A "what if" question for critics. [Archive] - Page 2

James Banta

04-14-2014, 10:12 PM

It is plain that Isaiah spoke in poetic language to help us understand the majesty of God. But unlike you, I do not take the concrete writings of Moses and then ***ume that they are now only metaphorical and then take the metaphorical writings of Isaiah and try to make them concrete. It is obvious to me which one is which.

The concrete words of Moses are: "Hear Oh Israel. The Lord our GOD IS ONE LORD".. NOT that God is three lords.. You can twist the language in the creation story all you want, but God's revelation to Moses and to Isaiah is that there is One God not three! There are three persons that are called God in the Bible. But all that means in the Doctrine of the Trinity agrees with the whole of the Bible as mormonism tries to agree with just the creation story.. The Doctrine of the Trinity shows that The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit were all there at the creation even though the Bible also teaches us that Jesus created all things.. Again the Trinity can handle that teaching but mormonism according to you must deny that your three Gods are there working on the creation..

So Isaiah is mere metaphor? That seems an easy way to get out of the revelation of Himself God gave to the prophet.. Just where does Isaiah say that His revelation was a metaphor? Was Jesus using a metaphor as he agreed with Moses saying that The Lord our God is one Lord (Mark 12:29). Maybe you want to say that all the miracles Jesus worked were metaphorical..

Tell me what is metaphorical about Isaiah 53. Was Jesus secretly beautiful when the Prophet said He would have no beauty? As He was crucified was he popular with the m***es or is it reality that men turned away from Him? If Isaiah 43-46 were metaphorical what is it about chapter 53 that is reality? You are spouting pure nonsense you can't support in the scripture.. There are no lampstands here that are being called churches. There are no seeds being said to have stood as the word of God in the hearts of the people scattered among weeds, on hard ground, or in fertile soil.. Yes there are metaphors used in the scripture but you can't fine one in a p***age that tell us that God, who knows all things, doesn't know as much as you say you know, that there are many Gods that exist other than Him..

Oh I think I have it.. When you agree with a p***age that is real, when you disagree then the p***age it's a metaphor.. To bad it isn't working for you.. IHS jim

BigJulie

04-14-2014, 10:54 PM

So you are a polytheist. Is that a fair ***essment for the "readers out there"?

No, I don't think it is a fair ***essment. I believe in God the Eternal Father, His Son Jesus Christ and in the Holy Ghost. I worship God the Father through the Son and God hears and answers my prayers through the Holy Ghost.

BigJulie

04-14-2014, 10:58 PM

The concrete words of Moses are: "Hear Oh Israel. The Lord our GOD IS ONE LORD".. NOT that God is three lords.. You can twist the language in the creation story all you want, but God's revelation to Moses and to Isaiah is that there is One God not three! There are three persons that are called God in the Bible. But all that means in the Doctrine of the Trinity agrees with the whole of the Bible as mormonism tries to agree with just the creation story.. The Doctrine of the Trinity shows that The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit were all there at the creation even though the Bible also teaches us that Jesus created all things.. Again the Trinity can handle that teaching but mormonism according to you must deny that your three Gods are there working on the creation..

So Isaiah is mere metaphor? That seems an easy way to get out of the revelation of Himself God gave to the prophet.. Just where does Isaiah say that His revelation was a metaphor? Was Jesus using a metaphor as he agreed with Moses saying that The Lord our God is one Lord (Mark 12:29). Maybe you want to say that all the miracles Jesus worked were metaphorical..

Tell me what is metaphorical about Isaiah 53. Was Jesus secretly beautiful when the Prophet said He would have no beauty? As He was crucified was he popular with the m***es or is it reality that men turned away from Him? If Isaiah 43-46 were metaphorical what is it about chapter 53 that is reality? You are spouting pure nonsense you can't support in the scripture.. There are no lampstands here that are being called churches. There are no seeds being said to have stood as the word of God in the hearts of the people scattered among weeds, on hard ground, or in fertile soil.. Yes there are metaphors used in the scripture but you can't fine one in a p***age that tell us that God, who knows all things, doesn't know as much as you say you know, that there are many Gods that exist other than Him..

Oh I think I have it.. When you agree with a p***age that is real, when you disagree then the p***age it's a metaphor.. To bad it isn't working for you.. IHS jim

"There are three persons that are called God in the Bible." Yup, that is what I am saying. Glad we agree. And as we can see--each person has their own will---as Christ said, not my will, but thine when speaking of the Father. Clearly these three persons are not the same "being"--if they were, there would be no reason for Christ to say such a thing.

you must deny that your three Gods are there working on the creation.. No, not at all. All three "persons" (as you call them) are part of the Godhead--there during creation.

Yes there are metaphors used in the scripture but you can't fine one in a p***age that tell us that God, who knows all things, doesn't know as much as you say you know, that there are many Gods that exist other than Him.. I am glad you agree regarding the metaphors. Good to know. As far as many "gods'---there is no capital "g" there as you suppose---God calls himself God of gods and Lord of lords. Pretty plain there.

Billyray

04-14-2014, 10:59 PM

No, I don't think it is a fair ***essment. I believe in God the Eternal Father, His Son Jesus Christ and in the Holy Ghost. I worship God the Father through the Son and God hears and answers my prayers through the Holy Ghost.
Merriam-Webster dictionary

Polytheism
"belief in or worship of more than one god"

Don't you believe that there is more than one god? If so does't that make you a polytheist by the dictionary definition?

BigJulie

04-14-2014, 11:02 PM

Merriam-Webster dictionary

Polytheism
"belief in or worship of more than one god"

Don't you believe that there is more than one god? If so does't that make you a polytheist by the dictionary definition?

No. As I stated, I worship God the Father through the Son. But, then---I already said that. I know you are on this kick of what you think I believe---but you know---this accusation is also made about Christianity by Muslims because they do not recognize Christ as the Son of God. So, I guess this argument seems to distract many from understanding the true nature of God the Father and His Son--as if taking this stand allows you an out from recognizing who Christ truly is. The Pharisees also took this stand.

Billyray

04-14-2014, 11:36 PM

BigJulie

04-14-2014, 11:42 PM

No you don't believe that there is more than one god. Is that what you are saying?

You know Billyray, you seem to want to ignore what I am saying that I believe and take this stand---***uming that if you take it you can prove that I don't believe in the God of the Bible. As I said, this was the exact stand the Pharisees took. They had the same thought that you did---if there be the ONE God, then certainly, He could not have a Son that who was part of the Godhead. That is why they thought he was a devil. So, what is the point you are trying to make other than taking the same argument that other non-believers have had before you?

Billyray

04-14-2014, 11:46 PM

You know Billyray, you seem to want to ignore what I am saying that I believe and take this stand---***uming that if you take it you can prove that I don't believe in the God of the Bible. As I said, this was the exact stand the Pharisees took. They had the same thought that you did---if there be the ONE God, then certainly, He could not have a Son that who was part of the Godhead. That is why they thought he was a devil. So, what is the point you are trying to make other than taking the same argument that other non-believers have had before you?
All I am trying to do is get a straight answer from you. Do you or do you not believe that there is more than one god?

BigJulie

04-15-2014, 12:08 AM

All I am trying to do is get a straight answer from you. Do you or do you not believe that there is more than one god?

You got it. You just don't have the ears to hear it.

Billyray

04-15-2014, 12:45 AM

You got it. You just don't have the ears to hear it.
I know what mormonism teaches which is that they believe in many gods which by definition is polytheism. But I still don't know what you believe. Do you or do you not believe that there is more than one god?

Billyray

04-15-2014, 01:05 AM

BigJ I am still waiting for you to answer this--perhaps you forgot. Here it is again for you.

Gen 1:26-27 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: .....So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

To me, it is simple. God is the God of gods---as such, when he said our--he was speaking to those with him and included himself. Those would be those "great and noble ones" that were there in the pre-existence with him. Jesus Christ was there, of course as part of the Godhead.

Can you be more specific? So far you have stated that the gods spoken about in this verse are: 1. God the Father 2. Jesus Christ. Who are the other gods that you think were present? (I am asking because it is important when discussing this verse in context to your original use of this verse in support of mormonism).

BigJulie

04-15-2014, 07:38 AM

I know what mormonism teaches which is that they believe in many gods which by definition is polytheism. But I still don't know what you believe. Do you or do you not believe that there is more than one god?

Polytheism is the worship of many gods. God calls himself God of gods. Under your definition, God himself is polytheistic.

John 10
"The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?"

BigJulie

04-15-2014, 07:39 AM

BigJ I am still waiting for you to answer this--perhaps you forgot. Here it is again for you.

Can you be more specific? So far you have stated that the gods spoken about in this verse are: 1. God the Father 2. Jesus Christ. Who are the other gods that you think were present? (I am asking because it is important when discussing this verse in context to your original use of this verse in support of mormonism).

Already answered you, but here it is again: "Those would be those "great and noble ones" that were there in the pre-existence with him. Jesus Christ was there, of course as part of the Godhead."

But, I also asked you why you believe it says "our" and "us"---and you have yet to answer at all. Let's see if you do this time.

James Banta

04-15-2014, 09:05 AM

Already answered you, but here it is again: "Those would be those "great and noble ones" that were there in the pre-existence with him. Jesus Christ was there, of course as part of the Godhead."

But, I also asked you why you believe it says "our" and "us"---and you have yet to answer at all. Let's see if you do this time.

We, Us, Our.. That is descriptive of the Trinity.. THREE PERSONS.. One GOD.. The Biblical doctrine of God doesn't deny that there are three separate Persons, it just denys that they are three separate Gods. You imagined "Gotch ya" is found only in the mind of those that can't accept the Trinity..

How many Gods did Moses really teach exists? ONE (Deut 6:4).. As I told you before Jesus confirmed that doctrine in Mark 12:29. Mormonism teaches that because of a the fairy tale told by Joseph Smith in 1843 of a experience he had in 1820 in a grove of trees it knows more about the nature of God than Jesus did Himself. How can that be? That God would say that He is one Lord but Smith would teach that we have three Gods, and then say no one can contradict it (History of the Church, Vol. 6, p. 473).. Moses , Isaiah, and Jesus CONTRADICTED it!!!

So If the fact that there are three Persons in the Trinity and that in it exists the fullness of the ONLY true Divinity. It is clear that we can't make a religion out of one chapter of the Bible we have to believe in all of it or none of it.. By calling Isaiah metaphorical you have confirmed to me that you doubt that God spoke to us through the prophet. That His writings were mere poems.. Coming from his own creative mind.. Sorry to burst your bubble but the writings of the prophet were the words of God not the words of Isaiah.. And there God tells is that He is the ONLY real GOD that exists. That neither before Him or after Him was there any other.. Add your "For this world" if you wish. It still means that Either Jesus is that true God with the Holy Spirit, and the Father, OR neither Jesus or the Holy Spirit are Divine.. For No other God was formed before or after the Father was God.. And according to the Holy Spirit through the psalmist God has been God from everlasting to everlasting. Therefore The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are eternally God.. These Truths are far superior to the idea that We, Us, and Our teach three separate Gods.. IHS jim

Billyray

04-15-2014, 09:42 AM

But, I also asked you why you believe it says "our" and "us"---and you have yet to answer at all. Let's see if you do this time.
This is not a difficult question for Christians. This is the first hint of the Trinity right here in the first chapter of the Genesis. Now perhaps you can actually answer my question--the one that you keep trying to avoid.

Already answered you, but here it is again: "Those would be those "great and noble ones" that were there in the pre-existence with him. Jesus Christ was there, of course as part of the Godhead."

So who exactly are these "great and noble ones" that you speak of? Are they gods of other worlds or are they spirit children of god and his wife (wives)?

James Banta

04-15-2014, 09:44 AM

Polytheism is the worship of many gods. God calls himself God of gods. Under your definition, God himself is polytheistic.

John 10
"The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?"

Is God the only true and living God or are there others we need to consider in our prayers? Maybe Thor? Thor was a pagan god was he not? So he was a god (elohim). When Issac left the house of Laban was he not accused of taking the family gods (elohims)? Laban and his family bowed down to these objects and worshiped them.. They two were pagan gods. Did God create the earth where the material was found to form these gods? Did God create the weather in which lightening crashed through the skies to which the belief of Thor was born.. God then is the God of gods..

Haven't we killed your idea that the gods of Psalm 82 failed to defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy and they shall shall die like men? What kind of Gods would fail in their purpose and then die like men.. JUDGES!! They were call elohims because they had the power of life and death over the people.. Trying to get you to see what a p***age really teaches instead of what you want it to say is the challenge here.. I have shown you clearly why these elohims are mere men. Other than the word elohim is used to describe their authority over the people you have not shown one evidence that there were creative gods like the Father and Jesus are God.. Jesus was able to use the i g n o r a n c e of the Jews because they were as untaught as the LDS seem to be in the meaning of Psalm 82.. IHS jim

Billyray

04-15-2014, 09:59 AM

Polytheism is the worship of many gods. God calls himself God of gods. Under your definition, God himself is polytheistic.

Merriam-Webster dictionary

Polytheism--"belief in or worship of more than one god"

I guess you didn't bother even reading the definition that I gave you. Here is the definition for you again--perhaps you should actually read it this time.

Since you "believe in" many gods you are a polytheist by definition. Agree?

BigJulie

04-15-2014, 10:17 AM

Merriam-Webster dictionary

Polytheism--"belief in or worship of more than one god"

I guess you didn't bother even reading the definition that I gave you. Here is the definition for you again--perhaps you should actually read it this time.

Since you "believe in" many gods you are a polytheist by definition. Agree?

And as I noted, if this is what you want to stick to--then you believe Christ himself is polytheistic.

One more time for the record:

John 10
"The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?"

BigJulie

04-15-2014, 10:19 AM

This is not a difficult question for Christians. This is the first hint of the Trinity right here in the first chapter of the Genesis. Now perhaps you can actually answer my question--the one that you keep trying to avoid.
The first "hint" of the trinity did not come about until the Nicene creed (about 300 AD)---which is why you will not find the word "trinity" anywhere in the Bible.

BigJulie

04-15-2014, 10:22 AM

Is God the only true and living God or are there others we need to consider in our prayers? Maybe Thor? Thor was a pagan god was he not? So he was a god (elohim). When Issac left the house of Laban was he not accused of taking the family gods (elohims)? Laban and his family bowed down to these objects and worshiped them.. They two were pagan gods. Did God create the earth where the material was found to form these gods? Did God create the weather in which lightening crashed through the skies to which the belief of Thor was born.. God then is the God of gods..

Haven't we killed your idea that the gods of Psalm 82 failed to defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy and they shall shall die like men? What kind of Gods would fail in their purpose and then die like men.. JUDGES!! They were call elohims because they had the power of life and death over the people.. Trying to get you to see what a p***age really teaches instead of what you want it to say is the challenge here.. I have shown you clearly why these elohims are mere men. Other than the word elohim is used to describe their authority over the people you have not shown one evidence that there were creative gods like the Father and Jesus are God.. Jesus was able to use the i g n o r a n c e of the Jews because they were as untaught as the LDS seem to be in the meaning of Psalm 82.. IHS jim

Ummm, the point isn't who were the gods (who failed to defend the poor and fatherless), but rather or not polytheism is the worship of other gods or just the belief that they do exist. If polytheism is just the belief that "gods' exist--that those "gods" who God defined in both the OT and the NT, would make God himself a polytheist---according to Billyray, anyways.

Glad you note that they are called "elohim" by God himself though---you made my point.

Billyray

04-15-2014, 10:27 AM

The first "hint" of the trinity did not come about until the Nicene creed (about 300 AD)---which is why you will not find the word "trinity" anywhere in the Bible.
The first hint of the Trinity is in the first chapter of Genesis--like I said above.

Now are you ever going to answer my question? Remember that you are the one who brought up this verse in support of mormonism and I am patiently waiting for you to address it for me. Here it is again for you.

Already answered you, but here it is again: "Those would be those "great and noble ones" that were there in the pre-existence with him. Jesus Christ was there, of course as part of the Godhead."

So who exactly are these "great and noble ones" that you speak of? Are they gods of other worlds or are they spirit children of god and his wife (wives)?

James Banta

04-15-2014, 10:28 AM

The first "hint" of the trinity did not come about until the Nicene creed (about 300 AD)---which is why you will not find the word "trinity" anywhere in the Bible.

Neither is the words First Presidency, or Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, or endowment, or initiatory or telestial kingdom. But you might want to say that the concept of these words are there.. Julie, the concept of the Trinity is in the Bible.. There are three persons that are all called God in the Scripture, The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.. Each are called God.. BUT THE BIBLE IS CLEAR THERE IS ONE GOD.. That is clearly the full intent of the meaning of the word Trinity.. IHS jim

Billyray

04-15-2014, 10:29 AM

And as I noted, if this is what you want to stick to--then you believe Christ himself is polytheistic.

