So is Evan Jesus the father of Lucifer? Y or N? [Archive]

Father_JD

11-14-2009, 06:20 PM

I never saw an answer from you guys on that question.

Nonsense, jeff. You must not have looked very hard. ;)

Here are some T/F statements to help you get to where your Christology ends up:

1. To Evangelicals, Jesus created every thing and every spirit in existence (except His own, of course). T/F

True, jeff. That IS what Col. 1 teaches.

2. Therefore, to Evangelicals, Jesus is the creator of Lucifer. T/F

True. And not His "spirit brother".:rolleyes:

3. The Bible mentions "the father of spirits." (Heb. 12:9) This refers to Jesus, since to Evangelicals, Jesus is the creator of all spirits. T/F

False. The context from Heb. 12 clearly shows God the Father being referred to as "the father of spirits". Why? Because God is TRIUNE.

4. Lucifer is a very evil spirit. T/F

False. Lucifer was created as a very GOOD spirit. He rebelled and became "Satan", a very evil spirit. Remember your own doctrine of "Free Agency", jeff? Do you think only LDS believe in some form of this? :eek:

5. Therefore, to Evangelicals, Jesus (the father of spirits) is the father of Lucifer (a very evil spirit). T/F

False. God the Father is referred to as the "father of spirits". You must consider that "father" of "spirits" does NOT signify some fleshy deity having cosmic sex with one of his hottie goddess wives, procreating spirit "babies", whether angelic or human. :p

nrajeff

11-14-2009, 09:19 PM

Thanks for taking the bai...er, I mean, answering the questions, FJD. But a couple of your answers seem troubling.

False. The context from Heb. 12 clearly shows God the Father being referred to as "the father of spirits". Why? Because God is TRIUNE.

---But you already stated that Jesus is the creator of all spirits. How can the Person of Son be the person who created all spirits, yet the Person of the FATHER be the person who is the father of spirits?

False. Lucifer was created as a very GOOD spirit.
---I never asked about what Lucifer USED to be. I asked about what he IS. Didn't you watch the Clinton impeachment hearings? Now answer the question that I asked, not the one you wanted me to ask because it lets you weasel.

He rebelled and became "Satan", a very evil spirit. Remember your own doctrine of "Free Agency", jeff? Do you think only LDS believe in some form of this? :eek:
---No, I don't think we are the only ones who believe in a form of it; we are just the only ones with the CORRECT form of it. :D

False. God the Father is referred to as the "father of spirits". You must consider that "father" of "spirits" does NOT signify some fleshy deity having cosmic sex with one of his hottie goddess wives, procreating spirit "babies", whether angelic or human.

---I can consider that. Did YOU consider it during those decades you were LDS? But I don't think you have explained how the Person of the Son can be the creator of all spirits, yet the Person of the Father is the father of spirits. How does that make any sense? Except to a Modalist, I mean. Are you a Modalist? Is that how it makes sense to you?

Billyray

11-14-2009, 09:55 PM

But I don't think you have explained how the Person of the Son can be the creator of all spirits, yet the Person of the Father is the father of spirits. How does that make any sense? Except to a Modalist, I mean. Are you a Modalist? Is that how it makes sense to you?

Because Christians and LDS use the term "Father" differently. LDS believe that each and every spirit is the product of the sexual union between God the Father and one of his wives. Thus each person is the LITERAL spiritual son of God according to LDS. Christians do NOT believe that we are the literal sons of God but become sons of God by adoption at the time that we are born again. That means that there are some who are not sons of God, this runs contrary to the LDS point of view which teach that ALL of us are sons of God.

Fig-bearing Thistle

11-14-2009, 10:12 PM

False. The context from Heb. 12 clearly shows God the Father being referred to as "the father of spirits". Why? Because God is TRIUNE.

That makes God the Father the father of Satan. Isn't God the Father also the father of Jesus?

Father_JD

11-14-2009, 10:14 PM

Thanks for taking the bai...er, I mean, answering the questions, FJD. But a couple of your answers seem troubling.

Only troubling to one who can't think outside of the Mormon "box", i.e. "Father" must mean one who procreated children, not understanding Biblical usage is DIFFERENT.

Quote:
False. The context from Heb. 12 clearly shows God the Father being referred to as "the father of spirits". Why? Because God is TRIUNE.

---But you already stated that Jesus is the creator of all spirits. How can the Person of Son be the person who created all spirits, yet the Person of the FATHER be the person who is the father of spirits?

And I've already told you: God (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) is ONE GOD. What does the Bible say, jeff? In some mysterious way, ALL THREE persons were involved in creation. I'm merely pointing out to you that the context of Heb. 12 is clearly referring to God the Father.

Quote:
False. Lucifer was created as a very GOOD spirit.

---I never asked about what Lucifer USED to be. I asked about what he IS. Didn't you watch the Clinton impeachment hearings? Now answer the question that I asked, not the one you wanted me to ask because it lets you weasel.

You wrote, "Lucifer" and I answered accordingly, jeff. Lucifer REBELLED, and became SATAN who IS evil. So why is this such a stumbling block for you seeing you supposedly believe in "Free Agency"??? :eek:

Quote:
He rebelled and became "Satan", a very evil spirit. Remember your own doctrine of "Free Agency", jeff? Do you think only LDS believe in some form of this?

---No, I don't think we are the only ones who believe in a form of it; we are just the only ones with the CORRECT form of it.

LOL. Your "correct" form is UNBiblical, jeff.

Quote:
False. God the Father is referred to as the "father of spirits". You must consider that "father" of "spirits" does NOT signify some fleshy deity having cosmic sex with one of his hottie goddess wives, procreating spirit "babies", whether angelic or human.

---I can consider that. Did YOU consider it during those decades you were LDS? But I don't think you have explained how the Person of the Son can be the creator of all spirits, yet the Person of the Father is the father of spirits. How does that make any sense? Except to a Modalist, I mean. Are you a Modalist? Is that how it makes sense to you?

Because God is TRIUNE, jeff. And I'm really glad you brought this up because it highlights their ONENESS IN BEING which transcends the Mormon "One in purpose only" doctrine.

Scripture declares ALL three persons co-created everything:

Gen 1:1 ¶ In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. (Understood generally to be referring to God the Father and yet...)

Gen 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness [was] upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

Understood to mean the Holy Spirit.

Col 1:16 For by him (Jesus) were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all [things] he might have the preeminence.

Col 1:19 ¶ For it pleased [the Father] that in him should all fulness dwell;

So here we have scripture that declare:

God the Father CREATED.
God the Holy Spirit CREATED.
God the Son CREATED.

Your difficulty in understanding that "Father" could be applied to the Son as well is because you can't look at it from a TRIUNE perspective, Mormonism having separated Father, Son, and Holy Spirit into THREE SEPARATE GODS.

Here the Son is called, "Father", jeff...so what about that also? Is it possible the Biblical usage of "father" transcends the mundane, literal understanding of Mormons?? :eek:

Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Billyray

11-14-2009, 10:20 PM

That makes God the Father the father of Satan. Isn't God the Father also the father of Jesus?

How are you defining "Father"?

Father_JD

11-14-2009, 10:20 PM

That makes God the Father the father of Satan. Isn't God the Father also the father of Jesus?

Your difficulty in understanding biblical usage is because of your indoctrination that "Father" MUST mean one who "procreates" children. Hence Mormon CONFUSION, Fig.

Jesus is GOD INCARNATE and is ETERNAL DEITY. When the Bible speaks of Jesus as the "Son", it connotes distinction from the Father, and yet the "Son" is fully divine; scripture declares Jesus as "monogenais", which means "uniquely begotten".

Lucifer is a CREATED BEING, a FALLEN angel. Biblical usage is different here, meaning "Father of Spirits" in a creator sense.

The FACT that Jesus is UNCREATE, and angels, humans are CREATE necessitates a different usage for "Father" depending on CONTEXT.

Father_JD

11-14-2009, 10:21 PM

How are you defining "Father"?

Mormons understand "Father" in only one literal way, Billyray:

A male person who procreates children with women. Hence their extreme difficulty in understanding Biblical usage of the term. :rolleyes:

Fig-bearing Thistle

11-14-2009, 10:23 PM

Your difficulty in understanding biblical usage is because of your indoctrination that "Father" MUST mean one who "procreates" children. Hence Mormon CONFUSION, Fig.

Jesus is GOD INCARNATE and is ETERNAL DEITY. When the Bible speaks of Jesus as the "Son", it connotes distinction from the Father, and yet the "Son" is fully divine; scripture declares Jesus as "monogenais", which means "uniquely begotten".

Lucifer is a CREATED BEING, a FALLEN angel. Biblical usage is different here, meaning "Father of Spirits" in a creator sense.

The FACT that Jesus is UNCREATE, and angels, humans are CREATE necessitates a different usage for "Father" depending on CONTEXT.

Nevertheless, you do believe that God the Father is both father (in a creator sense) to satan and created his spirit, yes?

Father_JD

11-14-2009, 10:29 PM

Nevertheless, you do believe that God the Father is both father (in a creator sense) to satan and created his spirit, yes?

No, I believe that God the Father created Lucifer, via Jesus the Son (cf Col. 1) and created him as a beautiful angelic being who later rebelled, THEN becoming "Satan".

Got it? ;)

Billyray

11-14-2009, 10:36 PM

Mormons understand "Father" in only one literal way, Billyray:

A male person who procreates children with women. Hence their extreme difficulty in understanding Biblical usage of the term. :rolleyes:
Right, maybe Fig could provide evidence for this definition and his comment about Jesus as noted below.

Isn't God the Father also the father of Jesus?

And what about the following reference

John 8:44 "Ye are of your father the devil. . ."

Father_JD

11-14-2009, 10:56 PM

Mormons, who normally take everything literal are suprisingly "figurative" when it comes to Jesus telling the Pharasees that they were of their FATHER, THE DEVIL!!!

What they can't understand is the term "Father" in regards to God is ALWAYS FIGURATIVE...but NO, JS told them their fleshy deity had sex with his goddess wives and therefore procreated Jesus, Lucifer and us as iddy-biddy spirit chillin'.

nrajeff

11-14-2009, 11:15 PM

But the fact that LDS take "Ye are of your father the devil" to be a metaphor, proves that we don't take every reference to the word father literally.

Father_JD

11-15-2009, 12:47 AM

But the fact that LDS take "Ye are of your father the devil" to be a metaphor, proves that we don't take every reference to the word father literally.

Whatever you take literally OR metaphorically is not conditioned by the Biblical context (as it is with Christians), jeff, it's completely and solely conditioned by what JS and the Mormon Church TOLD YOU TO BELIEVE. :eek:

nrajeff

11-16-2009, 04:59 AM

Whatever you take literally OR metaphorically is not conditioned by the Biblical context (as it is with Christians), jeff, it's completely and solely conditioned by what JS and the Mormon Church TOLD YOU TO BELIEVE:eek:

------But YOU told Fig "Your difficulty in understanding biblical usage is because of your indoctrination that "Father" MUST mean one who "procreates" children."

As we just proved, you made a false statement. Is your telling falsehoods about us completely and solely conditioned by what the Episcopal Church TOLD YOU TO BELIEVE? :eek:

Sentinus

11-16-2009, 05:26 PM

I never saw an answer from you guys on that question. Here are some T/F statements to help you get to where your Christology ends up:

1. To Evangelicals, Jesus created every thing and every spirit in existence (except His own, of course). T/F

2. Therefore, to Evangelicals, Jesus is the creator of Lucifer. T/F

3. The Bible mentions "the father of spirits." (Heb. 12:9) This refers to Jesus, since to Evangelicals, Jesus is the creator of all spirits. T/F

4. Lucifer is a very evil spirit. T/F

5. Therefore, to Evangelicals, Jesus (the father of spirits) is the father of Lucifer (a very evil spirit). T/F

My answer to the above in all cases is "Not exactly". Each of the above question is far to simplistic for a true or false response, and could literally take multiple threads on each topic to cover them all.

To ask a question to steer this question into a more LDS focused discussion.

In your opinion is "God the father" the father of Lucifer as far as LDS doctrine is concerned?

If so- how exactly is He the father as pertaining to LDS doctrine?

If not- why did God create something evil as pertaining to LDS doctrine?

I will leave you with this-

NRA,

Is it possible that there are some things about God that the LDS church simply doesn't know or answer?

If so is it not just as possible that, that which we as man define as right and wrong is neither in the sight of God, and therefore makes logical exegesis like your OP and my response questions irrelevant in coming to know God as He/She really is?

Kind regards,
Sentinus

Fig-bearing Thistle

11-16-2009, 06:34 PM

No, I believe that God the Father created Lucifer, via Jesus the Son (cf Col. 1) and created him as a beautiful angelic being who later rebelled, THEN becoming "Satan".

Got it? ;)

Still that makes God (via the Son) the creator-father of the first rebel, right?

Is it un-biblical to be a father to something because you created it?

Billyray

11-16-2009, 06:41 PM

Still that makes God (via the Son) the creator-father of the first rebel, right?

Is it un-biblical to be a father to something because you created it?

Maybe I am missing something but what is your point of trying to subs***ute father for creator?

nrajeff

11-18-2009, 12:04 AM

My answer to the above in all cases is "Not exactly". Each of the above question is far to simplistic for a true or false response, and could literally take multiple threads on each topic to cover them all.
---Well, it was not my expectation or intention that responses would require that much time and verbiage. So I am not sure what to say at this point.

To ask a question to steer this question into a more LDS focused discussion.

In your opinion is "God the father" the father of Lucifer as far as LDS doctrine is concerned?
---Of course.

If so- how exactly is He the father as pertaining to LDS doctrine?
---LDS believe the Bible where it refers to the Person of the Father as the father of spirits. There is not much doctrine in the way of "how that works" details.

I will leave you with this-
NRA,
Is it possible that there are some things about God that the LDS church simply doesn't know or answer?
--Of course, and what I just said in answer to the previous question is evidence of that.

If so is it not just as possible that, that which we as man define as right and wrong is neither in the sight of God, and therefore makes logical exegesis like your OP and my response questions irrelevant in coming to know God as He/She really is?
--It is possible. It just seems logical to me that God wants OUR ideas about what is right and wrong, to be similar to His own. Otherwise, our whole existence becomes something of a joke. I mean, if our belief that it's wrong to rape and pillage is actually not something that God also thinks is wrong, then the whole 10 Commandments thing is a farce. As well as the Bea***udes. One of the reasons I believe it's wrong to hurt others is because I think Jesus feels the same way. If I am mistaken there, and Jesus actually approves of and WANTS us to hurt our fellowman, then life is meaningless and we might as well rape, pillage, and be merry for tomorrow we might die and find out that Jesus will high-five us for doing it.

Father_JD

11-19-2009, 09:43 PM

------But YOU told Fig "Your difficulty in understanding biblical usage is because of your indoctrination that "Father" MUST mean one who "procreates" children."

As we just proved, you made a false statement. Is your telling falsehoods about us completely and solely conditioned by what the Episcopal Church TOLD YOU TO BELIEVE? :eek:

Yes, ONLY MORMONS understand "Father" as one who MUST procreate children, jeff. Why? 'Cause that's what the LDS Church tells you HOW to understand those verses.

You have no argument, jeff. Sorry. :rolleyes:

Father_JD

11-19-2009, 09:45 PM

Still that makes God (via the Son) the creator-father of the first rebel, right?

Absolutely. NOTHING or NO ONE has EVER existed PRIOR to God. Why do you think He calls Himself, "THE FIRST AND THE LAST, THE BEGINNING AND THE END, THE ALPHA AND OMEGA"????????

Completely lost on Mormons.

Is it un-biblical to be a father to something because you created it?

Not at all. That's the PRIMARY MEANING of "Father" when applied to God. :cool:

alanmolstad

11-19-2012, 07:16 PM

Sir

11-19-2012, 07:49 PM

The term "father" really only applies to a father/son relationship.

