Picture Proof:Satanic pentagrams on German church

[Mesenja]

Here is the accusation made against us by the evangelical fundamentalist minority. Inverted pentagrams on the Salt Lake City Temple appear identical to the ones found on Anton LaVey's Satanic Bible. Mormon Temple symbols therefore are sacred--but only to the horned god of witchcraft and those who follow him!





A very pleasant young lady greeted my wife and I at the visitors center. She ushered us into a room and showed us photographs of the various "sacred" rooms within the temple. As she answered our questions regarding Mormon doctrine,she was very careful to represent her beliefs in an orthodox Christian fashion.

It was not until I reminded her of the Mormon "plurality-of-gods doctrine" and her eventual status as a goddess that she realized she had been caught in a lie. I could only shudder at the thought of how many uninformed Christians have actually believed her.

I then asked her to explain the symbols that are emblazoned on the exterior granite-like (actually sandstone) walls of the[Salt Lake City] temple. She told us that "earth stones" and "sun stones" are important celestial and sacred symbols. But when I pointed to the inverted pentagrams and asked her to explain why they appear identical to the ones found on Anton LaVey's Satanic Bible,our ability to communicate with each other rapidly deteriorated.

The young lady just turned and walked away,leaving us only with the words,"Now I know where you are coming from!" It was fascinating to see just how swiftly darkness will disappear in the presence of light! The young lady was right about one thing,however. Mormon Temple symbols are sacred--but only to the horned god of witchcraft and those who follow him! [JOSEPH'S CIRCLE OF DEATH (http:///www.luciferlink.org/mcircle.htm) by Larry Hall]


http://www.nauvootemple.com/g/20010630_4s.jpg


http://www.prophezine.com/Portals/0/article_images/Mormon pentagram.jpg




However these very same satanic pentagrams are also found on the Evangelische-Lutheran Pfarramt Marktkirch in Hannover,Germany.


http:///psychochemiker.files.wordpress.com/2009/08/star2.jpg

[Father_JD]

Huh?

Btw...you're link isn't working.

See my exposure of bad, wishful Mormon thinking on your Nag Hamadi thread...

[Russ]

Like so many of your posts and so many of other Mormons on this board, I'll just comment upon something unrelated.

Your tagline: "Abba Xanthus said, "A dog is better than I am, For he has love and does not judge."

Think about that in relation to the unworthy father of the groom who is not allowed to attend the wedding.

[Father_JD]

Like so many of your posts and so many of other Mormons on this board, I'll just comment upon something unrelated.

Your tagline: "Abba Xanthus said, "A dog is better than I am, For he has love and does not judge."

Think about that in relation to the unworthy father of the groom who is not allowed to attend the wedding.


The perrenial question for Mormons is:

Are you good enough...NOW??

Can't find the German church with pentagrams...Of course, the M-dude is trying to equivocate from the pentagrams on the LDS temple. :rolleyes:

[Russ]

The perrenial question for Mormons is:

Are you good enough...NOW??

Not one Mormon I've ever met, whether in person, on the Internet, in Mormon chapels, etc., has ever told me that he knows he is celestial bound. Not one.

I see what you mean.

I've been asking for years, "Are you good enough? Yet?"

Not one has told me that he has done enough.


Can't find the German church with pentagrams...Of course, the M-dude is trying to equivocate from the pentagrams on the LDS temple. :rolleyes:

Hey, that reminds me. Have you seen Jim Spencer's site on the LDS temple symbols?

http://www.mazeministry.com/mormonism/whited/eastweb/index.htm

As you might already know, Jim is in Boise ...if you get a chance.

[Mesenja]

The perrenial question for Mormons is:Are you good enough...NOW??

Can't find the German church with pentagrams...Of course,the Mesenja-dude is trying to equivocate from the pentagrams on the LDS temple. :rolleyes:



The church is called the Evangelische-Lutheran Pfarramt Marktkirche. The following is a link to a video that clearly shows they have the very same inverted pentagrams that is on the Salt Lake City Temple. As this is a satanic symbol found on the front cover of Anton LaVey's Satanic Bible it is proof positive that they also worship the horned god of witchcraft.


die Marktkirche in Hannover (http:///www.youtube.com/watch?v=yIimYfclxl0)

[shoedog]

The church is called the Evangelische-Lutheran Pfarramt Marktkirche. The following is a link to a video that clearly shows they have the very same inverted pentagrams that is on the Salt Lake City Temple. As this is a satanic symbol found on the front cover of Anton LaVey's Satanic Bible it is proof positive that they also worship the horned god of witchcraft.


die Marktkirche in Hannover (http:///www.youtube.com/watch?v=yIimYfclxl0)

Why does the LDS Mormon temple have inverted pentagrams, moonstones, and such? (masonry?)

Do the Germans have similar influences?

BTW, the video link didn't work for me

Thanks, shoe :)

[Russ]

The church is called the Evangelische-Lutheran Pfarramt Marktkirche. The following is a link to a video that clearly shows they have the very same inverted pentagrams that is on the Salt Lake City Temple. As this is a satanic symbol found on the front cover of Anton LaVey's Satanic Bible it is proof positive that they also worship the horned god of witchcraft.


die Marktkirche in Hannover (http:///www.youtube.com/watch?v=yIimYfclxl0)

But there's much more than just inverted pentagrams. The LDS "church" has sunstones, moonstones, an all-seeing eye, saturn stones, etc.

Go ahead and give a description of the symbolism.

Perty please?

The inverted pentagrams in LDSism are found all over Salt Lake, e.g. the "gate" and the history museum. Care to take me on a comprehensive tour as to the meanings?

[Mesenja]

I am so glad you asked Shoedog. According to the Christian watchdog group Sword of the Spirit Apologetics (http://www.luciferlink.org/INDEX2.htm)"The inverted pentagram is the consummate symbol of Satan. "




Why does the LDS Mormon temple have inverted pentagrams,moonstones,and such? (Masonry?) Do the Germans have similar influences?

Thanks,Shoedog :)



According to these renowned experts it is the official symbol of the Church of Satan that is universally known for its sinister and evil influence.




The inverted pentagram is the consummate symbol of Satan. It is the official symbol of the Church of Satan. Universally known for its sinister and evil influence,it is also known as the Goat of Mendez."

In witchcraft the inverted pentacle depicts the Devil's Goat and the Witches Foot. It is ultimately the symbol of the star Sirius (from the Greek word "scorching") or "dog star." It is known by the Egyptians as Set (or Satan). Identified by the Masonic Lodge as the "Blazing Star," it is found at the center of every Masonic Lodge and is the official emblem of the Order of the Eastern Star.

The inverted pentagram is the second most common symbol used in Mormon architecture,being extensively used in exterior keystones. [THE INVERTED PENTAGRAM (http://www.luciferlink.org/mglpent.htm),Copyright 2001 by Sword of the Spirit Apologetics.]


As you can clearly see in the this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yIimYfclxl0) but less so in the blurred picture what is the shocking truth now revealed for all to see. These very same satanic pentagrams are also found on the Evangelische-Lutheran Pfarramt Marktkirch in Hannover,Germany.


http:///psychochemiker.files.wordpress.com/2009/08/star2.jpg

[Russ]

The symbols on the LDS temples even irk some Mormons. They don't like their perceived Christian faith being aligned with symbols so commonly recognized as pagan, astrological and/or Satanic.

It's interesting to note that the LDS church shuns the cross of Christ. It's not found on your churches, nor your temples and is discouraged from being displayed.

[Mesenja]

The Jews are also under the obvious spell and the evil influence of the Goat of Mendez. They blatantly put this satanic symbol on their national flag.



http://www.topnews.in/files/israel-Flag.jpg

[Russ]

http://www.topnews.in/files/israel-Flag.jpg

The star of David is not a pentagram.

Now you're just being ridiculous.

May I have a tour of the symbolism of the LDS church? Sunstones and moonstones and such. The all-seeing eye, etc. The secret handshakes.

[James Banta]

But there's much more than just inverted pentagrams. The LDS "church" has sunstones, moonstones, an all-seeing eye, saturn stones, etc.

Go ahead and give a description of the symbolism.

Perty please?

The inverted pentagrams in LDSism are found all over Salt Lake, e.g. the "gate" and the history museum. Care to take me on a comprehensive tour as to the meanings?

Look at it close Russ.. It doesn't look like it is installed to me at all.. It could be installed with the point up.. To many, that is a Christian symbol. It doesn't become satanic unless used in the inverted position.. Sort of like an upside down cross.. This is poor evidence that this window was installed upside down... This window looks like it is stilling on a table.. This is NOT true on the Salt Lake Temple.. Their satanic symbols are chiseled in stone..
http://www.ldschurchtemples.com/saltlake/gallery/images/salt_lake_lds_mormon_temple49.jpg

IHS jim

[theway]

The symbols on the LDS temples even irk some Mormons. They don't like their perceived Christian faith being aligned with symbols so commonly recognized as pagan, astrological and/or Satanic.

It's interesting to note that the LDS church shuns the cross of Christ. It's not found on your churches, nor your temples and is discouraged from being displayed.Commonly recognized as pagan??? Satanic??? you really are naive aren't you.
The pentagon has always been a Christian symbol representing Christ and his five wounds. It is all over Gothic churches.
It only became a pagan symbol less than a hundred years ago.
You need to get out more, maybe read a book or two.

[shoedog]

I am so glad you asked Shoedog. According to the Christian watchdog group Sword of the Spirit Apologetics (http://www.luciferlink.org/INDEX2.htm)"The inverted pentagram is the consummate symbol of Satan. "



According to these renowned experts it is the official symbol of the Church of Satan that is universally known for its sinister and evil influence.



As you can clearly see both in the this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yIimYfclxl0) and picture the shocking truth is revealed for all to see. These very same satanic pentagrams are also found on the Evangelische-Lutheran Pfarramt Marktkirch in Hannover,Germany.


http:///psychochemiker.files.wordpress.com/2009/08/star2.jpg

So, what are satanic and pagan symbols doing on LDS Mormon temples? WHat are the age differences of the German church and LDS temple? The temple is relatively young, no? thanks, shoe :)

[MacG]

Here is the accusation made against us by the evangelical fundamentalist minority. Inverted pentagrams on the Salt Lake City Temple appear identical to the ones found on Anton LaVey's Satanic Bible. Mormon Temple symbols therefore are sacred--but only to the horned god of witchcraft and those who follow him!




However these very same satanic pentagrams are also found on the Evangelische-Lutheran Pfarramt Marktkirch in Hannover,Germany.


http:///psychochemiker.files.wordpress.com/2009/08/star2.jpg

I am willing to say that the inverted pentagram is not satanic given the historic use in Christianity and it's recent use in paganism etc.

If one were to take away the pentagram off of both that church and a Mormon temple (a "common" denominator as it were), how would symbologists cl***ify each structure based on the remaining symbols?

From a Layman's POV take away the pentagram from the church and it would be clear to me that Christian people worship there based on the remaining symbols. Take away the pentagram from the Mormon Temple and what remaining symbols would tell me that Christian people worship there?

Blessings,

MacG

[Mesenja]

The Jews are also under the obvious spell and the evil influence of the Goat of Mendez. They blatantly put this satanic symbol on their national flag.



http://www.topnews.in/files/israel-Flag.jpg







1. The hexagram was engraved on the seal or ring of Solomon,mentioned in the Talmud (Git.68a-b) as a sign of his dominion over the demons instead of the name of God,which originally appeared.

2. The hexagram and pentagram were easily interchangeable predominately in magical texts and the name was applied to both figures.

3. In Arabic magic the “seal of Solomon” was widely used under the designation “seal of Solomon.” .

4. A hexagram must be present to call forth a demon and sorcerers consider it a very powerful tool to invoke Satan.”

[Mesenja]

So,what are satanic and pagan symbols doing on LDS Mormon temples? What are the age differences of the German church and LDS temple? The temple is relatively young, no? thanks,Shoedog :)




Will you be able to finally admit that this symbol is sacred--but only to the horned god of witchcraft and those who follow him? According to the evangelical cult apologetics experts it is beyond dispute that the upside-down star (pentagram) depicted most prominently on the Salt Lake Temple can only have one meaning attached to it. But this is not all Shoedog as this “pagan” or even “satanic” symbol was mockingly used as a symbol for Christ! An example of this blasphemy is the icon of the Transfiguration by Andrei Rublev (1405),now located in the Moscow Annunciation Cathedral.



http://www.heavenlyascents.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/transfiguration_icon_andrew_rublyov_01.JPG


Icon of the Transfiguration by Andrei Rublev (1405),now located in the Moscow Annunciation Cathedral

[James Banta]

1. The hexagram was engraved on the seal or ring of Solomon,mentioned in the Talmud (Git.68a-b) as a sign of his dominion over the demons instead of the name of God,which originally appeared.

2. The hexagram and pentagram were easily interchangeable predominately in magical texts and the name was applied to both figures.

3. In Arabic magic the “seal of Solomon” was widely used under the designation “seal of Solomon.” .

4. A hexagram must be present to call forth a demon and sorcerers consider it a very powerful tool to invoke Satan.”


Is this why mormonism has incorporated the Hexagram in their own architecture? Yes Satanism has taken both the hexagram and the pentagram as symbols of sin.. These were symbols of faith when they were first used by men.. The hexagram is an overlay of the name David.. Written in Hebrew and overlayed the form is remarkably similar to the Star of David.. The pentagram was first used in the Church to bring to Mind the five wounds of Jesus. Twisting the meaning of these symbols they have been made to equal evil.. I won't use them at all.. I will use ONLY the cross as a symbol of my faith.. IHS jim

[Mesenja]

Twisting the meaning of these symbols they have been made to equal evil. I won't use them at all. I will use ONLY the cross as a symbol of my faith. IHS Jim



Are you saying that the allegation by those in the evangelical counter cult ministries that the inverted five-pointed stars that decorate some LDS temples are occultic or even Satanic in nature is twisting the truth?

Here is what you said to Russ. You made the claim that the symbol does not become satanic unless used in the inverted position.




Look at it close Russ.. It doesn't become satanic unless used in the inverted position.. Sort of like an upside down cross. This is NOT true on the Salt Lake Temple.. Their satanic symbols are chiseled in stone. IHS Jim




Why then is the inverted pentagram found both in the Congressional Medal of Honor and on the Great Star Flag of the United States (used from 1837 to 1845)?


http://freepages.military.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~worldwarone/WWI/Medals/images/TheCongressionalMedalOfHonor.jpg



http://www.crwflags.com/FOTW/images/u/us-31gs.gif



Also in Sir John Gardner Wilkinson book en***led Wilkinson's Egyptians he shows that the cross was originally a pagan symbol and it existed centuries before Christianity. Is there any reason why you are using pagan symbols?


http://www.sabbathcovenant.com/doctrine/egyptians-cross.jpg

[nrajeff]

Hey, everybody, get yer torches and pitchforks---it's time to tear down the biggest user of Satanic symbols--The Boy Scouts of America!

http://wikicompany.org/wiki/images/thumb/Boy_Scouts.jpg/107px-Boy_Scouts.jpg


And check out the flag of the Order of New Templars, a secret society in Austria founded by Lanz von Liebenfels.

http://wikicompany.org/wiki/images/thumb/New_templars.gif/120px-New_templars.gif


It uses the CROSS and the SWASTIKA. "Proving" that any church that uses the sign of the cross, is secretly a Nazi cult...according to extremist Evangelical reasoning. Right?

[MacG]

It uses the CROSS and the SWASTIKA. "Proving" that any church that uses the sign of the cross, is secretly a Nazi cult...according to extremist Evangelical reasoning. Right?

Nah, just Hindu - unless they are Nazi's? ;)


Hey, I replied to M's original post but it appears to be too far down for anyone to notice. So this is knid of a bump.

Thanks for your replies,

MacG

[shoedog]

Will you be able to finally admit that this symbol is sacred--but only to the horned god of witchcraft and those who follow him? According to the evangelical cult apologetics experts it is beyond dispute that the upside-down star (pentagram) depicted most prominently on the Salt Lake Temple can only have one meaning attached to it. But this is not all Shoedog as this “pagan” or even “satanic” symbol was mockingly used as a symbol for Christ! An example of this blasphemy is the icon of the Transfiguration by Andrei Rublev (1405),now located in the Moscow Annunciation Cathedral.

Oh, I don't know. It's at least 450 years older than LDS Momron temples. My guess satan saw a good thing and as usual perverted it and LDS Mormons saw the value of it on their temples? Heck, I don't know. shoe :)

[James Banta]

[Mesenja;45110]Are you saying that the allegation by those in the evangelical counter cult ministries that the inverted five-pointed stars that decorate some LDS temples are occultic or even Satanic in nature is twisting the truth?

That isn't what I said.. I said that the meaning of those symbols was twisted by evil to be their symbols.. Ans as I said to be clear I will use the Cross!..


Here is what you said to Russ. You made the claim that the symbol does not become satanic unless used in the inverted position.

Yes they didn't want to use it as a symbol of faith so they twist it to their own purposes..


Why then is the inverted pentagram found both in the Congressional Medal of Honor and on the Great Star Flag of the United States (used from 1837 to 1845)?

You believe that Christian designed this medal or were those designers maybe masons?


Also in Sir John Gardner Wilkinson book en***led Wilkinson's Egyptians he shows that the cross was originally a pagan symbol and it existed centuries before Christianity. Is there any reason why you are using pagan symbols?

I told you how the Hexagram came into use by Israel.. I also explained how the 5 pointed star was a symbol of the wounds of Jesus.. How others used it before that to me is not an issue.. IHS jim

[Father_JD]

The church is called the Evangelische-Lutheran Pfarramt Marktkirche. The following is a link to a video that clearly shows they have the very same inverted pentagrams that is on the Salt Lake City Temple. As this is a satanic symbol found on the front cover of Anton LaVey's Satanic Bible it is proof positive that they also worship the horned god of witchcraft.


die Marktkirche in Hannover (http:///www.youtube.com/watch?v=yIimYfclxl0)

Sorry, M-dude. The link doesn't work. What the REAL question is:

1. What were the MOTIVES as to WHY it's on Mormon temples, and the clear Mormon connection to FREEMASONRY?
2. What were the MOTIVES as to WHY it should be on a Lutheran Church?

It's EQUIVOCATION regardless which you're about. :rolleyes:

[Mesenja]

Nah,just Hindu-unless they are Nazi's? ;)


Hey, I replied to Mesenja's original post but it appears to be too far down for anyone to notice. So this is kniind of a bump.

Thanks for your replies,

MacG



Let me just say that I am as serious about this subject as NRAJeff is. ;)

[Mesenja]

Sorry,Mesenja-dude. The link doesn't work. What the REAL question is:

1. What were the MOTIVES as to WHY it's on Mormon temples,and the clear Mormon connection to FREEMASONRY?

2. What were the MOTIVES as to WHY it should be on a Lutheran Church?

It's EQUIVOCATION regardless which you're about. :rolleyes:

However I am not the one that is guilty of this fallacy. I would think that by now you would see this double standard at work. By the way the link works just fine for me. Here is the URL. There should be no excuses now as to why you can't watch this video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yIimYfclxl0

[Mesenja]

Oh,I don't know. It's at least 450 years older than LDS Momron temples. My guess [is that]Satan saw a good thing and as usual perverted it and LDS Mormons saw the value of it on their temples? Heck,I don't know. Shoedog :)



Definition:The informal fallacy of special pleading is committed whenever an argument includes some double standard.

[MacG]

Let me just say that I am as serious about this subject as NRAJeff is. ;)

You read this post (http://www.waltermartin.com//forums/showthread.php?p=45087#poststop) ?

MacG

[Mesenja]

I am willing to say that the inverted pentagram is not satanic given the historic use in Christianity and it's recent use in paganism etc.

If one were to take away the pentagram off of both that church and a Mormon temple (a "common" denominator as it were),how would symbologists cl***ify each structure based on the remaining symbols?

From a layman's point of view take away the pentagram from the church and it would be clear to me that Christian people worship there based on the remaining symbols. Take away the pentagram from the Mormon Temple and what remaining symbols would tell me that Christian people worship there?

Blessings,MacG




The meaning of symbols can only be defined by the person or group using it. This entire accusation that the inverted five-pointed stars or pentagrams that decorate some LDS temples are occultic or even Satanic in nature is nonsense. It is a Christian symbol. The Savior called Himself “the bright…morning star” (Revelation 22:16) which is the planet Venus.

If you plot the exact position of Venus where it first appears shortly before sunrise after a period of invisibility and repeat this process until we have five positions then draw a line from the first point marked to the second point marked,then to the third,and so on the pentagram within a circle will be the design-iconic symbol.

The five-pointed star would appear either upright or inverted depending on when a person began to observe and plot the positions of Venus. Only the planet Venus can recreate this five-pointed star sign.

[Mesenja]

You read this post (http://www.waltermartin.com//forums/showthread.php?p=45087#poststop) ?

MacG




You can read my reply here:I'm willing to say your right (http:///www.waltermartin.com/forums/showthread.php?p=45156#poststop)

[Mesenja]

Its called the fallacy of special pleading. The informal fallacy of special pleading is committed whenever an argument includes some double standard.

Here you are correctly arguing that a symbol can only be defined by the person or group using it but only when it supports your argument.






That isn't what I said.. I said that the meaning of those symbols was twisted by evil to be their symbols.. And as I said to be clear I will use the Cross!.. IHS Jim





I told you how the Hexagram came into use by Israel. I also explained how the 5 pointed star was a symbol of the wounds of Jesus. How others used it before that to me is not an issue.. IHS Jim





Yes they didn't want to use it as a symbol of faith so they twist it to their own purposes. IHS Jim

.

