As of late the mormons of the forum:

[James Banta]

As of late the mormons of the forum seem to be unable or unwilling to give an answer to EVERYONE who asks them for the hope within them..

1 Peter 3:15-16
But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:
Having a good conscience; that, whereas they speak evil of you, as of evildoers, they may be ashamed that falsely accuse your good conversation in Christ.
It seems that they aren't ready to give answers while we the Christians of Walter Martin are still here ready to obey this command of God the Holy Spirit given to us through the Apostle Peter.. Jesus is our hope.. A hope, a faith we can't generate in ourselves but is THE gift of God to us. Shown, by testified though and proven to our hearts that Jesus is God.. A witness I proudly stand in.. Not because some man told me but God in His word taught my heart and made me His.. This is proof that they are trusting in themselves and the message of a man.. This is proof that we are trusting in the message of the LORD GOD.. IHS jim

[Snow Patrol]

As of late the mormons of the forum seem to be unable or unwilling to give an answer to EVERYONE who asks them for the hope within them...

It seems that they aren't ready to give answers while we the Christians of Walter Martin are still here ready to obey this command of God the Holy Spirit given to us through the Apostle Peter.. Jesus is our hope.. A hope, a faith we can't generate in ourselves but is THE gift of God to us. Shown, by testified though and proven to our hearts that Jesus is God.. A witness I proudly stand in.. Not because some man told me but God in His word taught my heart and made me His.. This is proof that they are trusting in themselves and the message of a man.. This is proof that we are trusting in the message of the LORD GOD.. IHS jim


Jim, I find your post a little curious. Did you not post this today? "Attack what I say.. Attack my logic in the interpretation but lay off the personally attacks please.. " How is your post NOT in contridiction to what you said earlier? Granted, you didn't name anyone individually, but that is just splitting hairs. You made the individual posters the subject rather than the religion. After reading what you wrote earlier, in my opinion that is very hypocritical of you to write. My guess is that you won't recognize it, but other sure will.

[Sir]

Jim, I find your post a little curious. Did you not post this today? "Attack what I say.. Attack my logic in the interpretation but lay off the personally attacks please.. " How is your post NOT in contridiction to what you said earlier? Granted, you didn't name anyone individually, but that is just splitting hairs. You made the individual posters the subject rather than the religion. After reading what you wrote earlier, in my opinion that is very hypocritical of you to write. My guess is that you won't recognize it, but other sure will.

Of course we all see it.

But James seems to confuse LDS answering and explaining every detail of our belief to those who already outright reject it and have zero interest in trying to understand it with sharing the hope that is within us.

Sharing the hope of Jesus in me does not mean I am required to provide as many prooftexts as I can to hopefully change the mind/ view of someone who already believes against everything LDS.

Although, if we take James' words to their logical conclusions, then the hope that lies in the critics of Mormonism is not really majorly focused on Jesus. Their hope is in trying to destroy the LDS with whatever argument du jour they have discovered recently.

[TheSword99]

Jim, I find your post a little curious. Did you not post this today? "Attack what I say.. Attack my logic in the interpretation but lay off the personally attacks please.. " How is your post NOT in contridiction to what you said earlier? Granted, you didn't name anyone individually, but that is just splitting hairs. You made the individual posters the subject rather than the religion. After reading what you wrote earlier, in my opinion that is very hypocritical of you to write. My guess is that you won't recognize it, but other sure will.


This is what has been going on. The lds on here still will not discuss Mormonism. Still will not give direct, straight forward answers. Instead, the habit has been to pick on the words in our posts and then pick on us. This is really getting childish and tedious.

Christ commanded we carry out the Great Commission. He didn't ask or say it was optional, but that all true believers in Him must take His Gospel to our neighborhood and to the world.. I believe the reason the lds do not carry out this command is because you believe in universal salavtion. That all men will be in some heaven in the hereafter. But God's word does not teach this. Hell is real and it is for those who believe in a false gospel or no gospel. Those who reject the one true Christ who is God, always was and always will be. The lds does not understand the urgency of getting people saved in these last days. There will be no 2nd chances after we die. God's word says Its appointed once for man to die, then what? JUDGMENT!

Luke 16 tells us our fate is sealed at death. That is why James and I are on here everyday almost. Because the Gospel of Jesus Christ (and there is only ONE Gospel), must be preached. Satan has lulled millions into a kind of complacency, a false sense of security that we all are going to some level of heaven. But satan is a liar and the father of lies. Hell is a real place and its not just for satan and the son of perdition. Its for those who preach a different Christ, as well as those who reject Him. Jesus said unless you are spiritually born again, you will die in your sins. The lds has yet to deal with his sins. By grace we are saved and not of works. The lds is still working and striving and trying to be perfect in obedience to many laws, commandments and ordinances, but you are spinning your wheels as perfect obedience can't be done. Therefore, the lds knows nothing about the forgiveness of Christ.

[TheSword99]

Of course we all see it.

But James seems to confuse LDS answering and explaining every detail of our belief to those who already outright reject it and have zero interest in trying to understand it with sharing the hope that is within us.

Sharing the hope of Jesus in me does not mean I am required to provide as many prooftexts as I can to hopefully change the mind/ view of someone who already believes against everything LDS.

Although, if we take James' words to their logical conclusions, then the hope that lies in the critics of Mormonism is not really majorly focused on Jesus. Their hope is in trying to destroy the LDS with whatever argument du jour they have discovered recently.

In being Christ's representatives on earth, we must be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks. It is not true that we don't have an interest in the lds and what he believes and why he believes it. Its when these beliefs do not line up with God's word that forces us to question those beliefs. What you and the other lds view as criticism on our part is actually our holding you accountable to teaching truth. Where is Truth? Jesus said: "Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is Truth." What was He referring to? God and His Word, God's very Oracles, written down and preserved just as He promised, in order that men not go astray and believe in a false gospel.

What is the hope of the lds? The hope of Jesus in him, or the hope of becoming god? Was this not also the desire of satan, the liar and father of lies?

[James Banta]

Jim, I find your post a little curious. Did you not post this today? "Attack what I say.. Attack my logic in the interpretation but lay off the personally attacks please.. " How is your post NOT in contridiction to what you said earlier? Granted, you didn't name anyone individually, but that is just splitting hairs. You made the individual posters the subject rather than the religion. After reading what you wrote earlier, in my opinion that is very hypocritical of you to write. My guess is that you won't recognize it, but other sure will.

Many times the LDS posters here seem to need some encouragement to get involved in the threads.. That what I was doing.. Trying to get LDS posters to not be so dismissive of real issues in discussion of the topics on the channel.. I hope you will be around and show one and all the Biblical teachings found in mormonism, or at least try to show them..

I pointed at on individual here on this channel.. If you thought I did maybe that in a conviction for the way you have been thinking about posting here.. All I saw was posts from Christians at near 3 or 4 to one those of the LDS posters.. I hope you are back.. You really do add a lot to the conversation and purpose of the forum.. IHS jim

[Sir]

Many times the LDS posters here seem to need some encouragement to get involved in the threads.. That what I was doing.. Trying to get LDS posters to not be so dismissive of real issues in discussion of the topics on the channel.. I hope you will be around and show one and all the Biblical teachings found in mormonism, or at least try to show them..

I pointed at on individual here on this channel.. If you thought I did maybe that in a conviction for the way you have been thinking about posting here.. All I saw was posts from Christians at near 3 or 4 to one those of the LDS posters.. I hope you are back.. You really do add a lot to the conversation and purpose of the forum.. IHS jim

What is the ratio of active LDS posters here with active non-LDS posters here?

[James Banta]

Of course we all see it.

But James seems to confuse LDS answering and explaining every detail of our belief to those who already outright reject it and have zero interest in trying to understand it with sharing the hope that is within us.

Sharing the hope of Jesus in me does not mean I am required to provide as many prooftexts as I can to hopefully change the mind/ view of someone who already believes against everything LDS.

Although, if we take James' words to their logical conclusions, then the hope that lies in the critics of Mormonism is not really majorly focused on Jesus. Their hope is in trying to destroy the LDS with whatever argument du jour they have discovered recently.

Let me say a word of agreement to an LDS apostle in this matter:

Convince us of our errors of doctrine, if we have any, by reason, by logical arguments, or by the word of God, and we will be ever grateful for the information, and you will ever have the pleasing reflection that you have been instruments in the hands of God of redeeming your fellow beings from the darkness which you may see enveloping their minds" (The Seer, pp. 15-16).

Have you tried to do this? I haven't seen any reason, logical arguments, or by a overwhelming pronouncement of the word of God that shows any of us here that mormonism is God's one true church..

On the other hand we have shown you what the priesthood really is, what the temple was for. We have shown you that even Abraham was saved by faith. We have proved that salvation come to mankind by the grace of God through faith in Jesus and that works no matter how good can't do the ***.. That without faith is is impossible to please Him (Heb 11:6).. That works are the sign over our heads to those around us that we are what we say we are, children of the Most High..

It is the Christian here that accept the Church as it was set up by Jesus. We haven't gone back in and tried to recreate what he has already accomplished.. He said that we Him Children should go into all nations, teach and baptize in His name and He would be with us always, even to the end of the world.. We trust His word and His power to keep his promises.. The Church has never stopped teaching and preaching Jesus, Proclaiming His salvation. He has also kept His promise and has never left us as Smith insisted He had.. Over the years you have seen evidence after evidence that God has worked an strove with man all though the ages since He was taken to take His place at the Right hand of the Father. His grace has always been here. Jesus didn't die for just those few that believed on Him but by His own word He made his High Priest prayer for all who would believe in Him.

John 17:20
Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word

If you want to talk about the context in more depth I am willing.. I can show you how we are one with each other and with Him as He is one with the Father..

In short I have shown that Jesus is God.. That there is One God.. That He is all the God there is or ever can be.. I have shown you there things by the word of God and all you have have countered with are the words of Joseph Smith.. Since I am willing to have you show the truth of Mormonism as Pratt asked to be shown the truth of the Christian Church that was so hated by Smith I would think you would be clammering to show all the Biblical truth that mormonism contains.. So far all you have are twisted bits and pieces of Biblical doctrine. Heck you won't even accept the real interpretation given right in the p***age for two Biblical p***ages

Tell me which of the men can read the sealed book just from what the Bible says about them?

Isaiah 29:11-12
And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I cannot; for it is sealed:
And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned.
The answer... Neither one!!!
And the sticks of Ezekiel 37 are the two nation Israel divided into. God says He will again make them ONE nation and not two.. That is God's interpretation. It isn't about books it's about what God said it's about two nations becoming one..

This is how mormonism has treated the science of hermeneutics.. Just make up what you want a p***age to say and pronounce it in God's name and it is so.. It isn't so if it's wrong no matter who says it.. This is why the Christian here have worked so hard to show that Joseph Smith is not a prophet but rather a conman and a liar. So that you would have reason to trust God and reject error.. In doing this you see us as holding personal hatred for mormons.. That just isn't so.. There are other things I enjoy doing I don't have to come here and tell you these things, yet that is what God has called me to do.. Nothing I say here is directed at any one of the LDS people on this site. It is directed at the lies and errors that one man did bring into the world and through lust and greed let them grow and continue until it became the soul destroying teaching that Mormonism is today..

I stand here telling you about the One true God.. That Being who created ALL things. Who is from everlasting to everlasting the same unchanging God.. In Him and only in Him is there salvation. It is His gift to us through His grace and is not accessible by good works or ordinance completion. Not one of us who accept this gift can ever say it was because I was Good and faithful. For goodness and fidelity is not in us. We are to be measured not by the good or bad that we have done but alongside His righteousness.. Not one of us will p*** that test by our good works and righteousnesses.. We must have His righteousness or else we will been seen as fallen short of the basic requirement for salvation... PERFECTION... IHS jim

[James Banta]

What is the ratio of active LDS posters here with active non-LDS posters here?

No idea... I do see that as The Sword has said, the mormons here seem to be more wanting to side track threads based on wording of a post than address the real issues.. Right here I am thinking of two dates one Dec 7, 1941 and the other Sept 1, 1939.. IT DIDN'T MATTER.. It was being pointed out that for one to be considered in a position they must meet the criteria.. Instead it was twisted into a history debate.. To be a veteran of WW2 a person had to be a person under arms in that war.. To be God a Person must hold that position from everlasting to everlasting. They must be the creator of all things including the spirits of all mankind.. If a being doesn't meet these qualifications they can't be the One True GOD..

But was that what was discussed by the Mormons here on Walter Martin? No.. The date is all they cared about.. IHS jim

[Sir]

No idea... I do see that as The Sword has said, the mormons here seem to be more wanting to side track threads based on wording of a post than address the real issues.. Right here I am thinking of two dates one Dec 7, 1941 and the other Sept 1, 1939.. IT DIDN'T MATTER.. It was being pointed out that for one to be considered in a position they must meet the criteria.. Instead it was twisted into a history debate.. To be a veteran of WW2 a person had to be a person under arms in that war.. To be God a Person must hold that position from everlasting to everlasting. They must be the creator of all things including the spirits of all mankind.. If a being doesn't meet these qualifications they can't be the One True GOD..

But was that what was discussed by the Mormons here on Walter Martin? No.. The date is all they cared about.. IHS jim

Maybe the LDS use ****ogies to make their point, but some of you can't read into the ****ogy so it appears to be an off-topic discussion in your eyes.

Plus, if you ask the same people the same questions enough times, how many times do you think they will give the same answers before they start to get bored and actually turn your question into something more meaningful than the worn-out attck/ defense that has gone on for 180 years?

[ErikErik]

What is the ratio of active LDS posters here with active non-LDS posters here?

Seems the lds have fled especially when the heat is on. Novato always abandons the threads he starts very early on. Pa Pa did the same thing and left for good. The other lds are banned.

[ErikErik]

Maybe the LDS use ****ogies to make their point, but some of you can't read into the ****ogy so it appears to be an off-topic discussion in your eyes.

Plus, if you ask the same people the same questions enough times, how many times do you think they will give the same answers before they start to get bored and actually turn your question into something more meaningful than the worn-out attck/ defense that has gone on for 180 years?

Human ****ogies? That is so natural man. The natural man cannot understand the things of God or His Word because they are spiritually discerned.

[Sir]

Seems the lds have fled especially when the heat is on. Novato always abandons the threads he starts very early on. Pa Pa did the same thing and left for good. The other lds are banned.

So tell us, how many here are LDS and how many are not.

[Sir]

Human ****ogies? That is so natural man. The natural man cannot understand the things of God or His Word because they are spiritually discerned.

Huh? ****ogies/ parables are used as a way of using real-world scenerios to teach spiritual principles.

Jesus did it a lot. I guess he was "so a natural man", right? ;)

[James Banta]

Maybe the LDS use ****ogies to make their point, but some of you can't read into the ****ogy so it appears to be an off-topic discussion in your eyes.

Plus, if you ask the same people the same questions enough times, how many times do you think they will give the same answers before they start to get bored and actually turn your question into something more meaningful than the worn-out attck/ defense that has gone on for 180 years?

You still hold the same false doctrines that Smith invented 180 years ago.. God was once a man and lived on an earth the same as Jesus did.. Are our questions about his false teachings the problem or is it your denials that mormonism teaches these old worn-out blasphemies? IHS jim

[James Banta]

Huh? ****ogies/ parables are used as a way of using real-world scenerios to teach spiritual principles.

Jesus did it a lot. I guess he was "so a natural man", right? ;)

Yes and when I used one the LDS here found fault with the date I used instead of the message of the ****ogy.. Anything that could be thought of to side track the teaching rather than to face it and deal with it.. IHS jim

[Russianwolfe]

Yes and when I used one the LDS here found fault with the date I used instead of the message of the ****ogy.. Anything that could be thought of to side track the teaching rather than to face it and deal with it.. IHS jim

If the facts of your ****ogy are wrong, does your ****ogy have a meaning that addresses the point you are trying to make?

You criticize Joseph Smith for getting dates wrong and ignore the message of the First Vision. This is the same thing you are complaining about and yet you do it as well.

Marvin

[James Banta]

If the facts of your ****ogy are wrong, does your ****ogy have a meaning that addresses the point you are trying to make?

You criticize Joseph Smith for getting dates wrong and ignore the message of the First Vision. This is the same thing you are complaining about and yet you do it as well.

Marvin

What is wrong with the date that the USA entered WW2? All US WW2 veterans were in the US Military between Dec 7, 1941 and Sept 1945? Just because you didn't understand didn't make me wrong.. This was a man made event not a visitation from God on earth.. Still I am aware of the date the day of the week and the local time, 7:38 AM, when the Japanese planes first appeared over US air space in Hawaii..

