This just in...

[johnd]

The theory of evolution is dead.


http://www.christianforums.com/users/19705-albums1183-23052.jpg

[archaeologist]

The theory of evolution is dead

i find such posts as this a prime example of why christians do not make an impact for God.

paul went into the temple or meeting place, i forget which, for 3 years to defend christianity and one can, by the examples we have in scriptures, see he did not resort to such ******** and flaming rhetoric

all that does is harden the hearts of those who believe in that alternative theory and does nothing for the kingdom of God, not even plant a seed. christians need to be better informed and able to communicate God's truth in a manner that is conducive to His will and desire.

the above quote doesn't even bring glory to God, but it does bring mockery and other negatives to Him and His followers.

[Tee Ar @ FB]

A-bio-genesis is dead. A thesis pertaining to it
(i.e., the generation of Life by means of random, natural processes)
predicts a higher carbon isotope-ratio (i.e., the amount of carbon-13 compared to C-12) than what has been observed *
(-Hugh Ross, whose PhD in Astro-physics was conferred by the Univ. of Toronto, Canada; he conducted 5 years of internship at the Cal. Ins***ute of Tech. -- he'll be on TBN-TV tonight & tomorrow afternoon).

This Reductio Ad Absurdum/ Modus Tollens is polemic, yet it puts a pebble in the shoe, something about which to cogitate, what?
_______________________________
* -- I don't know the quan***y, but the average m*** of a carbon atom is 12.011,15 atomic m*** units (or grams per mole), compared to exactly 12 for C-12
(-the Sargent Welch Scientific Company, Skokie, IL, publisher of the Chart of Elements).

[johnd]

Evolutionsts even admit macro-evolution isn't even a good theory.

[alanmolstad]

I dont defend evolution, rather I defend the idea that evolution is in agreement with the genesis text...

[DrDavidT]

evolution has never existed, it is the true fairy tale

[alanmolstad]

as I said, I do not defend the teachings, I just point out that they walk hand in hand with the bible, and there is no contradiction....

[Saxon]

Where does the Bible say that God created an ape that evolved into a man?? Maybe the Book of Hezekiah!

[alanmolstad]

what came before the ape according to evolution?

trace the line of evolution back....back...back....

Trace evolution back to the very beginning...to the very building blocks of all life...
Back to the place where we all started out at.

Where do you end up?.....

the answer is that you end up the very same place you end up at Genesis 3:19 (go look it up!)

[alanmolstad]

So what Im showing you is that according to both Evolution and Genesis we have a common source for all life.

[alanmolstad]

So the teachings of both Evolution and genesis do not contradict each other, rather that walk hand in hand with each other...

[Saxon]

Did God create or did chance luck out? What chance creates it instantaneously destroys. It is either God Created all things created or it was randome chance. I will stick with the Scripture.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.

John 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

[disciple]

So the teachings of both Evolution and genesis do not contradict each other, rather that walk hand in hand with each other...

I have to disagree with you Alan. Evolution needs time and death and the bible tells us there was no death until after man sinned.

[alanmolstad]

I have to disagree with you Alan. Evolution needs time and death and the bible tells us there was no death until after man sinned.
First you must agree that the single place where both evolution and genesis trace back all life to, (man and animal) is held in common correct?

this is found in the verse I listed if you want to checkout all that im saying for yourself...

[alanmolstad]

as for the time needed for evolution...that easy to also see displayed in the genesis text when you consider the "days"


Notice we know for a fact that the first 6 days of the Creation week are ended.
We know this for a fact because the Bible tells us clearly they are ended...

Then noticethe ending to the 7th day?....

Or....notice that at no place in the genesis story does the text list anyplace that the 7th day of the creation week has ended.

Now notice that at no place in the whole Old Testament doesa it teach that the 7th day of Creation has ended.

Now notice that at no point in the whole Bible does it teach that the 7th Day of Creation has ended .

So, being that we have clear endings to the first 6 days of Creation, and that we have no hint even in the whole Bible that the 7th day has ended yet...that only leaves one question..
"How long has the 7th Day lasted so far?"







(Thus the argument that Genesis has not enough time to account for the evolution of life, is in error according to the text)

[alanmolstad]

Did God create or did chance luck out? What chance creates it instantaneously destroys. It is either God Created all things created or it was randome chance. I will stick with the Scripture.

.

ah yes, the old "Evolution= chance" argument....(I love it when this one is tossed at me...LOL)

To see how this argument against evolution does not agree with the Bible, we will consider the story of Jonah and the Whale!



In that story there is a great storm at sea.
The men on the ship decide to draw lots to see who was at fault for the storm.
So the men cast lots, and the lot falls onto Jonah.

Now lets say that we were watching the casting of the lot, and it falling onto Jonah.

If we were a scientist we would say that this was just "chance"
We would not see any giant hand controlling the casting of the lot onto Jonah....

so as far as we would know, this was 100% just dumb luck that it fell onto Jonah.

However......at the same time....

When I read this same story I dont see any "dumb luck" at all!
There was nothing left to "chance" in this story
This was 100% all totally controlled by the hand of God....


Thus the argument against evolution saying that "Evolution = chance" is also a giant FAIL !

Science cant prove God.
Science cant test for God.
So Science can never prove God.
Thus when science looks at life on the earth, all it can see is "dumb luck and chance"

But because we have faith we can see beyond the things that are seen with our eyes, and understand that God is always in full control of "Dumb luck and chance"

[Saxon]

God is in full control!! Then it isn't evolution after all. There are three major theories of evolution and they all contradict each other.

[alanmolstad]

God is always God....

Im not saying that god stood back and left something else to do the work of creation.

rather Im saying that evolution is clearly a tool of god's hands.

Evolution needs to be respected by the christian...its like sunshine...its like rain....its like the wind that moves the trees..
Its part of God's creation...its part of the way God made this universe...

and...its in agreement with the Genesis story.

There are no anti-evolution arguments in the genesis stroy.
all the anti-evolution arguments are the result of "men's thinking"......

[Saxon]

believe what you want, but evolution is a completely bogus invention of man used to escape the reality of God.

[alanmolstad]

I dont teach evolution
I dont tell people what the genesis story "means"

But I dont run away and hide just because someone tells me we are related to apes.
nor do I need to run away and hide if someone asks me to show them how Genesis and Evolution can walk hand-in-hand...


I just ask questions in an effort to show people that what they thought was a huge difference between evolution and genesis actually turns out to be huge agreements.


take the concept of the "first thing"in both science and in Genesis.

Here isa question:...according to science, what is the first moment of creation?...what is is called...what was the thing that came out of it?

Now lets compare your answers with what the Bible teaches-

Here is a question:...according to the book of Genesis, what is the first thing God created in the beginning?










The answer you come up within both science(evolution) and out of the Text of Genesis match!

[alanmolstad]

believe what you want, but evolution is a completely bogus invention of man used to escape the reality of God.

Again, I do not teach nor defend the teachings of Evolution.

I just point out that they are in agreement with the Genesis story.

[Saxon]

I dont teach evolution
I dont tell people what the genesis story "means"

But I dont run away and hide just because someone tells me we are related to apes.
nor do I need to run away and hide if someone asks me to show them how Genesis and Evolution can walk hand-in-hand...

The only relationship that man has to an ape is that we were both created by the same creator. God created an ape and God also created a man. The ape did not turn into a man, God created man as a man and nothing more and nothing less.




I just ask questions in an effort to show people that what they thought was a huge difference between evolution and genesis actually turns out to be huge agreements.

There is no agreement between the creation of man and the evolution of man. Creation exists and evolution is a fairy tale.




take the concept of the "first thing"in both science and in Genesis.

Here isa question:...according to science, what is the first moment of creation?...what is is called...what was the thing that came out of it?

Now lets compare your answers with what the Bible teaches-

Here is a question:...according to the book of Genesis, what is the first thing God created in the beginning?

God created the heaven and the earth, not set evolution in motion. Creation and evolving are two separate things.

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.




The answer you come up within both science(evolution) and out of the Text of Genesis match!

In your dreams.

[Saxon]

Point out the agreements that you find.

[alanmolstad]

Point out the agreements that you find.
Real ones...or the ones in my dreams?

[Saxon]

Don't be silly. The ones that you think are real.

[alanmolstad]

According to science, the start of the universe was the Big Bang.
All that we see around us in our universe had this one single starting point.
Every star , every dead world like our moon, every earth-like planet we might see in the future, is made from stuff that came forth from the Big Bang.

In the Bible this very same moment is talked about at Genesis 1:1 " In the beginning God created the Heavens and the earth."
The word "Heavens" has several meanings in the Bible and in different contexts, but of these many understandings of the word is the idea for the "Full canopy of the night sky" .........in other words all the stars and galaxies of the universe.

So like what we find in science, the Bible also has the creation of the "heavens" as being the very first thing listed that God has made.



But what about life?
Is there agreement about where all life is from in both Science and in Genesis?......yes there is!


Now according to Science all the life we see on the earth is just the natural result of change on the earth.
That life is just the earth itself ....that Life is part of the Earth.
In other words....animals and humans are just a part of the earth that has come to life....

Is this all that different than what the Bible teaches in Genesis?.......Nope!

"And God said, Let the earth bring forth gr***"
"And the earth brought forth gr***"

"And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature"
"And God made the beast of the earth"

"And out of the ground made the Lord God to grow every tree"
"And out of the ground the Lord God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air"

So what we see in the Genesis story is the clear fact that God made all life out of this very earth itself.
Life, be it the life found in the plant world, or the life found in the animal kingdom, is all from this very same single source....and that source is the very ground of the earth itself!


So there is complete agreement about the source of life in both Evolution and in Genesis!






But what about humans?
Are we also from the same source?




yes we are!!!!!!!!!

[disciple]

First you must agree that the single place where both evolution and genesis trace back all life to, (man and animal) is held in common correct?

this is found in the verse I listed if you want to checkout all that im saying for yourself...


Hi Alan,
I see the point you are making but I see no agreement between evolution and creation. Evolution employs, death, mutation, chance and discounts irreducible complexity. Complex systems do not evolve bit by bit, for example a baby needs a number of very complex, interdependent systems to live and survive. These systems include the nervous, digestive, excretory, circulatory, skeletal, muscular and an immune system. For the baby to survive and live each system requires all the other systems to be functioning. Therefore all these systems must be in operation at the same time and could not have evolved slowly over millions of years. Think of the amazing intricacy of the male reproductive system coming about by time, chance and random mutation. It would need to be fully functional all along the evolutionary timeline so that reproduction could continue. And remember this highly unlikely progression would be pointless unless the female reproductive system had randomly evolved in perfect sync to compliment the developing male system so they both worked in harmony over the millions of years of evolutionary refinement! Of course, this logic applies to all the other species on earth as well.
There is no evidence anywhere of the evolution of such systems. More than that, not even any hypothetical process can be thought of to explain how something like the brain and the digestive system could have evolved bit by bit over time. Evolution is a theory introduced by man. I don’t think that Gen. 3:19 has anything to do with evolution and if you will look at Gen. 2:18-22 you will see that Eve did not evolve from an ape.

“And the Lord God said, “It is not good that man should be alone; I will make him a helper comparable to him.” Out of the ground the Lord God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the air, and brought them to Adam to see what he would call them. And whatever Adam called each living creature, that was its name. So Adam gave names to all cattle, to the birds of the air, and to every beast of the field. But for Adam there was not found a helper comparable to him. And the Lord God caused a deep sleep to fall on Adam, and he slept; and He took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh in its place. Then the rib which the Lord God had taken from man He made into a woman, and He brought her to the man.”

[alanmolstad]

Hi Alan,
I see the point you are making but I see no agreement between evolution and creation. Evolution employs, death, mutation, chance and discounts irreducible complexity. Complex systems do not evolve bit by bit, for example a baby needs a number of very complex, interdependent systems to live and survive. These systems include the nervous, digestive, excretory, circulatory, skeletal, muscular and an immune system. For the baby to survive and live each system requires all the other systems to be functioning. Therefore all these systems must be in operation at the same time and could not have evolved slowly over millions of years. Think of the amazing intricacy of the male reproductive system coming about by time, chance and random mutation. It would need to be fully functional all along the evolutionary timeline so that reproduction could continue. And remember this highly unlikely progression would be pointless unless the female reproductive system had randomly evolved in perfect sync to compliment the developing male system so they both worked in harmony over the millions of years of evolutionary refinement! Of course, this logic applies to all the other species on earth as well.
There is no evidence anywhere of the evolution of such systems. More than that, not even any hypothetical process can be thought of to explain how something like the brain and the digestive system could have evolved bit by bit over time. Evolution is a theory introduced by man. I don’t think that Gen. 3:19 has anything to do with evolution and if you will look at Gen. 2:18-22 you will see that Eve did not evolve from an ape.

“And the Lord God said, “It is not good that man should be alone; I will make him a helper comparable to him.” Out of the ground the Lord God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the air, and brought them to Adam to see what he would call them. And whatever Adam called each living creature, that was its name. So Adam gave names to all cattle, to the birds of the air, and to every beast of the field. But for Adam there was not found a helper comparable to him. And the Lord God caused a deep sleep to fall on Adam, and he slept; and He took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh in its place. Then the rib which the Lord God had taken from man He made into a woman, and He brought her to the man.”


I dont teach evolution...I dont have any teachings on if the concept of evolution is true as now taught or if it needs to be changed in the future.

However what I am is a bible believer that has noticed that according to the current teachings of evolution we dont find any disagreements with it in the Genesis text!




So telling me how the odds are against evolution is a bit silly from my point of view...LOL

I believe that evolution is a tool of the "Maker's hand"
Thus evolution reflects the the workmanship of the "Maker"

Telling me the odds are against evolution only shows me why I believe evolution is a tool of the "Maker"
For the Maker is that good.....He is not stumped by your "odds"..... :)

[alanmolstad]

but what I try to point out to people is that the Bible tells us that life on the earth is from the earth itself...that all life, both animal and human, is from this earth.
We are a part of the earth that has come to life....


"Made in" the image of God to be sure, but still always "made from" this very earth itself.....

[alanmolstad]

as for the "Eve issue"?........there is no difference!

The Bible tells us that Eve came forth from Adam, and so where did Adam come from?......the GROUND of the earth!!!!!!!
So both Adam and Eve come from the same single source!.........the ground.

This is why when we die we are said to "RETURN" to the ground....return to the dust of the EARTH!!!!!!!

Therefore no difference!!!!!!

[alanmolstad]

Do you have any other questions or things I have said that you wish me to address in a more complete form?
I would be very happy to do so, as it's so nice to be able to have a conversation that is NOT ABOUT THE MORMONS!.... :)


Do you have any Bible verses that you would like me to take a look at?
Im not a Bible expert by any means, but I have read a verse or two in my life and so I can give any Bible verses you have in mind a little look-see..


Is there a Genesis verse that you want to see how it could be able to be in agreement with science and evolution?
I know that lots of Christians are students of the bible, and so I really would like to hear whats on your mind as it concerns this topic and what it means if what Im saying is starting to ring true to you...

[disciple]

Do you have any other questions or things I have said that you wish me to address in a more complete form?
I would be very happy to do so, as it's so nice to be able to have a conversation that is NOT ABOUT THE MORMONS!.... :)


Do you have any Bible verses that you would like me to take a look at?
Im not a Bible expert by any means, but I have read a verse or two in my life and so I can give any Bible verses you have in mind a little look-see..


Is there a Genesis verse that you want to see how it could be able to be in agreement with science and evolution?
I know that lots of Christians are students of the bible, and so I really would like to hear whats on your mind as it concerns this topic and what it means if what Im saying is starting to ring true to you...

Hello again Alan,

So what you are saying is God created all the elements and then created everything else from those elements. That's not evolution.

[alanmolstad]

Hello again Alan,

So what you are saying is God created all the elements and then created everything else from those elements. That's not evolution.
Im saying that in GENESIS you find a story that works well with Evolution.

Im saying that the Bible tells us that we humans share a common point of origin with the animals (such as the great apes).

[alanmolstad]

Im saying that we are make "in" the image of God.

yet at the same time we are made "from" the same stuff as all the animals .




Im saying that according to the Genesis text, we share a place of origin with all the animals.

[alanmolstad]

Im saying that you can be both a very strong Bible believer, and a Scientist who believes evolution is true.

[alanmolstad]

Im saying that you can hold to a Genesis story that teaches us about the creation week of 7 days, and a scientist that understands that the universe is Billions and Billions of years old.

[alanmolstad]

Im also saying something else....



Im saying that Young Earth Creationism (YEC) is a lie.

Im saying that YEC is the result of "men's thinking" and stands against the written Word of God.

Im saying that evolution is a tool of God's hands...and as such should be just as respected as sunshine, as the wind that ****s the tree, and as rain that falls to the earth.
They all reflect the "Maker's hand"

[alanmolstad]

Once again, if the person reading my comments has a verse that they think stands against what I'm saying?...then lets have a look at it!

List it!

Show me where the Bible in Genesis is teaching something that is an argument against evolution.



so....got a verse?

[disciple]

Im saying that you can be both a very strong Bible believer, and a Scientist who believes evolution is true.


Hello Alan,
Here is the definition of human evolution,
"Human evolution is the lengthy process of change by which people originated from apelike ancestors. Scientific evidence shows that the physical and behavioral traits shared by all people originated from apelike ancestors and evolved over a period of approximately six million years."
Again the bible tells us there was no death before sin entered the world, how many apes, half apes, quarter apes etc. would have died in 6 million years before man became man and sinned?