Here is what you said to Russ. You made the claim that the symbol of the five pointed star does not become satanic unless used in the inverted position. You are guilty of the fallacy of special pleading as your argument includes a double standard.




Look at it close Russ.. It doesn't become satanic unless used in the inverted position.. Sort of like an upside down cross. This is NOT true on the Salt Lake Temple.. Their satanic symbols are chiseled in stone. IHS Jim

[MacG]

The meaning of symbols can only be defined by the person or group using it.

I agree. Since above you indicated that you are not taking this very seriously and given that you chose to not to actually address the bulk of my question, I would not want to waste your time asking you for the definitions of the remaining symbols (are they not important to you?), could you do me a favor and point me to where it is the TCJCLDS defines these symbols? Otherwise I only have the "anteemormon" sites to glean from and without your help I will continue to be misinformed about the TCJCLDS all the while ***umng that they are right about the remaining symbols.

Blessings,

MacG

[James Banta]

Its called the fallacy of special pleading. The informal fallacy of special pleading is committed whenever an argument includes some double standard.

Here you are correctly arguing that a symbol can only be defined by the person or group using it but only when it supports your argument.


Here is what you said to Russ. You made the claim that the symbol of the five pointed star does not become satanic unless used in the inverted position. You are guilty of the fallacy of special pleading as your argument includes a double standard.

If you can show me that this was installed in the building upside down we can discuss their intentions.. But the pictures given here doesn't show the that just the window in display.. IHS jim

[shoedog]

Definition:The informal fallacy of special pleading is committed whenever an argument includes some double standard.

Your logicasal fallacy isn't applied correctly. It would be a double standard if in the same context of time, for example.

Below is an example how times and meanings change. Same verse:

Song 5:4 "My beloved extended his hand through the opening,
And my feelings were aroused for him. NAS (recent)

Song 5:4 My beloved put in his hand by the hole of the door, and my bowels were moved for him. KJV ((not so recent)

My point is what meanings were fine and acceptable 400 years ago may mean something different now. What what no special meaning 500 years ago in a German church, upside down pentagram, or even 1500 years ago in the ancient Christian community... may have been become an emblem for satanism and later used by churches honoring him. Why use anything if something with a better meaning is available?

Look at the history of LDSism. It includes masonic rituals which continue today, moonstones and other occult symvolism such as the upside down pentagram, an idol - different god on top of temples instead of a cross which certainly is a known CHristian symbology, etc.

Given the heresies and unscriptural teaching one may conclude the upside down pentagram simply acknowledges the spirit behind LDS Mormon teaching.

Thanks, shoe :)

[Mesenja]

Temple East Side:Melchizedek Priesthood

Temple West Side : Aaronic Priesthood.

Three Towers East:First Presidency

Three Towers West:Presiding Bishopric

Twelve Pinnacles East:Quorum of Twelve

Twelve Pinnacles West:High Council

Buds and Leaves:Rebirth and Resurrection

Gold Moroni Statue:Moroni faces East denoting the place of residence for the true and living God of Israel (Hebrew- קדים qadiym east,east wind,east of direction,forward) Moroni returned on September 23,the day of the Jewish Feast known as “the Day of Trumpets” (Leviticus 23:24),with the keys of the Book of Mormon and the everlasting gospel to preach to all that dwell upon the earth (Joel 2:1).

Alpha and Omega Scrolls East and West Windows & Pillars:They declare the names of God. The Alpha sign is found in the inlaid brick of the pillars of the temple and the Omega sign is found over every window. The scroll is a symbol of the word of God (Ezekiel 3:1-4),declaring that he is the “I Am” (Exodus 3 12-14) and the “Alpha” and “Omega”.

The Big Dipper (Ursa Major):The seven (perfect) six-sided (fixed position) stars literally (from the alignment on the temple) point to the North Star (Stella Maris),a polar star for determining location. One can gain their bearings through the priesthood and can gain perfection as they observe the constant or polar star who is Jesus Christ.

Stars:One hundred and eleven stars found on the Temple. Stars have always been a symbol for men. (Revelation 14:4;Isaiah 14:12-14;Genesis 22:17;1 Nephi 1:10-11,etc.)

Five-pointed Upward Stars:Directly below the east center tower is a row of four upright stars,as well as three stars on each of the other two towers. These stars are not found on the west towers because the Aaronic Priesthood receives its light from the Melchizedek Priesthood. Represents men and women set upright before the Lord from their ‘natural’ state to pursue a righteous path into eternity in the house of the Lord (i.e. Temple).

Inverted Stars:Represent the planet Venus or the ‘bright and morning star’ (Revelation 22:16). They are made to symbolize God,his relationship to man and his eternal nature.

Cloud Stones:The cloud is a symbol of ‘the glory of the God’. (D&C 84:5) Israel saw the cloud as both dark and bright (Exodus 40:34-38). They are found atop of the East center tower. The North side cloud represents ‘billowy clouds’ or white and the South side cloud represents ‘storm clouds or black.

Earth Stones:They are found on all four corners of the Temple and signify mankind and is declared to be ‘the footstool of God’ (D&C 38:17).

Moon Stones: Israel was governed by the moon (Leviticus 23) with its first month being Abib or April (Exodus 12:2). There are fifty moon stones encomp***ing the Temple. They signify that God is one eternal round (D&C 3:2) and vertically in the sun-moon-earth signs are symbolic of Celestial-Terrestial-Telestial Kingdoms.

Guardians of the Temple:Beside each East side door are the two niches bearing the bronze statues of Joseph and Hyrum Smith signifying that for this dispensation its two original presidents who were martyred for the cause (D&C 135) stand guard over the city of God like the priests did anciently over earthly cities. (2 Chronicles 8:14;Revelation 21:12) It is also symbolic of the guardian angels (1 Kings 6:32, 35) who watch over the Temple and the need for those who wish to enter the presence of the Lord to p*** by the sentinels (D&C 132:18-19).

Honey Bee or Deseret [Egyptian dsrt ] (Ether 2:3):There are twenty-four bee hives on the Temple. Orson Pratt stated that the honey bee is a type for the eternal nature of God and his plan;swarming out [hive] to fill eternities and procreate in greater number (Journal of Discourses,1:294).

Golden Flowering Vines:The golden hinges of the temple doors are shaped like flowering vines signifying that Christ is ‘the True Vine’ (John 15:1-8),‘the Tree of Life’(1 Nephi 11:4-8),‘the Keeper of the Gate’(2 Nephi 9:41). The entire door has depictions of vines,branches,leaves, fruits,and beehives,which represents the garden of Eden. It is to signify that just as Adam and Eve exited Eden Garden and the Presence of the Lord so one must enter the same way.

All-Seeing Eyes:They are found on the East and West sides of the Temple or the Front and the Back. The all-seeing eye is an ancient emblem and represents the omniscience of God (Proverbs 15:3) and His ability to discern the good and evil deeds of man. All worthy individuals who worship at the temple are ushered in into the presence of the Lord to be granted greater light and knowledge. The eye is always the right eye being symbol of covenants. What appears at first to be and eyelid is in reality the veil of the temple.

Capstone:The capstone is the ball on which Moroni stands and is a symbol of completion or perfection.

Handclasp:The clasping of right hands represent the ‘right hand of fellowship’ (Galatians 2:9),but that within the Temple it is symbolic of receiving a handclasp from the Lord and ‘take hold’ of the Him in His holy house (Isaiah 56:4-7).





I agree. Since above you indicated that you are not taking this very seriously and given that you chose to not to actually address the bulk of my question,I would not want to waste your time asking you for the definitions of the remaining symbols (are they not important to you?)

Could you do me a favor and point me to where it is the TCJCLDS defines these symbols? Otherwise I only have the "a*t*-Mormon" sites to glean from and without your help I will continue to be misinformed about the TCJCLDS all the while ***umng that they are right about the remaining symbols.

Blessings,

MacG

[shoedog]

Hey, everybody, get yer torches and pitchforks---it's time to tear down the biggest user of Satanic symbols--The Boy Scouts of America!

http://wikicompany.org/wiki/images/thumb/Boy_Scouts.jpg/107px-Boy_Scouts.jpg[/color]

shoe: Start 'em young while they're weak.

http://www.ldsscouting.org/index.shtml

That figures, "We are committed to providing information and resources that Bishoprics and Young Men leaders may use for running effective Aaronic Priesthood Scouting Programs. We believe that effective Scouting programs can have a tremendous impact on the lives of our young men. We are especially conscious of the need to strengthen the programs for our older young men.


President Gordon B. Hinckley has stated:
"I love the Scouting movement. If every boy in America knew and observed the Scout Oath, we would do away with most of the jails and prisons in this country. This program builds boys, builds their futures, leads them on the right path so they can make something of their lives. Every man or woman who helps a boy along the road of life not only does a great thing for him but does a great thing for society as a whole." ..."

[nrajeff]

...and Shoe is on record as being in the Conspiracy Theory of the Month Club. Every month, you will be sent a new conspiracy theory to examine. If you decide to swallow...er, keep it, you will be billed in many easy payments....

This month's theory: That the Boy Scouts of America is really an evil, satanic cult that is working against the USA and against Christianity. Newest subscriber: Shoe D. Og.

[Mesenja]

You argue that when used by Christians the pentagram symbolised the five wounds of Jesus. When it is utilized by us on some of our temples it is satanic. You are using a double standard.






The pentagram was first used in the Church to bring to mind the five wounds of Jesus. Twisting the meaning of these symbols they have been made to equal evil. IHS Jim







If you can show me that this was installed in the building upside down we can discuss their intentions. But the pictures given here doesn't show that just the window in display.. IHS Jim

[Mesenja]

Come back with a better counter argument Shoe_dog. You can start by trying to understand what the logical fallacy of special pleading is.


Definition:Special Pleading is a fallacy in which a person applies standards,principles,rules,etc. to others while taking themself (or those they have a special interest in) to be exempt,without providing adequate justification for the exemption.

You have applied a different standard to the Evangelische-Lutheran Pfarramt Marktkirch and early Christianity then you did to us.


"What [had] no special meaning 500 years ago in a German church,upside down pentagram,or even 1500 years ago in the ancient Christian community may have been become an emblem for satanism and later used by churches honoring him.

Here is an example of special pleading as committed by James Banta. First he argues that when used by Christians the pentagram symbolised the five wounds of Jesus. Then he employs the double standard of saying that when it is utilized by us on some of our temples it is satanic.



The pentagram was first used in the Church to bring to mind the five wounds of Jesus. Twisting the meaning of these symbols they have been made to equal evil. IHS Jim

If you can show me that this was installed in the building upside down we can discuss their intentions. But the pictures given here doesn't show that just the window in display.. IHS Jim

[nrajeff]

Come back with a better counter argument Shoe_dog. You can start by trying to understand what the logical fallacy of special pleading is.

You have applied a different standard to the Evangelische-Lutheran Pfarramt Marktkirch and early Christianity then you did to us.
Here is an example of special pleading as committed by James Banta. First he argues that when used by Christians the pentagram symbolised the five wounds of Jesus. Then he employs the double standard of saying that when it is utilized by us on some of our temples it is satanic.

----Thanks for that well-done, easy to understand primer--with real-life examples--on the logical fallacy called special pleading.

[James Banta]

You argue that when used by Christians the pentagram symbolised the five wounds of Jesus. When it is utilized by us on some of our temples it is satanic. You are using a double standard.

I don't think so. I think I have a handle on why you use the stars.. I don't believe mormons use it as a Satanic symbol it represents the telestial kingdom to you.. A Kingdom no where mentioned in the Bible (or anywhere else). A Kingdom invented by Joseph Smith.. While celestial and terrestrial are both spoken of in the Bible telestial is NOT..Even the concept is not in the Bible.. But it is a unique mormon doctrine.. At any rate the five pointed star has more to do with masonry that Christianity.. They have incorporated many symbols in to their rites that have more to do with Satanic practice than they do with truth.. IHS jim

[shoedog]

...and Shoe is on record as being in the Conspiracy Theory of the Month Club. Every month, you will be sent a new conspiracy theory to examine. If you decide to swallow...er, keep it, you will be billed in many easy payments....

This month's theory: That the Boy Scouts of America is really an evil, satanic cult that is working against the USA and against Christianity. Newest subscriber: Shoe D. Og.

Lol. Your arguments can't withstand scrutiny (or light of truth) so you make stuff up? Reread the post I replied to scooter, ok? I'm praying for ya. shoe :)

[shoedog]

Come back with a better counter argument Shoe_dog. You can start by trying to understand what the logical fallacy of special pleading is.



You have applied a different standard to the Evangelische-Lutheran Pfarramt Marktkirch and early Christianity then you did to us.

.


Here is an example of special pleading as committed by James Banta. First he argues that when used by Christians the pentagram symbolised the five wounds of Jesus. Then he employs the double standard of saying that when it is utilized by us on some of our temples it is satanic.

You're totally oblivious to logic, no? Are you saying the upside down pentagram, a symbol having relatively recently begun being recognized by some as a satanic symbol, can't be considered as the same on a relatively young LDS temple (given their history with the occult) just because the LDS don't want it to be that way?

You ignored the point meanings of words and symbols change over time. If nothing else, the LDS should remove their questionable symbology (as LDS even suggest) and even their little golden idol that tellingly takes the place of a cross... though don'[t even need a cross. Sheesh, why not get rid of moonstones, etc. ? shoe :)

[MacG]

Temple East Side:Melchizedek Priesthood

Temple West Side : Aaronic Priesthood.

Three Towers East:First Presidency

Three Towers West:Presiding Bishopric

Twelve Pinnacles East:Quorum of Twelve

Twelve Pinnacles West:High Council

Buds and Leaves:Rebirth and Resurrection

Gold Moroni Statue:Moroni faces East denoting the place of residence for the true and living God of Israel (Hebrew- קדים qadiym east,east wind,east of direction,forward) Moroni returned on September 23,the day of the Jewish Feast known as “the Day of Trumpets” (Leviticus 23:24),with the keys of the Book of Mormon and the everlasting gospel to preach to all that dwell upon the earth (Joel 2:1).

Alpha and Omega Scrolls East and West Windows & Pillars:They declare the names of God. The Alpha sign is found in the inlaid brick of the pillars of the temple and the Omega sign is found over every window. The scroll is a symbol of the word of God (Ezekiel 3:1-4),declaring that he is the “I Am” (Exodus 3 12-14) and the “Alpha” and “Omega”.

The Big Dipper (Ursa Major):The seven (perfect) six-sided (fixed position) stars literally (from the alignment on the temple) point to the North Star (Stella Maris),a polar star for determining location. One can gain their bearings through the priesthood and can gain perfection as they observe the constant or polar star who is Jesus Christ.

Stars:One hundred and eleven stars found on the Temple. Stars have always been a symbol for men. (Revelation 14:4;Isaiah 14:12-14;Genesis 22:17;1 Nephi 1:10-11,etc.)

Five-pointed Upward Stars:Directly below the east center tower is a row of four upright stars,as well as three stars on each of the other two towers. These stars are not found on the west towers because the Aaronic Priesthood receives its light from the Melchizedek Priesthood. Represents men and women set upright before the Lord from their ‘natural’ state to pursue a righteous path into eternity in the house of the Lord (i.e. Temple).

Inverted Stars:Represent the planet Venus or the ‘bright and morning star’ (Revelation 22:16). They are made to symbolize God,his relationship to man and his eternal nature.

Cloud Stones:The cloud is a symbol of ‘the glory of the God’. (D&C 84:5) Israel saw the cloud as both dark and bright (Exodus 40:34-38). They are found atop of the East center tower. The North side cloud represents ‘billowy clouds’ or white and the South side cloud represents ‘storm clouds or black.

Earth Stones:They are found on all four corners of the Temple and signify mankind and is declared to be ‘the footstool of God’ (D&C 38:17).

Moon Stones: Israel was governed by the moon (Leviticus 23) with its first month being Abib or April (Exodus 12:2). There are fifty moon stones encomp***ing the Temple. They signify that God is one eternal round (D&C 3:2) and vertically in the sun-moon-earth signs are symbolic of Celestial-Terrestial-Telestial Kingdoms.

Guardians of the Temple:Beside each East side door are the two niches bearing the bronze statues of Joseph and Hyrum Smith signifying that for this dispensation its two original presidents who were martyred for the cause (D&C 135) stand guard over the city of God like the priests did anciently over earthly cities. (2 Chronicles 8:14;Revelation 21:12) It is also symbolic of the guardian angels (1 Kings 6:32, 35) who watch over the Temple and the need for those who wish to enter the presence of the Lord to p*** by the sentinels (D&C 132:18-19).

Honey Bee or Deseret [Egyptian dsrt ] (Ether 2:3):There are twenty-four bee hives on the Temple. Orson Pratt stated that the honey bee is a type for the eternal nature of God and his plan;swarming out [hive] to fill eternities and procreate in greater number (Journal of Discourses,1:294).

Golden Flowering Vines:The golden hinges of the temple doors are shaped like flowering vines signifying that Christ is ‘the True Vine’ (John 15:1-8),‘the Tree of Life’(1 Nephi 11:4-8),‘the Keeper of the Gate’(2 Nephi 9:41). The entire door has depictions of vines,branches,leaves, fruits,and beehives,which represents the garden of Eden. It is to signify that just as Adam and Eve exited Eden Garden and the Presence of the Lord so one must enter the same way.

All-Seeing Eyes:They are found on the East and West sides of the Temple or the Front and the Back. The all-seeing eye is an ancient emblem and represents the omniscience of God (Proverbs 15:3) and His ability to discern the good and evil deeds of man. All worthy individuals who worship at the temple are ushered in into the presence of the Lord to be granted greater light and knowledge. The eye is always the right eye being symbol of covenants. What appears at first to be and eyelid is in reality the veil of the temple.

Capstone:The capstone is the ball on which Moroni stands and is a symbol of completion or perfection.

Handclasp:The clasping of right hands represent the ‘right hand of fellowship’ (Galatians 2:9),but that within the Temple it is symbolic of receiving a handclasp from the Lord and ‘take hold’ of the Him in His holy house (Isaiah 56:4-7).

.

Thanks for the courtesy of your reply :)

[Mesenja]

Thank you NRA_Jeff for the compliment. However even if they grudgingly come close to admitting guilt they still commit the same fallacy.




----Thanks for that well-done,easy to understand primer--with real-life examples--on the logical fallacy called special pleading.



I think that you will enjoy this flip flop by James Banta. He does it in the same post none the less. Enjoy! :)





I don't think so. I think I have a handle on why you use the stars. I don't believe Mormons use it as a satanic symbol it represents the telestial kingdom to you.




At any rate the five pointed star has more to do with Masonry that Christianity. They have incorporated many symbols in to their rites that have more to do with satanic practice than they do with truth. IHS Jim

[Mesenja]

The meaning of symbols can only be defined by the person or group using it. This entire accusation that the inverted five-pointed stars or pentagrams that decorate some LDS temples are occultic or even Satanic in nature is nonsense. It is a Christian symbol. The Savior called Himself “the bright…morning star (Revelation 22:16)” which is the planet Venus.

If you plot the exact position of Venus where it first appears shortly before sunrise after a period of invisibility and repeat this process until we have five positions then draw a line from the first point marked to the second point marked,then to the third,and so on the pentagram within a circle will be the design-iconic symbol.

The five-pointed star would appear either upright or inverted depending on when a person began to observe and plot the positions of Venus. Only the planet Venus can recreate this five-pointed star sign.


http://whatisthepyramid.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/venus-sun-orbit-pentagram.jpg


An example of a pentagram or an inverted five pointed star is found on the icon of the Transfiguration by Andrei Rublev (1405),now located in the Moscow Annunciation Cathedral.


http://www.heavenlyascents.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/transfiguration_icon_andrew_rublyov_01.JPG


I could go on but by now I think that you get the point. As to your questioning my logic I could do the same for yours. I would also question how much you studied the topic of pentagrams outisde of reading evangelical counter-cult literature.





You're totally oblivious to logic,no? Are you saying the upside down pentagram,a symbol having relatively recently begun being recognized by some as a satanic symbol,can't be considered as the same on a relatively young LDS temple (given their history with the occult) just because the LDS don't want it to be that way?

You ignored the point [that] meanings of words and symbols change over time. If nothing else,the LDS should remove their questionable symbolagy (as LDS even suggest) and even their little golden idol that tellingly takes the place of a cross... though don't even need a cross. Sheesh,why not get rid of moonstones,etc. ? Shoedog :)

[James Banta]

[Mesenja;45238]Thank you NRA_Jeff for the compliment. However even if they grudgingly come close to admitting guilt they still commit the same fallacy.
I think that you will enjoy this flip flop by James Banta. He does it in the same post none the less. Enjoy! :)


Tell me how saying that Mormons see the stars in different ways then Masons see them is a flip flop? Are you saying that I am wrong and you see them the say way that they do? As a mystic part of their secret ceremony? Many of them have that same design on their aprons.. You seeing a flip flop in my words is a weakness in your mind not in my words.. IHS jim

[Mesenja]

The use of a pentagram or five-pointed star in some Grand Lodge seals and banners as well as on the collar of office worn by the Masters of lodges and Grand Masters of Grand Lodges is strictly ornamental in nature. As to their aprons they have a picture of a comp*** and a square set at an angle of anywhere between 45° and 80° and, in some older examples,at 90°.



http:///rlv.zcache.com/freemason_apron-p154339628456104256q6wc_400.jpg





Tell me how saying that Mormons see the stars in different ways then Masons see them is a flip flop? Are you saying that I am wrong and you see them the say way that they do as a mystic part of their secret ceremony? Many of them have that same design on their aprons. You seeing a flip flop in my words is a weakness in your mind not in my words. IHS Jim

[Russ]

I could go on but by now I think that you get the point.