No such relationship exists between Jesus and Satan...

So while God is the creator of all things, and as Satan is a thing, so he is created by God....

But God cant be really said to the the "father" of Satan as they dont have they type of relationship.

Wooohoooo!!!!!

I always said Alan has ignored everyone on the board so now he posts to threads 3 years old and to posters no longer around.

Looks like he is going for EXACTLY 3 years now!!!! Way to go! Maybe alan is simply looking for posts exactly 3 years old and then responding to them. LOLOLOL

alanmolstad

11-19-2012, 07:54 PM

I believe in the Garden where we have some quotes of Satan speaking , we find that Satan never called the Lord "Father".

I get the feeling that Satan does not think of God as his father...

dberrie2000

11-23-2012, 07:20 AM

[COLOR="Purple"]I never saw an answer from you guys on that question. Here are some T/F statements to help you get to where your Christology ends up:

1. To Evangelicals, Jesus created every thing and every spirit in existence (except His own, of course). T/F

That may be an evangelical position--but not a Biblical one:

Hebrews 12:9

King James Version (KJV)

9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

alanmolstad

11-23-2012, 09:45 AM

So as I was saying.....

We can believe that God is the creator of all people and things, this is true.

and God created the mighty angel that fell from heaven and became Satan.

But we cant really say the the Lord is satan's "father" as the term "father" is a special term of relationship...and that relationship does not exist with them two.

Our Lord is Satan's "God"
Our Lord is Satan's "Creator"

But unless we have a very clear verse where God calls Satan "My son".....or a very clear verse where Satan calls the Lord, "My father"...we just better not jump ahead and claim that is the way the two address each other.

We do see Satan call the Lord "God"......and I think thats about all we will find in the Bible on this subject that can be pointed to as supportable.

Now as for the idea that God is the "faher" of all spirits?....Thats where we have to always keep in mind that this idea of "all' is very, very selective in the Bible....
An example would be in reading how Eve is said to be the mother of all living.......
This is clearly an error as Adam was alive at the time, and Eve was not his mother....
And what of birds, cows, and fish?...they too were part of the "living" at the time and so is Eve truly the mother of all life or all living?.......

The answer is that the Bible is very selective in how it may use the term "all" a times.

In this way i can say that my Lord is the father of all men, but at the same time understand that by my use of the term "all" I mean all the saved Christians, and not of the Lost who are of their "father" the Devil.

In a debate with Jesus the Jewish leaders were saying that god was "their father" and it was Jesus who pointed out that this simply was not true at all.

So this means that according to Jesus, the Lord God is NOT the father of all men, even if He is the creator of all men.....
So it is in the same way clear that God is NOT the father of all the spiritual beings that he alone created....

dberrie2000

12-18-2012, 08:02 AM

Originally Posted by nrajeff View Post
I never saw an answer from you guys on that question. Here are some T/F statements to help you get to where your Christology ends up:

1. To Evangelicals, Jesus created every thing and every spirit in existence (except His own, of course). T/F

dberrie----That may be an evangelical position--but not a Biblical one:

Hebrews 12:9----King James Version (KJV)

9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the [COLOR="Red"]Father of spirits, and live?

So as I was saying.....

We can believe that God is the creator of all people and things, this is true.

and God created the mighty angel that fell from heaven and became Satan.

But we cant really say the the Lord is satan's "father" as the term "father" is a special term of relationship...and that relationship does not exist with them two.

I was wondering--what part of "Father" of spirits are we not understanding?

God the Father is the Father of all spirits--if He is not--then could you reveal to us what other God is the Father of those spirits? And that is a paternal connection.

And those spirits are the offspring of God:

Acts 17:29----King James Version (KJV)

29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

Alan--offspring are always of the same species as their Father.

dberrie2000

12-21-2012, 01:57 PM

Originally Posted by nrajeff View Post
I never saw an answer from you guys on that question. Here are some T/F statements to help you get to where your Christology ends up:

1. To Evangelicals, Jesus created every thing and every spirit in existence (except His own, of course). T/F

dberrie----That may be an evangelical position--but not a Biblical one:

Hebrews 12:9----King James Version (KJV)

9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

Originally Posted by alanmolstad ---So as I was saying.....

We can believe that God is the creator of all people and things, this is true.

and God created the mighty angel that fell from heaven and became Satan.

But we cant really say the the Lord is satan's "father" as the term "father" is a special term of relationship...and that relationship does not exist with them two.

I was wondering--what part of "Father" of spirits are we not understanding?

God the Father is the Father of all spirits--if He is not--then could you reveal to us what other God is the Father of those spirits? And that is a paternal connection.

And those spirits are the offspring of God:

Acts 17:29----King James Version (KJV)

29 Forasmuch then as we [COLOR="Red"]are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

Alan--offspring are always of the same species as their Father.

Bump for Alan

alanmolstad

12-21-2012, 04:33 PM

Alan--offspring are always of the same species as their Father.Jesus told the people against him that they were like their Father the Devil....

Thus ends the argument.

The word "Father" connotates a relationship....as does the word Son.

As this is not present with the Devil and the Lord, we can thereby say and be 100% connect that the Lord is NOT the father of Satan, nor his demons.

dberrie2000

12-21-2012, 08:07 PM

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post---I was wondering--what part of "Father" of spirits are we not understanding?

Hebrews 12:9----King James Version (KJV)

9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

God the Father is the Father of all spirits--if He is not--then could you reveal to us what other God is the Father of those spirits? And that is a paternal connection.

And those spirits are the offspring of God:

Acts 17:29----King James Version (KJV)

29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

Alan--offspring are always of the same species as their Father.

Jesus told the people against him that they were like their Father the Devil....

Thus ends the argument.

No! That was a reference to the flesh--not the spirit.Satan is not the Father of the first spirit, as the scriptures show.

The word "Father" connotates a relationship....as does the word Son.

As this is not present with the Devil and the Lord,

Yes it is--unless you can show what other God Fathered satan or any other spirit. God the Father is the Father of all spirits. There are no scriptures that state any other God Fathered spirits.

alanmolstad

12-21-2012, 09:22 PM

So to review...

The term "Father" talks about relationship, and thus God is not the "Father" of satan and the fallen angels.

Just as God is not the father of men who do not believe.

Now this is not to say that God is not the "Creator" of Satan and the fallen angels, for God is the ONLY creator.

But Jesus teaches us that only they who believe have God as their "Father"
just as Jesus says that they who do not believe have Satan as their "Father"

This is also true of the word "Son"
The word son is a term that talks about a "relationship" and can be used in the Bible of people that are not actually related by blood .

So "father" and "Son" talk about a relationship, that satan does not have with God.

But "creator" and "creature" is how the Lord and Satan are related.

alanmolstad

12-22-2012, 06:44 AM

any questions?

dberrie2000

12-22-2012, 06:44 AM

So to review...

The term "Father" talks about relationship, and thus God is not the "Father" of satan and the fallen angels.

Yes He is--and until you can show a God that did Father any spirits other than God the Father, the scripture stands as is:

Hebrews 12:9----King James Version (KJV)

9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

Where does it state only some spirits?

Just as God is not the father of men who do not believe.

All men had a spirit before they believed. And if a baby died in infancy--that spirit returned to God, who gave it. That was before they believed.

Alan--you are confusing the adoption with the origin of the spirit. We are adopted through faith in Christ--that has nothing to do with Fathering of the Spirit--anymore than it has anything to do with fathering of the flesh. The flesh is also present before the adoption--and that is fathered also by a particular father.

Now this is not to say that God is not the "Creator" of Satan and the fallen angels, for God is the ONLY creator.

And this is how that Biblical record states that creation occurs:

Hebrews 12:9----King James Version (KJV)

9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

If God the Father is the only creator--then He Fathered all spirits.

That's a paternal connection--Father. All spirits are Fathered by God the Father--and we are His offspring:

Acts 17:29----King James Version (KJV)

29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

Paul's audience included unbelievers.

alanmolstad

12-22-2012, 06:53 AM

Yes He is--and until you can show a God that did Father any spirits.

God is the creator of all things,

But God is only "Father" to believers.

This is the teaching of Jesus at JOHN 8:44 "You belong to your father, the devil,..."

So as you can see, Satan is called the "Father" of some creatures.

alanmolstad

12-22-2012, 06:55 AM

Now the reason when we say that some people have God as their "Father" and other people have Satan as their "Father" is that this term is not being used to talk about a blood connection in the Bible.

We know this is true because at many other places in the Bible we see a "Father/Son" terms used for two people that are not connected by blood.

alanmolstad

12-22-2012, 06:58 AM

So to review again:

The term "FATHER" is used in the bible to help us understand the relationship between two people and does not mean that they must have a blood in common.

Many times in the bible the word "son" for example is used of men who were not related at all to the other person.
But they shared a special relationship and so the use of the term "Son and "Father" is correct.

This means that God is not the Father of Satan, even if God is the creator of Satan.

alanmolstad

12-22-2012, 07:07 AM

as for the phrase "All spirits"?....that is easly understood when we compare scripture with scripture and read that Eve is said to be the mother of "All living"

Does all mean all there?....NO!

Adam was alive and Eve was not his mother.

And lets not forget that there were birds that were alive, and trees, and fish, etc...LOL

So when we read the phrase "Eve is the mother of all life" or "Mother of all living" we have to edit down the term "All" to mean a very limited amount of the living or life.

We do this even if on the page it simply reads "All life"

So the rule we have to keep in mind in the Bible is that "All" does not mean "everyone"

The context shows us this is the only way to understand the words...

So when the Bible says "father of all spirits" we can understand this to mean all believers.

God is not the Father of they who do not believe as I have shown above.
therefore God is not the father of Satan and the fallen angels

dberrie2000

12-22-2012, 08:40 AM

as for the phrase "All spirits"?....that is easly understood when we compare scripture with scripture and read that Eve is said to be the mother of "All living"

Does all mean all there?....NO!

Adam was alive and Eve was not his mother.

You will have to argue that one out with the Bible.

But God the Father is the Father of all spirits. If He is not--please identify who you believe is. The scriptures identify God the Father as the Father of all:

Ephesians 4:4-6---King James Version (KJV)

4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

dberrie2000

12-22-2012, 08:45 AM

God is the creator of all things,

But God is only "Father" to believers.

Again--the spirit was in man before he even reaches the age to which a belief is possible.

This is the teaching of Jesus at JOHN 8:44 "You belong to your father, the devil,..."
So as you can see, Satan is called the "Father" of some creatures.

But not of their spirits. God the Father is identified as the Father of all spirits--and we His offspring.

Ephesians 4:4-6---King James Version (KJV)

4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

dberrie2000

12-22-2012, 08:47 AM

So to review again:

The term "FATHER" is used in the bible to help us understand the relationship between two people and does not mean that they must have a blood in common.

All men have blood in common. All spirits have a common Father. Please identify a scripture that states spirits have different Fathers.

alanmolstad

12-22-2012, 08:58 AM

Again--the spirit was in man before he even reaches the age to which a belief is possible.

.Again, I can only tell you what the Bible teaches.
And in the words of Christ we do see taught that some people have God as their father, and some people have Satan as their father.

I also know that once you have God as your father, NOTHING can take you from his hand.....

The verses that teach this are :
John 8:44 "You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire..."

and

John 10:29 "My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all[a]; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand."

So what this is teaching is that Some people have God as their Father, and some people have satan as their father.
But once God is your Father satan can not take you away and make himself your new father.

There are NO LOST children in God's family.

alanmolstad

12-22-2012, 09:01 AM

All men have blood in common. All spirits have a common Father. Please identify a scripture that states spirits have different Fathers.

again, I can only tell you what the bible says, and it says that some people have God as their father, and some people have Satan as their father.

This is what it says clearly in black and white so we cant misunderstand it.

Now if you believe that people are Spirits, then this is teaching that some Spirits have God as their father and some Spirits have Satan as their father....

alanmolstad

12-22-2012, 09:06 AM

Again--the spirit was in man before he even reaches the age to which a belief is possible.

But not of their spirits. God the Father is identified as the Father of all spirits--and we His offspring.

Ephesians 4:4-6---King James Version (KJV)

4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

in the final words of the verse you see the identy of the "all" listed....."you"

So from the start of this section of the Bible we are dealing with a listing of why God is Our father and not the father of the unbelievers.
We have the faith, we have the baptism, we have the hope, ,,,,we in the christian church are the ONLY ONES that have such things in this list.

And they are the reasons I can Call god my "Father" and the unbelievers can not.
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

The above context is clearly dealing only with the Christian church.

The church is the "All" that is being talked about .

The whole context of this section is aimed at the teachings of the Christian church.
consider the one baptism, the faith, the one hope, the "calling"

Clearly this whole section of Scripture is dealing with the faith and that fact that god is "our father"

but as we know the unbeliever does not have God as their father, then we have to ask _ "who is the Father of the lost and the fallen angels?"......answer: SATAN!

dberrie2000

12-22-2012, 09:09 AM

Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post---God is the creator of all things,

But God is only "Father" to believers.

dberrie---Again--the spirit was in man before he even reaches the age to which a belief is possible.

Alanmolstad--This is the teaching of Jesus at JOHN 8:44 "You belong to your father, the devil,..."
So as you can see, Satan is called the "Father" of some creatures.

dberrie---But not of their spirits. God the Father is identified as the
Father of all spirits--and we His offspring.

Ephesians 4:4-6---King James Version (KJV)

4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Again, I can only tell you what the Bible teaches.

The Bible teaches no other thing than God the Father being the Father of all spirits--including Christ's spirit.

And in the words of Christ we do see taught that some people have God as their father, and some people have Satan as their father.

But not the Father of their spirits. If God is the creator of all things, as you state--then you are going to have to find some other explanation to your scripture--it cannot mean Fathering spirits--nor creating them in any way. Your attempt here will fail you.

also know that once you have God as your father, NOTHING can take you from his hand.....

How are you relating this to God the Father being the Father of all spirits--and we His offspring? This is pertaining to the adoption--and happens after our belief, and after our spirit has inhabited our bodies. That all come after the spirit--not before it.

The evidence of that is all babies that die, their spirits return to the Father, and that before they have any belief.

Obviously--the spirit is there before belief. And the scriptures explain that God the Father is the Father of all spirits--belief or not.

alanmolstad

12-22-2012, 09:12 AM

The Bible teaches no other thing than God the Father being the Father of all spirits--including Christ's spirit.

Yes it does, I just showed you the verse,,,,

alanmolstad

12-22-2012, 09:14 AM

. If God is the creator of all things, as you state--
Yes, God is the creater of all things.

God is the creator of satan just like god is the creator of the sun and the moon and all the stars.

But God is only the father of they who worship him in truth and have a father/son relationship with him.

This is why Jesus said that unbelievers have satan as their father.

alanmolstad

12-22-2012, 09:19 AM

So to review>

The term "Father" in the Bible is not talking about sex, or a blood relationship.

The term "Father" simply means that you have a special loveing relationship that is across blood lines at times.

This is why in the bible we see people called someone"Father" or someone's "son" that are not related by blood family.

The term simply is talking about the emotional bonds between people that is shared.

This is why God can be the creator of Satan, and yet not his Father.

This is why God can be the creator of an unbeliever and not his father too...

alanmolstad

12-22-2012, 09:22 AM

In many ways, the term "father' is like how the term "First born" is undersood.

many people just look at the term "Firstborn" and come away thinking that its simply always talking about the "First person Born"

But thats wrong.

The way the Bible makes use of the term we find that it has really nothing to do with the birthing order at all!

This is why the Bible will call someone by the term "Firstborn" that was actually Born later in order.

dberrie2000

12-22-2012, 09:24 AM

dberrie---But not of their spirits. God the Father is identified as the
Father of all spirits--and we His offspring.

Ephesians 4:4-6---King James Version (KJV)

4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post---Again, I can only tell you what the Bible teaches.

dberrie---The Bible teaches no other thing than God the Father being the Father of all spirits--including Christ's spirit.

