What are the requirements to be a Christian? [Archive] - Page 3

neverending

07-27-2011, 07:57 AM

(if you're a Christian, then regardless how many gods and lords there are, and regardless where they are--on Earth, or up in heaven--to you there is only one God (Jesus' Father) and to you there is only one Lord (Jesus).

Thanks.

LDS doctrine is that there never was a time when there were not gods--there never was an initial "big bang" that started the race of spirit-based beings that we are part of.

Very good. Not just a lord: To LDS, Jesus is our Lord partly because He led the forces of good against those of Lucifer in the war in heaven, partly because of His atonement and death for us making Him our Savior, and partly because His destiny is to rule over this planet during the millennium, etc. But He is also the glorified, only begotten Son of God in whom there is no sin and in whom all of His Father's virtues are evident, which makes Jesus a God--just not "the greatest." Jesus said "My Father is greater than I."

I am happy to answer any other questions from you, since you seem sincere and honest and perceptive.

Dear Hopeful,
You made a point here but the wrong one because you do err not understanding what the scriptures teach. When Jesus said that he was not greater than the Father, it was due to the fact that he layed down his glory in order to come to earth and take on a physical body...that is what he meant in that p***age but you want to make it something it isn't and never was meant to be.
There is ONLY ONE GOD! Mormonism wants to accept the idea that there are many and you will become one someday by living ALL the laws and ordinances of your religion. The flaw with that idea is, God has told us in Isaiah that He knows of no other gods. If this is so, than how can there be others and why wouldn't God know of them? If God progressed to being a God, is there not a god whom he must worship too? See, this is only becoming tiresome to think about. To have eternal increase that ALL Mormons wish to attain, means being a god, having many wives, having sex with those wives so they can bear many, many spirit babies to populate the world you will create. Where in the Bible does it teach eternal increase? This is the very subject I argued over with my father when I was 14. I never accepted that doctrine and it began my journey of doubting JS as well.
As I've shared with you and hopefully in a respectful manner, I still keep you in my prayers for wisdom and for the Holy Spirit to open your eyes to God's truths. May today be that day. God loves you, He is with you every where you go.

jdjhere

07-27-2011, 08:16 AM

HopefulSaint:
I dont want to have any misunderstandings here so this is how it is for me
I am a sincere seeker of Truth. I am a born again Christian thanks to what Jesus Christ did for me on the cross and NOTHING that I have done or can do. I believe I have found all the Truth I will ever need in Christ alone and it burns in my heart constantly. HE BOUGHT ME by his sacrificial love and I cannot repay Him so I try to obey Him. I dont make it all the time so I ask for forgiveness. I ask you questions because I want your beliefs to be out there in writing so we can all see it and understand it. I disagree with it to my very core but respect the right for you to believe it. Thank God we live in the United States where there IS freedom to believe what you want. You are a person that Jesus Christ died for as much as He died for me or anyone else here and He loved you enough that if you were the only person needing to be saved He would have died for just you. You also seem like a sincere person seeking Truth but your belief about Jesus Christ's iden***y is so far from mine that we could (probably) never agree on many things because I do not believe you have identified Him correctly. WHO IS HE??? He is the King of ALL Kings, Lord of ALL Lords, the Alpha and Omega, Creator of ALL things (US), died for US... yet as me being a gentile you tell me He is NOT my God and only the Father is?? Thats strange language. I can only say if you have a burning in the bosom I have a burning in my Heart constantly that Jesus isJEHOVAH God, the Son, MY Savior and the ONLY God with which I will have to do because I believe He IS the ONLY God. So, I ask questions to understand your beliefs and because I respect you as a person and my God loves you. I dont NEED Joseph Smith to tell me I can enter Heaven because Jesus is the Gate and NO ONE comes to the Father but by Him, not Joseph. I hope this clears up my position a little. I try to be kind and ask questions to learn what you believe, that is all, and I do not mean to offend you but my belief is SO strong I KNOW it is the Truth so if it offends you, so be it.

jdjhere

07-27-2011, 08:42 AM

Websters Definition of a polytheist:

belief in or worship of more than one god

Since you believe there is more than one God, by Websters definition, you are a polytheist and I am a monotheist. This causes BIG issues for us because both cannot be true simultaneously.

HopefulSaint

07-27-2011, 10:09 AM

Websters Definition of a polytheist:

belief in or worship of more than one god

Since you believe there is more than one God, by Websters definition, you are a polytheist

That much is accurate. I am a polytheist like Jesus was, as quoted in the Bible.
A monolatrist, to be more precise.

I can't help it if Jesus claimed to be the Son of the Only True God. I didn't write the Bible. I just believe what I read there.

and I am a monotheist.
I suppose you are in a sense, but I don't know that the Jews of the world would call you a monotheist. They claim to be monotheists.
I wonder if they would call you a Tritheist. Seems to me from the explanations I get from avowed Trinitarians, that if they are really monotheists, then they are of the Modalist variety.

If that offends you, then so be it.

Billyray

07-27-2011, 10:27 AM

I don't know that the Jews of the world would call you a monotheist.
Are the Jews the standard for what is right and what is wrong?

HopefulSaint

07-27-2011, 12:03 PM

Are the Jews the standard for what is right and what is wrong?

I dunno--are mainstream, "traditional" Christians the standard for the correct definition of Trinitarianism ?

Billyray

07-27-2011, 12:05 PM

I dunno-
You are the one who used the Jews as the standard. Does what they say equate with truth?

HopefulSaint

07-27-2011, 12:20 PM

You are the one who used the Jews as the standard. Does what they say equate with truth?

They just seem to have a more established, longer record of being monotheists and on possessing the Tanakh to back them up, so their opinion of what is and isn't monotheism might deserve some attention. They are no more likely to take a Trinitarian's word as more authoritative then an Evangelical is to take a Mormon's word as being more authoritative regarding what is and isn't Christian theology.

Billyray

07-27-2011, 01:34 PM

They just seem to have a more established, longer record of being monotheists and on possessing the Tanakh to back them up, so their opinion of what is and isn't monotheism might deserve some attention.
Using this rationale you should also support their view of the Messiah.

jdjhere

07-27-2011, 01:50 PM

HopefulSaint- where in Scripture in the Bible do you look to support this? Thanks

HopefulSaint said: "I am a polytheist like Jesus was, as quoted in the Bible."

HopefulSaint

07-27-2011, 02:07 PM

Using this rationale you should also support their view of the Messiah.

That would be a valid point, except that I prefer to take Jesus' word for it regarding both whether I should be a monolatrist, and regarding who I should believe the Messiah is. :)

Billyray

07-27-2011, 02:09 PM

. . .I should be a monolatrist. . .
Monolatrism or monolatry (Greek: μόνος (monos) = single, and λατρεία (latreia) = worship) is the recognition of the existence of many gods, but with the consistent worship of only one deity. (Wikipedia)

Which God do you worship? The Father only?

HopefulSaint

07-27-2011, 02:13 PM

HopefulSaint- where in Scripture in the Bible do you look to support this? Thanks

HopefulSaint said: "I am a polytheist like Jesus was, as quoted in the Bible."

Well, the Bible says that Jesus is deity thanks to His Virgin Birth and His allusions to being Yahweh--and it also quotes Jesus saying that His Father is the Only True God. Then there are the parts that say or at least imply that the Holy Spirit also qualifies as deity. Put those together, and you can arrive at the monolatrist position that the "Trinity" consists of the Only True God (of Christians) and two other deities who are subservient to Him, with all 3 being united in the same way that faithful Christians hope to be ultimately united.

Do you want the exact Bible verses that I am thinking of, or is that good enough?

Billyray

07-27-2011, 02:26 PM

. . .Father is the Only True God. . .

