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Billyray
05-24-2011, 09:59 AM
People on this board throw around the term Christian verses non Christian. What exactly are the requirements to be a Christian?

some1you_know
05-24-2011, 10:11 AM
People on this board throw around the term Christian verses non Christian. What exactly are the requirements to be a Christian?

John 5: 24 says, "Truly, I say to you, he who hears My words and believes in Him who sent Me, has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgement, but has p***ed from death to life."

John 6: 29 says, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent."

Romans 10: 9 says, "That if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved."

Billyray
05-24-2011, 10:15 AM
John 5: 24 says, "Truly, I say to you, he who hears My words and believes in Him who sent Me, has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgement, but has p***ed from death to life."

John 6: 29 says, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent."

Romans 10: 9 says, "That if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved."

So a Christian is defined by having faith in the true Jesus and nothing else?

some1you_know
05-24-2011, 10:23 AM
So a Christian is defined by having faith in the true Jesus and nothing else?

I would say that according to the Bible, yes. But, as you wisely stated, it must be faith in the One True God, not an idol of our own imagination. Just like Galatians 1: 6-10 states. :)

Billyray
05-24-2011, 10:25 AM
I would say that according to the Bible, yes. But, as you wisely stated, it must be faith in the One True God, not an idol of our own imagination.

I totally agree with you that what defines a Christian is having faith in the true Jesus.

Billyray
05-24-2011, 10:52 AM
Certainly Christians will naturally have a life consistent with their beliefs and over time they will become more and more Christlike via sanctification. But does anyone feel that there are any actions or works required in addition to your faith to be considered a Christian?

robsmom
05-24-2011, 11:40 AM
Actions or works? No. We cannot earn our salvation. Eph. 2:10 says that Christ has prepared us to DO works but we are not saved BY works.







"Nothing in my hand I bring; simply to thy cross I cling."

Snow Patrol
05-24-2011, 01:03 PM
Just curious here, but how do you get faith in the true Jesus "and nothing else" out of those scriptures.

Billyray
05-24-2011, 01:06 PM
Just curious here, but how do you get faith in the true Jesus "and nothing else" out of those scriptures.
What do you think are the requirements to be a Christian?

ErikErik
05-24-2011, 01:19 PM
Just curious here, but how do you get faith in the true Jesus "and nothing else" out of those scriptures.

Because the Scriptures teaches that works do not save us. It also says that remission of sins can only come by the blood of Christ

some1you_know
05-24-2011, 02:09 PM
Just curious here, but how do you get faith in the true Jesus "and nothing else" out of those scriptures.

Snow- John 6: 29 states that the work of God is to believe in Him whom He sent. Our own works of righteousness are like filthy rags before God. We only become righteous when we acknowledge and accept what He did for us. 2 Corinthians 5: 21 tells us that Christ became sin for us, to take our deserved punishment, so we could be reconciled with God. Our works, filthy rags, could never allow us to reconciled to the Father.

Fig-bearing Thistle
05-24-2011, 03:20 PM
Snow- John 6: 29 states that the work of God is to believe in Him whom He sent. Our own works of righteousness are like filthy rags before God. We only become righteous when we acknowledge and accept what He did for us. 2 Corinthians 5: 21 tells us that Christ became sin for us, to take our deserved punishment, so we could be reconciled with God. Our works, filthy rags, could never allow us to reconciled to the Father.

I don't believe Jesus' atonement is sufficient to absolve you of all personal responsibility.

Do you think God accepts filthy rags?

Billyray
05-24-2011, 03:24 PM
I don't believe Jesus' atonement is sufficient to absolve you of all personal responsibility.

Do you think God accepts filthy rags?

Fig what are the requirement to be a Christian?

Billyray
05-24-2011, 03:34 PM
When I am asked how many Christians there are I agree with Jesus and say "FEW".. IHS jim
Jim from your comment above it appears that there are only a small percentage of Christians who are really Christians. Can you tell me the criteria you use to determine who is and who is not really a Christian?

Billyray
05-24-2011, 07:20 PM
What could possibly be more important in knowing the exact criteria for being a Christian? How could a person know what is required if he has no idea what is required? I am a little surprised at the lack of responses from some of our long term posters.

alanmolstad
05-24-2011, 07:25 PM
We are Christians because of the resurrection.
No other teaching in the Bible stands as important that this one single idea.
That Christ died, and was raised again in an immortal body of flesh and bone.

Now, after this, there are some other very important ideas that mark us Christians out.
The Trinity, salvation my Grace though faith, baptism, the holy Meal...the use of the Bible as canon...

Billyray
05-24-2011, 07:37 PM
We are Christians because of the resurrection. . .salvation my Grace though faith. . .


Alan could you clarify for me? We are Christians because of the resurrection or because we place our faith in Christ? And what else besides our faith is required?

dfoJC
05-25-2011, 10:24 AM
What could possibly be more important in knowing the exact criteria for being a Christian? How could a person know what is required if he has no idea what is required? I am a little surprised at the lack of responses from some of our long term posters.

Good thread here Billyray. I found every answer good, but for me there is but one truth that defines what being a Christian is. And given the culture that we are living in this truth is an absolute, for today the word "christian" has any number of definitions, and some of those definitions are totally repugnant to me.

The one truth for me to be a christian is simply this, "you must be born again." That is, the old is p***ed away, all things have become new. Being born from above. It is such a simple yet profoundly life changing event.

One who has never been born again is not a christian, he or she may claim to be a christian, but inevitably, they cannot be based upon this one truth.

Thanks be to Him who made this rebirth possible. ¡A El sea la gloria!

dfoJC

BigJulie
05-25-2011, 10:27 AM
Interesting that any 'Christian" believes there are "requirements" to be a Christian.

So, the question becomes--would you consider the Good Samaritan a "Christian" or not?

Billyray
05-25-2011, 10:40 AM
Good thread here Billyray. I found every answer good, but for me there is but one truth that defines what being a Christian is. And given the culture that we are living in this truth is an absolute, for today the word "christian" has any number of definitions, and some of those definitions are totally repugnant to me.

The one truth for me to be a christian is simply this, "you must be born again." That is, the old is p***ed away, all things have become new. Being born from above. It is such a simple yet profoundly life changing event.

One who has never been born again is not a christian, he or she may claim to be a christian, but inevitably, they cannot be based upon this one truth.

Thanks be to Him who made this rebirth possible. ¡A El sea la gloria!

dfoJC

I agree.

Do you believe that being "born again" is a work of God and not of man, i.e. that God is the one responsible for regeneration?

Billyray
05-25-2011, 10:48 AM
Interesting that any 'Christian" believes there are "requirements" to be a Christian.

BigJ you have a good point and a point that I am trying to get at with this thread. You are a least consistent with your theological position. You believe in works and actions in addition to faith so when you said that I was not a Christian it was based on the belief that I did not display certain works/actions. However when Jim said that I was not a Christian this goes against what he believes theologically thus it is inconsistent on his part. Agree?

James Banta
05-25-2011, 11:00 AM
Interesting that any 'Christian" believes there are "requirements" to be a Christian.

So, the question becomes--would you consider the Good Samaritan a "Christian" or not?

Since when has a christian here ever said that there are no "requirements to be a Christian.. If that were the case I would call you a Christian or a Moslem a Christian. You have to Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ as He is revealed in His word the Bible to be a Christian.. The Moslem believes that Jesus was a prophet, the member of the LDS church believes Him to be a created being that became a god by obedience to laws and ordinances.. No difference really, both say He is a creation of God.. But do they hold that He is GOD, THE GOD, the creator of all things? NO! As long as mormonism holds that doctrine of the nature of Jesus it is a non christian religion. As long as it hold the earmarks of a religious cult (Extra biblical revelation and strong centralized leadership) it is a cult.. Mormonism is therefore a non-christian cult..

As far as a born again child of God not being a Christian that is a misstatement that shows serious misunderstanding.. As long as there are such people here that cause division within the body of Christ they will be treated as an unbeliever.. Not that they are an unbeliever.. IHS jim

Billyray
05-25-2011, 11:05 AM
You have to Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ as He is revealed in His word the Bible to be a Christian.jim

Jim I believe in the Lord Jesus Christ yet you have labeled me a non Christian. Don't you think that this is an inconsistency on your part? Or do you believe that additional works/actions are required?

Billyray
05-25-2011, 11:11 AM
Both sides have labeled me a non Christian. I think that it is only fair that both sides give me (and others who might benefit) the requirements to be a Christian. This seems like a simple yet fair request. Don't you think?

dfoJC
05-25-2011, 11:52 AM
I agree.

Do you believe that being "born again" is a work of God and not of man, i.e. that God is the one responsible for regeneration?

Yes. When a person begins to study the Word and gains understanding of the whole Biblical concept of Salvation it is quite clear that it is, and only can be, a work of God. No man can "regenerate" himself. Men have tried, and in the end the "regeneration" is nothing more than a temporal behavioral change. No lasting effect. No relationship with God restored. Nothing but a very soulish undertaking. It in no way allows a man to enter into the new and living covenant which salvation is a part of.

Be blessed,

dfoJC

Billyray
05-25-2011, 11:55 AM
Yes. When a person begins to study the Word and gains understanding of the whole Biblical concept of Salvation it is quite clear that it is, and only can be, a work of God. No man can "regenerate" himself. Men have tried, and in the end the "regeneration" is nothing more than a temporal behavioral change. No lasting effect. No relationship with God restored. Nothing but a very soulish undertaking. It in no way allows a man to enter into the new and living covenant which salvation is a part of.

Be blessed,

dfoJC

I agree with you 100%. A man can't make himself born again rather it is a work of God.


KING JAMES VERSION
John 3
3Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

4Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

5Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

6That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

7Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

8The wind ****eth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

BigJulie
05-25-2011, 12:35 PM
I agree with you 100%. A man can't make himself born again rather it is a work of God.


KING JAMES VERSION
John 3
3Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

4Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

5Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

6That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

7Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

8The wind ****eth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

So, by your definition--was the Good Samaritan a "Christian" or not?

Billyray
05-25-2011, 12:51 PM
So, by your definition--was the Good Samaritan a "Christian" or not?

A person is a Christian if he has faith in Christ and is regenerated (regenerated then faith or faith then regenerated depending on an individual's belief). If he is not then he is not a Christian.

But you and Jim are the ones who throw around Christian verses non Christian so I am awaiting more information from both of you.

BigJulie
05-25-2011, 12:55 PM
A person is a Christian if he has faith in Christ and is regenerated (regenerated then faith or faith then regenerated depending on an individual's belief). If he is not then he is not a Christian.

But you and Jim are the ones who throw around Christian verses non Christian so I am awaiting more information from both of you.

So, according to you, was the Good Samaritan "regenerated" or not? What is your criteria to determine regeneration?

alanmolstad
05-25-2011, 06:57 PM
Alan could you clarify for me? We are Christians because of the resurrection or because we place our faith in Christ? And what else besides our faith is required?


Ok, the answer is this-

It don't matter squat what part of the Bible is true or what part is just a fake story, as long as the Resurrection of Christ is real.

This means that all of the bible could be totally true, 100% translated correctly, and yet it would be a moot point if the story of the Resurrection of Christ was a lie.

This also means that the whole Bible would be just a big fat lie, and you would not matter as long as the story of the resurrection was true.

This shows you that there is a Christian religion only because of the resurrection....take away the resurrection from our religion and the Christian Church becomes just a big joke...



We become Christians when we believe in the resurrection.

There is no other means.....
no other issue,,,
no other question,,,
no other teaching that we also have to believe in that makes us Christians.

The moment you believe in the resurrection of Christ, you become a member of the Body of Christ...and can be called "Christian"


The same goes for not believing the resurrection.

You can believe in all the other things we Christians believe in, but if you dont believe in the resurrection of Christ you are not a Christian....


There....that should be very clear now as to what I mean....
Any questions?.

alanmolstad
05-25-2011, 07:01 PM
Interesting that any 'Christian" believes there are "requirements" to be a Christian.

So, the question becomes--would you consider the Good Samaritan a "Christian" or not?

He is an example for how to live and how to act around people in need..

But i dont think Jesus was saying anything about the faith of the guy.

There was a conversation that Jesus had with a lady Samaritan and he tells her that her faith worships what they do not know, and then points her to the Jews that do worship what they know....


If this is the way Jesus felt about all Samaritans, then the answer to your question is "No",,,,,

some1you_know
05-25-2011, 08:24 PM
I don't believe Jesus' atonement is sufficient to absolve you of all personal responsibility.

Do you think God accepts filthy rags?

No Fig- I do not think filthy rags would be something that God would accept. Yet this is what the Bible tells us are works are to God. (Isiah 64: 6) Thank God we are saved by grace and not of works. (Ephesians 2: 8-9) I hope this helps. :)

alanmolstad
05-25-2011, 08:59 PM
I don't believe Jesus' atonement is sufficient to absolve you of all personal responsibility.