6 One God and Father of all

Alanmolstad----And in the words of Christ we do see taught that some people have God as their father, and some people have Satan as their father.

dberrie---But not the Father of their spirits. If God is the creator of all things, as you state--then you are going to have to find some other explanation to your scripture--it cannot mean Fathering spirits--nor creating them in any way. Your attempt here will fail you.

Alanmolstad---also know that once you have God as your father, NOTHING can take you from his hand.....

dberrie---How are you relating this to God the Father being the Father of all spirits--and we His offspring? This is pertaining to the adoption--and happens after our belief, and after our spirit has inhabited our bodies. That all come after the spirit--not before it.

The evidence of that is all babies that die, their spirits return to the Father, and that before they have any belief.

Obviously--the spirit is there before belief. And the scriptures explain that God the Father is the Father of all spirits--belief or not.

Yes it does, I just showed you the verse,,,,

The verse you quoted was to men who had reached their full age--and was a pronouncement on those who chose evil over good.

The spirit was already long since in them. It came before those whom the pronouncement was made upon chose to do evil--and became satan's.

Your claim that belief is the dividing point of whether the spirit is of satan or God the Father is belied by the fact that all babies have a spirit that if they die--those spirits return to God--before belief.

Belief is pertinent to the adoption--but not to the Father of the Spirit. The scriptures are plain--God the Father is the father of all, as to the spirit.

Your argument is further complicated by the fact you claim that God is the Creator of all. Satan has created none--nor Fathered any spirit.

But the scriptures have spirits as the offspring of God:

Acts 17:29----King James Version (KJV)

29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

Billyray

12-22-2012, 09:42 AM

Belief is pertinent to the adoption--but not to the Father of the Spirit. The scriptures are plain--God the Father is the father of all, as to the spirit.

God/Jesus created us all.

dberrie2000

12-22-2012, 10:05 AM

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
Belief is pertinent to the adoption--but not to the Father of the Spirit. The scriptures are plain--God the Father is the father of all, as to the spirit.

God/Jesus created us all.

The scriptures beg to differ, on account of the spirit:

Ephesians 4:4-6---King James Version (KJV)

4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

alanmolstad

12-22-2012, 10:18 AM

The scriptures beg to differ, on account of the spirit:

Ephesians 4:4-6---King James Version (KJV)

4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
yes, all this section is dealing with the Christian church.
the church is the only one with the faith, the calling, the baptism, etc....so we are the only ones who can call god our "Father"

for the unbelievers can not call God their father as jesus has so clearly pointed out, they are of their father the devil.

dberrie2000

12-22-2012, 10:36 AM

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post---The scriptures beg to differ, on account of the spirit:

Ephesians 4:4-6---King James Version (KJV)

4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

yes, all this section is dealing with the Christian church.

God is the Father of all, and above all--regardless of any church.

the church is the only one with the faith, the calling, the baptism, etc....so we are the only ones who can call god our "Father"

for the unbelievers can not call God their father as jesus has so clearly pointed out, they are of their father the devil.

Again--that is only pertinent to those who have reached the age whereby they can exercise faith in Christ, or deny Him. The spirit of man is there before that time.

That is what you and Billyray are going to have to face--if you are going to make a viable argument.

The spirit is present before the adoption. God is the Father of all spirits--regardless of the adoption, just as our earthly parents are our parents regardless of the adoption.

James Banta

12-22-2012, 11:52 AM

God is the Father of all, and above all--regardless of any church.

Again--that is only pertinent to those who have reached the age whereby they can exercise faith in Christ, or deny Him. The spirit of man is there before that time.

That is what you and Billyray are going to have to face--if you are going to make a viable argument.

The spirit is present before the adoption. God is the Father of all spirits--regardless of the adoption, just as our earthly parents are our parents regardless of the adoption.

He is the father of all creation then right.. Fish, birds, sheep, and loins.. God created all of them as well.. Are such also His children? That is what I hear from you.. God is the father of mules.. You will have to see the difference in saying God is the father of all creation and that He is the Father of all people He has adopted as His own children.. After all The Holy Spirit in John 1:12 makes it clear that we become His children and that through faith in Jesus.. IHS jim

alanmolstad

12-22-2012, 01:19 PM

He is the father of all ......

God is the creator of all....but he is not the father of all....

Billyray

12-22-2012, 03:03 PM

The scriptures beg to differ, on account of the spirit:

The scriptures teach that Jesus created everything. Right?

James Banta

12-23-2012, 10:45 AM

God is the creator of all....but he is not the father of all....

Right! So all of creation is His offspring.. Only those who have faith in Jesus are His children.. IHS jim

alanmolstad

12-23-2012, 11:40 AM

all things are his creation

But only they who worship him in truth are his children and He their Father.

dberrie2000

12-24-2012, 09:12 AM

The scriptures teach that Jesus created everything. Right?

No. The4 scriptures state that He made all things that were made:

John 1:3---King James Version (KJV)

3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Christ did not make His God and Father--nor did Christ Father our spirits. That was ***igned to God the Father--and is the reason we refer to God the Father as the Father.

dberrie2000

12-24-2012, 09:26 AM

He is the father of all creation then right.. Fish, birds, sheep, and loins.. God created all of them as well..

That is usually ***igned to Jesus Christ. God the Father is designated as the Father of spirits, concerning "us":

Ephesians 4:4-6---King James Version (KJV)

4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Are such also His children?

There is nothing within the Biblical record that states anything but our spirits are Fathered by God the Father--and we His offspring.

Acts 17:29----King James Version (KJV)

29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

That is what I hear from you.. God is the father of mules.. You will have to see the difference in saying God is the father of all creation and that He is the Father of all people He has adopted as His own children..

I have never made the claim that God fathered mules--but the scriptures do state that God the Father did indeed Father spirits:

Hebrews 12:9---King James Version (KJV)

9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

I see nothing in there that would include anything but the spirits of His offspring.

After all The Holy Spirit in John 1:12 makes it clear that we become His children and that through faith in Jesus.. IHS jim

But you are referring to the adoption here--which takes place years after our birth--and after we already have a spirit in our bodies.

That is likened to stating that the adoption means that the fathers of our flesh is made void by we becoming children of God through the adoption. James--our earthly fathers fathered our flesh regardless of any adoption or not--that is a separate event--our flesh was fathered before any adoption took place---just as our spirits were Fathered before our adoption--and were present years before our adoption. Spirits are present for those who never will receive the adoption. Spirits are present in babies that die before the adoption.

That is the fact that all need to address--diverting to the adoption cannot explain that, and remains your onus to deal with.

alanmolstad

12-25-2012, 09:17 AM

God is the Father of all, and above all--regardless of any church.

.

John 8:44
"You belong to your father, the devil, ..."

The thing Jesus is teaching here is the correct understanding of the term "Father"
The term is to be taken to mean in the context of a loving relationship....and the people Jesus was talking to here clearly had no loving relationship with God, thus God was NOT their father at all......

Jesus was teaching that there are many people that do not have God as their Father.

alanmolstad

01-11-2013, 07:24 AM

So to review:

Jesus is the creator of all things.
rocks.....suns....moons....trees....people....and angels, even the fallen angels.

He is the "Creator" of all things.

But God is not the "Father" of all things.
The term "father" is only true with the things made that god has a loving relationship with.

rocks do not love God, thus God is not the "Father" of the rocks.

People that worship a false religion do not love the true God of the Bible, therefore God is not their "Father"

Satan and his angels fell away and do not love God, therefore God is not their "Father"

nrajeffreturns

01-24-2013, 02:48 PM

So to review:

Jesus is the creator of all things.
rocks.....suns....moons....trees....people....and angels, even the fallen angels.

I don't agree with that part of your statement. I believe that people are people, they are not things. Jesus was involved in the creation of things, but His Father did the creating of the spirits of mankind. That explanation makes the best sense to me, when all scripture on the subject is considered.

But God is not the "Father" of all things.
I agree with that part. God the Father is not the father of rocks, trees, planets, stars, etc. Because those are things.

The term "father" is only true with the things made that god has a loving relationship with...rocks do not love God, thus God is not the "Father" of the rocks.
I think I can agree with that as well, since I believe that God loves all His children, not just the obedient or saved ones.

People that worship a false religion do not love the true God of the Bible, therefore God is not their "Father"
The story of the Prodigal Son says you are mistaken about that. Even when the one son was rebelling against his father and against common sense and decency, the father never stopped being the man's father, and that son never stopped being a son to him.

Satan and his angels fell away and do not love God, therefore God is not their "Father"
To the extent that "father" is meant metaphorically, I agree, since satan and his followers disowned God in a sense, so your qualified use of "Father" in quotes is a nice way of showing that. But God never stopped being the father of those spirits. They no longer are heirs, or potential heirs, to God's kingdom, but that only means that they are disinherited children. It doesn't mean that they are suddenly non-children.

By the way, it's weird to be posting in a thread that I created 3 years ago.

alanmolstad

01-25-2013, 06:23 AM

people are things...

There are only to sets in my post, "God: (who is not created) ...and "things" (that are created)

alanmolstad

01-25-2013, 06:26 AM

James Banta

01-25-2013, 08:43 AM

and when I say that people that do not have faith can not claim God as their "Father" it is based on the words of Jesus at John 8:44

"You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

That is a great point.. The Holy Spirit through the Apostle John makes the fact that we can become His children by receiving Jesus very clear.. And if we can become His children we are being told we weren't His children to start with (John 1:12). And what is Jesus saying as he says we must be born again Spiritually from above? Isn't that saying we need to become His children? And the prophets saying that God created our spirit within us. Doesn't that tell us we were never begotten by his in some spirit world before our lives here? So aren't we a creation like all His other creations until we receive Him and become His children? You point is well taken we are children of wrath, children of the devil until be BECOME children of God.. IHS jim

alanmolstad

01-25-2013, 03:21 PM

I think the reason the term comes up and is questioned is that according to Mormon teachings, they tend to use the term "father" when talking about the Lord, in the context of their concept that the Lord runs around heaven with a male genitalia that bangs females with to make the spirits and people we see in the bible and in our world.

That is why the Mormons are so upset to have someone point out that when speaking of God, we use the term "father" in the context of a loving relationship only ....we do not mean its because God made use of genitalia, for we believe God is pure spirit and thus has no form or body, or flesh.

This weird idea that God has male genitalia (and makes frequent use of it) is also kinda why a lot of Christians dont get much mileage when they point out the sexual fixation the early Mormon leadership like Joe Smith had.

Normally when a person is shown the truth that the leader of their religion was a really only in it for the young skirts he was chasing they would be expected to reject that leader as being false.
But Mormons dont seem to mind that Christians point out all the sex-related facts about their leaders because, well...lets face it, the god they worship is worse!

The god they worship has set the morality bar so low, that all the things we try to point out that show Smith was just in it for the sex dont really mean all that much to Mormons....
After all, their god is also in it for the sex too....

alanmolstad

03-11-2013, 07:53 AM

God is NOT the Father is Satan...nor of the fallen spirits.

God is also not the Father of any who do not believe in His son.

Apologette

03-11-2013, 05:19 PM

That makes God the Father the father of Satan.

Mormonism teaches that "heavenly father" sexually procreated Satan with one of his heavenly wives. That makes him the literal father of Satan.

Isn't God the Father also the father of Jesus?

Not by sexual procreation. The Word of God is the Second Person of the Trinity, and in time was born of Mary as the Son of God conceived by the power of the Holy Ghost (contrary to that jack***, Brigham Young).

MacG

03-11-2013, 05:24 PM

Not by sexual procreation. The Word of God is the Second Person of the Trinity, and in time was born of Mary as the Son of God conceived by the power of the Holy Ghost (contrary to that jack***, Brigham Young).

...but do so in gentleness and respect...comes to mind

RealFakeHair

03-13-2013, 09:53 AM

nrajeffreturns

03-13-2013, 11:50 AM

A good question, deserves a good answer, or something.
First, since we believe in the Trinity, and Satan isn't part of the Trinity, the answer is simple. Santan is a creation of Father, Son, thus not a brother of Jesus.

Thanks for sort of responding to those True-false questions. How about you answer each one in order? And then I have a response to your statement

"Second only man was created in the image of God, thus Satan has no resemblance to God or to man. Satan like all other angels are God's creation spirit."

But I will wait for your answers, and then cover this afterward. Thanks.

RealFakeHair

03-13-2013, 12:22 PM

A good question, deserves a good answer, or something.
First, since we believe in the Trinity, and Satan isn't part of the Trinity, the answer is simple. Santan is a creation of Father, Son, thus not a brother of Jesus. Second only man was created in the image of God, thus Satan has no resemblance to God or to man. Satan like all other angels are God's creation spirit.

Ah, what?
I am not an evangelical, I is baptist, but I'll try and answer U.
1-T
2-T
3-T
4-T
5-T
Now how you define Spirits, spirit, or evil spirit/spirits, we may differ.
Here is Heb 12:9 the word spirits as it relates to is man's souls.
Our earthly fathers gave us life through the flesh, our Heavenly Father gave us an eternal soul. ie our spirit.

alanmolstad

03-13-2013, 01:24 PM

1. To Evangelicals, Jesus created every thing and every spirit in existence (except His own, of course). T/F ....TRUE

2. Therefore, to Evangelicals, Jesus is the creator of Lucifer. T/F.....TRUE

3. The Bible mentions "the father of spirits." (Heb. 12:9) This refers to Jesus, since to Evangelicals, Jesus is the creator of all spirits. T/F.....TRUE

4. Lucifer is a very evil spirit. T/F....SORTA TRUE...The weird truth of the matter is that you can't actually find strong support for holding the view that Satan is an Angel or Archangel or some type of Spirit.
.Satan may be a fallen Angel to be sure.
And as a creature he was created by God.

5. Therefore, to Evangelicals, Jesus (the father of spirits) is the father of Lucifer (a very evil spirit). T/F....FALSE .Jesus is not "father" but he is "Creator" as you point out in the questions .

The term "Father" as used in the bible is talking about a relationship that God has with believers.
This is why the Jesus teaches that if you are not a believer then the Lord is not your "father"....in fact Jesus tells us that Satan himself is also called a "Father" too!

This shows us clearly that the term "Father" or "Father of spirits" is talking about a relationship that God has with believers, and is not to be confused with God being the "Creator" of the universe.

nrajeffreturns

03-13-2013, 02:06 PM

Ah, what?
I am not an evangelical, I is baptist, but I'll try and answer U.
Thanks for making the distinction, but to me, Baptists are part of Evangelicalism, at least according to definitions I have seen. Do your beliefs really differ from those of Evangelicals? If so, can you list those differences?

And thanks for answering the questions.

1-T
2-T
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Now how you define Spirits, spirit, or evil spirit/spirits, we may differ.
Yes, perhaps, and that is actually where I was heading with my questions since God's essence/substance and how it forms people's theology and beliefs about our relationship to God are what I'd like to keep discussing.

Here is Heb 12:9 the word spirits as it relates to is man's souls.
Our earthly fathers gave us life through the flesh, our Heavenly Father gave us an eternal soul. ie our spirit.

So doesn't Satan have an eternal soul? Isn't he, by definition, a spirit? And isn't God in essence a spirit too?

alanmolstad

03-13-2013, 02:11 PM

So doesn't Satan have an eternal soul? I dont know....I do not remember a verse that would support the idea, do you?

alanmolstad

03-13-2013, 02:13 PM

And isn't God in essence a spirit too?

I believe the Bible teaches that God is Spirit...
Im not sure it says God is "a" spirit????

I think by "spirit" we should understand it in this context as meaning God is "non-physical"

RealFakeHair

03-13-2013, 02:20 PM

Thanks for making the distinction, but to me, Baptists are part of Evangelicalism, at least according to definitions I have seen. Do your beliefs really differ from those of Evangelicals? If so, can you list those differences?

