What is Spirit? [Archive] - Walter Martin Ministries Forum

dfoJC

12-17-2010, 11:02 AM

Thanks for your post. I think we agree more than you think.

But as you pointed out, you didn't give me a Bibical definition of what spirit is.

Thanks, anyway.

Marvin

You are welcome Marvin. Interesting to hear that "we agree more than you think."

Even though we have yet to find a definitive verse that states "this is what the spirit is" I think we need to look at this a bit more. I think this discussion is of utmost importance for us, so I am going to offer up a couple of scriptures and observations for us to consider. Please understand, this is not an attempt at a derail-I just believe there needs to be more clarification about the spirit.

In Zecaraiah 12:1 it says this, "The burden of the word of the Lord against Israel. Thus says the Lord, who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth and forms the spirit of man within him." Those last seven words are significant when it comes to discussing "spirit." My point simply being, God formed the spirit of man within him. Our spirit then is created.

As is our soul, Isaiah 57:16 says this; "For I will not contend forever, nor will I always be angry; for the spirit would fail before Me, And the souls which I have made." Note that spirit and soul are separate and that they would "fail" before Him-that means in His presence.

So, to get back to your question-"what is spirit." First I believe that the spirit is life. Notice when Jesus died on the cross it says in Matthew 27:50 that Jesus gave up His spirit and died, so, without the spirit, there is no life.

Here is another verse to consider; "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life." John 6:63. So, Jesus Himself is saying that His words are spirit.

Spirit is life, spirit is the word. Finally may I suggest that we have a spirit because He is Spirit? How then does God interact with those who have been reborn of the Spirit? Well it has to be via our spirit-of course this deals more with purpose rather than definition. This also reminds me that that salvation is an inside out work, and not the other way around. Nothing we can do can bring our spirits to life-this is a work that only God can do, and He does so through salvation...Of course I recognize that the LDS will disagree....

Blessings,

dfoJC

Billyray

12-17-2010, 01:56 PM

The original Bible did not have italicized words.

It is well know that the italicized words are added in. One big clue is that they are italicized. Certainly you don't need LDS to tell Christians that.

James Banta

12-17-2010, 02:04 PM

Like I said In the OP, James, I want to know what a spirit is not what it isn't. And you haven't provided any scriptural basis for what you say. It is most telling that you "***ume" what you are claiming a spirit is.

Next time how about providing Biblical basis for what you are claiming.

Marvin

Yes indeed I made some terrible ***umptions.. Like God is intelligent.. Then I hold a verse of the Bible up for examination that God is Spirit (John 4:24).. Then I tell you what Jesus said a Spirit isn't (Luke 24:39). That information should help you see that a Spirit is.. I will add one more, a spirit is invisible, for God is Spirit and is called invisible (Col 2:15).. If God had a body as tangible as man's (D&C 130:22) it would be visible.. That is proof right there that Smith was a false prophet, for he again spoke in the name of some other God, other than the one revealed by the Bible.. A SPIRIT is not flesh..

But of course none of this will be on subject to you.. You never see any real answer as being on the subject you try to twist to fit into mormonism.. The mormon concept of God is flawed.. Smith said that God having a Spirit meets the requirement for the verse about God being Spirit.. But Jesus did say that a spirit doesn't have flesh and bone.. So Smith's and therefore mormonism's idea of what a spirit will include is WRONG.. He didn't lie this time, he just didn't know what he was talking about.. IHS jim

Russianwolfe

12-17-2010, 09:07 PM

Yes indeed I made some terrible ***umptions.. Like God is intelligent..

The word ***ume was your word. And so was the modifier terrible.

Then I hold a verse of the Bible up for examination that God is Spirit (John 4:24)..

Which tells us what God is but does nothing for our understanding of what Spirit is, according to the Bible.

If you try to define salt as salty, you have said nothing. Your definition does not help us understand what salt is. And the verse you refer to does not help us understand what Spirit is. And until it does, it doesn't help you understand God either.

Then I tell you what Jesus said a Spirit isn't (Luke 24:39).

Yes, and this is exactly what I asked you not to tell me. Spirit isn't a lot of things and none of them help us to understand what Spirit is.

That information should help you see that a Spirit is..

So far you are batting a big fat zero. Nothing of what you have said in this post or in the previous one helps us to understand what Spirit is.

I will add one more, a spirit is invisible, for God is Spirit and is called invisible (Col 2:15)..

Again, you are ***uming that a spirit is invisible just because you make a connection between what Christ said and what Paul said. It could also be that God is invisible for some other reason and not because he is Spirit as you claim.

If God had a body as tangible as man's (D&C 130:22) it would be visible..

So you ***ume.

That is proof right there that Smith was a false prophet, for he again spoke in the name of some other God, other than the one revealed by the Bible.. A SPIRIT is not flesh..

And you haven't shown what Spirit is and so have come to a false conclusion based on your own ***umptions and conclusions that are not warranted until you can show us what Spirit really is.

But of course none of this will be on subject to you.. You never see any real answer as being on the subject you try to twist to fit into mormonism..

I haven't said anything about Mormonism. You brought that up. I am asking for a Biblical definition of what Spirit is. So far, you have nothing. Speculation, and stating your ***umptions as fact is not a Biblical definition.

The mormon concept of God is flawed..

It is different from yours, but you have not established that it is flawed. You are expecting us to accept your statement of opinion as fact. Sorry, won't do that. And won't let you get away with it.

Smith said that God having a Spirit meets the requirement for the verse about God being Spirit..

CFR

But Jesus did say that a spirit doesn't have flesh and bone..

Christ was addressing the fears of the apostles and not trying to give them more information about God. You can't really use this verse the way you think you can. To do so is to rip it from context. It was about the apostles fears not about God. And if you believe in only one God, the fact that Christ had a resurrected body shows that God is not simply Spirit.

So Smith's and therefore mormonism's idea of what a spirit will include is WRONG..

You have to show us a Biblical definition of what Spirit is before you can make this statement true. So far you haven't.

He didn't lie this time, he just didn't know what he was talking about.. IHS jim

You conclusion is not warranted based on what you have presented here.

So far, no one has been able to present any Biblical definition of what a Spirit is. What should I conclude about what a Spirit is?

Marvin

Russianwolfe

12-17-2010, 09:08 PM

And I will say it again, we agree far more than you believe.

And I will to say again, that you have not provided a Bibical definition of what spirit is.

Marvin

You are welcome Marvin. Interesting to hear that "we agree more than you think."

Even though we have yet to find a definitive verse that states "this is what the spirit is" I think we need to look at this a bit more. I think this discussion is of utmost importance for us, so I am going to offer up a couple of scriptures and observations for us to consider. Please understand, this is not an attempt at a derail-I just believe there needs to be more clarification about the spirit.

In Zecaraiah 12:1 it says this, "The burden of the word of the Lord against Israel. Thus says the Lord, who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth and forms the spirit of man within him." Those last seven words are significant when it comes to discussing "spirit." My point simply being, God formed the spirit of man within him. Our spirit then is created.

As is our soul, Isaiah 57:16 says this; "For I will not contend forever, nor will I always be angry; for the spirit would fail before Me, And the souls which I have made." Note that spirit and soul are separate and that they would "fail" before Him-that means in His presence.

So, to get back to your question-"what is spirit." First I believe that the spirit is life. Notice when Jesus died on the cross it says in Matthew 27:50 that Jesus gave up His spirit and died, so, without the spirit, there is no life.

Here is another verse to consider; "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life." John 6:63. So, Jesus Himself is saying that His words are spirit.

Spirit is life, spirit is the word. Finally may I suggest that we have a spirit because He is Spirit? How then does God interact with those who have been reborn of the Spirit? Well it has to be via our spirit-of course this deals more with purpose rather than definition. This also reminds me that that salvation is an inside out work, and not the other way around. Nothing we can do can bring our spirits to life-this is a work that only God can do, and He does so through salvation...Of course I recognize that the LDS will disagree....

Blessings,

dfoJC

James Banta

12-17-2010, 11:56 PM

The word ***ume was your word. And so was the modifier terrible.

Which tells us what God is but does nothing for our understanding of what Spirit is, according to the Bible.

If you try to define salt as salty, you have said nothing. Your definition does not help us understand what salt is. And the verse you refer to does not help us understand what Spirit is. And until it does, it doesn't help you understand God either.

Yes, and this is exactly what I asked you not to tell me. Spirit isn't a lot of things and none of them help us to understand what Spirit is.

So far you are batting a big fat zero. Nothing of what you have said in this post or in the previous one helps us to understand what Spirit is.

Again, you are ***uming that a spirit is invisible just because you make a connection between what Christ said and what Paul said. It could also be that God is invisible for some other reason and not because he is Spirit as you claim.

So you ***ume.

And you haven't shown what Spirit is and so have come to a false conclusion based on your own ***umptions and conclusions that are not warranted until you can show us what Spirit really is.

I haven't said anything about Mormonism. You brought that up. I am asking for a Biblical definition of what Spirit is. So far, you have nothing. Speculation, and stating your ***umptions as fact is not a Biblical definition.

It is different from yours, but you have not established that it is flawed. You are expecting us to accept your statement of opinion as fact. Sorry, won't do that. And won't let you get away with it.

CFR

Christ was addressing the fears of the apostles and not trying to give them more information about God. You can't really use this verse the way you think you can. To do so is to rip it from context. It was about the apostles fears not about God. And if you believe in only one God, the fact that Christ had a resurrected body shows that God is not simply Spirit.

You have to show us a Biblical definition of what Spirit is before you can make this statement true. So far you haven't.

You conclusion is not warranted based on what you have presented here.

So far, no one has been able to present any Biblical definition of what a Spirit is. What should I conclude about what a Spirit is?

Marvin

No one will ever be able to give you what you insist on having.. The Bible teaches that God is not a person of flesh and bone.. Therefore a spirit is a person who is not flesh and bone yet exists as a person.. Yes The Apostle were afraid and Jesus explained that he was real and not a spirit by telling us that spirits don't have tangible bodies.. Mormonism teaches the exact opposite of that om the BofM.. This is your CFR.

Father in Heaven: A perfect being who looks like a mortal man but has a resurrected body of flesh and bones. He is the Father of our spirits, to whom we pray. (Gospel Fundamentals, 2002. p. 280)
You do accept a doctrine what the Prophet calls Gospel Fundamentals do you not? This is a clear denial of the words of Jesus:

John 4:24
God is Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
Mormonism teaches that this is in error no matter how much you deny it:

The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man's; the Son also, but the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit. Were it not so, the Holy Ghost could not dwell in us" (D. & C. 130:22).
Clearly this p***age supports the idea of the mormon concept I have shown here that the Father is a person of flesh and bone and not just Spirit.. The best you can do to make momronism fit it to say that God has a spirit..

I have shown from the Bible that a spirit in not tangible. So what is a spirit? The Bible doesn't describe that any more than to say that God is Spirit.. That should be enough.. IHS jim

Russianwolfe

12-18-2010, 04:07 AM

No one will ever be able to give you what you insist on having..

Why is it so difficult to get a Biblical definition of what Spirit is? This is a very important question. Can anyone provide the answer? What does the Bible say that Spirit is?

The Bible teaches that God is not a person of flesh and bone..

CFR. Provide the verses say exactly what you have claimed. No one has ever said what you say here. Where is the verses that make this claim?

And you lose. You are deflecting from the OP. Let's get back on the OP. Is that too much to ask?

Therefore a spirit is a person who is not flesh and bone yet exists as a person..

And again, you are telling me what Spirit is not, exactly what I ask you not to tell me. Are you going to tell me that Spirit is not..............a howitzer? Or a telephone? We all know millions of things that Spirit is not. What I am asking for is a Biblical definition of what a spirit is?

Yes The Apostle were afraid and Jesus explained that he was real and not a spirit by telling us that spirits don't have tangible bodies..

Like he had. A tangible body like Christ had. Which sorta contradicts your claim that God is just a spirit. Unless you don't believe Jesus to be God.

Mormonism teaches the exact opposite of that om the BofM.. This is your CFR.

Father in Heaven: A perfect being who looks like a mortal man but has a resurrected body of flesh and bones. He is the Father of our spirits, to whom we pray. (Gospel Fundamentals, 2002. p. 280)
You do accept a doctrine what the Prophet calls Gospel Fundamentals do you not?

This book is not the prophet speaking. It is a book prepared to teach people the fundamentals of the Gospel. Your attempt to give this book more authority than it should have is noted as a deceptive tactic.

You made a references to the BofM but did not provide a reference from that book. Can you please either provide a reference or stop making these kinds of claims? You are making your position look real weak especially when you make reference to something that you don't provide.

And you claimed that Joseph Smith made a statement about God having a spirit. This you have not CFR'ed. You have failed to provide the reference to back up your statement. Again, making your position look really really weak.

This is a clear denial of the words of Jesus:

John 4:24
God is Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
Mormonism teaches that this is in error no matter how much you deny it:

And so far you haven't provided a Biblical definition of what spirit is. How can you know for sure that this is a an error? If you don't know what spirit is how can you say that this an error? The only thing you can say is what it isn't and that doesn't help you understand what spirit is.

The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man's; the Son also, but the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit. Were it not so, the Holy Ghost could not dwell in us" (D. & C. 130:22).
Clearly this p***age supports the idea of the mormon concept I have shown here that the Father is a person of flesh and bone and not just Spirit.. The best you can do to make momronism fit it to say that God has a spirit..

And you still insist on telling me the errors of Mormonism but you are failing to tell me what spirit is. Why not stick to the OP? All this other stuff is just a deflection to cover up the fact that you have failed to provide a Biblical definition for what a spirit is. Stick to the OP.

I have shown from the Bible that a spirit in not tangible. So what is a spirit? The Bible doesn't describe that any more than to say that God is Spirit.. That should be enough.. IHS jim

Why should that be enough? You make many claims about what a spirit is and claim that this proves LDS doctrine is wrong. But if you don't know what a spirit is how can you say that LDS doctrine is wrong? You are arguing from silence which is a logical fallacy. Find out what spirit is before you say we are wrong about it.

Marvin

ErikErik

12-18-2010, 06:19 AM

Why is it so difficult to get a Biblical definition of what Spirit is? This is a very important question. Can anyone provide the answer? What does the Bible say that Spirit is?

CFR. Provide the verses say exactly what you have claimed. No one has ever said what you say here. Where is the verses that make this claim?

And you lose. You are deflecting from the OP. Let's get back on the OP. Is that too much to ask?

And again, you are telling me what Spirit is not, exactly what I ask you not to tell me. Are you going to tell me that Spirit is not..............a howitzer? Or a telephone? We all know millions of things that Spirit is not. What I am asking for is a Biblical definition of what a spirit is?

Like he had. A tangible body like Christ had. Which sorta contradicts your claim that God is just a spirit. Unless you don't believe Jesus to be God.

This book is not the prophet speaking. It is a book prepared to teach people the fundamentals of the Gospel. Your attempt to give this book more authority than it should have is noted as a deceptive tactic.

You made a references to the BofM but did not provide a reference from that book. Can you please either provide a reference or stop making these kinds of claims? You are making your position look real weak especially when you make reference to something that you don't provide.

And you claimed that Joseph Smith made a statement about God having a spirit. This you have not CFR'ed. You have failed to provide the reference to back up your statement. Again, making your position look really really weak.

And so far you haven't provided a Biblical definition of what spirit is. How can you know for sure that this is a an error? If you don't know what spirit is how can you say that this an error? The only thing you can say is what it isn't and that doesn't help you understand what spirit is.

And you still insist on telling me the errors of Mormonism but you are failing to tell me what spirit is. Why not stick to the OP? All this other stuff is just a deflection to cover up the fact that you have failed to provide a Biblical definition for what a spirit is. Stick to the OP.

Why should that be enough? You make many claims about what a spirit is and claim that this proves LDS doctrine is wrong. But if you don't know what a spirit is how can you say that LDS doctrine is wrong? You are arguing from silence which is a logical fallacy. Find out what spirit is before you say we are wrong about it.

Marvin

This is just an attack on Christianity. Because we believe the Bible and what it says about God being a spirit, you seem to prefer to bring this up INSTEAD of the fact that the lds church teaches that God has a body like ours. Being the Mormonism category, we need to discuss mormon beliefs. This is what most of the lds on here refuse to want to talk about.

So tell us why you don't believe God is a spirit but rather has a body of flesh and bone.

The Bible says that Christ is the image of the invisible God. Being invisible means sans body. The Bible tells us that God is omnipotent, omnipresent and omniscient. God cannot be all these things if he were like us with a body which would mean He is confined by space and time. The bible tells us that a thousand years is like a day to God so He is OUTSIDE of time. That is sufficient for me. But it seems the lds wants to go beyond that because of your unscriptual teachings. You are hoping that Christians cannot answer your original question and thereby try and use this to show that means God is like us with a body of flesh and bone, but you didn't get your teaching from the Holy Bible, but from Joe Smith.

Marvin, where in all of God's word does it say God has a body as tangible as man's? Please provide Scriptural reference. Chapter and verse.

Billyray

12-18-2010, 09:08 AM

So far, no one has been able to present any Biblical definition of what a Spirit is. What should I conclude about what a Spirit is?
Marvin

Marvin I guess this means you should conclude that YOU think that this means a spirit is a body of flesh and bones or has a body of flesh and bones.

James Banta

12-18-2010, 10:37 AM

[Russianwolfe;74528]Why is it so difficult to get a Biblical definition of what Spirit is? This is a very important question. Can anyone provide the answer? What does the Bible say that Spirit is?

I have given you all that the Bible says about the nature of a spirit.. That it isn't physical that is it doesn't have flesh or bones.. I can add that John teaches that we don't know what we will be other than we will be like Him for we will see him as He is (1 John 3:2).. If you demand more you will have to wait til that time..

CFR. Provide the verses say exactly what you have claimed. No one has ever said what you say here. Where is the verses that make this claim?

I have given you the reference In Luke 24:39.. You have ignored that going on with the idea that God has a resurrected body as tangible a man's.. A Body of flesh and bone.. Jesus taught different..

And you lose. You are deflecting from the OP. Let's get back on the OP. Is that too much to ask?

You asked what a spirit is when I show you from the words of Jesus you deny it and say that it is wrong.. But that is what you always do if the Bible disagrees with you your weapon is to dent it's message..

And again, you are telling me what Spirit is not, exactly what I ask you not to tell me. Are you going to tell me that Spirit is not..............a howitzer? Or a telephone? We all know millions of things that Spirit is not. What I am asking for is a Biblical definition of what a spirit is?

A spirit according to the context of Jesus appearing to the Apostles in Luke 24 is that a spirit is the living part of a person not an inanimate object.. I have given you what the Bible teaches about the nature of a spirit.. You just reject it..

Like he had. A tangible body like Christ had. Which sorta contradicts your claim that God is just a spirit. Unless you don't believe Jesus to be God.

The Father may be called God separately of conjunctively with the Son and the Holy Spirit. Both usages are proper because the Father is all the God there is or ever can be.. Do you wish to discuss the Trinity again?

This book is not the prophet speaking. It is a book prepared to teach people the fundamentals of the Gospel. Your attempt to give this book more authority than it should have is noted as a deceptive tactic.

This reference is from an official LDS church publication. One approved by the highest authorities of the church. That mean that they agree with all that is being taught that and take full responsibility for it's content.. It is as if they wrote the whole of that manual.. There is no deception in my statement.. To say that official church publications are not the responsibility (The content that is) of the leadership is to be deceptive..

You made a references to the BofM but did not provide a reference from that book. Can you please either provide a reference or stop making these kinds of claims? You are making your position look real weak especially when you make reference to something that you don't provide.

I quoted a LDS statement and gave the reference.. But in Alma 18:26-28 we see that the BofM teaches that God is a spirit. If you will look back at my quote you will see that I gave the reference for the quote I used..

And you claimed that Joseph Smith made a statement about God having a spirit. This you have not CFR'ed. You have failed to provide the reference to back up your statement. Again, making your position look really really weak.

You are right I can't fine that quote so I retract and yield that point.. At the same time are you going to tell me that you have never heard that taught.. I have many times.. That is how the problem of this p***age was explained to me by SS teachers, Seminary teachers, bishops and counselors.

And so far you haven't provided a Biblical definition of what spirit is. How can you know for sure that this is a an error? If you don't know what spirit is how can you say that this an error? The only thing you can say is what it isn't and that doesn't help you understand what spirit is.

Oh course I have you just won't accept the words of Jesus as being the truth.. I know this is correct because I have the Lord's word that His word will never p*** away.. This is his word on the nature of a spirit.. It hasn't flesh and bone.. He taught that God is Spirit.. Anyone that teaches different than that is teaching error..

And you still insist on telling me the errors of Mormonism but you are failing to tell me what spirit is. Why not stick to the OP? All this other stuff is just a deflection to cover up the fact that you have failed to provide a Biblical definition for what a spirit is. Stick to the OP.

Just because you deny the scripture on the nature of God doesn't mean that I haven't explained it by the by that authority.. Jesus did say that God is Spirit and that a spirit doesn't have flesh and bone.. That should be enough for a person who says that they believe in God and know that He doesn't lie.. But it is part of mormonism to cal God a liar.. His word has been corrupted.. Never mind His promises to the contrary..

Why should that be enough? You make many claims about what a spirit is and claim that this proves LDS doctrine is wrong. But if you don't know what a spirit is how can you say that LDS doctrine is wrong? You are arguing from silence which is a logical fallacy. Find out what spirit is before you say we are wrong about it.

It should be enough because that is what Jesus told us! Mormonism hold the doctrine that the Father is a person of flesh and bone.. Jesus said that He is NOT.. Jesus is right, Mormonism is wrong.. If you don't even hold the correct doctrine about who and what God is then saying that Mormonism is wrong is truth.. I know that a spirit is a person without physical form.. that is the meaning of the word of Jesus.. You wish to reject this because of Smith rants near the end of his life.. You do know that in the lectures on Faith the explanation of the nature of God is more in line with the Bible and less insistent that God has a physical body.

In 1835 the "Lectures on Faith", which were originally delivered before a cl*** of the Elders, in Kirtland, Ohio, were printed in the Doctrine and Covenants. In these lectures it was definitely stated that God the Father was a personage of spirit.

In the fifth lecture we find this statement about the Godhead:

"... the Father being a personage of spirit, glory and power, possessing all perfection and fulness, the Son, ... a personage of tabernacle ..." (Doctrine and Covenants, 1835 Edition, page 53)
The "Lectures on Faith" not only taught that God the Father is a spirit, but also that God is omnipresent. Present everywhere at the same time. In the second lecture the following statement is made:

We here observe that God is the only supreme governor and independent being in whom all fulness and perfection dwells; who is omnipotent, omnipresent, and omnicient; without beginning of days or end of life; ... (Doctrine and Covenants, 1835 Edition, page 12)
But here you are insisting that I don't understand the meaning of what a spirit is.. Ok by Smith own words herein the lectures a spirit is a person but is not a person of tabernacle.. See even the highest authority of mormonism describes a spirit by what it is not.. IHS jim

Russianwolfe

12-18-2010, 08:01 PM

This is just an attack on Christianity.

My asking a question is an attack on Christianity???????? If I look at you wrong is that an attack on you??????

Because we believe the Bible and what it says about God being a spirit, you seem to prefer to bring this up INSTEAD of the fact that the lds church teaches that God has a body like ours.

Unless you know what spirit is by Biblical definition what are you saying when you say that God is spirit? If the Bible does not say what spirit is, how can you say?

Being the Mormonism category, we need to discuss mormon beliefs. This is what most of the lds on here refuse to want to talk about.

I am attempting to engage in a conversation about Spirit. If you don't know what spirit is, then how can you say that our definition is wrong? If we are to talk about LDS beliefs, you must have something to compare it to. If not, then you have nothing to say that is Biblical. If it is not Biblical, then what is it? Who told you what spirit is? Who defined spirit if it is not in the Bible?

So tell us why you don't believe God is a spirit but rather has a body of flesh and bone.

If you don't know what Spirit is by Biblical definition, how can you say that I don't believe it? If you don't have a clear Biblical definition as to what spirit is, then what do you have?

The Bible says that Christ is the image of the invisible God.

And Christ has a resurrected body. If Christ is in the image of the invisible God, why doesn't the invisible God have a body?

But this is off topic. I am trying to understand what you mean when you say God is spirit by asking what does the Bible mean when it says spirit. Unless you know from the Bible what spirit is how can you know what God is?

Being invisible means sans body.

Why does it mean 'sans body'? That is you arguing from your conclusions. Invisible only means not seen. It has no relationship to whether or not God has a body. You are attempting to short cut the argument by claiming a definition that is not true except in your own beliefs which you haven't shown to be Biblical.

The Bible tells us that God is omnipotent, omnipresent and omniscient. God cannot be all these things if he were like us with a body which would mean He is confined by space and time.

What convoluted logic led you to this conclusion? Why does God have to be unconfined by space and time if he is all powerful (omnipotent)?

The bible tells us that a thousand years is like a day to God so He is OUTSIDE of time.

Why does this have to be? The very fact that it is defined as a longer space of time actually proves you wrong. If God is outside of space and time, then no measurement is valid and yet a thousand years are as a day to God. Just because he is immortal and would see time differently than you or I who measure our whole life in less than a hundred years (except for a lucky few) doesn't mean that he is outside of space and time. Your conclusions are not valid nor supported by any evidence or logical on your part. I don't accept your statements of opinion as fact. Show me the evidence for your statement so I can make my own decision.

That is sufficient for me.

But not for me. I would like to see the evidence you have from the Bible that leads to that conclusion. Otherwise, it is just your opinion and of no serious import.

But it seems the lds wants to go beyond that because of your unscriptual teachings.

Again, you are attempting to hijack this thread. Let's get back to the Biblical definition of spirit.

You are hoping that Christians cannot answer your original question and thereby try and use this to show that means God is like us with a body of flesh and bone, but you didn't get your teaching from the Holy Bible, but from Joe Smith.

I am doing nothing of the kind. It occured to me that I don't know what the Bible means by spirit. After a search on my own, I am now asking you and your friends to see if I maybe missed something. LDS doctrine very clearly defines what spirit is. But if you don't know what the Biblical definition of spirit is, how can you say that our definition is wrong?

Marvin, where in all of God's word does it say God has a body as tangible as man's? Please provide Scriptural reference. Chapter and verse.

No, this is not about your questions that are a clear attempt to hijack this thread. Please stick to the OP.

Marivn

PS. In Luke, Christ appears to the apostles and clearly states that he has a body which a spirit does not. He then eats a honey comb and a fish. Why would he do that? To show the apostles that he has a body just like theirs although resurrected. I don't think it gets any clearer than that.

Billyray

12-19-2010, 08:06 AM

MUnless you know what spirit is by Biblical definition what are you saying when you say that God is spirit? If the Bible does not say what spirit is, how can you say?

Thus Marvin concludes God is spirit = God has a body of flesh and bones.

Folks this is Mormon reasoning and how they rationalize in their own minds to make their theology mesh with the Bible.

ErikErik

12-19-2010, 11:31 AM

Thus Marvin concludes God is spirit = God has a body of flesh and bones.