That was the Day, Date, and time when the USA entered WW2.. I am an American that is the data I was using for when the first of US Military became eligible to be called veterans of that war.. As for the meaning of that ****ogy you seem to have no clue..

All you can do is say that I am a false teacher because you didn't understand my dates.. Smith on the other hand couldn't get the date settled in his mind when he said he first saw God.. Was he 14, 16, 18? The dates given in JSH in the PofGP don't match with events in the Palmyra area.. You MUST open up the whole New England area to find any support for his story.. Even the name of the ministers Smith said lead the "Religious Excitement" were not in the area when He said this was all happening.. My dates were correct. Smith's, even though he report of the greatest event the world had ever heard of was being given, were totally wrong.. He can't even identify the real year it all started.. Are you saying that a visitation from God with the message he had for man wasn't as important at the USA entering the second world war? Really? Knowing that you thinking that is more than I can understand.. IHS jim

[James Banta]

So tell us, how many here are LDS and how many are not.

I have counted 5.. So why is it that your witnesses have thinned so deeply. Is it that breaking of the rules which has seemed right to so many have gotten some banned? Or is it because you actually have no biblical defense for the unique doctrines that make up what mormonism is, I could be wrong but your numbers seem to be way down.. Who knows, if you put out an SOS on MADB maybe you can bring your numbers up again.. Maybe someone new would make sense, but then again if they are true followers of mormonism they won't.. IHS jim

[Sir]

I have counted 5.. So why is it that your witnesses have thinned so deeply. Is it that breaking of the rules which has seemed right to so many have gotten some banned?

Seems some have been banned. Has it seemed right to break the rules to them? I can't say. I don't suppose it is any different than any of the non-LDS here that have been banned at one time or another. Maybe the critics of Mormonism like yourself do more of the running to the mods for redress of grievences than do the LDS. And they also pe***ion the mods to let their fellow LDS-critics come back from being banned if they can promise to be obedient to the rules. (That was you.) So I don't know if the LDS being banned means any more or less than the non-LDS being banned.


Or is it because you actually have no biblical defense for the unique doctrines that make up what mormonism is, I could be wrong but your numbers seem to be way down.. Who knows, if you put out an SOS on MADB maybe you can bring your numbers up again..

I don't know much about MADB. But I imagine most people don't really care too much about WM to come here.


Maybe someone new would make sense, but then again if they are true followers of mormonism they won't.. IHS jim

Nice attack on the members of Mormonism. Who knows, maybe that is why most LDS don't give this place much attention. They see the self-righteous critics of the church pontificate and claim that they are simply here to be a witness against Mormonism, not the mormon people. But then they go off and make broad disparaging statements against the actual people, and then expect to win them over to their 'jesus'. The hypocrisy probably just makes most LDS laugh and they realize that you obviously have nothing better to offer them based on the fruits of your beliefs.

[Novato]

Seems the lds have fled especially when the heat is on. Novato always abandons the threads he starts very early on. Pa Pa did the same thing and left for good. The other lds are banned.

Interesting deceptive comment. I have only started one thread on this board in my entire membership.

Typical EV deception. Why bother destroying a good story with the truth.

Novato

[ErikErik]

Huh? ****ogies/ parables are used as a way of using real-world scenerios to teach spiritual principles.

Jesus did it a lot. I guess he was "so a natural man", right? ;)

So you compare yourself with Christ who is God?! You who is finite, of limited knowledge! The Jews of Jesus' day understood that claiming such equality with God was blasphemous. So, are you God or even equal to Him?

Many, many times Jesus said: "It is written.. when he corrected the religious leaders. He said "It is written" when tempted by satan. He understood the power of the Holy Scriptures.

There's a different between using parables to teach a divine truth which Jesus did with his disciples, and one using human ****ogies that isn't what the Scripture actually teaches.

[ErikErik]

Interesting deceptive comment. I have only started one thread on this board in my entire membership.

Typical EV deception. Why bother destroying a good story with the truth.

Novato

Actually, you have started 12 threads on here. You abandon some threads early on. Leaving questions unanswered. Typical lds tactic.

[Sir]

So you compare yourself with Christ who is God?! You who is finite, of limited knowledge! The Jews of Jesus' day understood that claiming such equality with God was blasphemous. So, are you God or even equal to Him?

So, your wont to be critical has you now claiming that anytime someone who does something and expresses that Jesus did a similar thing, they are guilty of being blasphemous by comparing themselves to God? That's pretty funny!

So, if I lay on a bed and say Jesus did it too, I am guilty of blasphemy?
If I help the needy and say Jesus did it too, I am being blasphemous?

It looks like your so blinded by your hate for Mormonism that rational and logical thought has escaped you.

As a reminder, you said using human ****ogies means you are a natural man and an enemy to God, and the spirit isn't with you. I simply reminded you that Jesus used human ****ogies often in his teaching.

[ErikErik]

So, your wont to be critical has you now claiming that anytime someone who does something and expresses that Jesus did a similar thing, they are guilty of being blasphemous by comparing themselves to God? That's pretty funny!

So, if I lay on a bed and say Jesus did it too, I am guilty of blasphemy?
If I help the needy and say Jesus did it too, I am being blasphemous?

It looks like your so blinded by your hate for Mormonism that rational and logical thought has escaped you.

As a reminder, you said using human ****ogies means you are a natural man and an enemy to God, and the spirit isn't with you. I simply reminded you that Jesus used human ****ogies often in his teaching.

You will never understand the true deity of Jesus Christ.Your founder had the same desire as the devil. To be a god. You have blasphemed Christ by saying he is nothing more than your spirit brother and the brother of the devil. Mormonism is about men becoming gods. Men worshiping themselves. Even Michael the archangel told John not to worship him but worship God alone. It is blasphemy to compare yourself to God. Jesus Christ IS GOD! Always WAS God and you can say all this is funny but at the Judgment you won't be laughing. Satan was kicked out of heaven for having the very same desire you do. That of wanting to be god.

No, Sir, you will never be anything like Christ. God said we will be like the angels. That's way below God.

You will never understand that God is Creator and you are creature. God is infinite and you are finite. God is perfect and sinless, you are not. YOU WILL NEVER BECOME A GOD. PERIOD! End of discussion.

[Sir]

You will never understand the true deity of Jesus Christ.Your founder had the same desire as the devil. To be a god. You have blasphemed Christ by saying he is nothing more than your spirit brother and the brother of the devil. Mormonism is about men becoming gods. Men worshiping themselves. Even Michael the archangel told John not to worship him but worship God alone. It is blasphemy to compare yourself to God. Jesus Christ IS GOD! Always WAS God and you can say all this is funny but at the Judgment you won't be laughing. Satan was kicked out of heaven for having the very same desire you do. That of wanting to be god.

No, Sir, you will never be anything like Christ. God said we will be like the angels. That's way below God.

You will never understand that God is Creator and you are creature. God is infinite and you are finite. God is perfect and sinless, you are not. YOU WILL NEVER BECOME A GOD. PERIOD! End of discussion.

I see that to cover up your HUGE faulty logic you have decided to simply throw out a bunch of other attacks in hopes others will not see it.

I'm sorry you don't believe we will be anything like Christ.

[James Banta]

[Sir;73453]Seems some have been banned. Has it seemed right to break the rules to them? I can't say. I don't suppose it is any different than any of the non-LDS here that have been banned at one time or another. Maybe the critics of Mormonism like yourself do more of the running to the mods for redress of grievences than do the LDS. And they also pe***ion the mods to let their fellow LDS-critics come back from being banned if they can promise to be obedient to the rules. (That was you.) So I don't know if the LDS being banned means any more or less than the non-LDS being banned.

There have been times (not many) that I have asked if some LDS posters can come back.. I won't do that again because they proved they can't follow the rules.. Understand not all are insistent of having their own set of rules.. I think you do a good *** of staying within the rules.. I haven't made a report in months.. I think I am about the same as anyone who cares about this forum and doesn't want it to become a free for all of name calling ans lies..


Nice attack on the members of Mormonism. Who knows, maybe that is why most LDS don't give this place much attention. They see the self-righteous critics of the church pontificate and claim that they are simply here to be a witness against Mormonism, not the mormon people. But then they go off and make broad disparaging statements against the actual people, and then expect to win them over to their 'jesus'. The hypocrisy probably just makes most LDS laugh and they realize that you obviously have nothing better to offer them based on the fruits of your beliefs.

I was attacking mormons.. I was attacking their church.. I know you don't see a difference but one is an attack on non, even anti Biblical doctrines and the other would be on people.. Holding the unique doctrines of mormonism is blinding people to truth, the truth of Jesus, His Love, and mission of the redemption of mankind from sin. Instead mormonism has replaced His full forgiveness though grace with a cheep subs***ute. A grace that is earned though obedience to laws and ordinances.. How is that grace? You do know what grace is don't you? The unmerited favor of one Person for another.. Because of the sin within us we are incapable of living for God.. We must be recreated, given a whole new nature to accomplish that commandment.. And then as long as we walk in these bodies of death sin continues to rule over our flesh. We are righteous only in and through Jesus.. That that you call self righteousness? WE are the one trying to establish our righteousness as the standard for life.. That is done in mormonism and it's people fail again and again to measure up.. Only those that have convinced them selves that they are "worthy" can survive in such a system.. And that "worthiness" is self righteousness.. This is taught by the LDS church as the one true way to God.. Christians in pointing out the failures of that system then are called self righteous by those who are actually attempting to build personal righteousness that would be acceptable to a Holy God.. That is self righteousness at it worst.. As for me I am a sinner (A TERRIBLE SINNER) saved by the grace of God though my faith in Jesus.. I pray that you find this ***urance. That your place with God in His kingdom becomes sure.. IHS jim

[Sir]

There have been times (not many) that I have asked if some LDS posters can come back.. I won't do that again because they proved they can't follow the rules.. Understand not all are insistent of having their own set of rules..

That is probably for a moderator to decide. I don't think anybody follows board rules 100%, 100% of the time. No big deal, right?


I think I am about the same as anyone who cares about this forum and doesn't want it to become a free for all of name calling ans lies.

I guess we shall see.




I was attacking mormons.. I was attacking their church.. I know you don't see a difference...

You're trying hard to rationalize your comment that, "Maybe someone new would make sense, but then again if they are true followers of mormonism they won't..."

Saying "someone" and "they" refers to people. And when you say that those people won't make sense if they are true followers of Mormonism you are indicting the people just as much as anything.

[James Banta]

You're trying hard to rationalize your comment that, "Maybe someone new would make sense, but then again if they are true followers of mormonism they won't..."

Saying "someone" and "they" refers to people. And when you say that those people won't make sense if they are true followers of Mormonism you are indicting the people just as much as anything.


Yes They most likely wouldn't... Why? because they are an evil and wicked people? No, because they have been taught and believed the lies first told by Joseph Smith and taught again and again down though the years by his followers.. It's the doctrine that warps their thoughts not because that are any worse or any better a people.. I stand by that as an attack on the religion not the members of it..

I have never claimed to be better than you. I never claimed that I was less of a valiant child of God because I deserted the LDS religion.. I never claimed that you were more valiant because you didn't.. If anything I have said I am not as good a person as most LDS people.. I would say you are most likely a better person than me.. I am a terrible sinner.. All confesses to God, all covered by the Blood of Jesus.. I am not better or even as good as you but I am forgiven and have become His child by His grace through Faith in Jesus.. As I see it if it wasn't for Jesus I wouldn't be worth the dirt under your shoes.. IHS jim

[Novato]

Actually, you have started 12 threads on here. You abandon some threads early on. Leaving questions unanswered. Typical lds tactic.

Erik:

My most humble apologies, I had forgotten these threads, most of which are over 12 months old. No excuse just an apology.

Novato

[ErikErik]

I see that to cover up your HUGE faulty logic you have decided to simply throw out a bunch of other attacks in hopes others will not see it.

I'm sorry you don't believe we will be anything like Christ.

We can have Christ-like attributes such as humility, meekness, etc., but we can't be God. Jesus is God. I'm sorry you can't see that. Jesus Christ, God the Son, along with God the Father and God the Spirit, created all things. They will reign in the New Jerusalem. We will be like the angels of God and we will be worshiping and praising God for ever. That is what God's word says.

It seems that mormons want to take credit for things that belong to God. God does not need our help with producing "spirit babies." Nor does God, who is not a human being, need to engage in sex. He is a spirit and must be worshiped in spirit. God needs only to speak the words and it shall be done. He said: "Let there be light, and there was light." He made Adam from the dust of the ground. God does not need to procreate the way we humans do. He is the Creator and you and I are his creature, or creation. God said in His word that he never changes. This means he was always God, and not a man. Let His Word speak to you.

Let me ask you something. Do you believe you will ever be able to create a universe from your own hands? Fill it with land, sky, water, etc etc? Control everything that happens on that universe? Do you think one day you can even create humans? How about a man out of the dust of the ground and then take his rib and make a woman?
Do you believe you will one day be omnipresent, omnipotent and omniscience?

God the Son can do all these things. So can you be exactly like Him?

[Pa Pa]

As of late the mormons of the forum seem to be unable or unwilling to give an answer to EVERYONE who asks them for the hope within them..

1 Peter 3:15-16
But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:
Having a good conscience; that, whereas they speak evil of you, as of evildoers, they may be ashamed that falsely accuse your good conversation in Christ.
It seems that they aren't ready to give answers while we the Christians of Walter Martin are still here ready to obey this command of God the Holy Spirit given to us through the Apostle Peter.. Jesus is our hope.. A hope, a faith we can't generate in ourselves but is THE gift of God to us. Shown, by testified though and proven to our hearts that Jesus is God.. A witness I proudly stand in.. Not because some man told me but God in His word taught my heart and made me His.. This is proof that they are trusting in themselves and the message of a man.. This is proof that we are trusting in the message of the LORD GOD.. IHS jim
Were have we failed? As far as answering "everyone" some us have ***s and lives and children, as so forth.

[James Banta]

Were have we failed? As far as answering "everyone" some us have ***s and lives and children, as so forth.

There are those of your church that say it is not worth their time in discussing the issues of the forum. If that is the way they feel they should leave.. I was responding to them not the time any one of you spends online.. I personally love to tell the story of Jesus and His love (Remember that one?). I don't mind repeating it, I don't mind lifting Him up even if the ones I lift Him before have already rejected Him and His gift of eternal life.. You, more than most of the mormons here, know what I am saying even if you have put your first love aside and gone after a God who is only a created being.. You should understand if not agree with what I am saying here.. Strange that you were in a church that taught the same message I give here now.. I don't even know what church it was or what if any denomination it was affiliated with. Yet the message is the same isn't? Strange? NOT

IHS jim

[Pa Pa]

There are those of your church that say it is not worth their time in discussing the issues of the forum. If that is the way they feel they should leave.. I was responding to them not the time any one of you spends online.. I personally love to tell the story of Jesus and His love (Remember that one?). I don't mind repeating it, I don't mind lifting Him up even if the ones I lift Him before have already rejected Him and His gift of eternal life.. You, more than most of the mormons here, know what I am saying even if you have put your first love aside and gone after a God who is only a created being.. You should understand if not agree with what I am saying here.. Strange that you were in a church that taught the same message I give here now.. I don't even know what church it was or what if any denomination it was affiliated with. Yet the message is the same isn't? Strange? NOT

IHS jim
All I did was graduate, from Kindergarten.

[James Banta]

All I did was graduate, from Kindergarten.


Great then you have three more years of edjumacation than I have :) IHS jim

[bert10]

On Salvation according to how it was taught in the early Churches is that all MEN SHALL RESURRECT Whether they be just or unjust. They shall go from mortality to immortality. They will be in the Spirit world with their resurrected bodies. After the resurrection this earth is no more...but made a new world. And the world and men shall be given victory over death diseases and afflictions forever.

This was the doctrine being taught to all men. And this is the free gift of God to all men.

What happens on judgment day which by the way...is not called faith day or grace day depends on our works. For in our works GOD will find the measure of our faith, love, forgiveness, anger, hate etc. That are contained in them.

Our works are written in the books of heaven...all of them whether they be our thoughts or words or actions. On judgment day the justice of GOD is not frustrated by faith nor by grace or any other abominable doctrines being taught today.

The only hope men have in order to have works acceptable to GOD is to learn to be led by the Spirit of GOD within them and do works by the Spirit for it is written...that if one is led by the Spirit one is not under the law.

Now you guys must understand this....the only thing that is not part of the heavens of GOD is the outer Darkness. This is world is in the heavens of GOD and even Hell for men are in it.

There is nothing that exist that is not in the heavens of GOD. We are at the lowest point of them. For all things spiritual are above us. And we cannot access anything of the Spiritual until we become the new creature. Even a Spiritual man.

