Biblical Proof that it's impossible for God to have a body? [Archive]

James Banta

01-06-2011, 06:42 PM

What if God is just really large, like the monster in "Cloverfield"? Solomon's temple couldn't contain that monster, either, so "temple can't contain" doesn't prove "no body."

What if? Did you just say "What If"? Why is it you are ready to toss away what the Bible teaches about God and try to make up your own God based on your own "what ifs".. The Bible says He is Spirit.. Solomon said that that the Spirit that is God was bigger then His small temple continuing saying that even the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain Him.. And you answer is to say that you think it means that He is a monster.. Well maybe as you stand before Him to b judged by your works, a lifetime of failure to keep His statutes you will see Him as a monster..

Those of us that are in Jesus will see Him as the loving Father He really wants to be.. IHS jim

MacG

01-06-2011, 07:09 PM

What if God is just really large, like the monster in "Cloverfield"? Solomon's temple couldn't contain that monster, either, so "temple can't contain" doesn't prove "no body."

"1 Surely the arm of the LORD is not too short to save, " IS:59

He gotta be big for His arm to reach from the Kolob system...;)

Knox

01-07-2011, 02:09 PM

"1 Surely the arm of the LORD is not too short to save, " IS:59
He gotta be big for His arm to reach from the Kolob system...;)

Good one, Mac. So, does anyone have anything that would convince LDS people that it is impossible for God to be a spirit with a body? You know, like His Son is? Of course, if Trinitarianism is true, then you already believe that God has a body, since one of the 3 Persons that make up God, does indeed have a body which was shown to many people--according to the Bible.

So maybe this thread is unnecessary, if you all already believe that God (at least one-third of what you believe to be God) has a body.

Knox

01-07-2011, 02:20 PM

Maybe the whole issue is trivial, if it's just a matter of Trinitarians believing that 1/3 of God has a body, and LDS believing that 2/3 of God have bodies. What's the big deal about a mere fraction?

James Banta

01-08-2011, 12:00 AM

Maybe the whole issue is trivial, if it's just a matter of Trinitarians believing that 1/3 of God has a body, and LDS believing that 2/3 of God have bodies. What's the big deal about a mere fraction?

It has to do with knowing the true God and not the ravings of a false teacher.. A false teacher that taught a false God.. Holding a false God to be God is to deny eternal life to those that accept the false teaching:

John 17:3
And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
If you deny the witness God gave of Himself you have turned to idols and as you turned to idols you turn away from eternal life.. That sounds pretty serious to me.. IHS jim

Knox

01-10-2011, 08:52 AM

It has to do with knowing the true God and not the ravings of a false teacher..

But it's the BIBLE that says that two of the 3 Persons are so much alike that it's hard to distinguish between them. Is the Bible the ravings of a madman?

THE BIBLE says that Jesus is like His Father in every way. Notice that it doesn't say that about the Holy Spirit. Hmmmm. Maybe there is some difference between The Holy Spirit, and the other two Persons. I wonder what that difference could be. Any guesses, Jim?

James Banta

01-10-2011, 09:24 AM

But it's the BIBLE that says that two of the 3 Persons are so much alike that it's hard to distinguish between them. Is the Bible the ravings of a madman?

THE BIBLE says that Jesus is like His Father in every way. Notice that it doesn't say that about the Holy Spirit. Hmmmm. Maybe there is some difference between The Holy Spirit, and the other two Persons. I wonder what that difference could be. Any guesses, Jim?

How one ever asked Jesus to show them the Holy Spirit.. Since He is God when you have seen Jesus (Who is God) you have also seen the Holy Spirit.. They are one in their BEING.. You are to into the physical here and not into the nature of the divine persons.. They are ALL alike in that nature.. God is Spirit, a spirit in invisible.. Jesus is NOT INVISIBLE.. He doesn't look like something that can't be seen by the eyes of flesh. He took on the same flesh that we walk in.. His nature reveals the Father as it reveals the Holy Spirit.. Jesus answered the question, He made it clear that He is the Mighty God, the everlasting Father.. Is there any dispute on that point? IHS jim

MacG

01-10-2011, 12:49 PM

and LDS believing that 2/3 of God have bodies. ?

LDS seriously believe this?

Billyray

01-10-2011, 12:52 PM

THE BIBLE says that Jesus is like His Father in every way.

Did God the Father come to this earth and gain a body?

Knox

01-10-2011, 02:16 PM

... Jesus is NOT INVISIBLE.. He doesn't look like something that can't be seen by the eyes of flesh. He took on the same flesh that we walk in.. His nature reveals the Father as it reveals the Holy Spirit.. Jesus answered the question, He made it clear that He is the Mighty God, the everlasting Father.. Is there any dispute on that point? IHS jim
Ever heard the expression "Like Father, like Son?"

Knox

01-10-2011, 02:18 PM

LDS seriously believe this?

Yup, LDS believe that the Godhead consists of 3 Persons, and that 2 of those 3 have been resurrected and have immortal bodies that you could be allowed to see and embrace.

Billyray

01-10-2011, 02:25 PM

Yup, LDS believe that the Godhead consists of 3 Persons, and that 2 of those 3 have been resurrected and have immortal bodies that you could be allowed to see and embrace.

Why do you think that no other Christian church that I am aware of except the FLDS believe that God the Father has a body of flesh and bones and was a man on another planet?

