 PM

Fine I'll leave you to your opinion. Surely you'll get some of your co-religionists to jump on board so you all can avoid having to deal with the LDS posts. Many mainstreamers already do avoid our posts, questions, and arguments. NO big difference there.

My agenda is that we ought to have a balanced discussion. I suppose if you're afraid to discuss your own beliefs, like Russell and others here, then it is pretty much in opposition to my agenda.

I hope you come around.

love,
stem

Fine I'll leave you to your opinion.
And I to yours, but do try and stay on topic, please.

Surely you'll get some of your co-religionists to jump on board so you all can avoid having to deal with the LDS posts. Many mainstreamers already do avoid our posts, questions, and arguments. NO big difference there.

I hope they do, but not because of the nefarious reasons you imply here about good, decent people who come here to post about Mormonism. The difference between you and me is that you see this as a fight, and not just an exchange of ideas. Your illogical ***umption that silence equals avoidance of "hard questions" is false. Most people come here to discuss Mormonism and are not interested in debating your misconception regarding "Mainstream Christianity". So they just ignore them. Hence my reasoning for speaking up. Silence seems to only reinforce your beliefs and this is counterproductive to the intent of most Non LDS posters who are posting here. In essence I believe I am pointing out the Elephant in the room, nothing more.

My agenda is that we ought to have a balanced discussion. .

Then do so by including the LDS perspective and doctrine that you believe refutes and or supports your ascertations regarding "Mainstream Christian" thought.

I suppose if you're afraid to discuss your own beliefs, like Russell and others here, then it is pretty much in opposition to my agenda.

More fallacious and illogical conclusions. You now equate silence to "fear", this type of at***ude regarding those you hopefully hope to serve and educate is clearly counterproductive to building bridges of communication and tolerance. Most posters here come here to discuss Mormonism NOT your personal misconceptions of "Mainstream Christian" thought. You must ***ume the best in people you wish to serve, and love those that you believe are your enemy. And of course as many LDS people have so often said go to the appropriate source for information.

I hope you come around.

As do I.

Regards,
Sentinus

Father_JD

11-12-2009, 01:38 PM

Originally Posted by Father_JD
You already know the answer, stem. WHY are you playing your little Mormon reindeer games?

So is your answer you don't know?

Hardly. You know full well that God created Lucifer to do GOOD. So why the little Mormon reindeer game as if you don't know the answer? :eek:

Quote:
You know the answer to this question as well. NO ONE KNOWS WHEN Lucifer rebelled against God...but it's generally ***umed it was BEFORE the creation of the world and all contained thereon.

So was Lucifer the first to be created?

No one knows. The Bible doesn't give an answer for your "poser". And don't think for one second your phoni-Moroni-latter-day-revelation knows any better. :rolleyes:

Quote:
Why don't you BELIEVE Gen. 2, stem? The answer you're supposedly looking for is right there and elsewhere IN THE BIBLE.

I do. Gen. 2 does not answer my question. Can you clarify?

It does answer your question. You just don't like the answer: Man's body and spirit/soul were CO-CREATED.

Quote:
The angels are spirit beings, stem. This IS what the Bible teaches ya know? Why do you think it's somehow logically necessary for angels to be created with physical bodies as well as humans? Your Mormon indoctrination is showing, minus any reasoned thinking here.

Show me where angels are exclusively spirit? Show me where it tells us that these spirit bodies won't at some future time gain physical bodies.

I can't prove a negative, stem. Why don't you furnish us with just one exception where an angel was FLESH AND BONE, huh? Hebrews 1 is clear: Angels are SPIRITS just as God the Father Himself is SPIRIT.

Quote:
Because it suited the SOVEREIGN creator of the universe, stem. WHY do you second-guess God Himself? Don't you see you're treading on dangerous ground here??

So its his mystery? THat's the answer?

No, it's not properly labeled as a "mystery", whereas the Incarnation IS. The answer? GOD CHOSE NOT TO. Why is that so hard for Mormons to understand, stem? Is it because you know you can't reconcile Mormon beliefs with the Bible? :eek:

Quote:
Frankly, I don't think you are at all.

Of course you have to ***ume such. It'll be your way out when you religion looks foolish again.

Ri-i-i-i-i-ight. I'm not the one who "sustains" as a "prophet" a two-bit con man who buried his face in his hat with his magic rock, stem. :D

stemelbow

11-12-2009, 03:12 PM

Originally Posted by Father_JD
Hardly. You know full well that God created Lucifer to do GOOD. So why the little Mormon reindeer game as if you don't know the answer? :eek:

What good did he do, JD?

No one knows. The Bible doesn't give an answer for your "poser". And don't think for one second your phoni-Moroni-latter-day-revelation knows any better. :rolleyes:

Surely my beliefs are different. We don't accept creation ex nihilo JD.

It does answer your question. You just don't like the answer: Man's body and spirit/soul were CO-CREATED.

Co-created? What's that mean? created together? That's not what Gen. 2 says.

I can't prove a negative, stem. Why don't you furnish us with just one exception where an angel was FLESH AND BONE, huh? Hebrews 1 is clear: Angels are SPIRITS just as God the Father Himself is SPIRIT.

Well of course angels have spirits, but so do you JD...so does Jesus too.

No, it's not properly labeled as a "mystery", whereas the Incarnation IS. The answer? GOD CHOSE NOT TO. Why is that so hard for Mormons to understand, stem? Is it because you know you can't reconcile Mormon beliefs with the Bible? :eek:

But why did God choose not to? i guess mystery won't work for you, so what word would you prefer?

Ri-i-i-i-i-ight. I'm not the one who "sustains" as a "prophet" a two-bit con man who buried his face in his hat with his magic rock, stem. :D

no kdding, your's is the religion in which god himself is the one who caused the downfall of his own creations by conceiving of the occurance long before He created. the one in which lucifer, though, created supposedly "good" because evil long before he created the earth.

love,
stem

nrajeff

11-12-2009, 03:44 PM

Hardly. You know full well that God created Lucifer to do GOOD.
--Then here is another poser for ya FJD: What is God's track record like, in the "Created to be good and REMAINED good" department? What percentage of the things God created, declared to be good, and intended to STAY good, actually DID stay good?

Man's body and spirit/soul were CO-CREATED.
--Simultaneously? Ex nihilo? Do you believe that God is not finished creating, then? And which person of the Trinity is doing this ongoing creating? Your buddies say that it's JESUS who created everything that has been or ever will be created. Are your buddies correct? Or do they have a false theology?

The angels are spirit beings, stem.
--But spirits are invisible, according you guys. Yet people have seen angels. How does that work?

I'm not the one who "sustains" as a "prophet" a two-bit con man who buried his face in his hat with his magic rock, stem.
---How does one plagiarize hundreds of pages of text while one is in a dark room with one's eyes covered? Name ONE other time that feat has been accomplished, if you think Smith was just a common (you said "two-bit") con man.

Father_JD

11-12-2009, 10:45 PM

Originally Posted by Father_JD
Hardly. You know full well that God created Lucifer to do GOOD.

--Then here is another poser for ya FJD: What is God's track record like, in the "Created to be good and REMAINED good" department?...

ALL of the angels who refused to follow after Satan's rebellion.

What percentage of the things God created, declared to be good, and intended to STAY good, actually DID stay good?

There are infinitely MORE angels created than humans (check the descriptions of the vast numbers of them as listed in the Bible), so the greatest majority actually DID stay good, jeff. ;)

Quote:
Man's body and spirit/soul were CO-CREATED.

--Simultaneously? Ex nihilo? Do you believe that God is not finished creating, then? And which person of the Trinity is doing this ongoing creating? Your buddies say that it's JESUS who created everything that has been or ever will be created. Are your buddies correct? Or do they have a false theology?

Interesting SPECULATIONS, jeff. Have you come to the number of angels who can dance on the head of a pin yet? :rolleyes:

Quote:
The angels are spirit beings, stem.

--But spirits are invisible, according you guys. Yet people have seen angels. How does that work?

They are by NATURE, invisible, yes. I don't know "how it works" that human eyes have sometimes beheld them, jeff. Maybe ya gotta ask God in prayer so you can get a warm-fuzzy as to "how"! :D

Quote:
I'm not the one who "sustains" as a "prophet" a two-bit con man who buried his face in his hat with his magic rock, stem.

---How does one plagiarize hundreds of pages of text while one is in a dark room with one's eyes covered? Name ONE other time that feat has been accomplished, if you think Smith was just a common (you said "two-bit") con man.

Pffft. Apparently you've never talked to Muslims, have you Jeff? Their big "apologetic" that Mohammed couldn't have written the Koran was because he was pretty much illiterate and the Koran was written in beautiful Arabic.

Sound familiar NOW?? Oddly reminiscent of Mormon claims for the poorly-educated Joseph Smith, huh? :rolleyes:

nrajeff

11-13-2009, 12:11 PM

ALL of the angels who refused to follow after Satan's rebellion.
---So that is your answer to the question about God's track record---67% of the angels stayed good, and ZERO % of us mortal humans did, right? What grade does earn God? In the angels dept., a C. In the humans dept., an F.

There are infinitely MORE angels created than humans (check the descriptions of the vast numbers of them as listed in the Bible), so the greatest majority actually DID stay good, jeff. ;)
---Whatever the total number is, only 2/3 of them stayed good, right? Resulting in a C grade. Mediocre.

Interesting SPECULATIONS, jeff.
---Yeah, YOUR speculation that a person's spirit is created at the same moment his/her body is created....that speculation is interesting. And incorrect.

They are by NATURE, invisible, yes. I don't know "how it works" that human eyes have sometimes beheld them, jeff. Maybe ya gotta ask God in prayer so you can get a warm-fuzzy as to "how"! :D
---Dang, I thought that going to Evangelical Seminary for 3 years might provide me with the answer.

Pffft. Apparently you've never talked to Muslims, have you Jeff?
---I have listened to Pres. Obama. Does that count?

Their big "apologetic" that Mohammed couldn't have written the Koran was because he was pretty much illiterate and the Koran was written in beautiful Arabic.
---Apples and oranges comparison. It's YOUR claim that Smith dictated 400 pages of text while in a dark room, his face buried in a hat the whole time....and that the resulting 400 pages are actually PLAGIARIZED material. So who ELSE has done that? How "2-bit" IS such a feat, really?

Father_JD

11-13-2009, 01:49 PM

I thought you believed in "Free Agency", jeff?? What happened? It's Mormon belief that Lucifer, the angels who rebelled, ALL had the capacity to do what they did because of FREE AGENCY, so why do you continue to belabor this point about God's supposed "track record"??

Where does that leave the Mormon deity who's a helpless schmuck?

Father_JD

11-13-2009, 01:57 PM

Originally Posted by Father_JD
Hardly. You know full well that God created Lucifer to do GOOD. So why the little Mormon reindeer game as if you don't know the answer?

What good did he do, JD?

He was in charge of the musical worship of God in Heaven. Your biblical ignorance is showing. I guess you didn't know that his name meant, "Light-Bearer" either, meaning he was perhaps the most beautiful of God's angelic creation??

Quote:
No one knows. The Bible doesn't give an answer for your "poser". And don't think for one second your phoni-Moroni-latter-day-revelation knows any better.

Surely my beliefs are different. We don't accept creation ex nihilo JD.

I'm sorry your weak godlet you esteem as "God", can only work with eternal "pre-existent matter", which MEANS MATTER IS AS ETERNAL AS HE IS. Nevermind that's illogical....you believe it 'cause LD$, Inc tells you to believe that.

Quote:
It does answer your question. You just don't like the answer: Man's body and spirit/soul were CO-CREATED.

Co-created? What's that mean? created together? That's not what Gen. 2 says.

No, in fact Gen. 2 completely CONTRADICTS the Mormon belief of "eternal spirit children" being given fleshy tabernacles, doesn't it? :rolleyes:

Quote:
I can't prove a negative, stem. Why don't you furnish us with just one exception where an angel was FLESH AND BONE, huh? Hebrews 1 is clear: Angels are SPIRITS just as God the Father Himself is SPIRIT.

Well of course angels have spirits, but so do you JD...so does Jesus too.

That's NOT what the Bible teaches and you're yet again guilty of foisting Mormon belief over the Biblcal text. Like I said, furnish ONE example where Angels have FLESH AND BONE, ok? Either put up or shut up, stem. :eek:

Quote:
No, it's not properly labeled as a "mystery", whereas the Incarnation IS. The answer? GOD CHOSE NOT TO. Why is that so hard for Mormons to understand, stem? Is it because you know you can't reconcile Mormon beliefs with the Bible?

But why did God choose not to? i guess mystery won't work for you, so what word would you prefer?

Only GOD KNOWS, stem. "Mystery" doesn't work because it isn't a mystery: God created angels and spirit beings, He created humans as flesh and spirit. It's REALLY that simple when one isn't trying to reconcile Mormon dogma with the Bible. :rolleyes:

Quote:
Ri-i-i-i-i-ight. I'm not the one who "sustains" as a "prophet" a two-bit con man who buried his face in his hat with his magic rock, stem.

no kdding, your's is the religion in which god himself is the one who caused the downfall of his own creations by conceiving of the occurance long before He created. the one in which lucifer, though, created supposedly "good" because evil long before he created the earth.

I keep tellin' you, stem. God did NOT cause the downfall. Adam did it all by his little lonesome with Eve. Obviously you're only capable of STRAW-MAN illustrations. :(

stemelbow

11-13-2009, 02:25 PM

He was in charge of the musical worship of God in Heaven. Your biblical ignorance is showing. I guess you didn't know that his name meant, "Light-Bearer" either, meaning he was perhaps the most beautiful of God's angelic creation?

What? He's got a good voice? There must be something to the idea that britney spears and them other annoying singers are the devil then, huh?

And yowza to the beautiful comment. The beauty of a male spirit, huh? Is there beauty also in a female spirit?

I'm sorry your weak godlet you esteem as "God", can only work with eternal "pre-existent matter", which MEANS MATTER IS AS ETERNAL AS HE IS. Nevermind that's illogical....you believe it 'cause LD$, Inc tells you to believe that.

No need to apologize...I ***ure you accepting the LDS concept of God is much sweeter than accepting the mainstream concept of God. You're in the bad spot in terms of who's God is better.

No, in fact Gen. 2 completely CONTRADICTS the Mormon belief of "eternal spirit children" being given fleshy tabernacles, doesn't it? :rolleyes:

No. Quite the opposite. But your reading into the text has to sound a little interesting if you'd care to 'splain.

That's NOT what the Bible teaches and you're yet again guilty of foisting Mormon belief over the Biblcal text. Like I said, furnish ONE example where Angels have FLESH AND BONE, ok? Either put up or shut up, stem. :eek:

ooohhhh...another of those efforts to intimidate LDS to stop talking, huh, JD? Here are Harnack's words on the topic, JD:

"It (the spirit of a man) has a real being...It exists beforehand with God in the same way as it appears on earth, that is with all the material attributes belonging to its essence. Its manifestation on earth is merely a transition from concealment to publicity." Harnack History of Dogma, 1:318-19

The spirit of man then existed prior to mortal bodies which housed those spirits. My questions were trying to figure out your belief...not so much whether you can prove me wrong or whatever.

Only GOD KNOWS, stem. "Mystery" doesn't work because it isn't a mystery: God created angels and spirit beings, He created humans as flesh and spirit. It's REALLY that simple when one isn't trying to reconcile Mormon dogma with the Bible. :rolleyes:

No prob. You don't know then.

I keep tellin' you, stem. God did NOT cause the downfall. Adam did it all by his little lonesome with Eve. Obviously you're only capable of STRAW-MAN illustrations. :(

I'm capable of more than just strawmen, JD. I just need you to 'splain how you get away from the idea that God caused the downfall while addressing my logic. Here ya go:

If God created ex nihilo...God knew before anything was created what was going to be the outcome of his creations. He knew exactly what choices adam and eve would make before creating them. He knew satan would, if not already bad, turn bad and attempt ruin his plans. ya with me, cause its going to get a little trickier for you to comprehend?

It goes deeper. Remember God was all there was before creating. He conceived of every action that each of his creations would do before creating, right? Its more than just that He knew Eve would succumb to temptation and partake, but he conceived of it. Eve would not have succumbed if God did not conceive of the occurence before she was created out of nothing. He certainly could have conceived that Eve would not succumb to the temptation, right? I mean if He before creating out of nothing designed Eve, out of nothing, to not succumb at that moment, then the fall woudl not have happened. And, according to your beliefs, He could have done just that. He could have conceived of designing her different than he did. He could have made her to ignore satan if He wanted. But he didn't. Thus, it must be that he chose the fall before anything ever was created. There really is no other conclusion to draw, JD, if ya think about it.

love,
stem

Father_JD

11-13-2009, 02:55 PM

Same ol' balderdash from you, stemster. I'd like you to place IN CONTEXT your little snippet from Harnack. This I gotta see...just how Mormons have convoluted what he said just like you convolute everything else in desperate trys to make others somehow support Mormon ***ertions.

The Bible does NOT teach the pre-existence of HUMAN BEINGS and that's CLEAR from Gen. 2. Adam BECAME a LIVING SOUL at the time of the creation of his body.

So here's your citation and your comment:

"It (the spirit of a man) has a real being...It exists beforehand with God in the same way as it appears on earth, that is with all the material attributes belonging to its essence. Its manifestation on earth is merely a transition from concealment to publicity." Harnack History of Dogma, 1:318-19

The spirit of man then existed prior to mortal bodies which housed those spirits. My questions were trying to figure out your belief...not so much whether you can prove me wrong or whatever.

Shall we see just how dishonest your citation from Harnack was, stem?

On the Conception of Pre-existence.

On account of the importance of the question, we may be here permitted to amplify a few hints given in Chap. II., § 4, and elsewhere, and to draw a clearer distinction between the Jewish and Hellenic conceptions of pre-existence.

According to the theory held by the ancient Jews and by the whole of the Semitic nations, everything of real value that from time to time appears on earth has its existence in heaven. In other words, it exists with God, that is God possesses a knowledge of it; and for that reason it has a real being. But it exists beforehand with God in the same way as it appears on earth, that is with all the material attributes belonging to its essence. Its manifestation on earth is merely a transition from concealment to publicity (φανεροῦσθαι). In becoming visible to the senses, the object in question ***umes no attribute that it did not already possess with God. Hence its material nature is by no means an inadequate expression of it, nor is it a second nature added to the first. The truth rather is that what was in heaven before is now revealing itself upon earth, without any sort of alteration taking place in the process. There is no ***umptio naturæ novæ, and no change or mixture. The old Jewish theory of pre-existence is founded on the religious idea of the omniscience and omni-potence of God, that God to whom the events of history do not come as a surprise, but who guides their course. As the whole history of the world and the destiny of each individual are recorded on his tablets or books, so also each thing is ever present before him. The decisive contrast is between God and the creature. In designating the latter as “foreknown” by God, the primary idea is not to ennoble the creature, but 319rather to bring to light the wisdom and power of God. The ennobling of created things by attributing to them a pre-existence is a secondary result (see below).

According to the Hellenic conception, which has become ***ociated with Platonism, the idea of pre-existence is independent of the idea of God; it is based on the conception of the contrast between spirit and matter, between the infinite and finite, found in the cosmos itself. In the case of all spiritual beings, life in the body or flesh is at bottom an inadequate and unsuitable condition, for the spirit is eternal, the flesh perishable. But the pre-temporal existence, which was only a doubtful ***umption as regards ordinary spirits, was a matter of certainty in the case of the higher and purer ones. They lived in an upper world long before this earth was created, and they lived there as spirits without the “polluted garment of the flesh.” Now if they resolved for some reason or other to appear in this finite world, they cannot simply become visible, for they have no “visible form.” They must rather “***ume flesh,” whether they throw it about them as a covering, or really make it their own by a process of transformation or mixture. In all cases—and here the speculation gave rise to the most exciting problems—the body is to them something inadequate which they cannot appropriate without adopting certain measures of precaution, but this process may indeed p*** through all stages, from a mere seeming appropriation to complete union. The characteristics of the Greek ideas of pre-existence may consequently be thus expressed. First, the objects in question to which pre-existence is ascribed are meant to be ennobled by this attribute. Secondly, these ideas have no relation to God. Thirdly, the material appearance is regarded as something inadequate. Fourthly, speculations about phantasma, ***umptio naturæ humanæ, transmutatio, mixtura, duæ naturæ, etc., were necessarily ***ociated with these notions.

We see that these two conceptions are as wide apart as the poles. The first has a religious origin, the second a cosmological and psychological; the first glorifies God, the second the created spirit.

Harnack is NOT saying that the ancient church believed in a pre-existence. He compares and contrasts Jewish and Greek THEORIES or CONCEPTIONS that if there were a pre-existence, it would be based upon these lines.