In many ways we are like Barabbas.
We know we are guilty.
We stand convicted.
We are condemned to die for our sin....to pay for full price for our evil.

Then just before the sentence is carried out, the door to our jail cell opens, and a guy walks in to take our place and we walk out and are set free.

Totally free from any of the consequences of our past actions...

Jesus took our place...the full punishment that was our, is paid for by him completely.



Jesus went to the cross.

Barabbas went home...

BigJulie
05-25-2011, 09:06 PM
He is an example for how to live and how to act around people in need..

But i dont think Jesus was saying anything about the faith of the guy.

There was a conversation that Jesus had with a lady Samaritan and he tells her that her faith worships what they do not know, and then points her to the Jews that do worship what they know....


If this is the way Jesus felt about all Samaritans, then the answer to your question is "No",,,,,

I find this interesting because this question---who is a Christian reminds me very much of the question asked of Christ by the Pharisees "who is my neighbor." The Pharisees wanted to define their "neighbor" by religion as well, so it is interesting to note that Christ defined "neighbor" by behavior and chose someone who was distinctly not of their religion to make His point. You say, " I don't think Jesus was saying anything about the faith of the guy"---I believe He was making that very point regarding what it means to follow Christ (have faith) because wasn't that the question in the first place?

alanmolstad
05-25-2011, 09:19 PM
I find this interesting ...

there was a clear point to the story, its found in the style Jesus used to teach here....

In today's more modern world we might change the story so that the "good neighbor" is the owner of a porno movie house.

or perhaps the ****sexual ...

The idea is that you take someone known to be at the far end of the religious/moral spectrum and make them the shining "example".


But we cant go to far with this story, for as we saw when Jesus talked to the Samaritan woman at the well, Jesus never said that the Samaritan religion was pleasing to God..
In fact Jesus seems to be very condemning of the religion of the Samaritans.

if I were to use the same story telling style that Jesus did, I could easly tell a story of coming to a Message Forum and finding only hate and anger from the so-called Christians, yet finding good conversation, reasonable arguments, and respectful manners from the Mormons....

If I had to give examples of what forum manners are the most pleasing to God?...it would be the manners of the Mormons......

BigJulie
05-25-2011, 09:31 PM
[
QUOTE=alanmolstad;88907]...

there was a clear point to the story, its found in the style Jesus used to teach here....

In today's more modern world we might change the story so that the "good neighbor" is the owner of a porno movie house.

or perhaps the ****sexual ... These don't really apply because Samaritan speaks to race/religion and not behavior. It might better apply to Mormon or Muslim or Jew. :)


The idea is that you take someone known to be at the far end of the religious/moral spectrum and make them the shining "example".


But we cant go to far with this story, for as we saw when Jesus talked to the Samaritan woman at the well, Jesus never said that the Samaritan religion was pleasing to God.. When Christ spoke to the Samaritan woman at the well, He discussed with her her behavior that was unpleasing to Him.


In fact Jesus seems to be very condemning of the religion of the Samaritans. The Samaritans are the mixed descendants of the Israelites who did not belong to the House of Judah or Benjamin. They were mixed with all of the "conquering nations." It is interesting to note that there are many prophecies regarding this "Northern Kingdom" and that they will eventually regain their birthright.


if I were to use the same story telling style that Jesus did, I could easly tell a story of coming to a Message Forum and finding only hate and anger from the so-called Christians, yet finding good conversation, reasonable arguments, and respectful manners from the Mormons....Is that what you are finding?


If I had to give examples of what forum manners are the most pleasing to God?...it would be the manners of the Mormons...... Thank you.

alanmolstad
05-26-2011, 03:04 AM
[ These don't really apply because Samaritan speaks to race/religion and not behavior. It might better apply to Mormon or Muslim or Jew. :)

.

No, and I want you to think about this for a moment....

Jesus picked out the most hated and unlikely person to serve as the only one in the story that acted rightly...

Jesus also took the religiously correct and the type of people who were considered the very people who should know how to act, and he made them the villains in the story...


So you now, in your own mind, try to think of the last type of person on earth you would expect to at in a correct manner?.....
The Drug dealer....?
The Abortion doctor...?
Darth Vader....?

It doesn't matter who, as long as they are the last person of earth the people listening to your story would expect you to use as a "shining example".........


This was the effect Jesus was shooting for by his story...he wanted people to see the contradiction in expectation and what they then heard...

Now think of the person you would expect to find acting correctly?
Police officer...."?
Teacher.....?
Mormon Prophet.....?

and make them the villain in your story....

THAT is when you see how hard it was for some people to listen to the story Jesus told.

Remember, at the end of this story, and by telling it, Jesus set himself up to be killed later...

ErikErik
05-26-2011, 05:06 AM
I don't believe Jesus' atonement is sufficient to absolve you of all personal responsibility.

Do you think God accepts filthy rags?

That's it right there fig. You believe Christ's sacrifice was insufficient and somehow its up to you to make up for what you believe He did not do. . Although its true we are responsible for our own actions, Christ's sacrifice was more than sufficient to save us if we put complete trust and faith in Him and not our works.

ErikErik
05-26-2011, 05:08 AM
Actions or works? No. We cannot earn our salvation. Eph. 2:10 says that Christ has prepared us to DO works but we are not saved BY works.







"Nothing in my hand I bring; simply to thy cross I cling."

I love your signature. It is so true. Thank you for posting it.

BigJulie
05-26-2011, 09:32 AM
No, and I want you to think about this for a moment....

Jesus picked out the most hated and unlikely person to serve as the only one in the story that acted rightly...

.

Read up on your history of the Samaritans and the Jews---it is more like the Hadfields and McCoys than like the puritans and the savages.

James Banta
05-26-2011, 09:55 AM
Read up on your history of the Samaritans and the Jews---it is more like the Hadfields and McCoys than like the puritans and the savages.

The Jews disliked the Samaritans not because of some feud but because they were no longer truly of Israel.. these are the few that came back to Palestine after years of captivity in ***yria. They no longer had the pure blood of Jacob within them. That was the reason.. Maybe you should do some study.. IHS jim

BigJulie
05-26-2011, 09:57 AM
The Jews disliked the Samaritans not because of some feud but because they were no longer truly of Israel.. these are the few that came back to Palestine after years of captivity in ***yria. They no longer had the pure blood of Jacob within them. That was the reason.. Maybe you should do some study.. IHS jim

That is exactly my point---they were mixed--half-bloods, but Israelites non-the-less. (And as such, contended with the Jews regarding the temple, the priesthood, etc.--that was the "feud" you don't think existed--but it is very real and it discussed via prophecies throughout the OT and even into the NT.)

Billyray
05-26-2011, 10:12 AM
So, according to you, was the Good Samaritan "regenerated" or not? What is your criteria to determine regeneration?

A Christian is one who is regenerated and has faith in Christ not simply one who does good works. There are many good people who do good works that are not Christian.

Billyray
05-26-2011, 10:13 AM
BigJ and Jim I am still waiting for your list of requirements that define who is and who is not a Christian.

BigJulie
05-26-2011, 10:19 AM
A Christian is one who is regenerated and has faith in Christ not simply one who does good works. There are many good people who do good works that are not Christian.

So, according to you, the Good Samaritan would clearly be labeled "not Christian."

Billyray
05-26-2011, 10:22 AM
So, according to you, the Good Samaritan would clearly be labeled "not Christian."

It is a parable BigJ. A person is not a Christian simply by doing good works.

BigJulie
05-26-2011, 10:23 AM
BigJ and Jim I am still waiting for your list of requirements that define who is and who is not a Christian.

Not Christian--I can give you a list from Galations

Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are [these]; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told [you] in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

BigJulie
05-26-2011, 10:25 AM
It is a parable BigJ. A person is not a Christian simply by doing good works.

Why did the Samaritan do what he did? Was it of God or something else?

Billyray
05-26-2011, 10:25 AM
Not Christian--I can give you a list from Galations

Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are [these]; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told [you] in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

So in order to be a Christian a person needs to obey the commandments. Is that a fair ***essment of your position?

Billyray
05-26-2011, 10:28 AM
Why did the Samaritan do what he did? Was it of God or something else?

What does it have to do with being a Christian? Many people including atheists follow some of the commandments and that doesn't make them a Christian.

BigJulie
05-26-2011, 10:41 AM
What does it have to do with being a Christian? Many people including atheists follow some of the commandments and that doesn't make them a Christian.

The point it, that Christ throughout the whole of the New Testament makes the argument against the Pharisees that it is not their "chosen" status that will save them, nor their study of the scriptures, but rather parable after parable shows that Christ looks to the heart and the behavior of a person to see what they really believe and if they follow Him or not. That is the very purpose for the story of the Good Samaritan--it was the Samaritan who followed Christ's teachings and not the Pharisees.

Matthew 21: 28-31 But what think ye? A [certain] man had two sons; and he came to the first, and said, Son, go work to day in my vineyard. He answered and said, I will not: but afterward he repented, and went. And he came to the second, and said likewise. And he answered and said, I [go], sir: and went not. Whether of them twain did the will of [his] father? They say unto him, The first. Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you.

So, who is Christian? Is VERY MUCH like asking "who is my neighbor."

Billyray
05-26-2011, 10:45 AM
The point it, that Christ throughout the whole of the New Testament makes the argument against the Pharisees that it is not their "chosen" status

The Jews as a group were never CHOSEN to salvation. This is completely different than the elect that we were talking about in the election thread that got deleted.

Billyray
05-26-2011, 10:47 AM
So, who is Christian? Is VERY MUCH like asking "who is my neighbor."

You believe that the Samaritan was a Christian. Make your case that he was a Christian. Give me the requirements. Which of course is the whole point of this thread.

BigJulie
05-26-2011, 10:53 AM
You believe that the Samaritan was a Christian. Make your case that he was a Christian. Give me the requirements. Which of course is the whole point of this thread.

He behaved in a such a way that was in accordance with someone who was following the direction of the Spirit. While the Samaritan may not have recognized what to call his belief, he certainly followed the spirit that was given to him.

Matt 25:14 For [the kingdom of heaven is] as a man travelling into a far country, [who] called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.


Mat 25:15 And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey.


Mat 25:16 Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made [them] other five talents.


Mat 25:17 And likewise he that [had received] two, he also gained other two.


Mat 25:18 But he that had received one went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord's money.


Mat 25:19 After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them.


Mat 25:20 And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more.


Mat 25:21 His lord said unto him, Well done, [thou] good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.


Mat 25:22 He also that had received two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other talents beside them.

Mat 25:23 His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.

Mat 25:24 Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:


Mat 25:25 And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, [there] thou hast [that is] thine.


Mat 25:26 His lord answered and said unto him, [Thou] wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:


Mat 25:27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and [then] at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.


Mat 25:28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give [it] unto him which hath ten talents.


Mat 25:29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.

Mat 25:30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

The Samaritan, while not having the opportunity to learn of the gospel of Jesus Christ in this life, will certainly have the opportunity at some point and will be judged according to the spirit that was given to him. To me, he was Christian as I define it--someone who follows the teachings/Spirit of Jesus Christ.

James Banta
05-26-2011, 10:53 AM
That is exactly my point---they were mixed--half-bloods, but Israelites non-the-less. (And as such, contended with the Jews regarding the temple, the priesthood, etc.--that was the "feud" you don't think existed--but it is very real and it discussed via prophecies throughout the OT and even into the NT.)

Those of the ten tribes that were taken away into ***yrian captivity invented temples and priesthood just like Joseph Smith did in his perversion of the scripture.. Jesus made that clear to the woman at the well telling her that the Samaritans were not the people whereby salvation comes.

John 4:22
You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews.
Jesus made it clear that they were NOT correct in saying they had rights to anything of God.. The Kings of Israel, ALL of THEM were idols worshipers. They appointed their own priests, built their own temples to these false God. And you call that a feud over priesthood and worship? Nope that is like saying that Egypt and Judah were feuding over those matters.. It's not correct.. It is a man made invention.. Maybe a Julie made invention.. I believe that is more probable. IHS jim

Billyray
05-26-2011, 10:56 AM
He behaved in a such a way that was in accordance with someone who was following the direction of the Spirit.

So a person who obeys rules is a Christian? Is that the requirements to be a Christian?

BigJulie
05-26-2011, 10:57 AM
So a person who obeys rules is a Christian? Is that the requirements to be a Christian?

A person who follows the SPIRIT of Christ is a Christian. Those who do not, are not.

Billyray
05-26-2011, 10:58 AM
A person who follows the SPIRIT of Christ is a Christian. Those who do not, are not.

So a person who FEELS that they are following a spirit is a Christian?