You didn't answer my question BigJ. Here it is again for you.

Merriam-Webster dictionary

Polytheism--"belief in or worship of more than one god"

I guess you didn't bother even reading the definition that I gave you. Here is the definition for you again--perhaps you should actually read it this time.

Since you "believe in" many gods you are a polytheist by definition. Agree?
Are you a polytheist by dictionary definition?

BigJulie

04-15-2014, 10:32 AM

Neither is the words First Presidency, or Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, or endowment, or initiatory or telestial kingdom. But you might want to say that the concept of these words are there.. Julie, the concept of the Trinity is in the Bible.. There are three persons that are all called God in the Scripture, The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.. Each are called God.. BUT THE BIBLE IS CLEAR THERE IS ONE GOD.. That is clearly the full intent of the meaning of the word Trinity.. IHS jim

Hmmmm, but the 12 apostles are there---the celestial and terrestrial kingdom are there.

The concept of the trinity is not found in the Bible. As I have so clearly explained, God's likeness and image can be seen clearly in His Son Jesus Christ---which you deny. I accept that there are three persons---just as you do. But I do not accept that Christ is not a separate being from the Father--with his own consciousness and will. It is so plain that Christ says "not MY will, but THINE".

Sadly, Nicene, I believe, in an attempt to keep this type of debate at bay--came up with a definition of God to try to keep every one happy--three persons, one being. But that idea is not found in the Bible. What is explained is that they are one. But Christ asks us to be One as He is. He explains couples as "one" flesh....but we all understand that we are still our own person with our own thoughts and wills.

BigJulie

04-15-2014, 10:33 AM

You didn't answer my question BigJ. Here it is again for you.

Are you a polytheist by dictionary definition?

Billyray, it doesn't take long in conversing with you to realize your way is to just repeat the same question over and over again, and completely close your ears to the answers. I am beginning to understand how Christ felt with the Pharisees---until to understand or hear anything they didn't want to.

James Banta

04-15-2014, 10:41 AM

Ummm, the point isn't who were the gods (who failed to defend the poor and fatherless), but rather or not polytheism is the worship of other gods or just the belief that they do exist. If polytheism is just the belief that "gods' exist--that those "gods" who God defined in both the OT and the NT, would make God himself a polytheist---according to Billyray, anyways.

Glad you note that they are called "elohim" by God himself though---you made my point.

God doesn't even believe that these elohims are Gods.. God denies that other Gods exist.. the word elohim as I have said and said again can mean rules and magistrates.. That is what these were, that is what our judges that sit on the benches of our courts and our leaders that direct or governments are today.. Men that had power given to them by God and the people.. This is exactly what I was saying before you take a word from the Bible and try to make a whole religion out of it.. It doesn't work because God has said "Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any." (Isaiah 44:8), but because that is Isaiah again it isn't really scripture it is merely metaphorical inventions of the mind of a man who claimed that God gave him these words.. If these were the real word of God and not just a man's invented poem they would condemn mormonism into a blasphemy of saying it knows more than the Lord God Himself.. Now doesn't that sound foolish even to your LDS ears? IHS jim

James Banta

04-15-2014, 10:47 AM

Just busy with good things. :)

Yes I believe that you have been..

Matthew 7:22-23
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Just because you see yourself doing "Good things" doesn't mean that you have become a Child of God through faith in Jesus.. There are many an atheist that have done "good things" IHS jim

BigJulie

04-15-2014, 10:50 AM

Yes I believe that you have been..

Matthew 7:22-23
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Just because you see yourself doing "Good things" doesn't mean that you have become a Child of God through faith in Jesus.. IHS jim

Oh my--I can't believe you are trying to attack me on this point.

Lets see---I was up to taking care of a friend who has cancer; helping with children and grandchildren; babysitting for a friend; etc. Judge if you want.

BigJulie

04-15-2014, 10:57 AM

God doesn't even believe that these elohims are Gods.. God denies that other Gods exist.. the word elohim as I have said and said again can mean rules and magistrates.. That is what these were, that is what our judges that sit on the benches of our courts and our leaders that direct or governments are today.. Men that had power given to them by God and the people.. This is exactly what I was saying before you take a word from the Bible and try to make a whole religion out of it.. It doesn't work because God has said "Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any." (Isaiah 44:8), but because that is Isaiah again it isn't really scripture it is merely metaphorical inventions of the mind of a man who claimed that God gave him these words.. If these were the real word of God and not just a man's invented poem they would condemn mormonism into a blasphemy of saying it knows more than the Lord God Himself.. Now doesn't that sound foolish even to your LDS ears? IHS jim

Okay, God calls them gods. Glad you acknowledge that. But then you say that he denies that "Gods" exist---does he deny that "gods" exist?

And if these "rulers and magistrates exist--do they exist in the hereafter?

Rev 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

Mat 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Why do you think Christ tells his apostles and disciples that they will receive a crown --or that he apostles will be twelve judges? Isn't that the *** of a magistrate?

And why does Genesis start with "elohim" then to you?

Billyray

04-15-2014, 10:59 AM

Billyray, it doesn't take long in conversing with you to realize your way is to just repeat the same question over and over again, and completely close your ears to the answers. I am beginning to understand how Christ felt with the Pharisees---until to understand or hear anything they didn't want to.
BigJ why are you avoiding answering my question? It is a very simple question, one that I know you are capable of answering. Here it is again for you.

Merriam-Webster dictionary
Polytheism--"belief in or worship of more than one god"

Are you a polytheist by dictionary definition?

James Banta

04-15-2014, 11:06 AM

Oh my--I can't believe you are trying to attack me on this point.

Lets see---I was up to taking care of a friend who has cancer; helping with children and grandchildren; babysitting for a friend; etc. Judge if you want.

What attack? I said I believe that you were doing "Good things".. I just pointed out that doing so is not the narrow road to salvation.. I am not judging your "good things" I am showing you through the Bible that God isn't interested in what you do He is interested in whose you are.. If you believe in three different Gods you don't believe in Him, and without that faith in Him it is impossible to please Him (Heb 11:6)..

If you feel attacked by my post, and because it was all about believing that you were doing good times and what God has to say about doing Wonderful Works I would say you were convicted.. IHS jim

Billyray

04-15-2014, 11:06 AM

Okay, God calls them gods.
Satan is called a god. Do you believe that he is a god like God the Father?

Billyray

04-15-2014, 11:07 AM

Lets see---I was up to taking care of a friend who has cancer; helping with children and grandchildren; babysitting for a friend; etc. Judge if you want.
What does this have to do with the discussion here on this board?

BigJulie

04-15-2014, 11:12 AM

BigJ why are you avoiding answering my question? It is a very simple question, one that I know you are capable of answering. Here it is again for you.

Merriam-Webster dictionary
Polytheism--"belief in or worship of more than one god"

Are you a polytheist by dictionary definition?

I have answered this question many times.

Answer me this question---who do I worship? I have answered that. You can just cut and paste if you like. Once you see my answer, you will have your answer.

With that being said---I really do have to go. It is time for a family vacation--which I have been preparing for these past few days (cooking, cleaning, etc.)

So, you can tell me I am going to hell, accuse me of worshiping more than one God, tell me that I am not capable of really doing any good, malign me to your friends, ignore my explanations, tell untruths about me, accuse me of having a "persecution complex", and any other thing you desire to do.

But as for me, I know what I know. I know that God the Father lives and loves me. He sent His only Begotten Son who died for me so that I can repent and be forgiven and ultimately return to MY Father in Heaven again. I know that the Holy Ghost bears truth of this and the truths we learn through the scriptures. I have searched the scriptures, and I have found that the teachings revealed to Joseph Smith are true.

So, continue on with your scourging. I rest ***ured that Christ suffered far worse and that I can stand with Him for truth.

Billyray

04-15-2014, 11:21 AM

I have answered this question many times.

Can you point me to the post were you directly answered my question.

Billyray

04-15-2014, 11:23 AM

Answer me this question---who do I worship?

The false gods of mormonism--which ultimately means that you are following Satan and his deception.

James Banta

04-15-2014, 11:29 AM

I have answered this question many times.

Answer me this question---who do I worship? I have answered that. You can just cut and paste if you like. Once you see my answer, you will have your answer.

With that being said---I really do have to go. It is time for a family vacation--which I have been preparing for these past few days (cooking, cleaning, etc.)

So, you can tell me I am going to hell, accuse me of worshiping more than one God, tell me that I am not capable of really doing any good, malign me to your friends, ignore my explanations, tell untruths about me, accuse me of having a "persecution complex", and any other thing you desire to do.

But as for me, I know what I know. I know that God the Father lives and loves me. He sent His only Begotten Son who died for me so that I can repent and be forgiven and ultimately return to MY Father in Heaven again. I know that the Holy Ghost bears truth of this and the truths we learn through the scriptures. I have searched the scriptures, and I have found that the teachings revealed to Joseph Smith are true.

So, continue on with your scourging. I rest ***ured that Christ suffered far worse and that I can stand with Him for truth.

You avoided answering the question as well as some, and much better than most LDS. You are either denying the teaching of Smith that the Father, Jesus and the Holy Ghost are all separate Gods or you deny that Jesus and the Holy Ghost are Gods at all.. You may as will say that you believe in a glorified man and he sent Buddha a mere man, one of God's sons to teach you the right ways to live and die so you could be resurrected.. The fact is that in this post you denied the deity of Jesus. You are willing to call Him a son, even God's only begotten but a God who in His divinity is in every way equal with the Father. That you didn't and I believe can't do and stay true to the doctrines of Jesus held by the LDS church.. IHS jim

Billyray

04-15-2014, 11:40 AM

With that being said---I really do have to go. It is time for a family vacation--which I have been preparing for these past few days (cooking, cleaning, etc.)
Enjoy your vacation. Perhaps this will give you time to ponder what we have discussed.

Phoenix

04-15-2014, 12:54 PM

Merriam-Webster dictionary
Polytheism--"belief in or worship of more than one god"

Are you a polytheist by dictionary definition?

Was Jesus a polytheist by that dictionary definition?

Libby

04-15-2014, 01:54 PM

Was Jesus a polytheist by that dictionary definition?

The Trinity doctrine is kind of difficult to understand, especially coming from a Mormon background (which I do). But, I think it is about significantly more than simply being in agreement with one another (one in thought and purpose). I think of it as sharing the same soul or spirit. The essence is One (not just thoughts and purpose, but the very essence).

The Bible seems to indicate that we will become one with God, as well, if we accept Jesus as our Lord and Savior.

Galations 3

27 For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.

28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

I believe that "oneness" is at the very soul or spirit level.

James Banta

04-15-2014, 02:36 PM

Billyray

04-15-2014, 03:32 PM

Was Jesus a polytheist by that dictionary definition?

No Jesus is not a polytheist.

How about you are you a polytheist?

Phoenix

04-15-2014, 06:44 PM

No Jesus is not a polytheist.
Didn't Jesus claim to have a God?
Didn't Jesus also imply that the God of Israel was Jesus Himself?
Doesn't that make Jesus a polytheist by your dictionary definition?

How about you are you a polytheist?
I think I am no more a polytheist than Jesus is.

RealFakeHair

04-16-2014, 07:50 AM

Simple test:
How many true living god's are there in the Universe?
The answer to this question will determined if you believe you are a polytheist or not.

Snow Patrol

04-16-2014, 07:54 AM

James Banta

04-16-2014, 08:01 AM

[Phoenix;154964]Didn't Jesus claim to have a God?
Didn't Jesus also imply that the God of Israel was Jesus Himself?

Yes Jesus said that the Father is God, and YES He knew that He is God but Jesus also believed and sustained Moses in saying "hear oh Israel the Lord our GOD in one LORD" (Mark 12:29). That sound more like Jesus was a trinitarian believing that the Father is God but also knowing that He is God.

Doesn't that make Jesus a polytheist by your dictionary definition?

Like I said Jesus confirmed that there is One God while knowing that the Father is God, and He is God. That doesn't define a polytheist at all, it describes someone who understand the triune nature of God..

I think I am no more a polytheist than Jesus is.

If you agree that Joseph Smith knew more about God than all the men of his day or since his day then you are clearly a polytheist.. You should know by now that Smith said "I have always declared God to be a distinct personage, Jesus Christ a separate and distinct personage from God the Father, and that the Holy Ghost was a distinct personage and a Spirit: and these three cons***ute three distinct personages and three Gods. If this is in accordance with the New Testament, lo and behold! we have three Gods anyhow, and they are plural: and who can contradict it!" (History of the Church, Vol. 6, p. 473)

I have already shown you that Jesus contradicted it and told you that in so doing he was quoting Moses.. That is two that contradict Smith. Sounds to be like Smith was setting himself above Jesus in his knowledge of God.. That would be blasphemy.. It was blasphemy! Still in saying that there are three Gods, Smith made it clear that he and those that believed he taught only truth are just as much polytheists as he was.. So do you believe there are three Gods as Smith did or do you agree with Jesus that the Lord is One God? Without injecting the infamous "In purpose" into the text can you still agree that there is not three Gods, but only one? IHS jim

James Banta

04-16-2014, 08:09 AM

Just read Abraham. It's five chapters, like you said. Find the one that speaks of God's creations. I don't think that is too much to ask either.

And has as much truth in it as Goldilocks and the Three Bears.. IHS jim

James Banta

04-16-2014, 09:19 AM

Okay, God calls them gods. Glad you acknowledge that. But then you say that he denies that "Gods" exist---does he deny that "gods" exist?

The word elohim is used in 1 Kings 11:33, where it describes Chemosh "the god of Moab", or to demons, seraphim, and other supernatural beings, to the spirits of the dead brought up at the behest of King Saul in 1 Samuel 28:13, and even to kings and prophets (Exodus 4:16). Are demons gods? maybe the kings or prophets? No? Then the word is a ***le given not just to God but to power men and even devils.. God does not deny the existence of such beings.. He does however deny the existence of other Gods, Chemosh to name one (Isaiah 44:8).

And if these "rulers and magistrates exist--do they exist in the hereafter?

Have you read the whole Psalm? It clearly say that these elohims will die like men.. Why would it say that? Even though these rulers and magistrates were mortal men, death will put them back in their place.. They will die like any other man.. Will they exist is the hereafter? Yes either in glory with Jesus or in the Lake of Fire depending on their faith. Just like all other men.. These of Psalm 82 I would guess will have trouble gaining life.. Their works support disbelief..

[B]Rev 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

Mat 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Why do you think Christ tells his apostles and disciples that they will receive a crown --or that he apostles will be twelve judges? Isn't that the *** of a magistrate?

Yes, why would you think it isn't?

And why does Genesis start with "elohim" then to you?

Maybe because GOD is the beginning and the end.. IHS jim

Billyray

04-16-2014, 11:05 AM

Didn't Jesus claim to have a God?
Didn't Jesus also imply that the God of Israel was Jesus Himself?
Doesn't that make Jesus a polytheist by your dictionary definition?

Jesus has two natures in that He is fully God and fully man, in this role he subjected himself to the Law and the Father--living a perfect life ultimately offering himself to be a perfect sacrifice for our sins. But Jesus never taught that there were many gods nor did he teach that he was a separated and distinct god from the Father like mormons teach. So no Jesus is not a polytheist.

I think I am no more a polytheist than Jesus is.
Do you believe that there are many separate and distinct gods?

James Banta

04-16-2014, 02:16 PM

[Snow Patrol;154507]How can you honestly say you take yourself out of the decision?

You read the Bible and come to a conclusion on what it says. Someone else reads the same Bible and comes to a different conclusion. So person A gets visited by a being and decides that what the being says is incorrect based on his conclusions. Person B gets visited and decides what is said is correct based on his different conclusions. You base your decisions on whether this being is good or not is determined by YOUR understanding of the Bible.

How did Saul know he was visited by an angel and not the devil?