Can any of the other gods that you believe in be true?

HopefulSaint

07-27-2011, 03:14 PM

Can any of the other gods that you believe in be true?

You mean like God the Son, or God the Holy Spirit? Sure, they can be and are true deities, "But for us, there is one God (Jesus' Father)..." to quote Paul.

IMO, there are Bible verses that refer to the Father as "the highest." Jesus never refers to Himself with that ***le, to my knowledge, so again, I prefer to trust what He said on the issue, to the extent that He taught theology, which was not a lot, relatively speaking.

HopefulSaint

07-27-2011, 03:15 PM

Monolatrism or monolatry (Greek: μόνος (monos) = single, and λατρεία (latreia) = worship) is the recognition of the existence of many gods, but with the consistent worship of only one deity. (Wikipedia)

Which God do you worship? The Father only?

I consistently worship the Person of the Father as my Creator. It is to Him that I pray, in the name of His Son, Jesus Christ.

James Banta

07-27-2011, 04:04 PM

I consistently worship the Person of the Father as my Creator. It is to Him that I pray, in the name of His Son, Jesus Christ.

And to do so you ignore what the Bible says God is.. Yes it teaches that the Father is God (John 20:17). The Bible also says that Jesus is God (John 1:1). And it teaches that the Holy Spirit is God (Acts 5:3-4).. Does that make three Gods? NO the same being that is called God here confirmed the teaching of Moses that the Lord our GOD is one Lord (Mark 12:29).. Mormonism just disregards this and says I don't believe that because they can't understand the doctrine of the trinity. Is our understanding required before a doctrine in true? I have explained this so that it can be understood and still you deny that anyone had explained it logically.. It is time you move on into one of mormonism other heresies and leave the trinity along as a fact supported in the Bible.. IHS jim

Billyray

07-27-2011, 05:30 PM

IMO, there are Bible verses that refer to the Father as "the highest."
But the verse that YOU quoted said ONLY true God, not highest.

Billyray

07-27-2011, 05:31 PM

I consistently worship the Person of the Father as my Creator.
So you never worship the Son?

HopefulSaint

07-27-2011, 11:05 PM

But the verse that YOU quoted said ONLY true God, not highest.
That is quite correct. John 17:3 quotes Jesus saying that it's His Father who is the only true God. It's verses like:

Mark 5:7 "And cried with a loud voice, and said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of the most high God?"

that say that His Father is the highest God.

Billyray

07-28-2011, 07:13 AM

That is quite correct. John 17:3 quotes Jesus saying that it's His Father who is the only true God. It's verses like:

Mark 5:7 "And cried with a loud voice, and said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of the most high God?"

that say that His Father is the highest God.
So the Father is not the ONLY true God like you said before because according to you there are many true gods.

HopefulSaint

07-28-2011, 09:41 AM

So the Father is not the ONLY true God like you said before because according to you there are many true gods.

I am only quoting from the Bible. I can't help it if it says that Jesus' Father is the only true God and the most high God. I believe the Bible BOTH where it says that Jesus is deity and the Son of deity, AND where it says that Jesus' Father--a different person than Jesus--is deity and the most high deity. If you have doubts about whether the Bible, or the people it quotes, is accurate, I really can't help that either, except to refer you to defenses of the Bible that other people have written. Sorry.

Billyray

07-28-2011, 10:40 AM

I can't help it if it says that Jesus' Father is the only true God and the most high God.
But you can help your beliefs. Have you ever considered that your belief that their are multiple gods is false?

HopefulSaint

07-28-2011, 11:36 AM

But you can help your beliefs. Have you ever considered that your belief that their are multiple gods is false?

I have considered the possibility that the Bible, or the people it quotes, (or both) is wrong on this issue, yes, but so far I continue to believe that both are correct on this issue.

Billyray

07-28-2011, 11:53 AM

I have considered the possibility that the Bible, or the people it quotes, (or both) is wrong on this issue, yes, but so far I continue to believe that both are correct on this issue.

But if it is correct then you are incorrect.

HopefulSaint

07-28-2011, 11:55 AM

neverending

07-28-2011, 12:22 PM

James Banta

07-28-2011, 12:36 PM

I am only quoting from the Bible. I can't help it if it says that Jesus' Father is the only true God and the most high God. I believe the Bible BOTH where it says that Jesus is deity and the Son of deity, AND where it says that Jesus' Father--a different person than Jesus--is deity and the most high deity. If you have doubts about whether the Bible, or the people it quotes, is accurate, I really can't help that either, except to refer you to defenses of the Bible that other people have written. Sorry.

I am not arguing that the Father is not the only true God.. What I am trying to get you to see is that the Bible also says Jesus is God, and the Holy Spirit is God.. Each of these Persons can rightly be called the only true God.. But unlike you who seem to want to limit Godhood to the Father alone and deny the scriptures that says Jesus is God, and other p***ages that teach that the Holy Spirit is God, and Joseph Smith that said that the Bible was wrong in the verse you quote and that there are three Gods. I believe that Bible is the truth and that there is one true God who is the Persons of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit..

And you say I deny the scripture.. I don't deny the p***age you quoted. Neither do I deny the teaching of the Holy Spirit through the Apostle John that taught that:

John 1:1, 14
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
And the Holy Spirit through the disciple of Jesus, Luke, taught that:

Acts 5:3-4
But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?
Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.
Surely you aren't calling Jesus and the Holy Spirit false Gods? But still there are the p***ages that say that there is one God:
Deut 6:4
Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD
And Jesus confirmed that teaching given by God through the Apostle Peter thru Mark:

Mark 12:29
And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord
Yes there is one God, and three Persons all called God in Scripture.. In short the doctrine of the Trinity right there in plain sight.. And yet you allow one scripture that does teach true doctrine, but has been misused by you in a very false interpretation to try to prove your preconceived concept of some personal private interpretation of scripture. Either see the scripture as a whole all of it true or reject it as totally false there is no half way.. IHS jim

HopefulSaint

07-28-2011, 12:42 PM

Dear Hopeful,
I can certainly see how this would be confusing for you or anyone who is searching for answers. May I just remind you that while Jesus Christ was walking the earth, he took on a mortal body and by doing that, he gave up his glory, which meant he took on flesh but it did not make him give up his divinity. Christ was full of grace and truth but because of his love for mankind, he put aside his glory...he still had it, he just layed it aside for the time he was walking among men. Hoped this helped.

Thanks, that was well said and I think I agree with all of it. The Bible supports it all as far as I could tell. And, it doesn't refute my Bible-based beliefs in the Father as deity, and in Jesus as the only-begotten Son of that deity.

So again, thanks.

HopefulSaint

07-28-2011, 01:00 PM

I am not arguing that the Father is not the only true God.
that is good.

What I am trying to get you to see is that the Bible also says Jesus is God, and the Holy Spirit is God..
yes indeed. you are batting 1000 so far, imo.

Each of these Persons can rightly be called the only true God..
I don't know about that statement. I don't recall seeing any Bible verse that says that each of the three persons is, singly, the only true God. The only New Testament verses I am aware of, declare that only the Person of the Father has the ***le of the only true God.

But if you know of a verse that I am unaware of, that supports the "biblicalness" of your ***ertion, then now is your chance to quote it.

But unlike you who seem to want to limit Godhood to the Father alone and deny the scriptures that says Jesus is God
false

I believe that Bible is the truth and that there is one true God who is the Persons of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit..
You can believe that, but as far as I know, there are verses teaching that each of the Persons is deity, and there are verses teaching that all 3 of them, together, are "one God" (metaphorically speaking).

But I am unaware of any verse that denies the Person of the Father the distinction of being the Only True God. Again, if you have such a verse in mind, I would be happy to look at it as soon as you quote it.

