Proxy baptisms

[Trinity]

Hello Seebok my good friend,


Jewish group wants Mormons to stop proxy baptisms
By DEEPTI HAJELA and JENNIFER DOBNER, ***ociated Press Writers
Mon, Nov 10, 2008

NEW YORK – Holocaust survivors said Monday they are through trying to negotiate with the Mormon church over posthumous baptisms of Jews killed in Nazi concentration camps, saying the church has repeatedly violated a 13-year-old agreement barring the practice.

Michel suggested that posthumous baptisms of Holocaust victims play into the hands of Holocaust deniers.

"They tell me, that my parents' Jewishness has not been altered but ... 100 years from now, how will they be able to guarantee that my mother and father of blessed memory who lived as Jews and were slaughtered by Hitler for no other reason than they were Jews, will someday not be identified as Mormon victims of the Holocaust?" Michel said Monday.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081110/ap_on_re_us/baptizing_the_dead;_ylt=AgoIy2H9Nk4uDCVWoaTjdMes0N UE

I know that we had a huge verbal fight, together, about this issue, in our past. A very ugly fight indeed. I do not search for a second one, not once more, and I come with peace. :)

However, I still hope the LDS will fix this issue permanently, and very soon. They mention in this article that they should reorganize the protocol for the treatment of those Jewish informations. Can we trust, this time, that this will happen? Thank you.

Trinity

[seebok]

Hello Seebok my good friend,



I know that we had a huge verbal fight, together, about this issue, in our past. A very ugly fight indeed. I do not search for a second one, not once more, and I come with peace. :)

However, I still hope the LDS will fix this issue permanently, and very soon. They mention in this article that they should reorganize the protocol for the treatment of those Jewish informations. Can we trust, this time, that this will happen? Thank you.

Trinity

Hi Trinity

I know you have strong feelings about this but I kinda enjoyed that intense discussion. There was only one discussion I had with you that I would call a verbal fight, and that one was more about intentionally egging the other on or annoying the other than about any topic if I recall correctly.

Many Jews hate this practice. Many could care less.

Know that baptism for the dead is an ordinance offered, not one coerced.

But if you are offended, perhaps we could offer you the same invitation that has been offered to more vocal critics. Can you come out to SLC and give a cl*** on how to recognize a Jewish name with certainly? And of course, anyone who would accept such an offer would be immediately pegged as racist by the same people they would be trying to "protect"

Last time around, I never did get a response from you on this. If a mere offering offends you, if having an understanding of the continuance of agency in Heaven offends you, when is the Catholic Church going to stop making direct pleadings to the Lord for the dead in terms of prayers, m***es, and alms? How dare Catholics be so presumptuous that the dead want these things or even more presumptuous that the Lord can be influenced. With eveyone one of these acts, isn;t the Catholic Church proclaiming that God is not a se. So much for essential doctrine.

Best

s.

[Trinity]

Hi Seebok,


...when is the Catholic Church going to stop making direct pleadings to the Lord for the dead in terms of prayers, m***es, and alms? How dare Catholics be so presumptuous that the dead want these things or even more presumptuous that the Lord can be influenced. With eveyone one of these acts, isn;t the Catholic Church proclaiming that God is not a se. So much for essential doctrine.

Nice try friend, but your argument can not stand the road because of very good reasons.

1. Catholics are choosing willingly to have their funeral into a Catholic Church and this before they die. That means they want to stay Catholics in this life and in the afterlife.
2. They pay around between $600.00 to $700.00 for the Catholic relgious service and for the lot into the Catholic cemetery.
3. They were baptized Catholic first, and they have never renounced to their baptism. A second baptism is totally useless.
4. We only pray for deceased Catholics and not for people deceased from other religions.
5. We respect all people from the other faiths,we do not interfere in their rituals, and with their religious affiliations. In this life and in the afterlife.

Trinity

[stemelbow]

"They tell me, that my parents' Jewishness has not been altered but ... 100 years from now, how will they be able to guarantee that my mother and father of blessed memory who lived as Jews and were slaughtered by Hitler for no other reason than they were Jews, will someday not be identified as Mormon victims of the Holocaust?" Michel said Monday.