I can do so by just believing what the Bible teaches.. As an example when Jesus taught Nicodemus saying:

John 3:14-16
As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up;
(http://biblehub.com/john/3-15.htm)so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life.
For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

First thing you must understand is the reference Jesus was using. That of the fiery serpents that were running though the camp of the people.. Who ever was bitten by one was doomed unless there looked up at the brazen serpent on the staff. Their faith in God shown though believing what was taught to them through Moses saved them.. Just like that we look up to Jesus lifted up to save all who believe in Him.. Is there a different meaning that any believer holds? NO!! In these few short verses the whole Gospel message is made known. Every Christian believer I have ever met in person or online believes that message.. Yet you say we all come to different conclusions.. You are in error.. Those that believe the Bible is God's word trust what it teaches.. Even Saul on the Road to Damascus studied to know that what he heard on that journey was the truth. He was the one that said:

2 Tim 2:15
"Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Saul was studied in the word He had read Isaiah and after hearing the voice of His Lord the truth roared into him that Jesus was the person the p***age was specking of.. Saul went into blindness as Jesus unlocked his mind, Paul awakened as his sight was restored.. So how did He know, because of the scripture.. IHS jim

Libby

04-16-2014, 04:15 PM

Then Libby, do you believe that if we become one with God that we will have His soul or spirit? How do we (followers) become ONE as they are ONE? I think this is the key to understanding how The Father and The Son are ONE.

I believe it is purely love that is the "glue".

When I was LDS, I had this discussion with a mentor of mine, about how the "sealing" process, in the Temple, actually works. I told her, that I had a feeling that, eventually, we would all be sealed together, as one huge family of God. She shook her head, yes, and said, I think you're on the right track, with that idea.

So, I don't know details about how it will all work...I just have a "sense" of it. The thing that binds, and makes us one, is love...our love for Christ and for one another.

RealFakeHair

04-16-2014, 04:20 PM

I believe it is purely love that is the "glue".

When I was LDS, I had this discussion with a mentor of mine, about how the "sealing" process, in the Temple, actually works. I told her, that I had a feeling that, eventually, we would all be sealed together, as one huge family of God. She shook her head, yes, and said, I think you're on the right track, with that idea.

So, I don't know details about how it will all work...I just have a "sense" of it. The thing that binds, and makes us one, is love...our love for Christ and for one another.

Well, maybe, but I believe all the good lookin young women will be sealed my closely with Joseph Smith jr.

BigJulie

04-19-2014, 09:53 PM

The Trinity doctrine is kind of difficult to understand, especially coming from a Mormon background (which I do). But, I think it is about significantly more than simply being in agreement with one another (one in thought and purpose). I think of it as sharing the same soul or spirit. The essence is One (not just thoughts and purpose, but the very essence).

The Bible seems to indicate that we will become one with God, as well, if we accept Jesus as our Lord and Savior.

Galations 3

27 For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.

28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

I believe that "oneness" is at the very soul or spirit level.

Actually Libby, I can conceptualize the idea of being "the same soul or spirit"--or even "the essence of One"---I can think about this in terms of many things---being "one" with everything so to speak.

I can also even conceptualize the idea of being one with God, as you believe---where we become this blended essence idea. The problem is, I just don't see it in the Bible. I would if I believed in the Old Testament alone---but after Christ came, to me--this understanding gave way to what Christ taught. He showed us exactly who God the Father is, what He is like, how to be one with Him and with the Father. It took away the "mystic" type side of it and made it very real.

I don't know what Christ (or God the Father) could have done to make it more clear. When Christ taught us--not my will, but thine---he didn't show us this same "essence"--but actual submission, real submission. When Christ was resurrected, he didn't come back as a spirit---and surely he could have--but he said, feel me, see me eat. How much more plain could he have made it?

So, for me, it isn't that I can't wrap my brain around this 3 in 1 concept, but more that when I read the Bible, it is there in the OT, but dissolves in the New Testament as Christ actually showed us exactly what was meant in the OT.

Billyray

04-19-2014, 10:44 PM

So, for me, it isn't that I can't wrap my brain around this 3 in 1 concept, but more that when I read the Bible, it is there in the OT, but dissolves in the New Testament as Christ actually showed us exactly what was meant in the OT.

I am not sure what you mean by "dissolves in the New Testament". When God enters His own creation in the person of Jesus (100% God and 100% man) and places himself under the law and obedience to His own commandments the text has to be different when compared to the time prior to Him entering in the form of a human. The problem BigJ is that you have to twist and ignore all of the verses that clearly state that there is only ONE. That is one major distinction between mormonism and Christianity in that the former is a polytheistic whereas the later in monotheistic.

BigJulie

04-20-2014, 09:38 AM

I am not sure what you mean by "dissolves in the New Testament". When God enters His own creation in the person of Jesus (100% God and 100% man) and places himself under the law and obedience to His own commandments the text has to be different when compared to the time prior to Him entering in the form of a human. The problem BigJ is that you have to twist and ignore all of the verses that clearly state that there is only ONE. That is one major distinction between mormonism and Christianity in that the former is a polytheistic whereas the later in monotheistic.
When I say "dissolves in the New Testament"---I mean that any misunderstanding that believers had about God in the Old Testament should have been clearly understood by what Christ taught and showed in the New Testament. There were many Jews that could not grasp the concept that God could have a Son and there are many Christians who can grasp that God's Son showed us exactly who the Father is---that His very purpose was to glorify the Father (glorify means to pure, whole truth that can be seen plainly and clearly.)

Where does it say that God enters his own creation in the person Jesus? He says "behold my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased." Christ also states, "That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me."

I am quoting the New Testament---this seems pretty plain to me. Unless of course, you think that in order to be one with God and Christ, you somehow meld and lose your own consciousness and that we have to do that to believe that God the Father gave His Only Begotten Son for us. Of this I can't even comprehend---how do you die, overcome death, be resurrected, have your own body, and be "one' in God the Father and Jesus Christ as they are one....but still have this "enter [your] own creation" stuff?

If that is not clear enough, listen to what Christ says to Mary after his resurrection: "Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God."

In other words, His Father is our Father and His God is our God. He speaks nothing of his person being his essence entering his own creation. He speaks plainly. He speaks clearly. He glorifies the Father. He shows us the majesty and awesomeness of who His Father is by what He did and who He is. He speaks plainly that He submitted to the Father completely and utterly and asks us to do the same.

Speaking of this, Happy Easter--where we celebrate the resurrection of Christ, who came in a body, and showed himself to his disciples. :)

alanmolstad

04-20-2014, 09:46 AM

Where does it say that God enters his own creation in the person Jesus? )In the beginning of the Book of John...

Apologette

04-20-2014, 09:50 AM

Why repost a thread put up by the stalker, Sir, who is Apollos on CARM, and copied messages between Christians and posted them here?

alanmolstad

04-20-2014, 09:52 AM

Why repost a thread put up by the stalker, Sir, who is Apollos on CARM, and copied messages between Christians and posted them here?
why not?

There is no problem with going over topics that are here regardless of who started them or last posted on them.

And if any person thinks they are interesting, and might be something they have a view they wish to share?>>>>>, Go For It!....

Thats what they are here for!

Use them to inspire some new chances to share views and ask questions or challenge false ***umptions!

Apologette

04-20-2014, 09:55 AM

why not?

There is no problem with going over topics that are here regardless of who started them or last posted on them.

And if any person thinks they are interesting, and might be something they have a view they wish to share?>>>>>, Go For It!....

Thats what they are here for!

Use them to inspire some new chances to share views and ask questions or challenge false ***umptions!
Put up something Christian, and don't rework evil!

James Banta

04-20-2014, 11:04 AM

Put up something Christian, and don't rework evil!

It is Christian to hold total faith in God.. By that I believe that he is Omnipotent, Omnipresent, and Omniscient. If He is Omniscient he knows all things past, present, and future.. He knows who will believe and who will doubt.. He knows who will be saved and who will be ****ed. That Omniscience gives Him the power, authority, and the moral right, to p*** judgement on us even before we were born.. The only reason He doesn't is because of His grace. That foreknowledge is our predestination.. Like it or not to all men that is our predestination.. It isn't preciousness it is based on God's knowledge and wisdom..

Mormonism god is not that powerful. He knows the past and the present but they teach he is subject to time the same as we are. He is a weakling, he doesn't even have creative power. He is merely a good builder.. IHS jim

alanmolstad

04-20-2014, 11:11 AM

Put up something Christian, and don't rework evil!
I think its a great idea to go over the listed topics looking for the things that spark interest.

I love the idea that there is a huge history of different topics that we can pick from.

Its the reason the Jill allows so many topics to be saved here....its for the future.....it's because you never know when someone might read something of interest and that sparks a deeper search in the Scriptures for truth.

So I tell people to be bold with their views!

if you see something that you have a question about, or want to talk about, there is a good chance that this may be the Holy Spirit prompting you in a new direction!......

BigJulie

04-20-2014, 01:10 PM

In the beginning of the Book of John...

I disagree that the beginning of the book of John undoes what Christ taught us directly. In fact, if you look at John, in light of what Christ directly, it makes it clear that Christ did not teach that "God enters His own creation in the person of Jesus." John speaks of the Godhead and how it works. John does not say that Christ is not the Son of God, nor undoes anything that Christ taught us of His relationship (and our relationship) to His Father.

So, I originally posted to this thread because of this comment
Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post

the point im making is that we are to always test by scriptures.....

always.....

and we are not be afraid that just because it might take a while....or....just because not everyone will agree.

thats what I am saying

My point is---I do test the scriptures---I do read them, I do study them--and in the end, I do not see the Trinity concept. I look at history and the concept of the trinity, to me, is the creation of men. It is not found in the Bible--not at least, as explained by the Nicene creed.

But once again, this is why it is so important to have the witness of the Holy Ghost who teaches us and becomes a second witness to the Bible. This is why I have what I do in my signature.

BigJulie

04-20-2014, 01:14 PM

Mormonism god is not that powerful. He knows the past and the present but they teach he is subject to time the same as we are. He is a weakling, he doesn't even have creative power. He is merely a good builder.. IHS jim

So very untrue. I hope those who come here to learn of what Mormons believe will actually go to the source (LDS.org or Mormon.org) and see what we believe.

Billyray

04-20-2014, 02:13 PM

Billyray

04-20-2014, 02:23 PM

In other words, His Father is our Father and His God is our God.
John 20:28 Thomas answered him, “My Lord and my God!”

Who is "my God" referring to in verse 28"?

Billyray

04-20-2014, 02:39 PM

There were many Jews that could not grasp the concept that God could have a Son
Isaiah 9:6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Can you tell me who this is referring to in verse 6?

RealFakeHair

04-20-2014, 03:41 PM

The first "hint" of the trinity did not come about until the Nicene creed (about 300 AD)---which is why you will not find the word "trinity" anywhere in the Bible.

Lets see, you're questioning something that came about oh 300 years after the death of Christ, but totally believe a book by Joseph Smith jr. Some 1500 years after the Nicene Creed.

BigJulie

04-20-2014, 05:24 PM

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God

In verse one it says "the word was God". Who is this referring to?

Jesus Christ.

As I said, to me, this verse teaches us of the Godhead. It does not undo what we learn about God the Father from Christ Himself and the relationship Christ has with God the Father (being His Son.)

BigJulie

04-20-2014, 05:25 PM

Isaiah 9:6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Can you tell me who this is referring to in verse 6?

Yes, it makes so much sense now---but the Jews did not see it. And yes, we also call Jesus Christ the Everlasting Father---but this does not mean that Christ is his own Father, it means we become Christ's children when take on His name.

BigJulie

04-20-2014, 05:26 PM

Lets see, you're questioning something that came about oh 300 years after the death of Christ, but totally believe a book by Joseph Smith jr. Some 1500 years after the Nicene Creed.

Yes, as the Nicene creed was a creed made by men and Joseph Smith received revelation. That revelation is completely congruent with the teachings of the Bible and makes it so much clearer. We don't have to try to make God and abstract nonsensical being, but rather--we can understand that we truly are made in his likeness and image and that we can see this clearly by understanding who Jesus Christ is and His relationship to the Father and to us.

James Banta

04-20-2014, 05:35 PM

[BigJulie;154931]Hmmmm, but the 12 apostles are there---the celestial and terrestrial kingdom are there.

Look at who can be one of the 12.. Judas was replaced only because he gave up his apostleship with the denial of Jesus. He needed to be replaced. Then he was replaced with a man that had been with Jesus for His full mortal ministry. Not one of the other were replaced because not one of them lost their apostleship. The subject of replacing them is not found anyplace in scripture. There were still apostles living when Peter was martyred. Why wasn't he replaced? Because Peter is still an Apostle of the Lord Jesus. So much for you complaint about the 12..

Do you know the meaning of the words celestial and terrestrial? They are never called kingdoms anywhere on the Bible. Since when did bodies become kingdoms? The LDS see the words celestial and terrestrial, ignore what the Bible is saying, and create a whole new and different meaning for them.. Celestial means heavenly.. Terrestrial means earthly.. We have an earthly Body, in the resurrection we will have a heavenly body.. But I wouldn't expect you to actually know or understand that..

The concept of the trinity is not found in the Bible. As I have so clearly explained, God's likeness and image can be seen clearly in His Son Jesus Christ---which you deny. I accept that there are three persons---just as you do. But I do not accept that Christ is not a separate being from the Father--with his own consciousness and will. It is so plain that Christ says "not MY will, but THINE".

How can you read the Bible and not understand that there is one God? NOT three Gods.. Then along comes Joseph Smith and the teaching of the one true God is out the window.. God told Moses that He, the Lord our God, is One LORD.. To Isaiah God said that "I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no Savior." Then Jesus confirmed the word given to Moses that The Lord our God in one LORD.. Still in all that Jesus calls The Father God (John 20:17), Jesus is refereed to as God in John 1:1, and the Holy Spirit is called God by the Apostle Peter (Acts 5:3-4).. Does this erase Jesus telling us that God is One Lord? There has to be a way for it all to be truth, that is found in the doctrine of the Trinity..

Sadly, Nicene, I believe, in an attempt to keep this type of debate at bay--came up with a definition of God to try to keep every one happy--three persons, one being. But that idea is not found in the Bible. What is explained is that they are one. But Christ asks us to be One as He is. He explains couples as "one" flesh....but we all understand that we are still our own person with our own thoughts and wills.

The Nicene Creed is no way changes the Fact that the Lord our God is One Lord.. Smith's teaching that we have three Gods fractures the teachings of Moses, Isaiah, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit.. LDS teachings that there are three Gods is totally ANTI Bible.. The doctrine of the Trinity agrees with it 100%. IHS jim

BigJulie

04-20-2014, 05:43 PM

[QUOTE=James Banta;155182]Look at who can be one of the 12.. Judas was replaced only because he gave up his apostleship with the denial of Jesus. He needed to be replaced. Then he was replaced with a man that had been with Jesus for His full mortal ministry. Not one of the other were replaced because not one of them lost their apostleship. The subject of replacing them is not found anyplace in scripture. There were still apostles living when Peter was martyred. Why wasn't he replaced? Because Peter is still an Apostle of the Lord Jesus. So much for you complaint about the 12.. Actually, it is. (And it is one of the first things they did after they lost Judas.)

Acts 1:26 And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.

Do you know the meaning of the words celestial and terrestrial? They are never called kingdoms anywhere on the Bible. Since when did bodies become kingdoms? The LDS see the words celestial and terrestrial, ignore what the Bible is saying, and create a whole new and different meaning for them.. Celestial means heavenly.. Terrestrial means earthly.. We have an earthly Body, in the resurrection we will have a heavenly body.. But I wouldn't expect you to actually know or understand that.. When we are resurrected, our soul (body and spirit) will rise with the glory it has become while on earth. The "kingdom" is only a distinction of what type of people will be there.

How can you read the Bible and not understand that there is one God? NOT three Gods.. then along comes Joseph Smith and the teaching of the one true God is out the window.. God told Moses that He, the Lord our God, is One LORD.. To Isaiah God said that "I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no Savior." Then Jesus confirmed the word given to Moses that The Lord our God in one LORD.. Still in all that Jesus calls The Father God (John 20:17), Jesus is refereed to as God in John 1:1, and the Holy Spirit is called God by the Apostle Peter (Acts 5:3-4).. Does this erase Jesus telling us that God is One Lord? There has to be a way for it all to be truth, that is found in the doctrine of the Trinity..
I completely understand what it means to be One God. I also understand what it means to be one with God and one with my spouse. Joseph Smith did not throw this teaching out the window, but made what was plain and simple, plain and simple again. Christ taught very clearly who He is in relationship to the Father as well as who we are. There is a way for all of it to be true--just as you said, but not Nicene's way.

The Nicene Creed is no way changes the Fact that the Lord our God is One Lord.. Smith teaching That we have three Gods. Fractures the teaching of Moses, Isaiah, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit.. LDS teachings that there are three Gods is totally ANTI Bible.. The doctrine of the Trinity agrees with it 100. IHS jim What Joseph Smith revealed is not anti-Bible, it is exactly what the Bible teaches. The Nicene creed undermines what Christ taught us about being one with Him as He is one with God the Father. It undermines our relationship with Him because, by the Nicene creed, we lose our understanding of who God is to us and why Christ calls him His Father and Our Father. The Nicene creed was designed to keep political peace---to keep everyone happy, that is all.