MacG

01-10-2011, 03:09 PM

Yup, LDS believe that the Godhead consists of 3 Persons, and that 2 of those 3 have been resurrected and have immortal bodies that you could be allowed to see and embrace.

AH, Godhead not God. Got it.

Curious though. Jesus humbled himself not thinking that being equal with God was not stealing from God humbled Himself and died on a cross for my sins and yours and was resureected on the thrid day defeating death, oh death where is thy sting, where O grave is thy victory? What the did the Father die for and what was the purpose for his early resurrection ahead of all of us carnalized spirit babies?

MacG

Knox

01-10-2011, 04:32 PM

Why do you think that no other Christian church that I am aware of except the FLDS believe that God the Father has a body of flesh and bones and was a man on another planet?

I think the reason that mainstream Christianity currently doesn't believe in this doctrine, is that it abandoned it back when it was being influenced by pagan theology.

Knox

01-10-2011, 04:43 PM

AH, Godhead not God. Got it. Curious though. Jesus humbled himself not thinking that being equal with God was not stealing from God humbled Himself and died on a cross for my sins and yours and was resureected on the thrid day defeating death, oh death where is thy sting, where O grave is thy victory?
Amen to all that. Well said. I wonder if the other implication in that p***age, is that just as Jesus didn't think it robbery to be equal with His Father, we should not think it robbery to want to become like Jesus.

What the did the Father die for and what was the purpose for his early resurrection ahead of all of us carnalized spirit babies?
The only info we have in the Bible on that, is Jesus saying that He only did what He saw His Father do, and the Bible verse that says that Jesus is like His Father in every way, which would mean that the Father is like Jesus in every way.

Billyray

01-10-2011, 05:35 PM

I think the reason that mainstream Christianity currently doesn't believe in this doctrine, is that it abandoned it back when it was being influenced by pagan theology.

Because this would of happened long after the OT and the NT were written don't you think that there would be some mention in the Bible that God the Father had a body of flesh and bone and that he was a man that lived on another planet?

MacG

01-10-2011, 05:44 PM

Amen to all that. Well said. I wonder if the other implication in that p***age, is that just as Jesus didn't think it robbery to be equal with His Father, we should not think it robbery to want to become like Jesus.

Since when does becoming like Him equate to equal. Lots of things are like one another for instance Obama is like me however I will never be equal to him especially on the b-ball court.

The only info we have in the Bible on that, is Jesus saying that He only did what He saw His Father do, and the Bible verse that says that Jesus is like His Father in every way, which would mean that the Father is like Jesus in every way.

Aw, why limit yourself to the deficient mistake ridden bible ;) I know at least one of your Apostles thought that Adam was God the Father. What published TCJCLDS literature (paid for with your ***he money BTW) contradicts this prophetic utterance (prophecy in the preaching sense)?

MacG

Knox

01-11-2011, 07:17 AM

Since when does becoming like Him equate to equal.
How do you know that Jesus is equal to His Father in every way?

Lots of things are like one another for instance Obama is like me however I will never be equal to him especially on the b-ball court.
He probably cheats and plays dirty. He had that elbow coming to him.

Aw, why limit yourself to the deficient mistake ridden bible ;)
So I can support LDS doctrines with a book that you won't reject.

I know at least one of your Apostles thought that Adam was God the Father.
You don't know that. You believe certain interpretations of what was reportedly said. McConkie, while an apostle, stated that Adam is a child of God the Father like the rest of us are. He said that the idea that Adam is Jesus and our "Father who art in heaven" is false doctrine and that any LDS who believes it's a true doctrine, is on the road to apostasy. I agree. But if you are not LDS, you are free to believe that Adam is your heavenly father, and there is nothing the LDS church can or will do to punish you for so believing.

James Banta

01-12-2011, 08:35 AM

Ever heard the expression "Like Father, like Son?"

I have heard people say it normally about a criminal father so his son must be a criminal too. But try as I might I can't find this saying in the Bible.. Can you.. I am here to explain the problems of mormonism to mormons not to defend old sayings.. IHS jim

Knox

01-12-2011, 07:25 PM

I have heard people say it normally about a criminal father
Are you calling Jesus' Father a criminal?

so his son must be a criminal too.
Are you calling Jesus a criminal? Why can't the expression "Like Father, like Son" be used as a reference to two GOOD people, to say that a Son is very good because He takes after His Father?

But try as I might I can't find this saying in the Bible.. Can you..
Yes I can, because I am familiar with the Bible, so I will help you out:

"God's Son has all the brightness of God's own glory and is like him in every way."

Hebrews 1:3 (Contemporary English Version)

Like Father, like Son.

MacG

01-12-2011, 07:56 PM

MacG

01-12-2011, 08:08 PM

You don't know that. You believe certain interpretations of what was reportedly said. McConkie, while an apostle, stated that Adam is a child of God the Father like the rest of us are. He said that the idea that Adam is Jesus and our "Father who art in heaven" is false doctrine and that any LDS who believes it's a true doctrine, is on the road to apostasy. I agree. But if you are not LDS, you are free to believe that Adam is your heavenly father, and there is nothing the LDS church can or will do to punish you for so believing.

Brigham was an apostate?? TCJCLDS did not have hymns published that reinforced and encouraged one another with song in regards to Adam being God, well at least being Michael the Archangel?

MacG

Knox

01-13-2011, 07:13 AM

Brigham was an apostate??
He would have been, if he had really taught what some people think he taught.
What McConkie labeled heresy was an interpretation of Young's teachings that concluded that Adam is the same person as the "Trinity's" Person of the Father. McConkie said that IF Young had ever taught such a thing, then Young taught a false doctrine.

