A "what if" question for critics.

[Sir]

When speaking about the Book of Mormon, some critics wonder why the golden plates, why they were taken, why we can't see them, etc. Libby has suggested that were the golden plates still around and people were able to see them, that would at least give her a reason to look into the LDS faith's claims closer, but she admits that it would not convince her to align with that faith as there are other issues she has about Mormonism.

So here is the question for non-LDS:

If you were able to see the golden plates, and you were ***ured they were authentic and that they were what they are purported to be, what are the other issues that you have with Mormonism that would keep you from accepting its message?

[Libby]

There is only One God.

"For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is no one like Me" (Isaiah 46:9)

[Sir]

There is only One God.

"For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is no one like Me" (Isaiah 46:9)

***uming the BoM is what it says it is, and understanding that LDS can reconcile that Isaiah verse quite easily and harmoniously with the BoM and LDS doctrine, what other reason would you give to not be aligned with the LDS faith?

[Libby]

Okay, another Bible verse for you (and this is an important theme that is repeated many, many times throughout scripture)..

8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. (Ephesians 2)

[nrajeff]

Okay, another Bible verse for you (and this is an important theme that is repeated many, many times throughout scripture)..
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. (Ephesians 2)

---But seeing as how the Bible ALSO includes the Book of James--and you believe that book to be just as inspired as the Epistle to the Ephesians--and seeing as how the Book of Mormon's "It is by grace that we are saved after all we can do" agrees with James, how can you use Ephesians as a reason to reject the BOM without also rejecting James?

I think you'd need to come up with a less...inconsistent reason for remaining unconvinced that LDSism is what it claims to be.

[akaSeerone]

If you were able to see the golden plates, and you were ***ured they were authentic and that they were what they are purported to be, what are the other issues that you have with Mormonism that would keep you from accepting its message?
Let's start from the beginning of the BOM........."another testament of Jesus Christ.....That is a Biblical impossibility for several reasons, so anyone with any common Biblical sense knows that what is written inside is not inspired by God and has to be false/a lie.

And a short reading of the BOM bears that out.

Andy

[James Banta]

When speaking about the Book of Mormon, some critics wonder why the golden plates, why they were taken, why we can't see them, etc. Libby has suggested that were the golden plates still around and people were able to see them, that would at least give her a reason to look into the LDS faith's claims closer, but she admits that it would not convince her to align with that faith as there are other issues she has about Mormonism.

So here is the question for non-LDS:

If you were able to see the golden plates, and you were ***ured they were authentic and that they were what they are purported to be, what are the other issues that you have with Mormonism that would keep you from accepting its message?

If they were here and were authenticated as the real deal and could be translated into a message that could be seen as a close translation for that given by Smith ... I WOULD BE FIRST IN LINE.. But Smith couldn't do that with the BofA why would I hold faith that he would do so with the Gold plates.. Even the "inspired" version of the Bible has no support in the m****cripts we have in the original language.. Time after time his work as seen to be more and more nothing but the imaginations of his own heart.. That is very clear in the BofM.. Lehi's dream is a prime example of that accusation. IHS jim

[James Banta]

---But seeing as how the Bible ALSO includes the Book of James--and you believe that book to be just as inspired as the Epistle to the Ephesians--and seeing as how the Book of Mormon's "It is by grace that we are saved after all we can do" agrees with James, how can you use Ephesians as a reason to reject the BOM without also rejecting James?

I think you'd need to come up with a less...inconsistent reason for remaining unconvinced that LDSism is what it claims to be.

You can't show the bible to be God's word by saying that it contradicts.. James and Paul are teaching the same thing.. Paul in Eph 2:10 that after we are saved true faith works"

Eph 2:10
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
And James saying that He can only see true faith in the works of the believer is complete unison in teaching:

James 2:18
Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
How a church that denies that God is One, but teaches that there are many God's and three for this world can use James as authority is beyond ridiculous. James clearly teaches that God is One and not many..

James 2:19
Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
bring your doctrine of God into the truth James taught and we will again talk about His Faith and works discussion.. IHS jim

[akaSeerone]

Andy, always with the label, good move dude.
I see you can't prove it either....but then we already know you won't even try because Mormonism has taken James out of context and that just proves how Biblically illiterate Mormon apologist are.

Andy

[theway]

Let's start from the beginning of the BOM........."another testament of Jesus Christ.....That is a Biblical impossibility for several reasons,
Andy
Really!
How about just giving one reason?

[Sir]

If they were here and were authenticated as the real deal and could be translated into a message that could be seen as a close translation for that given by Smith ... I WOULD BE FIRST IN LINE.. But Smith couldn't do that with the BofA why would I hold faith that he would do so with the Gold plates.. Even the "inspired" version of the Bible has no support in the m****cripts we have in the original language.. Time after time his work as seen to be more and more nothing but the imaginations of his own heart.. That is very clear in the BofM.. Lehi's dream is a prime example of that accusation. IHS jim

So for you, there is nothing else that keeps you from aligning with the LDS church but your belief that the Book of Mormon isn't what it purports to be. Everything else is okay. Is this your position?

[Sir]

Let's start from the beginning of the BOM........."another testament of Jesus Christ.....That is a Biblical impossibility for several reasons, so anyone with any common Biblical sense knows that what is written inside is not inspired by God and has to be false/a lie.

And a short reading of the BOM bears that out.

Andy

I second theway's request for an example of your charge. Saying that it is a 'biblical impossibility' to be another testament of Jesus Chirst is a pretty definitive charge; leaving no room for error. Please explain how this is impossible. Also, please give an example from the short reading of the BoM that you claim makes your case.

[nrajeff]

I second theway's request for an example of your charge. Saying that it is a 'biblical impossibility' to be another testament of Jesus Chirst is a pretty definitive charge; leaving no room for error. Please explain how this is impossible. Also, please give an example from the short reading of the BoM that you claim makes your case.

---I would enjoy reading that too, so go for it Andy! You can do it....right?

[Libby]

---But seeing as how the Bible ALSO includes the Book of James--and you believe that book to be just as inspired as the Epistle to the Ephesians--and seeing as how the Book of Mormon's "It is by grace that we are saved after all we can do" agrees with James, how can you use Ephesians as a reason to reject the BOM without also rejecting James?

I think you'd need to come up with a less...inconsistent reason for remaining unconvinced that LDSism is what it claims to be.

The Book of Mormon is not in line with the Book of James. James tells us, just as the rest of the Bible that faith is the key to salvation. The Book of Mormon tells us that salvation comes only through doing all we can do, then Jesus will do the rest. Those are two different messages, IMO.

[stemelbow]

The Book of Mormon is not in line with the Book of James. James tells us, just as the rest of the Bible that faith is the key to salvation. The Book of Mormon tells us that salvation comes only through doing all we can do, then Jesus will do the rest. Those are two different messages, IMO.

you got the BoM message wrong, but I'm more intrigued by your claim of james giving the key to salvation. Where does he say as much?

love,
stem

[Libby]

you got the BoM message wrong, but I'm more intrigued by your claim of james giving the key to salvation. Where does he say as much?

love,
stem

I don't think I got the Book of Mormon message wrong.

"We know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do." -2 Nephi 25:23.

As for James, the theme is still faith. It is active or saving faith...faith that produces works....not dead faith that has no fruit. But, it is still by grace through faith that we are saved.

"You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works, and the scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness"

[Billyray]

understanding that LDS can reconcile that Isaiah verse quite easily and harmoniously with the BoM and LDS doctrine

Can I hear your explanation?

[Billyray]

"It is by grace that we are saved after all we can do" agrees with James, how can you use Ephesians as a reason to reject the BOM without also rejecting James?


Can you explain that verse for us Jeff so we can better understand it?

[Sir]

Can I hear your explanation?

At this point I would prefer to see your response to the OP.

[Billyray]

At this point I would prefer to see your response to the OP.

And I would prefer to see your response to my question that you said would be so easy to explain away.

[B2M5L2]

When speaking about the Book of Mormon, some critics wonder why the golden plates, why they were taken, why we can't see them, etc. Libby has suggested that were the golden plates still around and people were able to see them, that would at least give her a reason to look into the LDS faith's claims closer, but she admits that it would not convince her to align with that faith as there are other issues she has about Mormonism.

So here is the question for non-LDS:

If you were able to see the golden plates, and you were ***ured they were authentic and that they were what they are purported to be, what are the other issues that you have with Mormonism that would keep you from accepting its message?

How about, its total lack of conforming to biblical truth?

[Richard]

How about, its total lack of conforming to biblical truth?

So then why complain about not having the gold plates, you would still find issue with them, even if that solved one of the claims by Anti's that the plates could not have ever existed, you know things like "reformed egyptian writing",
proof that writing were preserved on metal plates, the weight of the plates, etc, etc.

At least some of the criticisms would be proved or at least discounted and your talking points would have to adjust to something else if proven wrong.
:D RJ.

[James Banta]

So for you, there is nothing else that keeps you from aligning with the LDS church but your belief that the Book of Mormon isn't what it purports to be. Everything else is okay. Is this your position?

No because Smith lied about the BofM he lied about many others things as well.. Here is an example of his lies from the History of the Church Vol 6:

What a thing it is for a man to be accused of committing adultery, and having seven wives, when I can only find one.
Is that speaking in the name of God? He was speaking to the Church over the pulpit when he gave those remarks. How can we trust a spiritual leader when he lies so easily about his own actions in his life?

Sorry but one realization of Smith lying has brought everything else he taught into question. He has proven himself time and again to be a false prophet and a false teacher. Look at D&C 87 and tell me that the Civil War was the beginning of all other Wars.. Tell me that England got involved and called on other nations until the whole world was involved in a war that started in South Carolina.. It was a false prophecy.. Smith got it all wrong.. Remember what Sir Winston Churchill said about fighting WW2? He said "Give us the tools and we will finish the ***".. That doesn't sound like England was calling the US into the war.. Japan did that om Dec 7 1941, not England.. And that great war had nothing to do with the US Civil war.. Smith prophecy was FALSE, he stand condemned by the doctrine Moses was given to identify a true prophet given in:

Deut 18:20-22
But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die.
And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the LORD hath not spoken?
When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to p***, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.

There are others, in fact the only one he came close to being right about is the prophecy about his death.. Nothing else when looked at in the light it was given was true prophecy.. Sorry but Smith did it to himself. If anyone would look at his works with open eyes they would see his fraud and his lies.. I will pray that your eyes open to truth.. IHS jim

[B2M5L2]

So then why complain about not having the gold plates, you would still find issue with them, even if that solved one of the claims by Anti's that the plates could not have ever existed, you know things like "reformed egyptian writing",
proof that writing were preserved on metal plates, the weight of the plates, etc, etc.

Where have I ever complained about not having gold plates? I simply answered Sir's question.


At least some of the criticisms would be proved or at least discounted and your talking points would have to adjust to something else if proven wrong.
:D RJ.


And yet, Chuck, there are no gold plates, and the criticisms remain legitimate.

[nrajeff]

Can you explain that verse for us Jeff so we can better understand it?
---So you are admitting that you don't have a good understanding of the verse? I thought you were, for years, a TBM RM Eagle Scout. And yet you think that my understanding of the verse is superior to yours.

[nrajeff]

So then why complain about not having the gold plates, you would still find issue with them, even if that solved one of the claims by Anti's that the plates could not have ever existed, you know things like "reformed egyptian writing",
proof that writing were preserved on metal plates, the weight of the plates, etc, etc.

At least some of the criticisms would be proved or at least discounted and your talking points would have to adjust to something else if proven wrong.
:D RJ.



--Yes, that is a very logical conclusion. It exposes the disingenuousness of this particular attack on LDS doctrine.

"If you would just show us the plates, then we would believe!"

If they were shown the plates, they would renege on their promise. Israelites saw the Red Sea parted, and that didn't turn them into TBJs. You can almost bet that whenever an invested skeptic says "Just show me ____ and I will believe," he is not gonna be telling the truth.

[B2M5L2]

--Yes, that is a very logical conclusion. It exposes the disingenuousness of this particular attack on LDS doctrine.

"If you would just show us the plates, then we would believe!"

Well, if your confession is that Mormons are fideists, then why are you and Chuck here contradicting your fideism by issuing ambiguous evidence to make your case? And if you're not fideists, but quasi-evidentialists, then what presupposition drives your evidentialism to conclude what you do about the Book of Mormon?


If they were shown the plates, they would renege on their promise. Israelites saw the Red Sea parted, and that didn't turn them into TBJs. You can almost bet that whenever an invested skeptic says "Just show me ____ and I will believe," he is not gonna be telling the truth.

You're right. For the righteous shall live by faith, but that faith is predicated on an object in real, time-space history; not upon something as convoluted as an inductive argument which leads back to an exalted man ruling from a planet orbiting Kolob.

[Richard]

Where have I ever complained about not having gold plates? I simply answered Sir's question.



And yet, Chuck, there are no gold plates, and the criticisms remain legitimate.

And again you didn't address the question, interesting.


If you were able to see the golden plates, and you were ***ured they were authentic and that they were what they are purported to be, what are the other issues that you have with Mormonism that would keep you from accepting its message?

[Richard]

--Yes, that is a very logical conclusion. It exposes the disingenuousness of this particular attack on LDS doctrine.

"If you would just show us the plates, then we would believe!"

If they were shown the plates, they would renege on their promise. Israelites saw the Red Sea parted, and that didn't turn them into TBJs. You can almost bet that whenever an invested skeptic says "Just show me ____ and I will believe," he is not gonna be telling the truth.

Jeff, can you imagine all the reprinting they would have to come up with, all those anti books would be waste paper as they hurriedly wrote new talking points and discarded the old ones, humorous.

Richard.

[B2M5L2]

And again you didn't address the question, interesting.

What was I supposed to address, Chuck, when all you did was make another empty accusation?

[nrajeff]

Jeff, can you imagine all the reprinting they would have to come up with, all those anti books would be waste paper as they hurriedly wrote new talking points and discarded the old ones, humorous. Richard.

---If they thought they could still make money from sales of the new, improved "Why the Book of Mormon is STILL wrong" books and DVDs, I reckon they would.

[B2M5L2]

---If they thought they could still make money from sales of the new, improved "Why the Book of Mormon is STILL wrong" books and DVDs, I reckon they would.

Hey guys, tell me something. Is this what happens when the so-called "what if" questions have been answered? The Mormons are left grumbling with each other over stuff that has nothing to do with the original scheme?

[nrajeff]

Hey guys, tell me something. Is this what happens when the so-called "what if" questions have been answered? The Mormons are left grumbling with each other over stuff that has nothing to do with the original scheme?

---So it's not OK to DISCUSS the answers that people gave? Says who?

Brian, I do appreciate your post where you admitted that I was right when I said:

If they were shown the plates, they would renege on their promise.

and you replied:


You're right.

[Sir]

And I would prefer to see your response to my question that you said would be so easy to explain away.

I know you would. But I think in reading your posts you are one who usually likes to have people answery our questions before you attempt to answer theirs. It's seems common courtesy to address my question that was posed in the OP first before going down your own trail of questions.

[Billyray]

If you were able to see the golden plates, and you were ***ured they were authentic and that they were what they are purported to be, what are the other issues that you have with Mormonism that would keep you from accepting its message?

Moroni 10:3-5 false promise. I took the LDS god up on his offer and took this challenge and did NOT receive an answer as promised.

[Billyray]

understanding that LDS can reconcile that Isaiah verse quite easily and harmoniously with the BoM and LDS doctrine

Can I hear your explanation?

[Sir]

Moroni 10:3-5 false promise. I took the LDS god up on his offer and took this challenge and did NOT receive an answer as promised.

But if the BoM is what it purports to be, the writings contained therein would also be correct. Your charge that the Moroni promise if false is based on your own personal experience. Many LDS will counter that by claiming it is true based on their personal experience.

So for you, even if the BoM were authentic and proved to be what it claims to be, you would reject the LDS church because of the negative experience you believe to have had in praying for a confirming witness.

[Sir]

Can I hear your explanation?

I like Stephen Gibson's better. No sense in trying to reinvent the wheel. :)

http://www.lightplanet.com/response/answers/gods.htm

[Billyray]

Your charge that the Moroni promise if false is based on your own personal experience. Many LDS will counter that by claiming it is true based on their personal experience.


Moroni 10
3 Behold, I would exhort you that when ye shall read these things, if it be wisdom in God that ye should read them, that ye would remember how merciful the Lord hath been unto the children of men, from the creation of Adam even down until the time that ye shall receive these things, and ponder it in your hearts.
4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.
5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.

The promise is that if you follow the steps above "he will manifest the truth of it unto you". He did NOT manifest the truth of it unto me. Therefore the promise failed. As far as others I can't speak for them.

[Sir]

Moroni 10
3 Behold, I would exhort you that when ye shall read these things, if it be wisdom in God that ye should read them, that ye would remember how merciful the Lord hath been unto the children of men, from the creation of Adam even down until the time that ye shall receive these things, and ponder it in your hearts.
4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.
5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.

The promise is that if you follow the steps above "he will manifest the truth of it unto you". He did NOT manifest the truth of it unto me. Therefore the promise failed. As far as others I can't speak for them.

That's what I said. For you it failed, for others (like me) it did not.

[Billyray]

That's what I said. For you it failed, for others (like me) it did not.

How do you explain that?

[B2M5L2]

---So it's not OK to DISCUSS the answers that people gave? Says who?

It didn't look like you were discussing answers, but trying to belittle those who've given answers that you didn't like.


Brian, I do appreciate your post where you admitted that I was right when I said:

If they were shown the plates, they would renege on their promise.

and you replied:


You're right.

I'm happy for whatever you've recollected.

[Sir]

How do you explain that?

Easy. I'm right and you are wrong. :p

[Libby]

I like Stephen Gibson's better. No sense in trying to reinvent the wheel. :)

http://www.lightplanet.com/response/answers/gods.htm

From the article:


In that Godhead, as Jesus clearly and repeatedly taught, God the Father hold ultimate power and control of earthly events.

So is the LDS Godhead only gods over this planet and not the entire universe (or over ALL That IS), as the Biblical God states?

[Sir]

From the article:



So is the LDS Godhead only gods over this planet and not the entire universe (or over ALL That IS), as the Biblical God states?

What do you believe, as a former LDS?

[Libby]

What do you believe, as a former LDS?

I don't think I had a firmly held belief about it, but I did think that God's "realm" was more than just this planet.

So, what do you believe?

[Billyray]

Easy. I'm right and you are wrong.

Why do you think that the LDS god failed to keep his promise in my case?

[Sir]

Why do you think that the LDS god failed to keep his promise in my case?

..........


He did NOT manifest the truth of it unto me. Therefore the promise failed. As far as others I can't speak for them.

[Billyray]

..........

Was that suppose to be an answer to my question?

[Sir]

Was that suppose to be an answer to my question?

Yes, but I see that you need further explanation. Just as you said you cannot comment on anyone's experiences but your own, I used that answer to your question. You want me to explain why the Moroni promise failed in your life. I can't do that because I'm not you. I'm positive that anything I said about it from an outsiders point of view would simply be cast off as absurd and with the disclaimer that since I'm not you or that I wasn't there I really can't know; which is quite true.

[James Banta]

Yes, but I see that you need further explanation. Just as you said you cannot comment on anyone's experiences but your own, I used that answer to your question. You want me to explain why the Moroni promise failed in your life. I can't do that because I'm not you. I'm positive that anything I said about it from an outsiders point of view would simply be cast off as absurd and with the disclaimer that since I'm not you or that I wasn't there I really can't know; which is quite true.