BigJulie
05-26-2011, 10:59 AM
Those of the ten tribes that were taken away into ***yrian captivity invented temples and priesthood just like Joseph Smith did in his perversion of the scripture.. Jesus made that clear to the woman at the well telling her that the Samaritans were not the people whereby salvation comes.

John 4:22
You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews.
Jesus made it clear that they were NOT correct in saying they had rights to anything of God.. The Kings of Israel, ALL of THEM were idols worshipers. They appointed their own priests, built their own temples to these false God. And you call that a feud over priesthood and worship? Nope that is like saying that Egypt and Judah were feuding over those matters.. It's not correct.. It is a man made invention.. Maybe a Julie made invention.. I believe that is more probable. IHS jim


Both the Norhern Kingdom and the Southern Kingdom went astray from God.

Hsa 5:12 Therefore [will] I [be] unto Ephraim as a moth, and to the house of Judah as rottenness.

And they fought many wars as well.

BigJulie
05-26-2011, 11:01 AM
So a person who FEELS that they are following a spirit is a Christian?

Is that what you think--the Good Samaritan "felt" like he was following the Spirit of Christ or was following the Spirit of Christ? Which one was it--was what he did good or just felt good?

Billyray
05-26-2011, 11:02 AM
Is that what you think--the Good Samaritan "felt" like he was following the Spirit of Christ or was following the Spirit of Christ? Which one was it--was what he did good or just felt good?
Do you believe that the Samaritan was Christian? If so what are the qualifications that he fulfilled?

Billyray
05-26-2011, 11:07 AM
BigJ this is not a hard question.

What are the requirements to be a Christian?

BigJulie
05-26-2011, 12:24 PM
BigJ this is not a hard question.

What are the requirements to be a Christian?

I answered this already--so again: A person who follows the SPIRIT of Christ is a Christian. Those who do not, are not.

How do we know when someone is following the Spirit?

Gal 5:23-24 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

Eph 5:9 (For the fruit of the Spirit [is] in all goodness and righteousness and truth;)

As the Good Samaritan displayed gentleness, and can be seen in his goodness, and righteousness, I say that he was following the Spirit of Christ regardless if he had been taught of Christ formally yet or not--he knew Him via the Spirit which he followed. This is the point that Christ was making to the Pharisees--it is those who follow his Spirit who is following the commandment to love their neighbor--not the definition of "neighbor" defined by the Pharisees based on their understanding of the scriptures. As I said, you question "who is a Christian" or what are the "requirements" to be considered a Christian is comparable to the same question asked by the Pharisees.

Billyray
05-26-2011, 12:38 PM
I answered this already--so again: A person who follows the SPIRIT of Christ is a Christian. Those who do not, are not.

What about faith in Christ, baptism, or following the commandments, or certain rules and regulations? These are not required according to your LDS theology?

BigJulie
05-26-2011, 12:40 PM
What about baptism, or following the commandments, or certain rules and regulations? These are not required?

When a person is baptized or follows the commandments, are they following the Spirit? (Of course they are. :)) Yet, not everyone will have the opportunity to get baptized in this life--just as the Samaritans were not to have the gospel taught to them until after the death of Christ. But all have the opportunity to follow the portion of the Spirit given to them (see parable of the talents) and God will bless and reward them as they follow the Spirit.

Billyray
05-26-2011, 12:42 PM
As the Good Samaritan displayed gentleness, and can be seen in his goodness, and righteousness, I say that he was following the Spirit of Christ regardless if he had been taught of Christ formally yet or not--he knew Him via the Spirit which he followed.

Works make a Christian? What about faith in Christ?

Billyray
05-26-2011, 12:44 PM
When a person is baptized or follows the commandments, are they following the Spirit? (Of course they are. :))

OK now we are getting somewhere. Following the spirit is code for

1. Baptism
2. Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost
3. Obeying the commandments

Are these the requirements for being a Christian? Anything else?

BigJulie
05-26-2011, 12:47 PM
Works make a Christian? What about faith in Christ?

Faith as defined by scripture is:

Hbr 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

So, the question becomes, can someone have faith in Christ who has never heard of Christ or learned of Christ? I point to the story of the Good Samaritan to show that someone can have faith in something hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. The Good Samaritan's faith rested in what the he knew in his heart to be true, but did not have absolute evidence of--that treating the man beaten on the side of the road was something right and good. He was following the commandment of Christ without being formally taught of Christ. Listen again to this parable:

Matthew 21: 28-31 But what think ye? A [certain] man had two sons; and he came to the first, and said, Son, go work to day in my vineyard. He answered and said, I will not: but afterward he repented, and went. And he came to the second, and said likewise. And he answered and said, I [go], sir: and went not. Whether of them twain did the will of [his] father? They say unto him, The first. Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you.

How is it that the publicans and the harlots can enter the kingdom of God before this "chosen" group? If faith of Jesus Christ is required---surely, somewhere, somehow, they must have been acting on faith with no formal knowledge of Christ.

Billyray
05-26-2011, 12:48 PM
They sure are. Jesus said those who are not born of water, baptism, cannot enter the kingdom of God. That should show how important baptism is.

So you would disagree with BigJ and say that the character in the parable i.e. the good Samaritan was not a Christian because he was not baptized?

Billyray
05-26-2011, 12:49 PM
How is it that the publicans and the harlots can enter the kingdom of God before this "chosen" group?

The Jews were never "chosen" as a group for salvation BigJ.

BigJulie
05-26-2011, 12:50 PM
OK now we are getting somewhere. Following the spirit is code for

1. Baptism
2. Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost
3. Obeying the commandments

Are these the requirements for being a Christian? Anything else?

For those who have heard of Christ and have been commanded to "repent and be baptized", then to ignore it would be as the man at the wedding who refused the wedding garment--it would have been better for them to not have heard the gospel of Jesus Christ and had the Spirit testify to them of what they should do.

BigJulie
05-26-2011, 12:50 PM
The Jews were never "chosen" as a group for salvation BigJ.

And just like you, they thought they were via how they read the scriptures.

Billyray
05-26-2011, 12:52 PM
Matthew 21: 28-31 . . . Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you.

1. Baptism
2. Laying on of hand for the gift of the Holy Ghost
3. Obeying the commandments


So you do or do not have to obey the commandments to be a Christian?

Billyray
05-26-2011, 12:53 PM
And just like you, they thought they were via how they read the scriptures.

They were NEVER "chosen" as a group for salvation.

BigJulie
05-26-2011, 12:54 PM
1. Baptism
2. Laying on of hand for the gift of the Holy Ghost
3. Obeying the commandments


So you do or do not have to obey the commandments to be a Christian?

The commandments that have been taught to you via the Spirit, yes, you need to obey (or repent often ;))...as I said in the parable of the talents, not all will be taught the gospel while on this earth, but all will have the opportunity to follow the Spirit as the Good Samaritan did. And then in the end, those faithful to what they have been given will all receive the same reward.

Billyray
05-26-2011, 12:54 PM
No, I would not disagree.

Why is the Samaritan Christian?

BigJulie
05-26-2011, 12:54 PM
They were NEVER "chosen" as a group for salvation.

But the point is, they thought they were, just as you do. :)

BigJulie
05-26-2011, 12:55 PM
Why is the Samaritan Christian?

Because he followed the Spirit that was given to him. He followed the teachings of Christ even if he never formally received them. That is the whole point of the parable--Christ teachings what it means to follow Him--I dont' think it was a mistake He chose a group who He knew specifically had not had the chance yet to hear of Him. The parable of the Good Samaritan makes the point that it is not how you (or the Pharisees) "define' what is good and right ("Christian) based on religion, but rather how Christ defines what is good and right (or following Him) based on behavior.

Billyray
05-26-2011, 12:58 PM
Because he followed the Spirit that was given to him. He followed the teachings of Christ even if he never formally received them.

Was he baptized?
Did he get the gift of the Holy Ghost?
Did he have faith in Christ?

BTW where does it say that he followed the Spirit?

Billyray
05-26-2011, 12:59 PM
Because the Samaritan still followed the commandment of Christ.

So an atheist can be a Christian as long as he follows a set of rules?

Billyray
05-26-2011, 01:00 PM
BigJ

You do not have a list of requirements to be a Christian do you? You are just making it up on the fly.

BigJulie
05-26-2011, 01:02 PM
So an atheist can be a Christian as long as he follows a set of rules?

If an athiest has never had the opportunity to hear of God or Christ or His teachings and has never rejected the Spirit given to him, yet acts on what he believes is good and right, He is more of a Christian than those who hear the gospel and behave badly. That is the point of the parable of the Two Sons.

Billyray
05-26-2011, 01:02 PM
An atheist is someone who deliberately denies that there is a God.

An agnostic can be a Christian as long as he follows the rules. Agree?

BigJulie
05-26-2011, 01:04 PM
An agnostic can be a Christian as long as he follows the rules. Agree?

Once again, as long as he has never had the opportunity to hear of God or Christ. Once someone has had the gospel presented and willingly rejects it, they are like the man at the wedding refusing to wear the wedding garment. They will be cast out and there will be much weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Billyray---we know that Christ commanded the disciples to not go to Samaria---hence, we know they the Samaritans did not have a chance yet to hear the gospel of Jesus Christ. The Good Samaritan is a good example on someone acting on the spirit that was given to them--even if it was just "two talents" in comparison with the fullness of the gospel.

Billyray
05-26-2011, 01:05 PM
Once again, as long as he has never had the opportunity to hear of God or Christ. Once someone has had the gospel presented and willingly rejects it, they are like the man at the wedding refusing to wear the wedding garment. They will be cast out and there will be much weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Can a person be a Christian without having faith in Christ?

BigJulie
05-26-2011, 01:08 PM
Can a person be a Christian without having faith in Christ?

Once again, what is faith in Christ?

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Anyone who acts on the Spirit given to them has faith in Christ regardless of whether or not they have been formally taught of Christ. Those who have learned to follow this Spirit will accept the gospel when presented if they have not been scared away by "conspiring men" or the craftiness of Satan and ignore this Spirit which they know.

We see that God's love is given to all of His creations and that He will reward or punish based on what He gives--because He did not send His Son to condemn the world, but to save it.

Billyray
05-26-2011, 01:09 PM
Once again, what is faith in Christ?

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.



Can a person be a Christian without having faith in Christ?

BigJulie
05-26-2011, 01:11 PM
Can a person be a Christian without having faith in Christ?

No--one must have faith in Jesus Christ, but not all have been taught this formally--some, like the Good Samaritan, have only been taught via the Spirit and follow that Spirit. Once again, that is the point of the whole parable--for the Pharisees to realize that their own definitions of right and wrong and good and bad are fruitless and it is God who teaches and God who defines.

This is why your thread of "what are the requirements to be Christian" is pointless--it starts with the wrong ***umption that you can know by "requirements" set by you.

Billyray
05-26-2011, 01:12 PM
No--one must have faith in Jesus Christ

So the Samaritan was not a Christian then correct?

Billyray
05-26-2011, 01:14 PM
1. Faith in Christ
2. Baptism
3. Laying on of hand for the gift of the Holy Ghost
4. Obeying the commandments

BigJ are these the requirements for being a Christian? Anything else?

BigJulie
05-26-2011, 01:15 PM
So the Samaritan was not a Christian then correct?

I think you must be ignoring all of my posts or not really reading them. Billyray---would Jesus Christ define the Good Samaritan as a follower of His commandments? Yes or no? Why did He use this example to the Pharisees?

BigJulie
05-26-2011, 01:15 PM
1. Faith in Christ
2. Baptism
3. Laying on of hand for the gift of the Holy Ghost
4. Obeying the commandments

BigJ are these the requirements for being a Christian? Anything else?

I am convinced you are having a conversation with yourself. You only hear what you want to hear and only see what you want to see. I cannot help you. I think if you find a good mirror, you can have this same conversation and be proud of the points you make. :)

Billyray
05-26-2011, 01:23 PM
Billyray---would Jesus Christ define the Good Samaritan as a follower of His commandments? Yes or no? Why did He use this example to the Pharisees?
BigJ the Samaritan did not have faith in Christ so by your own definition he is not a Christian unless of course you want to change your requirements.

Please give me a list of requirements. If you don't have one just tell me so.

BigJulie
05-26-2011, 01:24 PM
BigJ the Samaritan did not have faith in Christ so by your own definition he is not a Christian unless of course you want to change your requirements.

Please give me a list of requirements. If you don't have one just tell me so.

The Good Samaritan, by definition, had faith in Christ--or he would have not displayed the goodness that he did. (Or where do you think his goodness came from?)

Billyray
05-26-2011, 01:25 PM
I am convinced you are having a conversation with yourself.

I agree because you are not listening and you are being very wishy washy in your answers.

