The Calvinist-Arminian debate

[alanmolstad]

The The Calvinist-Arminian debate is academic.

it is a debate between two views that both have a lot of bible support.

it is a debate that takes up a lot of time within the christian church.

its also a pointless debate, that is endless, and most importantly....it gives no one comfort.

Even the person who believes they have won the debate has no comfort for his effort.

The life of the believer is not made more easy by the victory, nor has the life of the loser of this debate had their life made different in even the slightest ways...

that makes this a purely academic effort.

[alanmolstad]

Back 25 years ago I had to study this academic debate in my Bible School cl***.
I even had to stand before my teacher and give my report of the debate and offer my views on it.

The results of my looking into this debate left me with 2 very interesting opinions.

#1 - Both sides have strong support within the text of the Bible, as well as having a lot of good reasoning behind their argument.

#2 - its moot....a pointless matter as even if one side is correct and the other in error, Nothing Changes!

There is not one slightest thing about my life that will ever be effected by my learning that one side of this debate was correct.
I dont have to do anything, change anything, fix anything...
This means that this question has so little impact on the average life of a Christian that it can only be said to me "moot" compared to other things that if they changed I would have to alter a monster amount of things in my life....

[alanmolstad]

Both the Calvinist side of this debate as well as the Arminian side sit at the far ends of the fringe.

They both have views that have many good points.

I find myself supporting many things each side brings up.

and yet, both sides take the issue too far.
Both sides go over the edge and have some ideas that are in error.

[alanmolstad]

while some part of Calvinism are nice , and I believe they are true,,,other parts are insane......

[alanmolstad]

in the end.....

In the end I don't find anything wrong at all with taking a few things from one side, along with one or two from the other side, and holding them up as the better way to look at some issues...

[alanmolstad]

I think that basic problem is that we have to have two different points of view in our minds to see each side of this issue....

we have to look at the question of how we are saved from both our limited point of view.....

and then at the same time...

Look at the same things with a point of view of the eternal all-knowing, god....

[alanmolstad]

from our human and limited point of view, we dont know who is saved or not?

We have to go out into the world and spread the WORD to all people.
We have to offer to all the message that is give us to spread.

We have to have the mind-set that all men can be saved.
that there is no list of people that will be saved and no final list of who will be lost.

We have to preach our message well, and help people decide for themselves to believe.

We have to hold that each person all on their own, can find God....that they can do this...that it's not hard...that they can do this and have as much opportunity to be saved as any other person on earth....


We have to take the position that the future is not set...that none of us knows who will be saved., and that we have to stay busy all the time to spread the Word....

[dfoJC]

You seem mighty lonely over here Alan! Thought I would join in.

You know, I have heard of Calvinism and Armenianism, but I never really studied either of them, no Bible School here, just me, the Spirit and the bible.

I always thought it funny that the Mormons spout Calvinism more than the Christians! The once saved always saved, election and all of that.

I suppose if I took the time to study all of this I would be a lot like you, accepting some, rejecting others, hopefully basing my decisions on what the Word says.

Your last post though is exactly how I think. We have a *** to do, that is to love others and present the Gospel. Leave the results up to God. It is not complicated, it is simple, but alas, it is not always easy.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts here. I find encouragement in what you say, and I thank you for that.

dfoJC

[alanmolstad]

You seem mighty lonely over here Alan! Thought I would join in.



you know...I should just post a bunch of topics and see if along the line I find one that even a few Mormons think is worth posting on even if it has ZERO to do with attacking/defending Mormonism....

[alanmolstad]

Can Man repent?


yes...

if man could not repent, if we were not able to repent on our own, then we would not be asked to repent!

and we are asked to repent,

so this means we can repent....

[alanmolstad]

We are instructed to "Come" to the Lord that we might be saved.
In the act of calling us to "come" to himself God is showing us that we have the ability to do this.

the word "Come" means we to get up and go someplace.
You therefore have the ability to take the initiative and move to God.

Christ stands at the door of the heart and knocks.

If we are unable to open the door on our own?...there would be no point in His knocking....

We and we alone are the ones who are called to open the door and let god into our hearts.

If we were unable to do this, we would not hear that knock...

[Billyray]

We are instructed to "Come" to the Lord that we might be saved.
In the act of calling us to "come" to himself God is showing us that we have the ability to do this.
.

Can someone who is spiritually dead come to Christ?

[alanmolstad]

Can someone who is spiritually dead come to Christ?
Yes.....if the person was unable to come to Christ, they would not be asked to...

We read that men are called to come to Christ, therefore they can come to Him.

There would be no point in calling men to do something they were unable to do so.

[alanmolstad]

Its like....
Its like I said before when i talked about the human point of view when dealing with this Calvinist-Arminian debate.
Unless you keep in mind whatever point of view you have at the time,you will get mixed up.

The moment you try to ask questions from God's point of view, and try to answer them from man's point of view your answers will always appear wrong.

The same is true for the reverse.

Now, from "our" human, (And therefore limited) point of view there is no set list of people to be saved or lost.
All have the very same opportunity to repent and be saved.
All have the same danger of hell's flame if they turn away.

There is no list of names of the saved before hand.

No one knows who will be saved or lost, its all left up to the actions of the Word though the Body of Christ to save they whomever will hear and respond.


So the Christian Church is sent out in the Great Commission to reach the whole world with the message of Christ.
The church reaches out with the Word to the lost world.

The church must "teach" the lost world about Christ.
If the lost had no ability to learn, there would be no point in sending us out to teach anyone.


Its sorta like being asked to "repent and believe"

We all are clearly asked to repent and believe.
What would be the point in asking people to do something they were physicaly unable to do?......there would be none.

The Lord never asks man to do things that man is unable to do.
If the Lord were to ever ask us to do something we could not do it would make the Lord look crazy.

It would be silly for God to demand that men grow wings on their heels and fly up to the sky as the only means to be saved.
It would be silly to ask man to do that because we are physically unable to do that.

So God does not ask us to grow wings like that.

[alanmolstad]

Man has free will.
Our free will give us the ability to love.
The down side is that free will means we can be held responsible for our actions.....getting the credit or the blame is the result of being a creature with free will.

We could not love without free will.
But we also could not do evil without free will.



As long as a person has free will they can answer the calling that goes out to all men to repent and believe.
Free will is the key thing in this.

Unless a person has free will they cant be expected to listen to the call to come to Christ.
An example would be my cat.

My cat does not really have free will, or if it does it is of such a limited range that it has no ability to sin or do what is right.
No free will, means my cat mostly acts on the natural instinct.

This means in a very real way i cant really blame the cat for doing things that cats do.
I may not like the fact that my cats hunts all day in the tall gr*** in the backyard, but that's what cats do.
Talking to my cat will not make any difference....a cats going to do what a cats going to do.

Limited free will means limited ability to be held responsible for one's actions.

On the other hand, man is held to a huge Mother of an accounting of our actions, to the point if we are found guilty we spend "forever" in a burning hell of fire.

Now you don't send people to a forever of a burning hell of fire unless they had it coming.
You don't send them there forever unless they were 100% to blame for their own actions.

If there was even the slightest hint that the person was not fully responsible for their own actions, then sending them to hell would be out of the question.

If there was even the slightest hint that the person was some how predestined to be unable to respond, then God would be a moron to be sending people to hell that never had a chance to believe in the first place.

This is why we know we have free will, and that we are responsible to answer the calling that we hear, and that every man that has ever been born is asked to turn to the 'light" they receive and if they do so they will find God.

[Billyray]

There would be no point in calling men to do something they were unable to do so.

Can men obey the commandments?

[alanmolstad]

Can men obey the commandments?


There would be ZERO point in asking my cat to obey the Commandments...

But we are asked to obey...

You only ask people to do things you know they can do.
God NEVER asks me to do something I am unable to do....(God is not a moron)


If I were ever asked to do something I was physically or mentally unable to do, and I failed at it, I could never be found at fault for my failure.
If I were asked to grow wings out of my heals and fly into the sky I would fail.
Im unable to do what was asked of me.
But I would not be responsible for my failing to do that because there was never any chance i could do that....I am physically unable to grow wings out of my heels.

The same is true if you ask me to do something Im mentally unable to do.

I could never be asked to remember every word I have ever spoken because my brain simply cant do that.
Im mentally unable to do what is requested.