Folks this is Mormon reasoning and how they rationalize in their own minds to make their theology mesh with the Bible.

Mormons must rationalize many things away, deny and redefine. Otherwise they will be forced to admit mormonism is a false religion.

Sandra Tanner, a relative of Brigham Young, once wrote that she had confronted lds about this. Someone high up on the mormon hierarchy asked her to stop. He said to let the mormons have their lie. Since they are comfortable, why rock the boat?

Sad, very sad considering that one's salvation is at stake.

Russianwolfe

12-19-2010, 01:26 PM

Mormons must rationalize many things away, deny and redefine. Otherwise they will be forced to admit mormonism is a false religion.

I'm not the one who has to rationalize anything away. You say that the Bible says that no man can see God. All I do is point out Exodus 24 where it says that many men saw God at the same time. I am the one defending the Bible. You are the attacking it. Why don't you believe the Bible?

Sandra Tanner, a relative of Brigham Young, once wrote that she had confronted lds about this. Someone high up on the mormon hierarchy asked her to stop. He said to let the mormons have their lie. Since they are comfortable, why rock the boat?

And Sandra Tanner's relationship to BY is her claim to authority? I find that ridiculous.

And you reference to 'someone high up on the mormon hierarchy' is a real knee slapper. This anecdote screams very loudly 'This is a lie'

Sad, very sad considering that one's salvation is at stake.

What does the Bible say about liars?

Marvin

Billyray

12-19-2010, 01:55 PM

You say that the Bible says that no man can see God. All I do is point out Exodus 24 where it says that many men saw God at the same time. I am the one defending the Bible. You are the attacking it. Why don't you believe the Bible?

Hey Marvin I answered your question. I guess you are not reading my posts. Go ahead and bury your head in the sand. What you don't know won't hurt you.

James Banta

12-19-2010, 06:13 PM

In other words when people say God is spirit they're actually saying He's the center because He is our Heavenly Father, not that He's actually just a spirit.

No when we Believe the Bible.. We actually accept the Biblical truth that God is Spirit.. That a spirit hasn't flesh and bone as Jesus has.. IHS jim

Russianwolfe

12-19-2010, 07:30 PM

No when we Believe the Bible.. We actually accept the Biblical truth that God is Spirit.. That a spirit hasn't flesh and bone as Jesus has.. IHS jim

Knowing what spirit is not does not help us understand what spirit really is. Spirit is also not a car and it is not a star. But the real question is what is spirit?. Until you can answer this question, when you say that God is spirit you really haven't said anything. It doesn't help us to understand God more and that is the real problem when you don't know what spirit is.

When you say that a spirit does not have flesh and bones, you have another problem: Does that mean that a spirit has a form like man because the apostles mistook Christ to be a spirit?

We need to know the Biblical definition of what a spirit is before we can say anything more about God. Without the Biblical definition of spirit,you don't know anything more about God than before. God is not a car either but that is not helpful.

Marvin

James Banta

12-19-2010, 07:35 PM

Knowing what spirit is not does not help us understand what spirit really is. Spirit is also not a car and it is not a star. But the real question is what is spirit?. Until you can answer this question, when you say that God is spirit you really haven't said anything. It doesn't help us to understand God more and that is the real problem when you don't know what spirit is.

When you say that a spirit does not have flesh and bones, you have another problem: Does that mean that a spirit has a form like man because the apostles mistook Christ to be a spirit?

We need to know the Biblical definition of what a spirit is before we can say anything more about God. Without the Biblical definition of spirit,you don't know anything more about God than before. God is not a car either but that is not helpful.

Marvin

I have given you what the Bible has said about it without injecting my opinion.. You don't like what the Bible teaches then admit that you believe God is inadequate and fall headlong into error and atheism.. IHS jim

Billyray

12-19-2010, 07:41 PM

Knowing what spirit is not does not help us understand what spirit really is.

Sure it helps us understand Marvin. That is a completely false statement.

Luke 24:39 See My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself; touch Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have.”

If a spirit does NOT have flesh and bones THEN it does not flesh and bones like you presume.

Russianwolfe

12-19-2010, 09:44 PM

I have given you what the Bible has said about it without injecting my opinion.. You don't like what the Bible teaches then admit that you believe God is inadequate and fall headlong into error and atheism.. IHS jim

But the Bible doesn't teach us anything about what a spirit is. That is the problem. All you have shown is what a spirit is not; something that was already known.

Its you who doesn't like what the Bible teaches. You keep trying to add your own opinion as if it were fact and Biblical. The problem is there are no verse to support your opinions; if there were you would have posted them long ago.

The fact is, all your claims for what a spirit is is not Biblical. When you say the God is spirit, you don't have a single verse to support what you claim that means. All you have is one verse that says that a spirit does not have flesh and bones. Which doesn't help us understand what a spirit is.

Say what you want but anything you attempt to say about God being a spirit means nothing because the Bible says nothing about what a spirit is.

Marvin

Billyray

12-19-2010, 10:05 PM

But the Bible doesn't teach us anything about what a spirit is. That is the problem.

Marvin maybe a snippet from the LDS "Friend" may help you understand this a little bit better. Just think of the spirit as your hand and your physical body with flesh and bones as a glove.

Linda Magleby, "Sharing Time: I Can Repent and Be Happy", Friend, Apr. 2006, 14–16

". . .Using a glove, teach the children about resurrection. Show your hand without the glove and tell the children that before we came to earth we were spirits. We could move, think, choose, and learn. When we came to earth we each received a body (put hand in glove). We can still move, think, choose, and learn, but now we have wonderful bodies to take care of. When we die, the body and the spirit separate (take off the glove). The body can no longer move, but our spirit still lives. When we are resurrected, our body and our spirit are together again (put on glove), and the body and the spirit will never be separated again. . ."

Billyray

12-19-2010, 10:14 PM

D and C 130
22The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s; the Son also; but the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit. Were it not so, the Holy Ghost could not dwell in us.

Hey Marvin you know what a spirit is you are just trying to buffalo us. Look at the description for HG in your D and C.

Libby

12-19-2010, 10:34 PM

The claim is made that God the Father is spirit, and the words of Christ to the Samaritan woman at the well are used to back this up.

I understand the verse but I don't understand what spirit is. Can anyone provide any Biblical verses to show what Spirit is? And don't tell me what Christ told the apostles after his resurrection. I don't need to know what a spirit is not. I want to know what a spirit is.

Anyone?

Marvin

I'm not sure it can be shown, absolutely, from the Bible. From taking into consideration all that I have learned from the Bible and other places, I would define spirit as "essence". It seems to be the force or fire of life.

James Banta

12-20-2010, 08:27 AM

I'm not sure it can be shown, absolutely, from the Bible. From taking into consideration all that I have learned from the Bible and other places, I would define spirit as "essence". It seems to be the force or fire of life.

But the Wolf insists on a Biblical reference and all that the Bible tells us has been given to him.. He rejects those references because none tell us what a spirit is.. Jesus tells us what a Spirit isn't.. He also tells us that God is Spirit. But even with the pronouncements that God is Spirit, that He is invisible, Marvin still insists that his church is right and the word of God is a lie? If my pastor came to me and said that he has a set of tasks for me to do and when I was done I would have complete confidence that I was going to be with Jesus in heaven, I would tell him:
1. That he was a cultist.
2. That he is teaching error
3. That according to the Bible salvation is a gift of God's grace.
And most importantly
4. If he didn't resign as the teaching elder of the church and the board of elder sustained him in that position I would no longer be a member of that church..

When a man insist that he is right and the word of God is in error he has no right to be in leadership in the Church of God.. Joseph Smith had no right to leadership and least of all to call Himself a prophet of God.. IHS jim

James Banta

12-20-2010, 11:08 AM

But the Bible doesn't teach us anything about what a spirit is. That is the problem. All you have shown is what a spirit is not; something that was already known.

Its you who doesn't like what the Bible teaches. You keep trying to add your own opinion as if it were fact and Biblical. The problem is there are no verse to support your opinions; if there were you would have posted them long ago.

The fact is, all your claims for what a spirit is is not Biblical. When you say the God is spirit, you don't have a single verse to support what you claim that means. All you have is one verse that says that a spirit does not have flesh and bones. Which doesn't help us understand what a spirit is.

Say what you want but anything you attempt to say about God being a spirit means nothing because the Bible says nothing about what a spirit is.

Marvin

I add nothing to what is spoken of in the Bible.. Did Jesus or did He not say that a spirit doesn't have flesh and bone? Did He or did He not teach that God is Spirit? Those are not my inventions.. I never taught a thing about the nature of God that is NOT in the Bible.. I was one that said that the Bible doesn't define what a spirit is.. You kept insisting that I tell you what it said about a spirit.. I gave you all the information I could find but the Spirit told me one additional fact that the Bible teaches, that is that God is invisible.. Since He is Spirit, spirits are therefore invisible.. These are Biblical facts not personal inventions..

I leave personal inventions to people who pervert the teachings of the Bible. That deny these biblical truths. People like Joseph Smith that taught that God has a body as tangible as man's.. That is a perversion of the Bible.. That God was once a man and lived on an earth the same as Jesus did.. That is a perversion of the Bible. That God was not always God but obtained that position through obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel.. That is also a perversion of the Bible.. Then you, who believe all these perversions, tell me that I am adding my opinion to the word.. And you wonder why I say you have a LOG in your eye.. IHS jim

Russianwolfe

12-20-2010, 12:39 PM

I add nothing to what is spoken of in the Bible.. Did Jesus or did He not say that a spirit doesn't have flesh and bone?

As I have pointed out many times, telling me what a spirit isn't doesn't help. I want to know what the Bible says a spirit is. If you can't tell me that, then you can't tell me what God is if you really believe that God is spirit. How can you claim to know God if you don't know what the Bible says spirit is?

Did He or did He not teach that God is Spirit?

But what does that mean? If you can't tell me what the Bible says Spirit is, what does that mean. Until you can tell me what the Bible says spirit is, then this means nothing.

Those are not my inventions.. I never taught a thing about the nature of God that is NOT in the Bible..

You claim that Christ is still on the cross because he is beyond time and space. That is what you have claimed about God. But until you can provide a Biblical teaching about what spirit is, you can't even say this. If God is spirit and the Bible provides no definition of what spirit is, then this beyond space and time thing is only your convoluted logic attempting to read a conclusion you already believed.

I was one that said that the Bible doesn't define what a spirit is.. You kept insisting that I tell you what it said about a spirit.. I gave you all the information I could find but the Spirit told me one additional fact that the Bible teaches, that is that God is invisible.. Since He is Spirit, spirits are therefore invisible.. These are Biblical facts not personal inventions..

I don't quite see the jump from spirit to invisibility. The could be many reasons why God is invisible without resorting to because he is spirit. When Christ appeared to the apostles they thought they were seeing a spirit. Thus, we have an indication that spirits aren't exactly invisible. And Christ did not contract did that aspect of their belief. All he did is point out what a spirit is not.

I leave personal inventions to people who pervert the teachings of the Bible. That deny these biblical truths. People like Joseph Smith that taught that God has a body as tangible as man's.. That is a perversion of the Bible.. That God was once a man and lived on an earth the same as Jesus did.. That is a perversion of the Bible. That God was not always God but obtained that position through obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel.. That is also a perversion of the Bible.. Then you, who believe all these perversions, tell me that I am adding my opinion to the word.. And you wonder why I say you have a LOG in your eye.. IHS jim

That God is beyond space and time, that is a perversion of the Bible. Christ told his apostles that he had a body of flesh and bones to contradict that is a perversion of the Bible. The scriptures tell the story of this earth and nothing more. Any statement by God in the Bible relates only to this earth. Before this earth is eternity as the ancient Hebrew believed it not as the Greeks defined it. The Bible is silent on things that might have happened before this earth was created. And it is more than just vague about what happens after the judgement. But the Bible is very clear about what is required for salvation here and now.

Most of what you have said about God that you believe to be true, comes from Greek philosophy mingled with scripture. It was first said by Greek philosophers and their student before it became part of Christian theology.

I say, let the blind lead the blind and they shall both fall in a ditch.

If the Bible has not definition about what spirit is, then that leaves a really big hole in our understanding of who and what God is. And that leaves us without salvation because Christ told us:

John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast esent.

If we can't know what God is and this scripture is true, then we don't have eternal life. That means that that the Bible is lacking in something essential to our salvation.

Marvin

dfoJC

12-20-2010, 12:52 PM

And I will say it again, we agree far more than you believe.

And I will to say again, that you have not provided a Bibical definition of what spirit is.

Marvin

Hi again Marvin, I am not sure then based on your above statement that you are really wanting to define what "spirit" is.

Doesn't this verse clearly say that the "spirit" are His words? Does it not say that the "spirit" makes alive? How can this not be a definition? Or do you reject this simply because you don't agree?

Joh 6:63 It is the Spirit that makes alive, the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit and are life.

Perhaps you are looking for something more?

Take care,
dfoJC

James Banta

12-20-2010, 01:20 PM

Russianwolfe

12-21-2010, 02:32 AM

Actually James you are the one who is refusing to believe what the Bible teaches. You have yet to address the fact that the apostle thought they saw a spirit when Christ appeared to them. You can't simply say that a spirit is invisible when Christ did not correct them and say that they couldn't be seeing a spirit because a spirit is invisible. Christ told them that a spirit does not have flesh and bones as he (Christ) had.

No matter how many times you say that a spirit is invisible, Luke contradicts you every time. When you can address this scripture in a way that does not compromise what it says, this discussion can continue. Until then you have an apparent contradiction to deal with. Is a spirit really invisible because God is invisible or is there something else that you have not considered?

Marvin

I have told you but you won't hear me (How many times did Jesus say that about people that didn't believe in Him).. A spirit is known only as taught in the Bible.. It is invisible. It was created within us.. God is Such a Being.. Just because you refuse to accept what the Bible teaches in this matter doesn't change the truth that is in the Word or the truth that God is. Here is one more explanation for you..
Gen 2:7
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
A Spirit is that which God creates within us, filling us, causing us to be a living soul.. Deny that.. IHS jim

Russianwolfe

12-21-2010, 02:35 AM

Hi again Marvin, I am not sure then based on your above statement that you are really wanting to define what "spirit" is.

Doesn't this verse clearly say that the "spirit" are His words? Does it not say that the "spirit" makes alive? How can this not be a definition? Or do you reject this simply because you don't agree?

Describing what a spirit does or can do, does not tell us what it is. I can tell you that I am a computer programmer, but then so are many people. What does that tell you about what I am? Nothing. It describes actions that I perform, but that is not what I am.

Joh 6:63 It is the Spirit that makes alive, the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit and are life.

Perhaps you are looking for something more?

As I have asked, I am looking for a Biblical definition of what a spirit is. Describing what a spirit does, is not a definition of what a spirit is.

Marvin

Libby

12-21-2010, 03:23 AM

If we can't know what God is and this scripture is true, then we don't have eternal life. That means that that the Bible is lacking in something essential to our salvation.

Yes, I understand this is your bottom line, but I don't think we need to (or CAN) understand God's essence. What is more important to our salvation is to understand God's love...his character and nature. Our salvation sprang from a recognition of his great love..not from a complete understanding of what it means to be "spirit". Yes?

ErikErik

12-21-2010, 04:06 AM

As I have pointed out many times, telling me what a spirit isn't doesn't help. I want to know what the Bible says a spirit is. If you can't tell me that, then you can't tell me what God is if you really believe that God is spirit. How can you claim to know God if you don't know what the Bible says spirit is?

But what does that mean? If you can't tell me what the Bible says Spirit is, what does that mean. Until you can tell me what the Bible says spirit is, then this means nothing.

You claim that Christ is still on the cross because he is beyond time and space. That is what you have claimed about God. But until you can provide a Biblical teaching about what spirit is, you can't even say this. If God is spirit and the Bible provides no definition of what spirit is, then this beyond space and time thing is only your convoluted logic attempting to read a conclusion you already believed.

I don't quite see the jump from spirit to invisibility. The could be many reasons why God is invisible without resorting to because he is spirit. When Christ appeared to the apostles they thought they were seeing a spirit. Thus, we have an indication that spirits aren't exactly invisible. And Christ did not contract did that aspect of their belief. All he did is point out what a spirit is not.

That God is beyond space and time, that is a perversion of the Bible. Christ told his apostles that he had a body of flesh and bones to contradict that is a perversion of the Bible. The scriptures tell the story of this earth and nothing more. Any statement by God in the Bible relates only to this earth. Before this earth is eternity as the ancient Hebrew believed it not as the Greeks defined it. The Bible is silent on things that might have happened before this earth was created. And it is more than just vague about what happens after the judgement. But the Bible is very clear about what is required for salvation here and now.

Most of what you have said about God that you believe to be true, comes from Greek philosophy mingled with scripture. It was first said by Greek philosophers and their student before it became part of Christian theology.

I say, let the blind lead the blind and they shall both fall in a ditch.

If the Bible has not definition about what spirit is, then that leaves a really big hole in our understanding of who and what God is. And that leaves us without salvation because Christ told us:

If we can't know what God is and this scripture is true, then we don't have eternal life. That means that that the Bible is lacking in something essential to our salvation.

Marvin

We don't have to know what God is to have eternal life. Jesus told us how to have eternal life many times. Christ alone is the way to salvation.

The problem is Marvin, you want the Holy Bible to spell everything out in no uncertain terms. God chooses to reveal only what He wants about Himself. Jesus didn't go around saying in specific words that He was God. He asked the people who they believed He was. Its faith that pleases God. Thomas finally understood this when the Holy Spirit revealed it to him that Jesus is God and Lord. The Bible is clear that God does not have a body of flesh and bone/blood. You won't find that anywhere in all of Scripture. If someone shows you what a spirit is not, then the opposite is true: God does not have a body. He's immaterial, non tangible, invisible. Joe Smith shows up and says God has a body and you believe him. Where is the evidence? One man's word is all you have.

The lds wants a God that is more human, more like us. But He never was and never will be. God told us that in His word. He is the Holy, Eternal, Uncreated. Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen...Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear. (Heb. 11:1,3)

Bottom line: it takes faith to believe in God, not using your naked eye or human reasoning. You have been given the scriptures which say God is invisible but still you refuse to believe. I think you want Mormonism more that you reject all scripture that conflicts with the teachings of your church. You are like doubting Thomas who refused to believe until he could touch the wounds and see with his own eyes. But Jesus said more blessed are those who have not seen, but believe.

You can't make the jump from what Smith said to what the Bible says because you have listened to Smith for so long that it seems true to you. This is why you struggle with God being invisible and outside of time. This is not a perversion of the Bible. Read it again: A thousand years is like a day to God, and a day is like a thousand years. God is not confined to 24 hour days.

Knox

12-21-2010, 12:56 PM

We don't have to know what God is to have eternal life.
Excellent! Then LDS people do not have to know that God is 3 persons in one being in order to be saved. Right?

Knox

12-21-2010, 01:03 PM

No one will ever be able to give you what you insist on having..
He insists on having important spiritual info. Info you say the Bible does not have. What do you think about this fact? Do you think that the Bible once did have this essential info, but it got deleted at some point in the history of the Bible? Or do you think that God never wanted people to know this info, so He deliberately kept it out of the Bible from day one?

Russianwolfe

12-21-2010, 01:14 PM

Yes, I understand this is your bottom line, but I don't think we need to (or CAN) understand God's essence. What is more important to our salvation is to understand God's love...his character and nature. Our salvation sprang from a recognition of his great love..not from a complete understanding of what it means to be "spirit". Yes?

You, like the others, are compromising the Bible. You refuse to allow the Bible to define itself but insist on compromising it so that it can be explained in terms that agree with what you already believe. And you criticize us for our belief that the translations are not perfect.

Marvin

ErikErik

12-21-2010, 01:56 PM

Excellent! Then LDS people do not have to know that God is 3 persons in one being in order to be saved. Right?

It doesn't sound like you understand what Jesus Christ meant when he told us we MUST be born-again or we cannot see the kingdom of God. Nor do you understand that Jesus Christ alone is the way to salvation.

ErikErik

12-21-2010, 02:00 PM

You, like the others, are compromising the Bible. You refuse to allow the Bible to define itself but insist on compromising it so that it can be explained in terms that agree with what you already believe. And you criticize us for our belief that the translations are not perfect.

Marvin

You show a lack of respect for the Holy Bible by denying its the very word of God. God said He alone is God, there are no others. One day you will stand before God to give an account and you will answer to why you believed in a different gospel filled with zillions of gods. when God almighty told YOU there aren't any anywhere!!

Explain to Him why you chose to be polytheistic. Abraham believed in one God and it was declared as righteousness. You will not stand before God innocent.

Russianwolfe

12-21-2010, 02:21 PM

We don't have to know what God is to have eternal life. Jesus told us how to have eternal life many times. Christ alone is the way to salvation.

And now you are denying the Bible. The scripture says:

John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Why do you compromise the Bible? Why does the Bible have to be explained rather than undestood? Why don't you simply believe the Bible?

The problem is Marvin, you want the Holy Bible to spell everything out in no uncertain terms.

And here I thought you were using that very at***ude to prove LDS doctrine was wrong. After all, don't you say that LDS doctrine is wrong because it is not in the Bible? You want the Bible to spell it out or it is false. Where the Bible speaks you speak, where the Bible is silent your are silent and anyone who speaks where the Bible is silent is absolutely and complete wrong. Isn't that your at***ude? Tell that to Noah, or Moses. I think they might have an at***udinal correction for you.

God chooses to reveal only what He wants about Himself.

And John 17:3 reveals a very important fact about salvation. And you, who believes that God is spirit, are lacking the ability to know God because the Bible doesn't have a definition of what spirit is. Why would God set you up for failure like this?

Jesus didn't go around saying in specific words that He was God. He asked the people who they believed He was.

And when Peter told him, Christ said that flesh and blood (a living mortal man, sorta like Christ) had not revealed it to him. Christ relied the Father to witness to those who wanted to believe, exactly who Christ was and Peter was one of those who wanted to believe.

Matthew 16:13¶When Jesus came into the coasts of Cæsarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?

14And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.

15He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?

16And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

17And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

Its faith that pleases God. Thomas finally understood this when the Holy Spirit revealed it to him that Jesus is God and Lord.

We aren't talking about faith here, Erik. Try to stay focused.

The Bible is clear that God does not have a body of flesh and bone/blood. You won't find that anywhere in all of Scripture.

And yet Christ was born of a woman like any other man thus obtained a body of flesh and blood. He lived as a man with all the trials and stresses of having a body. He died and they buried his body of flesh and blood and on the third day he arose from the dead with a body of flesh and bones. And you are trying to tell me that God does not have a body. Does that mean you don't believe Christ was resurrected?

If someone shows you what a spirit is not, then the opposite is true: God does not have a body.

As I have pointed out many, many times. What a spirit isn't doesn't help. A spirit is also not a bug, nor is it a bird. All of which does not help us understand what a spirit is. And your statements have a sum value of nothing.

He's immaterial, non tangible, invisible.

How do you know this if the Bible does not tell you that this is what a spirit is. Where does the Bible say a spirit is immaterial. That is an old medeval belief and it has not more basis in Biblical doctrine than the flat earth. How do you know it is non tangible? Where in the Bible did you get that idea? How can you know this if the Bible does not tell you so. As I learned in Bible Summer Camp, Jesus Loves Me Because the Bible Tells Me So. But you are revealing that you know more than the Bible? Are you above the Bible? Are you equal with God that you can say something is true that the Bible does not say?

Joe Smith shows up and says God has a body and you believe him. Where is the evidence? One man's word is all you have.

Stay focused, Erick, we are talking about what a spirit is not about what Joseph Smith say.

And please note, that even you should believe that Christ has a body. Are you now revealing that you believe in two Gods, one with a body and one without?

The lds wants a God that is more human, more like us.

I reject your claim that we want a God who more human. We want a God who is our father, really our father which makes us more like him and does not make him more like us. LDS doctrine raises man a little higher but does not lessen or reduce God.

But He never was and never will be.

You claim that is without Biblical evidence.

God told us that in His word. He is the Holy, Eternal, Uncreated.

There is no uncreated doctrine in the Bible. This is a creation of the Greek philosophers that was adopted by the Christian leadership when they lost direct revelation from God.

Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen...Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear. (Heb. 11:1,3)

Focus Erik. We are talking about spirit not faith. And you have a rather paradox to solve. Why would Christ say that to know God is life eternal and then fail to tell you what spirit is since, if what you believe is true, thus denying you salvation. Or do you believe that Christ was lying? Are you telling me that you deny what Christ said in the Bible? Are you casting doubt on the veracity of the Bible?

Bottom line: it takes faith to believe in God, not using your naked eye or human reasoning. You have been given the scriptures which say God is invisible but still you refuse to believe.

I don't refuse to believe, but I don't accept what you say without thinking about it first. And I have thought about it and I know you are wrong. God is invisible because he choses to be.

I have provided you with quotes from the Bible where people have seen God and you have refused to believe the Bible. I don't care if you don't believe me, but for someone who says that his beliefs are Biblically based, I find that you refuse to believe the quotes I have provided an earthshattering revelation. You only believe what you want to believe and reject the rest. Very revealing Erik, very revealing.

I think you want Mormonism more that you reject all scripture that conflicts with the teachings of your church.

I have not rejected any scriptures. I have provided simple explanations. I don't rely on convoluted logic to provide my explanation. Something you haven't done.

You are like doubting Thomas who refused to believe until he could touch the wounds and see with his own eyes. But Jesus said more blessed are those who have not seen, but believe.

For someone who claims he believes in the Bible and only believes what the Bible tells him to believe, you are creating a fantastic amount of non-Biblcal beliefs. Sorta like what you accuse the LDS of doing. Ready to join us?

You can't make the jump from what Smith said to what the Bible says because you have listened to Smith for so long that it seems true to you.

Again, you are completely and totally wrong. I see a perfect harmony between the two and I have shown you that harmony in the explanations I have provided.

This is why you struggle with God being invisible and outside of time.

You have no Biblical basis for these beliefs. None whatsoever. And yet, find fault with me for not believing them. I guess you really do believe you are God.

This is not a perversion of the Bible. Read it again: A thousand years is like a day to God, and a day is like a thousand years. God is not confined to 24 hour days.

As I pointed out before, God is immortal and does not measure time as we do. Your explanation is a private one that has no basis in the Bible.

2 Peter 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

You wrest the scriptures unto you own destruction.

2 Peter 3:16
As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

Marvin

Russianwolfe

12-21-2010, 02:26 PM

You show a lack of respect for the Holy Bible by denying its the very word of God. God said He alone is God, there are no others. One day you will stand before God to give an account and you will answer to why you believed in a different gospel filled with zillions of gods. when God almighty told YOU there aren't any anywhere!!

Explain to Him why you chose to be polytheistic. Abraham believed in one God and it was declared as righteousness. You will not stand before God innocent.

Focus Erik. We are talking about what Spirit is. You keep creating these rabbit trails and you will lose your mind.