There is a long history to this and there is an LDS side to the story. I quote the above because I find it curious paranoia. Who would ever identify victims of the Holocaust as mormons if they lived as Jews? No one, not one Mormon would ever. The LDS has an official response to this. You should look it up.

Read this: http://www.mormonapologetics.org/index.php?showtopic=39048

love,
stem

[Trinity]

Hello Stem,


There is a long history to this and there is an LDS side to the story. I quote the above because I find it curious paranoia. Who would ever identify victims of the Holocaust as mormons if they lived as Jews? No one, not one Mormon would ever. The LDS has an official response to this. You should look it up. [/url]


Thank you for the link. I started to browse the information you gave me with an open mind.

I agree with you that his fears are not justified. There is no reason to believe that victims of the Shoah could be forgotten as authentic Jews. However, I can understand why they are upset. Jewishness and Christianity has a long story of anti-Semitism and the injuries are not healed yet. They are feeling as if the LDS wants to impose their faith or their beliefs. Morally, I think they have a strong argument.

I have questions. Now that the Catholic Church and the Jews have closed the access for the LDS to their data. What could you do to sustain this belief for the next generations? Also, how can you have access to the data from people living in the Eastern World? For me, this seems an impossible mission. In short, it is impossible to baptize the whole world, and men from all centuries, sites and religious conditions.

Trinity

[Trinity]

Hello Seebok,


Hi Trinity

I know you have strong feelings about this but I kinda enjoyed that intense discussion. There was only one discussion I had with you that I would call a verbal fight, and that one was more about intentionally egging the other on or annoying the other than about any topic if I recall correctly.

I agree. I was fool and I sincerely apologized. :)


But if you are offended, perhaps we could offer you the same invitation that has been offered to more vocal critics. Can you come out to SLC and give a cl*** on how to recognize a Jewish name with certainly? And of course, anyone who would accept such an offer would be immediately pegged as racist by the same people they would be trying to "protect".

No offense intended. The nazis were very good at this game. This is why Jews changed their Jewish names for popular christian names. Many saved their life this way.

It should not be difficult to see that Simon Wiesenthal is a Jewish name. Certainly for experts in genealogy as the LDS.

Trinity

[stemelbow]

Hello Stem,




Thank you for the link. I started to browse the information you gave me with an open mind.

I agree with you that his fears are not justified. There is no reason to believe that victims of the Shoah could be forgotten as authentic Jews. However, I can understand why they are upset. Jewishness and Christianity has a long story of anti-Semitism and the injuries are not healed yet. They are feeling as if the LDS wants to impose their faith or their beliefs. Morally, I think they have a strong argument.

I question why anyone sees anyone "imposing" LDS faith on anyone here? Baptism for the dead is a proxy deed offered to anyone who has died--if it is a non-sanctioned by God practice then certainly it means nothing eternally--if it is sanctioned by God then it is still up to the individual to choose to accept the ordinance or accept the belief. Its an offering not an imposition, as I see it. Could you expand on your thoughts?


I have questions. Now that the Catholic Church and the Jews have closed the access for the LDS to their data. What could you do to sustain this belief for the next generations? Also, how can you have access to the data from people living in the Eastern World? For me, this seems an impossible mission. In short, it is impossible to baptize the whole world, and men from all centuries, sites and religious conditions.

Trinity

My goodness...with God anything is possible. Its as simple as that in my mind.

There is often work done in the eastern world, as far as I know because I see the eastern names submitted. But I do not know the details of how it is obtained. Its an individual work in that regard.

love,
stem

[Trinity]

I question why anyone sees anyone "imposing" LDS faith on anyone here? Baptism for the dead is a proxy deed offered to anyone who has died--if it is a non-sanctioned by God practice then certainly it means nothing eternally--if it is sanctioned by God then it is still up to the individual to choose to accept the ordinance or accept the belief. Its an offering not an imposition, as I see it. Could you expand on your thoughts?

In politics perception is the reality. I think they should chase some Mormon missionaries across the streets and circumcise them on the sidewalks. Just kidding. :)

Like we say in my country our freedom ceases where the freedom of others begin. I am not sure if it is cons***utional to impose our beliefs to other groups in your society. However, I can understand, that the LDS believe that God has commanded this practice. If it is a real mission commanded by God we should not discuss it any longer. But, if it is not true. Well, Mormons are swimming in a very hot water. No offense intended, but I think the Jews should sue the LDS into the Federal court and to the Supreme court if necessary. Because I am a former Human Rights advocate, I am very curious to see what could happen at the end of the prosecution. This can be a very interesting and an entertaining case.