Being unable to do something means I will always fail at it if asked.

But it also means I cant be held responsible for my failing.
In fact, there would be a stronger case that the person who asked me to do something I did not have the capacity to do would be really at fault for my failing.

Thus the wisdom in only asking me to do things I have the capacity to do.
and the wisdom in only holding me responsible for failing to do things I could be expected to do.

If God asks me do do something, He better make sure I can do it first, or else he is going to come off looking like a weirdo.

[Billyray]

You only ask people to do things you know they can do.
God NEVER asks me to do something I am unable to do....(God is not a moron)

So you could lead a perfect life like Jesus and obey all of the commandants since you have free will. Correct?

[alanmolstad]

So you could lead a perfect life like Jesus and obey all of the commandants since you have free will. Correct?There is NO point in asking people to do things ("be perfect as your father in heaven is perfect") if the person you request this of is totally unable to do what you are asking.

You could NEVER ask humans to fly with wings because ...well...God didnt give us wings.

Now if God had designed humans with wings "THEN" we could be asked, AND EXPECTED to fly when asked to fly...

[Billyray]

There is NO point in asking people to do things ("be perfect as your father in heaven is perfect") if the person you request this of is totally unable to do what you are asking.


So then you would agree that a person is capable of keeping all of the commandments and living a perfect life like Jesus?

[alanmolstad]

So then you would agree that a person is capable of keeping all of the commandments and living a perfect life like Jesus?
Didnt you just ask this question?.....I guess I could copy/paste my answer again too.....?

[alanmolstad]

one more time...








There is NO point in asking people to do things ("be perfect as your father in heaven is perfect") if the person you request this of is totally unable to do what you are asking.

You could NEVER ask humans to fly with wings because ...well...God didnt give us wings.

Now if God had designed humans with wings "THEN" we could be asked, AND EXPECTED to fly when asked to fly...

[Billyray]

Didnt you just ask this question?


So then you would agree that a person is capable of keeping all of the commandments and living a perfect life like Jesus?

Is that a yes or no?

[alanmolstad]

So then you would agree that a person is capable of keeping all of the commandments and living a perfect life like Jesus?

You love to ask the same question over and over it seems...:D

Well, Sword might play that game ,,,I dont.....

[Billyray]

Since you admit that it is possible to live a perfect life exactly like Jesus, how many have lived a perfect life thus not requiring the atonement for their salvation?

[alanmolstad]

Remember we are looking at such issues from the human/limited point of view.

if we want later we can look at the same issues from God's point of view and then we will see different answers.

We will come to different answers, but still true answers.

This is the way to look at the whole Calvinist-Arminian debate, in that both sides have "some" good points as well as a bit of the Lunatic Fringe.

[alanmolstad]

Since you admit that it is possible to live a perfect life exactly like Jesus, how many have lived a perfect life thus not requiring the atonement for their salvation?

haven't the slightest idea....
(well there is my mom of course...and my aunt, etc)

[Billyray]

haven't the slightest idea....
(well there is my mom of course...and my aunt, etc)


But you would agree that a person could save himself without the need for Jesus by living a perfect life?

[alanmolstad]

Remember, we are never asked by God to do things we cant do.

Although we tend to want to point the finger of blame at other people and other things as to the reason we fail, the correct answer is that the failure is our own.

Being a creature with free will means we have the ability to Love God.
Rocks can love....dust cant love...

Im sure the dust was seen by God as "good".....
Im sure the dust was loved by God as being "good" in his eyes.
But I also sure that the dust did not Love God back.

We can love ,
We can do this because we have free will .

the down side is that the freedom to love also brings with it the freedom to hate.

The freedom to do what is right and please God, also brings with it the freedom to value things incorrectly, and place other items on the list of things to do that take the place of other correct things ...

hate and Sin are the result of being a creature with free will.
hate and sin are a lot like rocks going down a hill....once they get going in a person's life they tend to really get going.

But we are commanded to Love.

We would not be asked to do that if we had no ability to Love..

Dust cant love, Dust is never asked to love.

Being asked to do something carries with it the connotation that you can do this...(or why ask?)

[Billyray]

Remember, we are never asked by God to do things we cant do.

Then my question should be an easy one for you.


. .You would agree that a person could save himself without the need for Jesus by living a perfect life?

[alanmolstad]

But you would agree that a person could save himself without the need for Jesus by living a perfect life?

I would not use the term "Save himself", because the word "save' means that the person was at one time 'lost".

the Bible is clear that once you sin,,,even a small sin, you are "lost",,,the bible is also clear that once you are lost there is no other path to salvation except via the Son.


So in a very real way we cant say a person can "save themselves" because that would mean they were lost and once you are lost it dont matter how many things you do right, you are lost.

The christian faith is not a works-based salvation.
Once you become lost you can not save yourself by actions or works to earn some type of 'merit'.

But what of they who dont sin?
they who have no ability to sin, or they who simply dont?
(children, people with mental issues etc)

They are like what Paul was saying that before the Law he was alive.
Then the law came, and sin took the opportunity it saw when the law came and sprang to life in his heart and Paul was then dead in his sins.

But before sin sprang to life in his heart, he was alive, and not covered under the blood of the cross....and quite frankly, really no need to be covered under the blood of Christ.

But sin springs to life easy in us, and as we cant work our way off the list of the ****ed, we have but the cross of Christ as our only means of salvation at that point.

[Billyray]

I would not use the term "Save himself", because the word "save' means that the person was at one time 'lost".


Can a person live a perfect life thus not needing the sacrifice of Jesus for salvation?

[alanmolstad]

Can a person live a perfect life thus not needing the sacrifice of Jesus for salvation?

I believe I have answer that question above....

[Billyray]

I believe I have answer that question above....

Can a person live a perfect life thus not needing the sacrifice of Jesus for salvation?

Alan's answer to this question is YES.

[alanmolstad]

Alan's answer to this question is... (see below).

The Bible is clear that once you sin,,,even a small sin, you are "lost".
The Bible is also clear that once you are lost there is no other path to salvation except via the Son.


So in a very real way we cant say a person can "save themselves" because that would mean they were lost and once you are lost it don't matter how many things you do right, you are lost.

The christian faith is not a works-based salvation.
Once you become lost you can not save yourself by actions or works to earn some type of 'merit'.

But what of they who don't sin?
They who have no ability to sin, or they who simply dont?
(children, people with mental issues etc)

They are like what Paul was saying that before the Law he was alive.
Then the law came, and sin took the opportunity it saw when the law came and sprang to life in his heart and Paul was then dead in his sins.

But before sin sprang to life in his heart, he was alive, and not covered under the blood of the cross....and quite frankly, really no need to be covered under the blood of Christ.

But sin springs to life easy in us, and as we cant work our way off the list of the ****ed, we have but the cross of Christ as our only means of salvation at that point.

(By the way, Alan writes his own answers to questions, thank you very much)

[Billyray]

The Bible is clear that once you sin,,,even a small sin, you are "lost".

So now you are saying that it is impossible to keep the commandments?

[alanmolstad]

So now you are saying that it is impossible to keep the commandments?
if it were impossible, then why ask us to keep them?

It would be like asking us to fly,,,,

But dont kid yourself... while the spirit is very willing to do what is right every time, the flesh is also just as ready to do what is wrong every time.

Do I do what is wrong every time?
No I do not.

Thats why Im asked to do what is right, even knowing the personal struggle it can be with the flesh God still asks us to do what is right, BECAUSE WE CAN!....

We are NEVER asked to do something we cant do.
The moment you have a God that asks you to do something you cant do, you are in a CULT.

CULTS have all kinds of gods that ask the impossible,,,,

But the Christian God is not like that.
Even when we do sin, God still asks us to do things he knows we can do.

He asks us to repent and come to His son...

He asks this because WE CAN!

Christ stands at the door to our hearts and knocks.
he knocks because He knows we can hear him, and he also knows we can open the door to him.

If we could not hear him, he would not bother to knock.

If we could not open that door to our hearts, there would be no need to knock.

[Billyray]

We are NEVER asked to do something we cant do.



Can a person live a perfect life thus not needing the sacrifice of Jesus for salvation?

[alanmolstad]

Can a person live a perfect life thus not needing the sacrifice of Jesus for salvation?

ask me that one more time...I dare you.....