TCJCLDS did not have hymns published that reinforced and encouraged one another with song in regards to Adam being God, well at least being Michael the Archangel?
I don't know. If you have an example, post it and I will be enlightened.

James Banta

01-13-2011, 08:52 AM

He would have been, if he had really taught what some people think he taught.
What McConkie labeled heresy was an interpretation of Young's teachings that concluded that Adam is the same person as the "Trinity's" Person of the Father. McConkie said that IF Young had ever taught such a thing, then Young taught a false doctrine.

I don't know. If you have an example, post it and I will be enlightened.

Then Young was an apostate.. He did teach those thing and McConkie admitted it.. He said that Yes BY did teach those things.. Have you not tead His actual words?

Yes, President Young did teach that Adam was the father of our spirits, and all the related things that the cultists ascribe to him. This [i.e., Brigham Young's teaching on Adam], however, is not true. He expressed views that are out of harmony with the gospel. But, be it known, Brigham Young also taught accurately and correctly, the status and position of Adam in the eternal scheme of things. What I am saying is, that Brigham Young, contradicted Brigham Young, and the issue becomes one of which Brigham Young we will believe. The answer is we will believe the expressions that accord with the teachings in the Standard Works. (Letter from Bruce McConkie to Eugene England dated Feb. 19, 1981)..
No interpretation about it he said that it is just like we anti's say it is.. Do you see that in the exerts from the letter: "all the related things that the cultists ascribe to him". He was calling me a cultist but I consider the source.. IHS jim

Knox

01-14-2011, 05:37 AM

Do you see that in the exerts from the letter: "all the related things that the cultists ascribe to him". He was calling me a cultist but I consider the source.. IHS jim
So, since you are considering the source, does that mean that you think McConkie's opinion should not be trusted? Was he a dishonest person, in your opinion?

James Banta

01-14-2011, 11:04 AM

So, since you are considering the source, does that mean that you think McConkie's opinion should not be trusted? Was he a dishonest person, in your opinion?

I don't believe McConkie about any point of doctrine.. I guess he was a fairly honest man in his dealing in business, but about his religious views he was on of the insiders, I man I would never trust.. Does that mean he lied about what he knew about young when talking to another insider, I doubt that.. And you trust Him as an apostle of Jesus. Do you think he would tell such huge lie? Can you show anywhere where he said he was lying about these statement? You made an unsupported claim about McConkie. I showed you where you were wrong. Now you try to excuse it because I don't find him to be a credible teacher.. That dear one is flimsy.. IHS jim

MacG

01-14-2011, 01:12 PM

Knox

01-14-2011, 04:45 PM

I don't believe McConkie about any point of doctrine..
So if he is talking about the idea, allegedly believed by a few heretics, that Adam and Jesus' Father in Heaven are the same PERSON, you don't believe him when he says it's a false doctrine?

I guess he was a fairly honest man in his dealing in business, but about his religious views he was on of the insiders, I man I would never trust.
I am trying to figure out how much you trust him.

Knox

01-14-2011, 04:54 PM

See zip file.

Thanks for the link, but I thought you were gonna provide something I haven't seen before. BTW, how do you post snapshot zip files like that? That seems really useful.

Anyhow, I was asking you for examples that support your implication that

"TCJCLDS did... have hymns published that reinforced and encouraged one another with song in regards to Adam being God, well at least being Michael the Archangel"

but the document you posted--the famous JoD section that supposedly identifies Adam as the Person Jesus in the Garden was praying to--isn't a hymn or song, as far as I can tell. It's just part of a controversial lecture.

And as for the idea that Adam is the incarnated angel Michael, that is bona fide church doctrine, I believe.

MacG

01-15-2011, 01:23 PM

Thanks for the link, but I thought you were gonna provide something I haven't seen before. BTW, how do you post snapshot zip files like that? That seems really useful.

Anyhow, I was asking you for examples that support your implication that

"TCJCLDS did... have hymns published that reinforced and encouraged one another with song in regards to Adam being God, well at least being Michael the Archangel"

but the document you posted--the famous JoD section that supposedly identifies Adam as the Person Jesus in the Garden was praying to--isn't a hymn or song, as far as I can tell. It's just part of a controversial lecture.

And as for the idea that Adam is the incarnated angel Michael, that is bona fide church doctrine, I believe.

...click the link and do a "find" (crtl+f work in my browser) for Adam-God and it will jump right to the pertinent section:

Adam-God Doctrine in Mormon Hymns (http://mormonmessenger.org/370/forgotten-hymns-forgotten-doctrines/#sdfootnote25sym)

"Interestingly, the next line speaks of “His Son, Jesus Christ.” Two Adam-God hymns, surprisingly, still remain in the hymnbook. Although, the words of one of them {empahsis mine}, have been altered somewhat from the original text"

MacG

Knox

01-15-2011, 09:46 PM

...click the link and do a "find" (crtl+f work in my browser) for Adam-God and it will jump right to the pertinent section:

MacG

Thanks. I found this elsewhere about the one song which appeared only in the European songbook, and only for one edition:

It was, however, deleted in the 12th edition (1863) and is found only in this one edition of all the LDS hymnals.