And you say I deny the scripture.
If I have said that you deny a scripture that you obviously don't deny, then I apologize.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Yep, true. It just doesn't say that Jesus (who is "The Logos" being referred to here) is the Only True God. In fact, it's Jesus Himself who ***erts that it's His Father--another of the 3 Persons--who is the Only True God. That is clear, obvious, and unmistakable, IMO.

Surely you aren't calling Jesus and the Holy Spirit false Gods?
You are exactly right--surely I am not doing that, as anyone who has read my posts should realize.

Yes there is one God, and three Persons all called God in Scripture..
Yes, and there are many people in Christendom, yet the Bible says that many people spoke with one voice. I don't think that should be taken literally.
Apparently, it's possible to say that many individuals are one, without meaning that they are literally one being.

And yet you allow one scripture that does teach true doctrine, but has been misused by you in a very false interpretation to try to prove your preconceived concept of some personal private interpretation of scripture.
If the Bible teaches that each of the 3 Persons is deity, but it states that only one of those 3 is the Only True Deity, I prefer to believe both of those teachings.

Either see the scripture as a whole all of it true or reject it as totally false there is no half way..
I think that is what I am doing: Seeing both teachings as a whole. I certainly don't want to reject both teachings--the teaching that each of the Persons is deity, and the teaching that one of them is the "Most High God" and the "Only True God."

HopefulSaint

07-28-2011, 01:15 PM

Here is one more thing you might want to consider:

If you are right about each of the 3 Persons being the Only True God or the Most High God, then what happens if the Bible teaches that Jesus is the SON of the Most High God?

Your belief leads to the strange conclusion that Jesus is the Son of Himself...if Jesus really is the Most High or Only True God.

And even if you believe that the Trinity, as a conglomerate of 3, cons***utes the Most High God, then the teaching that Jesus is the Son of the Most High God leads again to a strange conclusion: That Jesus is the Son of the Trinity--a Trinity that includes Jesus Himself, of course.

Both of those conclusions (that Jesus is the Son of Himself, and that Jesus is the Son of all 3 Persons) cause huge problems for your belief that each Person in the Trinity is the Most High or Only True God.

In fact, I think it creates an insurmountable problem for your belief.

James Banta

07-28-2011, 02:10 PM

[HopefulSaint;92406]Here is one more thing you might want to consider:

If you are right about each of the 3 Persons being the Only True God or the Most High God, then what happens if the Bible teaches that Jesus is the SON of the Most High God?

I am ready to believe what the Bible teaches on the subject are you?

Matthew 1:15-18
Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.
Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a public example, was minded to put her away privily.
But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.
It would seem that the Holy Spirit was the person of God that created within Mary the flesh of the Lord Jesus.. Since the Holy Spirit is 100% God that would make Jesus the Son of the most high God..

Your belief leads to the strange conclusion that Jesus is the Son of Himself...if Jesus really is the Most High or Only True God.

Again you deny what we have been teaching about the nature of God.. He is not some three headed concoction made up in the Minds of some man.. It is Biblical that there is One God and that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit is that one God.. Three separate and distinct Persons that are the one God.. The flesh of Jesus is the creation of the Holy Spirit Directly in the womb of Mary!

And even if you believe that the Trinity, as a conglomerate of 3, cons***utes the Most High God, then the teaching that Jesus is the Son of the Most High God leads again to a strange conclusion: That Jesus is the Son of the Trinity--a Trinity that includes Jesus Himself, of course.

Yes, I agree.. Jesus is always God and was always with God. So was there as a Spiritual Being at creation of His flesh, YES. Still it was the Person of the Holy Spirit that formulated that work.. Just at it is His duty to convict of sin (John 16:8), and bring a sinner to the cross to be saved (John 15:26)..

Both of those conclusions (that Jesus is the Son of Himself, and that Jesus is the Son of all 3 Persons) cause huge problems for your belief that each Person in the Trinity is the Most High or Only True God.
In fact, I think it creates an insurmountable problem for your belief.

Because of the facts shown within the Bible your invention here is NOT an insurmountable problem in Christian doctrine.. It is totally explained in the Bible as it teaches that Mary was found to be with Child of the Holy Spirit.. A separate Person from the Son, just the same God.. IHS jim

HopefulSaint

07-28-2011, 03:47 PM

A pretty good try at defending your position, James, I admit.

Except IMO it might be presumptuous to conclude, from that proof text, that Jesus is the Son of the Holy Spirit. If Jesus (The Person of the Son) is the Son of the Person of the Holy Spirit instead of the Person of the Father, it throws a huge monkey wrench into all those times Jesus was talking about the Person of the Father or praying to the Person of the Father. Your reasoning leads to either:

1. the Person of the Father is also the Person of the Holy Spirit, which is basically Modalism;

2. Jesus was mistaken when He said that it's the Person of the Father who was Jesus' Father, and Jesus was referring to the Holy Ghost when He told Mary "I go to your Father and My Father, your God and My God."

3. Or the Bible is just misquoting Jesus when it claims He made the statements in Option 2.

Let's look at your proof text in a variety of Bibles:

Matthew 1:15-18 says, in the CEB version that "she became pregnant by the Holy Spirit."

CEV: "she learned that she was going to have a baby by God's Holy Spirit."

ESV: "she was found to be with child from the Holy Spirit."

God's Word Translation: "Mary realized that she was pregnant by the Holy Spirit."

HCSB: "it was discovered before they came together that she was pregnant by the Holy Spirit."

NCV: "she learned she was pregnant by the power of the Holy Spirit."

NIRV: "it became clear that she was going to have a baby. She became pregnant by the power of the Holy Spirit."

NIV: "she was found to be pregnant through the Holy Spirit.

NLT: "she became pregnant through the power of the Holy Spirit."

TNIV: "she was found to be pregnant through the Holy Spirit."

YLT: "she was found to have conceived from the Holy Spirit,"

The Bibles that say that Mary became pregnant through the POWER of the Holy Spirit leave open the possibility that the Holy Spirit is not Jesus' Father, but instead is just the source of the POWER through which Jesus' real Father (the Person of the Father) caused Mary to be pregnant.

Some of the other Bibles (like NCV) appear to be saying that it was by the power of the Holy Spirit that Mary LEARNED she was pregnant--the Holy Spirit was not Jesus' Father, but rather the means by which Mary knew she was pregnant with God's own Son.

Just something to think about.

Billyray

07-28-2011, 05:55 PM

I can't help it if it says that Jesus' Father is the only true God and the most high God.
But from your perspective this is false because the Father can't possibly be the ONLY true God unless you are willing to admit that the Son and the HG are not true Gods.

HopefulSaint

07-29-2011, 07:45 AM

But from your perspective this is false because the Father can't possibly be the ONLY true God unless you are willing to admit that the Son and the HG are not true Gods.

If you are trying to say that one part of the Bible contradicts another part in this case, I do not agree with you. I believe both parts to be true, as I said:

Jesus' claim that His Father is the only true God is accurate as far as Christians are concerned; and Jesus, as the only begotten and firstborn and most beloved Son of God, is a deity, too, and as such is definitely not a false god.

If you have a problem reconciling those 2 Biblical teachings, my suggestion would be to study LDS theology and see how LDS doctrine manages to reconcile them.

Billyray

07-29-2011, 09:28 AM

If you are trying to say that one part of the Bible contradicts another part in this case, I do not agree with you.

I am not saying that it contradicts at all. I am saying using YOUR theology there is a conflict because you believe in multiple gods.