I'm not sure I do get your point.

There is much more to LDSism than you aren't saying - through the symbolism.

Sure, you give some hints here and there, but you aren't forthcoming regarding what you know.

"Mormonism creates a situation where potential converts of Mormonism do not have a fair chance to properly ***ess the ultimate teachings of Mormonism before deciding to join the LDS Church." -Hick Preacher

[shoedog]

The meaning of symbols can only be defined by the person or group using it. This entire accusation that the inverted five-pointed stars or pentagrams that decorate some LDS temples are occultic or even Satanic in nature is nonsense. It is a Christian symbol. The Savior called Himself “the bright…morning star (Revelation 22:16)” which is the planet Venus.

If you plot the exact position of Venus where it first appears shortly before sunrise after a period of invisibility and repeat this process until we have five positions then draw a line from the first point marked to the second point marked,then to the third,and so on the pentagram within a circle will be the design-iconic symbol.

The five-pointed star would appear either upright or inverted depending on when a person began to observe and plot the positions of Venus. Only the planet Venus can recreate this five-pointed star sign.


http://whatisthepyramid.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/venus-sun-orbit-pentagram.jpg


An example of a pentagram or an inverted five pointed star is found on the icon of the Transfiguration by Andrei Rublev (1405),now located in the Moscow Annunciation Cathedral.


http://www.heavenlyascents.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/transfiguration_icon_andrew_rublyov_01.JPG


I could go on but by now I think that you get the point. As to your questioning my logic I could do the same for yours. I would also question how much you studied the topic of pentagrams outisde of reading evangelical counter-cult literature.

I haven't studied pentagrams much other than noticing the contrast between early Christian sybology and the more current use as satanic symbol. Satan tends to screw up everything.

Rev 2:28 And I will give him the morning star. KJV

Being a NASA kid I understand the Venus correlation althoug you could do better pictures with a spirograph. What other designs could you make?... but until Apollo 11 we didn't have any moonstones. Where did the LDS get theirs? shoe :)

[Father_JD]

However I am not the one that is guilty of this fallacy. I would think that by now you would see this double standard at work. By the way the link works just fine for me. Here is the URL. There should be no excuses now as to why you can't watch this video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yIimYfclxl0

It's hardly "special pleading" which Mormons engage in all the time for the utter lack of textual evidence for the BOM, etc. :rolleyes:

According to some online sources, the pentagram has had a checkered history from pagan times, as well as being used by Christians especially several hundred years ago.

Again, the question remains as to MOTIVE, mdude.

When coupled with OTHER PAGAN, MASONIC SYMBOLS on Mormon temples, one could rightly infer that the REASON why the pentagram is used is in conjunction with the OTHER OCCULTIC SYMBOLS.

Get it? :rolleyes:

[James Banta]

You are willing to use some astrological chart and some art work of medieval origin to try to prove your point? Yes Jesus is the Bright and Morning Star. The harbinger of the Day, the life to come just as the morning star is the announcement of the sun and the day ahead.. The astrology of the planet Venus is not important. Jesus being the announcement of the LIGHT to come and the life for those who trust Him is what counts.. You can continue to point to this these Satanic practices it won't prove anything.. The ancient Church used this as a way to memorialize the suffering of Jesus, and as I have said (no flip flops in my doctrine). All I need for that is the cross.. I will put that symbol on my body and on my church buildings. I will leave all other symbols outside because they can be confused far to easily with Satanic symbols.. IHS jim

[nrajeff]

Lol. Your arguments can't withstand scrutiny (or light of truth) so you make stuff up?

----Where did shoot anyone holes in my arguments? I was just noting that you are out in wackyville with your rant on the Boy Scouts being a bunch of Satan worshipers. I think your theory is out to lunch. And I think it's YOUR theory that can't hold water. Some of the best men, best leaders, soldiers, patriots, CHURCHMEN in the USA, proudly served in the Boy Scouts.

[shoedog]

----Where did shoot anyone holes in my arguments? I was just noting that you are out in wackyville with your rant on the Boy Scouts being a bunch of Satan worshipers. I think your theory is out to lunch. And I think it's YOUR theory that can't hold water. Some of the best men, best leaders, soldiers, patriots, CHURCHMEN in the USA, proudly served in the Boy Scouts.

Where did I say Boy Scouts were satan worshipers? Regardless, check the news re: Scout leaders and little boys...women scout leaders and their finances, etc.

Not all scouts are bad apples of course and yes, I think some presidents were scouts...still...

shoe :)

[Mesenja]

Handclasp:The clasping of right hands represent the ‘right hand of fellowship’ (Galatians 2:9 (http:///scriptures.lds.org/en/search?search=Galatians+2%3A9&do=Search)),but that within the Temple it is symbolic of receiving a handclasp from the Lord and ‘take hold’ of the Him in His holy house (Isaiah 56:4-7 (http:///scriptures.lds.org/en/search?type=references&last=Galatians+2%3A9&help=&ro=checked&search=Isaiah+56%3A4-7&do=Search&show=%0D%0A%0D%0A)).

http://www.gaymormon.com/temple/hand.jpg



Early Christian Hand and Wrist Grips

God reaching down out of the veil-like cloud,to pull Christ up as he ascends into heaven.


http://www.cephas-library.com/Ascension.jpg


http://www.templestudy.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/christ-ascension-munich-ivory.jpg


Adam reaches around a pillar to grasp with his right hand the right hand of Christ.


http://www.cephas-library.com/img.gif

[James Banta]

The use of a pentagram or five-pointed star in some Grand Lodge seals and banners as well as on the collar of office worn by the Masters of lodges and Grand Masters of Grand Lodges is strictly ornamental in nature. As to their aprons they have a picture of a comp*** and a square set at an angle of anywhere between 45° and 80° and, in some older examples,at 90°.



http:///rlv.zcache.com/freemason_apron-p154339628456104256q6wc_400.jpg

I worked with a mason that told me that. I have no proof.. Does it make that much difference you just admitted that the repersentation fills their lodges.. IHS jim

[Mesenja]

Many scholars today,believe that the pentagram originated from ancient astronomical observances,tracing the eight-year cycle path of Venus (Also called the Morning and Evening star). It would then be quite logical for Christians to ***ociate the pentagram with Jesus Christ,since he,himself said,

"I am the root and the offspring of David,and the bright and morning star." (Revelations 22:16)

The reason Venus appears so bright in our horizon is because it actually reflects the light of the Sun. The symbol is inverted therefore to represent that as it's light is being drawn from from the rising sun the greatness and glory of Jesus Christ has come from God the Father.

It is also symbolic of those who overcome the world by becoming like Christ and have their "calling and election made sure."

"And he that overcometh,and keepeth my works unto the end,to him will I give power over the nations:And he shall rule them with a rod of iron;as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers;even as I received of my Father. And I will give him the morning star." (Revelation 2:26-28)

"We have also a more sure word of prophecy;whereunto ye do well that ye take heed,as unto a light that shineth in a dark place,until the day dawn, and the day star (Morning Star) arise in your hearts:" (2 Peter 1:10,v. 19)

To include some double standard in your argument in which a person applies standards,principles,rules,etc. to others while taking themself (or those they have a special interest in) to be exempt,without providing adequate justification for the exemption is comitting the fallacy of special pleading. You argue that when used by Christians the pentagram symbolised the five wounds of Jesus. When it is utilized by us on some of our temples it is satanic. You are using a double standard and are therefore guilty of the fallacy of special pleading.



The pentagram was first used in the Church to bring to mind the five wounds of Jesus. Twisting the meaning of these symbols they have been made to equal evil. IHS Jim


At any rate the five pointed star has more to do with Masonry that Christianity. They have incorporated many symbols in to their rites that have more to do with satanic practice than they do with truth. IHS Jim

Not only that but you flip flopped on your position concerning the use of stars on some of our temples. First you said that "the five pointed star has more to do with Masonry that Christianity. They have incorporated many symbols in to their rites that have more to do with satanic practice than they do with truth." Then you lectured me on how you had a handle on the meaning of the stars on some of our temples and that it was not Masonic in origin. You flip flopped on your position and said "I don't believe Mormons use it as a satanic symbol it represents the telestial kingdom to you."



At any rate the five pointed star has more to do with Masonry that Christianity. They have incorporated many symbols in to their rites that have more to do with satanic practice than they do with truth. IHS Jim
I don't think so. I think I have a handle on why you use the stars. I don't believe Mormons use it as a satanic symbol it represents the telestial kingdom to you.

The Old Testament law commanded the Israelites,“Do not cut your bodies for the dead or put tattoo marks on yourselves. I am the LORD” (Leviticus 19:28 (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/search?type=references&last=Isaiah+56%3A4-7&help=&ro=checked&search=Leviticus+19%3A28&do=Search&show=%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A)). Yet you say that you will "put that symbol on my body and on my church buildings."

Also in Sir John Gardner Wilkinson book en***led Wilkinson's Egyptians he shows that the cross was originally a pagan symbol and it existed centuries before Christianity.

http://www.sabbathcovenant.com/doctrine/egyptians-cross.jpg

Are we then to conclude from this that you have incorporated the pagan symbol of the cross in to your rites that have more to do with satanic practice than they do with truth? Any reasonable person would say that this would be drawing a false conclusion. Yet that is exactly the basis of the argument that you have given me. You are arguing that since the five pointed star is linked with Masonry and is satanic then the inverted stars on some of our temples are therfore occultic or even satanic in nature.


You can continue to point to this these Satanic practices it won't prove anything. The ancient Church used this as a way to memorialize the suffering of Jesus,and as I have said (no flip flops in my doctrine). All I need for that is the cross. I will put that symbol on my body and on my church buildings. I will leave all other symbols outside because they can be confused far to easily with Satanic symbols. IHS Jim

The inverted pentagram has a long history,and only took on negative connotations in the last one hundred years.

As I have stated before,


The meaning of symbols can only be defined by the person or group using it.

[shoedog]

Many scholars today,believe that the pentagram originated from ancient astronomical observances,tracing the eight-year cycle path of Venus (Also called the Morning and Evening star). It would then be quite logical for Christians to ***ociate the pentagram with Jesus Christ,since he,himself said,

"I am the root and the offspring of David,and the bright and morning star." (Revelations 22:16)

The reason Venus appears so bright in our horizon is because it actually reflects the light of the Sun. The symbol is inverted therefore to represent that as it's light is being drawn from from the rising sun the greatness and glory of Jesus Christ has come from God the Father.

It is also symbolic of those who overcome the world by becoming like Christ and have their "calling and election made sure."

All planets reflect sunlight. Heck, even the moon is a good example. MAybe that's why the LDS have moonstones as well on their temple?

But, I'd like to see a source or two for scholars claiming the pentagram was derived from the orbits of Venus and I'd wager it ws a pagan group making the ***ociation, Druids or even Egyptions perhaps?

Here's the issue: as you say the upside down pentagram for the most part has a satanic connatation today. Why in the world given the LD Mormon connection with the Masons, moonstones, golden idols, communication with the dead, and so on... why wouldn't the LDS church get rid of this stuff and not appear satanic but actually concerned about the image the present to say, satanists?

Tanks, shoe :)

[theway]

...why wouldn't the LDS church get rid of this stuff and not appear satanic but actually concerned about the image the present to say, satanists?

Tanks, shoe :)You're right, the Church should be more concerned with what the world thinks, and should change every time the world's mores change.

[shoedog]

You're right, the Church should be more concerned with what the world thinks, and should change every time the world's mores change.

LDS Mormons already do this... they did it with:

Polygamy, people of color and priesthood, temple rituals (throat slashing gestures), etc.

Changes in future will be women's rights, historical accuracy in the BoM, Book of Abraham, etc.

Face it, LDS mormonsim depends on people accepting links to occult and false teaching. They are changing into more Christian behavior with each generation. Given time, even the pentragrams, moonstones, and Masonic symbols will quietly disappear. Regardless, they'll change because God cares.

Thanks, shoe :)

[James Banta]

Many scholars today,believe that the pentagram originated from ancient astronomical observances,tracing the eight-year cycle path of Venus (Also called the Morning and Evening star). It would then be quite logical for Christians to ***ociate the pentagram with Jesus Christ,since he,himself said,

"I am the root and the offspring of David,and the bright and morning star." (Revelations 22:16)

The reason Venus appears so bright in our horizon is because it actually reflects the light of the Sun. The symbol is inverted therefore to represent that as it's light is being drawn from from the rising sun the greatness and glory of Jesus Christ has come from God the Father.

It is also symbolic of those who overcome the world by becoming like Christ and have their "calling and election made sure."

"And he that overcometh,and keepeth my works unto the end,to him will I give power over the nations:And he shall rule them with a rod of iron;as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers;even as I received of my Father. And I will give him the morning star." (Revelation 2:26-28)

"We have also a more sure word of prophecy;whereunto ye do well that ye take heed,as unto a light that shineth in a dark place,until the day dawn, and the day star (Morning Star) arise in your hearts:" (2 Peter 1:10,v. 19)

To include some double standard in your argument in which a person applies standards,principles,rules,etc. to others while taking themself (or those they have a special interest in) to be exempt,without providing adequate justification for the exemption is comitting the fallacy of special pleading. You argue that when used by Christians the pentagram symbolised the five wounds of Jesus. When it is utilized by us on some of our temples it is satanic. You are using a double standard and are therefore guilty of the fallacy of special pleading.



Not only that but you flip flopped on your position concerning the use of stars on some of our temples. First you said that "the five pointed star has more to do with Masonry that Christianity. They have incorporated many symbols in to their rites that have more to do with satanic practice than they do with truth." Then you lectured me on how you had a handle on the meaning of the stars on some of our temples and that it was not Masonic in origin. You flip flopped on your position and said "I don't believe Mormons use it as a satanic symbol it represents the telestial kingdom to you."



The Old Testament law commanded the Israelites,“Do not cut your bodies for the dead or put tattoo marks on yourselves. I am the LORD” (Leviticus 19:28 (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/search?type=references&last=Isaiah+56%3A4-7&help=&ro=checked&search=Leviticus+19%3A28&do=Search&show=%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A)). Yet you say that you will "put that symbol on my body and on my church buildings."

Also in Sir John Gardner Wilkinson book en***led Wilkinson's Egyptians he shows that the cross was originally a pagan symbol and it existed centuries before Christianity.

Are we then to conclude from this that you have incorporated the pagan symbol of the cross in to your rites that have more to do with satanic practice than they do with truth? Any reasonable person would say that this would be drawing a false conclusion. Yet that is exactly the basis of the argument that you have given me. You are arguing that since the five pointed star is linked with Masonry and is satanic then the inverted stars on some of our temples are therfore occultic or even satanic in nature.



The inverted pentagram has a long history,and only took on negative connotations in the last one hundred years.

As I have stated before,

Yes Jesus is the best and the brightest of all He is the bright and morning star.. I don't contend against the word.. I don't believe that has anything to do with Venus. It is the first fruit of the resurection the brightest and best amoung us all..

Do you keep all the words of Jesus? All of them? If you are honest you will say NO.. So if you look at Rev 2:26-28 as being we have to live the whole Law in order to recieve Jesus then no one will ever receive Him.. But If he lives that Law for us and gives to those who become His Children by faith then His words he asks us to keep are simple.. He asked us to Love and hold our faith (Eph 3:17).. If you must do the *** without Jesus what good in His suffering..

You take my explanations of these symbols as being a flip flop of my position. They aren't.. I even said I know why you use them.. That doesn't change the FACT that these symbols have been used in Satanic rites.. I said and stand by the statement that I will use the cross and put away the use of anything that could be seen in a negative way.. Mormonism has turned from the Cross and puts these markings on their sacred buildings. Unlike mormonism I turn from every appearance of evil (1 These 5:22).. If you want to continue to engage in that appearance then do so just don't tell me you are a Bible believing Christian.. If you reject any of it (Found in the original language from the oldest m****cripts God has preserved for us) you are NOT a Christian..

You are doing something that is very common among mormons here.. You are twisting my words.. I never said I tattooed my body.. I don't tattoo a church building when the Mark of my Lord in put in it.. I often wear a cross.. It is a great reminder to me that I am His that He bought me for a price I am His and not my own (1 Cor 6:19-20). I won't wear anything on me that doesn't bring Him glory.. There is no way that in my flesh I can 'choose the right'.. My only hope is in the Blood of Jesus and not by choosing the right doing the right or being in the right.. I leave that to those that belittle the saving power of Jesus.. IHS jim

[nrajeff]

Where did I say Boy Scouts were satan worshipers?
---Here, in post 37:

shoe: Start 'em young while they're weak.

That figures, "We are committed to providing information and resources that Bishoprics and Young Men leaders may use for running effective Aaronic Priesthood Scouting Programs. We believe that effective Scouting programs can have a tremendous impact on the lives of our young men. We are especially conscious of the need to strengthen the programs for our older young men.

President Gordon B. Hinckley has stated:
"I love the Scouting movement. If every boy in America knew and observed the Scout Oath, we would do away with most of the jails and prisons in this country. This program builds boys, builds their futures, leads them on the right path so they can make something of their lives. Every man or woman who helps a boy along the road of life not only does a great thing for him but does a great thing for society as a whole." ..."

You were expressing your belief that Scouting is satanic, because it uses inverted stars, and because the LDS church supports Scouting's ideals. Plus, you just said:

Regardless, check the news re: Scout leaders and little boys...women scout leaders and their finances, etc.

---Using that terrible logic, if we Google "Evangelicals and pedophilia" or "Evangelicals and hookers" or "Evangelicals and embezzlement" and get any hits, it proves that Evangelicalism is SATANIC. Great logic there, Einstein.

[Mesenja]

Eye of God

http://religions.huji.ac.il/graphics/allseeing.gif


The eyes of the Lord are on the righteous." (Psalms 34:15)

The eyes of the Lord are in every place." (Proverbs 15:3)


The Eye of God is a picture of an equilateral triangle with a single eye inside it and almost always with rays emanating from it. The eye represents the omnipresence and omniscience of God,who watches over all things The triangle is ***ociated with the Trinity.


http://www.religionfacts.com/christianity/images/symbols/triangles/eye-of-god-supper-at-emmaus-1525-wga-200.jpg

The Supper of Emmaus painted in 1525 by Jacopo Pontormo.


http://sacredheartlancaster.org/gallery/images/3%20God%20Father%20OT.JPG

Sacred Heart Church;Lancaster,CA


http://www.sacrednumber.co.uk/storage/450px-Allsehendes_Auge_am_Tor_des_Aachener_Dom.JPG?__SQU ARESPACE_CACHEVERSION=1175933070953

Aachen Cathedral;Aachen,Germany

[shoedog]

---Here, in post 37:


You were expressing your belief that Scouting is satanic, because it uses inverted stars, and because the LDS church supports Scouting's ideals. Plus, you just said:


---Using that terrible logic, if we Google "Evangelicals and pedophilia" or "Evangelicals and hookers" or "Evangelicals and embezzlement" and get any hits, it proves that Evangelicalism is SATANIC. Great logic there, Einstein.

LOL Jeff. I quoted LDS leaders. In other words I never said the Boy Scouts were satanic, right? sheesh shoe :0

[shoedog]

Temple East Side:Melchizedek Priesthood

Temple West Side : Aaronic Priesthood.

Three Towers East:First Presidency

Three Towers West:Presiding Bishopric

Twelve Pinnacles East:Quorum of Twelve

Twelve Pinnacles West:High Council

Buds and Leaves:Rebirth and Resurrection

Gold Moroni Statue:Moroni faces East denoting the place of residence for the true and living God of Israel (Hebrew- קדים qadiym east,east wind,east of direction,forward) Moroni returned on September 23,the day of the Jewish Feast known as “the Day of Trumpets” (Leviticus 23:24),with the keys of the Book of Mormon and the everlasting gospel to preach to all that dwell upon the earth (Joel 2:1).

Alpha and Omega Scrolls East and West Windows & Pillars:They declare the names of God. The Alpha sign is found in the inlaid brick of the pillars of the temple and the Omega sign is found over every window. The scroll is a symbol of the word of God (Ezekiel 3:1-4),declaring that he is the “I Am” (Exodus 3 12-14) and the “Alpha” and “Omega”.

The Big Dipper (Ursa Major):The seven (perfect) six-sided (fixed position) stars literally (from the alignment on the temple) point to the North Star (Stella Maris),a polar star for determining location. One can gain their bearings through the priesthood and can gain perfection as they observe the constant or polar star who is Jesus Christ.

Stars:One hundred and eleven stars found on the Temple. Stars have always been a symbol for men. (Revelation 14:4;Isaiah 14:12-14;Genesis 22:17;1 Nephi 1:10-11,etc.)

Five-pointed Upward Stars:Directly below the east center tower is a row of four upright stars,as well as three stars on each of the other two towers. These stars are not found on the west towers because the Aaronic Priesthood receives its light from the Melchizedek Priesthood. Represents men and women set upright before the Lord from their ‘natural’ state to pursue a righteous path into eternity in the house of the Lord (i.e. Temple).

Inverted Stars:Represent the planet Venus or the ‘bright and morning star’ (Revelation 22:16). They are made to symbolize God,his relationship to man and his eternal nature.