[alanmolstad]

Hello Alan,
Here is the definition of human evolution,
"Human evolution is the lengthy process of change by which people originated from apelike ancestors. Scientific evidence shows that the physical and behavioral traits shared by all people originated from apelike ancestors and evolved over a period of approximately six million years."
Again the bible tells us there was no death before sin entered the world, how many apes, half apes, quarter apes etc. would have died in 6 million years before man became man and sinned?


Again , I dont teach evolution....

But I just point out that at no place in the whole Bible does it blame the death of animals onto the sins of men....(except for when we are talking about the sheep killed on the alter)





So there is not a single verse in the Bible that teaches that animals could not have lived and died for billions and billions of years before the rise of man on the earth....

[alanmolstad]

the "death" talked about in connection to Adam's sin is ALWAYS dealing only with human death.....

[alanmolstad]

Hello Alan,
Here is the definition of human evolution,
"Human evolution is the lengthy process of change by which people originated from apelike ancestors

and what (according to evolution)came before the apelike ancestors?

and before that?

and before that?

Trace it back.....back...back though the uncounted years of time that has p***ed.
Trace it all the way back to the very start...what were the very first building blocks that went on to form life?

guess where you end up?.......You end up at Genesis 1:11..."let the EARTH bring forth...."




God commands what to bring forth life?........"The EARTH!"










There simply is no disagree here in Genesis with the teachings of evolution at all !



The Bible does use more spiritual wordings, and the bible tells us the "who" that was behind the "what"......
but the fact is that what we read in Genesis fits nicely with what science and evolution are also finding out about early earth history.

[alanmolstad]

where is man from?

Where was he created as taught in Genesis?
What was the location?

[disciple]

the "death" talked about in connection to Adam's sin is ALWAYS dealing only with human death.....

Keep in mind there are primarily two views of history (secular and Christian) with two different authorities, man’s fallible reason(of which science is a part) and a perfect God. According to the Bible, a perfect God created a perfect creation, and because of man’s sin, death and suffering came into the world.
Romans 8:19-22 "For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now." God said His creation was very good, Romans 8 tells us that because of man's sin the rest of creation was unwillingly subjected to corruption.

[alanmolstad]

allthat stuff about "creation" is just talking about us humans.

When the Bible tells us that a great leader will arise and says, "The whole world will go after him" it does not mean all the animals...LOL

It does not mean all the worms and the bees and the deer in the woods and the trees too!...LOL

The Bible many times will talk about the creation, and the world and etc, and this is just its way of talking about the people...

[alanmolstad]

so that is why when you read the verse at Romans 8 you have to keep in its correct context as already given at Romans 5:12 that tells us that death came to "all men"


So the sin of Adam leads to the death of Adam's children.......and thats it.

[alanmolstad]

now someone might say that "all death" was due to the sin of Adam. and they understand this "all" to be talking about the death of animals too.

This is error.....

Its very easy to show this is all error when you consider that Eve is said to be the mother of "all the living" ......well sheep are living, deer are living, worms are alive, is Eve their mother too?


No!....Eve is the mother of all the living, as in all the people that are her children.
Not the deer, not the sheep, and not the trees or the birds etc...

So the word "all" does not become an automatic blanket for everything you can think of.
the word "all" only can be understood in its very limited context.






Got another verse?

[alanmolstad]

"The order is wrong"

That is what many YEC teachers try to tell us.
They say that the order of things in Genesis is different than how evolution teaches things came in.

The problem with this argument is that they are ***uming things about the story of Genesis that you cant ***ume at all !

Let me give an example of what I mean by this.

lets say that of DAY X something happens on the land that according to evolution should have happened far earlier or later in history.
The problem here is that just because the Bible tells us something is happening on the land on Day X is does not mean other things could not also be happening!

The Bible tells us only that of Day X something changed.....but this does not mean nothing else could not be happening too.


say on Day X the bible tells us that something changed on the "land", does this fact alone mean all things in the "sea" and in the "sky" stood still?....no!

The fact is this: when we read the Bible tell us about something that changed on the land on Day X it is simply that.....its telling us that something changed on the land.

It does not rule-out lots, and lots, or other things that might also be changing or have changed beforehand...
The Bible is just pointing out that on Day X this thing___changed.

its not to be understood for one moment as the "only" change......its just the "only"one listed in the text is all....

[disciple]

allthat stuff about "creation" is just talking about us humans.

The Bible many times will talk about the creation, and the world and etc, and this is just its way of talking about the people...

Not so in this case, it says the creation was "unwillingly subjected" to futility and corruption. Humans sin willingly.

[disciple]

now someone might say that "all death" was due to the sin of Adam. and they understand this "all" to be talking about the death of animals too.

This is error.....

Its very easy to show this is all error when you consider that Eve is said to be the mother of "all the living" ......well sheep are living, deer are living, worms are alive, is Eve their mother too?


No!....Eve is the mother of all the living, as in all the people that are her children.
Not the deer, not the sheep, and not the trees or the birds etc...

So the word "all" does not become an automatic blanket for everything you can think of.
the word "all" only can be understood in its very limited context.






Got another verse?

Alan people who read the Bible don't need that explanation, we know that Eve is not the mother of animals. Genesis 1:24 says,"And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.

[alanmolstad]

Alan people who read the Bible don't need that explanation, we know that Eve is not the mother of animals. .......


We know from only the fuller context that Eve did not give birth to every single living creature on the earth.
But, (and this is the important part Im pointing out to you) but the Text does clearly say she was the mother of "all the living"

I dont know how the verse reads in your Bible,but I remember my Bible School days, and we had a Bible teacher that taught us from his latin background , and he talked to the cl*** about how the bible actually say something like ""mother of all life"


So from the context we get the idea that this is only talking about her own children, and not in fact, "all the living creatures"


Im just saying that the same Bible says things like all "creation" and all "the world' and its not talking about animals, or trees or birds etc.
Its just talking about people.




so when we might say something like "all of creation follows his teachings"..or "the whole world followed his ideas" we are not talking about the fish and birds and apes and mice or trees etc.

The words like "creation"..."the world",,,the "universe" etc, ...cant be used like automatic blankets to cover everything you can think of every time.
They must be used within their limited given context, and the context for the death that was the result of Adam's sin is given at Romans 5....and it is only talking about human death.


Adam sinned, and death is the result, and it was p***ed down to us via Adam.

Not to our pets.....not to deer...not to cows.....not to worms....just to us who are the children of Adam.




So when Paul tells us that death came to 'all men" it is wrong to twist this into meaning more than what Paul wanted.

[alanmolstad]

You might ask me how I come to know so many things about this topic?

How come I seem to be able to answer every arguement put out by the Young earth teachers?


The answer is, that I got a chance to learn what the YEC teachers taught by being taught personally by the best Young Earth Creationism teacher alive....Mr Ken Ham.

Ken Ham is the guy running around the whole world, (world = lots of christian churches,,,LOL) teaching peopleand writing books and setting up websites , pushing the YEC teachings.

I went to his 8-week ORIGINS cl***.....taught by him to me personally.




So in other words, when I run into guy on the internet that I see are simply quoting their YEC websites and books, I just smile.....I have already been taught that stuff by the best....Guys on the internet can only quote the words of others, I have listened to the guy who wrote the books himself!




and so.....this is not my first rodeo

[disciple]

You might ask me how I come to know so many things about this topic?

How come I seem to be able to answer every arguement put out by the Young earth teachers?


The answer is, that I got a chance to learn what the YEC teachers taught by being taught personally by the best Young Earth Creationism teacher alive....Mr Ken Ham.

Ken Ham is the guy running around the whole world, (world = lots of christian churches,,,LOL) teaching peopleand writing books and setting up websites , pushing the YEC teachings.

I went to his 8-week ORIGINS cl***.....taught by him to me personally.




So in other words, when I run into guy on the internet that I see are simply quoting their YEC websites and books, I just smile.....I have already been taught that stuff by the best....Guys on the internet can only quote the words of others, I have listened to the guy who wrote the books himself!




and so.....this is not my first rodeo

So you contend that before man evolved animals were dying for millions of years. So lets look at the way animals could die. Other animals could kill and eat them but that can't be since God said He gave every green herb to animals for their food, Gen 1:30. They could have died from sickness and disease but God said everything He made was very good not prone to sickness and disease. So why would there be death in a world where there was plenty of food, no natural enemies, man or beast, no disease or corruption?

[alanmolstad]

So you contend that before man evolved animals were dying for millions of years. So lets look at the way animals could die. Other animals could kill and eat them but that can't be since God said He gave every green herb to animals for their food, Gen 1:30. They could have died from sickness and disease but God said everything He made was very good not prone to sickness and disease. So why would there be death in a world where there was plenty of food, no natural enemies, man or beast, no disease or corruption?

were was man created again?
what was the location where Adam was made?

(therein is found your answer)

[alanmolstad]

were was man created again?
what was the location where Adam was made?

(therein is found your answer)


In the garden?......or.....outside the garden?
What does this term "garden" mean to you?
What image would the people have who first read this word "garden"?

Is life the same for the things inside the garden compared to what life is like outside the garden?

so where is man first from, inside the garden or are we from outside the garden?




Now lets read Genesis 1:28 and see what it actually says compared to what the YEC teachers want it to say....

[alanmolstad]

God blessed them and said to them, "Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky and over every living creature that moves on the ground

so what things is God handing over to humans?....fish,birds living creatures of the land....

thats easy to understand, lets read on-


Then God said, "I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food

here what more is now also handed over to human?....plants, fruit trees.

"They will be yours for food"...they?
What "they" is God handing over to us again in verse 28 and 29?....


Oh thats right- fish, birds, living creatures, plants fruit trees....etc.

[disciple]

God blessed them and said to them, "Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky and over every living creature that moves on the ground

so what things is God handing over to humans?....fish,birds living creatures of the land....

thats easy to understand, lets read on-


Then God said, "I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food

here what more is now also handed over to human?....plants, fruit trees.

"They will be yours for food"...they?
What "they" is God handing over to us again in verse 28 and 29?....


Oh thats right- fish, birds, living creatures, plants fruit trees....etc.

You are getting ahead of yourself Alan, that didn't take place until Gen 9:3"Every moving thing that lives shall be food for you. I have given you all things, even as the green herbs."

[alanmolstad]

Actually I'm just reading and sticking to the Text as it is written.

That is also shows us both the main error the YEC teachers make, in that they simply dont stick to the text as written.

Just go over the verses again that I listed and read them as they are on the page....

the "they" is all that God is listing and talking about.....(birds, fish, trees etc).


that is what the Text says,,,that is what I believe.




This is just like when I was in the ORIGINS cl*** and Ken Ham was telling me that the first thing God created was "the light"
I just was reading the Genesis account at the very time he said this to me, and something "clicked" on and I raised my hand...

I asked "What does the Bible say is the first thing God created "In the beginning?"




That one question opened my eyes to the many errors taught under the heading of YEC

[disciple]

Actually I'm just reading and sticking to the Text as it is written.

That is also shows us both the main error the YEC teachers make, in that they simply dont stick to the text as written.

Just go over the verses again that I listed and read them as they are on the page....

the "they" is all that God is listing and talking about.....(birds, fish, trees etc).


that is what the Text says,,,that is what I believe.




This is just like when I was in the ORIGINS cl*** and Ken Ham was telling me that the first thing God created was "the light"
I just was reading the Genesis account at the very time he said this to me, and something "clicked" on and I raised my hand...

I asked "What does the Bible say is the first thing God created "In the beginning?"




That one question opened my eyes to the many errors taught under the heading of YEC

I've got to stop for today Alan but I appreciate the conversation, interesting as always.

[alanmolstad]

What I mean is this-

I beieve the very first thing the Bible tells us that god created in the beginning was "the heavens"
So I have the source for all the light later talked about in the rest of the story.
I dont need to invent anything, I dont need to twist things around, I dont need to come up with a way to have a light, yet that same light has no source...

I believe the word "heaven" is talking about stars like our own sun.
I believe it is also talking about worlds like our earth, and moons like our own moon.

So when I read at genesis 1:1 that god made first "the Heavens" I got the stage all set to keep reading the account with all of the players in place.


But thats not how the YEC teachers have it.
They have the "light" created first.
And, thats a problem because they dont have any source for that light for a few days yet.

Thus the need to twist into the story the idea of a type of light that does not need a source.
That also means that the "light" talked about in genesis cant be at all the same light with the same type of source that we see today.


So that means the light of the YEC teachers was at best...'temporary".....a kind of stop-gap light that was created by God who did not get around to makeing normal light for a few days yet....





YEC "light" has gone away.
My "light" is still there to be seen each day.



YEC light was "magic'

My light is "real".....and I can point to it.

[alanmolstad]

I've got to stop for today Alan but I appreciate the conversation, interesting as always.

I hope you drop in today too???

Its nice to chat on topics such as this...

[alanmolstad]

I've got to stop for today Alan but I appreciate the conversation, interesting as always.
Were you on your "work" computer?.......

I swear over the years I have noticed that the only time I can get into a conversation with someone on topics I enjoy talking about happens during the week and during normal working hours??????????


on Sa****ay and Sunday ?.............only hearing the sound of crickets.....

[Saxon]

According to science, the start of the universe was the Big Bang.
All that we see around us in our universe had this one single starting point.
Every star , every dead world like our moon, every earth-like planet we might see in the future, is made from stuff that came forth from the Big Bang.

In the Bible this very same moment is talked about at Genesis 1:1 " In the beginning God created the Heavens and the earth."
The word "Heavens" has several meanings in the Bible and in different contexts, but of these many understandings of the word is the idea for the "Full canopy of the night sky" .........in other words all the stars and galaxies of the universe.

So like what we find in science, the Bible also has the creation of the "heavens" as being the very first thing listed that God has made.



But what about life?
Is there agreement about where all life is from in both Science and in Genesis?......yes there is!


Now according to Science all the life we see on the earth is just the natural result of change on the earth.
That life is just the earth itself ....that Life is part of the Earth.
In other words....animals and humans are just a part of the earth that has come to life....

Is this all that different than what the Bible teaches in Genesis?.......Nope!

"And God said, Let the earth bring forth gr***"
"And the earth brought forth gr***"
"And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature"
"And God made the beast of the earth"

"And out of the ground made the Lord God to grow every tree"
"And out of the ground the Lord God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air"

So what we see in the Genesis story is the clear fact that God made all life out of this very earth itself.
Life, be it the life found in the plant world, or the life found in the animal kingdom, is all from this very same single source....and that source is the very ground of the earth itself!


So there is complete agreement about the source of life in both Evolution and in Genesis!

The text does not indicate the “Big Bang Theory”. It is just a theory. The text does say that God is the creator of all things. There is nothing that indicates how he did it other than he spoke it into existence. (Hebrews 11:3) This also can mean that Jesus, the word of God, made the worlds out of nothing. There is no room for the big Bang Theory

When you read the Bible, don’t read into it what is clearly not there. God made each item and living thing. There is no agreement between creation and evolution.

Hebrews 11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.




But what about humans?
Are we also from the same source?


yes we are!!!!!!!!!

Genesis 2:7 states that the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. That sounds more like the direct creation of man by the very act of God creating man out of the dust of the Earth than a long process of evolution. Evolution is just a bogus idea to relieve man of the responsibility of answering to a Holy God.

Genesis 2:6 But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground.
Genesis 2:7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

[Saxon]

If man came from the dust of the earth, when did evolution take place?

[Saxon]

When are you going to start paying attention to the Bible?? Genesis 3:20 states that Eve was the mother of all living. There is such a thing as context. The animal reproduce after their own kind and so does man. Eve is the mother of all living humans. You try to make out that you are a wealth of knowledge, but you can’t read a simple sentence and get it right.

Genesis 3:20 And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living.

[Saxon]

Is the Bible right or is it wrong?? The bible never tells us something changed on the land. Through out the 6 days something new happened but nothing changed. Did God not say that it was good? if so why change anything?

[Saxon]

Is Jesus just a building block?

[Saxon]

How did the Earth bring forth life? Not evolution. God created it all.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.

John 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

[alanmolstad]

sure......Im off on the weekends and have lots of free time, and no one posts squat....

But come Monday and everyone starts posting like its going out of style.....

[Saxon]

quit crabbing and post a credible answer.

[alanmolstad]

quit crabbing and post a credible answer.
I think I have a right to be a bit crabby....

But as you have asked me so nicely to go have a look at the newer left comments, I shall go see whats new....:)

[alanmolstad]

Genesis 2:7 states that the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground,

I believe the point I was making is that in the Bible we see that humans share a common source....a starting point with the animals, (like the great apes)

That source is the very ground of the earth itself.

According to the Text we are part of the Earth that has come to life.
(as all all the other animals that we share this with)

[alanmolstad]

If man came from the dust of the earth, when did evolution take place?

The Bible does not "teach" evolution, rather it teaches what walks hand-in-hand with evolution and is not in conflict with evolution.

Evolution is a study of how the earth came to have life on it.
the Bible is more interested in the "who" put life here question.

So the point of science is not the same point that the bible has.
However, because both science and evolution as well as the book of Genesis are talking about the same events in early earth history we do see that the things that say fit well with each other, and give the student a very well-rounded understanding of our history and how we came to be us.....

[alanmolstad]

If man came from the dust of the earth, when did evolution take place?
as far as I know, the last known change to the evolution of man into what we now call "Modern Man" happend about 10,000 years ago.

Now evolution never stops, its always going on even to this very day.
but the ability of man to see it is kinda limited due to our current levels of science.

But lets just back up and see what the Bible is saying and if that compares to science?

Now according to evolution, alllife stems from the first building blocks of ife that is actually of this earth itself...in a very real way we are the earth 'sprung to life"


This is confirmed in genesis when it tells us that humans and animals are from the ground of this planet.
We are a part of this planet...the planet is our source and its where we are from.