Marvin

James Banta

12-21-2010, 04:26 PM

Actually James you are the one who is refusing to believe what the Bible teaches. You have yet to address the fact that the apostle thought they saw a spirit when Christ appeared to them. You can't simply say that a spirit is invisible when Christ did not correct them and say that they couldn't be seeing a spirit because a spirit is invisible. Christ told them that a spirit does not have flesh and bones as he (Christ) had.

No matter how many times you say that a spirit is invisible, Luke contradicts you every time. When you can address this scripture in a way that does not compromise what it says, this discussion can continue. Until then you have an apparent contradiction to deal with. Is a spirit really invisible because God is invisible or is there something else that you have not considered?

Marvin

I don't understand why you would say I am denying the scripture by saying that if Jesus said that God is Spirit that he would be invisible. Does the Bible not teach that Jesus is the image of the invisible God?

Col 1:15
Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature
It isn't me that is denying the scripture here.. It would seem as if anyone that denies that the Father is the invisible God is doing that..

Because the Apostles believed in ghosts is not a fault in Jesus or in God, they were WRONG. As wrong as anyone that would say or teach that "the Father has a body as tangible as man's"..

So if God is Spirit and invisible, it isn't a giant leap to understand that a Spirit is invisible.. That leads to the question of Luke, in the Christmas story.. Are Angels spirits or are they some other sort of spiritual creation.. I would say since an angel can be revealed to the eyes and minds of men that they are not spirits.. I don't recall one reference in the Bible where an angel said they were a spirit.. There is no reference in the Bible where they are called a spirit..

Jesus did correct the apostles that believed Jesus to be a spirit.. He said that spirits didn't have flesh and bone.. He said nothing about the nature of angels.. IHS jim

Russianwolfe

12-21-2010, 04:55 PM

I don't understand why you would say I am denying the scripture by saying that if Jesus said that God is Spirit that he would be invisible. Does the Bible not teach that Jesus is the image of the invisible God?

Col 1:15
Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature
It isn't me that is denying the scripture here.. It would seem as if anyone that denies that the Father is the invisible God is doing that..

If Christ is in the image of the invisible God, then the invisible God must have an image that is not invisible, else there would be no image for Christ to be in. So by the very verse you quote, it implies that God the Father is not invisible just not seen by us at this time. Probably because God the Father chooses to not be seen.

Because the Apostles believed in ghosts is not a fault in Jesus or in God, they were WRONG. As wrong as anyone that would say or teach that "the Father has a body as tangible as man's"..

But Christ didn't contradict that belief. In fact, he told them there was a difference between him and a spirit, confiming that what they believed about spirit was true but there was a difference with Christ. So the apostles were not wrong. They were correct.

So if God is Spirit and invisible,

You have not established that God is invisible because he is spirit. You have only established that is is invisible and that he is spirit. Since Christ did not tell the apostles that spirits were invisible, you have one count against that belief. Do you have any other verse that talks about spirits? If not, we have to conclude that spirits are not invisible.

it isn't a giant leap to understand that a Spirit is invisible..

Sorry, but you have not evidence to make this conclusion.

That leads to the question of Luke, in the Christmas story.. Are Angels spirits or are they some other sort of spiritual creation.. I would say since an angel can be revealed to the eyes and minds of men that they are not spirits.. I don't recall one reference in the Bible where an angel said they were a spirit.. There is no reference in the Bible where they are called a spirit..

Jesus did correct the apostles that believed Jesus to be a spirit.. He said that spirits didn't have flesh and bone.. He said nothing about the nature of angels.. IHS jim

And he said nothing about spirits being invisible either, which contradicts your attempt to equal spirits with being invisible.

Marvin

Libby

12-21-2010, 09:40 PM

You, like the others, are compromising the Bible. You refuse to allow the Bible to define itself but insist on compromising it so that it can be explained in terms that agree with what you already believe. And you criticize us for our belief that the translations are not perfect.

Marvin

Not sure what you mean. The Bible says, God is love. You are right that there is not a very clear definition of "spirit", in the Bible. Not quite understanding why you believe this is critical to salvation.

I don't criticize anyone for believing the "translations are not perfect". I don't believe that any of the translations are perfect, myself (and neither do most Christians). I'm not really in the "inerrant" camp, either.

I probably shouldn't have entered this conversation. I'm not trying to prove anything. I'm not trying to prove you wrong. I just thought you brought up an interesting question and I wasn putting in my two cents, for what it's worth.

Knox

12-21-2010, 10:13 PM

It doesn't sound like you understand what Jesus Christ meant when he told us we MUST be born-again or we cannot see the kingdom of God. Nor do you understand that Jesus Christ alone is the way to salvation.
I just find your statement interesting:

We don't have to know what God is to have eternal life.

You wouldn't deny Mormons eternal life just because they don't know what God is. That is very noble of you. Thanks for being so ecumenical.

Russianwolfe

12-21-2010, 10:42 PM

Not sure what you mean. The Bible says, God is love. You are right that there is not a very clear definition of "spirit", in the Bible. Not quite understanding why you believe this is critical to salvation.

John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

If this verse is true, and the Bible provides no definition of what spirit is, then how can you know God when the Bible doesn't tell you what spirit is and thus what God, who is spirit as you believe, is?

Marvin

bert10

12-21-2010, 11:50 PM

With the conditions that you have imposed...I do not think you will be able to learn anything more about the Spiritual God than the little bit God gave the wicked by way of the Bible.

The Hidden manna was reserved only for them that were perfect in love. And it was not written down.

Paul taught that only the Spiritual can understand the things that Are Spiritual and this includes GOD.

And so with the conditions...which you have imposed on yourself you have stopped all Spiritual progression in that area.

bert10

The claim is made that God the Father is spirit, and the words of Christ to the Samaritan woman at the well are used to back this up.

I understand the verse but I don't understand what spirit is. Can anyone provide any Biblical verses to show what Spirit is? And don't tell me what Christ told the apostles after his resurrection. I don't need to know what a spirit is not. I want to know what a spirit is.

Anyone?

Marvin

Libby

12-22-2010, 01:30 AM

If this verse is true, and the Bible provides no definition of what spirit is, then how can you know God when the Bible doesn't tell you what spirit is and thus what God, who is spirit as you believe, is?

Marvin

Yes, I caught that the first time around. What I was asking is...taking that verse into consideration, what is it about God that we really need to know? The Bible says God is spirit, yes, but the the Bible also says that God is love, mercy, comp***ion, joy, justice, perfection and Holy. What, of all of these attributes, do we most need to understand about God? Personally, I don't think having an exact definition of spirit is all that important. That's not really "who" God is. It is more of a "what", not a "who". It's kind of like saying you're going to get to know someone by understanding what their physical body is made of and how it works. Is that really how we would get to know a person? We will find out who God is by knowing and understanding his character...

Libby

12-22-2010, 01:38 AM

The Hidden manna was reserved only for them that were perfect in love. And it was not written down.

Paul taught that only the Spiritual can understand the things that Are Spiritual and this includes GOD.

So, you are saying this is not something we can even learn in a book.

Have to say, I kind of agree with you, here, Bert. I do think we have to establish a personal relationship with God to really and truly know him.

MacG

12-22-2010, 02:37 AM

The claim is made that God the Father is spirit, and the words of Christ to the Samaritan woman at the well are used to back this up.

I understand the verse but I don't understand what spirit is. Can anyone provide any Biblical verses to show what Spirit is? And don't tell me what Christ told the apostles after his resurrection. I don't need to know what a spirit is not. I want to know what a spirit is.

Anyone?

Marvin

Marvin,

Are you asking if we can know what the substance of Spirit is and is that found in the Bible?

MacG

ErikErik

12-22-2010, 03:58 AM

God is not obligated to reveal everything about Himself or about anything else. He doesn't owe us anything. It seems that the lds wants answers to everything. Joe Smith did and invented that God has a body like ours which the Scriptures nowhere supports. Its the need to humanize God in order to understand Him better. But His ways and thoughts are so much higher than ours that we as finite humans cannot grasp His greatness. I think this is why lds leaders over the years wrote volumes based on their opinions to try and explain away things which have no basis in the Bible. Thus they cannot ever be declared doctrine.

The Bible says we are to worship God in spirit and truth. Faith is the substance of things not seen. It requires FAITH to believe in and worship God. Not knowing exactly what God's essence and being is has nothing to do with our salvation. Believing in Christ and His finished work on the Cross does.

TheSword99

12-22-2010, 04:59 AM

The Bible says we are to worship God in spirit and truth.True worship is in spirit, from the heart.

It is in Truth, which means it is according to the Word of God, which is TRUTH (John. 17:17). Jesus said thy word is Truth. Jesus is also the Way, the Life and the Truth.

The nature of God is spirit. All spirits are invisible to the human eye. We are unable to see the human spirit when it leaves the body to return to God who gave it (Ecc. 12:7).

Col. 1:15 says: He is the image of the invisible God.

1 Tim. 1:17 Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.

Luke 24:39 “See My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself; touch Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have.”

You cannot see the hands or feet of a spirit. Christ told them to touch him. You can not feel a spirit because a spirit is not made of matter.

God is not dependent upon matter. Nor is the human spirit. The human spirit has consciousness apart from the body.

The rich man in Luke 16 could remember and feel in Hades. His body was in the grave, but his inner man, the spirit, was conscious and capable of all the activities of conscience life. Since man is not dependent upon matter for his existence, then how can God, the “Father of Spirits” be dependent upon matter for his existence?

Since God is a spirit, and He is both invisible and immaterial, He requires worship of a similar nature. Spiritual worship, not material worship.

Acts 17:24-25 “The God who made the world and all things in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands; nor is He served by human hands, as though He needed anything, since He Himself gives to all people life and breath and all things;

dfoJC

12-22-2010, 12:23 PM

Describing what a spirit does or can do, does not tell us what it is. I can tell you that I am a computer programmer, but then so are many people. What does that tell you about what I am? Nothing. It describes actions that I perform, but that is not what I am.

I disagree with your above statement. What you do certainly tells me a little bit about who you are. However, I will say that what you do does not define who you are. Since you are a computer programmer that tells me you have intelligence and that you have an ability gained through education of some kind, which tells me you are educated. You are LDS. This tells me that you have chose to believe in Mormonism-in other words you are LDS, it has nothing do to with what you do-it is who you are. (I am not saying that there is no action required here I simply point out the fact that you are LDS.)

Is I have asked, I am looking for a Biblical definition of what a spirit is. Describing what a spirit does, is not a definition of what a spirit is.

Marvin

Good morning Marvin. This verse, John 6:63 does not only state what the Spirit does, it also says what the Spirit is. Jesus says, "the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life."

Do you see this? His words are spirit and life. Words and life are not what he does-it is who he is.

Take care, have a very blessed Christmas,

dfoJC

Russianwolfe

12-22-2010, 02:53 PM

Good morning Marvin. This verse, John 6:63 does not only state what the Spirit does, it also says what the Spirit is. Jesus says, "the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life."

Do you see this? His words are spirit and life. Words and life are not what he does-it is who he is.

Take care, have a very blessed Christmas,

dfoJC

From what the scripture says, this use of the word spirit is not the same as the spirit we are looking to define by Biblical reference.

And Christ is not his words but what he did. He lived a perfect life, he suffered the Atonement and he was resurrected, amoung other things. Words can be used to give us an idea of what he did, but who he was is defined by what he did.

Marvin

dfoJC

12-22-2010, 03:37 PM

From what the scripture says, this use of the word spirit is not the same as the spirit we are looking to define by Biblical reference.

And Christ is not his words but what he did. He lived a perfect life, he suffered the Atonement and he was resurrected, amoung other things. Words can be used to give us an idea of what he did, but who he was is defined by what he did.

Marvin

Then perhaps you need to redefine "spirit" for us? How can you say, since you are seeking the answer to "what is spirit" that the use of the word spirit is not the same as the spirit we are looking to define by Biblical standards? You are simply not making much sense here.

Christ is not His words, there is a certain amount of truth to that, however the Bible also says that He is the Word? He is not defined "solely" by what He did!

In the end according to what you have written here we have failed to give you what you ask-for that I am saddened. So I am going to say good bye for now. Just one last comment, there are over 505 references in the whole bible that are mentioned-I would suggest that you begin to seek those out and get some revelation, for it seems you are serious in this quest.

dfoJC

Russianwolfe

12-22-2010, 05:00 PM

Then perhaps you need to redefine "spirit" for us? How can you say, since you are seeking the answer to "what is spirit" that the use of the word spirit is not the same as the spirit we are looking to define by Biblical standards? You are simply not making much sense here.

Statement 'God is spirit' is concrete but the spirit used in your reference is metaphorical. The use and meaning are different and don't help us understand what spirit is concretely.

Christ is not His words, there is a certain amount of truth to that, however the Bible also says that He is the Word? He is not defined "solely" by what He did!

But he is defined by what he did. There were many teachers in the world, but only one lived what he taught and lived it perfectly. Only one sacrificed himself for others, only one was resurrected. Yes, Christ taught but so did many other. But only Christ can be defined by the things he did more than by the things he said.

In the end according to what you have written here we have failed to give you what you ask-for that I am saddened. So I am going to say good bye for now. Just one last comment, there are over 505 references in the whole bible that are mentioned-I would suggest that you begin to seek those out and get some revelation, for it seems you are serious in this quest.

dfoJC

I am serious. And I am looking for something that I have obviously overlooked.

For centuries people have believed that God is spirit but from what this forum reveals, no one has a Biblical definition of what spirit is. If Christ was speaking true when he said, This is life eternal to know thee the only true God and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent, then we are lacking something that might endanger our salvation. If we have no definition of spirit we cannot know who God the Father is and if we can't know God do we have any hope of salvation?

Marvin

bert10

12-22-2010, 08:20 PM

James Banta

12-22-2010, 08:40 PM

That is right, what is Spiritual can only be discerned and understood by those who are Spiritual. Paul teaches this best.

In the Movie Matrix, Neo is trying to understand what is the Matrix and then Morpheus tells him that it cannot be understood until one experiences it.
and then Morpheus sets up a training agenda and let Neo begin to Experience the Matrix.

bert10

And no one can be spiritual if they worship Baal.. Since mormonism denies that God is Spirit (John 4:24) and a Spirit hasn't flesh and blood as Jesus taught (Luke 24:39). No one can say they are spiritual and deny the word of God.. In this whole thread that is all that is being taught by the LDS.. That God is NOT Spirit since they insist that He is a being of flesh and bone..

The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man's; the Son also, but the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit. Were it not so, the Holy Ghost could not dwell in us (D. & C. 130:22).

That is the opposite of what Jesus said God is as he told us that God is Spirit, and that a Spirit doesn't have flesh and bone.. This is further proof that Smith invented a God to suite him evolving doctrines.. IHS jim

James Banta

12-22-2010, 09:11 PM

[Russianwolfe;74671]If Christ is in the image of the invisible God, then the invisible God must have an image that is not invisible, else there would be no image for Christ to be in. So by the very verse you quote, it implies that God the Father is not invisible just not seen by us at this time. Probably because God the Father chooses to not be seen.

I can't believe you look right at the scripture after I have shown it to you and turn and deny it.. Only a God hater acts like that.. So why does Jesus have to be in the physical image of the Father? As a boy is growing up and acts in a certain way, he is said to be a chip off the old block.. Does that mean that he actually is his father? Not at all just that he is acting like his father.. Jesus therefore in in the Spiritual image of the Father. No one can be in the physical image of an invisible God.. Still the Bible teaches that He is the image of the invisible God (Col 1:15).. How can you argue with the teaching of the Scripture and then turn and say that mormonism agrees with the Bible and the Christian world is not? It's nonsense to teach such blatantly false statements as being truth..

But Christ didn't contradict that belief. In fact, he told them there was a difference between him and a spirit, confiming that what they believed about spirit was true but there was a difference with Christ. So the apostles were not wrong. They were correct.

Yes He taught that His resurrection Body is physically different than a spirit.. He never said that He was different in His nature than the Father.. In fact He always confirmed that He is one with the Father (John 10:30)..

You have not established that God is invisible because he is spirit. You have only established that is is invisible and that he is spirit. Since Christ did not tell the apostles that spirits were invisible, you have one count against that belief. Do you have any other verse that talks about spirits? If not, we have to conclude that spirits are not invisible.

I have established NOTHING!! God though His word has established that The Father is Spirit.. That a spirit is not flesh and bone.. That God is invisible..
1. A spirit is not flesh and Bone (Luke 24:39)
2. God is Spirit (John 4:24)
3. God is invisible (1 Tim 1:17)
Can't you see the clear revelation here.. God is Spirit, God is invisible, spirits are invisible.. It's clear..

Sorry, but you have not evidence to make this conclusion.
And he said nothing about spirits being invisible either, which contradicts your attempt to equal spirits with being invisible.

I have just given you scriptural reference that supports what I have been telling you.. All you have said is "IS NOT".. Is there anyone that has read this exchange that can't see that? Only if they are blind. Your attempt to dismiss me is really a denial of the Bible.. These aren't a doctrine that I made up just to argue with you, these doctrines come directly from the Bible.. IHS jim

MacG

12-23-2010, 12:20 AM

Marvin,

Are you asking if we can know what the substance of Spirit is and is that found in the Bible?

MacG

So Marvin, is that the question?

MacG

Russianwolfe

12-23-2010, 05:12 AM

I can't believe you look right at the scripture after I have shown it to you and turn and deny it.. Only a God hater acts like that..

Still using the same old tricks. A personal attack is not a good debating technique. It is called ad hominem and is considered a logical fallacy. You are showing your insecurities when you resort to tactics like this. Drop the personal attacks. You look weak and insecure when you use this kind of tactic.

I don't deny any scriptures but I do have a different understanding than you do. That doesn't make me a God-hater.

So why does Jesus have to be in the physical image of the Father?

Because the Greek word used for image implies a physical image not a spiritual one. Just as the Hebrew word in the Genesis creation story implies physical just as the birth of Seth also does. It is a physical image not a spiritual one.

As a boy is growing up and acts in a certain way, he is said to be a chip off the old block.. Does that mean that he actually is his father?

But the Greek word doesn't imply actions; it implies physical image.

Not at all just that he is acting like his father.. Jesus therefore in in the Spiritual image of the Father.

The Greek does not support you in this. Your argument is working against you. First you are trying to say that Christ is in the Spiritual image of his father. (Which by the way implies two gods). Then you try to say that Christ is in the character image of his father. But you haven't established that the two are the same. If spirit is invisible, how can you say Christ is in the spiritual image when that can't be seen? These are questions that you refuse to consider. As long as they remain unanswered you got real problems with your arguments.

No one can be in the physical image of an invisible God..

You say this inspite of what the scriptures say. You must be a God-hater to deny the scriptures like this.

Still the Bible teaches that He is the image of the invisible God (Col 1:15)..

Go back to the Greek. The word for image implies a physical image. You haven't provided a link between spiritual and invisible and I have provided you with a scripture that implies that spirits are not invisible. A point you have not answered. And you use that same scripture to show that spirits do not have flesh and bones.

How can you argue with the teaching of the Scripture and then turn and say that mormonism agrees with the Bible and the Christian world is not? It's nonsense to teach such blatantly false statements as being truth..

I am agruing with your interpretation of the scriptures not with the scriptures. Unless you are God, your understanding of the scriptures could be incorrect and definitely is faulty.

Yes He taught that His resurrection Body is physically different than a spirit.. He never said that He was different in His nature than the Father.. In fact He always confirmed that He is one with the Father (John 10:30)..

I have established NOTHING!! God though His word has established that The Father is Spirit.. That a spirit is not flesh and bone.. That God is invisible..
1. A spirit is not flesh and Bone (Luke 24:39)

I agree.

2. God is Spirit (John 4:24)

I agree but I do not limit God to being just a spirit. After all, I believe the Holy Ghost is spirit and God, just the way Christ before he was born was also spirit and God.

3. God is invisible (1 Tim 1:17)

Which I have pointed out was by choice not nature.

Can't you see the clear revelation here.. God is Spirit, God is invisible, spirits are invisible.. It's clear..

The only thing that is clear is that you are under the mistaken idea that your understanding makes you equal with God. It is your understanding and it is not equal with the Bible nor does it make you equal with God. It is what you believe but that doesn't make your belief perfect.

And yet, you have not answered the scripture that I have provided where Christ does not say that a spirit is invisible. Thus, you have not established that a spirit is invisible.

You also have not answered the point I have made that if Christ is God, then God has a body of flesh and bones as Christ told the apostles. A scripture that you have used but refuse to consider as I have used it.

You also have not addressed my point that God is invisible by choice not by nature. And one scripture that I have not used is the Garden of Eden where nothing is said about God the Father being invisible.

No, you have not answered the points I have made and the questions I have asked, so you have not establisehed anything. Answer my points and maybe you will have established something. But for now, you have too many points that still need to be answered before you can claim to established anything.

I have just given you scriptural reference that supports what I have been telling you..

But you haven't considered the opposing points that I have brought up. Engage the whole argument not just the ones you feel comfortable with.

All you have said is "IS NOT"..

And all you have done is whine Nuh-uh. Great dialogue. Endless repeating your points without answering mine is not engaging the argument.

Is there anyone that has read this exchange that can't see that? Only if they are blind. Your attempt to dismiss me is really a denial of the Bible..

You are not God and your understanding of the Bible doesn't make you God. I disagree with your interpretation of the scriptures but that doesn't mean I deny the Bible. This is an old tactic that you should let go of. Don't equate your understanding of the Bible with your understanding being scripture. It just ain't so. It is just your understanding and that could be faulty. This tactic is a propaganda trick. Sorry, I don't buy it.

These aren't a doctrine that I made up just to argue with you, these doctrines come directly from the Bible.. IHS jim
These doctrines are only your understanding of what the Bible says. You still have not provided any clear scriptures that say what spirit is. You can only use several scriptures and logic to prove something. Something that I have called into question but you have not answered.

And one more point you have to answer: If man and God are so different as you believe, then you will have to establish that on this point they are the same. Otherwise what ever you say about God does not necessarily apply to man. IOW, if man is so different from God, then what you say about God does not apply to man.

Marvin

Russianwolfe

12-23-2010, 05:14 AM

So Marvin, is that the question?

MacG

I stated my question in the OP. So far, no one has provided any scriptures that clearly answer the question.

If Christ spoke true, that to know God is life eternal, then the Bible is severely lacking in one very important point on our salvation.

Marvin

TheSword99

12-23-2010, 05:19 AM

I can't believe you look right at the scripture after I have shown it to you and turn and deny it.. . IHS jim

This is what the lds do and perhaps don't realize it. They have been indoctrinated in a different gospel. Their books/teachings testify to this. Thus these forums become a merry-go-round. What happens is that preconceived beliefs are read into the Bible p***ages.

The Bible teaches that the world cannot understand the things of God. God's word is spiritually discerned. One must be yielded to the Holy Spirit who teaches and guides. Unless one is born again, (or born from above), the Bible won't be understood to be the very voice of God. This is why Smith felt free to rewrite the Holy Scriptures and we see the continual distrust of it by most lds.

TheSword99

12-23-2010, 05:56 AM

James Banta

12-23-2010, 11:03 AM

The answer required more space than is allowed so I have had to remove your parts of the post so that it will fit..

I haven't called any specific person a God hater.. All I said was those that deny the scripture are such.. You said you don't deny any of the scripture so you wouldn't be in that group would you.. However if your "Different Understanding" changes the intent of what God has given us in the p***age then that would be a denial of God word. As I read Ezek 37 and Isaiah 19 the context the twisting and pulling on the text to make it sound like it is what you want it to be.. To reject God's interpretation that in included right in the text of Ezek 37 is to deny the scripture.. Excuse me but have you see that the context is about the two nations of Israel and not about a book or books? Again I defy you to find a reference where clearly stick is refereed to as a book, any book.. Books are called, books, or scrolls. Never is the term stick used to describe book.. There was even an LDS fellow who tried to tell us that stick and book mean the same thing in Hebrew. When I challenged him to come up with even a single reference for that he stopped posting on the subject..

Now it's your turn CFR.. Image can be physical or in nature.. Jesus is the image of the nature of the Father..

My doctrine on this subject implies two persons.. It doesn't imply two natures.. It doesn't imply two separate Gods.. I bow to the scripture here that God is one Lord, the only God that has ever or will ever exist.. Mormonism tells us Jesus became a God will after the Father was already a God.. This is in clear contradiction to Isaiah 43:10.. After all the LDS church teaches that this p***age is only for this world and Jesus and the Holy Spirit are called God in the Bible yet mormonism insists that they became Gods after the Father was already God.. Another clear denial of the scripture..

Tell me how that is? What is the physical image of an invisible spirit? Just how am I denying the scripture by saying that no one can be in the physical image image of something that has no physical image? You aren't making sense here..

This is implied only to a person that has it in his mind from the start that God is a physical Being.. That is where you start from it's where you end. It can be seen just as it is in English. A father can be the image of his father in his life's work, in his mannerism, in how he deals with the world, and still reflect his mother in looks.. It is no different in the Greek.. See can make comments that are unsupported worthless arguments as well as you can.. However I will not leave it as a personal opinion.. The IVP New Testament Commentary teaches:

Paul's understanding of Christ's significance takes shape in a Greek philosophical environment that defined image in this way. In referring to Jesus as the image of the invisible God, Paul means that Jesus is the very substance of God's purposes and intentions for creation.
The Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary on the Bible teaches:

Christ in his human nature, is the visible discovery of the invisible God, and he that hath seen Him hath seen the Father.

Unless I take as my interpretation the literal meaning of the p***age. It would appear that mormonism has taken a different interpretation of the Bible other than what it actually says. Mormonism has placed their private interpretation above the interpretation given by God in the Ezek 37 p***age about the sticks.. No Biblical teacher outside mormonism would hold that the p***age is speaking about a book.. No LDS teacher has been trained in hermeneutics. After all going to school to study the Bible is evil right? WRONG!!

The nature of God is the nature of God.. While he can create a body of flesh to walk in among men that was only done once and Jesus was the one sent to inhabit that body. There is nothing in the Bible that says the Father was ever Born into a body of flesh. Jesus pronouncement that God is Spirit and that Jesus is the image of the invisible God shows that the Father is not a physical person. You can deny the scripture in this all you wish it doesn't change the fact.. The Holy Spirit through Paul explain this fact more than once for in Romans 1:20 Col 1:15 1 Tim 1:17 Heb 11:27 that doctrine that the Father in invisible is taught..

Because you said so? That is all you have given me your say so.. You haven't even supported your argument by LDS sources much less by actual scholarship..

That is something I have never claimed.. I have God's word therefor what is said by me in quoting that word is God speaking not me.. You can attack what I say but if you deny what God has said then your faith that He is there and in charge is very suspect.. You attack my understanding of the Bible and yet your understanding flies in the face of the context of the p***ages under discussion. Read Ezek 37 and see that God give the interpretation right there in the context.. It is a interpretation that is about the divided nations of Israel not about two books.. That isn't my understanding it's the facts given by God written right there in the p***age..

And still I have shown that God is Spirit and that He is invisible.. It is you changing the nature of what a Spirit is by saying that they are visible not me for saying that they are NOT..