Cloud Stones:The cloud is a symbol of ‘the glory of the God’. (D&C 84:5) Israel saw the cloud as both dark and bright (Exodus 40:34-38). They are found atop of the East center tower. The North side cloud represents ‘billowy clouds’ or white and the South side cloud represents ‘storm clouds or black.

Earth Stones:They are found on all four corners of the Temple and signify mankind and is declared to be ‘the footstool of God’ (D&C 38:17).

Moon Stones: Israel was governed by the moon (Leviticus 23) with its first month being Abib or April (Exodus 12:2). There are fifty moon stones encomp***ing the Temple. They signify that God is one eternal round (D&C 3:2) and vertically in the sun-moon-earth signs are symbolic of Celestial-Terrestial-Telestial Kingdoms.

Guardians of the Temple:Beside each East side door are the two niches bearing the bronze statues of Joseph and Hyrum Smith signifying that for this dispensation its two original presidents who were martyred for the cause (D&C 135) stand guard over the city of God like the priests did anciently over earthly cities. (2 Chronicles 8:14;Revelation 21:12) It is also symbolic of the guardian angels (1 Kings 6:32, 35) who watch over the Temple and the need for those who wish to enter the presence of the Lord to p*** by the sentinels (D&C 132:18-19).

Honey Bee or Deseret [Egyptian dsrt ] (Ether 2:3):There are twenty-four bee hives on the Temple. Orson Pratt stated that the honey bee is a type for the eternal nature of God and his plan;swarming out [hive] to fill eternities and procreate in greater number (Journal of Discourses,1:294).

Golden Flowering Vines:The golden hinges of the temple doors are shaped like flowering vines signifying that Christ is ‘the True Vine’ (John 15:1-8),‘the Tree of Life’(1 Nephi 11:4-8),‘the Keeper of the Gate’(2 Nephi 9:41). The entire door has depictions of vines,branches,leaves, fruits,and beehives,which represents the garden of Eden. It is to signify that just as Adam and Eve exited Eden Garden and the Presence of the Lord so one must enter the same way.

All-Seeing Eyes:They are found on the East and West sides of the Temple or the Front and the Back. The all-seeing eye is an ancient emblem and represents the omniscience of God (Proverbs 15:3) and His ability to discern the good and evil deeds of man. All worthy individuals who worship at the temple are ushered in into the presence of the Lord to be granted greater light and knowledge. The eye is always the right eye being symbol of covenants. What appears at first to be and eyelid is in reality the veil of the temple.

Capstone:The capstone is the ball on which Moroni stands and is a symbol of completion or perfection.

Handclasp:The clasping of right hands represent the ‘right hand of fellowship’ (Galatians 2:9),but that within the Temple it is symbolic of receiving a handclasp from the Lord and ‘take hold’ of the Him in His holy house (Isaiah 56:4-7).

.

Hey thanks Mesenja. I never heard from an LDS the explanation of LDS symbology.

I am curious given your: "The Big Dipper (Ursa Major):The seven (perfect) six-sided (fixed position) stars literally (from the alignment on the temple) point to the North Star (Stella Maris),a polar star for determining location. One can gain their bearings through the priesthood and can gain perfection as they observe the constant or polar star who is Jesus Christ."

What do LDS follow to gain their bearings in the Southern Hemishpere? The Southern Cross? thanks, shoe :)

[Mesenja]

You're right,the Church should be more concerned with what the world thinks,and should change every time the world's mores change.



Shoedog is desperately trying to avoid the subject of this thread because he is failing miserably to show any connection between the symbols on some of our temples and their occult or even sinister Satanic origin.

[shoedog]

Shoedog is desperately trying to avoid the subject of this thread because he is failing miserably to show any connection between the symbols on some of our temples and their occult or even sinister Satanic origin.

The connection has been made so often it's worth repeating. Change is good for the LDS. Mormon. So far, God has removed polygamy, racsim, throat slahing gestures in LDS temple ceremonies, Masonry, underwear more contemporary, communicating with the dead and other occult practices, etc. ... I wonder, what's next? Officailly declaring the Bom and Book of Abe inspired fiction since it's so historically flawed and inaccurate?

Given the obvious history of LDS and the occult it's not a stretch to see the satanic influence on the idols and symbols adorning their temples. It's like religion to the symbols, idols, and greed if nothing else. lol shoe :)

[Mesenja]

http://www.freemasonry.bcy.ca/images/beehive02.jpg

The bee represents hard work,diligence,harmony,and order. The honey,the essence of the activity of the hive,is a symbol of Christ and the virginity of Mary. The honey has also become in Christian symbolism a sign of religious eloquence,***igned to saints like St. Ambrose and St. Bernard of Clairvaux. St. Ambrose compared the beehive to the church as a symbol of the pious and unified community,and the Christian to the ardently working bee,who never sleeps,always vigilant and constantly acquiring virtue,adding "honey" to the whole community. (Commentary on Dat Rosa Mel Apibus by John Eberly)

[nrajeff]

LOL Jeff. I quoted LDS leaders.
---Yes, you quoted them in some ridiculous attempt to support your belief that Scouting is satanic. News flash: If Scouting ISN'T satanic, then the fact that the LDS church supports Scouting is WORTHLESS as evidence that Scouting is satanic. I know this is high-school-level logic, but try to keep up.



In other words I never said the Boy Scouts were satanic, right?
---Sure you did. You just did it in a cute, semi-ambiguous, Pharisaical way.

[nrajeff]

More like an apt symbol for mindless drones in Mormonism, M.

---Now now, you shouldn't describe yourself (as you were for decades) that way.

[MacG]

Eye of God

http://religions.huji.ac.il/graphics/allseeing.gif


The eyes of the Lord are on the righteous." (Psalms 34:15)

The eyes of the Lord are in every place." (Proverbs 15:3)

The Eye of God is a picture of an equilateral triangle with a single eye inside it and almost always with rays emanating from it. The eye represents the omnipresence and omniscience of God,who watches over all things The triangle is ***ociated with the Trinity.

http://www.religionfacts.com/christianity/images/symbols/triangles/eye-of-god-supper-at-emmaus-1525-wga-200.jpg

The Supper of Emmaus painted in 1525 by Jacopo Pontormo.

http://sacredheartlancaster.org/gallery/images/3%20God%20Father%20OT.JPG

Sacred Heart Church;Lancaster,CA

http://www.sacrednumber.co.uk/storage/450px-Allsehendes_Auge_am_Tor_des_Aachener_Dom.JPG?__SQU ARESPACE_CACHEVERSION=1175933070953

Aachen Cathedral;Aachen,Germany

Hey, where'd you get that first eye? That one isn't Mormon as it is the left eye.

Thanks for your posts though,

MacG

[Mesenja]

http://www.freemasonry.bcy.ca/images/beehive02.jpg

The bee represents hard work,diligence,harmony,and order. The honey,the essence of the activity of the hive,is a symbol of Christ and the virginity of Mary. The honey has also become in Christian symbolism a sign of religious eloquence,***igned to saints like St. Ambrose and St. Bernard of Clairvaux. St. Ambrose compared the beehive to the church as a symbol of the pious and unified community,and the Christian to the ardently working bee,who never sleeps,always vigilant and constantly acquiring virtue,adding "honey" to the whole community. (Commentary on Dat Rosa Mel Apibus by John Eberly)

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_RqKgZuCw4G0/SxwtXRgSLLI/AAAAAAAAF8k/eNrU94kBiVU/s320/saint-ambrose.jpg

Saint Ambrose bishop of Milan b. 340 d. 397 He was nicknamed The Honey Tongued Doctor.

[nrajeff]

Interesting lessons from the History of Christianity, Mesenja. Thanks for sharing it.

[Mesenja]

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_RqKgZuCw4G0/SxwtXRgSLLI/AAAAAAAAF8k/eNrU94kBiVU/s320/saint-ambrose.jpg

Saint Ambrose bishop of Milan b. 340 d. 397 He was nicknamed The Honey Tongued Doctor.


"The bee is more honored than other animals,not because it labors, but because it labors for others." (St. John Chrysostom 12th Homily)


http://www.traditioninaction.org/religious/religiousimages/F018_StPeter01.jpg


In the columns of the Altar of the Confession in St. Peter's Basilica one finds bees among the leaves and flowers.

[Mesenja]

Interesting lessons from the History of Christianity,Mesenja. Thanks for sharing it.


These are quotes taken from "The Bee,A Symbol of the Church by Catherine Croisette. Here the symbolism of the bee is obviously taken from a Catholic perspective. However to make the quip like Father _JD did to me that the bee is "More like an apt symbol for mindless drones in Mormonism,Mesenja" either shows ignorance on his part or a knee **** negative reaction to anything dealing with the Latter-day Saints. You take your pick NRA_Jeff. And they say that we are mindless drones in a cult. :rolleyes:



I later found a text of St. John Chrysostom in which he in some way confirmed that explanation when he wrote:"The bee is more honored than other animals,not because it labors,but because it labors for others" (12th Homily). So,I realized that the bees,like the clergy and religious men and women in the Church,work unceasingly for the common good of the hive and obey without question their superiors,and above all their queen.


The bee is also a symbol of wisdom,for it collects nectar from many flowers and turns it into nourishing and pleasing honey,which is the 'gold' of bees.


As the Church gives grace through the purity of her divine Sacraments,so the bees give us honey and wax by the labor of their pure bodies. This is why their wax,considered the fruit of a virgin labor,is worthy to burn in the candles on the altar at the offering of the Holy Sacrifice.


The honey,so agreeable to the palate,is symbolic of spiritual sweetness and religious eloquence. For this reason,the beehive is emblematic of St. Ambrose and of St. Bernard of Clairvaux,two Doctors whom the Church calls mellifluus and mellificuus,that is,with an eloquence as suave and “sweet as honey.”


Like charitable Catholics,bees produce good works for their neighbor at all times by pollinating the plants for food,beauty and air quality,so necessary for the survival of others.


They [the bees] are instantly and vigorously militant against enemies of the hive. Not only the hive,but the honey,upon which their lives depend,is also vigorously protected.This is a marvelous and unique natural phenomenon that signifies other marvelous and unique phenomena of the Catholic Church:her militant members,her apologists and her martyrs. They gave their lives for the good of the Church,and their blood became the seed for vibrant growth,as happened many times in History.


The bees’ survival depends upon a queen and their unquestioning obedience and loyalty to her,just as we are all absolutely dependent upon Our Lady,the Queen of Heaven,for our eternal salvation and our protection from the world,the flesh and the devil.


Bees observe such a tremendous reverence for their authority that none dare leave the hive to swarm in other pastures unless the queen has gone forth in front of them and claimed the first rank of flight for herself. The ever-vigilant bees guard their queen and hive - as we should guard Our Queen and our Church - to the ultimate price, and instinctively consider it a duty to die for them.



Finally,perhaps you noticed,the natural beehive is shaped similarly to a traditional Tabernacle!

[Mesenja]

Hey,where'd you get that first eye? That one isn't Mormon as it is the left eye.

Thanks for your posts though,MacG



I did not notice that the first image is a depiction of the left eye. Thanks for pointing that out to me. By the way you are welcome.

[Mesenja]

---Yes, you quoted them in some ridiculous attempt to support your belief that Scouting is satanic. News flash:If Scouting ISN'T satanic,then the fact that the LDS church supports Scouting is WORTHLESS as evidence that Scouting is satanic. I know this is high-school-level logic,but try to keep up.

Boy Scouts use the pentagram,have secret handshakes & swear oaths just like satanists. Therefore the only conclusion that one can come to is crystal clear. Boy Scouts are satanists. Once again Shoedog has used impeccable logic and presented irrefutable proof to courageously tell us this sobering truth. :rolleyes:

[Mesenja]

Boy Scouts use the pentagram,have secret hand shakes & swear oaths just like satanists. Therefore the only conclusion one can come to is crystal clear. Boy Scouts are satanists. Once again Shoedog has used impeccable logic and irrefutable proof to courageously tell us this sobering truth.



Illuminati Hand Signs and Handshakes-Ron Paul (http://www.mefeedia.com/watch/26624063)

[Mesenja]

The pentagram was a religious symbol that was used by medieval Christians in representing the five wounds of Christ. The triangle symbolized the holy Trinity and was representative of the 3 beings of the Godhead plus the two natures of Christ. The church eventually chose the cross as a symbol for Christianity,and the use of the pentagram as a Christian symbol gradually ceased.


http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2033/2290582865_9a088976cc.jpg?v=0

St. Mary's Church;Adderbury,Oxfordshire,England


Amongst the Hebrews,the symbol was ascribed to Truth and to the five books of the Pentateuch.It was also the seal of the city of Jerusalem.


http://pool.fairmormon.org/wiki/images/9/98/Inv.stars.fig05.jpg


The first time the pentagram was ever ***ociated with the occult was in the mid 19th century when a French magician Eliphas Levi mistakenly claimed that the inverted pentagram was a symbol for the goat god Baphomet. It was only in the late 20th century that the Church of Satan decided to use it for themselves.


http:///www.pagannews.com/images/pent_down.gif


On Mormon temples the pentagram point-down represents Christ’s descent to earth. Point-up,it represents Christ’s ascent to heaven. The adaptation of the pentagram into a Satanic symbol is a modern invention. This ***ociation was not known at the time when Joseph Smith was alive.


http://www.templestudy.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/02/nauvoo-pentagrams.jpg

[shoedog]

Illuminati Hand Signs and Handshakes-Ron Paul (http://www.mefeedia.com/watch/26624063)

shoe: I was just taking NRAjeff's word for it, my bad. Further proof you can't trust what LDS Mormons say?

Lookee here: http://www.waltermartin.com//forums/showthread.php?p=45311#poststop

NRAjeff: "Hey, everybody, get yer torches and pitchforks---it's time to tear down the biggest user of Satanic symbols--The Boy Scouts of America!

http://wikicompany.org/wiki/images/t...Boy_Scouts.jpg


And check out the flag of the Order of New Templars, a secret society in Austria founded by Lanz von Liebenfels.

http://wikicompany.org/wiki/images/t...w_templars.gif


It uses the CROSS and the SWASTIKA. "Proving" that any church that uses the sign of the cross, is secretly a Nazi cult...according to extremist Evangelical reasoning. Right?"

shoe: Any attempt to try to discredit my integrity and honesty should first be compared to your own... or once again, you simply look silly. Praying for you LDS, sheesh. God help them, shoe :)

[Mesenja]

I know from his posts that it appears that he is not the sharpest crayon in the pencil box however can he not understand sarcasm?



---Yes, you quoted them in some ridiculous attempt to support your belief that Scouting is satanic. News flash:If Scouting ISN'T satanic,then the fact that the LDS church supports Scouting is WORTHLESS as evidence that Scouting is satanic. I know this is high-school-level logic,but try to keep up.


---Sure you did. You just did it in a cute, semi-ambiguous, Pharisaical way.


Shoedog:I was just taking NRAjeff's word for it,my bad. Further proof you can't trust what LDS Mormons say?

Lookee here:NraJeff Hey,everybody,get yer... 01-05-2010,02:29 PM (http://www.waltermartin.com/forums/showthread.php?p=45115#poststop)


"Hey,everybody,get yer torches and pitchforks---it's time to tear down the biggest user of Satanic symbols--The Boy Scouts of America!

http:///wikicompany.org/wiki/images/thumb/Boy_Scouts.jpg/107px-Boy_Scouts.jpg


Check out the flag of the Order of New Templars, a secret society in Austria founded by Lanz von Liebenfels.

http://wikicompany.org/wiki/images/thumb/New_templars.gif/120px-New_templars.gif

It uses the CROSS and the SWASTIKA. "Proving" that any church that uses the sign of the cross, is secretly a Nazi cult...according to extremist Evangelical reasoning. Right?"


Shoedog:Any attempt to try to discredit my integrity and honesty should first be compared to your own... or once again,you simply look silly. Praying for you LDS,sheesh. God help them,Shoedog :)

[Russ]

Temple East Side:Melchizedek Priesthood

Temple West Side : Aaronic Priesthood.

Three Towers East:First Presidency

Three Towers West:Presiding Bishopric

Twelve Pinnacles East:Quorum of Twelve

Twelve Pinnacles West:High Council

Buds and Leaves:Rebirth and Resurrection

Gold Moroni Statue:Moroni faces East denoting the place of residence for the true and living God of Israel (Hebrew- קדים qadiym east,east wind,east of direction,forward) Moroni returned on September 23,the day of the Jewish Feast known as “the Day of Trumpets” (Leviticus 23:24),with the keys of the Book of Mormon and the everlasting gospel to preach to all that dwell upon the earth (Joel 2:1).

Alpha and Omega Scrolls East and West Windows & Pillars:They declare the names of God. The Alpha sign is found in the inlaid brick of the pillars of the temple and the Omega sign is found over every window. The scroll is a symbol of the word of God (Ezekiel 3:1-4),declaring that he is the “I Am” (Exodus 3 12-14) and the “Alpha” and “Omega”.

The Big Dipper (Ursa Major):The seven (perfect) six-sided (fixed position) stars literally (from the alignment on the temple) point to the North Star (Stella Maris),a polar star for determining location. One can gain their bearings through the priesthood and can gain perfection as they observe the constant or polar star who is Jesus Christ.

Stars:One hundred and eleven stars found on the Temple. Stars have always been a symbol for men. (Revelation 14:4;Isaiah 14:12-14;Genesis 22:17;1 Nephi 1:10-11,etc.)

Five-pointed Upward Stars:Directly below the east center tower is a row of four upright stars,as well as three stars on each of the other two towers. These stars are not found on the west towers because the Aaronic Priesthood receives its light from the Melchizedek Priesthood. Represents men and women set upright before the Lord from their ‘natural’ state to pursue a righteous path into eternity in the house of the Lord (i.e. Temple).

Inverted Stars:Represent the planet Venus or the ‘bright and morning star’ (Revelation 22:16). They are made to symbolize God,his relationship to man and his eternal nature.

Cloud Stones:The cloud is a symbol of ‘the glory of the God’. (D&C 84:5) Israel saw the cloud as both dark and bright (Exodus 40:34-38). They are found atop of the East center tower. The North side cloud represents ‘billowy clouds’ or white and the South side cloud represents ‘storm clouds or black.

Earth Stones:They are found on all four corners of the Temple and signify mankind and is declared to be ‘the footstool of God’ (D&C 38:17).

Moon Stones: Israel was governed by the moon (Leviticus 23) with its first month being Abib or April (Exodus 12:2). There are fifty moon stones encomp***ing the Temple. They signify that God is one eternal round (D&C 3:2) and vertically in the sun-moon-earth signs are symbolic of Celestial-Terrestial-Telestial Kingdoms.

Guardians of the Temple:Beside each East side door are the two niches bearing the bronze statues of Joseph and Hyrum Smith signifying that for this dispensation its two original presidents who were martyred for the cause (D&C 135) stand guard over the city of God like the priests did anciently over earthly cities. (2 Chronicles 8:14;Revelation 21:12) It is also symbolic of the guardian angels (1 Kings 6:32, 35) who watch over the Temple and the need for those who wish to enter the presence of the Lord to p*** by the sentinels (D&C 132:18-19).

Honey Bee or Deseret [Egyptian dsrt ] (Ether 2:3):There are twenty-four bee hives on the Temple. Orson Pratt stated that the honey bee is a type for the eternal nature of God and his plan;swarming out [hive] to fill eternities and procreate in greater number (Journal of Discourses,1:294).

Golden Flowering Vines:The golden hinges of the temple doors are shaped like flowering vines signifying that Christ is ‘the True Vine’ (John 15:1-8),‘the Tree of Life’(1 Nephi 11:4-8),‘the Keeper of the Gate’(2 Nephi 9:41). The entire door has depictions of vines,branches,leaves, fruits,and beehives,which represents the garden of Eden. It is to signify that just as Adam and Eve exited Eden Garden and the Presence of the Lord so one must enter the same way.

All-Seeing Eyes:They are found on the East and West sides of the Temple or the Front and the Back. The all-seeing eye is an ancient emblem and represents the omniscience of God (Proverbs 15:3) and His ability to discern the good and evil deeds of man. All worthy individuals who worship at the temple are ushered in into the presence of the Lord to be granted greater light and knowledge. The eye is always the right eye being symbol of covenants. What appears at first to be and eyelid is in reality the veil of the temple.

Capstone:The capstone is the ball on which Moroni stands and is a symbol of completion or perfection.

Handclasp:The clasping of right hands represent the ‘right hand of fellowship’ (Galatians 2:9),but that within the Temple it is symbolic of receiving a handclasp from the Lord and ‘take hold’ of the Him in His holy house (Isaiah 56:4-7).

Mind if I get a reference for your references to reference others for references?

...or something like that.

Cl*** starts next week. :-)

[nrajeff]

[/COLOR]Boy Scouts use the pentagram,have secret handshakes & swear oaths just like satanists. Therefore the only conclusion that one can come to is crystal clear. Boy Scouts are satanists. Once again Shoedog has used impeccable logic and presented irrefutable proof to courageously tell us this sobering truth. :rolleyes:

---Yup, maybe he's a graduate of Westboro Baptist's School of Conspiracy Theories

[Mesenja]

I have you on permanent ignore. Can you figure out what that means Russ?

[nrajeff]

I know from his posts that it appears that he is not the sharpest crayon in the pencil box however can he not understand sarcasm?

---Who knows? But I TRIED to make it clear that it was a conclusion that could be reached according to extremist Evangelical reasoning. Maybe when I used the words


according to extremist Evangelical reasoning

it was not plain enough?

