What does it take for complete forgiveness?

[Billyray]

"In Mormonism, to be forgiven of a particular sin by the atonement, you must successfully stop that sin permanently. In order to be forgiven of all sin you must successfully stop all sin permanently."
Mark Champneys http://www.mormonsneedhope.com/

Do LDS agree with Mark's statement?

[James Banta]

It shall come to p*** that every soul who forsaketh his sins and cometh unto me, and calleth on my name, and obeyeth my voice, and keepeth my commandments, shall see my face and know that I am (D&C93:1)

By this ye may know if a man repenteth of his sins—behold, he will confess them and forsake them (D&C 58:43)

We are to confess all our sins to our Heavenly Father. If we forsake these sins, he will forgive (D&C 61:2)

It is quite clear that the LDS church teaches that unless a person forsakes their sins they can't be forgiven yet I have never met a single member of the LDS church that will tell me that they have forsaken sinning. Each one tells me that they are doing the best they can, or the goodie "I'm working on it". It is interesting to know that they are working on it instead of confessing to God that they are sinners and need Him to recreate in them a new creation that has the righteousness of Jesus. Mormonism refuses to admit that sin still lives in the body of death we all walk in. That we do that we would not and don't do that we would, thereby truly following Paul in that admission (Romans 7:19).. We have all sinned Christian have agreed with God and know that we are unworthy in ourselves for the blessings and gifts of God. But in Jesus we are more than conquerors.. If we had to wait to receive God's forgiveness until we had forsaken our sins not one person would ever be forgiven and we would all end up in the lake of fire.. Thank You Lord Jesus for giving those of us who will trust in You Your salvation and the right to be Your Child.. There is no way to praise You enough.. IHS jim

[Snow Patrol]

"In Mormonism, to be forgiven of a particular sin by the atonement, you must successfully stop that sin permanently. In order to be forgiven of all sin you must successfully stop all sin permanently."
Mark Champneys http://www.mormonsneedhope.com/

Do LDS agree with Mark's statement?


It really would help in answering this statement to have an idea of what non-LDS Christians believe about forgiveness. Does forgiveness of a particular sin come to non-LDS Christians because they confess and ask for forgiveness all the while continuing in that particular sin? Can someone be forgiven of adultery while they still participate in it?

In answer to your question, yes, I believe that true repentence of a particular sin comes when we have forsaken that particular sin.

[Billyray]

In answer to your question, yes, I believe that true repentence of a particular sin comes when we have forsaken that particular sin.

Thanks for your honesty.

"In Mormonism, to be forgiven of a particular sin by the atonement, you must successfully stop that sin permanently. In order to be forgiven of all sin you must successfully stop all sin permanently."

If you look at the ramifications of this statement it means that in order to be totally forgiven requires a sin free life. This raises the question, can anyone meet this standard?

[nrajeff]

If you look at the ramifications of this statement it means that in order to be totally forgiven requires a sin free life.
---To become a forgiven murderer, I'd say that it's common sense that you must stop murdering people, as a starter. Do you disagree?


This raises the question, can anyone meet this standard?
--CHRISTIAN doctrine is that virtually ANYONE can be forgiven except sons of perdition. Do you disagree?

Moroni wrote: "...if ye by the grace of God are perfect in Christ, and deny not his power, then are ye sanctified in Christ by the grace of God, through the shedding of the blood of Christ, which is in the covenant of the Father unto the remission of your sins, that ye become holy, without spot."

LDS believe that thanks to God's grace and Jesus' atonement, it IS possible for people to forsake ANY sin if the want it badly enough and they ask God for help. Do you disagree?

[Billyray]

To become a forgiven murderer, I'd say that it's common sense that you must stop murdering people, as a starter. Do you disagree?
I disagree because according to Mormonism you can't be forgiven of murder.

D and C 42:18 "And now, behold, I speak unto the church. Thou shalt not kill; and he that kills shall not have forgiveness in this world, nor in the world to come."



LDS believe that thanks to God's grace and Jesus' atonement, it IS possible for people to forsake ANY sin if the want it badly enough and they ask God for help.

I agree with you that this is the LDS position that you are capable of keeping all of the commandments if it is something that you really want to do.

1 Nephi 3:7 "7 And it came to p*** that I, Nephi, said unto my father: I will go and do the things which the Lord hath commanded, for I know that the Lord giveth no commandments unto the children of men, save he shall prepare a way for them that they may accomplish the thing which he commandeth them."

So this brings us back to the original quote:

"In Mormonism, to be forgiven of a particular sin by the atonement, you must successfully stop that sin permanently. In order to be forgiven of all sin you must successfully stop all sin permanently."

It appears that you agree with the quote above? Yes or No?

[James Banta]

---To become a forgiven murderer, I'd say that it's common sense that you must stop murdering people, as a starter. Do you disagree?


--CHRISTIAN doctrine is that virtually ANYONE can be forgiven except sons of perdition. Do you disagree?

Moroni wrote: "...if ye by the grace of God are perfect in Christ, and deny not his power, then are ye sanctified in Christ by the grace of God, through the shedding of the blood of Christ, which is in the covenant of the Father unto the remission of your sins, that ye become holy, without spot."

LDS believe that thanks to God's grace and Jesus' atonement, it IS possible for people to forsake ANY sin if the want it badly enough and they ask God for help. Do you disagree?

According to the LAW Jesus gave us concerning murder we can repent of Murder but still be committing it.. Most people don't even feel they have committed it at all.. Not being in agreement with Jesus on that fact is also sin.. The sin is then compounded.. Do you recall what jeus said about this sin?

Matthew 5:22
But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
Rather hard not to be seen by God to be a murderer now doesn't? Are you sure that you have repented of murder each time you have gotten angry over nothing? IHS jim

[nrajeff]

I disagree because according to Mormonism you can't be forgiven of murder.
----So you disagree that stopping your murdering is a fundamental ingredient of becoming a forgiven murderer?


D and C 42:18 "And now, behold, I speak unto the church. Thou shalt not kill; and he that kills shall not have forgiveness in this world, nor in the world to come."
--Uh, that extra-high standard is for LDS people. If you ain't LDS, you don't need to worry, you can go out and murder people and still have the possibility of being forgiven of murder, until you DO become LDS. Because LDS are expected to at least be able to refrain from murdering people--it's not that hard a thing to keep from doing. So go out and murder if you want to, all you non-LDS, happy in the knowledge that it's possible for you to be forgiven. But I still think God will want you to STOP murdering at some point before He will forgive you, otherwise you'll be making a big joke of the whole gospel and He would not like that.


I agree with you that this is the LDS position that you are capable of keeping all of the commandments if it is something that you really want to do.
--Sure. The commandment to REPENT is one of the commandments. Are you saying that's a commandment you're unable to obey?


So this brings us back to the original quote:

"In Mormonism, to be forgiven of a particular sin by the atonement, you must successfully stop that sin permanently. In order to be forgiven of all sin you must successfully stop all sin permanently."

It appears that you agree with the quote above? Yes or No?

---You can guess my answer to that one by just thinking and using common sense:
Will ANY unforgiven person make it to God's presence in the afterlife? If no, then everyone who ends up there must be forgiven at some point before then. If you make it to heaven, will you continue to sin? If no, then logic says that at some point before you get there, you will have successfully STOPPED sinning. Seems that stopping your sinning is kind of important to God. I like common sense and logic, so I am voting "I agree." How about you? Disagree, perhaps?

[Billyray]

----So you disagree that stopping your murdering is a fundamental ingredient of becoming a forgiven murderer?



D and C 42:18 "And now, behold, I speak unto the church. Thou shalt not kill; and he that kills shall not have forgiveness in this world, nor in the world to come."


Jeff, I didn't realize that a murderer could be forgiven under LDS theology. When did this change?

[Billyray]

"In Mormonism, to be forgiven of a particular sin by the atonement, you must successfully stop that sin permanently. In order to be forgiven of all sin you must successfully stop all sin permanently."


---You can guess my answer to that one by just thinking and using common sense:
Will ANY unforgiven person make it to God's presence in the afterlife? If no, then everyone who ends up there must be forgiven at some point before then.
So your answer is you agree with the OP quote? Correct? It would of been much easier for both of us if you simply would have said that you agree with it like Snow Patrol did.