Before one can teach their neighbors they ought to first learn to be taught of GOD so that they are not responsible of teachings falsehoods and abomination.


bert10


This is what has been going on. The lds on here still will not discuss Mormonism. Still will not give direct, straight forward answers. Instead, the habit has been to pick on the words in our posts and then pick on us. This is really getting childish and tedious.

Christ commanded we carry out the Great Commission. He didn't ask or say it was optional, but that all true believers in Him must take His Gospel to our neighborhood and to the world.. I believe the reason the lds do not carry out this command is because you believe in universal salavtion. That all men will be in some heaven in the hereafter. But God's word does not teach this. Hell is real and it is for those who believe in a false gospel or no gospel. Those who reject the one true Christ who is God, always was and always will be. The lds does not understand the urgency of getting people saved in these last days. There will be no 2nd chances after we die. God's word says Its appointed once for man to die, then what? JUDGMENT!

Luke 16 tells us our fate is sealed at death. That is why James and I are on here everyday almost. Because the Gospel of Jesus Christ (and there is only ONE Gospel), must be preached. Satan has lulled millions into a kind of complacency, a false sense of security that we all are going to some level of heaven. But satan is a liar and the father of lies. Hell is a real place and its not just for satan and the son of perdition. Its for those who preach a different Christ, as well as those who reject Him. Jesus said unless you are spiritually born again, you will die in your sins. The lds has yet to deal with his sins. By grace we are saved and not of works. The lds is still working and striving and trying to be perfect in obedience to many laws, commandments and ordinances, but you are spinning your wheels as perfect obedience can't be done. Therefore, the lds knows nothing about the forgiveness of Christ.

[TheSword99]

On Salvation according to how it was taught in the early Churches is that all MEN SHALL RESURRECT Whether they be just or unjust. They shall go from mortality to immortality. They will be in the Spirit world with their resurrected bodies. After the resurrection this earth is no more...but made a new world. And the world and men shall be given victory over death diseases and afflictions forever.


bert10


Yes all men will resurrect, whether just or unjust, but not all men will spend eternity with God. Jesus Christ at the Judgment will cast some out and they will follow satan into hell. The lds always omits what the Bible says about hell.. No its not just for satan and the son of perdition, but for all men who reject Christ, preach a "different" christ, or teach a different gospel. In Matthew 7 we read about people whom Christ cast out. He said He never knew these people who had prophesied, cast our demons and did many wonderful things in His name. Why would Christ cast out such people from heaven? Because they had depended on their "good works" to save them or to merit points in the afterlife. They did not depend on Christ alone for their eternal salvation.

Are you depending on Christ or on your own efforts to strive to always be obedient so that you can obtain some kind of godhood? Why do you even need Jesus if you think you can become a god of another planet for all eternity through your own efforts?

Hell is not here and now for some men. Its future. Nor is universal salvation taught in the Bible. Read Luke 16 again. Our fates ares sealed at death. The gulf is fixed. One will either be with God or separated from God forever. Jesus spoke more about hell than heaven.

[nrajeff]

Originally Posted by ErikErik:

You will never understand the true deity of Jesus Christ


That is a bold prophecy to be making, don't you think?

[ErikErik]

Originally Posted by ErikErik:

You will never understand the true deity of Jesus Christ


That is a bold prophecy to be making, don't you think?

Nope, not all. As long as you believe Christ was once a man like you and had to learn obedience to become God, then nope, you will never understand his true deity.

[nrajeff]

Nope, not all. As long as you believe Christ was once a man like you and had to learn obedience to become God, then nope, you will never understand his true deity.

--Well, at least I got you to add some qualifiers to your bald ***ertion. So you are making progress. But did Sir ever claim to believe that Jesus HAD to LEARN obedience in order to become deity? If he never said that, then your accusation is still falling flat on its face, being baseless.

[Billyray]

--Well, at least I got you to add some qualifiers to your bald ***ertion.

Why do you believe that Jesus has not always been God?

[nrajeff]

Why do you believe that Jesus has not always been God?

---Did I ever say that I DO believe that? Shouldn't you first establish that I DO, and THEN you can ask WHY I do? At least that is the rational way to go about it. So you may not want to.

[Billyray]

---Did I ever say that I DO believe that? Shouldn't you first establish that I DO, and THEN you can ask WHY I do?

Because that is what Mormonism teaches Jeff.

But you are right you views may differ from that of your church.

[nrajeff]

Not sure what church you belonged to, but the one I have been a member of for decades teaches that Jesus has been a deity since before the Creation mentioned in Genesis and John occurred. Of course, since the LDS believe what the Bible teaches, they also believe that Jesus is literally a CHILD of the Only True God of mankind. (If you can find a verse where it says Jesus is only metaphorically God's Son or is merely an adopted child of God, "lay it on us.")

[ErikErik]

Not sure what church you belonged to, but the one I have been a member of for decades teaches that Jesus has been a deity since before the Creation mentioned in Genesis and John occurred. Of course, since the LDS believe what the Bible teaches, they also believe that Jesus is literally a CHILD of the Only True God of mankind. (If you can find a verse where it says Jesus is only metaphorically God's Son or is merely an adopted child of God, "lay it on us.")

Either Christ was always God , or he was once a man like you, a mere mortal, who through obedience, became exalted and is now a god. So which is it?? You say Christ was a deity before Creation. What kind of deity? God or a god among zillions? Do you believe in monotheism or polytheism?

If you are going to say that Christ is the LITERAL son of God the Father, then you are saying that God the Father had intercourse with a goddess. So then your version of heavenly Father is one who was a man and is not a Spirit. Your god has reproductive organs. He must sleep with goddesses in order to procreate. You want us to believe that God cannot create humans without having sex? That He needs a female?? :eek:

God's Word says He IS a Spirit. What the lds church believes in are man-gods...:eek: This sounds like Greek Mythology.

[ErikErik]

Not sure what church you belonged to, but the one I have been a member of for decades teaches that Jesus has been a deity since before the Creation mentioned in Genesis and John occurred. Of course, since the LDS believe what the Bible teaches, they also believe that Jesus is literally a CHILD of the Only True God of mankind. (If you can find a verse where it says Jesus is only metaphorically God's Son or is merely an adopted child of God, "lay it on us.")


The Holy Scriptures tells us that Christ is God, always was God, was with God the Father from the beginning. He is Creator, and you and I are His creature or creation. That means you and I are very different from God the Son, God the Father, and God the Holy Spirit. Different in nature, substance and being. We can never be like them..ever!

So if Jehovah/ Christ was always God and always was with God the Father, then how is it that you believe God the Father sired Jehovah God (or Christ)???

You claim that Jesus was always deity. Your church says He is Jehovah of the OT, but then in the next breath you say God the Father sired him through sex with some goddess heavenly being..:eek: This is what LITERAL means.

Which is it? Was Christ always God, or a man who progressed to godhood?

The lds fails to grasp that God the Father and God the Son are uncreated. They always were. There never was a time when they were not.

God said He knows of no other gods. None before Him and none shall come after. He alone is God.

Do you remember the question Sword asked you that you couldn't answer? If God has a father, would He not know it? Would He not know His father? God says HE KNOWS OF NO OTHER GODS!!! PERIOD!

[Sir]

If you are going to say that Christ is the LITERAL son of God the Father, then you are saying that God the Father had intercourse with a goddess.

This is false. I have 2 beautiful daughters who are literally mine, but they were not conceived through intercourse. If I can do this, I'm sure God can do much greater.


So then your version of heavenly Father is one who was a man and is not a Spirit. Your god has reproductive organs.

Jesus is God. Jesus resurrected with a perfect body. Do you thing Jesus resurrected w/o the reprodictive organs attached? If so, how do you know? If not, your statement is flawed.


He must sleep with goddesses in order to procreate. You want us to believe that God cannot create humans without having sex? That He needs a female?? :eek:

Really? Just above you implied the only option for Jesus being the LITERAL son of God was that the father had intercourse. But then you said Jeff "wants you to believe that God cannot create humans without having sex". Which is it? You are arguing both sides, which means your argument is flawed.



God's Word says He IS a Spirit. What the lds church believes in are man-gods...:eek: This sounds like Greek Mythology.

Like the Greek god Jesus Christ, the god that is a spirit and a man?

[Billyray]

Not sure what church you belonged to, but the one I have been a member of for decades teaches that Jesus has been a deity since before the Creation mentioned in Genesis and John occurred.

Same church that you belong to Jeff.

Tell us, when did Jesus become God?

[James Banta]

[Sir;73636]This is false. I have 2 beautiful daughters who are literally mine, but they were not conceived through intercourse. If I can do this, I'm sure God can do much greater.

Really is this how apostles of your church understood the way in which Jesus was conceived? Do they not knew all about these other "Nature ways" by which a child could be convinced? And yet this is a teaching of a Prophet seer and revelator of your church:

These name ***les all signify that our Lord is the only Son of the Father in the flesh. Each of the words is to be understood literally. Only means only, Begotten means begotten; and Son means son. Christ was begotten by an Immortal Father in the same way that mortal men are begotten by mortal fathers. (Mormon Doctrine, 1979, pp. 546-47)

Seems your natural ideas clash with those of a prophet of your god..


Jesus is God. Jesus resurrected with a perfect body. Do you thing Jesus resurrected w/o the reprodictive organs attached? If so, how do you know? If not, your statement is flawed.

I don't have any idea how the resurrection body of Jesus was built.. Neither do you! It is conceivable that unnecessary appendages would not be included remember Paul told us that body which is laid down in death is not the same body as in raised up. The natural is corrupt and the resurrection body is incorruption (1 Cor 15:37-42).. We don't know what we shall be but when that came come we know that we will be like Him (1John 3:2)..

IHS jim

[ErikErik]

This is false. I have 2 beautiful daughters who are literally mine, but they were not conceived through intercourse. If I can do this, I'm sure God can do much greater.



Jesus is God. Jesus resurrected with a perfect body. Do you thing Jesus resurrected w/o the reprodictive organs attached? If so, how do you know? If not, your statement is flawed.



Really? Just above you implied the only option for Jesus being the LITERAL son of God was that the father had intercourse. But then you said Jeff "wants you to believe that God cannot create humans without having sex". Which is it? You are arguing both sides, which means your argument is flawed.




Like the Greek god Jesus Christ, the god that is a spirit and a man?

Your church teaches/has taught that God is a polygamous, has many goddess wives and is busy producing spirit babies. That God has a body like ours. Now you want to turn around and claim that god has no reproductive organs. So either He has a body like yours or he doesn't. Which is it??

However, none of the above has any scriptural support from the word of God...Sorry

Guess you have forgotten what your past leaders said and taught. That Christ was begotten by an immortal Father in the same way that mortal men are begotten by mortal fathers. Young taught: 'The birth of the Saviour was as natural as are the births of our children; it was the result of natural action. He partook of flesh and blood—was begotten of his Father, as we were of our fathers.'

This not only denies the virgin birth, but also denies the true deity of Jesus Christ, who said He is the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending.

If God has a body like yours, then why do you now want to say His body is different and has different parts??? The Holy Scriptures says God is a Spirit. Mormons say no He is not! Guess you call God a liar.

[Sir]

Your church teaches/has taught that God is a polygamous, has many goddess wives and is busy producing spirit babies. That God has a body like ours. Now you want to turn around and claim that god has no reproductive organs. So either He has a body like yours or he doesn't. Which is it??

However, none of the above has any scriptural support from the word of God...Sorry

Guess you have forgotten what your past leaders said and taught. That Christ was begotten by an immortal Father in the same way that mortal men are begotten by mortal fathers. Young taught: 'The birth of the Saviour was as natural as are the births of our children; it was the result of natural action. He partook of flesh and blood—was begotten of his Father, as we were of our fathers.'

This not only denies the virgin birth, but also denies the true deity of Jesus Christ, who said He is the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending.

If God has a body like yours, then why do you now want to say His body is different and has different parts??? The Holy Scriptures says God is a Spirit. Mormons say no He is not! Guess you call God a liar.

It isn't MY position that Jesus resurrected without certain body parts. That would be James.

My point was that it is YOU who made 2 opposite claims. But apparently reading comprehension is becoming an issue and I don't feel like trying to help people who are unable to understand.

[Sir]

Really is this how apostles of your church understood the way in which Jesus was conceived? Do they not knew all about these other "Nature ways" by which a child could be convinced? And yet this is a teaching of a Prophet seer and revelator of your church:

These name ***les all signify that our Lord is the only Son of the Father in the flesh. Each of the words is to be understood literally. Only means only, Begotten means begotten; and Son means son. Christ was begotten by an Immortal Father in the same way that mortal men are begotten by mortal fathers. (Mormon Doctrine, 1979, pp. 546-47)

Seems your natural ideas clash with those of a prophet of your god..

I'm simply saying that Erik's claim that saying Jesus is the LITERAL son of God means God had sexual intercourse with a goddess is false. One can be a literal child of another without sexual intercourse.




I don't have any idea how the resurrection body of Jesus was built.. Neither do you! It is conceivable that unnecessary appendages would not be included remember Paul told us that body which is laid down in death is not the same body as in raised up. The natural is corrupt and the resurrection body is incorruption (1 Cor 15:37-42).. We don't know what we shall be but when that came come we know that we will be like Him (1John 3:2)..

IHS jim

Really? I've never met a christian who believed it is possible that Jesus resurrected without part of his body. You're the first.

[James Banta]

[Sir;73658]I'm simply saying that Erik's claim that saying Jesus is the LITERAL son of God means God had sexual intercourse with a goddess is false. One can be a literal child of another without sexual intercourse.


I was showing you that earlier on LDS church history it was believed that God conceived Jesus in "natural way". in the 19th century that didn't include anything but sexual intercourse.. You have no argument with me you will have to take that up with your historic church leaders..

The birth of the Saviour was as natural as are the births of our children; it was the result of natural action. He partook of flesh and blood—was begotten of his Father, as we were of our fathers" (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, vol. 8, p. 115).

Now tell me that when Young said this he meant the aid of modern medicine.. Young was speaking of a pure sexual act here.. Now logic comes into play.. If God has a sexual union with Mary to bring about the body of Jesus, doesn't it follow that this is how He bring spirit babies into his family in their pre-existent state? I say Yes of course.. After all, as I have pointed out, with God there in no turning or shadow of change (James 1:17)..


Really? I've never met a christian who believed it is possible that Jesus resurrected without part of his body. You're the first.

Since those worthy of the resurrection of the just are like the angels it is doubtful that sexual organs are required. No one ever examined Jesus to see it His resurrection body is the same in every way as was His mortal body.. We can ***ume that His mortal body was because the Bible says that He was tempted in every way that we are yet He was without sin (Heb 4:15).. So if we will be like Him we too will have no need of sexual organs being like the angels, it isn't a far reach to say that His resurrection body is that much different than a mortal body.. See instead of just disagreeing with you I actually give reason from the Bible for the idea I put forward.. I'll bet the Christians you have spoken to about thing have never given it a moments thought.. IHS jim

[Sir]

I was showing you that earlier on LDS church history it was believed that God conceived Jesus in "natural way". in the 19th century that didn't include anything but sexual intercourse.. You have no argument with me you will have to take that up with your historic church leaders..

The birth of the Saviour was as natural as are the births of our children; it was the result of natural action. He partook of flesh and blood—was begotten of his Father, as we were of our fathers" (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, vol. 8, p. 115).

Now tell me that when Young said this he meant the aid of modern medicine.. Young was speaking of a pure sexual act here.. Now logic comes into play.. If God has a sexual union with Mary to bring about the body of Jesus, doesn't it follow that this is how He bring spirit babies into his family in their pre-existent state? I say Yes of course.. After all, as I have pointed out, with God there in no turning or shadow of change (James 1:17)..



Since those worthy of the resurrection of the just are like the angels it is doubtful that sexual organs are required. No one ever examined Jesus to see it His resurrection body is the same in every way as was His mortal body.. We can ***ume that His mortal body was because the Bible says that He was tempted in every way that we are yet He was without sin (Heb 4:15).. So if we will be like Him we too will have no need of sexual organs being like the angels, it isn't a far reach to say that His resurrection body is that much different than a mortal body.. See instead of just disagreeing with you I actually give reason from the Bible for the idea I put forward.. I'll bet the Christians you have spoken to about thing have never given it a moments thought.. IHS jim

James,
You're arguing and posting quotes from LDS church history as if that is what is even being argued. It's not. The only thing being stated here is that one person is claiming that to be called a literal son, that son MUST have been conceived via sexual intercourse.

Obviously that is not true and so should end that argument. I'm not sure what point you are trying to make in regards to that.

[ErikErik]

I'm simply saying that Erik's claim that saying Jesus is the LITERAL son of God means God had sexual intercourse with a goddess is false. One can be a literal child of another without sexual intercourse.


