What's the difference between being "Christ-like" and being "Christian"?

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

What (if any) is the difference between being "Christ-like" and being "Christian"?

For example, it can be observed that not all Christians are "Good Samaritans", and that not all "Good Samaritans" are Christians. Yet, common sense would indicate that it is "Christ-like" to be a Good Samaritan.

What (if any) is the difference between being "Christlike" and being "Christian"?

[Richard]

To me, Christlike is quiet different then just stating you are Christian and believe in Christ.
My take is, what in any circumstance, any event, any place, any conversation, what would Christ himself do. If we are truly Christians, then a act of Faith in not enough, but doing is the key word. Do not just believe in the Commandments Christ himself lived, but be a doer of the commandment to the best on ones ability and desire to be Christlike.

I have taught many times at Church, given Sacrament talks, but the key of any teaching or talk is what the members them self take away. Are we teachable? Do we leave the Chapel stating to one another, wow, great talk, great lesson, or do we leave and say, I believe what I was taught to day, and I will change my life and incorporate these teaching into my everyday life. When we read the Bible or Book of Mormon, do we say I believe this is true, or do we say this is true and I will live it's teachings.

Richard :-)

[dfoJC]

What (if any) is the difference between being "Christ-like" and being "Christian"?

For example, it can be observed that not all Christians are "Good Samaritans", and that not all "Good Samaritans" are Christians. Yet, common sense would indicate that it is "Christ-like" to be a Good Samaritan.

What (if any) is the difference between being "Christlike" and being "Christian"?

I believe there is quite a difference. The word "Christian" was first used in Antioch, it was a term of derision by those outside of the faith, it simply means "little Christ." It speaks of a fundamental change in the heart of the one being called Christian.

"Christ-like" means to conduct oneself as Christ would in any given situation. What is interesting for me is this, one can do exactly what Christ did and not have any relationship with Him at all. Very wealthy people give out of their fortunes, what separates them from one who is a Christian is the motive. The motive might be a much needed tax break, or the motive might be to impress others how good they can be. But in the end, their hearts are far from God. Yet, their actions speak something.

So, if you are a Christian, Christ-like behavior is to be expected, yet, motive must always be taken into account.

I am off to church now. My motive is to enjoy worshipping Him who saved me, so that I can walk in a Christ-like manner. So that He gets the glory. Yes, it will be wonderful, and I expect Him to show up. It's His promise to us.

be blessed all,
dfoJC

[Libby]

I agree with dfoJC that the difference is in the heart. God gives us a new heart and the indwelling Spirit of Christ and that core is what makes the difference. The works don't really come from us, but from Christ in us. Along with that is the realization that all good things come from God and giving Him the Glory.

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

I agree with dfoJC that the difference is in the heart. God gives us a new heart and the indwelling Spirit of Christ and that core is what makes the difference. The works don't really come from us, but from Christ in us. Along with that is the realization that all good things come from God and giving Him the Glory.

So, if a pagan does a good act, does that come from God? (I would say so, but that is the Mormonism in me speaking).

I take it that you would agree that a person can be very Christ-LIKE, yet not be a "Christian" in name. Correct?

[dfoJC]

So, if a pagan does a good act, does that come from God? (I would say so, but that is the Mormonism in me speaking).

I take it that you would agree that a person can be very Christ-LIKE, yet not be a "Christian" in name. Correct?

I don't believe it is "from God." I believe it is from the pagan's own soul. God is not in it.

Having said this, it is my contention that anyone can apply a principle of God in their life and reap a benefit. I have seen this in many ways throughout my life. God gets no credit for it, yet, the results of that principle, say ***hing for instance, are obvious. Why? Because God's principles are usable by anyone.

I would agree with the last part of your statement, many can show "Christ-like" behavior but would be absolutely mortified at being labeled "Christian."

dfoJC

[Libby]

I don't believe it is "from God." I believe it is from the pagan's own soul. God is not in it.

Having said this, it is my contention that anyone can apply a principle of God in their life and reap a benefit. I have seen this in many ways throughout my life. God gets no credit for it, yet, the results of that principle, say ***hing for instance, are obvious. Why? Because God's principles are usable by anyone.

I would agree with the last part of your statement, many can show "Christ-like" behavior but would be absolutely mortified at being labeled "Christian."

dfoJC

Yes, that was very well said. :)

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

I don't believe it is "from God." I believe it is from the pagan's own soul. God is not in it.

Having said this, it is my contention that anyone can apply a principle of God in their life and reap a benefit. I have seen this in many ways throughout my life. God gets no credit for it, yet, the results of that principle, say ***hing for instance, are obvious. Why? Because God's principles are usable by anyone.

I would agree with the last part of your statement, many can show "Christ-like" behavior but would be absolutely mortified at being labeled "Christian."

dfoJC

And what comes from the heart and soul is not from God unless you have the Christian label to go with it?

[dfoJC]

And what comes from the heart and soul is not from God unless you have the Christian label to go with it?

What comes from the heart and soul is dependant upon one thing, salvation.