[nrajeff]

According to the LAW Jesus gave us concerning murder we can repent of Murder but still be committing it..
---You must have a different definition of "repent" than I do. I thought "repent" meant to TURN AWAY FROM a sin. You think Jesus is cool with you NOT turning away from it. I think you are mistaken.


Most people don't even feel they have committed it at all..
---Most murderers don't feel they have committed murder? I dunno about that claim. It might be true, if most murderers are psychotic sociopaths.


Not being in agreement with Jesus on that fact is also sin..
---Then you'd better start agreeing with Jesus on all the issues where I think you clearly disagree with Him....


The sin is then compounded.. Do you recall what jeus said about this sin?
--About the sin of murder? Or about the sin of getting angry or the sin of calling someone a fool--which you are about to equate with murder instead of compare it to murder like you SHOULD be doing?


But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
---If calling someone else a fool really is murder, then edit has some serial killers: Paul D, Brian, Yak, Theo....in fact, if they say that all LDS people are fools, then they have committed 11 million murders, which makes them worse than Hitler, who only caused the murder of 6 million to 8 million people. Wow, Jim, you just accused your @arm pals of being worse murderers than HITLER! What are they gonna think about THAT!? :eek::eek:

[Libby]

That verse is talking about "brothers"...brothers in Christ...not just any "fool". ;)

[nrajeff]

That verse is talking about "brothers"...brothers in Christ...not just any "fool". ;)

---You're REALLY going with that revisionist definition? Really? Or do you know better and were just joking? Please don't tell me that you've swallowed that whole "Jesus only said that one CHRISTIAN shouldn't sue another CHRISTIAN" nonsense.

[Libby]

---You're REALLY going with that revisionist definition? Really? Or do you know better and were just joking? Please don't tell me that you've swallowed that whole "Jesus only said that one CHRISTIAN shouldn't sue another CHRISTIAN" nonsense.

Revisionist definition? Don't know what you mean.

The verse you quoted actually does refer to "brothers"...and the meaning is well known.

I don't think everything Jesus told us was only in reference to brothers in Christ, no.

[nrajeff]

Revisionist definition? Don't know what you mean.
--I mean the lame-o EXCUSE that some Evangelicals invented so they don't have to obey Jesus' commandment to love EVERYONE, to do good to EVERYONE, to treat EVERYONE as you'd want to be treated. Noooo, "what Jesus REALLY meant, if you read the invisible-ink fine print, is that it's OKAY to frivolously take other people to court, and to mock them and call them fools....as long as you feel they aren't fellow CHRISTIANS."

So you've never heard of that re-definition? WHat a sheltered life you have led. Or "lead." Whichever is correct.


The verse you quoted actually does refer to "brothers"...and the meaning is well known.
--The CORRECT meaning is NOT so well known, it seems. Jesus TRIED to teach that His disciples should consider EVERYONE their brother or sister. Apparently, some of you didn't get His memo and are still lost as to what He wanted you to learn, behavior-wise. You're still seeing qualifiers and disclaimers that exempt you from treating EVERYONE the way Jesus actually wants you to treat them.

Of course, that revisionism gets you into a bit of trouble when it breaks down and falls apart, such as when Jesus commands you, as a Christian, to be kind to your persecutors and those who hate and revile you. Hmmm, so Christians are persecuting, hating, and reviling other Christians? That is the only logical conclusion, once you jump on the "We're only supposed to be nice to fellow Christians" bandwagon.

[James Banta]

[nrajeff;67306]---You must have a different definition of "repent" than I do. I thought "repent" meant to TURN AWAY FROM a sin. You think Jesus is cool with you NOT turning away from it. I think you are mistaken.

I insist that while I was still dead in my sins Jesus died for me. He took my sins then. When I realized my place before Him and what he had done for me I repented turning from sin at least in my new creation.. But like Paul the apostle, I still rushed to those things I hate and won't do those things I should (Romans 7:19).. Have you come to that level of obedience that even Paul could manage?


---Then you'd better start agreeing with Jesus on all the issues where I think you clearly disagree with Him....
So instead of yielding to the Holy Spirit as to how I should follow my Lord I should abandon Him and do what YOU think is right.. That isn't going to happen!!!


--About the sin of murder? Or about the sin of getting angry or the sin of calling someone a fool--which you are about to equate with murder instead of compare it to murder like you SHOULD be doing?
Here you are telling me what is right instead of listening to the Holy Spirit.. The p***age in Matthew 5 is clear.. Whoever treats another in this way is guilty of murder.. You can question this if you like I call it a commandment that all of us have broken. We all stained with blood as seen through the eyes of God.. We are all just as guilty of sin before a Holy God as a murderer is guilty.. These things that don't seem that serious are seen equal with the most serious sin before God.. There is no escape, you are a sinner before God guilty of these horrible sins the same as any other man. Some of us recognize that sin and have turned from it.. Our trouble is that I must walk in this body death. But it is no longer I that sins but sin that lives in me (Romans 7:17)



---If calling someone else a fool really is murder, then edit has some serial killers: Paul D, Brian, Yak, Theo....in fact, if they say that all LDS people are fools, then they have committed 11 million murders, which makes them worse than Hitler, who only caused the murder of 6 million to 8 million people. Wow, Jim, you just accused your @arm pals of being worse murderers than HITLER! What are they gonna think about THAT!? :eek::eek:

I don't have to tell any Christian I know that they are all in serious sin. Each one I know has given it to Jesus. Never the less they like me still live in the flesh and the sin is the ruler of the flesh..

edit IHS jim

[Billyray]

"In Mormonism, to be forgiven of a particular sin by the atonement, you must successfully stop that sin permanently. In order to be forgiven of all sin you must successfully stop all sin permanently."

If this statement is true would any LDS on this board (or anywhere else) qualify for exaltation today?

[nrajeff]

"In Mormonism, to be forgiven of a particular sin by the atonement, you must successfully stop that sin permanently. In order to be forgiven of all sin you must successfully stop all sin permanently."

If this statement is true would any LDS on this board (or anywhere else) qualify for exaltation today?

---Who says that any of us qualifies for it today? I expect a LONG time between when I die and Judgment Day--which is at least 1000 years away-- where I hope God will continue to help me "overcome the world" as Jesus talked about His disciples doing. I believe Jesus.

So ask me in 1000 years whether God has helped me overcome. I think He is able to help me overcome all my sins in that much time. If you doubt His ability to do that, you can file a complaint with His office.

Maybe you'd believe CS Lewis over me:

"He will make the feeblest and filthiest of us into a god or goddess, dazzling, radiant, immortal creatures, pulsating all through with such energy and joy and wisdom and love as we cannot now imagine, a bright stainless mirror which reflects back to Him perfectly (though, of course, on a smaller scale) His own boundless power and delight and goodness. The process will be long and in parts very painful; but that is what we are in for. Nothing less. He meant what he said."

[Billyray]

---Who says that any of us qualifies for it today? I expect a LONG time between when I die and Judgment Day--which is at least 1000 years away-- where I hope God will continue to help me "overcome the world" as Jesus talked about His disciples doing. I believe Jesus.
So your game plan is to procrastinate the day of your repentance? Jeff this is not a great idea.


Alma 34:32"For behold, this life is the time for men to prepare to meet God; yea, behold the day of this life is the day for men to perform their labors. ...I beseech of you that ye do not procrastinate the day of your repentance until the end; for after this day of life, which is given us to prepare for eternity, behold, if we do not improve our time while in this life, then cometh the night of darkness wherein there can be no labor performed. Ye cannot say, when ye are brought to that awful crisis, that I will repent, that I will return to my God. Nay, ye cannot say this; for that same spirit which doth possess your bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal world. For behold, if ye have procrastinated the day of your repentance even until death, behold, ye have become subjected to the spirit of the devil, and he doth seal you his; therefore, the Spirit of the Lord hath withdrawn from you, and hath no place in you, and the devil hath all power over you; and this is the final state of the wicked."


Now Jeff you don't want to be sealed to the devil, now do you?

[nrajeff]

And we have succeeded in getting Billyray to preach from the Book of Mormon, citing it as an authoritative source of authentic Christian doctrine.



Our work here is done, it seems!

[James Banta]

And we have succeeded in getting Billyray to preach from the Book of Mormon, citing it as an authoritative source of authentic Christian doctrine.



Our work here is done, it seems!