My definition of a Christian is one who is regenerated and has faith in the Christ of the Bible. Now your turn what are the requirements to be a Christian? This is a simple question BigJ.

BigJulie
05-26-2011, 01:27 PM
I agree because you are not listening and you are being very washy washy in your answers.

My definition of a Christian is one who is regenerated and has faith in the Christ of the Bible. Now your turn what are the requirements to be a Christian? This is a simple question BigJ.

I will ask you again, where did the goodness come from that the Good Samaritan displayed?

Billyray
05-26-2011, 01:29 PM
I will ask you again, where did the goodness come from that the Good Samaritan displayed?

The same place that goodness comes from when a atheist does good things but that does not make an atheist a Christian.

Now are you ever going to answer my question or are you just going to give me the run around?

BigJulie
05-26-2011, 01:32 PM
The same place that goodness comes when a atheist does good things but that does not make an atheist a Christian.

Now are you ever going to answer my question or are you just going to give me the run around?

And I will tell you one more time the parable of the Two Sons:

Matthew 21: 28-31 But what think ye? A [certain] man had two sons; and he came to the first, and said, Son, go work to day in my vineyard. He answered and said, I will not: but afterward he repented, and went. And he came to the second, and said likewise. And he answered and said, I [go], sir: and went not. Whether of them twain did the will of [his] father? They say unto him, The first. Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you.

In other words, an athiest who does good things displays more faith in Christ than those who profess faith in Christ, but do not.

Billyray
05-26-2011, 01:34 PM
In other words, an athiest who does good things displays more faith in Christ than those who profess faith in Christ, but do not.

Now that is the quote of the week. I think I will use that for my signature line.

BigJulie
05-26-2011, 01:36 PM
Now that is the quote of the week. I think I will use that for my signature line.

I think you could use this line as well: "Whether of them twain did the will of [his] father? They say unto him, The first. Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you."--because it Christ saying the same thing.

Billyray
05-26-2011, 01:37 PM
BigJ what are the requirements to be a Christian?

BigJulie
05-26-2011, 01:40 PM
BigJ what are the requirements to be a Christian?

Billyray, I have told you already. You are beginning to repeat questions.

James Banta
05-26-2011, 02:49 PM
Both the Norhern Kingdom and the Southern Kingdom went astray from God.

Hsa 5:12 Therefore [will] I [be] unto Ephraim as a moth, and to the house of Judah as rottenness.

And they fought many wars as well.

While the South (Judah) had some righteous kings, the north did NOT.. Right from the start the king of Israel (Jeroboam) took up other gods making Israel sin.. He appointed priest and they offered sacrifice to two calves of gold, and said unto them, It is too much for you to go up to Jerusalem: behold thy gods, O Israel, which brought thee up out of the land of Egypt. And he made an high places, and made priests of the lowest of the people, which were not of the sons of Levi (1Kings 12).. Therefore God sold Israel into ***yria long before Babylon came down to punish Judah for Her sin.. Israel was ***imilated into ***yria while Judah kept her national iden***y.. For within Judah was Jerusalem, and within Jerusalem was the Temple, the reason for priesthood.

Building high places for Israel to worship was evil in the sight of God.. There is one and only one place on the whole earth where God has chosen to have a house built to His name.. Mormonism has chosen the way of Jeroboam and has built many high places to worship it's gods.. If you think this line of scripture can prove anything for mormonism you have no been shown that it is just the opposite. It disproves any religion that will build a high place anyplace but the place God has chosen.. Even after the LDS church has built many temples the place God has chosen to put His name to have a house built for His glory remains empty and in ruin.. And the only reason for this is that mormonism follows the same path as Jeroboam in building High Places to it's false gods.. IHS jim

BigJulie
05-26-2011, 03:35 PM
While the South (Judah) had some righteous kings, the north did NOT.. Right from the start the king of Israel (Jeroboam) took up other gods making Israel sin.. He appointed priest and they offered sacrifice to two calves of gold, and said unto them, It is too much for you to go up to Jerusalem: behold thy gods, O Israel, which brought thee up out of the land of Egypt. And he made an high places, and made priests of the lowest of the people, which were not of the sons of Levi (1Kings 12).. Therefore God sold Israel into ***yria long before Babylon came down to punish Judah for Her sin.. Israel was ***imilated into ***yria while Judah kept her national iden***y.. For within Judah was Jerusalem, and within Jerusalem was the Temple, the reason for priesthood.

Building high places for Israel to worship was evil in the sight of God.. There is one and only one place on the whole earth where God has chosen to have a house built to His name.. Mormonism has chosen the way of Jeroboam and has built many high places to worship it's gods.. If you think this line of scripture can prove anything for mormonism you have no been shown that it is just the opposite. It disproves any religion that will build a high place anyplace but the place God has chosen.. Even after the LDS church has built many temples the place God has chosen to put His name to have a house built for His glory remains empty and in ruin.. And the only reason for this is that mormonism follows the same path as Jeroboam in building High Places to it's false gods.. IHS jim

The ruler will come out of Judah, but the birthright belongs to Ephraim. The Northern tribe has been "lost", but it will not stay that way. Each tribe will be gathered in again and Christ will sit as their King. These are the prophecies of the last days.

Isa 11:13 The envy also of Ephraim shall depart, and the adversaries of Judah shall be cut off: Ephraim shall not envy Judah, and Judah shall not vex Ephraim.

Also, Jeruselum was the only place for the temple of the Old Testament, but in the last days, God has restored His gospel and it no longer is subject to only those in Jeruselum.

Isa 2:2 And it shall come to p*** in the last days, [that] the mountain of the LORD'S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.

Isa 2:3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.

Billyray
05-26-2011, 05:08 PM
Billyray, I have told you already.

How about a quick summary for me BigJ because you have waffled back and forth in your answers.

BigJ what are the requirements to be a Christian?

BigJulie
05-26-2011, 06:38 PM
How about a quick summary for me BigJ because you have waffled back and forth in your answers.

BigJ what are the requirements to be a Christian?

First off, you question: What are the requirements to be a Christian?-- is the same type of question What are the requirements to be a "neighbor"?

So, with that in mind, I will answer you with the exact same answer that I have answered twice before: A person who follows the SPIRIT of Christ is a Christian. Those who do not, are not.

Who is the neighbor? According to Christ, it is the one who acts like a neighbor. Likewise Christ teaches: Jhn 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Billyray
05-26-2011, 06:42 PM
First off, you question: What are the requirements to be a Christian?-- is the same type of question What are the requirements to be a "neighbor"?

So, with that in mind, I will answer you with the exact same answer that I have answered twice before: A person who follows the SPIRIT of Christ is a Christian. Those who do not, are not.

Who is the neighbor? According to Christ, it is the one who acts like a neighbor. Likewise Christ teaches: Jhn 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Is faith in Christ required?

Is baptism required?

Is the laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost required?

Is obedience to the commandments required?

BigJulie
05-26-2011, 06:51 PM
Is faith in Christ required?

Is baptism required?

Is the laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost required?

Is obedience to the commandments required?

What do you not understand about following the Spirit? You remind me of the Pharisees--how many steps can one walk and the Sabbath? Who is my neighbor? Can a man re-enter his mother's womb? Do I give to God or to Ceasar? All of these questions apply to those who do not know what it means to follow the Spirit.

Billyray
05-26-2011, 06:55 PM
What do you not understand about following the Spirit?

I follow the spirit and the only thing required to be Christian is to be regenerated and have faith in Christ. Am I wrong? Is anything else required?

BigJulie
05-26-2011, 07:01 PM
I follow the spirit and the only thing required to be Christian is to be regenerated and have faith in Christ. Am I wrong? Is anything else required?

You say you follow the spirit. That is the point. Let me give to you this parable again:

Matthew 21: 28-31 But what think ye? A [certain] man had two sons; and he came to the first, and said, Son, go work to day in my vineyard. He answered and said, I will not: but afterward he repented, and went. And he came to the second, and said likewise. And he answered and said, I [go], sir: and went not. Whether of them twain did the will of [his] father? They say unto him, The first. Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you.

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

I have said it before and I will say it again, you have not convinced me that you are Christian by your at***udes and behaviors here in this forum. You can say you are all you want, I just don't see it. (Other "Christians" here, yes---you, no.)

Billyray
05-26-2011, 07:05 PM
I have said it before and I will say it again, you have not convinced me that you are Christian by your at***udes and behaviors here in this forum.

This is the whole point of this thread BigJ.

What are the requirements to be a Christian? BTW how many times do I have to ask you before you give me a real answer?

BigJulie
05-26-2011, 07:07 PM
This is the whole point of this thread BigJ.

What are the requirements to be a Christian? BTW how many times do I have to ask you before you give me a real answer?

I have given you the answer 3 times now. Oh--so you want "the real answer"---please, by all means, tell me what it is since you seem to think you know.

BigJulie
05-26-2011, 07:15 PM
Let me see if I can make this more clear. :)

Christ taught:

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

So, my answer to the requirements question: A person who follows the SPIRIT of Christ is a Christian. Those who do not, are not.

Just so I make myself really clear...

"He that doeth the will of my Father" = "A person who follows the SPIRIT."

or said another way:

"He that doeth the will of my Father" equals, is the same as "A person who follows the SPIRIT."

Billyray
05-26-2011, 07:16 PM
I have given you the answer 3 times now. Oh--so you want "the real answer"---please, by all means, tell me what it is since you seem to think you know.

The spirit testifies to me through his word that we are saved by faith in Christ. I have faith in Christ and have been regenerated. Does this make me a Christian or are other things required?

Billyray
05-26-2011, 07:18 PM
Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.


So requirements for being a Christian include obedience to the commandments?

Anything else?

BigJulie
05-26-2011, 07:21 PM
The spirit testifies to me through his word that we are saved by faith in Christ. I have faith in Christ and have been regenerated. Does this make me a Christian or are other things required?

Once again...Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

So, no, I am not convinced that you have been "regenerated". Sorry.

BigJulie
05-26-2011, 07:22 PM
So requirements for being a Christian include obedience to the commandments?

Anything else?

Well, seeing as these are the words of Christ that you do this if you love Him, maybe you need to talk to Him. :D:D

It is also interesting to note that you got "requirements for being a Christian include obedience to the commandments" from this: Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Okay, Billyray--you need to obey the commandments to be a Christian--according to your understanding of Matt 7:21. You understanding of "doing the will of the Father" must be the same as "obedience to the commandments...if that right? :)

Billyray
05-26-2011, 07:25 PM
So, no, I am not convinced that you have been "regenerated". Sorry.

So faith in Christ is not enough to make me a Christian? I understand that you don't believe that. What else is required?

Billyray
05-26-2011, 07:27 PM
Well, seeing as these are the words of Christ that you do this if you love Him, maybe you need to talk to Him.

Are obedience to the commandment a requirement for being a Christian?

BigJulie
05-26-2011, 07:28 PM
Are obedience to the commandment a requirement for being a Christian?

That seems to be the way you intrepret the scripture...I will repeat:

It is also interesting to note that you got "requirements for being a Christian include obedience to the commandments" from this: Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Okay, Billyray--you need to obey the commandments to be a Christian--according to your understanding of Matt 7:21. You understanding of "doing the will of the Father" must be the same as "obedience to the commandments...if that right?

BigJulie
05-26-2011, 07:29 PM
So faith in Christ is not enough to make me a Christian? I understand that you don't believe that. What else is required?

Once again...Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Maybe you need to answer what "faith in Christ" is first.

Billyray
05-26-2011, 07:31 PM
Okay, Billyray--you need to obey the commandments to be a Christian--according to your understanding of Matt 7:21. You understanding of "doing the will of the Father" must be the same as "obedience to the commandments...if that right?
I am trying to get you to tell me the requirements and you are not being very clear with me. Please just be honest and give me the requirements. Fair enough?

BigJulie
05-26-2011, 07:36 PM
I am trying to get you to tell me the requirements and you are not being very clear with me. Please just be honest and give me the requirements. Fair enough?

Billyray--only God can give you the requirements and to think you can get them from me is futile. This really is between you and God. I tell you what Christ tells me--that you need to do the will of the Father. The very fact that you think you need some type of laundry list from me convinces me you have yet to figure this out with God. Sorry.

Billyray
05-26-2011, 07:40 PM
Maybe you need to answer what "faith in Christ" is first.

Putting complete trust in Christ that he will save me from sins.

BigJulie
05-26-2011, 07:41 PM
Putting complete trust in Christ that he will save me from sins.

And what does this look like to you? Does it mean that you follow the Spirit also known as doing the will of the Father?

Billyray
05-26-2011, 07:43 PM
Billyray--only God can give you the requirements and to think you can get them from me is futile.

He has given the requirements. Those who place their faith in Christ and are born again are Christians.

Billyray
05-26-2011, 07:44 PM
And what does this look like to you?