I put no "Christian label" on it, I simply state what God has spoken. If one is living a life according to the pattern established by the "first Adam," then what comes out of that persons heart and soul is determined by that fact.

If one is "born from above," in other words, is now living a life led by the indwelling Spirit of God, then what comes out of that persons heart is in agreement with the "Last Adam." You know, the Obedient One.

dfoJC

[Mesenja]

What (if any) is the difference between being "Christ-like" and being "Christian"?

For example,it can be observed that not all Christians are "Good Samaritans",and that not all "Good Samaritans" are Christians. Yet,common sense would indicate that it is "Christ-like" to be a Good Samaritan.

What (if any) is the difference between being "Christlike" and being "Christian"?

The more that you follow in the footsteps of Jesus and take on his qualities or become Christ-like the more you become a Christian.

[Sentinus]

The more that you follow in the footsteps of Jesus and take on his qualities or become Christ-like the more you become a Christian.

And eventually you come to understand that when you accept Christ and His atonement you are "in Christ" and "one in him" and therefor under no condemnation. You are now Him and no longer you at all. All sin to come is in Him and no further acts or "works' are necessary.. You were crucified with Him, died with Him, and resurrected with Him. It is all finished in Him. (See Galatians)

Thus we are free, and few ever come to know this freedom, because many see this line of reasoning as leading the believer to a free license to sin, those that see it this way are still to legalistic and caught up in works to understand. Thus as in days of old Paul's message still is lost on the majority who claim to be "Christian". Take that step Mesenja, have faith in the completed work of the cross, I know it seems foolish to some and is a stumbling block to others, but I know you can do it.

In Christ,
Sentinus

[Mesenja]

And eventually you come to understand that when you accept Christ and His atonement you are "in Christ" and "one in him" and therefor under no condemnation. You are now Him and no longer you at all. All sin to come is in Him and no further acts or "works' are necessary. You were crucified with Him,died with Him,and resurrected with Him. It is all finished in Him. (See Galatians)

Thus we are free,and few ever come to know this freedom,because many see this line of reasoning as leading the believer to a free license to sin,those that see it this way are still to legalistic and caught up in works to understand. Thus as in days of old Paul's message still is lost on the majority who claim to be "Christian". Take that step Mesenja,have faith in the completed work of the cross,I know it seems foolish to some and is a stumbling block to others,but I know you can do it.

In Christ,
Sentinus

Sadly you still believe the theology of Martin Luther that sees the justified man as being a “snow-covered dung hill.” I see myself as more then that.

[akaSeerone]

Sadly you still believe the theology of Martin Luther that sees the justified man as being a “snow-covered dung hill.” I see myself as more then that.That is a real pity because Sentinus is backed up by the Bible....God Himself and what you said is just the rationalizing opinion of fallen mankind.

Considering that mormonism uses the King James.....

Philippians 3

1Finally, my brethren, rejoice in the Lord. To write the same things to you, to me indeed is not grievous, but for you it is safe.

2Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision.

3For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.

4Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:

5Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;

6Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.

7But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.

8Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,

9And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

Thanks Paul....you refuted more than one false mormon doctrine/teaching with those few words of Holy Writ.....Amen and Halle-Lu-Jah!!

Andy

[Sentinus]

Sadly you still believe the theology of Martin Luther that sees the justified man as being a “snow-covered dung hill.” I see myself as more then that.

Don't reject the truth of freedom in Jesus Christ he went to the cross for all (That includes you). Unlike your missionaries I will never dust my feet off at your door, I will constantly reach out and pray for the LDS people you especially.

I will continue to hope that you will actually pray and ponder over the truthfulness of what I just shared. Dust off your Bible it's usually found in the front part of your quad. Turn to Galatians and read it for yourself. NOTHING I said was learned from the teaching of Luther, all I shared was directly from the New Testament, with a HUGE focus in the book of Galatians..

Additionally I would love to see the reference for your "snow covered dung hill" quote.. So CFR..

[Sentinus]

Sadly you still believe the theology of Martin Luther that sees the justified man as being a “snow-covered dung hill.” I see myself as more then that.



I see myself as more then that.

Spoken just as fallen man would see it.. Hopefully some day you will be able to see yourself in your true state before God without the blood of the atonement.. Awake foolish man awake..

[Mesenja]

Spoken just as fallen man would see it. Hopefully some day you will be able to see yourself in your true state before God without the blood of the Atonement. Awake foolish man awake.


Feel free to view yourself along with Martin Luther of justified man being a "snow-covered dunghill."

[akaSeerone]

Feel free to view yourself along with Martin Luther of justified man being a "snow-covered dunghill."Why are you bringing Luther into the discussion...how about what Paul said that is equivalent to "snow covered dung hill" and what exactly is wrong with that expression concerning what people are when they become Christians?

Andy

[alanmolstad]

What (if any) is the difference between being "Christ-like" and being "Christian"?


when you become a believer you are a "Christian"

and then as you grow in the christian faith you change, and begin to reflect the lord's work in your heart and life...you become more "Christ-like'

Your mind is "Transformed".