The divine Person of Jesus has a Body.. That is clear from the p***age.. the context of the p***age Jesus spoke that God is Spirit was directed at the Person of the Father not at Himself.. So if we see the Trinitarian view of who and what God is we see that the Father is Spirit, that the Holy Spirit is the indwelling Spirit of God, and that Jesus is the savior that holds the marks of our salvation to satisfy God's justice.. You are the one trying to make God one person here, I am not.

I have addressed this issue.. You have not reference that say that God is invisible by choice.. Jesus makes it clear, at least to the whole of the Christian world that God is by nature Spirit.. God is Spirit.. That is a pronouncement of Nature.. For your insistence that the Garden proves that the Father is not invisible I hold up the Bible again to answer the attack against it.

John 1:18
No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
Ok with that I say tat every time the Bible says that a man saw God, they saw Jesus, who like you agreed is God, yet is not invisible but is the image of the invisible God (Father)..

That is because you deny the scripture and my answers to your problems come ONLY from the scripture.. I haven't invented a church or a God to have that church worship.. I haven't written new revelations that dent the teachings of the Bible.. I haven't fooled men into trusting their hearts as the ultimate source for the establishment of truth. I tell the truth according to God word that the heart is deceitful ABOVE ALL THINGS, that included Satan.. It will lie to you depending on what the flesh desires.. Yours is in overdrive!

I have provided Biblical supporting doctrines for what I have said.. All you have said is your opinion.. You gave no authority other than "Because I say so" to anything you have said.. If you want to be believed use the Bible in context to support your claims.. I do..

That is what you do and the reason you are here.. "Oh you hurt my feeling telling he that My God is false because I insist that he is a created being.. And that there are three different Gods for this world.." So you stop the whining and show something Biblical that supports these false teachings.. Oh I know you will say that the word ELOHIM has plural meaning, right? But at the same time you will insist hat is it the proper name for one God, that being the Father. Are there more than one Fathers in Heaven with whom we have to do? INCONSISTENCY!!
Come up with an argument that make sense and but the unsupported or personal opinion and then we can see what the Bible says about them.. Not Me, I won't come up against your opinions.. God has already answered all your objections in His word..

I am glad that we agree about my place here.. I a a child of the Most High.. Unlike mormonism I don't claim or teach that mere men can ever become Gods.. God's word however is His voice and teaching for us.. While I don't claim to have everything down 100%, I do know that when He gives the meaning of His word right in the text He give a parable that is the way it is.. It can't be changes to fit into anyone pet doctrines.. I am not doing that mormonism is..

I have shown you several times what a spirit is and what a spirit isn't according to the scripture.. You denials of what the Bible teaches is your responsibility not because you weren't taught..

And one more point you have to answer: If man and God are so different as you believe, then you will have to establish that on this point they are the same. Otherwise what ever you say about God does not necessarily apply to man. IOW, if man is so different from God, then what you say about God does not apply to man.

I have shown you that God created the spirit of man within him.. That makes us a creation designed in His image.. God is unique and we will never fully know all about Him.. What we do Know He told us.. He is eternal and has existed as God forever.. He is a Trinue Being, since the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are all called God yet the Bible is clear that God is One Lord.. Man like his God is trinue Body, Mind, and Spirit.. WE will never share the divine nature though we will be one with Him in His glory. I am not sure if this answers your last statement if not I am sorry but it was rather incoherent.. IHS jim

MacG

12-23-2010, 11:14 AM

Russianwolfe

12-23-2010, 12:38 PM

Christ is the Word, the logos. God is also Love. He doesn't just love, He IS love. This is how the Scriptures refers to them. Jesus is the very word of God.

All of these useages are metaphorical. Not literal nor concrete. I am looking for a concrete Bibical definition of what a spirit is.

After His Resurrection, Jesus told the disciples to touch Him. That he was not a spirit because a spirit does not have flesh and bone. God does not have a body of flesh and bone since he as referred to as a spirit.

And now you have separated God the Father, who you claim is spirit, from Jesus Christ who you point out here has a body of flesh and bones. If they are both God, then you have two Gods. Now is the Father the Holy Ghost? Is the Holy Ghost God? If so, then you have successfully arrived at the same place the Mormons have been for 180 years. 3 beings cl***ified as Gods but separate resulting in 3 gods.

Congratulations. Now if Joseph Smith is a prophet, you are an instant Mormon, just add water of baptism.

Marvin

James Banta

12-28-2010, 03:09 PM

All of these useages are metaphorical. Not literal nor concrete. I am looking for a concrete Bibical definition of what a spirit is.

And now you have separated God the Father, who you claim is spirit, from Jesus Christ who you point out here has a body of flesh and bones. If they are both God, then you have two Gods. Now is the Father the Holy Ghost? Is the Holy Ghost God? If so, then you have successfully arrived at the same place the Mormons have been for 180 years. 3 beings cl***ified as Gods but separate resulting in 3 gods.

Congratulations. Now if Joseph Smith is a prophet, you are an instant Mormon, just add water of baptism.

Marvin

You have been given an answer directly from the Bible.. That a Spirit is invisible.. That it is not a being of flesh and bone.. These you have dismissed because being Biblical they disagree with you.. If you reject the teaching of God through His word you have no hope.. IHS jim

Russianwolfe

12-28-2010, 03:28 PM

You have been given an answer directly from the Bible.. That a Spirit is invisible.. That it is not a being of flesh and bone.. These you have dismissed because being Biblical they disagree with you.. If you reject the teaching of God through His word you have no hope.. IHS jim

I am asking for a concrete definition of what spirit is. All you can tell me is spirit is invisible and that was a definition you cling to about God. Now if God is as different from man as you claim him to be, this definition cannot apply to the spirit of man, unless you are attempting to say that God the spirit is like the spirit of man.

I have dismissed nothing because you have offered nothing. How can I disagree with what you have presented when you have presented nothing. You can claim all you want that I have dismissed Bibical teachings but you haven't presented anything. When you say God is spirit and then you say spirit is invisible, you are unable to tell me whether it is the nature of spirit that is invisible or is God, who is all powerful, choosing to be invisible. You can't answer this because the Bible doesn't say.

If the Bible doesn't say anything about spirit (and no one has presented anything other than being invisible and that has an unanswered problem) how can you tell me what spirit is?

Marvin

Knox

12-28-2010, 05:27 PM

I think you have stumped them, Marvin.

ErikErik

12-28-2010, 05:43 PM

I think you have stumped them, Marvin.

Yes we Christians are stumped by the mormons inability to rightly divide the word of God. You are given the Scriptures over and over and yet, time and time again the lds cannot grasp the meaning. If you need to look up the word: SPIRIT, get a good Bible dictionary.

Without the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, the Scriptures will never make sense.

Marvin, who did Jesus say was more blessed; the man who has seen and thus believes, or the man who has not seen and believes?

Russianwolfe

12-28-2010, 06:00 PM

Yes we Christians are stumped by the mormons inability to rightly divide the word of God. You are given the Scriptures over and over and yet, time and time again the lds cannot grasp the meaning. If you need to look up the word: SPIRIT, get a good Bible dictionary.

Without the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, the Scriptures will never make sense.

Marvin, who did Jesus say was more blessed; the man who has seen and thus believes, or the man who has not seen and believes?

All that you have said here is irrelevant. All I ask is a concrete definition of what spirit is. You haven't been able to provide any scripture the provides any definition of what a spirit is. God might be spirit but that doesn't tell us much because God is not the same as man which might mean that the spirit of God is complete and maybe totally different from the spirit of man. We don't know because the Bible doesn't tell us.

When you claim that God is spirit, what have you said about God? You can't say because the Bible doesn't say. And if the scripture can't be broken, the one that says (John 17:3) And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent, then you are missing half of your salvation because you have nothing to compare to the scriptures to make sure you are divining the truth about the true God. While you might know Christ that is only half of what this scripture says.

Does anyone have any Biblical scriptures that tell us what Spirit is so we can know God the Father?

Marvin

Russianwolfe

12-28-2010, 06:03 PM

I think you have stumped them, Marvin.

I didn't want to stump them! I wanted to learn what they knew about what the Bible says a spirit is. And all I get is the run around. No one knows. At least, no one has revealed that they know. So for how many centuries have they said what spirit is and yet they can't point to any Bibical scriptures that tell them? What have they based their definitions on? Is this an example of an extra-Biblical doctrine?

Marvin

ErikErik

12-29-2010, 05:09 AM

All that you have said here is irrelevant. All I ask is a concrete definition of what spirit is. You haven't been able to provide any scripture the provides any definition of what a spirit is. God might be spirit but that doesn't tell us much because God is not the same as man which might mean that the spirit of God is complete and maybe totally different from the spirit of man. We don't know because the Bible doesn't tell us.

When you claim that God is spirit, what have you said about God? You can't say because the Bible doesn't say. And if the scripture can't be broken, the one that says (John 17:3) And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent, then you are missing half of your salvation because you have nothing to compare to the scriptures to make sure you are divining the truth about the true God. While you might know Christ that is only half of what this scripture says.

Does anyone have any Biblical scriptures that tell us what Spirit is so we can know God the Father?

Marvin

Marvin, does your body consist of a spirit and soul? Can you see it? All humans are made with material and IMMATERIAL characteristics.

The lds has never been able to provide any biblical reference for baptism for the dead. They pick one single p***age in all of Scripture, but Paul never said that HE and the Corinthian church were practicing it. He said THEY when speaking to the church, not YOU or US.

The lds has never been able to give biblical proof that God has a body, that he was once a man. I could go on all day. But the point is you have beliefs that are not scriptural. So why do you believe what you do? Because of one man! That's a very shaky foundation to base your eternal salvation on. Where is the proof that Smith SAW God and Jesus? There isn't any.You took his word for it. Now you are pounding Christians because the Bible doesn't spell everything out.

You have been given the biblical p***ages that refer to God as invisible. You cannot accept it because it shatters mormonism who invented a human god.

Marvin, we CAN know God the Father. He has revealed Himself in many ways. He speaks to us through His word and in a still small voice. Jesus was the visible image of the invisible God. If you want to know what God is like, look at Christ. Read what God said about Himself. If you draw near to Him He will draw near to you. This is why Christ came, to reconcile men to God.

Russianwolfe

12-29-2010, 09:40 AM

Marvin, does your body consist of a spirit and soul? Can you see it? All humans are made with material and IMMATERIAL characteristics.

Where do you get the idea that spirit is immaterial? Is there a Biblical reference that you haven't shared with us yet? How do you know that spirit is immaterial? You are making a claim that you have not supported.

The lds has never been able to provide any biblical reference for baptism for the dead. They pick one single p***age in all of Scripture, but Paul never said that HE and the Corinthian church were practicing it. He said THEY when speaking to the church, not YOU or US.

We don't claim to base our beliefs on the Bible. Our beliefs are revealed by God and supported by the Bible. And it doesn't really matter how Paul phrased it. You cannot prove one doctrine true by citing a false doctrine. That would be like saying that 2 + 2 = 5 and 5 + 5 = 10 therefore 2 + 2 + 2 + 2 = 10. Paul wasn't trying to scam the Corinthians. It is more likely that baptism for the dead is a true doctrine and he used it to show that the resurrection of the body had to be true otherwise there would be no need for baptism for the dead. If baptism for the dead were a false doctrine, the Paul's reasoning falls apart and he fails to show that the resurrection of the body is true. And most important, Paul becomes a scam artist attempting to con the Corinthians.

The lds has never been able to give biblical proof that God has a body, that he was once a man. I could go on all day. But the point is you have beliefs that are not scriptural.
And what LDS claims that our doctrines are first based on the Bible? I don't. If any do, they are mistaken. Our doctrines are revealed. This is the same way that the 1st century Christian doctrine was established. Christ didn't have to cite scripture to prove that he was resurrected. He was the example. The Apostles didn't search the scriptures to prove that the church was founded upon prophets and apostles with Christ as the chief cornerstone. This was all revealed to them. But I often wonder how the community at Qumran came up with the idea that they would be presided over by two quorums, one of 3 members and another of 12 members. And this was long before Christ established the apostles. How did they know?

So why do you believe what you do? Because of one man! That's a very shaky foundation to base your eternal salvation on.
You mean like you don't depend on Paul and ignore Christ when it come to doctrines of salvation?

Where is the proof that Smith SAW God and Jesus?
There is no 'proof' that the unbeliever will accept. For those who want to know, God supplies the proof.

There isn't any.You took his word for it. Now you are pounding Christians because the Bible doesn't spell everything out.

I am not 'pounding' the Bible. I am simply asking a question that you are finding impossible to answer. And this is the tactic you are using in an attempt to divert attention from the fact that you cannot answer the question.

You have been given the biblical p***ages that refer to God as invisible.
But that doesn't tell us anything. You claim that God is complete different from man and if that is true, then your belief that God is invisible cannot be applied to the spirit of man. And I have asked if you can show from the Bible that God is invisible by nature or by choice. This you have not answered either.

You cannot accept it because it shatters mormonism who invented a human god.

You haven't given me anything to reject or refuse to accept. You have failed to answer the simple questions that I have asked. It is your God who is failing to support your beliefs. Maybe because your beliefs are false? Or maybe your beliefs are not Biblical as you claim?

Marvin, we CAN know God the Father.
Not based on what you have failed to provide scripturally.

He has revealed Himself in many ways.
But you haven't supplied any of the Biblical ways that he has revealed himself.

He speaks to us through His word and in a still small voice.
But this does not address the problem that you have created by not being able to define what spirit is through Biblical reference.

Jesus was the visible image of the invisible God.
This is a contradiction in terms, unless you are saying that God is invisible by choice and thus has an image that Christ could be the visible image of. Are you saying this?

If you want to know what God is like, look at Christ. Read what God said about Himself. If you draw near to Him He will draw near to you. This is why Christ came, to reconcile men to God.
But how does this answer the OP? Based on your failure to present Biblical reference for what spirit is, that is one aspect of God that we cannot know. All your other claims do not reference what spirit is and thus fail to give us any idea of what God is.

One last thought: If Christ was sent to reconcile man to God, does that mean that you believe in two Gods. I know you believe that Christ is God. But how can one member of the Trinity reconcile man to another member of the Trinity when there is only one Trinity? It's a lot easier to believe in a Godhead composed of three members, where one member (Christ) is commissioned with the task of reconciling the children of men to the Father. That is if you can shed your ancient prejudices.

Marvin

Billyray

12-29-2010, 10:30 AM

Based on your failure to present Biblical reference for what spirit is, that is one aspect of God that we cannot know.
Marvin

There are lots of things that we don't know about God Marvin. This does not mean that we can't be reconciled to God.

Billyray

12-29-2010, 10:34 AM

Excellent! Then LDS people do not have to know that God is 3 persons in one being in order to be saved. Right?

What he was saying is that we don't know everything about God. But we do know a lot about God and our view of God should be in line with what we do know. The Mormon God and the Mormon Jesus do not line up with what is taught in the Bible.

Knox

12-29-2010, 11:15 AM

True or false:

LDS people need to know that God is 3 persons in one being, in order for those LDS people to be saved.

Billyray

12-29-2010, 11:21 AM

True or false:

LDS people need to know that God is 3 persons in one being, in order for those LDS people to be saved.

LDS need to believe that there is one true God not many gods which is polytheism.

James Banta

12-29-2010, 11:23 AM

He insists on having important spiritual info. Info you say the Bible does not have. What do you think about this fact? Do you think that the Bible once did have this essential info, but it got deleted at some point in the history of the Bible? Or do you think that God never wanted people to know this info, so He deliberately kept it out of the Bible from day one?

As I was trying to tell Him the Bible does tell us what a spirit is.. A spirit is a person without Flesh and bone.. The Spirit of God in invisible.. If the Spirit that is God is invisible and without flesh and bone why is it so hard believe that the spirits of men that He formed withing us is also not the same, both invisible and without flesh and bone? These definition were both given to us in the words Jesus spoke..

What you have seen here is a man who doesn't wish to submit to what God has said about the subject..

I do see this to be an important doctrine because it tells us about who and what God is.. And salvation is to know God.. That would be both His nature and His purpose.. IHS jim

James Banta

12-29-2010, 11:50 AM

I am asking for a concrete definition of what spirit is. All you can tell me is spirit is invisible and that was a definition you cling to about God. Now if God is as different from man as you claim him to be, this definition cannot apply to the spirit of man, unless you are attempting to say that God the spirit is like the spirit of man.

I have dismissed nothing because you have offered nothing. How can I disagree with what you have presented when you have presented nothing. You can claim all you want that I have dismissed Bibical teachings but you haven't presented anything. When you say God is spirit and then you say spirit is invisible, you are unable to tell me whether it is the nature of spirit that is invisible or is God, who is all powerful, choosing to be invisible. You can't answer this because the Bible doesn't say.

If the Bible doesn't say anything about spirit (and no one has presented anything other than being invisible and that has an unanswered problem) how can you tell me what spirit is?

Marvin

is the spirit of man different than the Spirit of God? YES.. man is a creation.. God formed the spirit of man within Him.. Therefore the spirit of man in not eternal.. It had a beginning.. The Spirit of God is infinite.. It is from everlasting to everlasting.. The Spirit that is God in omnipresent. He is always, everywhere.. The spirit of Man is either within him or in God's care.. One place at one time.. This is because we are NOT YHWH..

Nothing about that doesn't mean that a a Spirit is not the essence of the person who we are.. Jesus corrected His Apostles again telling them that a spirit is NOT a physical being. Physical beings have flesh and bone. A spirit then is a being without a physical nature.. I would think if you believed God, and His word this would be clear to you.. Jesus said it.. The context is about Him a PERSON, not a inanimate object. A spirit therefore is a animate person without flesh and bone.. It's that clear.. Why you can't understand this from the text I offered is what is not discernible.. IHS jim

James Banta

12-29-2010, 11:55 AM

I didn't want to stump them! I wanted to learn what they knew about what the Bible says a spirit is. And all I get is the run around. No one knows. At least, no one has revealed that they know. So for how many centuries have they said what spirit is and yet they can't point to any Bibical scriptures that tell them? What have they based their definitions on? Is this an example of an extra-Biblical doctrine?

Marvin

Just because you reject the Bible's teaching on this doesn't mean that the Bible is silent about the matter.. Jesus said God is Spirit.. That A spirit is invisible. Yet Jesus addressed Him as Father and God ***igning to Him personal status.. A spirit then is a Person without flesh and bone, invisible to eyes of flesh.. It is only your stubbornness that holds onto a antibiblical teaching that is completely contrary to that of scripture.. IHS jim

Russianwolfe

12-29-2010, 01:52 PM

As I was trying to tell Him the Bible does tell us what a spirit is.. A spirit is a person without Flesh and bone.. The Spirit of God in invisible.. If the Spirit that is God is invisible and without flesh and bone why is it so hard believe that the spirits of men that He formed withing us is also not the same, both invisible and without flesh and bone? These definition were both given to us in the words Jesus spoke..

Telling me that a girl is not a boy, doesn't tell me very much about what a girl is. And telling me that a spirit does not have flesh and bones does not tell me what a spirit is.

I have asked you several times to show me from the Bible whether God is invisible by nature or by choice. You have not done this either. Yes, as you claim, Christ did say that God is spirit and in another place it says that God is invisible. But is God invisible because spirit is invisible or is God invisible because he chooses to be? This is important because if God is invisible by nature, then there is no chance of ever seeing him, inspite of what Christ said about the pure in heart seeing God. If God is invisible by choice, then he can reveal himself and then spirit is not invisible.

But you have not provided any scriptures to say one way or another. And yet you still maintain that God is invisible. I cannot go against the scripture but neither can I agree with what you are attempting to say because the nature/choice question have not been resolved.

You claim that man and God are not the same. You claim that one is created and the other uncreated. And yet here you speculate (with no Biblical support) that man and God are in fact similar. How can they be similar if they are so different. Is a created spirit the same as an uncreated spirit? Do you have a Biblical references that supports your claim? If not, then you have just created an extra-Biblical doctrine. Or is it a heresy? I guess that depends on whether you agree with it or not.

What you have seen here is a man who doesn't wish to submit to what God has said about the subject..

You haven't shown me that God has said anything about the subject. How can I submit to what you haven't shown me?

I do see this to be an important doctrine because it tells us about who and what God is.. And salvation is to know God.. That would be both His nature and His purpose.. IHS jim

And here I agree with you. I hope you can show me something from the Bible that will resolve this issue.

Marvin

Russianwolfe

12-29-2010, 02:34 PM

Just because you reject the Bible's teaching on this doesn't mean that the Bible is silent about the matter..

What have you presented to me that answers my question that I have rejected? From my reading of this thread, you haven't been able to find a single scripture that tells us what spirit is. Yes, you have scripture that says what spirit does not have but telling me that a girl is not a boy doesn't tell me very much about what a girl really is.

Jesus said God is Spirit.. That A spirit is invisible.

Christ told the woman at the well that God is spirit. I don't think Jesus said that a spirit is invisible. I think Paul taught that Christ is in the image of the invisible God which is almost saying what you want it to say. But you haven't been able to answer the question: Is God invisible by nature or by choice?

Yet Jesus addressed Him as Father and God ***igning to Him personal status.. A spirit then is a Person without flesh and bone, invisible to eyes of flesh.. It is only your stubbornness that holds onto a antibiblical teaching that is completely contrary to that of scripture.. IHS jim

But I haven't talked about what I believe. I am asking you to show me what you believe supported by scripture. You have failed to provide any that describe what spirit is. All this other stuff you bring up appears to be a diversion to cover up your lack of response to the main question.

To summarize:

You have pointed out that a spirit does not have flesh and bones (girl -> boy doesn't tell us much about girl)

You have pointed out that God is spirit.

You have pointed out that God is invisible.

You don't know if God is invisible by nature or by choice. IOW, you don't know if God is invisible because he is spirit or if he has the power to be invisible.

You don't know if a created spirit is visible and an uncreated spirit invisible.

You don't know if the Spirit of God is the same as or completely different than the spirit of man.

This is all we have after 4 pages of discussion. You are getting to the point where you are attempting to divert the thread into accusation of attacking the Bible or denying the scriptures or some other diversion because you are not able to answer the main question or the other questions that your attempts have brought up. Let's stick to the OP.

Marvin

Billyray

12-29-2010, 02:53 PM

Can anyone provide any Biblical verses to show what Spirit is?
Marvin

No Marvin I can't. Now what? What is your next move and where do you intend to go from here?

James Banta

12-30-2010, 08:32 AM

[Russianwolfe;74993]What have you presented to me that answers my question that I have rejected? From my reading of this thread, you haven't been able to find a single scripture that tells us what spirit is. Yes, you have scripture that says what spirit does not have but telling me that a girl is not a boy doesn't tell me very much about what a girl really is.

Since you hold up only two possibilities male or female if one isn't male it must be female.. No further explanation is required.. Since the Apostle thought Jesus was a spirit it goes to show that they were thinking this was a spirit of a human being not some kind of goat, cat, dog, or cow. Therefore Jesus was telling than that the spirit hasn't flesh and bone as He has.. A Spirit is NOT tangible..

Christ told the woman at the well that God is spirit. I don't think Jesus said that a spirit is invisible. I think Paul taught that Christ is in the image of the invisible God which is almost saying what you want it to say. But you haven't been able to answer the question: Is God invisible by nature or by choice?

Was not Jesus telling the woman at the well about the nature of God and not about His choices? The nature of God is that He IS SPIRIT. Jesus didn't say that God's choice is to be Spirit at His well.. He said God is Spirit.. The Holy Spirit through Paul gave us a clear statement about God's nature, not his choices.. He is the invisible God..

But I haven't talked about what I believe. I am asking you to show me what you believe supported by scripture. You have failed to provide any that describe what spirit is. All this other stuff you bring up appears to be a diversion to cover up your lack of response to the main question.

I haven't failed to tell you what the scripture teaches about God you have failed to understand that which is spiritually discerned. I can't teach you that you would have to come to God in faith believing what God has given to us in His word and then He would enlighten your mind. As long as you resist Him and run after the legends and doctrines of men you will remain in this stupor of indecision not knowing the knowledge and wisdom of God.

You don't know if the Spirit of God is the same as or completely different than the spirit of man.

Spirit is spirit. It's a matter of who the Spirit is and their power and glory that would separate them.. It isn't a matter of substance.. A spirit is NOT a person of substance.

This is all we have after 4 pages of discussion. You are getting to the point where you are attempting to divert the thread into accusation of attacking the Bible or denying the scriptures or some other diversion because you are not able to answer the main question or the other questions that your attempts have brought up. Let's stick to the OP.

Here is the difference Marvin I have believed and told you what the Bible teaches on the subject.. That word is sufficient for me. You demand more than what God has given us.. You won't get it..

2Cor 12:9
And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.
What He has said is enough.. You can doubt I will have faith.. That is the difference between salvation and ****ation.. IHS jim

Russianwolfe

12-30-2010, 10:04 AM

Since you hold up only two possibilities male or female if one isn't male it must be female..

That's fine is you know what female means. The problem is you don't know what spirit means. So if you don't know what female means, say that it is not male doesn't tell you anything at all. Zero. Nada. You are still on square one with no idea what spirit is.

No further explanation is required..

So your salvation is not that important for the Bible to tell you what God is? You are satisfied with the speculation that spirit is immaterial? You are satisfied with the contradiction that spirit is invisible but somehow visible? If you think no further explanation is required, then John 17:3 isn't a scripture you believe in.

Since the Apostle thought Jesus was a spirit it goes to show that they were thinking this was a spirit of a human being not some kind of goat, cat, dog, or cow. Therefore Jesus was telling than that the spirit hasn't flesh and bone as He has.. A Spirit is NOT tangible..

Is there a difference between between having a body of flesh and bones and being tangible? You seem to be reading into the scripture something that is not really there. Or can you show that being a spirit is 'NOT tangible' from the Bible?

Was not Jesus telling the woman at the well about the nature of God and not about His choices?

They were discussing temple worship.

John 4:16Jesus saith unto her, Go, call thy husband, and come hither.
17The woman answered and said, I have no husband. Jesus said unto her, Thou hast well said, I have no husband:
18For thou hast had five husbands; and he whom thou now hast is not thy husband: in that saidst thou truly.
19The woman saith unto him, Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet.
20 Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship.
21Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.
22Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
23But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. 25The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things.
26Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he.

So the discussion was not about the attributes of God but about temple worship.

The nature of God is that He IS SPIRIT. Jesus didn't say that God's choice is to be Spirit at His well.. He said God is Spirit.. The Holy Spirit through Paul gave us a clear statement about God's nature, not his choices.. He is the invisible God..

You clearly are confusing what God can do with something else. You claim he is the invisible God but that does not say whether God is invisible by choice or by nature. At the well, Christ said nothing about God being invisible. He only said God is Spirit and since the topic of discussion is about temple worship this statement must have something to do with temple worship not about the attributes of God.

I haven't failed to tell you what the scripture teaches about God you have failed to understand that which is spiritually discerned.