Anyone who has read the Bible with prayer should question, seriously, the doctrine of the trinity.

James Banta

04-20-2014, 06:50 PM

[BigJulie;155183][QUOTE] Actually, it is. (And it is one of the first things they did after they lost Judas.)

Acts 1:26 And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.

ONLY JUDAS, he was the only one that gave up his Apostleship. NONE OF THE OTHERS EVER DID! Even Matthias was with Jesus during His whole mortal ministry (Acts 1:21-22).. Not one of the other Apostles ever lost their bishopric, so no other had to be appointed in their places.. Your modern "apostles" never walked with Jesus during His mortal ministry.. Therefore these men that have taken that office within mormonism have usurped that authority. In short they are phonies..

When we are resurrected, our soul (body and spirit) will rise with the glory it has become while on earth. The "kingdom" is only a distinction of what type of people will be there.

Give me some room for intelligence.. The LDS teach that there are three Kingdoms, PLACES.. People to have kept the laws of each are ***igned to the corresponding place "KINGDOM".. To the place, the celestial kingdom, those who have kept celestial laws are ***igned..

Did you look up the meaning of celestial and terrestrial yet? Can you see that they indeed do mean heavenly and earthly? Why would the middle kingdom that is said to be much greater than the telestial kingdom, be called earthly when the telestial kingdom is taught to be far better than the earth? Isn't the telestial the lowest kingdom? If the terrestrial, which means earthy, is what it says it is, then the lowest kingdom is better than the terrestrial.. Is mormonism ever clear about the meaning of words? NOPE, again mormonism is totally convoluted..

I completely understand what it means to be One God. I also understand what it means to be one with God and one with my spouse. Joseph Smith did not throw this teaching out the window, but made what was plain and simple, plain and simple again. Christ taught very clearly who He is in relationship to the Father as well as who we are. There is a way for all of it to be true--just as you said, but not Nicene's way.

Great, you don't like the Nicene creed. I am not asking you to believe anything about the Creed.. Throw it away it is no longer needed.. We all have access to God word, we no longer need the creed to take the scripture with us.. So believe that there is One God, that He is he Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as the Bible teaches.. Not three Gods in one purpose but one God in three persons.. Their relationship is the same as yours is between your Body, Mind, and Spirit.. In your triune nature you move, live, and have your being.. In that nature you reflect the image of the invisible God.. If any of those elements of your being is removed, you die..

What Joseph Smith revealed is not anti-Bible, it is exactly what the Bible teaches. The Nicene creed undermines what Christ taught us about being one with Him as He is one with God the Father. It undermines our relationship with Him because, by the Nicene creed, we lose our understanding of who God is to us and why Christ calls him His Father and Our Father. The Nicene creed was keep political peace, that is all.

I have used p***ages from the Bible to show that the Trinity is Biblical.. All you have said to support Smith teachings that there are three Gods is because Smith says so.. Again, I DON'T CARE WHAT YOU SEE IN THE CREEDS. The Bible teaches clearly that the Lord our God is One Lord.. Smith taught there were three. Just where in the Bible is it stated that there are three Gods? You have just said that the Bibles teaches what Smith taught.. WHERE? You have to make it all be true in your doctrines, not half of it.. Either there are three Gods taught in the Bible or One.. Jesus said that there is ONE.. Smith taught three.. Who has the authority in such matters Smith or GOD (Jesus).. Even those LDS that teach that the Father is the one true God and Jesus His Son are denying the divinity of Jesus.. The Bible is clear. "In the beginning was Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God" (John 1:1).. Are you one that denies the divinity of Jesus?

Anyone who has read the Bible with prayer should question, seriously, the doctrine of the trinity.

Anyone that can read can see that Moses, Isaiah, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit all teach that there is One God.. Anyone that can read can see that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are all called God.. That means that there must be one God that is the Father Son, and Holy Spirit.. That is the Trinity.. No matter what you see in the Creeds the Trinity is totally Biblical.. IHS jim

Billyray

04-20-2014, 07:00 PM

Where does it say that God enters his own creation in the person Jesus?

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God

In verse one it says "the word was God". Who is this referring to?

Jesus Christ.

As I said, to me, this verse teaches us of the Godhead. It does not undo what we learn about God the Father from Christ Himself and the relationship Christ has with God the Father (being His Son.)
So are you now in agreement that God enters his own creation in the person of Jesus?

Billyray

04-20-2014, 07:05 PM

Isaiah 9:6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Can you tell me who this is referring to in verse 6?

Yes, it makes so much sense now---but the Jews did not see it.
Yet it is in their own scriptures and a lot of the Jews didn't even see it when Christ appeared among them and did many miracles including raising the dead.

BigJulie

04-20-2014, 07:28 PM

So are you now in agreement that God enters his own creation in the person of Jesus?

Not at all.

BigJulie

04-20-2014, 07:29 PM

Yet it is in their own scriptures and a lot of the Jews didn't even see it when Christ appeared among them and did many miracles including raising the dead.

Yup, I completely agree---they did not see---so they went on the attack, because they thought they understood the scriptures, but because they lacked the Holy Ghost, they misunderstood and felt to condemn instead.

BigJulie

04-20-2014, 07:31 PM

[QUOTE]
Anyone that can read can see that Moses, Isaiah, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit all teach that there is One God.. Anyone that can read can see that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are all called God.. That means that there must be one God that is the Father Son, and Holy Spirit.. That is the Trinity.. No matter what you see in the Creeds the Trinity is totally Biblical.. IHS jim

No, that is the Godhead. Christ still submitted to the will of the Father. Christ is still the Son of God. Christ still was resurrected, and has a body. Christ is still the express image of the Father. Christ called His Father, our Father and His God our God. The Father spoke of His Son of whom He was well pleased. The concept of the trinity denies those distinctions.

Phoenix

04-20-2014, 11:17 PM

Mormonism god is not that powerful. He knows the past and the present but they teach he is subject to time the same as we are.

So when you were LDS, you actually believed that in Mormonism, God is unable to see into the future? And now that you are ex-LDS, you are telling people that is LDS doctrine?

How do you explain the prophecies?

Phoenix

04-20-2014, 11:20 PM

John 20:28 Thomas answered him, “My Lord and my God!”
Who is "my God" referring to in verse 28"?

Why couldn't it be a reference to Jesus' God, aka God the Father? After all, Thomas's God is also Jesus's God, correct? Stephen could have made the same exclamation during his theophany of both his Lord, and of his God, since they were both there.

BigJulie

04-21-2014, 06:39 AM

The problem with the trinity for me is it doesn't recognize God the Father as Christ's Father---but something else...or as Billyray states, God entered his own creation type thing. Christ's own words do not support this. Christ calls God the Father His Father multiple times. He calls Himself God's son.

Here is an explanation I can find regarding the trinity:

•There is one and only one God.
•God eternally exists in three distinct persons.
•The Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God.
•The Father is not the Son, the Son is not the Father, the Father is not the Spirit, etc.

Where do you read in this that Jesus Christ IS the Son of the Father--the Father Jesus Christ himself refers to as His Father and our Father. It refers to the Son---but the Son of what? Do you see it there? I don't.

James Banta

04-21-2014, 09:13 AM

[BigJulie;155207]The problem with the trinity for me is it doesn't recognize God the Father as Christ's Father---but something else...or as Billyray states, God entered his own creation type thing. Christ's own words do not support this. Christ calls God the Father His Father multiple times. He calls Himself God's son.

I don't know who you have been talking to but the Father is the Father.. Just like Jesus is the Son.. No we don't believe that God, in a corporeal body, had sexual contact with Mary to produce the physical body of Jesus. Never the less the Father is called the Father, why is that? Why is Jesus called the Son. Both are called that because of the flesh of Jesus.. But the Father isn't the Person who the Bible records as having created the Body of Jesus in the womb of Mary.. What does the scripture say?

Matthew 1:18-20
Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.
Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a public example, was minded to put her away privily.
But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.

And though Mary was with Child of the Holy Spirit, Jesus was the Son of God, and why because there is one God and He is the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.. This p***age and those of Jesus calling the Person of the Father, Father confirm the doctrine of the Trinity. Each of the three Persons of God always act in complete unity. When the Holy Spirit is seen as acting it is God completing that action. Therefor the Father is the Father of the Physical body of Jesus because it was an act of God..

Otherwise He would just be called God.. While Jesus did recognize the Father as His Father, He is also called the Father Himself in Scripture (Isaiah 9:6). So is Jesus his own Father? In a way He is, to say otherwise is to deny His divinity.. I leave such denials for the LDS.. Did the Person of the Son exist before His advent into this world? OF course, and was He God before that advent? YES!! And doesn't the Bible teach us that there is ONE GOD? And Jesus is the Son of God..

Here is an explanation I can find regarding the trinity:

•There is one and only one God.
•God eternally exists in three distinct persons.
•The Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God.
•The Father is not the Son, the Son is not the Father, the Father is not the Spirit, etc.

Where do you read in this that Jesus Christ IS the Son of the Father--the Father Jesus Christ himself refers to as His Father and our Father. It refers to the Son---but the Son of what? Do you see it there? I don't.

That is a Good report of the Trinity.. Doesn't the Bible teach us that the Lord our God is one LORD? (Deut 6:4) YES.. Does the Bible then teach that the Father is God? (John 20:17) YES.. Does it teach that Jesus is God? (John 1:1) YES.. Does it teach that the Holy Spirit is God (Acts 5:3-4) Yes.. Tell me How is it possible that the Bible teaches the existence of one God and then speak of three, unless those three are the one true and living God? Let me know when you can come up with a teaching that satisfies Deut 6:4, John 20:17, John 1:1, and Acts 5:3-4 without ignoring anyone of them or calling then error.. The doctrine of the trinity does that.. The ideas I have heard from the LDS can't. Mormonism tries to do that by adding to the p***age the phrase "In Purpose". An addition that can't be supported in any m****cript. Or by saying that Only the Father is God and Jesus and the Holy Spirit only His councilors like the First Presidency of the LDS church.. But that teaching denies the Godhood of both Jesus and the Holy Spirit.. No any doctrine put forth by the LDS church or it's members ALWAYS fails to meet the scriptural revelation of who and what God is. Their doctrines in this matter dismiss God's word and create a God unto themselves a physical sexual being whose whole purpose is to reproduce beings like Himself.

It isn't the Trinity that doesn't make sense it is the LDS doctrines of who and what God is that is confusing when held up to the light of the unadulterated scripture.. IHS jim

BigJulie

04-21-2014, 10:00 AM

[QUOTE=James Banta;155208]
And though Mary was with Child of the Holy Spirit, Jesus was the Son of God, and why because there is one God and He is the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.. This p***age and those of Jesus calling the Person of the Father, Father confirm the doctrine of the Trinity. Each of the three Persons of God always act in complete unity. When the Holy Spirit is seen as acting it is God completing that action. Therefor the Father is the Father of the Physical body of Jesus because it was an act of God.. I don't see it this way at all. I agree that the three persons act in complete unity. So, you see the Father as Christ's Father, I agree--as Christ says so.

Otherwise He would just be called God.. While Jesus did recognize the Father as His Father, He is also called the Father Himself in Scripture (Isaiah 9:6). So is Jesus his own Father? In a way He is, to say otherwise is to deny His divinity.. I leave such denials for the LDS.. Did the Person of the Son exist before His advent into this world? OF course, and was He God before that advent? YES!! And doesn't the Bible teach us that there is ONE GOD? And Jesus is the Son of God.. Christ doesn't call himself His own Father.....he recognizes that He is our Father when we take on His name. Did Jesus exist before the beginning of the world, as part of the Godhead? Yes, LDS believe this--and you should know that.

The Bible teaches us there is ONE GOD, and also Christ teaches us what this means---but he doesn't speak of the trinity, he speaks of complete unity and love---acting in harmony with each other. That is how we can be one with God, one with Christ, one with our spouse. No where does it say, we give up our own consciousness or become the "essence" of the other.

Tell me How is it possible that the Bible teaches the existence of one God and then speak of three, unless those three are the one true and living God? By understanding the Godhead. Which does not do this double speak found in the trinity.

.
The ideas I have heard from the LDS can't. Mormonism tries to do that by adding to the p***age the phrase "In Purpose". An addition that can't be supported in any m****cript. Or by saying that Only the Father is God and Jesus and the Holy Spirit only His councilors like the First Presidency of the LDS church.. But that teaching denies the Godhood of both Jesus and the Holy Spirit.. It doesn't at all. The main difference between the Godhead and the trinity is that the trinity does not recognize that each "person" of the Godhead has their own consciousness and choices.

No any doctrine put forth by the LDS church or it's members ALWAYS fails to meet the scriptural revelation of who and what God is. Actually, the Godhead fits perfectly, it is the trinity doctrine that fails.

Their doctrines in this matter dismiss God's word and create a God unto themselves a physical sexual being whose whole purpose is to reproduce beings like Himself. Yes, I understand that the trinity concept makes sex out to be a dirty filthy thing and not something of God.

James Banta

04-21-2014, 11:20 AM

[BigJulie;155212] I don't see it this way at all. I agree that the three persons act in complete unity. So, you see the Father as Christ's Father, I agree--as Christ says so.

Do you agree that Mary "was found with child of the Holy Ghost." that "which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost." If you do them why not just call the Holy Ghost the Father? If you don't why do you deny the scripture? Since I believe that God is One, what the scripture teaching about the Holy Spirit doing the Father also does..

Christ doesn't call himself His own Father.....he recognizes that He is our Father when we take on His name. Did Jesus exist before the beginning of the world, as part of the Godhead? Yes, LDS believe this--and you should know that.

My point is Jesus is God.. He is called God in scripture. He takes the ***le "I AM" (you have not understand that, but the Jews around Him did and they picked up stones to kill Him for saying that) "I AM" is the name God Told Moses to tell the people who He is.. Jesus used it in reference to Himself.. Jesus accepted worship from Thomas, and then from Peter as they called Him God.. If there is One God then Jesus is God. Since He is also the Son of God In a way He is His own Father since He was with the Holy Spirit and the Father in the creation of His flesh.

I said Jesus has existed as God from the Beginning.. Not the beginning of the world but from the beginning of all things.. He has been God from everlasting and will continue to be the Only God to everlasting (Psalm 90:2).. I will not again indulge in the blasphemy of denying that God doesn't know as much as me by saying that I know that Gods other than Him exist (Isaiah 44:8). I will not add my personal desire to change His nature by adding a phrase "For this world" to when Jesus became a God.. I will fight against all who commit that evil to make the Father and Jesus less than He is even if only in their distorted mind..

The Bible teaches us there is ONE GOD, and also Christ teaches us what this means---but he doesn't speak of the trinity, he speaks of complete unity and love---acting in harmony with each other. That is how we can be one with God, one with Christ, one with our spouse. No where does it say, we give up our own consciousness or become the "essence" of the other.

Quote that reference.. You won't find it in the Bible.. That had to come from the inventive mind of Joseph Smith. All you are ready to stand by in that statement is that "The Bible teaches us there is ONE GOD" The rest came from Smith.. Since our marriages are just a picture of the union of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit it has no real connection to their reality. No more than the blood of Oxen and rams had to do with the sacrifice Jesus made for us on the cross. Our marriages are the mist the Unity of God is the reality.. We teach that a husband of wife become one flesh, God IS one being not three..

By understanding the Godhead. Which does not do this double speak found in the trinity.

How is mormonism teaching the truth about God when it comes from their founder that there is not one God but three? Jesus taught that there is one God (Mark 12:29). You see that Jesus was double speaking when He quoted Moses and then said that He is the "I AM"? That He is the God that spoke to Moses from the burning bush? That is double speak? Believing it to be so is blasphemy and you know it.

. It doesn't at all. The main difference between the Godhead and the trinity is that the trinity does not recognize that each "person" of the Godhead has their own consciousness and choices.

Does your body make different decisions than your spirit or your mind or are the decisions the same to all of you? God is one being. That of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.. God decisions are those of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. The difference is you want to make God into three separate Gods.. I agree with the Bible that God is one Lord.. You have created a God that is easier for you to understand, I believe in God the way He is..
Actually, the Godhead fits perfectly, it is the trinity doctrine that fails.

Yes, I understand that the trinity concept makes sex out to be a dirty filthy thing and not something of God.

