Good Example of Double-Speak

[Sir]

"Nor can we earn forgiveness. It is freely given to those who repent and follow Jesus Christ and teach HIS Gospel."

This is the kind of statement that makes me, a Mormon, laugh a little and makes me wonder why critics of the LDS church have such a disdain for the LDS view of the 'requirements' for salvation.

Here we see that in one breath, a mainstream Christian will say we can do NOTHING to earn forgiveness, but then next gives the conditions that have to be met to basically 'earn' the forgiveness. It's completely transparent. It's like my employer saying that I cannot earn my paycheck, it is freely given to me if I show up and do my ***.

LOL

[Billyray]

This is the kind of statement that makes me, a Mormon, laugh a little and makes me wonder why critics of the LDS church have such a disdain for the LDS view of the 'requirements' for salvation.

Here we see that in one breath, a mainstream Christian will say we can do NOTHING to earn forgiveness, but then next gives the conditions that have to be met to basically 'earn' the forgiveness. It's completely transparent. It's like my employer saying that I cannot earn my paycheck, it is freely given to me if I show up and do my ***.

LOL
What was done to earn it?

[Sir]

What was done to earn it?

According to the OP, in order to 'earn' it, one "must repent and follow Jesus Christ and teach HIS gospel".

I realize this might be a little difficult for some people to understand. :p

[Billyray]

According to the OP, in order to 'earn' it, one "must repent and follow Jesus Christ and teach HIS gospel".

I realize this might be a little difficult for some people to understand. :p
Born Again (regeneration) is an act of God and God alone. After a person is regenerated this leads the person to conversion BECAUSE he was born again. Conversion in repentance and faith in Christ. Repentance means turning away from your old ways. I don't see the works involved that you speak of. Enlighten me.

[Sir]

Born Again (regeneration) is an act of God and God alone. After a person is regenerated this leads the person to conversion BECAUSE he was born again. Conversion in repentance and faith in Christ. Repentance means turning away from your old ways. I don't see the works involved that you speak of. Enlighten me.

I know you don't. You believe we are all simply robots and only the ones that God chooses to program will get the prize.

But according to the OP, one must follow Jesus ald also teach his gospel. Follow and teach are verbs; action words; apparently to describe acts that must be done to receive the freely given forgiveness. Logic dictates that those actions are done by the people, but I understand your POV that those people are only doing what God has programmed them to do and thus your logic is that it is really God doing the works via his little predestined and select drones/ robots.

[Billyray]

God has programmed them
Define what you mean by programmed.

[Billyray]

apparently to describe acts that must be done to receive the freely given forgiveness.

Forgiveness is based on faith in Christ (Justification by faith). There isn't anything that we can do to earn it. It would be like you paying off a million dollar house for a friend and then that friend offering to buy you lunch to earn what you did for him.

[theway]

Forgiveness is based on faith in Christ (Justification by faith). There isn't anything that we can do to earn it. It would be like you paying off a million dollar house for a friend and then that friend offering to buy you lunch to earn what you did for him.But that's nothing but circular logic, since most critics will tell you that God gives us our faith also.

[Billyray]

But that's nothing but circular logic, since most critics will tell you that God gives us our faith also.

Regeneration (born again) ====> Conversion (repentance and faith)


Thus faith comes after regeneration. So it is fair to say that faith ultimately comes from God because without regeneration a person would not have faith.

[bert10]

Promises of GOD are predicated on conditions. I will give you some example that are quite clear in the New Testament.

When are all things possible? Only for them that believeth. Fulfill the condition of truly believing then all things are possible to that individual.

Mark 9:23 - Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things [are] possible to him that believeth.

Here is another that you have probably read but not have understood very well....Notice in the verse below ...the condition and the fulfillment of it..is also given...

John 7:38 - He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

Now this is easy part for Christ has never reneged on a promise......so when church leaders do not have rivers of living waters flowing from their belly the only reason...possible is that they do not BELIEVE ON CHRIST as the Scriptures HATH SAID.