My goodness...with God anything is possible. Its as simple as that in my mind. There is often work done in the eastern world, as far as I know because I see the eastern names submitted. But I do not know the details of how it is obtained. Its an individual work in that regard.

Because of your sincerity, I have no other choice than to respect you. However, we disagree. Notice that Jews are not christians, and to baptize them by proxy, this seems a little bit bizarre for people outside the LDS.

Trinity

[stemelbow]

No offense intended, but I think the Jews should sue the LDS into the Federal court and to the Supreme court if necessary. Because I am a former Human Rights advocate, I am very curious to see what could happen at the end of the prosecution. This can be a very interesting and an entertaining case.

On what grounds could they bring the lawsuit?

love,
stem

[Trinity]

Hi Stem,


On what grounds could they bring the lawsuit?

Human rights and the willing ***ent of the subjects. It is more easy to prove or demonstrate the religious affiliation of a dead man than his actual status in the afterlife. Tangible proofs against a foreign religious belief should be sustainable in a court. Family can also call for a psychological and sociable prejudice, and claiming for a compensation.

The jurisprudence about the Mormon polygamy vs. the Federal Law can be useful in this new case. I am sure the previous argumentation can provide new munitions. Also, a family can pronounce a libel if they think that this is prejudicial to the memory and the historical patrimonies of the deceased (ex: Mormon baptism of Rabbis). Judge or judges would have to establish the damage at the reputation.

A collective pursuit can also be submitted. If they won this will cost LDS billions of dollars.

Trinity

[seebok]

Hi Seebok,



Nice try friend, but your argument can not stand the road because of very good reasons.

1. Catholics are choosing willingly to have their funeral into a Catholic Church and this before they die. That means they want to stay Catholics in this life and in the afterlife.
2. They pay around between $600.00 to $700.00 for the Catholic relgious service and for the lot into the Catholic cemetery.
3. They were baptized Catholic first, and they have never renounced to their baptism. A second baptism is totally useless.
4. We only pray for deceased Catholics and not for people deceased from other religions.
5. We respect all people from the other faiths,we do not interfere in their rituals, and with their religious affiliations. In this life and in the afterlife.

Trinity

1. That's presumptuous. When one gets to Heaven and finds out the truth, the reasonable conclusion is that they would want to align with it. Aligning with truth is what we do here and is what we will do there.

2. I won't begrudge that Catholic for fee service.

3. Once again, you are being presumptuous. People tend to change once convinced of the truth. Wouldn't you agree? Do you believe people will still have agency in Heaven or do you believe they are locked into all their Earthly choices? If agency is gone, that sounds like a pretty unsatisfying Heaven you offer.

4: Continuing with the theme, that's presumptuous. How do you know these people in Heaven are still Catholic? And you've never uttered a prayer for God to somehow intercede for a person who is not Catholic; not in life or in death? My hunch is that you have and are not so Catholic-centric.

5: Your intrusive prayers for non-Catholics aside ;-), seems you are interfering with (or condoning the interference of) the rituals of others right now.

The whole reason records of many Catholic Churches are available in Salt Lake City, is because Catholic leaders saw value in the preservation of those records -- They knew it could help Catholics. They get digital records for free that they can maintain, plus their physical records are spruced up as well. And like I believe your private prayers for non-Catholics to convert roll off of non-Catholics' backs like water off a duck (not to mention God's back), so do most Catholics and others who do not affiliate with the Church of Jesus Christ view our private rituals. But if you want to be offended, you certainly have that right. In the mean-time, can you talk to Pope Ratzenberger about stopping all Catholic prayers for non-Catholics -- they really offend me. :rolleyes:

best

s.

[Trinity]

Hi Seebok,


1. That's presumptuous...

What is presumptuous is to say that you know more about heaven than anyone, and without having visiting that place not even one time. Wait until you die. :)

I would let go this topic because nothing very serious is coming out from this discussion. I am not looking for an argument.

If you think Jews are though cookies, wait for the Arabs.