All Moroni's promise calls for is a "sincere heart, real intent, and holding faith in Christ". Here is Bill
with all that even to the point of going on a mission and yet God doesn't see fit to give him a witness of the book's truth that is promised to such as he? I know the feeling.. That same question brought me to my branch President's office and further all the way to Elder McConkie's office.. All for not.. I wanted that witness as much as any man and it was denied me as it was Bill.. Know why? Because it's not real it is a false promise!!! IHS jim

[Sir]

All Moroni's promise calls for is a "sincere heart, real intent, and holding faith in Christ". Here is Bill
with all that even to the point of going on a mission and yet God doesn't see fit to give him a witness of the book's truth that is promised to such as he? I know the feeling.. That same question brought me to my branch President's office and further all the way to Elder McConkie's office.. All for not.. I wanted that witness as much as any man and it was denied me as it was Bill.. Know why? Because it's not real it is a false promise!!! IHS jim

Your response is not unexpected considering were you to believe the promise was fulfilled you would not be in the position you are in now. Notice how you are claiming Billyray had everything needed but it was God that failed him? I think that is the reason neither billy nor myself can honestly argue against the experiences of others since we really, if we are honest with ourselves, do not know the reality of the way things are in the other person's life.

But the promise was fulfilled for me. Know why? Because it is a real and true promise. (See what I did there?)

[Billyray]

Yes, but I see that you need further explanation. Just as you said you cannot comment on anyone's experiences but your own, I used that answer to your question. You want me to explain why the Moroni promise failed in your life. I can't do that because I'm not you. I'm positive that anything I said about it from an outsiders point of view would simply be cast off as absurd and with the disclaimer that since I'm not you or that I wasn't there I really can't know; which is quite true.
Moroni 10
3 Behold, I would exhort you that when ye shall read these things, if it be wisdom in God that ye should read them, that ye would remember how merciful the Lord hath been unto the children of men, from the creation of Adam even down until the time that ye shall receive these things, and ponder it in your hearts.
4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.
5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.


Can you give me some possibilities of why I did not receive an answer based on the promise above?

[Libby]

I don't think I had a firmly held belief about it, but I did think that God's "realm" was more than just this planet.

So, what do you believe?

Bumping this for Sir.

[Sir]

Bumping this for Sir.

Yes, God's realm is more than just planet earth. Read in the Pearl of Great Price for more details.

[Libby]

Yes, God's realm is more than just planet earth. Read in the Pearl of Great Price for more details.

Can you give me something a little more specific?

[Sir]

Moroni 10
3 Behold, I would exhort you that when ye shall read these things, if it be wisdom in God that ye should read them, that ye would remember how merciful the Lord hath been unto the children of men, from the creation of Adam even down until the time that ye shall receive these things, and ponder it in your hearts.
4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.
5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.


Can you give me some possibilities of why I did not receive an answer based on the promise above?

Sure.

1) You did receive answers, but in the loss of your testimony you have also lost that ***urance and are now left to deny what you once had.

2) You did not have the sincerity you thought you had.

3) You received an answer but you did not recognize it as the answer.

4) You expected an answer on your timeline instead of waiting on God's timeline.

Now will you tall me why it is that I did receive a fulfillment of the promise?

[James Banta]

Your response is not unexpected considering were you to believe the promise was fulfilled you would not be in the position you are in now. Notice how you are claiming Billyray had everything needed but it was God that failed him? I think that is the reason neither billy nor myself can honestly argue against the experiences of others since we really, if we are honest with ourselves, do not know the reality of the way things are in the other person's life.

But the promise was fulfilled for me. Know why? Because it is a real and true promise. (See what I did there?)

If it was fulfilled for you and the god of mormonism is God, then the promise would be fulfilled for all who put the BofM to that test.. Jesus promises us that who ever believes in His would be given eternal life.. I have yet to see a person who has faith in the Jesus of the Bible tell me that they are unsure of their eternal destiny.. I have yet to meet a Mormon that is sure of salvation in God's best heaven.. A promise from God is imputable.. Either the promise in Moroni 10:4 is of God and available to all who meet the qualification or it's not a promise from God.. In this case it wasn't given as it was promised so it is NOT OF GOD!

You have now heard from two of us that read the BofM seriously, were solid members of the church
and really wanted the BofM to be what it says it is but when tested it failed.. Since those early days I have learned about many more problem than just a broken promise.. For-instance, The timing for the BofM is all wrong.. It couldn't have been completely translated until six months after it was published.. If you want to know more about that just ask.. IHS jim

[Billyray]

Sure.

1) You did receive answers, but in the loss of your testimony you have also lost that ***urance and are now left to deny what you once had.

2) You did not have the sincerity you thought you had.

3) You received an answer but you did not recognize it as the answer.

4) You expected an answer on your timeline instead of waiting on God's timeline.

Now will you tall me why it is that I did receive a fulfillment of the promise?
If I received an answer but did not know or perceive it as an answer, was that really an answer? Doesn't God know how strong the witness has to be for me to perceive that answer? I can tell you that I DID NOT receive an answer that was perceivable to me and God would now that.

As for your other point how long do you think that I have to wait for an answer? one day, one week, one year, 10 years, 50 years? I have had LDS tell me that I needed to wait 20 plus years for an answer? Is that reasonable?

[James Banta]

Sure.

1) You did receive answers, but in the loss of your testimony you have also lost that ***urance and are now left to deny what you once had.

2) You did not have the sincerity you thought you had.

3) You received an answer but you did not recognize it as the answer.

4) You expected an answer on your timeline instead of waiting on God's timeline.

Now will you tall me why it is that I did receive a fulfillment of the promise?

Elder McConkie told me the same thing at least about the time line..He could see how much I wanted it to be true and he told me that.. He said stay close to the church and it would come.. I followed his advice until the truth of Jesus came to me.. Then the error or mormonism and the reason the promise was denied was made evident.. IT IS NOT OF GOD.. IHS jim

[Sir]

If I received an answer but did not know or perceive it as an answer, was that really an answer? Doesn't God know how strong the witness has to be for me to perceive that answer? I can tell you that I DID NOT receive an answer that was perceivable to me and God would now that.

As for your other point how long do you think that I have to wait for an answer? one day, one week, one year, 10 years, 50 years? I have had LDS tell me that I needed to wait 20 plus years for an answer? Is that reasonable?

You are asking me to psycho-****yze your situation, which is silly since I do not know you or your personal situation. I think you understand that as you already explained that you would not comment on other people's personal experiences. I tried to not speak for your experience and yet you demanded I do it. Now that I have commented there really is nothing left for me to say on it.

[Sir]

If it was fulfilled for you and the god of mormonism is God, then the promise would be fulfilled for all who put the BofM to that test.. Jesus promises us that who ever believes in His would be given eternal life.. I have yet to see a person who has faith in the Jesus of the Bible tell me that they are unsure of their eternal destiny.. I have yet to meet a Mormon that is sure of salvation in God's best heaven.. A promise from God is imputable.. Either the promise in Moroni 10:4 is of God and available to all who meet the qualification or it's not a promise from God.. In this case it wasn't given as it was promised so it is NOT OF GOD!

You have now heard from two of us that read the BofM seriously, were solid members of the church
and really wanted the BofM to be what it says it is but when tested it failed.. Since those early days I have learned about many more problem than just a broken promise.. For-instance, The timing for the BofM is all wrong.. It couldn't have been completely translated until six months after it was published.. If you want to know more about that just ask.. IHS jim

Your experiences do not cons***ute what is truth or not. Just because you and billy believe the Moroni promise is false doesn't make it so. When you tall a person searching for the truth that they just need to ask God and he will show them where to find it, and they feel that they have asked but have not received an answer, you don't claim that God was simply lying or that his gospel is untrue, do you?

[Sir]

Can you give me something a little more specific?

I thought you were once LDS. A simple reading of Abraham should clarify it for you.

[Billyray]

You are asking me to psycho-****yze your situation, which is silly since I do not know you or your personal situation.

My Requirements
1. Read these things
2. Ponder it in your hearts
3. Ask with a sincere heart
4. With real intent
5. Having faith in Christ,

LDS god's promise
1. He will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.

I followed the above requirements to the letter but after doing my part the LDS god did not come through on his part and manifest the truth of it unto me. And IF I did receive this witness I certainly wouldn't be on these boards denying it.

[Sir]

My Requirements
1. Read these things
2. Ponder it in your hearts
3. Ask with a sincere heart
4. With real intent
5. Having faith in Christ,

LDS god's promise
1. He will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.

I followed the above requirements to the letter but after doing my part the LDS god did not come through on his part and manifest the truth of it unto me. And IF I did receive this witness I certainly wouldn't be on these boards denying it.

What would you say to your non-christian friend that you have shared the gospel with when he tells you that he doesn't feel like God is answering his prayers? Or what do you tell them when they question why "your God" allows people's lives to be ripped apart, or killed, etc.?

Again, your trying to discard the LDS beliefs simply because you feel your experience was an***hetical to what was promised in Moroni. And you simply do this based on your own experience without acknowledging there are many like myself who have had the opposite experience as you.

So you'll just have to come to your own conclusion of why you feel the way you do.

[Libby]

I thought you were once LDS. A simple reading of Abraham should clarify it for you.

I surely was, but it's been awhile. Plus, The Pearl of Great Price includes the Book of Moses, Book of Abraham and some of the JST Bible, so that's quite a lot to look through.

Why don't you just tell me in your own words.

[Billyray]

Again, your trying to discard the LDS beliefs simply because you feel your experience was an***hetical to what was promised in Moroni.

I agree with you that it casts doubt on Mormonism because the promise failed. If a person follows the promise as directed there is no reason that the person should not receive an answer to his prayer as promised.

[Sir]

I agree with you that it casts doubt on Mormonism because the promise failed. If a person follows the promise as directed there is no reason that the person should not receive an answer to his prayer as promised.

I didn't say it casts doubt on Mormonism, so you cannot logically agree with me on that.

Now that I answered your question, answer mine:

Explain why the promise worked for me and other faithful LDS members.

[Sir]

I surely was, but it's been awhile. Plus, The Pearl of Great Price includes the Book of Moses, Book of Abraham and some of the JST Bible, so that's quite a lot to look through.

Why don't you just tell me in your own words.

I just told you that reading Abraham should help clarify, so you don't need to look through the whole PoGP.

Scripture is much better (and more authoritative) than my own words.

[Billyray]

Explain why the promise worked for me and other faithful LDS members.

Why did it work for you? I don't know.

[Libby]

I just told you that reading Abraham should help clarify, so you don't need to look through the whole PoGP.

Scripture is much better (and more authoritative) than my own words.

Do you have a specific scripture reference? I'm not going to read the whole Book of Abraham (even though I realize it's only five chapters). I have given you specific scripture references for why I believe what I do.

[Sir]

Why did it work for you? I don't know.

That's not a very honest discussion, IMO. You asked repeatedly for an explanation from me even after I agreed with you that I don't know you or your experience. But I at least offered my reasons that it could be.

And now when you are asked to reciprocate the question you decline to offer your reasons.

Why do you demand LDS to ****yze your "failed" experience but you refuse to do the same when the tables are turned?

[Billyray]

That's not a very honest discussion, IMO. You asked repeatedly for an explanation from me even after I agreed with you that I don't know you or your experience. But I at least offered my reasons that it could be.


I thought that my answer was completely honest. If you tell me how God answered you prayer then I might be able to provide more insight.

[Sir]

Do you have a specific scripture reference? I'm not going to read the whole Book of Abraham (even though I realize it's only five chapters). I have given you specific scripture references for why I believe what I do.

You don't have to read it. I'm not forcing you to.

[Libby]

You don't have to read it. I'm not forcing you to.

I would like to read it. Why don't you want to give me a scripture reference? I don't think that's too much to ask.

[Sir]

I thought that my answer was completely honest. If you tell me how God answered you prayer then I might be able to provide more insight.

No, the answer isn't what I said wasn't honest. You said you will not speak to other people's experience, but then you demand that other people speak to your experience. I gave you my best guess as to why you didn't get an answer to your prayer as you claim. I'm simply asking you to give me your best guess as to why I did receive an answer to my prayer as I claim. I answered you with the same amount of knowledge that I have of you and that you have of me, but you don't want to answer me. So that's fine. That would seem to be the end of this discussion.

[Sir]

I would like to read it. Why don't you want to give me a scripture reference? I don't think that's too much to ask.

Just read Abraham. It's five chapters, like you said. Find the one that speaks of God's creations. I don't think that is too much to ask either.

[Billyray]

No, the answer isn't what I said wasn't honest. You said you will not speak to other people's experience, but then you demand that other people speak to your experience. I gave you my best guess as to why you didn't get an answer to your prayer as you claim. I'm simply asking you to give me your best guess as to why I did receive an answer to my prayer as I claim. I answered you with the same amount of knowledge that I have of you and that you have of me, but you don't want to answer me. So that's fine. That would seem to be the end of this discussion.

I have to have more information about the exact nature of your answer to be able to give you a decent answer. Please tell me how God answered your prayer?

[Sir]

I have to have more information about the exact nature of your answer to be able to give you a decent answer. Please tell me how God answered your prayer?

No you don't. I didn't have any added info from you when you expected an answer. But I am stepping away now anyway, so if you want to give it a shot I'd like to see it. If you are only going to wait for me to lead you along with more personal info I won't be doing that.

How about just answer generally.

Why do faithful LDS members claim that the promise worked for them?

[Billyray]

I didn't have any added info from you when you expected an answer.

No answer is no answer. I didn't receive anything that I perceived as a witness. I don't know what else to add to that. I followed the steps as outlined and should of received an answer if the promise is indeed true. But I didn't.



Why do faithful LDS members claim that the promise worked for them?
I can't give an insightful answer to your question unless I have more specific information. For example if you said that your answer to prayer was that you felt that it was right. Then I could address that specific claim. In this instance feeling that something is right is not specific for Mormonism. People in all religions feel that what they believe is right. Two mutually exclusive beliefs can't possibly be true. If truth is based solely on a feeling then everything is true.

[James Banta]

Your experiences do not cons***ute what is truth or not. Just because you and billy believe the Moroni promise is false doesn't make it so. When you tall a person searching for the truth that they just need to ask God and he will show them where to find it, and they feel that they have asked but have not received an answer, you don't claim that God was simply lying or that his gospel is untrue, do you?

There is no such promise in the Church.. The promises we have are received by faith in Jesus. Faith is believing that He is who He said He is and has done what He said He has done and will do all He said he will do whether you feel like He has or not.. Feelings are not a sign of Christian faith. James told us what those signs are that we can see them in ourselves and other may also see them in us:

Not to be a respecter of persons (James 2:3), but show love to the poor (James 2:6), understand your guilt before a Holy God (James 2:10), don't commit adultery, or kill (James 2:11), Show mercy to all, cloth the naked and feed the hungry (James 2:13,16)..
God never lied in this whole process. It was Smith who was the liar.. There were no plates hidden on the hillside. There was no angel to give a message of his people.. The work of Jesus was finished in the cross and so announced by Him. The Father, one with the Son, agreed that and the veil of the Temple was torn in half allowing all who will come access to God in His Glory.. IHS jim

[Sir]

There is no such promise in the Church.. The promises we have are received by faith in Jesus. Faith is believing that He is who He said He is and has done what He said He has done and will do all He said he will do whether you feel like He has or not.. Feelings are not a sign of Christian faith. James told us what those signs are that we can see them in ourselves and other may also see them in us:

Not to be a respecter of persons (James 2:3), but show love to the poor (James 2:6), understand your guilt before a Holy God (James 2:10), don't commit adultery, or kill (James 2:11), Show mercy to all, cloth the naked and feed the hungry (James 2:13,16)..
God never lied in this whole process. It was Smith who was the liar.. There were no plates hidden on the hillside. There was no angel to give a message of his people.. The work of Jesus was finished in the cross and so announced by Him. The Father, one with the Son, agreed that and the veil of the Temple was torn in half allowing all who will come access to God in His Glory.. IHS jim

There is no promise in the church that says ask and ye shall receive, seek and ye shall find, knock and it shall be opened to you?

I won't try and respond to the other tangential arguments that you made.

[James Banta]

There is no promise in the church that says ask and ye shall receive, seek and ye shall find, knock and it shall be opened to you?

I won't try and respond to the other tangential arguments that you made.

You didn't understand at all now did you? There are no conditions on that promise.. Can you see any.. Where does it say Be faithful and I will give you truth? Jesus is the truth you can only have that truth is you accept it.. will give you any more truth than He is anywhere in the scripture? It never says "If you will be faithful I will give you truth".. The Bible tells us that He was given to us and He is TRUTH!.. So ask for Him, Knock and He will open to you, look for Him, He is not hard to find.. Where are those conditions that Smith inserted into His promise.. And His promise is about a book; it isn't about Jesus at all.. The Bible is about finding Jesus. Ask for Him and he will come into you, Seek Him and He will be present with you, Knock and he will open the gates of heaven to you..

Do you still think these two promises are alike? They have nothing to do one with the other.. One shows is the way to God , forgiveness, and acceptance as His child.. The other is about a man's work.. Open your heart to the Jesus of the Bible and left Him in.. He who is the God that has been GOD from everlasting and will continue alone as God to everlasting.. When He comes into you it will change your heart and you mind.. IHS jim

[Billyray]

Bump for sir




I can't give an insightful answer to your question unless I have more specific information. For example if you said that your answer to prayer was that you felt that it was right. Then I could address that specific claim. In this instance feeling that something is right is not specific for Mormonism. People in all religions feel that what they believe is right. Two mutually exclusive beliefs can't possibly be true. If truth is based solely on a feeling then everything is true.

[alanmolstad]

I quote from the OP
"So here is the question for non-LDS:

If you were able to see the golden plates, and you were ***ured they were authentic and that they were what they are purported to be, what are the other issues that you have with Mormonism that would keep you from accepting its message?"



Here is my answer:

It does not matter.
it does not matter how much a person believes that the Golden Plates are real.
it does not matter if i received them myself, from an angel, with all the company of heaven singing "Holy Holy holy"

it does not matter if i looked up and saw God's hands lowering them down to be in person.

None of that matters.......if

If what is on the plates disagrees with the bible and with the christian faith as found in the bible.
If it does, then I would reject them and the god who gave them to me.

[Snow Patrol]

I quote from the OP
"So here is the question for non-LDS:

If you were able to see the golden plates, and you were ***ured they were authentic and that they were what they are purported to be, what are the other issues that you have with Mormonism that would keep you from accepting its message?"



Here is my answer:

It does not matter.
it does not matter how much a person believes that the Golden Plates are real.
it does not matter if i received them myself, from an angel, with all the company of heaven singing "Holy Holy holy"

it does not matter if i looked up and saw God's hands lowering them down to be in person.

None of that matters.......if

If what is on the plates disagrees with the bible and with the christian faith as found in the bible.
If it does, then I would reject them and the god who gave them to me.


That really says a lot. You are saying that you trust your own interpretation of scripture over God. In your quote, you don't say "I think I saw God's hand..." or " what appeared to be God's hand...". You don't qualify your statement, so you would turn God away because you trust your own knowledge over God's. Very interesting.

[alanmolstad]

"But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed."


So how would I put this verse into practice?....

The way I would is that if one day an angel from heaven should appear to me as I walked alone out in the woods, and gave me a book of teachings that the angel said were from God's own hand- I would put this book to the test of Scripture.

If the book agreed with the Scriptures?....I would thank the angel and bring this book to the church.

If the book disagreed with the scriptures?....I would draw my Springfield 1911 and shoot the angel down like a dog.



This should make my views on the issue abundantly clear...

[alanmolstad]

You don't qualify your statement,......

(I notice your post shows you have closely read my words, and this shows me much respect, and so I must thank you for such diligence)

Let me take this opportunity to make myself even more clear on this point that you bring up.


If I went out in the woods, and while there the Lord God Almighty appeared to me,....and with His own hands took a pen and wrote down a set of teachings that He then gave me and commanded me to "Bring to the church".....I would put the Lord's writings to the test of scripture.