Ok, you haven't repented of sin until you turn away from it and forsake it 100%. But Still you tell me that you continue to sin in other ways, right? So in fact you haven't forsaken sin at all.. In James we are told that we are guilty of all sin if we offend in just one area (James 2:10). Since, by sinning is any way you are guilty of the sin you just repented of, did your repentance count at all?

Sorry but unless you stop sinning completely your idea of repentance is worthless.. The Christians doctrine on this point seem much more logical.. If we confess our sin He is FAITHFUL AND JUST to forgive is our sin and cleanse us fro ALL UNRIGHTEOUSNESS..

There is that word again that LDS people seem to hate.. "ALL".. It says what it means not just the sin we have committed but all the sin we have and ever will commit.. ALL OF IT! That would cover the statement of James that we are 100% in sin because we have been 100% forgiven.. IHS jim

[Snow Patrol]

"In Mormonism, to be forgiven of a particular sin by the atonement, you must successfully stop that sin permanently. In order to be forgiven of all sin you must successfully stop all sin permanently."

If you look at the ramifications of this statement it means that in order to be totally forgiven requires a sin free life. This raises the question, can anyone meet this standard?

Maybe the standards are high. But I just don't see the alternative as a viable option. Jesus wants us to repent of our sins. Repentence means turning away from and if we continue doing that same sin have we really turned away from it? It just seems like lip service if we don't truly turn away from it.

I haven't seen you address my questions.

Does forgiveness of a particular sin come to non-LDS Christians because they confess and ask for forgiveness all the while continuing in that particular sin? Can someone be forgiven of adultery while they still participate in it?

[Billyray]

Maybe the standards are high. But I just don't see the alternative as a viable option.

Who meets these standards? If nobody meets the standard then nobody qualifies for exaltation. What kind of option is that?

[Billyray]

Does forgiveness of a particular sin come to non-LDS Christians because they confess and ask for forgiveness all the while continuing in that particular sin? Can someone be forgiven of adultery while they still participate in it?

We both believe that we should have faith. We both believe that we should obey the commandments. Where we differ is in how we are forgiven. For LDS they are forgiven by repentance which in the end means keeping all of the commandments. Christians also have a desire and belief that we should keep all of the commandments but our forgiveness in based on our faith in Christ for our salvation. We are justified by our faith. "Simply put, to justify is to declare righteous, to make one right with God. Justification is God’s declaring those who receive Christ to be righteous, based on Christ’s righteousness being imputed to the accounts of those who receive Christ (2 Corinthians 5:21). http://www.gotquestions.org/justification.html

Should we continue to sin because we are justified by faith? Absolutely not. Paul addresses this common false ***umption in
Romans 6:1
"1What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?"

Should we confess our sins? Of course.
1 John 1:8-9
"8If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives.

So we should not be involved in sin and we should not continue in sin. BTW this is a common argument given by LDS to try and support their position. But it is really a straw man argument in my opinion.

[akaSeerone]

When are you Mormons going to face the reality that there is nothing whatsoever Christian about Mormonism.

That is a cold hard fact....live wit it.....REPENT OR BURN.

There just are no second chances, so you need to get it right in this life or you will burn.

Andy

[Snow Patrol]

We both believe that we should have faith. We both believe that we should obey the commandments. Where we differ is in how we are forgiven. For LDS they are forgiven by repentance which in the end means keeping all of the commandments. Christians also have a desire and belief that we should keep all of the commandments but our forgiveness in based on our faith in Christ for our salvation. We are justified by our faith. "Simply put, to justify is to declare righteous, to make one right with God. Justification is God’s declaring those who receive Christ to be righteous, based on Christ’s righteousness being imputed to the accounts of those who receive Christ (2 Corinthians 5:21). http://www.gotquestions.org/justification.html

Should we continue to sin because we are justified by faith? Absolutely not. Paul addresses this common false ***umption in
Romans 6:1
"1What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?"

Should we confess our sins? Of course.
1 John 1:8-9
"8If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives.

So we should not be involved in sin and we should not continue in sin. BTW this is a common argument given by LDS to try and support their position. But it is really a straw man argument in my opinion.


"So we should not be involved in sin and we should not continue in sin."

So we should not be... and we should not continue....

That is hardly a convincing answer. So what is the state of a Christian that does continue to sin?

[Snow Patrol]

"The Christians doctrine on this point seem much more logical.. If we confess our sin He is FAITHFUL AND JUST to forgive is our sin and cleanse us fro ALL UNRIGHTEOUSNESS.."


Will Christ save you IN your sins? Is this confession a one time thing, on-going thing, or a wait till the end thing? How sorry and contrite of heart is someone who returns right back to that sin?

[JustMe]

The one lying here is you and your fellow Mormon mopologists that hopelessly try to pawn Mormonism off as Christian. You may get away with that over on Farms or Fair, but it will not be tolerated here!

Again trying to be moderator! Well, I hope that at least you've reported Jeff's gross rule-breaking to the proper authorities! :rolleyes:


You have only one choice Mormon....REPENT OR BURN.

Tut, tut Andy! Don't you know that works don't save us (you guys do believe that repentance is a work, right?)!


And I don't see the likes of you repenting, so enjoy hell. You are fighting tooth and nail to get there and you will get what you so desire.

Pity!

Andy

But how can Jeff do anything like what you're demanding unless God invades his brain and forces him to deny his current faith and accept your definition of "Christianity?"

[James Banta]

Repentance is a realizatiom of our place before a holy God.. We believe Him and what He DID (crifixtion was the work) and then we are forgiven and made His children.. All of that he does not us.. You are twisting the meaning of realization and work.. We realize He does the work! IHS jim

[JustMe]

Repentance is a realizatiom of our place before a holy God.. We believe Him and what He DID (crifixtion was the work) and then we are forgiven and made His children.. All of that he does not us.. You are twisting the meaning of realization and work.. We realize He does the work! IHS jim

From what I understand of your beliefs, we can't even realize our place before a holy God without Him doing it for us. Thus Andy's call for Jeff to repent seems, how shall we say, mis-guided.

[Snow Patrol]

From what I understand of your beliefs, we can't even realize our place before a holy God without Him doing it for us. Thus Andy's call for Jeff to repent seems, how shall we say, mis-guided.


I agree. It should actually be a supplication to God to make us repent. But I kind of think that God has had many opportunities to give me the cause to repent and leave the LDS Church but just hasn't taken the chance yet I guess. I wonder what He is waiting for?

[nrajeff]

From what I understand of your beliefs, we can't even realize our place before a holy God without Him doing it for us. Thus Andy's call for Jeff to repent seems, how shall we say, mis-guided.

---Yes, good point. Even the "If...then..." formula of
"If we confess our sin He is FAITHFUL AND JUST to forgive is our sin and cleanse us fro ALL UNRIGHTEOUSNESS.."
refutes Calvinism's "God already forgave you before you were created" nonsense.

Calvinism has to stretch all kinds of logic to make itself work:

"God predestinated you to either be elect or go to hell, and He already forgave you of all the sins you would ever commit, too. If you accept that fact, and accept Trinitarianism and Calvinism, none of THAT is of your own doing, either, since you're not allowed to play ANY part of whether you get saved or ****ed--it's all God, all the way, all the time, every time. As for all the people who end up in hell--If He'd wanted any of them saved, they wouldn't BE there--He would have saved them and then made them have faith in Trini-Calvitarianism, and made them repent and do good works."

Sorry, I can't buy that reasoning. I guess I just wasn't predestinated to buy it.

[Billyray]

So what is the state of a Christian that does continue to sin?

Snow Patrol this is a major difference between Christians and Mormons. For Christians salvation is based on your faith in Christ. For Mormons your salvation is based on faith AND your works. This is not to say that Christians do not believe in works but rather our works are a reflection of our faith. Also a new Christian will have more sin in his life than a long term Christian. Though they are positionally equal in terms of justification, they are in different places in terms of sanctification.

I understand you position with respect to works. Remember I was raised Mormon. A lot of things in life are based on our own efforts. If you want a good grade you have to work hard and study. So the idea that we are saved by faith and not by works goes against our carnal mind.

[nrajeff]

Snow Patrol this is a major difference between Christians and Mormons.
---Mormons ARE Christians like Presbyterians are Christians. They may be Arminian-leaning Christians, or Arian-leaning Christians, but that doesn't make them non-Christians, no matter how desperately you wish we weren't.