[James Banta]

---Yup, maybe he's a graduate of Westboro Baptist's School of Conspiracy Theories

But there is no maybe about mormonism it is an evil antichristian cult..
Now that we have the name calling out of the way. Maybe we can try to understand each other on these symbols.. Yes they are used in Satanic ritual. Yes it would be better if the Church would have just abandon them.. But there will be some of these marks of architecture that is several hundred years old.

It is quite clear from the Bible that the cross is a symbol used extensively by the Church..
Matt 10:38, Matt 16:24, Mark 8:34, Mark 10:21, Luke 9:23, Luke 14:27
1 Cor 1:17-18, Gal 5:11, Gal 6:12,14, Eph 2:16, Phil 2:8, Col 1:20
Col 2:14, Heb 12:2..
Against which the pentagram has the following references (ZERO)..
Yes there are some references for it being used by the Church as I have already shown on this thread but it is the Cross that Church must take up and follow Jesus, not the pentagram or the hexagram.. IHS jim

[shoedog]

---Who knows? But I TRIED to make it clear that it was a conclusion that could be reached according to extremist Evangelical reasoning. Maybe when I used the words



it was not plain enough?

I ***umed you two always told the truth like well, Jesus would do. No? Now THAT was sarcasm. Sheesh. LOL you guys crack me up. Hey y'all, is they any there any credible LDS Mormons out der fer us ignirint tipes? :p shoe LOL :)

[Russ]

I have you on permanent ignore. Can you figure out what that means Russ?

Aw, shucks. I guess that means I'll just have to Google your quotes.

Oughta take about 2 minutes, I guess.

Thought ya might wanna talk about it.

[shoedog]

I have you on permanent ignore. Can you figure out what that means Russ?

I guess it means you keep replying to his comments? sheesh, who knows what you mean. shoe :)

[Mesenja]

From his posts he must believe in the mythology that our taking control of the Boy Scouts and turning it into a satanic cult is a sign that either the arrival of Satan to take over the world or that the endtimes is about to appear.


...and Shoe is on record as being in the Conspiracy Theory of the Month Club. Every month, you will be sent a new conspiracy theory to examine. If you decide to swallow...er, keep it, you will be billed in many easy payments....

This month's theory:That the Boy Scouts of America is really an evil, satanic cult that is working against the USA and against Christianity. Newest subscriber: Shoe D. Og.

I guess that he would like us to take out a subscription to the Conspiracy Theory of the Month Club. Either that or he can't see the obvious. You take your pick Jeff.

[Mesenja]

You have given absolutely no proof that the symbols that adorn some of our temples are occultic or even Satanic in nature.


The connection has been made so often it's worth repeating. Change is good for the LDS. Mormon. So far,God has removed polygamy,racsim,throat slahing gestures in LDS temple ceremonies,Masonry,underwear more contemporary,communicating with the dead and other occult practices,etc. ... I wonder,what's next? Officailly declaring the Book of Mormon and Book of Abraham inspired fiction since it's so historically flawed and inaccurate? Given the obvious history of LDS and the occult it's not a stretch to see the satanic influence on the idols and symbols adorning their temples. It's like religion to the symbols, idols, and greed if nothing else. LOL Shoedog :)

[Mesenja]

First you said that Masons used the pentagram as a part of their secret ceremony and many of them have the same design on their aprons.


Are you saying that I am wrong and you see them the say way that they do as a mystic part of their secret ceremony? Many of them have that same design on their aprons. IHS Jim

Then when you are pressed to provide any evidence of your claim you back down and ask me if it makes any difference.



I worked with a Mason that told me that. I have no proof.. Does it make that much difference? You just admitted that the repersentation fills their lodges.. IHS Jim

What I said was that the use of a pentagram or five-pointed star in some Grand Lodge seals and banners as well as on the collar of office worn by the Masters of lodges and Grand Masters of Grand Lodges is strictly ornamental in nature. Once again you are proven wrong.

[shoedog]

You have given absolutely no proof that the symbols that adorn some of our temples are occultic or even Satanic in nature.

Actually according to you if I recall correctly, the upside down pentagram IS a satanic symbol. True? Maybe it was another TBM. Regardless, given the LDS Mormon connection and communication with ghosts and the dead, occult and/or Masonic ritual in temple ceremonies, fictional canon like BoM or Book of Abe, etc. it only follows the spirit behind the doctrines and symbols of LDS mormonism is at least in part satanic IMHO.

Frankly, what you believe as LDSism is NOT what Joseph Smith, et al taught. LDS are slowly bowing to common sense and scripture by slowly ridding themselves of goofy doctrine and symbols... like changing the priestly underwear generationally as well as temple rituals. Sounds deceptive to me... and who is the father of untruth, of lies? So LDS are deceived by the panteistic and occultic symbols.

shoe :)

[nrajeff]

I guess that he would like us to take out a subscription to the Conspiracy Theory of the Month Club. Either that or he can't see the obvious. You take your pick Jeff.

My best guess is that he has realized that his logic was a huge non sequitur or post hoc ergo propter hoc (or "correlation, ergo causation") fallacy, and that he is now trying to run from taking responsibility for it. It was amusing to see him even try the "Both the Scouts and the satanists use star symbols, therefore Scouts are satanists" fallacy.

[nrajeff]

If you really have jumped on the "You need to prove a negative, otherwise you lose" bandwagon, then go ahead and prove that the adoption of the cruciform by Christianity was NOT derived from the Egyptian ankh.

[Mesenja]

What I said was that a French magician Eliphas Levi mistakenly claimed that the inverted pentagram was a symbol for the goat god Baphomet. It was only in the late 20th century that the Church of Satan decided to use it for themselves.

On Mormon temples the pentagram point-down represents Christ’s descent to earth. Point-up,it represents Christ’s ascent to heaven. The adaptation of the pentagram into a Satanic symbol is a modern invention. This ***ociation was not known at the time when Joseph Smith was alive.



Actually according to you if I recall correctly,the upside down pentagram IS a satanic symbol. True? Maybe it was another TBM. Regardless,given the LDS Mormon connection and communication with ghosts and the dead, occult and/or Masonic ritual in temple ceremonies,fictional canon like Book of Mormon or Book of Abraham,etc. it only follows the spirit behind the doctrines and symbols of Latter-day Saint Mormonism is at least in part satanic IMHO.


Chanting this nonsensical accusation that the upside down pentagram has some sort of occultic or even satanic connection will not make it true. The inverted five-pointed star had a sacred meaning among the ancient Christians and it also has a sacred meaning among the Latter-day Saints.

[Russianwolfe]

If you really have jumped on the "You need to prove a negative, otherwise you lose" bandwagon, then go ahead and prove that the adoption of the cruciform by Christianity was NOT derived from the Egyptian ankh.

Hey, the cross was a Roman torture device. And it was used many (thousands?) of times during Roman times and used by many other groups before and after the Romans. Would that make it a Satanic device?

Marvin

[Mesenja]

If you really have jumped on the "You need to prove a negative,otherwise you lose" bandwagon,then go ahead and prove that the adoption of the cruciform by Christianity was NOT derived from the Egyptian ankh.

Here are some more symbols that were adopted by Christians with pagan origins.



1. Wedding Ring

The binding use of the ring for betrothal ceremonies originated in the pagan supers***ion of a man tying cords around the waist,wrists and ankles of the woman he had fallen in love with,to make sure that her spirit would be held under his control.

And there are many legends about the magic powers of finger rings. According to a popular legend,King Solomon had a ring that transported him every day at noon into the celestial sphere,where he heard the secrets of the universe. Another legend claims that Solomon had his ring set with precious stones and used it as a magic mirror in which he was able to see the reflected image of any place or person he wished. Solomon’s ring was later found and used by Jewish exorcists to drag demons out through the noses of sick people.

Until the seventeenth century astrological finger rings were very popular. These rings developed out of the belief it was important to wear rings formed of the gems and metals ***igned to each of the seven planetary gods.

There are also many stories about the healing power of finger rings. The Greek physician Galen wrote of the Egyptian king’s use of curative rings. Edward the Confessor,king of England supposedly gave a pilgrim a ring in lieu of money. The pilgrim was the the Apostle John in disguise,who returned the ring to the king,saying that he had blessed it and had given it curative powers. From that time on, up to the reign of Queen Mary I in the 16th century,on Good Friday,English kings and queens blessed and distributed rings held to be a cure for the ‘falling sickness’ (epilepsy).

2. Blessings

The word blessing comes from the term blessen,which developed from the Old English blaedsian (preserved in the Northumbrian dialect around 950 AD). It also appears in other forms,such as bledsian (before 830) and derived from Proto-Germanic word blothisojan (around 725 ),and blesian (from around 1000),all meaning to mark with blood. An ancient Pagan ritual was to make sacred or holy by a sacrificial custom in the Anglo-Saxon pagan period,originating in Germanic paganism;by making a mark with blood as a sign of sincerity.

3. Christian Fish ('The Jesus Fish')

Ichthys (Greek:ἰχθύς,capitalized ΙΧΘΥΣ or ΙΧΘΥC),was the ancient and cl***ical word for "fish." The ichthys was adopted by early Christian as a secret symbol now known colloquially as the "sign of the fish" or the "Jesus fish." The fish symbol was used to mark meeting places and tombs,or to distinguish friends from foes.

In Babylonian mythology,Ichthys was the son of Atargatis the mermaid and fertility goddess of the seas. To the Babylonians the 'fish symbol' was a representation of sexuality and fertility.

The fish symbol was used by neo-pagan as a religious symbol ***ociated with the Great Mother Goddess. It was the outline of her womb. Often the image was drawn by overlapping two very thin crescent moons.



If we follow the same twisted logic of Shoe_dog that he uses on the origins and significance of symbols on our temples to Christian symbology then it's nonsensical conclusion would be that these are "evil" symbols and occultic or even Satanic in nature. Maybe Shoe_dog needs to write out on a blackboard a 100 times the sentence "The meaning of symbols can only be defined by the person or group using it."

[Russ]

My best guess is that he has realized that his logic was a huge non sequitur or post hoc ergo propter hoc (or "correlation, ergo causation") fallacy, and that he is now trying to run from taking responsibility for it. It was amusing to see him even try the "Both the Scouts and the satanists use star symbols, therefore Scouts are satanists" fallacy.

Symbolism is important in every society and every religion.

What's important to Mormons is displayed on its temples.

The most amazing thing is not what's displayed (although that is amazing in itself), but rather what's MISSING.

No crosses.

The cross is foolishness to those who are perishing.

[Russianwolfe]

Symbolism is important in every society and every religion.

What's important to Mormons is displayed on its temples.

The most amazing thing is not what's displayed (although that is amazing in itself), but rather what's MISSING.

No crosses.

The cross is foolishness to those who are perishing.

The cross is a Roman torture device. And they weren't the first to use it. I think the Egyptians used the cross, as well as other people after the Romans. So, is the cross a Roman symbol of torture and death or a Christian symbol? You decide.

Marvin

[nrajeff]

Symbolism is important in every society and every religion.

What's important to Mormons is displayed on its temples.
---Good point: The symbols that are displayed symbolize JESUS. You, on the other hand, prefer to make a big deal out of a symbol of what killed Him. Interesting, as Richard would say.


The most amazing thing is not what's displayed (although that is amazing in itself), but rather what's MISSING.
---Well, I'd rather have a cross missing, than have Jesus missing.


The cross is foolishness to those who are perishing.
---What is foolishness is ascribing supers***ious power to the cross. There is no "power in the cross." The power is in the Person who overcame it.

[Mesenja]

You asked the following question:"Are you good enough...NOW?".




The perennial question for Mormons is:Are you good enough...NOW? Can't find the German church with pentagrams...Of course,the Mesenja-dude is trying to equivocate from the pentagrams on the LDS temple. :rolleyes:



Russ asked me the very same question and I will give you the very same answer I gave Russ who is now on my permanent ignore list.





Originally Posted by Russ:The Book of Mormon informs us that "enduring to the end" means to "deny yourself all ungodliness." What is all ungodliness? Everything that isn't God. Have you endured to the end? Are you good enough? Yet?


Yea,come unto Christ,and be perfected in him,and deny yourselves of all ungodliness;and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness,and love God with all your might,mind and strength,then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ;and if by the grace of God ye are perfect in Christ,ye can in nowise deny the power of God.



Do you actually think that those who did not endure to the end will be saved?


Matthew 10:22

22And ye shall be hated of all men for my name’s sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

You asked the question:"Are you good enough? Yet?" And my answer to this question is very simple. No. (http:///scriptures.lds.org/en/search?type=references&last=Glatians+2%3A+21&help=&ro=checked&search=Galatians+2%3A+21&do=Search) I can never do enough works to ever be called a profitable servant (http:///scriptures.lds.org/en/search?search=Mosiah+2%3A21&do=Search) by the Lord. I also can never display a sufficient quality of faith that would be acceptable to God if judged strictly by the standards of divine law. Who can repay God? In this mortal probation all that is asked of me is that I always be a good and faithful servant (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/search?type=references&last=Matt.+25%3A+21%2C+23&help=&ro=checked&search=Matt.+25%3A+21&do=Search&show=%0D%0A%0D%0A) who has proven ever faithful with a few things;and will one day be put in charge of many things. He has already shown us the way,provided the means necessary and paid the full price. What little he requires of us is not to make up for what he has not done in regards to our salvation. It is asked of us so that we may learn through our own experience how to act like he acts,love how he loves,think like he thinks,in order to be able to share in the Master's happiness.

No the perennial and penetrating question is the one posed by President Thomas S. Monson.


"Thousands of honest,searching souls continue to be confronted by that penetrating question which coursed through the mind of Joseph Smith as he surveyed the declarations made by the churches of his community concerning who is right and who is wrong. Joseph said:"'In the midst of this war of words and tumult of opinions,I often said to myself:What is to be done? Who of all these parties are right;or,are they all wrong together? If any one of them be right,which is it,and how shall I know it? . . ." 'At length I came to the conclusion that I must either remain in darkness and confusion,or else I must do as James directs,that is,ask of God' (Joseph Smith—History 1:10,13)." He prayed. The results of that prayer are best described in Joseph's own words. You know them:"'I saw two Personages,whose brightness and glory defy all description,standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me,calling me by name and said,pointing to the other—This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!' (Joseph Smith—History 1:17)." Joseph listened;Joseph learned. His question had been answered." [Thomas S. Monson,"Great Expectations" address given at Brigham Young University,Jan. 11,2009]

In your question there is the implication that I do not have any ***urance of my salvation. First let me say that I have salvation.


Good Christian people sometimes attach different meanings to some key gospel terms like saved or salvation. If we answer according to what our questioner probably means in asking if we have been “saved,” our answer must be “yes.” If we answer according to the various meanings we attach to the terms saved or salvation,our answer will be either “yes” or “yes, but with conditions.” [Dallin H. Oaks,“Have You Been Saved?,” Ensign,May 1998,55]

Before continuing it is necessary that the gospel of Jesus Christ be explained as salvation comes by having obeyed the gospel as "faith cometh by hearing,and hearing by the word of God." (Romans 10:13-17)


"The gospel of Jesus Christ is the plan of salvation. It embraces all of the laws,principles, doctrines, rites,ordinances, acts,powers,authorities,and keys necessary to save and exalt men in the highest heaven hereafter. It is the covenant of salvation which the Lord makes with men on earth." [Elder Bruce R. McConkie,Mormon Doctrine]

As Latter-day Saints when we use the words saved and salvation,there are at least seven different meanings.

1. For Latter-day Saints we are saved when we are cleansed from sin through Christ’s Atonement.

2. For Latter-day Saints we are saved from being i*g*n*o*r*a*n*t* of the of the saving truths of the gospel.

3. For Latter-day Saints we are saved by being born again when we enter into a covenant relationship with our Savior through baptism and take upon us the name of Jesus Christ. We can renew that rebirth each Sabbath when we partake of the sacrament.

4. For Latter-day Saints we are saved only if we are obedient to the present covenant relationship we have with Jesus Christ.

5. For Latter-day Saints we are saved conditionally according to the individual sinner’s faith,which must be manifested by obedience to the Lord’s command to repent,be baptized,and receive the Holy Ghost.

6. For Latter-day Saints we are saved from death through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.


7. For Latter-day Saints we are saved from the second death (meaning the final spiritual death) by ***urance of a kingdom of glory in the world to come. Specifically it means exaltation or eternal life (see Abraham 2:11) which is sometimes referred to as the “fulness of salvation”

[Father_JD]

You asked the question:"Are you good enough? Yet?" And my answer to this question is very simple. No. I can never do enough works to ever be called a profitable servant by the Lord. I also can never display a sufficient quality of faith that would be acceptable to God if judged strictly by the standards of divine law. Who can repay God?


Sounds both "Biblical and Christian", Mdude. However it's mere lip-service and I'll show you WHY:




In this mortal probation all that is asked of me is that I always be a good and faithful servant who has proven ever faithful with a few things;and will one day be put in charge of many things. He has already shown us the way,provided the means necessary and paid the full price. What little he requires of us is not to make up for what he has not done in regards to our salvation. It is asked of us so that we may learn through our own experience how to act like he acts,love how he loves,think like he thinks,in order to be able to share in the Master's happiness.


And where I've emboldened the text is WHERE you show your true colors, M. Have you ALWAYS been a "good and fiathful servant"?? In other words, ARE YOU GOOD ENOUGH...NOW? And then also, "what he REQUIRES OF US". Have you done EVERYTHING he "requires" of you? In other words, ARE YOU GOOD ENOUGH...NOW?

I'm always amazed how LDS can affirm one thing, and literally contradict themselves once they begin to EXPLAIN their position. Sorry, M., but Russ is right: Are you good enough? :rolleyes:



No the perennial and penetrating question is the one posed by President Thomas S. Monson.


Quote:
"Thousands of honest,searching souls continue to be confronted by that penetrating question which coursed through the mind of Joseph Smith as he surveyed the declarations made by the churches of his community concerning who is right and who is wrong. Joseph said:"'In the midst of this war of words and tumult of opinions,I often said to myself:What is to be done? Who of all these parties are right;or,are they all wrong together? If any one of them be right,which is it,and how shall I know it? . . ." 'At length I came to the conclusion that I must either remain in darkness and confusion,or else I must do as James directs,that is,ask of God' (Joseph Smith—History 1:10,13)." He prayed.


Just so you know, JS AND TM have MISAPPLIED and MISUSED the verse from James. NO WHERE in scripture is one commended to PRAY to know the validity of TRUTH PROPOSITIONS. Hence, any "result" can NOT be trusted via this very fractured epistome. Got it?? :rolleyes:




...The results of that prayer are best described in Joseph's own words. You know them:"'I saw two Personages,whose brightness and glory defy all description,standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me,calling me by name and said,pointing to the other—This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!' (Joseph Smith—History 1:17)." Joseph listened;Joseph learned. His question had been answered." [Thomas S. Monson,"Great Expectations" address given at Brigham Young University,Jan. 11,2009]


Yadda. The last of 9 VERSIONS. Yawn.

I

n your question there is the implication that I do not have any ***urance of my salvation. First let me say that I have salvation.

And now we'll witness just HOW you EQUIVOCATE the BIBLICAL MEANING OF THE TERM TO MAKE IT MEAN SOMETHING "ELSE":


Quote:
Good Christian people sometimes attach different meanings to some key gospel terms like saved or salvation. If we answer according to what our questioner probably means in asking if we have been “saved,” our answer must be “yes.” If we answer according to the various meanings we attach to the terms saved or salvation,our answer will be either “yes” or “yes, but with conditions.” [Dallin H. Oaks,“Have You Been Saved?,” Ensign,May 1998,55]

And since there are "conditions", ultimately the Mormon can NOT know he possesses salvation in the BIBLICAL sense.



Before continuing it is necessary that the gospel of Jesus Christ be explained as salvation comes by having obeyed the gospel as "faith cometh by hearing,and hearing by the word of God." (Romans 10:13-17)

Hense, the Mormon can NEVER KNOW whether he has "salvation" because he must always be mindful that it "comes by having obeyed" the tenets of Mormonism. :rolleyes:



Quote:
"The gospel of Jesus Christ is the plan of salvation. It embraces all of the laws,principles, doctrines, rites,ordinances, acts,powers,authorities,and keys necessary to save and exalt men in the highest heaven hereafter. It is the covenant of salvation which the Lord makes with men on earth." [Elder Bruce R. McConkie,Mormon Doctrine]

As Latter-day Saints when we use the words saved and salvation,there are at least seven different meanings.


Ah...finally, we'll see the EQUIVOCATION from the TWO Biblical meanings of the term.



1. For Latter-day Saints we are saved when we are cleansed from sin through Christ’s Atonement.


Saved HOW? Uh, methinks PHYSICAL RESURRECTION is intended here, no?



2. For Latter-day Saints we are saved from being i*g*n*o*r*a*n*t* of the of the saving truths of the gospel.


You made this one up.



3. For Latter-day Saints we are saved by being born again when we enter into a covenant relationship with our Savior through baptism and take upon us the name of Jesus Christ. We can renew that rebirth each Sabbath when we partake of the sacrament.


Ultimate "salvation"?? Obviously not.



4. For Latter-day Saints we are saved only if we are obedient to the present covenant relationship we have with Jesus Christ.


Hence, NO Mormon can have "***urance" that he possesses salvation because the Mormon "salvation" is CONDITIONED UPON OBEDIENCE.



5. For Latter-day Saints we are saved conditionally according to the individual sinner’s faith,which must be manifested by obedience to the Lord’s command to repent,be baptized,and receive the Holy Ghost.