So in both science and in Genesis we see this same idea taught, that humans are a part of this planet and its our source...

[alanmolstad]

When are you going to start paying attention to the Bible?? Genesis 3:20 states that Eve was the mother of all living.



.

I was actually just pointing out to all the people that believe that "animals die due to Adam's sin" that this is simply not taught in the Bible,and that you cant say that "all death" including the animals, is due to Adam just as you cant say that Eve was the mother of all the living...including the animals.

Eve was NOT the mother of the animals because she was created AFTER the animals!!!!!!
So that knocks down the idea that animals death is due to Adam's sin...

[alanmolstad]

How did the Earth bring forth life? Not evolution. God created it all.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.

John 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Evolution is a tool.
A tool for who?.....the Maker....the Creator!

Evolution is just like the wind, or time, or the sea...
All are things the Lord has made...all change things on this earth.

and....all should be respected as being part of the Lord's design for this world.

[alanmolstad]

so.....

I asked a YEC teacher-

"What is the very first thing the Bible lists as being created by God "In the beginning"?


I ask you the same question now....what is listed first in the beginning?

[Saxon]

You are missing the whole point of the Bible. God created. creation and evolution are diametrically opposed. All lies have a bit of truth.

[Saxon]

"you cant say that Eve was the mother of all the living...including the animals." that is totally your story. Anyone that reads the bible, except you, knows that it is not remotely suggesting that Eve is the mother of the animals.

There was no death until Adam sinned. Stick to the Bible and you will be better informed.

[Saxon]

The bible credits God as directly creating from nothing. No tools required. Show the scripture that states what you are suggesting.

[Saxon]

Not only does the Bible say who put live on the Earth but it also states how.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.

John 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

[alanmolstad]

You are missing the whole point of the Bible. God created. creation and evolution are diametrically opposed. All lies have a bit of truth.
You are welcome to quote a verse that I might have missed?

[Saxon]

as far as I know, the last known change to the evolution of man into what we now call "Modern Man" happend about 10,000 years ago.

What is that based upon? Not the verse that claims that God create man from the dust of the Earth. The bibles says God created man from the dust of the earth, not set evolution into action to work out a man over the thousands of years of your imaginary evolution is supposed to take. No evolution even hinted at. You are believing a contradiction.

Genesis 2:7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.




Now evolution never stops, its always going on even to this very day.
but the ability of man to see it is kinda limited due to our current levels of science.

The reason we can’t see evolution today is because it never happened.




But lets just back up and see what the Bible is saying and if that compares to science?

Now according to evolution, alllife stems from the first building blocks of ife that is actually of this earth itself...in a very real way we are the earth 'sprung to life"

According to the Bible all life stems from God, directly. Yes, the earth sprung to life at the command of God. The instant he said Let there be, there was in that same instant.




This is confirmed in genesis when it tells us that humans and animals are from the ground of this planet.
We are a part of this planet...the planet is our source and its where we are from.

How does that confirm evolution? The bible does not say that God created the animals out of the dust of the earth. If you think that it does, show me. Man was a special creation that is described in Genesis 2:7 and from that description there is no room for evolution.

Genesis 2:7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.




So in both science and in Genesis we see this same idea taught, that humans are a part of this planet and its our source...

That still does not prove evolution in the slightest.

[alanmolstad]

The bible credits God as directly creating from nothing. No tools required. Show the scripture that states what you are suggesting.

When we die,,,,,we return to the "nothing" we came from?


Think it over....
Where do we come from?.....

God did not create life out of "nothing".
God used something, God commanded something and it was so...

So what Im saying is that the Text teaches that God did not command a "nothingness" to bring forth life, rather He commanded the EARTH to bring forth life!!!!!!!!!

[Saxon]

Do you even know what evolutionists believe? It isn't the Bible.

[alanmolstad]

. Yes, the earth sprung to life at the command of God. .....


Thats all Im saying.....

The earth sprung to life in both Evolution and Genesis!

Thank you,

[Saxon]

That does not equate to evolution.

[alanmolstad]

That still does not prove evolution in the slightest.

The Bible dies not "teach" evolution, rather what it teaches works with evolution, and there is no contradictions...

Evolution and genesis walk hand in hand....

[alanmolstad]

When we die,,,,,we return to the "nothing" we came from?





When we die, we return to the "nothingness" you claim, or to the Ground as Evolution claims?

[alanmolstad]

When we die do we return to the ground that Evolution claims we came forth from?.

[alanmolstad]

Yes or no?........

[Saxon]

You have said it, The Bible dies not "teach" evolution. Leave it at that. Now you need to show where evolution goes hand in hand with the Bible. The Bible does not teach it. It come from the corrupt mind of corrupt men.

[Saxon]

Where does evolution state that man comes from the ground, the Bible says that, not evolution.

[alanmolstad]

You have said it, The Bible dies not "teach" evolution..

Im a drummer, in a band.
There is a base player
there is a guy on a 6-string
There is a singer too.

None of us is producing sounds that are anything like what the guy next to us is making.

yet even if all of us are different, yet there is no contradiction.



Its the same with Evolution and Genesis.
The two works are very different, they produce different ideas and are driven by different goals.
yet there is no contradiction.

there is only a union , even while different.
They walk hand in hand....

[alanmolstad]

Where does evolution state that man comes from the ground, the Bible says that, not evolution.

So.....if I can show you that evolution does trace back all life to the very building blocks of the first life that are actually part of the earth itself, then you will agree with me that Evolution and Genesis agree?

if that is so then we should be able to wrap this up soon I would guess

[alanmolstad]

See what happens is that when a YEC teacher starts to read the text without the mental "filter" of the many YEC books and websites blinding him to what the Text actually says, they soon discover that what the text says is not all that different that what they used to think Evolution was wrong to say.

The YEC has for years believed that the first thing the Bible teaches that God created "light" before he created a "source" for that light.
The YEC is therefore a bit shocked at first to see that the Text actually has God creating the source for light first!

This has got to be a bit upsetting for the former YEC believer because they have for years critized science for teaching that you need a 'source" for light.
Now the former YEC believer sees that God created the source for all the light talked about in Genesis, and that this works well with what science teaches about the evolution of the universe..

Without the need to invent a "sourceless light" the former YEC believer now does not need to be constantly afraid that science is out to prove "There is no God'

Suddenly the former YEC believer can just allow "science to be free to be science!"
There is no more need to attack people that teach evolution!
There is no need to try to ban books of school children.
There is no need to turn the TV off when NASA is reporting some new type of discovery about the age of our universe....

[alanmolstad]

Im a drummer, in a band.
There is a base player
there is a guy on a 6-string
There is a singer too.

None of us is producing sounds that are anything like what the guy next to us is making.

yet even if all of us are different, yet there is no contradiction.



Its the same with Evolution and Genesis.
The two works are very different, they produce different ideas and are driven by different goals.
yet there is no contradiction.

there is only a union , even while different.
They walk hand in hand....


I like what I said here....one of my better examples of how things can sound completely different, yet they are not in conflict at all, but rather speak in a harmony with each other .

[disciple]

See what happens is that when a YEC teacher starts to read the text without the mental "filter" of the many YEC books and websites blinding him to what the Text actually says, they soon discover that what the text says is not all that different that what they used to think Evolution was wrong to say.

The YEC has for years believed that the first thing the Bible teaches that God created "light" before he created a "source" for that light.
The YEC is therefore a bit shocked at first to see that the Text actually has God creating the source for light first!

This has got to be a bit upsetting for the former YEC believer because they have for years critized science for teaching that you need a 'source" for light.
Now the former YEC believer sees that God created the source for all the light talked about in Genesis, and that this works well with what science teaches about the evolution of the universe..

Without the need to invent a "sourceless light" the former YEC believer now does not need to be constantly afraid that science is out to prove "There is no God'

Suddenly the former YEC believer can just allow "science to be free to be science!"
There is no more need to attack people that teach evolution!
There is no need to try to ban books of school children.
There is no need to turn the TV off when NASA is reporting some new type of discovery about the age of our universe....

I think what you are overlooking Alan, is the fact that the most zealous proponents of the theory of evolution are the most zealous deniers of God, sin, judgment and the need for a Savior. Most believers don't have a problem with science or when scientists present theories but evolution has not and cannot be proven and yet it has replaced God in our schools and in the very government that was founded on the Word of God. How can the deniers of God, though "scientists", be considered credible enough to walk hand in hand with the accounts of scripture when scripture itself says they are the enemies of God? God is not mocked Alan, should those who deny His creative power be given authority equal to the account in the Bible? Jesus said if you are not with me you are against me, evolutionists are not with Him and it is not something to be taken lightly.

[Saxon]

Evolution and Genesis DO NOT agree. That is all there is to it.

[Saxon]

Show the changes brought about by evolution.

[Saxon]

Evolution and creation are a contradiction. Music and music is still music.

[Saxon]

You said that, not me.

[Saxon]

Evolution is only a theory, a poor one at that.

You seem to be claiming natural growth as evolution. Even when you grasp at straw, you come up empty.

[alanmolstad]

So,,,what does the Bible say if the first thing listed that God created In the Beginning?

[alanmolstad]

So,,,what does the Bible say if the first thing listed that God created In the Beginning?bump.......

[disciple]

Creations evolve.

Did Adam evolve?

[disciple]

Did his body stay the same from the time of its creation until he died?

Well, I'm sure he got older, grayer, weaker, fatter, etc., but that's not evolution. Here is the definition of human evolution,"Human evolution is the lengthy process of change by which people originated from apelike ancestors."

[Saxon]

Natural growth is NOT evolution.

[Saxon]

The point is that God created it. Evolution's come by chance had nothing to do with it.

[Saxon]

Show an example.

[alanmolstad]

So,,,what does the Bible say if the first thing listed that God created In the Beginning?

[Saxon]

That is not an example. It is a statement wherein you state that God created something. Evolution does not involve God creating anything! Evolution is anti-God, anti-Christ and anti-Bible.

[disciple]

So,,,what does the Bible say if the first thing listed that God created In the Beginning?

Alan, I don't think that anyone is refuting that on Day 1, three days before the Sun and all stars were made or before the creation of all stars was completed, a temporary light source illuminated the spinning earth and provided day-night cycles. This has nothing to do with human evolution, nor is it any type of proof of any form of evolution.

[alanmolstad]

Alan, I don't think that anyone is refuting that on Day 1, three days before the Sun and all stars were made or before the creation of all stars was completed, a temporary light source illuminated the spinning earth and provided day-night cycles. This has nothing to do with human evolution, nor is it any type of proof of any form of evolution.
What if the sun moon and stars were made on day one?..

What if I could show you that the bible says that they all were made on day one?

[alanmolstad]

Go look it up..

I want you to be very sure I'm wrong...I want you to quote "also made the stars".....

[disciple]

What if the sun moon and stars were made on day one?..

What if I could show you that the bible says that they all were made on day one?

Ok, show me.

[alanmolstad]

Ok, show me.

Well..
First are you sure that the bible actually says that the stars are made on the 4th day?..



Go check so you are 100% sure

[alanmolstad]

What we are looking for is the answer. ..was something added to the Text just to make it agree with YEC....?

[alanmolstad]

Ok, show me.

I am.....
But I have to rely on you to actually try to challenge what Im saying..
I need you to be convinced at the start that Im in error for this to work.

Unless you do that I dont really have a chance of showing anything to anybody.



So lets begin:
In every bible you can shake a stick at when you read the part about the events of the 4th day you clearly see where the Bible states that on the 4th day God "also made the stars"

Just go look at every bible translation and see if that is true?


So they all more or less all say that God "also made" the stars on the 4th day.


So there is a united agreement that im wrong correct?



Um.....except I noted something.....something about the word "made" that appears in versions of the King James Bible that put words in brackets [] that have been added by the modern editors and that do not appear in any historical version of the Bible........



go check it out to be 100% sure Im telling the straight truth at all times....

[alanmolstad]

so.....as we see in the translations that show the words that were added by the editors, that some times we see words inside brackets [made] or in italic made

If we check the events of the 4th daywe do see that the idea that god 'made" the stars also on the 4th day is just something that was added by the editors later.

It was added to make it fit with the idea of the sun and moon being made on the 4th day too.



the problem with this?

The problem is that its just an invention that simply builds on a wrong idea in the first place.
First off, the Bible does not actually say that the "sun"or the "moon" was made on the 4th day.
So adding words later to the text to support something not in the text is error!


So the sun is not said to be made on the 4th day at all....
Thus there is no need to rush this and feel you have to add the word "made" for the stars.


My advice?
Read the sentence a few times again but leave out the added "made"part.

Read it in context and you learn something that you did not see before.
You learn there is no need at all to add "made" in the sentence!

The sentence works fine all by itself without our needing to help it along.

In the next post we will read the sentence both ways, and you can see how you dont need the added word "made" at all!

[alanmolstad]

This is how we all see the text in many good bible translations-

"And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night he made the stars also."





Now lets do something radical.....lets just allow the Bible to say what it says without adding **** to it to make it say things it does not say.


"And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night the stars also."

There we go!
We took out the parts that were added and we ended up with an idea as to what the text wanted to say that is very different that what the added words twisted the text into saying.

In the sentence there are two great lights that god makes.
One light to rule the day.
One light to rule the night and the stars.


What do the lights rule?
One rules the day
One rules the night and stars.

So the idea we get now that the text is simply telling us the list of things that the two great lights rule.....

[alanmolstad]

So.......if the sun, the moon and the stars are not made on the 4th day.....when were all that stuff in the sky made by God?

The answer is?........

The answer is found at Genesis 1, verse 1 "In the beginning God created the HEAVENS and the earth"

[alanmolstad]

so we have this now to chew on....


We have just seen that once you take out the added bits the Bible turns out to be just listing for us what the lesser light rules over, and the big deal to that is that we dont have any reason at all to believe that the "stars" were made on the forth day!

At Genesis 1:1 we see God create all the "Heavens" and this must include the stars, the moon, and our own sun, (its a star too)

This means that while the Bible does not teach evolution, it also clearly does not teach Young earth creationism.



But what does it teach then?
It teaches a understanding of the creation of the universe and the creation of life that works within the common teachings of science including, (clears throat) including - EVOLUTION!


There is no need for Christians to worry that the Bible might be talking about lights before any source is listed, because we have the listed source for all the lights given at Gen 1:1....."The heavens"!!!!


The only conclusion a Bible student can come to is that all Young Earth Creationism is a big fat lie!....
It has to be all a lie, because it's simply not found in the text.
This means that its only twisted into the text to make the Bibel say what some people want it to say.

In other words....its all based on a lie.

The only support for YEC in the Bible is the things we add to the text.
Take out the added bits, and suddenly you are left with an account of history that walks hand in hand with evolution and science.


This also means that guys like Ken Ham who push books and websites that spread the teachings of Young earth creationism are in error.
Such teachers are a cause of harm to the body of Christ.
They are pushing ideas that are actally counter to the truth of the Bible, and there is no need for such silly teachings at all!
The Text does not need our help, the text does not need us to add "he made" just so it can agree with other stuff we want it to say.

If we take out the added bits we still have a very nice story to read, and most importantly, its not a story that agrees with YEC at all....








To review...
In the Bible the common source for all life, both animals and human, is the earth itself.

This same thing is true in Evolution....

There is no disagreement here between Evolution and Genesis.

[Saxon]

All of it!

[alanmolstad]

Well Saxon....if there is a verse you want me to have a look at?....Just name it and I will tell you what I think.

[alanmolstad]

no verse?
.........................

[Saxon]

You show me what you think will help me to see your point of view. The term, "evolution" is diametrically opposed the the term "creation" in the context of the Bible.

[alanmolstad]

You show me what you think will help me to see your point of view.


The term, "evolution" is diametrically opposed the the term "creation" in the context of the Bible.



I am attempting to show you what the bible actually says compared to what the Young Earther teachers tell us it says.
I more or less dont try to tell people what the Text 'means", but rather in the beginning I just try to get people to open the Bible up to the story of Genesis and just stick to the text.


Now when I say, "Genesis does not teach evolution..." lots of people that are against evolution will interrupt me and say, "Hah! you admit it!"

But the point Im actually making to them is that while evolution is not clearly taught in the Bible, there is enough room within the words that are found in Genesis to allow for Evolution to be very true.

and....

and I also point out to people that the teaching of Young Earth Creationism are NOT FOUND in the genesis Text at all !





As I have already talked about, I attended an 8-week ORIGINS cl*** taught by the leading YEC teacher of our time, a Mr Ken Ham.
I listen to everything the guy had to say.
I heard all his teachings.
I went over all his material.
I became very up to date as far as what is the argument behind the Young Earth Creationist teachings.

So in other words.....There is nothing I need yet to see or read or hear that has not already been shown me, taught to me, or spoken to me from the best YEC teacher alive already!
Lots of people I run into in church or on church forums like this one, that believe in the teachings of the YEC teachers, always have this idea that "Alan needs to read this"...or "Alan you need to look at this website"...or "Alan you need to get right with god"..etc,etc,etc...

All I can tell you is that I have done my homework...I have put in the time to study this issue, and I have already listened to the same things from far better speakers and teachers...

I find all the teachings of the YEC to be in error.

I find even the best Young Earth teachers to be in error.

and yet......





and yet i must point out one more thing I have learned over the years on this topic.

I have learned that every once in a while I run into a guy who at first does disagree with me, but has the ability to see past his gut feelings about what im saying, and is able to open the Bible fresh......fresh and free of all the YEC hype....

And have a moment of "clarity".....

They will see things anew.

They will be able to read the Genesis story with a new and deeper understanding and appreciation of it.
They soon come to the same conclusion that I have come to...and that is, that there is no anti-evolutionary arguments found in the Genesis account.
The two works might not say the same things the same way, but they don't actually disagree either.