If what the Lord has written is in agreement with what is already received in the Bible?...I would bow down to the lord and take His words to the Church.

If what the Lord has written disagrees with what is already received in the Bible?.....I would stomp on the Lord's neck and shoot Him in the head.

[Snow Patrol]

If I went out in the woods, and while there the Lord God Almighty appeared to me,....and with His own hands took a pen and wrote down a set of teachings that He then gave me and commanded me to "Bring to the church".....I would put the Lord's writings to the test of scripture.

If what the Lord has written is in agreement with what is already received in the Bible?...I would bow down to the lord and take His words to the Church.

If what the Lord has written disagrees with what is already received in the Bible?.....I would stomp on the Lord's neck and shoot Him in the head.


Again, that is very interesting comment. You are out walking and THE ACTUAL Lord God Almighty appears to you (not someone else but the actual Lord) and you would trust your own interpretation of the Bible over what the ACTUAL Lord told you is very telling. Very telling indeed.

[alanmolstad]

Again, that is very interesting comment. You are out walking and THE ACTUAL Lord God Almighty appears to you (not someone else but the actual Lord) and you would trust your own interpretation of the Bible over what the ACTUAL Lord told you is very telling. Very telling indeed.


You are not asking me to make it more clear right?....I mean I could try if you are asking, but I just re-read what I have already said on this issue and my point seems very clear to me...

My point in my many clear statements on this question is that Galatians 1:8 takes priority over ANY of my experiences....

ANY experience!......regardless of how absolutely sure I was that it was truly an angel sent from God that was standing in front of me....

This is because the warning of Paul is clear.

NO MATTER WHAT!......NO MATTER WHO APPEARS TO ME!.......
It does not matter, because everything I might experience still has to submit to Galatians 1:8.

Galatians 1:8 is the law that I keep....it takes priority over anyone and anything...any dream I have, any vision I have, any voice I hear, any message I see, and person I meet, any angel that visits, any god that appears...in other words, any experience I might have still has to submit to Galatians 1:8, or I will reject it.

[Snow Patrol]

You are not asking me to make it more clear right?....I mean I could try if you are asking, but I just re-read what I have already said on this issue and my point seems very clear to me...

My point in my many clear statements on this question is that Galatians 1:8 takes priority over ANY of my experiences....

ANY experience!......regardless of how absolutely sure I was that it was truly an angel sent from God that was standing in front of me....

This is because the warning of Paul is clear.

NO MATTER WHAT!......NO MATTER WHO APPEARS TO ME!.......
It does not matter, because everything I might experience still has to submit to Galatians 1:8.

Galatians 1:8 is the law that I keep....it takes priority over anyone and anything...any dream I have, any vision I have, any voice I hear, any message I see, and person I meet, any angel that visits, any god that appears...in other words, any experience I might have still has to submit to Galatians 1:8, or I will reject it.



But the ***umption that you are going on is that your interpretation of the gospel of what the apostles first presented is the one that they actually presented. Again, you are trusting that what you believe in is the actual gospel that was presented back then over the ACTUAL Lord presenting to what HE wants you to know.

[alanmolstad]

any experience.....must submit to the scriptures.

the moment that the bringer of a new message might try to wiggle off that hook I step on his neck at shoot him in the head.....angel or not...

[Snow Patrol]

any experience.....must submit to the scriptures.

the moment that the bringer of a new message might try to wiggle off that hook I step on his neck at shoot him in the head.....angel or not...

That is fine if you want to maintain that. You keep missing the emphasis I'm trying to make and that is you are trusting YOUR interpretation of what the gospel is OVER God himself telling you what the gospel is. In essence, you know more than God. Again, if you are comfortable maintaining that belief that is your perogative. I just happen to believe God knows more than me.

[Phoenix]

any experience.....must submit to the scriptures.

the moment that the bringer of a new message might try to wiggle off that hook I step on his neck at shoot him in the head.....angel or not...

So if you are a pre-tribber, and an angel shows up with the message that the rapture won't occur until after the tribulation, you will have some options to choose from:

1. Accept that your understanding of what the Bible says about the timing of those events was wrong.
2. Stubbornly, and pridefully, cling to your belief that your interpretation of those Bible p***ages cannot be wrong, no matter what, so you shoot the angel in the head.

What if Saul of Tarsus had clung to his belief that his animosity toward Christians was founded in his infallible, inerrant understanding of the Tanakh? What if Saul's motto had been "I don't care if Jesus Himself shows up and tells me that I was wrong about what the scriptures say, I'm right and anyone who comes to tell me I'm wrong, I'm a shoot Him in the head" ?

[James Banta]

So if you are a pre-tribber, and an angel shows up with the message that the rapture won't occur until after the tribulation, you will have some options to choose from:

1. Accept that your understanding of what the Bible says about the timing of those events was wrong.
2. Stubbornly, and pridefully, cling to your belief that your interpretation of those Bible p***ages cannot be wrong, no matter what, so you shoot the angel in the head.

What if Saul of Tarsus had clung to his belief that his animosity toward Christians was founded in his infallible, inerrant understanding of the Tanakh? What if Saul's motto had been "I don't care if Jesus Himself shows up and tells me that I was wrong about what the scriptures say, I'm right and anyone who comes to tell me I'm wrong, I'm a shoot Him in the head" ?

You have done a great *** of describing how many LDS feel about their church. I have heard it said that "I don't care if you prove that the LDS church is false, I will never leave it". We still show that the first vision was an evolving story. We show that the Bible, or the BofM DON'T teach LDS doctrines such as the physical nature of God, priesthood, and works based salvation. We show where Joseph Smith changed God from being the Being that is changeless, who speaks and preforms what He has said and never offers excuses for failure because He never fails. We have shown that mormonism has created a weak God that can't make a way for men to keep His commandments. A god that has to take back commandments He gave, to cause new and everlasting ordinances to be revoked. A God that allowed a man, a prophet, to teach a new and different God, and that God being a mere man, the man Adam..

Mormonism has broken the Law, turned away from the Lord God to idols invented by a man, invented their own priesthoods, and allow God to fail all the while insisting that they are God's one and only true church.. Your "What ifs" conform to mormonism much more than the controversy of the beliefs of Pre, Mid, or Post trib rapture.. In them you don't find anyone denying that the traditional Jesus is God.. IHS jim

[alanmolstad]

This is why Paul warns us so carefully against the very same stuff that Smith and the Mormons all fell for.

Paul tells us that it don't matter a hoot who the person is who shows up with a new teaching,(a holy man, an angel, or even God himself, its all a moot point) the thing Paul tells us to do is put the teachings of the person to the test of Scripture.

This is the best way to not be confused into thinking a demon is a good angel.

Remember a demon from Hell is not going to appear to us in a red cape and horns...LOL
Rather the Bible tells us that Satan appears to us as an angel of heaven....

The trick to remember is to disregard who you think brings you this new message, and to just be clear-headed enough to take this new teaching and compare it to the scriptures.

This is how we learn that whatever it was that did or did not appear to Smith, we know it was not an angel from heaven.

The same is true if one day I was out walking in the woods and saw a being of light with wings holding a book of new teachings he wanted me to have.
I would disregard who I thought the being was, and simply take the teachings and put them up against what the bible teaches.


If it is in 100% agreement with the bible?....then it's a valid angel and I would listen to him.

If its in disagreement with the bible?......I would stomp on the faker's neck and soot him in the head.

[Snow Patrol]

You don't have to clarify it any more than you have. You trust your own knowledge of what the Bible says over God's knowledge. Plain and simple.

I just find it interested that one would hold to that belief knowing that so many people have come to different conclusions on what the Bible says yet they use the same Bible to come to their beliefs. It is just interesting.

[alanmolstad]

Once again,,,Im taking myself out of the decision...as we have been commanded to do!>>>>

Pauls words are clear....

Paul didnt say, "But if the angel who hands you the false teachings looks like a good angel?..then its okay to just believe him regardless of what the Bible says"


NO!


We are to not care a hoot who we think just handed us the new teachings!

Paul tells us to test the teachings....case-closed.



a question>


So....lets say Im walking in the woods and I see a being with wings, and this being hands me a book of new teachings.
How do I decided if this winged-being is an angel or a demon?

[alanmolstad]

a question:
How do I decided if this winged-being with a new bunch of teachings is an angel or a demon?

by his handshake?...LOL

by his color?

[Snow Patrol]

Once again,,,Im taking myself out of the decision...as we have been commanded to do!>>>>

Pauls words are clear....

Paul didnt say, "But if the angel who hands you the false teachings looks like a good angel?..then its okay to just believe him regardless of what the Bible says"


NO!


We are to not care a hoot who we think just handed us the new teachings!

Paul tells us to test the teachings....case-closed.



How can you honestly say you take yourself out of the decision? You read the Bible and come to a conclusion on what it says. Someone else reads the same Bible and comes to a different conclusion. So person A gets visited by a being and decides that what the being says is incorrect based on his conclusions. Person B gets visited and decides what is said is correct based on his different conclusions. You base your decisions on whether this being is good or not is determined by YOUR understanding of the Bible.




a question>


So....lets say Im walking in the woods and I see a being with wings, and this being hands me a book of new teachings.
How do I decided if this winged-being is an angel or a demon?


How did Saul know he was visited by an angel and not the devil?

[James Banta]

You don't have to clarify it any more than you have. You trust your own knowledge of what the Bible says over God's knowledge. Plain and simple.

I just find it interested that one would hold to that belief knowing that so many people have come to different conclusions on what the Bible says yet they use the same Bible to come to their beliefs. It is just interesting.

Whose knowledge wrote the Bible? Is it the word of God as the LDS creed demands it to be? If the Bible is the word of God then using it for doctrine (What you believe), for reproof, for correction, and for instruction in righteousness is reliance on God's knowledge and not on my own.. PLAIN AN SIMPLE.

I believe only what the Bible teaches.. I believe that God is one Lord (Deut 6:4, Mark 12:29). I believe that the Father is God (John 20:17). I believe that Jesus is God (John 1:1). I believe that the Holy Spirit is God (Acts 5:3-4). I believer that by holding faith in Jesus I will never die but have everlasting life (John 3:15-16). I believe that by God's grace I have been saved through Faith in Jesus and not of my works (Eph 2:8-9).. I believe I can Know I have eternal live because I believe on Jesus (1 John 5:13).

You can see those same promises. You seem to reject them by either completely rejecting them or adding to them the knowledge of your own or the knowledge of other men who you trust more than the promises of Jesus to see to it that His word never dies. His promise that He will always be with us.. Still when I believe what the Bible teaches instead of what I think it should teach you accuse me of trusting in my own knowledge.. Ask anyone if that makes sense.. IHS jim

[alanmolstad]

How can you honestly say you take yourself out of the decision? we have to rely on the words of saint paul.....his words warn us, but also guide us out of danger.

Look, there are many false gods in the world, many lying spirits, many fallen angels....Im sure there are going to be times when we are faced with someone who brings word of a new teaching....

This is just what Paul said would happen......and why his advice on how to handle this situation is so key to not falling for the lie of the devil.

So based of what Paul has taught , I know what I would do, and what I continue to do in regards to new teachings that come to us from (as Paul warned us of) "Angels from heaven"

[alanmolstad]

So....this is how I would handle the situation shroud I ever see an angel, or should someone ever approach me with a new teaching that he says came from an angel from heaven..

I would say - "Fine, I got no problem at all with angels showing up with a message for the church"

Then I would go on to say - "The fact that the message that has been given comes from an angel is a moot point. The Bible warns us that Satan can also appear as an angel from heaven too. So how do i tell if it truly was an angel from heaven, or a demon from Hell?.....Thats easy....compare this message that is given to us with what we already have received in the Bible"

So that is what I would do....take this or any other message that is said to have come down from above and put it to the test of Scripture.

Now.....What if Im getting ready to compare it to the Bible and the angel tells me that he has a problem with me doing that?...My simple response is I would stomp on his neck and shoot him in the head.

And, if the angel were to try to get me to doubt the Scriptures as Satan did in the Garden?...("Did God really say...?") then my response would be the same,,,stomp on his neck, shoot him in the head.


If on the other hand, the Lord did send the angel, then all that the angel says has to be in 100% harmony with the bible.
If it is in agreement?...then I got no issues with it.

[Snow Patrol]

So....this is how I would handle the situation shroud I ever see an angel, or should someone ever approach me with a new teaching that he says came from an angel from heaven..

I would say - "Fine, I got no problem at all with angels showing up with a message for the church"

Then I would go on to say - "The fact that the message that has been given comes from an angel is a moot point. The Bible warns us that Satan can also appear as an angel from heaven too. So how do i tell if it truly was an angel from heaven, or a demon from Hell?.....Thats easy....compare this message that is given to us with what we already have received in the Bible"

So that is what I would do....take this or any other message that is said to have come down from above and put it to the test of Scripture.

Now.....What if Im getting ready to compare it to the Bible and the angel tells me that he has a problem with me doing that?...My simple response is I would stomp on his neck and shoot him in the head.

And, if the angel were to try to get me to doubt the Scriptures as Satan did in the Garden?...("Did God really say...?") then my response would be the same,,,stomp on his neck, shoot him in the head.


If on the other hand, the Lord did send the angel, then all that the angel says has to be in 100% harmony with the bible.
If it is in agreement?...then I got no issues with it.


The problem Alanmolstad is that from the very beginning of our exchange I made it clear that we have not been talking about whether or not the being was an angel. Remember, to start you did not have any qualifiers, you knew it was God. That is why I've been questioning you on your comments. Somehow you've now switched into not being sure and so you have to check it against the Bible. You've changed what you've been talking about while I've maintained the original premise and that is that you KNEW it was God and still would question him because you believe your understanding of the Bible is better than God telling you something.

[Apologette]

So....this is how I would handle the situation shroud I ever see an angel, or should someone ever approach me with a new teaching that he says came from an angel from heaven..

I would say - "Fine, I got no problem at all with angels showing up with a message for the church"

Then I would go on to say - "The fact that the message that has been given comes from an angel is a moot point. The Bible warns us that Satan can also appear as an angel from heaven too. So how do i tell if it truly was an angel from heaven, or a demon from Hell?.....Thats easy....compare this message that is given to us with what we already have received in the Bible"

So that is what I would do....take this or any other message that is said to have come down from above and put it to the test of Scripture.

Now.....What if Im getting ready to compare it to the Bible and the angel tells me that he has a problem with me doing that?...My simple response is I would stomp on his neck and shoot him in the head.

And, if the angel were to try to get me to doubt the Scriptures as Satan did in the Garden?...("Did God really say...?") then my response would be the same,,,stomp on his neck, shoot him in the head.


If on the other hand, the Lord did send the angel, then all that the angel says has to be in 100% harmony with the bible.
If it is in agreement?...then I got no issues with it.

I'd ask the "angel" whether or not Jesus came in the flesh. This really works. When the apparition at Medjugorje pretending to be Mary was asked that question, the "woman" hedged and tip toed all around it. Never got around to actually saying, "yes, Jesus came in the flesh." However, the "visionaries" didn't seem to have a problem! As far as Mormonism goes, they teach that Satan's brother came in the flesh, an obvious diabolical twist.

[alanmolstad]

The problem Alanmolstad is that from the very beginning of our exchange I made it clear that we have not been talking about whether or not the being was an angel. Remember, to start you did not have any qualifiers, you knew it was God. That is why I've been questioning you on your comments. Somehow you've now switched into not being sure and so you have to check it against the Bible. You've changed what you've been talking about while I've maintained the original premise and that is that you KNEW it was God and still would question him because you believe your understanding of the Bible is better than God telling you something.


You can ask me any questions about any post i have made...they all are the same and all are based on the same text.

Everything I have said is based on the text that we received from saint Paul about not listening to himself, or even a angel from heaven if the message is different that what we have already received.

Now if there is anything I have posted that you think is different than what im saying now...just name the post for me to go have a look at it and i will let you know what i was aiming at with it,,,,,


(From your post you seem to have the idea that I am changing my tune about what Im saying, and if you have gotten this idea then I have to be more careful in how I write.
I never aimed to write to you in a style that suggests this is an idea of mine that is evolving...LOL
I sure thought I have been very careful to write down my thoughts as clearly as I knew how...I have not tried to use any symbolic wording, nor just drop hints....But rather I have tried my best to really spell it out simply and as clearly as I could.
If along the way you have read something I have written yesterday or the day before that seems to be different than what Im saying now, please draw my attention to it so that I can have a look...I may have need to edit things differently in the future that might seem confusing from the Mormon mindset )

[alanmolstad]

So to be very clear...Paul tells us that even if he comes to us with a message that is different than what he has alread given us, that we should not listen.

Paul also tells us clearly that if even a angel from heaven comes with a different message we should not listen.

Now building on this i have added the idea that even if the giant hand of god, REACHED down from heaven with a book for us, and that book taught a different gospel than what we already have in the bible, we should not listen.

so.....this means that even if i was 100% sure that the person speaking to me was Saint Paul himself, right there in the flesh, yet if he started teaching a different Gospel I would turn away and not go back.

That is what Saint Paul told us to do, so that is what I would do!








Even if I was 100% sure I was listening to a true angel of heaven, it would not matter squat to me if what that angel said was different than what we have already received in the Bible...

That is what Saint Paul told us to do, so that is what I would do!






Even if I was 10MILLION % sure that it was God himself who has appeared to me, if what God said was different than what we read in the bible i would not listen....and would shake the dust from my shoes as I walked away.


That is not exactly word-for-word what Paul said to do, but it is based on what he said to do.





Why would I act this way?*....because we were warned this type of **** would happen to the church one day by Paul....
And we are told that the "Faith was ONCE FOR ALL" given to us.

There is nothing new on the way...nothing different to learn....Nothing later to be restated....

The Faith was ONCE for all given.....

So any new "Faith" is fake.
any Angels that teach different are demons
Any Apostle that preaches differently is a False teacher.
Any "God" that goes against what is already received in the bible is Satan....





* this is the answer to the question asked in post #111

[alanmolstad]

So any new "Faith" is fake.
any angels that teach different are demons
Any Apostle that preaches differently that the message that was once for all given is a False teacher.
Any "God" that goes against what is already received in the bible is Satan....


I think if you check you will see that every one of my posts is in agreement with what Im saying above.
That because we were warned by Paul against the wild stories of angels with new teachings, and because we have been told clearly that the Christian faith was once for all given, we know that any new different stuff is fake...

[Snow Patrol]

You can ask me any questions about any post i have made...they all are the same and all are based on the same text.

Everything I have said is based on the text that we received from saint Paul about not listening to himself, or even a angel from heaven if the message is different that what we have already received.

Now if there is anything I have posted that you think is different than what im saying now...just name the post for me to go have a look at it and i will let you know what i was aiming at with it,,,,,


(From your post you seem to have the idea that I am changing my tune about what Im saying, and if you have gotten this idea then I have to be more careful in how I write.
I never aimed to write to you in a style that suggests this is an idea of mine that is evolving...LOL
I sure thought I have been very careful to write down my thoughts as clearly as I knew how...I have not tried to use any symbolic wording, nor just drop hints....But rather I have tried my best to really spell it out simply and as clearly as I could.
If along the way you have read something I have written yesterday or the day before that seems to be different than what Im saying now, please draw my attention to it so that I can have a look...I may have need to edit things differently in the future that might seem confusing from the Mormon mindset )


"Here is my answer:

It does not matter.
it does not matter how much a person believes that the Golden Plates are real.
it does not matter if i received them myself, from an angel, with all the company of heaven singing "Holy Holy holy"

it does not matter if i looked up and saw God's hands lowering them down to be in person.