The specific reason for its deletion has not been documented, but other evidence reveals a reservation about the dissemination of the non-official Adam-God concepts.http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:LGv98-cFwhgJ:www.mormonmiscellaneous.com/notecards/id91.html+Sacred+Hymns+and+Spiritual+Songs,+1856.&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=firefox-a

Also, your source claims "Two Adam-God hymns, surprisingly, still remain in the hymnbook." But I read them and your source's claim that they teach that Adam and Jesus' Father in Heaven are the same Person, is patently false.

James Banta

01-15-2011, 11:04 PM

So if he is talking about the idea, allegedly believed by a few heretics, that Adam and Jesus' Father in Heaven are the same PERSON, you don't believe him when he says it's a false doctrine?

I am trying to figure out how much you trust him.

I believe him on proven points of history.. Something that is recorded that he can't deny.. These are not doctrines.. Young taught the doctrine not McConkie.. McConkie just admitted that Young taught such things.. the only reason he did that is because it is an undeniable fact of history.. I point to him because he was a LDS authority who admitted the history when it is hitting him direct in the face..

I guess you are calling Young one of the few HERETICS.. I never said that McConkie taught a different doctrine in this letter.. All he did was admit that Young taught such doctrine.. I don't quote him because I find him to be any kind of authority.. I quote him because mormonism holds that he was an apostle of the LDS church.. That should make his words authoritative to you.. At least for now.. IHS jim

Knox

01-17-2011, 12:03 PM

So where do you claim that he lied, then? What statements of his do you NOT believe to be truthful?

James Banta

01-17-2011, 12:27 PM

So where do you claim that he lied, then? What statements of his do you NOT believe to be truthful?

I didn't say he lied.. I said I don't believe what he says.. Just because I don't trust him doesn't mean he is necessarily a liar.. I have heard him many time say things I totally agree with.. Other times he is more mormon that any man that ever lives save Orson Pratt.. And just as out spoken in his error.. I don't even call Young a liar.. Critically deceived to the point of spiritual death but I really believe that in his mind that Adam was his father and his God.. That is the depth of his error, the depth his ANTI_BIBLICAL teachings had sank.. IHS jim

James Banta

01-17-2011, 01:47 PM

"And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high" NASB

He didn't understand.. I said just what you did.. I just tried to put it into terms that a child could understand and he jumped on one word instead of the meaning of the example.. IHS jim

Knox

01-17-2011, 03:26 PM

I didn't say he lied.. I said I don't believe what he says.. Just because I don't trust him doesn't mean he is necessarily a liar.. I have heard him many time say things I totally agree with.. Other times he is more mormon that any man that ever lives save Orson Pratt.. And just as out spoken in his error.. I don't even call Young a liar.. Critically deceived to the point of spiritual death but I really believe that in his mind that Adam was his father and his God.. That is the depth of his error, the depth his ANTI_BIBLICAL teachings had sank.. IHS jim

Then what do think of the claims of some of your pals over on 'another forum' that say that all LDS people lie? Are your friends correct? Or are they, um, "critically deceived to the point of saying untrue things without realizing it" ?

MacG

01-18-2011, 12:06 AM

Thanks. I found this elsewhere about the one song which appeared only in the European songbook, and only for one edition:

It was, however, deleted in the 12th edition (1863) and is found only in this one edition of all the LDS hymnals.

The specific reason for its deletion has not been documented, but other evidence reveals a reservation about the dissemination of the non-official Adam-God concepts.http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:LGv98-cFwhgJ:www.mormonmiscellaneous.com/notecards/id91.html+Sacred+Hymns+and+Spiritual+Songs,+1856.&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=firefox-a

Also, your source claims "Two Adam-God hymns, surprisingly, still remain in the hymnbook." But I read them and your source's claim that they teach that Adam and Jesus' Father in Heaven are the same Person, is patently false.

It's run by Mormons why would they present that which is patently false?

MacG

Knox

01-18-2011, 10:03 AM

It's run by Mormons
It seems to be run by fundamentalists.

why would they present that which is patently false?
Several possible reasons, including:

1. They have a poor understanding of the material and therefore their conclusions were incorrect.

2. They have a fundie agenda and therefore it's in their interest to reach the conclusions they reach.

MacG

01-18-2011, 01:15 PM

It seems to be run by fundamentalists.

Several possible reasons, including:

1. They have a poor understanding of the material and therefore their conclusions were incorrect.

2. They have a fundie agenda and therefore it's in their interest to reach the conclusions they reach.

I see and you of course have no such agenda :rolleyes:

James Banta

01-20-2011, 08:30 AM

Then what do think of the claims of some of your pals over on 'another forum' that say that all LDS people lie? Are your friends correct? Or are they, um, "critically deceived to the point of saying untrue things without realizing it" ?

I will rest my belief on the Bible.. ALL HAVE SINNED.. The prophet Isaiah admitted he was a liar (Isaiah 6:5) Are you going to say that your "prophets" are somehow better than he? IHS jim

MacG

01-20-2011, 02:18 PM

I see and you of course have no such agenda :rolleyes:

Knox, I understood what you meant by the Fundiies comment. BUt what makes them wrong?

MacG

Knox

01-20-2011, 07:50 PM

Knox, I understood what you meant by the Fundiies comment. BUt what makes them wrong?

MacG

Apparently, I am not allowed to tell you.

James Banta

01-22-2011, 01:51 PM

Apparently, I am not allowed to tell you.