If you would like, we can go over the Genesis text, verse by verse, and see how what we are reading does not in and of itself disagree with science and evolution?....

Or we can talk about a few of the ideas taught in YEC and how they compare to what the Bible says?...

Or if you have a few verses that you think I need to address?

Just let me know...

[alanmolstad]

You show me what you think will help me to see your point of view.



Ok....

The first thing we need to deal with is the "light" issue in the genesis text.
It was over this one issue that I did challenge the teacher Ken Ham on.

I remember at the time the ORIGINS cl*** he was teaching was dealing with the "light" and the fact that according to Ken Ham, God made a type of light at the start of genesis that had no known source.
Then later Ken taught that God made the source for light on the 4th day, when the Bible says God made the sun and the moon.


I had a problem with this whole idea.
The problem I had is that not one part of Ken's teachings were based on what the Bible was saying that I was reading!

Ken reads that God did not make a source for the light until day 4, so Ken's answer as to"Where was the light from" was to say that the light from the stars was made before the stars....and that this is also seen in a type of sourceless light talked about in the Book of Revelation.

However I noticed that the bible actually says something very different than that whole line of BS...


When I read Genesis I see at Genesis 1:1 that God creates the "Heavens" and while I know there are many meanings to the word "heavens" I do know for a fact that it can be talking about all the stars and our sun, and the moon, etc..

So when I read the story of genesis I never face the question, "Where is the source for the light?" because I have the source for the light created right at the start of the whole story!


This saves me from needing to invent a way to have light with no source...
It saves me from needing to invent reasons...
It saves me from needing to have a type of light that no one can point to today as being "just like it"

YEC type of "light" is not found in today's world.
But the light I read about in Genesis is just the same normal light I see today..I can point to it and say, "There it is still"

[alanmolstad]

Days.......the next issue we need to address.


All of Young earth Creationism is all built around the idea that God created the universe in just 6 normal days....each just a normal 24 hours long.

This is the main argument against an Old Earth, and against Evolution.
So its the main argument I run into when I tell people that Genesis does not disagree with evolution.

The person who believes in the YEC teachings has a hard time believing that genesis and evolution agree when Genesis only took 6 days to make man, and evolution clearly needs millions of years to make man.

So, if Im right about evolution and genesis not disagreeing, how do I answer the challenge put to me about the days issue?

I do have an answer for the days issue, and My Answer is to go back to the text of the story of Genesis and point out something key.

Each of the 6 days of Genesis have clear endings.
You cant miss em.
The endings jump out at you...they are clearly a big deal to the writer of the Genesis story.
the wrter of Genesis clearly wants you to understand that the Genesis 6 days are over.

Except that there are actually 7 days in the Genesis creation week!

So its a very big deal that the writer makes the endings of the first 6 days so hard to miss, that it demands we understand that its not an accident that the wroter of the Genesis story did not include an ending to the 7th day!!!!!!


This is not an oversight!

This means something huge!

Its also important that at no place in all the rest of the whole Bible is there even a hint given that we are to believe that the 7th day of Genesis has ended yet.

Not one word in the Bible hints that we should believe the 7th day is over yet.


So.......why would we dare add an ending when its clearly not included for a reason?

Why do we need the 7th day of Genesis to have an ending?




This is why I dont read the story of Genesis and force an ending onto the 7th day.
I have found that if you just stick to the Text on the "days Issue" that you dont need to force an ending to a day that is still with us.

Thus the idea that the fact that the Bible has the story of creation written in the form of a normal work-week is not any argument at all against the millions and billions of years it will take evolution to bring life to this world...

[alanmolstad]

typical....


I got free time on the weekends to post comments on the forum, and no one posts anything.

I go back to work on Monday and will only have my silly flip-phone to post with, and there are tons and tons of new posts to read...

Im guessing everyone else posts on their work computer then?....

[alanmolstad]

Alan, I don't think that anyone is refuting that on Day 1, three days before the Sun and all stars were made or before the creation of all stars was completed, a temporary light source illuminated the spinning earth and provided day-night cycles. .
I am refuting it !

i believe I have proved that the idea that god made light before he made the sun is in error....

[disciple]

I am refuting it !

i believe I have proved that the idea that god made light before he made the sun is in error....

Hi Alan,
Certainly discussion is good and we all have opinions. My opinion is that the Bible says God made light on day 1 and sun, moon and stars on day 4.
But I am like ***, perhaps thinking I know more than I really do. Here is what God said to *** Chap 38:19-21;
“Where is the way to the dwelling of light?
And darkness, where is its place,
That you may take it to its territory,
That you may know the paths to its home?
Do you know it, because you were born then,
Or because the number of your days is great?"

[alanmolstad]

Hi Alan,
Certainly discussion is good and we all have opinions. My opinion is that the Bible says God made light on day 1 and sun, moon and stars on day 4.


The text does NOT say that God made the "sun" or the "moon" on the 4th day!

Try as I might its so hard to get people to just go back and just read the text to see what it is actually saying!

Just go back and check it out for yourself.
The Bible does not say the God made the sun or moon on the 4th day!


what is the subject of the 4th day?....."the lights"

Not the sun?.....no!

Just light?...yes, that is why the Bible does not say that God made the sun on the 4th day, for God had already made the sun and the moon and all the stars on the 1st day!!!!!!!!


But does not the Text say on the 4th day that God made the stars?....no that was added by editors and its not in any of the oldest copies.


So The light of the sun is different on the 4th day?......yes, its "greater"

So the difference on the 4th day is the amount or brightness of the light that has changed?...yes, that is why the Bible tells us about the "Greater light",,the term "Greater" is telling us how much.


Then why was the amount of light different?....at *** 38 we learn the answer is because of thick clouds that cast the earth in "darkness"...this is the same darkness talked about in the beginning of Genesis.


So the "darkness" talked about at the start of genesis was only due to thick clouds talked about at *** 38?...yes...and as the clouds thinned out over time the light grew "greater"...that is way on later days we see the light called "Greater"

[disciple]

The text does NOT say that God made the "sun" or the "moon" on the 4th day!

Try as I might its so hard to get people to just go back and just read the text to see what it is actually saying!

Just go back and check it out for yourself.
The Bible does not say the God made the sun or moon on the 4th day!


what is the subject of the 4th day?....."the lights"

Not the sun?.....no!

Just light?...yes, that is why the Bible does not say that God made the sun on the 4th day, for God had already made the sun and the moon and all the stars on the 1st day!!!!!!!!


But does not the Text say on the 4th day that God made the stars?....no that was added by editors and its not in any of the oldest copies.


So The light of the sun is different on the 4th day?......yes, its "greater"

So the difference on the 4th day is the amount or brightness of the light that has changed?...yes, that is why the Bible tells us about the "Greater light",,the term "Greater" is telling us how much.


Then why was the amount of light different?....at *** 38 we learn the answer is because of thick clouds that cast the earth in "darkness"...this is the same darkness talked about in the beginning of Genesis.


So the "darkness" talked about at the start of genesis was only due to thick clouds talked about at *** 38?...yes...and as the clouds thinned out over time the light grew "greater"...that is way on later days we see the light called "Greater"

Then God made two great lights: the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night. He made the stars also. God set them in the firmament of the heavens to give light on the earth, and to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness. And God saw that it was good. So the evening and the morning were the fourth day.

Alan how do you conclude that that two great lights that God made are not the sun and moon?

[alanmolstad]

Then God made two great lights: the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night. He made the stars also. God set them in the firmament of the heavens to give light on the earth, and to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness. And God saw that it was good. So the evening and the morning were the fourth day.

Alan how do you conclude that that two great lights that God made are not the sun and moon?
The SOUND of my car is not the same as the car itself right?

In the same way the LIGHT of the Sun is not the same thing as the Sun itself correct?

It can be dark outside but that does not mean the

[alanmolstad]

So it can be dark but the sun is still unchanged in space.

Also it day out here as I write this but there is no Sun to see due to the clouds.

This is why the 4th day deals with the amount of LIGHT !!

So the sun was burning brightly at Dat 1 and 2 and 3 and on day 4...but what changed was the AMOUNT of light that was seen.

[alanmolstad]

You may ask WHY WAS THE SUN LIGHT NOT SEEN BEFORE? ...The answer is found at ***38

[disciple]

So it can be dark but the sun is still unchanged in space.

Also it day out here as I write this but there is no Sun to see due to the clouds.

This is why the 4th day deals with the amount of LIGHT !!

So the sun was burning brightly at Dat 1 and 2 and 3 and on day 4...but what changed was the AMOUNT of light that was seen.

No, the scripture says, then God made two great lights, not at some former time but then.

Full Definition of THEN
1: at that time
2:
a : soon after that : next in order of time <walked to the door, then turned>
b : following next after in order of position, narration, or enumeration : being next in a series <first came the clowns, and then came the elephants>
c : in addition : besides <then there is the interest to be paid>

[Saxon]

*** 38 what?? If you have something to say, say it.

[alanmolstad]

No, the scripture says, then God made two great lights,

Yes, that is what Im saying!


I think the idea you are trapped in is thinking that the "light" always = "the sun"

Let me phrase it a different way to show you what is being talked about on the 4th day.


lets say the the word "sun" = my car.

Lets say that the word "light" = the sound of my car.


Now lets just think about it a moment.

Can my car be running and I not hear it?.....yes.


Its that simple.



So now lets go back and just think about the "light" of the sun for a moment.
As I said, today it rained here, we never saw the sun at all.
But does this mean that the sun was removed from it's position in the heavens?.....NO!


There are many reasons why you might not see the sun tomorrow, and one of the best reasons is that it may be very cloudy where you live.

And......as we find out at *** 38 , that is the reason we dont actually see the sun for many of the Genesis days.
There still is "light" on the earth after a bit....but at first its just enough light to separate the "day from the night"

Now on a side note:...when at the start of the Genesis story we see the division between "day and night" we can understand that this is the same "day and night" we see today too!

Nothing has changed!

What is a "day"?...a day is caused when the position you are at on the earth spins to or away from facing the sun.
Thats why a thing called "day and night" happen.


There is no other reason for a thing called "day and night" to happen.

So right at the start of the Genesis story we have a sun that is burning very brightly in the darkness of space, and we have an earth that spins in it's orbit around that sun....thus giving us the "day and night" talked about on the 1st day!



Nothing here is tricky to understand.
The "day" talked about on the first Day of Genesis is the very same type of"day" we enjoy now in the year 2015.
Nothing has changed!


This is also why the writer of Genesis was so careful not to write that "God made the sun and moon"
The writer could NOT say that on the 4th day, for he has already told us that God had created all the stuff in the heavens on the 1st day!


That is the reason also we are ony dealing now on the 4th day with the change in the "AMOUNT" of light seen on the earth.
The "AMOUNT" of light has changed compared to the 1st day!


Thats all the 4th day is talking about.....its so simple....

[alanmolstad]

*** 38 what?? If you have something to say, say it.

If I have said anything that is not in the bible, let me know.

I listed *** 38 in an effort to get you to go read it to try to prove me wrong.
What will you find if you go check out that *** 38 listing?....you will find that God is talking to *** about the creation of the Earth!!!!!


God is talking about how the seas came to be...and God also tells *** why the Bible says the Earth was in "darkness".
The reason God tells *** that the earth was in the Genesis darkness was due to the thick clouds that he wrapped the world in...



go check it out...make sure you test everything I say by comparing to the Scriptures.

[alanmolstad]

38 Then the Lord spoke to *** out of the storm. He said:


“Who is this that obscures my plans
with words without knowledge?

Brace yourself like a man;
I will question you,
and you shall answer me.


“Where were you when I laid the earth’s foundation?
Tell me, if you understand.

Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know!
Who stretched a measuring line across it?

On what were its footings set,
or who laid its cornerstone—

while the morning stars sang together
and all the angels[a] shouted for joy?


“Who shut up the sea behind doors
when it burst forth from the womb,

when I made the clouds its garment
and wrapped it in thick darkness,






"when I laid the earth’s foundation?"...is talking abut the same moment in earth's history as we read about in Genesis!

"Who shut up the sea behind doors when it burst forth from the womb".....is talking about the Genesis 2 verse were we read about the whole earth being watered from underground.

"when I made the clouds its garment and wrapped it in thick darkness"....is telling us why the Earth was said to be in "darkness" at the Start of the genesis account....that reason is the 'clouds"

[alanmolstad]

So.....Im going to go over the Genesis creation story as it is written to us in the Bible.

This is not the same story that the Young Earth teachers want us to believe, but as I have said before if at any time you see me say something that you dont think is clearly talked about in the bible, just let me know.

I would enjoy showing you guys where the following appears in the Holy Text.





Here we go!


The Genesis story is told from an earth-bound point of view.
Many people try to read the story from a NASA spaceman ( as in - "Im up in space looking down at the earth") point of view, but this is wrong. The POV of the writer of the Genesi story is earth bound....

The point of view to have in your mind as you read the Genesis story is one of a person hovering over the dark sea.





The first thing God makes is the Sun and the stars and the moon and all the other stuff up there in outer space that we dont even know about yet or have names for,

So the source for ALL the "light" is created on "Day 1.

The earth is created as a dead and DRY world.

Over time the Bible talks about a mist of water vapor coming forth from underground .
The clouds that form wrap the earth in a thick darkness.
The rain the forms out of these clouds covered the earth is great seas.
It is these seas that are "waters"and "the deep" that are listed at the opening of the Genesis story.

As the clouds that were so thick they wrapped the earth is thick darkness start to thin out, it appears on earth to be just how you would expect it to be, with at first only a notable change between day and night seen....then later asthe clouds thin out more and more, lots of things become more able to be detected, and finally the sign that the thick Genesis clouds are totally cleared away is that even the dim lights of the stars are seen at night.

The bible does not say that the sun is made on the 4th day, rather what is talked about is the greater amounts of light that is seen as the thick clouds of *** 38 are cleared away .

and so -
The Bible does not say that the moon was madeon the 4th day, rather what is talked about is the dimmer light and this is to be expected to be talked about as the moon had already been created on Day 1, but now as the clouds thin away we see more and more things more clearly.

and also-
The Bible does not actually say that the stars were made on the 4th day, but this was added by some Bible editors who wanted the bible to agree with YEC.
What the Bible actually says about the stars on the 4th day is that they and the night are ruled over by the lesser light......(Its that simple, go check it out!)


The life on the earth is a product of the earth itself, and the earth is the source for all life.
Humans and animals share this same source , so in a very real way humans are a part of the earth that has come to life.

[alanmolstad]

So nothing so far as I have listed as talked about in the Bible stands against what we currently teach about in science and evolution.

There is no contradictions,

[disciple]

So.....Im going to go over the Genesis creation story as it is written to us in the Bible.

This is not the same story that the Young Earth teachers want us to believe, but as I have said before if at any time you see me say something that you dont think is clearly talked about in the bible, just let me know.

I would enjoy showing you guys where the following appears in the Holy Text.





Here we go!


The Genesis story is told from an earth-bound point of view.
Many people try to read the story from a NASA spaceman ( as in - "Im up in space looking down at the earth") point of view, but this is wrong. The POV of the writer of the Genesi story is earth bound....

The point of view to have in your mind as you read the Genesis story is one of a person hovering over the dark sea.





The first thing God makes is the Sun and the stars and the moon and all the other stuff up there in outer space that we dont even know about yet or have names for,

So the source for ALL the "light" is created on "Day 1.

The earth is created as a dead and DRY world.

Over time the Bible talks about a mist of water vapor coming forth from underground .
The clouds that form wrap the earth in a thick darkness.
The rain the forms out of these clouds covered the earth is great seas.
It is these seas that are "waters"and "the deep" that are listed at the opening of the Genesis story.

As the clouds that were so thick they wrapped the earth is thick darkness start to thin out, it appears on earth to be just how you would expect it to be, with at first only a notable change between day and night seen....then later asthe clouds thin out more and more, lots of things become more able to be detected, and finally the sign that the thick Genesis clouds are totally cleared away is that even the dim lights of the stars are seen at night.

The bible does not say that the sun is made on the 4th day, rather what is talked about is the greater amounts of light that is seen as the thick clouds of *** 38 are cleared away .

and so -
The Bible does not say that the moon was madeon the 4th day, rather what is talked about is the dimmer light and this is to be expected to be talked about as the moon had already been created on Day 1, but now as the clouds thin away we see more and more things more clearly.

and also-
The Bible does not actually say that the stars were made on the 4th day, but this was added by some Bible editors who wanted the bible to agree with YEC.
What the Bible actually says about the stars on the 4th day is that they and the night are ruled over by the lesser light......(Its that simple, go check it out!)


The life on the earth is a product of the earth itself, and the earth is the source for all life.
Humans and animals share this same source , so in a very real way humans are a part of the earth that has come to life.

Hi Alan, I appreciate your zeal for our discussion.
Here is the text we are discussing taken from 1599 Geneva Bible, I doubt the YEC folks were around in 1599.
“And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven, to separate the day from the night, and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years.
And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
God then made two great lights: the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made also the stars.
And God set them in the firmament of the heaven, to shine upon the earth,
And to rule in the day, and in the night, and to separate the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.
So the evening and the morning were the fourth day.”


Also I suggest you read the genealogy of Jesus as recorded in Luke 3:23-38. There is no ape between Adam and God. How could anyone suggest that the King of Kings has an ape in His ancestry?

[alanmolstad]

Hi Alan, I appreciate your zeal for our discussion.
Here is the text we are discussing taken from 1599 Geneva Bible, I doubt the YEC folks were around in 1599.