I have used only two examples in trying to explain to you how things work...and also how the covenant of GOD which is the Covenant given to Abraham, ISaac and Jacob also works with men.

On one side of the covenant, God has His Gifts and promises...and on the other side of the covenant is the fulfillment of the conditions of GOD before men can receive righteously the things of GOD.

The Gifts of GOD we cannot earn directly. We must fulfill the conditions upon which the promises are predicated and then with faith we can receive them. For God does not bestow the powers of heaven on people who have not been tested and qualified in order to receive them.

If you have problems then re-read the first two examples and see for yourself the wonderful things that GOD promised are based on conditions.

It is not the works that counts...it is the change brought within us because of the works.

Do you understand the difference now.

It is not the works of Repentance that brings remission of sins...but the change in us brought about by the works.

bert10



This is the kind of statement that makes me, a Mormon, laugh a little and makes me wonder why critics of the LDS church have such a disdain for the LDS view of the 'requirements' for salvation.

Here we see that in one breath, a mainstream Christian will say we can do NOTHING to earn forgiveness, but then next gives the conditions that have to be met to basically 'earn' the forgiveness. It's completely transparent. It's like my employer saying that I cannot earn my paycheck, it is freely given to me if I show up and do my ***.


LOL

[Sir]

Promises of GOD are predicated on conditions. I will give you some example that are quite clear in the New Testament.

When are all things possible? Only for them that believeth. Fulfill the condition of truly believing then all things are possible to that individual.

Mark 9:23 - Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things [are] possible to him that believeth.

Here is another that you have probably read but not have understood very well....Notice in the verse below ...the condition and the fulfillment of it..is also given...

John 7:38 - He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

Now this is easy part for Christ has never reneged on a promise......so when church leaders do not have rivers of living waters flowing from their belly the only reason...possible is that they do not BELIEVE ON CHRIST as the Scriptures HATH SAID.

I have used only two examples in trying to explain to you how things work...and also how the covenant of GOD which is the Covenant given to Abraham, ISaac and Jacob also works with men.

On one side of the covenant, God has His Gifts and promises...and on the other side of the covenant is the fulfillment of the conditions of GOD before men can receive righteously the things of GOD.

The Gifts of GOD we cannot earn directly. We must fulfill the conditions upon which the promises are predicated and then with faith we can receive them. For God does not bestow the powers of heaven on people who have not been tested and qualified in order to receive them.

If you have problems then re-read the first two examples and see for yourself the wonderful things that GOD promised are based on conditions.

It is not the works that counts...it is the change brought within us because of the works.

Do you understand the difference now.

It is not the works of Repentance that brings remission of sins...but the change in us brought about by the works.

bert10

Um...thanks bert. :)

[Billyray]

For God does not bestow the powers of heaven on people who have not been tested and qualified in order to receive them.
bert10

bert, what are these tests and qualifications that you speak of?

[ErikErik]

According to the OP, in order to 'earn' it, one "must repent and follow Jesus Christ and teach HIS gospel".

I realize this might be a little difficult for some people to understand. :p

You don't earn salvation through repentance. Repentance is a natural heart response when we recognize that we are sinners and the wages of sin is death. Jesus said unless you believe I AM He, you will die in your sins.

Jesus said we must be born again spiritually or we cannot see the kingdom of God. We cannot earn heaven. God said there is no one righteous, NO NOT ONE. ALL HAVE SINNED. God said our righteous acts are like filthy rags. (Isaiah 64:6) No, there is NOTHING we can do to earn heaven. Its what Christ DID for us and we acknowledge that when we repent.

If we could earn our own salvation, then Christ's sacrifice and death was in vain.This is why He came into the world. To save us and to reconcile us to God.

Did Jesus tell Nicodemus that he had a myriad of laws and ordinances that he must obey in order to gain entrance to heaven? Jesus said You must be born again. This was a stumbling block for the Jews who wanted to cling to the law. But Paul said whoever lives by the law is cursed. Christ came to set us free from the law as no one can obey them all.