You object when the LDS put forth the concept of milk before the meat, but you are doing the same thing here when you claim that this can only be spiritually discerned. And don't forget that the subject of this discussion is what spirit is not what God is. You are the one who insists on bring the attributes of God into this discussion. As I have asked before, Are God and man so similar that we can say that their spirits are the same? You have yet to show that the Bible considers the spirit of man is similar to the spirit of God. And since you have yet to provide any scriptures to tell us what spirit is, you will have a difficult time showing this.

I can't teach you that you would have to come to God in faith believing what God has given to us in His word and then He would enlighten your mind. As long as you resist Him and run after the legends and doctrines of men you will remain in this stupor of indecision not knowing the knowledge and wisdom of God.

Same as meat and milk. You are waving the flag of surrender and trying to say you have not lost the debate. You are claiming esoteric knowledge, something that you abhor when the LDS make any kind of claim, especially when they point to modern scripture. Why is it alright for you to make this claim and yet wrong when the LDS do? I think we got a clear case of double standard here.

Spirit is spirit. It's a matter of who the Spirit is and their power and glory that would separate them.. It isn't a matter of substance.. A spirit is NOT a person of substance.

And how can you say this when the Bible doesn't? Are you superior to the Bible and can fill in the blanks? Are you equal with God and can tell us the truth as God would?

When you say Spirit is spirit, based on what you have failed to present here from the Bible, you have said nothing. You have no Biblical basis on which to make these statements. You are creating either heresy or new non-Biblical doctrine. In either case, it violates your claim of saying nothing except what the Bible says.

Here is the difference Marvin I have believed and told you what the Bible teaches on the subject..
Which is nothing.

That word is sufficient for me.
So you are satisfied that half of your salvation is missing according to John 17:3? If you are missing something is that not the same as missing all of it? Can you be saved by half a salvation or does it require the whole thing?

You demand more than what God has given us.. You won't get it..
Now you are speaking as if you were God? Are you sure you really want to take this stance?

I have heard a lot of claims about what spirit is in the many years before now. I have also heard the claim that God is spirit. So a few years ago I tried to determine what spirit was according to the Bible. I have been thinking about this for a very long time and this month I posted my query here. And you have proven that you are no better than me. You have no idea what spirit is because, as I found, the Bible does not say what spirit is. It was in this discussion that I realized how important this question was because Eternal life is knowing the true God and Jesus Christ whom he has sent. It chills me to think that you claim that God is Spirit and yet, as important as this knowledge is, you think it is not that important when your salvation depends on it.

2Cor 12:9
And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.
What He has said is enough.. You can doubt I will have faith.. That is the difference between salvation and ****ation.. IHS jim

I think I have pointed out how important this is. You can claim that what you have is enough but anyone examining the scriptures I have provided can see that you are lacking some very important information. And from what has been discussed here, we can see that a lot of speculation have been made that have no basis in scripture; so are they creating heresy or non-Biblical belief? Quite a claim for someone who claims to speak only where the Bible speaks.

Marvin

James Banta

12-30-2010, 10:26 PM

The response was again too long.. You will have to refer back to your post to see what I am commenting to..

The female is know by the attributes of that sex.. God is known by His attributes.. He is Spirit and NOT physical.. He is invisible, nothing in the p***age claims that it is a choice. No it is like saying you are not physical.. You can't change that nature this side of the grave.. Your soul is the union of your body, mind and spirit.. If you lose any one of them you are no longer a living soul.. That is unchangeable.. It is the nature of fallen man.. God must remain what He is or He will cease to be God.. Part of that nature is that He is Spirit, an invisible Person outside the limitation of a physical body.. Not subject to time or space..

I seem to be the only one in the conversation in agreement with the scripture.. I have no problem in holding that The true God has revealed His nature to us both in the fact that He is without a physical body. That He is a person of Spirit.. That Jesus is God and reveals the nature of God to us through His word.. It is Marvin that is in denial of the Scripture not me.. I don't claim that where worship is brought up that it is temple worship.. To worship is spirit and in truth is to be in agreement with God about who He is, and what He did.. You deny the teaching of these doctrines given there for both.. Therefore it is Christians worshiping the Father in spirit and truth while mormonism worships the figment of Joseph Smith's imagination is a way that he again invented..

Ok this is now your invention of what a spirit body is.. Not flesh and bone (That is a denial of Joseph Smith teaching as to what God's body is) but tangible? You will have to explain that one. I see you backpedaling to try to make mormonism more inclusive of Biblical teaching that God is Spirit, That He isn't physical. That He has no Body of flesh and bone.. That isn't what Smith taught:

Doctrine and Covenants 130:22
The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s...

Seems Smith wasn't as wrong as you are. He understood that to be tangible meant he has a body of flesh and bone.. For a person they mean the same thing.. The tangible part of a human is it's body. This is a simple fact and all you are doing by denying that is to also deny mormonism and the teaching of your own prophet.. You are getting as bad as Bert in making up your own religion here. I think you are doing this just because you like to try to cause trouble..

I am not here to discuss your own private perversions that have more in common with Atheism that they do with mormonism.. So learn your religion and then come back and defend it not these wild "what ifs" you have slidden into..

That sounds like he believed the Father had a flesh and bone body.. You are in contradiction of your own doctrine.. please explain!

Yes when a Person is invisible, a Spirit, they do not have a body of flesh and bone as Jesus had to teach the Apostles in Luke 24:39.

I have already committed on this.. That and there was no temple in Samaria.

See I go by what the Bible says instead of adding my own thoughts to it to make it say something it doesn't say.. Paul taught that God is invisible. He never said that God could be invisible at His will.. NO that is your invention.. Paul was clear He is the "INVISIBLE GOD". Just because you want it to say something it doesn't say doesn't mean that you are correct in adding your own desire for the nature of God to the text..

And yet I tell you what it says.. What I say agrees with others that I have never met and they tell you of the same teachings I do.. The have the eyes to see and understand.. You on the other hand are told of spiritual things and deny them flat out.. Mormonism doesn't want new converts to hear that the ultimate goal for it's members is to become a God like the Father is a God.. I understand why you don't, they would run away in droves..

The Bible says that man has a spirit.. That God is Spirit.. In this way we are in His image.. In the idea that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are God we are in His image because He is triune we are triune. I see no division of spirit in the Bible.. Spirit is spirit, flesh is flesh.. While flesh may be indwelt with a spirit it is not required to make spirit a living person.. The Father is a living Person and yet is Spirit..

I guess I am surrendering because the Bible doesn't teach what you want.. There is no description you seem to be demanding in the Bible.. There isn't one in all the books mormonism calls scripture either.. It is ***umed that a spirit is the spiritual essence of a person.. It doesn't include a body of flesh and bone except in mormonism.. That is a perversion that can't be proven in the Bible either.. It appears only in the wild statements of Smith.. It's not in the fullness of the Gospel (BofM).. And as I have shown you the D&C says that God has a body of flesh and bone.. That is something you denied in this post..

I say this because I see the p***ages I have used to TRY to explain the nature of God to you are the truth of His nature.. That He is Spirit and that a Spirit in the essence of a person that is NOT flesh and Bone.. You deny it.. That is the foundation of my faith in the physical nature of God.. You have rejected that as not good enough.. It is good enough for me.. Like I said it is spiritually discerned.. I haven't hiden it from you, not at all, you have chosen to reject it..

Yes and again all I can say is that Jesus said God is Spirit and that a spirit doesn't have a body of flesh and bone..That He is invisible. Enough for me yet too limited for you. It is you that add to the scripture to force it into your understanding.. I believe what it says.. I take God at His word..

Not at all I accept what He has taught me in the words of Jesus and the Holy Spirit through the Apostles.. He has taught me that the Father who is God, is a person of Spirit. That the Son who is God is a Person of flesh and bone. That the Holy Spirit, who is God, is again a Person of Spirit.. That is Biblical.. Smith at one time held and supported that theology (See 2 Nephi 31:21)

The Bible doesn't hold a definition of a spirit that you will accept.. I have shown that it does hold the meaning for those who will look and agree with God.. The Bible is clear and undeniable. It says that God is Spirit.. Jesus explained that a spirit is not a physical presence.. This isn't good enough for you so you toss away the revelation that God is Spirit completely.. You change that statement to men (According to the teaching I received when I was a TBM) that God has a Spirit.. And yet never in all the time I was in the Church did anyone explain what a spirit is.. What are spirit children? Are they not spirit? What are they? See all you can say is what they are not.. Explaining what they are is a whole different matter.. Yet the understanding I have of what a spirit is allows me to understand the meaning of a spirit. Even if I believe the doctrine that mormonism ties to what a spirit is in ERROR..

I see a lot of disbelief coming from you but I see nothing to change the doctrine that the Bible is not teaching that God is an invisible Spirit.. That is not non-biblical.. It is doctrine about His nature direct from the text. I see your denial of that text as your reason for this denial.. And you wonder why I have seen mormonism to be closer to atheism than Christianity.. It's the denial.. IHS jim

Knox

12-31-2010, 10:27 AM

James Banta

12-31-2010, 06:13 PM

How is the substance of God's essence (spirit) different from our spirit's substance? (oousios)

Saying "one is not created, the other is created" is not allowable as an answer because it does not address the essence issue. If spirit is spirit, regardless whether it's our spirits or God's that we are talking about, then our ousios is of the same type as God's ousios, which means that humans and God are ****iousios (that we are not literally the same substance as God, but we are composed of the same type of substance)

Another question for James/Billy/Erik: Is your spirit invisible, same as God's spirit is? Can God see your spirit? Can your spirit see God's spirit and live, then?

Another question: Does the Bible refer to Jesus as a spirit? If yes, then doesn't that mean that it's impossible for a person to see Jesus? If the Bible calls Jesus, who is deity, a spirit---yet Jesus can be seen because His spirit is inside a human body--then isn't Jesus proof that deities are not really invisible?

The spirits of man differ from the Spirit of God the same way natural diamonds differ from man made diamonds.. Can they be seen to be the same thing.. I don't thing so.. God is a being of self existent spirit. Our spirit are mere creations.. A creation of God that he formed within us not in union with a female "goddess" in a preexistant world.. That again is Biblical (Zech 12:1) not just a insistent "IS NOT" from us.. Your insistent "IS SO" is the only evidence you have as you make the claim.. It's not working with the Biblical students you are running into here on Walter Martin.. IHS jim

Russianwolfe

12-31-2010, 07:42 PM

James,

It is impossible to follow what you have posted here. You make claims about what I have said but I don't see what you are responding to. Try dividing the post into two parts so that you can include the original post. I am unable to respond to this post in a coherent fashion because I can't follow what you said without seeing the original post. Try again and divide it into two post.

Marvin

The response was again too long.. You will have to refer back to your post to see what I am commenting to..

The female is know by the attributes of that sex.. God is known by His attributes.. He is Spirit and NOT physical.. He is invisible, nothing in the p***age claims that it is a choice. No it is like saying you are not physical.. You can't change that nature this side of the grave.. Your soul is the union of your body, mind and spirit.. If you lose any one of them you are no longer a living soul.. That is unchangeable.. It is the nature of fallen man.. God must remain what He is or He will cease to be God.. Part of that nature is that He is Spirit, an invisible Person outside the limitation of a physical body.. Not subject to time or space..

I seem to be the only one in the conversation in agreement with the scripture.. I have no problem in holding that The true God has revealed His nature to us both in the fact that He is without a physical body. That He is a person of Spirit.. That Jesus is God and reveals the nature of God to us through His word.. It is Marvin that is in denial of the Scripture not me.. I don't claim that where worship is brought up that it is temple worship.. To worship is spirit and in truth is to be in agreement with God about who He is, and what He did.. You deny the teaching of these doctrines given there for both.. Therefore it is Christians worshiping the Father in spirit and truth while mormonism worships the figment of Joseph Smith's imagination is a way that he again invented..

Ok this is now your invention of what a spirit body is.. Not flesh and bone (That is a denial of Joseph Smith teaching as to what God's body is) but tangible? You will have to explain that one. I see you backpedaling to try to make mormonism more inclusive of Biblical teaching that God is Spirit, That He isn't physical. That He has no Body of flesh and bone.. That isn't what Smith taught:

Doctrine and Covenants 130:22
The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s...

Seems Smith wasn't as wrong as you are. He understood that to be tangible meant he has a body of flesh and bone.. For a person they mean the same thing.. The tangible part of a human is it's body. This is a simple fact and all you are doing by denying that is to also deny mormonism and the teaching of your own prophet.. You are getting as bad as Bert in making up your own religion here. I think you are doing this just because you like to try to cause trouble..

I am not here to discuss your own private perversions that have more in common with Atheism that they do with mormonism.. So learn your religion and then come back and defend it not these wild "what ifs" you have slidden into..

That sounds like he believed the Father had a flesh and bone body.. You are in contradiction of your own doctrine.. please explain!

Yes when a Person is invisible, a Spirit, they do not have a body of flesh and bone as Jesus had to teach the Apostles in Luke 24:39.

I have already committed on this.. That and there was no temple in Samaria.

See I go by what the Bible says instead of adding my own thoughts to it to make it say something it doesn't say.. Paul taught that God is invisible. He never said that God could be invisible at His will.. NO that is your invention.. Paul was clear He is the "INVISIBLE GOD". Just because you want it to say something it doesn't say doesn't mean that you are correct in adding your own desire for the nature of God to the text..

And yet I tell you what it says.. What I say agrees with others that I have never met and they tell you of the same teachings I do.. The have the eyes to see and understand.. You on the other hand are told of spiritual things and deny them flat out.. Mormonism doesn't want new converts to hear that the ultimate goal for it's members is to become a God like the Father is a God.. I understand why you don't, they would run away in droves..

The Bible says that man has a spirit.. That God is Spirit.. In this way we are in His image.. In the idea that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are God we are in His image because He is triune we are triune. I see no division of spirit in the Bible.. Spirit is spirit, flesh is flesh.. While flesh may be indwelt with a spirit it is not required to make spirit a living person.. The Father is a living Person and yet is Spirit..

I guess I am surrendering because the Bible doesn't teach what you want.. There is no description you seem to be demanding in the Bible.. There isn't one in all the books mormonism calls scripture either.. It is ***umed that a spirit is the spiritual essence of a person.. It doesn't include a body of flesh and bone except in mormonism.. That is a perversion that can't be proven in the Bible either.. It appears only in the wild statements of Smith.. It's not in the fullness of the Gospel (BofM).. And as I have shown you the D&C says that God has a body of flesh and bone.. That is something you denied in this post..

I say this because I see the p***ages I have used to TRY to explain the nature of God to you are the truth of His nature.. That He is Spirit and that a Spirit in the essence of a person that is NOT flesh and Bone.. You deny it.. That is the foundation of my faith in the physical nature of God.. You have rejected that as not good enough.. It is good enough for me.. Like I said it is spiritually discerned.. I haven't hiden it from you, not at all, you have chosen to reject it..

Yes and again all I can say is that Jesus said God is Spirit and that a spirit doesn't have a body of flesh and bone..That He is invisible. Enough for me yet too limited for you. It is you that add to the scripture to force it into your understanding.. I believe what it says.. I take God at His word..

Not at all I accept what He has taught me in the words of Jesus and the Holy Spirit through the Apostles.. He has taught me that the Father who is God, is a person of Spirit. That the Son who is God is a Person of flesh and bone. That the Holy Spirit, who is God, is again a Person of Spirit.. That is Biblical.. Smith at one time held and supported that theology (See 2 Nephi 31:21)

The Bible doesn't hold a definition of a spirit that you will accept.. I have shown that it does hold the meaning for those who will look and agree with God.. The Bible is clear and undeniable. It says that God is Spirit.. Jesus explained that a spirit is not a physical presence.. This isn't good enough for you so you toss away the revelation that God is Spirit completely.. You change that statement to men (According to the teaching I received when I was a TBM) that God has a Spirit.. And yet never in all the time I was in the Church did anyone explain what a spirit is.. What are spirit children? Are they not spirit? What are they? See all you can say is what they are not.. Explaining what they are is a whole different matter.. Yet the understanding I have of what a spirit is allows me to understand the meaning of a spirit. Even if I believe the doctrine that mormonism ties to what a spirit is in ERROR..

I see a lot of disbelief coming from you but I see nothing to change the doctrine that the Bible is not teaching that God is an invisible Spirit.. That is not non-biblical.. It is doctrine about His nature direct from the text. I see your denial of that text as your reason for this denial.. And you wonder why I have seen mormonism to be closer to atheism than Christianity.. It's the denial.. IHS jim

Russianwolfe

12-31-2010, 07:48 PM

The spirits of man differ from the Spirit of God the same way natural diamonds differ from man made diamonds..

Diamonds of any kind are made of the same substance: carbon. Only the method by which they come about differs.

Can they be seen to be the same thing.. I don't thing so..

Based on your ****ogy, they are.

God is a being of self existent spirit. Our spirit are mere creations.. A creation of God that he formed within us not in union with a female "goddess" in a preexistant world..

You seem to have a problem keeping on topic.

That again is Biblical (Zech 12:1) not just a insistent "IS NOT" from us..

We understand this scripture differently than you do. What makes you interpretation more correct than ours?

Your insistent "IS SO" is the only evidence you have as you make the claim.. It's not working with the Biblical students you are running into here on Walter Martin.. IHS jim

If you are any example, Jim, saying you are a student of the Bible is not accurate. A student of your own interpretation is more like it.

Marvin

ErikErik

01-01-2011, 06:02 AM

True or false:

LDS people need to know that God is 3 persons in one being, in order for those LDS people to be saved.

TRUE. Unless you believe in the God of the Holy Scriptures and the One true Jesus Christ, who is GOD, then you worship a false god and christ. a false god and christ saves no one.

God said in His Word that He alone is God. There are no others and certainly not zillions living on different planets. The Bible tells us that In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was GOD.

If you don't believe that or believe in many gods which is polytheism, then you worship a false god. You don't even know who God is Knox. You believe he was once a man like you. You have done what the scriptures accuses, made God into that of corruptible man. (Romans 1:23) You believe Jesus is your brother and the brother of satan. You have lowered Christ and hope to one day exalt yourself.

We don't have to know what God is, but who He is. God is not obligated to tell us everything. But He does tell us He is love, Holy, Righteous, omnipotent, omniscience, omnipresent, Sovereign, everlasting, etc. etc.

Marvin wants proof straight from the Bible that a spirit is invisible. I have given him 2 references that refers to God as invisible, yet it doesn't suffice for him. Yet he and you and all lds have beliefs that are not in the bible. Why do you believe those things? Why do you take a man's word over almighty God's?

James Banta

01-01-2011, 08:49 AM

[Russianwolfe;75110]Diamonds of any kind are made of the same substance: carbon. Only the method by which they come about differs.
I think that is a good description. God always is and we were created by Him.. That is a huge differs greatly in "the method by which they come about"..

You seem to have a problem keeping on topic.
Just so you know the topic here in "What is Spirit" the way that spirit comes to be is on that topic.. I agree with what the Bible teaches that God "formeth the spirit of man within him". Mormonism teaches that God formed the spirits of mam as a result of a creative act of himself and a goddess in some part of creation that existed before our bodies existed. Tell me that is a private interpretation.. I would love to see you deny your church's doctrine..

We understand this scripture differently than you do. What makes you interpretation more correct than ours?

Please show where I have interpreted the p***age at all.. It says, as I have already quoted, that God formeth the spirit of man within him. If someone is making an interpretation of the p***age it is you, not me.. All I am doing is quoting it..

If you are any example, Jim, saying you are a student of the Bible is not accurate. A student of your own interpretation is more like it.

Because I know what the Bible says and where it says it the idea of me being a student of the Bible rubs you the wrong way.. I have shown you here that what I do is quote the Bible.. You seem to be the one interpreting it.. Or should I say twist it to try to support a private interpretation? When the Bible explains to us the nature of spirit you demand the chemical make up of that spirit.. What is given isn't enough for you.. It's time that confess that you are aligned with God haters and have the same mind set as they do.. IHS jim

James Banta

01-01-2011, 08:53 AM

Telling me that a girl is not a boy, doesn't tell me very much about what a girl is. And telling me that a spirit does not have flesh and bones does not tell me what a spirit is.

I have asked you several times to show me from the Bible whether God is invisible by nature or by choice. You have not done this either. Yes, as you claim, Christ did say that God is spirit and in another place it says that God is invisible. But is God invisible because spirit is invisible or is God invisible because he chooses to be? This is important because if God is invisible by nature, then there is no chance of ever seeing him, inspite of what Christ said about the pure in heart seeing God. If God is invisible by choice, then he can reveal himself and then spirit is not invisible.

But you have not provided any scriptures to say one way or another. And yet you still maintain that God is invisible. I cannot go against the scripture but neither can I agree with what you are attempting to say because the nature/choice question have not been resolved.

You claim that man and God are not the same. You claim that one is created and the other uncreated. And yet here you speculate (with no Biblical support) that man and God are in fact similar. How can they be similar if they are so different. Is a created spirit the same as an uncreated spirit? Do you have a Biblical references that supports your claim? If not, then you have just created an extra-Biblical doctrine. Or is it a heresy? I guess that depends on whether you agree with it or not.

You haven't shown me that God has said anything about the subject. How can I submit to what you haven't shown me?

And here I agree with you. I hope you can show me something from the Bible that will resolve this issue.

Marvin

I have given you what the Bible says about the nature of spirit.. Unlike you I don't invent doctrines based on unbiblical writings of mere men.. IHS jim

James Banta

01-01-2011, 08:55 AM

Russianwolfe

01-01-2011, 10:26 AM

Marvin wants proof straight from the Bible that a spirit is invisible. I have given him 2 references that refers to God as invisible, yet it doesn't suffice for him. Yet he and you and all lds have beliefs that are not in the bible. Why do you believe those things? Why do you take a man's word over almighty God's?

And your references don't say that spirit is invisible. All you have is a reference to the invisible God and a reference that says God is spirit in the middle of a discussion of temple worship. You have not found the scripture that ties the two together. You haven't found a scripture that says that spirit is invisible but I have shown you that God being invisible is God's choice not God's nature because Christ promised the pure in heart that they would see God.

You have failed to make your case but I have used scriptures to make mine.

I have succeeded in proving that God is invisible by choice not by nature.

Marvin

Knox

01-01-2011, 10:48 AM

(LDS people need to know that God is 3 persons in one being, in order for those LDS people to be saved. True, or false?)

TRUE. Unless you believe in the God of the Holy Scriptures and the One true Jesus Christ, who is GOD, then you worship a false god and christ. a false god and christ saves no one.
But the Jews don't worship some 3-person being. If you ask them "Do you worship Jesus Christ?" they will say "No." So, using your reasoning, do Jews worship a false god? Seems like you have to answer "yes."

You don't even know who God is Knox.
You don't. You believe certain things about God that make it apparent that the real God is not much like what you believe. I believe that God is a kind, wise, fair-minded, loving, merciful, powerful parent. That is who I believe God is.

You have stated (when you answered "true") that I need to know WHAT God is or else I can't be saved. Yet you have also stated that

"We don't have to know what God is to have eternal life."

You have just been caught being duplicitous. Congratulations.

You believe he was once a man like you.
Isn't that a "what" statement?

We don't have to know what God is, but who He is.
Then why did you say that it is "True" that LDS people need to know that God is 3 persons in one being, in order for those LDS people to be saved?

Billyray

01-01-2011, 10:51 AM

But the Jews don't worship some 3-person being.

The Jews don't believe in Christ either. Are they right?

Russianwolfe

01-01-2011, 10:52 AM

I think that is a good description. God always is and we were created by Him.. That is a huge differs greatly in "the method by which they come about"..

But in the case of diamonds (and this is where your ****ogy fails completely) they are both created.

Just so you know the topic here in "What is Spirit" the way that spirit comes to be is on that topic.. I agree with what the Bible teaches that God "formeth the spirit of man within him". Mormonism teaches that God formed the spirits of mam as a result of a creative act of himself and a goddess in some part of creation that existed before our bodies existed. Tell me that is a private interpretation.. I would love to see you deny your church's doctrine..

The Bible says that God 'formeth' it does not say that God 'createth' the spirit of man within him.

We have no scripture that says how spirit are created. We only know that they are created from what is refered to as intelligence. Every thing you said about spirits is your own private interpretation based on the understanding of men who were speculating. Surely you knew this!!!???

Please show where I have interpreted the p***age at all.. It says, as I have already quoted, that God formeth the spirit of man within him. If someone is making an interpretation of the p***age it is you, not me.. All I am doing is quoting it..

And you are ***uming that forms means the same as create. That is your interpretation. My understanding differs. If God formed but did not create the spirit of man within him, then it had to exist before it was formed within man. For your interpretation to be true, form would have to be the same as create which it is not. You form something from something else. That is not an act of creation as God would do for your interpretation to be true.

Because I know what the Bible says and where it says it the idea of me being a student of the Bible rubs you the wrong way.. I have shown you here that what I do is quote the Bible.. You seem to be the one interpreting it.. Or should I say twist it to try to support a private interpretation? When the Bible explains to us the nature of spirit you demand the chemical make up of that spirit.. What is given isn't enough for you.. It's time that confess that you are aligned with God haters and have the same mind set as they do.. IHS jim

You must be right because you just said so. NOT!

You have to interpret the Bible otherwise you will not understand it. I know that the Bible says something, but once you attempt to explain to me what it means you have to interpret it. So your claim of not interpreting the scripture is false.

If anyone is aligning with the God haters, it must be you. You are not showing what you believe in meekness and humility as Peter said you should. All you have is what is not true, but you fail to show what is true in meekness and humility.

I have asked very simple questions and attempted to keep you on topic. You have failed to provide any scriptures that answers any of the questions that I have asked. All you have is bluster. I have shown that God is invisible by choice and I have pointed out that if what you believe is true, then God has left a gaping hole in your salvation by not at the very least telling us what spirit is so we can know God as John 17:3 says is Life Eternal.

How can asking questions make me a God hater. You have used this tactic before. It failed then and it will fail now. Name calling is not a valid debating technique.

Marvin

Billyray

01-01-2011, 10:54 AM

Name calling is not a valid debating technique.

Marvin
Marvin you don't really want debate, you just want to spread your false doctrine at any cost.

Russianwolfe

01-01-2011, 10:56 AM

I am not responsible for your inability to understand.. Think harder.. IHS jim

But you are because you removed my original post from your reply making it impossible to follow that you are replying to.

Next time, try leaving the original post in your reply and divide your reply into multiple parts. Its not that hard.

Marvin

James Banta

01-01-2011, 01:16 PM

But you are because you removed my original post from your reply making it impossible to follow that you are replying to.

Next time, try leaving the original post in your reply and divide your reply into multiple parts. Its not that hard.

Marvin

Your original question from your post has been addressed several time as to what the Bible has to say about the nature of a spirit.. You are just unwilling to submit to what God has revealed. You have to know the elements of a spirit.. Such things don't exist, that is they don't exist in the Biblical record.. What the make up of a spirit is is not important.. Know that a spirit is real and that God is Spirit is enough because that is what the scripture reveals.. All I have seen you do is complain that the Bible isn't adequate..