NOTE! IT'S ALL SPECULATION, stem. So shame on you for deceitfully pushing this forward as FACT. :eek:

So typically "Mormon". An apologetic based upon nothing but WISHFUL THINKING.

stemelbow

11-13-2009, 08:57 PM

Harnack is NOT saying that the ancient church believed in a pre-existence. He compares and contrasts Jewish and Greek THEORIES or CONCEPTIONS that if there were a pre-existence, it would be based upon these lines.

NOTE! IT'S ALL SPECULATION, stem. So shame on you for deceitfully pushing this forward as FACT.

I didn't intend to suggest his ideas are established fact, only that his ideas and others tend to suggest there is evidence the ancient hebrews, at least some, thought there was a pre-existence to the spirit of man. shame on you for misunderstanding my point.

love,
stem

Father_JD

11-13-2009, 10:44 PM

I didn't intend to suggest his ideas are established fact, only that his ideas and others tend to suggest there is evidence the ancient hebrews, at least some, thought there was a pre-existence to the spirit of man. shame on you for misunderstanding my point.

love,
stem

Right...sure, stem. But this gives you away that you most certainly "suggested" Harnack's ideas as "established fact" by writing:

The spirit of man then existed prior to mortal bodies which housed those spirits.

You cited Harnack in support of Mormon dogma which you clearly admitted here. You're not fooling anyone, stem.

The truth is most likely you never bothered to read Harnack's statement IN CONTEXT, but relied on some Mormon apologetic website whose resident "scholar" cherry picked words, hoping to fool everyone.

No one is arguing against the idea of a "pre-existence" having existed...especially among the GREEKS. But I defy you and any Mormon to establish it was ever doctrine in the ancient church. :rolleyes:

stemelbow

11-16-2009, 09:56 AM

No one is arguing against the idea of a "pre-existence" having existed...especially among the GREEKS. But I defy you and any Mormon to establish it was ever doctrine in the ancient church.

The point is obvious, JD. If the ideas existed among ancient Jews then it may have been the doctrine long lost among Jews. But defining the doctrine of the ancient church hasn't proven so easy.

love,
stem

akaSeerone

11-16-2009, 10:35 AM

The point is obvious, JD. If the ideas existed among ancient Jews then it may have been the doctrine long lost among Jews. But defining the doctrine of the ancient church hasn't proven so easy.

love,
stem
When was the any pre existence believed among the ancient Jews? CFR!

Andy

stemelbow

11-16-2009, 03:11 PM

Read up a few posts, Andy. The reference was already given.

love,
stem

MacG

11-16-2009, 04:07 PM

When did the devil act as a ministering spirit? What evidence do you have that he was at one time a ministering spirit?

Before he ministered unto himself and not God. Some time after his making and before Eve's temptation in the garden.

Its eternally existing.

Genesis says that God said "Let there be..." this presumes it was not before it came to be.

What ministering did he do? If he was at one time a ministering spirit then there must be something saying he ministered at some point. if he did not minister then it seems he never did any good...So was that before God created the world/earth?

What ever it was that God wanted him and the others to do (some say he was a musician but form a biblical standpoint that is a weak argument but gets trotted out to rail against Christian rock. The Bible is not so specific in these matters and does not spend too much time of the life history of the Devil.

Please realize I accept the Biblical p***ages but i do not read into them your ***umptions. So quoting the p***ages without explanation only helps my case, if you ask me. So I'm asking how do you know that God making two kinds of life and that the devil was made to be a "ministering spirit" are not salvation issues?emphasis mine

Because the devil's not on the entrance exam and therefore not relevant to my salvation. However he we are taught that he and his cohorts in crime more than likely will try to influence me as I try to renew my mind as I am being conformed in to the image and likeness of God's Son.

And how do you know is not what God created him to be? It seems since God knew he would seek to replace God before creating him out of nothing, long before eve was tempted, it seems, shows that God made him as one destined to do evil for a reason. And that God made him out of nothing, conceiving of hw he would be evil and went ahead and created him to be evil. I see no other conclusion to make, logically speaking. You?

I would say He did in spite of knowing that and being just in His ways (whose ways are not my ways) provided the lamb slain before the foundation of the world that whosoever shall believe in Him will be saved and whosoever will not the wrath of God abides on such a one.

Okay. I don't see any of this specifically saying that our spirits did not previously exist though. I asked why did God create us with spirits and physical bodies and you're answer was saying that spirits do not have bodies. So it came from your attempt at answering my question.

love,
stem

I musta misunderstood. I thought that when you say spirits you mean preincarnate persons so I replied with Psalm 102:18 and 139:13.

Let this be written for a future generation,
that a people not yet created may praise the LORD.

Pslam 139:13
For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb.

But now I can see that this can work for you as well due to the extra biblical revelations of the Apostles and Prophets of TCJCLDS about procreating gods in yonder heavens.

The only spirits other than God that are mentioned in the Bible are the angels and demons and those humans who have died not those who are yet to come. Do you remember how shocked the Jews were to hear Jesus say that before Abraham was I AM? If they believed in the preincarnate spirit then this would not be a real problem for them.

Grace and peace,

MacG

stemelbow

11-17-2009, 12:47 PM

Before he ministered unto himself and not God. Some time after his making and before Eve's temptation in the garden.

So how do you know this? What's your evidence?

Genesis says that God said "Let there be..." this presumes it was not before it came to be.

I understand that's the ***umption mainstreamers read into it, but LDS just don't make that ***umption. When God said, for LDS, "let there be..." he was not saying Let there be the very fine matter that makes up all things.

What ever it was that God wanted him and the others to do (some say he was a musician but form a biblical standpoint that is a weak argument but gets trotted out to rail against Christian rock. The Bible is not so specific in these matters and does not spend too much time of the life history of the Devil.

Okay. But then why ***ume he was created good?

I would say He did in spite of knowing that and being just in His ways (whose ways are not my ways) provided the lamb slain before the foundation of the world that whosoever shall believe in Him will be saved and whosoever will not the wrath of God abides on such a one.

Okay, but what about God conceiving of the evil the devil would do before the devil was created ex nihilo? I mean if God did not already conceive of all the evil deeds the devil would do, then they would never have been done? The devil himself would not be bad because God created each and every part of the devil...not to mention you and I.

I musta misunderstood. I thought that when you say spirits you mean preincarnate persons so I replied with Psalm 102:18 and 139:13.

Let this be written for a future generation,
that a people not yet created may praise the LORD.

Pslam 139:13
For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb.

But now I can see that this can work for you as well due to the extra biblical revelations of the Apostles and Prophets of TCJCLDS about procreating gods in yonder heavens.

The only spirits other than God that are mentioned in the Bible are the angels and demons and those humans who have died not those who are yet to come. Do you remember how shocked the Jews were to hear Jesus say that before Abraham was I AM? If they believed in the preincarnate spirit then this would not be a real problem for them.

Grace and peace,

MacG

NO problem. I get your point here. THanks.

love,
stem

akaSeerone

11-17-2009, 02:17 PM

You really have the nerve....judging God.

The Bible says that everything God made was perfect....and that should go without saying....after all God is Perfect. Satan was created with free will and he chose to defy God and that brought about Sin in him.

And you have the nerve to blame God for Satan defying God and sinning!? Shame on you.

God said let there be and there was.....and the Bible says that God created out of nothing ......That is what the Bible plainly says, so what is your squawk about ex Nihilo.

It is unbelievable how you doubt the Bible and corrupt it with your foisting mormon meaning into God's Holy Writ.

You mormon mopologists are worse that devils and you seem to glory in your spewing of evil......James 2:19

19Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

Andy

stemelbow

11-17-2009, 02:51 PM

Andy, you have yet to address my argument. I think God is great and good in every way. My argument is that your belief system forces God to be bad, as explained in the OP. If you care to address my argument then by all means do so. If not, then continue with your hostility and misunderstanding.

love,
stem

akaSeerone

11-17-2009, 04:36 PM

I did address it.....why can't you see it?

Everything God created was perfect. Satan was created perfect with free will. He chose to defy God. In doing so he became sin. What is so hard to understand about that?

You are blaming God where there is no blame.

AND you can't limit God to man's standards and weaknesses.

Andy

akaSeerone

11-17-2009, 06:05 PM

Nope....I don't go chasing shadows.

The pre existence is a myth...an anti-Christ pagan occult belief and never happened.

You got a link then give it or stand refuted.

Andy

stemelbow

11-19-2009, 07:06 PM

That didn't address my actual argument though. I am suggesting that everything Satan did only occurred because first conceived of his every evil act before creating him ex nihilo. do you deny that God knew every single act satan would do before creating satan?

love,
stem

Father_JD

11-19-2009, 09:35 PM

The point is obvious, JD. If the ideas existed among ancient Jews then it may have been the doctrine long lost among Jews. But defining the doctrine of the ancient church hasn't proven so easy.

love,
stem

Thanks for the typical Mormon "apologetic", stem:

MAY HAVE BEEN.

All you've got is SPECULATION.

Weak, dude. Very weak AND useless. :rolleyes:

stemelbow

11-20-2009, 09:01 AM

Thanks for the typical throwing out any desperate attempt to change the subject when confronted with questions about your evan religious beliefs.

All you've got is a way to escape responding to questions and arguments, illogically, in hopes no one notices your inability to deal with the ramifications of your beliefs.

love,
stem

stemelbow

11-20-2009, 03:51 PM

Let's consider this question in light of the mainstream concept of creation. Was Lucifer created by God, out of nothing, to do good or evil? Was Lucifer immediately after creation good? If so when, specifically, did he become evil?

The other part of this is, why are we all created, according to the mainstream Christian religion, at birth? That is both our spirits and our physical bodies, but Lucifer was created only as spirit? Why did God decide to create those who would only be spirits and those who would have physical bodies and spirit bodies?

Looking forward to an enlightening discussion on the topic.

love,
stem

Considering that the couple of mainstreamers who did address the topic answered that God created lucifer to do good, we ought to find out if their reasoning holds up. Let us consider...

According to mainstream christian thought, God created Lucifer out of nothing. He also knew all the deeds Lucifer would do before creating him out of nothing. He knew the timing of creating lucifer before the others would cause Lucifer to be the very evil one. The very one to influence Eve causing the downfall of mankind. He knew all of this before designing the creature Lucifer from complete scratch. He knew what it would take that would cause Lucifer to rebel. The design of lucifer was the cause of his own choices. Worse than that, his own choices were initially conceived of by god before Lucifer was created. For instance, God knew Lucifer would rebel before Lucifer was created. God could have either not created Lucifer at all, knowing full well that by creating him the rest of his creations would suffer thanks to the fall, or could have waited to created Lucifer after all other creations. The reasons for God's timing, no mainstreamer knows. And its rather beside the point, but an interesting point anyway. knowing the fact that God knew of Lucifer's choices long before creating the character out of scratch and that all of Lucifer's choices were first conceived of by God, one wonders what line of reasoning a mainstreamer must follow in order to arrive at the conclusion that Lucifer was created to do good. It seems rather obvious for the mainstreamer to conclude Lucifer was created to do good is a leap away from the rather obvious logical conclusion of their belief system.

love,
stem

Father_JD

11-20-2009, 06:42 PM

So, stemmy...are you therefore positing the Mormon god didn't know about Lucifer's future actions? Or that the Mormon god is hardly sovereign and couldn't do a thing?
Or if he knew the future, he coulda not had cosmic sex with one of his celestials sweetie and not procreate this little bad spirit child of his??

Father_JD

11-20-2009, 06:44 PM

nrajeff

11-20-2009, 07:49 PM

According to mainstream christian thought, God created Lucifer out of nothing. He also knew all the deeds Lucifer would do before creating him out of nothing. He knew the timing of creating lucifer before the others would cause Lucifer to be the very evil one. The very one to influence Eve causing the downfall of mankind. He knew all of this before designing the creature Lucifer from complete scratch. He knew what it would take that would cause Lucifer to rebel. The design of lucifer was the cause of his own choices. Worse than that, his own choices were initially conceived of by god before Lucifer was created. For instance, God knew Lucifer would rebel before Lucifer was created. God could have either not created Lucifer at all, knowing full well that by creating him the rest of his creations would suffer thanks to the fall, or could have waited to created Lucifer after all other creations. The reasons for God's timing, no mainstreamer knows. And its rather beside the point, but an interesting point anyway. knowing the fact that God knew of Lucifer's choices long before creating the character out of scratch and that all of Lucifer's choices were first conceived of by God, one wonders what line of reasoning a mainstreamer must follow in order to arrive at the conclusion that Lucifer was created to do good. It seems rather obvious for the mainstreamer to conclude Lucifer was created to do good is a leap away from the rather obvious logical conclusion of their belief system.

---God logic, Stem, that is a keeper for future use.

Sentinus

11-21-2009, 06:38 PM

Considering that the couple of mainstreamers who did address the topic answered that God created lucifer to do good, we ought to find out if their reasoning holds up. Let us consider...

According to mainstream christian thought, God created Lucifer out of nothing. He also knew all the deeds Lucifer would do before creating him out of nothing. He knew the timing of creating lucifer before the others would cause Lucifer to be the very evil one. The very one to influence Eve causing the downfall of mankind. He knew all of this before designing the creature Lucifer from complete scratch. He knew what it would take that would cause Lucifer to rebel. The design of lucifer was the cause of his own choices. Worse than that, his own choices were initially conceived of by god before Lucifer was created. For instance, God knew Lucifer would rebel before Lucifer was created. God could have either not created Lucifer at all, knowing full well that by creating him the rest of his creations would suffer thanks to the fall, or could have waited to created Lucifer after all other creations. The reasons for God's timing, no mainstreamer knows. And its rather beside the point, but an interesting point anyway. knowing the fact that God knew of Lucifer's choices long before creating the character out of scratch and that all of Lucifer's choices were first conceived of by God, one wonders what line of reasoning a mainstreamer must follow in order to arrive at the conclusion that Lucifer was created to do good. It seems rather obvious for the mainstreamer to conclude Lucifer was created to do good is a leap away from the rather obvious logical conclusion of their belief system.

love,
stem

Ok I will bite. But first please answer one question the best way you can.

Why is it that God has to be logical according mans ideas of logic?

Kindest regards,
Sentinus

Sentinus

11-21-2009, 06:42 PM

---God logic, Stem, that is a keeper for future use.

Yup, it was very good logic, reasoned out by an obviously intelligent man. He should definitely keep it as it may win him alot of arguments, but it will lead no one including himself or you to a closer relationship with God, Nor, will it ever increase your understanding of Him. And why my friend does God have to be logical according to mans simple standards?

Kind regards,
Sentinus

nrajeff

11-21-2009, 08:03 PM

Yup, it was very good logic, reasoned out by an obviously intelligent man. He should definitely keep it as it may win him alot of arguments, but it will lead no one including himself or you to a closer relationship with God
---If we, via good reasoning, can sift through religious doctrines, and be able to discard the incorrect ones, I'd say that is a good thing, a step in the direction toward being closer to God.

And why my friend does God have to be logical according to mans simple standards?
--Great question that I have answered before:

1. The good ideas about logic that we have, probably CAME from God. So our logic is probably similar to God's logic--part of our being made in His image, perhaps.

2. If God's logic were alien to ours, and God therefore thinks and acts illogically by our standards, then our existence here would become somewhat of a joke: Are the things we are doing pleasing God, or angering Him? Because by OUR logic, our obedience should please Him. But if His logic is not like ours, then it would mean that our obeying Him actually angers Him, therefore we should not obey Him. See how that argument makes no sense? God is the epitome of logic, just like He is the epitome (the acme, actually) of love, kindness, wisdom, and all the other GOOD virtues. What Satan does is illogical.

Sentinus

11-21-2009, 08:18 PM

---If we, via good reasoning, can sift through religious doctrines, and be able to discard the incorrect ones, I'd say that is a good thing, a step in the direction toward being closer to God.

--Great question that I have answered before:

1. The good ideas about logic that we have, probably CAME from God. So our logic is probably similar to God's logic--part of our being made in His image, perhaps.

2. If God's logic were alien to ours, and God therefore thinks and acts illogically by our standards, then our existence here would become somewhat of a joke: We would never know whether the things we were doing were pleasing God, or angering Him, because by OUR logic, our obedience should please Him. But if His logic is not like ours, then it would meant that our obeying Him actually angers Him, therefore we should not obey Him. See how that argument makes no sense? God is the epitome of logic, just like He is the epitome (the acme, actually) of love, kindness, wisdom, and all the other GOOD virtues. What Satan does is illogical.

1. The good ideas about logic that we have, probably CAME from God. So our logic is probably similar to God's logic--part of our being made in His image, perhaps.

That of course would be a very human response.. What we logically think is right/good based on logic established by man MUST be the same logic God uses, hence, why we logically concluded what we did.

2. If God's logic were alien to ours, and God therefore thinks and acts illogically by our standards, then our existence here would become somewhat of a joke:

Not necessarily thats only how you as a finite man see it..

We would never know whether the things we were doing were pleasing God, or angering Him, because by OUR logic, our obedience should please Him.

Exactly, what makes you think that God wants our obedience? We as men see obedience as something that is pleasing to us so therefore we extend that desire to God.

But if His logic is not like ours, then it would meant that our obeying Him actually angers Him, therefore we should not obey Him.

That would seem logical if God indeed "wants" something..

See how that argument makes no sense?

I can see how either argument makes no sense, or absolute sense. Since we are both finite men making finite arguments of course we can understand finite logic. We just need to accept one thing as an absolute regarding God and then let our minds run wild with what we call logic.

]God is the epitome of logic, just like He is the epitome (the acme, actually) of love, kindness, wisdom, and all the other GOOD virtues

That ***umes much, firstly that what we consider to be "good" God also considers as such.

What Satan does is illogical. [/COLOR]

Or it is very logical depending on how you look at it..

Kind regards,
Sentinus

stemelbow

11-23-2009, 09:55 AM

Even if all it was was speculation, it still a fact that you are attempting to deflect from the topic instead of address and engage. You've got nothing.

love,
stem

stemelbow

11-23-2009, 09:58 AM

So, stemmy...are you therefore positing the Mormon god didn't know about Lucifer's future actions?

Of course not.

Or that the Mormon god is hardly sovereign and couldn't do a thing?

Of course not.

Or if he knew the future, he coulda not had cosmic sex with one of his celestials sweetie and not procreate this little bad spirit child of his??

Not at all. Your effort to avoid the argument is telling though. Thanks.

love,
stem

stemelbow

11-23-2009, 10:02 AM

I don't think God has to be logical according to man's ideas of logical necessarily. Any mainstreamer could think God to be the least logical character ever, as far as I'm concerned.

love,
stem

stemelbow

11-23-2009, 10:05 AM

Yup, it was very good logic, reasoned out by an obviously intelligent man. He should definitely keep it as it may win him alot of arguments, but it will lead no one including himself or you to a closer relationship with God, Nor, will it ever increase your understanding of Him.

I disagree completely. I'm not that intelligent....but I disagree more so with your reasoning that it will not bring me to a closer relationship with God, nor will it every increase my understanding of HIm. To know God is a great purpose of our existence, or to learn to know Him. Even if mainstreamers are right about their ideas of God, which seems impossible to me, it is beneficial to realize the logic conclusions of the beliefs mainstreamers hold demonstrate God is either deceptive or illogical. Either way, its that part about getting to know Him that's important.

love,
stem

Sentinus

11-23-2009, 12:23 PM

I disagree completely. I'm not that intelligent....but I disagree more so with your reasoning that it will not bring me to a closer relationship with God, nor will it every increase my understanding of HIm. To know God is a great purpose of our existence, or to learn to know Him. Even if mainstreamers are right about their ideas of God, which seems impossible to me, it is beneficial to realize the logic conclusions of the beliefs mainstreamers hold demonstrate God is either deceptive or illogical. Either way, its that part about getting to know Him that's important.

love,
stem

In my opinion we will never come close to understanding God as "He" truly is until we remove our preconstructed blinders and logical conclusions at the door.

Kind regards,
Sentinus

Sentinus

11-23-2009, 12:24 PM

Even if all it was was speculation, it still a fact that you are attempting to deflect from the topic instead of address and engage. You've got nothing.

love,
stem

I disagree my friend. (If indeed this was intended for me) :)

Kind regards,
Sentinus

stemelbow

11-23-2009, 04:31 PM

It was a response to JD.

love,
stem

stemelbow

11-23-2009, 04:33 PM

In my opinion we will never come close to understanding God as "He" truly is until we remove our preconstructed blinders and logical conclusions at the door.

Okee...dokeee. What blinders are you referring to? I can ***ume what logical conclusions you are alluding to, right?

love,
stem

Sentinus

11-23-2009, 04:42 PM

Okee...dokeee. What blinders are you referring to? I can ***ume what logical conclusions you are alluding to, right?

love,
stem

What blinders are you referring to?

The blinders of absolutism, denominationalism, logic and personal interpretation.

I can ***ume what logical conclusions you are alluding to, right?
No not at all. I wasn't alluding to anything, simply offering my opinion on what causes all of us to stumble in understanding God.