Billyray

07-29-2011, 09:30 AM

If you have a problem reconciling those 2 Biblical teachings, my suggestion would be to study LDS theology and see how LDS doctrine manages to reconcile them.
I was born and raised in the LDS church so I know that they can't be reconciled and that is why I am asking you about it.

HopefulSaint

07-29-2011, 03:21 PM

I am not saying that it contradicts at all. I am saying using YOUR theology there is a conflict because you believe in multiple gods.

But LDS doctrine reconciles the two Bible teachings: The teaching that each of the three separate (to use James Banta's term) Persons is deity, and the teaching that the Person of the Father is the Only True God as far as Christians are concerned.

That's what makes LDS theology so appealing--it makes sense of potentially difficult or cryptic Bible p***ages.

Billyray

07-29-2011, 04:09 PM

But LDS doctrine reconciles the two Bible teachings:
Not really. If the Father is the ONLY true God. Then you have to believe the the Son and the HG are false gods by definition.

neverending

07-30-2011, 07:35 AM

But LDS doctrine reconciles the two Bible teachings: The teaching that each of the three separate (to use James Banta's term) Persons is deity, and the teaching that the Person of the Father is the Only True God as far as Christians are concerned.

That's what makes LDS theology so appealing--it makes sense of potentially difficult or cryptic Bible p***ages.

Dear Hopeful,
Thank you for mentioning my husband in this post and of course I agree with what he's told you. One of the problems Hopeful is that our finite minds can never comprehend the true nature of the Godhead. There are not 3 gods as Mormonism would have people believe. The Trinity is not an easy concept but one that must be accepted.

The word Trinity is not found in the Bible. But, by the late second century it was being used by the church to describe a biblical concept—literally, tri-unity, or “three in one.”

This does not mean three Gods … though Christians have been accused of being polytheists by other world religions. Instead Christians have a unique view of God, one that comes about because they believe both the Old and New Testaments.

There are six basic biblical steps to understanding the Trinity:

1. There is one God. (Deuteronomy 6:4)

Deuteronomy 6:4 is one of the most important verses to the Jews, who believe in one God. It is known as the Shema: “Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one!”

Here is the Hebrew: Shema Yisrael: Yahweh Elochenu Yahweh Echad. The Hebrew language has two words that are translated “one”—Yachid and Echad. Yachid means an absolute one. Echad refers to a united one. Echad is the word used of God in the Old Testament—God is a united one.

2. The Father is God. (2 Peter 1:17)

3. The Son is God. (John 8:58)

4. The Holy Spirit is God. (Acts 5:3-4)

5. Father, Son and Holy Spirit are distinct individuals. (John 14:26)

6. Therefore, there are three Persons in the one Godhead

Since the Trinity is completely unique, no ****ogy really fits. The Trinity is not really “like” anything.

But attempts have been made. The best ****ogies do not look at the Trinity as three parts that make up a whole, like these examples:

• Shamrock: Saint Patrick, who spread the Gospel in Ireland, used a three-leafed clover.

• Egg: Another common one—eggshell, egg white and yolk.

• H2O: The three phases of H2O—water, ice, steam—are better as an ****ogy but also fall short since any given temperature produces only one of these at a time. That picture leads to a false doctrine that says the Trinity is really only one person who takes on one of three modes at any given time. This belief is problematic for those who hold it: Just what was going on in the Garden of Gethsemane when Jesus was praying to the Father? Was He talking to himself?

The best illustration I have seen comes from C.S. Lewis:

• The three dimensions of space: Length, width and height. All coincide in the same place, yet are distinct.

My James has used this ****ogy many times to try and explain the Trinity and when one truly takes the time to think about it, it makes perfect sense. I so hope this has helped you.

TheSword99

07-30-2011, 07:44 AM

Dear Hopeful,
Thank you for mentioning my husband in this post and of course I agree with what he's told you. One of the problems Hopeful is that our finite minds can never comprehend the true nature of the Godhead. There are not 3 gods as Mormonism would have people believe. The Trinity is not an easy concept but one that must be accepted.

The word Trinity is not found in the Bible. But, by the late second century it was being used by the church to describe a biblical concept—literally, tri-unity, or “three in one.”

This does not mean three Gods … though Christians have been accused of being polytheists by other world religions. Instead Christians have a unique view of God, one that comes about because they believe both the Old and New Testaments.

There are six basic biblical steps to understanding the Trinity:

1. There is one God. (Deuteronomy 6:4)

Deuteronomy 6:4 is one of the most important verses to the Jews, who believe in one God. It is known as the Shema: “Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one!”

Here is the Hebrew: Shema Yisrael: Yahweh Elochenu Yahweh Echad. The Hebrew language has two words that are translated “one”—Yachid and Echad. Yachid means an absolute one. Echad refers to a united one. Echad is the word used of God in the Old Testament—God is a united one.

2. The Father is God. (2 Peter 1:17)

3. The Son is God. (John 8:58)

4. The Holy Spirit is God. (Acts 5:3-4)

5. Father, Son and Holy Spirit are distinct individuals. (John 14:26)

6. Therefore, there are three Persons in the one Godhead

Since the Trinity is completely unique, no ****ogy really fits. The Trinity is not really “like” anything.

But attempts have been made. The best ****ogies do not look at the Trinity as three parts that make up a whole, like these examples:

• Shamrock: Saint Patrick, who spread the Gospel in Ireland, used a three-leafed clover.

• Egg: Another common one—eggshell, egg white and yolk.

• H2O: The three phases of H2O—water, ice, steam—are better as an ****ogy but also fall short since any given temperature produces only one of these at a time. That picture leads to a false doctrine that says the Trinity is really only one person who takes on one of three modes at any given time. This belief is problematic for those who hold it: Just what was going on in the Garden of Gethsemane when Jesus was praying to the Father? Was He talking to himself?

The best illustration I have seen comes from C.S. Lewis:

• The three dimensions of space: Length, width and height. All coincide in the same place, yet are distinct.

My James has used this ****ogy many times to try and explain the Trinity and when one truly takes the time to think about it, it makes perfect sense. I so hope this has helped you.

Amen. We must believe by faith. Without faith we cannot please God.

James Banta

07-30-2011, 08:14 AM

But LDS doctrine reconciles the two Bible teachings: The teaching that each of the three separate (to use James Banta's term) Persons is deity, and the teaching that the Person of the Father is the Only True God as far as Christians are concerned.

That's what makes LDS theology so appealing--it makes sense of potentially difficult or cryptic Bible p***ages.

Hey, I am being remembered by you :) This p***age must be as you make it out to be if you see different levels of gods that have been created.. But if the Bible is true and there is One God how can any person included as God be less than the other? Can God be less than God? Can God be greater than God? When Jesus put on flesh and laid His glory down so that He could complete the great work of God in purchasing the souls of men from death and sin the Father was greater because he held the glory of God within Himself. But was Jesus ever not God? NO! Jesus gave the Father all the glory and ***le of being what He is, GOD! Yet Jesus also claimed to be the I AM, the YHWH, the God that spoke to Moses from the burning bush.. The One True and Living God.. Peter said that the Holy Spirit was God.. and Still Jesus agreed with Moses in the law as he said that the LORD (YHWH) our GOD (Elohim) is one LORD.. LDS theology makes the whole of the Bible a lie, as it denies the statement from God through Moses and the words of Jesus spoken in agreement with that teaching. The problem is you see this major doctrine in the vacuum of John 17:3 while denying the p***age I have listed so many times before and then this one I haven't brought to your attention before..