Therefore, the Mormon can NOT HAVE ***URANCE of salvation because it is CONDITIONAL.



6. For Latter-day Saints we are saved from death through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.


Possibly the ONLY ***urance the Mormon can have: PHYSICAL RESURRECTION, but then again, EVERYONE, Mormon or not's gonna be "resurrected", no??



7. For Latter-day Saints we are saved from the second death (meaning the final spiritual death) by ***urance of a kingdom of glory in the world to come. Specifically it means exaltation or eternal life (see Abraham 2:11) which is sometimes referred to as the “fulness of salvation”


Uh-huh. "Salvation" BY EXALTATION, and yet NO Mormon can affirm he WILL be "exalted", seeing it's ALL conditional upon the individual Mo's OBEDIENCE, etc.


Do you see how you UNDERMINE your position, making it merely LIP-SERVICE, M-dude?? :eek:

[Father_JD]

Again the question remains:

WHY is the pentegram added to by OTHER OCCULTIC SYMBOLS.

Just answer that one, 'k?

[Mesenja]

In the mid 19th century when a French magician Eliphas Levi mistakenly claimed that the inverted pentagram was a symbol for the goat god Baphomet. It was only in the late 20th century that the Church of Satan decided to use it for themselves.

During the lifetime of Joseph Smith the inverted five-pointed star had absolutely no ***ociation with the occult or with Satan. Along with the other symbols on the Salt Lake City Temple it was not an occultic or even a satanic symbol.

You need to stay after cl*** with Shoe_dog and write out on the blackboard a 100 times the sentence "The meaning of symbols can only be defined by the person or group using it."
__________________




Again the question remains:WHY is the pentegram added to by OTHER OCCULTIC SYMBOLS.

Just answer that one, 'k?

[nrajeff]

From what I have read, Eliphas Levi just made up that stuff about the meanings of the star shape, including the idea that it's called the "Goat head of Mendes" or something like that. I dunno about you, but if it's ***ociated with Eva Mendes, can it be all bad?

[Compinche]

From what I have read, Eliphas Levi just made up that stuff about the meanings of the star shape, including the idea that it's called the "Goat head of Mendes" or something like that. I dunno about you, but if it's ***ociated with Eva Mendes, can it be all bad?

Ahahahaha!!!........Eva Mendes. Mmmmm, the devil in disguise, maybe?

[Mesenja]

Sounds both "Biblical and Christian",Mesenja_dude. However it's mere lip-service and I'll show you WHY:

It sounds like you are espousing the Antinomian heresy that Christians are freed from the moral law by virtue of grace as set forth in the gospel. I've also read your post and you have not shown me why my answer to your question has only been giving "mere lip-service".



In this mortal probation all that is asked of me is that I always be a good and faithful servant who has proven ever faithful with a few things;and will one day be put in charge of many things. He has already shown us the way,provided the means necessary and paid the full price. What little he requires of us is not to make up for what he has not done in regards to our salvation. It is asked of us so that we may learn through our own experience how to act like he acts,love how he loves,think like he thinks,in order to be able to share in the Master's happiness.
And where I've emboldened the text is WHERE you show your true colors,Mesenja. Have you ALWAYS been a "good and faithful servant"? In other words,ARE YOU GOOD ENOUGH...NOW ? And then also,"what he REQUIRES OF US" . Have you done EVERYTHING he "requires" of you ? In other words,ARE YOU GOOD ENOUGH...NOW ?

My answer to this question is very simple. No. God does not require of me faultless obedience for salvation. Zachariah and Elizabeth "were righteous in the sight of God,observing all the Lord's commandments and regulations blamelessly." (Luke 1:6) They obeyed God suffiently to be found blameless and considered righteous.


I'm always amazed how LDS can affirm one thing, and literally contradict themselves once they begin to EXPLAIN their position. Sorry,Mesenja, but Russ is right:Are you good enough? :rolleyes:

I have along with everyone else "sinned,and come short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23) All those as Paul said all those who "have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law." (Romans 2:12) However I am "not under the law,but under grace" (Romans 6:14) If I am judged according to that "grace in the eyes of the Lord" (Genesis 6:8) by which the patriarch Noah was judged then my efforts while not measuring up to His divine standards will none the less be acceptable.




No the perennial and penetrating question is the one posed by President Thomas S. Monson.

"Thousands of honest,searching souls continue to be confronted by that penetrating question which coursed through the mind of Joseph Smith as he surveyed the declarations made by the churches of his community concerning who is right and who is wrong. Joseph said:"'In the midst of this war of words and tumult of opinions,I often said to myself:What is to be done? Who of all these parties are right;or,are they all wrong together? If any one of them be right,which is it,and how shall I know it? . . ." 'At length I came to the conclusion that I must either remain in darkness and confusion,or else I must do as James directs,that is,ask of God' (Joseph Smith—History 1:10,13)." He prayed.
Just so you know, Joseph Smith AND Thomas Monson have MISAPPLIED and MISUSED the verse from James. NO WHERE in scripture is one commended to PRAY to know the validity of TRUTH PROPOSITIONS. Hence,any "result" can NOT be trusted via this very fractured epistome. Got it?? :rolleyes:

Jesus taught something completely different from what you are proposing.

John 16:3 Howbeit when he,the Spirit of truth, is come,he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself;but whatsoever he shall hear that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

Luke 11:9 And I say unto you,Ask, and it shall be given you;seek, and ye shall find;knock, and it shall be opened unto you.



...The results of that prayer are best described in Joseph's own words. You know them:"'I saw two Personages,whose brightness and glory defy all description,standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me,calling me by name and said,pointing to the other—This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!' (Joseph Smith—History 1:17)." Joseph listened;Joseph learned. His question had been answered." [Thomas S. Monson,"Great Expectations" address given at Brigham Young University,Jan. 11,2009]
Yadda. The last of 9 VERSIONS. Yawn.

Joseph Smith gave several accounts of the First Vision. If this is supposed to prove that he had no such vision you are mistaken.

The fact that he gave different accounts of the First Vision is no more probematic then there are four different writers of the gospels in the New Testament,each giving varying accounts of the life and mission of Jesus.



And now we'll witness just HOW you EQUIVOCATE the BIBLICAL MEANING OF THE TERM TO MAKE IT MEAN SOMETHING "ELSE":
In your question there is the implication that I do not have any ***urance of my salvation. First let me say that I have salvation.

The scriptures teach something completely different from what you have proposed.

Matthew !9:16 ¶ And,behold,one came and said unto him,Good Master, what good thing shall I do,that I may have eternal life? 17 And he said unto him,Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one,that is,God: but if thou wilt enter into life,keep the commandments.

John 14:15 ¶ If ye love me,keep my commandments.

1 Corinthians 13:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy,and understand all mysteries,and all knowledge;and though I have all faith,so that I could remove mountains,and have not charity,I am nothing.

Galatians 5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing,nor uncircumcision;but faith which worketh by love.

James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified,and not by faith only.

James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also



Before continuing it is necessary that the gospel of Jesus Christ be explained as salvation comes by having obeyed the gospel as "faith cometh by hearing,and hearing by the word of God. " (Romans 10:13-17)
"
The gospel of Jesus Christ is the plan of salvation. It embraces all of the laws,principles, doctrines, rites,ordinances, acts,powers,authorities,and keys necessary to save and exalt men in the highest heaven hereafter. It is the covenant of salvation which the Lord makes with men on earth." [Elder Bruce R. McConkie,Mormon Doctrine]
Good Christian people sometimes attach different meanings to some key gospel terms like saved or salvation. If we answer according to what our questioner probably means in asking if we have been “saved,” our answer must be “yes.” If we answer according to the various meanings we attach to the terms saved or salvation,our answer will be either “yes” or “yes,but with conditions.” [Dallin H. Oaks,“Have You Been Saved?,”Ensign,May 1998,55]
And since there are "conditions",ultimately the Mormon can NOT know he possesses salvation in the BIBLICAL sense.

There is no such thing as having an absolute ***urance of salvation. One can only be confident of one’s present salvation.

Philippians 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ: 7 Even as it is meet for me to think this of you all,because I have you in my heart;inasmuch as both in my bonds,and in the defence and confirmation of the gospel,ye all are partakers of my grace.

2 Corinthians 4:4 For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord.

1 Corinthians 9:27 But I keep under my body,and bring it into subjection:lest that by any means,when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

2 Timothy 4:7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith: 8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness,which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

We also must abide by the condition of enduring to the end if we are to receive salvation.

Matthew 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end,the same shall be saved.

2 Thessalonians 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

1 Peter 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

[Father_JD]

It sounds like you are espousing the Antinomian heresy that Christians are freed from the moral law by virtue of grace as set forth in the gospel. I've also read your post and you have not shown me why my answer to your question has only been giving "mere lip-service".


No, sounds like you're espousing salvation BY WORKS, not understanding that works, or the deeds of the law do NOT justify one in God's sight. You can NOT have ***urance (other than meaning resurrection by the Mormon re-definition of "salvation") of salvation because it IS CONDITIONAL BY YOUR OWN ADMITANCE.




My answer to this question is very simple. No. God does not require of me faultless obedience for salvation. Zachariah and Elizabeth "were righteous in the sight of God, observing all the Lord's commandments and regulations blamelessly." They obeyed God suffiently to be found blameless and considered righteous.


And HOW do you KNOW if you've "obeyed God SUFFICIENTLY", mdude? Clearly, you espouse salvation by works, with a little "faith" thrown in. You do NOT understand the meaning of GRACE, m.




I have along with everyone else "sinned,and come short of the glory of God" All those as Paul said all those who "have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law." However I am "not under the law,but under grace" If I am judged according to that "grace in the eyes of the Lord" by which the patriarch Noah was judged by then my efforts while not measuring up to His divine standards will none the less be acceptable.


Mere lip-service to "under grace", m. You're very much UNDER THE LAW, i.e. MORMON LAW. You don't underwstand that one is NOT SAVED BY ONE'S OWN EFFORTS, but BY GRACE. Therefore, you can NOT have ***urance of salvation, BECAUSE you don't know whether you'l eventually "measure up" to some imaginary standard.




Jesus taught something completely different from what you are proposing.

John 16:3 Howbeit when he,the Spirit of truth, is come,he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself;but whatsoever he shall hear that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

Luke 11:9 And I say unto you,Ask, and it shall be given you;seek, and ye shall find;knock, and it shall be opened unto you.


LOL. Try reading John 16 IN CONTEXT, M. It's NOT a proof-text for praying for doctrinal truth. To WHOM is this addressed? To the disciples. This is a promise that the Spirit would be with the disciples in showing them "things to come" and the truthfulness of these things. It's NOT a carte blanche prescription for "prayer for theological truth".

And look again at your OUT OF CONTEXT citation from Luke:

Luk 11:5 ¶ And he said unto them, Which of you shall have a friend, and shall go unto him at midnight, and say unto him, Friend, lend me three loaves;


Luk 11:6 For a friend of mine in his journey is come to me, and I have nothing to set before him?


Luk 11:7 And he from within shall answer and say, Trouble me not: the door is now shut, and my children are with me in bed; I cannot rise and give thee.


Luk 11:8 I say unto you, Though he will not rise and give him, because he is his friend, yet because of his importunity he will rise and give him as many as he needeth.


Luk 11:9 ¶ And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you.


Luk 11:10 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.


Luk 11:11 If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if [he ask] a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent?


Luk 11:12 Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion?


Luk 11:13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall [your] heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?



The greater context has to do with "asking and receiving" tangible things, but then Jesus adds a spiritual dimension to it about ASKING FOR THE GIFT OF THE HOLY SPIRIT. It's the SPIRIT HIMSELF whom is to be given...NOT some warm-fuzzy feeling affirming some truth proposition that Mormonism might be true.

I can ALWAYS count on Mormons NOT TO READ IN CONTEXT but to superimpose alien, Mormon meaning onto the Biblical text!!! :eek:





Joseph Smith gave several accounts of the First Vision. If this is supposed to prove that he had no such vision you are mistaken.

The fact that he gave different accounts of the First Vision is no more probematic then there are four different writers of the gospels in the New Testament,each giving varying accounts of the life and mission of Jesus.


Sure it's PROBLEMATIC, m. Why? Because ALL versions come from one man, Joseph Smith as opposed to four complementary accounts from FOUR SEPARATE WITNESSES.

Is it possible that you might discern the difference? At least one time? :eek:




The scriptures teach something completely different from what you have proposed.

Matthew !9:16 ¶ And,behold,one came and said unto him,Good Master, what good thing shall I do,that I may have eternal life? 17 And he said unto him,Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one,that is,God: but if thou wilt enter into life,keep the commandments.


Why stop there, M? Oh, I forgot. The context DESTROYS your argument of salvation by works doesn't it??

Mat 19:16 ¶ And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?


Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? [there is] none good but one, [that is], God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.


Mat 19:18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,


Mat 19:19 Honour thy father and [thy] mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.


Mat 19:20 The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?


Mat 19:21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go [and] sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come [and] follow me.


Mat 19:22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.


Mat 19:23 ¶ Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.


Mat 19:24 And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.


Mat 19:25 When his disciples heard [it], they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?


Mat 19:26 But Jesus beheld [them], and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.


Jesus used the rich young man as an object lesson. He thought he could EARN eternal life by "keeping the commandments" and Jesus demonstrates that he couldn't even keep the numero uno commandment: To worship God and NO OTHER while the young man's riches were his god. Verses 25 and 26 clearly demonstrate that one can NOT save himself via works, etc. WITH MEN THIS IS IMPOSSIBLE.

But that doesn't stop you from wresting the scriptures to your own destruction does it??

[Father_JD]

John 14:15 ¶ If ye love me,keep my commandments.


Yes, when one truly loves Jesus, that one WILL keep His commandments, but this isn't a text for "salvation by works", mdude.



1 Corinthians 13:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy,and understand all mysteries,and all knowledge;and though I have all faith,so that I could remove mountains,and have not charity,I am nothing.


Your point?


Galatians 5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing,nor uncircumcision;but faith which worketh by love.


A great verse which destroys Mormon contentions of being saved by "baptism" or any other kind of work or commandment! Thanks.



James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified,and not by faith only.

James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also


Would you pit James against Paul, mdude? That IS your intention, ya know. James is speaking of the KIND of FAITH one has. A justifying faith is known by its FRUIT, i.e. RESULTING IN GOOD WORKS. It's NOT a proof-text for "salvation by works", m. Ya better learn how to READ the Bible in context instead of knee-****ing to p***ages the Mormon Church tells you what they mean.




There is no such thing as having an absolute ***urance of salvation. One can only be confident of one’s present salvation.

Philippians 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ


Paul is certain that God who began "a good work" in the individual believers hear WILL PERFORM IT until Jesus returns. A great verse for "Preservation of the Saints". Thanks once again for citing a p***age which actually CONTRADICTS your position.



[QUOTE]7 [/B] Even as it is meet for me to think this of you all,because I have you in my heart;inasmuch as both in my bonds,and in the defence and confirmation of the gospel,ye all are partakers of my grace.


Your point?



2 Corinthians 4:4 For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord.

Care to give a correct reference so I can destroy your ***ertion?




1 Corinthians 9:27 But I keep under my body,and bring it into subjection:lest that by any means,when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.


Once again, I leave the context to destroy your out-of-context wrongful conclusion:

1Cr 9:16 For though I preach the gospel, I have nothing to glory of: for necessity is laid upon me; yea, woe is unto me, if I preach not the gospel!


1Cr 9:17 For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation [of the gospel] is committed unto me.


1Cr 9:18 What is my reward then? [Verily] that, when I preach the gospel, I may make the gospel of Christ without charge, that I abuse not my power in the gospel.


1Cr 9:19 ¶ For though I be free from all [men], yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more.


1Cr 9:20 And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;


1Cr 9:21 To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.


1Cr 9:22 To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all [men], that I might by all means save some.


1Cr 9:23 And this I do for the gospel's sake, that I might be partaker thereof with [you].


1Cr 9:24 ¶ Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.


1Cr 9:25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they [do it] to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.


1Cr 9:26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air:


1Cr 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring [it] into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.


Lest by any means, Paul becomes a "castaway" REGARDING HIS MINISTRY IN PREACHING THE GOSPEL.

Geeze. I wish you guys would learn how to read!!



[2 Timothy 4:7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith: 8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness,which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.


Your point? It doesn't teach one can lose his salvation, dude.



We also must abide by the condition of enduring to the end if we are to receive salvation.

Matthew 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end,the same shall be saved.

2 Thessalonians 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

1 Peter 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?


And just WHO "endures to the end", dude? Those who are regenerate believers in the Biblical Christ. The p***age is DESCRIPTIVE NOT PRESCRIPTIVE.

But you must always wrest scripture in order to make it conform to Mormonism, huh? :rolleyes:

[nrajeff]

Yes, when one truly loves Jesus, that one WILL keep His commandments,
---Then tell me how many people currently living truly love Jesus, FJD.
a) Lots and lots
b) none
c) other answer that you will explain



BTW, I though this was the thread on whether the presence of stars on a church building prove that the church in question is satanic. Are we still on-topic?

[Mesenja]

1. The symbol of the Trinity Triangle is it Voodoo?

2. The symbol of Hand Grips in Christ’s resurrection is it Masonic?

3.The Medical Symbol of the snake coiled around a winged staff is it Skull & Bones?

4. The symbol of the Horn Hand is Christ a heavy metal rocker?

5. The symbol of the Eye in Triangle are Christians Illuminati?

6. The symbol of the Jesus Fish is it pagan?

7. The symbol of the Inverted Cross is the apostle Peter a satanist?

8.The symbol of the Pentagram are Boy Scouts satanists?

[nrajeff]

1. The symbol of the Trinity Triangle: is it Voodoo?

2. The symbol of Hand Grips in Christ’s resurrection: is it Masonic?

3.The Medical Symbol of the snake coiled around a winged staff: is it Skull & Bones?

4. The symbol of the Horn Hand: is Christ a heavy metal rocker?

5. The symbol of the Eye in Triangle: are Christians Illuminati?

6. The symbol of the Jesus Fish: is it pagan?

7. The symbol of the Inverted Cross: is the apostle Peter a satanist?

8.The symbol of the Pentagram: are Boy Scouts satanists?

----Shoe Dog said the answer to number 8 is "yes," but I haven't seen Teacher Russ give any answers. Is it possible that he doesn't know much about historical Christianity, even though he claims to be part of it? Maybe ATTENDING some cl***es, to learn about his own religion, should be a higher priority than TEACHING cl***es attacking other people's beliefs. After all, eternal life is knowing God and the Son whom He sent---not knowing how to type talking points that ridicule other people's beliefs.

Scene on Judgment Day

God: Russ, it's time to decide whether I should give you eternal life. What did you do during your time on Planet Earth?
Russ: Well, I mocked lots of LDS people and their leaders and beliefs. Is that worth a lot of points?
God: Not so much, Russ. A better use of your time would have been learning about Me and My Son, and using what you learned to become like Us.
Russ: Oh. Are re-dos allowed? Judgment Day is not too late, right? Is there some makeup work I could do for extra credit? I could go mock some OTHER groups, if you want.
God: It seems you just don't get what was important in life. Do you like warm weather--extremely warm, to be exact?

[Mesenja]

http://home.kxan.com/nationalchampiontexaslonghorns/photos/photo12.jpg


William Mack Brown (born August 27,1951) the head coach of The University of Texas at Austin Longhorn football team is shown flashing the devil horn sign.

[Mesenja]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/62/Boof_Bonser_2_crop.jpg/403px-Boof_Bonser_2_crop.jpg


Minnesota Twins pitcher Boof Bonser using the devil horn sign to show his allegiance to Satan.

[James Banta]

First you said that Masons used the pentagram as a part of their secret ceremony and many of them have the same design on their aprons.
Then when you are pressed to provide any evidence of your claim you back down and ask me if it makes any difference.
What I said was that the use of a pentagram or five-pointed star in some Grand Lodge seals and banners as well as on the collar of office worn by the Masters of lodges and Grand Masters of Grand Lodges is strictly ornamental in nature. Once again you are proven wrong.

I am not a mason are you? I have been told by the one I do know that there is nothing that is strictly ornamental about any symbol they use.. He is the same person that told me that these symbols are on their aprons.. He said the apron has no set style , no required or banded symbols.. He told me Yes he has seen some with such a decoration.. IHS jim

[Mesenja]

Cross of Christ

http:///www.roadtobetterliving.com/images/HomePage/PeaceSign/Peace1a.gif



Satanic Cross

http://www.imosh.com/NECKLACES/images/SSN363%20PR.jpg



http://www.theforbiddenknowledge.com/hardtruth/inverted.jpg

[Father_JD]

http://home.kxan.com/nationalchampiontexaslonghorns/photos/photo12.jpg


William Mack Brown (born August 27,1951) the head coach of The University of Texas at Austin Longhorn football team is shown flashing the devil horn sign.

LOL. My older daughter is a graduate of UT, and my younger daughter is a Senior there right now...

Again, M-dude...what's GERMANE is to the INTENDED MEANING:

In this case it means for the University of Texas Longhorns to WIN the game by "locking horns".

[Father_JD]

---Then tell me how many people currently living truly love Jesus, FJD.
a) Lots and lots
b) none
c) other answer that you will explain

No doubt it's in the MILLIONS, jeff...but WHY do you always seek some kind of identifiable, exact NUMBER?? :confused:



BTW, I though this was the thread on whether the presence of stars on a church building prove that the church in question is satanic. Are we still on-topic?