Really? I've never met a christian who believed it is possible that Jesus resurrected without part of his body. You're the first.


MY claims? So what do you do with what Brigham Young taught: "The birth of our Savior was as natural as are the births of our children; it was the result of NATURAL ACTION. He partook of FLESH AND BLOOD--was begotten of his father, as we were of our fathers."

Young: "When the time came that His first-born, the Saviour, should come into the world and take a tabernacle, the Father came himself and favored that Spirit
with a tabernacle instead of letting any other man do it. The Saviour was begotten by the Father of His spirit, by the same being who is the Father of
our spirits, AND THAT IS ALL THE ORGANIC DIFFERENCE BETWEEN JESUS CHRIST AND YOU AND ME."

Joe F. Smith said: "We are told in the scriptures that Jesus Christ is the only begotten son of God in the flesh....how are children begotten? I answer, just as Jesus was begotten of his Father.."

Here's Orson Pratt: "The fleshly body of Jesus required a Mother as well as a Father. Therefore, the Father and Mother of Jesus, according to the flesh, must have been ***ociated in the capacity of husband and wife; hence the Virgin Mary must have been, for the time being, the lawful wife of God the Father."...:eek:


My guess is that the lds on here will either deny, redefine, or sweep it all under the rug.

[ErikErik]

It isn't MY position that Jesus resurrected without certain body parts. That would be James.

My point was that it is YOU who made 2 opposite claims. But apparently reading comprehension is becoming an issue and I don't feel like trying to help people who are unable to understand.

Two opposite claims? I am merely pointing our how the lds seems not to understand that they are really talking out of both corners of their mouths. You cannot say that God has celestial wives and is producing spirit babies, and at the same time teach that God has a body as tangible as man's. And then balk and say: oh no he doesn't have sex. You church teaches god has a body like ours but you deny he has any parts or p***ions which your very own leaders taught. Guess you guys didn't notice the implication of such beliefs. Orson Pratt even said that God and Mary were in the capacity of husband and wife.

This is all doublespeak and the lds has been doing this since its inception.

[James Banta]

James,
You're arguing and posting quotes from LDS church history as if that is what is even being argued. It's not. The only thing being stated here is that one person is claiming that to be called a literal son, that son MUST have been conceived via sexual intercourse.

Obviously that is not true and so should end that argument. I'm not sure what point you are trying to make in regards to that.

Since "Obviously that is not true" then my pointing out that such was the belief of LDS men that even today are considered prophets of God it shows that either that the Bible is wrong, you are wrong or that Brigham Young and Joseph Smith taught false doctrine.. If that is the case and you are correct then they are false prophet and you are in a false church.. I agree with you as I agree with the Bible "for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost." Sex had nothing to do with the conception of Jesus within Mary's womb it was a miraculous work of the Power of God.. IHS jim

[James Banta]

MY claims? So what do you do with what Brigham Young taught: "The birth of our Savior was as natural as are the births of our children; it was the result of NATURAL ACTION. He partook of FLESH AND BLOOD--was begotten of his father, as we were of our fathers."

Young: "When the time came that His first-born, the Saviour, should come into the world and take a tabernacle, the Father came himself and favored that Spirit
with a tabernacle instead of letting any other man do it. The Saviour was begotten by the Father of His spirit, by the same being who is the Father of
our spirits, AND THAT IS ALL THE ORGANIC DIFFERENCE BETWEEN JESUS CHRIST AND YOU AND ME."

Joe F. Smith said: "We are told in the scriptures that Jesus Christ is the only begotten son of God in the flesh....how are children begotten? I answer, just as Jesus was begotten of his Father.."

Here's Orson Pratt: "The fleshly body of Jesus required a Mother as well as a Father. Therefore, the Father and Mother of Jesus, according to the flesh, must have been ***ociated in the capacity of husband and wife; hence the Virgin Mary must have been, for the time being, the lawful wife of God the Father."...:eek:


My guess is that the lds on here will either deny, redefine, or sweep it all under the rug.


That's an easy one to answer he must believe that the Bible is telling the truth and that Brigham Young was wrong.. What it is unwilling to do is recognize that a prophets teaching must be 100% true or that prophet is not a real prophet and should be ignored.. Mormonism seem to (at least in this day as told by this member of that religion) want it both ways, Young was wrong but he is still a prophet.. Doesn't work though does it? IHS jim

[Knox]

I'm simply saying that Erik's claim that saying Jesus is the LITERAL son of God means God had sexual intercourse with a goddess is false. One can be a literal child of another without sexual intercourse.
But for such an event to happen over 2000 years ago, would require what religious people would call a miracle. Surely Mormons don't believe that God is capable of miracles?


Really? I've never met a christian who believed it is possible that Jesus resurrected without part of his body. You're the first.
Well, I for one will not brand a person who has such a "weird" belief about Jesus, a non-Christian just because they happen to have that belief.

[bert10]

The Sword 99: There shall not be any more hell have you not read in Revelation...how Death and Hell are emptied of men before they are cast into the lake of fire?

The only choices after judgment day....is one of the many mansions in different degrees of glory or darkness.

There is nothing in between. After Judgment day there is only Light or Darkness...and if want to know which one who shall go into what Jesus called the "Outer Darkness" read Hebrews 6:4-6. It is they who have known the light and received gifts of the light and then willingly with eyes wide open choose darkness. For these the power of the Holy Ghost cannot renew them unto repentance.

And without repentance there is no forgiveness of sins. For forgiveness of sins is predicated on Repentance. The devils before Melchizedek took an oath on mount Hermon to never Repent. And God will hold them to their oath...So the devils teach men to rebel and that God should forgive them by Grace teaching men that the rain falls on the wheat as well as the tares.

They do not realize, that after judgment day it is not possible for men in their various degrees of filthiness to exist with those who are holy.

Only on this earth the wicked and the just can live side by side, where all even the wicked can benefit from the blessings of God for the sakes of the righteous.

At death the first separation begins. Prison for those who are wicked and unclean so that they can begin to repent and Paradise for them who have manage to earn forgiveness of sins by repentance before they died.

I repeat in the beginning there was light and darkness and after judgment it shall be as in the beginning when everything was new. There are going to be kingdoms of Glory [Light] and one Kingdom of Darkness where the light of Christ is not. And is also mentioned in Jude who took of from Enoch.

bert10


Yes all men will resurrect, whether just or unjust, but not all men will spend eternity with God. Jesus Christ at the Judgment will cast some out and they will follow satan into hell. The lds always omits what the Bible says about hell.. No its not just for satan and the son of perdition, but for all men who reject Christ, preach a "different" christ, or teach a different gospel. In Matthew 7 we read about people whom Christ cast out. He said He never knew these people who had prophesied, cast our demons and did many wonderful things in His name. Why would Christ cast out such people from heaven? Because they had depended on their "good works" to save them or to merit points in the afterlife. They did not depend on Christ alone for their eternal salvation.

Are you depending on Christ or on your own efforts to strive to always be obedient so that you can obtain some kind of godhood? Why do you even need Jesus if you think you can become a god of another planet for all eternity through your own efforts?

Hell is not here and now for some men. Its future. Nor is universal salvation taught in the Bible. Read Luke 16 again. Our fates ares sealed at death. The gulf is fixed. One will either be with God or separated from God forever. Jesus spoke more about hell than heaven.

[TheSword99]

The Sword 99: There shall not be any more hell have you not read in Revelation...how Death and Hell are emptied of men before they are cast into the lake of fire?


bert10

God will call the unsaved, those who rejected Christ or taught a different gospel and a different Christ from earth and from hell to the Great White Throne Judgment. The Judge will take His seat and the books will be opened. The Lambs Book of Life contains the names of those who were born again and will reign with Christ forever.
Those who refused to be saved, or adhered to a false gospel will not be listed in that book.

The Holy Bible says: "And death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works" (Rev. 20:13).
On that day the doors of hell will open and all that are in it will come forth to be judged and receive their sentence of eternal ****ation in the lake of fire.


Yes hell will be emptied. There will be a transfer from hell to the lake of fire because nobody, saved or unsaved, can receive their just rewards until the angel flying across the heavens declares "time shall be no more" (Rev.10:6)

[TheSword99]

.



At death the first separation begins. Prison for those who are wicked and unclean so that they can begin to repent and Paradise for them who have manage to earn forgiveness of sins by repentance before they died.


bert10

The Bible nowhere teaches a 2nd chance after death. We are to choose this day, in this lifetime, whom we will serve. After death, all that remains for the unbeliever is judgment and all Judgment is final. (Rev 20:14-15) Nor can we earn forgiveness. It is freely given to those who repent and follow Jesus Christ and teach HIS Gospel.

In Luke 16 it is very clear that our eternal destiny is sealed at death. The gulf between the saved in Christ and the the unsaved is fixed. Notice that the rich man in Luke did not repent. But rather he begged Abraham to warn his brothers who were still alive on earth, about the terrible torment that awaits the unbeliever. That great gulf between Hell and Paradise, or Heaven, is fixed. Its permanent. No one ever can p*** from one to the other. There is no limbo, no purgatory, no middle ground, no 2nd chance! Beyond this life there remains only an eternal ****ation and an eternal Heaven, eternally separated!

The Lake of Fire is real and forever. Hebrews 9:27 says its appointed once for man to die, then the judgment. If your name isn't written in the Lamb's Book of Life you are judged already. You will be cast into the lake of fire.

Have you read the many p***ages where Jesus talked and warned about hell? He warned about the wrath to come.

“Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation” (John. 5:28-29)

“And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire” (Rev. 20:11-15)

[ErikErik]

You haven't read the Bible much have you?



.

Is this your favorite accusation? Generally accuse others of not reading the Holy Bible just because they disagree with you? As an lds, why would you recommend reading a book that your church teaches has errors and was tampered with by unscrupulous men and has "truths" deleted from it?

So which is it, do you believe the Holy Bible is trustworthy and God preserved it like He promised? ( and He did promise to, didn't He. You have read what He said about this haven't you? You wouldn't dare call God a liar I hope) Or do you believe its unreliable and suspect??

Who do you believe: God or your church?

[ErikErik]

So what you're saying is we can do anything we want and get away with it.



.

This is pure ig-norance. No born again Christian ever believes he can keep sinning. One of the evidence that one is truly saved and a child of God is the very fact that he hates sin. This has always been the accusation of those outside of Christianity that we believe we have a license to sin. You don't understand GRACE, God's unmerited favor. You are still striving to obey and be perfect even though God told you in His word, that your righteous acts are like filthy rags. (Isaiah 64:6)

The lds thinks he can please Almighty God by his "good deeds." But God still sees a sinner lost without Christ. When we are spiritually born-again, (which the lds church does not teach because you are striving your way to heaven) God sees Christ in us and that is what he approves of. We are stamped REDEEMED, because of Christ's perfect sacrifice. Our names are written in the Lamb's Book of Life. Unless one's name is in there, one is without hope in the hereafter. (Read the Bible and see for yourself) God then begins transforming us. Thus we lose the desire to sin. The Holy Spirit convicts us each time we sin which leads to repentance. Paul understood this and rejoiced at the wonderful riches of God's grace because he acknowledged that he wasn't doing what he should do and the very things he should do, he wasn't. He saw the hopelessness of trying to always be obedient. He couldn't do it. But Jesus Christ paid His and our sin debt in full. The lds is trying to do what Christ already did. This is what separates True Christians from all other religious groups. Christians understand what Christ meant when he said: "It is finished." All other groups say: "I must help Him, (or ***ist Him) Or: "I must contribute to my own salvation."

[James Banta]

[apexviper;7846]You haven't read the Bible much have you?

You have no idea how I read, when or where.. I quote from it far more than I have see you do.. All you seem to do it make unsupported claims without any scriptural authority.. When you can find Biblical p***ages that actually support what you are saying you might gain some level of credibility.. But these unsupported claims are nothing but a clanging gong. Noise without substance.


What you're saying is we can do anything we want and get away with it.

Is that supported in the Scripture? Yes it is! But while that is true not all things would be expedient.

1Cor 6:12
All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.

A Christian isn't saved by our works but by His.

*** 3:5
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost
So can a Christian sin all they want.. Christians SIN FAR MORE THAN THEY WANT!! But we like Paul aren't perfect.. We are merely forgiven..



Your problem is you have no authority to baptize. No, His teachings have never left. You cannot harm the truth because it's constant. What other churches do is teach things not of the gospel & twist them. We mormons do not. We teach the only teachings of Christ there has ever been.

What more authority is there than to me made a child of God by faith in Jesus (John 1:12).. I agree that the truth is eternal and can't be destroyed.. Lies of the other hand change often and a lot.. Did you know that the BofM has been changed over 3,000 times since Smith said he received the translation from God? And that sections of the D&C have been totally removed one because it taught that polygamy is not the doctrine of the Church of Jesus Christ? Why all this change? Maybe because mormonism is the teaching of a man and not of God? That is what it looks like..




Shall, meaning all that will believe in Christ but if you truly believe IN Christ then you'll also believe His words and try to do good works. Otherwise you'd be a hypocrite.

YES, of course.. He has prepared good works for His children to walk in (Eph 2:10). Christian don't believe that Good works should be avoided.. No doing God's works is part of being His.. He can see out hearts but we members of the human race can't.. We need to see our faith in how we live and what we do.. But it isn't other people that bring salvation to us. That is from God and therefore the works we do don't enter into His knowledge of our hearts. He saves us by His grace through or faith in Jesus (Eph 2:8-9).. In short we don't do good work to get saved.. WE do good works because we are saved..



Please, don't get on the subject of "He is one with the Father". I've had to correct so many people on that it's not even funny as to how people misinterpret it. They're of one purpose, not one being.

Ok I won't then.. I will say that that the Bible says there is one God.. Jesus called the Father God (John 20:17). Jesus claimed to be God (John 8:58) and Peter the Apostle claimed the Holy Spirit to be God (Acts 5:3-4).. Three persons, right? And yet Moses and Jesus both affirmed that The the Lord (Jehovah) our God (Elohim) is one Lord (Jehovah).. How can that be expect in the doctrine of the trinity that I have explained?




You haven't shown anything except maybe the fact that you don't know the scriptures. As Ephesians 1:3 says, God is the Father of Jesus Christ but I guess you never saw that part or all other verses like it. And as far as the Bible goes, it does a good *** supporting the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints and the Book of Mormon.

I don't deny that the Father is God.. I have just told you that Jesus confirms Him as God.. The same Bible, the same Person that confirmed that fact also confirmed that He is Go and that there is One GOD.. That is why the doctrine of God as taught within mormonism can't be the truth about His nature.. He isn't a creation of some other God he is the Only God that has ever existed (Isaiah 43:10). He wasn't ever anything but God, the Bible teaches that He has been God from everlasting and will be God to everlasting (Psalm 90:2).. Not that He has always existed, No that isn't the whole story.. He has always existed AS GOD.. The teachings of mormonism deny this God and teach one invented by Joseph Smith.. A God that became a God through obedience to the Laws and ordinances of a gospel that Smith invented..


Professor Charles Anthon told Martin Harris 3 times he cannot read a sealed book. Ezekiel 37: http://www.lightplanet.com/response/BofM/EZEK37.html

Yes I know the story.. But have you ever read that p***age of Ezek? In the context it shows that the book that was written couldn't be read by the learned man, nor could it be read by the unlearned. Changing the context so that the unlearned can read the book puts your interpretation outside what the Bible teaches.. You try to make that point and turn around and tell me I am the one that hasn't read the Bible.. That is a sad statement of a desperate person trying to hold on to the lies that are crumbling in his hands. and those lies are mormonism..


If that's the case then you're not much of a christian. You are just like the Pharisees. They too denied living prophets but accepted the ones of old. Christ called them hypocrites for it. We mormons do trust God which is how we know the Church of JESUS CHRIST of Latter-Day Saints is the only true church on the earth. It is His church. God has not called you to teach against Him.

I don't deny prophets.. I believe that Jesus is the prophets that has given us the final word of God, but if a person claims to be a prophet we are commanded as God's people to test their message.. It they aren't 100% true, they are a false prophet and we are required to reject him.. Smith was NOT 100%.. He was more like 5%.. That makes Him a false prophet according to the Bible (Deut 18:20-22)..


By saying he's never changing then you admit there is a true prophet on the earth. His methods don't change, right? So you're saying we can do bad all we want and get away with it. Riiight. By being alongside His righteousness means to do good genius.

There are many prophets.. But As I said Jesus is the main prophets.. All the others just restate the message Jesus gave us.. prophets existed in days of old directing the lives of men but in these last days God speaks to us by his Son (Heb 1:1). Can you show me where I said that the gift of prophecy is no longer in the Church? I never said that.. But prophecy must be tested.. Smith failed the test of a prophet in Deut 18..