It looks like someone who puts their complete trust in Christ for their salvation.

BigJulie
05-26-2011, 07:46 PM
It looks like someone who puts their complete trust in Christ for their salvation.

And would that be someone who follows the spirit and does the will of the Father? (Or do they do their own thing and not worry about following the spirit and doing the will of the Father-rather trusting in what they want to do and what they think will work? :))

Billyray
05-26-2011, 08:03 PM
And would that be someone who follows the spirit and does the will of the Father? (Or do they do their own thing and not worry about following the spirit and doing the will of the Father-rather trusting in what they want to do and what they think will work?
Because Christians are regenerated they have a naturally desire to follow God.

Billyray
05-26-2011, 08:16 PM
I am not convinced that you have been "regenerated".

Now we are starting to get somewhere.

How does a person become regenerated or born again?

BigJulie
05-26-2011, 09:47 PM
Because Christians are regenerated they have a naturally desire to follow God.

And what does it look like when someone follows God?

Billyray
05-26-2011, 09:55 PM
And what does it look like when someone follows God?
Each person looks a little bit different. Some are very Godly and some are not so Godly such as the thief on the cross. Both equally saved and both Christian.

Billyray
05-26-2011, 09:56 PM
How does a person become regenerated or born again?

BigJulie
05-26-2011, 09:57 PM
Each person looks a little bit different. Some are very Godly and some are not so Godly such as the thief on the cross. Both equally saved and both Christian.

How you can tell if someone is "regenerated" or not if they all look so different? (Would the thief on the cross have looked more similar to other--can I say, regenerates--if he had more time off the cross?)

BigJulie
05-26-2011, 09:59 PM
How does a person become regenerated or born again?

Oh, we are back to this discussion. I saw in one of your last posts that you believe NOW that either faith first and then regenerate or others can be regenerate first and then faith. Which is it? Or do you, does it not matter.

Billyray
05-26-2011, 10:07 PM
How you can tell if someone is "regenerated" or not if they all look so different?
As an outsider looking in you and I can't know for sure who is regenerated or who is unregenerate. Only God knows for sure. There will be wheat and tares sitting next to each other in church each Sunday, and they may superficially look quite similar. However it is true that a person who is regenerated will become more and more Christ like over time a process that is called sanctification. But each Christian starts out at his own starting point and that starting point might look quite un Christian to those critical of outward appearances like you.

BigJulie
05-26-2011, 10:08 PM
As an outsider looking in you and I can't know for sure who is regenerated or who is unregenerate. Only God knows for sure. There will be wheat and tares sitting next to each other in church each Sunday, and they may superficially look quite similar. However it is true that a person who is regenerated will become more and more Christ like over time a process that is called sanctification. But each Christian starts out at his own starting point and that starting point might look quite un Christian to those critical of outward appearances like you.

Good, I guess that is my point, you don't seem to resemble Christ to me in the way you post. Sorry.

Billyray
05-26-2011, 10:11 PM
Oh, we are back to this discussion. I saw in one of your last posts that you believe NOW that either faith first and then regenerate or others can be regenerate first and then faith. Which is it? Or do you, does it not matter.

You know exactly what I believe. A person is regenerated first which then leads to faith in Christ. Erik etc. believe faith precedes regeneration. We had a entire thread about this so I am sure you remember. Now can you answer my question?

BigJ how does a person become regenerated or born again?

Billyray
05-26-2011, 10:13 PM
Good, I guess that is my point, you don't seem to resemble Christ to me in the way you post. Sorry.

You don't think that I am a Christian and I know that you are not a Christian. So now that we have got that out of the way maybe we can discuss the issues. OK?

BigJulie
05-26-2011, 10:14 PM
You know exactly what I believe. A person is regenerated first which then leads to faith in Christ. Erik etc. believe faith precedes regeneration. We had a entire thread about this so I am sure you remember. Now can you answer my question?

BigJ how does a person become regenerated or born again?

"You know exactly what I believe." Your politeness leads me to believe you are not regenerate because, as you said, you don't resemble Christ. I just can't picture Him saying that to me when I ask Him a question. ;)

BigJulie
05-26-2011, 10:15 PM
You don't think that I am a Christian and I know that you are not a Christian. So now that we have got that out of the way maybe we can discuss the issues. OK?

And because you "know" and because I know for sure that you are not "God"---once again, another example of someone who does not resemble Christ. ;)

Billyray
05-26-2011, 10:18 PM
And because you "know"
Ready to talk about the issues BigJ?

How do you become regenerated or born again?

Billyray
05-26-2011, 10:23 PM
you are not regenerate

I know that you believe that I am regenerated just like you know that I believe you are not Christian. Now we have got that under our belt again let's discuss regeneration.

How do you become born again?

alanmolstad
05-27-2011, 03:15 AM
We are "Christians" only because of the resurrection.

TheSword99
05-27-2011, 06:23 AM
Oh, we are back to this discussion. I saw in one of your last posts that you believe NOW that either faith first and then regenerate or others can be regenerate first and then faith. Which is it? Or do you, does it not matter.


Regeneration means that one has been born again or born from above (John 3:3, 5, 7, 8). Conversion occurs when sinners turn to God in repentance and faith for salvation. Sinners are converted when they repent of their sins and turn to faith in Jesus Christ, trusting in him for the forgiveness of their sins.

Calvinists believe that a man is regenerated or has eternal life before he repents or believes. This is not Biblical.

Regeneration does not precede faith.

John 20:31 .that BELIEVING YE MIGHT HAVE LIFE through his name. --

John 3:36 he that BELIEVETH NOT the Son SHALL NOT SEE LIFE .

1 Tim. 1:16 . to them which should hereafter BELIEVE on him TO LIFE everlasting. --



Regeneration or being born again means that a sinner, dead in tresp***es and sins, becomes alive spiritually as a child of God. The Scriptures are clear that faith or belief precedes spiritual rebirth or regeneration.This is contrary to those, who believe the elect is regenerated BEFORE faith.



REPENT ye therefore, and BE CONVERTED, THAT YOUR SINS may be blotted out. Acts 3:19

Through his name whosoever BELIEVETH in him SHALL RECEIVE REMISSION OF SINS. Acts 10:43

They should REPENT and TURN TO GOD, and do works meet for repentance. Acts 26:20

Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance UNTO LIFE . Acts 11:18

Billyray
05-27-2011, 07:32 AM
Regeneration means that one has been born again or born from above (John 3:3, 5, 7, 8). Conversion occurs when sinners turn to God in repentance and faith for salvation. . . Calvinists believe that a man is regenerated or has eternal life before he repents or believes. This is not Biblical.

Sword you have your facts wrong. We both believe that we are justified AFTER conversion which is faith and repentance. However I do agree with you in that regeneration is being spiritually born and conversion is repentance and faith. We just differ on the order that regeneration and conversion take place.

Reformed camp, the ordo salutis is
1) election
2) predestination
3) gospel call
4) inward call
5) regeneration
6) conversion (faith & repentance)
7) justification
8) sanctification
9) glorification

Arminian camp, the ordo salutis is
1) outward call
2) faith/election
3) repentance
4) regeneration
5) justification
6) perseverance
7) glorification

source monergism.com

Billyray
05-27-2011, 07:41 AM
delete personal comment

Billyray
05-27-2011, 07:44 AM
I thought you both claim to be Christians. If you believe in the Bible then you should have no problem agreeing instantly right?

On this point we disagree.

Billyray
05-27-2011, 07:51 AM
Regeneration does not precede faith.

John 20:31 .that BELIEVING YE MIGHT HAVE LIFE through his name. --

John 3:36 he that BELIEVETH NOT the Son SHALL NOT SEE LIFE .

1 Tim. 1:16 . to them which should hereafter BELIEVE on him TO LIFE everlasting. --

REPENT ye therefore, and BE CONVERTED, THAT YOUR SINS may be blotted out. Acts 3:19

Notice that your verses are speaking of conversion which is repentance and faith. We both believe that repentance and faith (conversion) precedes justification.

Billyray
05-27-2011, 07:52 AM
Now do you see the problem?

I absolutely see the problem. Both of us can't be right.

But this doesn't really help your case because our beliefs are very close and yours are miles apart. LDS beliefs are not consistent with what the Bible teaches.

Billyray
05-27-2011, 07:59 AM
. Our beliefs are consistent with the Bible . . .

Nope they most certainly not. I was Mormon so don't try and buffalo me.

akaSeerone
05-27-2011, 08:11 AM
I'm not the one with the problem. You and Sword disagree so you two are with the problem. Our beliefs are consistent with the Bible while you and Sword can't decide what to believe.Strange you would say that....Mormonism teaches that Jesus and Satan are brothers, yet the Bible tells us that Jesus created Satan, so your beliefs are not consistent with the Bible and this is just one of a plethora of Mormonism's inconsistencies with the Bible.

Andy

Billyray
05-27-2011, 08:16 AM
Yea, they do.

Do you believe that God is married?

Do you believe that God the Father became a God?

Do you believe that God the Father was once a man?

Do you believe in polytheism?

Do you believe that the NT members held the Melchizekek priesthood?

I could go on but you get my point.

BigJulie
05-27-2011, 08:18 AM
I'm not the one with the problem. You and Sword disagree so you two are with the problem. Our beliefs are consistent with the Bible while you and Sword can't decide what to believe.

BibleChristian, I agree with you and agree that our beliefs are consistent with the Bible. :)

I am curious if Billyray's description of a "Christian" or the Swords or even Alan's would include Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, David, Moses, Joshua, etc. as "Christians"? Maybe my definiiton is too broad for them---someone who follows the Spirit. I mean, as Moses wrote the first five books of the Bible--there would be no "Bible" to agree or disagree about for most of these men.

BigJulie
05-27-2011, 08:20 AM
Strange you would say that....Mormonism teaches that Jesus and Satan are brothers, yet the Bible tells us that Jesus created Satan, so your beliefs are not consistent with the Bible and this is just one of a plethora of Mormonism's inconsistencies with the Bible.

Andy

No, it is consistent with Bible teachings. God does a lot of teaching by symbollism. Why do you think the story of Cain and Abel is included in the Bible as important? Why was Abel's sacrifice accepted and why was Cain's not? Why did Cain kill Abel? It is there Andy.

Billyray
05-27-2011, 08:20 AM
BibleChristian, I agree with you and agree that our beliefs are consistent with the Bible.

BigJ proclaims it therefore it is.

BigJ how do you become born again?

BigJulie
05-27-2011, 08:20 AM
BigJ proclaims it therefore it is.

BigJ how do you become born again?

Why ask me when you have yet to work this out with your "Christian" friends? :) (Especially in light of the ***le of this thread and it is your definition that one must be born again to be Christian--not mine.)

Billyray
05-27-2011, 08:23 AM
Billyray
Do you believe that God is married?

biblicalchristian
No. This was Orson Hyde's personal belief.


Really? So you don't believe that you have a mother in heaven?

BigJulie
05-27-2011, 08:25 AM
Really? So you don't believe that you have a mother in heaven?

Oh, we have gone in circles about this so many times. We have discussion, and we have logical reasoning, but we have no revelation regarding this.

Billyray, I thought you started this thread to talk about "requirements to be a Christian". What happened? Why the divergence?

Billyray
05-27-2011, 08:25 AM
Billyray
Do you believe that God the Father became a God?

Biblicalchristian
Early Christianity certainly taught this.



So I take that as a yes. Do you have any support from the scripture that God was once a man?

(BTW I don't take my theology from extra Biblical sources even though these sources can be useful and edifying)

Billyray
05-27-2011, 08:27 AM
Oh, we have gone in circles about this so many times.

Oh. I see a division between you and biblicalchristian. One of you is right and the other is wrong. This must mean the Mormonism is false.

BigJulie
05-27-2011, 08:28 AM
If you put people like Abraham in their days then they were part of Judaism but if they were alive today then yea since they were men of God.

So, I guess for me---I understand "Christian" on a broader term--those who follow the Spirit and they can be anywhere or anytime on this earth and anywhere in their path to understanding God in His fullness. Yes, that is a very broad description, but it keeps me from not judging others by anything but their "Christlike" behavior. For myself, I can see when I am being "Christian" or not based on the spirit that I follow, and this helps me know when I need to repent.

BigJulie
05-27-2011, 08:30 AM
Oh. I see a division between you and biblicalchristian. One of you is right and the other is wrong. This must mean the Mormonism is false.

No, I think we are on the same page with this. Sorry. I don't see a disagreement.

Billyray
05-27-2011, 08:31 AM
Why ask me when you have yet to work this out with your "Christian" friends?

Because we agree with other that regeneration is an act of God causing spiritual life in someone who before that was spiritually dead. You disagree I presume. And I want to know what you believe. I certainly have told you what I believe so it is only fair to tell me what you believe.