And when did da Vinci live again?


http://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/jonathanjonesblog/2011/nov/23/leonardo-da-vinci-earth-geology

While a lot of people in the church try to blame Morris for the rise of what is called today Young Earth Creationism (YEC) the truth is that Morris simply built on the work of many , many other guys before him..

The deal with Morris is that he became more popular among modern YEC writers as their main source.
Morris gets quoted a lot in all the YEC books and websites we see on the market today.

But the roots of YEC go back before Morris.


In the same way a lot of YEC writers try to blame everything on to Darwin, but the truth is (as we see in the link) that the path of science and understanding was being walked well before Darwin was born.

[alanmolstad]

However I do want you to understand that i want you to challenge everything I say...

This is not my first go-around,
This is not my first rodeo....

I have had guys pull out all kinds of things before in an effort to show me I'm wrong about this topic, I have had the best preach the YEC teachings to me,(Ken Ham personally!)

Thus I never take things personal, and Im in this for the hope of showing others what I have learned...and what I have learned is that all of Young Earth Creationism is a lie.



But lets get back to work here-

In your post you list a very old Bible, and you seem to be saying that because it shows the words "he made" that to you this might prove that I was wrong about that wording being added?

The problem you have is that you are just reading a copy of that bible that does not show the added words...
But there are versions of the Geneva Bible that do show in brackets [] the added words

The only reason I pointed you to a copy of the King James, is that most of the King James translations I read do have the added words appearing in brackets [] so its easy to spot them.

However if you want to use your Geneva Bible?, then lets use your Geneva Bible then!.....I got no problem with that.

Because if Im correct, if the words "he made" are truly added?, then this is not going to be a problem for us to deal with as all we need to do now is find a version of your Geneva Bible that does show the added words in brackets.


and........


and guess what?.....turns out that they are not that hard to find on the net!

http://www.reformedreader.org/gbn/gbngenesis.htm





Now lets read out of this copy of your Geneva Bible about the events of the 4th day!


"1:16 And God made two great {n} lights; the greater light to {o} rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: [he made] the stars also. "




I believe if you check the above quotation of your Geneva Bible, you will see I have correctly copied/pasted it for us to study.
Now if we remove the footnote listing thingys....we have the following -

1:16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: [he made] the stars also.






Notice something about the words "he made" in the above quotation?
They are in brackets....and that shows us the words that were added as it does in the King James I used..

So the two Bibles, both your Geneva Bible and my King James have the same understanding, and both show the Bible student that the words "he made" are simply added to the text and do not appear in the older translations.



So the fact is, the words "he made" are additions that guys that were pushing the YEC teachings twisted into the text.

[Saxon]

God is the source of life In Accordance With (IAW) creation. Chance is the source of life IAW evolution. Nothing common about that.

[Saxon]

There is a total contradiction between creation and evolution.

[alanmolstad]

There is a total contradiction between creation and evolution.

I invite you to be part of this conversation.

If you have a verse you think I need to look at?...then name it.

I also think if you review the few last posts you can be up to speed as to what we are talking about with the issues found in the Bible concerning the 4th day.

Please feel free to ask me any questions you might think of.

[Saxon]

I am attempting to show you what the bible actually says compared to what the Young Earther teachers tell us it says.

There are two theories, the young Earth folks and the Gap theorists. The Gap theory is interesting, but I lean towards the young earth.


I more or less dont try to tell people what the Text 'means", but rather in the beginning I just try to get people to open the Bible up to the story of Genesis and just stick to the text.

You should try to tell people what the Text means. So we can see what it is that you want us to see. It is much easier on your readers if you spill your guts the first time around so we don’t have to rehash it over and over trying to ring information out of you so we can carry on a decent conversation.




Now when I say, "Genesis does not teach evolution..." lots of people that are against evolution will interrupt me and say, "Hah! you admit it!"

I am not going to say, "Hah! you admit it!", I am going to say, If the Bible doesn’t teach it, what are you going on about extra-biblical tripe for?




But the point Im actually making to them is that while evolution is not clearly taught in the Bible, there is enough room within the words that are found in Genesis to allow for Evolution to be very true.

and....

Don’t change your mind, evolution is not taught in the Bible at all. There is not a word in the Bible that even hints that evolution is true.




and I also point out to people that the teaching of Young Earth Creationism are NOT FOUND in the genesis Text at all !

There is more young earth in the Bible that is directly from the text compared to the nothing of evolution that isn’t in the text. You want us to read the text, I want you to believe the text.




As I have already talked about, I attended an 8-week ORIGINS cl*** taught by the leading YEC teacher of our time, a Mr Ken Ham.
I listen to everything the guy had to say.
I heard all his teachings.
I went over all his material.
I became very up to date as far as what is the argument behind the Young Earth Creationist teachings.

So in other words.....There is nothing I need yet to see or read or hear that has not already been shown me, taught to me, or spoken to me from the best YEC teacher alive already!
Lots of people I run into in church or on church forums like this one, that believe in the teachings of the YEC teachers, always have this idea that "Alan needs to read this"...or "Alan you need to look at this website"...or "Alan you need to get right with god"..etc,etc,etc...

I don’t think that you need to get right with God, I think that you need to find out just what evolution teaches.




All I can tell you is that I have done my homework...I have put in the time to study this issue, and I have already listened to the same things from far better speakers and teachers...

I find all the teachings of the YEC to be in error.

I find even the best Young Earth teachers to be in error.

and yet......

What, in your opinion, is the error?




and yet i must point out one more thing I have learned over the years on this topic.

I have learned that every once in a while I run into a guy who at first does disagree with me, but has the ability to see past his gut feelings about what im saying, and is able to open the Bible fresh......fresh and free of all the YEC hype....

And have a moment of "clarity".....

They will see things anew.

They will be able to read the Genesis story with a new and deeper understanding and appreciation of it.
They soon come to the same conclusion that I have come to...and that is, that there is no anti-evolutionary arguments found in the Genesis account.
The two works might not say the same things the same way, but they don't actually disagree either.

When you arrive at a deeper understanding and it leads you away from God and scripture, you are digging the wrong hole and you will be buried in it. The Bible doesn't teach evolution because evolution is the corrupt idea from a corrupt mind.




If you would like, we can go over the Genesis text, verse by verse, and see how what we are reading does not in and of itself disagree with science and evolution?....

Or we can talk about a few of the ideas taught in YEC and how they compare to what the Bible says?...

Or if you have a few verses that you think I need to address?

Just let me know..

You are the one that is trying to convince others, so it is up to you to do the convincing; just let me know.

[alanmolstad]

How could anyone suggest that the King of Kings has an ape in His ancestry?


dust......humans have dust in our history.
the ground of the earth it teaches are where we are from.


When we read the creation story we see that when God created humans, He did not just clap his hands and we suddenly "popped" into existence from nothingness....

Rather we are made from the same "earth" that the animals (like the great apes you list) are also from.

The Earth is our "source material" if you will.

[Saxon]

Ok....

The first thing we need to deal with is the "light" issue in the genesis text.
It was over this one issue that I did challenge the teacher Ken Ham on.

I remember at the time the ORIGINS cl*** he was teaching was dealing with the "light" and the fact that according to Ken Ham, God made a type of light at the start of genesis that had no known source.
Then later Ken taught that God made the source for light on the 4th day, when the Bible says God made the sun and the moon.


I had a problem with this whole idea.
The problem I had is that not one part of Ken's teachings were based on what the Bible was saying that I was reading!

Ken reads that God did not make a source for the light until day 4, so Ken's answer as to"Where was the light from" was to say that the light from the stars was made before the stars....and that this is also seen in a type of sourceless light talked about in the Book of Revelation.

However I noticed that the bible actually says something very different than that whole line of BS...


When I read Genesis I see at Genesis 1:1 that God creates the "Heavens" and while I know there are many meanings to the word "heavens" I do know for a fact that it can be talking about all the stars and our sun, and the moon, etc..

So when I read the story of genesis I never face the question, "Where is the source for the light?" because I have the source for the light created right at the start of the whole story!


This saves me from needing to invent a way to have light with no source...
It saves me from needing to invent reasons...
It saves me from needing to have a type of light that no one can point to today as being "just like it"

YEC type of "light" is not found in today's world.
But the light I read about in Genesis is just the same normal light I see today..I can point to it and say, "There it is still"

From this statement you show me that you have no concept of what Genesis teaches about light or the order of creation.

Genesis 1:3 is not referring to the creation of light but rather the introduction of THE Light to the new creation that was spoken into existence. See John 1:4 and 5 to see the source of light in Genesis 1:3. This light is very much in the world today. Jesus is the light of the world.

The same normal light you see today was created in Genesis 1:16 on the fourth day.

Genesis 1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

John 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
John 1:5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

Genesis 1:16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.

[alanmolstad]

How could anyone suggest that the King of Kings has an ape in His ancestry?


dust......humans have dust in our history.
the ground of the earth it teaches are where we are from.


When we read the creation story we see that when God created humans, He did not just clap his hands and we suddenly "popped" into existence from nothingness....

Rather we are made from the same "earth" that the animals (like the great apes you list) are also from.

The Earth is our "source material" if you will.

[Saxon]

If it wasn't for evolution why would you think that the days of creation were not 24 hour days?

Man was made on the sixth day, not over a six day period.

The seventh day was a day of rest, not a creation day. The Sabbath day is what that is referring to, a 24 hour day

The seventh day of Genesis is over. you are referring to what some call the 7 days of human history using the statement that one day is as a thousand years to the Lord. It may be a thousand years to the Lord but to us humans it is still 24 hours.

[Saxon]

I am available Sa****ay and Sunday from 1000 to 2200 (15 and 16 Aug 2015 Atlantic Standard Time). I hope you show up.

[Saxon]

your issues with the fourth day is as bogus as a three dollar bill.

[Saxon]

You are not a teacher on the forum, you are supposed to be engaging in conversation. How about a verse number so we don't have to play unnecessary guessing games with you?

[Saxon]

Explain how this has anything remotely related to evolution.

[alanmolstad]

you evols think man came from monkeys, but the Bible tells us that we are made in the image of god.

is that all it says?

What do you mean?


im asking if that is all the Bible tells us about how God made us?

The Bible tells us that we are made in the image of god, not in the image of an ape!


How nice,but I was reading in the Bible and I noticed something that i think is very relevant to this topic.
What did you read?

I was reading at Genesis 2 that man is actually made of "dust"

Yes that it true.

So you believe that the Bible tells us that we are both made in the image of God, yet also made of dust?...is that what you believe the Bible is telling us?

Yes...God formed the made out of dust, and we are made in the image of god....so that totally destroys your idea that man evolved from a money.


Fine, fine, now so we both agree that the bible teaches that mad is made from the earth?

Er, what do you mean the earth?

I mean the ground of this planet,we are made from it?


I guess.

Good, so being made in the image of God does not mean that god could not have used the dust of the ground to make us out of then?

No, we are made in the image of god , but it is true also that we are made out of the dust of the ground of the earth.



Good, lets push on then to consider the animals.
Are the animals made out of the earth too?

The animals are not made in the image of God, only man is.

Yes I get that, but are the animals made out of the same source material as humans according to the Bible?

Source material?

Well we have already traced back the story of the creation of humans to the earth itself, I just want to know if the creation of all the animals also cane be traced back to the earth itself....according to the Bible?


Well, it is true that God does command the earth to bring forth the animals, and it also does say clearly that God formed the animals out of the ground of the earth...so I guess humans and animals do share that in common with each other.


Great!

But animals are not made in the image of God!

Thats okay with me, I got no problem with that.
So lets just back-up a moment and get straight what the Bible is teaching as to the origin of life, and what we see is that according to the Bible is that all life, both animal and human, is traced back to a single source, and that source is the earth itself?


I guess that is true, but only we are made in the image of God.

Ok, lets now consider if this is any different at all from what evolution teaches?

Its very different, for evolution teaches we came from monkeys.

Well, thats what a lot of people try to say evolution teaches, but I have to ask, "Is that it?"

What do you mean?

I mean did all human life simple "pop" into existence as a fully formed money that later evolved into a human according to the teaches of evolution?, or was there some evolution before the monkey part thats so popular?

Well I guess the money is said to have evolved too.

Yes, I think you are correct about that.
I agree that according to the teachings of science and evolution we do see that there are earlyer forms of life that are said to have evolved into the "monkey" we always hear about.

So what?

So,I just was wondering, "What came before that?"

Before the money?

Well yes, but then what came before that?..and before that?...and before that?...just keep tracing the evolution of life back untill you get to what source?

Source?

Yes, what is the final source for life on the earth?
What is life's start?...what are the very early smallest building blocks that would go on to evolve into life according to the teachings of evolution.

Well that would be the elements , minerals and stuff that went into the mix that came out later with a thing that was alive I would guess?

Thats a good answer....so, would you agree with me that the final evolutionary source for life on the earth according to the teachings of evolution would be the earth itself?

Yes,,,,I see what you are saying now, and that is correct, evolution will trace back all life to the source being the earth itself, but ast way different than what we read in the Bible...




is it?.....is it really?

[Saxon]

the light of the first day was not created but was exposed to the world being created. Jesus is the light of the world. Do you not comprehend?

The clouds didn't disappear until the flood in Noah's days.

John 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

John 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

John 1:5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

[alanmolstad]

Bold type is the typical person that fully trusts the YEC teachers

Normal type = me







You evols think man came from monkeys, but the Bible tells us that we are made in the image of god.

is that all it says?

What do you mean?


im asking if that is all the Bible tells us about how God made us?

The Bible tells us that we are made in the image of god, not in the image of an ape!


How nice,but I was reading in the Bible and I noticed something that I think is very relevant to this topic.

What did you read?

I was reading in Genesis that man is actually made of "dust"

Yes that it true.

So you believe that the Bible tells us that we are both made in the image of God, yet also made of dust?...is that what you believe the Bible is telling us?

Yes...God formed the man out of dust, and we are made in the image of god....so that totally destroys your idea that man evolved from a money.


Fine, fine, now so we both agree that the bible teaches that man is made from the earth?

Er, what do you mean the earth?

I mean the ground of this planet,we are made from it?


I guess.

Good, so being made in the image of God does not mean that god could not have used the dust of the ground to make us out of then?

No, we are made in the image of god , but it is true also that we are made out of the dust of the ground of the earth.



Good, lets push on then to consider the animals.
Are the animals made out of the earth too?

The animals are not made in the image of God, only man is.

Yes I get that, but are the animals made out of the same source material as humans according to the Bible?

Source material?

Well we have already traced back the story of the creation of humans to the earth itself, I just want to know if the creation of all the animals also cane be traced back to the earth itself....according to the Bible?


Well, it is true that God does command the earth to bring forth the animals, and it also does say clearly that God formed the animals out of the ground of the earth...so I guess humans and animals do share that in common with each other.


Great!

But animals are not made in the image of God!

Thats okay with me, I got no problem with that.
So lets just back-up a moment and get straight what the Bible is teaching as to the origin of life, and what we see is that according to the Bible is that all life, both animal and human, is traced back to a single source, and that source is the earth itself?


I guess that is true, but only we are made in the image of God.

Ok, lets now consider if this is any different at all from what evolution teaches?

Its very different, for evolution teaches we came from monkeys.

Well, thats what a lot of people try to say evolution teaches, but I have to ask, "Is that it?"

What do you mean?

I mean did all human life simple "pop" into existence as a fully formed money that later evolved into a human according to the teaches of evolution?, or was there some evolution before the monkey part thats so popular?

Well I guess the monkey is said to have evolved too.

Yes, I think you are correct about that.
I agree that according to the teachings of science and evolution we do see that there are earlyer forms of life that are said to have evolved into the "monkey" we always hear about.

So what?

So,I just was wondering, "What came before that?"

Before the monkey?

Well yes, but then what came before that?..and before that?...and before that?...just keep tracing the evolution of life back untill you get to what source?

Source?

Yes, what is the final source for life on the earth?
What is life's start?...what are the very early smallest building blocks that would go on to evolve into life according to the teachings of evolution.

Well that would be the elements , minerals and stuff that went into the mix that came out later with a thing that was alive I would guess?

Thats a good answer....so, would you agree with me that the final evolutionary source for life on the earth according to the teachings of evolution would be the earth itself?

Yes,,,,I see what you are saying now, and that is correct, evolution will trace back all life to the source being the earth itself, but ast way different than what we read in the Bible...




Oh is it?.....is it really?

[Saxon]

Your "mental" filter is what has you confused. God is the source for any light and Jesus is the first light in Genesis.

[alanmolstad]

Your "mental" filter is what has you confused. God is the source for any light and Jesus is the first light in Genesis.

Saxon, if at any time you read something I have posted that you think the bible does not support?...just ask me to 'Back that up!"...."Show me a verse!" and I will be happy to drop back and supply a verse that supports anything I have said.


But as I dont see any requests yet to back up what i have posted so far...Im going to keep going and build on the post I just wrote above that shows a normal conversation I have had on this topic over the years...

[Saxon]

Anything that you say about evolution is not supported by the Bible. if you can't support your comments when you make them I am sure that you won't after the fact. Evolution says we came from lower creatures and the Bible says that God created us from the dust of the earth and breathed the breath of life into us. We did not evolve. Your ancestors may have been apes, mine were men that God created as men.

[alanmolstad]

Anything that you say about evolution is not supported by the Bible. if you can't support your comments when you make them I am sure that you won't after the fact. Evolution says we came from lower creatures and the Bible says that God created us from the dust of the earth and breathed the breath of life into us. We did not evolve. Your ancestors may have been apes, mine were men that God created as men.

If you have a question or want me to look at a verse or two?...

But if not?
well, then you don't have much to add to our conversation and I will return to just encouraging Disciple to toss a few ideas my way... :)

[alanmolstad]

I am available Sa****ay and Sunday from 1000 to 2200 (15 and 16 Aug 2015 Atlantic Standard Time). I hope you show up.