As I have have said a Christian sin not just all they want but far more than they want.. And yet even while we were dead in our sins Jesus died for us (Romans 5:8)..

This statement slamming the intelligence of another poster has gotten many a person banned.. If I were you I would lay off saying things like "By being alongside His righteousness means to do good genius".. What we believe is that we have submitted to the righteousness of God instead of trying to establish our own righteousness (Romans 10:3). Before you say things like we are only in God's will by obedience to laws and ordinances maybe you should read what the Bible is all about for even Abraham was counted righteous by Faith (Gen 15:6).. That is the doctrine of God all the way through His word. The laws that Smith used to enslave his followers in is not the freedom that is found in Jesus.. IHS jim

[Knox]

This is pure ig-norance. No born again Christian ever believes he can keep sinning.
Are you saying that James Banta is therefore not a born again Christian?
AV said " What you're saying is we can do anything we want and get away with it" and James replied:

"Is that supported in the Scripture? Yes it is!"

But you say that "no born again Christian ever believes he can keep sinning."


One of the evidence that one is truly saved and a child of God is the very fact that he hates sin.
LDS hate sin so much that they actually try not to sin. So is that evidence they are truly saved?


The lds thinks he can please Almighty God by his "good deeds."
The LDS think it pleases God when people try to obey His commandments. Guilty as charged. Does that make them non-Christians, really?


But God still sees a sinner lost without Christ.
LDS believe that without Christ, it is impossible for us to be saved.

[ErikErik]

Are you saying that James Banta is therefore not a born again Christian?
AV said " What you're saying is we can do anything we want and get away with it" and James replied:

"Is that supported in the Scripture? Yes it is!"

But you say that "no born again Christian ever believes he can keep sinning."


LDS hate sin so much that they actually try not to sin. So is that evidence they are truly saved?


The LDS think it pleases God when people try to obey His commandments. Guilty as charged. Does that make them non-Christians, really?


LDS believe that without Christ, it is impossible for us to be saved.

The lds doesn't just try not to sin. They deny they sin. They rely on their own efforts to get to heaven, not on the finished work of Christ at Calvary.

[Knox]

The lds doesn't just try not to sin. They deny they sin.

They deny that they commit sins?????? Wow. How many of them can you quote having made such a statement?

[James Banta]

The Bible even says Christ was conceived.

I would go as far as to say he was begotten. I don't think the word conceived is correct for how Jesus' body was made.. The Bible says that he was begotten by the Holy Spirit! But your church leaders deny that:

Now remember from this time forth, and for ever, that Jesus Christ was not begotten by the Holy Ghost (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, vol. 1, p. 51)
Again a mormon denial of the scripture.. IHS jim

[ErikErik]

I'm simply saying that Erik's claim that saying Jesus is the LITERAL son of God means God had sexual intercourse with a goddess is false. One can be a literal child of another without sexual intercourse.





Really? I've never met a christian who believed it is possible that Jesus resurrected without part of his body. You're the first.


Sir, you need to reach more of your own church's history. You have many leaders saying many different things. Brigham Young taught that Jesus was born in the natural way the same as you and I were born of our parents. What do you think NATURAL means? This is what Young said: "The birth of our Savior was as natural as are the births of our children; it was the result of NATURAL ACTION. He partook of FLESH AND BLOOD--was begotten of his father, as we were of our fathers.".

The Bible speaks of a miracle (supernatural) that a virgin conceived. It also says that the Holy Ghost overshadowed Mary and she was found to be with child. Why does your church deny this? You have past leaders that said because the Holy Ghost has no body, it was Heavenly Father who came down.

Your leader Orson Pratt said God and Mary were in the capacity of husband wife. I understand that this is shocking and embarr***ing to many lds today, but you can't rewrite history or redefine what your leaders taught.

I see this time and time again; denials that lds leaders taught the things they did. This is why Christians do not rely on men but the Holy Scriptures for Truth.

[Russianwolfe]

Sir, you need to reach more of your own church's history. You have many leaders saying many different things. Brigham Young taught that Jesus was born in the natural way the same as you and I were born of our parents. What do you think NATURAL means? This is what Young said: "The birth of our Savior was as natural as are the births of our children; it was the result of NATURAL ACTION. He partook of FLESH AND BLOOD--was begotten of his father, as we were of our fathers.".


Since BY talks about his birth, why do you ***ume this is about Christ' conception? The natural action could very well be natural birth instead of some kind of supernatural birth. IOW, Christ didn't just appear suddenly in Mary's arms as a child. He was born just like any other baby. Why is this not a valid understanding of what BY meant? After all, he said he was talking about the birth of Christ!!




The Bible speaks of a miracle (supernatural) that a virgin conceived. It also says that the Holy Ghost overshadowed Mary and she was found to be with child. Why does your church deny this?

We don't.



You have past leaders that said because the Holy Ghost has no body, it was Heavenly Father who came down.


Some might have speculated but there is no modern scripture that says this.




Your leader Orson Pratt said God and Mary were in the capacity of husband wife. I understand that this is shocking and embarr***ing to many lds today, but you can't rewrite history or redefine what your leaders taught.


It is neither shocking nor embar***ing to me. It was Br. Pratt's opinion and has never been adopted as doctrine. It matters very little what the individual believes. We are all en***led to our own opinions which probably change from year to year. I know mine do. But you are gravely mistaken if you think that just because someone teaches something that every member is bound to believe it. That just isn't so.




I see this time and time again; denials that lds leaders taught the things they did. This is why Christians do not rely on men but the Holy Scriptures for Truth.

And yet it is men of your own kind who teach these things that they claim is from the Bible. Galileo was under house arrest because the Catholic Church had determined from the Bible that his ideas of the solar system were wrong. Do you expect to be bound by that belief? After all, they enforced their belief and could prove it from the Bible!!! Why don't you believe it also? This is just like your attempt to 'embar*** and shock' us with the opinions of early leaders.

Marvin

[ErikErik]

Since BY talks about his birth, why do you ***ume this is about Christ' conception? The natural action could very well be natural birth instead of some kind of supernatural birth. IOW, Christ didn't just appear suddenly in Mary's arms as a child. He was born just like any other baby. Why is this not a valid understanding of what BY meant? After all, he said he was talking about the birth of Christ!!



We don't.



Some might have speculated but there is no modern scripture that says this.



It is neither shocking nor embar***ing to me. It was Br. Pratt's opinion and has never been adopted as doctrine. It matters very little what the individual believes. We are all en***led to our own opinions which probably change from year to year. I know mine do. But you are gravely mistaken if you think that just because someone teaches something that every member is bound to believe it. That just isn't so.



And yet it is men of your own kind who teach these things that they claim is from the Bible. Galileo was under house arrest because the Catholic Church had determined from the Bible that his ideas of the solar system were wrong. Do you expect to be bound by that belief? After all, they enforced their belief and could prove it from the Bible!!! Why don't you believe it also? This is just like your attempt to 'embar*** and shock' us with the opinions of early leaders.

Marvin

Maybe YOU believe that the Holy Ghost overshadowed Mary, but you have leaders that had taught otherwise. Mormonism is ever changing. You take the liberty of redefining what Brigham Young said. The lds of his day knew full well what he taught and meant. Seems the lds church is still trying to find the Truth when its always been there in God's word the Holy Scriptures.

Young wasn't only talking about Christ's birth, he was also talking about how Christ was conceived. Read it again Marvin.

"The birth of our Savior was as natural as are the births of our children; it was the result of NATURAL ACTION. He partook of FLESH AND BLOOD--was begotten of his father, as we were of our fathers."



Brigham Young said: "When the Virgin Mary conceived the child Jesus, the Father had begotten him in his own likeness. He was not begotten by the Holy Ghost. And who is the Father? He is the first of the human family; and when he (Christ) took a tabernacle, it was begotten by his Father in Heaven, AFTER THE SAME MANNER as the tabernacles of Cain, Abel, and the rest of the sons and daughters of Adam and Eve. Jesus, our elder brother, was begotten in the flesh by the same character that was in the garden of Eden, and who is our Father in Heaven." (JoD 1:50-51)...:eek:

Joseph F. Smith agreed with this when he said: The Holy Ghost is the messenger of the Father and the Son. Mortal beings could not endure the presence of the Father without the Spirit overshadowing them, and that was the mission of the Holy Ghost, but not to beget the Son of God, THAT WAS THE BUSINESS OF THE FATHER. Jesus Christ is the Only Begotten Son of God the Father in the flesh, and in holding to this doctrine President Brigham Young is in perfect accord with the teachings in the Bible."
(Joseph Fielding Smith, Answers to Gospel Questions, vol. 5, p. 128).


"We are told in the scriptures that Jesus Christ is the only begotten son of God in the flesh....how are children begotten? I answer, just as Jesus was begotten of his Father. The Christian denominations believe that Christ was begotten not of God, but of the spirit that overshadowed his mother. THIS IS NONSENSE. Why will they not believe the Father when He says that Jesus Christ is His Only Begotten Son? Why will they try to EXPLAIN THIS TRUTH AWAY and make mystery of it?" ( Joseph F. Smith, 'Box Elder Times,' Sep. 22, 1914).

[Russianwolfe]

Maybe YOU believe that the Holy Ghost overshadowed Mary, but you have leaders that had taught otherwise.


I don't think you understand LDS theology as well as you might think. In order for anyone to endure the presence of a holy heavenly being, the Holy Ghost must 'overshadow' them. In LDS speak, they must be transfigured at the very least. That is what would be implied in LDS thought.



Mormonism is ever changing. You take the liberty of redefining what Brigham Young said. The lds of his day knew full well what he taught and meant. Seems the lds church is still trying to find the Truth when its always been there in God's word the Holy Scriptures.


This is what you would like to believe. Doesn't make it so. Someone from the outside might think that, but that would be far from the truth. Ever wonder why the D&C has had so little added to it in the past 160 years? Because the doctrine of the church hasn't changed. You might be observing the evolution of understanding that has occurred in the past 180 years. But not a change in the doctrines. This is the kind of thing that an antagonist would not be able to see because it is a fine point and beyond his ability to comprehend. There is a difference between trying to find fault and trying to understand. This is something that the antagonist will never be able to see until he obeys the commandment of Christ to love his enemies.



Young wasn't only talking about Christ's birth, he was also talking about how Christ was conceived. Read it again Marvin.

"The birth of our Savior was as natural as are the births of our children; it was the result of NATURAL ACTION. He partook of FLESH AND BLOOD--was begotten of his father, as we were of our fathers."


Then why does he use the word birth?

And your carnal minds immediately concludes that God had to have sex with Mary. Sorry I don't buy it just because you say it. If we can help a woman to conceive and do so without intercourse then I thnk we can credit God with a greater ability to do the same. After all, he is not limited by our knowledge or the knowledge of someone from the past.



Brigham Young said: "When the Virgin Mary conceived the child Jesus, the Father had begotten him in his own likeness. He was not begotten by the Holy Ghost. And who is the Father? He is the first of the human family; and when he (Christ) took a tabernacle, it was begotten by his Father in Heaven, AFTER THE SAME MANNER as the tabernacles of Cain, Abel, and the rest of the sons and daughters of Adam and Eve. Jesus, our elder brother, was begotten in the flesh by the same character that was in the garden of Eden, and who is our Father in Heaven." (JoD 1:50-51)...:eek:


Gee, and from this you have your conclusions. But just make sure you don't even think this is doctrine. The church has a very formal protocol for establishing new doctrine and a man doing nothing more than speaking from the pulpit is not the way. You can say that BY taught this but that wouldn't be honest. BY said a lot of things about Adam before and after this statement and you would have to reconcile all of them in order to see what BY actually believe about Adam. But that would be part of obeying the command of Christ to love your enemies.




Joseph F. Smith agreed with this when he said: The Holy Ghost is the messenger of the Father and the Son. Mortal beings could not endure the presence of the Father without the Spirit overshadowing them, and that was the mission of the Holy Ghost, but not to beget the Son of God, THAT WAS THE BUSINESS OF THE FATHER. Jesus Christ is the Only Begotten Son of God the Father in the flesh, and in holding to this doctrine President Brigham Young is in perfect accord with the teachings in the Bible."
(Joseph Fielding Smith, Answers to Gospel Questions, vol. 5, p. 128).


Why do you want to make a li-ar of the Bible and thus God? If Christ is the only begotten of the Father, then he cannot be the begotten of the Holy Ghost. Can you help me to understand why you hate the Bible so much that you would make Christ and the Bible out to be liar-s?



"We are told in the scriptures that Jesus Christ is the only begotten son of God in the flesh....how are children begotten? I answer, just as Jesus was begotten of his Father. The Christian denominations believe that Christ was begotten not of God, but of the spirit that overshadowed his mother. THIS IS NONSENSE. Why will they not believe the Father when He says that Jesus Christ is His Only Begotten Son? Why will they try to EXPLAIN THIS TRUTH AWAY and make mystery of it?" ( Joseph F. Smith, 'Box Elder Times,' Sep. 22, 1914).

See!!

Are you so lacking in Christian virtues that you will refuse to obey one of the commandments of Chrirst?

Marvin

[TheSword99]

Since BY talks about his birth, why do you ***ume this is about Christ' conception? The natural action could very well be natural birth instead of some kind of supernatural birth. IOW, Christ didn't just appear suddenly in Mary's arms as a child. He was born just like any other baby. Why is this not a valid understanding of what BY meant? After all, he said he was talking about the birth of Christ!!



We don't.



Some might have speculated but there is no modern scripture that says this.



It is neither shocking nor embar***ing to me. It was Br. Pratt's opinion and has never been adopted as doctrine. It matters very little what the individual believes. We are all en***led to our own opinions which probably change from year to year. I know mine do. But you are gravely mistaken if you think that just because someone teaches something that every member is bound to believe it. That just isn't so.



And yet it is men of your own kind who teach these things that they claim is from the Bible. Galileo was under house arrest because the Catholic Church had determined from the Bible that his ideas of the solar system were wrong. Do you expect to be bound by that belief? After all, they enforced their belief and could prove it from the Bible!!! Why don't you believe it also? This is just like your attempt to 'embar*** and shock' us with the opinions of early leaders.

Marvin

Marvin, why do lds leaders always voice their opinions about spiritual truths? The bible describes the lds when it says in 2 Tim. 3:7 "Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth."

Opinions have no place in Christ's church. Nor does a pastor preach opinions. He is entrusted with God's word and will be judged much more harshly if he teaches untruths. Only the Truth must be taught and the sole source for Truth is the Holy Scriptures, not the JoD, BoM, PoGP, D&C, or any other BOOK. The mormon church is notorious for voicing opinions about the doctrine of God and salavtion. How can they possibly teach if they are supposed to be God's representatives when all they give are personal views that keeps changing when new leaders take over? Why is your church still undecided that they can't make doctrines "official??

The reason why Mormons are now denying or backpedaling from many of their former teachings is that it doesn't comport with their church's continual efforts to rid itself of its strange and unscriptual doctrines, in order to try and gain acceptance from the rest of the Christian world.

[Russianwolfe]

Marvin, why do lds leaders always voice their opinions about spiritual truths? The bible describes the lds when it says in 2 Tim. 3:7 "Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth."


Funny, your world of Christianity hasn't come to an agreement on many more issues than the LDS world. You have so many sects and divisions that it seems that agreement is impossible. And yet they are learning, ever learning, and never able to agree on the truth. I think the pot is calling the kettle black. Physician heal thyself.




Opinions have no place in Christ's church. Nor does a pastor preach opinions.


So everything you say here when speaking about spiritual matters is not your opinion. When James Banta claims that Christ is still suffering on the Cross for the sins of the world, that is not an opinion?



He is entrusted with God's word and will be judged much more harshly if he teaches untruths.


Well, then I will pray for your pastors, past, present, and future. Since the language that is used is imperfect it would be impossible for them to speak of spiritual things without making errors. They all will fall short of the glory of Christ and pefection.



Only the Truth must be taught and the sole source for Truth is the Holy Scriptures, not the JoD, BoM, PoGP, D&C, or any other BOOK.


I find you statement of this belief to be quite a fantasy. When I was a child I heard a pastor teach on Sunday that Christ went to hell when he died. I have since then, read the Bible and found that this was only an opinion and is not taught in the scriptures. So you might say that this is the way it should be but a reality check reveals that it is not this way. Every man teaches his opinion no matter what he is teaching. He might have scripture to back up what he is saying but nevertheless it is his opinion on what the Bible is saying. You are definitely living in a fantasy world.



The mormon church is notorious for voicing opinions about the doctrine of God and salavtion.


But at least we know they are opinion and don't treat them as doctrine.