[Billyray]

ask me that one more time...I dare you.....

I dare you to answer the question Alan. It is not a difficult question. You are acting like BigJ now by not addressing my question.

Can a person live a perfect life thus not needing the sacrifice of Jesus for salvation?

[alanmolstad]

They who babble on an internet message forum....
I have ZERO patience for them.

Mostly they are people who have a hard time engaging in real conversations.
They can only follow a mental script that they have for how they wish a conversation to go.

The problem is that their mental image is flawed.
Its flawed for while they are prepared to follow it the script, the other doesn't even know there is a script.
Let alone have even the slightest interest in keeping true to it.

The result?

The result sometimes, (many times) is that a frustration builds up with the other person who simply will not follow the script.

So when someone is asked a question and the "wrong" answer is given, the only way some people know how to handle that is to ask the same question again and again......in the hope that somehow the other person will give the only answer allowed by the script.


over and over they ask....

It does not matter a hoot that the answer to the question is given, they ask it again looking for the hope-for scripted answer because then they will know what to ask next.

The ending of this?
The only way to end this is by BANNING.....

Its the only thing that some people can understand.
You have to see things from their point of view...

Getting their **** banned, or BLOCKED is not in their script at all....far from it.

Its the last thing they expect, and so thats why they acted with such poor manners in the first place...
They never expected to be put on Alan's "IGNORE LIST"

That is why when warned that pay no attention to the warning...

But next time?
Oh heck yes!
Next time they will see it coming a mile away, and act accordingly in a manner that diverts away from that possibility.


Billy , you babble.
I have not got the time for it, and you have made it clear you want me to add your name to my IGNORE list....
so be it.
I will do so....

Take care.

[alanmolstad]

building on what I was talking about on my thread....

We have to keep in mind our human and thereby limited point of view when we look at the salvation question.

from our point of view, there is no list of names of the lost and the saved written yet.
its all completely unknown.

No one knows the result of speaking a word to someone here, a message left there...

This means that when we go out into the world to follow the command of the "Great Commission" we do so thinking that the Whole World can be saved!

we do so thinking that that every person can be saved, that none will be lost.

Thats the point in sending us out to the lost world...we are to bring the message that will save it.

But with this Great Commission to save the world, there carries with it the understanding that man can listen, or man can turn away.

thats the problem with human free will....it means that the church can bring the Good news to people and they can just turn away and remain lost....

its up to them.

this human free will gives us the ability to love God, but it also brings with it the idea that we can and will be held to give account for our actions.

Human free will means we are responsible.

[alanmolstad]

Now there are some teachers who believe that man does not have free will.

They hold to the idea that we are powerless to do anything, and are, well, basically soulless robots with the wrong programing in control of our actions.

This is a silly idea.

If we were robots we would not be in need of salvation,..(robots do not sin)

if we did not have free will we could not be held responsible for our actions.
The wind and the rain does not have free will, and so we cant actually blame it's lack of morals for messing up our hair.

You can gauge how much free will humans have by the amount of responsibility we are called to account for.
We look at the bible and find that the result of being found guilty in the Final judgement is eternal hell.

You look at what forever in Hell will be like, and you come away understanding the tremendous amount of free will needed to justify that amount of punishment.

[Billyray]

We are NEVER asked to do something we cant do.


Can a person live a perfect life thus not needing the sacrifice of Jesus for salvation?

You see Alan backed himself into a corner. If he answered my question that is consistent with his position then he would have to answer that yes a person can live a perfect life and not need the sacrifice of Jesus for salvation. He has no choice but to change his position OR put me on ignore. He chose the dishonorable thing and put me on ignore.

[alanmolstad]

When I was back in Bible school, I had a cl*** that did a study of the Calvinist-Arminian debate.
We looked at the different teachers , the times they wront within, and the different ways each looked at the question of man's responsibility in salvation.

later each of the student in my cl*** had to stand before the cl*** and teacher and give a report on what we had learned, and the conclusions we had come to after our study.

Most of the students took one side of the issue or the other.

I did not.

I found both sides to have much truth to their views, lots of support in the Bible, and yet they both were also lacking what the other side had.

They both seemed to 'missed something" that the other side had picked up.

They both also had positions that if you took them to the natural extreme would be insane.

The one thing I noticed was that both side tend to view the issues from a point of view, eithor God's (all knowing) or man's (very limited), and thus made some rather drastic errors based only on a failure to see things from a different point of view.

Both POV are true and correct, but both POV are also very different too.

[alanmolstad]

The conclusions I came to in my final report to my teacher was that:
#1 - Man has free will
#2 - God is sovereign.


Both ideas are in play at the same time, without contradiction of confrontation.

[alanmolstad]

Now lets next look at the question of "Can a person do what is right?"

I think the answer is found in the very act of asking others to do what is right.

lets make this easy to see what im talking about:
Im on a message forum right now.
Other people are posting things to me to answer.
But lets also say there is a poster that has bad manners and the owner of the forum tells the person with bad manners that they better straighten up and fly right or will get kicked off the forum.

Now the moment the owner of the forum sends this type of message/warning it carries with it the idea that the person in question CAN obey.

There is no point in the owner of a forum demanding people follow some rules if no one has the ability to know what the rules are, let alone follow them.

Thus we can know the person must be able to change and follow the rules because we see them asked to do so.

The asking proves the other person can.

But lets say that later you learn that the other person has been banned?
If that happens, then the banned person only has himself to blame for being punished.
They know they had the free will sufficient to have changed their behavior and thereby not been banned.

So to return to the opening question , the person could have done what was right, but because of free will and a personal view of what was more important at the time, made a poor choice and had to pay for it.

The fact that a person is asked to do something carries with it the understanding that the person can do it.

or else there was no point in asking them in the first place.

[alanmolstad]

The next question deals with the question of if man has free will or not?

My answer is that "Hell proves we have free will"

Its that simple.

The very fact that hell is real means that we are held responsible for our actions.
And, only free will makes this all possible.

Take away free will and there is no responsibility for our actions.
Take away our free will and there is no hell.
But take away our free will and there is no way to return our love to God....we are back to being dust.

God may have loved the dust, but the dust didnt love Him back.

[Billyray]

And, only free will makes this all possible.
.

If people had complete free will then they would be ABLE to obey the commandments perfectly. This means that it is possible for a person to live a sin free life, just like Jesus, and therefore have no need for a savior. Alan I think you should reconsider your position. Oh yea I forgot, you put me on ignore so you can't read my post. Well continue on posting to yourself.

[alanmolstad]

Now that I have looked at the question of man's salvation from strictly the human (limited) POV, I think I might spend a little time and look at some of the same issues from God's (all-knowing) POV.

No one is accidentally saved.
The fact that some Joe-**** is saved is the result of the direct action of god to intervene into the person's life and make them saved.

its than simple...

God makes us saved.
we cant just say it was 'accidental" from god's point of view..

nor can we just try to say that God left the salvation of Joe up to random chance, or the flip of a coin.

another thing we cant say is that God just acted to save joe because god also just happened to see the future and so was just setting things up to happen as he foresaw.
You cant say that about God for that in effect makes God powerless to to a future out of his control.

God actually has full control of the future.

thus the fact that Joe ends up saved is , (and always was) predetermined...pre-planned, and a 100% guarantee of happening because god used his authority to MAKE it happen.

[alanmolstad]

so....this gets us back in this study of the Calvinist-Arminian debate to the conclusion I came to back in Bible school.

#1 - Man has Free Will

and yet at the same time and without confrontation or contradiction:

#2 - God is sovereign.

Both ideas are 100% true

God is in control of my life, and it is no accident that im saved, while at the same time I have free Will.

even my Free Will is no accident, but was predetermined to me before the world was made by God.

[alanmolstad]

so then within our free will can we always do correct things?



Thats the point of being asked to do correct things.
As i have said a few times, now, the fact that God gave us the commandments in that act alone we have all the proof we need that we can keep the commandments....
There would be no point in God asking his children to keep the commandments, if the kids were unable to do so.....that would be insane!
No good father will demand his children do things that the children are unable to do.



But we are not just a spirit that is willing to always do what is right....we are also mortal flesh that is weak.