Well, my own thread of "Is the Mormon Deity Omnisicient" has taken some wild turns. No thread remains "pure". ;)

[Mesenja]

http:///img1.ifilmpro.com/blog//1/3/8/7/1387323/200903/1236983669791.jpg


Ronnie James Dio making the Devil Horn Sign.



http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_AF3xLU1yeiE/SwflSFu1buI/AAAAAAAAFBI/uC3Z3060ZzM/s1600/christ_as_king.jpg

From the Jack Palance Collection (yeah that Jack Palance)

[nrajeff]

Stop the presses, it appears that one of your intrepid members of the Ministry of Extremist Whistle****ers- or MEOW for short--has uncovered an actual video of Satan, and apparently he is LDS! Who knew? (Somehow Methodist Hillary Clinton is involved as well, for reasons that are unclear, but hey, it slanders the LDS so it must all be true, right?)

Impeccable sources and top-notch scholarship! ENJOY!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZG0c54V9dCI&NR=1&feature=fvwp

[nrajeff]

No doubt it's in the MILLIONS, jeff...


---But the BIBLE says that if a person truly loves Jesus, that person will keep His commandments. Are you saying that millions of people are keeping His commandments?


Well, my own thread of "Is the Mormon Deity Omnisicient" has taken some wild turns. No thread remains "pure".
----"There are no threads that remain good, no not one....if we say a thread is without diversions and digressions, we are a liar and the truth is not in us." :)

[James Banta]

---But the BIBLE says that if a person truly loves Jesus, that person will keep His commandments. Are you saying that millions of people are keeping His commandments?


----"There are no threads that remain good, no not one....if we say a thread is without diversions and digressions, we are a liar and the truth is not in us." :)

And since that is true and that Jesus said:

John 13:34-35 (NAS)
"A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another.
" By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another."
In that you will find the full commandments of Jesus.. Is this what you have or is it that you have love for your church.. Nothing but a corporation under the laws of state.. IHS jim

[Father_JD]

---But the BIBLE says that if a person truly loves Jesus, that person will keep His commandments. Are you saying that millions of people are keeping His commandments?

Of course!! You're betraying quite a bit of hubris here, jeff. :rolleyes:



----"There are no threads that remain good, no not one....if we say a thread is without diversions and digressions, we are a liar and the truth is not in us." :)

Good 'un. :D

[nrajeff]

Of course!! You're betraying quite a bit of hubris here, jeff.
----Hubris? I am just trying to reconcile your claim that there are millions of people who are keeping Jesus' commandments, with Russ and co.'s claim that there isn't ANYONE who is doing good, 'cause it's impossible for anyone to keep Jesus' commandments. (Look up all the times Russ asked "Why aren't you keeping the commandments yet?")

[Mesenja]

The symbol of the illuminati FreeMasons and the New world order is the All seeing eye and the pyramid.




http://trcs.wikispaces.com/file/view/mi5.jpg/42970383/mi5.jpg



http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n8/dynamite2367/Killuminati/cbs-1.jpg



http://www.businessweek.com/the_thread/brandnewday/archives/aol.jpg



The Capstone at the Denver airport has the the FreeMason’s Square and Comp***. The airport is referred to as the New World Airport.


http://www.theforbiddenknowledge.com/hardtruth/capston2.jpg

[Father_JD]

You are aware that both JS and BY were FREEMASONS, don't you?

Heck, that's where you got your "its sacred, not secret" ceremonies.

[Father_JD]

----Hubris? I am just trying to reconcile your claim that there are millions of people who are keeping Jesus' commandments, with Russ and co.'s claim that there isn't ANYONE who is doing good, 'cause it's impossible for anyone to keep Jesus' commandments. (Look up all the times Russ asked "Why aren't you keeping the commandments yet?")


Because of SIN, no one can possibly keep "all commandments", jeff. The question you asked was how many "keep Jesus' commandments".

Christians endeavor to keep ALL, but we know it's impossible until we're either dead or raptured.

Thanks for the explanation...I shoulda known! ;)

[Father_JD]

What about the OTHER OCCULTIC SYMBOLS ON THE LDS TEMPLES???????

[nrajeff]

Because of SIN, no one can possibly keep "all commandments", jeff. The question you asked was how many "keep Jesus' commandments".
Christians endeavor to keep ALL, but we know it's impossible until we're either dead or raptured.

---But if there are people keeping SOME or MOST of the commandments, then aren't those people DOING GOOD? Doesn't a person do good to the extent that he keeps the commandments? So then explain the real, intended meaning
of "There are NONE that doeth good." Explain it for Russ and his buds. To paraphrase BTO, "They need educated."

[Father_JD]

---But if there are people keeping SOME or MOST of the commandments, then aren't those people DOING GOOD? Doesn't a person do good to the extent that he keeps the commandments? So then explain the real, intended meaning
of "There are NONE that doeth good." Explain it for Russ and his buds. To paraphrase BTO, "They need educated."


"There is NONE that doeth good" refers to UNREGENERATE, FALLEN HUMANITY, jeff. Our "natural state" BEFORE regeneration in Christ.

Hope that clears that one up! :D

[Mesenja]

You are aware that both Joseph Smith and Brigham Young were FREEMASONS,don't you? Heck,that's where you got your "its sacred,not secret" ceremonies.



The Freemason Illuminati Takeover (http://www.waltermartin.com/forums/showthread.php?p=46178#poststop) or that "the intrepid members of the Ministry of Extremist Whistle ****ers-or MEOW for short--has uncovered an actual video of Satan (http:///www.waltermartin.com/forums/showthread.php?p=46086#post46086)" who is involved in this plot?

[Mesenja]

What about the OTHER OCCULTIC SYMBOLS ON THE LDS TEMPLES?






When you start your laundry list of purported similarities please tell us how the symbols are in any way connected either logically or causally or by shared characteristics to each other. And for the sake of fairness don't forget to mention the possibility that they might be related to a third party such as the Bible.

[nrajeff]

"There is NONE that doeth good" refers to UNREGENERATE, FALLEN HUMANITY, jeff. Our "natural state" BEFORE regeneration in Christ.Hope that clears that one up! :D


-----It seems like a good explanation to me, but I think a lot of your "must take it literally" buddies in the EEM (extremist evangelical movement) will cry "Blasphemy" if you try to tell them that there actually ARE people doing good--you know, the folks who are spouting the "filthy rags" mantra every 10 seconds..

[Father_JD]

-----It seems like a good explanation to me, but I think a lot of your "must take it literally" buddies in the EEM (extremist evangelical movement) will cry "Blasphemy" if you try to tell them that there actually ARE people doing good--you know, the folks who are spouting the "filthy rags" mantra every 10 seconds..



Our works ARE as "filthy rags" in that they can't get one into heaven, jeff, but that doesn't negate doing "good works" in faith.

[Father_JD]

The Freemason Illuminati Takeover (http://www.waltermartin.com/forums/showthread.php?p=46178#poststop) or that "the intrepid members of the Ministry of Extremist Whistle ****ers-or MEOW for short--has uncovered an actual video of Satan (http:///www.waltermartin.com/forums/showthread.php?p=46086#post46086)" who is involved in this plot?

It PROVES the occultic ORIGIN of Mormonism. Duh. :rolleyes:

[Father_JD]

Uh, the big "sun face" is NOT CHRISTIAN.

Hey, check this out:


http://www.mazeministry.com/resources/books/doombook/doomtext/20architecture.htm

[Mesenja]

Uh,the big "sun face" is NOT CHRISTIAN. Hey,check this out:http://www.mazeministry.com/resources/books/doombook/doomtext/20architecture.htm




I am aware that the SUN FACE was worshipped in Babylonian,Egyptian,Greek,Roman,and other major civilizations of history as a life-giving deity and usually reigned over a pantheon of lesser gods. However weren't you the one asking me "Again,the question remains as to MOTIVE,Mesenja dude."? (http://www.waltermartin.com/forums/showthread.php?p=45248&mode=threaded#post45248)

[Father_JD]

I am aware that the SUN FACE was worshipped in Babylonian,Egyptian,Greek,Roman,and other major civilizations of history as a life-giving deity and usually reigned over a pantheon of lesser gods. However weren't you the one asking me "Again,the question remains as to MOTIVE,Mesenja dude."? (http://www.waltermartin.com/forums/showthread.php?p=45248&mode=threaded#post45248)

Yes, and the question is to the MOTIVE of early Mormon leaders as to WHY the addition of OCCULTIC SYMBOLS.

This seems lost on you. :rolleyes:

[Mesenja]

Yes,and the question is to the MOTIVE of early Mormon leaders as to WHY the addition of OCCULTIC SYMBOLS. This seems lost on you. :rolleyes:





I clearly see your hypocritical position when you argue that the symbols in question when used on Latter-day Saint temples have some occultic and even satanic meaning yet when it is used by other Christians it's meaning is benign.

You have shown this by defending the use of pentagram as it was "being used by Christians especially several hundred years ago" yet question what "were the MOTIVES as to WHY it's on Mormon temples" given what you say is "the clear Mormon connection to FREEMASONRY".

[nrajeff]

Our works ARE as "filthy rags" in that they can't get one into heaven, jeff, but that doesn't negate doing "good works" in faith.

---Um, so your position is that Christians are commanded to do filthy rags? Seems a bit contradictory.

And BTW, speaking of contradictions: How much sense does it make to accuse the LDS of creating a clever counterfeit of Christianity, and at the same time accuse them of blatantly incorporating satanic symbols into their iconography? How can we be copying you guys, and also using stuff that is obviuosly the an***hesis of Christianity? Hellooooooo....

[Father_JD]

---Um, so your position is that Christians are commanded to do filthy rags? Seems a bit contradictory.

Read the context, jeff. "Commandment keeping" does NOT MERIT SALVATION. In that sense, ALL our "works" are as FILTHY RAGS. There's NO contradiction at all.


And BTW, speaking of contradictions: How much sense does it make to accuse the LDS of creating a clever counterfeit of Christianity, and at the same time accuse them of blatantly incorporating satanic symbols into their iconography? How can we be copying you guys, and also using stuff that is obviuosly the an***hesis of Christianity? Hellooooooo....

Counterfeits can go only so far, jeff. No one would think of printing a 20 dollar bill with Bill Clinton's face on it, now would they? But the "earmarks" of counterfeits are clearly visible to those who have been trained to discern.

I think it's not co-incidental that the "cross" is notably ABSENT from all Mormon "iconography" and yet the CROSS is mentioned over 100 times in the NT as to WHERE redemption occurred. :rolleyes:

[Father_JD]

In all fairness, one or two of what's NOW considered "occultic" symbols were used by Christians in ages past.

The question still remains as to SYMBOLS THAT HAVE ALWAYS BEEN CONSIDERED OCCULTIC USED ON MORMON TEMPLES.

[nrajeff]

Read the context, jeff. "Commandment keeping" does NOT MERIT SALVATION. In that sense, ALL our "works" are as FILTHY RAGS. There's NO contradiction at all.


--You Calvinists sure blew it in the exegesis dept. It's the works of THE LAW--i.e., the legalistic, superficial rules of the TORAH--that were being referred to there. NOWHERE in the NT can you find Jesus issuing some blanket dismissal of the importance--including the eternal life-related importance--of OBEYING HIS COMMANDMENTS.

In fact, you can find (well, I can find them, not sure about you) MULTIPLE verses that mention obedience as being a condition for eternal life.

[Russ]

--You Calvinists sure blew it in the exegesis dept. It's the works of THE LAW--i.e., the legalistic, superficial rules of the TORAH--that were being referred to there. NOWHERE in the NT can you find Jesus issuing some blanket dismissal of the importance--including the eternal life-related importance--of OBEYING HIS COMMANDMENTS.

In fact, you can find (well, I can find them, not sure about you) MULTIPLE verses that mention obedience as being a condition for eternal life.


Are you good enough? Yet?

[James Banta]

--You Calvinists sure blew it in the exegesis dept. It's the works of THE LAW--i.e., the legalistic, superficial rules of the TORAH--that were being referred to there. NOWHERE in the NT can you find Jesus issuing some blanket dismissal of the importance--including the eternal life-related importance--of OBEYING HIS COMMANDMENTS.

In fact, you can find (well, I can find them, not sure about you) MULTIPLE verses that mention obedience as being a condition for eternal life.

Can't you look into your own heart and see the true about you that which was so clear to the prophet Isaiah?

Isaiah 6:5
Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts.
He made it clear that he wasn't the only one who is filled with sin or how we can get rid of it...

Isaiah 53:6
All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
How can you say that anytime Jesus told us to obey Him it wasn't to love and believe? That was always in His words.. We become worthy by loving and believing Him.. If it was by Law then Law would be our judge and we would all die.. IHS jim

[nrajeff]

Are you good enough? Yet?

Is it Judgment Day? Yet? (I don't mean "judgmentalism day"---which you obviously think it already is.)

[nrajeff]

Can't you look into your own heart and see the true about you that which was so clear to the prophet Isaiah?

Isaiah 6:5
Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts.
He made it clear that he wasn't the only one who is filled with sin or how we can get rid of it...

How can you say that anytime Jesus told us to obey Him it wasn't to love and believe? That was always in His words.. We become worthy by loving and believing Him.. If it was by Law then Law would be our judge and we would all die.. IHS jim

---Jim, if ANY of your post was supposed to be proving what I said to be wrong or false, it went right over my head. Because I saw nothing in what you said that refutes any of my point. There is a Bible verse that says that fearing God and keeping His commandments is the whole duty of man. Seems like God places more importance on us obeying Him, than we put on it. I wonder whether we are right to downgrade its importance.

[Father_JD]

--You Calvinists sure blew it in the exegesis dept. It's the works of THE LAW--i.e., the legalistic, superficial rules of the TORAH--that were being referred to there. NOWHERE in the NT can you find Jesus issuing some blanket dismissal of the importance--including the eternal life-related importance--of OBEYING HIS COMMANDMENTS.

In fact, you can find (well, I can find them, not sure about you) MULTIPLE verses that mention obedience as being a condition for eternal life.

Have at it jeff. I KNOW the Mormon "proof-texts" for this and I'll be more than happy to disabuse you of the notion that commandments somehow merit eternal life BY THE CONTEXT. ;)

[Father_JD]

Is it Judgment Day? Yet? (I don't mean "judgmentalism day"---which you obviously think it already is.)

Does this MEAN you think you'll be "good enough" on Judgment Day, jeff? :confused:

[Father_JD]

No one said that it wasn't our "duty", jeff. But you're eisegeting these p***ages to mean COMMANDMENT KEEPING MERITS ETERNAL LIFE.

Sorry, but it's by GRACE.

[Mesenja]

The fallacy committed when an argument mistakenly attempts to establish a causal connection.


It PROVES the occultic ORIGIN of Mormonism. Duh. :rolleyes:

The meaning of symbols can only be defined by the person or group using it.

[Father_JD]

The fallacy committed when an argument mistakenly attempts to establish a causal connection.



The meaning of symbols can only be defined by the person or group using it.

Yeh. And JS, BY were FREE MASONS who also to this day ENGAGE IN OCCULTIC ACTIVITIES. :rolleyes:

You wanna "causal connection"???

JS and BY were MASONS, they CAUSED FREEMASON RITES TO BE BORROWED AND INDUCTED FOR MORMON USE.

Like that, M??

[nrajeff]

Oooh, the Free Masons. Scary. George Washington. Louis Armstrong. Gene Autry. Count Basie. Davey Crockett. Lionel Hampton. Audie Murphy. Paul Revere. Mark Twain.

Yep, they're the bad guys, all right.

[Father_JD]

Oooh, the Free Masons. Scary. George Washington. Louis Armstrong. Gene Autry. Count Basie. Davey Crockett. Lionel Hampton. Audie Murphy. Paul Revere. Mark Twain.

Yep, they're the bad guys, all right.

Nope. Just involved with OCCULTIC RITES like your boys Joe and Brig! :D

[Mesenja]

You are quite wrong in your belief in total depravity as spelled out by the Westminster Confession of Faith which states “Man, by his fall Into a state of sin,hath wholly lost all ability of will to any spiritual good accompanying salvation;so as a natural man,being altogether averse from good and dead in sin,is not able,by his own strength,to convert himself or to prepare himself thereunto.”




"There is NONE that doeth good" refers to UNREGENERATE,FALLEN HUMANITY,Jeff. Our "natural state" BEFORE regeneration in Christ.

Hope that clears that one up!



The prophet Isaiah states that people who know righteousness are people in whose heart is the law of God.


7 Listen to me,you that know righteousness,the people in whose heart is My [God's] law;fear you not the reproach of men,neither be you afraid of their reviling. Isaiah 51:7

They are those who follow after righteousness by seeking the Lord and whose example is that of the patriarch Abraham.


1 Listen to me,you that follow after righteousness,you that seek the LORD:look to the rock from where you are hewn,and to the hole of the pit from where you are dig. 2 Look to Abraham your father and to Sarah that bore you:for I called him alone,and blessed him,and increased him. Isaiah 51:1-2

Paul said that Abraham had his own righteousness through "Faith" in God's promises.



Even as Abraham believed God,and it was accounted to him for righteousness. Galatians 3:6

James asked was not Abraham made righteous when he offered up his son Isaac on the alter and answers his own question in the affirmative.


21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works,when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar 22 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith,Abraham believed God,and it was imputed unto him for righteousness:and he was called the Friend of God. James 2:23

Paul said that Abraham not only was the father or mentor to the circumcision but also to those who follow in his footsteps or example of faith.



And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only,but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham,which he had being yet uncircumcised. Romans 4:12


Peter clarified this directive of following in the footsteps of faith by explaining that what it meant was to follow in the example that Christ left behind.


For even hereunto were ye called:because Christ also suffered for us,leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: 1 Peter 2:21



Those who fear God which is having the law written in their hearts will be righteous still at the return of Jesus Christ receiving the reward of salvation.



He that is unjust,let him be unjust still:and he which is filthy,let him be filthy still:and he that is righteous,let him be righteous still:and he that is holy,let him be holy still. 12 And,behold,I come quickly;and my reward is with me,to give every man according as his work shall be. 13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end,the first and the last. Revelation 22:11-13


Paul quotes from the first three verses of Psalm 14 making the contrast between those who seek after God and those who do not.



1 The fool has said in his heart,There is no God. They are corrupt,they have done abominable works,there is none that does good. 2 The LORD looked down from heaven on the children of men,to see if there were any that did understand,and seek God. 3 They are all gone aside,they are all together become filthy:there is none that does good,no,not one. Psalm 14:1-3


10 As it is written,There is none righteous,no,not one: 11 There is none that understands,there is none that seeks after God. 12 They are all gone out of the way,they are together become unprofitable;there is none that does good,no,not one. Romans 3:10-12

Paul then accused both Jew and Gentile of being under the penalty of sin and held accountable to God.


19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:Romans 3:19,22



1 Lord,who shall abide in your tabernacle? who shall dwell in your holy hill? 2 He that walks uprightly,and works righteousness,and speaks the truth in his heart. 3 He that backbites not with his tongue,nor does evil to his neighbor,nor takes up a reproach against his neighbor. 4 In whose eyes a vile person is contemned;but he honors them that fear the LORD. He that swears to his own hurt,and changes not. 5 He that puts not out his money to usury,nor takes reward against the innocent. He that does these things shall never be moved. Psalm 15:1-4

[urloony]

Don't forget the Republican party
http://www.rso.cornell.edu/progressive/pics/stock_Republican-elephant.gif

[Father_JD]

Paul does NOT say that Abraham had "righteousness" of his own. It was IMPUTED. It was "accounted unto him".

The people who "know" righteousness are (and can only be as such) the REGENERATE BELIEVERS in the Jesus of the Bible, i.e. Lucifer's CREATOR, not the phony JS version of Lucifer's "spirit brother"

[Sentinus]

Oooh, the Free Masons. Scary. George Washington. Louis Armstrong. Gene Autry. Count Basie. Davey Crockett. Lionel Hampton. Audie Murphy. Paul Revere. Mark Twain.

Yep, they're the bad guys, all right.

What makes them "good" (Not bad)??

[Mesenja]

What makes them "good" (Not bad)?




Is there any valid proof from a single reputable source to make anyone think differently?

[Mesenja]

Nope. Just involved with OCCULT RITES like your boys Joe and Brigham!

:D



Perhaps you need to raise the alarm that in court when we give testimony and the bailiff who brings out a Bible asking you to put your hand on it and raise your other hand to the square that this originated from a Masonic rite. This is the sign of the Fellowcraft Degree to show that you were a Fellowcraft Mason or a Fellowcraft. In England during the Middle Ages only those who were Freeborn or a person not subservient to another could give testimony . Those who were called in Masonry an Entered Apprentice were in apprenticeship or subservient to another.

[Mesenja]

Paul does NOT say that Abraham had "righteousness" of his own. It was IMPUTED. It was "accounted unto him".

The people who "know" righteousness are (and can only be as such) the REGENERATE BELIEVERS in the Jesus of the Bible, i.e. Lucifer's CREATOR,not the phony Joseph Smith version of Lucifer's "spirit brother"


Paul said that God recognized Abraham’s demonstration of faith as righteousness.


Romans 4:5 (King James Version)

5 But to him that worketh not,but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly,his faith is counted for righteousness.

[akaSeerone]

Paul said that God recognized Abraham’s demonstration of faith as righteousness.

Romans 4:5 (King James Version)

5 But to him that worketh not,but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly,his faith is counted for righteousness.

That verse didn't have a thing to do with what you said, so why did you use it to try to make your point? And in fact it refutes your point.