You are allowed to say why Christians are wrong.. You aren't allowed to use words like FUNDIIES. Try fundamentalists, that might work for you.. IHS jim

Knox

01-22-2011, 04:08 PM

You are allowed to say why Christians are wrong.. You aren't allowed to use words like FUNDIIES. Try fundamentalists, that might work for you.. IHS jim

Hmmm. Okay, I guess there is some rule against referring to Fundamentalist MORMONS as "Fundies." Interesting.

What I found to be wrong about the conclusion made on that Fundamentalist MORMON site, was their claim that there are still two hymns in the LDS hymnbook that teach that Adam and Jesus' Father who art in Heaven are the same person. I read through each of those hymns, and saw no evidence that would support the conclusion that was made on that Fundamentalist MORMON site.

James Banta

01-23-2011, 09:39 AM

Hmmm. Okay, I guess there is some rule against referring to Fundamentalist MORMONS as "Fundies." Interesting.

What I found to be wrong about the conclusion made on that Fundamentalist MORMON site, was their claim that there are still two hymns in the LDS hymnbook that teach that Adam and Jesus' Father who art in Heaven are the same person. I read through each of those hymns, and saw no evidence that would support the conclusion that was made on that Fundamentalist MORMON site.

This is part of LDS history that they would like us to forget.. Still it was a clear teaching of B Young for decades.. It wasn't just a one time adoration.. In the Temples they confirm that Adam was one of the Gods that helped organize the world. B Young expanded on that concept and made him the primary God of this divine generation.. Today's mormonism would like this buried and forgotten but showing that all their so called authority comes through a false prophet, a man that spoke in the name of other Gods is very important to PROVE that all their claims to any authority to act in the name of God is a lie.. IHS jim

Knox

01-23-2011, 04:03 PM

This is part of LDS history that they would like us to forget..
What would YOU like? For us to forget it because you feel it's false doctrine, right? But here you are trying to make us remember it. Is that wise? If we remember it, maybe we will start believing it again, and it will be your fault because you weren't willing to let it be forgotten.

Today's mormonism would like this buried and forgotten but showing that all their so called authority comes through a false prophet, a man that spoke in the name of other Gods is very important to PROVE that all their claims to any authority to act in the name of God is a lie.. IHS jim

Something IS a lie, then? I thought you just finished saying

"I didn't say he lied.. I said I don't believe what he says.. Just because I don't trust him doesn't mean he is necessarily a liar.."

Maybe you can clear this up, Jim: You go through those 2 hymns that the "Fundamentalist Mormon site" claims teach that Adam is the same person as God the Father, and you show me the parts that teach that. Or, maybe you will be like me--unable to see that being taught.

James Banta

01-26-2011, 10:23 AM

[Knox;76012]What would YOU like? For us to forget it because you feel it's false doctrine, right? But here you are trying to make us remember it. Is that wise? If we remember it, maybe we will start believing it again, and it will be your fault because you weren't willing to let it be forgotten.

Just because you don't want to remember doesn't mean that you should forget it. You should remember all the out and out false doctrine that both Young and Smith invented. That Adam is God or that there are three Gods and you too can become a god.. Remember these things but believe God tells a different story (Isaiah 43:10).

Something IS a lie, then? I thought you just finished saying

Something is a lie if you know what you are saying is false.. I can't say the BYoung knew Adam wasn't really God. He may have believed that. But he had access to the Bible and didn't bother to check that doctrine before he made it public.. Not a lie you say, ok, but it is still proof that he was a false prophet because he spoke in the name of a false God.. UNLESS you also believe that Adam is our God and the only God with whom we have to do..

He (Adam) is our Father and our God, and the only God with whom we have to do" (Journal of Discourses, vol. 1, p. 50).
As I said I can go along with Young actually believing this but it is NOT TRUE and outside the promise that to know the only true God is to have eternal life..

John 17:3
And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

In teaching this it proves that Young is NOT a candidate for eternal life.. What you have is a prophet who was not a believer. Hell bound even by present day LDS teaching. After all, people are excommunicated for teaching this doctrine today..

"I didn't say he lied.. I said I don't believe what he says.. Just because I don't trust him doesn't mean he is necessarily a liar.."

Maybe you can clear this up, Jim: You go through those 2 hymns that the "Fundamentalist Mormon site" claims teach that Adam is the same person as God the Father, and you show me the parts that teach that. Or, maybe you will be like me--unable to see that being taught.

I have just showed that Young taught this doctrine.. It is not a far reach for me to believe that the FLDS still agree with his teachings.. IHS jim

BigJulie

04-22-2014, 09:13 PM

Here it is again.

James Banta

04-23-2014, 09:28 AM

Here it is again.

Yeap, and here again it was started my a LDS.. IHS jim

alanmolstad

03-16-2017, 02:06 PM

What if God is just really large, like the monster in "Cloverfield"? Solomon's temple couldn't contain that monster, either, so "temple can't contain" doesn't prove "no body."

interesting point.....and true enough I guess.

However 1 Kings 8:27 reads a bit differently than just saying a temple cant contain the Lord...

alanmolstad

05-24-2017, 04:26 AM

But will God really dwell on earth? The heavens, even the highest heaven, cannot contain you. How much less this temple I have built!

God is spirit, and a spirit does not have flesh and bones.

dberrie2000

05-24-2017, 04:59 AM

But will God really dwell on earth? The heavens, even the highest heaven, cannot contain you. How much less this temple I have built!

God is spirit, and a spirit does not have flesh and bones.