For Christians salvation is based on your faith in Christ.
---Your faith in Christ is only as good as your willingness to OBEY Him is. Jesus tried to make that plain in His teachings, but some people, beginning with Augustine, didn't want to believe it.


For Mormons your salvation is based on faith AND your works.
--Faith and OBEDIENCE to God's will.


This is not to say that Christians do not believe in works but rather our works are a reflection of our faith.
--LDS believe that the charity we show for others, like our obedience to the other commandments, are a reflection of our faith.



Also a new Christian will have more sin in his life than a long term Christian.
--Really? That's always the case? Pastor Ted was a long-term Christian.


A lot of things in life are based on our own efforts. If you want a good grade you have to work hard and study.
---Maybe that's why the Bible says that Christians need to work out their own salvation--if you sit around waiting for God to do it for you, you will be waiting a long time. Whether your faith is strong enough to result in your obedience, is based on your own efforts, but those efforts can be augmented by God if you ask Him to help you.


So the idea that we are saved by faith and not by works goes against our carnal mind.
--The idea that we can be saved by mere one-time profession of faith and telling Jesus that you accept Him as your Savior, goes against reason, logic, and the Bible.

[Billyray]

---Mormons ARE Christians like Presbyterians are Christians.

Mormons don't believe what Christians believe. Christians don't believe what Mormons believe. With rare exceptions of course.

If I believe that Joseph Smith is a false prophet who had sex with young girls. That the Book of Mormon is a book of fiction. That the modern prophets are false prophets. Would it be alright in your opinion if I called myself Mormon?

[Billyray]

--Faith and OBEDIENCE to God's will.


Jeff here lies the problem. Mormons talk a big game but they don't walk the walk. They claim that their exaltation is based on their faith and obedience, yet they don't do it. You don't even live up to your own standards. If you die today can you honestly say that you will be exalted?

[nrajeff]

Mormons don't believe what Christians believe.
---Of COURSE Mormons believe the same things that OTHER Christians believe, in many areas such as what the heart of the gospel is:

That Jesus is the Son of God and Savior and only way to salvation who died for people's sins and was resurrected.

You have been listening to those fringe radical right-wing divisive Evan preachers too much--the ones who say "If a person doesn't believe exactly what I believe, then he's not a Christian at all!"

So how long have you been attending Westboro?


If I believe that Joseph Smith is a false prophet who had sex with young girls.
---There are some Christians who believe that. It doesn't make them non-Christian.


That the Book of Mormon is a book of fiction. That the modern prophets are false prophets. Would it be alright in your opinion if I called myself Mormon?
---You need to come into the 21st century. Your fallacy was exposed and refuted decades ago. It's the "If all Dodges are automobiles, then all automobiles must be Dodges" fallacy. It doesn't impress anyone who can think at or above a high-school level of logical reasoning.

"If I, as a Baptist, believe that Presbyterianism is the devil's church, would it be okay if I called myself a Presbyterian?"

Not that impressive.

[nrajeff]

Jeff here lies the problem. Mormons talk a big game but they don't walk the walk.
---According to Calvinism, we don't NEED to walk the walk, we only need to say the right words. Walking the walk implies "works" --those filthy rags that God doesn't really care about, since you can still get to heaven without doing them. All you need is "faith" that you believe in "the Jesus of the Bible" and that Jesus picked you to be one His special saved elect, for no good reason, while He picked billions of your friends, family, and neighbors to be pre-***igned to hell, also for no good reason.



They claim that their exaltation is based on their faith and obedience, yet they don't do it.
---Yet another fallacy: Whether or not we're keeping all the commandments has NOTHING to do with whether or not those commandments exist and are from God. It is entirely possible for a person to believe that he should help the poor, yet fail to help the poor.


You don't even live up to your own standards.
---Just because we have high standards, and we are not yet perfect at meeting those standards, doesn't mean that our standards should be lowered. Nor does it mean that we will never meet them. You need to think more logically if you ever want to win a debate.


If you die today can you honestly say that you will be exalted?
---Of course not. How arrogant and presumptuous would THAT be? Only GOD knows whether I met His expectations, and besides, Judgment Day doesn't happen the second you die, silly--it's still a long way off, after the end of the Millennial reign of Jesus on Earth. And the millennium hasn't even begun yet.
Why would you think that if a person died today, Judgment Day would be TODAY?

[Snow Patrol]

Snow Patrol this is a major difference between Christians and Mormons. For Christians salvation is based on your faith in Christ. For Mormons your salvation is based on faith AND your works. This is not to say that Christians do not believe in works but rather our works are a reflection of our faith. Also a new Christian will have more sin in his life than a long term Christian. Though they are positionally equal in terms of justification, they are in different places in terms of sanctification.

I understand you position with respect to works. Remember I was raised Mormon. A lot of things in life are based on our own efforts. If you want a good grade you have to work hard and study. So the idea that we are saved by faith and not by works goes against our carnal mind.


A lot there, but not really answering my question. How about again.....
What is the state of a Christian who continues in the sin after giving "lip service" repentance?

[James Banta]

A lot there, but not really answering my question. How about again.....
What is the state of a Christian who continues in the sin after giving "lip service" repentance?

This question can't be answered until you define what you mean by lip service.. All repentant people remain in sin all the while they remain in the flesh. I have shown you in the scripture where Paul the Apostle admitted that he still sinned.. So tell us what is meant by lip service repentance and how you can tell the difference and I will answer your question.. IHS jim

[Billyray]

What is the state of a Christian who continues in the sin after giving "lip service" repentance?
I thought I have done a good *** trying to answer you question but you don't feel that I have done so. Maybe I am not fully understanding what you are really asking. When you say "state" what do you mean exactly? Maybe you could ask your question a little differently so I can get a better grasp of what you are truly asking.

[James Banta]

From what I understand of your beliefs, we can't even realize our place before a holy God without Him doing it for us. Thus Andy's call for Jeff to repent seems, how shall we say, mis-guided.

You miss the point Jesus does the work all He awaits is your acceptance of that work.. Andy called Jeff to accept that work on his behalf as I call you, Marvin, and all LDS people that will listen to my words.. IHS jim

[Billyray]

Only GOD knows whether I met His expectations, and besides, Judgment Day doesn't happen the second you die, silly--it's still a long way off, after the end of the Millennial reign of Jesus on Earth. And the millennium hasn't even begun yet.
You don't know it you have met his expectations? Let me ask you, if you continue to sin do you believe that this meets his expectations?

Second it seems that your advice for yourself and other LDS is to simply delay the day of your repentance. Is that what you are saying Jeff?

[Billyray]

If I believe that Joseph Smith is a false prophet who had sex with young girls. That the Book of Mormon is a book of fiction. That the modern prophets are false prophets. Would it be alright in your opinion if I called myself Mormon?

You didn't really answer the question Jeff. Could you please answer the question?

[JustMe]

God has already called jeff, only jeff told God OK, but I want to do it my way and has chosen Mormonism over God/Christianity.

And I thought God's grace was irresistible, according to TULIP. Either it isn't, or Jeff just isn't one of the "elect" like you. :rolleyes:


And he can play Mr. innocent till he burns in hell, every time he posts here he lies and he knows it. To him this is just a game and he is pushing Jill as far as she will let him and laughing at her all the while he is making a mockery of this forum.

Hey, wanna-be-moderator, I thought calling other posters liars was against the rules!


The guy is in desperate need of an at***ude adjustment and one day God will give it to him, but then it will be to late.

Pity the foolish pagan.

Andy

Pity the foolish "christian" whose works/words here make me wanna stay as far away from the brand of "christianity" he claims to espouse.

[Snow Patrol]

I thought I have done a good *** trying to answer you question but you don't feel that I have done so. Maybe I am not fully understanding what you are really asking. When you say "state" what do you mean exactly? Maybe you could ask your question a little differently so I can get a better grasp of what you are truly asking.


To Christians, is repentance more than just confessing that they have sinned? This topic of discussion has really intrigued me for quite some time. I've heard, and sometimes even used myself, the term "Licensed to Sin" in trying to understand this idea of Christians that when they "Accept Jesus" and confess their sins that they are somehow covered for life. At that point, it doesn't really matter what they do they'll always be Christians and be saved.

What is an acceptable amount of sin a "Christian" can commit and still be considered a Christian? Not once has any Christian out there given me any kind of definitive, even in their own minds, answer as to what is acceptable.