Trinity

[seebok]

Hi Seebok,
What is presumptuous is to say that you know more about heaven than anyone, and without having visiting that place not even one time. Wait until you die. :)

You are right of course, but I was only following your lead when you presumed that because someone lived on Earth and was buried a Catholic, that choice would be validated in Heaven and no other truth or option would come to the fore. ;)

Best regards

Seebok

[Trinity]

In the mean-time, can you talk to Pope Ratzenberger about stopping all Catholic prayers for non-Catholics -- they really offend me. :rolleyes:

His name is Joseph Alois Ratzinger.

Trinity

[seebok]

His name is Joseph Alois Ratzinger.

Trinity

Thank you. Pope Ratzinger. I believe I confused his last name with that of an actor with a similar name. It was not intentional. Or do you prefer Pope Benedict?

s.

p.s. Looks like I need to clarify that my new auto signature, "Votaire's prayer" is only in reference to the frequently irrational.

[Trinity]

Thank you. Pope Ratzinger. I believe I confused his last name with that of an actor with a similar name. It was not intentional. Or do you prefer Pope Benedict?

Until he dies, the Pope Benedict is the person that he is incarnating for the Church. His civil name is more for his good friends and his relatives. However, if you reject his mission, Cardinal Ratzinger, can be appropriate.


p.s. Looks like I need to clarify that my new auto signature, "Votaire's prayer" is only in reference to the frequently irrational.

I am the only one here who can read Voltaire in his language. Perhaps you should find a quote that everyone could read and appreciate for his value or for his beauty. :)

Trinity

[stemelbow]

Hi Stem,



Human rights and the willing ***ent of the subjects.

Now my question is how does baptism for the dead concern someone's human rights? Or the willing ***ent of the subject?


It is more easy to prove or demonstrate the religious affiliation of a dead man than his actual status in the afterlife. Tangible proofs against a foreign religious belief should be sustainable in a court. Family can also call for a psychological and sociable prejudice, and claiming for a compensation.

Yowzaa. I only see paranoia. it just makes no sense to me. I guess we can leave it at that.


The jurisprudence about the Mormon polygamy vs. the Federal Law can be useful in this new case. I am sure the previous argumentation can provide new munitions. Also, a family can pronounce a libel if they think that this is prejudicial to the memory and the historical patrimonies of the deceased (ex: Mormon baptism of Rabbis). Judge or judges would have to establish the damage at the reputation.

A collective pursuit can also be submitted. If they won this will cost LDS billions of dollars.

Trinity

That'd be interesting. If someone won a case on these grounds I'd say it'd be the end to freedom.

love,
stem

[Trinity]

Hello Stem,


Now my question is how does baptism for the dead concern someone's human rights? Or the willing ***ent of the subject?


I do not know about how things work in your country, but in mine, usurpation of iden***y with an illegal proxy is criminal.

Trinity

[nrajeff]

If the Jews want to research my name after I die, and do a proxy bris and bar mitzvah on my behalf, I won't file a lawsuit against them.

[Father_JD]

I don't think a "proxy" bris is possible, jeff. Once it's gone, it's GONE!! :p

[Libby]

Hello Stem,




I do not know about how things work in your country, but in mine, usurpation of iden***y with an illegal proxy is criminal.

Trinity

Just curious, here, but does that mean LDS cannot perform Temple ordinances in Canada?

[Trinity]

Hello Libby,


Just curious, here, but does that mean LDS cannot perform Temple ordinances in Canada?

This was never challenged into a Canadian court. At my knowledge. We do not have many mormons in Canada. Around 200,000.

proxy
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/proxy

To be legal a proxy will need a signature. Very difficult to obtain from a corpse. :)

Trinity

[Trinity]

Hello nrajeff,


If the Jews want to research my name after I die, and do a proxy bris and bar mitzvah on my behalf, I won't file a lawsuit against them.

Sorry but this is an impossibility. Jews do not enforce their faith to anyone. This practice is singular to mormonism.

Trinity

[stemelbow]

Hello Stem,




I do not know about how things work in your country, but in mine, usurpation of iden***y with an illegal proxy is criminal.

Trinity

Nobody's usurping anyone's iden***y, and it is not illegal in anyway. Not even in Canada.

love,
stem

[Trinity]

Hello stem,


Nobody's usurping anyone's iden***y, and it is not illegal in anyway. Not even in Canada.