That seems to indicate you do not believe Jesus Christ is God:

Luke 24:39---King James Version (KJV)
39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

alanmolstad

05-24-2017, 04:57 PM

That seems to indicate you do not believe Jesus Christ is God:

Luke 24:39---King James Version (KJV)
39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

Jesus is both God and MAN!.....

Two totally different natures in the one person.

The divine nature of Christ is and always will be pure spirit.
And the human nature of Christ has a physical body of flesh and bone.

Understand now?

You are welcome,

dberrie2000

05-25-2017, 05:31 AM

Jesus is both God and MAN!.....

Two totally different natures in the one person.

The divine nature of Christ is and always will be pure spirit.
And the human nature of Christ has a physical body of flesh and bone.

Understand now?

I understand you testified God does not have flesh and bones:

Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post But will God really dwell on earth? The heavens, even the highest heaven, cannot contain you. How much less this temple I have built!

God is spirit, and a spirit does not have flesh and bones.

Then--you explain God really does possess a body of flesh and bones, by splitting up the nature of God into two different natures.

So--does God have a body of flesh and bones?

alanmolstad

05-25-2017, 04:53 PM

So--does God have a body of flesh and bones?

once again,,,Jesus has two totally different natures.

Jesus is both God and man.

Both 100% God Almighty, and 100% human.

In his nature as God, Jesus is pure spirit.
In his nature as man he is flesh and bone.

understand now?

We are not splitting the nature of God....the nature of God remains unchanged and always pure spirit.
But in the incarnation the Lord Jesus took on to himself the additional nature of man...

Jesus never stopped being God, never stopped being pure spirit .
But within his 2nd nature of a man Jesus is flesh and bone.

Thats is why we can say that "a spirit has not flesh and bone" and yet jesus had flesh and bone, and at the same time we can say that Jesus is God, and "God is spirit" and a spirit does not have flesh and bone.

2 different natures,,,always in play...

Christian

05-26-2017, 06:39 AM

Are you calling Jesus' Father a criminal?

Are you calling Jesus a criminal? Why can't the expression "Like Father, like Son" be used as a reference to two GOOD people, to say that a Son is very good because He takes after His Father?

Yes I can, because I am familiar with the Bible, so I will help you out:

"God's Son has all the brightness of God's own glory and is like him in every way."

Hebrews 1:3 (Contemporary English Version)

Like Father, like Son.

I guess English is NOT your primary language? Is YOUR father as ignorant as that sounds?
NOBODY has called God a criminal and NOBODY has called Jesus Christa Criminal.

AND OF COURSE you have never found that particular idiom in the Bible; it isn't there. . .you have to SPECULATE to make it appear to be there.

Your so-called 'familiarity' with the Bible seems to be SADLY LACKING in the CONTEXT department.

Is THAT why you chose such a mediocre translation of that PARTIAL P***AGE, COMPLETELY OUT OF CONTEXT?

Heb 1:1-4
1 God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, 2 in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world. 3 And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, 4 having become as much better than the angels, as He has inherited a more excellent name than they.
NASU

Heb 1:3-4
3 He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, 4 having become as much superior to angels as the name he has inherited is more excellent than theirs.
ESV

I checked at least a half-dozen OTHER good translations, and THEY ALL disagree with your mediocre translation's rendering.

You must have looked pretty hard to find that poor translation. It doesn't fit the GREEK at all. In the Greek, it is literaly the 'character of his person,' NOT an exact ANYTHING!

Aaah, but then if that is ALL you can come up with. . .

STILL no 'like father, like son pretending that someone OTHER THAN YOURSELF thinks God the Father and Jesus are criminals. . .SUCH IGNORANCE!!!!!!

Christian

05-26-2017, 06:48 AM

Maybe the whole issue is trivial, if it's just a matter of Trinitarians believing that 1/3 of God has a body, and LDS believing that 2/3 of God have bodies. What's the big deal about a mere fraction?

Don't the lds believe that Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are 3 DIFFERENT AND DISTINCT gods, only TWO of which have bodies, but ALL THREE OF WHICH are 'true gods' just like THEY CAN BECOME 'if they are good enough to be exalted to godhood'????

Of course, THEIR god is credited with 'begetting' THEIR 'jesus' and THEIR 'satan' as 'spirit brothers. . .'

SAD, isn't it? Their demons and their gods are close relatives!

dberrie2000

05-27-2017, 04:43 AM

once again,,,Jesus has two totally different natures.

Jesus is both God and man. Both 100% God Almighty, and 100% human. In his nature as God, Jesus is pure spirit. In his nature as man he is flesh and bone. understand now?

I understand there is an obvious contradiction:

Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post But will God really dwell on earth? The heavens, even the highest heaven, cannot contain you. How much less this temple I have built!

God is spirit, and a spirit does not have flesh and bones.

alanmolstad

05-27-2017, 04:49 AM

I understand there is an obvious contradiction:

This is how he who by his very nature simply can't die was able to give his life to save us.

dberrie2000

05-27-2017, 04:52 AM

This is how he who by his very nature simply can't die was able to give his life to save us.

Another contradiction.

Erundur

06-07-2017, 01:43 PM

Don't the lds believe that Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are 3 DIFFERENT AND DISTINCT gods
No. We believe that the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are 3 DIFFERENT AND DISTINCT persons who are one God (not one being with three personalities).