Yes, LDS believe we should set the bar at a level of what we believe Christ would want it to be. "Be ye therefore perfect..." We don't read those words from Christ and think... well I was perfect for a moment so I'm taken care of.

Many times non-LDS ask us if we were to die right now would we receive exaltation. I believe with every fiber of my being that I would. I am not perfect. I have sin in my life. However, as I put forth the effort to rid sin from my life, I believe Christ sees my effort and His atonement covers me. If I go through life and make no effort to expunge sin from my life, then I don't think it matters how many times I say I accept Christ into my life.

I've read numerous times non-LDS quoting a prophet or two talking about how we shouldn't have any sin in our life. My re****al to that is..."what level of sin is acceptable?" Which is what I'm asking the Christians here. What level of sin do you believe is acceptable to Christ? What level of sin do you believe Christ thinks is acceptable?

[Billyray]

To Christians, is repentance more than just confessing that they have sinned? I've heard, and sometimes even used myself, the term "Licensed to Sin" in trying to understand this idea of Christians that when they "Accept Jesus" and confess their sins that they are somehow covered for life.


What is the state of a Christian who continues in the sin after giving "lip service" repentance?

You did not answer my question about what you meant when you said "What is the state of a Christian. . . .", so I can only ***ume that you meant can a Christian be saved if he has a "Licensed to Sin". The concept of a license to sin is not held by true Christians. Remember that there will be both wheat and tares that grow together. Thus there will be true Christians sitting next to non Christians at church. Both will profess that they are Christian and my have an outward appearance of being a Christian, but they will not be true Christians. A true Christian will be born again. This is the work of God not of man--meaning that God is the one who gives us his spirit. After being born again the recipient will have a changed disposition sometimes people describe it as a changed nature.

So to answer your question. If a person is a true born again believer then that person will not feel that he has a license to sin. If a person claims to be a true believer and has no change in his behavior and has no desire to forsake his sinful behavior then it is likely that the person is not a true born again believer. It is not the percentage of sins that a person keeps or does not keep but rather does the person have a changed life and does that person show signs of sanctification i.e. does his life become more and more Christ like over time.

[Billyray]

Many times non-LDS ask us if we were to die right now would we receive exaltation. I believe with every fiber of my being that I would.
If you continue to sin then why do you believe that you will be exalted? This seems to go against what your scriptures teach.

[nrajeff]

You don't know it you have met his expectations?
---LDS doctrine is that it is possible for the Holy Spirit to witness to a person that his behavior is acceptable to God. I just don't think I am one of those who have received that witness yet. In fact, I am pretty sure that I could do better at obeying God's will for me, since I have a fairly good idea of what I am able to do and I could do better. I am not even meeting the standards that I set for myself, let alone what God has set.

But I have faith and hope that as long as I don't give on God, He won't give up on me, so that gives me the will to keep trying to do better, even if I fail a lot of the time.


Let me ask you, if you continue to sin do you believe that this meets his expectations?
----Not if the Bible is correct, it doesn't. The Bible is pretty clear as to what level of obedience GOD and JESUS expect of people who claim to be disciples. Since I believe the Bible is correct, I agree with it.


Second it seems that your advice for yourself and other LDS is to simply delay the day of your repentance. Is that what you are saying Jeff?
--That would be foolish, so no. My advice would be to repent and quit disobeying ASAP, because it might not be so easy to do it after you're dead. At the very least, sin a little LESS each day than the day before, so that if you die next month or year, you won't have as much to answer for as you would if you just continued to party or slack off. Do you think that's bad advice? Would YOUR advice be:

"Hey, it's not a problem if you'll just believe in Trinitarian Calvinism, 'cause then, your present AND future sins are already forgiven, and there is no pressing need for you to kick the sin habit" ????

THAT sounds like bad advice to ME.

[Billyray]

In fact, I am pretty sure that I could do better at obeying God's will for me, since I have a fairly good idea of what I am able to do and I could do better. I am not even meeting the standards that I set for myself, let alone what God has set.

If you could do better then you are not doing all you can do. If you could do better then you are still IN sin. The LDS position is clear Jeff and you are falling short. Don't you agree?

[Libby]

A lot there, but not really answering my question. How about again.....
What is the state of a Christian who continues in the sin after giving "lip service" repentance?

My answer to that is only God knows the heart for certain.

[Snow Patrol]

You did not answer my question about what you meant when you said "What is the state of a Christian. . . .", so I can only ***ume that you meant can a Christian be saved if he has a "Licensed to Sin". The concept of a license to sin is not held by true Christians. Remember that there will be both wheat and tares that grow together. Thus there will be true Christians sitting next to non Christians at church. Both will profess that they are Christian and my have an outward appearance of being a Christian, but they will not be true Christians. A true Christian will be born again. This is the work of God not of man--meaning that God is the one who gives us his spirit. After being born again the recipient will have a changed disposition sometimes people describe it as a changed nature.

So to answer your question. If a person is a true born again believer then that person will not feel that he has a license to sin. If a person claims to be a true believer and has no change in his behavior and has no desire to forsake his sinful behavior then it is likely that the person is not a true born again believer. It is not the percentage of sins that a person keeps or does not keep but rather does the person have a changed life and does that person show signs of sanctification i.e. does his life become more and more Christ like over time.

Sorry, I thought I clarified what I was asking but then added to much stuff probably. So how about this.... as a Christian

What level of sin do you believe is acceptable to Christ? What level of sin do you believe Christ thinks is acceptable?

[Snow Patrol]

If you continue to sin then why do you believe that you will be exalted? This seems to go against what your scriptures teach.

Because, the way I understand the scriptures means that God knows it is impossible for us to be sinless and so he provides a way to overcome that and that is through Christ's atonement.

[Billyray]

What level of sin do you believe is acceptable to Christ? What level of sin do you believe Christ thinks is acceptable?

There is no percentage that I can give. But if you are looking for a specific percentage then you have NOT really understood anything that I have written in my prior posts.

[Billyray]

Because, the way I understand the scriptures means that God knows it is impossible for us to be sinless and so he provides a way to overcome that and that is through Christ's atonement.

But that goes against the LDS teachings. Do you disagree?

[Snow Patrol]

There is no percentage that I can give. But if you are looking for a specific percentage then you have NOT really understood anything that I have written in my prior posts.


I know. It is not an easy question to answer, which is why no Christian has ever answered that. But I think it is a critical one to ponder because I think it is a fine line between the wheat and the tares. It would suck to go through life thinking one is wheat and then to find out that they were actually a tare because of a few sins they were unwilling to give up.

[Snow Patrol]

I do not agree.

[Billyray]

I do not agree.

With what part?

[Billyray]

What level of sin do you believe is acceptable to Christ? What level of sin do you believe Christ thinks is acceptable?

I know. It is not an easy question to answer, which is why no Christian has ever answered that.

No Christian has answered it because there is no specific percentage or specific level. Let me give you another example that will hopefully address this issue.


5 High percentage of following the Commandments
4
3
2
1 Low percentage of following the Commandments


Two atheists convert to Christianity. Both start at different levels on the sin scale. Note this starting level is not based on any religious beliefs in the atheists. Lets say that one starts at 1 and the other starts at a level 3. The ***umption is that they are indeed true followers of Christ. With this fact they are both justified in the eyes of God despite their different initial percentage of sin. Over time if they are true believers they will progressively move up the scale to become more and more Christlike. Look in the NT, we see Christ taking people in a variety of levels of sins and pronouncing them saved based on their faith NOT based on their level of sin.

[Snow Patrol]

No Christian has answered it because there is no specific percentage or specific level. Let me give you another example that will hopefully address this issue.


5 High percentage of following the Commandments
4
3
2
1 Low percentage of following the Commandments


Two atheists convert to Christianity. Both start at different levels on the sin scale. Note this starting level is not based on any religious beliefs in the atheists. Lets say that one starts at 1 and the other starts at a level 3. The ***umption is that they are indeed true followers of Christ. With this fact they are both justified in the eyes of God despite their different initial percentage of sin. Over time if they are true believers they will progressively move up the scale to become more and more Christlike. Look in the NT, we see Christ taking people in a variety of levels of sins and pronouncing them saved based on their faith NOT based on their level of sin.


So, in your opinion, any progress confirms their salvation? What about stagnant growth? What about initial skyrocketing growth, but later return to many of the sins when first saved? I know you can't give me percentages but it is important to think about. It it like trying to play a game when the rules change and where one can determine the rules on their own.