Biblical belief makes sex to be a physical concept connected to this world. It has nothing to do with the spiritual.. If God the Father is the invisible Person of Spirit that Jesus taught Him to be, sex is NOT something He is or ever has been involved in.. It was Joseph Smith that invented a corporeal god, a sexual god, that god is not found in the Bible.. IHS jim

BigJulie

04-21-2014, 12:46 PM

[QUOTE=James Banta;155218]Do you agree that Mary "was found with child of the Holy Ghost." that "which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost." If you do them why not just call the Holy Ghost the Father? If you don't why do you deny the scripture? Since I believe that God is One, what the scripture teaching about the Holy Spirit doing the Father also does.. Yup, but that does not make God the Father Christ's father. Christ Himself says so many times. He does not say the Holy Ghost is His Father. He designates who is who and what their roles are. Once again, we disagree on what it means to be one.

My point is Jesus is God.. He is called God in scripture. He takes the ***le "I AM" (you have not understand that, but the Jews around Him did and they picked up stones to kill Him for saying that) "I AM" is the name God Told Moses to tell the people who He is.. Jesus used it in reference to Himself.. Jesus accepted worship from Thomas, and then from Peter as they called Him God.. If there is One God then Jesus is God. Since He is also the Son of God In a way He is His own Father since He was with the Holy Spirit and the Father in the creation of His flesh. Yes, Jesus Christ is part of the Godhead, but Jesus Christ speaks of His God. And the one Thomas called God, spoke of His God and His Father.

I said Jesus has existed as God from the Beginning.. Did He exist as Jesus from the beginning--or did that occur when He was born?

Not the beginning of the world but from the beginning of all things.. I don't believe in a beginning as you do....as that speaks to a time before a beginning....which is not possible.

He has been God from everlasting and will continue to be the Only God to everlasting (Psalm 90:2).. Yup, so, this basically undoes the whole "beginning" idea.

I will not again indulge in the blasphemy of denying that God doesn't know as much as me by saying that I know that Gods other than Him exist (Isaiah 44:8). I will not add my personal desire to change His nature by adding a phrase "For this world" to when Jesus became a God.. I will fight against all who commit that evil to make the Father and Jesus less than He is even if only in their distorted mind.. Good. You think God knows less than you? What on earth are you talking about? Where did you come up with this God doesn't know as much as you? Is this because He calls Himself God of gods and Lord of lords---do you interpret this to mean he knows less than you? That is strange. When did you think Christ became God of this world only? That is strange as well. Or did you never learn our doctrine well enough that you missed that we don't believe this as well?

The only evil I see here is by those who put down another religion, especially by bearing false witness against it.

Quote that reference.. You won't find it in the Bible.. That had to come from the inventive mind of Joseph Smith. All you are ready to stand by in that statement is that "The Bible teaches us there is ONE GOD" The rest came from Smith.. Since our marriages are just a picture of the union of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit it has no real connection to their reality. No more than the blood of Oxen and rams had to do with the sacrifice Jesus made for us on the cross. Our marriages are the mist the Unity of God is the reality.. We teach that a husband of wife become one flesh, God IS one being not three.. Oh, I thought you were done with your last comment.

You don't think the sacrifice of a ram had anything to do with the sacrifice Christ made on the cross? Ummm, the ram symbolized Christ--as in when Abraham sacrificed a ram instead of his son....as a symbol of the sacrifice God made for us.

How is mormonism teaching the truth about God when it comes from their founder that there is not one God but three? Jesus taught that there is one God (Mark 12:29). You see that Jesus was double speaking when He quoted Moses and then said that He is the "I AM"? That He is the God that spoke to Moses from the burning bush? That is double speak? Believing it to be so is blasphemy and you know it. You say so yourself when you acknowledge three persons.

Does your body make different decisions than your spirit or your mind or are the decisions the same to all of you? God is one being. That of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.. God decisions are those of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. The difference is you want to make God into three separate Gods.. I agree with the Bible that God is one Lord.. You have created a God that is easier for you to understand, I believe in God the way He is..
Actually, the Godhead fits perfectly, it is the trinity doctrine that fails. Three persons, one being--yeah...that is the part I do not agree with and is not congruent with the Bible. One being would not have a conversation with himself and submit to his own will. It is not only easier to understand the Godhead, it is consistent with the Bible, but the trinity is not.

Biblical belief makes sex to be a physical concept connected to this world. It has nothing to do with the spiritual.. If God the Father is the invisible Person of Spirit that Jesus taught Him to be, sex is NOT something He is or ever has been involved in.. It was Joseph Smith that invented a corporeal god, a sexual god, that god is not found in the Bible.. IHS jim

Oh, that is where we differ. I believe this world was created in such a way as to teach us about God and how He creates. I suppose then, that to you, when we are resurrected, our perfected bodies are sterilized and we are granted a divorce the minute we die. Yes, the idea of sex being fleshy or worldly only is also something not found in the Bible. One of the very first things we learn about Adam and Eve is that God married them and told them to have children. To Mormons, this is why we believe sex is sacred and only to be engaged in under the consent of God. This is why fornication, adultery, pornography and ****sexuality are considered such grave sins---as they go against the very way in which God teaches us to create.

The problem with not understanding the sacred and divine nature of procreation, makes marriage and heterosexuality only an earthly thing that has little to do with heaven. Missing this point misses our divine potential and diminishes the value God places on fidelity and chas***y and why. Yes, we greatly disagree on this point.

RealFakeHair

04-21-2014, 03:08 PM

BigJulie

04-21-2014, 04:51 PM

It is obvious some will never believe the Holy Bible and God's own Words. "There is No other God beside me."
That is what He said. This is why we have the Trinity, because Jesus is also The First and the Last. the Holy Bible doesn't say Jesus is one of the First and the Last.
I believe we Christians have got to just let it go when it come to false Joseph Smith jr. Imaginary mind mormon gods.

And it is obvious that some will never understand that there are others who, as explained so fully, do not see it as you do. I believe this is why it is so important that the Holy Ghost does the explaining when it comes to the words in the Bible.

The trinity, to me, is a doctrine made by men as a way to please all of these different arguments. I agree, you just have to let it go---so sad though, that one church derides another--when in reality, there is plenty of evil in the world to be confronted and much suffering as a result of it.

Billyray

04-21-2014, 07:59 PM

Yes, as the Nicene creed was a creed made by men and Joseph Smith received revelation.
The "Nicene creed" is a huge topic among mormons as IF it somehow bolsters their own beliefs and discredits Christianity. Why do you think that is BigJ since the basis for Christian beliefs is the Bible NOT extra Biblical writings?

Billyray

04-21-2014, 08:01 PM

The problem with the trinity for me is it doesn't recognize God the Father as Christ's Father---but something else...or as Billyray states, God entered his own creation type thing.
I believe in the Trinity and I believe that the Father is the Father and the Son is the Son. So I am not sure what you are talking about exactly. Could you restate what you meant exactly?

Billyray

04-21-2014, 08:05 PM

BigJulie

04-21-2014, 09:36 PM

I would like to sort this out with you so I can understand your position. Trust me I am really interested how you justify your position with respect to what the Bible teaches--so permit me to ask you a couple of pointed questions one by one so I can truly understand your beliefs.

1. Is Jesus God?

Billyray, I know you well enough to know that you do one of two things---either you attempt to lead me down a path so you can do a "gotcha" kind of approach (same approach the Pharisees attempted with Christ, btw) or you just repeat the same questions over and over again.

I will spell it out for you. I don't agree with the trinity in that it doesn't allow for the understanding that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. I don't agree with the trinity because, I believe, it uses double talk to make a position---3 persons, one being....I just say 3 persons, one Godhead. The trinity does not allow for the separation of consciousness. We can clearly see that Christ says, "thy will, not mine"--when speaking of His Father. To me, the trinity goes against these concepts. I have spelled it out many times. I have also explained how and why I see what the word "One" means and I have explained it using Christ's own words.

I think the biggest problem with the trinity is that it denies that we are made in God's image and likeness and it denies that Christ is the express image of the Father.

To put it frankly, I know you don't agree with my beliefs. I know you want to find fault in them. I have explained to you why I do not find the trinity Biblical.

So, to answer your question...I will give you Christ's own words.

Matthew 16:15-16 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

So, I wonder, can you acknowledge that Christ is the Son of the Living God?

BigJulie

04-21-2014, 09:38 PM

The "Nicene creed" is a huge topic among mormons as IF it somehow bolsters their own beliefs and discredits Christianity. Why do you think that is BigJ since the basis for Christian beliefs is the Bible NOT extra Biblical writings?

No, the Nicene creed is not a huge topic to Mormons...I only bring it up to non-Mormons who attack my beliefs.

Libby

04-21-2014, 09:41 PM

Billyray, I know you well enough to know that you do one of two things---either you attempt to lead me down a path so you can do a "gotcha" kind of approach (same approach the Pharisees attempted with Christ, btw) or you just repeat the same questions over and over again.

Yep, that is Billyray, in a nutshell.

BigJulie

04-21-2014, 09:49 PM

Yep, that is Billyray, in a nutshell.

Libby, I hope you can appreciate that I am completely fine with people as they try to learn about God and follow what they believe and think is right. I think the more people do that the better. I feel strongly about my beliefs, and I know you do to.

But, I just don't get someone thinking that someone's beliefs are not "biblical" if another doesn't read or understand the Bible the same way they do. Personally, I think there is so much wickedness is the world, those who believe in Christ should not spend their time attacking each other and rather, join together to address some of these greater issues. For example, I think we can all agree that the child slave industry (used for terrible purposes) should be attacked with all the might we have. Hunger is another one we can all agree on, I am sure.

While I do not wish to attack the trinity---well, I guess I did with my response to your post---I just wish that there are those who can see that reasonable people, who are capable of thinking abstractly (and that my non-acceptance of the trinity has nothing to do with my not being able to understand abstract ideas) do not agree that the Bible necessarily backs the trinity--and it has nothing to do with my inability to see your point or others.

Yet, I believe strongly enough about religions attacking other religions, that I personally believe that Walter Martin has spread a great evil. In his desire to do good, he has turned one person against another. And in the end, I think his type of thinking---and others like him, is one of the main reasons we are seeing secularism on the rise in the US. Why? Because every religion relies on faith to a certain degree. Once you can argue away faith and ask people to rely on your own brand of thinking---it is not that hard to turn away from that brand of thinking as well---as God does require faith.

Libby

04-21-2014, 09:55 PM

BigJulie

04-21-2014, 10:01 PM

Yes, I did see your post about the Trinity, and then you got involved with others, so I didn't pursue it. Like I said, I don't really understand it; I just a sort of have a sense of it and how it might work. I can certainly understand why people might see it in other ways. I did for a long time. It does seem like kind of a waste of time to focus on that.

My real issues with Mormonism have more to do with the history of Joseph Smith than with the doctrinal issues. I can embrace some of the doctrine, even still, but the other was too disturbing to me. Even so, I'm not really inclined to judge (most of the time). I don't think that's what we are supposed to be doing here (on earth). I will leave the judging to God.

I can appreciate that. To me, history of Joseph Smith (when I have looked into it) becomes more like 200 year old gossip. One side says this, the other side says that. But the truth is---if I had a next door neighbor who someone made the same accusations about and others defended---it would not be any easier today to really ascertain the truth. Mainly because the only ones who really know the history are the ones who live it.

So, my testimony of Joseph Smith does not lie in what happened 200 years ago, but what I experience today. If I pray about his teachings, do I get an answer? If I live by that answer, do I recognize good? If I see good, do I know by my own experiences the truth of it? Yes.

I have often thought that is why Christ stated, "For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them."

I have come to understand that we really only know Christ when we let go of all the garbage around us and experience him with our own ears, eyes, and heart. (In other words, what we live today.)

Libby

04-21-2014, 10:06 PM

I have come to understand that we really only know Christ when we let go of all the garbage around us and experience him with our own ears, eyes, and heart. (In other words, what we live today.)

I very much agree with that. I think it is our own experience with the Holy Spirit and God's Word that is important. We are all going to misunderstand and misinterpret some things, but perhaps not nearly as much as we might, if we always listen to others, instead of trusting the Spirit in us. I do believe God speaks to us directly and very personally.

BigJulie

04-21-2014, 10:18 PM

I very much agree with that. I think it is our own experience with the Holy Spirit and God's Word that is important. We are all going to misunderstand and misinterpret some things, but perhaps not nearly as much as we might, if we always listen to others, instead of trusting the Spirit in us. I do believe God speaks to us directly and very personally.

In this, yes, we very much agree. Thank goodness, God loves all of us so much that if we seek Him, he is there. :)

Billyray

04-22-2014, 12:02 AM

So are you now in agreement that God enters his own creation in the person of Jesus?

Not at all.

I would like to sort this out with you so I can understand your position. Trust me I am really interested how you justify your position with respect to what the Bible teaches--so permit me to ask you a couple of pointed questions one by one so I can truly understand your beliefs.

1. Is Jesus God?

Billyray, I know you well enough to know that you do one of two things---either you attempt to lead me down a path so you can do a "gotcha" kind of approach (same approach the Pharisees attempted with Christ, btw) or you just repeat the same questions over and over again.

BigJ I am not trying to trick you--rather trying to show you that what you said was false. My question was a simple one--one that I know you can answer. Here it is again for you.

Is Jesus God?

Billyray

04-22-2014, 12:05 AM

Yep, that is Billyray, in a nutshell.

I am not trying to trick you or BigJ. Rather I am trying to show you that your beliefs are either inconsistent with the Bible OR that you are flat out ignoring p***ages in the Bible. A perfect example is when I showed you the verses from John 6--you simply refused to address them because they are inconsistent with your position.

Libby

04-22-2014, 12:11 AM

I am not trying to trick you or BigJ. Rather I am trying to show you that your beliefs are either inconsistent with the Bible OR that you are flat out ignoring p***ages in the Bible. A perfect example is when I showed you the verses from John 6--you simply refused to address them because they are inconsistent with your position.

I am not ignoring anything. I told you I agreed with John 6 and that you are reading things into it that are not there. You ignore responses, when they are not in line with what you are expecting or wanting someone to say. You will ignore responses and then claim the person never responded and ask the question again and again, as if it were never answered. I've tried to have a "real" conversation with you, many times, Billy. I don't think it's possible.

Billyray

04-22-2014, 12:29 AM

I told you I agreed with John 6 and that you are reading things into it that are not there.
John 6
37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.
38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me.
39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.

Let's start with verse 37. Who are those that the Father gives to the Son? All people or a subset of the population?

Billyray

04-22-2014, 12:43 AM

You ignore responses, when they are not in line with what you are expecting or wanting someone to say. You will ignore responses and then claim the person never responded and ask the question again and again, as if it were never answered.
Libby, you and BigJ do the same thing in many of your posts--you both ignore many p***ages that I bring up--and the only real explanation is that it contradicts your position.

I would love to see your reasoning on the verses that I gave in John 6 particularly verse 37. You said that you gave me a response can you point me to your post where you discussed this verse?

Libby

04-22-2014, 01:04 AM

Let's start with verse 37. Who are those that the Father gives to the Son? All people or a subset of the population?

The people given by the Father to the Son are those who responded to His drawing.

Billyray

04-22-2014, 01:23 AM

The people given by the Father to the Son are those who responded to His drawing.
John 6:37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.*

Good--you believe that "All" in verse 37 is a subset of the population and not every single person--and I agree.

Now can you tell me what these people did exactly in order for the Father to give them to the Son?

alanmolstad

04-22-2014, 04:18 AM

Very good Libby,
I will show you how a Calvinist will totally screw up their own question, and have no clue that they are doing so.

lets take for example Billy's question to you as our example -
John 6:37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.*

Good--you believe that "All" in verse 37 is a subset of the population and not every single person--and I agree.

Now can you tell me what these people did exactly in order for the Father to give them to the Son?

Do you see how they have a verse that is addressing the issue from the POV of God, and then twist it around and try to make it a question from the POV of man?

They have no clue they do this....

None of the Calvinists I have seen lately know that they commit this error.

This is just what I was talking about before when I gave the example that a Calvinist might ask me, "Alan do you believe in predestination of the believer?"..and i would answer "YES!".....only to see them turn around and ask me, "But Alan you said that men have free will and unless they use their free will to make the free choice to come to god they are lost?"....

Calvinists dont understand their error in POV .
"predestination " is looking at the issue from the POV of God.
"Free Will" is looking at the issue from the POV of man.

The two dont mix.

The rule you got to keep is that if you are looking at this topic from the POV of God (as in Billy's Bible quotation) they you have to maintain that POV of view in your thinking too.
You cant take a verse that it teaching about the POV of God, and twist it into being a teaching about the POV of mankind.

If you try to do that, you will never understand ....