I have never really learned why whenever I have free time on the weekends there simply are never any other people posting on the forum, yet the moment I go back on the road Monday morning and only have my silly cellphone to check the we, suddenly there are tons of new posts and all sorts of things I would love to be able to respond to but simply cant due to the limitations I face on the road.????


I cant say for sure where I will be this weekend, as I have to go do a Kendo armor sparing demonstration in a nearby town, but I can say and be very sure of the fact that I do check this forum for new posts many times a day on Sa****ay as I take little breaks from my chores.

[alanmolstad]

If it wasn't for evolution why would you think that the days of creation were not 24 hour days?


.

I have answered this question a few times already on this same topic so i dont want to bore people with the same drawn-out answer,but the short answer is that
the writer of the Genesis story goes to great care to make sure we know for 100%that the first 6 days of the creation week have ended.
However there are 7 days.....

and there is no ending in the story of genesis to the 7th day.

Nor is there an ending taught for the 7th day at any place in the Old test.

Noris there even a hint that the 7th day has ended at any point in the whole entire bible!


My "crazy" idea is that I simply dont add things to the Bible.






now in response to this many YEC teachers will try all kinds of reasons why what Im saying is not the truth.

They go after the 7th day,,,they try to turn that day into something other than being "a day"

They make it spiritual....
they make it symbolic....
they turn it inside out...
they add a pile of unlisted things to it...

All this in the effort to make it not be the one thing it clearly is -
"A Day"


Its a day with no listed ending.




If someone were to disagree with me?
Fine, just point to the verse that teaches that the 7th Day of the Creation story has ended.






But you got no verse that clearly teaches that the 7th Day has ended?

Then dont ask me to tack-on an ending just on your say-so.....

[alanmolstad]

The clouds didn't disappear until the flood in Noah's days.

.

Actuallywhat the Bible says is that the earth was created as a dead and dry world...Then a mist came up from underground and watered the whole earth.
The verse I listed in *** 38 tells us that when the water that covered the earth in genesis came forth, it also wrapped the earth in thick darkness.

Notice that this is NOT talking about the story of the ark, but it tells us clearly that this is when God laid the foundations of the earth....(clearly the same moment in earth's history as the Creation story deals with)



The Bible tells us that the water that covered the earth in genesis "Burst forth"...this is a very good description of what science tells us really happened when water vapor came out via volcanic activity

[alanmolstad]

How about a verse number so we don't have to play unnecessary guessing games with you?
as times I may prefer to simply give rather questionable-foggy verse listings as a means to encourage the person Im talking to to feel that if they search on their own they may find that the verse Im pointing to does not teach what i say it does.

Other times I do list the clear verse and its location.

I guess its just a difference due only to the need I see the other person has to find the truth for themselves, and not their need to be "spoon-fed" by me...

[alanmolstad]

You should try to tell people what the Text means. So we can see what it is that you want us to see. It is much easier on your readers if you spill your guts the first time around so we don’t have to rehash it over and over trying to ring information out of you so we can carry on a decent conversation.

.
I see in the scriptures that Jesus would many times not simply tell people his ideas, but rather would ask the people he was talking to a question.
The idea Christ had was that by asking people a question the people had to think for themselves a moment as they looked for the answer to the question Christ asked them..."Who do you say I am?"


This is one of the ways I use to show people the truth that YEC is all based on a big fat lie.

I will tell you a story:
As I have said before I attended an 8-week cl*** taught by the world's leading Young Earth Teacher, a Mr Ken Ham.
For all that time I sat in his cl*** listening, I never once bothered to ask a question.
I just guessed that it was totally pointless...as he was the world's expert in this area and im just a normal Bible student.

Yet one day I heard something......

We were listening to Ken teach about the order of creation, when suddenly I heard something about "God created light first"
That statement sparked me to raise my hand and ask the only question i ever asked in that whole cl***.
I knew what i was hearing simply did not agree with what the Bible stated,,,and I knew I wanted to show the friends I had in the cl***with me that I had caught this world's most well known expert in YEC in a big fat lie....

But rather than simply standing up and denouncing the teachings I was hearing,and stating my counter ideas I asked, (more or less asked this) "You said that that the first thing created was the "light", but what does the bible say was the first thing God created "In the beginning"?



Later after cl*** a bunch of my friends came up to me and we talked about how I had pointed out a fatal flaw in Ken Ham's arguments....

You see all of Ham's argument is all based on the idea that God made light before he made a source for that light.
This mind-set has cause all the other issues and all the other anti-science, and anti-evolution arguments to twist their way into the minds of Christians.

All because the YEC teachers think God made "light" before he made the "sun"


I just was able to point out with my one question to the whole cl*** that the Bible teaches that the first thing God made was the "Heavens" and as the sun is part of the heavens, as well as the moon, and the stars, we dont need to worry at all that we dont have a good light source!

The YEC teachers believe God made the light before he made the light source.

The Bible teaches that God made the source before it even talks about the light.



YEC Teachers need to fight against science and evolution only because they totally screwed up their attempt to read the simple words found in the Bible, and so they have had to add bits, and twist in a whole crazy way to light the earth.....all based on a mis-reading of the text.

I dont need to fight against science nor evolution..
I just stick close to the words found in the text, and when i do I dont have any issues with how science teacher earth evolved life.

[alanmolstad]

I am not going to say, "Hah! you admit it!", I am going to say, If the Bible doesn’t teach it, what are you going on about extra-biblical tripe for?


.

Here is an experiment:

You and a friend stand on opposite sides of a room with some type of object in the middle of the room that you both are looking at.

The description you both have of the very same object will never be word for word the same.
This is because you see one side of the object while you friend sees a totally different side of that same object.
Your point of view is always going to be different.
The same object can have different looking sides, and as you can only see the side turned your way, you will naturally describe the object with different words, different terms that your friend will use.

So you both are saying different things about the same object...so who is right?...you or your fiend?

The answer is that you both can be seen as being "correct" in that you are stating facts as they appear to you.





Science looks at earth's history, this is the very same history that I talk about in the Genesis story and at ***38.
Same things are talked about....same issues....same historical events are being described.

But yet the words and terms that science will use are never going to be the very same words we find in the Bible.
The point of view of both science and the Bible different.

Yet, what you find true is that the words found in the Bible, will harmonize with what science and evolution is teaching us.



Things can be different, sound very different, yet when placed next to each other are able to hold hands in union.

[alanmolstad]

What, in your opinion, is the error?




.


As far as I saw in the 8-week ORIGINS cl*** taught by Ken Ham personally to me and a small cl*** of my Bible student friends, the biggest error Ken and the rest of the YEC teachers make is that they feel the need to invent a "source" for the light first talked about on Day 1.

They feel trapped.....they look at the Text, see the creation of the light, and have to quickly find a way to have a light without any listed source.

This has caused the YEC teachers to come up with all kinds of answers as to where the light came from...
Every time we went over both Day 1 and day 4 in the cl***, we had to once again hear the latest ideas from the minds of the YEc teachers as to how the earth could have light and yet there was no sun yet....

This points out the one thing I noticed about the YEC teachers and what they all have in common,,,they like to add to the Bible.

While most Christians would never want to be seen as adding words to the Bible given the warning in the book of Revelations against doing that very thing, yet the YEC teachers are openly adding words to the text as a means to maintain their ideas abut early earth history.

YEC teachers have no restraint when it comes to changing things as they appear in the Bible.....


By the time they have added enough to answer the question, "Where was the ight from?" they have gotten over the "hump" and no longer feel afraid to be guilty of adding words to the Bible to fit their ideas.



So, to sum up:
The biggest error the YEC teachers make is that they dont stick to the text as its written, and misread what is written, and add things to the Bible to fix it to agree with YEC teachings.


all of this is due to the issue of the "light"





And that is why I really go after that topic to, for if I can show you that there is a listed normal source for all the light in the story of Genesis, then that helps people understand that there is no reason to feel the need to add things to the story.
The light returns to being just "normal light"

No need to make it "special light"

No need to make it all "symbolic"

No need to make it all "so spiritual"

No need to invent a source for the light...

No need to make it out to be anything other than.........than what?............other than what the word that is written says it is!!!!!!!


The light....is...........light.




Its that simple.
The light talked about is the very same light we see today....nothing has changed...

Thereis no need to make this so tricky......

[Saxon]

Your explanation of the light in Genesis 1:3 is not comparable with scripture. The light in Genesis 1:3 was NOT a creation but a revealing of THE light. Jesus is the light of the world.

Genesis 1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

[Saxon]

I hope you have a successful demonstration and maybe I will see you a bit Sa****ay and maybe more Sunday.

[alanmolstad]

Your explanation of the light in Genesis 1:3 is not comparable with scripture. The light in Genesis 1:3 was NOT a creation but a revealing of THE light......
.
I think you are confused as to who is saying what...


I have talked about that while I was in the cl*** room learning the YEC teachings from Mr Ham, that he taught that the first thing the Bible tells us god made was "the light".....



that is NOT what i believe!



but to make sure I am telling you clearly what I see the text talking abut, I will say one more time what Im reading in the Text.


here we go-

The first thing the Bible tells us God "created" was the heavens.
I believe this is simply the correct word to describe .....EVERYTHING!
Every sun...all the different worlds..all the moons, and the gas, all the galaxies...all that "stuff" out there in space and even the space itself.

All that I believe is correctly called in the Bible by the single term, "heavens"

So I have therefore a source for all the light talked about later, both the light of the 1st day, as well as the lights for the 4th day.
All the light has its source listed for us in the very first verse of the Bible.


So in a very real way I agree with you about the unveiling of the light with the words, "Let there be light".

I just try to show people that the bible talks about the source for that light even before it talks about the light itself!







So there is no need to find something else for the word "light" to mean.
No need to run around and turn the word "light" into something meaning other things....

No need to make it spiritual.

No need to make it symbolic

No need to make it magic light.

No need to search all other the whole rest of the bible for ways to understand the word "light" aside from the normal meaning of the word...


To me, the "light" of Genesis is just simply that....simply normal light that we still see today!






It dont have to be anything more than what it says it is...

[alanmolstad]

I hope you have a successful demonstration and maybe I will see you a bit Sa****ay and maybe more Sunday.
Record high temps today......
Im close to 60 years old,,,,
I will be wearing full Kendo armor
Outside in the sun for a long-long time.

Oh, and did I tell you that Im to spar against a kid in his early 20s and is in his prime and way-way better than I am?



Im going to die....er, melt actually......

[Saxon]

I have answered this question a few times already on this same topic so i dont want to bore people with the same drawn-out answer,but the short answer is that
the writer of the Genesis story goes to great care to make sure we know for 100%that the first 6 days of the creation week have ended.
However there are 7 days.....

and there is no ending in the story of genesis to the 7th day.

Nor is there an ending taught for the 7th day at any place in the Old test.

Noris there even a hint that the 7th day has ended at any point in the whole entire bible!


My "crazy" idea is that I simply dont add things to the Bible.

I thought that was my crazy idea! I see no indication that the text is referring to any “special” length to the 6 days of creation and the Sabbath day model. Your idea that the seventh day is not over is a total fantasy. God has been back to work, if not before, then as soon as Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

You have added to the thought of the text that a day in the creation text was different than what is the normal 24 hour period. Show me where the text indicates the day was not the standard 24 hour day.

The thought that the seventh day has not ended is false seeing that it is the model for the Sabbath Day, a 24 hour period.




now in response to this many YEC teachers will try all kinds of reasons why what Im saying is not the truth.

They go after the 7th day,,,they try to turn that day into something other than being "a day"

They make it spiritual....
they make it symbolic....
they turn it inside out...
they add a pile of unlisted things to it...

All this in the effort to make it not be the one thing it clearly is -
"A Day"

You have made the 7th day spiritual and symbolic by saying that it never ended. You are now saying it is “A Day”. A day is a 24 hour period




Its a day with no listed ending.

If it were a day that never ended then it would be a spiritual and symbolic day.



If someone were to disagree with me?
Fine, just point to the verse that teaches that the 7th Day of the Creation story has ended.

You show me where the text states that the day has never ended. Without that you are speculating, not staying with the text as presented in the Bible.




But you got no verse that clearly teaches that the 7th Day has ended?

Then dont ask me to tack-on an ending just on your say-so.....

You have no verse that teaches that the 7th day has not ended. I can point to the first 6 days that have clearly ended and the fact that God has resumed working and the fact that the 7th day is the model for the Sabbath, a 24 hour time period that is every 7th day. I am on a more solid footing than you with mere speculation and absolutely no scripture to help your speculative stand.

[alanmolstad]

Your idea that the seventh day is not over is a total fantasy.


What Im doing is not adding an ending where none is recorded.
Im not forcing an ending where none appears.

I have no need to force an ending.
That is where my ideas are different than the ideas of the YEC teachers.
The YEC teacher needs to add their own ending to the 7th day or their whole argument falls like a house of cards.

I dont need to force an ending into the text to make it agree with my ideas.




What I say to the YEC teachers that demand an ending to the 7th day is this - "Quote me a single verse in the whole Bible that even hints that the 7th Day of Genesis is over and I will drop my point!"



So far, I have never heard anyone try to quote a verse that proves the 7th day has ended....

Oh I have heard all kinds of reasons why the 7th day is over.....all kinds of things people have dreamed up on their own.





But when I ask for a verse that supports their invented ideas?............................................ ..............
.................................................. .......................
.................................................. ......
...................................... the sound of crickets is heard....

[alanmolstad]

A day is a 24 hour period





.
always only 24 hours eh?

Have you noticed how long the first use of the term "day" in the Bible is talking about?


Want to change your answer?






the truth is, there is no such "always means" to the term "Day" in the Bible...nor even in how we use the same word today in conversations.

"In the day of our fathers they always respected the law"...etc...so Im saying that for a single 24 hour long day they respected the Law, and then aside from that what?....no respect?




or... "In that day that the Lord created heaven and the earth, and man walked the fields, and rain fell on the land and blessed it...etc"...am I saying that on the single 24 hour long day that God created the heavens and the earth, and man, and rain, and crops and etc...that all that happens in one single 24 hour day?



The truth is, that there is no such thing as a "rule" that must force the reader to understand that a day has a limited time limit.
The truth is, that the word "day" can refer to an unlimited amount of time....it can mean "forever"
Orit can mean 24 hours...or it can mean 24 billion years.....



or, the truth is...it can mean several things at the same time....
It can be used by a writer to form verses of a song or a poem....it can separate parts of a song or a written work from other parts....it can be a word to be used to help people remember a story....

Lots and lots of ways to use and understand the words....

there is no such "rule" that the word "day" must only mean "24 hours"

In the Bible, the word "day" has many ways of being understood.

Some "days"are only talking about a shorter time or perhaps 12 hours long at most.
Some days are talking about 24 hours.
Some days are said to be a year long each
some days are said to be about 1000 years long...


there is no rule in the Bible that makes a "day" talked about in genesis only 24 hours long and cant means other things at the same time....

[alanmolstad]

some guy tried to tell me once that because the days of genesis are numbeted, that this will force a limited 24 hr understanding.


I countered this with...."I saw a sign telling me that a store was open "5 days A Week!" are we to understand that this store opened up for 5 days and then closed forever and never opened again?....no!....even if the word "day" in the sentence has a number connected to it you cant force it to mean such a limited time"


"Open 5 days a week", has both a limited time it is talking about...and an unlimited amount of time it is talking about.
Both are working at the same time....


thus in the same way, the numbered "days" of Genesis can have both a limited about of time they talk to us about, and an unlimited amount of time that actually cover in history..

Both meanings true, both working at the same time.

So I can read the narration of the genesis story and see the word day as both limited, and also speaking about a vast uncountable number of years stretching into the billions and billions of years...

[Saxon]

Actuallywhat the Bible says is that the earth was created as a dead and dry world...Then a mist came up from underground and watered the whole earth.
The verse I listed in *** 38 tells us that when the water that covered the earth in genesis came forth, it also wrapped the earth in thick darkness.

Genesis 1:1 and 2 differs with you. Was the darkness upon the face of the deep dust of your dry world, or was it the deep water that the spirit of God moved upon? As you say, stick to the text.

*** 38 is a description of how God arranged the water that covered the Earth into its place to reveal the dry land. Genesis 1:2 says the Earth was covered in water in the beginning and you say the opposite. I am staying with what the Bible states.

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Genesis 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.




Notice that this is NOT talking about the story of the ark, but it tells us clearly that this is when God laid the foundations of the earth....(clearly the same moment in earth's history as the Creation story deals with)

It rained for 40 days (24 hour period) and the fountains of the deep poured water onto the face of the whole earth. Where did all that rain come from? Genesis 1:6 in the Amplified version give the answer to that. It came from the waters that were above the earth. This water above the earth is what *** 38 is referring to.

Genesis 8:2 The fountains also of the deep and the windows of heaven were stopped, and the rain from heaven was restrained;

Genesis 1:6 (AMP) And God said, Let there be a firmament [the expanse of the sky] in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters [above].




[B]The Bible tells us that the water that covered the earth in genesis "Burst forth"...this is a very good description of what science tells us really happened when water vapor came out via volcanic activity

Water vapor from a volcano could hardly flood the whole earth in 40 years let alone 40 days. There was water from fountains bursting forth from the ground and rain from heaven (earth’s atmosphere). After the flood the water filter that kept out the radiation of the sun was depleted and the life time of man was greatly reduced. Stick to the text.

So science tells us what "really happened"? I guess that you think that God is not capable of telling us what "really" happened?

[Saxon]

Foggy answers lead to bad communication.