[Snow Patrol]

With what part?

That is goes against the teachings of the Church.

[Billyray]

It it like trying to play a game when the rules change and where one can determine the rules on their own.

Can you explain what you mean by this statement?

[Billyray]

That is goes against the teachings of the Church.

So you disagree with the OP statement? Why?

"In Mormonism, to be forgiven of a particular sin by the atonement, you must successfully stop that sin permanently. In order to be forgiven of all sin you must successfully stop all sin permanently."

[Snow Patrol]

Can you explain what you mean by this statement?

It is how I see Modern Christianity to behave and believe. It all boils down to whatever the individual believes. If he doesn't like the beliefs of church A, then he goes to church B. If he doesn't like that one, then he possibly starts church C. Also, suppose he converts from Mormonism. Since he came from a strict religion as it pertains to obediance, then he may feel that because he's pronounced his faith in Christ that his need to eradicate sin out of his life is not what it once was and may be dramatically lower than what a person who has been a Christian his whole life.

I guess what I'm saying is that there is no standard set. You'll disagree and say that the Bible is the standard but really you can only say that it is each person's interpretation of what the bible says.

[Snow Patrol]

Technically, I believe it to be true as it is written. However, what it does not include is the role that Christ plays in all of this.

[Billyray]

I guess what I'm saying is that there is no standard set. You'll disagree and say that the Bible is the standard but really you can only say that it is each person's interpretation of what the bible says.

I think a lot of Mormons and Christians are unclear on the teachings of their respective faiths. However it would not be fair to judge Mormonism based on an uniformed Mormon just like it would be to criticize Christianity on an unformed Christian.

[Billyray]

Technically, I believe it to be true as it is written. However, what it does not include is the role that Christ plays in all of this.
How do you see the role of Christ in all of this? Do you feel that it changes the OP quote in any way?

[Snow Patrol]

I think a lot of Mormons and Christians are unclear on the teachings of their respective faiths. However it would not be fair to judge Mormonism based on an uniformed Mormon just like it would be to criticize Christianity on an unformed Christian.

I haven't been talking to many uninformed Christians over the years because most of my information has come from members of these types of boards. They may have dramatically different opinions but they are informed.

[Snow Patrol]

Christ's role is to allow us sinful, yet repentent, souls to live with God. Whether we are able to conquer all sin or almost all sin, Christ is the way home for us.

[Billyray]

Christ's role is to allow us sinful, yet repentent, souls to live with God. Whether we are able to conquer all sin or almost all sin, Christ is the way home for us.

I think the key to your statement is "yet repentant". Recall that true repentance requires completely forsaking your sin.

[Snow Patrol]

I think the key to your statement is "yet repentant". Recall that true repentance requires completely forsaking your sin.


Yes, if it was required of us to be completely sinless and fully repentant and forgiven of our OWN accord, then you might have a point of concern. However, simply because of Christ, we are able to still live with God DESPITE the fact that we may not be fully repentant.

[Billyray]

Yes, if it was required of us to be completely sinless and fully repentant and forgiven of our OWN accord, then you might have a point of concern. However, simply because of Christ, we are able to still live with God DESPITE the fact that we may not be fully repentant.

So you believe that you can continue to sin and be exalted?

[James Banta]

"The Christians doctrine on this point seem much more logical.. If we confess our sin He is FAITHFUL AND JUST to forgive is our sin and cleanse us fro ALL UNRIGHTEOUSNESS.."


Will Christ save you IN your sins? Is this confession a one time thing, on-going thing, or a wait till the end thing? How sorry and contrite of heart is someone who returns right back to that sin?

Yes while we were yet sinners Jesus died for us.. Yes, we are saved in our sin..Even Paul said he was in a constant state of sin.. The things he wouldn't do those he did and the things he would do those he did not (Romans 7:19).. Yet He was an apostle sent by Jesus (God) to take His name to the Nations. By you Snow are much better than Paul you always do what you really want to do in the service of God and you have completely over come the lusts of the flesh so you NEVER do what you wouldn't.. Don't say that too loud or someone might call you a name!! IHS jim

[Snow Patrol]

So you believe that you can continue to sin and be exalted?


I believe it all depends on your heart and only God knows the heart. So someone who is willfully and knowingly choosing to continue in sin without even trying to stop and repent is making a choice not to follow Christ. I believe he is rejecting Christ's atonement at that point. However, someone who knows they have sinned and are making efforts to rid that sin from their life and is placing their burdens on Christ are accepting of His atonement and I believe they will be exalted. They may not be completely free from sin but are making the effort.

[nrajeff]

If you could do better then you are not doing all you can do.
-----Yeah, that is the logical conclusion. Glad you are deciding to think logically. Keep up the good work.


If you could do better then you are still IN sin.
--Which is why I am still LDS--I don't believe I have become totally sinless yet, so I need to stay in the hospital for sinners. I will probably be there for a long time, but as C.S. Lewis said, God intends to eventually make non-sinners out of anyone who is willing to let Him.


The LDS position is clear Jeff and you are falling short. Don't you agree
---Of course I agree that the LDS doctrine rightly has high standards just like God has for people who want to be numbered with the saints. The fact that we don't instantly MEET those standards doesn't meant the standards are evil, or impossibly hard. It would be stu=pid to abandon His standards simply because we don't meet all of them TODAY. If they were that easy to meet, THEN there would be reason to question their validity.

[Billyray]

I believe it all depends on your heart and only God knows the heart.

Mark does a good *** addressing this common objection.

http://www.mormonsneedhope.com/
"COMMON OBJECTION: “But He knows my heart.”

[Ding] Correct! That is exactly what should trouble you. He knows all those depraved and evil and self-centered thoughts deep within. Nothing is hid from Him. The scripture says that our hearts are wicked. Selfishness, impurity, unkindness, anger, envy, jealousy—and if you think you are innocent of these evils, then you surely have the sin of pride before God in your heart.

Jeremiah 17:9-10 “The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins…”

Romans 3:10 “As it is written, there is none righteous, no, not one”

Matthew 5:27-30 “Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: {28} But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart. {29} And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell. {30} And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.”

Alma 5:27-32 "Have ye walked, keeping yourselves blameless before God? Could ye say, if ye were called to die at this time, within yourselves, that ye have been sufficiently humble? That your garments have been cleansed...? Behold, are ye stripped of pride? I say unto you, if ye are not ye are not prepared to meet God. Behold ye must prepare quickly; for the kingdom of heaven is soon at hand, and such an one hath not eternal life. Behold, I say, is there one among you who is not stripped of envy? I say unto you that such an one is not prepared; and I would that he should prepare quickly, for the hour is close at hand, and he knoweth not when the time shall come; for such an one is not found guiltless."

Proverbs 23:7 "For as he thinketh in his heart, so is he..."
End of quote

[Billyray]

However, someone who knows they have sinned and are making efforts to rid that sin from their life and is placing their burdens on Christ are accepting of His atonement and I believe they will be exalted. They may not be completely free from sin but are making the effort.

But that is your opinion and does not conform to your own scriptures.

1 Nephi 3:7 "And it came to p*** that I, Nephi, said unto my father: I will go and do the things which the Lord hath commanded, for I know that the Lord giveth no commandments unto the children of men, save he shall prepare a way for them that they may accomplish the thing which he commandeth them."

D and C SECTION 1
31 For I the Lord cannot look upon sin with the least degree of allowance;
32 Nevertheless, he that repents and does the commandments of the Lord shall be forgiven;
33 And he that repents not, from him shall be taken even the light which he has received; for my Spirit shall not always strive with man, saith the Lord of Hosts.

[Billyray]

It would be stu=pid to abandon His standards simply because we don't meet all of them TODAY.

Do you have a good reason for not meeting those standards?

[Snow Patrol]

Mark does a good *** addressing this common objection.

http://www.mormonsneedhope.com/
"COMMON OBJECTION: “But He knows my heart.”

[Ding] Correct! That is exactly what should trouble you. He knows all those depraved and evil and self-centered thoughts deep within. Nothing is hid from Him. The scripture says that our hearts are wicked. Selfishness, impurity, unkindness, anger, envy, jealousy—and if you think you are innocent of these evils, then you surely have the sin of pride before God in your heart.