How does a person become born again?

Billyray
05-27-2011, 08:32 AM
What division? I agree with Julie that you keep going over and over the same stuff.

You don't believe that there is a Mother in heaven. But I bet BigJ is smart enough to know that there is according to Mormonism. Thus you disagree with each other. Ask her and she what she says.

James Banta
05-27-2011, 08:34 AM
The ruler will come out of Judah, but the birthright belongs to Ephraim. The Northern tribe has been "lost", but it will not stay that way. Each tribe will be gathered in again and Christ will sit as their King. These are the prophecies of the last days.

Isa 11:13 The envy also of Ephraim shall depart, and the adversaries of Judah shall be cut off: Ephraim shall not envy Judah, and Judah shall not vex Ephraim.

Also, Jeruselum was the only place for the temple of the Old Testament, but in the last days, God has restored His gospel and it no longer is subject to only those in Jeruselum.

Isa 2:2 And it shall come to p*** in the last days, [that] the mountain of the LORD'S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.

Isa 2:3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.

Great references too bad they don't support your points.. Isaiah 11:13 doesn't say that the birthright (what ever you want to call the birthright) was given to Ephraim over the other tribes of Israel.. All this p***age says is that Judah and Ephraim (Joseph) will no longer be enemies but will live together in peace.. Where is a birthright in that?

Zion is the name David gave to His strong hold. It is the old city that area of Jerusalem around the Temple. Temple mount is the mountain of the Lords' house..Out of Zion the Capital of the nation will come the Law and the word of the Lord from His Temple.. Not one word that there will be any more than ONE place that God will establish a house for Himself.. Jerusalem is the Only site that a Temple was ever commanded to be built.. All other places are false sites. There never was any more than ONE Temple. To establish other is to commit the same sin as Jeroboam when he made Israel sin.. You lack of knowledge of these things is showing up like crystal.. All you know is what false teaches have told you.. You use these references like they mean two different places it is clear that Zion is the mountain of the Lord's house and it is in Jerusalem.. IHS jim

Billyray
05-27-2011, 08:35 AM
That's odd. I thought it was up to the critics to tell us what we believe.

BigJ doesn't seem to want to answer so maybe you can take a stab at it.

How do you become born again?

BigJulie
05-27-2011, 08:35 AM
Because we agree with other that regeneration is an act of God causing spiritual life in someone who before that was spiritually dead. You disagree I presume. And I want to know what you believe. I certainly have told you what I believe so it is only fair to tell me what you believe.

How does a person become born again?

To me born again refers to baptism--when one has been washed clean and given the gift of the Holy Ghost. This occurs when they are taught the gospel and seek for themselves to know the truthfullness of it. Once they have a witness from the Holy Ghost, then they keep the commandment to "repent and be baptized"--once again by choice. Once baptized, they are now "clean" and are prepared to receive the Gift of the Holy Ghost. This gift starts the "regeneration" process as you call it or the perfecting process. Those who continue on this path are santified.

Do you agree BibleChristian? :D:D

BigJulie
05-27-2011, 08:36 AM
[QUOTE=James Banta;89202]Great references too bad they don't support your points.. Isaiah 11:13 doesn't say that the birthright (what ever you want to call the birthright) was given to Ephraim over the other tribes of Israel.. Go back to Jacob and see who he gave the birthright to and how (and who got the doubleportion, etc.)

BigJulie
05-27-2011, 08:42 AM
You don't believe that there is a Mother in heaven. But I bet BigJ is smart enough to know that there is according to Mormonism. Thus you disagree with each other. Ask her and she what she says.

I agree with BibleChristian---we have no revelation concerning a Mother in Heaven. That seems simple enough.

Billyray
05-27-2011, 08:43 AM
To me born again refers to baptism--when one has been washed clean and given the gift of the Holy Ghost. This occurs when they are taught the gospel and seek for themselves to know the truthfullness of it. Once they have a witness from the Holy Ghost, then they keep the commandment to "repent and be baptized"--once again by choice. Once baptized, they are now "clean" and are prepared to receive the Gift of the Holy Ghost. This gift starts the "regeneration" process as you call it or the perfecting process. Those who continue on this path are santified.


1. Taught the gospel
2. Keep the commandments
3. Repentance to a priesthood authority
4. Baptism
5. Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost
6. Keep the commandments
7. This STARTS the regeneration process.


Since you said the above steps STARTS the regeneration process this means that at this point a person is not entirely born again. When is a person fully born again or regenerated?

Do you define a Christian as someone who has done the above 6 steps?

Billyray
05-27-2011, 08:46 AM
I agree with BibleChristian---we have no revelation concerning a Mother in Heaven. That seems simple enough.

Did I get this right that both of you deny a Mother in Heaven?

Billyray
05-27-2011, 08:47 AM
Being born again and being a Christian are 2 different things. Being born again is when you become a Christian.

When do you become born again and how do you become born again?

James Banta
05-27-2011, 09:04 AM
[QUOTE] Go back to Jacob and see who he gave the birthright to and how (and who got the doubleportion, etc.)

You are making a claim here so you show me the birthright claim you are trying to make.. IHS jim

Billyray
05-27-2011, 09:25 AM
Billyray
Do you believe in polytheism?

biblicalchristian
No. We're monotheistic. . . .
Do you believe that God the Father is a God?
Do you believe that God the Son is a God?
Do you believe that God the Holy Spirit is a God?
Do you believe that God the Father had a God?

BigJulie
05-27-2011, 09:33 AM
?

Do you define a Christian as someone who has done the above 6 steps?

Billyray, you keep wanting to take me down a path in which you define a Christian. Once again, I define a Christian as someone who follows the Spirit.

BigJulie
05-27-2011, 09:36 AM
[QUOTE=BigJulie;89205]

You are making a claim here so you show me the birthright claim you are trying to make.. IHS jim

This is an evangelical site (not LDS) explaining the birthright. I hope it helps you to understand this stuff in a light that you can see and not be defensive about it.

http://www.bibletruthonline.com/birthrightpromisesABRAHAMtoEPHRAIM.htm

BigJulie
05-27-2011, 09:39 AM
Do you believe that God the Father is a God?
Do you believe that God the Son is a God?
Do you believe that God the Holy Spirit is a God?
Do you believe that God the Father had a God?

The Father, Son, and Holy Ghost make up the Godhead. They act as one, but they are individual and distinct beings. This can be seen throughout the scriptures in Elohim (meaning gods plurall literally) making man in "our image." This can be seen in the numerous claims of Jesus Christ and God the Father acknowledging that He is "well pleased" with the Son. This can be seen when Stephen dies and sees Christ standing on the righthand of God. This can be seen when we pray to the Father, in the name of the Son, and receive answers via the Holy Ghost.

Billyray
05-27-2011, 09:43 AM
The Father, Son, and Holy Ghost make up the Godhead. They act as one, but they are individual and distinct beings.

So you are a polytheist? Agree?

Billyray
05-27-2011, 09:44 AM
Once again, I define a Christian as someone who follows the Spirit.

If a person comes to you and says that they follow a spirit then they are Christian even if they are not baptized or have faith in Christ?

In the parable of the good Samaritan you still believe that the good Samaritan was a Christian?

Billyray
05-27-2011, 09:50 AM
[Per BigJ's post about regeneration/born again]
1. Taught the gospel
2. Keep the commandments
3. Repentance to a priesthood authority
4. Baptism
5. Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost
6. Keep the commandments
7. This STARTS the regeneration process.
. . .

BigJ can a person be a Christian without completing any of the above 6 steps as long as that person feels that he is following the spirit?

When is a person fully born again or regenerated?

BigJulie
05-27-2011, 10:00 AM
If a person comes to you and says that they follow a spirit then they are Christian even if they are not baptized or have faith in Christ?

In the parable of the good Samaritan you still believe that the good Samaritan was a Christian?

Regarding the Good Samaritan, Christ said regarding Samaria--Mat 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into [any] city of the Samaritans enter ye not:

So, the Good Samaritan could not have heard of Jesus Christ gospel from those appointed during Christ's reign on the earth and when Christ spoke of him to the Pharisees. So, how is it then, that the Samaritan could do the good that he did? I say, that even though he had not yet been taught formally of Jesus Christ, he still followed the Spirit. In that way, yes, he was a Christian because he followed the teachings of Jesus Christ even though he had yet to have any formal education regarding him.

Now, here is another example:

Act 10:22 And they said, Cornelius the centurion, a just man, and one that feareth God, and of good report among all the nation of the Jews, was warned from God by an holy angel to send for thee into his house, and to hear words of thee. ...
And Cornelius said, Four days ago I was fasting until this hour; and at the ninth hour I prayed in my house, and, behold, a man stood before me in bright clothing, And said, Cornelius, thy prayer is heard, and thine alms are had in remembrance in the sight of God.

These are two men who had not heard the gospel yet, but were following the teachings of Jesus Christ even before they were formally taught. So, yes, Cornelius prior to receiving Peter and hearing the gospel, was a Christian.

As I said, my definition of a "Christian" is someone who follows the Spirit.

Now, the question would be, once Cornelius was taught, would he then be baptized as was taught by those preaching of Christ and receive the Holy Ghost? I say that he would be---but this "following the Spirit" started long before Cornelius was formally taught of Jesus Christ.

This is why in Jude the Jews were taught to bring to "remembrance" what they knew regarding Moses because that would bring them to Jesus Christ as well. Hence, those who follow Christ are those who follow the Spirit regardless of when they were on the earth or where they were on the earth. God loves all of His children and in His own due time all will have a formal education of Jesus Christ, but ALL can and should follow the Spirit as it is given to them AND all who do belong to the church of Christ. All who do not belong to the church of the devil.

Billyray
05-27-2011, 10:44 AM
. . .These are two men who had not heard the gospel yet, but were following the teachings of Jesus Christ even before they were formally taught. So, yes, Cornelius prior to receiving Peter and hearing the gospel, was a Christian.

As I said, my definition of a "Christian" is someone who follows the Spirit. . .



You say that faith in Christ is not a requirement to be a Christian. To this I disagree.

You also gave me a long list of things required for regeneration that also are not required for being a Christian. Your position doesn't seem very clear to me.

BigJulie
05-27-2011, 11:01 AM
You say that faith in Christ is not a requirement to be a Christian. To this I disagree.

You also gave me a long list of things required for regeneration that also are not required for being a Christian. Your position doesn't seem very clear to me.

I say we first have to comprehend what faith in Christ is. From the Bible we learn: Hbr 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

So, to me, any truth that we hope for and live by is faith in Jesus Christ--who is the source of ALL truth. So, the Samaritan who has never heard of Jesus Christ but lives by a truth (via the spirit)--the evidence he has not seen--is living by faith in Jesus Christ. The centerion who feared God and fasted though he had yet to have a formal education of Christ was living by faith.

So, our basic disagreement is what it means to have faith in Jesus Christ. I say that it means following the Spirit. You think that one has to be regenerated or born again which means that they know of Jesus Christ and are "regenerated" by Him. I say that the Samaritan and the Centerion could not do the good they did without influence of the Spirit which could not be if it were not for Jesus Christ.

The list I gave you regarding being born again is only one step in the process of one being taught by and following the Spirit. Keep in mind, that anyone, anywhere along this process can choose to stop following the Spirit. One example would be Judas Iscariot. At one point in the ministry of Christ, I would have thought him a Christian as he was following Christ---but obviously, he let his pride get to him and chose a different path. Likewise, a person who has learned to follow the Spirit can continue down that path or at anytime choose to leave it and turn away. These would be comparable to those who were holding onto the Iron Rod and chose to lose their grip because of the mocking of those in the great and spacious building or for other reasons.

Billyray
05-27-2011, 11:13 AM
So, our basic disagreement is what it means to have faith in Jesus Christ. I say that it means following the Spirit. You think that one has to be regenerated or born again which means that they know of Jesus Christ and are "regenerated" by Him.

Good we are making progress.

I believe that a Christian is someone who

1. Has faith in Christ
2. Born again/regenerated


You believe that a Christian

1. Does not have to have faith in Christ
2. Does not have to be born again


Agree so far?

BigJulie
05-27-2011, 11:22 AM
Good we are making progress.

I believe that a Christian is someone who

1. Has faith in Christ
2. Born again/regenerated


You believe that a Christian

1. Does not have to have faith in Christ
2. Does not have to be born again


Agree so far? You are putting words in my mouth--I said that we disagree with what it means to have faith in Christ. I submit that both the Samaritan and the Centerion had faith in Christ based on their following the Spirit even though they had yet to have a formal education about Christ--just as the Jews of the OT did not yet know of Christ formally, they certainly understood Him by Spirit.