None of that matters.......if"


In the bolded part above you do not use any qualifiers. You say even if it was God, and you knew beyond doubt, giving you the information you would trust your own interpretation of what the Bible is over God's information. Then you started talking about a "being" visiting you. I was questioning how you would turn away God because you know better than God what the Bible says. I just find that interesting.

[alanmolstad]

"You say even if it was God, and you knew beyond doubt, giving you the information you would trust your own interpretation of what the Bible is over God's information. "

You must be reading some other guy's posts....have I ever used the word "Interpretation"?

Or is that something you are adding to my post, then turning around and asking me to defend a term I did not use?

I have tried to be careful to use the correct words and terms to carry the idea I was attempting to get across.
If I ever used that term in all of this discussion you have a question about, then point to where.
But if you are adding things to my posts and then pointing to them added bits as the place where I'm in error?....LOL
Then you are kinda in a different world and don't need me getting in the way...LOL





All I can do is look at posts that I did write - look at the words that I did use and see if I have or have not worded them correctly?...
If you have a problem with ANYTHING I have written just point to the post and the words I did write and I can have a look.

But I cant well defend words you dreamed up!



I have written a great many things.
Have a look at all what I have said, and if I actually have said something you question..
(Some thing I actually wrote, not just something people ***ume I must have meant) ...then list where you would want me to reexamine.



You know what......


This reminds me of the time that a member of a CULT attacked me because they said I had written that "Men can become Gods"
They went on and on in many posts telling everyone how I had posted that I believed that "Men can become gods"

Finally I went after the guy after trying to get him to stop by telling him that putting words in my mouth like he was doing is against the rules and I would get him banned for doing so!

That got his attention and so he finally went looking for the post that he said that I posted that "men become gods"....and do you know what he was looking at?

All he had was one time I posted that in the incarnation Jesus had both a Human nature and a God nature........that was it.

Its just the basic understanding of the christian faith about who Jesus is....the normal Trinity view.

But he went looking for something to use against me, and so to him my words were close enough to what he "wanted" me to say so he just went off and faked to everyone on the forum that I had said "men become gods" when he knew better and was only attempting to put words in my mouth that he had dreamed up ....


Something he learned to never do again by the way.....

[Snow Patrol]

"You say even if it was God, and you knew beyond doubt, giving you the information you would trust your own interpretation of what the Bible is over God's information. "

You must be reading some other guy's posts....have I ever used the word "Interpretation"?

Or is that something you are adding to my post, then turning around and asking me to defend a term I did not use?


Ok, let's break this down a little. In your post that I quoted, and clarified with you, there were no qualifiers that it was God appearing to you. You KNOW it is God.

Second part of this is that even though you KNOW it is God that is appearing before you, you would test what HE is saying against the Bible. Right?

Ok, do we both agree that God knows everything and that everything includes the Bible?

Can we both agree that both you and I know less than God about the Bible?

Can we both agree that two different people can come to different beliefs using the same Bible?

If so, how do you know that your understanding of the Bible is the correct one? Or how do you know your "intrepretation" of the Bible is correct?

So if you acknowledge that both you and I know less than God, how would you feel comfortable questioning God on what HE was telling you?

[alanmolstad]

Im still editing the speellen...give it aq moment to be in final form

[alanmolstad]

there....that post is done now.....half was written on a phone with ZERO spell-checking...so it takes a while to get things up as i want them to look and be easy to read....


Thanks...

[alanmolstad]

, how would you feel comfortable questioning God on what HE was telling you?
see post 107

[Snow Patrol]

see post 107

One of the key things that I'm not sure you answered is related to this "Paul tells us that even if he comes to us with a message that is different than what he has alread given us".

How do you know that your understanding of the Bible is the correct one? Maybe Paul or God is trying to tell you are wrong.

I've tried getting an answer by asking if two different people can come to two different beliefs from the same Bible, then how does one know their understanding is correct?

[alanmolstad]

One of the key things that I'm not sure you answered is related to this "Paul tells us that even if he comes to us with a message that is different than what he has alread given us".

How do you know that your understanding of the Bible is the correct one? Maybe Paul or God is trying to tell you are wrong.

I've tried getting an answer by asking if two different people can come to two different beliefs from the same Bible, then how does one know their understanding is correct?




what does the bible tell us to do?.........(you should know this by now...)

Who does the bible say were more " nobel"?
What did they do when they wanted to know what was true?
What did they use to learn the truth?

[Snow Patrol]

what does the bible tell us to do?.........(you should know this by now...)

Who does the bible say were more " nobel"?
What did they do when they wanted to know what was true?
What did they use to learn the truth?


Yes, the Bible does tell us to search the scriptures. That is a good thing, absolutely. However, that does not answer my questions.

1. If two people read the same Bible and come away with different beliefs, whose beliefs are correct?
2. How do you know you have the correct understanding of the Bible?

[alanmolstad]

Yes, the Bible does tell us to search the scriptures. That is a good thing, absolutely. However, that does not answer my questions.

1. If two people read the same Bible and come away with different beliefs, whose beliefs are correct?
2. How do you know you have the correct understanding of the Bible?


I have to check to be sure, but I think I answered this in post 107...

Just take your question and change it from "two people" to "me and an angel from heaven"...or "Me and God Almighty"...its the same basic idea and my answer works in both cases...

[alanmolstad]

yes its 107

[alanmolstad]

as I have said, my answer is always the same to all these questions...so get ready to be referred back to #107 if you want to keep asking the same question...

My #107 answer is based on the text where your question actually came up in the life of Paul.
Acts 17:11....

"Now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true."


There is our example....you put all things to the test of scripture.
There is your answer!
There is your only answer by the way...


2 people disagree?....take it to the scriptures, put things to the test.
Angel brings a message?...take it to the scriptures, put it to the test.

Even if you are sure that it is God who just said it to you....it's a moot point if what is said is different than what we have in the Bible.
There is no other authority.....there is no other means to decide what is true....there is no other place to appeal to...


This is the same answer I have given on this topic from the start...and will continue to be the only answer that I have until the end of time.

The only authority given to us to find the truth is the Scriptures.

Any and all new teachings must submit to them.


Now if you want me to keep pointing you to my #107 post, feel free to keep asking me over and over the same questions I answered there....I dont mind...I have the free time to day .

[Snow Patrol]

as I have said, my answer is always the same to all these questions...so get ready to be referred back to #107 if you want to keep asking the same question...

My #107 answer is based on the text where your question actually came up in the life of Paul.
Acts 17:11....

"Now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true."


There is our example....you put all things to the test of scripture.
There is your answer!
There is your only answer by the way...


2 people disagree?....take it to the scriptures, put things to the test.
Angel brings a message?...take it to the scriptures, put it to the test.

Even if you are sure that it is God who just said it to you....it's a moot point if what is said is different than what we have in the Bible.
There is no other authority.....there is no other means to decide what is true....there is no other place to appeal to...


This is the same answer I have given on this topic from the start...and will continue to be the only answer that I have until the end of time.

The only authority given to us to find the truth is the Scriptures.

Any and all new teachings must submit to them.


Now if you want me to keep pointing you to my #107 post, feel free to keep asking me over and over the same questions I answered there....I dont mind...I have the free time to day .

The truth is arbitrary, not absolute, according to you.

Well, most people will say that truth is absolulte. Most will say that if two people come to different conclusions on what the Bible says then they both can't be right. You believe otherwise apparently. I really don't believe that God believes in arbitrary truth.

[alanmolstad]

The truth is arbitrary, not absolute, according to you.

Well, most people will say that truth is absolulte. Most will say that if two people come to different conclusions on what the Bible says then they both can't be right. You believe otherwise apparently. I really don't believe that God believes in arbitrary truth.

I have written more than enough words on my own...there is no need to dream up other words for me and them put them in my mouth.

If I have written something you question, then tell me what post?..what sentence?...But dont invent things I did not say and then ask me how do I defend them?

[Snow Patrol]

I have written more than enough words on my own...there is no need to dream up other words for me and them put them in my mouth.

If I have written something you question, then tell me what post?..what sentence?...But dont invent things I did not say and then ask me how do I defend them?

If you don't believe truth is arbitrary, then how can two people with differing beliefs turn to the same Bible and search it against an experience like we've been talking about. They have already come to different conclusions so if they both get visited by and angel, or God Himself, they are going to get different answers when going back to the Bible. How can they be sure their understanding is the correct one?

Do you agree that two different people who hold different beliefs about the same Bible that they both can't be right?

[alanmolstad]

If you don't believe truth is arbitrary, then how can two people with differing beliefs turn to the same Bible and search it against an experience like we've been talking about. They have already come to different conclusions so if they both get visited by and angel, or God Himself, they are going to get different answers when going back to the Bible. How can they be sure their understanding is the correct one?


see post #107 & #120

[Snow Patrol]

see post #107 & #120

You keep pointing back to that, but how about you quote what you said in answer to my question because I sure don't see the answer in #107

[Snow Patrol]

Nevermind, you are obviously getting frustrated with my not grasping your responses and I'm getting there on not being able to see how your previous post answers my questions so I guess let's call it a night.

[alanmolstad]

ok,,,its like this...

Your question is very much like a situation that came up in the New testiment.

The Bible tells us that Paul was teaching and that there was a very serious debate as to the truth of what paul was teaching?

The Bible tells us how the matter was handled.

ACTS 17:11.....


That is the answer the bible has to your question.
The answer is to take the new teachings to the bible and see if they agree?
That is the Bible's answer....and that is why it's my ONLY answer.

I dont have any other answer.

You can ask over and over, but my answer will always center around ACTS 17:11.

Now in my post #107 I address this point from a slightly different dirrection.
Different because I am talking about a difference of point of view between me and an Angel or between me and God almighty, whereas you have asked a question dealing with a disagreement between "two people".

But the answer I gave in post #107 is close enough to the answer that i would give to your question that we can use it for here.
Like i said, just replace in your question that words "two people" with the example i talked about where Im dealing with "Me and an angel"...or ..."me and God"




The answer in #107 was that i would take the teaching I received from the angel of God, and put it to the test of scripture....

Why do this?.....why do i dare put the Lord's new teaching to the test like this?....
The answer is that this is the command we are given, the only example the bible gives us on how to learn if a teaching is true or not......we appeal to ACTS 17:11 for our guidance.




Thats it.
Thats my answer.
thats my only answer.

I dont say "Flip a coin"
I dont say, "Im thinking of a number between 1 and 10, now guess it"
I dont say, "Lets all join hands, now offer the lucky prayer someone"

My answer is to do what we are told to do.
We are told to take the teachings of anyone to the Scriptures and that is what we should do...case-closed!

[Snow Patrol]

Thats it.
Thats my answer.
thats my only answer.

I dont say "Flip a coin"
I dont say, "Im thinking of a number between 1 and 10, now guess it"
I dont say, "Lets all join hands, now offer the lucky prayer someone"

My answer is to do what we are told to do.
We are told to take the teachings of anyone to the Scriptures and that is what we should do...case-closed!


And that is why I say I think you believe in arbitrary truth. Your case-closed answer is only case-closed in your mind BECAUSE of the fact that the one source of truth, the Bible, has yielded many different beliefs of what it says. Even though you don't come out and say it, you are letting each individual decide what the Bible says to them. That is arbitrary truth.

[Phoenix]

If you don't believe truth is arbitrary, then how can two people with differing beliefs turn to the same Bible and search it against an experience like we've been talking about. They have already come to different conclusions so if they both get visited by and angel, or God Himself, they are going to get different answers when going back to the Bible. How can they be sure their understanding is the correct one?

Do you agree that two different people who hold different beliefs about the same Bible that they both can't be right?

That is an interesting question that you have raised.

Suppose Person A and Person B have read the Bible, and have come to opposite conclusions about something--for example, whether unborn babies sin even before birth. While these persons are in the midst of arguing over whose interpretation of the Bible is correct, Jesus shows up and says "I want to end the arguing: Person A's interpretation is correct, and Person's B's is not."

According to what Alan seems to have said, Person A would probably say "Thanks, Jesus, for confirming that I have been correctly understanding the Bible regarding this subject."

While Person B would say "I am following Paul's advice: It doesn't matter who appears with a message saying that I am wrong about this, I am supposed to reject anyone who says that my interpretation of the Bible is incorrect, so I reject you, Jesus."

[alanmolstad]

i have shown you how your question is answered in the Text....

if you have a verse that also addresses your question then list it and i would be happy to have a look.

but my answer is the only answer i have..and it is strongly supported in the text.

acts 17:11 we read that Person A had a teaching....Person B put it to the test of Schipture

Person A is Paul...Person B is the church in that city....

So the bible tells us how to handle this issue.

[Snow Patrol]

That is an interesting question that you have raised.

Suppose Person A and Person B have read the Bible, and have come to opposite conclusions about something--for example, whether unborn babies sin even before birth. While these persons are in the midst of arguing over whose interpretation of the Bible is correct, Jesus shows up and says "I want to end the arguing: Person A's interpretation is correct, and Person's B's is not."

According to what Alan seems to have said, Person A would probably say "Thanks, Jesus, for confirming that I have been correctly understanding the Bible regarding this subject."

While Person B would say "I am following Paul's advice: It doesn't matter who appears with a message saying that I am wrong about this, I am supposed to reject anyone who says that my interpretation of the Bible is incorrect, so I reject you, Jesus."


How about this....

A Mormon, Trinitarian, and Modalist are walking down the road together. All of sudden Christ appears and says that "I am one with the Father." All three continue walking on thinking they are right according to their testing it against scriptures.

[James Banta]

How about this....

A Mormon, Trinitarian, and Modalist are walking down the road together. All of sudden Christ appears and says that "I am one with the Father." All three continue walking on thinking they are right according to their testing it against scriptures.

Yes the mormon adds "In purpose" to the word of Jesus.. The modalist is convinced that Jesus said that because He is the Father in a different form (Mode), and the Chrsitian say "Yes Lord you are fully God, as is the Father, yet I trust you when you taught that The Lord our God is One Lord".. The Mormon put words in the mouth of Jesus, The modalist denies the the evidence from scripture that John the Baptist was witness to each of the persons of God at the baptism of Jesus.. Only the Christian confessed the deity of Jesus, and the Father separately yet still recognized the truthfulness of God word.. IHS jim

[alanmolstad]

How about this....

A Mormon, Trinitarian, and Modalist are walking down the road together. All of sudden Christ appears and says that "I am one with the Father." All three continue walking on thinking they are right according to their testing it against scriptures.

if you* are a christian...if you look to the bible for your answers to questions about god....then you never do wrong to turn to ACTS 17:11 for guidance when a disagreement comes up about a question.......

You may not find it's answers as fast as the flip of a coin....but we have Gods word that if we seek him we shall find him....





* I mean any of us, not you personally

[alanmolstad]

Yes the mormon adds ..... while the question deals with religions that are not christian in nature and so they have answers that are aimed for them...the heart of the issue raised by Snow Patrol is valid.

How do 3 people from different points of view find an answer as to what is truth when they come at it from different directions?


My answer is the only one that works as it is the only one that is supported by the bible.

we must submit to the authority of ACTS 17:11...that is the only path we can walk in...all the others lead sooner or later to a ditch...

[alanmolstad]

so has post #134 wrapped it up enough?

I have not much else to tell you on the issue.
You have asked a normal question that people ask.."How to find the truth?"
And the bible answers this question clearly.
We also have the advantage to read an account where the very same type of question came up in the ministry of Saint Paul himself.

We get to read how the Bible wants us to answer this challenge.

the answer we get is not as quick as the flip of a coin...its not as fast as turning a switch,,,or looking for the answer in the back of the book.

But the answer we got is the best answer because it draws us closer to the lord as we seek our answers....

[Phoenix]

so has post #134 wrapped it up enough?
It has adequately explained your position. It hasn't persuasively supported it, though.



And the bible answers this question clearly.
Yes, the Bible answers it clearly....in James 1:5-7


We get to read how the Bible wants us to answer this challenge.
Yes, in James 1:5-7


the answer we get is not as quick as the flip of a coin...its not as fast as turning a switch,,,or looking for the answer in the back of the book.
But the answer we got is the best answer because it draws us closer to the lord as we seek our answers....

Yes, using James 1:5-7 as your guide should indeed draw you closer to the Lord as you seek answers.

[alanmolstad]

It has adequately explained your position. It hasn't persuasively supported it, though.



.well....Im then going to look of the bright side, and be happy with that...
The most a guy can really hope for is to be given a chance to stand at home plate and get his 3 good swings.

And the James1:5-7 verse has been a good guide for me all along as I have posted on this topic.
I think what the people did at ACTS 17:11 is based on the correct use of James 1:5-7.
Now the James verse is dealing not so much with our topic here, but is about the topic of "WISDOM"

Wisdom to me is what?, I define "wisdom" as the correct use of knowledge gained over time.

In this case of our topic here, good wisdom would be to use the bible to put all things to the test .

This idea of testing teachings by scriptures comes out in this next verse -
1 John 4:1 "Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.

and that also is supported by the verse at - 1 Thessalonians 5:21
"Test all things; hold fast that which is good."

All these verses deal with the same type of situation we have been talking about here where there is a debate between two or more people as to how to understand and trust a new teaching?

The wisdom spoken of in James 1:5-7 is what leads the people to act as they did when seeking the truth at ACTS 17:11 "These people were more receptive than those in Thessalonica. They were very willing to receive the message, and every day they carefully examined the Scriptures to see if those things were so"

[alanmolstad]

So to sum it up...

The wise thing to do when there is a question about a new teaching that someone brings to the church is to take this new teaching and test it by the Scriptures.


case-closed.

[Phoenix]

So to sum it up...

The wise thing to do when there is a question about a new teaching that someone brings to the church is to take this new teaching and test it by the Scriptures. case-closed.

And when two people apply that test, and get contradicting answers? Is the case really closed, then?

[alanmolstad]

And when two people apply that test, and get contradicting answers? Is the case really closed, then?
You keep asking the same question...and I keep telling you about the only answer the Bible gives us...

ACTS 17:11.....


Go read the verse and answer this question..."How long did Bereans examine the Scriptures?"


go read the verse.....I will wait

[alanmolstad]

And when two people apply that test, and get contradicting answers? Is the case really closed, then?
my posts that I have pointed to are still my only answer...
its the only answer that works....

Consider....when they have a report in the news that at some store they discovered some counterfeit bills being p***ed, the way they discover them is the the counterfeit bills look different in some way than real bills..

The reason they discover the fake bills is that the police are very familiar with real money....

You learn to spot the fake by studying the real....




(On a side note, I keep seeing you ask the same question over and over like you have an issue in mind that you want to get to? All i can tell you is that the situation in your questions came up in the ACTS verse, and so we dont have to just guess what the answer is, we can read what others did when they had to deal with this issue....But for some reason you keep asking the same question over again, yet you know that the ACTS verse deals with your question and is a great guide for us?......so this hints that you simply have a different answer in mind?
All i can tell you is that "This is the only thing Paul told us to do, so that is what we need to do" and leave it at that....

we need to take all disagreements to the test of scriptures.)

[Phoenix]

The wake-up message for you is that the scriptures don't answer all questions, not even all questions about the scriptures themselves.

[alanmolstad]

The wake-up message for you is that the scriptures don't answer all questions, not even all questions about the scriptures themselves.

we compare any teaching to the scriptures,,,that is the example we are given....that is what i do....

[RealFakeHair]

The wake-up message for you is that the scriptures don't answer all questions, not even all questions about the scriptures themselves.
Jesus said, "To search the Scriptures."
Joseph Smith jr. said, " Hey babe wanta see my revelation in my pocket?"

[James Banta]

You don't have to clarify it any more than you have. You trust your own knowledge of what the Bible says over God's knowledge. Plain and simple.

I just find it interested that one would hold to that belief knowing that so many people have come to different conclusions on what the Bible says yet they use the same Bible to come to their beliefs. It is just interesting.