This is still a stumbling block for the mormon because he still wants the law and law keeping. What you think is double speak is your misunderstanding of salvation freely given and not of works. Paul taught this. It is by grace that we are saved and NOT OF WORKS lest any man should boast. Paul never boasted about all the good things he had done. On the contrary, he said "Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners-of whom I am the worst". Paul's terrible sin was trying to destroy Christianity. He repented and rejoiced in the grace of God. It was nothing Paul did. It was what Christ DID and Paul's response was repentance and this led him to follow Christ by sharing His Gospel with the world. He lifted up Jesus Christ as the ONLY way to eternal salvation.

It seems the lds is always laughing when given God's Word.

But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned" (1st Corinthians 2:14).

[TheSword99]

This is the kind of statement that makes me, a Mormon, laugh a little and makes me wonder why critics of the LDS church have such a disdain for the LDS view of the 'requirements' for salvation.

Here we see that in one breath, a mainstream Christian will say we can do NOTHING to earn forgiveness, but then next gives the conditions that have to be met to basically 'earn' the forgiveness. It's completely transparent. It's like my employer saying that I cannot earn my paycheck, it is freely given to me if I show up and do my ***.

LOL

I have to hand it to the lds on here. They are experts at steering the topic away from Mormonism and turning it around to make the Christians on here defend their faith. This is another such thread . Sir likes to call Christians "critics" of the mormon church because all of a sudden, its no longer politically correct to call us anti-mormons. Sir, you make it a habit of starting threads that attacks what a Christian has said. Your church was accused of double speak, so you start a thread attacking the Christian who said this and try to attack Christianity instead of addressing the accusation which is a valid one.

Christians are not afraid to defend the faith because God said His Word will not return to Him void. We recognize the power of the sword..the Word of God.

Sir, your earning a paycheck is a very poor ****ogy. Of course your boss must pay you because he didn't do the work for you! Jesus did! You are trying to do what Christ already did. He paid the ransom, your sin debt, in full with His perfect sacrifice.

Are you saying Christ didn't do it all? That you, a finite human whom He created, must ***ist Him and complete what you believe He failed to do?!...:eek:

[ErikErik]

Are you saying Christ didn't do it all? That you, a finite human whom He created, must ***ist Him and complete what you believe He failed to do?!...:eek:

Of course the lds believes he must ***ist Jesus. After all, the lds believes that Jesus is only his brother and that he will become a god like Him someday through obedience of laws.

[Knox]

Of course the lds believes he must ***ist Jesus.
Don't you believe that you are ***isting Jesus right now, by criticizing the LDS? Don't you believe that you are Jesus' hands and feet--parts of "the body" ?
Don't you believe that you are "married" to Jesus?
Of course the evangelical extremist believes he must criticize others in order to ***ist Jesus.

[Richard]

Born Again (regeneration) is an act of God and God alone. After a person is regenerated this leads the person to conversion BECAUSE he was born again. Conversion in repentance and faith in Christ. Repentance means turning away from your old ways. I don't see the works involved that you speak of. Enlighten me.

"And if I say to the wicked man, 'You will surely die,' but he then turns away from his sin and does what is just and right -- if he gives back what he took in pledge for a loan, returns what he has stolen, follows the decrees that give life, and does no evil, he will surely live; he will not die. None of the sins he has committed will be remembered against him. He has done what is just and right; he will surely live. Yet your countrymen say, 'The way of the Lord is not just.' But it is their way that is not just. If a righteous man turns from his righteousness and does evil, he will die for it. And if a wicked man turns away from his wickedness and does what is just and right, he will live by doing so" (Ezekial 33:14-19)

1). turns away from his sin and does what is just and right
2). he gives back what he took in pledge for a loan, returns what he has stolen, follows the decrees that give life, and does no evil, he will surely live;
3). If a righteous man turns from his righteousness and does evil, he will die for it.
4). if a wicked man turns away from his wickedness and does what is just and right, he will live by doing so