Jeremiah 17:9-10 “The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins…”

Romans 3:10 “As it is written, there is none righteous, no, not one”

Matthew 5:27-30 “Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: {28} But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart. {29} And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell. {30} And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.”

Alma 5:27-32 "Have ye walked, keeping yourselves blameless before God? Could ye say, if ye were called to die at this time, within yourselves, that ye have been sufficiently humble? That your garments have been cleansed...? Behold, are ye stripped of pride? I say unto you, if ye are not ye are not prepared to meet God. Behold ye must prepare quickly; for the kingdom of heaven is soon at hand, and such an one hath not eternal life. Behold, I say, is there one among you who is not stripped of envy? I say unto you that such an one is not prepared; and I would that he should prepare quickly, for the hour is close at hand, and he knoweth not when the time shall come; for such an one is not found guiltless."

Proverbs 23:7 "For as he thinketh in his heart, so is he..."
End of quote


So what is your point? I'm fine with God knowing my heart.

[nrajeff]

Do you have a good reason for not meeting those standards?

---Does a 6-month-old baby have a good reason for not walking yet? Should we discourage the baby from trying to learn to walk, simply because the baby can't do it RIGHT NOW?

You don't have any children, I'm guessing/hoping.

[Snow Patrol]

But that is your opinion and does not conform to your own scriptures.



Well, I would have to say that that is your opinion.

[Billyray]

Well, I would have to say that that is your opinion.

. . .They may not be completely free from sin but are making the effort. . .
So you are saying that it is OK to continue in your sin as long as you are putting forth a good effort or trying your best?

[Billyray]

---Does a 6-month-old baby have a good reason for not walking yet?


So you are trying to justify your sins by comparing yourself to a 6 month old baby?

[Billyray]

---Does a 6-month-old baby have a good reason for not walking yet? Should we discourage the baby from trying to learn to walk, simply because the baby can't do it RIGHT NOW?


Jeff, your comment reminded me of a statement by Spencer W Kimball in "MIRACLE OF FORGIVENESS"

". . .It is normal for children to try. They fall and get up numerous times before they can be certain of their footing. But adults, who have gone through these learning periods, must determine what they will do, then proceed to do it. To "try" is weak. To "do the best I can" is not strong. . ." Pages 164-165

[Jill]

Stay on topic, please, and stop the insults and baiting. Warnings are a courtesy only and may not be given to longtime posters who know the rules.

[nrajeff]

So you are trying to justify your sins by comparing yourself to a 6 month old baby?

---Sure. Compared to the level of righteousness I expect to be at 1 million years from now, I am like a an infant, spiritually. The Bible supports that idea that we are currently towards the beginning of the process of becoming perfected.

CS Lewis says the process will take a very long time. I think he was right.

[Libby]

---Sure. Compared to the level of righteousness I expect to be at 1 million years from now, I am like a an infant, spiritually. The Bible supports that idea that we are currently towards the beginning of the process of becoming perfected.

CS Lewis says the process will take a very long time. I think he was right.

Can I ask you something, Jeff? I really don't know what LDS believe about this, but if it takes a million or more years to become "sanctified", does that mean you have to wait that long to enter the Father's presence? Where does final judgment fit in?

[nrajeff]

Can I ask you something, Jeff? I really don't know what LDS believe about this, but if it takes a million or more years to become "sanctified", does that mean you have to wait that long to enter the Father's presence? Where does final judgment fit in?

---No, you don't have to get the post-grad degree BEFORE you enter graduate school.

You should know, from Gospel Principles, that Judgment Day comes shortly after Resurrection Day, which comes at the end of Jesus' Millennial Reign and the final war against satan.

On Judgment Day, it's not a case of "Everyone who has become RIGHTEOUS has also reached their potential." It's a case of "Everyone who has become righteous gets to continue their education in the Father's kingdom."

Did that answer your question?

[Libby]

---No, you don't have to get the post-grad degree BEFORE you enter graduate school.

You should know, from Gospel Principles, that Judgment Day comes shortly after Resurrection Day, which comes at the end of Jesus' Millennial Reign and the final war against satan.

On Judgment Day, it's not a case of "Everyone who has become RIGHTEOUS has also reached their potential." It's a case of "Everyone who has become righteous gets to continue their education in the Father's kingdom."

Did that answer your question?

Yes, thanks. I went back and read the last three chapters of Gosepl Principles.

I was kind of confused because you said you expected to attain an even higher level of "righteousness", in a million years, than you have now or even at judgment day. We have to be perfectly perfect and clean to stand before the Father (I think even LDS believe that?)...so, how could you be MORE righteous in a million years?

Christians believe we will be cleansed by the blood of Christ and HE will be our righteousness. Once you are perfected in Christ, you can't get more righteous than that. (Do you see what I mean?)

[Billyray]

You should know, from Gospel Principles, that Judgment Day comes shortly after Resurrection Day, which comes at the end of Jesus' Millennial Reign and the final war against satan.


Jeff, I think that you are incorrect on LDS theology that the first resurrection comes at the end of the millennium.

http://eom.byu.edu/index.php/Resurrection
Encyclopedia of Mormonism--Resurrection
"In a general sense, the Resurrection may be divided into the resurrection of the just, also called the first resurrection, and the resurrection of the unjust, or the last resurrection. The first resurrection commenced with the resurrection of Christ and with those who immediately thereafter came forth from their graves. In much larger numbers, it will precede the thousand-year millennial reign, inaugurated by the "second coming" of the Savior (D&C 45:44-45; cf. 1 Thes. 4:16-17). At that time, some will be brought forth to meet him, as he descends in glory. This first resurrection will continue in proper order through the Millennium. The righteous who live on earth and die during the Millennium will experience immediate resurrection. Their transformation will take place in the "twinkling of an eye" (D&C 63:51). The first resurrection includes the celestial and terrestrial glories.
The final resurrection, or resurrection of the unjust, will occur at the end of the Millennium. In the words of the apocalypse, "the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished" (Rev. 20:5). This last resurrection will include those destined for the telestial glory and perdition."
End of quote

[nrajeff]

I stand corrected on the Resurrection stuff. Thanks. How about Judgement Day--did I get that one right?

[Billyray]

I stand corrected on the Resurrection stuff. Thanks. How about Judgement Day--did I get that one right?

Actually your question about the judgement made me think of an interesting point. If you are resurrected prior to the end of the millennium (per LDS theology) then you have been judged worthy of the celestial or terrestrial kingdoms prior to the judgement after the millennium, which for some will be prior the the millennium even starting.

[Libby]

All very confusing, IMO.

So is the idea of gaining "righteousness" after one has already been pronounced righteous.

[nrajeff]

Yes, thanks. I went back and read the last three chapters of Gosepl Principles.

I was kind of confused because you said you expected to attain an even higher level of "righteousness", in a million years, than you have now or even at judgment day.
---I probably should have said "degree of PERFECTION" instead of righteousness. I can't see God letting any unrighteous people into His presence.


Christians believe we will be cleansed by the blood of Christ and HE will be our righteousness.
---LDS Christians ALSO believe we are cleansed by the blood of Christ (see BOM and D&C) but at some point in eternity, you're gonna have also have your OWN righteousness--be a righteous person--in your own right. You won't be allowed to sin forever, and write it off the books "because Jesus' righteousness is picking up the tab for this one."

[Billyray]

. . .but at some point in eternity, you're gonna have also have your OWN righteousness--be a righteous person--in your own right. . .
I don't think I could of summed up our differences more clearly than you just did with your statement above. Thanks Jeff.

[Libby]

---I probably should have said "degree of PERFECTION" instead of righteousness. I can't see God letting any unrighteous people into His presence.


---LDS Christians ALSO believe we are cleansed by the blood of Christ (see BOM and D&C) but at some point in eternity, you're gonna have also have your OWN righteousness--be a righteous person--in your own right. You won't be allowed to sin forever, and write it off the books "because Jesus' righteousness is picking up the tab for this one."

Okay, thanks, Jeff.

I think Billy did nail the differences in belief. I don't believe we will be sinning forever, but that will only be because of Christ and the sanctification process (which is through him, as well). I do believe he picks up the whole tab, because God knows, I cannot. That is what's so amazing about Christ and his sacrifice...utterly amazing...a miracle.

[Billyray]

Mesenja's post from a different thread



You don't believe this?