It is this flesh that is the stumbling point, and this also is the reason we see the Bible talk about the "redemption" of the body.
This body of flesh gets to speak to us in ways that counter the voice we hear from our Spirits to always do what is right.


Thus the the two edged sword of free Will is at work in us.

we can do what is right all the time, for our Spirit longs to do what is right all the time.

However also within our free will can we also do what is evil all the time?

yes.

This is the struggle with the flesh that Paul speaks of.
So its not that we cant do what is right, that fact that we are asked to always do what is right proves 100% that we can do what is always right....

So if we can always do what is right, and the fact that we are asked to do this proves it is true, then why do we fail so much?

The flesh.

Thus the cross of Christ is there for when we struggle to know or do what is right.
The human capacity to understand things is limited....we make bad decisions, and when we do the cross of Christ is there to cleanse us from the effects of bad decisions.

[Billyray]

We are NEVER asked to do something we cant do.


Can a person live a perfect life thus not needing the sacrifice of Jesus for salvation?

You see Alan backed himself into a corner. If he answered my question that is consistent with his position then he would have to answer that yes a person can live a perfect life and not need the sacrifice of Jesus for salvation. He has no choice but to change his position OR put me on ignore. He chose the dishonorable thing and put me on ignore.

[alanmolstad]

Thus the cross of Christ is there for when we struggle to know or do what is right.
.
Within the clasic debate between Calvinist-Arminian positions we read about a lot of lists for how the story of salvation is organized.

I think all that list making is rather silly.

What i have seen is that for every guy out there drawing up a list, there is another guy reading his Bible and drawing up a totally different list.

the whole "list mentality" is dependent on a person's personal point of view.

One guy says there are like 4 steps to salvation.
The next guy says there are 9 steps....
and yes, im sure there is some guy with a 12 step program to salvation too...LOL

I try to keep my own list short.
as short as i can make it.

The Bible says we are saved by Grace though faith.
and that faith come by hearing, and hearing by the word of God....

thats about all there is to my list.

Grace is what saves us.
The conduit of Grace is faith.
The conduit of faith is hearing.
The conduit of hearing is the Word....

So at the start there is grace...at the end there is Grace,,,and all along the path there is grace.

and what Grace does is kick the ball off with the word of God, (the bible)
The Bible opens the door for hearing Jesus call to us....
Answering that calling of Jesus (the knock on the door to our hearts) opens the door for faith to grow in us....

and faith in the Resurrection of Jesus Christ is all that is needed to find salvation and Live everlasting..

[Billyray]

The Bible says we are saved by Grace though faith.
and that faith come by hearing, and hearing by the word of God....



Both sides agree with this Alan.

[TheSword99]

Both sides agree with this Alan.

I have just read all the posts on this thread and noticed that you never once addressed the OP. Alan made a very good point about how God never asks us to do some that we are unable to do. Coming to Christ has nothing whatsoever to do with obeying all of the Commandments perfectly. The Bible says all who are weary and downtrodden can come to Christ. The worst sinner can come to Christ. The thief certainly did. Christ died for the sinner, the pros***ute, the criminal, the outcast, the leper. ALL can come to Christ. And everyday they do.


The bible does indeed teach that man has a free will..That man can choose either to accept or reject Jesus Christ. If he chooses to reject Christ he will be held accountable on Judgment Day. Several Christians told you that on the Mormon category. Not once did any Christian agree with you.

I was invited to check out this thread, but I'm really not interested in rehashing this all over again with you, Billy. Nor am I Arminian just because I do not believe in Calvin's false teachings.

You can go back to playing with Alan.

[Billyray]

I have just read all the posts on this thread and noticed that you never once addressed the OP. Alan made a very good point about how God never asks us to do some that we are unable to do. .

Are we able to keep all of the commandments?

[Billyray]

Coming to Christ has nothing whatsoever to do with obeying all of the Commandments perfectly

I never said that once Sword. In fact nobody can keep the commandments can they?

[Billyray]

The bible does indeed teach that man has a free will.

So you would agree that man is free to choose to obey the commandments perfectly without ever sinning correct?

[Billyray]

Sword do you believe those who are spiritually dead in sins and tresp***es have the desire or ability to seek after God on their own OR do you think that God has to draw them?

[alanmolstad]

You can go back to playing with Alan.

See, I was hopeful to "tap out' and watch you ...

Im not sure I have much interest left to add to this topic.
and the fact that I have now BLOCKED forever Billy seems to be a sign that this topic has run along as far as its going.

I dont have any of the notes I made on this topic left over from 25 years ago and the other side of the country...and my memory is not that great at topics like this that I dont have any real interest in.

But then again....

Perhaps that "indifference" to this topic is why i don't get swept up very easy in the debates over it?

one of the things i do remember from my cl*** is that we had this one guy in the cl*** who was dead serious that the Calvinist position was the only correct one.
He was so sure of this that he went so far as to even question the christian faith of people that disagreed with him.

Well, if you know me at all, you know that is like ringing the dinner bell to me..."I GOT TO MESS WITH THAT GUY'S MIND"

I raised my hand after one of his long-winded answers about the depravity of man, and asked..."Whats the difference?"

at first he didnt catch the meaning of my question, but I went on to ask,,"Whats the real final difference between the Calvinist-Arminian positions?

Before he answered, i interrupted him with the answer "NONE!
There is no difference between if one is right and the other is wrong.
There is nothing different about these answers in the long run.
They change nothing.
They add nothing to the christian faith.
It doesn't matter squat if one is right and the other is wrong, because nothing changes no matter what answer is correct.
I mean, what changes even if they are both wrong?.....
ZIP!
Nothing!
in fact if both are wrong.....Nothing changes about anything.
Life goes on, and I still have to mow the gr*** today"

Over the years I have come to see the whole Calvinist-Arminian debate as academic only.

Its a minor concern for guys who study things like this , but for the vast majority of Christians this is a meaningless debate over details that offer no comfort to anyone.

in other words, it doesn't matter who is right, because in the end nothing changes no matter what anybody says...

There is however a danger present whenever this topic pops up.
The danger is that there are some Christians who lean to the extremes, and do their best to represent the Lunatic Fringe, and seem to use this debate as a way to attack other Christians to the point of calling into question each other's faith.

That is really my only interest in this debate.
I just seek to make sure that guys like the one in my cl*** that felt so smug in their views dont have a chance to burden others with this same smugness.....

[Billyray]

I have just read all the posts on this thread and noticed that you never once addressed the OP.
Here is what Alan said in the first two lines of his OP


The The Calvinist-Arminian debate is academic.

it is a debate between two views that both have a lot of bible support.


. . .because I do not believe in Calvin's false teachings.
. . .
Huh?

BTW Sword as I have said all along each side has scripture to support their position. I have always stated that I understand and respect your position. But you do not respect my position. Rather you have called my position false and either you or Erik called the Reformed position a Christian cult.

[Billyray]

The danger is that there are some Christians who lean to the extremes, and do their best to represent the Lunatic Fringe, and seem to use this debate as a way to attack other Christians to the point of calling into question each other's faith.
Which of course is exactly what Erik and Sword have done


. . .You know Billy, its always the cults, or those who teach false doctrines that believe only certain people can be saved. . .
Here is Sword referring to the Reformed position as a "cult"


. . .I thought you were a christian, but your actions and understanding of what the scriptures actually does teach, seems to proves otherwise. . .
And here is Erik labeling me a non Christian


Just so everyone is clear. I have always stated that I believe that each side has good points. Scripture can be used in support of each side. I have a fair understanding of Erik and Sword's position and I respect their viewpoint. Never did I call their Christianity into question. But both have called mine into question.

[alanmolstad]

Alan made a very good point about how God never asks us to do some that we are unable to do. ......

Let me build on this a moment...

The foundation of the faith is built on 'trust"
We Christians just have to trust God to be able to keep his word.
The things that we cant actually prove (Like we will be raised from the dead like Jesus) we have to place our trust in that God was telling the truth, and when he said he could raise us up at the last day, that he is actually able to do this.

It would not just be pointless for God to tell us He will do things that he actually could not do, it would be evil of Him.
We have to have a consistent honesty from God in order to know we can trust Him.

God does not get to be honest 'most" of the time.

This means that when God asks us to do something , we have to be able to do it.
Asking us to do things that we cant do would not just be pointless, it would be evil of God.