Christian

06-08-2017, 11:17 AM

Why do you think that no other Christian church that I am aware of except the FLDS believe that God the Father has a body of flesh and bones and was a man on another planet?

FLDS, like the other 150 or so lds religions is NOT a Christian church by ANY rational description. It has NOTHING TO DO WITH CHRIST'S ORIGINAL CHURCH which has existed alive and well for about 2,000 years now.

dberrie2000

06-09-2017, 04:42 AM

FLDS, like the other 150 or so lds religions is NOT a Christian church by ANY rational description. It has NOTHING TO DO WITH CHRIST'S ORIGINAL CHURCH which has existed alive and well for about 2,000 years now.

If it was alive and well--then why the need for a Reformation--where numerous new denominations were created with a different theology?

And no one has answered the question--does God have a resurrected body of flesh and bones?

Luke 24:39---King James Version (KJV)
39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

alanmolstad

06-09-2017, 05:13 AM

And no one has answered the question--does God have a resurrected body of flesh and bones?

.[/B]

I have written many times on the two natures of Jesus.

but as it's not what you want to hear...

Christian

06-10-2017, 05:11 PM

Anyone got some Biblical Proof that it's impossible for God to have a body?

John 4:24
24 God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth."
NKJV

Luke 24:39
39 Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have."
NKJV

WHAT would you propose His 'body' would be made of IF NOT FLESH OR BONES? Green Jello?

alanmolstad

06-18-2017, 07:48 PM

Christian

06-19-2017, 06:38 AM

No. We believe that the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are 3 DIFFERENT AND DISTINCT persons who are one God (not one being with three personalities).

Self-contradiction. You don't believe in one 'being' (meaning God) with 3 persons, but you CLAIM you believe they are 3 different 'persons' who are one God.

You are contradicting yourself. So you believe they are separate 'persons,' but not separate 'persons.' Talk about convoluted and confusing religion!

AND

Your religion tells you that demons and Jesus are close relatives (spirit-brothers)
What a load of manure!

Erundur

06-19-2017, 09:02 AM

You are contradicting yourself. So you believe they are separate 'persons,' but not separate 'persons.'
That is not my belief. Since you are merely addressing a straw man, the LDS position stands unrefuted.

Talk about convoluted and confusing religion!
If you want to talk about Protestantism, take it to the appropriate forum.

Christian

06-19-2017, 09:49 AM

Originally Posted by Christian View Post
You are contradicting yourself. So you believe they are separate 'persons,' but not separate 'persons.'

That is not my belief. Since you are merely addressing a straw man, the LDS position stands unrefuted.

Then why did you post it? YOU SAID it.

YOU SAID:

No. We believe that the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are 3 DIFFERENT AND DISTINCT persons who are one God (not one being with three personalities).

Did you lie?

Talk about convoluted and confusing religion!

If you want to talk about Protestantism, take it to the appropriate forum.

I was quoting you back to you. IF you had tracked the conversation a little better, YOU WOULD KNOW I was referring to YOUR false religion. Are you NOW trying to claim that YOU ARE A PROTESTANT?

You should try to TRACK a little better.

Christian

06-19-2017, 10:03 AM

knox posted:

Amen to all that. Well said. I wonder if the other implication in that p***age, is that just as Jesus didn't think it robbery to be equal with His Father, we should not think it robbery to want to become like Jesus.

Jesus is (and was) GOD. You and I are not. We cannot BE God. . .no matter HOW MANY 'manmade ordinances' we try to follow. You are simply out of luck.

What the did the Father die for and what was the purpose for his early resurrection ahead of all of us carnalized spirit babies?

The only info we have in the Bible on that, is Jesus saying that He only did what He saw His Father do

FALSE CLAIM. The TRUTH is that He did ALL THAT THE FATHER TOLD HIM TO DO. His Father didn't walk on water, feed the 5,000, or die on the cross for our sins. ONLY JESUS DID those things.

and the Bible verse that says that Jesus is like His Father in every way, which would mean that the Father is like Jesus in every way.

Out of context? OF COURSE you do not include chapter or verse so we can look for ourselves. . .

THAT figures. . .you can't produce it!

Erundur

06-19-2017, 01:16 PM

I was quoting you back to you.
False. I have never said they are separate persons but not separate persons. If I had, you'd be able to link to the post where I said that, but you can't, because I didn't.

The LDS position stands unrefuted.

alanmolstad

06-19-2017, 08:12 PM

dberrie2000

07-28-2017, 11:23 AM

the correct answer is that within the nature of the One true God there are three divine persons.
Each is distinct from the other,,,each is called "God" yet there are not three gods but only the one God.

The Father is God
The Son is God
The Spirit is God.

Three in union, a tri-union,, a tri-unity or we say a "trinity"

Could you give us a Biblical NT scripture which specifically connects all three persons to the "one God"?

1 Corinthians 8:6---King James Version (KJV)
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

1 Timothy 2:5--King James Version (KJV)
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Ephesians 4:4-6--King James Version (KJV)
4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

1 Peter 1:3--King James Version (KJV)
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

John 17:3---King James Version (KJV)
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

alanmolstad

07-28-2017, 11:39 AM

Could you give us a Biblical NT scripture which specifically connects all three persons to the "one God"?

.
I can quote answers from the Bible to questions and issues that the Bible does address only.

There are Bible verses that support the idea that Jesus is a man
There are Bible verses that support that Jesus is God

There is support in the Bible to prove that the father is God

There is support in the Bible to prove that the Holy Spirit is God

And there is support in the Bible to prove that they are not 3 gods, but rather there is only the One God....