[alanmolstad]

So, if a pagan does a good act, does that come from God?

I believe the answer to this question is "Yes"
When a person does something that is "good", it is the result of God's effect on your life.
You may still be a lost unbeliever, but you still are not far from God and so it is a sign that god is changing your heart to reflect His love for you.

[Apologette]

I believe the answer to this question is "Yes"
When a person does something that is "good", it is the result of God's effect on your life.
You may still be a lost unbeliever, but you still are not far from God and so it is a sign that god is changing your heart to reflect His love for you.

Many cultists perform what men consider to be "good works." The Hare Krishnas give food and housing to folks. The Buddhists are very kind. But, according to the Scriptures, men are totally depraved and not able to please God. The Bible says,

6 Without faith no one can please God. Hebrew 1

The great Christian preacher Spurgeon gives us some insight:

"Without faith it is impossible to please God." And I gather it from the fact that there never has been the case of a man recorded in Scripture who did please God without faith. The 11th chapter of Hebrews is the chapter of the men who pleased God. Listen to their names: "By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice;" "By faith Enoch was translated;" "By faith Noah built an ark;" "By faith Abraham went out into a place that he should afterwards receive;" "By faith he sojourned in the land of promise;" "By faith Sarah bare Isaac;" "By faith Abraham offered up Isaac;" "By faith Moses gave up the wealth of Egypt;" "By faith Isaac blessed Jacob;" "By faith Jacob blessed the sons of Joseph;" "By faith Joseph, when he died, made mention of the departure of the children of Israel;" "By faith the Red Sea was dried up;" "By faith the walls of Jericho fell down;" "By faith the harlot Rahab was saved;" "And what more shall I say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gideon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae, of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets." But all these were men of faith. Others mentioned in Scripture, have done something; but God did not accept them. Men have humbled themselves, and yet God has not saved them. Ahab did, and yet his sins were never forgiven. Men have repented, and yet have not been saved, because their's was the wrong repentance. Juda repented, and went and hanged himself, and was not saved. Men have confessed their sins, and have not been saved. Saul did it. He said to David, "I have sinned against thee, my son David;" and yet he went on as he did before. Mul***udes have confessed the name of Christ, and have done many marvellous things, and yet they have never been pleasing to God, from this simple reason, that they had not faith. And if there be not one mentioned in Scripture, which is the history of some thousand years, it is not likely that in the other two thousand years of the world's history there would have been one, when there was not one during the first four thousand."

The Scriptures tell us that all our own righteousness is as filthy menstrual rags. That's what the Hebrew actually states. Unless one understands that their own righteousness is worthless and cannot save them, they are totally lost. Men must rely totally and without reservation on Christ's righteousness for salvtion. There is no other way - and for you, alanmostad, to start promoting Mormonism here by reposting false teachings makes me wonder what your purpose is here?

My purpose is this: I want to tell Mormons that they have not faith! Turn to Christ and cry out for mercy. Faith in a false cult and false prophet, is not faith in the True and Living God and His Messiah. Death lurks, it knocks at the door - don't be found without faith when you are called to Judgment.

[alanmolstad]

[B]
Many cultists perform what men consider to be "good works." The Hare Krishnas give food and housing to folks. The Buddhists are very kind. ]


Yes, any person that does anything that is what we would call here as being "good" has done so only because their actions can be traced back to God.

[Apologette]

Yes, any person that does anything that is what we would call here as being "good" has done so only because their actions can be traced back to God.

The only "works" which are good in God's eyes are those which proceed from faith in Christ. You have missed the Gospel.

[Apologette]

akaseerone, above, quoted some verses which Mormons would do well to consider;

Philippians 3

1Finally, my brethren, rejoice in the Lord. To write the same things to you, to me indeed is not grievous, but for you it is safe.

2Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the circumcision.

3For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.

4Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:

5Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;

6Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.

7But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.

8Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,

9And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

[James Banta]

Yes, any person that does anything that is what we would call here as being "good" has done so only because their actions can be traced back to God.

By your ***ertion that the good done by Hare Krishnas, who looks to their chants as the way to God, and the Buddhists who deny any God at all as having actions they trace to God is way out there. It shows your lack of feeling for God's word or the Way, the Truth, and the Life as he is revealed in the Bible.. I guess this means we are done doesn't it? IHS jim

[alanmolstad]

By your ***ertion that the good done by Hare Krishnas, who looks to their chants as the way to God, and the Buddhists who deny any God at all as having actions they trace to God is way out there.


way out there you say?
No Jim not really, the truth is that EVERY good thing that any human does, is ....in the end.....traceable back to God.

Think about it a while and you may find "some" truth in what Im saying...

[alanmolstad]

a story.......


A Mormon man and his wife are in their car on the road in the country.
The Mormon man has a heart attack but gets the car pulled over to the side of the road and falls over.

The Mormon wife if frantic.
She does not know what to do?
She does not know how to do CPR.

She only knows that she is alone and that her husband is dieing right in front of her.