1John 5:20
And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

Here the Holy Spirit through the Apostle tells us that The Father and the Son are the true God.. This is the same way that all three persons called God in Scripture are the ONE TRUE GOD.. Smith and his invented church have it wrong.. God has said it.. There is one God. He has always existed as God and will always continue to exist as the ONLY REAL GOD.. Sorry to burst your bubble about obtaining divinity but the *** had already been filled.. IHS jim

HopefulSaint

07-30-2011, 11:47 AM

Can God be greater than God?
Jesus apparently thought so

When Jesus put on flesh and laid His glory down so that He could complete the great work of God in purchasing the souls of men from death and sin the Father was greater because he held the glory of God within Himself. But was Jesus ever not God? NO! Jesus gave the Father all the glory and ***le of being what He is, GOD! Yet Jesus also claimed to be the I AM, the YHWH, the God that spoke to Moses from the burning bush..

So you're saying that the Only True God is able to change from a state of having glory, to a state of not having any glory? That is the only conclusion possible if Jesus--one of the 3 Persons of the Trinity--is the only True God of Christianity.

James Banta

07-31-2011, 07:16 AM

[HopefulSaint;92494]Jesus apparently thought so

Then it must be is some way other than power, authority, Love, mercy, justice and a thousand on thousands of His other attributes, Maybe the way that He was less than the Father is that Jesus laid down His glory as He entered mortality.. Other than that the devils recognized Him, and nature herself obeyed His commands..

So you're saying that the Only True God is able to change from a state of having glory, to a state of not having any glory? That is the only conclusion possible if Jesus--one of the 3 Persons of the Trinity--is the only True God of Christianity.

Even man changes states from a physical mortal being to a Spiritual immortal being.. Why do you limit the power if God to lay down His glory? Didn't Jesus say "O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was." What Happened to that Glory if He didn't lay it down when He entered the world?

Since there is only One God and all three Persons of the Godhead are individually called God the only why that such can be explained is the doctrine of the Trinity.. I have asked several time here for anyone to propose a different doctrine that supports both biblical teachings that the Lord (YHWH, or Jehovah) Our God (Elohim) is one Lord, and that the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God. So come show us all what the true doctrine is..

It can't be what Smith said that there are three Gods.. That doesn't fit the first teaching that the Lord is One.. It can't be that only the Father is God That doesn't fit into the fact that three Persons are all called God in the Scripture. So go ahead tell us the real truth, How is it that God is one and there are three beings that are all rightly called God.. Explain the real truth if what I teach is in error.. IHS jim

HopefulSaint

07-31-2011, 08:57 PM

How is it that God is one and there are three beings that are all rightly called God.. Explain the real truth if what I teach is in error.. IHS jim
Fairly simple: Where the NT verses say that Jesus and His Father are one, it meant it metaphorically, not literally. Where the OT scriptures say that the God of ancient Israel is one, it meant that was only one God of ancient Israel.

James Banta

07-31-2011, 09:34 PM

Fairly simple: Where the NT verses say that Jesus and His Father are one, it meant it metaphorically, not literally. Where the OT scriptures say that the God of ancient Israel is one, it meant that was only one God of ancient Israel.

Moses taught that YHWH our Elohim is one YHWH (Deut 6:4), Jesus agreed with that teaching (Mark 12:29).. Isaiah recorded God in revelation that Before Him there was no God Formed, Neither will there be one formed after Him. He told the prophet that he doesn't even know that any other Gods exist. That other than Him there is no savior.. (Isaiah 43:10,11, 44:8) That is clear that one God and only one God is taught in the OT because God doesn't justsay that He is the God of Israel but the only God that exists period..

Jesus said that when you have seen Him you have seen the Father He and the Father are one.. That is meant as Jesus said it.. He and the Father are one God.. Not two gods.. You can out a nonliteral meaning on His words but there was no parable in His words as he taught that truth (John 14:8-9).. If you want to say that everytime the Bible teaches something you don't like that it's only metaphoric then you can make up your own truth. I instead chose to believe God.. IHS jim

HopefulSaint

08-02-2011, 12:21 AM

I instead chose to believe God.. IHS jim
Yes, I, too, choose to believe Jesus when He prayed that His disciples would be one as Jesus and the Father are one. If that was intended to mean one being, then Jesus was praying that His disciples would literally become one being. Which seems very, very unlikely.

So, instead, I choose to believe Jesus. :)

alanmolstad

01-11-2013, 07:30 AM

James Banta

01-11-2013, 09:18 AM

We are Christians because we believe in the resurrection of Jesus.

The belief has caused us to place our trust in chris that just as he came to life from the dead, so too one day God will raise us.

We are saved by grace though faith, not by works.

faith comes by hearing, and hearing comes to us via the Word of God.

The problem is the mormons will say, "We believe all that too so you have to agree that we are Christians". Still I exclude them, ALL Christian churches exclude them, Why? Because they have perverted the nature of God casting away the revelation of the true and living God and put the myths, the creations of Men in His place.. They don't have 1 God they have 3 (Joseph Smith, Sermon on Plurality of Gods, History of the Church, Vol. 6, p. 473).. They have deserted the invisible God (Col 1:15) for a God of flesh and bone (D&C 130:22).

Their problem isn't what they teach that Jesus did their problem is who Jesus is.. He is either the YHWH he said He is of he is a liar and a fraud.. That meaning that the Jesus of Mormonism is a fraud. This is seen in Him either becoming a god, or that only the Father is God.. Either way the mormon jesus is a fraud and that is why they are not Christian.. IHS jim

RealFakeHair

01-11-2013, 02:43 PM

The problem is the mormons will say, "We believe all that too so you have to agree that we are Christians". Still I exclude them, ALL Christian churches exclude them, Why? Because they have perverted the nature of God casting away the revelation of the true and living God and put the myths, the creations of Men in His place.. They don't have 1 God they have 3 (Joseph Smith, Sermon on Plurality of Gods, History of the Church, Vol. 6, p. 473).. They have deserted the invisible God (Col 1:15) for a God of flesh and bone (D&C 130:22).

Their problem isn't what they teach that Jesus did their problem is who Jesus is.. He is either the YHWH he said He is of he is a liar and a fraud.. That meaning that the Jesus of Mormonism is a fraud. This is seen in Him either becoming a god, or that only the Father is God.. Either way the mormon jesus is a fraud and that is why they are not Christian.. IHS jim

It is correct to say, LDS are not Christian, as in New Testament terms. It is also correct tosay, LDS are not in any way related to Old Testament conception of (God Jehoviah.)
LDS inc, is a religion unto itself, and at best may be described as a hybrid of Christianity.

James Banta

01-17-2013, 09:53 AM

Yes as long as that hy-bread is with paganism.. IHS jim

alanmolstad

03-18-2013, 08:59 AM

I don't believe Jesus' atonement is sufficient to absolve you of all personal responsibility.

Do you think God accepts filthy rags?

The Bible tells us what it views as "filthy rags"...= ..."all our righteous acts"

In other words, "works"

People that put their trust in their own righteous acts and works as being able to count for something in their own salvation are going to have such things judged as "filthy rags"

We are saved only one way...By Grace though FAITH, not by works....

Valentinus

04-01-2013, 09:36 AM

People on this board throw around the term Christian verses non Christian. What exactly are the requirements to be a Christian?

Rejecting the Athanasian Creed would be a good start.

Billyray

04-01-2013, 09:54 AM

Rejecting the Athanasian Creed would be a good start.
What exactly are the requirements to be a Christian?

RealFakeHair

04-01-2013, 09:56 AM

What exactly are the requirements to be a Christian?

I bet he'll tell you!

Valentinus

04-01-2013, 10:12 AM

What exactly are the requirements to be a Christian?

I would hope that faith in the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ would be the best place to start. However, adherence to man made creeds such as the Apostle's, Athanasian and Nicene need not apply. Those are human responses to what scripture says.

I'm honestly not even sure that the question concerning requirements is appropriate. I read Mark Driscoll's theological rag Doctrine and found it wanting. That's definitely not a good example of what makes a "real" Christian.