2 Cor 12:9
And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.
The revelation of His nature is a grace given to man.. All you have done in this whole thread is to deny that this grace is NOT sufficient for you.. A denial of the word of God as given to men by the Holy Spirit.. That is pushing toward denial of the Holy Spirit.. Be careful.. IHS jim

Russianwolfe

01-01-2011, 03:25 PM

Your original question from your post has been addressed several time as to what the Bible has to say about the nature of a spirit.. You are just unwilling to submit to what God has revealed.

But you haven't presented anything. How can I submit to what God has revealed when that is nothing? You have confirmed my own research, the Bible doesn't give us any idea what spirit is. Anyone who says that spirit is immaterial is not using the Bible. Anyone who says that spirit is everwhere present, is not getting that from the Bible. Everything we claim to know about spirit does not come from the Bible. That clearly means that the doctrine of spirit is speculation and guess work and has no basis in Biblical doctrine.

You have to know the elements of a spirit.. Such things don't exist, that is they don't exist in the Biblical record..

Then anything you attempt to say about spirit is not Biblical. Especialy when you attempt to say that our beliefs about spirit and God are incorrect, you have no Biblical doctrine on which to base that claim.

What the make up of a spirit is is not important..

But making up doctrine about spirit is important. And you and your friends make up quite a bit. Spirit is beyond space and time is only one idea that you claim is Biblical but I have shown that it is not. Simply by asking for a Biblical definition of spirit.

Know that a spirit is real and that God is Spirit is enough because that is what the scripture reveals..

But you claim much more than that for what spirit is.

All I have seen you do is complain that the Bible isn't adequate..

2 Cor 12:9
And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.
The revelation of His nature is a grace given to man.. All you have done in this whole thread is to deny that this grace is NOT sufficient for you.. A denial of the word of God as given to men by the Holy Spirit.. That is pushing toward denial of the Holy Spirit.. Be careful.. IHS jim

I have denied nothing of the kind. I have struggled mightily to keep you on topic and you are still drifting off topic. You have tacitly admitted that you have no Biblical definition of what spirit it. You claim that God is spirit and that God has formed the spirit of man within him. The problem with this is you also claim that God and man are extremely different and have no scripture to show that this is so. You only claim that God is uncreated for which you have no scriptures, and that the spirit of man is created, and the scripture you have used for this is vague minimumly and contradicts your claim is we get to specifics. Because you believe that the spirits of God and men are so different, you cannot claim that what the Bible says about the spirit of God can be applied to the spirit of man. According to your beliefs the two are so different as to be disparate not similar.

One thing we have learned is that the Bible gives us no idea what spirit is. That destroys a number of things that people on this forum and others have attempted to say about spirit. They have no scriptural basis on which to base the things they say. It was Erik that said that spirit was immaterial but that cannot be supported by the Bible. There are others but surely you get the point.

Since the Bible says nothing about what spirit is, there is no possible Biblical doctrine of what spirit is.

Marvin

James Banta

01-01-2011, 06:04 PM

But you haven't presented anything. How can I submit to what God has revealed when that is nothing? You have confirmed my own research, the Bible doesn't give us any idea what spirit is. Anyone who says that spirit is immaterial is not using the Bible. Anyone who says that spirit is everwhere present, is not getting that from the Bible. Everything we claim to know about spirit does not come from the Bible. That clearly means that the doctrine of spirit is speculation and guess work and has no basis in Biblical doctrine.

Then anything you attempt to say about spirit is not Biblical. Especialy when you attempt to say that our beliefs about spirit and God are incorrect, you have no Biblical doctrine on which to base that claim.

But making up doctrine about spirit is important. And you and your friends make up quite a bit. Spirit is beyond space and time is only one idea that you claim is Biblical but I have shown that it is not. Simply by asking for a Biblical definition of spirit.

But you claim much more than that for what spirit is.

I have denied nothing of the kind. I have struggled mightily to keep you on topic and you are still drifting off topic. You have tacitly admitted that you have no Biblical definition of what spirit it. You claim that God is spirit and that God has formed the spirit of man within him. The problem with this is you also claim that God and man are extremely different and have no scripture to show that this is so. You only claim that God is uncreated for which you have no scriptures, and that the spirit of man is created, and the scripture you have used for this is vague minimumly and contradicts your claim is we get to specifics. Because you believe that the spirits of God and men are so different, you cannot claim that what the Bible says about the spirit of God can be applied to the spirit of man. According to your beliefs the two are so different as to be disparate not similar.

One thing we have learned is that the Bible gives us no idea what spirit is. That destroys a number of things that people on this forum and others have attempted to say about spirit. They have no scriptural basis on which to base the things they say. It was Erik that said that spirit was immaterial but that cannot be supported by the Bible. There are others but surely you get the point.

Since the Bible says nothing about what spirit is, there is no possible Biblical doctrine of what spirit is.

Marvin

Nope I haven't shown you a thing.. Only John 4:24, Luke 24:39, Romans 1:20, Col 1:15 (Verse 16 goes on to say that he created all invisible things. What are they? SPIRITS!!), 1 Tim 1:17, Heb 11:27.. That is nothing right.. That is what I hear you saying.. These p***ages are wrong because they don't agree with you.

Yeap saying that a Spirit is invisible, saying that A spirit is without flesh and bone.. All lies because you say so it doesn't matter what the Bible teaches.. It's corrupt.. We have to hear only the testimony of Joseph Smith.. That is truth, right? It doesn't matter that Smith had several versions of what he called the first vision some that don't even include Jesus much less the Father.. Did he really change the truth that the Church has held about the nature of God for almost 2,000 years? He changed nothing even through he did try to pervert that truth.. God is Spirit.. A spirit is a person without a body of flesh and bone, who is invisible.. That narrows down by a lot the definition of a spirit.. But none of that is Biblical.. Just because this doctrine is based on the Bible mean nothing, to you at least.

Making up doctrine about what a Spirit is is a teaching I leave for the cults.. I say no more tha I can find taught about in the Bible.. Mormonism as an example of this by saying that a Spirit is a being of flesh and bone as tangible as man's.. That is the doctrine made up in the mind of a man not what I have taught..

I claim nothing about the nature of God, or the nature of spirit that is not taught in the Bible.. I understand completely why you would ask. It is quite clear from your responses that you haven't any idea of the nature of either..

I have said there is no definition in the Bible that you will accept.. Just because your heart is so hardened against the revelation of God through Jesus given to us in his word doesn't mean that I reject that nor do I admit that it doesn't give a definition for what a spirit is.. It's just that you refuse the definition given..

I have no scripture to say that God is uncreated? Where have you been It's right there in Psalm 90:2. In short it says that God has been GOD from everlasting to everlasting.. Then Isaiah was told by God that there was never a God in existence other then Him.. Not one before and not one after.. You of course can't understand that this means that He is God and has always been so.. You actually have to understand the meaning of everlasting and Go God was formed to see what that is saying.. Then mormonism calls God dumb because He doesn't even know about the formation of other Gods, when it's so clear through Joseph Smith that there are many.. But I have never used these p***ages, or to you they are meaningless..

You are right about one thing.. I can't prove that what is claimed for the nature of God can be held to the nature of a man's spirit.. They are different as you have agreed.. One is created and one is self-existent.. But since Jesus used the word to mean a man that has become disembodied by death as well as to mean the nature of God, well I think that the physical nature can be held a similar.. You can disagree with that, but since either idea is opinion yours is as good as mine and mine is as good as yours..

As I said before you see nothing in the scripture that explains spirit.. I do.. The words I have used about the nature of a spirit are in the Bible.. A spirit is a person without flesh and bone.. A spirit (At least the Spirit that is God) is invisible.. Just because you disregard that teaching from doesn't mean that the Bible is in error or that Smith's teaching are correct.. Al it means is you dismiss the teachings of the Bible.. IHS jim

Russianwolfe

01-01-2011, 10:16 PM

Nope I haven't shown you a thing.. Only John 4:24,

John 24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
This says that God is spirit. Does not tell us what spirit is.

Luke 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

This says that Christ had a body of flesh and bones. It does not tell us what spirit is.

Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

This talks about invisible things being seen, which contradicts your definition of spirit. Spirit can be seen if you include that in your list of invisible things. It does not narrow the discussion to spirit. It does not tell us anything about spirit specifically.

Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

(Verse 16 goes on to say that he created all invisible things. What are they? SPIRITS!!),

And here you are arguing from your conclusion. Yes, it says that God created the visible and the invisible, and then it goes on to expand what he was talking about and spirit is not mentioned. You have to ***ume that spirit is invisible to say what you said. But as I have pointed out, Christ told the apostles that a spirit does not have flesh and bones but he didn't say a spirit is invisible.

1 Tim 1:17 Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

And I have pointed out that you don't know if God is invisible by choice or by nature. I have also pointed out that Christ said

Matt 5:8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall csee God.

This shows that God is invisible by choice not nature, which contradicts your idea that spirit is invisible.

Heb 11:27 By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king: for he endured, as seeing him who is invisible.

Same as above and don't forget that God is invisible by choice.

.. That is nothing right.. That is what I hear you saying.. These p***ages are wrong because they don't agree with you.

No, you are wrong because the scriptures you referenced don't tell us what spirit is, and none of them even tell us anything about the spirit of man since you believe that God and man are not the same.

Yeap saying that a Spirit is invisible,
A point that I dispute and you have not answered.

saying that A spirit is without flesh and bone..
This is the one thing that I told you that we didn't need to know. A spirit is not a lot of things, and this is just one thing it is not. The question is what spirit is.

All lies because you say so it doesn't matter what the Bible teaches..
Never said that. You are the one that is drowning in the lack of information from the Bible.

It's corrupt..
Never said that. Now your insecuri***es are beginning to show.

We have to hear only the testimony of Joseph Smith..
Never said that. Your insecurities are showing.

That is truth, right? It doesn't matter that Smith had several versions of what he called the first vision some that don't even include Jesus much less the Father..
Now you are getting way off the topic. Your insecurities are flaming.

Did he really change the truth that the Church has held about the nature of God for almost 2,000 years?
Now you are really off the planet. And you have no proof outside of your understanding of the Bible that this is what the Church believe for the first 150 years.

He changed nothing even through he did try to pervert that truth.. God is Spirit.. A spirit is a person without a body of flesh and bone, who is invisible.. That narrows down by a lot the definition of a spirit.. But none of that is Biblical.. Just because this doctrine is based on the Bible mean nothing, to you at least.

And this doesn't tell us one single thing about what spirit is. You are sounding very desperate.

Making up doctrine about what a Spirit is is a teaching I leave for the cults..

No one is making up doctrine. But you are failing to show any evidence for your beliefs. I have asked questions that you have ignored. You have provided scriptures that don't say what you claim they say. You have speculated about spirit and God and I have pointed out the problems with your speculation. But I have never attacked the Bible as you claim. I have never said the Bible was corrupt as you claim. And I have questioned your doctrine and beliefs but I have not revealed anything about mine. So you are wrong on all counts. Do you feel the heat?

I say no more tha I can find taught about in the Bible..
And I have asked questions about those beliefs that you have ignored. Why are you ignoring the questions that I have asked? Do you find them difficult to answer?

Mormonism as an example of this by saying that a Spirit is a being of flesh and bone as tangible as man's..

Now you are blatantly lying. I never said anything like this and I never will. You are getting really confused. Never said it never will.

That is the doctrine made up in the mind of a man not what I have taught..
No, that doctrine was made up in your mind, because no Mormon in his right mind would ever teach that.

End of part 1.

Russianwolfe

01-01-2011, 10:25 PM

Part 2.

I claim nothing about the nature of God, or the nature of spirit that is not taught in the Bible..

And I have already pointed out where you have gone beyond the Bible. So this claim is also false.

I understand completely why you would ask. It is quite clear from your responses that you haven't any idea of the nature of either..
Since I have not revealed any belief of mine this is an empty statement.

I have said there is no definition in the Bible that you will accept..
But you haven't given any defintion from the Bible, so how can you say this?

Just because your heart is so hardened against the revelation of God through Jesus given to us in his word doesn't mean that I reject that nor do I admit that it doesn't give a definition for what a spirit is.. It's just that you refuse the definition given.. This is mostly an ad hominen attack. Again, you are showing just how desparate you are. And if the Bible has anything to say about what spirit is, you haven't posted it.

I have no scripture to say that God is uncreated? Where have you been It's right there in Psalm 90:2. In short it says that God has been GOD from everlasting to everlasting..
And I have been telling you that this doesn't mean what you want it to mean because it was written by an ancient Hebrew and not an ancient Greek. The Hebrews didn't have your Greek understanding of time. So when the ancient Hebrews said from everlasting to everlasting, it did not mean from the Greek eternity to the Greek eternity.

Then Isaiah was told by God that there was never a God in existence other then Him..
It actuall says that there was no God before him (when was there a time before God existed?) and there would be no God after him (after God? When would there be a time after God?). So you have major problems using this scripture because it contradicts the other scripture you were trying to use that talks about everlasting. So your lack of understanding of ancient paradigms is killing your ability to understand the truth that the Bible is trying to tell you.

Not one before and not one after..
Yes, that is what is say. Before God and after God. How does that fit in with your other beliefs? Was there really a time before God? That is what the scripture implies. How do you fit that into your beliefs?

You of course can't understand that this means that He is God and has always been so..
Not when it says something that you aren't admitting.

You actually have to understand the meaning of everlasting and Go God was formed to see what that is saying..

And you have to consider the paradigm of the ancients before you can get at the truth of what these scriptures are saying.

Then mormonism calls God dumb because He doesn't even know about the formation of other Gods, when it's so clear through Joseph Smith that there are many..

Again with the false accusations. You are really showing just how insecure you are, with all these false accusations. No mormon calls God dumb. That is what you do.

But I have never used these p***ages, or to you they are meaningless..

I have pointed out the problem with the scriptures as you try to use them. You just ignore what I have said.

You are right about one thing.. I can't prove that what is claimed for the nature of God can be held to the nature of a man's spirit.. They are different as you have agreed..

I haven't agreed. I have pointed out the problems with your beliefs that you keep ignoring and here you are making false accusations.

One is created and one is self-existent.. But since Jesus used the word to mean a man that has become disembodied by death as well as to mean the nature of God, well I think that the physical nature can be held a similar.. You can disagree with that, but since either idea is opinion yours is as good as mine and mine is as good as yours..

Actually you are stating conclusions that you haven't provided any evidence for. There is nothing for me to disagree with because you have skipped the step where you provide the evidence for your conclusion.

As I said before you see nothing in the scripture that explains spirit.. I do..

What I have said is you have provided nothing to tell us what the Bible say spirit is.

The words I have used about the nature of a spirit are in the Bible.. A spirit is a person without flesh and bone.. A spirit (At least the Spirit that is God) is invisible.. Just because you disregard that teaching from doesn't mean that the Bible is in error or that Smith's teaching are correct.. Al it means is you dismiss the teachings of the Bible.. IHS jim

And I have pointed out the problems with what you are saying here. And you just ignore them.

We seem to have reached the end of our discussion. I have asked my questions and all you do is name calling and false accusations. You don't seem to have an answer to any of the problems that I have pointed out. This is not about the Bible but about what you claim the Bible says. There are problems in what you say but you ignore them. Hide your head in the sand, James. Its the only way you can continue to believe what you claim to believe.

Marvin

TheSword99

01-02-2011, 05:06 AM

I stated my question in the OP. So far, no one has provided any scriptures that clearly answer the question.

If Christ spoke true, that to know God is life eternal, then the Bible is severely lacking in one very important point on our salvation.

Marvin

I'm sorry you feel that the Bible lacks anything necessary to eternal salvation. God has revealed what he wants us to know and what we need to know. Paul said he had preached the entire Gospel. Jesus told the disciples to take THE Gospel to the entire world. What do you believe is missing from this Gospel that affects your salvation? OT saints didn't have the whole Bible as we do. Yet they have the promise of eternal life. They had faith. They believed in the One True God. They heard of the coming of the promised Messiah. They believed. They didn't demand proof.

Its interesting that you demand scriptural evidence from Christians, yet when your founder made the claim that God has a body as tangible as man's, you didn't demand biblical proof.

The Holy Bible teaches the Gospel. Many have become born-again by the reading of these Scriptures and with the aid of the Holy Spirit.

Marvin, a truly born-again Christian CAN know God. The apostles asked Jesus to show them the Father. Jesus said look to me. He was God who had come in the flesh. The Scriptures tells us of many of God's attributes. We cannot know God as a man because He is not and never was a man.

Jesus Christ said: " I AM THE WAY, THE LIFE AND THE TRUTH. To know Christ is to have eternal life. We don't separate God from Christ. If you know Jesus, you know heavenly Father. Jesus said: I and the Father are ONE.

Russianwolfe

01-02-2011, 06:26 AM

You don't have anything to add to this discussion either. When you go off topic this much it shows.

Marvin

I'm sorry you feel that the Bible lacks anything necessary to eternal salvation. God has revealed what he wants us to know and what we need to know. Paul said he had preached the entire Gospel. Jesus told the disciples to take THE Gospel to the entire world. What do you believe is missing from this Gospel that affects your salvation? OT saints didn't have the whole Bible as we do. Yet they have the promise of eternal life. They had faith. They believed in the One True God. They heard of the coming of the promised Messiah. They believed. They didn't demand proof.

Its interesting that you demand scriptural evidence from Christians, yet when your founder made the claim that God has a body as tangible as man's, you didn't demand biblical proof.

The Holy Bible teaches the Gospel. Many have become born-again by the reading of these Scriptures and with the aid of the Holy Spirit.

Marvin, a truly born-again Christian CAN know God. The apostles asked Jesus to show them the Father. Jesus said look to me. He was God who had come in the flesh. The Scriptures tells us of many of God's attributes. We cannot know God as a man because He is not and never was a man.

Jesus Christ said: " I AM THE WAY, THE LIFE AND THE TRUTH. To know Christ is to have eternal life. We don't separate God from Christ. If you know Jesus, you know heavenly Father. Jesus said: I and the Father are ONE.

TheSword99

01-02-2011, 06:30 AM

You don't have anything to add to this discussion either. When you go off topic this much it shows.

Marvin

Marvin, you don't want the truth. You ignore all my questions. God is a spirit and you want him to be an exalted man because that's what your founder said.

Your eyes and ears are closed.

Russianwolfe

01-02-2011, 11:27 AM

Billyray

01-02-2011, 11:47 AM

Whether or not God is a exalted man is not the subject of this discussion.

Marvin

It has everything to do with the discussion at hand Marvin. Earth to Marvin. If God the Father is an exalted man then he would have a body of flesh and bones which clearly is not "God is spirit".

TheSword99

01-02-2011, 12:15 PM

Again you demonstrate your lack of anything to add to this discussion. Whether or not God is a exalted man is not the subject of this discussion. When you ask a question and don't just preach to me, I am quite willing to answer you. But keep it on topic or start your own thread.

Marvin

Marvin, several of us Christians have told you what the Bible says about God. He is invisible.. We gave you the scriptural references but you don't want them. Jesus said a spirit does not have flesh and bone. So what do YOU think a spirit is??

This is the Mormonism category and that is what we are supposed to be discussing.

My point is Marvin, you want biblical proof, but refuse to admit that many of your church's teachings are not biblical.

Knox

01-02-2011, 05:46 PM

It has everything to do with the discussion at hand Marvin. Earth to Marvin. If God the Father is an exalted man then he would have a body of flesh and bones which clearly is not "God is spirit".
But the Bible refers to Jesus as a spirit, too. So obviously, it is wrong, fallacious, and eisegetical to conclude that a verse saying that God is spirit, means that God does not have a corporeal body. Jesus kind of went out of His way (ate, drank, let people touch Him, touched other people) to keep His apostles from reaching the invalid conclusion that you have reached.

Russianwolfe

01-02-2011, 06:04 PM

First, my question is about what spirit is. No one has given me any Biblical reference that says what spirit is.

Second, as I have pointed out, saying that God is invisible doesn't tell us what spirit is for 2 reasons:

1. It doesn't say whether God is invisible by choice or by nature. I have pointed out in Matt 5, Christ says that the pure in heart will see God, which leads me to conclude the God is invisible by choice and can reveal himself when he choses. No one has addressed this point. No one.

2. Since you believe that man and God are two completely different kinds of beings, what it says about God being invisible may not apply to man. I pointed out that when the apostles thought Christ was a spirit when he appeared to them after the resurrection, Christ did not say that a spirit was invisible, he said a spirit does not have flesh and bones. Which may indicate that a spirit can be seen.

And since I am asking for Biblical references as to what spirit is, your asking me is ridiculous. Provide the Biblical references that speak to what spirit is. Dont' try to turn this back on me.

Your two points are the only thing that anyone has been able to provide that says something about Spirit. Erik tried to say that spirit is immaterial, but he has not answered my question as to how he knew that was true. I have to ***ume at this point that it was an extra-Biblical doctrine that was made up to fill in the hole that the Bible leaves.

Since no one has provided any Biblical references that define what Spirit is, how can you say that what I believe is unbiblical? If the Bible doesn't say, how can you? I can't admit that what I believe is unbiblical when the Bible has nothing to say.

I am rejecting any and all Biblical verses that don't answer the question I have asked. If you find any more verses, let's discuss them.

Marvin

Marvin, several of us Christians have told you what the Bible says about God. He is invisible.. We gave you the scriptural references but you don't want them. Jesus said a spirit does not have flesh and bone. So what do YOU think a spirit is??

This is the Mormonism category and that is what we are supposed to be discussing.

My point is Marvin, you want biblical proof, but refuse to admit that many of your church's teachings are not biblical.

Billyray

01-02-2011, 06:38 PM

So obviously, it is wrong, fallacious, and eisegetical to conclude that a verse saying that God is spirit, means that God does not have a corporeal body.

It is not wrong at all. What other Christian denomination believes that God the Father has a body of flesh and bones?

Billyray

01-02-2011, 06:48 PM

But the Bible refers to Jesus as a spirit, too.
Please give us the verse that you are using as your proof text.

TheSword99

01-02-2011, 07:12 PM

But the Bible refers to Jesus as a spirit, too. So obviously, it is wrong, fallacious, and eisegetical to conclude that a verse saying that God is spirit, means that God does not have a corporeal body. Jesus kind of went out of His way (ate, drank, let people touch Him, touched other people) to keep His apostles from reaching the invalid conclusion that you have reached.

Could you please give us the bible chapter and verse instead of making general statements?

As for Jesus Christ, He came in the flesh in order to die for your sins. So yes, he had a body. The Bible NOWHERE says that God the Father has a body. It was never taught that God had a corporeal body until a farm boy made that claim. Then a whole bunch of folks left the Bible behind for this charismatic young man.

ErikErik

01-03-2011, 05:52 AM

First, my question is about what spirit is. No one has given me any Biblical reference that says what spirit is.

Second, as I have pointed out, saying that God is invisible doesn't tell us what spirit is for 2 reasons:

1. It doesn't say whether God is invisible by choice or by nature. I have pointed out in Matt 5, Christ says that the pure in heart will see God, which leads me to conclude the God is invisible by choice and can reveal himself when he choses. No one has addressed this point. No one.

2. Since you believe that man and God are two completely different kinds of beings, what it says about God being invisible may not apply to man. I pointed out that when the apostles thought Christ was a spirit when he appeared to them after the resurrection, Christ did not say that a spirit was invisible, he said a spirit does not have flesh and bones. Which may indicate that a spirit can be seen.

And since I am asking for Biblical references as to what spirit is, your asking me is ridiculous. Provide the Biblical references that speak to what spirit is. Dont' try to turn this back on me.

Your two points are the only thing that anyone has been able to provide that says something about Spirit. Erik tried to say that spirit is immaterial, but he has not answered my question as to how he knew that was true. I have to ***ume at this point that it was an extra-Biblical doctrine that was made up to fill in the hole that the Bible leaves.

Since no one has provided any Biblical references that define what Spirit is, how can you say that what I believe is unbiblical? If the Bible doesn't say, how can you? I can't admit that what I believe is unbiblical when the Bible has nothing to say.

I am rejecting any and all Biblical verses that don't answer the question I have asked. If you find any more verses, let's discuss them.

Marvin

Jesus said that a spirit does not have flesh and bones. So what do you think a spirit is?? If God is a spirit, then he does NOT have a body of flesh and bones. Therefore God IS NOT A MAN, EXALTED OR OTHERWISE!!! God is NOT what mormonism teaches!

The Bible says that Jesus is the image of the INVISIBLE God. God is INVISIBLE. God had no creator. He IS the Creator. He is without beginning or ending. The Bible says God dwells in unapproachable light. No man can see Him and live. This is what the word of God says!

Read the bible with no presumptions or through the eyes of Mormonism.. Just read it.

If God can choose to be invisible than he is nothing like us. He is clearly not human.

Speaking of Mormonism, since this is the category, what do you believe about God? Is he a man, who through obedience, became exalted and is now some god-being? Where does the bible say any of this?? Please give us the biblical reference. If you can't supply it than Mormonism is wrong isn't it.. The mormon version of God is nowhere taught in the Holy Scriptures!

The Christian God is invisible, dwells in light unapproachable, no man can see him and live. Isn't that EXACTLY what the Holy Bible says about God!?

Knox

01-03-2011, 06:01 AM

It is not wrong at all. What other Christian denomination believes that God the Father has a body of flesh and bones?

Your question is irrelevant for several reasons:

1. Just because most denominations reject the doctrine that the Father is bodily like His Son, has nothing to do with the logic I presented. (it is wrong, fallacious, and eisegetical to conclude that a verse saying that 'God is spirit,' means that God does not have a corporeal body since Jesus, who is God, is spirit, yet DOES have a corporeal body. You can't refute this logic because it is logical)

2. So what if currently, very few denominations believe that the Father is bodily like His Son---how can that prove that the doctrine is false? In the past, Christendom's majority has been horribly wrong on things--it even persecuted the minority who, it turns out, were the ones with the RIGHT doctrine. The Reformation is proof of that. Marty Luther was hardly in the majority when he first started out announcing that indulgence sales was an incorrect doctrine. So saying "Whatever the majority of Christendom currently believes has to be true because it's currently believed by a majority" is illogical reasoning, refuted by the very history of Christianity itself.

ErikErik

01-03-2011, 06:08 AM

Your question is irrelevant for several reasons:

1. Just because most denominations reject the doctrine that the Father is bodily like His Son, has nothing to do with the logic I presented. (it is wrong, fallacious, and eisegetical to conclude that a verse saying that 'God is spirit,' means that God does not have a corporeal body since Jesus, who is God, is spirit, yet DOES have a corporeal body. You can't refute this logic because it is logical)

2. So what if currently, very few denominations believe that the Father is bodily like His Son---how can that prove that the doctrine is false? In the past, Christendom's majority has been horribly wrong on things--it even persecuted the minority who, it turns out, were the ones with the RIGHT doctrine. The Reformation is proof of that. Marty Luther was hardly in the majority when he first started out announcing that indulgence sales was an incorrect doctrine. So saying "Whatever the majority of Christendom currently believes has to be true because it's currently believed by a majority" is illogical reasoning, refuted by the very history of Christianity itself.