[Saxon]

I see in the scriptures that Jesus would many times not simply tell people his ideas, but rather would ask the people he was talking to a question.
The idea Christ had was that by asking people a question the people had to think for themselves a moment as they looked for the answer to the question Christ asked them..."Who do you say I am?"

First of all you are not Jesus and secondly I have yet to experience you ever coming back to explain what you have said as Jesus did on many occasions.




This is one of the ways I use to show people the truth that YEC is all based on a big fat lie.

There is definitely a “big fat lie” going on somewhere, but I don’t think that it is from the “YEC” folks. Their support comes from the Bible weather we are in agreement or not. Your support comes not from the Bible as you have clearly stated that the Bible does not teach evolution. Who is closer to the truth???




I will tell you a story:
As I have said before I attended an 8-week cl*** taught by the world's leading Young Earth Teacher, a Mr Ken Ham.
For all that time I sat in his cl*** listening, I never once bothered to ask a question.
I just guessed that it was totally pointless...as he was the world's expert in this area and im just a normal Bible student.

Yet one day I heard something......

We were listening to Ken teach about the order of creation, when suddenly I heard something about "God created light first"
That statement sparked me to raise my hand and ask the only question i ever asked in that whole cl***.
I knew what i was hearing simply did not agree with what the Bible stated,,,and I knew I wanted to show the friends I had in the cl***with me that I had caught this world's most well known expert in YEC in a big fat lie....

But rather than simply standing up and denouncing the teachings I was hearing,and stating my counter ideas I asked, (more or less asked this) "You said that that the first thing created was the "light", but what does the bible say was the first thing God created "In the beginning"?



Later after cl*** a bunch of my friends came up to me and we talked about how I had pointed out a fatal flaw in Ken Ham's arguments....

You see all of Ham's argument is all based on the idea that God made light before he made a source for that light.
This mind-set has cause all the other issues and all the other anti-science, and anti-evolution arguments to twist their way into the minds of Christians.

All because the YEC teachers think God made "light" before he made the "sun"

I have responded to this story in a previous post and I still think that it is brought out of a false ***umption that the first light was “created”. Not so.



I just was able to point out with my one question to the whole cl*** that the Bible teaches that the first thing God made was the "Heavens" and as the sun is part of the heavens, as well as the moon, and the stars, we dont need to worry at all that we dont have a good light source!

The Bible states that the sun and the moon were created on the 4th day, a fact you wish to ignore.




The YEC teachers believe God made the light before he made the light source.

God WAS the light that he exposed to the earth he created




The Bible teaches that God made the source before it even talks about the light.

Now is not the time to be “foggy”. Where does the Bible teach that??




YEC Teachers need to fight against science and evolution only because they totally screwed up their attempt to read the simple words found in the Bible, and so they have had to add bits, and twist in a whole crazy way to light the earth.....all based on a mis-reading of the text.

I think it is your camp that is totally screwed up in the reading the simple words found in the Bible. Since when does the Bible need another source to explain the Bible?? Especially from people that think that their ancestors were apes?????




I dont need to fight against science nor evolution..
I just stick close to the words found in the text, and when i do I dont have any issues with how science teacher earth evolved life.

If you would just stick to the words of the Bible you would see that there is no room for evolution to explain the Bible creation text.

[Saxon]

Evolution talks about a totally different "object" than the Bible.

[Saxon]

I have answered you light problem several times. God WAS the light.

[Saxon]

I think you are confused as to who is saying what...

There is no confusion on my part as to who said what, God said. (See Genesis 1:3)

Genesis 1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.




I have talked about that while I was in the cl*** room learning the YEC teachings from Mr Ham, that he taught that the first thing the Bible tells us god made was "the light".....

that is NOT what i believe!

Mr. Ham is a man and may not get it to perfection in one point. You don’t throw the baby out with the bath water.




but to make sure I am telling you clearly what I see the text talking abut, I will say one more time what Im reading in the Text.


here we go-

The first thing the Bible tells us God "created" was the heavens.
I believe this is simply the correct word to describe .....EVERYTHING!
Every sun...all the different worlds..all the moons, and the gas, all the galaxies...all that "stuff" out there in space and even the space itself.

All that I believe is correctly called in the Bible by the single term, "heavens"

Yes, that is the overall view of what was done. The next is a more detailed description of when it was done. Read the text!!




So I have therefore a source for all the light talked about later, both the light of the 1st day, as well as the lights for the 4th day.
All the light has its source listed for us in the very first verse of the Bible.

Yes, that is the overall view of what was done. The next is a more detailed description of when it was done. Read the text!!




So in a very real way I agree with you about the unveiling of the light with the words, "Let there be light".

I just try to show people that the bible talks about the source for that light even before it talks about the light itself!

You need to get it in the right prospective and see that the Bible is all you need to no the truth of creation.

How do you come to terms with the idea that man came about through millions of years of evolving from a one celled creature to a fully functioning human and the Bible stating that God created man out of the dust of the earth and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life? God breathed into his nostrils, not into an amoeba. (See Genesis 2:7)

Genesis 2:7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.




So there is no need to find something else for the word "light" to mean.
No need to run around and turn the word "light" into something meaning other things....

No need to make it spiritual.

No need to make it symbolic

No need to make it magic light.

No need to search all other the whole rest of the bible for ways to understand the word "light" aside from the normal meaning of the word...


To me, the "light" of Genesis is just simply that....simply normal light that we still see today!

How can you be agreeing with me if you go right back to your original position that the light that was brought forth is the same light that you see today when the sun and the moon were created on the 4th day? The light that is seen today is the light given off from the sun. It was not there when God said let there be light. You can’t have it both ways.




It dont have to be anything more than what it says it is...

You still need to figure out what it says.

[Saxon]

When you are up to bat so to speak, it should happen before you can even think of what you will do. It is a reactionary activity when you are in it for a time. Late 50's; you are still a spring chicken for a day or two yet.

[Saxon]

Quote me a single verse in the whole Bible that the Trinity is the way God is in his existence.

[Saxon]

Genesis 1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day. The Jews start the day at sundown . From sundown to sundown is still 24 hours.

Show me where you have a day that is not 24 hours. If you quote something like "the day of the Lord" or something that is not referring to an actual day as we know it then you will need to really have a good supporting story to show me how it fits with a day of creation type of day.

[Saxon]

If you have no concept of what "open 5 days a week" means and being close to 60, you need to get out more.

[alanmolstad]

Genesis 1:1 and 2 differs with you. Was the darkness upon the face of the deep dust of your dry world, or was it the deep water that the spirit of God moved upon? As you say, stick to the text.

J


Yes, look at Genesis 2, many parts of this part of Genesis happen before many parts of genesis 1......

[alanmolstad]

It rained for 40 days (24 hour period)

actually if you go read *** 38 you will see it is talking about the time with God laid the foundations of the earth,,,NT when the world was flooded and there was an ark....


Thats two different topics.!

[alanmolstad]

You show me where the text states that the day has never ended.

all I do is point out that as there is no ending listed, I dont add one....

Thats all I doing, Im not adding something to the bible that is not there,....






The YEC teachers are the ones that have to add something to the story...
They really need there to be an ending...they need it so much they will force it into the text no matter what.....


LOL


I just say, "If it dont say it, then I dont add it"...

[alanmolstad]

The Bible states that the sun and the moon were created on the 4th day, a fact you wish to ignore.




So the Bible literally says that the "sun " and the "moon" were created on the 4th day eh?


or is that your private interpretation of what it says?


LOL :)

[alanmolstad]

How can you be agreeing with me if you go right back to your original position that the light that was brought forth is the same light that you see today when the sun and the moon were created on the 4th day? The light that is seen today is the light given off from the sun. It was not there when God said let there be light. You can’t have it both ways.





.



What I teach my students is this...


The "light"talked about with the verse that says "Let there be light", that light is just the normal light of the sun we still see today.
This is not written to be tricky...
the light is just that.,,"Normal light:...

normal light from the normal sun...

Nothing changed...

the light Moses talked about came from the same sun that gives us our light today...the light has not changed at all over the years...its the same light!

[alanmolstad]

Evolution talks about a totally different "object" than the Bible.
Evolution and Genesis stand on different sides of the same room, looking at the same events in earth's history.


I dont expect them to use the same words to tell us what truth they find.....but I have learned that the truth of evolution fits within the genesis Text....!!!!

[alanmolstad]

You have no verse that teaches that the 7th day has not ended. I can point to the first 6 days that have clearly ended and the fact that God has resumed working and the fact that the 7th day is the model for the Sabbath, a 24 hour time period that is every 7th day. I am on a more solid footing than you with mere speculation and absolutely no scripture to help your speculative stand.
blah, blah, blah...
All I get out of that is,,,,you FAIL to list any verse that teaches the 7th day ended.

This means that you must admit I got a point.

6 days the writer makes a clear ending to each day...so clear you cant missit..
But the 7th day?......no ending.



Thats all Im saying.

Im saying only what I see in the text.....

I willl leave it up to the student that learns this as to what it might mean...


6 days have clear endings and the 7th has no ending.









case-closed.

[alanmolstad]

normal light from the normal sun...

!



This is the core difference I have with my ideas and the ideas of the YEC teachers.

They teach that the light was something else.

I teach that the light was just what it says it was...."light"










They actually will have all their ideas fall like a house of cards if one thing is true, and that one thing is that if the "light" is actually just normal light.
Thinkwhat a worry that must be for the YEc teachers!
Think how they must struggle all the time to make what the Bible says into something that is not written there???





Its so much more easy to just read, "Let there be light" and believe it as written.
I dont have any need at all to try to convince people that "Oh the light must be talking about something else!....It cant just be simply light!"







When Im teaching this part of Genesis to students of the bible, and we come to this verse where it says, "Let there be light" and the student asks me, "Whatis that?"
Its so much more easy to say, "Thats talking about light" rather than needing to find a tricky way to replace the word found there in the Bible with some other idea.

And its so much more easy to be able to point right out the window at something real when a student asks, "Where did this light come from?"

[Saxon]

Explain what you want me to see. I have no desire to play guessing games.

[Saxon]

I am referencing the cloud cover that that you see in *** 38. It disappeared during the Flood. I am not saying that *** 38 is not referring to the creation. It does and it refutes evolution. It supports and intelligent design of creation over a come by chance happening of evolution.

[Saxon]

That at***ude doesn't work with the trinity and it is equally useless with the 7th day supposedly never ending.

[Saxon]

Genesis 1:16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.

Genesis 1:17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,

Genesis 1:18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.

Genesis 1:19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.

If you can't see this as the sun and the moon being created then I would kindly suggest that you start some night cl***es and brush up on your reading and comprehension skills. It isn't needed to say "Sun and Moon" to be the sun and the moon. Are you being honest with yourself or just stubborn because you have to be so right all the time in spite of what the Bible states???

[Saxon]

There was no sun until the fourth day, therefore no normal light as we see it today. God said "let there be light" on the first day. You are seriously deluded about the light. you need to read the text!!

[Saxon]

Evolution comes up with a totally different plan than the Bible so you same room story is just that, a story, and a sorry one at that.

[Saxon]

You have no verse that teaches that the 7th day has not ended. I can point to the first 6 days that have clearly ended and the fact that God has resumed working and the fact that the 7th day is the model for the Sabbath, a 24 hour time period that is every 7th day. I am on a more solid footing than you with mere speculation and absolutely no scripture to help your speculative stand.

You say the case is closed but you have not responded to my comment that is scriptural and casts doubt on the 7th day still going on. You have no ability to answer??

[Saxon]

Try to address my comments on the light. I am getting tired of your mantra that you keep repeating.

[alanmolstad]

How could anyone suggest that the King of Kings has an ape in His ancestry?
The president of the USA was not summed to witness the new born King.
The United Nations did not send a official representative.

We read that the only people even informed that night of what was going on were shepherds.
Now Im sure there are lots of books filled with reasons why such people were told of the birth that night....and perhaps some of their ideas have merit.
I will just add that shepherds were about the only people around that night that would have been able to follow the rather foggy directions given by the Angel of the Lord....

I mean all the Angel said was "Hey go into Bethlehem and look for a manger"
Shepherds would know where Bethlehem's mangers were located.


So this King of Kings entered this world, and his very first smell was cattle urine and sheep ****.

So yes, I have no problem believing that God also designed us humans with the apes in mind, and with mice in mind, and with even fish and bacteria in mind....
They all are His creations, all called "good"........
The Son of God was not too pure that he was unable to pee and **** himself too.....to view him as being unable to do so makes him less than us...and thus his death meaningless.

But he did die.
Died a normal human death.
Same death I will die, same type of death Adam died
All these things, all of them are yet things that reflect the handiwork of the Creator,,,and his love for his creation.

[alanmolstad]

.......... I can point to the first 6 days that have clearly ended and the fact that God has resumed working

There is no ending listed to the 7th day in any verse in any translation of the Bible you can point to.

There simply is no ending to it ......none....zip!.......not even a hint that the 7th day has ended yet.

However, there is a very clear hint 'when" the 7th day is ended and the 8th day begins.

That hint is found at rev 21:1
Notice the clear reference to the book of Genesis.
"Heaven is listed, the earth is listed, and we learn about the sea too!
This is clearly pointing back to how Genesis starts with it's own reference to "Heavens", the "Earth" and "the waters"

The Bible does not clearly say that this marks the return to the work of the Genesis creation on the new 8th Day, but it does clearly hint that this is what it is talking about....


How many true Genesis creation days are left to be seen?......I have no real idea based on the text alone.
Could be many....

[Saxon]

Now you don't know the end from the beginning. Revelation 21:1 is NOT a reference to the creation of Genesis. New Heaven. New Earth. The first heaven and the first earth were p***ed away.

[alanmolstad]

Explain what you want me to see. .


Go outside today....

Look around, see that its light outside.

This is the same light of the "Let there be light" verse.
Very same light, it has not changed at all in the ages...

Want to see the source for the "Let there be light"?

Look up at the Earth's sun.....that is the same source.





l

If you were to come to this simple conclusion you would also come to the conclusion that all of the Young Earth Creation teachings are based on a total mis-reading of what the bible actually says.
You would come to see how silly the YEC teachers look to you now.
You would realize how the YEC have to struggle so hard to fight against the simple truth that the "light" talked about in Genesis is the very same light we see today.....



and this will lead you to state the simple elegant truth that "Nothing in Genesis disagrees with evolution"

[alanmolstad]

Now you don't know the end from the beginning. Revelation 21:1 is NOT a reference to the creation of Genesis.yes it is!

The writer of Revelation is pointing right back to the start of the book of Genesis when he makes use of the words "Heaven, Earth,and the sea"
This is a reference to the 1st day of the genesis week and the words, "In the beginning God created the HEAVENS and the EARTH....darkness across the face of the deep.......over the waters"

The connection between the Revelation verse and genesis is clear

[Saxon]

Go outside today....

Look around, see that its light outside.

This is the same light of the "Let there be light" verse.
Very same light, it has not changed at all in the ages...

Want to see the source for the "Let there be light"?

Look up at the Earth's sun.....that is the same source.

Genesis 1:1 states that in the beginning God created the heaven and the earth, and so he did. Genesis 1:2 starts to give the details of what God did and in what order he did it. In Genesis 1:3, God said let there be light. Genesis 1:5 says that this was done on the first day.

Genesis 1:14 to 18 tells us about God making the lights in the firmament which included the sun and the moon to reflect the light of the sun at night. Genesis 1:19 informs us that this was done on the 4th day.

Let there be light was the first day and the sun and the stars were created on the fourth day. If you believe the Bible, it is utterly impossible that when you go outside today that you are seeing the light from the statement, let there be light because the light that you see today comes from the sun that did not exist until the 4th day.

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Genesis 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
Genesis 1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
Genesis 1:4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
Genesis 1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

Genesis 1:14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
Genesis 1:15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
Genesis 1:16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
Genesis 1:17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,
Genesis 1:18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.
Genesis 1:19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.




If you were to come to this simple conclusion you would also come to the conclusion that all of the Young Earth Creation teachings are based on a total mis-reading of what the bible actually says.
You would come to see how silly the YEC teachers look to you now.
You would realize how the YEC have to struggle so hard to fight against the simple truth that the "light" talked about in Genesis is the very same light we see today.....

and this will lead you to state the simple elegant truth that "Nothing in Genesis disagrees with evolution"

If I were to come to your conclusion that would mean that I would have to deny what the Bible clearly states and I would be in the same ditch as you appear to be in.

Creation and evolution are not compatible. The word of God will be forever and the evolution theory will burn and vanish into the nothingness that it came from.

[Saxon]

The text indicates a NEW earth and a NEW heaven. What was created in Genesis is what is the old heaven and old earth. Read the text in its context, not in the false idea that creation and evolution are compatible.

[alanmolstad]

The text indicates a NEW earth and a NEW heaven. What was created in Genesis is what is the old heaven and old earth. .

thats what I was saying....


Now as I said, there is no clear announcement in the Bible that this would be the start of the 8th day of Genesis, but there is a clear hint that this is what we are talking about.

The writer points us back to Genesis...the connection is clear between revelation and Genesis at that point.
It also marks the return of the Lord to His work of creation.

This fact, and the strong connection to Genesis I believe do make a good case that the Revelation verse is hinting at it being the official ending of the 7th day of Rest, and the start of the new 8th day of the creation week.

[Saxon]

Show me your Bible reference for an 8th day of the creation week. I will remind you that a week is only 7 days. Now you are adding what isn't there. I guess that it is OK to do that if it seems to be to your benefit. A false idea is to no ones benefit.

[alanmolstad]

thats what I was saying....


Now as I said, there is no clear announcement in the Bible that this would be the start of the 8th day of Genesis, but there is a clear hint that this is what we are talking about.