And thanks for answering the questions.

1-T
2-T
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4-T
5-T

Yes, perhaps, and that is actually where I was heading with my questions since God's essence/substance and how it forms people's theology and beliefs about our relationship to God are what I'd like to keep discussing.
RealFakeHair..
What we have here is failure to communicate. We Christians don't believe or could even imagine The God of the Holy Bible having a *****, fleshly or spiritually as do the LDSinc.

So doesn't Satan have an eternal soul? Isn't he, by definition, a spirit? And isn't God in essence a spirit too?
RealFakeHair
The LDSinc. may believe your heavenly father had sex with you heavenly mother or something? It is so confusing how you can keep up with your god using his spirit ***** or his fleshly *****. Perhaps you can help me out here, did your heavenly father use his spirit ***** to create his Son Satan or did he use his fleshly *****? My guess is the spirit one.
You may think I am making fun of your faith, but I am not I am just trying to understand Joseph Smith jr. thinking here.
No, Satan does not have a soul, he is an angel and not and never was human.

nrajeffreturns

03-13-2013, 02:21 PM

Thanks Alan for answering.

4. Lucifer is a very evil spirit. T/F....SORTA TRUE...The weird truth of the matter is that you can't actually find strong support for holding the view that Satan is an Angel or Archangel or some type of Spirit.
.Satan may be a fallen Angel to be sure. And as a creature he was created by God.

So it may or may NOT be true that Satan is a spirit? He's not a corporeal being, correct? If he can possess people's (or animals') bodies, wouldn't he have to be a spirit? Or are you saying that evil spirits do exist, but there's not enough evidence that Satan himself is one? He's some other kind of being--not corporeal like us mortals, but not spirit either? "None of the above" ?

5. Therefore, to Evangelicals, Jesus (the father of spirits) is the father of Lucifer (a very evil spirit). T/F....FALSE .Jesus is not "father" but he is "Creator" as you point out in the questions .
Yes, I was wondering whether there could be a difference. If the Bible says that Jesus is the father of spirits--and if Satan is a spirit--then how can Jesus NOT be the father of Satan? Are you saying that Jesus is ONLY the father of SOME spirits (the good ones) and that NO ONE is the father of the evil spirits?

The term "Father" as used in the bible is talking about a relationship that God has with believers.
This is why the Jesus teaches that if you are not a believer then the Lord is not your "father"....in fact Jesus tells us that Satan himself is also called a "Father" too!
This shows us clearly that the term "Father" or "Father of spirits" is talking about a relationship that God has with believers, and is not to be confused with God being the "Creator" of the universe.
That is possible, but it's also possible that the term "Father" can be used in the Bible with multiple meanings, and not always the metaphorical "believer relationship" meaning in every case.

Take for example Luke 3:38:
who was the son of Enos, who was the son of Seth, who was the son of Adam, who was the son of God.
Was "the son of God" used there to mean that Adam was a believer?

I also noted that your answer to question 5 was different from RealFakeHair's answer, but we can look into that in a later post.

nrajeffreturns

03-13-2013, 02:27 PM

I dont know....I do not remember a verse that would support the idea, do you?
He is a sentient being, correct? He isn't going to die, correct? So apparently he's going to live on into eternity, and he has a soul, so....eternal soul, it would seem.

Definition of SOUL
1 : the immaterial essence, animating principle, or actuating cause of an individual life
2
a : the spiritual principle embodied in human beings, all rational and spiritual beings, or the universe
b capitalized Christian Science : god 1b
3
: a person's total self
4
a : an active or essential part
b : a moving spirit : leader
5
a : the moral and emotional nature of human beings
b : the quality that arouses emotion and sentiment
c : spiritual or moral force : fervor

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/soul

Doesn't the definition include Satan as having a soul?

nrajeffreturns

03-13-2013, 02:29 PM

I believe the Bible teaches that God is Spirit...
Im not sure it says God is "a" spirit????
It depends on which Bible you read. Some include the "a" and the more literal ones leave it out.

I think by "spirit" we should understand it in this context as meaning God is "non-physical"
That seems reasonable. And doesn't it allow for Satan to be a spirit in essence, too, since Satan is non-physical?

alanmolstad

03-13-2013, 02:31 PM

Thanks Alan for answering.

So it may or may NOT be true that Satan is a spirit?

The Bible is very clear when it says that "God is Spirit"

But I cant think of a verse off hand that really nails down the nature of Satan....
There are verses that talk about Satan 'transforming himself into a "Angel of Light"...but this seems to only ppoint out that Satan is not really an "Angel" of light....so what is he then?...could we say he was an "Angel of darkness"?....perhaps.

But that too is just a guess.

I have read a bunch of GOOGLE search results about Satan, and Im not yet sure we can clearly point to any answer as being what the Bible says he was or is....

I would be open to seeing what verses you have on the topic...

alanmolstad

03-13-2013, 02:34 PM

Thanks Alan for answering.

So it may or may NOT be true that Satan is a spirit?

He's not a corporeal being, correct?

If he can possess people's (or animals') bodies, wouldn't he have to be a spirit?

Or are you saying that evil spirits do exist, but there's not enough evidence that Satan himself is one?

He's some other kind of being--not corporeal like us mortals, but not spirit either?

"None of the above" ?

In order to answer such questions we would need to really nail down things with a clear verse dealing with this matter.
I dont know of any such verse...
I would be very open to looking at any verse you have on the topic....

The study of Satan is a side-issue, and so there is room for people to search for answers and disagree...

alanmolstad

03-13-2013, 02:37 PM

Yes, I was wondering whether there could be a difference. If the Bible says that Jesus is the father of spirits--and if Satan is a spirit--then how can Jesus NOT be the father of Satan? Are you saying that Jesus is ONLY the father of SOME spirits (the good ones) and that NO ONE is the father of the evil spirits? .

The Bible is very clear in teaching that God is not the father of all men...

Jesus points out this clearly...as well as teaches that even Satan is called 'father' to the unbelievers.

So if Satan is the "father" of the unbelievers, then there is some room here to also hold that Satan might also be the "Father" of all the fallen angels and fallen spirits too....

The case can be made to support this idea....

RealFakeHair

03-13-2013, 02:40 PM

[QUOTE=nrajeffreturns;141290]Thanks for making the distinction, but to me, Baptists are part of Evangelicalism, at least according to definitions I have seen. Do your beliefs really differ from those of Evangelicals? If so, can you list those differences?

You can be a baptist and evangelical, or not. I don't want to get to deep into the water at this time, maybe later.

alanmolstad

03-13-2013, 02:43 PM

I also noted that your answer to question 5 was different from RealFakeHair's answer, but we can look into that in a later post.
"different" ?...yes, my wording my well be very "different' than others here on the forum.

I try to be different anyway....I try to write in an interesting style that is my own, and different.

But we should not mix up an answer that makes use of 'different" wording and "different" logic with being an answer that is 'opposite' and opposed to their answers.

Im not sure my answer is in 'disagreement " or not.....
Better ask them that question...LOL

alanmolstad

03-13-2013, 02:46 PM

He is a sentient being, correct? He isn't going to die, correct? So apparently he's going to live on into eternity, and he has a soul, so....eternal soul, it would seem.

Is there any verse in the whole Bible that teaches that Satan has a soul?

alanmolstad

03-13-2013, 02:49 PM

. And doesn't it allow for Satan to be a spirit in essence, too, since Satan is non-physical?

as long as you always make sure you understand that such an answer is "just a guess" you will be ok..

The problem comes when we try to build a whole foundation of thinking on top of what started out as just our own personal guess.....

alanmolstad

03-13-2013, 06:07 PM

I did a bit of searching, and as far as i can see, Satan does not have a soul...

nrajeffreturns

03-14-2013, 04:59 AM

I did a bit of searching, and as far as i can see, Satan does not have a soul...
The answer does seem to depend on one's definition of the word. Under the " the immaterial essence, animating principle, or actuating cause of an individual life" and "total self" definitions, Satan seems to have a soul, but under the "United body and spirit" definition, he doesn't.

But is Satan a SPIRIT?

alanmolstad

03-14-2013, 05:45 AM

The answer does seem to depend on .....

it really ONLY depends on just one thing......finding Textual support in the bible

Unless we got a verse that teaches something, we can not just use a dictionary to prove something is true.

Thus , if we just stick to the bible we have to come to the conclusion that while humans have a "soul" there is nothing, not even a hint , not even one single verse in the bible that teaches that Satan has a "soul".

So we can not teach that Satan, or any angels for that matter do have a soul....
Nor can we then turn around and build other ideas on top of what we know is a wild guess .

alanmolstad

03-14-2013, 05:50 AM

But is Satan a SPIRIT?

Once again, we would need to have the idea supported in the bible with a clear verse ....Know of any?

Back when I was in Bible School I had a teacher that pointed out the difference between "Fallen Angels", and "Evil Spirits"

The idea my teacher had was that these were two totally different creatures.
I personally am not all that convinced this was true, but I have not really done much study on the question.

alanmolstad

03-14-2013, 06:09 AM

So to review:

God is the creator of all creation...
But God is not the Father of creatures that he does not have a relationship with.

This is supported in the Bible in several places where Jesus points out that some men have the Lord as their father, and other men have Satan as their "father"
Now because we know that Satan is not the "creator" of anything, this points us to the idea that there is a big difference between being a "creator" and being a "father".

Creator = means you made something.
Father = means you have a type of loving father/son relationship with someone.

And now we add to this the understanding that at times the Bible will use the word "all" to be talking about only a very limited sub-set of a greater whole, ("Eve is the mother of all life") .
Thus you can now see that when the bible says that God is the "father of all spirits" it is really only addressing the spirits that God has this type loving relationship with.

Apologette

03-14-2013, 12:37 PM

The answer does seem to depend on one's definition of the word. Under the " the immaterial essence, animating principle, or actuating cause of an individual life" and "total self" definitions, Satan seems to have a soul, but under the "United body and spirit" definition, he doesn't.

But is Satan a SPIRIT?

Why do you even ask such a question? Satan is a fallen angel. Unlike Joey Smith and Emanuel Swedenborg's false teachings that angels are men, or preincarnate men, angels are a separate creation. They are not in the human category. Get that out of your brain and a whole bunch of stuff will become clear to you. Here is a study on angels: http://bible.org/article/angels-god%E2%80%99s-ministering-spirits Notice, they are not human spirits, but a special created order of spirits - created not sexually begotten by Mr. and Mrs. Mormon God! And they were created by Jesus Christ. Now for once, why don't you study something from the bible?

nrajeffreturns

03-14-2013, 03:18 PM

Why do you even ask such a question?
Um, maybe because asking questions tends to be a good way of getting....ANSWERS?

Satan is a fallen angel.
That doesn't prove that he's not ALSO a spirit. Your fallacy is the old false dichotomy one, where you think that Satan must be EITHER an angel, OR a spirit, when in the real world, it's possible he could be BOTH. It's as if you're saying "Bill Clinton can't be a human being, because he's a Democrat."

Try some logic for a change--millions have done so, and lived to tell the tale! :)

James Banta

03-14-2013, 03:33 PM

That is usually ***igned to Jesus Christ. God the Father is designated as the Father of spirits, concerning "us":

Ephesians 4:4-6---King James Version (KJV)

4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

There is nothing within the Biblical record that states anything but our spirits are Fathered by God the Father--and we His offspring.

Acts 17:29----King James Version (KJV)

29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

I have never made the claim that God fathered mules--but the scriptures do state that God the Father did indeed Father spirits:

Hebrews 12:9---King James Version (KJV)

9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

I see nothing in there that would include anything but the spirits of His offspring.

But you are referring to the adoption here--which takes place years after our birth--and after we already have a spirit in our bodies.

That is likened to stating that the adoption means that the fathers of our flesh is made void by we becoming children of God through the adoption. James--our earthly fathers fathered our flesh regardless of any adoption or not--that is a separate event--our flesh was fathered before any adoption took place---just as our spirits were Fathered before our adoption--and were present years before our adoption. Spirits are present for those who never will receive the adoption. Spirits are present in babies that die before the adoption.

That is the fact that all need to address--diverting to the adoption cannot explain that, and remains your onus to deal with.

All life sprang from God. Therefore all life is His offspring. You are correct in coming up with the idea that we are adopted His children.. Because both statements are true the ONLY logical answer is that by creation we are the offspring of God and by adoption we can be made His children. Remember Jesus called the religious men of His day sons of the devil.. Why? Because they hasn't been born of the Spirit. God also told us through the prophet that God formed our Spirits within us. We had to have a body first and within that flesh God created our spirits. Also it is good to know that Jesus created all things visible and invisible. Our spirits do conform to the definition of all that Jesus created. Is there any other way to understand the p***age?

Col 1:16
For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him

The LDS doctrine of a mutual creative act between the Father and one of His wives just doesn't conform to the Bible as to who created what.. IHS jim

Billyray

03-14-2013, 04:19 PM

That doesn't prove that he's not ALSO a spirit. Your fallacy is the old false dichotomy one, where you think that Satan must be EITHER an angel, OR a spirit, when in the real world, it's possible he could be BOTH
Humans and angels are not the same. But I know that you believe that they are your spirit brothers who were begotten and born to heavenly mother. This is another difference between mormonism and Christianity.

nrajeffreturns

03-14-2013, 08:25 PM

Humans and angels are not the same.
I didn't realize that was the issue under discussion. I thought it was whether angels who don't have bodies are spirits. Specifically, the fallen angel Satan. Why can't he be a spirit?

Billyray

03-14-2013, 09:04 PM

I didn't realize that was the issue under discussion.

But this is a major difference between Christian and Mormon beliefs. Mormons believe that angels are our spirit brothers (begotten and born to heavenly mother) in various stages of their eternal progression.

nrajeffreturns

03-14-2013, 10:46 PM

But this is a major difference between Christian and Mormon beliefs. Mormons believe that angels are our spirit brothers (begotten and born to heavenly mother) in various stages of their eternal progression.

Doesn't the Bible teach that Lucifer is a son of....someone? And even you guys believe that Lucifer was an angel. So the only GERMANE point to discuss here, now, is who is right on the question of:

"Is the devil a spirit? Or isn't he?"

Billyray

03-14-2013, 11:52 PM

Doesn't the Bible teach that Lucifer is a son of....someone? And even you guys believe that Lucifer was an angel. So the only GERMANE point to discuss here, now, is who is right on the question of:

"Is the devil a spirit? Or isn't he?"

The Bible doesn't teach that Lucifer was the spirit child of God and one of his wives i.e. that he was begotten and born to heavenly parents and your brother and Jesus' brother. This is a significant difference between what Mormonism teaches and Christianity teaches.

alanmolstad

03-15-2013, 01:07 AM

"Is the devil a spirit? Or isn't he?"I would have to see a bible verse that teaches it....

alanmolstad

03-15-2013, 01:11 AM

Doesn't the Bible teach that Lucifer is a son of....someone?
Son of the morning you mean?....the reference to the appearance of Venus in the sky?

alanmolstad

03-15-2013, 01:14 AM

alanmolstad

03-15-2013, 02:08 AM

But getting back to the point...

As I have talked about before here, the bible teaches that while the Lord is the creator of Satan, the Lord is not his "Father".

The term "Father" is talking about the loving close relationship that the Lord has with his children.
This also is why Jesus teaches that some men have Satan as their "father"

The verse saying that the Lord is the "father of all spirits" is talking about only the spirits that are in a loving relationship with the Lord....He is their father.

The spirits that are at odds with the lord do not have the lord as their "father"....

nrajeffreturns

03-15-2013, 05:41 AM

The Bible doesn't teach that Lucifer was the spirit child of God ..

Let's try to arrive at an answer to this question: Is Lucifer a SPIRIT?