How can they possibly teach if they are supposed to be God's representatives when all they give are personal views that keeps changing when new leaders take over? Why is your church still undecided that they can't make doctrines "official??



If it is not doctrine, then it is not official. There is no undecisiveness in this. This is you projecting your experience in your own church onto ours. Get over it. We know what is doctrine and what is not. We know when a man is attempting to voice opinion and we know when that opinion contradicts doctrine. If you are having trouble with this, you might consider that a reason for your confusion would be because you don't believe as we do.



The reason why Mormons are now denying or backpedaling from many of their former teachings is that it doesn't comport with their church's continual efforts to rid itself of its strange and unscriptual doctrines, in order to try and gain acceptance from the rest of the Christian world.

Again, you are projecting your own problems onto your view of us.

We are not denying or backpedaling on any former leader's teachings. We still publish all the documents that you claim we are denying or backpedaling from. If we are still publishing them, then where is the denying? And then there is the Joseph Smith Papers Project. This project is attempting to publish all of the Joseph Smith papers in volumes that are designed to last a very long time. How is this backpedaling.

Like I said, you are projecting your own problems onto your view of us.

Marvin

[James Banta]

[Russianwolfe;74566]Funny, your world of Christianity hasn't come to an agreement on many more issues than the LDS world. You have so many sects and divisions that it seems that agreement is impossible. And yet they are learning, ever learning, and never able to agree on the truth. I think the pot is calling the kettle black. Physician heal thyself.

Mormonism is pretending to be a sect of Christianity and yet it has as many as 200 splinter groups. See the whole list at http://4mormon.org/mormon-splinter-groups.php

No Christian denomination has torn it's self into so many pieces as mormonism has over the years..


So everything you say here when speaking about spiritual matters is not your opinion. When James Banta claims that Christ is still suffering on the Cross for the sins of the world, that is not an opinion?

WOW, do you misunderstand.. And every time I have said that I have aid that in God's sight or before God.. He is not subject to time and sees the cross as being present.. We are finite and see it only in the past.. You don't understand, I am not surprised..


Well, then I will pray for your pastors, past, present, and future. Since the language that is used is imperfect it would be impossible for them to speak of spiritual things without making errors. They all will fall short of the glory of Christ and pefection.

I agree.. They are all flawed men capable of error.. That is why it is so important to listen to them and then go to the scripture and check on their teaching to see it it is the truth.. Only in that way can a believer be seen as honorable ( Acts 17:10-11).. Just because a Pastor says something doesn't mean that it above being tested by the word of GOD.


I find you statement of this belief to be quite a fantasy. When I was a child I heard a pastor teach on Sunday that Christ went to hell when he died. I have since then, read the Bible and found that this was only an opinion and is not taught in the scriptures. So you might say that this is the way it should be but a reality check reveals that it is not this way. Every man teaches his opinion no matter what he is teaching. He might have scripture to back up what he is saying but nevertheless it is his opinion on what the Bible is saying. You are definitely living in a fantasy world.

Do you know what the word we translate from the Hebrew for Hell is? It's Sheol.. It literally means the grave.. Are you going to tell me that Jesus didn't descend into the grave? Jesus is taught in the scripture as being sealed in a grave.. You are WRONG again because you don't seem to know or understand the scripture.. I have an interpretation of the Scripture in :

Eph 4:8
Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
Who is this captivity that Jesus led captive? Even mormon doctrine calls Abraham's bosom prison. At least the part across the gulf.. So yes it's an interpretation and I haven't used it in thee discussions because of that.. But just because Joseph Smith made up his own biblical interpretations that even deny the interpretation God gave for p***ages that are embedded right in the text doesn't mean that Christians commit the same sin..



If it is not doctrine, then it is not official. There is no undecisiveness in this. This is you projecting your experience in your own church onto ours. Get over it. We know what is doctrine and what is not. We know when a man is attempting to voice opinion and we know when that opinion contradicts doctrine. If you are having trouble with this, you might consider that a reason for your confusion would be because you don't believe as we do.

Do you now? I have seen some on here insist that some river in South or Central America IS one of the rivers refereed to in the BofM.. He has pointed to LDS teachers that hold that position.. But what is the official comment from the LDS church? They will not confirm any site in the Americas as a BofM site.. They won't confirm the alters what have the initials NHM on them as a BofM site. They will not point to any oasis on the Gulf of Aqaba.. And yet on here these things are given as evidence for the BofM..


We are not denying or backpedaling on any former leader's teachings. We still publish all the documents that you claim we are denying or backpedaling from. If we are still publishing them, then where is the denying? And then there is the Joseph Smith Papers Project. This project is attempting to publish all of the Joseph Smith papers in volumes that are designed to last a very long time. How is this backpedaling.

If that so? Then why is it that so few LDS (especially LDS women) believe that one must be a polygamist (at least of the heart) in order to gain exaltation? That was the word of BY, just ask Richard he will confirm that.. Seems that the LDS church spins on doctrine on any point that makes it hard to be LDS. Are blacks being given the priesthood while white young men are still being ordained? Around and around we go!!! IHS jim

[Russianwolfe]

Mormonism is pretending to be a sect of Christianity and yet it has as many as 200 splinter groups. See the whole list at http://4mormon.org/mormon-splinter-groups.php

No Christian denomination has torn it's self into so many pieces as mormonism has over the years..


Sorry, but you still claim as brothers the thousands of sects of Christianity. This is the difference between you and us. They are not part of us and to make that perfectly clear we have excommunicated them. No, you are in a fantasy land thinking that you are better than us. You have far more divisions in what you call Christianity.



WOW, do you misunderstand.. And every time I have said that I have aid that in God's sight or before God.. He is not subject to time and sees the cross as being present.. We are finite and see it only in the past.. You don't understand, I am not surprised..


And you have nothing from the Bible to say that God is outside of space and time. This is the opinions that you attempt to make us believe is Biblical. It is not Biblical.

And nothing from here on in this post needs to be commented on. You are stating opinion and have drifted away from the subject of this post.

Marvin




I agree.. They are all flawed men capable of error.. That is why it is so important to listen to them and then go to the scripture and check on their teaching to see it it is the truth.. Only in that way can a believer be seen as honorable ( Acts 17:10-11).. Just because a Pastor says something doesn't mean that it above being tested by the word of GOD.



Do you know what the word we translate from the Hebrew for Hell is? It's Sheol.. It literally means the grave.. Are you going to tell me that Jesus didn't descend into the grave? Jesus is taught in the scripture as being sealed in a grave.. You are WRONG again because you don't seem to know or understand the scripture.. I have an interpretation of the Scripture in :

Eph 4:8
Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
Who is this captivity that Jesus led captive? Even mormon doctrine calls Abraham's bosom prison. At least the part across the gulf.. So yes it's an interpretation and I haven't used it in thee discussions because of that.. But just because Joseph Smith made up his own biblical interpretations that even deny the interpretation God gave for p***ages that are embedded right in the text doesn't mean that Christians commit the same sin..




Do you now? I have seen some on here insist that some river in South or Central America IS one of the rivers refereed to in the BofM.. He has pointed to LDS teachers that hold that position.. But what is the official comment from the LDS church? They will not confirm any site in the Americas as a BofM site.. They won't confirm the alters what have the initials NHM on them as a BofM site. They will not point to any oasis on the Gulf of Aqaba.. And yet on here these things are given as evidence for the BofM..



If that so? Then why is it that so few LDS (especially LDS women) believe that one must be a polygamist (at least of the heart) in order to gain exaltation? That was the word of BY, just ask Richard he will confirm that.. Seems that the LDS church spins on doctrine on any point that makes it hard to be LDS. Are blacks being given the priesthood while white young men are still being ordained? Around and around we go!!! IHS jim

[Billyray]

No, you are in a fantasy land thinking that you are better than us. You have far more divisions in what you call Christianity.

And who do you think will be better off in the end? Those who are members of different denominations who believe in the true God and true gospel of the Bible OR you who is a member of a unified group of believers in false doctrine?

[TheSword99]

Mormonism is pretending to be a sect of Christianity and yet it has as many as 200 splinter groups. See the whole list at http://4mormon.org/mormon-splinter-groups.php

No Christian denomination has torn it's self into so many pieces as mormonism has over the years..



IHS jim

Good Post! What the lds doesn't seem to understand is that many of the other christian denominations hold to the same creed. They share the same doctrine of God and Jesus Christ. They have unity in the essentials but liberty in the non essentials.

[TheSword99]

If that so? Then why is it that so few LDS (especially LDS women) believe that one must be a polygamist (at least of the heart) in order to gain exaltation? That was the word of BY, just ask Richard he will confirm that.. Seems that the LDS church spins on doctrine on any point that makes it hard to be LDS. Are blacks being given the priesthood while white young men are still being ordained? Around and around we go!!! IHS jim

This is the ever changing world of Mormonism. They toss out at liberty many teachings of past leaders. What these leaders taught are now being called "opinions." Try and pin the lds down on a specific teaching and you will be told it isn't "official" doctrine.

Christians have a more sure word of Truth, the Holy Scriptures. There we find truth. We find truth about God, Jesus Christ and salvation. These doctrines are so clear that it makes no sense for a christian group not to have "official" doctrines.

[TheSword99]

And who do you think will be better off in the end? Those who are members of different denominations who believe in the true God and true gospel of the Bible OR you who is a member of a unified group of believers in false doctrine?

Good post! The cults think they alone are the One True Church because they have unification. Look at the JWs for example. They believe they alone have eternal salvation and the rest of us are doomed. That's not what Jesus said. Jesus said all who come to Him with a humble and contrite heart and confess Him as Lord and Savior will find eternal life and will by no wise be cast out. Nothing and no one can snatch these true believers from His hand.

[James Banta]

[Russianwolfe;74600]Sorry, but you still claim as brothers the thousands of sects of Christianity. This is the difference between you and us. They are not part of us and to make that perfectly clear we have excommunicated them. No, you are in a fantasy land thinking that you are better than us. You have far more divisions in what you call Christianity.

I claim that anyone that believes Jesus is the Child that was born for us, the Son that was given who is the Mighty God the everlasting Father. That He lived among us was tempted in every way we are yet was without sin. That he was betrayed condemned crucified shedding His blood as an atonement for sin, being laid in a tomb and on the third day raising for our justification.. That He, the Father, and the Holy Spirit are the one and only God that has ever been or ever will be.. Any that believe these Biblical truths about God and have become His children by faith in Jesus are part of the Church. Added to Her by Jesus Himself without the permission or action of any man through or by their invented authority.. All such as these are my brothers and sisters.

All those that accept the BofM as the word of God, that believe Joseph Smith to be a prophet. Those that believe the perversions Smith taught about the Bible and the nature of God. These are part of you whether you like it or not.. In fact they follow the teachings of Joseph Smith more closely than you do.. Your church sold it's sacred doctrines for money! It gave into the laws of men (the United States) over polygamy so as to retain ownership of lands and buildings instead of allowing the government to have it's property so that it could continue living as they believe God had commanded.. The Salt Lake LDS church is a sellout so that property wasn't lost.. Such action is not commendable before man or God..

If a person denies that God is the eternal God, the God that has been God from everlasting and will be the only God to everlasting.. Any one that believes that through their own efforts they can make themselves acceptable to God is a cultist and not a Christian, not a child of the Most High.. Mormonism is such a people..



And you have nothing from the Bible to say that God is outside of space and time. This is the opinions that you attempt to make us believe is Biblical. It is not Biblical.

There is an uninformed blind statement.. When did Jesus say he existed? He said clearly that before Abraham was "I AM" (John:8:58). The fact that God gave Moses the name "I AM" to tell him who He is, is very telling.. God didn't say I was, or I will be.. In John 8:58 Jesus really explained the meaning to that word.. He is always present.. The only way you missed this, the only way you don't understand this is because you won't listen to the Holy Spirit as He teaches His word to His Children.. UNLESS, you aren't His child..


And nothing from here on in this post needs to be commented on. You are stating opinion and have drifted away from the subject of this post.

I agree I am merely following where you have taken this thread.. All my post are based on your comments.. I again have invented nothing.. IHS jim

[ErikErik]

And you have nothing from the Bible to say that God is outside of space and time. This is the opinions that you attempt to make us believe is Biblical. It is not Biblical.



Marvin
Not true. The Bible says that to God a thousand years is like a day and a day is like a thousand years. 2 Peter 3:8

The Bible also says God stretches out the heavens like a canopy.

The Bible says God is present everywhere. Read the Psalms 139:

O lord, thou hast searched me, and known me.

2Thou knowest my downsitting and mine uprising, thou understandest my thought afar off.

3Thou comp***est my path and my lying down, and art acquainted with all my ways.

4For there is not a word in my tongue, but, lo, O LORD, thou knowest it altogether.

5Thou hast beset me behind and before, and laid thine hand upon me.

6Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is high, I cannot attain unto it.

7Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?

8If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.

[James Banta]

I have to remove your words for the response is too lone.. To get the flow properly refer back to your post..

I have quoted or referenced the Scripture in 95% of my posts while you have done so in about 5% of yours and when you do you take it is out of contents.. Look below at what you have said about the p***age in Ezek 37.. The interpretation is given by God right there in the p***age but that wasn't good enough for you.. You have to redefine what a stick is, and then deny that God tells us right there in the p***age that the two nations of Israel were going to be reunited at one.. Nope not mormonism it has to invent it's own private interpretation. What I believe this p***age to teach is written right there in the text.. What you believe is the rant of Joseph Smith a proven liar.. And you want to believe him? WHY?

1. Calling people names, words that aren't even allowed to appear is the text is something I have seen people banned for doing.. I will have to report it..
2. I have taught nothing hat isn't found in the Bible.. You on the other hand have taken a private interpretation not included in the text and accept it over and above what the Bible teaches.. Invented interpretations are private and support only myth as being myth..

As long as you think we can sin all we want, as in intentionally sin, please don't call yourself a christian because you're lying to yourself. That verse is not saying we are not to do good works. That's another example of you pulling one verse out to fit how YOU believe, not how the Bible teaches. That verse in particular is talking about baptism. Keep reading through verse 8. :)

1 Cor 6:1-8
A Christian should never take another Christian to court before the law..
9-11
We were all sinner but now we have been washed, sanctified and justified in the name of Jesus by the Holy Spirit..
12-14
All thing are lawful to the believer but all things are not expedient
15-20
A short list of things that are not expedient a child of God should not become involved in. We are the temple of God not the house of filth.. We are bought with a price (the blood of Jesus) so we should glorify God..

Where in all that does it say that we have to earn our salvation.. It doesn't it say He did it all.. He bought us for His glory.. We didn't earn our salvation by not committing fornication..

By today's standard there are many errors in grammar in the KJV of the Bible.. It was translated in 1611.. English in a living language and therefore it changes.. The ancient text the Bible is written in are dead languages, meaning no one uses them therefore they don't change.. No one retranslated the KJV of the Bible doing away with the former because we were embarr***ed by the wording used..

The italics used in the KJV and the NAS are there to allow people to know that those were are NOT in the original text but were added to allow the reading to flow more naturally in English.. In that way noting is hidden from the reader and the words added are not considered to be of divine origin.. That is an action of total honesty. In p***ages of the BofM that quote from the Bible those words are included without comment.. Who is being dishonest here?

If Polygamy was really abolished why then is the 132nd section of the D&C still included in the standard works? Why not drop it and replace it with the 1835 section 101 on marriage that teaches:

Inasmuch as this church of Christ has been reproached with the crime of fornication, and polygamy: we declare that we believe, that one man should have one wife; and one woman, but one husband, except in the case of death, when either is at liberty to marry again. (1835 D&C Section 101:4)
The reason it hasn't been it because polygamy is still an important doctrine in mormonism.. The ONLY reason it isn't practiced today is because the US Federal government threatened to attach all church property valued over $50,000 if the practice wasn't stopped.. The LDS church gave up this important doctrine a commandment from their God so they cold protect the church's wealth.. That is the ONLY REASON..

The LDS church teaches a perversion of the Gospel. Taking the work and glory away from God and claiming it through their good works for themselves.. That is outside the teachings of Jesus as He explained that if we would believe in Him we should be given eternal life (John 3:16)..

A lot of Bible verses? I saw you reference 1 Cor 6 and Ezek 37.. Reference not quote.. You gave a private interpretation of both when clearly the interpretation is right there inside the context for anyone to see. You gave nothing that would make anyone even wonder if youe were right much less be convinced of your church's claim to being the only truth.. You are right there is ONLY ONE TRUTH.. That truth is Jesus.. You don't need any made to offer baptism into Him or any authority for the Holy Spirit to endwell you.. All you must have is faith in Him and He will do the rest.. I saw your clear denial of that Biblical fact and therefore I can say without any hesitation you are NOT of Him, not His child, and not a member of His Church..