So the Mormon wife prays to her false god, and asks her false god for him to send someone who will help her save her husband and do CPR.


Meanwhile, in heaven the true God (of the Christian church) looks down at the wife struggling with her dieing husband and hears her praying.
This true God looks around and sees a bunch of people nearby who all know CPR.

For handy!

But then the true God thinks to himself, "If only there was a Christian close by, I could use him to do something good like CPR to save this woman's husband?"....."But alas, only other Mormons around her (and as we all know I cant use Mormons to do anything good), therefore my hands are tied. Sorry lady"




ALAN, whats your point in that story?

the point is that every thing that we can justly call "good" that any person on this earth does, is in the end traceable back to God.
Every good thing that ANY of us do, regardless of our religion or lack thereof, is from God, the author of all goodness.

[James Banta]

Can you support that in scripture or are you inventing "truth"? IHS jim

[alanmolstad]

Can you support that in scripture or are you inventing "truth"? IHS jim

Thank the Lord I like to go over older forum topics looking for interesting things to read or I would have totally overlooked the fact that I was asked a question and never got around to answering it.
____________________________________________

Now the question James is asking me deals with my longer post that appears before this one.
In that longer post I was responding to a few issues dealing with God hearing and answering the prayer of a Mormon lady who has a husband in need due to health issues.

The thing that prompted my writing that story is that I take issue with a few things that I have heard from time to time on this forum (from Christians), as well as having heard the same type of thinking over the years in church from some of my christian brothers too.

So in the story I am attempting to point out that it makes God look like a silly useless person to have him up in heaven with His hands tied when He hears the prayer of a Mormon lady and has to follow some rules as to who he can send to help the lady in need........

In other words - The idea that God can only make use of "Christians" in His plans is silly......



Now what type of Bible text do I base my story on if, the situation I am talking about in my story never really came up in any Bible story directly?

I would point to - James 1:17 " Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows."
I would suggest that getting help for the lady by God is a gift, and that the people that come running to help her and save her husband are a gift sent down from above.
It does not matter a hoot that the person who is sent and saves her husband is also Mormon.



Acts 10:35
"but accepts from every nation the one who fears him and does what is right".
I would suggest that the "nation" in this verse is also talking about people from vastly different faiths too....not just distance from where "Theophilus" happen to live.
I suggest that you can live far from where the church has reached, but still right next to where God is, because God is with all men regardless of where among the far nations they live.

So the verse is also teaching that God reaches people and moves their hearts, regardless if they ever are reached by a missionary from the Christian church.

Romans 1:19
"since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them"I would suggest that this verse is also teaching that God reaches out all the time, and moves the non-Christian's heart to do what is right....regardless of the physical distance the lost person is from the nearest christian missionary.
This is why the christian church finds much success when its missionary does reach a nation that is new to hearing the Good News, because God has always been there all this time preparing the hearts of the people to receive the Good News.
So even when we are talking about a confirmed Mormon, we still have to understand that God is not helpless to reach out to this Mormon person, and move them to do good....
The words in the verse "God made it plain to them" confirm that God is very busy working in the lives of people regardless of their current religion.

Romans 2:15
"They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.")
I would suggest that this verse is also teaching and supporting my story main idea.
I know that no man can do what the Law demands without the help of the lord in his life...So when this verse talks about men being not under the law, (Not a Christian) and yet still doing what the Law requires it is because the law is in their heart already.
It is my suggestion that this is not an accident...but is the result of God's work in their heart,,,for you can't follow the law unless God is in your heart.



I could go on and on, as there are a lot more verses to pick from that are the influence I used to write the story.
But this seems to me to be enough to show what was in my heart when I wrote my story...and how the aim of my story is well supported in the Scriptures.

[Libby]

the point is that every thing that we can justly call "good" that any person on this earth does, is in the end traceable back to God.
Every good thing that ANY of us do, regardless of our religion or lack thereof, is from God, the author of all goodness.

This and your follow up with scripture is excellent, Alan. Very interesting, indeed.

[RealFakeHair]

I'd go crazy trying to understand God's way. I never look at what He does as good or bad, it is called Providence.

[alanmolstad]

This and your follow up with scripture is excellent, Alan. Very interesting, indeed.Thanks,I try...

Except for you, I doubt my efforts were noticed...LOL

[alanmolstad]

This and your follow up with scripture is excellent, Alan. Very interesting, indeed.

if you ever have any questions, or have a different issue with "stuff"...let me know.

[Libby]

Thanks, Alan.

Do you consider yourself an Arminian? Or any other "label" of Christian?

[alanmolstad]

Thanks, Alan.

Do you consider yourself an Arminian? Or any other "label" of Christian?

I used to have a link to a BIBLE ANSWER MAN show where Walter Martin talked about his views on thr 5-points of Calvinism...

Walter taught that some points were true, while some points were incorrect.
I find my views are the same as Walter's

[alanmolstad]

Libby, due to the number of new posts forum growing all the time along with new adding of members...and the fact the for some unknown reason I have been getting that '404" message sometimes when I come to this site.....please forgive me if I have not responded to a question of comment...