Kind regards,
Sentinus

Sentinus

11-23-2009, 04:43 PM

Okee...dokeee. What blinders are you referring to? I can ***ume what logical conclusions you are alluding to, right?

love,
stem

Thanx.

regards,
Sentinus

stemelbow

11-23-2009, 04:51 PM

So do some people understand God more than others?

love,
stem

Sentinus

11-23-2009, 05:01 PM

So do some people understand God more than others?

love,
stem

They may think so. I do think that in this instance personal effort does equal personal reward. I think the reason so many people seek to follow denominations and religious leaders is because they are to lazy to do the work themselves. It should be IMO the goal of every religious leader to no longer be needed, and those that seek to know God should seek to know him intimately and personally in their own and very individual way through prayer, fasting, and study. Sadly too few in all denominations are to legalistic and simple in their thinking. They go to church on Sunday and think the walk is done.

Regards,
Sentinus

stemelbow

11-23-2009, 05:03 PM

Thanks.

My question is, and I'll revise it for you...do you think some people understand God more than others?

love,
stem

Sentinus

11-23-2009, 05:16 PM

Thanks.

My question is, and I'll revise it for you...do you think some people understand God more than others?

love,
stem

do you think some people understand God more than others?

On a whole sure. But that's including people who do not seek a relationship with him into the equation.

I think it is more of a sliding rule. President Monson for example would be someone you may consider has a better knowledge of God than you do. I would disagree, as it is clear to me that you have made these issues a matter of deep personal study and thought. I would consider you to be his equal. (Unless of course I have you pegged all wrong) However, I would agree very quickly that someone of the Evangelical persuasion who spends no time pondering such things when compared to Monson knows less. I don't think its a denomination or set of beliefs that equals knowledge, as much as it is personal time, study and prayer.

Kind regards,
Sentinus

stemelbow

11-23-2009, 05:19 PM

Thanks, S. I like your thoughts here and agree in part--as if I've thought these things through or have dealt as intimately with God as Monson. No big deal there since neither of us are privy to understanding Monson's dealings with God. I get your point, though, in that its all very possible.

love,
stem

Father_JD

11-23-2009, 05:55 PM

Even if all it was was speculation, it still a fact that you are attempting to deflect from the topic instead of address and engage. You've got nothing.

love,
stem

Oh, right...the "OP". Well, now, stemster...God created Lucifer as GOOD.
That was the subject, right?

Still gonna speculate though, aren't you?? :rolleyes:

Father_JD

11-23-2009, 05:56 PM

Of course not.

Of course not.

Not at all. Your effort to avoid the argument is telling though. Thanks.

love,
stem

Then remind me what your contention is, stem. :rolleyes:

Sentinus

11-23-2009, 06:15 PM

stemelbow

11-24-2009, 11:32 AM

stemelbow

11-24-2009, 11:33 AM

Sure thing.

According to mainstream christian thought, God created Lucifer out of nothing. He also knew all the deeds Lucifer would do before creating him out of nothing. He knew the timing of creating lucifer before the others would cause Lucifer to be the very evil one. The very one to influence Eve causing the downfall of mankind. He knew all of this before designing the creature Lucifer from complete scratch. He knew what it would take that would cause Lucifer to rebel. The design of lucifer was the cause of his own choices. Worse than that, his own choices were initially conceived of by god before Lucifer was created. For instance, God knew Lucifer would rebel before Lucifer was created. God could have either not created Lucifer at all, knowing full well that by creating him the rest of his creations would suffer thanks to the fall, or could have waited to created Lucifer after all other creations. The reasons for God's timing, no mainstreamer knows. And its rather beside the point, but an interesting point anyway. knowing the fact that God knew of Lucifer's choices long before creating the character out of scratch and that all of Lucifer's choices were first conceived of by God, one wonders what line of reasoning a mainstreamer must follow in order to arrive at the conclusion that Lucifer was created to do good. It seems rather obvious for the mainstreamer to conclude Lucifer was created to do good is a leap away from the rather obvious logical conclusion of their belief system.

love,
stem

stemelbow

11-24-2009, 11:35 AM

Liking your thoughts does not equate to putting you on a pedestal in my mind. I see no reason to cause you a major fall personally.

love,
stem

Sentinus

11-24-2009, 11:40 AM

Liking your thoughts does not equate to putting you on a pedestal in my mind. I see no reason to cause you a major fall personally.

love,
stem

I was not ***uming a place for myself on a pedestal, but was making an observation that you may be putting Pres. Monson on one. Sorry I wasn't clear.

Kind regards,
Sentinus

stemelbow

11-24-2009, 01:23 PM

I know I was just messing around with your comments.

love,
stem

Sentinus

11-24-2009, 02:47 PM

I know I was just messing around with your comments.

love,
stem
Fair enough

Hope it was fun.. :D

Kind regards,
Sentinus

Father_JD

11-24-2009, 08:44 PM

'Tis obvious the speculation is coming from you. I am merely following the rules of logic as applied to your belief system. So far, all you have is your own statement while neglecting my argument. The bald JD...its a typical sight.

love,
stem

It's NOT speculation that God created Lucifer as GOOD, stem. He created the cosmos, the world, everything and declared it, "GOOD". Now anything else is pure SPECULATION on the Mormon's part.

And speculation is all you've got, stem, 'cause the bible doesn't support your bizarre beliefs. :eek:

Father_JD

11-24-2009, 08:45 PM

stemelbow

11-25-2009, 01:11 PM

Your contention is what then? You posit virtually everything Mos are supposed to believe about the Mormon deity....so what's your problem, stem??

Did the Mormo deity purposely create Lucifer as EVIL??

Don't be silly, JD. You often boast puffing up your chest about how much you know about mormonism because you were once a mormon but you think LDS are supposed to believe the very things I listed? You're mixed up, JD. The argument presented is critical of your concept of God, how he created, and the ramifications of that.

To LDS did God create ex nihilo?
Was Lucifer created at a specific time, according to LDS belief, that would place him in the time and place of Eden?
TO LDS did God design Lucifer from scratch knowing full well he would be the very evil one?
To LDS did God originally conceive of each and every evil act that Lucifer would do?

The answer to these questions for LDS is no. The problem is such is not the case for mainstreamers if one takes their beliefs to their logical conclusions.

love,
stem

Father_JD

11-25-2009, 05:43 PM

Originally Posted by Father_JD
Your contention is what then? You posit virtually everything Mos are supposed to believe about the Mormon deity....so what's your problem, stem??

Did the Mormo deity purposely create Lucifer as EVIL??

Don't be silly, JD. You often boast puffing up your chest about how much you know about mormonism because you were once a mormon but you think LDS are supposed to believe the very things I listed? You're mixed up, JD. The argument presented is critical of your concept of God, how he created, and the ramifications of that.

Your "concept" of God is supposed to be BIBLICAL, stemster, so what you're finally admitting to is that your "concept of God" is NOT BIBLICAL. Do I have that right? :cool:

To LDS did God create ex nihilo?

What does this have to do with Lucifer being created good or evil, stem?

Was Lucifer created at a specific time, according to LDS belief, that would place him in the time and place of Eden?

What does this have to do with Lucifer being created good or evil, stem?

TO LDS did God design Lucifer from scratch knowing full well he would be the very evil one?

So you're admitting that the Mormon deity is NOT OMNISCIENT??? Your pee-poor deity didn't know the future?????? :eek:

To LDS did God originally conceive of each and every evil act that Lucifer would do?

What makes you think Christians believe this, stemmy?? Somehow you confuse ex nihilo creation with the initial free agency God gave to both angels and humans, stem. This is called a "NON-SEQUITUR"...the one does not logically connect with the other.

The answer to these questions for LDS is no. The problem is such is not the case for mainstreamers if one takes their beliefs to their logical conclusions.

You don't know logic when it stares you in the face, stemmster. You're kiddin' yourself if you think you do. :eek:

nrajeff

11-26-2009, 02:51 PM

What makes you think Christians believe this, stemmy??

---Obviously some Christians believe it, if they believe God to have always been absolutely omniscient. There is no other logical conclusion available.

stemelbow

11-28-2009, 07:41 AM

To LDS did God originally conceive of each and every evil act that Lucifer would do?

What makes you think Christians believe this, stemmy?? Somehow you confuse ex nihilo creation with the initial free agency God gave to both angels and humans, stem. This is called a "NON-SEQUITUR"...the one does not logically connect with the other.

Are you going on record now saying, JD, that God did not know of every single act Lucifer would do before He created him out of nothing? You see, if God created Lucifer out of nothing and knew the evil he would do before he was created, then each and every deed Lucifer did was initially conceived of by God--not Lucifer. It has to be so, according to your belief system, right?

love,
stem

nrajeff

11-28-2009, 09:42 AM

Are you going on record now saying, JD, that God did not know of every single act Lucifer would do before He created him out of nothing? You see, if God created Lucifer out of nothing and knew the evil he would do before he was created, then each and every deed Lucifer did was initially conceived of by God--not Lucifer. It has to be so, according to your belief system, right?

---Well, yeah, it has to be so when followed to its inescapable logical conclusion, but FJD & co. don't like to follow it, don't want to think about it. They want to escape it.

Father_JD

11-28-2009, 04:20 PM

Are you going on record now saying, JD, that God did not know of every single act Lucifer would do before He created him out of nothing? You see, if God created Lucifer out of nothing and knew the evil he would do before he was created, then each and every deed Lucifer did was initially conceived of by God--not Lucifer. It has to be so, according to your belief system, right?

love,
stem

Oh,stemmy...when are you gonna learn about SECONDARY CAUSES. Of course God KNEW the evil Lucifer would do. He declares "the end from the beginning". WHY you refuse to believe the Bible is curious since this IS what the Bible declares, stem.

Go look up "secondary causes"...just because God KNOWS THE EVIL YOU HAVE DONE (or I for that matter) does NOT MEAN HE CONCEIVED OUR SINS. :eek:

Father_JD

11-28-2009, 04:21 PM

---Obviously some Christians believe it, if they believe God to have always been absolutely omniscient. There is no other logical conclusion available.

God's omniscience does NOT necessarily MEAN that God "conceived" or "condoned" anyone's sins or evil, jeff.

I can't help it that your "god" is nothing more than a demi-god like the ancient Greeks used to worship, an IMPOTENT deity. :rolleyes:

stemelbow

11-28-2009, 08:43 PM

Father_JD

11-29-2009, 04:09 PM

I noticed you decided not to answer my questions or for that matter address my argument. Again, JD is left to hide behind qualifying terms thinking they somehow solve his problems. Yet they don't obviously since he fails to address the points and questions.

love,
stem

I answered your questions, stem. You don't like the answer:

SECONDARY CAUSES.

Instead of being typically ******** of anything other than "Mormon", I suggest you go look up the term in a solid, Biblically-based theological dictionary.

stemelbow

11-30-2009, 03:36 PM

JD,

Let's see. I ask:

Are you going on record now saying, JD, that God did not know of every single act Lucifer would do before He created him out of nothing? You see, if God created Lucifer out of nothing and knew the evil he would do before he was created, then each and every deed Lucifer did was initially conceived of by God--not Lucifer. It has to be so, according to your belief system, right?

Your answer: Secondary causes? Yes or no questions are now answered by the phrase secondary causes? Its an adorable qualifier you think gets you out of this mess, for sure, JD, but it really is not answering the questions.

Do you not see how, according to your belief system, God had to have been the very one who conceived of Lucifer's evil deeds long before Lucifer did them? This would have to be considering the logical conclusions of your belief system, JD.

love,
stem

nrajeff

11-30-2009, 08:29 PM

Secondary causes would be causes that were not caused by the one UNcaused Cause, right, FJD?

stemelbow

12-01-2009, 03:50 PM

As far as I understand, Jeff, secondary causes would be causes not directly caused by the one uncaused cause, but only indirectly caused by such an one through those creations he initially caused to exist. Thus, Satan's temptation of Eve is only a secondary cause of God's creation. In JD parlance God indirectly caused the secondary cause. Somehow, JD, thinks this qualifying term gets him out of actually dealing with the arguments presented. Yet, in no way does the concept even address my argument, to his frustration.

love,
stem

nrajeff

12-02-2009, 04:38 AM

Thanks for clarifying the concept, Stem. So FJD's theology is still in the same dilemma as in my parable of the designer- creator- programmer- ***embler of the robot that, once, ***embled and activated, is guaranteed to start doing evil. How can such a designer- creator- programmer- ***embler NOT be 100% responsible for the evil that ensues? It's not as if he didn't know what would happen when the robot was unleashed on the universe. It's not as if he wasn't able to program it differently. It's not as if someone was forcing him to build the robot. And it's not as if he couldn't have turned it OFF the millisecond before it started following its programming.

Like we said: We are just forcing these people to follow their own beliefs to the logical, inescapable, unpleasant conclusion.

Father_JD

12-02-2009, 02:08 PM

jeff...we've been through this I don't know how many times.

Think...SECONDARY CAUSES.

Father_JD

12-02-2009, 02:10 PM

JD,

Let's see. I ask:

Your answer: Secondary causes? Yes or no questions are now answered by the phrase secondary causes? Its an adorable qualifier you think gets you out of this mess, for sure, JD, but it really is not answering the questions.

Do you not see how, according to your belief system, God had to have been the very one who conceived of Lucifer's evil deeds long before Lucifer did them? This would have to be considering the logical conclusions of your belief system, JD.

love,
stem

Your full of non-sequiturs, stem. Just because God created Lucifer does NOT NECESSARILY FOLLOW THAT GOD HIMSELF CONCEIVED OF LUCIFER'S REBELLION, ETC.

So can the mormo-deity ROY control Satan...or not? Or do you have a totally wuss-god you worship?? ;)

stemelbow

12-02-2009, 03:10 PM

Your full of non-sequiturs, stem. Just because God created Lucifer does NOT NECESSARILY FOLLOW THAT GOD HIMSELF CONCEIVED OF LUCIFER'S REBELLION, ETC.

I hear your cop out and wonder why you still refuse to engage, JD. You say, "just because God created Lucifer..." which is missing the point. God, according to your beliefs system didn't just create Lucifer but created him out of complete nothingness. And before creating him out of complete nothingness God knew all things Lucifer would do, right? (let's see you answer some direct questions this time) Thus, Lucifer wasn't EVEN when God knew what Lucifer was going to do. Following the logical conclusion of your belief system, then, God was the One who originally conceived of Lucifer's evil deeds, correct? If not, please explain. Let's not just p*** it off with a wave of your hand again, avoiding the questions and topics.

So can the mormo-deity ROY control Satan...or not? Or do you have a totally wuss-god you worship?? ;)

We can wait till Jesus returns and puts him to shame. Obviously, you don't know much about LDS teaching if you aren't aware of God being able to control satan. Sorry, JD, you need to re-check your bragged about LDS membership, since you don't know much about LDS belief.

love,
stem

nrajeff

12-02-2009, 05:26 PM

jeff...we've been through this I don't know how many times.
----Yes, wanna know why? Because you refuse to confront the ramifications of your theology. We take you, step by step, down the path of your beliefs, but when we get to a certain point--the point where it's about to get ugly for your beliefs--you say "All right, hold it right there! Don't take another step!" It's time to take some more steps, FJD. After all, sooner or later, one of your fellow Episcopalians could be enough of a thinker to see the lack of clothing on the Emperor, and ask you these same questions. If you give them the same evasions you give us, they aren't gonna be any more satisfied than we are.

Think...SECONDARY CAUSES.
---Yeah, been there. Stem is exactly right: The "secondary causes" escape clause don't work for you, because when ALL of your beliefs are taken into account, they leave God excuse-less. That's why your systematic theology is broken: If just one of the critical parts in it is a defective part, the whole system shuts down. Lemme explain it again:

Your supers***ion about God being absolutely omniscient and omnipotent and sovereign, combined with your supers***ion that all His creating was done ex nihilo, equals the dilemma you have placed Him in. You have made Him the cause of all secondary causes, both all the good and all the bad ones. That's because you believe that there is nothing He doesn't know, nothing He can't do, and no one who can boss Him around or otherwise make Him change His mind. He calls ALL the shots. As Stem said, you believe that He knew, even before Satan did (even before Satan existed), what Satan would think. So Satan's thoughts were God's thoughts FIRST. And if God didn't LIKE what Satan would eventually think, God was free to never create Satan, and He was free to create a Satan that would have DIFFERENT thoughts. If your God is unable to alter the future that He hasn't even created yet but KNOWS He will create, how omnipotent IS He, really?

Ever see the movie "The ****erfly Effect"? It shows how a human going back in time to try to fix bad events--to prevent them from ever happening--only creates other bad events. Why? Because your average human doesn't KNOW what the side-effects of his actions will result in. So any meddling is likely to be at least as disastrous as doing nothing. But God, so you believe, DOES know literally EVERY side-effect of every possible thing He might conceivably do. That, combined with the other supers***ions you have about Him, leaves Him stuck with 100% of the responsibility for any evil thing that any of His creations does.

You can't run--or hide (thanks to us)--from the ramifications of your beliefs about God, FJD.

Father_JD

12-02-2009, 07:28 PM

Yes, wanna know why? Because you refuse to confront the ramifications of your theology. We take you, step by step, down the path of your beliefs, but when we get to a certain point--the point where it's about to get ugly for your beliefs--you say "All right, hold it right there! Don't take another step!" It's time to take some more steps, FJD. After all, sooner or later, one of your fellow Episcopalians could be enough of a thinker to see the lack of clothing on the Emperor, and ask you these same questions. If you give them the same evasions you give us, they aren't gonna be any more satisfied than we are.

What you still don't understand, jeff, is that your premises are in error, therefore the "ramifications" you think support your theology are INVALID. :rolleyes:

---Yeah, been there. Stem is exactly right: The "secondary causes" escape clause don't work for you, because when ALL of your beliefs are taken into account, they leave God excuse-less. That's why your systematic theology is broken: If just one of the critical parts in it is a defective part, the whole system shuts down. Lemme explain it again:

You have to REFUTE "secondary causes" with valid reasoning instead of saying, "it doesn't work". :eek:

Your supers***ion about God being absolutely omniscient and omnipotent and sovereign,

"Supers***ion", jeff??? That IS what the Bible teaches about God: Omniscient, omnipotent, and sovereign.

(Now then...your blind belief in the BOM and the BOA is nothing but supers***ion because there's NOTHING to support either documents as real works of antiquity, let alone, "scripture")

Your problem is not understanding just what the three "omnis" MEAN or represent...hence you erect nothing but straw men such as:

"If God is OMNIPOTENT, then can He create a rock which is too heavy for himself to lift"???

The answer is NO. So the question is: Is God omnipotent in an ABSOLUTE way? And according to Mormon thinking, this is what you believe about the Biblical doctrines.

...combined with your supers***ion that all His creating was done ex nihilo, equals the dilemma you have placed Him in. You have made Him the cause of all secondary causes, both all the good and all the bad ones. That's because you believe that there is nothing He doesn't know, nothing He can't do, and no one who can boss Him around or otherwise make Him change His mind.

Of course there's NOTHING that He doesn't know, but not necessarily "nothing He can't do", because GOD CAN NOT LIE for example. Here's your "absolutist" qualfiers which are making you horribly CONFUSED, jeff.

He calls ALL the shots. As Stem said, you believe that He knew, even before Satan did (even before Satan existed), what Satan would think. So Satan's thoughts were God's thoughts FIRST.

No, they were Satan's thoughts and HIS ALONE, jeff. Just because God can "declare the end from the beginning", being omnscient does NOT mean that He is the author of evil. This is where you ERR in your thinking. :rolleyes:

And if God didn't LIKE what Satan would eventually think, God was free to never create Satan, and He was free to create a Satan that would have DIFFERENT thoughts. If your God is unable to alter the future that He hasn't even created yet but KNOWS He will create, how omnipotent IS He, really?

You don't understand, jeff. God IS THE AUTHOR OF THE FUTURE. So it's not a case of God "unable to alter the future".

Your problem has ALWAYS been SECOND GUESSING GOD...ALWAYS speculating as to this or that. REFUSING to believe what He Himself declares about Himself.

Ever see the movie "The ****erfly Effect"? It shows how a human going back in time to try to fix bad events--to prevent them from ever happening--only creates other bad events. Why? Because your average human doesn't KNOW what the side-effects of his actions will result in. So any meddling is likely to be at least as disastrous as doing nothing. But God, so you believe, DOES know literally EVERY side-effect of every possible thing He might conceivably do. That, combined with the other supers***ions you have about Him, leaves Him stuck with 100% of the responsibility for any evil thing that any of His creations does.

One could make (at the most) a case for God being INDIRECTLY responsible, yes. But where does this leave the Mormon deity, jeff??

Impotent?
Not knowing?

Don't you see you're creating more problems for yourself...a theology which is at its heart UNBIBLICAL???

You can't run--or hide (thanks to us)--from the ramifications of your beliefs about God, FJD.