And this is the answer.
Walter Martin talks about this in the recording I have linked here.
This is why Walter came to the same conclusion that i have, that being that Calvinism as a general teaching is in error, but that parts of Calvinism are correct.

The only conclusion supported by the bible is-
Man does indeed have Free Will......."and"......God is sovereign.

Billyray

04-22-2014, 04:22 AM

Very good Libby,
I will show you how a Calvinist will totally screw up their own question, and have no clue that they are doing so.

John 6:37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.

I welcome your explanation of this section of scripture Alan. Start with this verse and tell me what it means and then we can move on to the surrounding verses.

alanmolstad

04-22-2014, 04:29 AM

alanmolstad

04-22-2014, 04:31 AM

Nothing I can say will matter to someone who simply does not see the error in the point of view they take...

alanmolstad

04-22-2014, 04:34 AM

If you take a bible verse that is clearly teaching about man's Free Will....then that has to be maintained in what you seek in questions later.

Man has Free Will.....the Bible clearly teaches that unless you make the free choice to believe you will remain lost forever.
Free Will gives us the ability to do as the lord shouts and "repent"

Unless you repent with a heart that is free to do so, your act of repentance is a joke.

So all of the bible verses that a person may use to prove man does have a Free Will should only be used to look at this issue from man's POV.....

So, understand that so far?

alanmolstad

04-22-2014, 04:37 AM

In the same way....

all the Bible verses that prove 100% that God is sovereign must be understood to be addressing this issue from the POV of God's.

You have to maintain that POV or you will simply get messed up again and again...as you try to use a verse that is written with one POV to try to teach answers on a different POV.

You have to maintain the correct POV as is found in the Bible verse we may quote.

alanmolstad

04-22-2014, 04:40 AM

This is the error as far as i can see of what Calvinism got wrong.

but the good news is, is that calvinism did not fall from heaven....

calvinism is just a dreamed up teaching of flawed men's minds.

And so you can reject it.
or you can reject parts of it....as Walter Martin and myself have concluded is the correct position to take on this issue.

I dont toss the baby out with the dirty bath water.

alanmolstad

04-22-2014, 04:52 AM

I dont toss the baby out with the dirty bath water.

This is something I learned from Walter Martin.
For Walter was always pointing out to people that just because a teaching had a few errors, you dont need to conclude that "everything" that the teaching was connected to was also error.

If there are parts of a teaching that are correct, dont ***ume that you have to paint the true things with the same brush that you paint the known errors.

But that is a problem because we humans tend to have personal needs to make 'everything" connected to a teaching we disagree with 'look' equally in error.

we tend to paint teachings with a wide and sloppy brush.

Libby

04-22-2014, 12:22 PM

John 6:37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.*

Good--you believe that "All" in verse 37 is a subset of the population and not every single person--and I agree.

Now can you tell me what these people did exactly in order for the Father to give them to the Son?

They responded to God's drawing.

Where we differ, Billy, is in whom God draws. The Bible says that God wishes all to be saved. If that's the case, he must be drawing ALL of us...not just a select few, as most Calvinists believe. Only some will answer the call, many others will reject him. But, they all have the same opportunity, the same ability to overcome. There are no special "chosen" who receive God's grace and added ability over others. God chooses those, who choose Him. Those who choose him, do so of their own will and desire....not because God "tweeked" their will.

James Banta

04-22-2014, 12:46 PM

They responded to God's drawing.

Where we differ, Billy, is in whom God draws. The Bible says that God wishes all to be saved. If that's the case, he must be drawing ALL of us...not just a select few, as most Calvinists believe. Only some will answer the call, many others will reject him. But, they all have the same opportunity, the same ability to overcome. There are no special "chosen" who receive God's grace and added ability over others. God chooses those, who choose Him. Those who choose him, do so of their own will and desire....not because God "tweeked" their will.

God will is that all men would come to Jesus and receive life.. Do you doubt that God knows the beginning from the end. That He knows you personally.. Not just that you exist but ever small detail of who you are and what you will do for the rest of your days, right down to the exact time you fall asleep at night to the very second you awaken and rise? Does he force people to believe on Jesus? No, of course not. But he does know who will and who will not accept Him.. Those that He knows will respond are those predestined to life.. Those who He knows will reject Him are predestined to the Lake of Fire.. This confirms God omniscience. To deny Calvinism in the doctrine of selective grace is to deny the all knowing God.. IHS jim

Billyray

04-22-2014, 05:55 PM

They responded to God's drawing.

And what did these people do exactly when they "responded to God's drawing" in order for the Father to give them to the Son?

Billyray

04-22-2014, 06:05 PM

The Bible says that God wishes all to be saved.
If God wanted for every single person to be saved then why aren't all people saved?

Billyray

04-22-2014, 06:10 PM

John 6:37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.

I welcome your explanation of this section of scripture Alan. Start with this verse and tell me what it means and then we can move on to the surrounding verses.

Billy, you confuse the POV between the bible text you quote, and the question you ask...

Stop doing that and all your misunderstandings about what the Bible verse is teaching will go away.
Alan you ***ume that I am wrong and that you are right--I welcome you disagreement--that is why I would like for you to give me your take on this section of scripture. I have asked you to do so in a prior post but thus far you have failed to do so. Here is the section of scripture again. Let's start with John 6:37.

John 6:37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.

alanmolstad

04-22-2014, 06:10 PM

some Calvinists believe that God used his ability to see the future, in order to know whom he should call.

This is wrong.

alanmolstad

04-22-2014, 06:15 PM

Alan you ***ume that I am wrong and that you are right--I welcome you disagreement--that is why I would like for you to give me your take on this section of scripture. I have asked you to do so in a prior post but thus far you have failed to do so. Here is the section of scripture again. Let's start with John 6:37.

John 6:37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.

I have a few things to post, then I will go over any Bible verse yoiu have a question about it...

But in the end, the final conclusion I will come to is "Man has Free Will, and God is Sovereign! "

Billyray

04-22-2014, 06:23 PM

If that's the case, he must be drawing ALL of us...not just a select few, as most Calvinists believe.
Let's look at the verse that you are referring to in John 6

John 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

It says that God "draws him" AND Jesus "raised him". So your position is that these are two different groups of people?

Billyray

04-22-2014, 06:24 PM

I have a few things to post, then I will go over any Bible verse yoiu have a question about it...

Why not discuss this verse since it has been the topic for the last couple of pages. Since you think that you are right and I am clearly wrong it should be easy for you to simply tell me what this verse is speaking about.

alanmolstad

04-22-2014, 06:29 PM

Billy....

I have free time, (and the free will) to post a few thoughts tonight.

John 5:39-40
"You study the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me,yet you refuse to come to me to have life."

In this verse we see Jesus confirm the idea that people have the ability to choose.
This is dependent on our Human free Will.

If humans did not have Free Will, then Jesus would be unable to say, the people "refused' to come to him and have life.
if we had no free will then the only thing Jesus would be allowed to say is that the people were "unable" to come to him.

refuse = a Free Will choice
unable = a lack of Free Will.

Refuse is correct.
-----------------------------------------------------------

alanmolstad

04-22-2014, 06:40 PM

Luke 13:34
"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!"

In this verse we again see Jesus confirm the idea that men have Free Wills and are able all on their own to respond to the calling of God.

Jesus makes use of the words "would not" when telling us why the people were not responding correctly to God's call.
The words "would not" tell us that people alone are responsible for both their failure, or success in how they respond to God's call.

would not tells us that jesus believes we have Free Will.
had Jesus believe that people did not have Free Will, then he would have been unable to use the words, "would not"

"Would Not" carries the context of having the ability but refusing to.

This is different than the words "Could not"

Had Jesus said the people "could not" come to him it would have been teaching that the people on their own lacked the ability to choose God.

"would not" = Free will

"could not" = lacks ability and necessary Free Will.

Would not is correct.

alanmolstad

04-22-2014, 06:54 PM

So Billy...

We have now looked at two sections of the Bible that clearly teach that man has free will, and that we have the ability to find God free of any interference and needing anything to push us in the direction.

The verses look at this issue from man's POV...

The POV of the verse is key...it helps us stay on-track with any other questions or teachings we may try to draw out for the Text.

The verses are dealing with the universe as seen from the Point of View of a man, looking at himself and the world he lives in.

we have free will.
there is no giant hand reaching down from heaven controling our actions.

we are responsible for the flaws we are guilty of.
We alone are to blame when we fall into sin.
We alone are to blame for not digging our own way out of sin by coming to Christ and finding salvation.

So, Man has free will....case-closed.

But now its time to turn our attention to the other side of this issue, and look at things from the standpoint of God's sovereignty.

alanmolstad

04-22-2014, 07:06 PM

John 6:44
"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day."

Here we see a verse teaching the clear idea that god does not just sit on the sidelines, but actually takes action independent of the actions of men.

This is supporting the idea taught by Walter martin, that upon entering into the joys of the Kingdom, we look back at the gate and see, the sign written there of "You did not choose me, but I chose you before the foundation of the world"

God's predestination is not based on his first looking into the future and copying down all the names of then people who finally believe, (and thus informing God what people are safe to call).......NO!

Both God's foreknowledge and his predestination are part of His sovereignty!

God does not have to look into the future to see what people end up believing so he knows who to call....that silly line of thinking makes God appear like a kid cheating on a math test by looking in the back of the book to find the answers....LOL

God does not need his foreknowledge to decide who gets predestination.
(please note this James)

Nor does God need his predestination so he can have foreknowledge as to who gets saved in the end...

This is the very heart of God's Sovereignty over His creation!

So to review:
Man has Free Will, and God is Sovereign.

alanmolstad

04-22-2014, 07:14 PM

so....Billy...

That above is how you look at this issue and maintain your POV at all times so that you do not get mixed-up.

if a verse is dealing with God's Point Of View, then the lesson you can learn in the verse must be centered around the POV, or you will get mixed up

if a verse is dealing with our human POV, then the lessons you can learn from the verse must always be centered around the idea that the verse is looking at the universe from man's POV...

Billyray

04-22-2014, 07:17 PM

John 6:44
"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day."

Draws him and raises him. Is the first "him" and the second "him" the same group of people or different groups of people?

Billyray

04-22-2014, 07:20 PM

Billy....

I have free time, (and the free will) to post a few thoughts tonight.

Great. Since you have from time why don't we start with the verse in John 6 since you told me that I had the incorrect understanding of this verse and you had the correct view. Here it is again for you.

John 6:37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.

I welcome your explanation of this section of scripture Alan. Start with this verse and tell me what it means and then we can move on to the surrounding verses.

Billyray

04-22-2014, 07:22 PM

alanmolstad

04-22-2014, 07:29 PM

Draws him and raises him. Is the first "him" and the second "him" the same group of people or different groups of people?
again you dont see how you screw up your own question?.........after all my attempts you still make the same mistakes.....

Billyray

04-22-2014, 07:32 PM

again you dont see how you screw up your own question?.........after all my attempts you still make the same mistakes.....
Alan do you have an answer for me?

Draws him and raises him. Is the first "him" and the second "him" the same group of people or different groups of people?

alanmolstad

04-22-2014, 07:32 PM

Can a man come to Christ on his own free will without being drawn by the Father?

once again......you point to my post that is cenertered around the human pov.....and try to learn other pov things.......

cant happen....you only screw yourself up

alanmolstad

04-22-2014, 07:35 PM

Alan do you have an answer for me?

the thing i have shown you is that pov is key...

alanmolstad

04-22-2014, 07:37 PM

on phone now....

the wife tells me that my laptop just got so hot that the chip popped off the motherboard.......

alanmolstad

04-22-2014, 07:38 PM

wife says she fix tomorrow with glue........

alanmolstad

04-22-2014, 07:48 PM

Can a man come to Christ on his own free will without being drawn by the Father?
lets look at the 2 verses i listed with the human pov.....

jesus tells the people that they "would not " come to him.
does jesus tell them that they lacked something?;; .......NO!

so according to jesus the people of the city already had what they needed to come to him....so they did not need any " push " from God.

this means that from their point of view they were guilty.

if is was true that the only reason the people had not come to god was that god had not drawn them then this would mean they " could not" come to jesus.......not " would not"..

it would also mean god was 100% to blame for theor lack of faith.

so if we are asking " Are the people not going to jesus due to god not first calling them? "...... the answer is no

as understood from the human pov

alanmolstad

04-22-2014, 07:53 PM

so......we dont need to sit around and wait for god to call us......

the bible clearly teaches us that jesus believes we have enough to come to him right now......

this is the power of human free will in action.
you can use our free will to seek god and find him right now.....

this is why we have free will.....

but now lets look at the same question and same situation from gods pov.......

" would not" means the people could have...but chose not to.

thats key....

the moment jesus said " would not" he was teaching that the people lacked nothing to believe.

if the people needed anything yet befor they would believe then jesus would have had to admit that the people " could not " beliege until god got off his but and did something first.

" could not" would mean its up to someone else and is not up to us to do by ourselves.

" would not" means we cant blame god for not coming to him in faith.

alanmolstad

04-22-2014, 07:54 PM

when we look at the same issue with gods pov....we get a vastly different answer.....as is expected

alanmolstad

04-22-2014, 07:56 PM

god is sovereign .....

as such he draws us to himself while we are yet strangers to homed

Billyray

04-22-2014, 08:07 PM

Those who choose him, do so of their own will and desire....not because God "tweeked" their will.
Can a person come to Christ on their own free will without being drawn by the Father?

Billyray

04-22-2014, 08:11 PM

Can a man come to Christ on his own free will without being drawn by the Father?

lets look at the 2 verses i listed with the human pov.....

jesus tells the people that they "would not " come to him.
does jesus tell them that they lacked something?;; .......NO!

so according to jesus the people of the city already had what they needed to come to him....so they did not need any " push " from God.

this means that from their point of view they were guilty.

if is was true that the only reason the people had not come to god was that god had not drawn them then this would mean they " could not" come to jesus.......not " would not"..

it would also mean god was 100% to blame for theor lack of faith.

so if we are asking " Are the people not going to jesus due to god not first calling them? "...... the answer is no

as understood from the human pov
Alan I don't see a direct answer to my question but it appears that your position is that a person has the free will to come to Christ without being drawn by the Father. Is that what you believe?

alanmolstad

04-22-2014, 08:14 PM

Alan I don't see a direct answer to my question but it appears that your position is that a person has the free will to come to Christ without being drawn by the Father. Is that what you believe?

you misquote my views....and you still want me to answer your question?

alanmolstad

04-22-2014, 08:15 PM

alanmolstad

04-22-2014, 08:24 PM

you misquote my views....and you still want me to answer your question?

Alan I don't see a direct answer to my question but it appears that your position is that a person has the free will to come to Christ without being drawn by the Father. Is that what you believe?

you tossed the baby with the bath water.....

Billyray

04-22-2014, 08:49 PM

see post 379
I looked at post 379 and I don't see a direct answer to my question. My question is a very simple and straightforward that requires a simple yes or no to answer.

Can a person come to Christ on their own free will without being drawn by the Father?

Libby

04-22-2014, 09:21 PM

Billyray

04-23-2014, 12:23 AM

Can a person come to Christ on their own free will without being drawn by the Father?

No. But, neither do I believe that God's "drawing" interferes with free will. It simply let's us know that God is there.
How can you go on and on about free will to choose Christ when you admit that man can't choose Christ on their own?

Libby

04-23-2014, 12:40 AM

How can you go on and on about free will to choose Christ when you admit that man can't choose Christ on their own?

What has God's "drawing" to do with free will?

God drawing our attention to him, bringing His Presence to our attention has nothing to do with our ability to choose. It doesn't corrupt our will. The "drawing" makes us aware that their is a choice to be made.

Billyray

04-23-2014, 01:15 AM

What has God's "drawing" to do with free will?

You just said that man cannot choose Christ on his own. Right? So how on earth can you say that man has free will to choose Christ?

Billyray

04-23-2014, 01:19 AM

What has God's "drawing" to do with free will?

God drawing our attention to him, bringing His Presence to our attention has nothing to do with our ability to choose.
So "drawing" simply means that God draws our attention to him? And when you say this what exactly does this mean?

Libby

04-23-2014, 01:31 AM

So "drawing" simply means that God draws our attention to him? And when you say this what exactly does this mean?

Well, I think it's more than that. I think he makes himself known in many ways and tugs at our hearts. His spirit is all over scripture and will often cause people to reflect on him and feel this "tugging" at their hearts, when they read his word.

But, the same thing can happen in a variety of ways. Nature, inspired writings, the testimony of another Christian, etc. That is all a part of his "drawing" us.