Got issues here.....

[Libby]

I used to have a link to a BIBLE ANSWER MAN show where Walter Martin talked about his views on thr 5-points of Calvinism...

Walter taught that some points were true, while some points were incorrect.
I find my views are the same as Walter's

Hmm, I hadn't heard that. I'm not sure how one could regard only "some" of the five points, as true. They all kind of go together and are based on God's sovereignty. I'll have to look into it. My husband and I attend a Calvinist Church, as I've probably mentioned. Christian Reformed. I like the people and the Pastor, but I'm not in alignment with all of their beliefs.

[Libby]

Libby, due to the number of new posts forum growing all the time along with new adding of members...and the fact the for some unknown reason I have been getting that '404" message sometimes when I come to this site.....please forgive me if I have not responded to a question of comment...

Got issues here.....

No worries. I'm sorry you're having issues. I know how annoying that can be.

[alanmolstad]

Hmm, I hadn't heard that. I'm not sure how one could regard only "some" of the five points, as true. They all kind of go together and are based on God's sovereignty. I'll have to look into it. My husband and I attend a Calvinist Church, as I've probably mentioned. Christian Reformed. I like the people and the Pastor, but I'm not in alignment with all of their beliefs.
what I have found true on the issue is this....

People tend to paint the other side as "crazy" while at the same time turning a deaf ear to some of the valid points the other side makes....

They tend to paint each other in a way to make the other side look crazy....I think this is done because of the fact that deep-down they know their own side has a problem that they wish to hide by making the other side look bad.

What Walter martin taught is that you don't have to adopt "all" of Calvinism....There is no such "law" that you have to believe everything Calvin taught just because you share a few things with his views on a few points.



so in other words "It's ok" ....You dont have to feel bad just because you are not in alignment will all their beliefs....I sure dont.

[Phoenix]

People tend to paint the other side as "crazy" while at the same time turning a deaf ear to some of the valid points the other side makes....
They tend to paint each other in a way to make the other side look crazy....I think this is done because of the fact that deep-down they know their own side has a problem that they wish to hide by making the other side look bad.

That is kind of how I feel about how some anti-LDS operate, and why they use the rhetoric they use.

[Libby]

That is kind of how I feel about how some anti-LDS operate, and why they use the rhetoric they use.

Yes, I think that's a valid comparison.

[alanmolstad]

on a more personal note:

You are the type of independent thinking Christian I have been pointing to in many topics with the Mormons over this whole winter.

The Mormons I have been talking to on the forum seem to have a big issue with a person studying the Bible on their own, and not following lock-step some official church teaching.
But I dont fear this at all.

I think you are an example of the way people are supposed to be.

We are supposed to be responsible for what we personally believe.
we are to not just allow some governing body to vote on things, and then we just blindly follow this week's voting results like it fell from Heaven or something.

We are to take everything we are taught, and compare it to the Bible.

And we are to not be afraid that we might come to a different conclusion too.

We are to seek the Lord, and regardless of where this leads us, we are to open the bible and seek him .
For we have His word that if we seek him will will find him.


We may not find him right away,,,,sometimes we dont find him for years and years.

But the example we are given in ACTS 17:11 is our only guide in seeking truth.

and we are to seek truth "each day"

[Libby]

what I have found true on the issue is this....

People tend to paint the other side as "crazy" while at the same time turning a deaf ear to some of the valid points the other side makes....

They tend to paint each other in a way to make the other side look crazy....I think this is done because of the fact that deep-down they know their own side has a problem that they wish to hide by making the other side look bad.

What Walter martin taught is that you don't have to adopt "all" of Calvinism....There is no such "law" that you have to believe everything Calvin taught just because you share a few things with his views on a few points.



so in other words "It's ok" ....You dont have to feel bad just because you are not in alignment will all their beliefs....I sure dont.

Oops, sorry, I intended to respond to this, Alan. I really appreciate your saying this. That's what my husband keeps telling me, as well. That it's okay to not embrace every single thing they believe. I accept the general spirit in which they worship and definitely the basics. I probably won't ever join this church, though, because I just haven't felt inclined to join a church, again, since I left the LDS Church.

[Libby]

on a more personal note:

You are the type of independent thinking Christian I have been pointing to in many topics with the Mormons over this whole winter.

The Mormons I have been talking to on the forum seem to have a big issue with a person studying the Bible on their own, and not following lock-step some official church teaching.
But I dont fear this at all.

I think you are an example of the way people are supposed to be.

We are supposed to be responsible for what we personally believe.
we are to not just allow some governing body to vote on things, and then we just blindly follow this week's voting results like it fell from Heaven or something.

We are to take everything we are taught, and compare it to the Bible.

And we are to not be afraid that we might come to a different conclusion too.

We are to seek the Lord, and regardless of where this leads us, we are to open the bible and seek him .
For we have His word that if we seek him will will find him.


We may not find him right away,,,,sometimes we dont find him for years and years.