Can you please show us where the bible says God has a body? Where does it say Jesus is a spirit? Chapter and verse please.

Billyray

01-03-2011, 07:43 AM

2. So what if currently, very few denominations believe that the Father is bodily like His Son-

List for us ALL of the denominations that believe that God the Father has a body of flesh and bones.

Knox

01-03-2011, 09:43 AM

Could you please give us the bible chapter and verse instead of making general statements?
Ah, it seems you are unaware of a Bible verse that calls Jesus a spirit. Cool. Now you have some Bible homework to do. Studying the Bible is good. You can learn stuff you didn't previously know that way.

As for Jesus Christ, He came in the flesh in order to die for your sins.
Glad to know that you believe that Jesus died for my sins. Some of your comrades claim that there are some people---like pro-LDS people, for example--whom Jesus did not die for. They claim that Jesus only died for the "elect" who God predestinated to save, and that the rest of humanity was a lost cause from the beginning.

So do you also believe that my sins were forgiven when Jesus died for my sins? Or do you believe that there is something that I need to do first, so that Jesus' death for my sins will also result in forgiveness for them?

So yes, he had a body. The Bible NOWHERE says that God the Father has a body.

How about where it says that Jesus is like His Father in every way?
Heb.1:3 CEV
Why do some Christians hate the idea of Jesus being very much like His Father? Did Jesus ever claim to be very different from His Father? The idea that Father and Son are very much alike, seems like a wonderful doctrine to me.

It was never taught that God had a corporeal body until a farm boy made that claim.
That looks like a statement that has no supporting documentation.
What if I were to make the counterargument that there were early Christians who did believe that God has a corporeal body, and what if I actually provided something in the way of a source to support my argument?

There is plentiful evidence that, as Dr. David Paulsen argues, “ordinary Christians for at least the first three centuries of the current era commonly (and perhaps generally) believed God to be corporeal.”
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:mSYtfll_vpQJ:alohal****n.wordpress. com/2009/12/08/an-incorporeal-god-%E2%80%93-%E2%80%9Cgod-has-no-body%E2%80%9D-pt-3-2/+God+has+a+body+Early+Christian+Fathers&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

Billyray

01-03-2011, 09:57 AM

How where it says that Jesus is like His Father in every way?
Heb.1:3 CEV

So this is your proof that God the Father has a body of flesh and bones?

Knox

01-03-2011, 01:06 PM

So this is your proof that God the Father has a body of flesh and bones?
LOL. Have not even started yet. You tried to use one verse about God being spirit to prove that God has no body. I showed that such a conclusion is wrong, fallacious, and eisegetical.

I can teach you lots of Bible verses that refer to God's body and humans seeing parts of it.

But I think a more fun way to proceed is to ask:

How different do you believe Jesus and His Father to be? How dissimilar, how alien to each other, do you believe they are? And why do you believe they are so unlike each other?

Jesus spent some time trying to teach His 1st-century disciples that He and His Father are so alike that it was uncanny. He said they were virtually the same. At some point during the centuries of darkness that Christendom was thrust into, this doctrine got thrown into the garbage, and replaced by the paganistic idea that God can never be like His Son is.

If you insist on challenging that, you can learn some history here:

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:Aahoz6M-pNAJ:www.examiner.com/lds-church-in-national/does-the-god-of-the-bible-have-a-body-of-flesh-and-bone+God+has+a+body+Early+Christian+Fathers&cd=9&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

But I think it would be more productive if you would just answer the questions I asked above.

James Banta

01-03-2011, 01:43 PM

Unlike Joseph Smith I am unwilling to invent something that God didn't deem needful to our salvation.. If it were the make up what a spirit is would be in the Bible.. But we are told that God is Spirit, That God in invisible, That he is not subject to time, that He is always present with all believers. That He is triune, That He is all powerful. That ever the waters of the sea obey Him..

There is a lot about God that mormonism ignores Knowing what the make up of a spirit is is not important. Jesus told us that a spirit is not a physical person. The Holy Spirit through the Apostle Paul said that God is invisible, not that He was only invisible sometimes.. Jesus told us that God is Spirit..

You can add your personal denials, or your personal additions.. I will stick with what the Bible teaches.. You can believe in the Joseph Smith invented God all you want.. You can stomp around saying that you can't believe in the God of the Bible because God didn't see fit to tell you what you don't need to know.. Your rejection of what we have preserved of God's nature you can call a lie..

I have shown you by the scriptures that God is the only such being as He that exists. I have shown you that He has been God from everlasting, and will continue as God to everlasting.. These things you can also deny because a man Joseph Smith says that this is not the right God.. That he, nor you can understand the God of the Bible so therefore He can't exist (Pre 1990 Temple Ceremony)..

You can't believe that God is Spirit though that is God's word on His nature.. You therefore deny that another revealed attribute that He is invisible.. Mormonism seems to deny every Biblical attribute given about His nature.. You have let go of the iron rod and are stumbling about in the dark wilderness without hope.. IHS jim

Billyray

01-03-2011, 04:47 PM

I can teach you lots of Bible verses that refer to God's body and humans seeing parts of it.

Go ahead teacher and give us some more verses.

Knox

01-03-2011, 04:49 PM

Erik said:

Jesus said that a spirit does not have flesh and bones. So what do you think a spirit is?? If God is a spirit, then he does NOT have a body of flesh and bones. Therefore God IS NOT A MAN, EXALTED OR OTHERWISE!!!

Using that logic, Jesus is not God. Here is the "logic" for all to see:

1. "A spirit does not have flesh and bones."
2. "If God is a spirit, then God does not have flesh and bones."
3. "Jesus DOES have flesh and bones."
4. "Therefore, Jesus is not God."

Why do you guys deny the deity of Jesus? That doesn't sound very Christian, or very Biblical.

Billyray

01-03-2011, 04:50 PM

Using that logic, Jesus is not God.

But we know that Jesus is God because the Bible tells us he is God.

Knox

01-03-2011, 09:26 PM

But we know that Jesus is God because the Bible tells us he is God.

Right. So there must be a flaw in your "It's impossible for God to have a body" argument. That is the only conclusion I can see, given the other premises.

Billyray

01-03-2011, 09:29 PM

Right. So there must be a flaw in your "It's impossible for God to have a body" argument. That is the only conclusion I can see, given the other premises.

What makes you think that God the Father has a body of flesh and bones? Because "Jesus is like His Father in every way?"

Russianwolfe

01-04-2011, 12:08 AM

Unlike Joseph Smith I am unwilling to invent something that God didn't deem needful to our salvation..

Why do you keep going back to Joseph Smith? We haven't got to the place where that part of the discussion can begin. Stick to the topic and show me what the Bible says spirit is. Quit trying to hijack the discussion.

If it were the make up what a spirit is would be in the Bible.. But we are told that God is Spirit, That God in invisible, That he is not subject to time,

You have no Bible verse that says that God is not subject to time. Therefore, you are making this up. And you just said that you don't make up doctrine. Seems rather hypocritical, doesn't it?

that He is always present with all believers. That He is triune,

There is no verse that says that God is triune. You have to go through logic to show this and you haven't done that.

That He is all powerful. That ever the waters of the sea obey Him..

There is a lot about God that mormonism ignores

We ignore nothing. We believe differently than you but we ignore nothing.

Knowing what the make up of a spirit is is not important.

It is when you try to say God is a spirit. That doesn't mean anything unless you know what a spirit is.

Jesus told us that a spirit is not a physical person. The Holy Spirit through the Apostle Paul said that God is invisible, not that He was only invisible sometimes..

But since Jesus promised the pure in heart that they would see God, you haven't resolved the question of whether or not this is by nature or by choice.

Jesus told us that God is Spirit..

You can add your personal denials, or your personal additions..

I haven't added anything. You haven't provided me with any Bible verse that tells us what spirit is. I have nothing to deny or add to because you have provided nothing.

I will stick with what the Bible teaches..

Which is nothing.

You can believe in the Joseph Smith invented God all you want..

Again, with the criticism of Joseph Smith. Get over it and stick to the topic. When I quote the D&C you will know that you can discuss Joseph Smith. Until then, show me what the Bible says spirit is.

You can stomp around saying that you can't believe in the God of the Bible

Never said that. I don't believe you but never said I don't believe in the God of the Bible.

because God didn't see fit to tell you what you don't need to know..

How can you say we don't need to know something when it concerns God's nature? Didn't Christ say that eternal life was to know the true God and Jesus Christ whome he sent? If you don't know what spirit is, then how can you say you know God? Christ is easy. His life is in the NT. But God the Father? How do you know that Christ is like the Father when you don't know what the Father is like?

Your rejection of what we have preserved of God's nature you can call a lie..

How can I reject what you have provided? And have I never call anything in the Bible a lie. Here you go again with the false accusation. Isn't one of the 10 commandments about bearing false witness? Isn't this the same thing?

I have shown you by the scriptures that God is the only such being as He that exists.

No, you haven't. You have to ignore several verses in the Bible to do that. I have tried to point you to them, but you ignore them and continue to try to tell me that you have shown me this. Doesn't work until you address the scriptures that I have asked you about.

I have shown you that He has been God from everlasting

I have pointed out that what you understand as everlasting is not what an ancient Hebrew would understand. But you ignore that.

, and will continue as God to everlasting..

Same as above. You keep trying to the the Bible to say things that it doesn't say.

These things you can also deny because a man Joseph Smith says that this is not the right God..

Again with Joseph Smith. Stick to the topic.

That he, nor you can understand the God of the Bible so therefore He can't exist (Pre 1990 Temple Ceremony)..

I understand the God of the Bible. It's you I am having a hard time understanding and the doctrine you make up.

You can't believe that God is Spirit though that is God's word on His nature..

I haven't said anything about what I believe about God. Mainly because you have not provided me with any Biblical verse on what spirit is. Until you do that, then this discussion is stuck.

You therefore deny that another revealed attribute that He is invisible..

I have never denied that God is invisible. I have questioned you about whether that invisible attribute is by choice or by nature. You keep ignoring that.

Mormonism seems to deny every Biblical attribute given about His nature..

Stick to the topic. We don't ignore nor deny anything.

You have let go of the iron rod and are stumbling about in the dark wilderness without hope.. IHS jim

Again with the BoM allusions. Stick to the topic. I have the iron rod firmly in my grasp. And I have shown this to be true by pointing to scripture to back up my points. Have I quoted more scripture than you? Go figure

It's you who is stumbling because you can't asnwer the questions I have about what spirit is. You keep going off topic and sticking a red herring in. Stick to the topic.

Marvin

Knox

01-04-2011, 08:31 AM

What makes you think that God the Father has a body of flesh and bones?
What makes you think it's impossible that Jesus and His Father could be alike? I already showed you the flaw in your logic--the flaw that forces you to believe that Jesus is not God. Why would you stick to such logic instead of replace it with logic that allows Jesus to be deity?

Because "Jesus is like His Father in every way?"
You don't believe what the scripture says? What part of "in every way" do you think is in error? Do you know of any species of life where it's impossible for the offspring to grow up to be like the parent? Do you feel that God is not omnipotent enough to be like His Son?

James Banta

01-04-2011, 08:40 PM

Part 2.

And I have already pointed out where you have gone beyond the Bible. So this claim is also false.

Since I have not revealed any belief of mine this is an empty statement.

But you haven't given any defintion from the Bible, so how can you say this?
This is mostly an ad hominen attack. Again, you are showing just how desparate you are. And if the Bible has anything to say about what spirit is, you haven't posted it.

And I have been telling you that this doesn't mean what you want it to mean because it was written by an ancient Hebrew and not an ancient Greek. The Hebrews didn't have your Greek understanding of time. So when the ancient Hebrews said from everlasting to everlasting, it did not mean from the Greek eternity to the Greek eternity.

It actuall says that there was no God before him (when was there a time before God existed?) and there would be no God after him (after God? When would there be a time after God?). So you have major problems using this scripture because it contradicts the other scripture you were trying to use that talks about everlasting. So your lack of understanding of ancient paradigms is killing your ability to understand the truth that the Bible is trying to tell you.

Yes, that is what is say. Before God and after God. How does that fit in with your other beliefs? Was there really a time before God? That is what the scripture implies. How do you fit that into your beliefs?

Not when it says something that you aren't admitting.

And you have to consider the paradigm of the ancients before you can get at the truth of what these scriptures are saying.

Again with the false accusations. You are really showing just how insecure you are, with all these false accusations. No mormon calls God dumb. That is what you do.

I have pointed out the problem with the scriptures as you try to use them. You just ignore what I have said.

I haven't agreed. I have pointed out the problems with your beliefs that you keep ignoring and here you are making false accusations.

Actually you are stating conclusions that you haven't provided any evidence for. There is nothing for me to disagree with because you have skipped the step where you provide the evidence for your conclusion.

What I have said is you have provided nothing to tell us what the Bible say spirit is.

And I have pointed out the problems with what you are saying here. And you just ignore them.

We seem to have reached the end of our discussion. I have asked my questions and all you do is name calling and false accusations. You don't seem to have an answer to any of the problems that I have pointed out. This is not about the Bible but about what you claim the Bible says. There are problems in what you say but you ignore them. Hide your head in the sand, James. Its the only way you can continue to believe what you claim to believe.

Marvin

Mormonism holds that God Body is a spiritual body.. A body different than the natural bodies we have on earth.. It is a unification of a flesh and bone with a glorified spirit.. More than just resurrected but glorified.. That is what "lying" jim was talking about and you know that IS LDS doctrine.. If that is a lie come out and say so.. Tell me how wrong that is.. You can't because that IS the kind of being you believe the Father to be..

I have read all though the LDS.org site on this subject and not once is a spirit defined by any definition you would accept.. See to your own house, a house of you claim is a restoration of truth, before you claim we don't know God because a spirit isn't defined to your standards.. It is not defined in mormonism any further.. So that would mean that God couldn't have a spirit or create spirit children because your demands as to what spirit is are not met.. What I have told you a spirit is is enough for person of faith.. I see none in you.. IHS jim

James Banta

01-04-2011, 08:55 PM

Right. So there must be a flaw in your "It's impossible for God to have a body" argument. That is the only conclusion I can see, given the other premises.

Is it wrong to called the Holy Ghost (Who is spirit even in LDS teaching (D&C 139:22) God? No of course Not.. That is what this verse does, it calls a Person of the Trinity God.. That is quite correct!! It is impossible for a being described as Spirit to have a physical body.. It makes the scripture a lie.. Nothing that mormonism doesn't say about it again and again.. IHS jim

Billyray

01-04-2011, 09:15 PM

I already showed you the flaw in your logic--the flaw that forces you to believe that Jesus is not God.

The Bible teaches that Jesus is God so it would be impossible for me to think otherwise.

You don't believe what the scripture says?

Of course I believe what scripture says. That is such a silly statement. But you do not believe what the Bible teaches in many respects.

What part of "in every way" do you think is in error?

Was God the Father born of Mary? Was God the Father crucified in Jerusalem. Your logic is the one that is flawed.

Russianwolfe

01-05-2011, 12:12 AM

Mormonism holds that God Body is a spiritual body..

No, we believe that God has a glorified physical resurrected body of flesh and bones.

A body different than the natural bodies we have on earth..

Very different.

It is a unification of a flesh and bone with a glorified spirit..

You got that backwards. It is a glorified body of flesh and bones. Resurrected and glorified.

More than just resurrected but glorified..

How can it be more than just resurrected? Yes, glorified with the celestial glory.

That is what "lying" jim was talking about and you know that IS LDS doctrine..

If you state the doctrine incorrectly then no it is not LDS doctrine. And I have the right and even the duty to point that out.

If that is a lie come out and say so..

Is it a lie if you are mistaken? But you claim to have been a member before, and I don't understand how you can so inaccurately misstate the doctrine the way you do.

Tell me how wrong that is.. You can't because that IS the kind of being you believe the Father to be..

But as I have pointed out before, that is not the topic of this discussion. You keep trying to derail this thread and I have to keep pointing this out and try to get you to get back on the topic.

I have read all though the LDS.org site on this subject and not once is a spirit defined by any definition you would accept..

But I am not asking for the LDS.org defintion. I am asking you to provide the Biblical definition of what spirit is. Why do you keep going off topic?

See to your own house, a house of you claim is a restoration of truth, before you claim we don't know God because a spirit isn't defined to your standards..

Actually, it isn't defined by your standards. You believe that the Bible is the standard by which you define your doctrine. You claim that God is spirit, but you cannot provide a Biblical definition of what spirit is. So you cannot claim to know what God is when the Bible doesn't tell you. Thus you can't tell me my belief is wrong because you have nothing at all to compare it to.

It is not defined in mormonism any further..

Then you didn't look as much or well as you should. There is an exact definition of what spirit is.

So that would mean that God couldn't have a spirit or create spirit children because your demands as to what spirit is are not met..

You can't provide a Biblical definition but that doesn't mean I can't.

What I have told you a spirit is is enough for person of faith.. I see none in you.. IHS jim

You have told me nothing. You can't provide a Biblical definition. A person of faith, which I am sure you claim to be, is left with nothing when he searches the Bible for a definition.

You are squirming and dancing as fast as you can, James, but it is clear to me that you have nothing to support your beliefs about what spirit is. Erik tried to say that spirit is immaterial but he has no scripture to back that belief with and thus has an unBiblical belief. You would probably excuse him, but if a Mormon has a belief that you consider unBiblical you will condemn him. This is a double standard and I dont' think God has a double standard. In fact, I am sure of it. God is not duplicitous.

Marvin

ErikErik

01-05-2011, 05:08 AM

Ah, it seems you are unaware of a Bible verse that calls Jesus a spirit. Cool. Now you have some Bible homework to do. Studying the Bible is good. You can learn stuff you didn't previously know that way.

Glad to know that you believe that Jesus died for my sins. Some of your comrades claim that there are some people---like pro-LDS people, for example--whom Jesus did not die for. They claim that Jesus only died for the "elect" who God predestinated to save, and that the rest of humanity was a lost cause from the beginning.

So do you also believe that my sins were forgiven when Jesus died for my sins? Or do you believe that there is something that I need to do first, so that Jesus' death for my sins will also result in forgiveness for them?

How about where it says that Jesus is like His Father in every way?
Heb.1:3 CEV
Why do some Christians hate the idea of Jesus being very much like His Father? Did Jesus ever claim to be very different from His Father? The idea that Father and Son are very much alike, seems like a wonderful doctrine to me.

Heb. 1:3 does not says Jesus IS a spirit. He is the image of the invisible God.because he took on flesh in order to be able to die so that the sins of humanity could be forgiven.

That looks like a statement that has no supporting documentation.
What if I were to make the counterargument that there were early Christians who did believe that God has a corporeal body, and what if I actually provided something in the way of a source to support my argument?

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:mSYtfll_vpQJ:alohal****n.wordpress. com/2009/12/08/an-incorporeal-god-%E2%80%93-%E2%80%9Cgod-has-no-body%E2%80%9D-pt-3-2/+God+has+a+body+Early+Christian+Fathers&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

Please give the chapter and verses that SAYJesus is a spirit. Christ is the express image of God. This is what Hebrews says. So, yes, Jesus Christ is God the Son. NOT a separate god. I think you are confused about the word: "image."

Heb. 1:3 does not says Jesus IS a spirit. He is the image of the invisible God. In Christ we have a tangible, visible representation of the invisible God. We see God in him. Jesus Christ took on flesh in order to be able to die so that the sins of humanity could be forgiven.

Who or what Was Christ before the incarnation? Before he took on flesh?

Yes, Christ died for your sins and mine. This does NOT mean you are automatically a child of God. One MUST be spiritually born again. Mormonism does not teach this but the Bible Does. Christ clearly taught this. Mormonism believes that all men will go to some level of heaven. This is unscriptual. The Bible does not teach universal salvation. It teaches that hell is a real place and those who are not born again will go there along with satan and the son of perdition.

Those who teach that Christ only died for the elect, subscribe to Calvinism. This is a false doctrine. God is NOT a respector of persons. Nor does God want any to perish, but all to come to saving faith. Jesus said in Mat. 23: ..."how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!"

This shows that we choose whom we will serve and whether or not to follow Jesus Christ and trust in him alone for our salvation.

I have not read of any Christians on here who deny that God the Father and God the Son are equal. This is what Trintarians believe. The ones on here who say that Jesus is a different god from Heavenly Father are the mormons.

ErikErik

01-05-2011, 05:37 AM

What if I were to make the counterargument that there were early Christians who did believe that God has a corporeal body, and what if I actually provided something in the way of a source to support my argument?

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:mSYtfll_vpQJ:alohal****n.wordpress. com/2009/12/08/an-incorporeal-god-%E2%80%93-%E2%80%9Cgod-has-no-body%E2%80%9D-pt-3-2/+God+has+a+body+Early+Christian+Fathers&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

I read the link you gave. It is written by a mormon who merely gives his opinions. He tries to make the claim that most of the early church fathers were wrong. That the apostles most likely taught that God has a body. It goes on to admit that we see evidence for the Trinity in the writings of the Church Fathers. But it offers absolutely zero, zilch evidence for God having a corporeal body. It gives no scripture references. It quotes from a man, Kim Paffenroth, who writes horror fiction and a book called: Gospel of the living dead.

Knox, surely you can do better than quoting from a member of your own church.

James Banta

01-05-2011, 09:51 AM

I talk about Smith because he is the authority on what mormonism is.. He invented it! This is a channel about mormonism and what a spirit is can still be discussed by what momronism teaches.. Mormonism doesn't define what a Spirit is either so this whole subject ie outside the rules of this forum.. Stay withing mormonism going outside to bring in atheist subjects is against the rules..

If you are willing to accept the meaning as we have given from the Bible fine.. Move it along.. But if you clamp onto atheistic subjects and want to discuss them then take it to that forum.. I have told you that the Bible teaches that God is Spirit. That a spirit is not a being of flesh and bone. that a spirit is invisible.. That is what the Bible teaches in the subject, I believe it you reject it.. FINE.. I have given you the word of God on the subject.. You are free to reject His message.. I am free to accept it.. IHS jim

James Banta

01-05-2011, 09:57 AM

I read the link you gave. It is written by a mormon who merely gives his opinions. He tries to make the claim that most of the early church fathers were wrong. That the apostles most likely taught that God has a body. It goes on to admit that we see evidence for the Trinity in the writings of the Church Fathers. But it offers absolutely zero, zilch evidence for God having a corporeal body. It gives no scripture references. It quotes from a man, Kim Paffenroth, who writes horror fiction and a book called: Gospel of the living dead.

Knox, surely you can do better than quoting from a member of your own church.

Why is it they can't show us by the authority of the Bible that their strange unique doctrines are God's truth? Why because they is no such reference.. Only in the minds of men are such blasphemies formed.. God is Spirit.. That is in stone.. He doesn't change.. That is in stone.. Smith was a proven liar.. That is in stone.. Yet these, his supporters are willing to make up references to try to prove their point that God has a body of flesh and bone and is NOT invisible.. It's time they sat the words of men aside and look for such matters to the word of God.. IHS jim

ErikErik

01-05-2011, 12:25 PM

Why is it they can't show us by the authority of the Bible that their strange unique doctrines are God's truth? Why because they is no such reference.. Only in the minds of men are such blasphemies formed.. God is Spirit.. That is in stone.. He doesn't change.. That is in stone.. Smith was a proven liar.. That is in stone.. Yet these, his supporters are willing to make up references to try to prove their point that God has a body of flesh and bone and is NOT invisible.. It's time they sat the words of men aside and look for such matters to the word of God.. IHS jim

Mormonism is based on the doctrines of men. The beliefs of its founder and his predecessors.

Marvin wants biblical proof for a belief that Christians have had from the beginning, but he doesn't ask for proof as to whether God has a body as tangible as man's or not! If the Bible doesn't spell out what a spirit is, then how can the lds believe God has a body when the bible nowhere says that? Seems Marvin ONLY wants proof for our Christian doctrines but not for lds beliefs!

Russianwolfe

01-05-2011, 08:50 PM

Mormonism is based on the doctrines of men. The beliefs of its founder and his predecessors.

I don't think you meant predecessors. There is only Christ before Joseph Smith.

Marvin wants biblical proof for a belief that Christians have had from the beginning,

But you claim your doctrine is Bibically based. You said that spirit was immaterial. All I ask is that you show me where you got this doctrine from. What verse in the Bible says that spirit is immaterial.

but he doesn't ask for proof as to whether God has a body as tangible as man's or not!

Mainly because this thread is about what spirit is. If you want to discuss this point, start your own thread. Don't complain when I refuse to derail or allow you to derail this thread.

If the Bible doesn't spell out what a spirit is, then how can the lds believe God has a body when the bible nowhere says that?

Maybe because God has revealed through modern revelation that God has a body. But to say more would be to derail the thread.

Seems Marvin ONLY wants proof for our Christian doctrines but not for lds beliefs!

I am only asking that you show me the Biblical basis for what you claim about your beliefs. You and your friends continually tell the LDS that God is spirit. So I ask you what is spirit. But you can't show me that your beliefs are based on the Bible. That is no different than what you just claimed about our beliefs that God has a body. If you believe that God is spirit but cannot show me what spirit is, how can you claim that what I believe about God is wrong, when you have not basis from your beliefs on which to disagree?

Marvin.

Russianwolfe

01-05-2011, 08:59 PM

Why is it they can't show us by the authority of the Bible that their strange unique doctrines are God's truth?

And you can't show me by the authority of the Bible what spirit is!! Is that strange or what?

Why because they is no such reference..

Only for those who's minds are closed to the ways of God.

Only in the minds of men are such blasphemies formed.. God is Spirit..

Which means nothing because you have no Biblical definition of what spirit is?

That is in stone.. He doesn't change..

But he told Abraham that circumcision was an eternal law. And then Peter comes along and says it isn't. God doesn't change? Why did Peter change the eternal law of circumcision?

That is in stone.. Smith was a proven liar.. That is in stone.. Yet these, his supporters are willing to make up references to try to prove their point that God has a body of flesh and bone and is NOT invisible..

And while you claim God is invisible, the scriptures say that Jesus is in the express image of God (how can God have an image and yet be invisible), but you can't tell me if that is invisible by nature (in which case no one will ever see him) or by choice (in which case God can reveal himself to men).

It's time they sat the words of men aside and look for such matters to the word of God.. IHS jim

There is nothing to your doctrine if you claim they are biblically based but when asked to show the basis of your doctrine, you can't.

Marvin

Russianwolfe

01-05-2011, 09:07 PM

I talk about Smith because he is the authority on what mormonism is..

But he is not the subject of this thread. You keep sticking this red herring into the discussion. Let's stick to the subject.

He invented it! This is a channel about mormonism and what a spirit is can still be discussed by what momronism teaches.. Mormonism doesn't define what a Spirit is either so this whole subject ie outside the rules of this forum.. Stay withing mormonism going outside to bring in atheist subjects is against the rules..

But Mormonism does define what spirit is and very exactly. And when the time is right I will show you. But I thought you would know what the definition is. After all you used to be a member, didn't you?

If you are willing to accept the meaning as we have given from the Bible fine..

But the bible doesn't tell us.