God's honesty demands that when he tells us to do something, that we must be able to do it.

of course "able to" and "Likely to" are two different ideas....
But the fact that we are asked by God to do something means that we are 100% able to do that very thing....

God does not ask us to do things we cant do.
God can not ask us to do things we can not do.

[Billyray]

God does not ask us to do things we cant do.
God can not ask us to do things we can not do.
Thus by your own admission you CAN keep all of the commandments. And it is possible for a person to live a perfect life just like Jesus. But any Christian worth his salt knows that this simply is not true.

[alanmolstad]

. Nor am I Arminian just because I do not believe in Calvin's false teachings.
.

My position too...I see the good points in each side of the question, but also the HUGE flaws each side has going too....

Im my own view, if you are stuck on supporting only one side you are blind to the merits of the other side....

[dfoJC]

Hi everyone, I am not quite sure how to approach the at***udes I see being displayed in this thread. Not going to point fingers or anything like that but I would just like to remind us that yes, it is good to have healthy debate and even to offer our opinions on doctrines or belief.

But let us do so in the spirit of kindness, being ready to forgive if someone offends us, this will help us to demonstrate what it is to be a Christian. It will speak volumes to those who don't post and just read what we are saying.

I do thank you for the truths and knowledge that you share here at WM, keep up the good work.

dfoJC

[alanmolstad]

#1 - Man has Free Will

and yet at the same time and without confrontation or contradiction:

#2 - God is sovereign.

Both ideas are 100% true

God is in control of my life, and it is no accident that im saved, while at the same time I have free Will.
For even my Free Will is no accident, but was predetermined to me before the world was made by God.

So that is how we all have Free Will within the rule of God over His universe.
If you have a chance, and still don't understand how man's free Will works?,,,try to read my example of being on a big ship and having freedom to walk and stand and sit, and many things that have nothing to do with the control of the ship and its direction.

Does man have the ability to do what god has asked?
If he cant there would have been no point in God asking us to do things we cant do.

So there is nothing physically or mentally limiting about humans that keep us from following what God has told us to do.
But we should never mix up the "ability" to do something with the "likelihood" of it happening.

God has asked us to do things , to be sure.
But nothing He has asked us to do is actually beyond our abilities....
I think we all see that any god that asks his children to do more than they ever could do, and then sends them to hell when they fail is a monster.

Does a good father demand his children do things he knows that can never do? ( would a father ask his baby to change a car tire?)....and when they give their effort to do what is well out of their ability to do, would a good father punish them for their failure?....(would a father spank the baby for being unable to change the car tire?)

no?...

Then how could a loving God ask His children to do things he already knew they were not able to do?
Would hell even exist if we were not free-willed creatures?......

I dont think so....LOL:D

This means that the proof that we have Free Will is found in the creation of a Hell....
For I think we all know that a god that would create a Hell would not sentence people to burn forever in its fire unless the person had the free will and could have chosen to act in a manner that would have allowed them to another fate.

a loving god could not create men with no free will, and then send them to hell for being unable to do things they were not able to do anyway......:D

God's justice demands humans have Free Will.

[alanmolstad]

Hi everyone, I am not quite sure how to approach ......I did give him plenty of warning....but he has Free Will to do what he wants....:D

[Billyray]

#1 - Man has Free Will

and yet at the same time and without confrontation or contradiction:

#2 - God is sovereign.

Both ideas are 100% true



Alan they are mutually exclusive.

[alanmolstad]

Alan they are mutually exclusive.


No they are not.

God is sovereign,
and because God has such confidence in his rule over the universe He has granted onto man to have Free Will.

a lesser god could not do this.
a lesser god would never dare offer Free Will to His creation because he would be worried that things would soon get out of His control.

But the God of the bible is not one bit worried about such things.

This is why we have Free Will...because our God actually is sovereign.

any questions?

[alanmolstad]

I have just read all the posts on this thread and noticed that you never once addressed the OP.



Alan made a very good point about how God never asks us to do some that we are unable to do. .

I also noticed that Billy was unable to answer my point about if God asked us to do things he knew were were unable to do?

I think we all understand that if a parent asks a child to do things that they simply are unable to do, that it would be then wrong for that parent to condemn the child for attempting to do what was asked of them and then failing.

[TheSword99]

I also noticed that Billy was unable to answer my point about if God asked us to do things he knew were were unable to do?

I think we all understand that if a parent asks a child to do things that they simply are unable to do, that it would be then wrong for that parent to condemn the child for attempting to do what was asked of them and then failing.

So true. When a person believes in something so strongly, its hard to convince them of their errors. I don't know how much exposure Billy has had to the truth, but he went from Mormonism to Calvinism. Both are extreme with some false teachings. Only the Holy Spirit can open Billy's eyes. I pray that happens.

[alanmolstad]

what is true is that this question is both important , and a moot point at the same time.

The question of human Free Will is interesting and appeals to some Christians who study this issue.

But the thing I like to point out is that regardless of the position on this issue a guy takes, nothing actually changes.
There is really no difference between going to a church that teaches that man has Free Will and going to a church that teaches that man has no free will.

Nothing actually is any different.

Oh there might be a sermon or two that is very different, but that's about it.

This is basically an academic question with no real significance to it by itself.

Thus the foolishness of some Christians to get all in-your-face excited over this question is plain to see.

So what is the merit of this debate?
The benefit of this debate is that it shows the Lost world that Christians are not robots where we all have to think the same.

This question also is a good one for people in CULTS to follow as it brings to their attention a subject they may have forgotten as they got swept up in the CULT......

"Freedom of thought"

Thats the really only thing about this debate I find much merit in.
That we in the Christian church have a freedom that you cant share if you are in a CULT.

Im not in a CULT....one of the proofs of this is that I am always free to totally disagree with my own church leadership.

There is liberty to debate in the Christian church.
There is freedom of thought, freedom to express one's thoughts that is about the 1st thing a person gives up when they become a member of a CULT.

There is merit in being free to make one's own mistakes.
people in CULTs are kept from thinking for themselves, its the trade-off the person makes to be what they consider always 'right"

The need to be always right means you have to get rid of the desire to be always "free"

I desire to be free more than I desire to be always right., But a person in a CULT has a different goal than mine.

That's why guys like me dont last long in a CULT.
Guys like me call into questions things that go against the Bible....We stand up and disagree on points where we see error.
We dont give a darn if this makes our church look bad to others....

We dont give a rip about marching in lock-step with our church leadership.....

Freedom means more to us that our church looking good.

[alanmolstad]

The Calvinist-Arminian debate

another thing to keep in mind is that the Calvinist-Arminian debate never ends in any difference for people.

This means that while we have many members of the christian church that fight very hard to prove they are correct on this issue, the net result of all their struggle is......"Nothing"

Nothing changes.
The life of the average Christian does not change at all from going from one side of this debate to the other.

This then means that this whole issue falls into the category of being a rather minor issue with no real effect on Christians.

Compare this question to say another question that gets debated from time to time...like..."Baptism"

Now Baptism is a VERY IMPORTANT question for people to debate as the results of that debate can have a very real effect on people's lives.

The age someone get baptized, the steps a person had to take to get baptized, and the form of that baptism all matter to average Christians.
The issue of baptism is far more important that the debate over the truth of Calvinism.


why is this fact important ?
Its important because of the fact that on this and other forums I have watched guys go crazy over the Calvinist-Arminian debate to the point they ended up getting banned.

think of that for a moment....

a guy gets banned over the most minor of issues in the Christian church?


how does that happen?

I think the reason is, that some people just dont think before they speak or write.


What advice would I give a guy who has ended up banned from a message forum over his total failed attempt to have a nice conversation over the most minor of issues?

I would tell that guy that he needs to "Repent"
To "Repent" means to "Re" - "think"...or to "Think again"

In more modern wording the phrase would be "Spend some of your new free time thinking over how you ended up where you are so that next time you dont end up there once again"

[alanmolstad]

UPDATE:

The Bible Answer Man seems to support my views!

http://www.facebook.com/topic.php?uid=55979377851&topic=16108&post=111350#post111350

[Billyray]

Only the Holy Spirit can open Billy's eyes. I pray that happens.