But the example we are given in ACTS 17:11 is our only guide in seeking truth.

and we are to seek truth "each day"

Not sure if you were talking about me, but I definitely agree with you, here. Most Christians want you to read the Bible (which is great!) but then get really picky about how you interpret it. It must be there way or not at all!

I appreciate your open-mindedness on this. It's pretty rare, as you probably already know.

[James Banta]

Not sure if you were talking about me, but I definitely agree with you, here. Most Christians want you to read the Bible (which is great!) but then get really picky about how you interpret it. It must be there way or not at all!

I appreciate your open-mindedness on this. It's pretty rare, as you probably already know.

In order to seek truth as Alan is recommending you must believe in the total truth of the Bible.. There is no reason to seek truth from a doubtful record. Are you really home Libby? Have you given up the wisdom of men and become ready to conform to the wisdom and knowledge of God? Feeling were never what the Bereans saught in Acts 17:11. They went to the scriptures to see if the message they were given was the truth.. They didn't pray and hope to get a feeling.. IHS jim

[James Banta]

Thank the Lord I like to go over older forum topics looking for interesting things to read or I would have totally overlooked the fact that I was asked a question and never got around to answering it.
____________________________________________

Now the question James is asking me deals with my longer post that appears before this one.
In that longer post I was responding to a few issues dealing with God hearing and answering the prayer of a Mormon lady who has a husband in need due to health issues.

The thing that prompted my writing that story is that I take issue with a few things that I have heard from time to time on this forum (from Christians), as well as having heard the same type of thinking over the years in church from some of my christian brothers too.

So in the story I am attempting to point out that it makes God look like a silly useless person to have him up in heaven with His hands tied when He hears the prayer of a Mormon lady and has to follow some rules as to who he can send to help the lady in need........

In other words - The idea that God can only make use of "Christians" in His plans is silly......



Now what type of Bible text do I base my story on if, the situation I am talking about in my story never really came up in any Bible story directly?

I would point to - James 1:17 " Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows."
I would suggest that getting help for the lady by God is a gift, and that the people that come running to help her and save her husband are a gift sent down from above.
It does not matter a hoot that the person who is sent and saves her husband is also Mormon.



Acts 10:35
"but accepts from every nation the one who fears him and does what is right".
I would suggest that the "nation" in this verse is also talking about people from vastly different faiths too....not just distance from where "Theophilus" happen to live.
I suggest that you can live far from where the church has reached, but still right next to where God is, because God is with all men regardless of where among the far nations they live.

So the verse is also teaching that God reaches people and moves their hearts, regardless if they ever are reached by a missionary from the Christian church.

Romans 1:19
"since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them"I would suggest that this verse is also teaching that God reaches out all the time, and moves the non-Christian's heart to do what is right....regardless of the physical distance the lost person is from the nearest christian missionary.
This is why the christian church finds much success when its missionary does reach a nation that is new to hearing the Good News, because God has always been there all this time preparing the hearts of the people to receive the Good News.
So even when we are talking about a confirmed Mormon, we still have to understand that God is not helpless to reach out to this Mormon person, and move them to do good....
The words in the verse "God made it plain to them" confirm that God is very busy working in the lives of people regardless of their current religion.

Romans 2:15
"They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.")
I would suggest that this verse is also teaching and supporting my story main idea.
I know that no man can do what the Law demands without the help of the lord in his life...So when this verse talks about men being not under the law, (Not a Christian) and yet still doing what the Law requires it is because the law is in their heart already.
It is my suggestion that this is not an accident...but is the result of God's work in their heart,,,for you can't follow the law unless God is in your heart.



I could go on and on, as there are a lot more verses to pick from that are the influence I used to write the story.
But this seems to me to be enough to show what was in my heart when I wrote my story...and how the aim of my story is well supported in the Scriptures.

God may give His grace to whom He wills.. He may even answer a prayer offered to Baal. Then again He may ignore it since the faith the prayer is offered in is directed to a false God.. I didn't see any of your p***ages that addressed that point.. If we call on a false God, don't think that the one true God will answer. (1 Kings 18) IHS jim

[alanmolstad]

Its a mistake to think that God does not get his mail, just because we addressed it incorrectly.
That is one of the arguments made by the Yahweh-Only people...
http://www.yrm.org/morethananame.htm

I quote-
" You cannot worship properly without using His proper, personal Name. His Name defines the Father as well as the one worship that is uniquely His. The only True Worship in the Bible is done in and through His revealed Name. "

I totally reject this whole line of thinking...

why do I?

I reject it because the bible is very clear in describing a God who loves people, even they who do not know him or love him in return.

For He maketh His sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.



But there is within some corners this odd manner of thinking that "God cant hear their prayers"
There are people of faith that believe this about God being unable to even hear the prayer of others who are so different....
And they get angry when some people (such as myself) suggest that God does hear all prayers...."Luke 4:28"

[James Banta]

Its a mistake to think that God does not get his mail, just because we addressed it incorrectly.
That is one of the arguments made by the Yahweh-Only people...
http://www.yrm.org/morethananame.htm

I quote-
" You cannot worship properly without using His proper, personal Name. His Name defines the Father as well as the one worship that is uniquely His. The only True Worship in the Bible is done in and through His revealed Name. "

I totally reject this whole line of thinking...

why do I?