1. We can live all the commandments

2. We can triumph over sin.

3. We can achieve perfection in this life.

[Mesenja]

So you don't believe that you can achieve in this lifetime anything that I have listed? Then what you are really saying by this is the following. Christians are unable to keep all the commandments. Christians are unable to triumph over sin. Christians can never attain perfection in this life in any sense of the word.





1. We can live all the commandments



1 John 2:3-4

3 By this we know that we have come to know Him,if we keep His commandments.
4 The one who says,"I have come to know Him," and does not keep His commandments,is a liar,and the truth is not in him;



2. We can triumph over sin.


Galatians 5:24

24 Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its p***ions and desires.




3. We can achieve perfection in this life.



Matthew 5:48

48 "Therefore you are to be perfect,as your heavenly Father is perfect.

[Father_JD]

So you don't believe that you can achieve in this lifetime anything that I have listed? Then what you are really saying by this is the following. Christians are unable to keep all the commandments. Christians are unable to triumph over sin. Christians can never attain perfection in this life in any sense of the word.

LOL. So WHEN did YOU quit sinning, M? :rolleyes:

[Billyray]

So you don't believe that you can achieve in this lifetime anything that I have listed?

1. We can live all the commandments

2. We can triumph over sin.

3. We can achieve perfection in this life.


So I take it that you would agree with Mark's quote


"In Mormonism, to be forgiven of a particular sin by the atonement, you must successfully stop that sin permanently. In order to be forgiven of all sin you must successfully stop all sin permanently."

[Billyray]

So you don't believe that you can achieve in this lifetime anything that I have listed?

Mesenja, have you completely given up sin?

[nrajeff]

I don't think I could of summed up our differences more clearly than you just did with your statement above. .
---Yep, I agree: A big difference between LDS Christians and fringe Evangelical Christians, is that the LDS believe Jesus really IS both willing and able to help His disciples obey His commandments to them--and He really IS willing and able to make His disciples become like Him.


Thanks Jeff
---No need to thank me for pointing out how it's the LDS who believe Jesus and the Bible regarding things.

[Billyray]

. . .that the LDS believe Jesus really IS both willing and able to help His disciples obey His commandments to them-
Yet you fall short. Does this bother you?

[Russianwolfe]

Yet you fall short. Does this bother you?

All of your statements and question demand one impossible thing: That we be perfect in an instant. Even God knows that is impossible.

We believe in the grace of Christ which is sufficent for us to come to perfection as we follow and obey him. We don't need to be perfect at this very instant because of the mercy and grace of Christ. The commandment is to be perfect, but no time limit was given. Christ is loving and will guide us in our quest to follow him and obey his commandments.

Why should it bother me? I know I am not perfect but I know Christ loves me and I have faith that he will guide me in my quest to follow him.

Marvin

[Billyray]

All of your statements and question demand one impossible thing: That we be perfect in an instant.

So you believe that you can live in sin?

[nrajeff]

Yet you fall short. Does this bother you?
---If you get back up after you stumble--instead of just giving up--then you will reach your destination in time. That is all that matters. Too bad extremist Evans don't seem to realize that.

[Billyray]

---If you get back up after you stumble--instead of just giving up--then you will reach your destination in time.

If you can't do it now, what makes you think that you can do it in the future?

[Russianwolfe]

So you believe that you can live in sin?

No, that is your belief. Don't project your mistaken beliefs on me.

Now, if you will stop creating strawman arguments, let's get back to a real discussion.

Marvin

[Russianwolfe]

If you can't do it now, what makes you think that you can do it in the future?

Because of my faith in Jesus Christ. With God all things are possible.

Why do you believe you can't?

Marvin

[Billyray]

No, that is your belief. Don't project your mistaken beliefs on me.
Marvin
Marvin, you didn't answer the question. So you believe that you can live in sin?

[Billyray]

Because of my faith in Jesus Christ. With God all things are possible.
Marvin

So it is possible in the future but not now?

[nrajeff]

If you can't do it now, what makes you think that you can do it in the future?
---Well, let's take a look at that logic:

"If you can't walk right now, 10-month-old child, what makes you think that you'll be able to walk in the future?"


"If you can't build an airplane this week, Wright Brothers, what makes you think you can EVER build one?"

"If you can't make an electric light bulb today, Tom Edison, what makes you think you'll EVER be able to make one?"

Let me guess: At Ed Decker University, they don't teach cl***es on Logic.

[Billyray]

---Well, let's take a look at that logic:

"If you can't walk right now, 10-month-old child, what makes you think that you'll be able to walk in the future?"


Jeff you keep comparing yourself to a baby. You are not a baby you are an adult. Do you have any good reason to continue on IN your sins?


Miracle of Forgiveness pg 164-165
". . .It is normal for children to try. They fall and get up numerous times before they can be certain of their footing. But adults, who have gone through these learning periods, must determine what they will do, then proceed to do it. To "try" is weak. . ."

[alanmolstad]

to be forgiven...the person gives up their right to be angry...

it has noting to do with the ability of the sinner to stop sinning.

[alanmolstad]

when you forgive someone, you do so because it is the best thing for "you"

when you forgive someone your forgiveness is not based on the actions of the other person.
When you forgive someone, you do not do so based on the offenders merit.

When you forgive someone , you dont change anything about the other person , you only change something about yourself.

[RealFakeHair]

I love to post awesome comment like that ...things that are above even my own ability to understand....

yet none the less very true....LOL
I bet your favorite radio station is, The oldie goldy station.

[alanmolstad]

Im from the 70s.....so that is very true

[RealFakeHair]

Im from the 70s.....so that is very true

60s, must better!

[alanmolstad]

If you withhold forgiving another, watching for signs of the person's merit to be forgiven, you will never forgive.

People dont earn forgiveness.....it's simply given.

[James Banta]

If you withhold forgiving another, watching for signs of the person's merit to be forgiven, you will never forgive.

People dont earn forgiveness.....it's simply given.


Just so our LDS friends understand, we don't see this as cheap grace.. It had a price, the life and blood of the Lord of heaven.. That is hardly cheap.. IHS jim

[alanmolstad]

But the person does not 'earn' this forgiveness.

If I sin against someone I know, and then they forgive me for the sin, i dont first have to 'earn' this act by them to forgive me.

forgiveness is a freely given gift.

You simply "receive" it by faith.

There is no forgiveness that is qualified on the person never sinning again, if there were none would ever be forgiven.

So we forgive others, knowing full well of the guarantee that the same person will sin again.

When you forgive another, you don't necessary change the heart of the person being forgiven....
But the heart of the one who has forgiven will always change,

When i forgive another person, I doubt it will change the heart of that person, but it always will change my heart.

[alanmolstad]

to be forgiven...the person gives up their right to be angry...

it has noting to do with the ability of the sinner to stop sinning.
Thus to be completely forgiven all you have todo is repent and ask to be forgiven....

[BigJulie]

Thus to be completely forgiven all you have todo is repent and ask to be forgiven....

So sad when the only person left to have a conversation with is yourself.

[Saint Grogan]

Thanks for your honesty.

"In Mormonism, to be forgiven of a particular sin by the atonement, you must successfully stop that sin permanently. In order to be forgiven of all sin you must successfully stop all sin permanently."

If you look at the ramifications of this statement it means that in order to be totally forgiven requires a sin free life. This raises the question, can anyone meet this standard?

"Go your ways and sin no more; but unto that soul who sinneth shall the former sins return, saith the Lord your God." (D&C 82:7)

If in sinning all the former sins return, it would seem to me that there isn't any forgiveness to begin with.

[Phoenix]

how many times does your Jesus require you to forgive your neighbor?

[Saint Grogan]

how many times does your Jesus require you to forgive your neighbor?
Everytime.

[Phoenix]

Then it would seem to me that there isn't any forgiveness to begin with.

Because if I make fun of your religious beliefs 491 times, but you only forgive me of that sin 490 times like the bible says you're required to do, then was I ever really forgiven, since in the end I end up unforgiven?

[alanmolstad]

I not really sure where you guys are going with this topic?....but I will try to add my own views to the mix.


When I forgive another person, i dont change them at all....
When i forgive you, I dont change the past, nor do i change you in the future.....nor do I take away your ability to sin against me again by forgiving you.

When i forgive you, what Im doing is surrendering my right to be angry at you.

Thus when I forgive you, you are free from the effects that my being angry at you might have caused you .