This is not illegal until someone brings the LDS in court. This is why I am observing the Jews dealing with this issue. Their patience is not unlimited. If they cannot solve this problem in a friendly manner, well, they will sue the LDS. They have excellent lawyers and they are very persistent. I learned to play chess with them. They are very clever. For now they are cumulating data, and they are building their file. Actually, they are also preparing the public opinion with their press campaign. This is the first step.

Trinity

[Trinity]

Vatican trying to avoid baptism by proxy
The Salt Lake Tribune, USA
May 5, 2008

The Roman Catholic Church has recently directed dioceses worldwide not to give parish information to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

The move is to prevent LDS Church members from baptizing by proxy Catholic ancestors. An April 5 letter from the Vatican Congregation for Clergy directs all Catholic bishops “to keep the Latter-day Saints from microfilming and digitizing information contained” in parish registers, according to a Catholic News Service article published Friday.

http://www.religionnewsblog.com/21388/vatican-trying-to-avoid-baptism-by-proxy

After the Jews and the Catholics I believe the rest of the world will do the same. With the unanimity of all other churches or religions, this problem will be solved more easily than I was thinking.

One human being on six on this planet is a catholic. When all doors will be shut, this belief will collapse on itself.

Trinity

[stemelbow]

Hello stem,



This is not illegal until someone brings the LDS in court. This is why I am observing the Jews dealing with this issue. Their patience is not unlimited. If they cannot solve this problem in a friendly manner, well, they will sue the LDS.

They are the ones who are giving up on resolving it in a friendly manner. of course most Jews could care less, just like the rest of hte world. We should clarify that point.


They have excellent lawyers and they are very persistent. I learned to play chess with them. They are very clever.

With their lawyers?


For now they are cumulating data, and they are building their file. Actually, they are also preparing the public opinion with their press campaign. This is the first step.

Trinity

Sounds like someone's gearing up to fight others. Oh well. We'll see what unfolds here. I've never understood this sort of hostility and paranoia.

love,
stem

[stemelbow]

Vatican trying to avoid baptism by proxy
The Salt Lake Tribune, USA
May 5, 2008

The Roman Catholic Church has recently directed dioceses worldwide not to give parish information to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

The move is to prevent LDS Church members from baptizing by proxy Catholic ancestors. An April 5 letter from the Vatican Congregation for Clergy directs all Catholic bishops “to keep the Latter-day Saints from microfilming and digitizing information contained” in parish registers, according to a Catholic News Service article published Friday.

http://www.religionnewsblog.com/21388/vatican-trying-to-avoid-baptism-by-proxy

After the Jews and the Catholics I believe the rest of the world will do the same. With the unanimity of all other churches or religions, this problem will be solved more easily than I was thinking.

One human being on six on this planet is a catholic. When all doors will be shut, this belief will collapse on itself.

Trinity

Alright prophetess. We'll see how well your prophesying unfolds. Most folks aren't so paranoid and full of hate, as I see it.

love,
stem

[MickeyS]

[QUOTE=Trinity;

I have questions. Now that the Catholic Church and the Jews have closed the access for the LDS to their data. What could you do to sustain this belief for the next generations? Also, how can you have access to the data from people living in the Eastern World? For me, this seems an impossible mission. In short, it is impossible to baptize the whole world, and men from all centuries, sites and religious conditions.

Trinity[/QUOTE]

I know this is an incredibly old thread but I came across this completely on accident(went to the end of the threads inadvertently) and I wanted to comment on this. We believe whatever names have not been done by the Second Coming of the Savior will be done during the thousand year reign of Christ on earth. By then all will know if we were right in doing what we are doing now, and if we aren't , it won't matter. By God, all things are possible :). I just wanted to share that if anyone else happens by, you seemed to be having a far more cordial discussion than others I've seen

[Grandma]

However upset these groups are, members will still do temple work for holocaust victims and deceased catholics as long as they are family. These two groups have no right, legally or morally, to deny people the chance to hear the gospel.

Getting dunked in water for a dead person doesn't give a skeleton ears. Nor is it necessary to share the gospel with those who didn't follow Christ in this life.

Hebrews 9:27
And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

2 Corinthians 5:10
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

In Christian love,

Grandma