And what about the ramifications regarding your beliefs about God:

Impotent?
Not knowing?
Merely a demi-god like the Greeks and Romans believed in?
A God who's still "progressing"?
An imperfect deity?

You'd better think this through, jeff. ;)

Father_JD

12-02-2009, 07:31 PM

My questions were rhetorical, stem. Look up the word, "rhetorical", ok? Then maybe you'll understand such p***ages as from *** when God asks him, "Where were YOU when I created...etc"???

God did NOT conceive Lucifer's evil deeds. He FORSAW THEM. He's NOT the originator of them.

This you refuse to understand.

Father_JD

12-02-2009, 07:52 PM

I don't think God has to be logical according to man's ideas of logical necessarily. Any mainstreamer could think God to be the least logical character ever, as far as I'm concerned.

love,
stem

Uh...God is the AUTHOR of Logic, stem. In fact, I'd go as far to say that it's a very attribute of His. ;)

stemelbow

12-03-2009, 04:08 PM

God did NOT conceive Lucifer's evil deeds. He FORSAW THEM. He's NOT the originator of them.

This you refuse to understand.

Then edumicate me. My goodness. It couldn't be that hard coudl it? So you say even though God knew all of Lucifer's deeds before Lucifer existed God did not originally conceive of those deeds, right? Then who did? Who originally conceived of Lucifer's deeds? Of course Lucifer couldn't have been the conceiver of them because God already knew them before Lucifer ever was, right?

love,
stem

stemelbow

12-03-2009, 04:09 PM

Coming from someone who is so illogical, JD, that doesn't mean much;)

love,
stem

Father_JD

12-03-2009, 09:21 PM

Coming from someone who is so illogical, JD, that doesn't mean much;)

love,
stem

LOL.

Says the one who can believe in two mutually-exclusive truth claims at the same time!!!! :rolleyes:

Father_JD

12-03-2009, 09:25 PM

Then edumicate me. My goodness. It couldn't be that hard coudl it? So you say even though God knew all of Lucifer's deeds before Lucifer existed God did not originally conceive of those deeds, right? Then who did? Who originally conceived of Lucifer's deeds? Of course Lucifer couldn't have been the conceiver of them because God already knew them before Lucifer ever was, right?

love,
stem

Lucifer conceived His own ideas and committed his own deeds.

Now, if you half-understand that scripture declares that God is NOT THE AUTHOR OF EVIL,

Then you should understand that God is NOT THE AUTHOR of either Lucifer's rebellion or anyone elses.

You're confused like many people who think because God knows every outcome, that makes people merely "puppets".

Bad logic...of course what else could one expect from someone "Mormon"?? :rolleyes:

nrajeff

12-04-2009, 10:10 PM

God is NOT THE AUTHOR of either Lucifer's rebellion or anyone elses.
You're confused like many people who think because God knows every outcome, that makes people merely "puppets".

---Um, you said that

God IS THE AUTHOR OF THE FUTURE.

--If God authored it, then He OWNS it, FJD. Your illogic has become glaringly apparent now. Imagine telling the author of ANYTHING "You are not responsible for how the thing you authored turned out." If God authored the evil things that Satan (or any of us) would do in the future, then who is DIRECTLY responsible for that future, FJD?

Q.E.D. Game, set and match. :)

Russianwolfe

12-04-2009, 11:56 PM

---Um, you said that

--If God authored it, then He OWNS it, FJD. Your illogic has become glaringly apparent now. Imagine telling the author of ANYTHING "You are not responsible for how the thing you authored turned out." If God authored the evil things that Satan (or any of us) would do in the future, then who is DIRECTLY responsible for that future, FJD?

Q.E.D. Game, set and match. :)

And verified by this member of the Committee on Logical Debate.

Congratulations, NRAJeff.

Marvin

stemelbow

12-05-2009, 06:03 AM

stemelbow

12-05-2009, 06:06 AM

LOL.

Says the one who can believe in two mutually-exclusive truth claims at the same time!!!! :rolleyes:

The very one who believes two mutually-exclusive truth claims at the same time, just said "LOL". Its good to hear you concede the point that you have to be illogical to accept the mainstream concept of truth. Thanks again, JD.

love,
stem

Father_JD

12-05-2009, 05:07 PM

The very one who believes two mutually-exclusive truth claims at the same time, just said "LOL". Its good to hear you concede the point that you have to be illogical to accept the mainstream concept of truth. Thanks again, JD.

love,
stem

Hardly, stem. It's ILLOGICAL to believe the BOA is "scripture" when the m****cript has been OBJECTIVELY DETERMINED TO BE A PAGAN DOCUMENT AND NOT WRITTEN BY THE PATRIARCH ABRAHAM.

Your fee-e-e-e-e-e-elings trump logic, stem. That's the very sad truth of the matter. :rolleyes:

Father_JD

12-05-2009, 05:10 PM

---Um, you said that

--If God authored it, then He OWNS it, FJD. Your illogic has become glaringly apparent now. Imagine telling the author of ANYTHING "You are not responsible for how the thing you authored turned out." If God authored the evil things that Satan (or any of us) would do in the future, then who is DIRECTLY responsible for that future, FJD?

Q.E.D. Game, set and match. :)

Don't dance your little victory dance yet, jeff. God is indeed the AUTHOR of the future whether that be by direct, sovereign actions...OR of HIS PERMISSIVE WILL...meaning He sovereignly ALLOWS actions, events unfold according to His OWN PURPOSES.

Got it...finally?? :rolleyes:

Father_JD

12-05-2009, 05:12 PM

No better reply possible, Jeff. Thanks. JD's been stuck at this point before, and he never fails to run at the very point his illogic is exposed. Ain't that right JD? it seems you still think God creating evil indirectly and the concept of secondary causes makes everything just go away. You actually still think your theology is found in the Bible?

His lack of logical thinking runs that deep.;)

love,
stem

Several questions need to be addressed, stem:

1. Is GOD omniscient?

Yes or No.

2. Does God "declare the end from the beginning"?

Yes or No.

3. Is God sovereign?

Yes or No.

4. Does the bible say that God is the AUTHOR OF EVIL?

Yes or No.

Therein lies the answers and not your lame-o Mormon SPECULATION. :eek:

stemelbow

12-06-2009, 08:30 AM

stemelbow

12-06-2009, 08:39 AM

Don't dance your little victory dance yet, jeff. God is indeed the AUTHOR of the future whether that be by direct, sovereign actions...OR of HIS PERMISSIVE WILL...meaning He sovereignly ALLOWS actions, events unfold according to His OWN PURPOSES.

Got it...finally?? :rolleyes:

Sadly, JD, something you keep avoiding, not only does he allow those actions, but if he never conceived of the evil actions long before anything else was other than Him, then none of those actions would be done now. You see, they all are traced back to his conception. He, according to your bankrupt belief system if thought through to its logical conclusion, is the very one who started all of this, and some he punishes and others he doesn't. This helps explain the problem initially uncovered and completely neglected by your camp to this point, according to the logical conclusions of your belief system, even if God said Lucifer was good after initially creating him, He also knew exactly what, when, how and why Lucifer would no longer be good. Essentially He created Lucifer out of nothing with the mechanisms to become evil. He put every piece of him together, while knowing which pieces would cause the timely rebellion. On top of that, each of Lucifer's actions can be traced, logically, back to your god's conceptions. Seeing as God knew the future, He thought of Lucifer's bad deeds long before Lucifer did, and if God did not think of Lucifer bad deeds long before Lucifer did, then Those bad deeds would never have happened. There really is no other conclusion to draw, unless of course, like you, we run from logic and plain jump to another set of conclusions, like you, hoping to defiantly run from what our brains are capable of explaining. Run JD run.

You understand logic, don't you, JD? If not, read up a bit on the concept.

love,
stem

akaSeerone

12-06-2009, 11:00 AM

Sadly, JD, something you keep avoiding, not only does he allow those actions, but if he never conceived of the evil actions long before anything else was other than Him, then none of those actions would be done now. You see, they all are traced back to his conception. He, according to your bankrupt belief system if thought through to its logical conclusion, is the very one who started all of this, and some he punishes and others he doesn't. This helps explain the problem initially uncovered and completely neglected by your camp to this point, according to the logical conclusions of your belief system, even if God said Lucifer was good after initially creating him, He also knew exactly what, when, how and why Lucifer would no longer be good. Essentially He created Lucifer out of nothing with the mechanisms to become evil. He put every piece of him together, while knowing which pieces would cause the timely rebellion. On top of that, each of Lucifer's actions can be traced, logically, back to your god's conceptions. Seeing as God knew the future, He thought of Lucifer's bad deeds long before Lucifer did, and if God did not think of Lucifer bad deeds long before Lucifer did, then Those bad deeds would never have happened. There really is no other conclusion to draw, unless of course, like you, we run from logic and plain jump to another set of conclusions, like you, hoping to defiantly run from what our brains are capable of explaining. Run JD run.

You understand logic, don't you, JD? If not, read up a bit on the concept.

love,
stem
Spoken like a true atheists stem!

You want to call yourself Christian and yet you have the gall to judge God and blame Him because someone he spoke into existence and was given free will became evil! Shame on you mormon!!!

The only thing that can be traced back to God is that He gave "Lucifer" free will.

Lucifer chose to sin...it was not programed into him.

Ezekiel 28:13-15: “Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold; the workmanship of they tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created. Thou are the anointed cherub that covereth and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee”.

Your post is full of nothing but human reasoning...learn to read what the Bible says about given situations and quit with the humanistic hogwash...Jesus dealt with that when He said to Peter.....

Matthew 16

21From that time on Jesus began to explain to his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things at the hands of the elders, chief priests and teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and on the third day be raised to life.

22Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him. "Never, Lord!" he said. "This shall never happen to you!"

23Jesus turned and said to Peter, "Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in mind the things of God, but the things of men."

Until you are saved and have the infilling of the Holy Spirit you will never understand the things of God and are only spinning your wheels to your hurt.

It was Lucifer's choice to become evil and God had a way to turn that to His advantage.

God did not choose for Lucifer to become evil, that was Lucifer's choice, so quit blaming God.

Pity the blind mormon!

Andy

Father_JD

12-06-2009, 04:57 PM

Father_JD

12-06-2009, 04:58 PM

Just like, JD. Run away from arguments presented in hopes no one notices his sleight of hand trickery. answering these questions doesn't get you out of the hole you're in due to your fallacious theological beliefs, JD. It becomes obvious when you deflect and avoid the arguments that you know you have nothing in response aside from these silly games you love. Have fun...

love,
stem

Uh...it's apparent to everyone here that you REFUSE to engage these questions because they are BIBLICAL and can't conform to Mormon SPECULATION, stemmy. :rolleyes:

stemelbow

12-07-2009, 05:16 AM

Funny, JD. Typical too--change the subject to your rather jaded talking points whenever you get stuck in your illogic. Adorable...JD.

love,
stem

stemelbow

12-07-2009, 05:19 AM

Spoken like a true atheists stem!

You want to call yourself Christian and yet you have the gall to judge God and blame Him because someone he spoke into existence and was given free will became evil! Shame on you mormon!!!

The only thing that can be traced back to God is that He gave "Lucifer" free will.

Lucifer chose to sin...it was not programed into him.

Ezekiel 28:13-15: “Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold; the workmanship of they tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created. Thou are the anointed cherub that covereth and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee”.

Your post is full of nothing but human reasoning...learn to read what the Bible says about given situations and quit with the humanistic hogwash...Jesus dealt with that when He said to Peter.....

Matthew 16

21From that time on Jesus began to explain to his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things at the hands of the elders, chief priests and teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and on the third day be raised to life.

22Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him. "Never, Lord!" he said. "This shall never happen to you!"

23Jesus turned and said to Peter, "Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in mind the things of God, but the things of men."

Until you are saved and have the infilling of the Holy Spirit you will never understand the things of God and are only spinning your wheels to your hurt.

It was Lucifer's choice to become evil and God had a way to turn that to His advantage.

God did not choose for Lucifer to become evil, that was Lucifer's choice, so quit blaming God.

Pity the blind mormon!

Andy

I know what the BIble says that's why I find your belief system so problematic, Andy. My question is in relation to the belief system you guys have..not what the Bible says. The questioning and argumentation I've raised shows your belief system to be problematic, yet you and your partners refuse to engage the argument, for some reason. I wonder why that is.

love,
stem

stemelbow

12-07-2009, 05:20 AM

stemelbow

12-07-2009, 05:23 AM

Yours is nothing but a sop****ric attempt at "philosophizing", second-guessing God, stem.

Your arguments are NOT founded in scripture, but in Mormon SPECULATION.

The same arguments you're supposedly attacking Christianity with are likewise VALID for Mormon presuppositions.

You supposedly believe that the Mormon god is OMNISCIENT, so why don't you apply your own line of reasoning as to WHY the mormo-god saw Lucifer's actions in advance and let them happen???

Contrary to your beliefs, whether Lucifer were created ex nihilo, or "begotten" as some kind of spirit baby is IRRELEVANT to the issue.

Sadly, JD, you don't even know the issue. The argument has nothing to do with whether God knew in advance and yet was able to stop Lucifer. It goes much deeper than that, but for some reason, not even needing to be mentioned, you refuse to engage the argument. You see for me, it was merely that God knew Lucifer would rebel, even though Lucifer already was existing at the time. For you, God conceived of Lucifer's rebellion long before Lucifer ever was. Its quite a big difference, JD, but its quite understandable that you would buck the logic and whine about something else in hopes to avoid the awfulness of your belief system. You aren't the only one hiding, JD.

love,
stem

nrajeff

12-07-2009, 01:41 PM

FJD, who is the author of the Star Wars saga? (George Lucas, in case you have been in a monastery for the past 30 years) Who is responsible for the parts in the Star Wars universe where Palpatine, Anakin--ANY of the bad guys--"chooses" EVIL? THE AUTHOR, FJD. Do you really propose that those characters--who Lucas created ex nihilo--are responsible for how they turned out? Hello, Lucas created them to be either good guys or bad guys--vessels destined, by the end of the series, to be either vessels for glory or for destruction. JUST LIKE YOUR VERSION OF GOD conceived, designed, and wrote the screenplay for the characters in this universe. The AUTHOR of the universe, its first cause, is the one 100% responsible for what happens in his creation.

How can this keep sailing over your head? (Except on purpose, of course) Imagine George Lucas refusing to take responsibility for the actions of the characters he created! "Oh, sure, I created them all from nothing, but they have free will to choose good or evil...somehow...it's not my fault, I just created 'em and let 'em go like windup toys with free will, even though I, as THE AUTHOR of the whole series, wrote the entire story. Don't come blaming me if you don't like the choices that Vader or Boba Fett made...I'm just the AUTHOR! Like Pontius Pilate, I wash my hands of responsibility for what they did...."

Of course you don't like facing this reality--who would?--but your world-view makes God the author of all the evil in what He creates because, by your own definition, HE is the AUTHOR of the whole shebang.

stemelbow

12-07-2009, 02:15 PM

savvy illustration, Jeff.

I'm not even a star wars fan but I do know Anakin became bad at some point. Didn't he also express remorse or sumpin? Anyway, the character himself was a product of George Lucas' mind, just like Lucifer was such of God's mind. God knew his script before he was created out of the nothingness. It makes me wonder, according to JD's mixed up belief system, why didn't God create JD and stuff him in lucifer's place. Surely JD wouldn't have sought out to tempt Eve in some hope to cause the downfall of all of mankind, right? JD?

love,
stem

Father_JD

12-07-2009, 05:41 PM

Father_JD

12-07-2009, 05:41 PM

You're the one who brought up "logic"...something Mos don't possess.

Father_JD

12-07-2009, 05:42 PM

Its even more clear to anyone who understands your trickery, JD, that your questioning is some vein attempt to avoid the topic and arguments presented. Like you've been doing for quite a few posts now.

love,
stem

I'm asking you to ENGAGE BIBLICALLY, not according to Mormon speculation and/or doctrine, stem.;)

Father_JD

12-07-2009, 05:45 PM

Sadly, JD, you don't even know the issue. The argument has nothing to do with whether God knew in advance and yet was able to stop Lucifer. It goes much deeper than that, but for some reason, not even needing to be mentioned, you refuse to engage the argument. You see for me, it was merely that God knew Lucifer would rebel, even though Lucifer already was existing at the time. For you, God conceived of Lucifer's rebellion long before Lucifer ever was. Its quite a big difference, JD, but its quite understandable that you would buck the logic and whine about something else in hopes to avoid the awfulness of your belief system. You aren't the only one hiding, JD.

love,
stem

Then WHY did the Mormo-god ALLOW it to happen??? And lest you forget, God did NOT conceive of Lucifer's rebellion no more than the Mormo-god did.

You're clueless as to the problems you've created for yourself with "eternal beings" OTHER THAN GOD HIMSELF. :eek:

stemelbow

12-07-2009, 08:05 PM

Then WHY did the Mormo-god ALLOW it to happen??? And lest you forget, God did NOT conceive of Lucifer's rebellion no more than the Mormo-god did.

Not so, as I already explained, JD. In your belief system God conceived of evil before anyone else ever was. In LDS belief system God merely knew that evil was already practiced for eternity past, Lucifer was only another evil prac***ioner in a long line. God did not conceive of Lucifer's deeds, they already were for eternity. Hope this helps your illogic.

You're clueless as to the problems you've created for yourself with "eternal beings" OTHER THAN GOD HIMSELF. :eek:

Not really.

love,
stem

stemelbow

12-07-2009, 08:06 PM

stemelbow

12-07-2009, 08:08 PM

My argument has been posed to refute your beliefs. your beliefs aren't biblical. That's not my fault, JD. Now hows about you actually engage the argument?

love,
stem

Father_JD

12-08-2009, 04:35 PM

My argument has been posed to refute your beliefs. your beliefs aren't biblical. That's not my fault, JD. Now hows about you actually engage the argument?

love,
stem

You haven't once cited BIBLICAL scripture in support of your wild accusations, stemmy. :rolleyes:

Father_JD

12-08-2009, 04:37 PM

Not so, as I already explained, JD. In your belief system God conceived of evil before anyone else ever was. In LDS belief system God merely knew that evil was already practiced for eternity past, Lucifer was only another evil prac***ioner in a long line. God did not conceive of Lucifer's deeds, they already were for eternity. Hope this helps your illogic.

Not really.

love,
stem

Of course God KNOWS what "evil" IS, stemmy. But you're mistaken when you think Lucifer is ETERNAL as God IS, stem.

Bad theology. In complete contradiction to Col. 1. :eek:

So where's your SCRIPTURE to support your NONSENSE?? :rolleyes:

Father_JD

12-08-2009, 04:38 PM

yeah...not one Mormon understands logic according to JD, but he gets all illogical in the very thread he exclaims such. It just has not bite, JD, when you claim others aren't logical, seeing as how illogical you are.

love,
stem

I'm not the one who insists in believing in the BOA when the OBJECTIVE EVIDENCE proves its a FRAUD, a HOAX.

You haven't one "logical" bone in your body, stem. Why do you even try? :eek:

nrajeff

12-08-2009, 10:10 PM

stemelbow

12-09-2009, 11:14 AM

stemelbow

12-09-2009, 11:15 AM

stemelbow

12-09-2009, 11:21 AM

James Banta

12-09-2009, 11:51 AM

So you concede the point that your beleif system shows God to be the very source of all evil? Interesting concession, JD. As for my belief system....Col. 1 does not in anyway refute it. Nice try though.

love,
stem

So the mormon god knew of evil the whole time and knew it had to exist so he fixed it so man couldn't obey him by giving a contradictory commandment.. And you turn and blame God for knowing all things and therefore knowing that Satan would be evil, knowing that Adam would sin, knowing that stemelbow would reject him yet He went ahead anyway and created us.. Therefore He is the one that is guilty of sin not man? So a prison warden that knows a man is going to be released and has promised to kill his wife who testified against him putting him in prison is guilty of that woman's murder when that man stands above her, his hands covered in her blood.. NONSENSE!! That is a flat refusal to take responsibility for your own actions.. God's knows, yes He knows.. Did he cause it? NO, to say He did it to be a fool.. IHS jim

James Banta

12-09-2009, 11:55 AM

Well said, Jeff. JD's been hiding behind his "well you believe the BoA..." complaint whenever backed into a corner. His desperation is telling. Long ago he conceded that God did create evil, only He said you must qualify it with the term "indirectly". So to JD, God is the source of evil "indirectly". Anyway, it seems he'll leave it at that, hoping somehow this whole issue will just go away so he can continue to grandstand and claim he knows what he's talking about in regards to the BoA because he saw some info on the net which mimicked Charles Larson's attempted critiques.

love,
stem

God created us all with free will.. That means there is the possibility to do evil.. That doesn't mean that God forces the evil.. You teach your children right from wrong.. You teach them to do right but you know they will fail at some time in their life they will sin.. You KNOW THAT.. I guess you are guilty of their sin because you knew they would commit it.. Your logic is garbage.. IHS jim

stemelbow

12-09-2009, 08:12 PM

James Banta

12-09-2009, 08:40 PM

Sorry, Jim, considering the arguments I've laid here, your ****ogy doesn't apply. I didn't create my children from my imagination, or ex nihilo. My goodness one of them is adopted. I didn't have any part of creating him.

love,
stem

Are you comparing yourself to God? I wonder just how God deals with the level of Blasphemy that mormons seem to live in... IHS jim

Father_JD

12-10-2009, 02:21 PM

FJD, YOU claimed that God is the AUTHOR of everything that has ever existed, does exist, or will exist. The AUTHOR has responsibility for what he AUTHORED, FJD. Including any evil done by any of the characters he created, er, AUTHORED. You are the one who has painted yourself into the corner of where your beliefs and up. This has nothing to do with LDS speculation or LDS teachings. Your dilemma would still exist even if Joe Smith had never been born. Your dilemma existed before anyone knew anything about Joseph Smith. The fact that he and us pointed out the abomination that your beliefs lay on God's doorstep, is just us being the messenger that your emperor is naked. Whether we are around to bring you the news or not, the status of your emperor remains the same.