Abraham was righteous before God before he demonstrated his act of Faith. It didn't take offering up Issac for Abraham to become righteous, that would make it a works based righteousness like in mormonism.

Andy

[Father_JD]

You'd better learn what Paul MEANS by, "counted".

[Father_JD]

Pfft. This is nothing more than typical Mormon deflection away from your occultic boys, Joe and Brig, M-dude.

[Mesenja]

You'd better learn what Paul MEANS by, "counted".



It comes from the Greek verb logizomai and is translated as,"reckoned,credited',accepted,counted,considered. The lexical definition carries several meanings as well:reckon,calculate,take into account,put on someone's account,estimate,evaluate,look upon as,consider,think,dwell on,believe,be of the opinion of."

[Mesenja]

Pfft. This is nothing more than typical Mormon deflection away from your occultic boys,Joe and Brigham, Mesenja-dude.


It only highlights your accusation as having no merit. You keep committing the same fallacy of False Cause by repeatedly making the attempt at establishing a causal connection which is not there.

[Father_JD]

It only highlights your accusation as having no merit. You keep committing the same fallacy of False Cause by repeatedly making the attempt at establishing a causal connection which is not there.

Free Masonry is clearly "occultic". Your boys Joe and Brig were Masons. They were engaged in occultic activity. They brought Masonic occultism into Mormonism, cf the Secret-but-not-sacred Mormon temple ceremony. :rolleyes:

[nrajeff]

Free Masonry is clearly "occultic". Your boys Joe and Brig were Masons. They were engaged in occultic activity. They brought Masonic occultism into Mormonism, cf the Secret-but-not-sacred Mormon temple ceremony. :rolleyes:
--By your own logic, Early Christianity was clearly occultic. Can you deal with that, or is the cog dis gonna bother you?

[Mesenja]

On January 19,1841,Joseph Smith recorded a revelation concerning the need for a temple in Nauvoo and of ritual elements that would eventually be practiced inside of the Nauvoo Temple. (see The Lord Speaks Again:Ancient Temple Patterns in D&C 124 (http:////www.templestudy.com/2009/09/27/lord-speaks-ancient-temple-patterns-dc-124/) and D&C 124:28-42 (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/search?type=references&last=D%26C+124%3A27-42&help=&ro=checked&search=D%26C+124%3A28-42&do=Search&show=%0D%0A%0D%0A)) Joseph Smith became a Mason in March 1842.

[Father_JD]

On January 19,1841,Joseph Smith recorded a revelation concerning the need for a temple in Nauvoo and of ritual elements that would eventually be practiced inside of the Nauvoo Temple. (see The Lord Speaks Again:Ancient Temple Patterns in D&C 124 (http:////www.templestudy.com/2009/09/27/lord-speaks-ancient-temple-patterns-dc-124/) and D&C 124:28-42 (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/search?type=references&last=D%26C+124%3A27-42&help=&ro=checked&search=D%26C+124%3A28-42&do=Search&show=%0D%0A%0D%0A)) Joseph Smith became a Mason in March 1842.

It just wouldnt occur to you that JS already knew the super duper secrets of Masonry huh?

[Father_JD]

--By your own logic, Early Christianity was clearly occultic. Can you deal with that, or is the cog dis gonna bother you?

Well jeff how about giving a specific WHY you would say this? :rolleyes:

[Mesenja]

It just wouldn't occur to you that Joseph Smith already knew the super duper secrets of Masonry huh?


Besides that it did not occur to you that the particular Temple ordinances in question have nothing to do with the Masonic rites huh?

[nrajeff]

Well jeff how about giving a specific WHY you would say this? :rolleyes:

---Simple. Check it out:

1. Early Christianity believed that members could summon the recently-dead founder and he would come to them---all it took, was two or three of them gathered to do the summoning. Necromancy--occultic.

2. They believed that by eating the flesh and drinking the blood of their god, they could be infused with that god's holiness, etc. Clearly occultic.

3. They believed that their god caused dead corpses to arise from their graves and walk the streets of Jerusalem. Right out of the Zombie Voodoo Handbook, and clearly occultic.

Gee, FJD, are you sure you want to be a part of a religion that is so clearly occultic by your logic?

[Father_JD]

Cmon jeff. I believe you well know how youve perverted BIBLICAL TRUTH and brought it down to the level of occultic Mormonism.

Christianity is indeed a religion of the supernatural...NOT the occult as Mormonism clearly is:

Had any dead grandmas show up at night to testify to the supposed truth of Mormonism lately?

[Father_JD]

Besides that it did not occur to you that the particular Temple ordinances in question have nothing to do with the Masonic rites huh?

Clearly you must be clueless as to just how close the secret temple rites are to Masonic ones, M.

[Father_JD]

It comes from the Greek verb logizomai and is translated as,"reckoned,credited',accepted,counted,considered. The lexical definition carries several meanings as well:reckon,calculate,take into account,put on someone's account,estimate,evaluate,look upon as,consider,think,dwell on,believe,be of the opinion of."

Excellent! Then WHY dont you believe him? WHY dont you believe that Abrahams faith/belief was CREDITED to him as righteousness? :eek:

[Mesenja]

God recognized and viewed Abraham's faith as righteousness and had not "credited" Abraham the alien righteousness of Christ

The Greek verb logizomai does not most often refer to what a person is not,or does not have,but is merely considered to be yet is not so in reality. Most often it is a mental representation of the reality of what is recognized or understood in what they are witnessing.

[Father_JD]

God recognized and viewed Abraham's faith as righteousness not "credited" Abraham the alien righteousness of Christ

The Greek verb logizomai does not most often refer to what a person is not,or does not have,but is merely considered to be yet is not so in reality. Most often it is a mental representation of the reality of what is recognized or understood in what they are witnessing.

Clearly you dont know your Bible, M. I challenge you to look for those Bible verses in which the English word IMPUTED is used. ;)

Voila...here they are

Rom 4:11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which [he had yet] being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:
Rom 4:22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.
Rom 4:23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;
Rom 4:24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Jam 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.


And besides this, Isaiah has answered you: OUR righteousness is as FILTHY RAGS. Think on that.

[nrajeff]

[QUOTE=Father_JD;64905]
....Rom 4:22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.
Rom 4:23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;
Rom 4:24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
QUOTE]

------Uh-oh--the Bible refutes Calvinism twice in one verse! And you are the one who brought it to our attention!

1. The "SHALL BE imputed" part means that for "us" Christians, that imputation is a future thing. But doesn't Calvinism teach that the imputation should have ALREADY occurred, BEFORE the person became a Christian? (In this case, Paul was writing to the saints in Rome, right?)

Doesn't the Calvnist order of events go something like this:

God regenerates person, causing person to be born again

God saves person via unmerited, unconditionally given grace

God causes person to receive unmerited, unconditionally given gift of faith, which causes God's righteousness to be imputed to person

Person becomes a Christian and starts obeying God's will--something the person was totally unable to do before being regenerated, given salvation, grace and faith.

2. The verse says that righteousness will be imputed to the saints in Rome IF those saints believe on the Father of Jesus. If they were already saints, shouldn't the imputation have already occurred?

Oops.

[Father_JD]

BZZZZZ! Wrong, jeff.

So-called Calvinism does NOT teach that. Wanna try again?

[nrajeff]

OK, let's suppose that Calvinism doesn't teach it but YOU DO. Is that better?

Just point out the errors in logic or fact in my post.

1. The "SHALL BE imputed" part means that for "us" Christians, that imputation is a future thing. But doesn't FJDism teach that the imputation should have ALREADY occurred, BEFORE the person became a Christian? (In this case, Paul was writing to the saints in Rome, right?)

Doesn't the FJDist order of events go something like this:

God regenerates person, causing person to be born again

God saves person via unmerited, unconditionally given grace

God causes person to receive unmerited, unconditionally given gift of faith, which causes God's righteousness to be imputed to person

Person becomes a Christian and starts obeying God's will--something the person was totally unable to do before being regenerated, given salvation, grace and faith.

2. The verse says that righteousness will be imputed to the saints in Rome IF those saints believe on the Father of Jesus. If they were already saints, shouldn't the imputation have already occurred?

[Father_JD]

Nope. Imputation of the alien righteousness of Christ is imputed AFTERWARDS even though it is God who enables the person to HAVE faith.

Salvation is MONERGISTIC and NOT synergistic...

[Mesenja]

Nope. Imputation of the alien righteousness of Christ is imputed AFTERWARDS even though it is God who enables the person to HAVE faith.

Salvation is MONERGISTIC and NOT synergistic.


Salvation is not guaranteed if Paul warns the saints at Corinth that it is possible to receive the grace of God in vain. However it would be guaranteed if according to Reformed doctrine they first received an imputed,alien righteousness of Christ. It would also make faith unnecessary since at this point in time they were/are already saved.

Paul would also be making no sense in warning them to "receive not the grace of God in vain" and be guilty of teaching false doctrine by saying that they are "workers together with him."


2 Corinthians 6:1-2
1 We then,as workers together with him,beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain.
2 (For he saith,I have heard thee in a time accepted,and in the day of salvation have I sucoured thee:behold,now is the accepted time;behold,now is the day of salvation.)

Also Father JD provide for us one example of any judgment scene where those going to heaven and those going to hell is based on their having faith alone and being given the imputed righteousness of Christ? In every single judgment scene in the New Testament the exact opposite is true in that our eternal judgment is based on works and obedience to God's commandments.



Revelation 22:11-14
11He that is unjust,let him be unjust still:and he which is filthy,let him be filthy still:and he that is righteous,let him be righteous still:and he that is holy,let him be holy still.
12 And,behold,I come quickly;and my reward is with me,to give every man according as his work shall be.
13 I am Alpha and Omega,the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments,that they may have right to the tree of life,and may enter in through the gates into the city.

[nrajeff]

Salvation is not guaranteed if Paul warns the saints at Corinth that it is possible to receive the grace of God in vain. However it would be guaranteed if according to Reformed doctrine they first received an imputed,alien righteousness of Christ. It would also would make faith unnecessary since at this point in time they were are already saved.

Paul would also be making no sense in warning them to "receive not the grace of God in vain" and be guilty of teaching false doctrine by saying that they are "workers together with him."

Also Father JD provide for us one example of any judgment scene where those going to heaven and those going to hell is based on their having faith alone and being given the imputed righteousness of Christ? In every single judgment scene in the New Testament the exact opposite is true in that our eternal judgment is based on works and obedience to God's commandments.

---Great points, Mesenja. Calvinism might "seem" to be supported by the Bible....until a person looks into it. Then it's shown to have less Biblical support than LDSism has.

[RealFakeHair]

---Great points, Mesenja. Calvinism might "seem" to be supported by the Bible....until a person looks into it. Then it's shown to have less Biblical support than LDSism has.

Okay, okay, now lets see, yep the Bible supports humans becoming gods of their own planets with many wives to put out them spirit babies, and them temple mason cer0monies, and prophets who can make a prophecy and young boys called elders, and, and and something about Calvinism is less or more less then LDSims?:confused:

[Mesenja]

---Great points,Mesenja. Calvinism might "seem" to be supported by the Bible....until a person looks into it. Then it's shown to have less Biblical support than LDSism has.



http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_D60xnL33mvQ/SJpOjH8CwcI/AAAAAAAAADc/JcTvNBkxd20/s320/troll.gif

[nrajeff]

Don't worry. I have no intention of giving a troll any nourishment.

[Mesenja]

Clearly you must be clueless as to just how close the secret temple rites are to Masonic ones,Mesenja.



I asked you the question when,where and how. When and where did Joseph Smith take the particular Temple ordinances of baptisms for the dead and anointings and washings from Masonry? The fundamental question remains as to how he could have done this as this is not part of Masonry.

[Father_JD]

I asked you the question when,where and how. When and where did Joseph Smith take the particular Temple ordinances of baptisms for the dead and anointings and washings from Masonry? The fundamental question remains as to how he could have done this as this is not part of Masonry.

I don't know exactly "when, where, and how", but the EVIDENCE REMAINS: The almost point by point similarities between the Masonic Rites and the Mormon temple rite.

You think JS came up with his little fig-leaf apron idea all on his own? Or the blood oaths if one revealed the rite to the outside world? ;)

[alanmolstad]

The use of Satan's symbols on Mormon buildings should give a Mormon pause....but it doesn't...they laugh it off.

But one day the smile will be wiped off their faces..

[RealFakeHair]

The use of Satan's symbols on Mormon buildings should give a Mormon pause....but it doesn't...they laugh it off.

But one day the smile will be wiped off their faces..
I wonder if there are any mormon symbols on the Moon? That reminds me of the other day when I was taking to a lady who had thoughts of joining the LDS inc. While mentioning a few strange teachings and practices of the LDS inc. I throw in the Brigham Young, quote about Quaker like people living on the Moon, and her response was, " I believe there are people living on the Moon too."
Well, that ended our conversation.lol

[James Banta]

I wonder if there are any mormon symbols on the Moon? That reminds me of the other day when I was taking to a lady who had thoughts of joining the LDS inc. While mentioning a few strange teachings and practices of the LDS inc. I throw in the Brigham Young, quote about Quaker like people living on the Moon, and her response was, " I believe there are people living on the Moon too."
Well, that ended our conversation.lol

Hey the ole boy even said there were people loving on the sun (J. of D., Vol. 13, p. 271).. What was the limit of his false teachings.. By this it would seem to be unlimited.. IHS jim

[Pa Pa]

Like so many of your posts and so many of other Mormons on this board, I'll just comment upon something unrelated.

Your tagline: "Abba Xanthus said, "A dog is better than I am, For he has love and does not judge."

Think about that in relation to the unworthy father of the groom who is not allowed to attend the wedding.
Cryptic...still har***ing Mormons on their way to worship. I cannot count the threads about such symbols on the Salt Lake Temple. The Rome Temple has crosses on the door...ever exposed that, or does it not fit you worldview. Not to mention the many visitors centers with pictures of Christ dying for our sins...wait that would just be Calvinist; correct?

[Pa Pa]

Hey the ole boy even said there were people loving on the sun (J. of D., Vol. 13, p. 271).. What was the limit of his false teachings.. By this it would seem to be unlimited.. IHS jim
Hiding behind your disgust for polygamy while doing the same.

[Pa Pa]

The use of Satan's symbols on Mormon buildings should give a Mormon pause....but it doesn't...they laugh it off.

But one day the smile will be wiped off their faces..
Why are they not Satanic in Luther's Church...the father of the Protestant movement, and the wooden rotting shied you hid behind?

[Pa Pa]

Don't worry. I have no intention of giving a troll any nourishment.
Have not seen you in a while :)

[Apologette]

Why are they not Satanic in Luther's Church...the father of the Protestant movement, and the wooden rotting shied you hid behind?

Papa? Have you been to Nauvoo? Those pentagrams are quite prominent, as are Masonic symbols, on the temple. I've been in many Christian churches, cathedrals, etc., and I've never seen a pentagram in any of them - it's a well known occult symbol. That's not to say that there aren't any with pentagrams, but certainly not as prominently displayed as in Nauvoo. Luther was not a prophet, nor did he pretend to be one. He stood against some very obvious distortions of the Gospel in the Roman faith, and was a very valiant man. He had beliefs about the Jewish people which we don't share today (just as Brigham Young and Joseph Smith had beliefs about blacks that we don't have today). Yet, Luther was a moral man, and certainly not Satanic. Have you ever read his catechism?

[Apologette]

Have not seen you in a while :)

He wrote that back in August - Jeff's not here.

[Pa Pa]

Papa? Have you been to Nauvoo? Those pentagrams are quite prominent, as are Masonic symbols, on the temple. I've been in many Christian churches, cathedrals, etc., and I've never seen a pentagram in any of them - it's a well known occult symbol. That's no to say that there aren't any with pentagrams, but certainly not as prominently displayed as in Nauvoo. Luther was not a prophet, nor did he pretend to be one. He stood against some very obvious distortions of the Gospel in the Roman faith, and was a very valiant man. He had beliefs about the Jewish people which we don't share today (just as Brigham Young and Joseph Smith had beliefs about blacks that we don't have today). Yet, Luther was a moral man, and certainly not Satanic. Have you ever read his catechism?

And they are Protestant Churches in Germany (where I lived for, four years)...but yes, been to Nauvoo, but not before the Temple was rebuilt. Calling these "Satanic symbols" has not been the case since Luther.

[Pa Pa]

And they are Protestant Churches in Germany (where I lived for, four years)...but yes, been to Nauvoo, but not before the Temple was rebuilt. Calling these "Satanic symbols" has not been the case since Luther.

Meant to say not until long after Luther.

[Apologette]

And they are Protestant Churches in Germany (where I lived for, four years)...but yes, been to Nauvoo, but not before the Temple was rebuilt. Calling these "Satanic symbols" has not been the case since Luther.

Papa, if you've ever studied the occult, you'd know that pentagrams certainly have been considered to be occultic since the rise of Wicca and Satanism in this country. So, you are saying that Lutheran churches in Germany had pentagrams?

[Pa Pa]

Papa, if you've ever studied the occult, you'd know that pentagrams certainly have been considered to be occultic since the rise of Wicca and Satanism in this country. So, you are saying that Lutheran churches in Germany had pentagrams?
Calling something a thing does not make it so, what it they started calling the cross the same? I have come to view as a comp***ionate woman who just disagrees with Mormonism...don't want to fight. you being a lady I should have never said so of the things I have in the past...trying to repent.

[RealFakeHair]

Calling something a thing does not make it so, what it they started calling the cross the same? I have come to view as a comp***ionate woman who just disagrees with Mormonism...don't want to fight. you being a lady I should have never said so of the things I have in the past...trying to repent.

I am only a lady when I put on a dress.
I like to disagree with myself sometimes, and then I know one of us is right.
It is good to see repentance, I am trying to find out if I need to repent, but being perfect I am having such a hard time of it.
Anyways, I hope the road to repentance is the correct one, good luck.

[MacG]

Papa, if you've ever studied the occult, you'd know that pentagrams certainly have been considered to be occultic since the rise of Wicca and Satanism in this country. So, you are saying that Lutheran churches in Germany had pentagrams?

FYI Google "the five wounds of Christ"

[Apologette]

Calling something a thing does not make it so, what it they started calling the cross the same? I have come to view as a comp***ionate woman who just disagrees with Mormonism...don't want to fight. you being a lady I should have never said so of the things I have in the past...trying to repent.

Oh, Papa, how sweet! Well anyway, just because we disagree doesn't mean we can't be friends - I live among the Mormons and some are my friends! A couple have even gone to church with me!

[James Banta]

Hiding behind your disgust for polygamy while doing the same.


I didn't say a word in this context about polygamy.. But since you brought it up. I see the LDS church distancing it's self again from polygamy. In the new set of LDS scripture the heading concerning marriage calls monogamy God ordained.. next set they publish might even call BY a false prophet... After all he taught that no one who isn't a polygamist at least of the heart can never be exalted.. Sound to the Christians here on WM that BY thought the ordinance of Plural Marriage (The New ans Everlasting Covenant) was more important to receive God's greatest gifts that Jesus.. But the new LDS church is distancing it's self even further from polygamy..


Official Declaration 1
The Bible and the Book of Mormon teach that monogamy is God’s standard for marriage unless He declares otherwise

Yes the Bible teaches that it is not lawful to multiply wives (If it's illegal for the king it's illegal for the people), and the BofM out and out contradicts the 132nd section of the D&C that says David and Solomon didn't sin in taking multiple wives (D&C 132:38), and called David's and Salomon's polygamy an abomination (Jacob 2:24).. Since when is committing an abomination before God not committing sin? IHS jim

[James Banta]

---Jim, if ANY of your post was supposed to be proving what I said to be wrong or false, it went right over my head. Because I saw nothing in what you said that refutes any of my point. There is a Bible verse that says that fearing God and keeping His commandments is in nothing did they sin save in those things which they received not of me.. Seems like God places more importance on us obeying Him, than we put on it. I wonder whether we are right to downgrade its importance.


Not one of us has been totally obedient to God.. Yes being obedient is our duty to God and yet we have all neglected that duty.. If you believe that obedience is the way to God though quoting such a p***age (Ecclesiastes 12:13) then you have to admit that no one can be saved.. Now if we are saved by grace then it is not of the work of obedience. If it is by the work of obedience then it is NOT of grace (Romans 11:6).. Do some soul searching and you will see that you are a sinner not just by practice but by your very nature.. You have to resist evil. You are always tempted to do evil. You are never tempted to do righteousness.. IHS jim

[MosesKennedy]

The connection has been made so often it's worth repeating. Change is good for the LDS. Mormon. So far, God has removed polygamy, racsim, throat slahing gestures in LDS temple ceremonies, Masonry, discount underwear (http://www.robustbuy.com/womens-clothes-lingerie-sets-c-1083_1085_1088.html) more contemporary, communicating with the dead and other occult practices, etc. ... I wonder, what's next? Officailly declaring the Bom and Book of Abe inspired fiction since it's so historically flawed and inaccurate?

Given the obvious history of LDS and the occult it's not a stretch to see the satanic influence on the idols and symbols adorning their temples. It's like religion to the symbols, idols, and greed if nothing else. lol shoe :)

What next is very hard to answer. i don't believe in such things so these are horrible from my perspective.

[alanmolstad]

Oh no...say it's not true!

Tell me that the same country that gave the world Adolph Hitler and gas chambers doesn't also have a church some place with an upside down star on it!....Oh nooooooooooo

I may faint....

yes I feel myself fainting...Im about to drift away.....here I go....

PFFFFFT...whoops, it was just a little gas.

never mind....