Sword I hope that God opens up your eyes because as I see it you went from Catholicism to Arminianism (despite your denial). Do you realize that the original teachings from the Protestant Reformation were Reformed beliefs? The ideas of Arminian came later and were renounced at the Synod of Dort.

[Billyray]

God NEVER asks me to do something I am unable to do....(God is not a moron)
Alan, can you obey the commandments perfectly and live a life like Christ?

[alanmolstad]

Alan, can you obey the commandments perfectly and live a life like Christ?

I have answered that question already....
You seem stuck on it...its like you don't get the answer you want so you cant get past it?...

Tough luck kid....

Here is how I roll....I never put up with trouble makers or people that babble on and on without a clue....
I ban them by adding their names on my IGNORE LIST...

However if I should later find that someone on my IGNORE LIST has actually been banned by the forum owner, then i believe it is better that i un-ban them from being on my IGNORE LIST because not doing that might make me guilty of adding to/getting in the way of, a problem that is being dealt with by the forum owner.


However, asking the same question over and over is a sign that the conversation is reaching its limit...


4 the final time...
..... once again the answer that i gave a long time ago....

God NEVER asks us to do things that we cant do, nor would he then condemn us for failing to do what we were unable to do in the first place...
Thus....lets look at the things our Lord Jesus told us to do.


Lets look at the Christian idea of "Love your enemy"

Is there anything about this concept that is physically out of our ability to do?.......NO!

Ok.....then is there anything mentally too hard about the concept that is simply beyond our limited human minds to understand?.......NO!

So there is nothing really all that hard to understand about the idea of loving your enemy.....

So does my being able to understand this statement by Christ mean Im likely going to fulfill it all the time, every day of my life, until the day i die?.....HECK NO!

My being able to do something does not mean I'm likely to always do it....

So the FINAL ANSWER IS = God would NEVER ask me to do anything that i cant do.

God never asked me to flap my arms and fly like a bird to be saved...

God never asked me to Drink 1 million gal of acid before I can be saved.

God did not do that, and never asked me to do that because I cant and God knows I cant do such things...

But we have been told to do a few things by God, and they are things God knows we can do...

But when any of us fail we have an advocate with the father....


That (in a nutshell) is the answer i gave to this question a long time ago...

See posts # 15, 17, 19, 22, 24, 29, 31, 35, 37, on this topic if you have any farther questions on this matter.

[Billyray]

God NEVER asks us to do things that we cant do, nor would he then condemn us for failing to do what we were unable to do in the first place...
Then you have to believe that it is possible for you to live a perfect life like Christ. Alan this is completely false and nobody believes this. You should reconsider your position.

[alanmolstad]

Let me say this again to be very clear...

God never asks us to do things we cant do.
if God did, or if your god does that to you, then you worship the Devil.

For Satan loves to tempt man into attempting to do things he knows full well we cant do.

But when God tells us to do something (Like the Commandments) is all based on the fact that God knows we are capable of doing what He asks...(see John 8:51 )

[alanmolstad]

The Big Question some people about about this debate is "Does man have Free Will or not?"

The answer I came to after looking at all the arguments is that "Yes, man has Free Will"

But the trick is, is that our free Will works within the over-all sovereignty of the Lord.

In other words, God's plans for you do not fail because of your Free Will.
This only makes sense because after all, who gave you Free Will in the first place?.....

God did...

Your Free will allows you to return the love God has for his creation.

Rocks cant love.
Trees cant love.
air and water cant love...

without our Free Will all we would have is instinctive programing.
We would be unable to answer the calling of God on our hearts....we would be unable to love.

We would be without sin....that's true...
But we would be little more than algae as far as being able to respond to God and love Him.

But we can love and this makes us so very special to the Lord.
And it is only our free will that allows us to Love God.

[alanmolstad]

Now for other people, the biggest problem they face is understanding how man can in fact have Free will yet God be sovereign?

This was also a question asked of me back in the day when I was in bible school and we had to study the Calvinist/Arminian debate and give a report of my conclusions.

At the time I saw how both sides of the debate had some merit, yet both sides also had a blindness too when they looked and did not see the merit of the other side.

As I searched for a way to help the people who don't believe man has Free Will to understand how we do, and how it yet is able to work within the rule of God, I came up with the example of the people on a ship at sea.

THE SHIP EXAMPLE:
The p***engers on-board a ship at sea have the complete freedom to do more or less whatever they want to do in their cabins.
They can sit up late and read if they want to.
They can take a shower if they want to.
They can get dressed up nice, or just sit in their PJ's and watch TV.

Its up to them to decide what they will do.

and yet the Captain is always in charge of everything that goes on on-board his ship.

Nothing the p***engers do in their rooms has the slightest difference to the authority of the Captain to command his ship.

The fact that the Captain allows the p***engers to do whatever they feel like in their cabins is not a threat to the authority of the Captain has to command his ship to go where he alone directs.

IN LIKE MANNER...
I have free will under the sovereignty of God.

When I get up in the morning I can put my left foot down on the floor first, or my right foot down first.
I have the freedom to decide this for myself.
Free Will allows for me to make this decision for myself.

No one forces me to put on foot down on the floor before the other.
I don't have to pray about the matter.
I don't have to consider "What does the bible say?" about what foot to put down first....

I can just put whatever foot I want down onto the floor first,

The fact that I have the needed free will to allow me to make this decision on my own does not mean "God has lost control!"

Its not a question of being "Either God is in control or man is" as some who argue against human free Will would have us believe.

[Billyray]

God never asks us to do things we cant do.
if God did, or if your god does that to you, then you worship the Devil.



Alan this would mean that you are able to keep all the commandments perfectly. Is that what you mean?

[alanmolstad]

Alan this would mean that you are able to keep all the commandments perfectly. Is that what you mean?

Let me say this again to be very clear...

God never asks us to do things we cant do.
if God did, or if your god does that to you, then you worship the Devil.

For Satan loves to tempt man into attempting to do things he knows full well we cant do.

But when God tells us to do something (Like the Commandments) is all based on the fact that God knows we are capable of doing what He asks...(see John 8:51

[alanmolstad]

Insanity Is Doing The Same Thing The Same Way And Expecting A Different Outcome....

[Billyray]

God never asks us to do things we cant do.
if God did, or if your god does that to you, then you worship the Devil.


Alan, you can't keep the commandments perfectly. What does that tell you?

[Billyray]

Insanity Is Doing The Same Thing The Same Way And Expecting A Different Outcome....

Or giving me the same wrong answer.

[alanmolstad]

god never asks us to do things we cant do...

therefore if we fail at doing something the cause of our failure is not that the thing was too hard, ,,,or to heavy.,,,

I did not kill anyone today...I kept that commandment all day long.
But does this fact mean Im going to keep it tomorrow?....nope.

Being able to keep the law does not mean we are likely to keep it.

Following all the word of God on Monday does not help on Tuesday.

[Billyray]

god never asks us to do things we cant do...


So can you keep the law perfectly or not? This is not meant to be a difficult question Alan.

[alanmolstad]

So can you keep the law perfectly or not? This is not meant to be a difficult question Alan.

refer to post #85 in the future when thinking about asking that question in the future....thanks

[Billyray]

refer to post #85 in the future when thinking about asking that question in the future....thanks
Here is post #85



But when God tells us to do something (Like the Commandments) is all based on the fact that God knows we are capable of doing what He asks...(see John 8:51
So you believe that it is possible to obey the commandments perfectly just like Jesus. Alan do you believe that this is Biblical?

[alanmolstad]

Billy......unless you have some point to make Im going to put you on my Ignore List now.

I warned you and warned you that while I can put up fine with people who disagree with me, I will not put up with people who babble and ask the same questions over and over and over and over and over..

If you have a point to make?...then you better get to it today.

Or else? or else you and I are more than done dealing with each other.

I took you off of my IGNORE list because you had been Banned by the ownership of this forum.

Why did I do that?
The reason is I feel that one of the ways a Forum owner like this site's has to get a person to change their ways is the offer that if they do show better manners then their posting privileges will return.

I was thinking that posting to me might be seen by you as a helpful encouragement to change your ways.

That is why on any forum Im a member of when someone on my IGNORE list actually latter gets banned i try to take them off of my IGNORE list to give them the opportunity to later come back and start fresh with me and the whole forum.

But in your case I have found that you have learned nothing.

thus, Im telling you that unless you got a point to make, I will add you to my IGNORE LIST from now on to every forum Im a member of .