One way we could try to find the answer is to look at definition of the word spirit and see if Lucifer fits that definition.
From merriam-webster, the definitions that have a decent chance of being relevant:

Definition of SPIRIT
1: an animating or vital principle held to give life to physical organisms (IMO, Lucifer doesn't fit this one)
2 : a supernatural being or essence: as
a capitalized : holy spirit (IMO, Lucifer doe fit this one)
b : soul 2a (IMO, Lucifer might fit this one)
c : an often malevolent being that is bodiless but can become visible; specifically : ghost 2 (IMO, Lucifer might fit this one)
d : a malevolent being that enters and possesses a human being (IMO, Lucifer might fit this one)

4: the immaterial intelligent or sentient part of a person (IMO, Lucifer probably does fit this one)

nrajeffreturns

03-15-2013, 05:49 AM

My own view is that while the idea that Satan is an angel is very poplar, there is not a lot of information in the bible about the topic.
The best verse that comes to mind is "'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels."

I agree. Thanks for that. I think it's useful info.

and...

"Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back." ...so this wording might also suggest that Satan is also an archangel, but there is room to disagree on that too.

We don't have any real support in the bible at all for Satan having a soul or a spirit...
If Lucifer is not a spirit being, then what IS his essence/ousios, ontologically?

I also dont believe that the term 'spirit" needs to be an alive creature.
Consider:...the spirit of love....the spirit of giving...the spirit of friendship.
All these are real spirits in that they are not physical, but they also are not alive. There is also the spirit of evil, the spirit of greed, the spirit of drunkenness...
You are right, because the word "spirit" in English can have multiple meanings, including literal and metaphorical, as you noted. Just like with many other words in the Bible, such as the ones that make God look like a chicken if they were taken literally.

These also are real spirits, but they are not creatures, they are not alive.
But we are talking about Lucifer, who IS alive, and is a sentient, thinking, feeling, scheming, intelligent PERSON. If he has no corporeal body, then almost by definition, he is a spirit, just like the ones called Legion that invented "Deviled Ham" in the New Testament.

alanmolstad

03-15-2013, 09:15 AM

If Lucifer is not a spirit being, then what IS his essence/ousios, ontologically?

again as i was pointing out....

We need a very clear verse to support any answers.
The problem is that on this issue we just dont have any real convincing proof of an answer.

Sorry, but thats just the way it is.

I would be interested in seeing any Text support for the answer, but as of right now and after i have looked at the most common listed verses I still dont think we can say for sure what answer is correct.

The Bible is just not clear on the issue.

thats good enough for me, as i dont want to end up saying an answer that turns out to be just a "guess".

But this also is the place where some people try to look outside the Bible for the answer.
They quote all kinds of support for their answer, ie - Books of fiction...church fathers, great translators, old Hebrews, and the dictionary.

But when you ask them for a clear Bible verse?.....mute.

This is why I think that the answer that Satan is an Archangel or normal Angel is very popular, and may be true.
But the problem is that I cant find a place where the Bible teaches this idea clearly.
So I would suggest that we dont try to come up with an answer that is just a "guess" and then try to use our guess as the foundation for other very important teachings.

If our guess is wrong we have build a foundation for an important teaching on shifting sand....

alanmolstad

03-15-2013, 09:23 AM

If he has no corporeal body, then almost by definition, he is a spirit, just like the ones called Legion that invented "Deviled Ham" in the New Testament.

Again.....for important teachings we need important proof.

If we want to use an idea to be part of the foundation for an important teaching, then we better have very clear support in the bible for this idea.

The bad news is that when we are dealing with the question of the nature of Satan, the bible does not give us very clear information.

So a lot of people that try to say that they have the 'answer' really can only point to a pile of different things that are all leading them to make a "guess".

In the end.....thats all they got to show for it....a guess.

I dont really like to guess on important matters.
I think that if a person is basing a whole way of thinking about God and the nature of things important to their church teachings on a guess, it only shows that in their eyes, "Personal views' are on equal footing as solid "Bible teachings"

nrajeffreturns

03-15-2013, 11:39 AM

RealFakeHair

03-15-2013, 12:27 PM

alanmolstad

03-15-2013, 12:31 PM

Hebrews seems to say that at least some angels are spirits:

14 Angels are merely spirits sent to serve people who are going to be saved. (Heb. 1:14 CEV)

So if Satan is a person who once was an angel...

"if".....

The "if" is the reason we cant make this idea the foundation of a teaching that is important.
The "if" means its a guess...

While it is fun to guess.....we cant mix up our guess with things that we can prove.

Billyray

03-15-2013, 12:38 PM

Hebrews seems to say that at least some angels are spirits:

14 Angels are merely spirits sent to serve people who are going to be saved. (Heb. 1:14 CEV)

So if Satan is a person who once was an angel...
Jeff perhaps you can tell us where you are going with this because thus far I don't think people have a clue what you are after.

RealFakeHair

03-15-2013, 12:45 PM

Jeff perhaps you can tell us where you are going with this because thus far I don't think people have a clue what you are after.

I think they call it fishing.

alanmolstad

03-15-2013, 12:49 PM

I think they call it fishing.

I thought we were just talking about the very uncertain nature of Satan?.....

The truth is, that there is not a lot in the Bible about the nature of Satan, and so most of the teachings we see out in the marketplace are mostly all based on written works of fiction and movies.

And thats not enough to say "we know the answer" clearly.

So lets review again:

God is the "Creator" of Satan.
But God is not the "Father" of Satan.

The term "Father" is addressing the relationship that people have...
This is why Jesus pointed out that the unbeliever does not have God as his "Father"

Now because the idea that God is not the "Father" of the unbeliever is so clearly taught in the Bible, we can therefore understand that God is not also the "Father" of angels and Spirits that do not worship him.

So just as God is the Father,,,yet not the father of all...so too is God the Father of the spirits that worship him, but not the father of the angels and spirits that do not worship him...

so who is the "Father" of the fallen angels and evil spirits?
My answer to that question is to once again point out the text at John 8:44 teaches that when you do evil, when you do not worship God, when you do such things as the fallen angels have committed, then the bible clearly tells us that the "Devil" is your "Father"

So there is a strong case to be made that not only is Satan the "father" to the lost men, but also to all who do not worship God....

RealFakeHair

03-15-2013, 12:57 PM

I thought we were just talking about the very uncertain nature of Satan?.....

There is no uncertainty to the nature of Satan, he is the Serpent. The true nature of an angel is in plan english (the middle man.) Somewhere between God and man.

alanmolstad

03-15-2013, 01:26 PM

There is no uncertainty to the nature of Satan, he is the Serpent. .

Ahh yes, the nature of Satan is the same as that of the reptiles.

(Well....thanks for making that......"Crystal Clear"....LOL)

RealFakeHair

03-15-2013, 02:09 PM

Ahh yes, the nature of Satan is the same as that of the reptiles.

(Well....thanks for making that......"Crystal Clear"....LOL)

Why, you think Joseph Smith jr, is the only Snake out there?
Rev;12:9 The dragon, that old serpent which is the Devil and Satan. and Joseph Smith jr.....NRFHT.

alanmolstad

03-15-2013, 02:12 PM

Why, you think Joseph Smith jr, is the only Snake out there?
Rev;12:9 The dragon, that old serpent which is the Devil and Satan. and Joseph Smith jr.....NRFHT.

?....
Hows that?

what do you mean?

RealFakeHair

03-15-2013, 02:17 PM

?....
Hows that?

what do you mean?

Snake in the gr***, viper tonuge kind of thing... Don't turn your back on a snake.....

nrajeffreturns

03-15-2013, 03:54 PM

Satan is not a person, end of story!

Really? What characteristic does he have that makes him a non-person?

nrajeffreturns

03-15-2013, 03:56 PM

"if".....
The "if" is the reason we cant make this idea the foundation of a teaching that is important.
The "if" means its a guess...
While it is fun to guess.....we cant mix up our guess with things that we can prove.

"If" you're right about then, then I guess you have a point. :)

Here is the syllogism:

1. You believe satan is an angel.
2. The bible says that angels are spirits.
3. That kind of leads to the idea that satan is a spirit.

Is there anything really illogical in the above?

nrajeffreturns

03-15-2013, 04:01 PM

Jeff perhaps you can tell us where you are going with this because thus far I don't think people have a clue what you are after.

Where are you having trouble connecting "Angels are spirits" with "Satan is an angel, and therefore a spirit" ? If you're following up to there, then the next step is to note that you guys say that God is, in His essence or nature, spirit.

So here's the info so far:

1. Satan is spirit.
2. God is spirit.
3. Therefore, they are both spirit at their essence or nature or ousios.

4. The Bible says that God is the father of spirits.
5. Therefore, it's not too unreasonable to conclude that God is the father of satan.

That's pretty much where I am heading. Did I lose you at any step along the way?

alanmolstad

03-15-2013, 04:19 PM

Once again...God is NOT the father of Satan...LOL

We use the term "father" only when there is a loving relationship.
None is between Satan and God...therefore God is not the father of Satan.

This is in-line with the teaching by Lord Jesus that unbelievers also do NOT have God as their "Father"

So who do I think is the father of the unbelievers and of the fallen angels?...SATAN!

So this means that Jesus is the "Creator" of Satan and the fallen angels..But God is NOT their "father"

This also points out the error shared by Mitt Romney and other Mormons who hold that Satan and Jesus are "Brothers"

They are NOT brothers.
They are creature (Satan) and Creator (Jesus)

alanmolstad

03-15-2013, 04:24 PM

1. You believe satan is an angel.

Oh, is that what the bible teaches?....Im still looking for a verse that clearly teaches this......know of any proof to that idea?

nrajeffreturns

03-15-2013, 04:39 PM

Oh, is that what the bible teaches?....Im still looking for a verse that clearly teaches this......know of any proof to that idea?

You are correct. I forgot that you are the one who said "while the idea that Satan is an angel is very poplar, there is not a lot of information in the bible about the topic."

I will keep looking for more. Thanks.

Apologette

03-15-2013, 04:45 PM

You are correct. I forgot that you are the one who said "while the idea that Satan is an angel is very poplar, there is not a lot of information in the bible about the topic."

I will keep looking for more. Thanks.

What do you think a Cherub is, nra? "This is what the Sovereign LORD says: "`You were the model of perfection, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty. [13] You were in Eden, the garden of God; every precious stone adorned you: ruby, topaz and emerald, chrysolite, onyx and jasper, sapphire, turquoise and beryl. Your settings and mountings were made of gold; on the day you were created they were prepared. [14] You were anointed as a guardian cherub, for so I ordained you. You were on the holy mount of God; you walked among the fiery stones. [15] You were blameless in your ways from the day you were created till wickedness was found in you." (Ezk. 28)

Billyray

03-15-2013, 05:18 PM

Where are you having trouble connecting "Angels are spirits" with "Satan is an angel, and therefore a spirit" ? If you're following up to there, then the next step is to note that you guys say that God is, in His essence or nature, spirit.

So here's the info so far:

1. Satan is spirit.
2. God is spirit.
3. Therefore, they are both spirit at their essence or nature or ousios.

But angels (and fallen angels such as Satan) were created by Jesus. Jesus is God and is uncreated and eternal. There is no comparison between creator and creation.

dberrie2000

03-16-2013, 05:18 AM

But angels (and fallen angels such as Satan) were created by Jesus.

The Bible has spirits being Fathered by God the Father:

Hebrews 12:9----King James Version (KJV)

9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

Even Jesus conceded to that fact:

John 20:17----King James Version (KJV)

17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Billyray

03-16-2013, 06:25 AM

The Bible has spirits being Fathered by God the Father:

Where does it say that spirits were "fathered" by God the Father?

nrajeffreturns

03-16-2013, 08:42 AM

Where does it say that spirits were "fathered" by God the Father?
Maybe it doesn't, but if it doesn't, that means that spirits including satan's were 'fathered' by Jesus, which isn't really a position you will be happy with, either. That is sort of the point of this whole thread, so thanks for bringing us back to it.

You see, one of you had started a thread back in 2009 questioning the LDS idea that both Jesus and Lucifer are created sons of God the Father. So, 9 months later, I started a thread questioning the Evangelical idea that Lucifer is a created son of God the Son (Jesus).

So your post brings us back to that topic. You seem to reject the idea that God the Father is the father of spirits.
Yet Jesus, being God Himself, is spirit, correct?
And Jesus mentions His Father being the father of spirits.
But as some such as Apologette have kindly pointed out, Satan was a cherub/angel. ("You were anointed as a guardian cherub, for so I ordained you."

And the Bible says that angels are spirits.
So Satan is a spirit.
God the Father is the father of spirits.
So perhaps the Bible supports the LDS idea (that God the Father is the father/creator of spirits including satan's) more than it does the Evangelicial idea (that Jesus is father/creator of spirits including satan's).

That's pretty much where I was going with this, and this is where we have ended up. So I am not sure there is a lot more that we need to discuss. Thanks to everyone for your thoughts and contributions to this thread. It has taught me some things I hadn't realized before.

Billyray

03-16-2013, 12:24 PM

You see, one of you had started a thread back in 2009 questioning the LDS idea that both Jesus and Lucifer are created sons of God the Father.

The LDS teaching is that we were begotten and born to heavenly parents and this includes you and me and Jesus and Satan. But the Bible doesn't teach this.

Billyray

03-16-2013, 12:37 PM

So your post brings us back to that topic. You seem to reject the idea that God the Father is the father of spirits.
Yet Jesus, being God Himself, is spirit, correct?
And Jesus mentions His Father being the father of spirits.
But as some such as Apologette have kindly pointed out, Satan was a cherub/angel. ("You were anointed as a guardian cherub, for so I ordained you."

The issue is the idea that LDS teach that we all have been "fathered" because what you mean by this is that each one of us including Jesus, you, me, and the angels were begotten and born to a heavenly mother. But this is not supported by the Bible.

nrajeffreturns

03-16-2013, 08:58 PM

The LDS teaching is that we were begotten and born to heavenly parents and this includes you and me and Jesus and Satan. But the Bible doesn't teach this.

It is true that the Bible doesn't go into details. It just says what we have covered so far.

Billyray

03-16-2013, 11:02 PM

It is true that the Bible doesn't go into details. It just says what we have covered so far.

But the Bible teaches that Jesus created everything visable and invisible which would include the angels--thus Jesus is the creator of Lucifer (who later became Satan) not the spiritual brother of Satan.

Billyray

03-16-2013, 11:05 PM

God the Father is the father of spirits.
So perhaps the Bible supports the LDS idea (that God the Father is the father/creator of spirits including satan's) more than it does the Evangelicial idea (that Jesus is father/creator of spirits including satan's).
You are quoting from Hebrews 12. Let's back up a little bit in that chapter.

Hebrews 12
4 In your struggle against sin you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood.
5 And have you forgotten the exhortation that addresses you as sons? “My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord, nor be weary when reproved by him.
6 For the Lord disciplines the one he loves, and chastises every son whom he receives.”

Who is "Lord" in this section of scripture from the LDS point of view?

dberrie2000

03-17-2013, 06:30 AM

Billyray

03-17-2013, 10:43 AM

Hebrews12:9 confirms that God the Father is the Father of spirits. Is that some spirits--or all spirits?

It certainly included Christ's spirit:

Where does this verse say that God "fathered" any spirit in the Mormon sense which means that they were begotten and born to a heavenly other?

This verse doesn't say that Jesus was begotten and born to a heavenly mother. What a blasphemous suggestion.

Billyray

03-17-2013, 10:45 AM

You are quoting from Hebrews 12. Let's back up a little bit in that chapter.

Hebrews 12
4 In your struggle against sin you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood.
5 And have you forgotten the exhortation that addresses you as sons? “My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord, nor be weary when reproved by him.
6 For the Lord disciplines the one he loves, and chastises every son whom he receives.”