Can you show me any conclusions that a group has come to that are different that the pure gospel of Jesus virgin birth, sinless life, subs***ution sacrifice, and resurrected in a glorified Body? Seems to be the same message even among the cults.. The only difference in that the JW and the LDS want to change the nature of Jesus into something less that being the Mighty God the Everlasting Father.. No matter what they call it both of them make Jesus a creation rather than the creator.. That is not God's knowledge, but it is a plain and simple lie.. IHS jim

[alanmolstad]

The wake-up message for you is that the scriptures don't answer all questions, not even all questions about the scriptures themselves.
we study what is true to be able to spot what is false.

we study real money to learn how to spot the counterfeit.

If you want to know how to judge the claims of Joe Smith, you just have to compare them to the Scriptures....just like what was done to Paul's claims at ACTS 17:11.

If they are different, you reject them.
This is the example give us in the bible for determining what is true and what is fake.

[Phoenix]

we study what is true to be able to spot what is false.
we study real money to learn how to spot the counterfeit.
So in the many areas of doctrine where Christendom is split in half, each side thinking the other side is the counterfeit, how does Christendom decide which is the real money and which is the counterfeit?


This is the example give us in the bible for determining what is true and what is fake.
So in the debate over Pre-trib vs. Post-trib, infant baptism vs. don't baptize infants, Calvinism vs. Arminianism, modern musical instruments for worship music vs. a capella or old-time instruments only, women teaching men at church vs. no female teachers, what is true and what is fake? And what did the Christians who believe the fake doctrines do wrong?

[alanmolstad]

So in the many areas of doctrine where Christendom is split in half, each side thinking the other side is the counterfeit, how does Christendom decide which is the real money and which is the counterfeit?


So in the debate over Pre-trib vs. Post-trib, infant baptism vs. don't baptize infants, Calvinism vs. Arminianism, modern musical instruments for worship music vs. a capella or old-time instruments only, women teaching men at church vs. no female teachers, what is true and what is fake? And what did the Christians who believe the fake doctrines do wrong?

THE ANSWER is found by clicking on this link > http://www.waltermartin.com/forums/showthread.php?2029-A-quot-what-if-quot-question-for-critics/page5

post number #120


The answer is the same answer....
The same answer I gave a while back ...
Why is the bible's clear answer in this situation so difficult to trust?

The situation in ACTS 17:11 is just like the question you have asked above.(believers struggling to learn if a teaching is correct or not)..and the answer we are given shows us what is the way to handle this situation.

Why is this so hard to grasp?



You need me to repeat my answers again?....perhaps I might be able to use a few new words to say the very same thing I have said before, but would that help?

the bible is so darn clear at acts 17:11 that I dont really have any wiggle-room to come up with new ways to talk about this....

[Snow Patrol]

THE ANSWER is found by clicking on this link > http://www.waltermartin.com/forums/showthread.php?2029-A-quot-what-if-quot-question-for-critics/page5

post number #120


The answer is the same answer....
The same answer I gave a while back ...
Why is the bible's clear answer in this situation so difficult to trust?

The situation in ACTS 17:11 is just like the question you have asked above.(believers struggling to learn if a teaching is correct or not)..and the answer we are given shows us what is the way to handle this situation.

Why is this so hard to grasp?


Because the Bible doesn't answer it. It tells you to the search the scriptures but the answer then depends on the individual's interpretation of what the Bible says. It goes back to you believe that truth is relative. It all depends on what the individual thinks it says.

[Phoenix]

Because the Bible doesn't answer it. It tells you to the search the scriptures but the answer then depends on the individual's interpretation of what the Bible says. It goes back to you believe that truth is relative. It all depends on what the individual thinks it says.

So it becomes an endless, futile cycle:

"I need help figuring out whether God wants Christians to baptize kids who are only 1 year old. What should I do? To whom should I go?"

"Go to the Bible. That is the only place God wants you to go, and that is where your answer will be found."

"I went to the Bible, but I am not sure I got the right answer from it, because my pastor went to the Bible and the answer he claims he got is different from the one I got. I am not even sure the answer is in there. So I still need help figuring out whether God wants Christians to baptize kids who are only 1 year old. What should I do now?"

"Go to the Bible....."

"I already did that, and I still don't have any ***urance that I got the right answer, or that the Bible even answers the question. But I did find in the Bible some advice: That I should ask God, and that if I ask Him then the thing I ask for would be given. How about if I follow that advice that I found in the Bible?"

What would you tell this person, Alan?

[James Banta]

[Phoenix;154645]So in the many areas of doctrine where Christendom is split in half, each side thinking the other side is the counterfeit, how does Christendom decide which is the real money and which is the counterfeit?

I am wondering what you mean by counterfeit? Wouldn't that mean false Christianity. That MUST be a group that calls it's self Christian but refuse to submit to God's instructions.. Maybe a group that teaches some other means of salvation than the simple message of God Grace activated by simple faith in the Jesus described in the Bible..

Do you know how the US Treasury teaches people how to distinguish a fake bill from a real one? They don't show them fakes. They immerse them in the real thing.. Day and night the study what make the real thing, real.. The Bible does show us the REAL Jesus, His REAL salvation. Only those immersed in the lies would have trouble not seeing the truth, even looking hard for it.. Jesus gave it to us in John 3:15-16.

John 3:15-16
That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.


So with the words of Jesus teaching so simply so completely the way to Life why would anyone tell themselves that people get different messages from the scripture?


So in the debate over Pre-trib vs. Post-trib, infant baptism vs. don't baptize infants, Calvinism vs. Arminianism, modern musical instruments for worship music vs. a capella or old-time instruments only, women teaching men at church vs. no female teachers, what is true and what is fake? And what did the Christians who believe the fake doctrines do wrong?

Doctor Walter Martin is the reason I have decided to be post-trib. His doctring on that point was "I am Post-trib, I hope I'm wrong".. In case you have trouble fully understand the significance of that statement It says that the timing of the tribulation DOESN'T matter at all to our eternal life and our place in the household of God. That is made certain when a believer confesses Jesus as their Lord, their savior, and their God.

If salvation is by God's grace through faith in Jesus then anything we do, and I mean anything, be it baptism, singing in unison to a piano, believing that there is no male or female, bond or free in Jesus is not the way to life.. The WAY is Jesus, the truth is Jesus, the Life is Jesus.. Having faith in Him points the way through that truth to Life.. There is nothing else that matters.. NOTHING..

Mormonism has named a fictional being of it's creation Jesus. It has taught that this invention is a God.. The Father became a God far earlier than Jesus.. No one I know in mormonism can explain who in their per-existence the Holy Spirit was.. But He also became a God sometime after the Father was already God.. The mormon prophet came up with that idea of how God became God and actually said that there are three Gods not one.. How do you know if he was right or lost in a polytheistic falsehood? Immerse yourself in God's truth, His word. There you will find teachings that God is One Lord.. That there was no God formed before or after God was God.. The truth is there, all the truth. You don't see it because you will not look. IHS jim

[alanmolstad]

Because the Bible doesn't answer it. It tells you to the search the scriptures .......read ACTS 17:11....how long does it say they searched the Scriptures?

[alanmolstad]

So it becomes an endless, futile cycle:

"I need help figuring out whether God wants Christians to baptize kids who are only 1 year old. What should I do? To whom should I go?"

"Go to the Bible. That is the only place God wants you to go, and that is where your answer will be found."

"I went to the Bible, but I am not sure I got the right answer from it, because my pastor went to the Bible and the answer he claims he got is different from the one I got. I am not even sure the answer is in there. So I still need help figuring out whether God wants Christians to baptize kids who are only 1 year old. What should I do now?"

"Go to the Bible....."

"I already did that, and I still don't have any ***urance that I got the right answer, or that the Bible even answers the question. But I did find in the Bible some advice: That I should ask God, and that if I ask Him then the thing I ask for would be given. How about if I follow that advice that I found in the Bible?"

What would you tell this person, Alan?You keep thinking..."desperately" thinking that ACTS 17:11 is not our guide...

But it is...

[alanmolstad]

What would you tell this person, Alan?

The difference between freedom and being a slave is important.
Don't let others coerce you into stating things as "fact"
you know to be false.

The merit of the Christian Faith is found in the right of each person to open their Bible and seek their own answers.
This is the example Paul set for us to follow.
This is what we are supposed to do.

Test all things by the scriptures!

...and that the most beloved freedom is also the thing missing in the world of the CULTS....

As for the disagreements within the Christian church?
We always have to remember there is a reason we call each other "brother" and "sister" in the Christian church., for we are the one Body of Christ, different members of the same one body, but each member is very different.
And just like with a real family, Brothers tend to fight with each other more than anyone else, LOL....But they always love their brother.

So I would tell anyone who asks>

On the essentials of the Christian Faith we have UNITY in the Church.
One the non-essentials we demand LIBERTY.
And above all else we pray for CHARITY.

[Snow Patrol]

On the essentials of the Christian Faith we have UNITY in the Church.
One the non-essentials we demand LIBERTY.
And above all else we pray for CHARITY.


Who determines what the essentials are?

[alanmolstad]

Who determines what the essentials are?.......and given that my answer has not changed no matter the way the question is flipped around, what do you expect the answer to your question will turn out to be?.......

[Snow Patrol]

.......and given that my answer has not changed no matter the way the question is flipped around, what do you expect the answer to your question will turn out to be?.......

AlanMolstad, I know you are an intelligent person. But, do you not obviously see how your answers result in a very confusing scenario? EVERYTHING is up to the individual. There is no constant. You can say what you believe the essentials are but they can be very different than someone else belief of what the essentials are. So not only is truth relative to you, but so are the essential beliefs of Christianity.

[alanmolstad]

AlanMolstad, I know you are an intelligent person. But, ....

Why is there always a "But,..."?

Im doing fine until we get to the "but", then Im in trouble.....



We need fewer "buts" in the world....

[alanmolstad]

AlanMolstad, I know you are an intelligent person. But, do you not obviously see how your answers result in a very confusing scenario? EVERYTHING is up to the individual. There is no constant. You can say what you believe the essentials are but they can be very different than someone else belief of what the essentials are. So not only is truth relative to you, but so are the essential beliefs of Christianity.



Im simply telling you what the bible teaches in how we are to judge what is "true" and what is "false"

The ACTS 17:11 verse instructs us in the same situation I have been asked about, over, and over , and over.....and....over and over...etc,etc,etc


Paul went before some people and gave his teachings to them.

We read that the people were very interested in what Paul was saying, but did not trust off-hand what he was saying at all.
So to learn the truth the people went every day to the Scriptures to check out what Paul was saying and comparing it to what they already knew to be from God.


This is how the church judged the words of Paul....
and this is how we are to judge any new teaching that comes walking in the door today too.


"But Alan, this might take a lot of time"........yes that is what happened in the ACTS 17 verse too, notice it says they dug into the Scriptures putting teachings to the test "every day"


it never stops.......its something a person does all the time...
Every teaching you hear of you put to the test of the Bible...
You never ***ume anything...
Its doesn't matter what you "feel" is the truth.
It doesn't matter what others have told you is the truth.....you challenge everything.

It does not matter what person, angel, or god is carrying the teaching into the church

You grab that teach and slap it down in a chair, and put it to the test of the Scriptures.
If it agrees?...then you got no issues with it.
if it disagrees?....then reject it, and reject the man, angel or god that brought it in the door.






so.....if you want to keep on asking me the same question, "But Alan what if two people disagree?" then go ahead.

I dont mind it one bit...but to save time and make this go faster I may just refer you to posts I have already written that answer this question when it was first asked 2 or more weeks ago....

[Phoenix]

I am wondering what you mean by counterfeit?
In my post to Alan, I was talking about people who disagree over doctrines--how can they figure out what the doctrine should be? Alan apparently believes that the only acceptable and effective answer is to go to the Bible. I said that the scriptures don't answer all questions, not even all questions about the scriptures themselves.

That's when Alan said

we study real money to learn how to spot the counterfeit.

So my reply to Alan was

in the many areas of doctrine where Christendom is split in half, each side thinking the other side is the counterfeit, how does Christendom decide which is the real money and which is the counterfeit?



Wouldn't that mean false Christianity.
That may be what Alan was referring to, but I was talking about Christendom, which I wouldn't call false Christianity. Alan kind of forced that point of view onto it. In his context of the discussion, if 2 Christians disagree over a doctrine, each must think the other's position to be counterfeit. But just because you disagree with some other Christian over which competing doctrine is the correct one, it doesn't mean that one or both of you is a false Christian. The millions of people who had doctrine-related disagreements over centuries were not all false Christians.


Do you know how the US Treasury teaches people how to distinguish a fake bill from a real one?
No, I don't know, but there is a common "urban legend" on the Internet about how they do it.


They don't show them fakes. They immerse them in the real thing..
Yeah, that's the one! Did you verify it with official Treasury sources, that the legend is true? Or are you just spreading something from the Internet that you saw or heard about?


So with the words of Jesus teaching so simply so completely the way to Life why would anyone tell themselves that people get different messages from the scripture?
Because it is a fact that people get different messages from the scripture. The fact that Christendom is divided into those groups I mentioned, is pretty good evidence of that. If everyone has been in agreement for the past 19 centuries on what scripture says, the world of Christendom, and the whole world in general, would be a much different place than it is today.


Doctor Walter Martin is the reason I have decided to be post-trib.
What if a Pre-tribber says "The BIBLE is the reason I have decided to be Pre-Trib" ??

It still seems like a fact that not all Christians see the same message when they read scripture.

That is why some of us were asking Alan some questions about his solution to this problem.

[RealFakeHair]

we study real money to learn how to spot the counterfeit.
We Christians study the Holy Bible to spot counterfeit religions, ie LDSinc. Jehovah witness, and (episcpalians.)lol

[alanmolstad]

in my post to alan, i was talking about people who disagree over doctrines--how can they figure out what the doctrine should be? ...........acts 17:11

[alanmolstad]

.[/U]

That is why some of us were asking Alan some questions about his solution to this problem.


this is NOT MY SOLUTION!.....
I have never said, "Well Im not sure what others do, but I think you might try____"

Im not making any of this stuff up!
The issue, this SAME issue came up within the life of Paul, and we read in th book of ACTS how to handle this situation...

You take it to the Scriptures!

No other answer is found in the text.
No other answer is correct.....because no other answer was used when Paul was teaching and this is the reason we read about it now!

ACTS 17 is our example.....its our guide...its how they did it...its how we are to do it...


Its not my idea.

[alanmolstad]

Yeah, that's the one! Did you verify it with official Treasury sources, that the legend is true? Or are you just spreading something from the Internet that you saw or heard about?

.

a fair question.....you want to know if the Treasury Department trains its officers in knowing what a real dollar looks like?and how to spot a fake one?

Thats what you are asking correct?.....that seems like a nice question to seek an answer about...

[Snow Patrol]

Im simply telling you what the bible teaches in how we are to judge what is "true" and what is "false"

The ACTS 17:11 verse instructs us in the same situation I have been asked about, over, and over , and over.....and....over and over...etc,etc,etc


Paul went before some people and gave his teachings to them.

We read that the people were very interested in what Paul was saying, but did not trust off-hand what he was saying at all.
So to learn the truth the people went every day to the Scriptures to check out what Paul was saying and comparing it to what they already knew to be from God.


This is how the church judged the words of Paul....
and this is how we are to judge any new teaching that comes walking in the door today too.


"But Alan, this might take a lot of time"........yes that is what happened in the ACTS 17 verse too, notice it says they dug into the Scriptures putting teachings to the test "every day"


it never stops.......its something a person does all the time...
Every teaching you hear of you put to the test of the Bible...
You never ***ume anything...
Its doesn't matter what you "feel" is the truth.
It doesn't matter what others have told you is the truth.....you challenge everything.

It does not matter what person, angel, or god is carrying the teaching into the church

You grab that teach and slap it down in a chair, and put it to the test of the Scriptures.
If it agrees?...then you got no issues with it.
if it disagrees?....then reject it, and reject the man, angel or god that brought it in the door.






so.....if you want to keep on asking me the same question, "But Alan what if two people disagree?" then go ahead.

I dont mind it one bit...but to save time and make this go faster I may just refer you to posts I have already written that answer this question when it was first asked 2 or more weeks ago....


You do understand that we aren't necessarily talking about the process, right? I don't dispute that one should turn to the Bible for their answers. As you acknowledged elsewhere there is a problem with the RESULT of turning to the Bible. Again I use the example of a Mormon, Modalist, and Trinitarian walking down the street and Christ appears to them. He says "I am the way, the truth, and the life". All three turn to their Bibles to determine if what He said was true. All three believe they are. Yet I know that many, if not all, of the LDS critics will say that the Mormon and the Modalist are correct because they don't believe in the "right" Jesus. All three turned to the same Bible and all three believe they are correct. Belief in who God is is an essential doctrine, right? Can all three be right?

If you answer "all three can be right" then you believe in relative truth.

So how about we get past the process and start talking about the results of the process. What do we do when three different people research the Bible and end up with different answers? If it is over an essential doctrine, like the example above, and there isn't unity.... what do we do?

[alanmolstad]

You do understand that we aren't necessarily talking about the process, right? I don't dispute that one should turn to the Bible for their answers. As you acknowledged elsewhere there is a problem with the RESULT of turning to the Bible. Again I use the example of a Mormon, Modalist, and Trinitarian walking down the street and Christ appears to them. He says "I am the way, the truth, and the life". All three turn to their Bibles to determine if what He said was true. All three believe they are. Yet I know that many, if not all, of the LDS critics will say that the Mormon and the Modalist are correct because they don't believe in the "right" Jesus. All three turned to the same Bible and all three believe they are correct. Belief in who God is is an essential doctrine, right? Can all three be right?

If you answer "all three can be right" then you believe in relative truth.

So how about we get past the process and start talking about the results of the process. What do we do when three different people research the Bible and end up with different answers? If it is over an essential doctrine, like the example above, and there isn't unity.... what do we do?


"...and end up with different answers?"
same question gets the same answer.....nothing changed.

[alanmolstad]

"...and end up with different answers?"
same question gets the same answer.....nothing changed.


You know, besides the chance you are just stuck in some type on un-ending loop, what really strikes me about the same question being asked over and over is that perhaps you think that down the line there will be a different answer from me?

Is that what you are thinking?

That if you somehow think of just the right way to phrase the question that you will get a different answer from me?

or.....

perhaps you believe that the teachings that I believe are based on something else becides the bible?
Are you thinking that I based my views of a majority vote?....I went with the mob?

Are you thinking I based my views on what this other guy said was true?

Some guy said, "Hey listen to me Im a Prophet" and I just bent the knee before him?

Are you thinking that I allowed some other guys whom I dont even know, vote, and Im stuck with believing whatever they voted to be this week's "truth"?

Or....are you thinking that I base my views on a lucky 8-ball?


All I can say is that after all this time, you should have a grasp that Alan goes to the Bible for what he believes...

[Snow Patrol]

You know, besides the chance you are just stuck in some type on un-ending loop, what really strikes me about the same question being asked over and over is that perhaps you think that down the line there will be a different answer from me?

Is that what you are thinking?

That if you somehow think of just the right way to phrase the question that you will get a different answer from me?

or.....

perhaps you believe that the teachings that I believe are based on something else becides the bible?
Are you thinking that I based my views of a majority vote?....I went with the mob?

Are you thinking I based my views on what this other guy said was true?

Some guy said, "Hey listen to me Im a Prophet" and I just bent the knee before him?

Are you thinking that I allowed some other guys whom I dont even know, vote, and Im stuck with believing whatever they voted to be this week's "truth"?

Or....are you thinking that I base my views on a lucky 8-ball?


All I can say is that after all this time, you should have a grasp that Alan goes to the Bible for what he believes...


Actually I think it is you that is stuck. You are stuck on the process. Your process for finding answers is to turn to the Bible. Fine, I agree.