So, no, I do not agree with what you have concluded so far. What I do see is that you want to understand my beliefs from within your own paradigm. I ask you to step out and see if you can understand mine rather than try and force my beliefs into your understanding of Christianity.

Billyray
05-27-2011, 11:26 AM
I submit that both the Samaritan and the Centerion had faith in Christ

So someone who does good works like the Samaritan is a Christian because of his good works even though he does not place his faith in Christ. Agree?

BigJulie
05-27-2011, 11:33 AM
So someone who does good works like the Samaritan is a Christian because of his good works even though he does not place his faith in Christ. Agree?

No, I am saying that the Good Samaritan did the good that he did because he has faith in Christ even though he does not fully understand it. Just as the Centerion feared God and followed the teachings of Christ even though he did not fully understand it.

Let's put it this way. Let's say that I have never heard of Alexander Graham Bell, but every day, I pick up the telephone and use it. I have faith that when I pick up the phone and press some numbers, it is going to work. I talk to my friends, hang up the phone and have faith that the next time I pick it up, it is going to work again. Then one day, I go to school and I learn of Bell and how he invented the telephone and I am explained why and how a phone works. Now, I have a formal education of Bell, but I had faith in his invention long before I knew of him or why a phone worked the way it did.

Likewise, we are all born with this built in telephone or the Spirit. It is because we are the "offspring" of God, discussed in earlier and now deleted threads. Some use this Spirit and learn to have faith in it--others do not. Then one day, someone approaches us and teaches us regarding Christ and why the Spirit works the way it does. In other words, because we are born in the image and lkeness of God and because we are His offspring and because ALL goodness and ALL truth comes from God, we can show faith in Him long before we are taught of Him. In fact, most of us do. :)

Billyray, can I just thank you for these many opportunities you give for me to share the gospel of jesus Christ. :)

Billyray
05-27-2011, 11:38 AM
No, I am saying that the Good Samaritan did the good that he did because he has faith in Christ even though he does not fully understand it.

Do you have any scripture that states that the Good Samaritan had faith in Christ or is this something that you just made up?

Billyray
05-27-2011, 11:40 AM
Billyray, can I just thank you for these many opportunities you give for me to share the gospel of jesus Christ.

BigJ the pleasure is all mine because it shows others that LDS are not true Christians. You have all but admitted that you do not have to be born again or have faith in Christ to be a Christian. This is a false gospel BigJ. Maybe someday you will realize your error.

BigJulie
05-27-2011, 11:42 AM
BigJ the pleasure is all mine because it shows others that LDS are not true Christians. You have all but admitted that you do not have to be born again or have faith in Christ to be a Christian. This is a false gospel BigJ. Maybe someday you will realize your error.

And maybe someday, you will realize that God loves all of His children--that all of humanity was created in the image and likeness of God and that all who follow Him, regardless of their stage or place is part of His fold.

BigJulie
05-27-2011, 11:44 AM
Do you have any scripture that states that the Good Samaritan had faith in Christ or is this something that you just made up?

It is something Christ taught in a parable. One more time:

Matthew 21: 28-31 But what think ye? A [certain] man had two sons; and he came to the first, and said, Son, go work to day in my vineyard. He answered and said, I will not: but afterward he repented, and went. And he came to the second, and said likewise. And he answered and said, I [go], sir: and went not. Whether of them twain did the will of [his] father? They say unto him, The first. Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you.


How about maybe you explain how you understand this parable and we can start from there about our differences in how we understand this.

TheSword99
05-27-2011, 12:36 PM
Sword you have your facts wrong. We both believe that we are justified AFTER conversion which is faith and repentance. However I do agree with you in that regeneration is being spiritually born and conversion is repentance and faith. We just differ on the order that regeneration and conversion take place.

source monergism.com

No Billy You are mistaken. I gave plenty of Scriptures and not a website. Calvinism teaches that regeneration precedes being born again.

Regeneration IS the same as being born again. So its incorrect to say regeneration happens before spiritual rebirth.

TheSword99
05-27-2011, 12:38 PM
Sword you have your facts wrong. We both believe that we are justified AFTER conversion which is faith and repentance. However I do agree with you in that regeneration is being spiritually born and conversion is repentance and faith. We just differ on the order that regeneration and conversion take place.

source monergism.com

Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
Reformed camp, the ordo salutis is
1) election
2) predestination
3) gospel call
4) inward call
5) regeneration
6) conversion (faith & repentance)
7) justification
8) sanctification
9) glorification

Arminian camp, the ordo salutis is
1) outward call
2) faith/election
3) repentance
4) regeneration
5) justification
6) perseverance
7) glorification



This is NOT about Calvinism verses Armiminian. I am talking about what God's word says. You are on here preaching Calvinism and yet the majority of Christians do not adhere to some of his teachings such as this one on regeneration proceeding spiritual rebirth and predestination.

Billyray
05-27-2011, 12:45 PM
This is NOT about Calvinism verses Armiminian. . .


I never brought up the subject of Calvinism. You and your buddy Erik did. And then you two have been trying to tag team me over the last several threads spreading division among the body of Christ. I have been generous with you two and simply said that we have had a difference in opinion. You on the other hand have made this personal.

Billyray
05-27-2011, 12:48 PM
Regeneration means that one has been born again or born from above (John 3:3, 5, 7, 8).

Absolutely agree



Conversion occurs when sinners turn to God in repentance and faith for salvation.

Absolutely agree



Sinners are converted when they repent of their sins and turn to faith in Jesus Christ, trusting in him for the forgiveness of their sins.

Absolutely agree



Calvinists believe that a man is regenerated or has eternal life before he repents or believes. This is not Biblical.

Here is YOUR error. Justification occurs AFTER conversion.

TheSword99
05-27-2011, 12:49 PM
I never brought up the subject of Calvinism. You and your buddy Erik did. And then you two have been trying to tag team me over the last several threads spreading division among the body of Christ. I have been generous with you two and simply said that we have had a difference in opinion. You on the other hand have made this personal.

Billy Your reformed theology is largely the teaching of John Calvin.

TheSword99
05-27-2011, 12:51 PM
Absolutely agree


Absolutely agree


Absolutely agree


Here is YOUR error. Justification occurs AFTER conversion.

No you don't agree. You stated in another post that you were regenerated BEFORE your conversion. That is not scriptural.

Billyray
05-27-2011, 12:51 PM
You are on here preaching Calvinism and yet the majority of Christians do not adhere to some of his teachings. . .

Sword you are now engaging in a logical fallacy called a ad populum.

"logic, an argumentum ad populum (Latin for "appeal to the people") is a fallacious argument that concludes a proposition to be true because many or all people believe it; it alleges: "If many believe so, it is so."
Wikipedia

Billyray
05-27-2011, 12:52 PM
No you don't agree.

Now you have the nerve to tell me what I believe. You are a piece of work.

TheSword99
05-27-2011, 12:54 PM
Absolutely agree


Absolutely agree


Absolutely agree


Here is YOUR error. Justification occurs AFTER conversion.

Reformed theology teaches that regeneration precedes faith. They say that a person must be born again before he believes. That a person must have God’s LIFE before he can believe on Christ.

C. D. Cole states it this way: "The Calvinist says that life must precede faith, and is logically the cause of faith. Faith did not cause the new birth, the new birth caused faith." [From a tract en***led Which Comes First In Conversion--Life or Faith? By C.D.Cole, published by Chapel Library, Venice, Florida].

Calvinists put the new birth before faith, since they believe that spiritually dead humans cannot exercise faith and, therefore, need to be born again before they can believe" [C. Gordon Olson, Beyond Calvinism and Arminianism, p. 39].

The doctrine of man’s total depravity has been carried to the extreme by some Calvinists resulting in a wrong understanding of man’s inability. They believe that the sinner is dead in sin and therefore he is like a corpse, totally unable to do anything. They believe he first must be regenerated and have life and only then will he be able to believe the gospel.

But the Scripture teaches that he must believe in order to have life (John 20:31).

Billyray
05-27-2011, 12:55 PM
Regeneration means that one has been born again or born from above (John 3:3, 5, 7, 8).

I agree with your statement. Why do you say that I don't when I have clearly stated that I do?

Billyray
05-27-2011, 12:56 PM
Reformed theology teaches that regeneration precedes faith.

That is absolutely true. I have already listed this in a prior post.

Reformed camp, the ordo salutis is
1) election
2) predestination
3) gospel call
4) inward call
5) regeneration
6) conversion (faith & repentance)
7) justification
8) sanctification
9) glorification

TheSword99
05-27-2011, 12:57 PM
Sword you are now engaging in a logical fallacy called a ad populum.

"logic, an argumentum ad populum (Latin for "appeal to the people") is a fallacious argument that concludes a proposition to be true because many or all people believe it; it alleges: "If many believe so, it is so."
Wikipedia


Your views are that of the Reformed. You are teaching something that is contrary to what the Scriptures teaches Billy. Please give us the verses to support your view.

TheSword99
05-27-2011, 12:58 PM
That is absolutely true. I have already listed this in a prior post.

Reformed camp, the ordo salutis is
1) election
2) predestination
3) gospel call
4) inward call
5) regeneration
6) conversion (faith & repentance)
7) justification
8) sanctification
9) glorification

Then you believe in Calvinism since the Reformed faith is largely based on this man's teaching.

BigJulie
05-27-2011, 12:58 PM
And another perfectly good thread on its way to deletion. :(:p:rolleyes:

Billyray
05-27-2011, 01:02 PM
Your views are that of the Reformed. You are teaching something that is contrary to what the Scriptures teaches Billy. .

What is contrary?

Billyray
05-27-2011, 01:03 PM
Then you believe in Calvinism since the Reformed faith is largely based on this man's teaching.

What do you take issue with Sword?

Billyray
05-27-2011, 01:06 PM
And another perfectly good thread on its way to deletion.

Unfortunately BigJ I agree with you. I feel that I have been generous with other Christian's point of view and have clearly stated that we differ on certain aspects and that I understand and respect their point of view. Erik and Sword have taken it upon themselves to prove me wrong with a vengeance. They have made it personal and it is quite obvious.

Billyray
05-27-2011, 01:08 PM
You are teaching something that is contrary to what the Scriptures teaches Billy.
Sword are you the one that causes yourself to be born again OR is this a work of God?

Snow Patrol
05-27-2011, 01:25 PM
Ah, great. I'm a Christian.

Billyray
05-27-2011, 01:34 PM
Ah, great. I'm a Christian.

My post above I was specifically referring to fellow Christians not LDS. I guess my post was unclear in that respect.

TheSword99
05-27-2011, 01:39 PM
Unfortunately BigJ I agree with you. I feel that I have been generous with other Christian's point of view and have clearly stated that we differ on certain aspects and that I understand and respect their point of view. Erik and Sword have taken it upon themselves to prove me wrong with a vengeance. They have made it personal and it is quite obvious.

Billy, cool down. It is not vengeance nor personal. Sometimes we Christians can be mistaken and in our pride we close our minds. You had posted (unfortunately I could not find this post. perhaps it was in a thread that has been deleted) but you wrote that YOU were regenerated BEFORE you got saved. You also posted a list of requirements where it showed that one must be regenerated before one can proceed on to the next step which is conversion (faith and repentance). Therefore, you believe conversion and regeneration are two separate things. They are not.

I asked you for the scripture verses where you believe it teaches regeneration precedes faith. You didn't give any. I believe you are a Christian Billy, but you have some beliefs that conflict with the Scriptures.

The Philippian jailer asked, "What must I do to be saved?" (Acts 16:30). If Paul had been a Calvinist he might have said, "You can do nothing to be saved, absolutely nothing. You are dead in sin and a dead man can do nothing. If God doesn't regenerate you, then you are doomed." But Paul said nothing at all like this. His answer was very different: He said: "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved" (Acts 16:31).

Billyray
05-27-2011, 01:44 PM
You had posted (unfortunately I could not find this post. perhaps it was in a thread that has been deleted) but you wrote that YOU were regenerated BEFORE you got saved.


I have always maintained that my regeneration (spiritual birth) preceded my conversion (faith and repentance). If this were not the case I would still be Mormon. I never would of changed my mind and come to the real Jesus because I felt that I already had the real Jesus even though I was inactive at the time. The only reason that I left is because God changed me which then lead me to conversion (faith and repentance) in the true God. I never once sought out the true God UNTIL I was changed first.

Snow Patrol
05-27-2011, 01:48 PM
Oh, so you are adding additional requirements then?

Billyray
05-27-2011, 01:49 PM
I asked you for the scripture verses where you believe it teaches regeneration precedes faith.

You brought up John 3 so lets look at what it actually states.