Billyray

04-23-2014, 01:38 AM

Well, I think it's more than that. I think he makes himself known in many ways and tugs at our hearts. His spirit is all over scripture and will often cause people to reflect on him and feel this "tugging" at their hearts, when they read his word.

But, the same thing can happen in a variety of ways. Nature, inspired writings, the testimony of another Christian, etc. That is all a part of his "drawing" us.
And without this "tugging at our hearts" no man can or will come to Christ. Right? Man is unable to come to Christ. BTW this sounds a lot like Calvinism NOT the free will that you keep promoting on this board.

Libby

04-23-2014, 02:04 AM

And without this "tugging at our hearts" no man can or will come to Christ. Right? Man is unable to come to Christ. BTW this sounds a lot like Calvinism NOT the free will that you keep promoting on this board.

If that's what you think, you are either not reading or not understanding my posts.

Why do you believe God's drawing us, affects our free will? You can be attracted to someone and still not choose to interact with them, right? So, why is it you are insisting that God's drawing us, necessarily, affects our free will? It doesn't, IMO. Why would it? There is no logical reason why it should. You are just used to thinking about it in your own terms.

Billyray

04-23-2014, 02:27 AM

If that's what you think, you are either not reading or not understanding my posts.

Why do you believe God's drawing us, affects our free will? You can be attracted to someone and still not choose to interact with them, right? So, why is it you are insisting that God's drawing us, necessarily, affects our free will? It doesn't, IMO. Why would it? There is no logical reason why it should. You are just used to thinking about it in your own terms.

I have read your posts and I don't understand how you can hold the position you do especially after you told me that man is incapable of coming to Christ unless God intervenes and draws him first. Did I misstate your position? If so please help me understand what you really believe.

alanmolstad

04-23-2014, 02:53 AM

so billy......did the people that jesus wept over and said they " would not" come to him actually have a way to put the blame on to god for not drawing them first?......... the answer is no.

alanmolstad

04-23-2014, 03:00 AM

the reason we can not blame god for not drawing us first to him ( as the Bible says god must first draw men to himself) is that on the cross christ drew " all men".

sio god soveringhty draws men and mans free will allows him to seek god

Billyray

04-23-2014, 03:06 AM

so billy......did the people that jesus wept over and said they " would not" come to him actually have a way to put the blame on to god for not drawing them first?......... the answer is no.

All people are responsible for their choices.

alanmolstad

04-23-2014, 03:06 AM

I looked at post 379 and I don't see a direct answer to my question. My question is a very simple and straightforward that requires a simple yes or no to answer.

Can a person come to Christ on their own free will without being drawn by the Father?
read the 3 rd paragraph....lol

as walter said....we enter heaven on our own as an act of will...this is mans Free awill...

but once inside we see the sign inside the door that reads that god chose us first.

alanmolstad

04-23-2014, 03:09 AM

All people are responsible for their choices.

yes!

free will means that not only can we always seek god it also means we cant blame god for not seeking him

alanmolstad

04-23-2014, 03:09 AM

typing on phone sux

Billyray

04-23-2014, 03:12 AM

sio god soveringhty draws men and mans free will allows him to seek god

Webster Dictionary

FREE WILL
Full Definition of FREE WILL

1. voluntary choice or decision <I do this of my own free will
2. freedom of humans to make choices that are not determined by prior causes or by divine intervention

I am still puzzled by your continued use of the term "free will" when you statement above clearly shows that what you are talking about can't possibly be free will by the dictionary definition since you believe that God's intervention is required for man to accept Christ. BTW don't feel alone because Libby and many other mormons are guilty of the same error.

alanmolstad

04-23-2014, 03:24 AM

I am still puzzled by your continued use of the term "free will" when you statement above clearly shows that what you are talking about can't possibly be free will by the dictionary definition since you believe that God's intervention is required for man to accept Christ. BTW don't feel alone because Libby and many other mormons are guilty of the same error.

baby with the bath water again Billy Billy Billy.......

must i start all over?

alanmolstad

04-23-2014, 03:25 AM

man hhas free will and god is in control

alanmolstad

04-23-2014, 03:27 AM

" would not" means thy could have.

they lacked nothing....they had what they needed

alanmolstad

04-23-2014, 03:29 AM

" would not" means they cant blame god fot not doing something first.

alanmolstad

04-23-2014, 03:33 AM

How can you go on and on about free will to choose Christ when you admit that man can't choose Christ on their own?

LOL......like i said...

Calvinist hate the words Free Will.....

Billyray

04-23-2014, 03:35 AM

LOL......like i said...

Calvinist hate the words Free Will.....
Did you happen to see my post above?

sio god soveringhty draws men and mans free will allows him to seek god

Webster Dictionary

FREE WILL
Full Definition of FREE WILL

1. voluntary choice or decision <I do this of my own free will
2. freedom of humans to make choices that are not determined by prior causes or by divine intervention

I am still puzzled by your continued use of the term "free will" when you statement above clearly shows that what you are talking about can't possibly be free will by the dictionary definition since you believe that God's intervention is required for man to accept Christ. BTW don't feel alone because Libby and many other mormons are guilty of the same error.

Billyray

04-23-2014, 03:37 AM

LOL......like i said...

Calvinist hate the words Free Will.....
Does man have the free will (or ability) to come to Christ without divine intervention?

alanmolstad

04-23-2014, 04:08 AM

billy....the " would not" verse tells us that we have free will.....the JOHN 6 verse tells us that godnis in control

alanmolstad

04-23-2014, 04:30 AM

Does man have the free will (or ability) to come to Christ without divine intervention?

can anyone innhell blame god?

cannanyonenin hell say that the only reason they were in hell was due to a lack of calling on gods part?

NO! !!!!

we have free will and god has already called " all men" in christ

alanmolstad

04-23-2014, 04:35 AM

so free will means we cant blame god for when we go to hell.

free will means we already have what is needed to believe.
nothing more is needed....nothing more is ever going to come that is needed.

free will means we are 100% to blame for not believeing god

if this was not 100% true then jesus would have told the people of the city that they " could not" believe.....

alanmolstad

04-23-2014, 04:37 AM

so it is totally correct to believe that both man has free will AND that god is in full control

for that is what the bible teaches!

alanmolstad

04-23-2014, 04:44 AM

the bible teaches that god has called "all men" ......not " some men".

if god has not already called all.men then some in hell would be there only due to gods lack of calling....and that would mean they are in hell via not fault of their ownn. and that would mean we worship the wrong god

disciple

04-23-2014, 05:44 AM

so it is totally correct to believe that both man has free will AND that god is in full control

for that is what the bible teaches!

You are correct Alan. There can be no true fact that does not ultimately point back to God. All truth, upon ****ysis drives one right to Jesus Christ, our
reasoning is worthless unless it is based on the truth of the scriptures. God draws men to Himself, provides choices, gives us His word to measure
these choices and then the freedom to choose. To choose what He presents as right and good, even if we do not understand it (faith) or to choose
some other way and there are many.

Billyray

04-23-2014, 02:10 PM

alanmolstad

04-23-2014, 03:35 PM

Your post is not very clear. Is that a yes or a no to my question?

when do i answer with just a yes or no?......

ever?.............

alanmolstad

04-23-2014, 03:40 PM

so man has free will.....but the lord also is in control....

here is a question for you Billy......when the lord cried over the people of the city.....did they lack something that made them unable to come to god?

or when jeusus tells them they " would not" does this place the blame onto the people themselves?

what really is the difference between " would not" and " could not?

alanmolstad

04-23-2014, 04:11 PM

so no man comes to faith in christ but that the father first draw him...

for the calling is to "all men"......

this means that the father is busy each day drawing all men to the son.

But Alan if the father draws all men why do some men not believe?........FREE WILL!

Free Will is why some dont believe......this is why men are to blame for not believeing because all men did receive a calling...the calling of god goes out to "ALL MEN"

so the cross of christ is sufficient to save all men...for that was god's will...

But the cross is efficient only in the hearts of they that respond...for that is the way Free Will works...

RealFakeHair

04-23-2014, 04:43 PM

alanmolstad

04-23-2014, 05:13 PM

Is what you are saying is this; each day God of the Holy Bible has his fingers crossed hoping all men will come to him that day?

the invisible things of god are revealed in the things that are made....therefor all men are without excuse.

the things that are made reveal gods handywork and love each day...

so god draws all men every day...

but humans have free will and that is why some people quench the Spirit's fire in their heart

alanmolstad

04-23-2014, 05:17 PM

Is what you are saying is this; each day God of the Holy Bible has his fingers crossed hoping all men will come to him that day?

i do not know of a verse that deals with the fingers....but i do have a verse that teaches god would have gathered people under his wings like a hen gathers her chicks...but the people refused.

free will allows you the ability to seek god and turn your heart to him but it also gives you the ability to say " no" to him....

Libby

04-23-2014, 05:19 PM

I have read your posts and I don't understand how you can hold the position you do especially after you told me that man is incapable of coming to Christ unless God intervenes and draws him first. Did I misstate your position? If so please help me understand what you really believe.

My position has been stated very clearly in every post I've made, Billy. If you can't understand plain English, I can't help you.

James Banta

04-23-2014, 05:33 PM

My position has been stated very clearly in every post I've made, Billy. If you can't understand plain English, I can't help you.

Libby has never dealt with the question of whether God knows who will come to Him and who will not.. Did He or did He not always have that knowledge? If He has always known (that is my position) why would it be wrong to destine all He knew would come to Him unto life and those He knew would reject Him to ****ation in the Lake of Fire? By saying that predestination is a lie is to limit the power and omniscience of God. In short they limit God and lessen his power.. That is Blasphemy.. Libby can go on committing that sin but in doing she proves that she is not His child.. IHS jim

alanmolstad

04-23-2014, 05:40 PM

there is not a single verse in the bible to support the idea that God predestined people to hell....!

alanmolstad

04-23-2014, 05:42 PM

the people that think God predestined people to hell have a very poor grasp of our Loving God

James Banta

04-23-2014, 06:10 PM

the people that think God predestined people to hell have a very poor grasp of our Loving God

You are kidding right? Even though such people are so predestined Jesus still went to the cross and died for them.. The gate is wide open. Just because God has knowledge of who and who will not come through that gate has nothing to do with not understanding the level of Love that was shown in that act.. Maybe it's those that can't accept that God is omniscient that have a very poor grasp of our Loving God.. IHS jim

alanmolstad

04-23-2014, 06:14 PM

You are kidding right? Even though such people are so predestined Jesus still went to the cross and died for them.. The gate is wide open. Just because God has knowledge of who and who will not come through that gate has nothing to do with not understanding the level of Love that was shown in that act.. Maybe it's those that can't accept that God is omniscient that have a very poor grasp of our Loving God.. IHS jim

try to find a verse in the bible that teaches that god predestined some people to hell............try......

alanmolstad

04-23-2014, 06:23 PM

http://www.whatchristianswanttoknow.com/does-god-predestine-people-to-hell-a-bible-study/

a article about how human free will and gods sovereignty work hand in hand and dont get each others way

alanmolstad

04-23-2014, 06:25 PM

god does not predestine people to hell.......

in other words God does not send anyone to hell.....

Billyray

04-23-2014, 06:47 PM

My position has been stated very clearly in every post I've made, Billy. If you can't understand plain English, I can't help you.Libby in plain English you have given me your position which doesn't make any sense. On the one hand you have said that man is incapable of accepting Christ on his own--which is the same position that I hold. Yet you still maintain that man has free will. Don't you see the problem with your position?

alanmolstad

04-23-2014, 06:55 PM

http://www.whatchristianswanttoknow.com/does-god-predestine-people-to-hell-a-bible-study/

yes libby we do have free will.....and yet we rely on the father just as jesus did........

( just hang in there...you are doing fine)

Libby

04-23-2014, 07:43 PM

That's correct, Alan and thank you. :)

Billy, there is a big difference between not having the "ability" to come to Christ (as you believe) and not having the "knowledge" to come to Christ (before the Father draws us), which is what *I* believe. We have the ability, we just don't have the information or knowledge (scriptures, testimony, Holy Spirit, etc) necessary to make the choice. We are not so crippled by sin that we cannot see goodness and truth, when it is put before us.

God puts it before us and gives a little tug on our heart. Once we start moving in his direction (of our own free will), he will change our hearts completely (little by little)...IF we allow it. We have to choose him and then we must also make the decision to surrender to Him. Once surrendered..He does an amazing work in us.

Billyray

04-24-2014, 12:40 AM

We have the ability, we just don't have the information or knowledge (scriptures, testimony, Holy Spirit, etc) necessary to make the choice.

You said before that a person could not come to Christ unless drawn by the Father.

If everyone has the "ability" to come to Christ then can anyone come to Him without being drawn by the Father?

Libby

04-24-2014, 02:16 AM

We've gone over this quite enough. I have explained my position and thoughts more than adequately.

James Banta

04-24-2014, 08:11 AM

We've gone over this quite enough. I have explained my position and thoughts more than adequately.

The problem is that they are your position and thoughts that have no foundation in God's word.. IHS jim

alanmolstad

04-24-2014, 09:34 AM

The problem is that they are your position and thoughts that have no foundation in God's word.. IHS jimi think that some of the teachings of Calvinism have no foundation in God's word.

Calvinists fall back on "men's reasoning" to support some of their views because not all of their views are found in the bible.
The problem with the use of "men's reasoning' is that its flawed much of the time.

alanmolstad

04-24-2014, 09:42 AM

If He has always known (that is my position) why would it be wrong to destine all He knew would come to Him unto life and those He knew would reject Him to ****ation in the Lake of Fire?

there we have the cl***ic understanding of someone who believes god destines some to ****ation in hell....

James Banta

04-24-2014, 10:46 AM

i think that some of the teachings of Calvinism have no foundation in God's word.

Calvinists fall back on "men's reasoning" to support some of their views because not all of their views are found in the bible.
The problem with the use of "men's reasoning' is that its flawed much of the time.

Be fair tell me which ones.. I know you agree with some of the 5 points.. IHS jim

Libby

04-24-2014, 11:12 AM

alanmolstad

04-24-2014, 11:20 AM

This is not quite it, Alan. I don't know if Jim considers himself a Calvinist or not, but his position on this particular point is not Calvinist. Not unless he believes that God chose these people, arbitrarily, for no reason of which we are aware (which is actually the Calvinist position).

That God "knows" who will choose Him is an expression of God's omnipresent nature...and I do believe God is all knowing.

I'm not seeing Jim's posts, unless you quote them, so not sure what all he is saying....but, on this one point, he is correct (IMHO).

perhaps Jim has come up with his own private form of calvinism?....

if that is the case it's going to be hard for me to find other Walter Martin recordings that go over each point that Jim teaches as it's just something Jim pulled out of thin air....

I do know that at the 6:00 point in the recording Martin does attack the idea that "god predestines some to hell" and Martin does credit this teaching to Calvin....

Now the forum poster John seems to think differently about Jim's view of predestination...but time will tell if John wants to step in here with his views ?

Libby

04-24-2014, 11:26 AM

Yes, there is no predestining to hell. I think the whole issue of predestination is very misunderstood, especially by Calvinists.

alanmolstad

04-24-2014, 11:34 AM

Yes, there is no predestining to hell. I think the whole issue of predestination is very misunderstood, especially by Calvinists.

Here is what im seeing....

The Calvinist is stuck attempting to understand how Predestination works with free will?

So what some Calvinists do is come up with the answer -
They say...."God used His foreknowledge to learn who in the future believes in the son and who doesn't, and thus God knew who He should predestine to believe or not believe".....

The Calvinist will smile and say to everyone, "I solved the problem!"

Well guess what Calvinist?...you didn't!

You simply answered a unanswerable question with your own little dreamed-up answer that is not based on the Bible at all !

James Banta

04-24-2014, 12:21 PM

So very untrue. I hope those who come here to learn of what Mormons believe will actually go to the source (LDS.org or Mormon.org) and see what we believe.

Why don't you tell us.. Tell us that God created by just the power of His word even the elements.. After all the Bible teaches us that he created ALL things visible and invisible.. O2 is invisible but it does exists.. But I did go to LDS.com as you subjected. There the LDS church teaches that God didn't create it because it is an element.. "God didn't create the elements but organized them" (Smith, Teachings, 350–52, as quoted in the Doctrines of the Gospel Student Manual (https://www.lds.org/manual/doctrines-of-the-gospel-student-manual?lang=eng) Chapter 7: The Creation, https://www.lds.org/manual/doctrines-of-the-gospel-student-manual/chapter-7-the-creation?lang=eng)..