I reject it because the bible is very clear in describing a God who loves people, even they who do not know him or love him in return.

For He maketh His sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.



But there is within some corners this odd manner of thinking that "God cant hear their prayers"
There are people of faith that believe this about God being unable to even hear the prayer of others who are so different....
And they get angry when some people (such as myself) suggest that God does hear all prayers...."Luke 4:28"

I am not talking about using a different name.. I am not talking about God not sending all men blessings. I am not even talking about God not being able to bless those He wills to bless.. I am saying that people who deny His being as He has presented it, haven't a right to believe that if they ask anything of Him that he will give it to them.. He can do so if through His grace He decides to do so, or He may just ignore their pleas as He did the priests of Baal at the test on Mt Carmel.. What I refuse to do is to put chains on God.. He will bless who He wished to bless and curse those He wishes to curse..

As long as the LDS make the God of ALL creation a voice in the choir of many Gods like Himself instead of being the ONLY God. The God that has been God from everlasting to everlasting, and not a God who was once a man the creation of another and older God such as He is now, they are polytheistic unbelievers and may not expect any answer to their prayers.. (John 14:12-14) IHS jim

[alanmolstad]

I am not talking about using a different name.. I am not talking about God not sending all men blessings. I am not even talking about God not being able to bless those He wills to bless.. I am saying that people who deny His being as He has presented it have to right to believe that if they ask anything of Him that he will give it to them.. He can if through His grace He decides to do so, or He may just ignore their pleas as He did the priests of Baal at the test on Mt Carmel.. IHS jim

What I have seen true is that none of us can believe for a moment that we have a "right" to expect that whatever we pray for, we shall receive......

It just dont work like that.....(2 Corinthians 12:9)

[James Banta]

What I have seen true is that none of us can believe for a moment that we have a "right" to expect that whatever we pray for, we shall receive......

It just dont work like that.....(2 Corinthians 12:9)

It does look like that.. As our faith in Jesus grows we become more and more conformed to Him.. If we have faith in Him we want what He wants and then we ask whatever we will and He will do it.. I know you really don't disagree.. IHS jim

[alanmolstad]

2 Corinthians 12:9

[James Banta]

2 Corinthians 12:9

Please explain how the truth that in our infirmities, the power of Christ rest on us has anything to do with having a "right" to expect that whatever we pray for, we shall receive? Remember This is contingent on holding real life changing faith in Him.. IHS jim

[alanmolstad]

Please explain how the truth that in our infirmities, the power of Christ rest on us has anything to do with having a "right" to expect that whatever we pray for, we shall receive? Remember This is contingent on holding real life changing faith in Him.. IHS jim


I dont understand your wording ....

I dont understand what point you make here, or what I should respond to...

[Libby]

I used to have a link to a BIBLE ANSWER MAN show where Walter Martin talked about his views on thr 5-points of Calvinism...

Walter taught that some points were true, while some points were incorrect.
I find my views are the same as Walter's

Btw, I wanted you to know that I did some research on Walter Martin (regarding his religious affiliations) and he did call himself a "Cal-minion", as he held to some of the principles of both Arminianism and Calvinism.

Found this from one of his followers:

"My mentor, the late Dr. Walter Martin called himself a "Cal-Minion because he believed in some of both Calvin and Wesley's peripheral views about salvation and eternal security."

http://www.ericbarger.com/calvinvsarminian.htm

And this, on predestination (which he simply considered a "mystery").

http://www.blogtalkradio.com/waltermartindotcom/2013/04/21/the-mystery-of-predestination

[alanmolstad]

Btw,

BTW.....I want to thank you for the links.....they are now bookmarked here...LOL

[Libby]

You're very welcome. :)

[Apologette]

You're very welcome. :)

So, while you were researching all that did you happen to note what he taught about the cult of Mormonism? Have you ever repented of believing in the false doctrines of Joseph Smith - gotten down on your knees and confessed that sin? Called out for mercy?

[Phoenix]

Btw, I wanted you to know that I did some research on Walter Martin (regarding his religious affiliations) and he did call himself a "Cal-minion", as he held to some of the principles of both Arminianism and Calvinism.

Found this from one of his followers:
"My mentor, the late Dr. Walter Martin called himself a "Cal-Minion because he believed in some of both Calvin and Wesley's peripheral views about salvation and eternal security."
http://www.ericbarger.com/calvinvsarminian.htm
And this, on predestination (which he simply considered a "mystery").
http://www.blogtalkradio.com/waltermartindotcom/2013/04/21/the-mystery-of-predestination

Kudos for doing that research.

[Libby]

Thanks, Phoenix.

I had to look that up, because I really thought Walter Martin was a Calvinist. Turns out Alan was right.

[James Banta]

Thanks, Phoenix.

I had to look that up, because I really thought Walter Martin was a Calvinist. Turns out Alan was right.