No, jeff. You've either misunderstood, or I failed to qualify...I'm not sure which one is true here.

What DOES the Bible say, jeff??

God is NOT THE AUTHOR OF EVIL.

Theodicy has been a discipline for thousands of years and has challenged the greatest minds in church history such as St. Augustine of Hippo.

Mormonism is NOT the "answer".

Why?

Because Mormonism CHEATS by denying God His attributes as WRITTEN IN THE BIBLE.

You have NO answer, but merely have created a whole host of other dilemmas for yourselves. :eek:

Father_JD

12-10-2009, 02:22 PM

FYI, stem and ALL LDS:

Orthodox Judaism does teach that GOD CREATED EVIL.

I don't believe that, but thought you guys oughtta know that...

stemelbow

12-11-2009, 03:48 PM

Are you comparing yourself to God? I wonder just how God deals with the level of Blasphemy that mormons seem to live in... IHS jim

You tried to provide the ****ogy that having chilcren is like unto God making the creatures out of nothing. Not I.

love,
stem

stemelbow

12-11-2009, 03:51 PM

So you think you're in good company, then, huh?

love,
stem

James Banta

12-11-2009, 03:55 PM

You tried to provide the ****ogy that having chilcren is like unto God making the creatures out of nothing. Not I.

love,
stem

I was what? I said you have to teach your children right from wrong.. That had nothing to do with their creation.. Yes we use biology to procreate our children.. But that isn't all that they are now is it? They are beings of Body, Mind (some people call this soul), and Spirit.. Procreation can provide the first two of these but the Spirit of man is special and God given.. He forms that with in us as we are form within the womb.. IHS jim

stemelbow

12-11-2009, 04:02 PM

stemelbow

12-11-2009, 04:06 PM

What DOES the Bible say, jeff??

God is NOT THE AUTHOR OF EVIL.

JD, you continually think you can go outside of logic and ***ume your beliefs are somehow derived from the Bible. It is your belief system that, if taken to its logical conclusion, that forces God to the be source or author of evil, not the Bible. Not only is it illogical to ***ume your beliefs, as a whole, are derived from the BIble, but it is also illogical for you to jump outside of your belief system and draw a conclusion that does not follow. I mean keep it up if you want...it only confirms the error of your theology...but you should realize, doing so only cheats you of being able to thinking logically for yourself.

love,
stem

Bat-Man

12-11-2009, 04:18 PM

Yes we use biology to procreate our children.. But that isn't all that they are now is it? They are beings of Body, Mind (some people call this soul), and Spirit.. Procreation can provide the first two of these but the Spirit of man is special and God given.. He forms that with in us as we are form within the womb.. IHS jim
So you think mortal men and women procreate a body and mind (which some people consider to be the soul) of a child ???

By "mind" you aren't referring to the "brain", are you ?

What do you think a person's "spirit" is, Jim, and what makes you think mortal men and women are the ones who procreate the mind of a child ?

James Banta

12-11-2009, 05:53 PM

Your argument, Jim, was, and I quote..."You teach your children right from wrong.. You teach them to do right but you know they will fail at some time in their life they will sin.. You KNOW THAT.. I guess you are guilty of their sin because you knew they would commit it.. Your logic is garbage."

Essentially you did not in anyway address my argument in this unless you are trying to suggest that us having children is like unto God creating creatures out of nothing. If that is not what you meant, then you should be more clear in your attempted arguments. Either way, you still have not addressed my argument.

love,
stem

The point is you are as guilty of the sin of your children as God is guilty of the sin of mankind.. I said nothing about the means of creation.. If you what to discuss exnihilo I am up for it but it wasn't in my mind in this thread.. I was speaking about your heresy of blaming God for the sin of the world.. IHS jim

James Banta

12-11-2009, 06:13 PM

So you think mortal men and women procreate a body and mind (which some people consider to be the soul) of a child ???

By "mind" you aren't referring to the "brain", are you ?

What do you think a person's "spirit" is, Jim, and what makes you think mortal men and women are the ones who procreate the mind of a child ?

No, not the brain. I am speaking the the self awareness that is inherent in all men.. The soul is the feeling, thought, and action of a person the relationship of the intellectual and the physical.. Animals have such as part of what they are. They feel fear. The feel anger. They even feel tenderness and love.. What they don't know and have no way of knowing is that God is.. It is not that which is given by God.. The spirit that was placed into us by God is incorporeal part of humans that brings our essence of what and who we are. The part of us that makes us conscience of God.. You can disagree with that and call man the combination of Body, Mind, and Spirit.. If you wish.. You can say you have 12 eggs and I can say I have a dozen.. It means the say thing.. IHS jim

akaSeerone

12-11-2009, 06:26 PM

You are wrong stem and I will tell you why.

WHO IN THE WORLD DO YOU THINK YOU (THE CREATURE) ARE TO TELL GOD (THE CREATOR) WHAT IS RIGHT AND WHAT IS WRONG?

THE SIMPLE TRUTH OF THE MATTER IS GOD GAVE THE ANGELS AND US HUMANS FREE WILL.

YOU CAN SQUIRM AND TWIST AND MOCK ALL YOU WANT BUT YOU ARE NOT GOING TO BE ABLE TO RIGHTFULLY DENY THAT.

QUIT BLAMING GOD FOR WHAT HIS CREATION DOES.

GOD IS A LOVING GOD OTHERWISE HE WOULD NOT HAVE CREATED HIS CREATURES WITH FREE WILL AND THE CREATURES WOULD THEN BE NOTHING BUT PUPPETS AND NOT WORTHY OF CREATING!

ANDY

Bat-Man

12-11-2009, 06:28 PM

No, not the brain. I am speaking the the self awareness that is inherent in all men.. The soul is the feeling, thought, and action of a person the relationship of the intellectual and the physical.. Animals have such as part of what they are. They feel fear. The feel anger. They even feel tenderness and love.. What they don't know and have no way of knowing is that God is.. It is not that which is given by God.. The spirit that was placed into us by God is incorporeal part of humans that brings our essence of what and who we are. The part of us that makes us conscience of God.. You can disagree with that and call man the combination of Body, Mind, and Spirit.. If you wish.. You can say you have 12 eggs and I can say I have a dozen.. It means the say thing.. IHS jim
Thank you for sharing your thoughts, Jim.

Now let's see if we're in agreement on this issue as much as you may think.

I believe there are only 2 main parts to us, or to each man and woman.

1) A body (which is composed of our brain and a lot of other parts), and
2) A spirit (with our spirit being what some people refer to as our mind).

I believe our soul is the comprehensive "essence" of what we are, which in my condition now is a combination of both my spirit (or mind) and my body, but which when I die will be only a spirit until I'm translated or resurrected such that my spirit and resurrected body will re-unite and become glorified to never again be divided.

Now, let's get back to the questions I was asking you earlier:

Do you think mortal men and women procreate a body and mind of a child ???

You've already stated that by "mind" you aren't referring to our "brain", so are you saying that you think mortal men and women procreate both a body and the "mind" of a child ???

What do you think a person's "spirit" is, Jim, and what makes you think mortal men and women are the ones who procreate the mind of a child ?

James Banta

12-11-2009, 09:53 PM

Thank you for sharing your thoughts, Jim.

Now let's see if we're in agreement on this issue as much as you may think.

I believe there are only 2 main parts to us, or to each man and woman.

1) A body (which is composed of our brain and a lot of other parts), and
2) A spirit (with our spirit being what some people refer to as our mind).

I believe our soul is the comprehensive "essence" of what we are, which in my condition now is a combination of both my spirit (or mind) and my body, but which when I die will be only a spirit until I'm translated or resurrected such that my spirit and resurrected body will re-unite and become glorified to never again be divided.

Now, let's get back to the questions I was asking you earlier:

Do you think mortal men and women procreate a body and mind of a child ???

You've already stated that by "mind" you aren't referring to our "brain", so are you saying that you think mortal men and women procreate both a body and the "mind" of a child ???

What do you think a person's "spirit" is, Jim, and what makes you think mortal men and women are the ones who procreate the mind of a child ?

Yes I really believe that the mind is part of the procreative process.. The mind develops in a child's brain.. It is the total of what they are taught and what they experience.. Dogs have mind but as much as they can learn they will never become God aware.. The part of us that separates us from animals is the spirit that is created by God withing a person.. This part of what we are is what DOES make us God aware.. Our spirits longs to be with their maker. Mormons do like the idea that everything was spiritual made before the world was but the only verses in the Bible that speaks to where our spirits came from and what the order of creation is all disagree with that false teaching.. The Natural is first and then the spiritual.. That is directly from the Holy Spirit.. IHS jim

nrajeff

12-11-2009, 10:30 PM

The point is you are as guilty of the sin of your children as God is guilty of the sin of mankind..
---No, wrong. We are NOT ABLE to know which sins our children will commit, and we are not able to prevent those sins by creating our kids any OTHER way. We are not the Evangelical version of God, who is absolutely omniscient and omnipotent and sovereign. Your version of God IS all that, and therefore IS able to alter the programming of ANY of His creations, before He even creates them. We do NOT have those abilities. We are only able to bring our children into this world and do our best to teach them HOW to obey God's will. We cannot pre-program them so they will do it. But YOUR version of God IS able to do that. So if His creations do what He programmed them to do, then He is 100% responsible for that. Who is responsible for the GOOD things you do, Jim? YOU? I don't think you will agree with that. You give 100% of the credit to God. So you must give 100% of the BLAME for the BAD things you do, to Him as well.

I was speaking about your heresy of blaming God for the sin of the world..
--No, I don't blame the REAL God for the sin of the world. I only blame YOUR (incorrect) version of Him.

James Banta

12-12-2009, 08:18 AM

[nrajeff;42100]---No, wrong. We are NOT ABLE to know which sins our children will commit, and we are not able to prevent those sins by creating our kids any OTHER way. We are not the Evangelical version of God, who is absolutely omniscient and omnipotent and sovereign. Your version of God IS all that, and therefore IS able to alter the programming of ANY of His creations, before He even creates them. We do NOT have those abilities. We are only able to bring our children into this world and do our best to teach them HOW to obey God's will. We cannot pre-program them so they will do it. But YOUR version of God IS able to do that. So if His creations do what He programmed them to do, then He is 100% responsible for that. Who is responsible for the GOOD things you do, Jim? YOU? I don't think you will agree with that. You give 100% of the credit to God. So you must give 100% of the BLAME for the BAD things you do, to Him as well.
You are not able to know this even though the Holy Spirit made it clear in the words of the Apostle James:

James 2:10
For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
That pretty well spells it out doesn't? When you bring a child into the world you know they will be as guilty before a Holy God as a murderer, or an adulterer. No matter how good they may appear for man's perspective.. Because you know this the sin is on you for bringing them into the world. You can't have it both ways if God knows that a person will be evil and doesn't prevent them from being you think they should live you want to blame God and totally eliminate free agency. Then both you and God are responsible for the sins of your children sense you have full knowledge that they will sin and that sin will be just a serious and murder in the eyes of a Holy God.... AS I said before that whole premise is nonsense.. Knowing of future sin is NOT responsibility for it commission..

--No, I don't blame the REAL God for the sin of the world. I only blame YOUR (incorrect) version of Him.

If I thought for a second that God is the gods of mormonism I would think that he is responsible for the sin of the world.. That Mormon god forced Adam into earth or break God's Law and take the fruit.. They were contradictory commands.. Both couldn't be kept.. The BofM said that:

2 Nephi 2:25
Adam fell that men might be; and men are, that they might have joy.
According to your book of scripture Adam had to sin in order to bring mankind into the world.. Please tell me this isn't a contradictory command.. Tell me that God wanted Adam to turn away from Him and toward a sinful world.. After all he becames just like God when he ate the fruit, didn't he? He knew good from evil.. But the cost of being like God was death.. The mormon god was involved. Adam's sin was forced on Him. It wasn't just knowing tht Adam would sin Adam was not given a choice. He was trapped in a catch 22. The Mormon god forced Adam to do it. He wanted Adam to sin, he needed Adam to sin.. It was built into his plan that Adan had to sin.. The mormon god required sin to make a plan of his will work.. Don't eat the fruit and Adam is sinning by not having children. Eat the fruit and go directly against the command not to do so.. The mormon God Force Adam to sin. He actually built sin into his plan.. A god that works through the commission od sin.. That is garbage doctrine..

The Christian God's will was that we live forever with Him in a Paradise. In eternal love and joy.. Sin destroyed that perfect will of God so God in his eternal Mercy and Love devised the cross.. You lay in terrific sin before God and then as a "good" mormon tell God that you are worthy of entering His house and baring His name? And you call me wrong.. In God's eyes you are a filthy person, The great prophet Isaiah saw himself to be a liar before God. I liar who lived among liars.. He recognized his horrible sinful place before God. When will you do the same..

Yes we give God the credit for the good we do.. As we do that we are tools in His hand.. What is someone who is not a child of God does good? Bill Gates does a lot of GOOD in the world and take the credit for himself. You don't see a difference here? For the evil I do I blame my fallen heart.. My corrupt flesh.. Did you teach your children to lie Jeff? I know you didn't but they still lied didn't they? It is built into them to do evil.. They inherited man's desire for evil. Adam brought that on each of us.. God came into the world to correct that mess we caused.. You go right on blaming God for the evil in your heart. I am sure at the judgment that many will point their Finger at God and blame Him as they are cast into the Lake of Fire.. IHS jim

Father_JD

12-12-2009, 04:29 PM

So you think you're in good company, then, huh?

love,
stem

No, since scripture declares that God is NOT THE AUTHOR OF EVIL...that can ONLY mean that He didn't "create" evil. :rolleyes:

Father_JD

12-12-2009, 04:31 PM

JD, you continually think you can go outside of logic and ***ume your beliefs are somehow derived from the Bible. It is your belief system that, if taken to its logical conclusion, that forces God to the be source or author of evil, not the Bible. Not only is it illogical to ***ume your beliefs, as a whole, are derived from the BIble, but it is also illogical for you to jump outside of your belief system and draw a conclusion that does not follow. I mean keep it up if you want...it only confirms the error of your theology...but you should realize, doing so only cheats you of being able to thinking logically for yourself.

love,
stem

It's been explained to you several times now: SECONDARY CREATION.

Did God "create" Beethoven's fifth symphony?

Just answer that, ok, stem?

AND...does the Bible declare God NOT THE AUTHOR OF EVIL or NOT???

Just answer that, ok, stem?

stemelbow

12-13-2009, 11:25 AM

stemelbow

12-13-2009, 11:28 AM

It's been explained to you several times now: SECONDARY CREATION.

That's not an explanation, JD, its been nothing more than a cop out.

Did God "create" Beethoven's fifth symphony?

Interesting question in light of my argument. Let's see...So if God knew exactly what Beethoven would create before God created Him ex nihilo, as your belief system would ahve it...then this symphony didn't originate in Beethoven's mind, but God's. Afterall God knew the symphony long before Beethoven did, no?

Just answer that, ok, stem?

AND...does the Bible declare God NOT THE AUTHOR OF EVIL or NOT???

Just answer that, ok, stem?

I would say the Bible does not address the topic. But sadly, your belief system does force God to be the source of all evil, if taken to its logical conclusion.

love,
stem

stemelbow

12-13-2009, 11:30 AM

You've missed my point completely, Andy. I do not attribute to God evil designs, like your belief system does if taken to its logical conclusion. I find your belief system to have too many problems to be believable. I humbly accept God and HIs pronouncements.

love,
stem

akaSeerone

12-13-2009, 12:15 PM

No stem....you are wrong....that is not the logical conclusion for the Jesus authored Christian Church.

What you say is your twisting Christian beliefs to try and make your cult somehow (though impossible) seem believable.

What do you know about logic anyways...you are entrenched in the evil lds mormon cult!

If you had an ounce of logic, you would readily discern the deceptive, lying motivations of the con man and false prophet, Smith.

It is very obvious to us Christians.

Andy

Father_JD

12-13-2009, 02:27 PM

That's all fine by me, JD, since my belief system does not force upon God the creation of evil as yours does. But pointing out the very anti-biblical message of your belief system does not help your cause. So, take a deep breath and engage the argument. It'll do you some good, particularly your ability to grasp the concept of logic.

love,
stem

Your belief system is NOT BIBLICAL. I don't give a rat's patootie what you believe, stem. I've already explained to you the nature of SECONDARY CREATION...but you keep deflecting 'cause you have no reply. :rolleyes:

Father_JD

12-13-2009, 02:35 PM

Originally Posted by Father_JD
It's been explained to you several times now: SECONDARY CREATION.

That's not an explanation, JD, its been nothing more than a cop out.

That IS the explanation, stem. God did NOT create evil. God DID create Lucifer who CHOSE to be evil. Evil is SECONDARY. Got it now?? :rolleyes:

Quote:
Did God "create" Beethoven's fifth symphony?

Interesting question in light of my argument. Let's see...So if God knew exactly what Beethoven would create before God created Him ex nihilo, as your belief system would ahve it

Ex nihilo or out of pre-existing "matter"...it's IRRELEVANT. You supposedly believe that the Mormo-god is OMNISCIENT, no?

Yes or no??

...then this symphony didn't originate in Beethoven's mind, but God's. Afterall God knew the symphony long before Beethoven did, no?

So you're really saying that God wrote Beethoven's Fifth Symphony?? That's your position? Why do you think because God KNOWS everything in advance that MUST mean that He "created it"??

That's a non-sequitur, stemster.

Quote:
Just answer that, ok, stem?

Quote:
AND...does the Bible declare God NOT THE AUTHOR OF EVIL or NOT???

Just answer that, ok, stem?

I would say the Bible does not address the topic. But sadly, your belief system does force God to be the source of all evil, if taken to its logical conclusion.

The Bible declares God is HOLY, WITHOUT SIN, CAN NOT SIN, IS NOT THE AUTHOR OF EVIL and you posit, "the Bible does not address the topic"??? How is anyone supposed to tkae you seriously when you write such nonsense??? :eek:

stemelbow

12-14-2009, 09:52 AM

I replied appropriately to your deflection of appealing to secondary causes, JD. I explained how your appeal to secondary causes does not address the thrust of my argument. To which you replied....

love,
stem

stemelbow

12-14-2009, 09:54 AM

Very appropriate reply, Andy. Seeing as you nor any of your partners here can adequately address the issues I've raised it would be best for you to whine about me in particular as reply. Good show, you've helped me more than you know.

love,
stem

stemelbow

12-14-2009, 10:00 AM

Originally Posted by Father_JD
That IS the explanation, stem. God did NOT create evil. God DID create Lucifer who CHOSE to be evil. Evil is SECONDARY. Got it now?? :rolleyes:

I got your cop out long ago, JD. Again you did not address the arguments I've raised in appealing to your cop out. So its up to you at this point.

Ex nihilo or out of pre-existing "matter"...it's IRRELEVANT. You supposedly believe that the Mormo-god is OMNISCIENT, no?

So you won't answer a simple question huh? Instead you'd like to pose an unrelated question to me huh? Okay, let's allow you your attempted escape route in changing the subject here by answering your question. God is omniscient yes. I know you'll attempt to run from the question and topic, but so be it.

So you're really saying that God wrote Beethoven's Fifth Symphony?? That's your position? Why do you think because God KNOWS everything in advance that MUST mean that He "created it"??

That's a non-sequitur, stemster.

I didn't say God wrote Beethoven's Fifth Symphony. I reasoned to a logical conclusion based on your belief system. And you have run from answering the question again, JD. Did God not know Beethoven's Fifth Symphony before God created Beethoven out of nothing?

The Bible declares God is HOLY, WITHOUT SIN, CAN NOT SIN, IS NOT THE AUTHOR OF EVIL and you posit, "the Bible does not address the topic"??? How is anyone supposed to tkae you seriously when you write such nonsense??? :eek:

Thanks, JD, again for declaring how unbiblical your belief system is. But, let's just leave it there for now.

love,
stem

akaSeerone

12-14-2009, 10:08 AM

You never applied appropriately to any part of this thread.