[James Banta]

"And if I say to the wicked man, 'You will surely die,' but he then turns away from his sin and does what is just and right -- if he gives back what he took in pledge for a loan, returns what he has stolen, follows the decrees that give life, and does no evil, he will surely live; he will not die. None of the sins he has committed will be remembered against him. He has done what is just and right; he will surely live. Yet your countrymen say, 'The way of the Lord is not just.' But it is their way that is not just. If a righteous man turns from his righteousness and does evil, he will die for it. And if a wicked man turns away from his wickedness and does what is just and right, he will live by doing so" (Ezekial 33:14-19)

1). turns away from his sin and does what is just and right
2). he gives back what he took in pledge for a loan, returns what he has stolen, follows the decrees that give life, and does no evil, he will surely live;
3). If a righteous man turns from his righteousness and does evil, he will die for it.
4). if a wicked man turns away from his wickedness and does what is just and right, he will live by doing so

What man has lived from his beginning to the end of the world? NONE! Know why? Because ALL have sinned (Romans 3:23). We walk in a body of sin.. Even those who have turned from that sin and to God have a problem in their flesh.. Paul himself said that in his flesh sin still reigned (Romans 7:18).. Remember the person that sins will die (Ezek 18:4).. WE ALL DIE! IHS jim

[Sir]

. Sir likes to call Christians "critics" of the mormon church because all of a sudden, its no longer politically correct to call us anti-mormons.

No, I call you critics because calling you "anti-mormon" is actually against the rules here. And that you are someone who criticizes the LDS church and its teachings, calling you a critic is wholly accurate.

It is interesting to see how you conjured up your own ideas and reasons for why I use the terms I did and then tried to present them in a way that is supposed to reflect poorly on me. It's no different than what you guys do with a lot of LDS theology.


Sir, you make it a habit of starting threads that attacks what a Christian has said. Your church was accused of double speak, so you start a thread attacking the Christian who said this and try to attack Christianity instead of addressing the accusation which is a valid one.

Attack, attack, attack........sounds like someone has a victimhood mentality and a persecution complex!

[James Banta]

No, I call you critics because calling you "anti-mormon" is actually against the rules here. And that you are someone who criticizes the LDS church and its teachings, calling you a critic is wholly accurate.

It is interesting to see how you conjured up your own ideas and reasons for why I use the terms I did and then tried to present them in a way that is supposed to reflect poorly on me. It's no different than what you guys do with a lot of LDS theology.



Attack, attack, attack........sounds like someone has a victimhood mentality and a persecution complex!

I guess we can call you Bible critics because you criticize the Bible and the teaching it holds about the salvation of men and have run for support for the blasphemy of calling God a created being to the myths and false teaching of a man.. Ok you keep calling the Christians here critics and I will keep calling mormonism a cult.. IHS jim

[Billyray]

No, I call you critics because calling you "anti-mormon" is actually against the rules here. And that you are someone who criticizes the LDS church and its teachings, calling you a critic is wholly accurate.

Just like calling you a critic of Christianity is wholly accurate.

[Sir]

Just like calling you a critic of Christianity is wholly accurate.

I suppose if I were actively engaged in forums that are designed to criticize mainstream christianity, spending time daily looking for things wrong with it, its history, its leaders, mining quotes to spin a negative slant on it, then that label would fit. But since I don't do those things it isn't accurate.

However, if that is a name you feel you need to call me, I really have no problem with it.

[Sir]

I guess we can call you Bible critics because you criticize the Bible and the teaching it holds about the salvation of men and have run for support for the blasphemy of calling God a created being to the myths and false teaching of a man.. Ok you keep calling the Christians here critics and I will keep calling mormonism a cult.. IHS jim

No, we critice your interpretations of the Bible. So if you want to be truthful and accurate, and if you really feel you need to make a label, you can call us mainstream christian biblical interpretation critics.