Will you admit that you and I believe differently?

Will you admit that we both go to the same Bible to get our understanding of God. (You know 39 books in Old Testament, 27 books in New Testament)

If we believe differently yet use the same Bible for our PROCESS of verifying truth, then it is the RESULTS that are different, not the process. Right?

If I believe there are three persons in the Godhead and you believe there are three persons in one God are we both right because we used the same Bible as our source?

[RealFakeHair]

You know, besides the chance you are just stuck in some type on un-ending loop, what really strikes me about the same question being asked over and over is that perhaps you think that down the line there will be a different answer from me?

Is that what you are thinking?

That if you somehow think of just the right way to phrase the question that you will get a different answer from me?

or.....

perhaps you believe that the teachings that I believe are based on something else becides the bible?
Are you thinking that I based my views of a majority vote?....I went with the mob?

Are you thinking I based my views on what this other guy said was true?

Some guy said, "Hey listen to me Im a Prophet" and I just bent the knee before him?

Are you thinking that I allowed some other guys whom I dont even know, vote, and Im stuck with believing whatever they voted to be this week's "truth"?

Or....are you thinking that I base my views on a lucky 8-ball?


All I can say is that after all this time, you should have a grasp that Alan goes to the Bible for what he believes...
Lets look at the br*** tacks here, mormons do not trust the Holy Bible. This is the stick in the eye of every cult member of any cult religion. Until a TBM can come to trust The Jesus Christ of the Holy Bible and His Word that is found in the Holy Bible, it will be impossible for any LDSinc. Member to comprehend the total faith we have in His Word.

[alanmolstad]

Actually I think it is you that is stuck. You are stuck on the process. Your process for finding answers is to turn to the Bible. Fine, I agree.

Will you admit that you and I believe differently?

Will you admit that we both go to the same Bible to get our understanding of God. (You know 39 books in Old Testament, 27 books in New Testament)

If we believe differently yet use the same Bible for our PROCESS of verifying truth, then it is the RESULTS that are different, not the process. Right?

If I believe there are three persons in the Godhead and you believe there are three persons in one God are we both right because we used the same Bible as our source?

read ACTS 17;11...and ask yourself this question...

How long did it take them to search the Scriptures to learn if Paul was telling the truth?.....what does it say?

[alanmolstad]

Lets look at the br*** tacks here, mormons do not trust the Holy Bible. ..

Is that all what this loopin is about?.....the Mormons dont trust the Bible because they know it teaches against their views, so they dont even like the idea of putting new teachings to the test of Scriptures?

[Snow Patrol]

read ACTS 17;11...and ask yourself this question...

How long did it take them to search the Scriptures to learn if Paul was telling the truth?.....what does it say?

Do you have a concern about answering those four direct questions? I even asked them so you could answer yes or no.

[Snow Patrol]

Is that all what this loopin is about?.....the Mormons dont trust the Bible because they know it teaches against their views, so they dont even like the idea of putting new teachings to the test of Scriptures?

Not at all. It is because you simple refuse to deal with RESULTS of your Acts 17:11 answer. Take Mormons out of it for a second. Why are there Modalists out there? Don't they do what you ask them to do? They could study the Bible the rest of their lives and still conclude that they have the correct understanding of God and believe that you are the one in error.

[alanmolstad]

Do you have a concern about answering those four direct questions? I even asked them so you could answer yes or no.

acts 17:11.....you go to the text to test a new teaching against the scriptures.

that is where i go....if you say that is the ONLY place you go to find the truth?...then great!

that is where we draw our truth from

[Snow Patrol]

acts 17:11.....you go to the text to test a new teaching against the scriptures.

that is where i go....if you say that is the ONLY place you go to find the truth?...then great!

that is where we draw our truth from

I'll take that as a "YES" you do have a concern answering a direct question.

And the critics of the LDS say we have a problem answer direct questions. Sheesh.

[alanmolstad]

snow...so the idea that two people "might" come to a different conclusion is such a huge problem that it means you should not even try?...just be happy in one's ignorance ?

Thats not how I roll......

[Phoenix]

Lets look at the br*** tacks here, mormons do not trust the Holy Bible.
They seem to trust it exactly where you and Alan do not trust it. That is the br*** tacks here.
The LDS trust James 1:5-7, and this verse:
And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive.

Matthew 21:21-23


This is the stick in the eye of every cult member of any cult religion.
Matthew 21:21-23 is a stick in the eye of every member of your cult.


Until a TBM can come to trust The Jesus Christ of the Holy Bible and His Word that is found in the Holy Bible,
As you have seen, TBMs DO trust The Jesus Christ of the Holy Bible and His Word that is found in the Holy Bible, such as in Matt. 21



it will be impossible for any LDSinc. Member to comprehend the total faith we have in His Word.
You seem to be evidence that you don't have total faith in it, since James 1 and Matt. 21 seem to not be worth much to you.

Will it always be impossible for any member of ANTI-LDS, Inc. to comprehend the faith that the LDS have in His Word?

[alanmolstad]

look Snow.....take James here and myself...both two super good Christians to be sure, but do you think we get all bent out of shape if over some topics we might disagree?.....

Within the Christian's freedom of thought, there is a given that there will be from time to time a difference of point of view.

That is where charity is needed.
Within any family you will find that brothers never are going to agree on everything.

I think that is why we pick our own friends, but God picks our Brothers,,,,because aside from that fact God picked this person to be my brother, we would not have much to do with them...LOL



The deal is that when James and I disagree, (and that actually happens a lot on many minor issues) what we both must hold fast to is the idea that we need to back-up our views with the bible.
This means that when Alan says something that James does not think is correct, then James can come back and say "Prove that Alan" and in saying this James has challenged me to come up with valid, BIBLE-BACKED reasons for my views.

If I dont have any?...then James has proved his point and has shown that my views are the ideas that a guy just thought up on his own.
But if I come back with a set of Bible-supported text that I believe support my views, then we are now talking with the same common source as our guide...

and at that point we do something called, "Reasoning from the Scriptures".....where we both use the Scriptures to make our case.

Sometimes there is a meeting of the minds....
Sometimes there is no common ground at all.

But all I really ask is that I get my chance to say my case, and that James also supports his case with bible-backed reasoning only.....

Can you guess what I would say if James tried to support his case with a reason like - "My church leadership says this, and so everyone in my church believes the same"
??????

I would be all over him for such a ****py answer dealing with such an important matter as to what he believes ...

James knows better however.
James knows that he better be ready to support anything he posts with only Bible source material.
That is why when you are a Christian you can have interesting conversations without fearing that you will be reported for being "different" compared to others in your home church.

You can have a real conversation.

It's not a race, its a conversation...it has ebb and flow to it.
And if James makes a strong case in the correct manner, I will tend to think about his points long after the conversation ended.

This is the true merit of freedom of thought....
The freedom to think....the freedom to consider....the freedom to see things from other points of view...

[James Banta]

look Snow.....take James here and myself...both two super good Christians to be sure, but do you think we get all bent out of shape if over some topics we might disagree?.....

Within the Christian's freedom of thought, there is a given that there will be from time to time a difference of point of view.

That is where charity is needed.
Within any family you will find that brothers never are going to agree on everything.

I think that is why we pick our own friends, but God picks our Brothers,,,,because aside from that fact God picked this person to be my brother, we would not have much to do with them...LOL



The deal is that when James and I disagree, (and that actually happens a lot on many minor issues) what we both must hold fast to is the idea that we need to back-up our views with the bible.
This means that when Alan says something that James does not think is correct, then James can come back and say "Prove that Alan" and in saying this James has challenged me to come up with valid, BIBLE-BACKED reasons for my views.

If I dont have any?...then James has proved his point and has shown that my views are the ideas that a guy just thought up on his own.
But if I come back with a set of Bible-supported text that I believe support my views, then we are now talking with the same common source as our guide...

and at that point we do something called, "Reasoning from the Scriptures".....where we both use the Scriptures to make our case.

Sometimes there is a meeting of the minds....
Sometimes there is no common ground at all.

But all I really ask is that I get my chance to say my case, and that James also supports his case with bible-backed reasoning only.....

Can you guess what I would say if James tried to support his case with a reason like - "My church leadership says this, and so everyone in my church believes the same"
??????

I would be all over him for such a ****py answer dealing with such an important matter as to what he believes ...

James known better however.
James knows that he better be ready to support anything he posts with only Bible source material.
That is why when you are a Christian you can have interesting conversations without fearing that you will be reported for being "different" compared to others in your home church.

You can have a real conversation.

It's not a race, its a conversation...it has ebb and flow to it.
And if James makes a strong case in the correct manner, I will tend to think about his points long after the conversation ended.

This is the true merit of freedom of thought....
The freedom to think....the freedom to consider....the freedom to see things from other points of view...

All that is the truth Alan, but we have never disagreed that the heart (Nature) of mankind is inherently evil. That Jesus entered mortality to seek and then save all who would come to Him and be born again as His children.. That He became sin for them and made the the righteousness of God in Him.. In short we believe the Gospel and there is no separation between us in it.. IHS jim

[alanmolstad]

so lets review.


When two Christians strong in their faith like James here and myself have a conversation, you will notice there is>

On the essential teachings, there is Unity

On the nonessential teachings there is Liberty

and for the other person there is Charity.


James supports his views with the Bible....I respect that.
And at ACTS 17:11 we see our guidance as to how we should behave when looking for truth.

[Phoenix]

read ACTS 17;11...and ask yourself this question...

How long did it take them to search the Scriptures to learn if Paul was telling the truth?.....what does it say?

It says this:

11 The Beroean Jews were more honorable than those in Thessalonica. This was evident in the great eagerness with which they accepted the word and examined the scriptures each day to see whether Paul and Silas’ teaching was true.

You ask: "How long did it take them to search the scriptures?"
I don't think the Bible answers that question, if you are asking how long it took them to start searching, or how long it took them before they completed their search.

It says they examined the scriptures every day--probably meaning "every day that Paul and Silas were in Berea teaching."

[alanmolstad]

It says this:.....and examined the scriptures each day to see whether Paul and Silas’ teaching was true.[/COLOR]

You ask: "How long did it take them to search the scriptures?"
I don't think the Bible answers that question,.........

?


You can lead a horse to water......


This reminds me of the time I was debating with a Christian over the story of Genesis...and I asked the Christian to read me the first verse?

So the ye Christian read to me, "In the beginning God made the heavens and the earth"

Then I asked the Christian, "Ok, so what does the bible say God made first "in the beginning"?

The Christian refused to answer that question, LOL and that was so funny as they had just read the verse to me, but because they did not like where I was headed with my question that simply said to me, "Well, thats what it says, but thats not what it means so I dont think that verse tells us what god made in the beginning"


LOL

So I had them read the first verse of the Bible again , and then asked them, "What does the bible say was made first in the beginning by God"

They shot back, "It does not say what was made in the beginning"

round and round we went...LOL




The answer is in your post....the answer is in the verse you quote.

[James Banta]

so lets review.


When two Christians strong in their faith like James here and myself have a conversation, you will notice there is>

On the essential teachings, there is Unity

On the nonessential teachings there is Liberty

and for the other person there is Charity.


James supports his views with the Bible....I respect that.
And at ACTS 17:11 we see our guidance as to how we should behave when looking for truth.

The Bereaians weren't praise because they heard the message of life through Jesusand prayed about it.. They were honorable because they searched the scriptures to see if these things are true.. Mormonism is just the opposite. It asks you to pray and understand that the scripture is unreliable.. If the Bereaians were shown to be honorable for turning to the scripture what does that make mormonism for turning to emotion? IHS jim

[James Banta]

They seem to trust it exactly where you and Alan do not trust it. That is the br*** tacks here.
The LDS trust James 1:5-7, and this verse:
And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive.

Matthew 21:21-23


Matthew 21:21-23 is a stick in the eye of every member of your cult.


As you have seen, TBMs DO trust The Jesus Christ of the Holy Bible and His Word that is found in the Holy Bible, such as in Matt. 21



You seem to be evidence that you don't have total faith in it, since James 1 and Matt. 21 seem to not be worth much to you.

Will it always be impossible for any member of ANTI-LDS, Inc. to comprehend the faith that the LDS have in His Word?

Believing? Does that mean we believe that God will be our vending machine and give us everything we ask for OR does it mean that as we believe God He gives us according to our faith? As we allow God to sanctify us we become more and more like our Lord.. His will becomes our will and that belief in Him makes it possible to receive everything we ask Him to give to us.. Like all other p***ages this one is based on having faith in Jesus.. IHS jim

[Phoenix]

?
You can lead a horse to water......
....but the horse still may use "Go to the Bible" as a pat answer to everything, and end up dying of thirst.


This reminds me of the time I was debating with a Christian over the story of Genesis...
...and a heartwarming story it was, but it wasn't relevant.


The answer is in your post....the answer is in the verse you quote.
Or, the answer you mistakenly think is in the verse, isn't really in the verse.

[alanmolstad]

....but the horse still may use "Go to the Bible" as a pat answer to everything, and end up dying of thirst.
.

"You will seek me and find me..."

The answer is to go the the Bible....seek answers there....dont give up....each day seek answers....Test all things by the Bible.

If something supports the bible?....fine.

If something is different?...reject it.

[alanmolstad]

....but the horse still may use "Go to the Bible" as a pat answer ....

Just remember its the bible's answer.
the question keeps being asked, "What if people disagree?' like its "*** someone came to a different conclusion!!!!!!"

The verse in ACTS 17:11 gives us a very good example of that very thing happening..

The church in that town did not just kneel down before the logic of Paul's words, but rather they put Paul's teachings to the test of the Scriptures"each day"

they were seeking the truth, and did not believe that Paul's teachings were true at the beginning....thus there was a disagreement, and we are given the Bible's instructions as to how to seek the truth when a teaching is heard in the church and there is a question or debate about it being true or not.


We are to take it to the Scriptures.....test it.....test it over and over each day....

That is how we find truth, that is the only standard the Christian is given to judge truth by.




"But Alan what if two people simply disagree even after reading the Bible?"........
......

The answer is :..."Charity".

The freedom to disagree, and being in Disagreements are an important sign that you are not in a CULT.

You cant remain in a CULT if you think for yourself and disagree with the CULT's leadership.

So this is a sign that people are truly free....part of being able to make up your own mind is the freedom to have a different point of view...

But it also required 'charity" from your brother and sister Christians that may well consider your views in error.
You got to be able to understand that part of being a Christian means that we are not slaves to a leadership....we are free to disagree..but required to disagree in love.

Its like when Paul refused to take John Mark with him on his 2nd trip.
Remember how Barnabas wanted John with but Paul was dead-set against it....sometimes brothers in the church will disagree...and they simply do not have any meeting of the minds on an issue.

In that case you extend charity and move on...

Its the same and this is also our guide when people within the christian church disagree on a teaching.
They may not ever have a meeting of the minds on a teachings, but then thats how it is at times.

But you extend love and charity to the person, and move on.

[alanmolstad]

Will you admit that you and I believe differently?

I was debating a Christian friend the other day on facebook.
the other person believed that Christians do not starve to death, and that the only reason some Christians are poor is that they lack 'faith"....

They held to the ideas that Christians are guaranteed good health, healing and money in the finished work of the cross.
I disagreed.

To defend our positions, both the other Christian and myself appealed to the bible for support.






If we believe differently yet use the same Bible for our PROCESS of verifying truth, then it is the RESULTS that are different, not the process. Right?

Now the other Christian and i fully supported our own positions with many Bible texts....we did not have a meeting of the minds on these issues at all.
This happens...

This is how it is when people feel free to open the Bible and seek truth for themselves...





If I believe there are three persons in the Godhead and you believe there are three persons in one God are we both right because we used the same Bible as our source?



But in the end, you find that you learn that charity with people in the church is a very important lesson to learn how to extend....even to people you think are way off the wall and in error on a teaching...you still extend charity and mercy....

So we are not saying that "truth is changing"..or "truth is different from person to person"

But I am saying that when two people think totally 100% alike, chances are that one of them is not thinking at all....

freedom means there is always a chance of a disagreement.
it's the sign you are free....

The important thing to keep in mind is that we are given God's word that if we seek him we shall find him.
and that only in the Bible do we find the "words of Life'....there is no other place to find truth.

and that we are to test all things by the Scriptures.

that is the rule we are given...

[alanmolstad]

If I believe there are three persons in the Godhead

you believe there are three persons in one God


are we both right because we used the same Bible as our source?

http://http://www.gotquestions.org/Godhead.html
.....from my point of view...I believe both of your statements are the same...and both are right.

[RealFakeHair]

http://http://www.gotquestions.org/Godhead.html
.....from my point of view...I believe both of your statements are the same...and both are right.

I remember the time you couldn't get a mormon to say, "three persons in the godhead."
Now they said that and more, like, " three gods one purpous."
There're getting closer, but no cigar.

[Snow Patrol]

snow...so the idea that two people "might" come to a different conclusion is such a huge problem that it means you should not even try?...just be happy in one's ignorance ?

Thats not how I roll......


Why don't you point out the post where I said that one shouldn't even try.

[alanmolstad]

the point im making is that we are to always test by scriptures.....

always.....

and we are not be afraid that just because it might take a while....or....just because not everyone will agree.

thats what I am saying

[Snow Patrol]

the point im making is that we are to always test by scriptures.....

always.....

and we are not be afraid that just because it might take a while....or....just because not everyone will agree.

thats what I am saying


And maybe that has been the issue the whole time. By you saying "so the idea that two people "might" come to a different conclusion is such a huge problem that it means you should not even try?..." indicates that you've focused on the process the whole time even though I've said a few times that it wasn't.

The result is what I'm talking about. You are comfortable believing that truth is relative. What conclusion each person comes to while studying the Bible appears to be just fine with you. I would wager a bet that your fellow LDS critics here at WM would probably disagree with you on this. I do. I believe that there is absolute truth and the problem with just studying the Bible is that people have come to vast differences in beliefs using the same Bible.

[alanmolstad]

The text at ACTS 17:11 gives us our example to follow.

Paul was bringing a teaching to the church and the members of the church did not believe this message at first, but what they did is each day take the words and teachings of Paul and compared them to the Scriptures to see if what Paul was saying was true.

That is our only example on how to decide what is true and what is false.....we are to TEST it!

We are to TEST all things BY THE SCRIPTURES, and hold on to only what is true, and to reject the false...

[James Banta]

The text at ACTS 17:11 gives us our example to follow.

Paul was bringing a teaching to the church and the members of the church did not believe this message at first, but what they did is each day take the words and teachings of Paul and compared them to the Scriptures to see if what Paul was saying was true.

That is our only example on how to decide what is true and what is false.....we are to TEST it!

We are to TEST all things BY THE SCRIPTURES, and hold on to only what is true, and to reject the false...

Yes, while it is a good to prayerfully approach our scripture study it is not necessary to ask God questions in prayer that He has already answered in His word.. Then instead of read God answers in the Bible to count on emotional responses for the answers..

God tell us that He is One Lord. He tells us that He has always been God.. He tells us that we are saved by holding faith in Jesus and not by our own efforts. He says that He adds to the Church those who are being saved.. Must we, SHOULD we ask in prayer if there are three Gods of whom we have to do? Or should we ask How we can be saved? Maybe what the true Church is? Maybe we need to ask how long God has been God? Those are questions that mormonism has a different answer to than the answers provided in the Bible.. Will payer help Mormonism's answers suddenly become true if we pray about them..

As I said God has already spoken to these questions. Maybe what we should all remember to do is to believe God and pray that He conforms us to His will in the image of His Son.. We could all become closer to God, but by His power, ours will fails us.. IHS jim

[BigJulie]

the point im making is that we are to always test by scriptures.....

always.....

and we are not be afraid that just because it might take a while....or....just because not everyone will agree.

thats what I am saying

Yup, that is what I have done. I have tested the scriptures. And prayed. And sought the Spirit. And then I have lived what was taught to me--via those witnesses. And in the end, Joseph Smith was right. His revelations are true.