I know that the Bible is God's message to mankind.. If a doctrine doesn't fit into it's teaching that doctrine is NOT of God..
The Bible teaches as you have shown that the Father is God.. Granted.. The Bible also says that Jesus is God
Isaiah 9:6
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 8:58
Jesus said unto them, Verily,verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.Jesus said unto them, Verily,verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
Rev 1:8
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
At the same time the Bible is clear that there is ONE GOD:
Isaiah 43:10
Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
Isaiah 44:8
Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.
Deut 6:4 as confirmed by Jesus in Mark 12:29
Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord..
Is it I that is in denial of the scriptures of it is mormonism that has lied to and convinced it's believers that there is more than one God?

This statement is proof positive that you are denying he vast scripture base that point to the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as being God.. But as the scripture also insists just One God. Each that manifests a fullness of the one true God.

Just my point mormonism is NOT God's church in any way shape or form..

The prophets of the OT were 100% right.. Even the prophecy against Tyre was true.. Babylon destroyed her completely and the people had to run from his might.. The city was 100% raised by Him.. The Greeks came in later and destroyed even their hiding place but the city of Tyre was destroyed by Babylon.. The prophets of the Bible were 100% true.. I know the Bible doesn't say that Jonah said that Nineveh had to repent but the strange thing is they knew to do so.. It must have been in the message.. Again 100% correct.. Smith was just wrong again and again..

Jesus is the last prophet that was to speak to the whole Church for God (Heb 1:1-2).. There are some even today that have the spiritual gift of prophecy but say nothing in way of new doctrines or messages of God for the Church.. Jesus did it all, Paul fully preached it (John 19:30, Romans 15:19).. He has given us teachers than have learned His message and bring it to us that we may grown in Him.. But the work and the message of God are complete in Jesus..

My standard? Sorry but I use the Bibles standard. From
Deut 18:20-22
But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die.
And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the LORD hath not spoken?
When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to p***, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.

Where do you find that I wrote this p***age of the Bible? That is the Biblical standard not mine.. All the biblical Prophets p***ed this test.. Smith failed!

If the Law of Moses is said to enslave the people under it.. How could Smith's measure of Law like the 89th section of the D&D or the insistence on a ***he not be enslaving as well? All law is an enslavement if it is a measure of a persons worthiness for salvation.. I have given you the words of the Holy Spirit (God) through Paul that confirm these words.. All you come back with is a IS SO, IS NOT argument.. That is meaningless.. If you like Paul are saved only by the grace of God as is said agai and again in the scripture then try to hold back your ***he.. Or better yet give it to worthy charities and see if they still see you as temple worthy.. IHS jim

[Russianwolfe]

You have presented nothing that says that God is beyond space and time. All of your references are from men who know nothing beyond this earth. Any statements by them are bound to this earth and do not escape their limitations.

No, you have not provided any evidence that God is beyond space and time.

When I was on my mission in Scotland, I was ***igned to an area where they were constructing one of the platforms that would eventually be towed out to the North Sea and pump oil. I stood at the top of a cliff overlooking the beach where the construction was going on. As I observed the activity, I saw trucks that looked like they were out of a matchbox series driving around the construction. When I saw this, I was impressed that this was a construction that man had designed and it would be lifeless and cold when finished. But God when he designs something, it will be full of life and warm and will go on and fulfill the measure of its creation and bring greater glory and honor to God. It doesn't require a God who is beyond space and time to create living things that bring honor and glory to himself.

Marvin



Not true. The Bible says that to God a thousand years is like a day and a day is like a thousand years. 2 Peter 3:8

The Bible also says God stretches out the heavens like a canopy.

The Bible says God is present everywhere. Read the Psalms 139:

O lord, thou hast searched me, and known me.

2Thou knowest my downsitting and mine uprising, thou understandest my thought afar off.

3Thou comp***est my path and my lying down, and art acquainted with all my ways.

4For there is not a word in my tongue, but, lo, O LORD, thou knowest it altogether.

5Thou hast beset me behind and before, and laid thine hand upon me.

6Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is high, I cannot attain unto it.

7Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?

8If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.

[James Banta]

You have presented nothing that says that God is beyond space and time. All of your references are from men who know nothing beyond this earth. Any statements by them are bound to this earth and do not escape their limitations.

No, you have not provided any evidence that God is beyond space and time.

When I was on my mission in Scotland, I was ***igned to an area where they were constructing one of the platforms that would eventually be towed out to the North Sea and pump oil. I stood at the top of a cliff overlooking the beach where the construction was going on. As I observed the activity, I saw trucks that looked like they were out of a matchbox series driving around the construction. When I saw this, I was impressed that this was a construction that man had designed and it would be lifeless and cold when finished. But God when he designs something, it will be full of life and warm and will go on and fulfill the measure of its creation and bring greater glory and honor to God. It doesn't require a God who is beyond space and time to create living things that bring honor and glory to himself.

Marvin

No, Jesus being present before Abraham existed doesn't confirm that He is outside time and space? Do you any idea how Jesus could do this? Or is this one part of the scripture you try not to think about?

Mankind is part of the creation God take glory in.. All things were created by God to His glory not to bring glory to his creation.. Even Smith recognized that fact before he went totally mad.. He said it is God's glory to bring about the immortality and eternal life of man.. His glory not ours.. IHS jim

[ErikErik]

You have presented nothing that says that God is beyond space and time. All of your references are from men who know nothing beyond this earth. Any statements by them are bound to this earth and do not escape their limitations.

No, you have not provided any evidence that God is beyond space and time.

When I was on my mission in Scotland, I was ***igned to an area where they were constructing one of the platforms that would eventually be towed out to the North Sea and pump oil. I stood at the top of a cliff overlooking the beach where the construction was going on. As I observed the activity, I saw trucks that looked like they were out of a matchbox series driving around the construction. When I saw this, I was impressed that this was a construction that man had designed and it would be lifeless and cold when finished. But God when he designs something, it will be full of life and warm and will go on and fulfill the measure of its creation and bring greater glory and honor to God. It doesn't require a God who is beyond space and time to create living things that bring honor and glory to himself.

Marvin

I gave you the Scripture. Of course you reject it. For an lds to admit that God is outside of space and time would mean he/she would have to admit that Mormonism is false.

Please explain how God can stretch the entire heavens. Can any human do that?

Please explain how a thousand years is like a day for God.

This isn't man's opinion. This is the WORD OF GOD. If you can't accept it than you know nothing about God's true nature. He is a spirit. He is not a man, never was a man. You have done what the bible accuses; you have made God into the image of corruptible man. Romans 1:23

[Russianwolfe]

No, Jesus being present before Abraham existed doesn't confirm that He is outside time and space? Do you any idea how Jesus could do this? Or is this one part of the scripture you try not to think about?

Mankind is part of the creation God take glory in.. All things were created by God to His glory not to bring glory to his creation.. Even Smith recognized that fact before he went totally mad.. He said it is God's glory to bring about the immortality and eternal life of man.. His glory not ours.. IHS jim

It is very easy for Christ to be alive at the time of Abraham and at the time of Peter, James, and John. He existed before the world was created, the lamb slain before the world. Or as John 1:1 says


John 1:1 In the beginning [when the world was created]was the Word [Christ], and the Word [Christ] was with God [the Father], and the Word [Christ] was God [the Son].

Don't you believe that Christ created the world and everything on it? How could Christ have created the world before man was created if he didn't exist at that time.

No, Christ is not beyond space and time. And he doesn't need to be if he created the world.

All you have is some sci-fi belief system you cooked up for some reason. It isn't true and doesn't have to be true. Christ exists in the same space/time that we do.

And you have the quote from the Book of Moses wrong.


Moses 1:39 For behold, this is my work and my glory—to bring to p*** the immortality and eternal life of man.

It is not just the glory of God but his work. That is a significant difference from what you referred to.

And for a mad man Joseph Smith accomplished more than most men do in a life time. And his legacy is still going on. How many men who died in or around 1840 can you point to who still have a legacy that is still growing today? Mad man is not the proper reference to him. Prophet of God is the proper reference. All he did was at the direction of God and that is why his legacy is still going on today.

Marvin

[Russianwolfe]

I gave you the Scripture. Of course you reject it. For an lds to admit that God is outside of space and time would mean he/she would have to admit that Mormonism is false.


No, all I have to do is look at what you have said and it is obviously false. Being outside of space and time is not a concept any of the ancient could concieve of. To attempt to quote any of them is to wrest the scriptures out of context both linguistically and culturally.




Please explain how God can stretch the entire heavens. Can any human do that?



Why does God's capabilities have to be within the capabilities of man? Are you lowering God so that you can understand him? I gave you an example the things that man has built and how it inspired me to understand the majesty and glory of the creations of God. If God can create the earth how can he not create all the other things that we have seen in the pictures from the Hubble Telescope?

I think when the scripture says that God stretched the heavens, it was talking about the creation process. Don't even try to liken this scripture of ancient cosmoslogy to modern cosmology. That would be a contextual error of galatic proportions.




Please explain how a thousand years is like a day for God.



God is immortal and thus he measures time differently than we do. Our lives are limited to less than 100 years and we have to measure them in days, weeks, months, years, and decades. And the measure of one days activities for God would cover a span of 1,000 years for us. Why is that a problem? A second is a second, no matter who is counting them. God just strings more seconds together before he calls a division than we do.

If 1,000 years of our time is one day to God then 500 years is just half a day or 12 hours. Half of that, 6 hours, would be 250 years. Half of that, 3 hours, is 125 years. Half of that, 1.5 hours, is 62.50 years. What is man that his life of about 1.5 hours God is mindful of? We are his sons and daughters who he loved before when he first loved us. And his work and his glory is to help us become like him so we can be as happy as he is and live the life that he lives.




This isn't man's opinion. This is the WORD OF GOD.


It is your misunderstanding of the WORD OF GOD. I have provided some very simple explanations of the verses you referred to and have shown how all can be accomplished without God being beyond space and time.



If you can't accept it than you know nothing about God's true nature.


Actually, if you think that is true, then you imagine a God who does not exist. There is no God beyond space and time. That God does not exist. The Bible does not reference any concept that is beyond space and time. To believe this you have to imagine a God of this kind and twist logic into a pretzel and take statements out of linguistic and cultural context to imagine such a fantastic God, a God which cannot and does not exist.



He is a spirit.


And what is spirit. Please tell me. The Bible doesn't give us any idea of what spirit is, only what it is not. And that is no help. When you say God is a spirit, you have said nothing. The Bible does not tell us what spirit is so how can you? Are you greater than the Bible? Are you equal with God that you can tell us what the Bible does not?



He is not a man, never was a man.


And yet you believe there is only one God and you believe that Christ is God and you believe that Christ was born as a man is born, lived as a man lives, and died as a man dies but was resurrected as only the Son of God could be resurrected and yet you tell me God was not a man? You contradict yourself and make yourself to be a li-ar. Christ was a man, a perfect man, and lived a perfect life and set the example for us to follow. And it is through his resurrection that we all have hope of a resurrection. Christ was a perfect man and for you to say that God was never a man is to say that Christ never existed. What does that make you????????



You have done what the bible accuses; you have made God into the image of corruptible man. Romans 1:23

I think you are guilty of the greater crime, you have make up a God, fantasized a God who cannot exist because the Bible never says anything about this God you have imagined to yourself. You serve a God made of man thoughts, who cares nothing for you, and will not save you at the last day. Fantasy are like that. At some point, reality destroys your fantasy if you let your fantasy replace reality.

Marvin

[James Banta]

[Russianwolfe;74631]It is very easy for Christ to be alive at the time of Abraham and at the time of Peter, James, and John. He existed before the world was created, the lamb slain before the world. Or as John 1:1 says

Don't you believe that Christ created the world and everything on it? How could Christ have created the world before man was created if he didn't exist at that time.

No, Christ is not beyond space and time. And he doesn't need to be if he created the world.

All you have is some sci-fi belief system you cooked up for some reason. It isn't true and doesn't have to be true. Christ exists in the same space/time that we do.

I find it "interesting" that someone like you that requires proof of what a spirit is, would miss what Jesus said about His divinity in John 8:58.. Jesus didn't say that He was before Abraham.. No, He said that He IS before Abraham.. Your weak explanation doesn't address the presence that is a divine attribute, an attribute found in nothing and no one but God.. That is Why God (Jesus) used it on Mt Sinai as He gave the Law to Moses, and why we used it again in this portion of the scripture.. He was claiming to be God.. If you take the verse as it is written my explanation of the nature of Jesus is the only explanation that makes any sense at all..


It is not just the glory of God but his work. That is a significant difference from what you referred to.

And for a mad man Joseph Smith accomplished more than most men do in a life time. And his legacy is still going on. How many men who died in or around 1840 can you point to who still have a legacy that is still growing today? Mad man is not the proper reference to him. Prophet of God is the proper reference. All he did was at the direction of God and that is why his legacy is still going on today.

No man, not Smith, not you, and not me has anything to do with the the immortality or eternal life of mankind.. Just like Smith taught in this p***age (And I use it because in it you find authority, even over Biblical authority) That it is God's work.. Not ours! I believe you missed the point there too.. Come on Marvin you keep telling me how dumb I am and how smart you are.. Do try to keep up.. IHS jim

[Russianwolfe]

I find it "interesting" that someone like you that requires proof of what a spirit is,


Who said anything about proof. I am looking for what the Bible says about spirit and no one has provided even one verse that tells us what a spirit is. So, all I am asking is what is the Biblical teaching about spirit and no one has been able to tell me. Is that asking for proof? I don't think so. It is more like trying not to believe something that isn't true and looking to the Bible for an understanding of what spirit is.




would miss what Jesus said about His divinity in John 8:58.. Jesus didn't say that He was before Abraham.. No, He said that He IS before Abraham..


John 8:58Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

From what I have learned, this 'I am' also means 'self-existent' which says that God exists by himself and is dependent on no one. We, on the other hand, depend on God for our existence. I don't think anyone in ancient times ever had a thought that this would mean that God or Christ exists in all times at all times. They didn't see time as you or I do. So your belief wouldn't make sense to them.



Your weak explanation doesn't address the presence that is a divine attribute, an attribute found in nothing and no one but God..


And is not mentioned in the Bible either. You have to create a private interpretation to get to this belief. And Peter said that was wrong.



That is Why God (Jesus) used it on Mt Sinai as He gave the Law to Moses, and why we used it again in this portion of the scripture.. He was claiming to be God.. If you take the verse as it is written my explanation of the nature of Jesus is the only explanation that makes any sense at all..



Sorry, but I gave you explanations that don't violate the cultural context of the Bible let alone the logical sense of the scriptures. You have imagined a God to yourself that cannot be supported by scripture except by a private interpretation.



No man, not Smith, not you, and not me has anything to do with the the immortality or eternal life of mankind..


Never said we do. That is God's doing.



Just like Smith taught in this p***age (And I use it because in it you find authority, even over Biblical authority) That it is God's work.. Not ours! I believe you missed the point there too.. Come on Marvin you keep telling me how dumb I am and how smart you are.. Do try to keep up.. IHS jim

I question your understanding of the Bible and your creative beliefs as I should do based on Peter's advice on avoiding private interpretations.

I am rather old and I might miss somethings at times. Thanks for the heads up. Let me know if I miss anything else, will you?

Marvin

[James Banta]

[Russianwolfe;74673]Who said anything about proof. I am looking for what the Bible says about spirit and no one has provided even one verse that tells us what a spirit is. So, all I am asking is what is the Biblical teaching about spirit and no one has been able to tell me. Is that asking for proof? I don't think so. It is more like trying not to believe something that isn't true and looking to the Bible for an understanding of what spirit is.

And I told you that the Bible is limited in the description of what a spirit is.. If says that man has had one formed within him. It says that God is Spirit and that He is invisible. I have showed you that a spirit is an en***y without flesh and bone. I have told you all these things.. Still you insist that I haven't told you what the Bible says a spirit is.. Go figure..


From what I have learned, this 'I am' also means 'self-existent' which says that God exists by himself and is dependent on no one. We, on the other hand, depend on God for our existence. I don't think anyone in ancient times ever had a thought that this would mean that God or Christ exists in all times at all times. They didn't see time as you or I do. So your belief wouldn't make sense to them.

Yes I AM does men that God is self existent, uncreated. So why is it that mormonism denies that God is the I AM? What you think is at odds with other places where the Bible teaches about the nature of God.. You have seen this before verse. It agrees with the concept that I AM means that God is self existent and has Always been in existence:

Psalm 90:2
Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.


And is not mentioned in the Bible either. You have to create a private interpretation to get to this belief. And Peter said that was wrong.