Get to the point Billy, or move on....

[Billyray]

Get to the point Billy, or move on....
My point? You are wrong. Is that clear enough for you?

[alanmolstad]

My point? You are wrong. Is that clear enough for you?
There is a nice little line you can stand in for people who think Im wrong....take a number.

Is there any other point, or can we move on now?

[Billyray]

So the FINAL ANSWER IS = God would NEVER ask me to do anything that i cant do.
False. Nobody except Christ can keep all of the commandments.

[alanmolstad]

False. Nobody except Christ can keep all of the commandments.
and that is why all my children go to Sunday school to learn about the "10 Suggestions"...


ha,ha, ha...

I dont think so Billy.

[Billyray]

and that is why all my children go to Sunday school to learn about the "10 Suggestions"...


ha,ha, ha...

I dont think so Billy.
I know so Alan. Your belief that a man can obey the commandments perfectly and live a life just like Christ is absolutely false. The only person that has done this is Christ.

[alanmolstad]

I know so Alan. Your belief that a man can obey the commandments perfectly and live a life just like Christ is absolutely false. The only person that has done this is Christ.


Of the 10 Commandments, what number is the one that God told us clearly that man was not expected to keep but was just God's little suggestion and He was never all that serious about the issue?...LOL

Here is a question for you to chew on.
According to JOHN 14:15 what is the sign you love Christ?

[Billyray]

Of the 10 Commandments, what number is the one that God told us clearly that man was not expected to keep but was just God's little suggestion and He was never all that serious about the issue?...LOL

We are commanded to keep them all. But we can't.

[Billyray]

Here is a question for you to chew on.
According to JOHN 14:15 what is the sign you love Christ?
Do you keep ALL of the commandments and live a life free from sin?

[alanmolstad]

Do you keep ALL of the commandments and live a life free from sin?
I should tell you and any reading this why I have no been reluctantly forced to place you on my "IGNORE list"

You ask the same questions over and over.
Its no fun at all to try to have a conversation with someone who just simply says the same thing over and over without allowing the conversation to flow normally.

I consider behavior of your Billy to be bad manners.

I consider my own posts to be worth people taking the time to read, but when it becomes clear that im dealing with a person who is not actually interested in a real conversation, then I put their names on my IIGNORE list forever..

unless you get your **** banned by the forum owner again...

in that case, (If I once again see you listed as Banned) then I will take your name off my IGNORE list with the idea that you may have learned your lesson and as a reward you should be allowed to once again try to have a normal conversation with me.

I will also see about using the IGNORE setting at the other forums where you and i might accidentally bump into each other....(why drag that out)


take care....

[Billyray]

I should tell you and any reading this why I have no been reluctantly forced to place you on my "IGNORE list"
Alan I guess for you it is easier to run rather than admit you are wrong. You did this same thing on the CARM "Arminian verses Calvinism--Free Will" thread when Theo was pinning you to the wall. So it is not just me that has tried to expose your error. Maybe some day you will see your error.

[Billyray]

. . .as a reward you should be allowed to once again try to have a normal conversation with me.


I hate to tell you this Alan but I don't consider having a conversation with you to be a reward.

[alanmolstad]

* Posted this on wrong topic, here it is as it should have appeared *


The Free Will issue....



One of the central ideas of the Christian faith is the idea that we have Free Will, and that while we do have this gift, , the free Will we have operates well within the sovereignty of God over creation.


The Bible gives us a very clear example of how our freedom/ability/power to carry out our own wills is always yet under the sovereignty of God.

The example I speak of is found at JOHN 19:10
This verse and the one after it shows us clearly how both Free Will and God's sovereignty work in our lives.

""Do you refuse to speak to me?" Pilate said. "Don't you realize I have power either to free you or to crucify you?"
This is human free will at work.
Pilate had the total free will to do what he wanted with Jesus.
He could let him go
He could send him to his death.
It was only Pilate's call to make.

No one was there that had any real power at all to force what decision was to happen.
Pilate could ***ign values to things to understand that he and he alone could value this or that more highly that other things as he thought about what he was about to do.

This is how we all see our human free will.

This is the very heart of the call the Christian puts out for people to "repent" and draw closer to God though Christ.
Unless we had this type of ability to make our own decisions, there would be no need, no point in asking people to repent.

So that is how Free Will is understood and taught in the Bible...

Next we will read the words of Christ as he shows us how God's Sovereignty works with Free Will.

John 19:11
"Jesus answered, "You would have no power over me if it were not given to you from above. Therefore the one who handed me over to you is guilty of a greater sin.

Here we see how Human Free Will does not confront the Sovereignty of God at all.
The Free Will of Pilate is within the rule and control of God at all times....yet is never squashing the human free will at any time.

The fact that Jesus never once contradicts Pilate shows us that Jesus knew Pilate had the free will to do whatever he wanted.
But Jesus does point out the fact that God's Sovereignty is beyond human free will to counteract.
that human free will is a GIFT from God!

In the last part of the verse Jesus reminds us that we still will suffer for our sins, no matter the Sovereignty of God over creation.
That we and we alone are responsible for our actions, and they when we sin we face a Judgement for our sins.

And to sum it up?
All that I believe of Free Will is in full agreement with Dr Walter Martin as shown here - http://www.besked.se/audio/WM_EC31_1.mp3

[Billyray]

One of the central ideas of the Christian faith is the idea that we have Free Will. . .
what verses teach that we are free to do anything we please whenever we please?

[alanmolstad]

* Posted this on wrong topic, here it is as it should have ap
The example I speak of is found at JOHN 19:10
This verse and the one after it shows us clearly how both Free Will and God's sovereignty work in our lives.

""Do you refuse to speak to me?" Pilate said. "Don't you realize I have power either to free you or to crucify you?"
This is human free will at work.
Pilate had the total free will to do what he wanted with Jesus.
...........
John 19:11
"Jesus answered, "You would have no power over me if it were not given to you from above. Therefore the one who handed me over to you is guilty of a greater sin.

Here we see how Human Free Will does not confront the Sovereignty of God at all.
The Free Will of Pilate is within the rule and control of God at all times....yet is never squashing the human free will at any time.

The fact that Jesus never once contradicts Pilate shows us that Jesus knew Pilate had the free will to do whatever he wanted.
But Jesus does point out the fact that God's Sovereignty is beyond human free will to counteract.
that human free will is a GIFT from God!

.....

I think a lot of people that argue from the lunatic ends just read only one side of the conversation between Jesus and Pilate and don't catch the true meanings.

What is going on in their conversation is the very heart of the whole free will/Sovereignty debate.

The verses are all the proof that we need to prove that Man has free.
The verses are all we need to also prove that God is sovereign.
Both ideas are at work in the story.\Both are in effect and yet we never are to believe there is any confrontation between the two ideas.

[alanmolstad]

Does God ever ask a person to do things the person is unable to do?......

The answer is....no!

All that God asks of us is within our ability to do.
If it were not within our ability then there would be no point in asking us to do it.

Another thing to keep in mind....If we are totally unable to do something that God has commanded us to do, then there would be no way for God to legitimately judge us for failing to do what he asked.

God could never send anyone to Hell for failing to keep his Commandments if we were unable to keep them.
it is only because there is nothing about the Commandments that is beyond our ability to keep that God has the legitimate right to judge us for failing to keep them.

What we have to always remember however, is that the "ABILITY" to do something is not the same as the "LIKELIHOOD" to do it.

All of us have the "ability" to lead a sinless life and fulfill all the things that god might ask us to follow.
There is nothing out of reach for any of the Laws and Commandments that appear in the Bible.
There is no hard math involved.
No super-duper hard mountain to climb.
No heavy rock we have to lift and carry.

But the fact that we all know we have the "ability" to keep all the law does not make it "Likely" at all that we could do so day after day....LOL

It's like...
(a true story)
It's like the time I invited a friend to come to church with me and my wife.
I knew this friend was trapped in a lot of false teachings, and his faith life was at a dead end.
So i invited him to church with us in the hope that he might be moved by the Alter Call at the end, and walk forward.

But he just sat though the Alter call and that was that.