The differing theologies that have come about since the first century are fascinating. But for me, there is not a single branch of the Christian movement that is "better" or "more accurate" or "orthodox". Then again, orthodoxy is more of an opinion than a fact.

Billyray

04-01-2013, 10:18 AM

I would hope that faith in the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ would be the best place to start. However, adherence to man made creeds such as the Apostle's, Athanasian and Nicene need not apply. Those are human responses to what scripture says.

The only one who keeps bringing up creeds is you, most Christian posters on this board are comfortable with using the scriptures and not relying on a creed. BTW the issue with relying on the scriptures is that you don't believe the scriptures are the word of God and riddled with errors so how on earth can you determine what the requirements would be for being a Christian other than pulling an answer out of thin air.

Valentinus

04-01-2013, 10:24 AM

The only one who keeps bringing up creeds is you, most Christian posters on this board are comfortable with using the scriptures and not relying on a creed. BTW the issue with relying on the scriptures is that you don't believe the scriptures are the word of God and riddled with errors so how on earth can you determine what the requirements would be for being a Christian other than pulling an answer out of thin air.

Apologies. I need to leave the creeds alone. They aren't canon nor are they doctrine.

I'm not entirely sure that the scriptures point out exactly what a Christian is supposed to be. I think there are some great ideas and then there are some that I'm not sure.

But still, is the question really appropriate or reasonable?

Apologette

04-01-2013, 02:21 PM

Apologies. I need to leave the creeds alone. They aren't canon nor are they doctrine.

I'm not entirely sure that the scriptures point out exactly what a Christian is supposed to be. I think there are some great ideas and then there are some that I'm not sure.

But still, is the question really appropriate or reasonable?

A Christian is someone regenerated by the Holy Spirit and cleansed in the Blood of Christ.

Valentinus

04-01-2013, 02:26 PM

A Christian is someone regenerated by the Holy Spirit and cleansed in the Blood of Christ.

You've described what a Christian is. You haven't answered what the requirements are to be a Christian. I still find the question to be problematic.

Apologette

04-01-2013, 02:41 PM

You've described what a Christian is. You haven't answered what the requirements are to be a Christian. I still find the question to be problematic.

As a Calvinist I believe exactly what I said - God calls and elects us to salvation. He regenerates us and cleanses us in Christ's Blood. There is nothing I can do to be "qualified" to be a Christian.

Valentinus

04-01-2013, 02:50 PM

As a Calvinist I believe exactly what I said - God calls and elects us to salvation. He regenerates us and cleanses us in Christ's Blood. There is nothing I can do to be "qualified" to be a Christian.

That's fine. But a non-Mormon proposed this question almost 2 years ago! Why would you ask such a question if there is really nothing that qualifies you as a Christian.

You last statement is a little odd to me considering that in Hebrew faith can be used as a verb. Just a thought.

Apologette

04-01-2013, 02:57 PM

That's fine. But a non-Mormon proposed this question almost 2 years ago! Why would you ask such a question if there is really nothing that qualifies you as a Christian.

You last statement is a little odd to me considering that in Hebrew faith can be used as a verb. Just a thought.

I'm not a Hebrew. I didn't ask the question. I just gave the answer.

Valentinus

04-01-2013, 03:01 PM

I'm not a Hebrew. I didn't ask the question. I just gave the answer.

This is such an odd response. So you don't "do" faith? I do. Many of my non-Mormon Christian friends "do" faith.

Apologette

04-01-2013, 03:08 PM

This is such an odd response. So you don't "do" faith? I do. Many of my non-Mormon Christian friends "do" faith.

No, in order to have faith, your dead spirit must be made alive. You are a corpse prior to regeneration. You can have no faith in Christ if you are a corpse. God must regenerate you before you can have faith in Christ. This is standard Reformed doctrine.

Valentinus

04-01-2013, 03:18 PM

No, in order to have faith, your dead spirit must be made alive. You are a corpse prior to regeneration. You can have no faith in Christ if you are a corpse. God must regenerate you before you can have faith in Christ. This is standard Reformed doctrine.

I'm definitely not Reformed and will never even bother with Calvinist theology. The Reformed position you propose isn't demonstrated in first century Christianity, IMO, of course.

ETA: One of my friends who "does" faith is also an Acts 29 guy. I guess Reformed vs Acts 29 Reformed differ in some ways.

Apologette

04-01-2013, 03:49 PM

I'm definitely not Reformed and will never even bother with Calvinist theology. The Reformed position you propose isn't demonstrated in first century Christianity, IMO, of course.

ETA: One of my friends who "does" faith is also an Acts 29 guy. I guess Reformed vs Acts 29 Reformed differ in some ways.

Well, I disagree. But we are here to discuss Mormonism, not Calvinism.

Billyray

04-01-2013, 03:58 PM

But a non-Mormon proposed this question almost 2 years ago! Why would you ask such a question if there is really nothing that qualifies you as a Christian.

Both sides have labeled me a non Christian. I think that it is only fair that both sides give me (and others who might benefit) the requirements to be a Christian. This seems like a simple yet fair request. Don't you think?
I am the one who brought this up a couple of years ago. I am currently a non-mormon but I was born and raised in the LDS church so I am familiar with LDS teachings. The reason that I started this thread was in response to both LDS and non LDS claiming that I was not Christian despite the fact that I profess faith in Christ and that he will save me from my sins. So I was trying to get at the bottom of what exactly was the basis for both sides labeling me as non Christian. BigJ made this claim multiple times and she is LDS. As best as I could tell from her responses I didn't do certain works that were consistent with being a Christian. She no longer posts on this forum so I won't be able to get any more clarification from her.

Valentinus

04-02-2013, 11:35 AM

Well, I disagree. But we are here to discuss Mormonism, not Calvinism.

You're the one that brought up Calvinism. You should have left that out all together.

Valentinus

04-02-2013, 11:38 AM

I am the one who brought this up a couple of years ago. I am currently a non-mormon but I was born and raised in the LDS church so I am familiar with LDS teachings. The reason that I started this thread was in response to both LDS and non LDS claiming that I was not Christian despite the fact that I profess faith in Christ and that he will save me from my sins. So I was trying to get at the bottom of what exactly was the basis for both sides labeling me as non Christian. BigJ made this claim multiple times and she is LDS. As best as I could tell from her responses I didn't do certain works that were consistent with being a Christian. She no longer posts on this forum so I won't be able to get any more clarification from her.

Okay. That makes more sense. Thanks for the background, Billyray.

alanmolstad

02-08-2014, 10:23 AM

People on this board throw around the term Christian verses non Christian. What exactly are the requirements to be a Christian?To believe in the Lord Jesus Christ.
To believe in who he is, what he did for you, and in his resurrection.

This is what makes us Christians.

James Banta

02-08-2014, 01:48 PM

To believe in the Lord Jesus Christ.
To believe in who he is, what he did for you, and in his resurrection.

This is what makes us Christians.

In spite of what the LDS say about those of us that believe we are saved by grace though faith in Jesus we call Him our Lord.. Therefore we strive to put the flesh under the control of the spirit.. We strive to live in obedience to His commandments.. We also realize that we are truly obedient only through His works and accept His imputed righteousness as our own.. It isn't by anything we have done or can do that makes us His. We are made to be conformed to His image through God's unmerited favor.. Not because we deserve it but because God chose us.. Why? We will have to ask Him.. I for one am far from being deserving.. I think that may have something to do with it. Those with the most reason to to be forgiven often are called and those that have little to repent of often believe they can heal their own wounds. I know I need Jesus. Only in Him do I have any hope.. Complete reliance on Jesus is what makes us Christian.. IHS jim

Christian

02-08-2014, 02:23 PM

To believe in the Lord Jesus Christ.
To believe in who he is, what he did for you, and in his resurrection.