Move it along.. But if you clamp onto atheistic subjects and want to discuss them then take it to that forum..

How is wanting to know what the bible say spirit is to be an atheistic subject?

I have told you that the Bible teaches that God is Spirit. That a spirit is not a being of flesh and bone. that a spirit is invisible..

Which means nothing because the Bible says nothing about what spirit is. And you are wrong. The scripture that you used says God is invisible. You haven't established that the spirit of man is like God so you can't say that spirit is invisible. Only God.

That is what the Bible teaches in the subject, I believe it you reject it..

I don't reject and I haven't said that I do. What I do reject is what you are attempting to tell me is what the Bible teaches. You do not use logic, you do not use scripture. you make logical jumps without any basis. What you believe is a figment of your imagination but is in no way Biblically based. You have proven this by the lack of scriptures in your reasoning.

FINE.. I have given you the word of God on the subject.. You are free to reject His message.. I am free to accept it.. IHS jim

You haven't been able to produce one verse of scripture that teaches us anything about what spirit is. There is nothing for me to reject. In fact, there is nothing. You don't know what spirit is, so you can't say it is immaterial matter because the Bible doesn't say what it is.

Marvin

Knox

01-05-2011, 09:32 PM

Please give the chapter and verses that SAYJesus is a spirit.

1 Corinthians 15:45
And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

Billyray

01-05-2011, 09:33 PM

1 Corinthians 15:45
And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

Again no mention of God the Father. Maybe if you added the Adam God theory into the mix you might have a winner.

James Banta

01-06-2011, 11:33 AM

Mormonism is based on the doctrines of men. The beliefs of its founder and his predecessors.

Marvin wants biblical proof for a belief that Christians have had from the beginning, but he doesn't ask for proof as to whether God has a body as tangible as man's or not! If the Bible doesn't spell out what a spirit is, then how can the lds believe God has a body when the bible nowhere says that? Seems Marvin ONLY wants proof for our Christian doctrines but not for lds beliefs!

And that we gave him.. It is clear that a spirit of a person is an en***y that has no physical form. It is invisible.. Sure there is a question whether a spirit can see another spirit.. That is unanswered as I see it.. But that just goes to again show how different the spiritual is from the natural..

You are a Christian, therefore you have no problem with the matter of the spirit being a en***y that is without natural form.. It makes sense to your regenerate mind.. To Marvin it is beyond his limited natural ability to understand.. He is unwilling to se what the Bible teaches and accept it by faith.. He would much rather believe the rants of man's memory from a time at least 14 years removed from the actual events. It is clear from the many versions of Smith "First Vision" that the number of Person that appeared to me is dubious. He age at the time is also in doubt, was he 14, 15, 16, or 17 year old boy? See http://www.lds-mormon.com/fv.shtml...

Seems to me that is God appeared to me the event would be locked into my mind for all time.. I guess that he like all LDS people has selective doubts. They are willing to accept conflicting and wild statements if they can develop the right emotional responses in their mind.. What the Bible tells us of spirit is enough for me.. I believe that you to find what God has preserved for us on this matter is sufficient.. IHS jim

James Banta

01-06-2011, 11:55 AM

[Russianwolfe;75465]And you can't show me by the authority of the Bible what spirit is!! Is that strange or what?

I believe i have again and again.. You have rejected the sufficiency of scripture, I accept it.. I have also shown that there is not one shred of definition in any of the LDS books that when coupled with what the Bible teaches that tell us what a spirit is.. Unless you can provide it will we have to agree that knowing the makeup of such en***ies is not part of the saving Gospel of Jesus Christ..

Which means nothing because you have no Biblical definition of what spirit is?

And as I have shown you you have none is mormonism that when taken with the same demand for proof you put on the Bible all fail to give us a real definition of what Spirit is.. What the Bible says is sufficient for a regenerate spirit filled mind.. You apparently don't have such a mind..

But he told Abraham that circumcision was an eternal law. And then Peter comes along and says it isn't. God doesn't change? Why did Peter change the eternal law of circumcision?

Again you deny the meaning of of what the Bible teaches.. The law of circumcision does continue. I am surprised you don't know that. The Old Testament is all about the physical demands of the law, the New Testament is about the Spiritual.. We are told to have a circumcision of the heart (Romans 2:28-29).. Again you turn to the atheist to make attacks against the Word, and the Way.. I guess It's time to ask Jill to stop this because by your insistence I shouldn't bring mormonism into the discussion.. This line of argument is better suited to the atheism channel..

Jill this is not about mormonism but has turned to an attack of the Bible and the existence of God..

IHS jim

ErikErik

01-06-2011, 12:28 PM

1 Corinthians 15:45
And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

Knox, do you know what the phrase, "quickening spirit" means? It does NOT mean that Jesus IS A SPIRIT, but that he imparts life. Read1 Corinthians 15:21, "for as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them, even so the Son quickeneth whom he will."

Any other verses you believe says that Jesus is a spirit? I don't know of any.

James Banta

01-06-2011, 12:41 PM

Knox, do you know what the phrase, "quickening spirit" means? It does NOT mean that Jesus IS A SPIRIT, but that he imparts life. Read1 Corinthians 15:21, "for as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them, even so the Son quickeneth whom he will."

Any other verses you believe says that Jesus is a spirit? I don't know of any.

Since Jesus is both Spirit and Physical he can deal with the Church or the world in the appropriate manner as called for by the circumstances.. As he appeared to Moses in the burning bust He appeared as Spirit.. As He allowed the Elders of the People to see His back He was in His resurrected body.. But again mormonism will trip over the FACT that Jesus is the eternal God and time is his creation not His master.. IHS jim

Knox

01-06-2011, 12:49 PM

Knox, do you know what the phrase, "quickening spirit" means? It does NOT mean that Jesus IS A SPIRIT,
So when the Bible says Jesus is a spirit, it means He is NOT one, and where the Bible says that God is spirit, it means that He IS one.....where are you getting this from? Next you will be saying that where the Bible says that people saw God, it means they didn't, and that where it says that a remission of sins comes through baptism it means that it doesn't.

And where it says "up" it means "down," etc.....??

James Banta

01-06-2011, 07:07 PM

So when the Bible says Jesus is a spirit, it means He is NOT one, and where the Bible says that God is spirit, it means that He IS one.....where are you getting this from? Next you will be saying that where the Bible says that people saw God, it means they didn't, and that where it says that a remission of sins comes through baptism it means that it doesn't.

And where it says "up" it means "down," etc.....??

The Bible never teaches that anyone has ever seen the Father.. NO WHERE.. In fact John says that it's Jesus that people saw then ever it was recorded that they saw God.. EVERY TIME WITHOUT EXCEPTION!

Jesus is a quicken Spirit.. The Bible teaches us that it is the spirit that quickens. What is it that it quickens? The BODY! Jesus is a quicken Spirit.. He has a BODY! That body is the image is the exact image of the invisible God..

One rules of Christian Biblical interpretation is that all the Bible MUST be true.. By saying that the Father has a physical body is to through away some very clear p***ages. You have no authority to do so.. So make it all true or admit that you can't and put personal revelation above the written word of God.. After all that is what you do even with your own books.. after all look at what Joseph Smith said about the nature of God in the BofM.. Go read 2 Nephi 31:21.. When I say that say exact same thing you howl and say I am wrong.. But the trinity is a common teaching in the early days of mormonism well after the time Smith said he received the first vision.. IHS jim

ErikErik

01-07-2011, 07:23 AM

Knox

01-07-2011, 02:16 PM

Knox, I have asked you more than once to give me the verses that say Jesus is spirit. You haven't done it. You merely gave one single verse about Jesus being made a quickening spirit
What part of "Jesus was made a spirit" doesn't qualify as an answer for you?

Hello?

Jesus
was
made a spirit

and I told you the meaning of that phrase.
You told me what you feel it means. That doesn't magically turn it into NOT being a verse that refers to Jesus as a spirit. Thanks for playing.

BTW, GOD SAID no man can see Him and live. Did God Lie???
BTW, Jesus said that the pure in heart will see God. Did Jesus lie? ?? ?? ??

ErikErik

01-07-2011, 03:15 PM

What part of "Jesus was made a spirit" doesn't qualify as an answer for you?

Hello?

Jesus
was
made a spirit

You told me what you feel it means. That doesn't magically turn it into NOT being a verse that refers to Jesus as a spirit. Thanks for playing.

BTW, Jesus said that the pure in heart will see God. Did Jesus lie? ?? ?? ??

Jesus was not MADE a spirit. (You changed the verse.) He is from everlasting to everlasting..the Alpha and Omega..without beginning or ending. He was with God in the beginning and was God. He was never a man like us.

Jesus' resurrected body is called ‘spiritual’ and ‘life-giving spirit’ because its source is the spiritual realm, not because its substance is immaterial. Christ’s supernatural resurrection body is ‘from heaven,’ as Adam’s natural body was ‘of the earth.

This won't make sense to you because the lds jesus is merely an exalted man, a god among zillions, your brother and the brother of the devil. You do not even know who Christ was before His incarnation. The biblical Christ created satan.

Please explain to me how a father can also be the brother of his son?

As for the pure in heart seeing God, yes, those who have been justified by faith in Jesus Christ and cleaned in His precious blood will be ushered into His holy presence the moment they p*** from this earthly life. It is our blessed hope to bow in His holy presence, cleaned, washed and robed in His pure righteousness.

Now do you think you can answer my questions?

GOD SAID no man can see Him and live. Did God Lie???

Jesus said no man has seen the Father at anytime except the Son. Did Christ lie???

James Banta

01-09-2011, 06:44 PM

Jesus was not MADE a spirit. (You changed the verse.) He is from everlasting to everlasting..the Alpha and Omega..without beginning or ending. He was with God in the beginning and was God. He was never a man like us.

Jesus' resurrected body is called ‘spiritual’ and ‘life-giving spirit’ because its source is the spiritual realm, not because its substance is immaterial. Christ’s supernatural resurrection body is ‘from heaven,’ as Adam’s natural body was ‘of the earth.

This won't make sense to you because the lds jesus is merely an exalted man, a god among zillions, your brother and the brother of the devil. You do not even know who Christ was before His incarnation. The biblical Christ created satan.

Please explain to me how a father can also be the brother of his son?

As for the pure in heart seeing God, yes, those who have been justified by faith in Jesus Christ and cleaned in His precious blood will be ushered into His holy presence the moment they p*** from this earthly life. It is our blessed hope to bow in His holy presence, cleaned, washed and robed in His pure righteousness.

Now do you think you can answer my questions?

GOD SAID no man can see Him and live. Did God Lie???

Jesus said no man has seen the Father at anytime except the Son. Did Christ lie???

So right brother.. Not one of us.. Not even a Great man of God like Paul in worthy of receiving anything from God in this body of death (Flesh).. Yes the pure of heart, and you said it right, those made perfect in Jesus will see God in the heavenly realm.. NOT HERE IN OUR BODIES OF SIN.. I thank God for your witness.. IHS jim

Russianwolfe

01-09-2011, 07:38 PM

So right brother.. Not one of us.. Not even a Great man of God like Paul in worthy of receiving anything from God in this body of death (Flesh).. Yes the pure of heart, and you said it right, those made perfect in Jesus will see God in the heavenly realm.. NOT HERE IN OUR BODIES OF SIN.. I thank God for your witness.. IHS jim

You are now guilty of adding to the scriptures. Christ said, Blessed be the pure in heart for they shall see God. Where do you get all the other stuff?

Marvin

Russianwolfe

01-09-2011, 07:50 PM

Jesus was not MADE a spirit. (You changed the verse.)

Why doesn't this conflict with your doctrine of Christ was not created?

He is from everlasting to everlasting

If you would only realize that your definition of this is from Greek philosophy and not ancient Hebrew.

..the Alpha and Omega..without beginning or ending.

Again, you are misusing the scripture out of cultural context.

He was with God in the beginning and was God.

Which means that He was with God the Father, who is God, and he was God because God the Father made him so. Which means that there are two Gods in heaven, at least.

He was never a man like us.

And yet, Christ said that those who had seen him had seen the Father. I don't think it could be said any clearer. Which also contradicts the idea that God is invisible by nature.

Jesus' resurrected body is called ‘spiritual’ and ‘life-giving spirit’ because its source is the spiritual realm, not because its substance is immaterial

Since you have no scripture that says that spirit is immaterial, you are stating a falsehood. No matter how you label it, Christ's resurrected body was a body of flesh and bones.

. Christ’s supernatural resurrection body is ‘from heaven,’ as Adam’s natural body was ‘of the earth.

I would like to see the scripture you use to justify this statement. The apostles recognized Christ, thus lending the idea that the body that was resurrected looked like the body that they knew when he was mortal. Also, the tomb was empty. Which leads us to conclude that the same body that died was the same taht was resurrected.

This won't make sense to you because the lds jesus is merely an exalted man, a god among zillions, your brother and the brother of the devil. You do not even know who Christ was before His incarnation.

You mean Jehovah? Since the Fall of Adam, Christ has been the mediator between God the Father and man. Unless the scriptures explicitly state otherewise, any appearance by God is Jehovah or Christ before the incarnation.

The biblical Christ created satan.

Then God is responsible for all sin and wickedness in the world and man cannot be held responsible.

Please explain to me how a father can also be the brother of his son?

That's your problem, not ours.

As for the pure in heart seeing God, yes, those who have been justified by faith in Jesus Christ and cleaned in His precious blood will be ushered into His holy presence the moment they p*** from this earthly life. It is our blessed hope to bow in His holy presence, cleaned, washed and robed in His pure righteousness.

Can you provide the scriptures that link the Bea***udes with this concept?

Now do you think you can answer my questions?

GOD SAID no man can see Him and live. Did God Lie???

Of course not. Why do you think he did? The scriptures witness to the fact that prophets have entered the presence of God and have not diedl. Moses and 70 of the elders of Israel saw God and lived. Adam saw God and lived. Isaiah saw God and lived. How do you reconcile these scriptural facts, with your scripture? Have the scriptures lied? Is the word of God confused?

Jesus said no man has seen the Father at anytime except the Son. Did Christ lie???

See above. And please provide scriptures to back up your beliefs.

Marvin

James Banta

01-10-2011, 08:14 AM

You are now guilty of adding to the scriptures. Christ said, Blessed be the pure in heart for they shall see God. Where do you get all the other stuff?

Marvin

Really where did I come out with this added to set of scripture.. I said that those pure in heart will see God.. I interpreted it to mean that this won't happen until we have been brought into His Kingdom to ever be with the Lord.. Whether that be at our death or at the Great Day of God when He comes for His Church.. Not until that day will se see God. For the Bible tells is that no man has seen God at any time.. As men we will not be so honored as being made clean in the blood of Jesus with no more trace of the filth of the flesh then we will see Him.. That is the message.. Smith didn't see God. It is in violation of the word he has preserved for us.. That is a fairy story made up in his mind, for:

John 1:18
No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
At any time.. Any time means the past, present, and future.. All men are barred form this.. When we set aside humanity and take on the likeness of Jesus then and only then will we see as He does and he will manifest the Father to us.. Only then will we perceive that which is invisible.. IHS jim

Knox

01-10-2011, 08:59 AM

Jesus was not MADE a spirit. (You changed the verse.)

"...the last Adam was made a quickening spirit."

I didn't change it. If you think someone has changed the Bible so that it says that Jesus (the last Adam) was made a spirit who quickens people, then what did the original m****cript say? Here, check out other Bibles:

(New International Version, ©2010)
45 So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being”[a]; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit.

(New American Standard Bible)
45So also it is written, "The first (A)MAN, Adam, BECAME A LIVING SOUL " The (B)last Adam became a (C)life-giving spirit.

(Holman Christian Standard Bible)
45 So it is written: The first man Adam became a living being ; (A) (B) the last Adam (C) became a life-giving Spirit.

Important Question: WHEN did Jesus become (or when was He made) a life-giving spirit?

a) He has always been that.
b) He became that life-giving spirit when He was born of the Virgin Mary.
c) He became that life-giving spirit when He was crucified.
d) other

Jesus' resurrected body is called ‘spiritual’ and ‘life-giving spirit’ because its source is the spiritual realm, not because its substance is immaterial.
Gee, that sounds a lot like what John 4:24 could mean where it says "God is spirit"--- that God's resurrected body is called ‘spiritual’ and ‘life-giving spirit’ because its source is the spiritual realm, not because its substance is immaterial. Excellent exegesis, Erik! You just explained J 4:24's intended meaning.

James Banta

01-10-2011, 09:18 AM

[Russianwolfe;75154]But in the case of diamonds (and this is where your ****ogy fails completely) they are both created.

Can you know God's nature except by what He has done? I can't. Someday as I stand in His glory maybe I will be given more knowledge of His eternal nature.. What I was trying to say was that our spirits were created and His is different in that it has existed fro everlasting and will continue to everlasting.. He is eternal we and finite. By that description alone anyone can see that e differ from our Creator..

The Bible says that God 'formeth' it does not say that God 'createth' the spirit of man within him.
To form isn't an act of creation? That is news to me.. Even when a man forms an object such as a snow man it is his creation.. True when we do this we use preexistant material. In the case of a snowman we use snow.. So if God used some preexistant material that is fine it just wasn't "FORMED" into a spirit until it was so formed within us..

We have no scripture that says how spirit are created. We only know that they are created from what is refered to as intelligence. Every thing you said about spirits is your own private interpretation based on the understanding of men who were speculating. Surely you knew this!!!???

I don't care and have not stated how God formed the spirits of men.. I have only said that He formed them within us not is some preexistant world somewhere.. The bible tells us that we were not formed as a spirit until we had a body to form it in.. That isn't how, it when and where.. This straight forward explanation of where and when God formed our spirits is denied by mormonism.. You seem to have accepted that unbiblical doctrine and instead have taken a doctrine of a man believing the man over God.. Fine do so just STOP telling the world that you know better than God and our spirits were formed by a union of a heavenly Mother and Father and exited long before our bodies did.. That isn't the truth as sated in the scripture..

And you are ***uming that forms means the same as create. That is your interpretation. My understanding differs. If God formed but did not create the spirit of man within him, then it had to exist before it was formed within man. For your interpretation to be true, form would have to be the same as create which it is not. You form something from something else. That is not an act of creation as God would do for your interpretation to be true.

Is that not what mormonism does with the word create? Does it mean Ex Nihilo to you, No it means that God took self existent material and formed (Created) all things.. You are fighting here against yourself.. Are you willing to say now that because the Bible says that God created the heavens and the earth he did so Ex Nihiol. If that is what you are sayings here by dividing create and formed I am willing to give you the point.. But if you follow LDS teaching that God merely organized the universe from self existent material then I dispute your double meanings of the word create. When you want it to mean formed it means formed.. But in this case you don't want formed to mean create.. Get off that shifting sand!!!

You must be right because you just said so. NOT!

Me? I am willing to go by what the Bible teaches are you? What does create mean, Does it mean formed, or does it mean Ex Nihiol. You can have it both ways.. I can deal with what ever definition you want to use just pick ONE..

You have to interpret the Bible otherwise you will not understand it. I know that the Bible says something, but once you attempt to explain to me what it means you have to interpret it. So your claim of not interpreting the scripture is false.
You are correct in a real sense.. I take the interpretation that is clearly stated in each p***age.. You choose to make up your own meaning. This is like Ezek 37 where God tells us what the sticks are but mormonism makes up it's own meaning.. I will keep holding to the meaning of the words that are in the p***age as what any given p***age means.. You can keep looking for some hidden meaning that is not given anywhere but the minds of a man..

If anyone is aligning with the God haters, it must be you. You are not showing what you believe in meekness and humility as Peter said you should. All you have is what is not true, but you fail to show what is true in meekness and humility.

Really? You say that because I am willing to accept and happy with what God has told us about what spirit is and you insist on having more? I have given you all the Bible says about it.. I haven't invented anything.. Yet you demand more.. You make the same demand I have heard on the subject time and again as I have spoken to atheists. They are the God haters that I see your argument coming from.. These are their thoughts not mine..As I have said I have no problem at all accepting what God's word teaches. I make no further demands ans you and your God hating fiends do.. This shows you how I see this attack of yours. How about you show me how I side with them in any way..

I have asked very simple questions and attempted to keep you on topic. You have failed to provide any scriptures that answers any of the questions that I have asked. All you have is bluster. I have shown that God is invisible by choice and I have pointed out that if what you believe is true, then God has left a gaping hole in your salvation by not at the very least telling us what spirit is so we can know God as John 17:3 says is Life Eternal.

And I have given you what the bible says on the subject and like the God haters you reject it and make demands for more than what is given there.. Yes this is life eternal to know the only true God and Jesus whom He has sent.. maybe it means more than knowing that He is Spirit.. Maybe it means knowing His attributes and Him purposes along with knowing that He is an invisible person without flesh and bone.. Maybe there is a lot more about knowing Him. Knowing that He is LOVE, JUDGMENT, MERCY, LONG SUFFERING.. There seems to be many things to know of God. Maybe learning about them is a big part of keeping that verse.. But to you it seems more important to know what a spirit is made of.. I have given you what the Bible reveals on that subject..

How can asking questions make me a God hater. You have used this tactic before. It failed then and it will fail now. Name calling is not a valid debating technique.

It isn't the question it's the refusal to accept what God had given as an answer.. Every thing that the Bible has said on the subject has been given to you. You can accept it as a Christian would or reject it and seek some other information on the subject in other places until you come to your own personal interpretation of the meaning of SPIRIT.. In doing that you side with the God haters.. IHS jim

Knox

01-10-2011, 03:16 PM

To form isn't an act of creation? That is news to me.. Even when a man forms an object such as a snow man it is his creation.. True when we do this we use preexistant material. In the case of a snowman we use snow.. So if God used some preexistant material that is fine it just wasn't "FORMED" into a spirit until it was so formed within us.. IHS jim

Good point, Jim. You sound LDS.

ErikErik

01-11-2011, 05:06 AM

"...the last Adam was made a quickening spirit."

I didn't change it. If you think someone has changed the Bible so that it says that Jesus (the last Adam) was made a spirit who quickens people, then what did the original m****cript say? Here, check out other Bibles:

(New International Version, ©2010)
45 So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being”[a]; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit.

(New American Standard Bible)
45So also it is written, "The first (A)MAN, Adam, BECAME A LIVING SOUL " The (B)last Adam became a (C)life-giving spirit.

(Holman Christian Standard Bible)
45 So it is written: The first man Adam became a living being ; (A) (B) the last Adam (C) became a life-giving Spirit.

Important Question: WHEN did Jesus become (or when was He made) a life-giving spirit?

a) He has always been that.
b) He became that life-giving spirit when He was born of the Virgin Mary.
c) He became that life-giving spirit when He was crucified.
d) other

Gee, that sounds a lot like what John 4:24 could mean where it says "God is spirit"--- that God's resurrected body is called ‘spiritual’ and ‘life-giving spirit’ because its source is the spiritual realm, not because its substance is immaterial. Excellent exegesis, Erik! You just explained J 4:24's intended meaning.

Knox, being made a quickening spirit does NOT mean Jesus was MADE. You changed it to spirit leaving out the word quickening, which changes the meaning. Please get a Bible concordance and dictionary. You can usually get them in a set. It very clearly explains what quickening spirit means. What is a life giving spirit? It means Christ was able to give life, or impart life. By His death he reconciled man to God. By His atonement we can now have forgiveness and eternal salvation. That is the New Covenant. Jesus Christ said I am the Way, the Truth and the Life. He alone offers everlasting life.

God the Son was NOT MADE. He always was. Read Revelations again. What did God the Son say about himself? I AM ALPHA AND OMEGA. THE BEGINNING AND THE ENDING. He ALWAYS was. Unlike the mormon jesus who was a man made of corruptible flesh since all flesh is corruptible. Had to learn obedience because he was human and all humans are born with the nature to sin. Now this mormon jesus is some kind of exalted man. Oh and the mormon jesus was conceived the same way your parents conceived you. So yes, mormons believe jesus was MADE. But God said in His word, IN THE BEGINNING WAS THE WORD, AND THE WORD WAS WITH GOD AND THE WORD WAS GOD.

I asked you who or what what God the Son before His incarnation. Again, you avoided answering. Was He Jehovah God? If you believe He was, then He was always God and Not made like you and me.

Can't go back further than the BEGINNING now can we. Seems you habitually call God a liar. Every time I ask you questions about whether God lied, you avoid answering.

BTW, when did mormons start advocating different bible versions? I thought you guys only endorsed the KJV.

ErikErik

01-11-2011, 05:08 AM

"

Gee, that sounds a lot like what John 4:24 could mean where it says "God is spirit"--- that God's resurrected body is called ‘spiritual’ and ‘life-giving spirit’ because its source is the spiritual realm, not because its substance is immaterial. Excellent exegesis, Erik! You just explained J 4:24's intended meaning.

So you believe it was Heavenly Father that was resurrected? Marvin believes that.

ErikErik

01-11-2011, 05:16 AM

Why doesn't this conflict with your doctrine of Christ was not created?

If you would only realize that your definition of this is from Greek philosophy and not ancient Hebrew.

Again, you are misusing the scripture out of cultural context.

Which means that He was with God the Father, who is God, and he was God because God the Father made him so. Which means that there are two Gods in heaven, at least.

And yet, Christ said that those who had seen him had seen the Father. I don't think it could be said any clearer. Which also contradicts the idea that God is invisible by nature.

Since you have no scripture that says that spirit is immaterial, you are stating a falsehood. No matter how you label it, Christ's resurrected body was a body of flesh and bones.

I would like to see the scripture you use to justify this statement. The apostles recognized Christ, thus lending the idea that the body that was resurrected looked like the body that they knew when he was mortal. Also, the tomb was empty. Which leads us to conclude that the same body that died was the same taht was resurrected.

You mean Jehovah? Since the Fall of Adam, Christ has been the mediator between God the Father and man. Unless the scriptures explicitly state otherewise, any appearance by God is Jehovah or Christ before the incarnation.

Then God is responsible for all sin and wickedness in the world and man cannot be held responsible.

That's your problem, not ours.

Can you provide the scriptures that link the Bea***udes with this concept?

Of course not. Why do you think he did? The scriptures witness to the fact that prophets have entered the presence of God and have not diedl. Moses and 70 of the elders of Israel saw God and lived. Adam saw God and lived. Isaiah saw God and lived. How do you reconcile these scriptural facts, with your scripture? Have the scriptures lied? Is the word of God confused?

See above. And please provide scriptures to back up your beliefs.

Marvin

Here we go again. No matter how many times its explained to you that God said NO MAN CAN SEE ME AND LIVE, you and the the lds says Moses saw Him, other prophets saw Him. A guy named Smith saw him! So in actuality Marvin, you trust in and believe in men more than in God. This is why mormonism suits you. Its it based on doctrines of men.

Nowhere in all of Scriptures did any man ever SEE God. Please explain to me the need for God to cover Moses face? All men ever saw was God's GLORY. His brightness. No Face, No body. Please prove otherwise.

You still have not given me a single biblical reference that God has a body as tangible as man's. None of the lds on here has found a single verse in all of the Holy Bible.