Here is just one small example starting in the very beginning of the Bible. God teaches:
Gen 1:26-27 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: .....So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

Now, I have heard many things about what it means to be (by non-Mormons) in the "likeness of God"--as I was told it means something like--Adam was good in the garden perfect, (likeness) and then fell and so no longer was in God's likeness. I am not sure what others believe about man being made in God's image. I have heard some explain that everything is in God's image, but when I asked why God would only say this regarding man---the answer I got was man is unique, but we are not really in God's image, etc.

But, when I search the scriptures, I find this:
Gen 5:3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth:

And then I can go all the way to the New Testament and find this:
Luk 3:38 Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.

I don't know. But it seems that God is pretty clear as to what He meant when He told us that we are in His likeness and image.

(Oh, and I am not even touching yet the fact that we learn that Christ is the express image of God the Father and that Christ shows us His resurrected body..so there it is pretty clear again.)

So, I guess I am agreeing. We should search the scriptures. In them, we find that Joseph Smith taught truth.

But, as you say----everyone can read, and not everyone will agree. That is why it is imperative to have the second witness or the witness of the Holy Ghost.

[Billyray]

Yup, that is what I have done. I have tested the scriptures. . .
BigJ mormonism conflicts with what the Bible teaches and deep down you know that.

[BigJulie]

BigJ mormonism conflicts with what the Bible teaches and deep down you know that.

Actually, deep down inside you know it doesn't conflict with what the Bible teaches. What you have done is called projection (and/or why you made your reply personal.)

I have given you an example of how the Bible matches with what Joseph Smith revealed as truth from Heavenly Father. There are many.

[alanmolstad]

BigJulie posted on the forum?

I thought she was dead?...........I owe James $5 bucks.....

[James Banta]

Yup, that is what I have done. I have tested the scriptures. And prayed. And sought the Spirit. And then I have lived what was taught to me--via those witnesses. And in the end, Joseph Smith was right. His revelations are true.

Even this one?


[B]D&C 84:2-5
Yea, the word of the Lord concerning his church, established in the last days for the restoration of his people, as he has spoken by the mouth of his prophets, and for the gathering of his saints to stand upon Mount Zion, which shall be the city of New Jerusalem.
Which city shall be built, beginning at the temple lot, which is appointed by the finger of the Lord, in the western boundaries of the State of Missouri, and dedicated by the hand of Joseph Smith, Jun., and others with whom the Lord was well pleased.
Verily this is the word of the Lord, that the city New Jerusalem shall be built by the gathering of the saints, beginning at this place, even the place of the temple, which temple shall be reared in this generation.
For verily this generation shall not all p*** away until an house shall be built unto the Lord, and a cloud shall rest upon it, which cloud shall be even the glory of the Lord, which shall fill the house.


Of course you know that this temple was never built.. That Joseph Smith later said that because of the violence against the church by mere men that he was taking back His command to build this temple.. That is a far cry from what a different prophet said about doing what God commanded.



1 Nephi 3:7
...I know that the Lord giveth no commandments unto the children of men, save he shall prepare a way for them that they may accomplish the thing which he commandeth them.


Remember the D&C p***age says that "this is the word of the Lord, that the city New Jerusalem shall be built".. According to D&C Smith's report from his God that is his commandment..

As for the prayer.. Prayer is never a bad idea can you give me a reason for your prayer.. Is it for understanding? Is it for confidence of truth? What are you praying for? I am all for prayer but the scripture alone has the power to accomplish it's goals..


2 Tim 3:15
And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.








Here is just one small example starting in the very beginning of the Bible. God teaches:

Gen 1:26-27 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: .....So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.


So God looks like a man and a woman? Is that up and down or left and right? Maybe we are in His spiritual image since God is invisible (Col 1:15)..




Now, I have heard many things about what it means to be (by non-Mormons) in the "likeness of God"--as I was told it means something like--Adam was good in the garden perfect, (likeness) and then fell and so no longer was in God's likeness. I am not sure what others believe about man being made in God's image. I have heard some explain that everything is in God's image, but when I asked why God would only say this regarding man---the answer I got was man is unique, but we are not really in God's image, etc.




But, when I search the scriptures, I find this:
Gen 5:3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth:

And then I can go all the way to the New Testament and find this:
Luk 3:38 Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.

I don't know. But it seems that God is pretty clear as to what He meant when He told us that we are in His likeness and image.

So, I guess I am agreeing. We should search the scriptures. In them, we find that Joseph Smith taught truth.

Julie, was Paul then teaching error when He reported that Jesus is the image of the invisible God..Come on how wrong could Smith say when he said that God has a body as tangible as man's? Both can't be right.. Who should we believe Paul or a man that said God couldn't deal with persecution and still provide a way to have his commandments kept.. According to what we know Smith should be rejected and the Bible affirmed.. IHS jim

[BigJulie]

BigJulie posted on the forum?

I thought she was dead?...........I owe James $5 bucks.....

Just busy with good things. :)

[BigJulie]

[QUOTE=James Banta;154823]Even this one?


D&C 84:2-5
Yea, the word of the Lord concerning his church, established in the last days for the restoration of his people, as he has spoken by the mouth of his prophets, and for the gathering of his saints to stand upon Mount Zion, which shall be the city of New Jerusalem.
Which city shall be built, beginning at the temple lot, which is appointed by the finger of the Lord, in the western boundaries of the State of Missouri, and dedicated by the hand of Joseph Smith, Jun., and others with whom the Lord was well pleased.
Verily this is the word of the Lord, that the city New Jerusalem shall be built by the gathering of the saints, beginning at this place, even the place of the temple, which temple shall be reared in this generation.
For verily this generation shall not all p*** away until an house shall be built unto the Lord, and a cloud shall rest upon it, which cloud shall be even the glory of the Lord, which shall fill the house.
Wow James--you are now trying to make your point using the D&C? Yes, what problem do you have with this verse?

Of course you know that this temple was never built.. That Joseph Smith later said that because of the violence against the church by mere men that he was taking back His command to build this temple.. That is a far cry from what a different prophet said about doing what God commanded. At this point there are over 100 temples built.


1 Nephi 3:7
...I know that the Lord giveth no commandments unto the children of men, save he shall prepare a way for them that they may accomplish the thing which he commandeth them.

Yup, which is why there are over 100 temples now.


Remember the D&C p***age says that "this is the word of the Lord, that the city New Jerusalem shall be built".. According to D&C Smith's report from his God that is his commandment.. Yes, it is being built even as we speak--and will continue.


As for the prayer.. Prayer is never a bad idea can you give me a reason for your prayer.. Is it for understanding? Is it for confidence of truth? What are you praying for? I am all for prayer but the scripture alone has the power to accomplish it's goals.. As noted, the Holy Ghost bears witness to us of the scriptures--through the Holy Ghost, there is no need of contention as to what the scriptures mean.



2 Tim 3:15
And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

Yes, Joseph Smith was 14 when he received his first revelation.



So God looks like a man and a woman? Is that up and down or left and right? Maybe we are in His spiritual image since God is invisible (Col 1:15)..
[INDENT]
Well, look at the word "our" image. I know that you know that God, as translated correctly from Hebrew actually means "gods"---not to hard to understand really.


Julie, was Paul then teaching error when He reported that Jesus is the image of the invisible God..Come on how wrong could Smith say when he said that God has a body as tangible as man's? Both can't be right.. Who should we believe Paul or a man that said God couldn't deal with persecution and still provide a way to have his commandments kept.. According to what we know Smith should be rejected and the Bible affirmed.. IHS jim Nope, because God is invisible to us. But obviously, for instance, Stephen saw Christ standing on the right hand of God.
But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God.

You know, I always find it fascinating the lengths some go to explain that God the Father is NOT like Jesus Christ, all the while contending that they are One.

But as I noted James---we will disagree---which is why ALL need the witness of the Holy Ghost.

Jhn 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Why do you think Christ taught that the Holy Ghost will teach us ALL things---and have us remember what he said? (Which was written down.) Why doesn't Christ tell us that we can learn all from the scriptures?

[Libby]

Just busy with good things. :)

Very nice to see you here, again, Julie. :)

[James Banta]

while the question deals with religions that are not christian in nature and so they have answers that are aimed for them...the heart of the issue raised by Snow Patrol is valid.

How do 3 people from different points of view find an answer as to what is truth when they come at it from different directions?


My answer is the only one that works as it is the only one that is supported by the bible.

we must submit to the authority of ACTS 17:11...that is the only path we can walk in...all the others lead sooner or later to a ditch...

Any new doctrine must submit it's self to the authority of scripture. It's like saying that the Father has a body as tangible as man's, when the Bible teaches God is Spirit, that a spirit doesn't have a body of flesh and bone, and that Jesus is the image of the invisible God.. If we would be as noble as the believers in Berea and search the scriptures and then hold onto what the scriptures teach and cast away all the other claptrap as error mormonism would have never even started.. IHS jim

[BigJulie]

Very nice to see you here, again, Julie. :)

Thanks Libby---good to hear from you too.

[BigJulie]

Any new doctrine must submit it's self to the authority of scripture. It's like saying that the Father has a body as tangible as man's, when the Bible teaches God is Spirit, that a spirit doesn't have a body of flesh and bone, and that Jesus is the image of the invisible God.. If we would be as noble as the believers in Berea and search the scriptures and then hold onto what the scriptures teach and cast away all the other claptrap as error mormonism would have never even started.. IHS jim

The authority has always been and always will be God. All doctrine must submit to God.

I don't think Christ is saying that God does not have a body, but rather how we get to know Him. One does not exclude the other.

Is your argument that Christ is NOT the same as the Father---that we do not understand or know the Father by knowing Christ? Is that your argument?

[RealFakeHair]

The authority has always been and always will be God. All doctrine must submit to God.

I don't think Christ is saying that God does not have a body, but rather how we get to know Him. One does not exclude the other.

Is your argument that Christ is NOT the same as the Father---that we do not understand or know the Father by knowing Christ? Is that your argument?
The Holy Bible doesn't tell us God has a body, it does say God is Spirit. The Holy Bible tells us Man is made in God's image.
I'd like to believe everyone female here would worship me seeing my body is the image of God. However I want to believe being in the image if God is more in the line of knowledge. However I come up short there too. So what does it mean?
I believe it is Consciousness of the eternal Soul. God of the Holy Bible is eternal, and thus is His creation, Man.
God is Spirit, man has spirit, and thus is our connection with God of the Holy Bible.

[BigJulie]

The Holy Bible doesn't tell us God has a body, it does say God is Spirit. The Holy Bible tells us Man is made in God's image.
I'd like to believe everyone female here would worship me seeing my body is the image of God. However I want to believe being in the image if God is more in the line of knowledge. However I come up short there too. So what does it mean?
I believe it is Consciousness of the eternal Soul. God of the Holy Bible is eternal, and thus is His creation, Man.
God is Spirit, man has spirit, and thus is our connection with God of the Holy Bible.

It does say "God is Spirit"---but with that, we learn this--Jhn 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

How do you worship someone in spirit? Does that mean that you must separate your spirit from your body to worship God? Or does this verse speak to the fact that we know God by His Spirit and we worship Him by our spirit?

So, then do we ignore that Christ has a body of flesh and bones AFTER He was resurrected? Do we ignore His teachings that we learn of the Father by Him? Do we believe that God the Father is something so entirely different than Jesus Christ? Or do we accept that God has a body because Jesus Christ has a body?

As I noted earlier, it is amazing to me the lengths some go to show the differences between the Father and the Son, especially in light of your understanding that they are one.

[Billyray]

Actually, deep down inside you know it doesn't conflict with what the Bible teaches.

False BigJ--if I thought that the Bible was consistent with what mormonism teaches then I would still be mormon (or a minimum still believe that the mormon church teaches truth).



What you have done is called projection (and/or why you made your reply personal.)

What I have done is tell the truth that mormonism is not consistent with what the Bible teaches. But after all of our discussions you simply forgot what we talked about or are in serious denial. But that is OK I am happy to talk about it again. Let's start with this one.

Christianity teaches Monotheism
Mormonism teaches Polytheism

Which one is consistent with what the Bible teaches?

[Billyray]

Gen 1:26-27 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: .....So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

Who are "us" in this verse?

Who are "our" in this verse?

[Billyray]

Just busy with good things. :)
Would you say that you are "good" based on your own works?

[BigJulie]

False BigJ--if I thought that the Bible was consistent with what mormonism teaches then I would still be mormon (or a minimum still believe that the mormon church teaches truth). And because I am still Mormon, then you should also make the ***umption that I do believe the Bible is consistent with what The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints teaches...but as you ***ume you know my heart and mind, I can only ***ume it is projection. As how else could you ***ume to know my thoughts if they are not yours?


What I have done is tell the truth that mormonism is not consistent with what the Bible teaches. But after all of our discussions you simply forgot what we talked about or are in serious denial. But that is OK I am happy to talk about it again. Let's start with this one. Actually, Billyray, all you did was convince me that your beliefs are not consistent with the Bible. You have your own brand of beliefs that even some Christians don't agree with. (I still remember Jill erasing some threads as you argued out your beliefs with other Christians.)

[BigJulie]

Who are "us" in this verse?

Who are "our" in this verse?

That is the question, Billyray----isn't it. Who is the "us" and "our" to you?

[Billyray]

And because I am still Mormon, then you should also make the ***umption that I do believe the Bible is consistent with what The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints teaches...
Would you say that the unique teachings of mormonism are taught in the Bible or are they extra Biblical teachings?

[Billyray]

Actually, Billyray, all you did was convince me that your beliefs are not consistent with the Bible.

Perhaps you could start with the following to see if your view or my view is more consistent with what the Bible teaches.

Christianity teaches Monotheism
Mormonism teaches Polytheism

Which one is consistent with what the Bible teaches?

[Billyray]

That is the question, Billyray----isn't it.
Can you at least address my question since you are the one who brought it up as support for mormonism. Here it is again.


Gen 1:26-27 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: .....So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

Who are "us" in this verse?

Who are "our" in this verse?

[BigJulie]

Can you at least address my question since you are the one who brought it up as support for mormonism. Here it is again.

I already did--as the Hebrew word "elohim" means "gods"---so it makes total sense to say "us" and "our".

Your turn. Why do you think it says "us" and "our"?

[BigJulie]

Perhaps you could start with the following to see if your view or my view is more consistent with what the Bible teaches.

Christianity teaches Monotheism
Mormonism teaches Polytheism

Which one is consistent with what the Bible teaches?

Leading and complex question---logical fallacy. Do you want to address what we really believe or just discuss and argue your own premise and false conclusions?

[Billyray]

I already did--as the Hebrew word "elohim" means "gods"---so it makes total sense to say "us" and "our".

Gen 1:26-27 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: .....So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.*

So your position (i.e. the mormon position) is that God the Father said "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness" he was speaking about himself when using both "us" and "our"?

[Billyray]

Leading and complex question--
Complex question? Really? You are simply trying to avoid a a simple question. Here it is again, perhaps you can address it this time.

Christianity teaches Monotheism
Mormonism teaches Polytheism

Which one is consistent with what the Bible teaches?

[BigJulie]

Complex question? Really? You are simply trying to avoid a a simple question. Here it is again, perhaps you can address it this time.

Christianity teaches Monotheism
Mormonism teaches Polytheism

Which one is consistent with what the Bible teaches?

Actually, I am not (avoiding the question). I just pointed out that you made a logical fallacy. A complex question does not mean it is hard to answer, it means that within the question, you made a premise that was false. It would be like asking---when you started your house on fire, did you feel bad? Well, if you knew that you did not start your house on fire, then there is no point in answering the question. It is what you did and what you do on a regular basis.

But, I am off to doing good things again....I have a busy week ahead.

We will let anyone who reads look up and do their own studying as to what "elohim" means and why Genesis uses it and the words "us" and "our". There are many thoughts about this. I have heard some Christians explain it as the royal "we"---but I don't agree. (As I think when a king used it, he meant himself and God, whom he believed appointed him to his position.) I have heard some say it is because it is recognizing a plural word such as divinity or maybe even Godhead. You have not answered this yourself. To me, it is simple. God is the God of gods---as such, when he said our--he was speaking to those with him and included himself. Those would be those "great and noble ones" that were there in the pre-existence with him. Jesus Christ was there, of course as part of the Godhead.

[Billyray]

Actually, I am not (avoiding the question). . .

Actually, you are avoiding the question--again. Here it is one more time. You pretend that you want to discuss the truth but games like this prove that you have no interest in really discussing the truth. Do you?


Christianity teaches Monotheism
Mormonism teaches Polytheism

Which one is consistent with what the Bible teaches?

[Billyray]

Gen 1:26-27 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: .....So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.


To me, it is simple. God is the God of gods---as such, when he said our--he was speaking to those with him and included himself. Those would be those "great and noble ones" that were there in the pre-existence with him. Jesus Christ was there, of course as part of the Godhead.

Can you be more specific? So far you have stated that the gods spoken about in this verse are: 1. God the Father 2. Jesus Christ. Who are the other gods that you think were present? (I am asking because it is important when discussing this verse in context to your original use of this verse in support of mormonism).

[RealFakeHair]

BigJulie posted on the forum?

I thought she was dead?...........I owe James $5 bucks.....

And I sent flowers to the funeral.

[James Banta]

Actually, I am not (avoiding the question). I just pointed out that you made a logical fallacy. A complex question does not mean it is hard to answer, it means that within the question, you made a premise that was false. It would be like asking---when you started your house on fire, did you feel bad? Well, if you knew that you did not start your house on fire, then there is no point in answering the question. It is what you did and what you do on a regular basis.

But, I am off to doing good things again....I have a busy week ahead.

We will let anyone who reads look up and do their own studying as to what "elohim" means and why Genesis uses it and the words "us" and "our". There are many thoughts about this. I have heard some Christians explain it as the royal "we"---but I don't agree. (As I think when a king used it, he meant himself and God, whom he believed appointed him to his position.) I have heard some say it is because it is recognizing a plural word such as divinity or maybe even Godhead. You have not answered this yourself. To me, it is simple. God is the God of gods---as such, when he said our--he was speaking to those with him and included himself. Those would be those "great and noble ones" that were there in the pre-existence with him. Jesus Christ was there, of course as part of the Godhead.

Sorry but it looks like you are inventing your own meanings to words again.. Elohim (אֱלֹהִים) is a grammatically singular or plural (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grammatical_number) noun (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noun) for "god" or "gods" in both modern (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_Hebrew_language) and ancient Hebrew language (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Hebrew_language). (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elohim) When used with singular verbs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verbs) and adjectives (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adjectives) elohim is usually singular, "god" or especially, the God (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_in_Judaism). (Glinert Modern Hebrew: An Essential Grammar Routledge p14 section 13). But lets not be to quick to judge you too harshly.. Since elohim can be plural we must acknowledge that it extends to to beings other than The God.. The word is identical to the usual plural of el meaning gods or magistrates, and is cognate to the 'l-h-m found in Ugaritic, where it is used for the pantheon of Canaanite gods, the children of El and conventionally vocalized as "Elohim" (Moses Maimonides. "Guide for the Perplexed"). It is clear from all this that the teaching that there is more than one God is NOT what the text in the Bible ever meant to convey. Only the uneducated could have come up with such a doctrine.. IHS jim

[James Banta]

[BigJulie;154834]It does say "God is Spirit"---but with that, we learn this--Jhn 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Just where do you thing we got the reference that God is Spirit.. the a is an addition to make the p***age flow better in English but that "a" is not in the original m****cripts.. I thought you knew that..