You have been shown that everything that God created was perfect and that the angels and mankind were created with free will and that evil was a by product of creation but you just close your eyes to the truth and go on and on with your games.

You have no argument and have been proven wrong, so admit your mistake and learn from your error or move along and quit deflecting this thread.

Andy

stemelbow

12-14-2009, 10:25 AM

Here, Andy, I'm willing to hold your hand through this process, okay?

Before creating Lucifer ex nihilo, did God know each and every act Lucifer would do?

Could God have created Lucifer to not do evil, or could God have decided to just not create Lucifer knowing he was just going to be evil anyway?

I'll continue in this way, hoping you still answer the above questions....Let's see you address the argument this time okay? God created Lucifer out of nothing...He knew before creating Lucifer out of nothing all things Lucifer would do. All things Lucifer would do, are because God conceived of those things. You see if God created absolutely, as your belief system would have it, then all creations He conceived of are absolutely a result of His conception. THere really is no way around this. I welcome your efforts to refute my argument. But, it seems, you and JD have failed to actually address my argument and instead have gone on with cop outs while leaving the argument untouched.

love,
stem

akaSeerone

12-14-2009, 10:52 AM

What part of free will do you not get?

You have no argument...only your trying to judge God and blaming Him for what His creation does and that makes you (mod edit - an unbeliever).

This is a forum to expose the lie of mormonism....mod edit Your premise is false and has been proven wrong over and over.

WHO DO YOU THINK YOU ARE TO JUDGE GOD?

Learn to read God's one and only Word He has given us...The Bible while you have breath. As it stands, you are mormon and that makes you a non Christian without life. mod edit - No personal attacks
Repent or you will not get the reward you have been deceived to think you will get.

Andy

(Mod edit - "Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you."
Luke 6:27-29
:(

stemelbow

12-14-2009, 11:01 AM

What part of free will do you not get?

I get it. Incidentally I also authored a thread here which presents another untouched argument in regards to the problems of free will in consideration of your belief system. If you wish you can bring up your concerns over there.

You have no argument...only your trying to judge God and blaming Him for what His creation does and that makes you a heretic.

I did post an argument...you did not, at least not yet.

This is a forum to expose the lie of mormonism....you do not make the rules here, the Christian, Jill did that, so you can continue to ask all you want....Your premise is false and has been proven wrong over and over.

No body has proven any part of my argument wrong...and you ran from answering a few questions I offered to help you engage the argument. Why is that?

WHO DO YOU THINK YOU ARE TO JUDGE GOD?

I don't judge God. I judge your pathetic ideas of Him.

Learn to read God's one and only Word He has given us...The Bible while you have breath. As it stands, you are mormon and that makes you a non Christian without life. A hopeless wreck.

Great...so you have decided to get to the name calling--hopeless wreck. Adorable stuff, Andy.

Repent or you will not get the reward you have been deceived to think you will get.

Precious stuff.

love,
stem

akaSeerone

12-14-2009, 12:01 PM

Hey....you are the one pretending to be Christian...so yes, you are a hopelessly lost.

Andy

Bat-Man

12-14-2009, 01:13 PM

Hey....you are the one pretending to be Christian...so yes, you are a hopelessly lost.

Andy
Andy,
You're a corrupt and apostate Christian who believes you are a true Christian.

Try to not judge others based on what you REALLY are.

Okay ?

akaSeerone

12-14-2009, 01:42 PM

Why do you lie like that BM?

You are neither Christian or mormon and should not even be posting here.

Besides that you have no idea what you are talking about.

And that is fact BM.

Andy

stemelbow

12-14-2009, 01:58 PM

Oh, ANdy, you are a joy to have around (Russell complained in the other thread about not being liked by others, so I consoled him. I"ll do the same here since you guys seem to feel you don't get enough of it from us.) I think your attempt to bully ol' Batman right on outta here ranks up there in the top ten of posts that help out the LDS side more than hinders it.

love,
stem

akaSeerone

12-14-2009, 03:56 PM

Thanks for showing everyone just how out of touch with reality one must get to try and hopelessly defend the anti-Christian lds mormon cult.

Nothing you said in your post was true.

All you did is make things up to try to make us Christians look bad, but it just shows how desperate you guys are getting and it will back fire on you.

The writing is on the wall....thanks to the internet, mormonism is on it's way out.

What you need to do is repent and ask God to forgive you and accept Jesus...THE Jesus of the Bible other wise you will remain lost.

Andy

akaSeerone

12-14-2009, 03:59 PM

stemelbow

12-14-2009, 04:12 PM

Thanks for showing everyone just how out of touch with reality one must get to try and hopelessly defend the anti-Christian lds mormon cult.

Nothing you said in your post was true.

Let's see I said, "Oh, ANdy, you are a joy to have around..." But that is not true, in Andy's subjective opinion it seems.

Just for fun I also said,

"(Russell complained in the other thread about not being liked by others, so I consoled him. I"ll do the same here since you guys seem to feel you don't get enough of it from us.) I think your attempt to bully ol' Batman right on outta here ranks up there in the top ten of posts that help out the LDS side more than hinders it."

All you did is make things up to try to make us Christians look bad, but it just shows how desperate you guys are getting and it will back fire on you.

I had no intention of making anyone look bad...you're seeing that probably because of the things you are saying.

The writing is on the wall....thanks to the internet, mormonism is on it's way out.

Whooofff...what a prediction. When shall we expect this exit of mormonism deal?

love,
stem

stemelbow

12-14-2009, 04:13 PM

You have no idea what you are talking about.

I am a solid Christian in right standing with God through Jesus, the Christ.

I judge others by what the Bible say, so what you said is a lie and it will come back to haunt you.

Andy

That's merely grandstanding and deflection. Good show, Andy...again you're only helping my case here.

love,
stem

akaSeerone

12-14-2009, 04:21 PM

That's merely grandstanding and deflection. Good show, Andy...again you're only helping my case here.

love,
stem
How is telling the truth "grandstanding?"

Andy

Father_JD

12-14-2009, 05:26 PM

You sadly demonstrate that you don't know what you're talking about:

IF God is OMNISCIENT (which IS what the Bible teaches, stemmy), he most certainly knew that Beethoven would write his fifth symphony, and had to have known every note of it.

Whether created ex nihilo or by some cosmic sex between your Mormo-god and one of his celestial sweeties, doesn't affect the outcome.

It's IRRELEVANT.

God created Beethoven (indirectly) who in turn wrote his Fifth Symphony.

Beethoven's music is SECONDARY CREATION.

Got it? Finally?????

Father_JD

12-14-2009, 05:28 PM

nrajeff

12-14-2009, 10:03 PM

Did God create Beethoven's symphonies? If Beethoven was an Evangelical, his answer would probably be "yes" since Evans typically give ALL--100%--of the credit for any good thing they do, to God and to no one else. As for other Christians, such as the LDS, I think that many if not most of them would allow for the possibility that God inspired many composers like He inspired prophets and other saints. So in the case of composers like Beethoven or Handel, an LDS person probably would have no problem saying that the inspiration for the symphonies maybe came from God. If the Evans are right, and God is the "first cause" of all that is good in this universe, when who is the first cause of all that is BAD? Who dreamed up the universe in the first place? You will never let Stem walk you toward the conclusion of where your theology logically leads, because the ramifications destroy your beliefs about God.

akaSeerone

12-14-2009, 11:54 PM

lds are not Christians so you got that wrong again.

God gave Beethoven a brain....Beethoven created his own symphonies.

And Smith created an anti-Christ sham of a "religion."

Andy

akaSeerone

12-15-2009, 06:53 AM

You are getting into trouble because you are ignoring what the Bible says when it refutes your false doctrine.

1.) God gave the Angels and man free will.

2.) Along with God giving Angels and man free will, God will not go back on His Word. When God declares something or creates something it is yes and Amen.

Andy

stemelbow

12-15-2009, 11:14 AM

Okay I'll hold your hand through this too, Andy, just so you understand it. Your ***umption of what is truth pounded as fact, without reason or logic to back up your claims is merely grandstanding--akin to the gorilla who pounds his chest in the forest because he thinks he's the toughest.

love,
stem

stemelbow

12-15-2009, 11:22 AM

Yes, your deflection has already been stated, JD. Its not so much that God knew the fifth symphony (BTW thanks for finally answering the question) but that the origin of the symphony is not attributed to Beethoven, according toyour belief system, but to God's conception. Remember, according to your belief system God created out of nothing. Likewise Lucifer's evil deeds did not originate anywhere but in God's conception, according to your belief system...secondary creation notwithstanding as an attempted cop out.

I know you don't get it finally, but I'll repeat it just in case something clicks. You seem to think your belief system and my belief system agree on this point. Not so, JD, for me there was plenty in existence when God initiated the creation. For you, only God existed, thus all things that came to be originated in His own conception--including Lucifer's evil and Beethoven's fifth symphony.

love,
stem

stemelbow

12-15-2009, 11:23 AM

Andy, you are in clear disagreement with your master, JD. He says God did create Beethoven's fifth Symphony. You guys ought to get together on this.

love,
stem

Father_JD

12-15-2009, 03:03 PM

Andy, you are in clear disagreement with your master, JD. He says God did create Beethoven's fifth Symphony. You guys ought to get together on this.

love,
stem

I said nothing of the sort. I said that God created Beethoven who in turn wrote his Fifth Symphony...

SECONDARY CREATION which you run from, stemmy.

Father_JD

12-15-2009, 03:05 PM

Father_JD

12-15-2009, 03:09 PM

stemelbow

12-15-2009, 03:16 PM

No, the origin of Beethoven's symphonies LIE WITH BEETHOVEN. You keep failing to distinguish between omniscience and creation.

Let's see if your ***ertion holds up under scrutiny, JD. According to your belief system, did God know every detail of Beethoven's Fifth Symphony before Beethoven himself was created out of nothing? If so, then the actual Symphony was already known and in existence in God's conception previous to Beethoven himself. It would then, be impossible to conclude, logically anyway, that the origin of it is found within Beethoven, for God already conceived of it before Beethoven ever existed.

God did NOT "conceive" of evil, neither did He create it. He forsaw it and uses it FOR HIS OWN PURPOSES.

Now, is the Mormo-god omnicient or NOT??? :eek:

Now what kind of game of deflection are you playing now? The same question I've already answered on numerous oc***ions? My goodness, JD, your desperation is telling.

So, before Lucifer or any other being could do anything evil, even before any of them/we were created, God already conceived of evil designs, the very evil designs Lucifer would do, provided Lucifer would ever be created. You seriously are running away from logic in order to avoid this conclusion, JD? Fine by me.

love,
stem

Father_JD

12-15-2009, 04:44 PM

akaSeerone

12-15-2009, 06:14 PM

I would like to know why they are allowed to stay here when they post such blatant lies.

He cannot defend mormonism....it is impossible to Biblically defend mormonism, so they stoop to lying and playing stooooooopid games and hope no one will notice.

I guess they forgot that God is watching.

Andy

Sentinus

12-15-2009, 06:35 PM

What I think seems to be missing in all this is how central "Satan" is to the LDS plan of Salvation. One need only consider Satan's response to God in the garden as dramatized by the endowment ceremony. OR consider that without Satan Adam would never have fallen so "man may be". God in LDS theology placed two conflicting symbolic trees in the garden, the tree of knowledge and the tree of eternal life. They were already eternal beings (No need for the tree of life), and as many LDS have taught Adam and Eve were innocent like children not even knowing they were naked. Had they not partaken of the tree of knowledge they would have never been able to follow all of Gods commandments given to them upon being placed in said garden. They were commanded to multiply and replenish the Earth, to do this man HAD to fall. Adam fell that man may be remember. So in the end without Satan no fall, and without the fall no us and no need for a savior, and literally billions of unborn spirits are stuck waiting to gain physical bodies. EVIL as man calls it is central to the LDS gospel, and God within the LDS theology can NEVER conquer it. As I have been told by more than a few posters here: EVIL is an eternal thing that always existed and coexisted eternal with God. God cannot eliminate it He can only hope to thwart it by thinking two steps ahead. Yet, EVIL will always exist and has always existed outside of God's control. While Christian theology may indeed open doors that seem illogical or fallacious when taken to a worldly logical conclusion. Clearly Mormonism opens up doors that when taken to it's own logical worldly conclusions are just as illogical or even ridiculous as LDS seem to believe "Mainstream" thought on this is.

Mormonism in its attempt to answer this difficult question muddies up the waters of understanding further and in empowering man limits God. By solving one problem you create many, many, more at least in my opinion.

Kindest regards,
Sentinus

akaSeerone

12-15-2009, 07:44 PM

Are you replying to me?

I was mentioning to JD that I wondered how the mormons here get away with lying the way they do, so where you came up with all you wrote is beyond me.

However a couple of things jump out at me in what you said....

Had they not partaken of the tree of knowledge they would have never been able to follow all of Gods commandments given to them upon being placed in said garden.
A simple reading of the beginning of Genesis proves that wrong, so I really do not know where you are coming from and just what you are trying to say. Adam named the animals and God walked and talked with Adam in the Garden....the one thing that is not recorded is if they had children in the Garden or just how long they were there before Adam fell, but there is absolutely nothing in Genesis to lead us to believe that Adam had to fall to be able to "keep" God's "commandments."

They were commanded to multiply and replenish the Earth, to do this man HAD to fall.
How do mormons come up with that lie?

There is nothing in the Bible to support that.

Yet, EVIL will always exist and has always existed outside of God's control.
Evil has not always existed and don't kid yourself...God has everything under control, no matter how hard Satan tries to upset the apple cart.

Ezekiel 28

11Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,

12Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.

13Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.

14Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.

15Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

Satan was not created evil.

I do not see how mormonism solves any problems and their false doctrines sure do muddy up the waters.

Andy

Sentinus

12-15-2009, 10:30 PM

Are you replying to me?

I was mentioning to JD that I wondered how the mormons here get away with lying the way they do, so where you came up with all you wrote is beyond me.

However a couple of things jump out at me in what you said....

A simple reading of the beginning of Genesis proves that wrong, so I really do not know where you are coming from and just what you are trying to say. Adam named the animals and God walked and talked with Adam in the Garden....the one thing that is not recorded is if they had children in the Garden or just how long they were there before Adam fell, but there is absolutely nothing in Genesis to lead us to believe that Adam had to fall to be able to "keep" God's "commandments."

How do mormons come up with that lie?

There is nothing in the Bible to support that.

Evil has not always existed and don't kid yourself...God has everything under control, no matter how hard Satan tries to upset the apple cart.

Ezekiel 28

11Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,

12Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.

13Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.

14Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.

15Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

Satan was not created evil.

I do not see how mormonism solves any problems and their false doctrines sure do muddy up the waters.

Andy

I wasn't responding to anyone in particular. I was simply jumping back in after reading the many posts since my last about 3 pages ago. I just completed my finals and now have a little free time again. (4.0 this semester never thought I would say that again LOL) Anyway hope this clarifies a little.

I do not see how mormonism solves any problems

Firstly if you see no problem there of course isn't one.

Mormonism does solve some very specific problems that arise out of the theology that was preached during the 1830's and the at***ude of Americans at the time. One of which is the whole original sin thing (Thats a biggie). However, like I said in solving one problem new ones emerge, and in many instances more problems than existed before reinterpreting. LDS trade one problem for 3 or 4 in many areas of divergence with mainstream Christianity (at least this is my opinion on things.)

Kind regards,
Sentinus

stemelbow

12-16-2009, 10:48 AM

S,

Clearly Mormonism opens up doors that when taken to it's own logical worldly conclusions are just as illogical or even ridiculous as LDS seem to believe "Mainstream" thought on this is.

Mormonism in its attempt to answer this difficult question muddies up the waters of understanding further and in empowering man limits God.

ya think? Wow...I am of the opposite opinion of course. Mormonism clears up the misunderstandings that have been accepted for thousands of years. Let's consider your point further:

What I think seems to be missing in all this is how central "Satan" is to the LDS plan of Salvation.

True dat--God used Satan so the fall, which was essential, took place. But let's not get lost in the missing implication of mainstreamism either. If God did not think the fall central to His plan, then why would God, according to mainstreamism, have Satan in the garden to tempt and ultimately cause the downfall of mankind? Either way, the conclusion is the same, if you ask me. In fact, I don't see any other conclusion to make.

OR consider that without Satan Adam would never have fallen so "man may be". God in LDS theology placed two conflicting symbolic trees in the garden, the tree of knowledge and the tree of eternal life.

Good point. God, through symbolism, outlined the means to salvation even in the Garden--greatness be to Him.

They were already eternal beings (No need for the tree of life), and as many LDS have taught Adam and Eve were innocent like children not even knowing they were naked. Had they not partaken of the tree of knowledge they would have never been able to follow all of Gods commandments given to them upon being placed in said garden. They were commanded to multiply and replenish the Earth, to do this man HAD to fall. Adam fell that man may be remember. So in the end without Satan no fall, and without the fall no us and no need for a savior, and literally billions of unborn spirits are stuck waiting to gain physical bodies. EVIL as man calls it is central to the LDS gospel, and God within the LDS theology can NEVER conquer it.

I'm not sure how you conclude how LDS belief is even more ridiculous or illogical based on the above. It seems to me just the opposite. Is it worse that God provide a plan, using a rebellious one, to bring about the progress of His creations, than creating out of nothing an evil one to cause the destruction of many to most of His yet to be created out of nothing creations? Its amazing to me that anyone would conclude that mainstreamism is better in anyway. the only possible conclusion it seems to me is that mainstreamism is evil. LDS belief does not force upon God the conception of evil, nor does the Garden scenario make God out to be bad at all. Remember satan, and his designs already were, long before God formed spirits from intelligences.

love,
stem

stemelbow

12-16-2009, 10:52 AM

You're deflecting yet again:

Since you affirm that even the Mormo-god is OMNISCIENT, then even he had KNOWLEDGE of Lucifer's FUTURE rebellion, no?

Then one can apply your own accusation against your own deity:

He CONCEIVED of Lucifer's rebellion.

Do you NOW see that whether "ex nihilo" or procreating with celestial sweeties, you've got the SAME DILEMMA??

Wow...you have completely avoided my explanation, JD. Ex nihilo is a part of this because in LDS belief, evil designs and particularly Lucifer's evil designs existed long before God formed Lucifer, you and me into spirits. Its just lightyears away from the explanation of mainstreamism. If ya don't get the implications for each then its on you, JD. I've explained this time and again. Lucifer's rebellion, according to LDS, though previously known by God, did not originate in God's mind. But the opposite is true for the mainstream concept. Big difference.

love,
stem

nrajeff

12-16-2009, 11:54 AM

No. Beethoven wrote his symphonies.

----Evans have told me that humans do not create ANYTHING---only God, and God alone, can create, because the word create connotes making something from nothing, and only God can do that. Are you saying those Evans are wrong?

Father_JD

12-16-2009, 04:41 PM

----Evans have told me that humans do not create ANYTHING---only God, and God alone, can create, because the word create connotes making something from nothing, and only God can do that. Are you saying those Evans are wrong?

Yes, those Evans are wrong. ALL people are involved in SECONDARY CREATION of some kind or another. "Create" does NOT necessarily connote "something from nothing".

Give me those "Evans" numbers, jeff. I'll set them straight!! :p

Father_JD

12-16-2009, 04:44 PM

Wow...you have completely avoided my explanation, JD. Ex nihilo is a part of this because in LDS belief, evil designs and particularly Lucifer's evil designs existed long before God formed Lucifer, you and me into spirits. Its just lightyears away from the explanation of mainstreamism. If ya don't get the implications for each then its on you, JD. I've explained this time and again. Lucifer's rebellion, according to LDS, though previously known by God, did not originate in God's mind. But the opposite is true for the mainstream concept. Big difference.

love,
stem

Uh, it's YOU who hasn't refuted MY point:

IF the Mormo-deity is OMNISCIENT, he too FORESAW LUCIFER'S REBELLION.

Therefore, you must apply the SAME standard to your own concept of deity:

The Mormo-god CONCEIVED of Lucifer's evil, etc.

Our contention is the same: Lucifer's rebellion, though previously known by God, did NOT originate in God's mind.