This is what makes us Christians.

James 2:19-20
19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe — and tremble!
NKJV

Then do you believe that the demons are Christians? THEY TOO believe. . .

(No, I don't either. . .) :rolleyes:

in Jesus,
fish

alanmolstad

02-08-2014, 02:49 PM

Knowing about someone , is vastly different than believing in someone.

James Banta

02-08-2014, 04:19 PM

Knowing about someone , is vastly different than believing in someone.

The Holy Spirit tell us through James that the demons believe that God is one.. Mormonism denies believing as much about God as the demons believe.. IHS jim

alanmolstad

02-09-2014, 07:06 AM

James Banta

02-09-2014, 09:14 AM

when I believe in God, I mean that I fully trust him and his offering of salvation to us.
I believe him when i place my trust in him.

Demons dont have this type of relationship with god.

While they may understand who God is, they yet will not ever believe in him as in- to place their trust in him for their salvation.

And you are correct James, due to the fact that Mormons dont believe in the God of the bible, they have no relationship with God just as the demons have no relationship with God.

It is clear that the demons believe that God is.. This is the dead faith that the mormons are always telling us that we have because we see salvation as being a gift from God to those that have faith in Jesus.. They require works first then faith before God's grace is available to those that confess Jesus.. As far as their insistence that James 2 is authority that works are required for salvation, they are wrong.. James tell is that faith is the key to God's grace.. James clearly teaches that works are there to show others that we have faith not to show God our faith..

James 2:18
Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

James here is telling us that FAITH is still the key and that works are the visible result of saving faith.. And who sees this faith that is manifest by our works, God? No, other men see it.. Isn't that what James teaches in the p***age? James 2 is not a chapter of the Bible that the LDS should quote.. It condemns then time and time again.. It is something we as Christian need to remember.. Never hold preference for the rich over the poor. See to the welfare of the needy, the widowed, and the orphan. Cloth the naked and feed the hungry.. These are the works of God's love all Christians are called to do.. These works aren't the way to salvation They are just the signs that God lives in us and he is doing His works through us.. IHS jim

James Banta

02-09-2014, 09:20 AM

Both sides have labeled me a non Christian. I think that it is only fair that both sides give me (and others who might benefit) the requirements to be a Christian. This seems like a simple yet fair request. Don't you think?

We don't agree on every point of doctrine.. We don't have to.. But Billy I never said you weren't my brother in Christ.. All the side issue no withstanding you hold that Jesus is God, that He died that we can be made clean and only By His grace through faith in Him can we be saved.. You hold that as truth and are my brother.. I stand at your side lifting the name of Jesus to the unsaved pointing them to His cross.. IHS jim

Christian

02-09-2014, 04:11 PM

I don't believe Jesus' atonement is sufficient to absolve you of all personal responsibility.

Do you think God accepts filthy rags?

He does if those rags have been washed by the blood of Jesus Christ.

Absolve us from personal responsibility? Responsibility to do WHAT? Save our souls? ONLY JESUS could do that. Responsibility to live a Christian life? OF COURSE we are responsible for that, as the Spirit and the WORD OF GOD direct. Not as you or the rcc religion direct.

In the Name of Jesus,
fish

alanmolstad

03-03-2016, 10:00 AM

I don't believe Jesus' atonement is sufficient to absolve you of all personal responsibility.

Do you think God accepts filthy rags?

First,the quote you list "Filthy rags" refers in the Bible to the works that a Man might try to do to earn his salvation.

So we know seeking to perform works are not the way to find salvation .

alanmolstad

03-03-2016, 10:06 AM

Now...as for the work of the cross being sufficient to save men>>>>

Here is the answer _

Check out the point in the video at 3:40 to see how it all works out...

Enjoy!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fL1eXPgFy6k

alanmolstad

12-07-2016, 08:47 PM

First,the quote you list "Filthy rags" refers in the Bible to the works that a Man might try to do to earn his salvation.

So we know seeking to perform works are not the way to find salvation .
still one of my better answers... :)

alanmolstad

12-07-2016, 08:59 PM

dberrie2000

12-08-2016, 06:17 AM

First,the quote you list "Filthy rags" refers in the Bible to the works that a Man might try to do to earn his salvation.

First--that reference is to those who were in this spiritual condition:

Isaiah 64:6-7King James Version (KJV)
6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.
7 And there is none that calleth upon thy name, that stirreth up himself to take hold of thee: for thou hast hid thy face from us, and hast consumed us, because of our iniquities.

Not a reference to these:

1 John 3:7---King James Version (KJV)
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

So we know seeking to perform works are not the way to find salvation .

Are you claiming those who did these works didn't find salvation?

Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

alanmolstad

12-15-2016, 08:36 PM

Christian

12-18-2016, 08:00 AM

Just curious here, but how do you get faith in the true Jesus "and nothing else" out of those scriptures.

It's easy. It is what the Scripture SAYS.

The Scripture:
Eph 2:8-9
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works , lest anyone should boast.
NKJV

Works = Anything WE do.

Rom 4:4Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.
NKJV

Rom 11:6
6 And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.
NKJV

It is ALL the only REAL Jesus and NOT US who saves us from the penalty of our sins. False christs (spirit brothers of satan as the mormons claim) can't do it.

dberrie2000

12-21-2016, 05:38 AM

It's easy. It is what the Scripture SAYS.

The Scripture:
Eph 2:8-9
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works , lest anyone should boast.
NKJV

Works = Anything WE do.

When Paul used the term "works"--that was a reference to certain Mosaic Law rituals, such as circumcision, not acts of obedience to Jesus Christ.

Could you explain for us--if you believe acts of obedience are not required for salvation--then why are all men judged according to works--after death--and that for life or ****ation?

John 5:28-29---King James Version (KJV)
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have[COLOR="#FF0000"] done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation.

2 Corinthians 5:10---King James Version (KJV)
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Matthew 16:27---King James Version (KJV)
27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Romans 2:5-11---King James Version (KJV)
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

1 Peter 1:16-17---King James Version (KJV)
16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.
17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, p*** the time of your sojourning here in fear:

alanmolstad

12-21-2016, 06:59 AM

In the Life of a Christian such as myself, the "works" we deal with are the things that the Lord performs though us.

This is why we are advised to not 'quench the spirit" for we must always keep in mind that by ourselves we can do nothing,,,,(No works), it is the father in us that is working His will though our lives.

Our challenge therefore to the Christian is to open our hearts that it allows the Spirit to guide us in our walk, so that our lives are filled with a record of Good Works.

dberrie2000

12-21-2016, 09:43 AM

In the Life of a Christian such as myself, the "works" we deal with are the things that the Lord performs though us.

I don't believe the Lord is being judged here:

John 5:28-29---King James Version (KJV)
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation.

2 Corinthians 5:10---King James Version (KJV)
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Matthew 16:27---King James Version (KJV)
27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Romans 2:5-11---King James Version (KJV)
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

1 Peter 1:16-17---King James Version (KJV)
16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.
17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, p*** the time of your sojourning here in fear:

Christian

12-21-2016, 05:59 PM

I don't believe the Lord is being judged here:

John 5:28-29---King James Version (KJV)
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation.

2 Corinthians 5:10---King James Version (KJV)
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Matthew 16:27---King James Version (KJV)
27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Romans 2:5-11---King James Version (KJV)
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

1 Peter 1:16-17---King James Version (KJV)
16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.
17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, p*** the time of your sojourning here in fear:

Yet NOT ONE OF THOSE P***AGES says anything about doing 'works' TO BECOME a Christian.