Who is "Lord" in this section of scripture from the LDS point of view?
Bump for Jeff or DB.

dberrie2000

03-17-2013, 02:39 PM

dberrie----The Bible has spirits being Fathered by God the Father:

Hebrews 12:9----King James Version (KJV)

9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

Even Jesus conceded to that fact:

John 20:17----King James Version (KJV)

17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post---Where does it say that spirits were "fathered" by God the Father?

dberrie---Hebrews12:9 confirms that God the Father is the Father of spirits. Is that some spirits--or all spirits?

It certainly included Christ's spirit:

John 20:17----King James Version (KJV)

17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Could you explain for us how God the Father can be the Father--and not have Fathered?

Could you explain for us how we can be the offspring of God--and our spirits not be of the same species as God the Father?

Acts 17:29---King James Version (KJV)

29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

Where does this verse say that God "fathered" any spirit in the Mormon sense which means that they were begotten and born to a heavenly other?

Moving the goalposts when you find yourself scripturally outgunned will not make your point either. The scriptures have God the Father as the Father of all spirits. That is a paternal connection--regardless of what else you add to the equation. And those spirits are the offspring of God:

Acts 17:29---King James Version (KJV)

29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

Billyray--offspring are always of the same species as their Father--mother or no mother. And if God the Father is the Father of all spirits--then all spirits are brothers and sisters by virtue of the fact they share the same Father--mother or no mother. Your point is a moot one, unless you can show us what other God you believe is the Father of the remainder of the spirits.

Billyray

03-17-2013, 04:01 PM

James Banta

03-17-2013, 04:08 PM

Moving the goalposts when you find yourself scripturally outgunned will not make your point either. The scriptures have God the Father as the Father of all spirits. That is a paternal connection--regardless of what else you add to the equation. And those spirits are the offspring of God:

Acts 17:29---King James Version (KJV)

29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

Billyray--offspring are always of the same species as their Father--mother or no mother. And if God the Father is the Father of all spirits--then all spirits are brothers and sisters by virtue of the fact they share the same Father--mother or no mother. Your point is a moot one, unless you can show us what other God you believe is the Father of the remainder of the spirits.

But BD why does a person's offspring have a requirement to become his child in at all? The Bible makes it clear that we must become God's children through faith in Jesus (John 1:12-13).. We are His children to start with why wold we be required to be born spiritually of Him at all.. We should naturally be His children being born of Him the first time.. By the FACT that God requires that we are to be born again spiritually becoming His children through faith in Jesus make it easy to see that being God's offspring is therefore not the same thing as being His children. By right of creation we are His offspring, that creation of our spirit being created within us (Zech 12:1).. BEING ALL HIS OFFSPRING IS A GENERAL STATEMENT ABOUT ALL MANKIND. They are His offspring without regard to faith in Jesus. To become His children there is that requirement. And those that have no faith in him? They are Children of their father, the Devil (John 8:44). IHS jim

Billyray

03-17-2013, 06:08 PM

Billyray--offspring are always of the same species as their Father--mother or no mother. And if God the Father is the Father of all spirits--then all spirits are brothers and sisters by virtue of the fact they share the same Father--mother or no mother.

Gen. 3:15 I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and her offspring; he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel.

Can you tell me what this verse says particularly with respect to "offspring"?

dberrie2000

03-28-2013, 03:40 AM

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post ---Billyray--offspring are always of the same species as their Father--mother or no mother. And if God the Father is the Father of all spirits--then all spirits are brothers and sisters by virtue of the fact they share the same Father--mother or no mother.

Gen. 3:15 I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and her offspring; he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel.

Can you tell me what this verse says particularly with respect to "offspring"?

That satan could not produce offspring through the woman. Could you explain for us how that negates the fact the scriptures have God the Father as the Father of spirits--and they are His offspring?

Hebrews 12:9----King James Version (KJV)

9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

Acts 17:29---King James Version (KJV)

29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

Billyray

03-28-2013, 12:50 PM

Billyray
Gen. 3:15 I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and her offspring; he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel.

Can you tell me what this verse says particularly with respect to "offspring"?

DB
That satan could not produce offspring through the woman.
Can you tell me whose offspring this is--"between your offspring"?

dberrie2000

03-29-2013, 03:35 AM

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post

Billyray
Gen. 3:15 I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and her offspring; he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel.

Can you tell me what this verse says particularly with respect to "offspring"?

DB
That satan could not produce offspring through the woman.

Can you tell me whose offspring this is--"between your offspring"?

No. But if there are spiritual offspring from another than God the Father--then that is evidence there are other Gods. Are you saying that satan has spiritual offspring? That he is a creator also?

Apologette

03-29-2013, 10:34 AM

I never saw an answer from you guys on that question. Here are some T/F statements to help you get to where your Christology ends up:

1. To Evangelicals, Jesus created every thing and every spirit in existence (except His own, of course). T/F

2. Therefore, to Evangelicals, Jesus is the creator of Lucifer. T/F

3. The Bible mentions "the father of spirits." (Heb. 12:9) This refers to Jesus, since to Evangelicals, Jesus is the creator of all spirits. T/F

4. Lucifer is a very evil spirit. T/F

5. Therefore, to Evangelicals, Jesus (the father of spirits) is the father of Lucifer (a very evil spirit). T/F

Jesus created everything that is created. Therefore, He created angels. Lucifer was an angel who rebelled against God, and was cast out of heaven. He was not Jesus' brother, nor did Jesus "procreate" Satan sexually, as the repulsive doctrines of Mormonism teach. And by the way, God is only a Father by adoption (read first chapter of John and believe it), not because he spends all day on some planet near Kolob impregnating goddess wives (Mormons and Muslims have a lot in common).

alanmolstad

03-29-2013, 10:58 AM

not because he spends all day on some planet near Kolob impregnating goddess wives (Mormons and Muslims have a lot in common).The highly sexual nature of Mormonism is likely the result of the sexual fixation that the founding members of the Mormon CULT had with younger and younger women and girls.

In my Bible School days we came to see the Mormon teachings about their God sexing it up all the time as a reflection of what Mormon men think is their idea of what heaven should be like.....(endless sex with women other than one's wife).

I once heard a story of a Christian being asked to talk to a girl whose parents were worried she was about to marry-in to the Mormon faith of her boyfriend.

The Christian talked to the young girl, but this girl was convinced that the Mormons were only good.
Then after dinner , the Christian asked the girl's parents if they minded that their future son-in-law would be spending the afterlife having sex with other girls besides their daughter?
The daughter overheard this question and was very shocked, and a bit angry that the topic came up informing the christian that any husband of hers would be more than satisfied with her alone.

Then the christian turned and asked the boyfriend if this was so?
The boyfriend sheepishly answered that he believed it was his role to produce many children, and that part of his faith was this idea of many wives...and so to make the children that a world would need he would have to have the required sex with other willing women.

The daughter was shocked again to hear this coming from her boyfriend...

Lets just say that the marriage plans were put on hold....LOL

In my own personal view, this fixation with sex found within the Mormon teachings of their god is also the reason why when christian confront Mormons with the truth about the infidelity of the Mormon founders it does not seem to matter to the Mormons to learn this.

Mormons believe their god has lots of sex, so why would we expect different from their leaders?....LOL

Apologette

03-29-2013, 12:03 PM

The highly sexual nature of Mormonism is likely the result of the sexual fixation that the founding members of the Mormon CULT had with younger and younger women and girls.

In my Bible School days we came to see the Mormon teachings about their God sexing it up all the time as a reflection of what Mormon men think is their idea of what heaven should be like.....(endless sex with women other than one's wife).

I once heard a story of a Christian being asked to talk to a girl whose parents were worried she was about to marry-in to the Mormon faith of her boyfriend.

The Christian talked to the young girl, but this girl was convinced that the Mormons were only good.
Then after dinner , the Christian asked the girl's parents if they minded that their future son-in-law would be spending the afterlife having sex with other girls besides their daughter?
The daughter overheard this question and was very shocked, and a bit angry that the topic came up informing the christian that any husband of hers would be more than satisfied with her alone.

Then the christian turned and asked the boyfriend if this was so?
The boyfriend sheepishly answered that he believed it was his role to produce many children, and that part of his faith was this idea of many wives...and so to make the children that a world would need he would have to have the required sex with other willing women.

The daughter was shocked again to hear this coming from her boyfriend...

Lets just say that the marriage plans were put on hold....LOL

In my own personal view, this fixation with sex found within the Mormon teachings of their god is also the reason why when christian confront Mormons with the truth about the infidelity of the Mormon founders it does not seem to matter to the Mormons to learn this.

Mormons believe their god has lots of sex, so why would we expect different from their leaders?....LOL

All we have to do is look back to the founder of Mormonism to find the origin of the ultra-chauvinism one finds in the cult. The mid-19th century atti-tude toward women was standard theology in the cult - the man being the "head" of the family, even to the extent of having the authority to resurrect the wife. In fact, the man was "god" to his family, and would rule over his own kingdom in the hereafter, being served by the women he'd been sealed to. For these early Mormons, salvation really was becoming a god - this has been diminished in Mormonism today, since it is such an obviously ludicrous goal. But early Mormons took these things seriously. Didn't Brigham say that you had to have at least three wives to get exalted to godhood? Not sure, but I know that's the practice and belief of the Fundie Mormons. Women are simply rungs on the godhood ladder for men, and the more a man has, the greater one's kingdom. It's a pathetic excuse for Christianity, isn't it? Very sad that people believe this stuff that is so clearly anti-biblical. But, in the end, the Mormon allegiance is to their "priesthood" leaders, and they treat them as gods.

I once asked a Pentecostal girl who had become a Mormon how she'd feel if her husband too other wives (if Momronism reins***uted polygamy in the future). She said she just prayed that God would give her grace to accept that - I said, so you would ask God for the grace to ignore the commandments of Jesus in the NT? She didn't say much after that.

nrajeffreturns

03-29-2013, 12:58 PM

The highly sexual nature of Mormonism is likely the result of the sexual fixation that the founding members of the Mormon CULT had with younger and younger women and girls.

Careful A...."You have already agreed to not make personal attacks when you first signed up for this message Board...Im not sure if your religion (whatever it is?) allows you to break your word anyway or Not?"

In my Bible School days we came to see the Mormon teachings about their God sexing it up all the time as a reflection of what Mormon men think is their idea of what heaven should be like.....(endless sex with women other than one's wife).

"But I do know that people that break their word and start to make personal attacks don't last long around here...
We can talk about issues...
we can talk about current events...and we can talk about Bible verses and about religions and stuff...
But we cant dip down into talking about each other's deity or past leaders in a personal manner or this place will get dragged down into the mud."

I once heard a story...
Typical anti-LDS propaganda alert! "Once heard a story" shows the quality and reliability of the typical anti-LDS libelous, fear-mongering conspiracy theory-level garbage...and the credulity of anti-LDS who so willingly believe something they once heard or saw on the Internet--no evidence required before accepting it as fact.
A, do you really want to drag this forum down into the mud?

alanmolstad

03-29-2013, 01:09 PM

Careful A......once again, we gave our word not to attack personally any other member of this message board.
(see RULE #2..."Personal character attacks on board members")

Issues of religion, history, issues about popular stories in the news are open to discussion.
But we should not criticize members of this message board in an overly-personal manner.

So this means that you as a Mormon or a good Christian can criticize many well-known Mormons and Christians, and others who have their names in the news and in the history books.

So that being the case, it is no secret that the founder of the Mormon church really did sex-it up with younger and younger girls.

And it is no secret that when you raise this issue with Mormons today they mostly don't consider what Smith did with younger and younger girls to be a big deal.

In my Bible School days, we did a study of the founder of the Mormon and the JW and Moonie religions, and one of the things I noted then was that I started to see why Mormons don't have a problem with Smith's adultery...it seems to stem from their view that what Smith was simply doing here on earth was what their Mormon god was also guilty of too.

Thus the effect of a Christian raising the issue with a Mormon today is zip......it simply does not bother many Mormons the way it should because they seem conditioned to see sex with other women than your wife as simply following their god's example....

alanmolstad

03-29-2013, 01:22 PM

so willingly believe something they once heard or saw on the Internet--no evidence required

The full story is that i was teaching on how to reach out to the CULTS at our church night school.
I did the part where we talked about dealing with the JWs.

The person talking about how to reach out to the Mormons told this story of dealing with the girl who was christian and her getting married to the Mormon.

The reason this was brought up was that the christian parents of the girl were local to our area, and so many working in ministry to the Mormons knew the background to the story.

I do not have permission to list the names of people here in the open, however if there is any doubt as to the truth behind what i have said here, I guess i could try to do a google search for the people involved.

But for now the story is a first hand story, told to me in person by a nationally known Christian radio personality.
the story was widly known by others in my church, and there is even a chance i may have known the girl and boy involved in the story....(It was not that big of town..LOL)

nrajeffreturns

03-29-2013, 03:59 PM

Your story is one that you had heard someone else tell. You have not provided any evidence that this tale is true, and if true, is accurate in its details.

You then re-told this tale on the Internet.

So to all us readers, this is what is called hearsay--you're spreading what you "claim" you heard "someone else" say.

The question for you is:

Did you automatically believe the story was true? If you do, why would you do that, instead of file it under "one of many stories that lack any evidence" ?

Also: What does the Bible say about spreading rumors and gossip that you might hear?

And the question for the readers of your tale is:

Are you going to automatically believe this story is true? If you do, what kind of standards to you hold unsubstantiated Internet stories up to? By what criteria do you decide that one Internet story you read is false, but another you read is true?

alanmolstad

03-29-2013, 04:26 PM

The account I have given you is as.it.was.given to me.

Are.you now saying that the events talked about in the story "did not happen as told to me?

Or are you saying that the events "could not" happen?

If I contact the person who told me this story. And had him confirm that my account of what he said in cl*** is correct and that I have been very faithfully to the story as he first told it...would that be what you are seeking to learn?

alanmolstad

03-29-2013, 04:30 PM

Because I was teaching a cl*** on outreach to the cults it may be very easy to contact the person who told me this story...I believe the story he told the cl*** was likely also shared on the radio too...

This means that thereis a good chance the guy remembers telling it...or remembers the people in the story.

nrajeffreturns

03-29-2013, 05:14 PM

The account I have given you is as.it.was.given to me.
So if the events you were told never happened, then you are spreading a false story.

Are.you now saying that the events talked about in the story "did not happen as told to me?
I am ASKING why you automatically swallowed the tale and ***umed it was a true story. And why any of us should do likewise.

Or are you saying that the events "could not" happen?
The issue is whether they DID happen. If someone told me that they saw a member of your church selling crack to kindergartners, I would have some decisions to make:

1. Am I going to believe this story I just heard?
2. Am I going to spread this story across the Internet?
3. If I do that, and the story isn't true (since I haven't found out whether it's true or not), what responsibility do I have for causing Internet readers to believe it?

If I contact the person who told me this story. And had him confirm that my account of what he said in cl*** is correct and that I have been very faithfully to the story as he first told it...would that be what you are seeking to learn?

The following ****ogy should answer your question: If I contacted the person who told me (in my hypothetical example) that they saw a member of your church sell crack to kindergartners, and that person said "Yup, I did tell you that," would that be all YOU needed to learn before believing the events really happened?

Apologette

03-29-2013, 07:39 PM

So if the events you were told never happened, then you are spreading a false story.

I am ASKING why you automatically swallowed the tale and ***umed it was a true story. And why any of us should do likewise.

The issue is whether they DID happen. If someone told me that they saw a member of your church selling crack to kindergartners, I would have some decisions to make:

1. Am I going to believe this story I just heard?
2. Am I going to spread this story across the Internet?
3. If I do that, and the story isn't true (since I haven't found out whether it's true or not), what responsibility do I have for causing Internet readers to believe it?

The following ****ogy should answer your question: If I contacted the person who told me (in my hypothetical example) that they saw a member of your church sell crack to kindergartners, and that person said "Yup, I did tell you that," would that be all YOU needed to learn before believing the events really happened?