As I said, the issue of ex nihilo, pre-existing matter is IRRELVANT since you posit the Mormo-deity as OMNISCIENT and KNEW BEFORE HAND. :rolleyes:

Father_JD

12-16-2009, 04:46 PM

My point exactly, JD. There's no need to cite scripture when your belief system, particularly on this point, is so anti-biblical. ya got a problem with that? Then address the argument. I know your reason to continually avoid the topic, but its worth seeing the amount of posts you add here in hopes to add credibility to your avoidance. Its adorable if nothing more.

love,
stem

Where's YOUR citation of scripture demonstrating your wild accusations, stem? It's because you DON'T HAVE A BIBLICAL CASE FOR YOUR NONSENSICAL MORMON BELIEFS>. :rolleyes:

Sentinus

12-16-2009, 10:40 PM

S,

ya think? Wow...I am of the opposite opinion of course. Mormonism clears up the misunderstandings that have been accepted for thousands of years. Let's consider your point further:

True dat--God used Satan so the fall, which was essential, took place. But let's not get lost in the missing implication of mainstreamism either. If God did not think the fall central to His plan, then why would God, according to mainstreamism, have Satan in the garden to tempt and ultimately cause the downfall of mankind? Either way, the conclusion is the same, if you ask me. In fact, I don't see any other conclusion to make.

Good point. God, through symbolism, outlined the means to salvation even in the Garden--greatness be to Him.

I'm not sure how you conclude how LDS belief is even more ridiculous or illogical based on the above. It seems to me just the opposite. Is it worse that God provide a plan, using a rebellious one, to bring about the progress of His creations, than creating out of nothing an evil one to cause the destruction of many to most of His yet to be created out of nothing creations? Its amazing to me that anyone would conclude that mainstreamism is better in anyway. the only possible conclusion it seems to me is that mainstreamism is evil. LDS belief does not force upon God the conception of evil, nor does the Garden scenario make God out to be bad at all. Remember satan, and his designs already were, long before God formed spirits from intelligences.

love,
stem

ya think? Wow...I am of the opposite opinion of course. Mormonism clears up the misunderstandings that have been accepted for thousands of years. Let's consider your point further:

And of course i agree it does clear up some things, but makes other things less clear, at least IMO.

True dat--God used Satan so the fall, which was essential, took place. But let's not get lost in the missing implication of mainstreamism either. If God did not think the fall central to His plan, then why would God, according to mainstreamism, have Satan in the garden to tempt and ultimately cause the downfall of mankind? Either way, the conclusion is the same, if you ask me. In fact, I don't see any other conclusion to make.

And this is my point exactly BOTH systems of finite understanding have logical faults. Your God can't control Satan, but can only use the acts Satan does to bring to p*** some form of what we call good. Yet, Mormonisms God can NEVER destroy or ultimately defeat evil. Your need to take God of the hook IMO neuters Him.

Good point. God, through symbolism, outlined the means to salvation even in the Garden--greatness be to Him.

I see it differently. The LDS God knowingly placed temptation in the Garden so that free will could be had. In this very act He acts as Satan would, by tempting, why else would the fruit have been so enticing. Next time you go through the endowment session pay very close attention to the dialogue between Satan and God..

I'm not sure how you conclude how LDS belief is even more ridiculous or illogical based on the above. It seems to me just the opposite.

I would expect no less.

Is it worse that God provide a plan, using a rebellious one, to bring about the progress of His creations, than creating out of nothing an evil one to cause the destruction of many to most of His yet to be created out of nothing creations?

Isn't it worst to have belief in a God that isn't all powerful? I see no problem with God creating that which we call in our finite view as Evil. His way is not our way. And I have no need to transfer my finite view of "right and wrong" "Good and evil" onto an all powerful creator. I need only place my faith as the created in this all knowing, all loving God to make much better decisions than I in my finite state could ever comprehend.

Its amazing to me that anyone would conclude that mainstreamism is better in anyway.

Which is why you choose to reject it. That is a logical response. However just because it doesn't make sense to you doesn't make it false.

the only possible conclusion it seems to me is that mainstreamism is evil.

Hmmmmm. This conclusion is disheartening, and in no way a new response when Mainstreamism is filtered through the LDS microscope. Your church has attacked Christianity since it's inception and continues to do so everyday. I sure hope you aren't one in the camp that believes that people like Russ should simply shut up and move on.

LDS belief does not force upon God the conception of evil, nor does the Garden scenario make God out to be bad at all.

But it does open up other doors of doctrinal issue that cannot be rectified once you take the control away from Him. Additionally that which we as finite beings determine is evil isn't necessarily bad at all. Let me give you an example. My Cousin was born with progeria, a disease that causes children to age 8-10 time faster than other children. (Imagine a child that ages like a Dog.) Now someone could ask "Why God Why did this happen?", and as a father I could see myself even possibly cursing God. Yet if you step outside of the emotion you can see how the creation of this person is Ultimately good. Because of this birth Thousands of people have come together in love and community to support their neighbors. Thousands have seen a PERFECT example of how to embrace life anew with inspirational zeal. Thousands have been affected by the outpouring of love and support, and in the end no one could view the creation of this child as evil when the whole is considered. You I feel are not looking at the picture BIG enough from the Mainstream perspective. You are stuck as my ****ogy goes in the cursing God stage. We as individuals stand but on the shore of the Ocean we call God. Just because it looks like the water ends a few hundred miles out and that the Earth seems to stop on the horizon doesn't mean that monster lay in wait to destroy. Nor does the fact that we have possibly ventured only a few feet out mean that the Ocean itself is only inches deep.

Remember satan, and his designs already were, long before God formed spirits from intelligences.

If you say so. I believe in a God that created all and in a God that before Him nothing existed, and ultimately in a God that is in control of EVERYTHING. With your hardline stance on this issue I have to wonder what your take is on the book of ***..

All the best ,
Sentinus

stemelbow

12-17-2009, 04:12 AM

I already said why...its because your beliefs are so anti-biblical in this regard.

love,
stem

stemelbow

12-17-2009, 04:30 AM

And of course i agree it does clear up some things, but makes other things less clear, at least IMO.

Fine enough. I just don't get how you reached that conclusion. We'll explore.

And this is my point exactly BOTH systems of finite understanding have logical faults. Your God can't control Satan, but can only use the acts Satan does to bring to p*** some form of what we call good. Yet, Mormonisms God can NEVER destroy or ultimately defeat evil. Your need to take God of the hook IMO neuters Him.

huh? 'Tis a straw man to suggest to LDS God cannot control Satan. Of course He can. Wait till the thousand year reign of Christ and you'll see that. To LDS God does destroy and defeat evil...that's the whole point. Are you then suggesting that to mainstreamism God will cause evil to completely stop even in Hell? That's not the general conclusion of mainstreamism from what I've seen. If hell persists in mainstreamism, then according to your logic God can't destroy or ultimately defeat evil either.

I see it differently. The LDS God knowingly placed temptation in the Garden so that free will could be had. In this very act He acts as Satan would, by tempting, why else would the fruit have been so enticing. Next time you go through the endowment session pay very close attention to the dialogue between Satan and God..

In so thinking, it seems, you are attempting to suggest, very p***ively, that to LDS God caused the fall. If the fall was a good thing, as LDS believe, then His causing such is not a bad thing at all. Its actually a benefit for His creations.

I
sn't it worst to have belief in a God that isn't all powerful?

If we're strictly speaking philosophically, then I question whether mainstreamism's God is even close to all powerful. What's so all-powerful about a creator who creates out of nothing creatures who ultimately suffer eternally? Or who initiates the conception of evil? Remember without creating, according to the logical conclusion of mainstreamism, evil never would be if God did not originally conceive of all the evil designs that ever would be.

I see no problem with God creating that which we call in our finite view as Evil. His way is not our way. And I have no need to transfer my finite view of "right and wrong" "Good and evil" onto an all powerful creator. I need only place my faith as the created in this all knowing, all loving God to make much better decisions than I in my finite state could ever comprehend.

Such is your right. 'preciate the honesty

Which is why you choose to reject it. That is a logical response. However just because it doesn't make sense to you doesn't make it false.

Fair enough. I would not suggest as much. Truthfully though, it does, in my mind, cause skepticism as to the truthfulness of mainstreamism.

Hmmmmm. This conclusion is disheartening, and in no way a new response when Mainstreamism is filtered through the LDS microscope. Your church has attacked Christianity since it's inception and continues to do so everyday. I sure hope you aren't one in the camp that believes that people like Russ should simply shut up and move on.

I see no reason for anyone to just shut up and move on. I state the opposite of Russell quite often around here. Keep piping up, Russ.

But it does open up other doors of doctrinal issue that cannot be rectified once you take the control away from Him. Additionally that which we as finite beings determine is evil isn't necessarily bad at all. Let me give you an example. My Cousin was born with progeria, a disease that causes children to age 8-10 time faster than other children. (Imagine a child that ages like a Dog.) Now someone could ask "Why God Why did this happen?", and as a father I could see myself even possibly cursing God. Yet if you step outside of the emotion you can see how the creation of this person is Ultimately good. Because of this birth Thousands of people have come together in love and community to support their neighbors. Thousands have seen a PERFECT example of how to embrace life anew with inspirational zeal. Thousands have been affected by the outpouring of love and support, and in the end no one could view the creation of this child as evil when the whole is considered. You I feel are not looking at the picture BIG enough from the Mainstream perspective. You are stuck as my ****ogy goes in the cursing God stage. We as individuals stand but on the shore of the Ocean we call God. Just because it looks like the water ends a few hundred miles out and that the Earth seems to stop on the horizon doesn't mean that monster lay in wait to destroy. Nor does the fact that we have possibly ventured only a few feet out mean that the Ocean itself is only inches deep.

But, even for LDS we can see the blessing of such a seeming curse. So I don't curse God at all for the particular situations of some people. Your reasoning holds true only if mainstreamism was the only option in regards to God...but its not.

If you say so. I believe in a God that created all and in a God that before Him nothing existed, and ultimately in a God that is in control of EVERYTHING. With your hardline stance on this issue I have to wonder what your take is on the book of ***..

All the best ,
Sentinus

All that you just attributed to God I believe the same--aside from the conclusion that before Him nothing existed. Remember I accept the Bible as the Word of God...true that may mean something other to me than it does to most mainstreamers, but that does not mean I do not see resolution to ***'s difficulty. God intends to test us all, and ***'s book proves that LDS tenet as much as any.

love,
stem

stemelbow

12-17-2009, 04:33 AM

I get your rather illogical argument, JD. Its just that such side-steps my many points. Why you keep doing that, I don't know. I don't care, frankly. I'm just hoping you catch on to the ugliness of your religious beliefs someday.

Your strawman is that God conceived of evil before Lucifer ever was, according to LDS belief. Such is not the case. You say, "The Mormo-god CONCEIVED of Lucifer's evil, etc." Such a conclusion presents us with a logical fallacy. You did not take the relevant steps to arrive at that conclusion. You are merely ***uming since God knew about it, that must mean He's the one who thought of it. Nope. Lucifer merely mimicked the evil that had already been through eternity.

love,
stem

Sentinus

12-17-2009, 11:38 AM

Fine enough. I just don't get how you reached that conclusion. We'll explore.

huh? 'Tis a straw man to suggest to LDS God cannot control Satan. Of course He can. Wait till the thousand year reign of Christ and you'll see that. To LDS God does destroy and defeat evil...that's the whole point. Are you then suggesting that to mainstreamism God will cause evil to completely stop even in Hell? That's not the general conclusion of mainstreamism from what I've seen. If hell persists in mainstreamism, then according to your logic God can't destroy or ultimately defeat evil either.

In so thinking, it seems, you are attempting to suggest, very p***ively, that to LDS God caused the fall. If the fall was a good thing, as LDS believe, then His causing such is not a bad thing at all. Its actually a benefit for His creations.

I

If we're strictly speaking philosophically, then I question whether mainstreamism's God is even close to all powerful. What's so all-powerful about a creator who creates out of nothing creatures who ultimately suffer eternally? Or who initiates the conception of evil? Remember without creating, according to the logical conclusion of mainstreamism, evil never would be if God did not originally conceive of all the evil designs that ever would be.

Such is your right. 'preciate the honesty

Fair enough. I would not suggest as much. Truthfully though, it does, in my mind, cause skepticism as to the truthfulness of mainstreamism.

I see no reason for anyone to just shut up and move on. I state the opposite of Russell quite often around here. Keep piping up, Russ.

But, even for LDS we can see the blessing of such a seeming curse. So I don't curse God at all for the particular situations of some people. Your reasoning holds true only if mainstreamism was the only option in regards to God...but its not.

All that you just attributed to God I believe the same--aside from the conclusion that before Him nothing existed. Remember I accept the Bible as the Word of God...true that may mean something other to me than it does to most mainstreamers, but that does not mean I do not see resolution to ***'s difficulty. God intends to test us all, and ***'s book proves that LDS tenet as much as any.

love,
stem

http://www.tangle.com/view_video?viewkey=ecbac650ef4967c08f95&utm_source=newsletter121609&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=weeklytopvideos

In this video I can see how God could use what we would determine as Evil to again reach out to all. The God I worship controls everything. He creates Tornadoes, He allows murder to occur, He uses death to bring life, In ALL things He is reaching out to us. I understand the LDS perspective as I once embraced it, BUT to me the idea that Satan controls the evil and God then bends that evil to meet His will doesn't bring me peace, or solace. What brings me personally peace is to look at the Tornado and seek Gods hand in the storm. What brings me peace is to consider that in the murder of one innocent God has a plan to reunite, and make whole that which is torn. It is Gods way to use death to redeem and to save. I see your concerns, and they are valid, you just aren't looking at the picture BIG enough from a "Mainstream" Perspective and therefore what you logically conclude, Rightfully so with your limited perspective of Mainstream doctrine & understanding (Not a cut BTW) is simply wrong. Where you make the mistake is in calling it evil, and IMO many "Mainstreamers" are equally guilty in their antagonistic approach to LDS doctrine. IMHO it's time for us all to take a new step, away from the Dogma our denominations have created over the years, and move towards a new path.

I am not ignoring your response to me, it just seems that we keep going round and round. My goal was not to change your mind, but to at least attempt to show you how your logical exegesis misses the mark in the BIG picture from the Mainstream perspective (A claim no doubt that you as LDS can clearly relate to especially here in a forum designed to place LDS beliefs under critique.)

Kind regards,
Sentinus

stemelbow

12-17-2009, 01:42 PM

http://www.tangle.com/view_video?viewkey=ecbac650ef4967c08f95&utm_source=newsletter121609&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=weeklytopvideos

In this video I can see how God could use what we would determine as Evil to again reach out to all. The God I worship controls everything. He creates Tornadoes, He allows murder to occur, He uses death to bring life, In ALL things He is reaching out to us. I understand the LDS perspective as I once embraced it, BUT to me the idea that Satan controls the evil and God then bends that evil to meet His will doesn't bring me peace, or solace. What brings me personally peace is to look at the Tornado and seek Gods hand in the storm. What brings me peace is to consider that in the murder of one innocent God has a plan to reunite, and make whole that which is torn. It is Gods way to use death to redeem and to save. I see your concerns, and they are valid, you just aren't looking at the picture BIG enough from a "Mainstream" Perspective and therefore what you logically conclude, Rightfully so with your limited perspective of Mainstream doctrine & understanding (Not a cut BTW) is simply wrong. Where you make the mistake is in calling it evil, and IMO many "Mainstreamers" are equally guilty in their antagonistic approach to LDS doctrine. IMHO it's time for us all to take a new step, away from the Dogma our denominations have created over the years, and move towards a new path.

I'm just presenting some arguments. If they are wrong because I haven't looked at the picture Big enough then by all means start explaining. Otherwise such a response just seems deflective. There's plenty of room to step away from our perspective dogmas and move towards a new path, as you say, but its still possible to present arguments for better understanding. Ya got something then share it. If ya don't share it, then I'm left with the arguments I"ve presented and have yet to be refuted.

I don't get what exactly you're explaining by God creating Tornadoes and uses them for good, as if that somehow differs from LDS belief. my original point here is that mainstream belief seems to require that God created Lucifer for the purpose of being evil. I mean surely if He created ex nihilo He could have created him in a way that would not have led to him being the very evil one. This again has nothing to do with Tornadoes. It has to do with where evil originated.

I am not ignoring your response to me, it just seems that we keep going round and round. My goal was not to change your mind, but to at least attempt to show you how your logical exegesis misses the mark in the BIG picture from the Mainstream perspective (A claim no doubt that you as LDS can clearly relate to especially here in a forum designed to place LDS beliefs under critique.)

Kind regards,
Sentinus

If it misses the mark then please explain. I'm still waiting on that.

love,
stem

Sentinus

12-17-2009, 06:08 PM

I'm just presenting some arguments. If they are wrong because I haven't looked at the picture Big enough then by all means start explaining. Otherwise such a response just seems deflective. There's plenty of room to step away from our perspective dogmas and move towards a new path, as you say, but its still possible to present arguments for better understanding. Ya got something then share it. If ya don't share it, then I'm left with the arguments I"ve presented and have yet to be refuted.

I don't get what exactly you're explaining by God creating Tornadoes and uses them for good, as if that somehow differs from LDS belief. my original point here is that mainstream belief seems to require that God created Lucifer for the purpose of being evil. I mean surely if He created ex nihilo He could have created him in a way that would not have led to him being the very evil one. This again has nothing to do with Tornadoes. It has to do with where evil originated.

If it misses the mark then please explain. I'm still waiting on that.

love,
stem

Lets revisit the OP to refresh the goal of this thread.

Was Lucifer created by God, out of nothing, to do good or evil?

Doing the will of God is "good" even if doing so is determined to be "evil" by others. Consider Nephi's murder with the sword of Laban to obtain scripture. Murder and theft were considered "good".

Was Lucifer immediately after creation good? If so when, specifically, did he become evil?

If God intended to create an Angel responsible for carrying out tasks that we deem "Evil" as finite beings, then yes God's "evil" creation was indeed "Good".
Your hang up is your insistence that "Good" and "Evil" are in conflict. Doing what we call "Evil" is "Good" if God commands it..

Combine my response above with this info in the link below.
http://whatjewsbelieve.org/explanation07.html

The other part of this is, why are we all created, according to the mainstream Christian religion, at birth?

Christians don't believe this See Jeremiah 1:1-5

That is both our spirits and our physical bodies, but Lucifer was created only as spirit?

Me thinks you have a few concepts mixed. LDS believe Satan is a Spirit only and brother of Us and Jesus. Mainstream Christians believe that Lucifer is a created Angel. IMO Angels have a body,Lucifer being an Angel would have one as well.

Why did God decide to create those who would only be spirits and those who would have physical bodies and spirit bodies?

IF This dichotomy exists, only God can answer why. Why not ask..

Kind regards,
Sentinus

Father_JD

12-17-2009, 07:40 PM

I already said why...its because your beliefs are so anti-biblical in this regard.

love,
stem

You haven't demonstrated as such, stemster. :rolleyes:

Father_JD

12-17-2009, 07:46 PM

I get your rather illogical argument, JD. Its just that such side-steps my many points. Why you keep doing that, I don't know. I don't care, frankly. I'm just hoping you catch on to the ugliness of your religious beliefs someday.

LOL. You'd better be rea-a-a-aly careful, stem, calling God's BIBLICAL TRUTH as "ugly" and prefering MAN-MADE DOCTRINES OF JOSEPH SMITH!! :eek:

Your strawman is that God conceived of evil before Lucifer ever was, according to LDS belief. Such is not the case. You say, "The Mormo-god CONCEIVED of Lucifer's evil, etc." Such a conclusion presents us with a logical fallacy. You did not take the relevant steps to arrive at that conclusion. You are merely ***uming since God knew about it, that must mean He's the one who thought of it. Nope. Lucifer merely mimicked the evil that had already been through eternity.

No, no, no. You didn't get it, stem. YOU'RE the one who is arguing for a god who CONCEIVED, ORIGINATED LUCIFER'S FUTURE REBELLION AND EVIL IN HIS OWN MIND.

I'm merely pointing out the absurdity of your position is accusing the Biblical God of being the AUTHOR OF EVIL and that your own accusation is EQUALLY VALID IN BEING APPLIED TO THE MORMO-GOD WHO IS SUPPOSEDLY OMNISCIENT.

That's WHY "ex nihilo" vs. "pre-existing spirits" IS IRRELEVANT, stem. The Mormo-god FORESAW THE FUTURE EVIL AND REBELLION OF LUCIFER, so using your own "logic" the Mormo-god HAD TO HAVE CONCEIVED LUCIFER'S EVIL, etc.

This you have NOT refuted. :rolleyes:

stemelbow

12-18-2009, 07:37 AM

I guess you just want to continue to repeat without dealing with what I've said. Okay...

I get your rather illogical argument, JD. Its just that such side-steps my many points. Why you keep doing that, I don't know. I don't care, frankly. I'm just hoping you catch on to the ugliness of your religious beliefs someday.

Your strawman is that God conceived of evil before Lucifer ever was, according to LDS belief. Such is not the case. You say, "The Mormo-god CONCEIVED of Lucifer's evil, etc." Such a conclusion presents us with a logical fallacy. You did not take the relevant steps to arrive at that conclusion. You are merely ***uming since God knew about it, that must mean He's the one who thought of it. Nope. Lucifer merely mimicked the evil that had already been through eternity.

love,
stem

stemelbow

12-18-2009, 07:52 AM

Lets revisit the OP to refresh the goal of this thread.