How do you worship someone in spirit? Does that mean that you must separate your spirit from your body to worship God? Or does this verse speak to the fact that we know God by His Spirit and we worship Him by our spirit?

The p***ge means just what it says.. that God is Spirit.. The Holy Spirit though the Apostle Paul teaches is that Jesus is the physical image of the INVISIBLE GOD.. God is a spiritual Person and has no physical attributes at all..


So, then do we ignore that Christ has a body of flesh and bones AFTER He was resurrected? Do we ignore His teachings that we learn of the Father by Him? Do we believe that God the Father is something so entirely different than Jesus Christ? Or do we accept that God has a body because Jesus Christ has a body?


We believe that the Father and the Son are the same Being. That They are the same power, the same essence. The Bible teaches that there is one God and before Him there was no god formed and there will be none after Him.. According to mormonism and I would think according to you Jesus became a God sometime after the Father was already God.. According to God's word that could never take place.. NOTHING and NO ONE coud become a God after God was already God (Isaiah 43:10). One more place where mormonism denies the Bible..


As I noted earlier, it is amazing to me the lengths some go to show the differences between the Father and the Son, especially in light of your understanding that they are one.

They are not different.. They are the same God.. They exist in each other along with the Holy Spirit.. No one here is saying that they are different Gods except mormons.. The Christian here hold that jesus is in the Father and the Father in Him.. And the Holy Spirit in both.. Yes They are separate Persons who are one God. But they are NOT THREE SEPARATE GODS.. IHS jim

[James Banta]

[BigJulie;154825]Wow James--you are now trying to make your point using the D&C? Yes, what problem do you have with this verse?

Though you are free to believe that your God gives and revokes commandment at his whim. The God of the Bible commandments are eternal, never to be revoked.. Your God gave a commandment to build a temple and pointed to the very site.. That site is the temple lot in Far West Missouri. Is it there or did the mormon God say that He could defeat the mods of Missouri and take back the command? Look at D&C 124:49.. The Lord protected the Children of Israel as they escaped from Egypt against the sure death the Egyptians were ready to bring on them, but He couldn't find a way to protect the LDS from their enemies to complete the building he had commanded them to built.. WEAK GOOD FOR NOTHING GOD YOU MORMONS HAVE..


At this point there are over 100 temples built.
Yup, which is why there are over 100 temples now.

Yes, it is being built even as we speak--and will continue.


IT is not being built! There isn't even any excavation being done on the lot.. In fact the property doesn't even belong to the LDS church. For you to say that a temple being built is Independence and that fulfills this prophecy is like saying that the sun came up this morning so that fulfills the prophecy of the return of the Son of God.. After all Sun, and Son sound the same.. IT ISN'T in the time Smith prophesied (He said when it would be completed, "For verily this generation shall not all p*** away until an house shall be built unto the Lord, and a cloud shall rest upon it, which cloud shall be even the glory of the Lord, which shall fill the house.") Those that gathered in Far West have long been dead, even the new born babies that were present there have long been dead of OLD AGE... Smith Prophecy of a temple in Far West FAILED. It was a clearly a false prophecy making Smith a false prophet!


As noted, the Holy Ghost bears witness to us of the scriptures--through the Holy Ghost, there is no need of contention as to what the scriptures mean.

While the Holy Spirit does testify of Jesus, it was Jesus that testified of His word. It was Jesus that told the Apostles that the Holy Spirit would bring all He said to their remembrance.. It is the Holy Spirit that teaches us His word (1 Corinthians 2:13), but if we refuse to seek Him we will never find Him.. He is found in the book containing His word.. We are told to study to show ourselves approved by God rightly dividing the word of truth (2 Tim 2:15).. You say you believe in obedience.. Why not go and do what He has commanded


Yes, Joseph Smith was 14 when he received his first revelation.

That depends on which of his wild tales you want to believed.. In some of his stories he said he was 16.. Do you know of the proverb that says that to be a good liar you must have a good memory?


Well, look at the word "our" image. I know that you know that God, as translated correctly from Hebrew actually means "gods"---not to hard to understand really.


Yes you could ignore all the rest of the scripture to have your meaning be the only true meaning.. Never mind that YHWH told Isaiah that there is no God beside Him. That He who knows all things don't know what you know.. He doesn't know of any other God (Isaiah 44:8).. It doesn't matter what you say.. God is the authority here NOT YOU.. When he said "I am God there is no other" (Isaiah 46:9), he know, and He is trustworthy.. You don't know, you are not trustworthy. That shows by your lack of faith in what He has told us of His nature by the prophet. Or is it that Isaiah is am older prophet and what a newer prophet teaches in God's new truth? Because we all know that God changes right? (Mal 3:6)..


Nope, because God is invisible to us. But obviously, for instance, Stephen saw Christ standing on the right hand of God.
But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God.

I have never said here or anywhere that The Father and the Son are the same person.. Has any man seen the invisible God, NO.. What did Steven see? He saw what a man can see of God. The ***urance that He was there.. Even when He was dying there is no way to see the invisible.. He saw God's glory and he saw Jesus. It never teaches in that p***age that He saw God.. Read it again, Steven saw God's glory, He saw Jesus, and Jesus was on the right hand of God.. Just where in that does it say he saw God?


You know, I always find it fascinating the lengths some go to explain that God the Father is NOT like Jesus Christ, all the while contending that they are One.

Jesus said that when you have seen Him you have seen the Father. That He and the Father are one.. So what am I saying here? I am saying that Jesus the Child born unto us is the Mighty God, The Everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.. Who is the Father? He is the Mighty God, The Everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.. Other than the fact that the Father is physically invisible He and Jesus are the same Being.. That is less different than mormonism teaches them to be.. Mormonism teaches that they are two separate gods..


But as I noted James---we will disagree---which is why ALL need the witness of the Holy Ghost.

It was the Holy Spirit that moved men to record His dealing with mankind. he is the same God always.. He is not going to teach that He is a Spirit in one text and turn around and say it has a body of flesh and bone as tangible as man in another.. To believe what a man teaches instead of what God has clearly stated shows a lack of faith in and knowledge of God. Remember Jesus (GOD) said that heaven and earth would die before he allowed His word to die.. If the Bible has been corrupted and we can't look to those errors and say these aren't part of the word then the Bible is dead, totally worthless in it message.. But Jesus (God) is powerful and has protected His word from the world. Therefore His word, the message He gave us originally has survived and is still there in the words of the Bible.. Remember He promised to always be with us even to the end of the world.


Jhn 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

yes this is why we know the Bible is the word of God.. But Christian believe that the Holy Spirit is God.. Mormons, well not so much...


Why do you think Christ taught that the Holy Ghost will teach us ALL things---and have us remember what he said? (Which was written down.) Why doesn't Christ tell us that we can learn all from the scriptures?

YOU REMEMBER ALL THAT JESUS TAUGHT? No dear,you have the opportunity to read what the Holy Spirit brought to the world though the memories of the disciples. I have showed you that within the scriptures we have the knowledge of Jesus (God), and of His salvation.. If you need wisdom for that you can understand these things (James 1:5) by all means pray for it.. If you want knowledge STUDY (2 Timothy 2:15).. IHS jim

[BigJulie]

Just where do you thing we got the reference that God is Spirit.. the a is an addition to make the p***age flow better in English but that "a" is not in the original m****cripts.. I thought you knew that..



The p***ge means just what it says.. that God is Spirit.. The Holy Spirit though the Apostle Paul teaches is that Jesus is the physical image of the INVISIBLE GOD.. God is a spiritual Person and has no physical attributes at all.. Jesus Christ is proof that your beliefs about this is not correct. Jesus Christ came and showed the disciples that He has a resurrected body. If you believe that God is one with Christ, than you must accept, that at least in some form, God has a body. Now the question is---do you believe that Christ is the express image of the Father or not? As I said, being Spirit does not mean you have no body--just as you have both.



We believe that the Father and the Son are the same Being. That They are the same power, the same essence. The Bible teaches that there is one God and before Him there was no god formed and there will be none after Him.. According to mormonism and I would think according to you Jesus became a God sometime after the Father was already God.. According to God's word that could never take place.. NOTHING and NO ONE coud become a God after God was already God (Isaiah 43:10). One more place where mormonism denies the Bible.. Umm, nope, not according to Mormonism. As you know, Mormons understand that Jesus Christ was part of the Godhead prior to the beginning of the earth. That said...if you believe the Father and the Son "are the same Being"---then you also accept that God has a body.


They are not different.. They are the same God.. They exist in each other along with the Holy Spirit.. No one here is saying that they are different Gods except mormons.. The Christian here hold that jesus is in the Father and the Father in Him.. And the Holy Spirit in both.. Yes They are separate Persons who are one God. But they are NOT THREE SEPARATE GODS.. IHS jim No, you are saying that they are different--in that Christ has a body and God the Father doesn't. You say that God is Spirit ONLY--and yet you state that Christ exists "along with" God the Father. Is your position that Christ has a resurrected body, but God the Father does not?---If you state that they are the same being--then you must admit, to you, your God has a body as part of that being is Jesus Christ who has a body.

[BigJulie]

Yes you could ignore all the rest of the scripture to have your meaning be the only true meaning.. Never mind that YHWH told Isaiah that there is no God beside Him. That He who knows all things don't know what you know.. He doesn't know of any other God (Isaiah 44:8).. It doesn't matter what you say.. God is the authority here NOT YOU.. When he said "I am God there is no other" (Isaiah 46:9), he know, and He is trustworthy..

It is plain that Isaiah spoke in poetic language to help us understand the majesty of God. But unlike you, I do not take the concrete writings of Moses and then ***ume that they are now only metaphorical and then take the metaphorical writings of Isaiah and try to make them concrete. It is obvious to me which one is which.

[Billyray]

It is plain that Isaiah spoke in poetic language to help us understand the majesty of God.
So your explanation is that these sections of scripture are false as written?

[Billyray]

No, you are saying that they are different--in that Christ has a body and God the Father doesn't.
BigJ would you say that the mormon concept of god is consistent with what the Bible teaches or are these ideas derived from extra Biblical sources?

[BigJulie]

So your explanation is that these sections of scripture are false as written?

No, just poetic as written. Or do you take something like this concretely as well:


Isa 22:22 And the key of the house of David will I lay upon his shoulder; so he shall open, and none shall shut; and he shall shut, and none shall open.

Do you think this means that David has a house and he has a key to that house and he stuck that key on his shoulder, literally? Or do you think this is metaphorical so we can understand something grander?

[Billyray]

No, just poetic as written.
But your viewpoint conflicts what what is written. Right?

Are the verses correct or incorrect as written?

[Billyray]

No, just poetic as written. Or do you take something like this concretely as well:


Isa 22:22 And the key of the house of David will I lay upon his shoulder; so he shall open, and none shall shut; and he shall shut, and none shall open.

Do you think this means that David has a house and he has a key to that house and he stuck that key on his shoulder, literally? Or do you think this is metaphorical so we can understand something grander?
In order for your example to work--in order to help bolster your position on the other verses that we were discussing--I would have to take an opposing view of what is being said in the verses you quoted--JUST like you are doing with the verses that we have been discussing.

For example

Isa 22:22 And the key of the house of David will I lay upon his shoulder;

would therefore become

Isa 22:22 And the key of the house of David will I (NOT) lay upon his shoulder;

[BigJulie]

But your viewpoint conflicts what what is written. Right?

Are the verses correct or incorrect as written?

Not at all. Do you believe your viewpoint conflicts with what is written if you believe that David has a house and he has a key to that house and he takes that key and puts it on his shoulder, literally? Or do you think---wow, the person really doesn't get the metaphor?

[BigJulie]

In order for your example to work--in order to help bolster your position on the other verses that we were discussing--I would have to take an opposing view of what is being said in the verses you quoted--JUST like you are doing with the verses that we have been discussing.

For example

Isa 22:22 And the key of the house of David will I lay upon his shoulder;

would therefore become

Isa 22:22 And the key of the house of David will I (NOT) lay upon his shoulder;

Not at all....---do you believe this is a literal house and a literal key?

The opposing view regarding the verse you mentioned is that to Israel, there is another god that can save them...which there isn't. But if you don't understand the metaphor, you would miss that meaning.

I am just curious if you understand the metaphor regarding David's house. What does it mean to you? Just out of curiosity, I am wondering if you can understand it, if you take Isaiah so literally.

[Billyray]

Not at all....

Sure that is exactly what you have done. In the other verses you have changed the meaning of the verse to mean the complete opposite of what is clearly written and you are trying to justify this change by saying that it is "poetic" etc. Language can be literal or figurative and people use both everyday of the week and most have no difficulty understanding the difference. But you have a verse that does not agree with your extra Biblical viewpoint so you have to make up some kind of excuse to justify changing the meaning of it. Am I right?

[Billyray]

Not at all....---do you believe this is a literal house and a literal key?


No I don't believe that this is a literal house or a literal key nor do I think any other Christian on this board. As I said above we all use literal and figurative language daily and for despite this fact we are able to understand the difference between the two. Yet you try to justify your position to change the meaning of the scriptures and this is the ploy that you are attempting to use to do so.

[BigJulie]

Sure that is exactly what you have done. In the other verses you have changed the meaning of the verse to mean the complete opposite and justifying this by saying that it is poetic. Language can be literal or figurative and people everyday use both and most have no difficulty understanding the difference. But you have a verse that does not agree with your extra Biblical viewpoint so you have to make up some kind of excuse to justify changing the meaning of it. Am I right?

No, as usual, you are wrong. Isaiah speaks poetically. Moses speaks concretely. So, when Moses wrote that God created us in His likeness and image and that Adam's son was in his likeness and image--that is pretty direct.

But, Billyray, the struggle I have conversing with you is that you literally will cut and paste a piece out of my reply (even out of the sentence) and respond as if no explanation or further understanding can be had or was given.

And I agree--most have no difficulty understanding the difference between literal and figurative language. This makes me wonder why you would take a literal writer such as Moses and make "likeness and image" figurative and then take a figurative writer such as Isaiah and make his writings literal...and then argue with me that I have "extra Biblical" viewpoints...when we are only discussing what is actually written in the Bible and by whom. Everything we are discussing can be taken straight from the Bible and in context of the Bible.

I guess I can just ask the reader---how easy it is to read Genesis verses Isaiah? Which one uses figurative and poetic language? Who writes fairly concretely? We will let them decide.

[Billyray]

No, as usual, you are wrong. Isaiah speaks poetically. Moses speaks concretely. So, when Moses wrote that God created us in His likeness and image and that Adam's son was in his likeness and image--that is pretty direct.

Fair enough, let's go back to Moses and finish what we were talking about before since you say that what Moses wrote was "concrete".



Gen 1:26-27 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: .....So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.


To me, it is simple. God is the God of gods---as such, when he said our--he was speaking to those with him and included himself. Those would be those "great and noble ones" that were there in the pre-existence with him. Jesus Christ was there, of course as part of the Godhead.

Can you be more specific? So far you have stated that the gods spoken about in this verse are: 1. God the Father 2. Jesus Christ. Who are the other gods that you think were present? (I am asking because it is important when discussing this verse in context to your original use of this verse in support of mormonism).

[Billyray]

. . .No, as usual, you are wrong. Isaiah speaks poetically. Moses speaks concretely.. .
Isaiah 43
“You are my witnesses,” declares the Lord,
“and my servant whom I have chosen,
so that you may know and believe me
and understand that I am he.
Before me no god was formed,
nor will there be one after me. . ." declares the Lord,


Would you say that this quote from the Lord is poetic and inaccurate as written?

When you see a QUOTE followed by "declared the Lord", what does that mean to you?

[RealFakeHair]

Isaiah 43
“You are my witnesses,” declares the Lord,
“and my servant whom I have chosen,
so that you may know and believe me
and understand that I am he.
Before me no god was formed,
nor will there be one after me. . ." declares the Lord,


Would you say that this quote from the Lord is poetic and inaccurate as written?

When you see a QUOTE followed by "declared the Lord", what does that mean to you?
That is bout as plain as the nose on my face, and I got a pretty big nose too. However some can't see the forest for the nose.

[Billyray]

And I agree--most have no difficulty understanding the difference between literal and figurative language.

And yet you seem to be having trouble with this in BOTH Genesis and Isaiah. Why is that BigJ? Are you trying to cover up the false teachings of Mormonism? That is the only reasonable explanation. Unless of course you are having problems with literal and figurative language.

[Phoenix]

No, as usual, you are wrong. Isaiah speaks poetically. Moses speaks concretely. So, when Moses wrote that God created us in His likeness and image and that Adam's son was in his likeness and image--that is pretty direct.

But, Billyray, the struggle I have conversing with you is that you literally will cut and paste a piece out of my reply (even out of the sentence) and respond as if no explanation or further understanding can be had or was given.

And I agree--most have no difficulty understanding the difference between literal and figurative language. This makes me wonder why you would take a literal writer such as Moses and make "likeness and image" figurative and then take a figurative writer such as Isaiah and make his writings literal...and then argue with me that I have "extra Biblical" viewpoints...when we are only discussing what is actually written in the Bible and by whom. Everything we are discussing can be taken straight from the Bible and in context of the Bible.

I guess I can just ask the reader---how easy it is to read Genesis verses Isaiah? Which one uses figurative and poetic language? Who writes fairly concretely? We will let them decide.

To me, your post makes very good sense. You did a good *** of explaining.

[BigJulie]

To me, your post makes very good sense. You did a good *** of explaining.

Thanks Phoenix :)

[BigJulie]

Isaiah 43
“You are my witnesses,” declares the Lord,
“and my servant whom I have chosen,
so that you may know and believe me
and understand that I am he.
Before me no god was formed,
nor will there be one after me. . ." declares the Lord,


Would you say that this quote from the Lord is poetic and inaccurate as written?

When you see a QUOTE followed by "declared the Lord", what does that mean to you?

Okay, Billyray---I often find that if I go back and look at the real scripture--I can see why you put a "..." there.

Let's look at the whole verse:

Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.

So, who do you think this verse is speaking of? Is it God the Father (without a body to you) or is it Jesus Christ who came down in a body and died and was resurrected and was exalted and stands at the right hand of God?

Mar 16:19 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.

Just for any readers out there...I do not believe that God the Father and Jesus Christ are one "being"---I believe that they are one in heart and purpose (and that Jesus Christ is part of the Godhead and has been from the beginning)--But God is "one" with Christ, just as God asks us to be one with Him and with each other.----but the scriptures clearly teach that Christ was His own person. Otherwise, there would be no reason to submit His own will to that of His Fathers.

[RealFakeHair]

god had feathers and wings according to the bible

[BigJulie]

god had feathers and wings according to the bible


Psalms 91
"He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty.

I will say of the LORD, He is my refuge and my fortress: my God; in him will I trust.

Surely he shall deliver thee from the snare of the fowler, and from the noisome pestilence.

He shall cover thee with his feathers, and under his wings shalt thou trust: his truth shall be thy shield and buckler."

Once again, we can see that the Psalms of David are written in poetic language and are figurative in nature. We can either believe that God has feathers and wings---or we can recognize the type of speech this is. Yet, God in His infinite love sent His Son, and rather than be confused, we can know for a surety what God is like because His Son came and lived here on earth and told us that He is the express image of the Father.

[RealFakeHair]

So God is figurative a Spirit. I suppose the Holy Ghost is figurative a person of flesh and bone?

[BigJulie]

So God is figurative a Spirit. I suppose the Holy Ghost is figurative a person of flesh and bone?

No, It is John who teaches us that God is Spirit in the New Testament. God is a Spirit---but, so are you and me. The basis of who you are is your spirit---not your body. But that does not exclude you from having a body--just as it doesn't exclude God. Christ taught that we get to know God via His Spirit through our spirit.

If I said that you are a brunette, does that exclude you from having ears or eyes or legs or a spirit?