Well, you go around spreading the story that the Father and Son appeared to a gl*** looker, an occultist, and money digger, and told him all of Christianity was an abomination. That sounds pretty lame to me.

nrajeffreturns

03-29-2013, 08:26 PM

Well, you go around spreading the story that the Father and Son appeared to a gl*** looker, an occultist, and money digger, and told him all of Christianity was an abomination. That sounds pretty lame to me.

I "foreknew" that someone would bring that up. The response that I had planned to use when it came up is:

There are several differences, IMO, including:

1. The name of the person making the claim is public knowledge. Indeed, the person who made the claim put his name to it. There was no anonymity that relegated the story to a "I heard this from some unidentified person" status.

Apologette

03-29-2013, 08:51 PM

I "foreknew" that someone would bring that up. The response that I had planned to use when it came up is:

There are several differences, IMO, including:

1. The name of the person making the claim is public knowledge. Indeed, the person who made the claim put his name to it. There was no anonymity that relegated the story to a "I heard this from some unidentified person" status.

The story about the Christian girl dating the Mormon guy rings true to me because most Christians have no clue that Mormons think they are going to be polygamous in heaven. And a Christian girl would be abashed if she learned that her husband to be was planning on that!

alanmolstad

03-29-2013, 10:27 PM

Im still not clear what you want me to provide you with and what it will mean to you when I have the requested information?

alanmolstad

03-29-2013, 10:31 PM

The story about the Christian girl dating the Mormon guy rings true to me because most Christians have no clue

This is so true.
inmost people have no clue the Mormons are so steeped in sex with their history.

alanmolstad

03-29-2013, 10:37 PM

Im still not clear what you want me to provide you with and what it will mean to you when I have the requested information?

The account I gave is about 20 years old by now...and so I may be hard pressed to get the permissions. From allninvolved. But if it will cause someone to question mormon teachings then it would be worth the attempt.

Is that the case?

nrajeffreturns

04-03-2013, 11:51 PM

Im still not clear what you want me to provide you with and what it will mean to you when I have the requested information?

I want you to explain:

1. why you automatically swallowed the tale and ***umed it was a true story.

2.And why any of us should do likewise, when there is zero evidence being provided to prove that it ever occurred.

dberrie2000

04-04-2013, 05:23 AM

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post--- The scriptures have God the Father as the Father of all spirits. That is a paternal connection--regardless of what else you add to the equation. And those spirits are the offspring of God:

Acts 17:29---King James Version (KJV)

29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

Billyray--offspring are always of the same species as their Father--mother or no mother. And if God the Father is the Father of all spirits--then all spirits are brothers and sisters by virtue of the fact they share the same Father--mother or no mother. Your point is a moot one, unless you can show us what other God you believe is the Father of the remainder of the spirits.

But BD why does a person's offspring have a requirement to become his child in at all?

Acts17:29 is not a reference to our offspring--it's a reference to God the Father's offspring. They have to become Christ's children through the adoption to inherit the promises, eternal life.

The Bible makes it clear that we must become God's children through faith in Jesus (John 1:12-13).. We are His children to start with why wold we be required to be born spiritually of Him at all.. We should naturally be His children being born of Him the first time..

But we are not offspring of Jesus Christ. Not in the flesh--nor the spirit. God the Father is the Father of our spirits--and our earthly fathers are the natural fathers of our flesh and bones:

Hebrews 12:9---King James Version (KJV)

9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

That is the reason an adoption has to take place--it is transferring the Fatherhood to Christ. If Christ were the Father of our spirits--that would not have to happen. Even Christ's spirit was Fathered by God the Father--He had the same God and Father we do:

John 20:17---King James Version (KJV)

17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

All spirits have the same Father--all of them.

By the FACT that God requires that we are to be born again spiritually becoming His children through faith in Jesus make it easy to see that being God's offspring is therefore not the same thing as being His children.

That is correct--and that is an obvious point, seeing that our spirits exist in our bodies before any adoption takes place. The fact that we are spirit offspring of God is a separate fact from the adoption that takes place following the Fathering of our spirits. Just like our flesh is fathered prior to becoming adopted. We are adopted both physically and spiritually. Christ is the Father of neither--an adoption must take place to be adopted to Jesus Christ, and become the seed of Abraham, and heir of the promises--and that adoption is to Christ, not the Father. And that is one reason Christ had to come in the flesh--because it was He who was cast into the die of the Abrahammic lineage--and links us to the seed of Abraham through the adoption, and becoming heirs to the promises:

Hebrews 2:16--King James Version (KJV)

16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

Galatians 3:26-29----King James Version (KJV)

26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

By right of creation we are His offspring, that creation of our spirit being created within us (Zech 12:1).. BEING ALL HIS OFFSPRING IS A GENERAL STATEMENT ABOUT ALL MANKIND.

The scriptures do not have Jesus Christ as the Father of spirits--that is ***igned to God the Father only. Even Jesus consigned to that fact:

John 20:17---King James Version (KJV)

17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

They are His offspring without regard to faith in Jesus.

I would agree that being offspring and the adoption are two different points--the spirit is indeed an offspring of God the Father without regard to faith--but that is God the Father--not Jesus Christ--- that is the natural Father of spirits.

If Jesus were the Father of spirits--there would not have to be an adoption--they would already be His children. The scriptures only ***ign one natural Father to spirits--and that is God the Father:

Hebrews 12:9---King James Version (KJV)

9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

Even Jesus called God the Father His Father.

To become His children there is that requirement. And those that have no faith in him? They are Children of their father, the Devil (John 8:44). IHS jim

That is correct--we become subject to the devil and his kingdom at that point--satan is a god also.

Billyray

04-04-2013, 01:54 PM

Hebrews 12:9---King James Version (KJV)

9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

If Christ were the Father of our spirits--that would not have to happen. Even Christ's spirit was Fathered by God the Father--He had the same God and Father we do:
Christ created all things both visible and invisible which would include you and me and satan.

Billyray

04-04-2013, 01:57 PM

Hebrews 12:9---King James Version (KJV)

9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

That is the reason an adoption has to take place--it is transferring the Fatherhood to Christ. If Christ were the Father of our spirits--that would not have to happen. Even Christ's spirit was Fathered by God the Father--He had the same God and Father we do:

Hebrews 12
4 In your struggle against sin, you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood.
5 And have you completely forgotten this word of encouragement that addresses you as a father addresses his son? It says, “My son, do not make light of the Lord’s discipline, and do not lose heart when he rebukes you,
6 because the Lord disciplines the one he loves, and he chastens everyone he accepts as his son.”

Who is "Lord" in these verses?

dberrie2000

04-05-2013, 05:05 AM

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post-----Hebrews 12:9---King James Version (KJV)

9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

If Christ were the Father of our spirits--that would not have to happen. Even Christ's spirit was Fathered by God the Father--He had the same God and Father we do:

John 20:17---King James Version (KJV)

17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Christ created all things both visible and invisible which would include you and me and satan.

The scriptures confirm that God the Father is the Father of all spirits--including Christ's spirit--as He conceded:

John 20:17---King James Version (KJV)

17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Paul confirms that:

Ephesians 4:4-6---King James Version (KJV)

4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

That is a reference to God the Father--not Jesus Christ. As Hebrews states--it is God the Father--not Christ--that is the Father of spirits. Jesus Christ did not created Himself, God the Father--or the Father's offspring--which included the spirits--all spirits.

They were not created in the typical sense a rock was--they were Fathered--as the scriptures show--a paternal connection. They are His offspring:

Acts 17:29---King James Version (KJV)

29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

As the scriptures articulate:

John 1:1-3---King James Version (KJV)

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2 The same was in the beginning with God.

3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

The offspring of God--all spirits--were not made by Christ---they were Fathered by God the Father.

Billyray

04-05-2013, 11:03 AM

The scriptures confirm that God the Father is the Father of all spirits--including Christ's spirit--as He conceded:
Nowhere in you collection of verses does it disprove that Christ is the one who created all things both visible and invisible.

And why on earth do you keep posting John 1:1-3?

Billyray

04-05-2013, 11:04 AM

Acts 17:29---King James Version (KJV)

29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

And why do you think that this verse helps you?

dberrie2000

04-05-2013, 04:46 PM

Nowhere in you collection of verses does it disprove that Christ is the one who created all things both visible and invisible.

Yes there is. And for obvious reason--Christ did not create God the Father--the invisible God.

And if God the Father is the Father of all--including Christ's spirit--then Christ obviously is not the Father of spirits. That He conceded:

John 20:17---King James Version (KJV)

17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Billyray--that was a reference to His spirit and man's spirit. God the Father is the Father of them all:

Ephesians 4:4-6---King James Version (KJV)

4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

And why on earth do you keep posting John 1:1-3?

John 1:1-3---King James Version (KJV)

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2 The same was in the beginning with God.

3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Because it is a conditional statement about Christ's creation being limited to things made--verses God the Father's ---Fathering offspring---which is obviously not in the "made" category.

dberrie2000

04-05-2013, 04:51 PM

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post----Acts 17:29---King James Version (KJV)

29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

And why do you think that this verse helps you?

Because it defines what the Fathering of spirits brings forth--His offspring. Offspring are always of the same species as their Father. And that is different than the creation of a rock, trees, water, etc. And it is the offspring of God the Father--not Jesus Christ. That is the reason God the Father is referred to as "Father".

Billyray

04-05-2013, 07:24 PM

Offspring are always of the same species as their Father.
Gen. 3:15 I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and her offspring; he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel.”

Who is "your offspring" in verse 15?

dberrie2000

04-05-2013, 07:27 PM

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post---Offspring are always of the same species as their Father.

Gen. 3:15 I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and her offspring; he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel.”

Who is "your offspring" in verse 15?

How does that somehow cancel out the fact that spirits are the offspring of God the Father?

Billyray

04-05-2013, 07:34 PM

How does that somehow cancel out the fact that spirits are the offspring of God the Father?
You said "Offspring are always of the same species as their Father."

Gen. 3:15 I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and her offspring; he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel.”

Who is "your offspring" in verse 15?

nrajeffreturns

04-05-2013, 10:21 PM

You said "Offspring are always of the same species as their Father."

Gen. 3:15 I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and her offspring; he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel.”

Who is "your offspring" in verse 15?

All the snakes in the world?

Billyray

04-05-2013, 10:39 PM

All the snakes in the world?

So if what you say is correct then is DB correct in his statement "Offspring are always of the same species as their Father."?

Billyray

04-05-2013, 10:54 PM

All the snakes in the world?

So I take it by your question that you believe that Gen 3:15 is speaking about a snake and not about Satan.

dberrie2000

04-06-2013, 04:09 AM

Billyray

04-06-2013, 12:32 PM

I have no idea. How are you relating this to the fact the scriptures have God the Father as the Father of spirits--and they are described as His offspring?

I am relating this to your statement "Offspring are always of the same species as their Father."

Gen. 3:15 I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and her offspring; he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel.”

Who is "your offspring" in verse 15?

Billyray

04-06-2013, 12:33 PM

Hebrews 12
4 In your struggle against sin, you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood.
5 And have you completely forgotten this word of encouragement that addresses you as a father addresses his son? It says, “My son, do not make light of the Lord’s discipline, and do not lose heart when he rebukes you,
6 because the Lord disciplines the one he loves, and he chastens everyone he accepts as his son.”

Who is "Lord" in these verses?
Bump for DB.

nrajeffreturns

04-06-2013, 04:22 PM

So if what you say is correct then is DB correct in his statement "Offspring are always of the same species as their Father."?
It sure seems that DB is correct. You don't see female dogs giving birth to cats, after all.

Billyray

04-06-2013, 04:42 PM

It sure seems that DB is correct.
Really?

Gen. 3:15 I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and her offspring; he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel.”

Where do we see literal offspring in the verse above?

nrajeffreturns

04-08-2013, 08:45 AM

Really?
Yeah, as far as I can tell he is right, and has biology/genetics on his side, when he says that one species procreating a different species is unprecedented.

Gen. 3:15 I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and her offspring; he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel.”

Where do we see literal offspring in the verse above?

Well, we see Eve's literal offspring everywhere we see human beings.

Billyray

04-08-2013, 02:25 PM

Well, we see Eve's literal offspring everywhere we see human beings.

Gen. 3:15 I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and her offspring; he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel.”

But what about the one that I asked you about in Gen 3:15? Does Satan have literal offspring?

nrajeffreturns

04-08-2013, 03:15 PM

Gen. 3:15 I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and her offspring; he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel.”

But what about the one that I asked you about in Gen 3:15? Does Satan have literal offspring?

While he was in the form/body of a serpent, couldn't he have had snakelets with demons possessing them? (Not sure what the correct term for baby snakes is)

Of course, many people take the Eden story as an allegory and not as a literal account of actual events. Which makes the question about Satan's offspring possibly moot.

Billyray

04-08-2013, 07:33 PM

While he was in the form/body of a serpent, couldn't he have had snakelets with demons possessing them? (Not sure what the correct term for baby snakes is)

Of course, many people take the Eden story as an allegory and not as a literal account of actual events. Which makes the question about Satan's offspring possibly moot.
So you do or you don't believe that Satan has literal offspring?

dberrie2000

04-09-2013, 03:43 AM

Originally Posted by Billyray View Post---You said "Offspring are always of the same species as their Father."

Gen. 3:15 I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and her offspring; he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel.”

Who is "your offspring" in verse 15?

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post---I have no idea. How are you relating this to the fact the scriptures have God the Father as the Father of spirits--and they are described as His offspring?

I am relating this to your statement "Offspring are always of the same species as their Father."

Gen. 3:15 I will put enmity between you and the woman,

I know. But could you explain for us how that changes the fact offspring are always of the same species as their parents? Billyray--the Biblical text has God the Father as the father of spirits--and they His offspring. How does your postulations change that? Change the fact offspring are always of the same species as their parents? That "Father" is a paternal connection.

dberrie2000

04-09-2013, 03:46 AM

So you do or you don't believe that Satan has literal offspring?

If he does--they would be of the same species as he is.

Billyray

04-09-2013, 03:27 PM

If he does--they would be of the same species as he is.

So you do or you don't believe that Satan has literal offspring?

dberrie2000

04-09-2013, 07:45 PM

So you do or you don't believe that Satan has literal offspring?'

If he does--then he is the literal father.

The Bible has all spirits being Fathered by God the Father:

Hebrews 12:9---King James Version (KJV)

9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

And they His offspring:

Acts 17:29---King James Version (KJV)

29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

Billyray

04-09-2013, 07:46 PM

'

If he does--then he is the literal father.

Do you believe that Satan has literal offspring?

Billyray

04-09-2013, 07:48 PM

The Bible has all spirits being Fathered by God the Father:

Hebrews 12:9---King James Version (KJV)

9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

Hebrews 12
4 In your struggle against sin, you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood. 5 And have you completely forgotten this word of encouragement that addresses you as a father addresses his son? It says,

“My son, do not make light of the Lord’s discipline,
and do not lose heart when he rebukes you,
6 because the Lord disciplines the one he loves,
and he chastens everyone he accepts as his son.”

Who is the "Lord" in these verses?

dberrie2000

04-09-2013, 07:58 PM

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post---The Bible has all spirits being Fathered by God the Father:

Hebrews 12:9---King James Version (KJV)

9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

Hebrews 12
4 In your struggle against sin, you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood. 5 And have you completely forgotten this word of encouragement that addresses you as a father addresses his son? It says,

“My son, do not make light of the Lord’s discipline,
and do not lose heart when he rebukes you,
6 because the Lord disciplines the one he loves,
and he chastens everyone he accepts as his son.”

Who is the "Lord" in these verses?

Whoever one might judge it to be--the "Father of spirits" is a reference to God the Father--who is the Father of all:

Ephesians 4:4-6---King James Version (KJV)

4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Billyray

04-10-2013, 12:12 AM

Whoever one might judge it to be--the "Father of spirits" is a reference to God the Father--who is the Father of all:

Hebrews 12
4 In your struggle against sin, you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood. 5 And have you completely forgotten this word of encouragement that addresses you as a father addresses his son? It says,

“My son, do not make light of the Lord’s discipline,
and do not lose heart when he rebukes you,
6 because the Lord disciplines the one he loves,
and he chastens everyone he accepts as his son.”