John 3 NIV
3 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.”
4 “How can someone be born when they are old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb to be born!”
5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit.
6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.
7 You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again.’
8 The wind ****s wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”

Notice Jesus states that in order to even see the kingdom of God--let alone enter it-- you must be born again or spiritually regenerated. Looking at verse 8 it does not say being born again is a result of faith and repentance which then leads to being born again but rather it is like the wind and you can't tell where it comes from or where it is going. If it was specifically after faith and repentance then you could know exactly where it was going.

Billyray
05-27-2011, 01:56 PM
I asked you for the scripture verses where you believe it teaches regeneration precedes faith.

Lets look at another one.

John 1

12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

It specifically states that we are born "nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man".

Billyray
05-27-2011, 02:05 PM
Reformed camp, the ordo salutis is
1) election
2) predestination
3) gospel call
4) inward call
5) regeneration
6) conversion (faith & repentance)
7) justification
8) sanctification
9) glorification

The time between regeneration and conversion may be milliseconds such that a person may not distinguish between the two.

TheSword99
05-27-2011, 02:13 PM
I have always maintained that my regeneration (spiritual birth) preceded my conversion (faith and repentance). If this were not the case I would still be Mormon. I never would of changed my mind and come to the real Jesus because I felt that I already had the real Jesus even though I was inactive at the time. The only reason that I left is because God changed me which then lead me to conversion (faith and repentance) in the true God. I never once sought out the true God UNTIL I was changed first.

Then how can you say regeneration and spiritual rebirth (conversion) are 2 different things?

Can you give us the scriptures that says regeneration comes before faith?

Billyray
05-27-2011, 02:15 PM
Then how can you say regeneration and spiritual rebirth (conversion) are 2 different things?


Reformed camp, the ordo salutis is
1) election
2) predestination
3) gospel call
4) inward call
5) regeneration
6) conversion (faith & repentance)
7) justification
8) sanctification
9) glorification


Regeneration is spiritual birth/born again

Conversion is faith and repentance.

Billyray
05-27-2011, 02:16 PM
Can you give us the scriptures that says regeneration comes before faith?
I gave you two how about addressing them?

Billyray
05-27-2011, 02:17 PM
Then you believe in Calvinism since the Reformed faith is largely based on this man's teaching.

I believe that God regenerated me (born again) which led to my conversion (faith and repentance).

BTW Sword do you realize that Calvinism verses Arminianism was never formally brought up once until you brought it up?

TheSword99
05-27-2011, 02:20 PM
The time between regeneration and conversion may be milliseconds such that a person may not distinguish between the two.

Where does the Bible teach that?

You know, Billy, Reformed theology does not comprise all of Christianity.Therefore, one cannot say this is what Christians believe. The Reformed faith is only one branch or belief system. There are millions of born again Christians who do not subscribe to it.. Calvin's teachings were extreme and much of what he believed he got from Augustine the catholic monk. Some of the reformers never wanted to leave the Roman church and thus they did keep some of their beliefs from this false religion.

Billyray
05-27-2011, 02:21 PM
Then you believe in Calvinism since the Reformed faith is largely based on this man's teaching.

Do you believe in Arminius whose teachings were condemned at the Synod of Dort?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synod_of_Dort

Billyray
05-27-2011, 02:22 PM
Where does the Bible teach that?


Are you actually going to address the verses or are you into mud slinging?

Billyray
05-27-2011, 02:27 PM
You know, Billy, Reformed theology does not comprise all of Christianity.

You know Sword I never once said that it did. I took the gentler approach and clearly stated that there are differences of opinion in a few areas of among Christians, and that I respect their beliefs. But you and your buddy Erik have came out swinging and I am not sure why. You have made this an issue IMO not me. And you continue to make this an issue. Other than a brief reply to a question by BigJ this subject never once came up on this thread, until of course you brought it up.

TheSword99
05-27-2011, 02:28 PM
I gave you two how about addressing them?

Billy, I don't have time for games. I gave you several verses and you never addressed a single one of them. Now you want me to address you instead. You ask the same things over and over because you do not like the answers we give you. If you wish to remain a lone wolf christian, that's up to you.

What did I post about the story of the Philippian Jailer? Did you read it or just skim through? What was it Paul said he needed to do in order to be saved? BELIEVE! He wasn't yet regenerated and he wanted to know what to do. Belief therefore, precedes regeneration (conversion) He asked "What must I DO? Paul did not say. You can't do anything. You're too depraved! Paul said this is what you must do. Believe on the Lord Jesus.

Billyray
05-27-2011, 02:28 PM
Billy, I don't have time for games. I gave you several verses and you never addressed a single one of them.

Who is playing games now? You of course. I gave you verses from John 3 and John 1. Ignore them if you want. I understand.

Billyray
05-27-2011, 02:33 PM
If you wish to remain a lone wolf christian, that's up to you.


I have never ever in my years of being a Christian had such aggressive opposition to differences in opinion than I have had with both you and Erik. I have many friends who are Arminian. In fact the couple that gave my wife the anti-Mormon book are Arminian and we enjoy talking about our differences, see each other's point of view, and in the end respect each other's differences.

Billyray
05-27-2011, 02:35 PM
What was it Paul said he needed to do in order to be saved?

You bring up Paul. Did Paul on his own decide to one day put faith in Christ and repent?

Billyray
05-27-2011, 02:40 PM
Acts 9 NIV
1 Meanwhile, Saul was still breathing out murderous threats against the Lord’s disciples. He went to the high priest 2 and asked him for letters to the synagogues in Damascus, so that if he found any there who belonged to the Way, whether men or women, he might take them as prisoners to Jerusalem. 3 As he neared Damascus on his journey, suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him. 4 He fell to the ground and heard a voice say to him, “Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?” 5 “Who are you, Lord?” Saul asked.“I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting,” he replied. 6 “Now get up and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do.”


Was Paul actively seeking Jesus and decided to one day place his faith in Christ on his own?

TheSword99
05-27-2011, 02:50 PM
You know Sword I never once said that it did. I took the gentler approach and clearly stated that there are differences of opinion in a few areas of among Christians, and that I respect their beliefs. But you and your buddy Erik have came out swinging and I am not sure why. .

It is because you are mistaken in some of what you believe the bible teaches. You quote James White and other men. Not interested in that Billy. I want to know what GOD said. You are on here all day telling us that we are wrong. If you are a christian, and I believe you are, you would be willing to listen.


You know exactly what I believe. A person is regenerated first which then leads to faith in Christ. Erik etc. believe faith precedes regeneration.

By your statement above you just said that regeneration comes BEFORE faith. Regeneration first, then faith. I had posted that Regeneration means that one is born again or born from above. You said you agree. If you did agree then you would believe that regeneration and conversion which includes faith are the same EXACT thing!

Where does John 1:12,13 teach that regeneration precedes faith? I'm sorry buddy but you are confused.

Billyray
05-27-2011, 02:55 PM
If you did agree then you would believe that regeneration and conversion which includes faith are the same EXACT thing!

Regeneration is not the same thing as conversion (faith and repentance). If it were then you cause yourself to be born again.

Billyray
05-27-2011, 02:59 PM
Where does John 1:12,13 teach that regeneration precedes faith? I'm sorry buddy but you are confused.

I am confused. Now you are starting to use inflammatory language. How Christian of you. Lets look at the verses

John 1 NIV

12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Can you be born by the will of the flesh or your own will according to these verses?

TheSword99
05-27-2011, 03:01 PM
Sword are you the one that causes yourself to be born again OR is this a work of God?

You said you were regenerated first before conversion which includes faith. If regeneration precedes faith, then this would make faith unnecessary since the person would already be saved. If a person is regenerated, then he is born of God, a member of God’s family and a possessor of eternal life. If you are a member of God’s family and a possessor of eternal life, then you are already saved. So what need is there for faith?

This is what the bible teaches Billy:

Believe and thou shalt live! "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on Me hath everlasting life" (John 6:47). "That whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have eternal life" (John 3:15). Reformed theology says, "live and thou shalt believe!" John 1:12 does not say this: "But as many as have been regenerated, to them gave He the power to believe on His Name, even to those who have become the children of God." Notice also that John 20:31 says, "believing ye might have life." It does not say, "having life ye might believe." In his helpless and hopeless condition the sinner is told to LOOK to the Lord Jesus Christ AND LIVE (John 3:14-16; Numbers 21)

Reformed theology teaches that a person must have life in order to believe. Jesus taught that a person must believe (come to Christ) in order to have life (John 5:40). To "come to Christ" is synonymous with "believing on Him" (John 6:35,37,40). Why do people not believe on Christ? Is it because they have not been regenerated or because they refuse to come to Christ by faith (John 5:40; 2 Thess. 2:10,12)

This is what God's word says Billy. You cannot change the Truth

Billyray
05-27-2011, 03:05 PM
If you did agree then you would believe that regeneration and conversion which includes faith are the same EXACT thing!

Really? Lets look at what you said in a prior post

Regeneration means that one has been born again or born from above (John 3:3, 5, 7, 8). Conversion occurs when sinners turn to God in repentance and faith for salvation.

Billyray
05-27-2011, 03:07 PM
You said you were regenerated first before conversion which includes faith. If regeneration precedes faith, then this would make faith unnecessary since the person would already be saved.
Reformed camp, the ordo salutis is
1) election
2) predestination
3) gospel call
4) inward call
5) regeneration
6) conversion (faith & repentance)
7) justification
8) sanctification
9) glorification

A person is NOT justified until he is converted. Haven't we went over this before?

Billyray
05-27-2011, 03:11 PM
Reformed theology teaches that a person must have life in order to believe.

They teach that people are spiritually DEAD not wounded and because we are spiritually dead we will never seek out God on our own. Arminians teach that you are spiritually wounded not spiritually dead and thus are able to seek out God on your own.

Billyray
05-27-2011, 03:14 PM
You know Sword this was a good thread until you ****ed in. I hope that this thread does not get deleted because of your derail.

TheSword99
05-27-2011, 03:27 PM
You know Sword this was a good thread until you ****ed in. I hope that this thread does not get deleted because of your derail.

I didn't derail anything. I merely called you out on your erroneous belief that regeneration comes before faith. This thread is about what are the requirements for being a Christian and I gave the truth from God's word.. The LDS need to know what God said.

It was a nice thread to you Billy, because no one challenged you with the Scriptures. No one wants to. Others have tried to talk to you, but you have dismissed all of us. You prefer to be the lone wolf christian and when someone tries to show you your error, you close your ears..

Anyway, I'm done. I wish you had a teachable heart, Billy

alanmolstad
05-27-2011, 03:33 PM
To be a christian you must believe in the resurrection of Christ..

There is no other requirement.

Billyray
05-27-2011, 03:42 PM
Anyway, I'm done. I wish you had a teachable heart, Billy

Sword you ***ume that you are right and I am wrong. That is your is your problem now and that has been your problem in the past in our discussions.

I understand that we have differences of opinion. You have scriptures that back your point of view. I have scriptures that back my point of view. If it was a clear cut issue then there would not be any debate. I think I have a fair understanding of your position and I respect it. I have a different position yet you don't respect mine. You and Erik have had this personal mission to prove me wrong at any cost and I am not sure why but one thing I am sure about is that this is evident to anyone reading this thread.

BTW you asked me to give you a couple of verses as to why I believe the way I do. I gave them to you and instead of at least addressing them and trying to see my point of view you called me confused.

Billyray
05-27-2011, 03:42 PM
To be a christian you must believe in the resurrection of Christ..

There is no other requirement.
Thanks Alan for trying to get us back on track.

ErikErik
05-27-2011, 04:09 PM
Thanks Alan for trying to get us back on track.

So you agree with Alan that the only requirement for being a true christian is belief in the resurrection?

alanmolstad
05-27-2011, 04:09 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AdmIQkX7_no


Only faith in the Resurrection makes a person a Christian...

Billyray
05-27-2011, 04:24 PM
So you agree with Alan that the only requirement for being a true christian is belief in the resurrection?
I believe that a Christian is defined by faith in Christ and regeneration.


And Erik what are the requirements to be a Christian?

Billyray
05-27-2011, 04:35 PM
So you agree with Alan that the only requirement for being a true christian is belief in the resurrection?

Erik will you give me an honest answer?

You don't think Alan is a Christian do you?

glm1978
05-27-2011, 04:44 PM
Billy,

John 1:12-13 teaches that one must be spiritually and supernaturally reborn to become regenerated. First one must receive Christ as Savior before this can happen. It is like light and dark. The light of God cannot dwell within a dark heart, so conversion first and regeneration second.

BigJulie
05-27-2011, 04:47 PM
Jill, isn't it time to delete another thread and ban a few more Mormons as per your standard MO (mode of operation)? :)

For the readers, this disagreement that has been going from thread to thread does not involve Mormons but for whatever reason, the Mormons keep getting banned.

alanmolstad
05-27-2011, 04:48 PM
so conversion first and regeneration second.

So who came in 3rd?