Doing the will of God is "good" even if doing so is determined to be "evil" by others. Consider Nephi's murder with the sword of Laban to obtain scripture. Murder and theft were considered "good".

The explanation was so a nation would not dwindle in unbelief. The explanation I see from your side is nilch in comparison.

If God intended to create an Angel responsible for carrying out tasks that we deem "Evil" as finite beings, then yes God's "evil" creation was indeed "Good".
Your hang up is your insistence that "Good" and "Evil" are in conflict. Doing what we call "Evil" is "Good" if God commands it..

I understand that would be the necessary explanation--kinda like the sword of Laban explanation. The problem is, of course, then if all that God does is good, then there is no evil, if you take your beliefs to their logical conclusion. If the explanations I've offered remain unrefuted, as they have as far as I can tell, then God knowing Lucifer's outcome and yet still creating him out of nothing means Lucifer's supposed evil is really good for mainstreamers, since all of Lucifer's deeds originated in God's conception. Sadly, what this does to your beliefs is, even someone's rape is good in God's eyes. Tragic...

Combine my response above with this info in the link below.
http://whatjewsbelieve.org/explanation07.html

Thanks for the link, I"m not sure how it helps.

Christians don't believe this See Jeremiah 1:1-5

I agree mainstreamism does not line up well with the Bible in many instances this is one. This was ultimately settled in the 6th century, or about then, as far as I recall. Some bishop finally considered all ideas of pre-existence--the spirit existing pre-mortality--heresy. Its stuck ever since for mainstreamism. Sure Origen reasoned pre-mortal existence and others jumped on board, but after he died everyone started to consider him a heretic and argued his points. The philosophical wrangling persisted through the life of Augustine with no definite conclusion. Some argued that spirits were all created before the earth's creation, this was nixed as heresy...some argued traducianism...others argued that the spirit was formed after the body by God putting His breath into the body. I'd like to understand this better because its been a little while since I've looked into it, but if you're interested I'd get "When Souls had Wings" by Terryl Givens. Here's a summarized version: http://www.fairlds.org/FAIR_Conferences/2007_When_Souls_Had_Wings.html

Me thinks you have a few concepts mixed. LDS believe Satan is a Spirit only and brother of Us and Jesus. Mainstream Christians believe that Lucifer is a created Angel. IMO Angels have a body,Lucifer being an Angel would have one as well.

Perhaps in your opinion ANgels have bodies. But according to mainstreamism that is not hte case.

IF This dichotomy exists, only God can answer why. Why not ask..

Kind regards,
Sentinus

That's fine. some things are attributed to God's mysterious knowledge for most religionists. I accept that.

love,
stem

Sentinus

12-18-2009, 02:32 PM

The explanation was so a nation would not dwindle in unbelief. The explanation I see from your side is nilch in comparison.

I understand that would be the necessary explanation--kinda like the sword of Laban explanation. The problem is, of course, then if all that God does is good, then there is no evil, if you take your beliefs to their logical conclusion. If the explanations I've offered remain unrefuted, as they have as far as I can tell, then God knowing Lucifer's outcome and yet still creating him out of nothing means Lucifer's supposed evil is really good for mainstreamers, since all of Lucifer's deeds originated in God's conception. Sadly, what this does to your beliefs is, even someone's rape is good in God's eyes. Tragic...

Thanks for the link, I"m not sure how it helps.

I agree mainstreamism does not line up well with the Bible in many instances this is one. This was ultimately settled in the 6th century, or about then, as far as I recall. Some bishop finally considered all ideas of pre-existence--the spirit existing pre-mortality--heresy. Its stuck ever since for mainstreamism. Sure Origen reasoned pre-mortal existence and others jumped on board, but after he died everyone started to consider him a heretic and argued his points. The philosophical wrangling persisted through the life of Augustine with no definite conclusion. Some argued that spirits were all created before the earth's creation, this was nixed as heresy...some argued traducianism...others argued that the spirit was formed after the body by God putting His breath into the body. I'd like to understand this better because its been a little while since I've looked into it, but if you're interested I'd get "When Souls had Wings" by Terryl Givens. Here's a summarized version: http://www.fairlds.org/FAIR_Conferences/2007_When_Souls_Had_Wings.html

Perhaps in your opinion ANgels have bodies. But according to mainstreamism that is not hte case.

That's fine. some things are attributed to God's mysterious knowledge for most religionists. I accept that.

love,
stem

The explanation was so a nation would not dwindle in unbelief. The explanation I see from your side is nilch in comparison.

However you gotta spin it to justify murder and theft is fine by me. God commanded it and it was deemed good, my point is only strengthened by your response.

if all that God does is good, then there is no evil,

Finally, I think you get it. :)

if you take your beliefs to their logical conclusion.
Why are you so bent on making God logical to your finite and very limited view?

If the explanations I've offered remain unrefuted, as they have as far as I can tell,

Sadly, you seem unable to simply except the answers you have been given.

Lucifer's supposed evil is really good for mainstreamers, since all of Lucifer's deeds originated in God's conception.

From our limited and finite position of course it doesn't appear to be what we call "good", but that doesn't mean our perception is correct.

what this does to your beliefs is, even someone's rape is good in God's eyes. Tragic...

Whats tragic is your inability to understand that Gods ways are not our own. The God of the Bible orders, war, plagues, famine, genocide, abduction, slaughtering of infants and children, and you bawk at a mere rape. Hmmmm

Thanks for the link, I"m not sure how it helps.

Hopefully it adds to your understanding of the intended concepts found in the Bible instead of those that many LDS and Mainstreamers have developed to make sense of something they simply don't want to accept. Ultimately that God is responsible for everything- that which we call "Good" and that which we call "Evil". And just because we designate them as such doesn't make it so. What happens here is just what is, why not trust that God knows best and accept that your finite mind cannot fully comprehend an infinite en***y.

I agree mainstreamism does not line up well with the Bible in many instances this is one.

I am "Mainstream" and I do not stand alone.. Sorry your limited exposure to Mainstream Christians skews your understanding of things greatly..

This was ultimately settled in the 6th century, or about then, as far as I recall.

No it wasn't. What happened is that men with good intentions attempted best they could to address and understand things in their day. Mainstreamers are not required to accept the findings of ECF's as anything but opinion. We are encouraged to turn to the Scriptures and seek God for ourselves. Period end of story..

Some bishop finally considered all ideas of pre-existence--the spirit existing pre-mortality--heresy.

Some Bishop with no real authority to do anything but speculate for himself. I think you remember things a little out of context, if you wouldn't mind I would like more context and actual quotes if you want to pursue this line of reasoning further.

Its stuck ever since for mainstreamism.
Obviously not..

Sure Origen reasoned pre-mortal existence and others jumped on board, but after he died everyone started to consider him a heretic and argued his points.

See my above request for more detailed info if you want to pursue this line of reasoning.

The philosophical wrangling persisted through the life of Augustine with no definite conclusion. Some argued that spirits were all created before the earth's creation, this was nixed as heresy...some argued traducianism...others argued that the spirit was formed after the body by God putting His breath into the body. I'd like to understand this better because its been a little while since I've looked into it, but if you're interested I'd get "When Souls had Wings" by Terryl Givens. Here's a summarized version: http://www.fairlds.org/FAIR_Conferences/2007_When_Souls_Had_Wings.html

Thanks for the link..

Perhaps in your opinion ANgels have bodies. But according to mainstreamism that is not hte case.

Hmmm Fallen angels came to Earth and procreated with humans, yet they are spirits? So perhaps when they fall they gain physical bodies?

Adam is Micheal in LDS theology so He (Micheal) has a physical body?

Speaking of this how were Peter, James and John able to physically interact with Adam outside the garden when they weren't even born yet? It requires touching to receive and learn signs, tokens, and penalties (Adam received Penalties I am sure) Did Peter, James, and John have Pre existent bodies? Anyway..

And of course not all "Mainstreamers" agree with each other. The status of whether or not angels have bodies is a non essential, and ultimately something that the Bible does not clarify..

That's fine. some things are attributed to God's mysterious knowledge for most religionists. I accept that.

This includes LDS religionists as well. Why else would LDS leaders continually instruct members to build those proverbial shelves?

Kind regards,
Sentinus

stemelbow

12-18-2009, 03:24 PM

However you gotta spin it to justify murder and theft is fine by me. God commanded it and it was deemed good, my point is only strengthened by your response.

Coming from a totally different paradigm we can still comprehend the effects of each other's belief system. For instance, to you God created all things out of nothing, for me it just ain't that way...so for me its not so easy to suggest God commanded and it was deemed good. There has to be a reason for it to be good.

Finally, I think you get it. :)

If there is no evil whatsoever, then why are any consigned to endless misery? You've added such a twist with this there really is no evil, that you've argued out of reality if you ask me.

Why are you so bent on making God logical to your finite and very limited view?

I'm not. I'm bent of showing how the logic of your belief system is bad, because I think good is good and needs to be understood.

Sadly, you seem unable to simply except the answers you have been given.

I simply do except the attempted answers given because, frankly, they are not dealing with my argument or, as you have done, taken evil out of existence completely which just seems unreal.

From our limited and finite position of course it doesn't appear to be what we call "good", but that doesn't mean our perception is correct.

So, when you say "our" you mean your's and mine, right? It seems you are agreeing that your belief system at least appear evil, but it doesn't matter because we just can't grasp a good enough perspective to say otherwise? I gotta say, such is nothing more than wishful thinking it seems to me.

Whats tragic is your inability to understand that Gods ways are not our own. The God of the Bible orders, war, plagues, famine, genocide, abduction, slaughtering of infants and children, and you bawk at a mere rape. Hmmmm

I understand that God's ways are not our own. But that in itself does not imply rape or murder is really good and not bad all by themselves. I do not just buy into the OT claim that God ordered everything. It seems just as likely that people claimed God ordered it all. Granted there are exceptions, but those exceptions do not equate to evil because God gave a rational reason for them.

Hopefully it adds to your understanding of the intended concepts found in the Bible instead of those that many LDS and Mainstreamers have developed to make sense of something they simply don't want to accept. Ultimately that God is responsible for everything- that which we call "Good" and that which we call "Evil". And just because we designate them as such doesn't make it so. What happens here is just what is, why not trust that God knows best and accept that your finite mind cannot fully comprehend an infinite en***y.

Well I don't accept creation ex nihilo so I don't have to accept the idea that we just can't know what is good and what is evil. And frankly, I can't imagine anyone reasonably doing so.

I am "Mainstream" and I do not stand alone.. Sorry your limited exposure to Mainstream Christians skews your understanding of things greatly..

I've been all ears, but that hardly means your ideas of there not really being evil are generally accepted among mainstream folk. In fact, I'd wager most mainstream folk would consider such an idea heresy.

No it wasn't. What happened is that men with good intentions attempted best they could to address and understand things in their day. Mainstreamers are not required to accept the findings of ECF's as anything but opinion. We are encouraged to turn to the Scriptures and seek God for ourselves. Period end of story..

Some Bishop with no real authority to do anything but speculate for himself. I think you remember things a little out of context, if you wouldn't mind I would like more context and actual quotes if you want to pursue this line of reasoning further.

Obviously not..

See my above request for more detailed info if you want to pursue this line of reasoning.

Thanks for the link..

I would recommend the book itself. The problem with your idea of bishops settling matters is not authoritative, then ought to extend to the Trinity explanation...among other things. I mean these are establish tenets of mainstreamism. To go outside the Trinity explanation is bad and results in not being mainstream.

Hmmm Fallen angels came to Earth and procreated with humans, yet they are spirits? So perhaps when they fall they gain physical bodies?

Adam is Micheal in LDS theology so He (Micheal) has a physical body?

Speaking of this how were Peter, James and John able to physically interact with Adam outside the garden when they weren't even born yet? It requires touching to receive and learn signs, tokens, and penalties (Adam received Penalties I am sure) Did Peter, James, and John have Pre existent bodies? Anyway..

And of course not all "Mainstreamers" agree with each other. The status of whether or not angels have bodies is a non essential, and ultimately something that the Bible does not clarify..

Okay, but from my perspective such an idea is on the outside looking in to mainstreamism. Find me a credible, modern day mainstream Christian who accepts pre-mortal existence of all beings.

This includes LDS religionists as well. Why else would LDS leaders continually instruct members to build those proverbial shelves?

Kind regards,
Sentinus

Of course...I intended that as an implication.

love,
stem

Father_JD

12-18-2009, 05:06 PM

You demonstrate that you don't have a clue WHAT God meant by calling Himself, "The Alpha and the Omega...the First and the Last...the Beginning and the End", stemmy.

Father_JD

12-18-2009, 05:09 PM

Clearly you didn't understand a thing from my post, stem.

I was using the legitimate Ad Hominem argument in which one argues his opponent's position to its logical conclusion.

Your only escape from your own dilemma which you pose which is equally applicable to the Mormo-god, is to "cop out" and posit the Mormo-god is NOT OMNISCIENT.

But as typical Mormon who you are, you wanna have your Green Goddess Jell-O and eat it, too.

Father_JD

12-18-2009, 05:11 PM

So you concede the point that your beleif system shows God to be the very source of all evil? Interesting concession, JD. As for my belief system....Col. 1 does not in anyway refute it. Nice try though.

love,
stem

You weren't paying attention, stem. God is NOT THE SOURCE OF ALL EVIL. The biblical position is GOD IS NOT THE AUTHOR OF EVIL.

Plain and simple.

The answer is SECONDARY CREATION which you keep running away from. :rolleyes:

Sentinus

12-19-2009, 03:10 PM

Find me a credible, modern day mainstream Christian who accepts pre-mortal existence of all beings.

First off define "Exist". And ask yourself if God didn't think you existed would you?

One thing I like about the Endowment is that first all things were created spiritually and then realized physically only after the spiritual creation. One must think of something before one can create. For most the very idea that God thought of us is the definition of pre-existent life. To most Mainstreamers I know "Nothing" exists outside of God.. Hence the belief of creation ex nilio. This idea of creating from nothing makes absolutely no sense to us as "reasonable" and "logical" human beings. It forces us to wonder "How can something come from nothing?" and then we have people who later come along and say that since its illogical it MUST be false. This is why you can't grasp that "Good" and "Evil" are only definitions applied by finite beings and is why you cannot grasp "Something" from "Nothing". You and many, many people LDS and Non want to impose mans finite reasoning onto an infinite God. It just doesn't work, and IMO NEVER will.

Kind regards,
Sentinus

nrajeff

12-19-2009, 03:54 PM

Yes, those Evans are wrong. ALL people are involved in SECONDARY CREATION of some kind or another. "Create" does NOT necessarily connote "something from nothing".
---So God is NOT the author of everything that exists?

Give me those "Evans" numbers, jeff. I'll set them straight!! :p

---Here is their address: "Carm, c/o Matt Slick, The Internet." :D

Father_JD

12-20-2009, 05:45 PM

---So God is NOT the author of everything that exists?

No. The Bible declares God is NOT THE AUTHOR OF EVIL, jeff. ;)

---Here is their address: "Carm, c/o Matt Slick, The Internet." :D

Har har. :p

stemelbow

12-21-2009, 11:51 AM

Even more...you demonstrate you only think you know what you're talking about. In reality all you got is a pile of ambiguous quotes which you use to mean something they don't necessarily mean, then proclaim, "I, JD, Speak for God". Talk about false prophets.

love,
stem

stemelbow

12-21-2009, 11:52 AM

Sentinus

12-21-2009, 12:10 PM

You argued sans logic, JD. That's the whole point. I've already explained how your silly attempt at being logical, for once, is nothing more than your misunderstanding of the issues presented. It was an adorable show, JD.

love,
stem

Do you take lessons in condescension or is it a natural gift?

Care to address my post?? If not cool..

Kind regards,
Sentinus

Edited to add. I have just read a few other exchanges between you and JD. It seems that you two have a mutual way of trading punches so please ignore my post as far it concerns your responses to JD.

stemelbow

12-21-2009, 01:01 PM

Sentinus

12-21-2009, 01:17 PM

I appreciate your edit. Yes, JD and I have been at it for years, and I admit to mirroring the approaches that come my way. I don't say its a good thing but sometimes I find it the best way to get somewhere with him....I do the same with others. He might say I started the condescension...I don't know. Its turned kinda fun in a sick way, and in another way it gets us to the point pretty quickly.

I didn't see your post. I'll recheck.

love,
stem

I appreciate your edit.

No prob, just want to be fair. You both have a gift IMO... :D

I didn't see your post. I'll recheck.

Thanks. http://www.waltermartin.com//forums/showpost.php?p=43172&postcount=228

Kind regards,
Sentinus

Father_JD

12-21-2009, 01:28 PM

You argued sans logic, JD. That's the whole point. I've already explained how your silly attempt at being logical, for once, is nothing more than your misunderstanding of the issues presented. It was an adorable show, JD.

love,
stem

I see you've jettisoned your pet phrase of, "bald ***ertion" to "an adorable show", stem...or are you a pod person who did away with the real stemmy? :eek:

I've explained it to you several times now:

Your only escape is to posit that the Mormo-deity isn't omniscient. ;)

stemelbow

12-21-2009, 01:30 PM

I already explained my escape for which you haven't addressed, JD. I haven't wholly adopted an adorable show, but it does describe your gaming here quite well. Stay tuned we'll see if it sticks.

love,
stem

Father_JD

12-21-2009, 01:32 PM

stemelbow

12-21-2009, 01:33 PM

First off define "Exist". And ask yourself if God didn't think you existed would you?

One thing I like about the Endowment is that first all things were created spiritually and then realized physically only after the spiritual creation. One must think of something before one can create. For most the very idea that God thought of us is the definition of pre-existent life. To most Mainstreamers I know "Nothing" exists outside of God.. Hence the belief of creation ex nilio. This idea of creating from nothing makes absolutely no sense to us as "reasonable" and "logical" human beings. It forces us to wonder "How can something come from nothing?" and then we have people who later come along and say that since its illogical it MUST be false. This is why you can't grasp that "Good" and "Evil" are only definitions applied by finite beings and is why you cannot grasp "Something" from "Nothing". You and many, many people LDS and Non want to impose mans finite reasoning onto an infinite God. It just doesn't work, and IMO NEVER will.

Kind regards,
Sentinus

It seems youwould claim creation ex nihilo was and then came a creation out of something. Such is not the case--creation ex nihilo doesn't really appear until much later in time. But I ask for you to prove your ***ertion--that creation ex nihilo was then came an alternative. We can go from there in any sort of investigation. It seems to me,as I said before, creation ex nihilo wasn't adopted as officially Christian dogma until hundreds of years after Christ.

love,
stem

Sentinus

12-21-2009, 03:32 PM

It seems youwould claim creation ex nihilo was and then came a creation out of something. Such is not the case--creation ex nihilo doesn't really appear until much later in time. But I ask for you to prove your ***ertion--that creation ex nihilo was then came an alternative. We can go from there in any sort of investigation. It seems to me,as I said before, creation ex nihilo wasn't adopted as officially Christian dogma until hundreds of years after Christ.

love,
stem

creation ex nihilo wasn't adopted as officially Christian dogma until hundreds of years after Christ.

An even better place to start would be for you to prove that this statement is indeed factual..

Kind regards,
Sentinus

stemelbow

12-21-2009, 03:56 PM

JD, I've already answered this. Your just playing games now--creating an adorable show.

love,
stem

stemelbow

12-21-2009, 04:07 PM

An even better place to start would be for you to prove that this statement is indeed factual..

Kind regards,
Sentinus

Okay.

According to Hatch, this theory penetrated the Christian community through Tatian in the second half of the second century:

With Basilides [a second century Gnostic philosopher], the conception of matter was raised to a higher plane. The distinction of subject and object was preserved, so that the action of the Transcendent God was still that of creation and not of evolution; but it was "out of that which was not" that He made things to be . . . . The basis of the theory was Platonic, though some of the terms were borrowed from both Aristotle and the Stoics. It became itself the basis for the theory which ultimately prevailed in the Church. The transition appears in Tatian [ca. 170 A.D.]78

Found here: http://www.fairlds.org/Restoring_the_Ancient_Church/chap03.html

Also to note if/when the question arises:

The earliest Christians, as Hatch intimates, believed the Jewish doctrine81 of creation from chaos. For instance, Justin Martyr wrote, "And we have been taught that He in the beginning did of His goodness, for man's sake, create all things out of unformed matter . . . ."82 Peter himself echoed the picture presented in Genesis 1:1-2 of a watery chaos from which the world was created. The New English Bible translates these p***ages in the following way: "In the beginning of creation . . . the earth was without form and void, with darkness over the face of the abyss, and a mighty wind that swept over the surface of the waters." (Genesis 1:1-2 NEB) "There were heavens and earth long ago, created by God's word out of water and with water . . . ." (2 Peter 3:5 NEB)

From the same place. I'd link the originals but I couldn't find them on-line. Hopefully this will get the point across and get us moving onto something.

love,
stem