If you don't feel you are a critic of mormonism, no need to worry about what I call those who actively engage in criticizing Mormonism, its teachings, its history, its leaders, its doctrines, etc. Just like I don't care that you call me a cultist. Your label of me means nothing to me so I don't worry about correcting or addressing it.

[Billyray]

However, if that is a name you feel you need to call me, I really have no problem with it.
You are a critic of Christianity, just like I am a critic of Mormonism. No reason to pretend here.

[Richard]

What man has lived from his beginning to the end of the world? NONE! Know why? Because ALL have sinned (Romans 3:23). We walk in a body of sin.. Even those who have turned from that sin and to God have a problem in their flesh.. Paul himself said that in his flesh sin still reigned (Romans 7:18).. Remember the person that sins will die (Ezek 18:4).. WE ALL DIE! IHS jim

Duh James, so are we talking about a physical death or a spiritual death old man?

Obviously you completely miss the point that seems so plain to us LDS that the scriptures are talking about a spiritual death. Separation from God and having to live a lesser degree of glory.

[ErikErik]

No, I call you critics because calling you "anti-mormon" is actually against the rules here. And that you are someone who criticizes the LDS church and its teachings, calling you a critic is wholly accurate.

It is interesting to see how you conjured up your own ideas and reasons for why I use the terms I did and then tried to present them in a way that is supposed to reflect poorly on me. It's no different than what you guys do with a lot of LDS theology.



Attack, attack, attack........sounds like someone has a victimhood mentality and a persecution complex!



Anti-mormon became a tag that was being overused and abused. A general tag for everyone who disagrees with Mormonism. It became an excuse to dismiss someone outside the lds church with a sweep of a hand without taking the time to ask exactly what and why a person believes what they do. The lds apologists were indiscriminately tagging non lds with this term. This makes dialogue impossible.

Christians don't attack the individual lds. We fight heresy with the word of God, the Sword of the Spirit. This is what Christians have been doing since its inception. This was the very reason for councils. To stamp out heretical teachings in order to be faithful to what God has said in His word and what Christ taught to His apostles..

Mormonism has some very serious errors. To not address them would mean we don't care and are being disobedient to God in our failure to teach the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Any religion that denies there is only one God in existence and denies that Jesus Christ is God and lowers him to merely our spirit brother and the brother of satan must be confronted.

The lds church has not restored Christianity. It has changed it. It has changed what God said in His word. Changed the very nature of the Triune God so clearly shown in the Creation of the world in Genesis. It Invented many, many gods and made God the Father and God the Son into men who were exactly like us and had to learn obedience. We need to read the Book of *** again where God corrected ***, putting him in his place and asked him who could do the mighty works of God such as laying the foundation of the world. God asked is there anyone like Him. *** acknowledged there isn't and repented.

[MacG]

It is not the works that counts...it is the change brought within us because of the works.
bert10

Really?

16nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified. Gal2

Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,

The works James mentions come from gra***ude and voluntary not under lawful obligation which desreves a wage or reward.

3For what does the Scripture say? "ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS."

4Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due.

5But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness," Rom4

It is Christ who removes our heart of stone and relpaces it with a heart of flesh.

MacG

[alanmolstad]

This is the kind of statement that makes me, a Mormon, laugh a little and makes me wonder why critics of the LDS church have such a disdain for the LDS view of the 'requirements' for salvation.

Here we see that in one breath, a mainstream Christian will say we can do NOTHING to earn forgiveness, but then next gives the conditions that have to be met to basically 'earn' the forgiveness. It's completely transparent. It's like my employer saying that I cannot earn my paycheck, it is freely given to me if I show up and do my ***.

LOL



John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

The forgiveness of God is "sufficient" to cover all the sins of the whole world.

The forgiveness of God is "efficient" in covering the sins of only they who believes in His son.

if you believe in His son, you have forgiveness.
if you put your faith in another God, in another Jesus, your sins are unforgiven and you die condemned.