CHRISTIANS DO WORKS. We were MADE for them. (Ephesians 2:9) Read verse 8 too. IT says that we become Christians NOT BY WORKS we do.

The TRUTH IS. . .JESUS DID IT ALL. . .about 2,000 years ago.

Joey smith did nothing but lie, steal, try to incite riots, and try to kill people in an attempt to escape from jail.

What CHRISTIAN IN THE BIBLE EVER behaved like that?

Joey lied.

dberrie2000

12-23-2016, 06:14 AM

Yet NOT ONE OF THOSE P***AGES says anything about doing 'works' TO BECOME a Christian.

CHRISTIANS DO WORKS. We were MADE for them. (Ephesians 2:9) Read verse 8 too. IT says that we become Christians NOT BY WORKS we do.

The TRUTH IS. . .JESUS DID IT ALL. . .about 2,000 years ago.

If Jesus Christ did it all--then why are all judged according to works--after death--and that for life or ****ation?

John 5:28-29---King James Version (KJV)
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation.

2 Corinthians 5:10---King James Version (KJV)
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Matthew 16:27---King James Version (KJV)
27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Romans 2:5-11---King James Version (KJV)
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

1 Peter 1:16-17---King James Version (KJV)
16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.
17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, p*** the time of your sojourning here in fear:

Would you care to engage those scriptures?

alanmolstad

12-23-2016, 12:30 PM

If Jesus Christ did it all--?

"If"?

There is no "if" about it...

Christian

12-23-2016, 12:34 PM

If Jesus Christ did it all--then why are all judged according to works--after death--and that for life or ****ation?

John 5:28-29---King James Version (KJV)
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation.

2 Corinthians 5:10---King James Version (KJV)
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Matthew 16:27---King James Version (KJV)
27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Romans 2:5-11---King James Version (KJV)
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

1 Peter 1:16-17---King James Version (KJV)
16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.
17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, p*** the time of your sojourning here in fear:

Would you care to engage those scriptures?

I did aleady. You just ignored it. You also keep PRETENDING they have to BECOMING A CHRISTIAN (being saved from the penalty for our sins)

Would YOU care to engage THIS ONE:

Ex 20:16
16 "You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
NKJV

You seem to ignore that one too. . .
Yet you seem to try to make things REQUIREMENTS to be a Christian that simply are NOT required to be a Christian.

GOD told us:

Rom 4:3-83 For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.

5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:

7 "Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
And whose sins are covered;
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin."
NKJV

Your false charges against Christians are without excuse.

dberrie2000

12-24-2016, 08:17 AM

"If"? There is no "if" about it...

Then could you explain why all are judged according to their own works--after death--and that for life or ****ation?

John 5:28-29---King James Version (KJV)
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation.

2 Corinthians 5:10---King James Version (KJV)
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Matthew 16:27---King James Version (KJV)
27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Romans 2:5-11---King James Version (KJV)
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

1 Peter 1:16-17---King James Version (KJV)
16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.
17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, p*** the time of your sojourning here in fear:

alanmolstad

12-24-2016, 11:08 PM

Then could you explain why all are judged according to their own works--after death--and that for life or ****ation?

You know, I sure thought I have already dealt with this question, but let me go over this once again.

The Lost ARE judged and are condemned for their sin.
But the Christian has no sins that are not already covered by the blood of the Lord, therefore our judgement is a time of rejoicing and rewards!!!!!!!

We are given our reward according to the way we allowed the Lord to use our lives for his glory.

This is why Jesus had to say that by himself he could do nothing,,,he alone he could do no works at all...
It is the father in us that does the works though us.

This is why I cant not wait for my own judgement before the Lord, for it will be a time of my rejoicing and my receiving rewards and blessings!

Christian

12-29-2016, 03:43 PM

dberrie2000

12-30-2016, 06:27 AM

You know, I sure thought I have already dealt with this question, but let me go over this once again.

The Lost ARE judged and are condemned for their sin.
But the Christian has no sins that are not already covered by the blood of the Lord, therefore our judgement is a time of rejoicing and rewards!!!!!!!

We are given our reward according to the way we allowed the Lord to use our lives for his glory.

That is still a judgment according to works--after death--and that for life or ****ation.

That defies faith alone theology.

John 5:28-29----King James Version (KJV)
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation.

2 Corinthians 5:10---King James Version (KJV)
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Could you identify who the "we" are here?

1 Peter 1:16-17---King James Version (KJV)
16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.
17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, p*** the time of your sojourning here in fear:

Romans 2:5-11----King James Version (KJV)
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

Christian

12-31-2016, 04:52 PM

[QUOTE] Originally Posted by Apologette View Post
As a Calvinist I believe exactly what I said - God calls and elects us to salvation. He regenerates us and cleanses us in Christ's Blood. There is nothing I can do to be "qualified" to be a Christian. [QUOTE]

That's fine. But a non-Mormon proposed this question almost 2 years ago! Why would you ask such a question if there is really nothing that qualifies you as a Christian.

You last statement is a little odd to me considering that in Hebrew faith can be used as a verb. Just a thought.

YOUR entire post is 'a little odd' to me.

First off, she NEVER ONCE SAID nothing qualified her as a Christian. She explained with excellent accuracy what JESUS did that qualifies us as Christians. Since you don't seem to understand that, I would have to ask YOU why YOU think YOU are a Christian at all. . .

If you think YOU can 'qualify' to be a Christian WITHOUT JESUS CHRIST, then you are delusional, imho.

BTW, IN ENGLISH faith can be either a noun OR a verb, just as it can be in Hebrew AND GREEK.

Just a thought. . .

Berean

01-09-2017, 01:26 PM

That is still a judgment according to works--after death--and that for life or ****ation.

That defies faith alone theology.

John 5:28-29----King James Version (KJV)
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation.

2 Corinthians 5:10---King James Version (KJV)
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Could you identify who the "we" are here?

1 Peter 1:16-17---King James Version (KJV)
16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.
17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, p*** the time of your sojourning here in fear:

Romans 2:5-11----King James Version (KJV)
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

And Eph 2:9 says what?

Berean

01-09-2017, 01:31 PM

The Bible clearly teaches that good works cannot make us acceptable to God. ***us 3:5 says, “He saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit.”

So, a Christian is someone who has been born again (John 3:3; John 3:7; 1 Peter 1:23) and has put faith and trust in Jesus Christ alone for his/her salvation.

Ephesians 2:8 tells us that it is “…by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God.”

alanmolstad

08-08-2017, 08:37 PM

dberrie2000

09-29-2017, 09:25 AM

I enjoy this post of mine..

I enjoyed this one:

"I don't believe the Lord is being judged here:

John 5:28-29---King James Version (KJV)
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation.

2 Corinthians 5:10---King James Version (KJV)
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Matthew 16:27---King James Version (KJV)
27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Romans 2:5-11---King James Version (KJV)
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

1 Peter 1:16-17---King James Version (KJV)
16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.
17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, p*** the time of your sojourning here in fear:"

alanmolstad

09-30-2017, 04:53 AM

I enjoyed this one"

Thanks....

dberrie2000

09-30-2017, 01:27 PM

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post I enjoyed this one:

"I don't believe the Lord is being judged here:

John 5:28-29---King James Version (KJV)
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation.

2 Corinthians 5:10---King James Version (KJV)
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Matthew 16:27---King James Version (KJV)
27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Romans 2:5-11---King James Version (KJV)
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

1 Peter 1:16-17---King James Version (KJV)
16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.
17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, p*** the time of your sojourning here in fear:"

Thanks....

You are welcome.

Now--could you explain for us how you collate faith alone theology with the above scriptures?