Yeap, that means that the Psalmist had the same private interpretation of the nature of God I have.. And Peter disagrees? Can you point out where Peter holds a divergent doctrine about the eternal nature of God? No? I don't believe you can..


Sorry, but I gave you explanations that don't violate the cultural context of the Bible let alone the logical sense of the scriptures. You have imagined a God to yourself that cannot be supported by scripture except by a private interpretation.


I can't? I hold that God is Spirit. That He is the I AM, he self existent one. That He alone is God there was never a God formed before He was God and there has been none formed after He was God.. I hold that this God the Being who knows all things doesn't even know of any other Gods.. I agree with His word given directly to Moses that the Lord my God is One Lord.. All these doctrines that tell us about God's nature are denied in mormonism. As proof of that I hold up the words of your prophet Joseph Smith:
In order to understand the subject of the dead, for consolation of those who mourn for the loss of their friends, it is necessary we should understand the character and being of God and how He came to be so; for I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, and take away
the veil, so that you may see.

These are incomprehensible ideas to some, but they are simple. It is the first principle of the gospel to know for a certainty the character of God, and to know that we may converse with Him as one man converses with another, and that He was once a man like us; yea, that God Himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ Himself did; and I will show it from the Bible. (History of the Church, vol. 6, p. 305)

Sh He was on a world as man the same as Jesus was. That would mean that like Jesus, Smith is teaching, that He had Father in heaven like Jesus does.. A God above Him.. That excludes the idea that He is the I AM the self existent one, doesn't it. In short Smith taught a different God and therefore a different Jesus, and because a different Jesus a different gospel than what was delivered once and for all to the saints.. But you have the gall to tell me that I am not holding the true teaching of the Bible but only a perversion of what it teaches.. INCREDIBLE!


I question your understanding of the Bible and your creative beliefs as I should do based on Peter's advice on avoiding private interpretations.

If you find private interpretations to be wrong then why is it that mormonism teaches them as doctrine to support it's teachings.
1. God is Spirit.. No according to mormonism the proper interpretation is God has a Spirit..
2. Jesus is God.. Not completely right He is just a god, a creation of another God who is fact is a created being as well..
3. Before God there was no God form and there will be none after Him.. Meaning that the Father is the only God for this world (mormonism ignores the fact that Jesus is also God, even if only a god).
4. The sticks of Ezek 37 represent the two kingdom in Israel as God clearly gives as the correct interpretation right in the p***age.. No God is wrong and only Joseph Smith is right there are books. It doesn't matter than no where else in all the scripture are sticks called books. They are called BOOKS, or SCROLLS, but never sticks..
5. The learned man of Isaiah 29 can't read a sealed book.. The unlearned man can't read it because he is not learned.. No one can read the book.. Mormonism say that the learned man didn't read the book but that the unlearned man did.. Again is this not a private interpretation? YES!!
I make no interpretation that is outside the meaning of what the Bible actually teaches. I leave that to mormonism to do and it doesn't fail in holding such private interpretations!


I am rather old and I might miss somethings at times. Thanks for the heads up. Let me know if I miss anything else, will you?

I just did.. You are also missing the fact that we are children of the devil until we are reborn as Children of God (John 8:44).. That this rebirth is through faith in Jesus (John 1:12).. You are missing the Being and the Nature of God (John 4:24).. Yes you are missing a lot indeed..

IHS jim

[Russianwolfe]

And I told you that the Bible is limited in the description of what a spirit is.. If says that man has had one formed within him. It says that God is Spirit and that He is invisible. I have showed you that a spirit is an en***y without flesh and bone. I have told you all these things.. Still you insist that I haven't told you what the Bible says a spirit is.. Go figure..

You also say that God is completely different than us so that would mean that anything the Bible says about God does not apply to us, unless you are going to admit that God and man have something in common. If not, then what the Bible says about God cannot apply to us. Are man and God similar in some respects?

And I have told you and backed it up with scripture, that the apostles believed that a spirit could be seen and Christ did not correct that part of their belief. So you have yet to make a Biblical connection beween God being a spirit and God being invisible. I have explained that God is invisible by choice not by nature.


Yes I AM does men that God is self existent, uncreated.

Self-existent, yes. Uncreated, I don't know of any Bible verse that teaches this.


So why is it that mormonism denies that God is the I AM?

Who says we deny it? We might deny all the extras you have added it but we don't deny that God is self-existent.


What you think is at odds with other places where the Bible teaches about the nature of God.. You have seen this before verse. It agrees with the concept that I AM means that God is self existent and has Always been in existence:
Psalm 90:2

All scriptures start with the creation of the earth. The Bible does not concern itself with anything other than the earth. You have to remember that the author of Genesis did not see the universe as you and I do. If you do not consider this in your reading of the scriptures, you will not correctly understand what the authors of the Bible were trying to say.


Yeap, that means that the Psalmist had the same private interpretation of the nature of God I have..

No, you have misunderstood the psalmist because you think he see the universe as you do. He doesn't.


And Peter disagrees? Can you point out where Peter holds a divergent doctrine about the eternal nature of God? No? I don't believe you can..

Maybe I wasn't as clear as I thought. What Peter said was wrong was to have a private interpretation. If you don't make the attempt to see the world and the universe as the ancients did, you will not be able to understand correctly what they are trying to say.



I can't? I hold that God is Spirit. That He is the I AM, he self existent one. That He alone is God there was never a God formed before He was God and there has been none formed after He was God.. I hold that this God the Being who knows all things doesn't even know of any other Gods.. I agree with His word given directly to Moses that the Lord my God is One Lord.. All these doctrines that tell us about God's nature are denied in mormonism. As proof of that I hold up the words of your prophet Joseph Smith: (History of the Church, vol. 6, p. 305)

Sh He was on a world as man the same as Jesus was. That would mean that like Jesus, Smith is teaching, that He had Father in heaven like Jesus does.. A God above Him.. That excludes the idea that He is the I AM the self existent one, doesn't it. In short Smith taught a different God and therefore a different Jesus, and because a different Jesus a different gospel than what was delivered once and for all to the saints.. But you have the gall to tell me that I am not holding the true teaching of the Bible but only a perversion of what it teaches.. INCREDIBLE!

You add a lot to the scriptures that the authors wouldn't agree with.

I am quite aware of what you believe but I also am aware that much of the logic you use to reach those beliefs is based on a universe that is quite different from what the authors believed. They had no definition of infinite that you would recognize. Their understanding of everlasting is not the infinite you would want it to be. They did not believe in solar systems, galaxies, big bang, or orbits as you do. So they had a different understanding and that different understanding is what leads you to the errors that you have created for yourself.


If you find private interpretations to be wrong then why is it that mormonism teaches them as doctrine to support it's teachings.
1. God is Spirit.. No according to mormonism the proper interpretation is God has a Spirit..

An easily reached conclusion given the modern revelation we have today.


2. Jesus is God.. Not completely right He is just a god, a creation of another God who is fact is a created being as well..

No, you are incorrect. Jesus Christ is the only name under heaven where by man can be saved. There are other gods but they have no influence on our salvation. And if Christ had a father, why would a Heavenly Father have a father. Christ did teach us that there is a Heavenly Father. After all, he taught us to pray thusly, Our Father which art in Heaven. Was Christ lying?


3. Before God there was no God form and there will be none after Him.. Meaning that the Father is the only God for this world (mormonism ignores the fact that Jesus is also God, even if only a god).

Again, you misunderstand because you don't see things the way the ancients did. This is a comparison of importance not of exclusivity. The Bible also says that Babylon is the only city. Does that mean that Jerusalem did not exist? Hardly! It only mean that Babylon is preeminent among all the cities not that it is the only city. Just as the verse you cite means that God is preeminent among the gods that exist not that he is the only one. The fact that there are other gods is clear stated in Psalm 82.


4. The sticks of Ezek 37 represent the two kingdom in Israel as God clearly gives as the correct interpretation right in the p***age.. No God is wrong and only Joseph Smith is right there are books. It doesn't matter than no where else in all the scripture are sticks called books. They are called BOOKS, or SCROLLS, but never sticks..

If I am not mistaken the word that is translated as stick here only occurs here. Research has revealed that the word is the name of a writing instrument that consist of two wooden tablets coated in wax and joined together. Sticks was a best guess before the discovery of one of these tablets at the bottom of a well.

If you would examine the scroll more closely you would find that the objects in question are for the tribes which means that they do not represent the tribes. And our beliefs are that the stick of Joseph is the Book of Mormon and the stick of Judah is the Bible and that God has joined their testimonies together as a latter-day witness of God. Which seems to fit the scripture very well.


5. The learned man of Isaiah 29 can't read a sealed book.. The unlearned man can't read it because he is not learned.. No one can read the book.. Mormonism say that the learned man didn't read the book but that the unlearned man did.. Again is this not a private interpretation? YES!!

The unlearned man may not have had the secular education to read the book, but through the Spirit of God he can. After all, all things are possible through God. I have that much faith.


I make no interpretation that is outside the meaning of what the Bible actually teaches. I leave that to mormonism to do and it doesn't fail in holding such private interpretations!

We believe that we have modern scriptures to back up our beliefs. You might not share that belief but to say that we have beliefs based on private interpretations is wrong. If God has revealed more today than he did 2,000 years ago, we are fully justified to believe what we do.


I just did.. You are also missing the fact that we are children of the devil until we are reborn as Children of God (John 8:44).. That this rebirth is through faith in Jesus (John 1:12).. You are missing the Being and the Nature of God (John 4:24).. Yes you are missing a lot indeed..

So you are claiming that God has created children of the devil? Really? And here I am believing that God has created all things good. Isn't that what he said in Genesis?

My beliefs are quite a bit different. I believe that we are children of God but we have to learn obedience to God. One way to do that is we have to join the family of Abraham and we do that through baptism. We are not children of the devil. We are children of God and have a great potential that can only be realized through faith in Jesus Christ and by following his example.

We are children of God no matter whether we have been born again or not. We might be disobedient children but we are children of God nevertheless. But for the obedient children, God has promised more blessings than we can hold. Christ told us that if we have father of the flesh who give us good things, then how much better can our Father in Heaven bless us than they.

If we remain disobedient, then we are on our own. But in all cases we remain children of a loving God.

Marvin

[ErikErik]

Who said anything about proof. I am looking for what the Bible says about spirit and no one has provided even one verse that tells us what a spirit is. So, all I am asking is what is the Biblical teaching about spirit and no one has been able to tell me. Is that asking for proof? I don't think so. It is more like trying not to believe something that isn't true and looking to the Bible for an understanding of what spirit is.






From what I have learned, this 'I am' also means 'self-existent' which says that God exists by himself and is dependent on no one. We, on the other hand, depend on God for our existence. I don't think anyone in ancient times ever had a thought that this would mean that God or Christ exists in all times at all times. They didn't see time as you or I do. So your belief wouldn't make sense to them.



And is not mentioned in the Bible either. You have to create a private interpretation to get to this belief. And Peter said that was wrong.



Sorry, but I gave you explanations that don't violate the cultural context of the Bible let alone the logical sense of the scriptures. You have imagined a God to yourself that cannot be supported by scripture except by a private interpretation.



Never said we do. That is God's doing.



I question your understanding of the Bible and your creative beliefs as I should do based on Peter's advice on avoiding private interpretations.

I am rather old and I might miss somethings at times. Thanks for the heads up. Let me know if I miss anything else, will you?

Marvin


It isn't biblical reference that you want. You seem to want to see Christians struggle to search the Scriptures and give you specific answers. But you have shown time and again that NO ANSWER ever suffices. Round and round we go! If the bible isn't specific on a topic than we must leave it alone. A spirit is immaterial but YOU WILL NEVER BELIEVE THAT because your founder says he has a body of flesh and bone.

[Russianwolfe]

It isn't biblical reference that you want. You seem to want to see Christians struggle to search the Scriptures and give you specific answers. But you have shown time and again that NO ANSWER ever suffices. Round and round we go! If the bible isn't specific on a topic than we must leave it alone. A spirit is immaterial but YOU WILL NEVER BELIEVE THAT because your founder says he has a body of flesh and bone.

You claim that all of your beliefs are Bibically based. And yet when I ask a simple question like what a spirit is, you are unable to provide any verses that say what a spirit is. If the Bible doesn't say what a spirit is, then how can you claim your belief that a spirit is immaterial is Biblical? You have to look elsewhere for a definition of what a spirit is and that makes your belief that a spirit is immaterial unBiblical. It also means that all of your beliefs are not Biblical. If we examine more of your beliefs more carefully in light of what the Bible says, will we find more beliefs that you claim are Biblical but are not?

You might consider telling me what you believe and providing the scriptures to back that belief up rather than attempting to tell me what I believe or want. When you attempt to tell me, you are most often wrong, as you are in this case. All I am doing is asking a question that should be easy to answer especially with the scripture but so far you make it all the more difficult by attempting to tell me what I feel, what I want and what I believe. And you are so wrong. You can't read my mind as this post clearly demonstrates. Stick to the topic, and don't try to read my mind.

Marvin

[Billyray]

It also means that all of your beliefs are not Biblical.


That is the most illogical statement I have ever heard Marvin. You are really grasping for straws at this point. It must be frustrating trying to defend a lie.

[ErikErik]

You claim that all of your beliefs are Bibically based. And yet when I ask a simple question like what a spirit is, you are unable to provide any verses that say what a spirit is. If the Bible doesn't say what a spirit is, then how can you claim your belief that a spirit is immaterial is Biblical? You have to look elsewhere for a definition of what a spirit is and that makes your belief that a spirit is immaterial unBiblical. It also means that all of your beliefs are not Biblical. If we examine more of your beliefs more carefully in light of what the Bible says, will we find more beliefs that you claim are Biblical but are not?

Marvin
We have answered you..over and over. But you will not hear it it because to do so would mean admitting that Mormonism is false. We go through this with you every time Marvin on other threads. We quote Scriptures over and over and still you say we give you no biblical references.

Its getting old and tiring. I can only repeat what I have said before: You want mormonism more than you want Truth. God's word is TRUTH

[Russianwolfe]

We have answered you..over and over. But you will not hear it it because to do so would mean admitting that Mormonism is false. We go through this with you every time Marvin on other threads. We quote Scriptures over and over and still you say we give you no biblical references.

Its getting old and tiring. I can only repeat what I have said before: You want mormonism more than you want Truth. God's word is TRUTH

Maybe you should tire of speaking falsehoods more quickly.

No one has answered my questions because they can provide no Bible verses to support their doctrine.

What you go through on the other threads, Erik, is an inability to remain focused on the topic of the thread and to provide clear scriptures to answer the questions I have posed.

On the question of spirit, you have provided no scriptures as to what spirit is, only what it is not. Saying God is spirit does not tell us what spirit is. You believe it tells you that God is spirit but that is not the same as telling you what spirit is. For example, if you want to know what a Christian is, saying the I am not a Christian doesn't tell you what a Christian is. That is all you have done with spirit. I am amazed that someone who claims to base his beliefs on what the Bible says, is so willing to believe something that is not in the Bible.

I want the truth and so far you are failing to provide any scriptures to back up your beliefs. Mostly what I am learning is that Biblical beliefs includes a lot of things that aren't Biblical.

Marvin

[Billyray]

Maybe you should tire of speaking falsehoods more quickly.

Marvin you are so indoctrinated in your false religion you don't know up from down anymore.



No one has answered my questions because they can provide no Bible verses to support their doctrine.

Marvin we have all answered your questions. You are simply blinded to the information given to you.

[TheSword99]

I want the truth and so far you are failing to provide any scriptures to back up your beliefs. Mostly what I am learning is that Biblical beliefs includes a lot of things that aren't Biblical.

Marvin

You are like doubting Thomas who refused to believe unless he could touch the wounds on Christ's body. Nothing anyone could say would convince him. Jesus said more blessed are those who have not seen and yet believe. Faith is what pleases God. Atheists refuse to believe. They are always asking for proof and more proof. Many of them read the Bible and still don't believe no matter how many times the evidence is given. They DON"T want to believe.

You have been given the scriptures where God Himself said no man can see me and live. You have been given the scriptures where God the Son said no man has seen the Father at anytime, but the SON. You have been given the scriptures which refers to God as invisible, immortal, eternal. God obviously cannot be seen. You either accept this or call God out as bring untruthful. Which is it?

It seems you do not want these scriptures to mean what they do because they conflict with what your church has taught you. This is why you are struggling with this.

You have been well indoctrinated in Mormonism, that you read the Holy Scriptures through mormon beliefs instead of letting God speak for Himself. Let scripture interpret scripture. .

[BigJulie]

And if you go back, you can even see which Mormons have been banned from this site.

[James Banta]

And if you go back, you can even see which Mormons have been banned from this site.

There have been a few, most have just left.. Like you have a few times now.. IHS jim