Who is the "Lord" in these verses?

Billyray

04-10-2013, 12:18 AM

Whoever one might judge it to be--the "Father of spirits" is a reference to God the Father--who is the Father of all:

Ephesians 4:4-6---King James Version (KJV)

4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
Who is "all" referring to in this section of scripture? All mankind or ALL believers?

dberrie2000

04-10-2013, 03:40 AM

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post---Whoever one might judge it to be--the "Father of spirits" is a reference to God the Father--who is the Father of all:

Ephesians 4:4-6---King James Version (KJV)

4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Who is "all" referring to in this section of scripture? All mankind or ALL believers?

All of the spirit offspring of God the Father.

nrajeffreturns

04-10-2013, 09:03 AM

Who is "all" referring to in this section of scripture? All mankind or ALL believers?

Don't you remember? You believe that "all" means every human being, even all newborn babies. If "all" means literally "all" to you, then you believe that the Bible teaches that God is the father of all human beings. Right?

Apologette

04-10-2013, 10:58 AM

Don't you remember? You believe that "all" means every human being, even all newborn babies. If "all" means literally "all" to you, then you believe that the Bible teaches that God is the father of all human beings. Right?

Again, you go on tangents trying to put words in peoples' mouths. The problem with that is that you don't articulate your own position worth a darn.

nrajeffreturns

04-10-2013, 11:34 AM

Again, you go on tangents trying to put words in peoples' mouths. The problem with that is that you don't articulate your own position worth a darn.

He said that the "all" in "ALL have sinned" means literally everyone, including day-old babies (and presumably, babies who will be born in a week).

So why wouldn't he be consistent and believe that the "all" in "One God and Father of all" means literally everyone, too?

And sometimes there is no need to articulate one's own position in the course of questioning someone else's position.

Apologette

04-10-2013, 08:19 PM

While he was in the form/body of a serpent, couldn't he have had snakelets with demons possessing them? (Not sure what the correct term for baby snakes is)

Of course, many people take the Eden story as an allegory and not as a literal account of actual events. Which makes the question about Satan's offspring possibly moot.

Jesus said his enemies had the Devil as their father.

Apologette

04-10-2013, 08:22 PM

He said that the "all" in "ALL have sinned" means literally everyone, including day-old babies (and presumably, babies who will be born in a week).

So why wouldn't he be consistent and believe that the "all" in "One God and Father of all" means literally everyone, too?

And sometimes there is no need to articulate one's own position in the course of questioning someone else's position.

" For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous." Romans 5:19. Don't you know your Bible? Just as righteousness is imputed, so is sin.

nrajeffreturns

04-10-2013, 08:42 PM

" For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous." Romans 5:19.

Isn't it cool how the Bible doesn't say "all" there, and instead says "many" ?

dberrie2000

04-11-2013, 03:41 AM

" For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous." Romans 5:19. Don't you know your Bible? Just as righteousness is imputed, so is sin.

Apologette--that is a reference to the Redemption--where all men were absolved from the condemnation of the Fall through Christ's Atonement:

Romans 5:18---King James Version (KJV)

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

alanmolstad

04-11-2013, 04:43 AM

Jesus said his enemies had the Devil as their father.You are correct here.
The term "Father" talks about the relationship a person has with another.
This is why you can have a father/Son relationship with someone that you are not connected to by blood.

Jesus is the creator of "all things" and so Jesus is the creator of Satan.
But God is not the "Father" of Satan because they do not have the Father/son relationship.

So good *** Apologetic at understanding this Bible principle.

alanmolstad

04-11-2013, 04:54 AM

Isn't it cool how the Bible doesn't say "all" there, and instead says "many" ?
In the context of Romans 5:12 we see what is meant by "many"....

and on a side note, if you read the next verse you see something related to the question of if or not young kids sin.
For as we have read, Paul believed that before the Law came to him, (or rather before he was old enough to be covered under the law) he was "alive"
But here at verse 13 we see that even if you do not understand the law, you still can be guilty of sin.....it's just that God overlooks your sins for a time.

So Paul was correct, in the before the Law came and convicted him of his sin he was 'alive".....but we should not understand this to mean that the young Paul was incapable of committing a sin, but rather the sins that Paul may have been guilty of were overlooked and not changed against him due to him not being under the law as yet.

dberrie2000

04-11-2013, 07:16 AM

So Paul was correct, in the before the Law came and convicted him of his sin he was 'alive".....but we should not understand this to mean that the young Paul was incapable of committing a sin, but rather the sins that Paul may have been guilty of were overlooked and not changed against him due to him not being under the law as yet.

Or--that his sins were washed away due to exactly what the Bible states:

Acts 22:16---King James Version (KJV)

16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

James Banta

04-11-2013, 10:46 AM

Or--that his sins were washed away due to exactly what the Bible states:

Acts 22:16---King James Version (KJV)

16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

What brings you to use only the first part of the verse. yes we should be baptized but washing away our sins is through calling on the name of the Lord.. IHS jim

dberrie2000

04-11-2013, 11:34 AM

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post---Or--that his sins were washed away due to exactly what the Bible states:

Acts 22:16---King James Version (KJV)

16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

What brings you to use only the first part of the verse. yes we should be baptized but washing away our sins is through calling on the name of the Lord.. IHS jim

IOW--we take what command precedes the washing away of Paul's sins---"arise, and be baptized,"----and replace it with what follows the washing away of sins,--- "calling on the name of the Lord"--cancel out the former part--and walla!--we have faith alone theology!

What a man-made construction.

James Banta

04-12-2013, 12:01 PM

[quote]Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post---Or--that his sins were washed away due to exactly what the Bible states:

Acts 22:16---King James Version (KJV)

16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

IOW--we take what command precedes the washing away of Paul's sins---"arise, and be baptized,"----and replace it with what follows the washing away of sins,--- "calling on the name of the Lord"--cancel out the former part--and walla!--we have faith alone theology!

What a man-made construction.

Should God command Paul to break His commandment to be baptized.. Again you believe that the Christian Church teaches against baptism.. We don't, we baptize a person as they come to Jesus and make a profession of faith in Him.. Unlike you we don't believe that water has the power to wash us clean of sin. That is done only by the blood of Jesus we gain as we confess our sin and turn to Him (1John 1:9).. How is the p***age in 1 John true if baptism is a requirement? But the p***age in Acts 22 can still be true if we say that confession is the way to forgiveness. After all confessing to God requires calling on His name.. Again I tell you use the Bible to interpret the Bible.. Allow it all to be true or just give up and call Jesus a liar and that the Bible is not his word.. IHS jim

nrajeffreturns

04-12-2013, 12:46 PM

Allow it all to be true or just give up and call Jesus a liar... IHS jim
Hmm. So those are the only 2 choices a person has, eh? Interesting ultimatum.

Either

a) Believe that every word in the Bible as understood by Jim is true, or

b) You must call Jesus a liar.

Are you sure there isn't a third option?

alanmolstad

04-13-2013, 06:47 AM

What brings you to use only the first part of the verse. yes we should be baptized but washing away our sins is through calling on the name of the Lord.. IHS jim

this view is correct.
This is why you can be saved and not have gone near a drop of water....for it's not the washing away of the filth of the flesh that makes one free of sins, but rather the blood of Christ...

nrajeffreturns

04-13-2013, 02:12 PM

this view is correct.
This is why you can be saved and not have gone near a drop of water....for it's not the washing away of the filth of the flesh that makes one free of sins, but rather the blood of Christ...

So if the leaders of Christianity of the apostolic era was teaching that baptism in water like Jesus was baptized, was a commandment and one of the requirements for having one's sins remitted, what would you have to say about the state of apostolic Christianity and its leaders--that they were in a state of apostasy or were teaching heresies, or something like that?

James Banta

04-13-2013, 03:35 PM

Hmm. So those are the only 2 choices a person has, eh? Interesting ultimatum.

Either

a) Believe that every word in the Bible as understood by Jim is true, or

b) You must call Jesus a liar.

Are you sure there isn't a third option?

Nope no third option.. Believe in the God of the Bible. Believe that He was made flesh and dwelt among us. Believe that he died a sinners death on our behalf and provides righteousness to all who trust Him or suffer the judgement of God.. There is no other way.. If that is the Bible according to Jim I sure got around with that message. It has been taught for over 2,000 years.. IHS jim

James Banta

04-13-2013, 04:03 PM

So if the leaders of Christianity of the apostolic era was teaching that baptism in water like Jesus was baptized, was a commandment and one of the requirements for having one's sins remitted, what would you have to say about the state of apostolic Christianity and its leaders--that they were in a state of apostasy or were teaching heresies, or something like that?

That was never taught like that by the Apostles.. If anyone else taught it that way they never studied under the Apostles.. The Apostles knew that it is by the Blood of Jesus that remission of sins is accomplished. Water just can't do it, BLOOD IS REQUIRED.. Paul teaches us that the Baptism Jesus submitted to is NOT christian baptism.

Acts 19:2-5
He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

Since mormonism teaches that they have the same baptism as the baptism of John and it is sealed in the name of three Gods, and not the one true and living God it is therefore NOT valid.. LDS baptism is a product of pure apostasy.. Christian's sin were all washed away as we called on the name of the Lord in repentance.. We then can be baptized as a testimony to the gift of forgiveness we have experienced as God keeps His promises to us.. On fact I will go as far as to call it a commandment. When you start to obey His most important commandment found in Matthew 5:48, I will allow you to judge me in believing that those who trust their spiritual baptism to be the fulfillment of the commandment to be baptized are baptized members of the Church.. IHS jim

alanmolstad

04-15-2013, 08:07 AM

So if the leaders of Christianity of the apostolic era was teaching that .....
Any teacher of today, or any teacher that is to come, or any teacher of the past, is only relevant if what they are teaching is in harmony with the Scriptures...

If someone teaches stuff that is not supported in the bible?...then we are to reject them.

But what if the person is well known and highly respected?.....If what they teach is not supported in the Bible, reject them.

But what if it's an angel from heaven?.....if what the angel from heaven teaches is not supported in the Bible, reject him.

James Banta

04-15-2013, 09:53 AM

Any teacher of today, or any teacher that is to come, or any teacher of the past, is only relevant if what they are teaching is in harmony with the Scriptures...

If someone teaches stuff that is not supported in the bible?...then we are to reject them.

But what if the person is well known and highly respected?.....If what they teach is not supported in the Bible, reject them.

But what if it's an angel from heaven?.....if what the angel from heaven teaches is not supported in the Bible, reject him.

And to say that you have firm Spiritual authority and the LDS here know it.. Fact it is so important that the Holy Spirit through Paul the Apostle added the message twice

Gal 1:8-9
But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

IHS jim

alanmolstad

04-26-2013, 01:25 PM

Gal 1:8-9
But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

God's word warns us about the Mormons.....yet some still fall for their song and dance.....so sad....

dberrie2000

04-29-2013, 03:46 AM

Any teacher of today, or any teacher that is to come, or any teacher of the past, is only relevant if what they are teaching is in harmony with the Scriptures...

If someone teaches stuff that is not supported in the bible?...then we are to reject them.

I agree:

James 2:24----New American Standard Bible (NASB)

24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

alanmolstad

04-29-2013, 05:01 AM

I agree:

James 2:24----New American Standard Bible (NASB)

24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rcf1J6AJB9M

there you go!

So "Salvation" is by Grace alone though FAITH, and no by Works!

And.....there are two type of "Justification" talked about in the Bible,

1st - Justification by Faith,
2nd - Justification by Works.

ok?

dberrie2000

04-29-2013, 06:28 AM

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post---I agree:

James 2:24----New American Standard Bible (NASB)

24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rcf1J6AJB9M

there you go!

Could you explain for us what youtube has to do with what the Biblical record testifies is true?--- not by faith alone.

So "Salvation" is by Grace alone though FAITH, and no by Works!

Is that faith that is alone for salvation?

James 2:20---King James Version (KJV)

20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

Apologette

04-29-2013, 07:36 AM

Could you explain for us what youtube has to do with what the Biblical record testifies is true?--- not by faith alone.

Is that faith that is alone for salvation?

James 2:20---King James Version (KJV)

20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

Suspended and banned from CARM, the attacker of Christ's Blood comes here to ply his wares. But his dead works won't get him anywhere!

dberrie2000

04-29-2013, 12:43 PM

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post----Could you explain for us what youtube has to do with what the Biblical record testifies is true?--- not by faith alone.

Is that faith that is alone for salvation?

James 2:20---King James Version (KJV)

20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

Suspended and banned from CARM,

I'm usually banned before each week's end--and any LDS who does well on the CARM forum is usually banned within a short period of time.

the attacker of Christ's Blood comes here to ply his wares.

My "wares" are James2---what do you find about James 2 that you consider an attack on Christ's Blood?

But his dead works won't get him anywhere!

James did not believe either dead faith nor faith alone would get anyone anywhere:

James 2:20---King James Version (KJV)

20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)

24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

I'm pleased that Jill does not ban one for posting the Biblical scriptures--nor consider it an attack on Christ's Blood--quoting the Bible can get one banned on the CARM forum--especially if it testifies against the faith alone theology.

nrajeffreturns

04-30-2013, 01:04 PM

My pattern typically is:

Day 1. Post something that gets me banned for 1-2 weeks.
Day 7 or 14: Allowed to post again. Post something that day that gets me banned again.
Day 14 or 21 or 28: Repeat.

The good thing about this is that I end up with long intervals where since I can't post at C&^m, I can post over here, or do something productive! :)

James Banta

04-30-2013, 03:30 PM

nrajeffreturns

05-01-2013, 03:26 PM

All I see from that is you admit you have no respect from the rules of the owner of what ever site you post on.. IHS jim
That's all you see because you're still in your sins and haven't been regenerated so you're spiritually blind to the truth....or something like that. I forget exactly how the mantra goes. But one of you will probably be using within the next few days, so the exact wording will be coming soon to a forum near you. :)

alanmolstad

05-05-2013, 03:29 PM

Could you explain for us what youtube has to do with what the Biblical record testifies is true?--- not by faith alone.

Is that faith that is alone for salvation?

]
saved by Grace, though faith...not by works.....not by faith alone....not by works alone....not by faith and works......

understand yet?

alanmolstad

05-05-2013, 03:31 PM

So if the leaders of Christianity of the apostolic era was teaching .....Once again, any Bible teacher is only worth listening to if what they teach is in agreement with god's bible....

if they teach a different message?...then reject them.

Even if they come dressed as an angel from heaven....reject them

nrajeffreturns

05-06-2013, 06:00 AM

Once again, any Bible teacher is only worth listening to if what they teach is in agreement with god's bible....

You really don't see the inherent flaw in that reasoning? It's obvious to me, and here it is:

How do you determine, for sure, that any Bible teacher's interpretation of the Bible is really in agreement with it? For example, if one interprets the Bible as saying that the rapture will occur before the tribulation, and another interprets it as saying the rapture will occur after, how do YOU figure out which teacher is in agreement with the Bible? The same dilemma exists in regard to any number of controversies: Arminian vs. Calvinist soteriology. Transubstantiation vs. Consubstantiation. Pedobaptism is OK with God vs. not OK with God. Female pastors vs. No Girls Allowed. Pictures of Jesus OK vs. they are a graven image. God is OK with you subs***uting grape juice in your eucharist, vs. it must be wine.

It might be true that any Bible teacher is only worth listening to if what they teach is in agreement with god's bible, but modern Christendom is unable to come up with a 100% reliable way of determining whether any Bible teacher is in agreement with the Bible on every issue. So your litmus test sounds GREAT, but is not very useful in the real world.