Jesus is = with God
The father is = with God
The Holy Spirit is = with God.

So all 3 are equal to the same thing (God)

Thus all 3 are equal with each other too!

If you want a verse that shows us that the Son is God, or the father is God, or the Spirit is God?.......go look it up.
I have posted such verses here time and time again....you know that as well as I do....

so why ask me?

alanmolstad

07-28-2017, 11:44 AM

let me know if there is something I have said that you want me to have a 2nd look at?

But the truth is that you have already received more than enough "verses" to know that every word I have posted on this forum and what Im saying is found in the Bible,
that Im not making any up,
and that what the Bible is teaching stands totally against with what the world of the CULTS is teaching their followers.

Look, you have to decide for yourself what you are going to do with the answers I have given you....

Phoenix

08-12-2017, 10:13 PM

every word I have posted on this forum is found in the Bible,
that Im not making any up,...

i find those claims hard to believe. i bet i could find at least one word you have posted in this forum, that is NOT found in the bible.

alanmolstad

08-12-2017, 10:18 PM

I welcome your challenge ....

alanmolstad

08-13-2017, 05:11 AM

I would invite anyone to glance at anything I have posted on our forum over the years and if you have a question on something?...or would like me to support something I have said with supporting scriptures? ... then just let me know and I will be happy to show you where what I teach is found.

If there are things I have said about historical figures? ...and you would like to see where I learned about them from and my source?....just ask

In other words, none of this is just my ideas, I don't make anything up on my own.

MickeyS

08-13-2017, 02:48 PM

I welcome your challenge ....

"Trinity" is not found in the Bible

Christian

08-13-2017, 04:40 PM

Why do you think that no other Christian church that I am aware of except the FLDS believe that God the Father has a body of flesh and bones and was a man on another planet?

I believe the bulk of the other 'latter day saints' (almost all of the 150+ different kinds believe that God the Father has a physical body of flesh and bones also.

BIBLICAL proof it is NOT so:

John 4:24
24 God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth."
NKJV

Luke 24:38-39
"Why are you troubled? And why do doubts arise in your hearts? 39 Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have."
NKJV

The mormons and other cults 'cherry-pick' verses OUT OF CONTEXT from the Bible to try to 'prove' their points. This theory of joey smith's is a goo example of that.

Christian

08-13-2017, 04:42 PM

Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
This is how he who by his very nature simply can't die was able to give his life to save us.

Another contradiction.

Except that Jesus Christ (the REAL ONE) DID DIE and was resurrected (returned to life). Even the mormon cult agrees with that, doesn't it?

alanmolstad

08-14-2017, 04:21 PM

I believe the bulk of the other 'latter day saints' (almost all of the 150+ different kinds believe that God the Father has a physical body of flesh and bones also.

BIBLICAL proof it is NOT so:

John 4:24
24 God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth."
NKJV

Luke 24:38-39
"Why are you troubled? And why do doubts arise in your hearts? 39 Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have."
NKJV

The mormons and other cults 'cherry-pick' verses OUT OF CONTEXT from the Bible to try to 'prove' their points. This theory of joey smith's is a goo example of that.

very good post!

alanmolstad

08-15-2017, 04:32 AM

i find those claims hard to believe. i bet i could find at least one word you have posted in this forum, that is NOT found in the bible.

Go over any teaching I have said, and if you want to know where it is found in the Bible just let me know...
Now Im sure someone might object and say - (insert child's voice here) - "But Alan you used the word "Equality" one time in a post and that word is not found in the King James!"....and my response is to point out that while the Bible NT is written mostly in Greek, and I dont speak Greek, but what i do teach about the Bible is from the same teachings given us all in the Bible.
Therefore such objections are a moot point.

a few years ago we had on this forum a nice Mormon lady....
I enjoyed sparing with her, I never asked her age but I got the feeling she was well older that most other members.
I remember how she would object to any suggestion that Smith had other wives.
I remember how she would strongly attack anyone who tried to slip into the conversation that Smith used to sneak over to the homes of men he had sent on missions, to spend time with their wives.

She said that all such things were untrue lies, and were invented just to make Smith look like a pervert to people.

Then the official teaching on Smith's sexual interest in other women started to change.
I remember at the time that the nice Mormon lady was arguing with some Christians here on this forum , when one of the Christians posted some type of thing taken from some type of Mormon newspaper (could have been a website?) that hinted that many Mormons were already aware of Smith's other wives, and that this was not a big deal.

anyway, the nice Mormon lady had really not much to say on the issue ...

I do remember that the nice Mormon lady posted a bit ;later that the posted link did not come from the official Mormon leadership, and then she tried to change the topic.

I never heard much out of her for a while then....

I think it was a few weeks later she tried to post a new comment on a totally unrelated topic but another member in response again brought up the changed teachings on Smith's wives.

And after that the nice Mormon lady was not seen posting here again.... :(

I was not a MOD back then so I had no way to know if she registered under a new name or simply dropped out of the forum?

It must have been a hard issue for her to overcome?
She had defended the marriage of Smith to his one wife very hard for years that I knew her, and had likely done the same in her real life many more times.
She had once posted that she would never be a member of a religion that was startedm by someone who acted the way same Christians were accusing Smith of acting.

How would a person go from that to then needing to not only accept that Smith was like that, but then turning around and pretending that it did not matter to you now???

It mattered to her!