(English transliteration: Bereisheet bara Elohim et hashamayim ve'et ha'aretz). It can be translated into English in at least three ways:

As a statement that the cosmos had an absolute beginning (In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth).
As a statement describing the condition of the world when God began creating (When in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth, the earth was untamed and shapeless...).
Similar to the second, but taking the whole of verse 2 as background so that the main ***ertion is in verse 3. When in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth, the earth being untamed and shapeless, God said.. (Bandstra, Barry L. (1999). Reading the Old Testament: An Introduction to the Hebrew Bible (http://books.google.com.au/books?id=vRY9mTUZKJcC&printsec=frontcover&dq=Bandstra&hl=en&ei=oLjATpT7I6_BiQeNopCcBw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&sqi=2&ved=0CC8Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false). Wadsworth Publishing Company. p. 576.)

So an ***ertion that the elements were present can be understood in the p***age as much as ex nihilo.. Neither one has a corner on the market. But when understood by other scripture we can see the true meaning:

John 1:3
All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Col 1:16
For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him

I submit that the elements are things, Some are visible like Iron and Mercury. Other are invisible like Oxygen and Nitrogen. Never the less they are things and are therefore the creation of God (Jesus).. But you can keep believing men over the scripture just know that by denying that God created all thins that is just what you are doing.. IHS jim

James Banta

04-24-2014, 01:48 PM

I disagree that the beginning of the book of John undoes what Christ taught us directly. In fact, if you look at John, in light of what Christ directly, it makes it clear that Christ did not teach that "God enters His own creation in the person of Jesus." John speaks of the Godhead and how it works. John does not say that Christ is not the Son of God, nor undoes anything that Christ taught us of His relationship (and our relationship) to His Father.

So, I originally posted to this thread because of this comment

My point is---I do test the scriptures---I do read them, I do study them--and in the end, I do not see the Trinity concept. I look at history and the concept of the trinity, to me, is the creation of men. It is not found in the Bible--not at least, as explained by the Nicene creed.

But once again, this is why it is so important to have the witness of the Holy Ghost who teaches us and becomes a second witness to the Bible. This is why I have what I do in my signature.

The creeds have nothing to do with who God is. They are a restatement of the doctrines of God He provided for us in His word.. The Son is the Son because of the flesh and only because of the flesh.. In the OLD Testament God is just what He is Noe ONE LORD. Even though He is still three person Jesus still called Himself God just as He did in the NT, saying before Abraham was, "I AM" (YHWH).. IHS jim

James Banta

04-24-2014, 01:58 PM

Jesus Christ.

As I said, to me, this verse teaches us of the Godhead. It does not undo what we learn about God the Father from Christ Himself and the relationship Christ has with God the Father (being His Son.)

This verse teaches that Jesus has always been God, or at least as long as the Father has been God.. Is that LDS teaching or would it be more correct to say that Jesus was born into a preexistent world and grew in spirit and knowledge to the point he become a god? In which case John 1:1 doesn't fit into LDS teaching at all.. After all the verse teaches us that in the Beginning was the word and that He was with God and the Word was God.. Seems that the beginning was was before anything was created. In that beginning the creative process was started.. "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.. Before that there were no Heavens and no earth". If there were no heaven then there was no place for us to mature to a state where we had kept our 1st estate. Julie mormonism just doesn't fit into the scripture.. IHS jim

alanmolstad

04-24-2014, 02:42 PM

Be fair tell me which ones.. I know you agree with some of the 5 points.. IHS jim

well to start....the "T" is wrong.

Calvinists have informed me over and over that man is too far gone to ever turn to the lord and have faith without God first sanctifying that person, giving him the ability to have faith.

This is why some Calvinists go on and on asking the same types of questions (as our own Billy here asks on the forum) about man being able to turn to god and have faith without god first changing that person?

So basically the person is saved before they even have the ability to have faith in Christ.

this is totally wrong.

To see just how backwards it is just look at well known verse that tells us how we are saved...Ephesians 2:8
"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith"

faith comes when according to this verse?

It comes first!

.....thats the path salvation comes to us via....

We are not saved, then have faith
we have faith and then we get saved.

so right off the bat the "T" is wrong

Now there are a few other things I find flawed in the 5 points....but the real thing i might suggest at this time is you get your computer fixed!

or, if your computer is too old to sink money in it, just walk into Best Buy and pick up a cheap Kindle Fire.....less than $200 and you got all the internet power you need to watch and listen to music and videos.

You just turn it on and thats it...

James Banta

04-24-2014, 09:21 PM

[alanmolstad;155442]well to start....the "T" is wrong.

Calvinists have informed me over and over that man is too far gone to ever turn to the lord and have faith without God first sanctifying that person, giving him the ability to have faith.

This is why some Calvinists go on and on asking the same types of questions (as our own Billy here asks on the forum) about man being able to turn to god and have faith without god first changing that person?

So basically the person is saved before they even have the ability to have faith in Christ.

this is totally wrong.

To see just how backwards it is just look at well known verse that tells us how we are saved...Ephesians 2:8
"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith"

faith comes when according to this verse?

It comes first!

.....thats the path salvation comes to us via....

We are not saved, then have faith
we have faith and then we get saved.

so right off the bat the "T" is wrong

I understand your issue.. But there are pesty Biblical Statements that support The "T" Like:

John 6:44
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

I say that because God has always known all things, He has known about our sin from the beginning. Seeing it He know that such sin makes us totally depraved and lost. God's knowledge about us establishes our "T"..

Now there are a few other things I find flawed in the 5 points....but the real thing i might suggest at this time is you get your computer fixed!

or, if your computer is too old to sink money in it, just walk into Best Buy and pick up a cheap Kindle Fire.....less than $200 and you got all the internet power you need to watch and listen to music and videos.

You just turn it on and thats it...

I am not ready to absorb the cost of the repair, or the time that you aren't willing to take to make your points in going to the library and show you how Dr Martin's faith in the eternal Nature of God answers your problems with Calvinism.. IHS jim

James Banta

04-24-2014, 09:34 PM

god does not predestine people to hell.......

in other words God does not send anyone to hell.....

Why are people cast into the Lake of Fire? Because they believe God or it is because they deny Him.. Does God know who will Believe and who will deny even before they were born? Is there anything He hasn't always know about each and every one of us? Since that is quite impossible, I can say with authority that God is aware that many, MANY people will be cast into the Lake of Fire. That knowledge predestined them for ****ation the same as His knowledge of our faith predestines us for salvation. You can't have a predestination unto live without the same for death.. IHS jim

Billyray

04-24-2014, 10:36 PM

You said before that a person could not come to Christ unless drawn by the Father.

If everyone has the "ability" to come to Christ then can anyone come to Him without being drawn by the Father?

We've gone over this quite enough. I have explained my position and thoughts more than adequately.
So Libby have you made up your mind on this issue yet?

1. Man is incapable of coming to Christ unless drawn by the Father
2. Man is capable of coming to Christ at any time and does not need to drawn by the Father to do so.

Billyray

04-24-2014, 10:40 PM

Yes, there is no predestining to hell. I think the whole issue of predestination is very misunderstood, especially by Calvinists.
Sounds like you have all the answers in this area. Great. Let's start with this verse in Romans and perhaps you can tell me what it means.

Romans 8:30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

Billyray

04-24-2014, 10:44 PM

Not unless he believes that God chose these people, arbitrarily, for no reason of which we are aware (which is actually the Calvinist position).

Calvinist don't believe that God chooses people "arbitrarily". I thought you said that you knew this stuff?

Libby

04-25-2014, 12:53 AM

Calvinist don't believe that God chooses people "arbitrarily".

Then, please tell us why (in your opinion) God chooses some and not others. Why?

Libby

04-25-2014, 12:54 AM

Sounds like you have all the answers in this area. Great. Let's start with this verse in Romans and perhaps you can tell me what it means.

Romans 8:30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

It means exactly what it says.

Libby

04-25-2014, 12:56 AM

So Libby have you made up your mind on this issue yet?

1. Man is incapable of coming to Christ unless drawn by the Father
2. Man is capable of coming to Christ at any time and does not need to drawn by the Father to do so.

There is no conflict between God's drawing and man's free will, as I already explained. You are the one creating conflict between these two things, by seeing it through Calvinist eyes.

alanmolstad

04-25-2014, 02:57 AM

Why are people cast into the Lake of Fire? Because they believe God or it is because they deny Him.. Does God know who will Believe and who will deny even before they were born? Is there anything He hasn't always know about each and every one of us? Since that is quite impossible, I can say with authority that God is aware that many, MANY people will be cast into the Lake of Fire. That knowledge predestined them for ****ation the same as His knowledge of our faith predestines us for salvation. You can't have a predestination unto live without the same for death.. IHS jim

right there Jim.....the thinking of men dressed up in our logic to look like its in the bible....and then they woder why others dont bow down to it?

alanmolstad

04-25-2014, 02:59 AM

there is no conflict between god's drawing and man's free will, as i already explained. You are the one creating conflict between these two things, by seeing it through calvinist eyes.
amen!.....

alanmolstad

04-25-2014, 03:09 AM

libby.....inhave started a new topic on all the reasons Calvinism is wrong.

I will be going though the videos posted there and pointing out spots in the video that address the different and yet common question Calvinists always seem to have a problem understanding.

I would enjoy going over the things with you so that we both find some better tools to help Calvinists out of the hole they have fell/jumped in.

alanmolstad

04-25-2014, 04:20 AM

Then, please tell us why (in your opinion) God chooses some and not others. Why?

if anyone ever tells you that they know such things about God?....... walk away ....

They are just making stuff up on their own.

disciple

04-25-2014, 05:18 AM

if anyone ever tells you that they know such things about God?....... walk away ....

They are just making stuff up on their own.

Just a thought to add to the discussion. ***uming that God has the right and power to call whom he pleases effectually to faith, how can it be consistent for God to p*** over people and leave them in their sin and condemnation when Ezekiel 18:32 says, "For I have no pleasure in the death of any one, says the Lord God, so turn and live"? If God has no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but, in fact, Jesus weeps over the unbelief of Jerusalem (Matthew 23:37; Luke 13:34; 19:41–42), then why does he not effectually call them all? Or, turning it around, if he weeps over their unbelief, can we really believe that he has himself made the choice ahead of time who will believe and who will not? What do you think?

Billyray

04-25-2014, 08:26 AM

There is no conflict between God's drawing and man's free will, as I already explained. .

1. Man is incapable of coming to Christ unless drawn by the Father
2. Man is capable of coming to Christ at any time and does not need to drawn by the Father to do so.

So which one of the above do you believe?

Billyray

04-25-2014, 08:30 AM

It means exactly what it says.
Romans 8:30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

Which is what exactly?

Billyray

04-25-2014, 08:34 AM

Then, please tell us why (in your opinion) God chooses some and not others. Why?
For God's own good will and pleasure.

disciple

04-25-2014, 09:15 AM

Romans 8:30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

Which is what exactly?

Sorry if I'm ****ing in but verse 29 tells us that those He foreknew (knew beforehand would answer His call) those he also predestined. No one is predestined to hell but those who respond to God's call with faith and trust are predestined to salvation.

"For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren."

Libby

04-25-2014, 11:19 AM

Libby

04-25-2014, 11:24 AM

For God's own good will and pleasure.

Seems to me that you're talking about works and God working in us, if you are referring to this verse in Ephesians.

"For it is God which works in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure."

Libby

04-25-2014, 11:29 AM

Just a thought to add to the discussion. ***uming that God has the right and power to call whom he pleases effectually to faith, how can it be consistent for God to p*** over people and leave them in their sin and condemnation when Ezekiel 18:32 says, "For I have no pleasure in the death of any one, says the Lord God, so turn and live"? If God has no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but, in fact, Jesus weeps over the unbelief of Jerusalem (Matthew 23:37; Luke 13:34; 19:41–42), then why does he not effectually call them all? Or, turning it around, if he weeps over their unbelief, can we really believe that he has himself made the choice ahead of time who will believe and who will not? What do you think?

Exactly, disciple. Why would Jesus have so much grief over unbelievers, if he, himself were the cause of it?

Thank you so much, for your input. Much appreciated.

Billyray

04-25-2014, 12:04 PM

Yes, thanks for pointing that out, disciple.
Romans 8:30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

I see you are not going to tell me what this verse says so let's break it down in parts.

"those whom he predestined he also called"

Who were called?

RealFakeHair

04-25-2014, 12:13 PM

Romans 8:30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

I see you are not going to tell me what this verse says so let's break it down in parts.

"those whom he predestined he also called"

Who were called?

Many are called, few are chosen. I hear you callin, but I am busy right now. Now is the time said, Jesus.

Billyray

04-25-2014, 12:13 PM

Billyray

04-25-2014, 12:18 PM

Seems to me that you're talking about works and God working in us, if you are referring to this verse in Ephesians.

"For it is God which works in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure."
This is an excellent topic to discuss but we have to take it step by step in order to understand each other's position. Let's start with the following.

God has given us commandments to follow and we all have a choice to obey or disobey His commandments. Agree or disagree?

disciple

04-25-2014, 12:19 PM

So would you agree that a specific group of people ("those") are predestined to be saved prior to "those" people are even born?

I would agree that God is Omniscient and can use that foreknowledge any way He wants.

Billyray

04-25-2014, 02:18 PM

I would agree that God is Omniscient and can use that foreknowledge any way He wants.
But that is not what I asked you.

Would you agree that a specific group of people ("those") are predestined to be saved prior to "those" people are even born?

Billyray

04-25-2014, 02:22 PM

I would agree that God is Omniscient and can use that foreknowledge any way He wants.
Do you believe that God knows ALL things (every single event that you will ever do during your lifetime) OR do you believe that HE predicts what you will do based on intelligent guessing?

Libby

04-25-2014, 03:32 PM

I have no issue with God knowing everything, from beginning to end. He is omniscient and knows all.

My main issue is with the "T" in Tulip, which is total depravity. The idea that man cannot, of his own volition, turn to God.

God's "drawing" has nothing to do with man's "ability" or free will. God draws all of us, and we all have the opportunity to turn to Him, at some point, even if it is not in full understanding of Him or Jesus Christ. If God didn't want us all, why would He say, he does? I know Calvinist's dance all around the verses that say "all" and claim it doesn't really mean all. I think that's wrong.

Billyray

04-25-2014, 03:56 PM

God's "drawing" has nothing to do with man's "ability" or free will.
Then you must also believe that anyone can come to Christ even before being drawn by the Father.

Billyray

04-25-2014, 04:04 PM

God draws all of us, and we all have the opportunity to turn to Him, at some point, even if it is not in full understanding of Him or Jesus Christ.
ALL are drawn to Christ? Is that what you are saying or do you mean something else by your statement above?

alanmolstad

04-25-2014, 04:35 PM

later tonight i hope to find a way to fix my laptop so i dont have to post on my phone.....hang in there Libby....LOL

Billyray

04-25-2014, 05:56 PM

Sorry if I'm ****ing in but verse 29 tells us that those He foreknew (knew beforehand would answer His call) those he also predestined. No one is predestined to hell but those who respond to God's call with faith and trust are predestined to salvation.

"For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren."
Hopefully my follow up question in a prior post got you to think about your position and realize that this would necessitate that there is a fixed group of people who will be saved and a fixed group of people who will not be saved--prior to any of these people ever being born--and that there is nothing you can do to change this fact. Here is a segment from Wayne Grudem that discusses this very issue.

Wayne Grudem--Systematic Theology by Wayne Grudem, pp. 674-79

d. Predestination Based on Foreknowledge Still Does Not Give People Free Choice:

The idea that God's predestination of some to believe is based on foreknowledge of their faith encounters still another problems: upon reflection, this system turns out to give no real freedom to man either. For if God can look into the future and see that person A will come to faith in Christ, and that person B will not come to faith in Christ, then those facts are already fixed, they are already determined. If we ***ume that God's knowledge of the future is true (which it must be), then it is absolutely certain that person A will believe and person B will not. There is no way that their lives could turn out any differently than this. Therefore it is fair to say that their destinies are still determined, for they could not be otherwise. But by what are these destinies determined? If they are determined by God himself, then we no longer have election based ultimately on foreknowledge of faith, but rather on God's sovereign will. But if these destinies are not determined by God, then who or what determines them? Certainly no Christian would say that there is some powerful being other than God controlling people's destinies. Therefore it seems that the only other possible solution is to say they are determined by some impersonal force, some kind of fate, operative in the universe, making things turn out as they do. But what kind of benefit is this? We have then sacrificed election in love by a personal God for a kind of determinism by an impersonal force and God is no longer to be given the ultimate credit for our salvation.

http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/misunderstandings.html