He didn't hold to all five points of Calvinism because he didn't see them supported in the Bible.. OK there is no commandment found in the Bible believe in the teachings of Calvin and you will be saved.. There is also no commandment that says "if you believe in the 5 points of Calvinism you will be ****ed.. Is there? BUT there is a commandment that requires that we Believe in God as He is explained in the scripture, and that through holding faith in Jesus we gain forgiveness of our sin.

The Bible teaches us that God is invisible, That Jesus is His tangible image. That God grants His grace unto salvation to all who believe in Jesus. It is true that God loves the whole of the world enough to give His Son so that we can all have eternal life.. Still it is true that many will not respond to His love.. Does God know who that are, who they would be even before they were ever born? YES, and yet being true to His just nature He allows them to exist.. If he knows the good from the evil, from before the beginning, why is choosing only those He knew would respond to the message of life for salvation an evil belief? Yet that is the position you seem to hate for severely among all the points of Calvinism..

My goodness this isn't like Dr Martin taught that Calvin was a heretic because he believed in 3 Gods for this world, or that there are an infinite number of Gods that fill the immensity of the eternal universe.. I guess it's worse that that sort of polytheistic lies. Calvin taught that God knows all things and has since before the world was created.. HOW DARE HE TEACH THAT SORT OF BLASPHEMY. To believe God knows all things.. He will surely find himself in hell for holding such a doctrine about God, yeah right.. It's not bad enough that the mormonism would have trouble with God being OMNISCIENT; come on Alan engage your brain.. IHS jim

[BigJulie]

He didn't hold to all five points of Calvinism because he didn't see them supported in the Bible.. OK there is no commandment found in the Bible believe in the teachings of Calvin and you will be saved.. There is also no commandment that says "if you believe in the 5 points of Calvinism you will be ****ed.. Is there? BUT there is a commandment that requires that we Believe in God as He is explained in the scripture, and that through holding faith in Jesus we gain forgiveness of our sin.

The Bible teaches us that God is invisible, That Jesus is His tangible image. That God grants His grace unto salvation to all who believe in Jesus. It is true that God loves the whole of the world enough to give His Son so that we can all have eternal life.. Still it is true that many will not respond to His love.. Does God know who that are, who they would be even before they were ever born? YES, and yet being true to His just nature He allows them to exist.. If he knows the good from the evil, from before the beginning, why is choosing only those He knew would respond to the message of life for salvation an evil belief? Yet that is the position you seem to hate for severely among all the points of Calvinism.. IHS jim

These basic disagreements are precisely why the witness of the Holy Ghost is needed and without it, you will never be "one" with God. You can't truly know God without the Holy Ghost.

The Bible does not teach that Jesus Christ is the "tangible image" of God the Father. The Bible teaches us that Christ is the express image of the Father and IS His Son.

[Phoenix]

He didn't hold to all five points of Calvinism because he didn't see them supported in the Bible..
And doing so didn't keep him from being saved, correct? So if LDS people don't see Trinitarianism supported in the Bible, it won't keep them from being saved.


OK there is no commandment found in the Bible believe in the teachings of Calvin and you will be saved.. There is also no commandment that says "if you believe in the 5 points of Calvinism you will be ****ed.. Is there? BUT there is a commandment that requires that we Believe in God as He is explained in the scripture, and that through holding faith in Jesus we gain forgiveness of our sin.
It says that by repenting and being baptized, we can gain remission of our sins.
It also says that by obeying Christ's commandments, we can gain eternal life.


It is true that God loves the whole of the world enough to give His Son so that we can all have eternal life.. Still it is true that many will not respond to His love.
What if someone has faith in His Son, repents and gets baptized, and promises to follow His commandments, but that person doesn't see see Trinitarianism supported in the Bible? Does that really mean the person didn't respond to His love, and therefore can't be saved?

[James Banta]

I dont understand your wording ....

I dont understand what point you make here, or what I should respond to...

Then don't.. It makes sense to me.. I will never understand how it doesn't to you.. IHS jim

[James Banta]

Btw, I wanted you to know that I did some research on Walter Martin (regarding his religious affiliations) and he did call himself a "Cal-minion", as he held to some of the principles of both Arminianism and Calvinism.

Found this from one of his followers:

"My mentor, the late Dr. Walter Martin called himself a "Cal-Minion because he believed in some of both Calvin and Wesley's peripheral views about salvation and eternal security."

http://www.ericbarger.com/calvinvsarminian.htm

And this, on predestination (which he simply considered a "mystery").

http://www.blogtalkradio.com/waltermartindotcom/2013/04/21/the-mystery-of-predestination

By your understanding then Dr Martin did accept the doctrine of predestination.. A doctrine that mormonism objects to most stringently.. IHS jim

[alanmolstad]

What if someone has faith in His Son, repents and gets baptized, and promises to follow His commandments, but that person doesn't see see Trinitarianism supported in the Bible? Does that really mean the person didn't respond to His love, and therefore can't be saved?

If the person had responded in love,then the light of Christ will draw him closer and closer.