.


Yes this is very true.
there is no teaching but there is a strong hint that this verse in rev is actually dealing with a new creative act, this would very much hint that we are watching the ending of the Lord's Genesis day 7 day of rest, and a return of the Lord to the work of creation.
The way the writer of the revelation verse is pointing directly back to day 1 of Genesis shows us that we are in fact likely dealing with yet another future day of Genesis not yet realized.

How many days would there be possible if this turns out to be true?...its unknown....
It would be interesting to see what the Lord would come up with if the creation week is extended for another 7 days?????

Very interesting.....

[disciple]

Yes this is very true.
there is no teaching but there is a strong hint that this verse in rev is actually dealing with a new creative act, this would very much hint that we are watching the ending of the Lord's Genesis day 7 day of rest, and a return of the Lord to the work of creation.
The way the writer of the revelation verse is pointing directly back to day 1 of Genesis shows us that we are in fact likely dealing with yet another future day of Genesis not yet realized.

How many days would there be possible if this turns out to be true?...its unknown....
It would be interesting to see what the Lord would come up with if the creation week is extended for another 7 days?????

Very interesting.....

Hi Alan,

Again I appreciate your enthusiasm for this discussion. I would like to say that it is interesting and entertaining to speculate about the mighty things the Lord could and might do in the future. But I don't think we need to speculate regarding the scripture we already have. The Scriptures pertaining to our discussion, were written, not to gratify curiosity, or make us astronomers, but to lead us to God, and make us saints. So when we read Gen. 1:16," And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also", I believe God's intent is for us to see that the two great lights are the sun and the moon. Now if anyone believes the sun and the moon were made at a different time than the 4th day, that's fine but to put a theory of sinful man next to the awesome creation of a Holy God and say they are compatible is wrong in my opinion.

[alanmolstad]

Hi Alan,

Again I appreciate your enthusiasm for this discussion. I would like to say that it is interesting and entertaining to speculate about the mighty things the Lord could and might do in the future. But I don't think we need to speculate regarding the scripture we already have. The Scriptures pertaining to our discussion, were written, not to gratify curiosity, or make us astronomers, but to lead us to God, and make us saints. So when we read Gen. 1:16," And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also", I believe God's intent is for us to see that the two great lights are the sun and the moon. Now if anyone believes the sun and the moon were made at a different time than the 4th day, that's fine but to put a theory of sinful man next to the awesome creation of a Holy God and say they are compatible is wrong in my opinion.

Did you get a chance to visit the Geneva Bible site I listed to see if I was right about added words on day 4?

[disciple]

Did you get a chance to visit the Geneva Bible site I listed to see if I was right about added words on day 4?

Yes and here is what it says,
1:16 And God made two great {n} lights; the greater light to {o} rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: [he made] the stars also.

(n) That is, the sun and the moon, and here he speaks as man judges by his eye: for else the moon is less than the planet Saturn.
(o) To give it sufficient light, as instruments appointed for the same, to serve man's purposes.

The words are added for clarity, taking them away doesn't change the meaning.

[alanmolstad]

Yes and here is what it says,
....... [he made] ...........



Are you familiar with what it means when words appear in brackets then in your bible?




Are you familiar with what it means when words appear in brackets then in your bible?

My Point?

My point is that you made the suggestion that because you found a Bible translation that was older than the King James I quoted and with your older version of bible you tried to put forward the idea that the words "he made" were in the text, and not just something added by men later as I claimed..

Now it is true that the version you relied on had simply had the words "he made" appearing without the brackets found in the better King James, and I can understand that this might get a bible student a bit mixed up.

at first glance a person might get the idea that the lack of brackets in your older translation might well prove that the words were not added as I claim...


However....I believe I have debunked that idea...






understand I want to be challenged.
I want you to believe at the beginning that the Bible does not appear as I claim.

That way you will be inspired to seek out things like that copy of the Geneva bible in an effort to challenge my teachings on Genesis.
what better way to prove to you that the words were added, than to have you find out that all the arguments you had against that idea simply never pan out?

You see, while your use of the Geneva Bible to attack my claim that "He made' was added was new to me..., the fact is that I have had about every bible you can name tossed at me by people that after a quick glance in their bible might have seen that it did not have any brackets, and that was all the farther that needed to look.

they would toss that bible version in front of my nose and say, "Look at this translation, it does not have any brackets, so that shows that its not added like you said"


But they always get a bit stumped later when I show them out of a better version of their Bible that actually shows the added words in brackets, and that Im right again!....the words were added.



So I want to be challenged, and I have been challenged over the last 20 or 30 years by people that in the beginning were always so sure that the YEC teachings were correct..But then when they trusted the YEC teachings and tried to use them to challenge me they find that YEC teachings lack support in the Bible.


Soyes, I want you to keep challenging me,
keep seeking any errors in anything I have ever said on this or any topic!
keep looking for a verse that disagrees with what im saying about genesis...

Thats the best way to get you to finally see that- "Alan always knows what he is talking about, and everything he says he can point to a verse to support."

[Saxon]

Do you have any idea why the "added in words" were added in?

[alanmolstad]

Do you have any idea why the "added in words" were added in?


http://www.reasons.org/articles/does-old-earth-creationism-contradict-genesis-1-2


check out the section ***led "The Universe"

about the 3rd paragraph down from there you see a guy's name listed - "Gleason Archer, one of the foremost evangelical Hebrew scholars"




the footnote takes you to the listed source '"Gleason L. Archer, Encyclopedia of Bible Difficulties (Grand Rapids, Zondervan, 1982), 61."







I would say that this would be a good place to begin looking for your answer....from a known and respected writer.

[Saxon]

Do you have any idea why the "added in words" were added in? I am looking for your answer. If I wanted someone else's answer I would have asked them.

[disciple]

Are you familiar with what it means when words appear in brackets then in your bible?





My Point?

My point is that you made the suggestion that because you found a Bible translation that was older than the King James I quoted and with your older version of bible you tried to put forward the idea that the words "he made" were in the text, and not just something added by men later as I claimed..

Now it is true that the version you relied on had simply had the words "he made" appearing without the brackets found in the better King James, and I can understand that this might get a bible student a bit mixed up.

at first glance a person might get the idea that the lack of brackets in your older translation might well prove that the words were not added as I claim...


However....I believe I have debunked that idea...



Thats the best way to get you to finally see that- "Alan always knows what he is talking about, and everything he says he can point to a verse to support."

Hi Alan,
No, my intention was to point out that words added for clarity are not a conspiracy by Ken Ham and his followers.
Anyone who has ever translated from one language to another knows that words must be added to the finished work to complete the sentence structure of the new language. All translators do this when translating the Bible. The King James translators were men of integrity so they put the added words in italics.
Psalm 23:1 reads "The LORD is my shepherd" in the King James Bible. The word "is" was added by the translators to complete the sense of the sentence.
The meaning isn't changed just as the meaning in Gen. 1:16 isn't changed.

[disciple]

Thats the best way to get you to finally see that- "Alan always knows what he is talking about, and everything he says he can point to a verse to support."

Please point to a verse that supports the theory that men evolved from apes.

[alanmolstad]

The text of the Bible works within the teachings of science.
The two different works look at history from different points of view but also work with each other to help understand early earth history

[alanmolstad]

Science and Genesis trace life back to the same source...just like when we die we "return" to the place we came from.

[alanmolstad]

I have already listed the verse that shows both humans and animal life come from the same place....

[alanmolstad]

When I get on my computer tonight I will list for you the post where I show you all this stuff

I believe I also answer this same question when I posted a conversation I have with people

[disciple]

I have already listed the verse that shows both humans and animal life come from the same place....

Yes, but that's not evolution. Just because God made humans and animals from the same elements or dust of the earth, it doesn't mean one evolved from the other.

[alanmolstad]

Have I ever said that Genesis taught evolution? ....

No...so.what have I said over and over?

[alanmolstad]

The source is the same. ...trace back life to the source in both and you end up at the same place




In other words I'm right again

[disciple]

The source is the same. ...trace back life to the source in both and you end up at the same place




In other words I'm right again

Ok Alan, so how about a straight answer. Do you believe humans evolved from apes or not?

[alanmolstad]

Dust....the ground of this earth.
That is the source for both animal and human life...in both Evolution as well as the Genesis story..

That is what I can prove. ..so that is what I believe. ..that is what I teach..

Everything I say is always backed up with the holy scriptures.
When I tell you that the first thing the bible listed as created by God as the heavens and so this tells us the source for all the "lights" talked about in Genesis. ..You can trust I can point to a verse that teaches this..


Alan does not make this stuff up.

When I say that the bible does not say the sun was made on the 4th day ...I can back that up with the Text!

WHEN....wwhen I say that genesis teaches animal and human life came from the same source. ..I can back that up with a verse of the bible!

[alanmolstad]

see guys, when I post stuff like that above , stuff that is clearly and totally in full disagreement with the teachings of Young Earth Creationism, you should demand I post a verse that proves my teachings!

When I say that the first thing the Bible states that god created was the "heavens" Im either right or Im totally wrong.

If Im wrong about this then Young earth creationism is correct and you should not listen to me any more.



In the same way, When I say that the Bible does not say the "Sun" was made on the 4th day, either Im right or Im wrong.

If Im wrong?...then YEC is totally correct and all of science and all of modern thought on how the universe is running is in error and you should not listen to me any more.


If I say that the Bible does indeed trace back all animals and all humans to a single common source just as taught in Evolution, Im right or Im wrong.

Which is it?


When I say that the darkness of Genesis is talked about in the book of *** and the reason for it is revealed, Im right or Im wrong...
There is no wiggle room here....

I state these things as being black and white in the scriptures.

Im not allowing myself a backdoor to sneak out of being caught telling a falsehood.

Either Im right and always have been, or Im wrong and I have been wrong from the start.


If I have said one word that I cant back up with a verse out of the Bible, that I have lied, for I have said over and over that I will only post things here that I know are true and I know I can supply a verse to support.
If I cant do that then Im wrong...

When I tell you that the words "he made" are an addition to the Bible , Im right or Im wrong.
If you can find proof that they are not an addition?....then Im wrong, dont listen to me any more.



But If you think Im right?......then that means that all of the Young Earth Creationism teachings are a lie.......

[Saxon]

He doesn't give straight answers often.

[Saxon]

That is the point, the Bible does not teach evolution, therefor evolution is not biblical. you are following a pipe dream.

[alanmolstad]

Ask me to back up anything I have said.....that's all you have to do.

If I have said even one thing that can't find support in the bible?...then don't listen to me.

But if you never ask me to post a verse to support a view you simply disagree with?......I got to believe you know I have a verse ready to go...

[Saxon]

Evolution.

[alanmolstad]

Evolution.
I'm not sure if you think you are being clever or what?

But I will just point out to all reading this that no one seems to dare ask me to back up anything I have said the bible teaches....

I believe the reason is that people are starting to catch on.....ALAN CAN BACK EVERYTHING HE SAYS!!!!!



It must be a bit frustrating for some to find that the bible simple does not teach YEC like they were always told it did....

[Saxon]

There is no verses in the Bible that supports evolution. If there is show it to me and back it up.

[alanmolstad]

There is no verses in the Bible that supports evolution. If there is show it to me and back it up.as I have said, the teachings of Genesis work within the teachings of evolution,in that within both teachings we see that all is traced back to the very same starting point...the same source in finally arrived at within both teachings.


God did not simply "pop" life into being....
God did not wave a magic stick and "Shazam!"...life was all over fully formed.

Rather the Bible tells us very clearly that God commanded "The Earth" to bring forth life.....

( see Genesis 1:24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature")


The EARTH.......THE EARTH brought forth life!!!!!!

and in The Bible tells us that when we die we RETURN to the earth.
Not just "go to the earth"....But God was very clear when he told us that when we die we "RETURN" to the earth.
For the earth is our final source.
That is where we are from.

(see Genesis 3:19 until you return to the ground,since from it you were taken")


this is why when we die we are not said to "return to nothingness"...
And that is key to understand for a lot of people trapped in YEC teachings dont have a clue about what the Bible actually says we are from.

They keep telling me, "But Alan, man was made in the image of God", and that we are not from the same common source as all the animals (like the great apes)

But the Bible tells us we are just the same as the great apes , and the other animals, in that both humans and the animals stem from the same single common source.



This is as we can understand what Evolution teaches as well.




So while the Bible does not teach evolution, you do see how the two teachings do walk hand in hand to offer the student a very well-rounded understanding of early earth history...









How about the evolution of stars?
Does the story in genesis fit within what science teaches about the evolution of stars?



Now many YEC teaches believe that god created the light from stars in a different way that science teaches...
They say that god created the light 'in transit"....

This is how they get out of the painted corner of there being light coming from stars millions of light years away.
....

I believe all that YEC **** about light created "in transit" is a lie.


I believe the light we see fits within the teachings of science and genesis just fine, and that there is no need to make the light 'magic' just to understand how it got here from millions of years ago.

This is because I have God creating the stars like our own sun right at the start of the story.
this means I dont need a fancy 'source-less' light that has conveniently disappeared ....

My source of light is the same sun we see today.

Nothing is magic
nothing needs to rely on magic....









So it comes down to this:
The YEC teachers believe that the first thing God created was "light"
I believe the first thing the Bible tells us god created was the "Heavens"

Who is right?

[Saxon]

as I have said, the teachings of Genesis work within the teachings of evolution,in that within both teachings we see that all is traced back to the very same starting point...the same source in finally arrived at within both teachings.

You have said that, but you have not shown that evolution is compatible with the creation text.




God did not simply "pop" life into being....
God did not wave a magic stick and "Shazam!"...life was all over fully formed.

ather the Bible tells us very clearly that God commanded "The Earth" to bring forth life.....


The EARTH.......THE EARTH brought forth life!!!!!!

You are totally wrong. God did “pop" life into being. Genesis 1:21 states that God created whales, and every living creature; not a single cell creature. Genesis 1:25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and everything that creeps upon the earth after his kind. Genesis 1:27 states God created man in his own image. There is nowhere in the text that even suggests that God did not “pop” life into being. Read the text, God created everything as it now is by intelligent design, not some primeval soup that everything slithered out of by chance as evolution would have you believe.

The earth brought forth life as the living plants and creatures multiplied after their own kind.

Genesis 1:20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.
Genesis 1:21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
Genesis 1:22 And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth.
Genesis 1:23 And the evening and the morning were the fifth day.
Genesis 1:24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.
Genesis 1:25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
Genesis 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
Genesis 1:28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.




this is why when we die we are not said to "return to nothingness"...
And that is key to understand for a lot of people trappedin YEC teachings dont have a clue about what the Bible actually says we are from.

They keep telling me, "But Alan, man was made in the image of God", and that we are not from the same common source as all the animals (like the great apes)

But the Bible tells us we are just the same as the great apes , and the other animals, in that both humans and the animals stem from the same single common source.

We are all from the common source; God. God is the architect that designed and made everything that is the earth and upon the earth, not to forget the entire universe. The text clearly states that God created each plant and creature as it is. Show me otherwise from Genesis 1:20 to 28.




This is as we can understand what Evolution teaches as well.

Evolution teaches a come-by-chance appearance of everything and nothing of God.




So while the Bible does not teach evolution, you do see how the two teachings do walk hand in hand to offer the student a very well-rounded understanding of early earth history...

The two teachings are polar opposites and do not walk hand in hand in any way, shape or form. The only statement that you have correct is that the Bible does not teach evolution. Evolution does not teach Bible either.

[alanmolstad]

You are totally wrong. God did “pop" life into being.





nope Im not wrong at all...

...man was "formed"...

we are not in the original state,
we did not 'pop" into being, but rather we are a process.

(see Genesis 2 :7 "Then the Lord God formed a man from the dust of the ground"

I believe even the word "Adam" is related to the word "ground' in the Bible...that means that we are actually named after what we truly are...."the ground of this earth!"





So Mankind is not just something that popped into being but rather we see in the Text that we are the result of God's careful handiwork.


But what about the animals?
If I am correct in teaching that God "formed" the man and that this word 'formed" tells us that we are the result of careful handiwork and a process, and if Im correct that we share this fact with the animals kingdom too, then I should be able to prove that animals also are spoken of in the Bible to be also be the result of a process....also the result of being "formed' and not simply the result of a magic wand being waved and 'pop" there was a deer.....LOL


and low and behold there is a verse that talks about how animals came to be on the earth!
...Genesis 2:19 " Now the Lord God had formed out of the ground all the wild animals"










the YEC teachers would have us believe that God created life out of "nothingness"

I teach that God used what was, and changed it to be what he had in his designs.
God used raw materials to build his vision of life.



Now evolution is centered around the idea of "change"
One thing becomes another.
and in the bible we see this talked about as well.

[disciple]

Ok Alan, so how about a straight answer. Do you believe humans evolved from apes or not?

Sound of crickets....
Jeopardy theme music...
Loud sighs...
ticking clock sounds...:)

[alanmolstad]

See post 249

[disciple]

See post 249

Post 249 does not answer my question and as I don't wish to be at odds with you, if you don't wish to answer yes or no I will drop it.

[alanmolstad]

I teach what I believe
I believe what I can prove.

You can read any of my posts and clearly see that I teach that YEC is a lie.
I teach ideas that are totally against YEC.
I ideas that I can support with the bible.

I find that no one that tries to argue against me will rely on the bible for support.

I also find when they face the fact that I can defend all of my posts with the bible that it is then tthat any frustrated YEC believers will try to make this "personal"

They may try to change the topic away from what the Bible says and more about what I'm about...

I don't play tthat game.

Ask me for a verse to support my teachings......



the YEC teacher says LIGHT was the first thing created. ...II say it's the heavens. .....who is right?