Now did he have the ability to step out and go forward?>....yes!
I made sure we sat near the front, so it was not a long walk.
I made sure he sat on the end so there was no one in his way.
He has two strong legs and so i knew he could walk forward when the Alter Call was made to do so.

So my friend had the "ABILITY" to answer the Alter Call.
But just having the ability does not mean it's going to be "LIKELY'' .

Its the same with all that God asks us to do.
We have the ability to do what is asked....but it's not very likely to be sure that we will always do it.

So the Law of God was never meant to be a trick question.

[alanmolstad]

about this recording - http://www.besked.se/audio/WM_EC31_1.mp3

Although I had listened to tons of recordings of Walter Martin over the years, and I never missed a radio show, to tell the truth I did not actually know what Walter's views on this topic were when I first started posting my own here.

So I was a bit nervous when I clicked on that link to listen to what he taught, knowing that if Walter Martin disagreed with me that I would be forced to share that information with others too, and due to my respect of all that Martin taught I would have to spend some time on my own thinking about what he was saying.

However, as I listened to this short recording I was struck by how Walter was taking the words right out of my mouth!...LOL

He and I are in total agreement on the errors of Calvinism!

I have tried to search out and find more recordings of Walter Martin teaching on this same issue of the errors of Calvinism, but mostly i just keep finding YouTube videos of his debates with the CULTS and stuff like that.


Now that I found this one little recording i plan to hang on to it and use it in a lot of my posts, because of the respect most Christians have of Martin, and the fact that this whole website is created in his memory.

No one would even be here in the first place unless they understood the importance of the work of Walter Martin.

[Billyray]

God NEVER asks me to do something I am unable to do....(God is not a moron)
Alan, can you obey the commandments perfectly and live a life like Christ?

[Billyray]

Does God ever ask a person to do things the person is unable to do?......

The answer is....no!

Actually Alan the answer is yes. You are completely wrong on this one.

[alanmolstad]

By the way, if anyone reading this knows of other places where Walter Martin spoke on this topic I would enjoy having a chance to go over that too.



So far I have had no luck in finding a short recording of Martin speaking on this issue.
He may have taught on the topic as part of a longer sermon on the CULTS.....but that may be had to find now and he p***ed away before the internet and Youtube got cooking, so everything he spoke about has to be uploaded now later by interested persons.

[alanmolstad]

Again, to make sure you understand...
I do not place people on my IGNORE LIST because they ask questions, or because they disagree with me, or because they are in a CULT or because they are a different religion or color or from a different country.

But I only place people on my IGNORE LIST after I have warned them over and over about showing bad manners, or breaking the forum rules.
This is why there are only 2 names on my IGNORE list.

Once a person gets on my IGNORE LIST I believe I am better off not reading their posts from then on.
This is the only form of "correction" I can bring to people.
I can refuse to read their words....

Now there is one way off my IGNORE list and that is if i see someone who is on my IGNORE LIST has been banned by the owner of the forum.

It is my personal view that once a person's behavior has gotten so bad that it caused the owner of the forum to actually take the step to BAN them that i should offer them the chance to come back having learned their lesson.

It is my way of supporting the actions of the forum's owner as she attempts to get people to show better manners on the message board.

Reading my posts should be seen as a type of reward for changing your behavior, just as returning to read YOUR POSTS is a reward for you posting with correct manners.

Until then?...........nice try, but nope you are still not being read.








I should tell you and any reading this why I have no been reluctantly forced to place you on my "IGNORE list"

You ask the same questions over and over.
Its no fun at all to try to have a conversation with someone who just simply says the same thing over and over without allowing the conversation to flow normally.

I consider your behavior Billyray to be bad manners.

I consider my own posts to be worth people taking the time to read, but when it becomes clear that im dealing with a person who is not actually interested in a real conversation, then I put their names on my IIGNORE list forever..

unless you get your **** banned by the forum owner again...

in that case, (If I once again see you listed as Banned) then I will take your name off my IGNORE list with the idea that you may have learned your lesson and as a reward you should be allowed to once again try to have a normal conversation with me.

I will also see about using the IGNORE setting at the other forums where you and i might accidentally bump into each other....(why drag that out)


take care....

[Billyray]

But I only place people on my IGNORE LIST after I have warned them over and over about showing bad manners, or breaking the forum rules.


Alan who are you kidding? When you get backed into a corner you ignore the messenger. This is obvious here and it was obvious on the CARM board.

[Billyray]

Reading my posts should be seen as a type of reward for changing your behavior, just as returning to read YOUR POSTS is a reward for you posting with correct manners.

Alan reading your posts are not a reward but more like slow torture. It pains me to read your false doctrine while at the same time your refusing any feedback to your falsehoods.

[Jean Chauvin]

Hi Alan,


The Bible is clear that once you sin,,,even a small sin, you are "lost".
The Bible is also clear that once you are lost there is no other path to salvation except via the Son.

Unless you wrote something you didnt mean because you attended public school, the statement you posted disqualified you from the Christian Faith.

Onlly one statement disqualifies you, the other does not, it simply makes you extremely impotent. Thus you have theological E.D.

You hold to a pure cl***ical Pelagius position. By saying that once you sin, you are then lost is exactly what his position was. Thus he denied original sin that you are bore into sin (Romans 5:12-18).

Therefore the issue has turned from your ignorance on Calvinism and Arminian to whether or not you are going to hell on the path of heresy you choose.

The semi-pelagianism is what the educated Arminianism proponents would view. That when Adam fell we were not completely dead but sick. Our reason did not fall and we are still able to make decisions.

The Calvinist view would be Augustinian. That original sin means you are completely dead in sin. Your corpse is 10,000 feet under the ocean for 4000 years, your flesh is decayed and your skelton is broken in pieces. Completely dead.

In order for this heretic Alan to justify his complete heresy by taken the pure pelagius view is by saying that God would not ask us to do somethingn if it wasn't true. lol. He fails to define what us means.

Thus, lets focus on this heretic and let an educated person like myself actually represent both sides correctly and have the chips fall where they may.

Alan, either you worded something you did not mean because of your public school education, or you are a complete heretic.

Respectfully,

Jean Chauvin (Jude 3).

[Jean Chauvin]

Hello,

We see that the real issue between Arminianism and Calvinism starts with the fall.

As I said to the potential heretic Alan. there are 3 views to keep in mind.

The Fall (3 Views

Pelagian View - We are not born into sin and are not lost until we sin

Semi-Pelagianism - The fall made me sick. I can still reason but not well

Augustinianism - We were completely dead when born. This includes everything, reason, etc.

Arminism is Semi-Pelagius
Calvinism is Augustinian

Those who hold the Pelagian View are outside of the Chrisitan faith since they violate an essential doctrine to the faith.

See Romans 5:12-18 on this issue.

We need to start with the fall because this is where the beginning of the issue.

Respectfully,

Jean Chauvin (Jude 3).

[alanmolstad]

one sin,,,no matter how small , is more than enough to send a person to hell forever.


one act of faith in Jesus, no matter the years and years of the worst sins a person can do, is still enough to find forgiveness and spend forever in Heaven...


Its like the water of baptism.

If your heart is not ready, then all the water in all the seas is not enough top wash away the stain of the smallest of sins.

But if your heart is read, then one drop of water is more than enough to make your soul totally clean....

[alanmolstad]

As I said to the potential heretic Alan. .

I forgive you....
Your false judgements, (although a hallmark of your posts it seems) are based on ignorance.....but with time I believe a few lights will start to turn on over there...LOL:o

[cheachea]

This is a great video on the subject :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DII1GwVQ4qU

[cheachea]

Does a Born Again Christian have to choose either side ? What if you just don't care either way and just believe in The Lord Jesus Christ ?

What would you call a Christian before John Calvin or Jacobus Arminius were even born ?

[TheSword99]

Does a Born Again Christian have to choose either side ? What if you just don't care either way and just believe in The Lord Jesus Christ ?

What would you call a Christian before John Calvin or Jacobus Arminius were even born ?

Well neither Calvin nor Arminus invented the Predestination doctrine. They just expounded on their interpretation of what the Bible says about it. True Christians do not follow any man.

[alanmolstad]

Unless you wrote something you didnt mean because you attended public school, the statement you posted disqualified you from the Christian Faith.

Onlly one statement disqualifies you, the other does not, it simply makes you extremely impotent. Thus you have theological E.D.

....

In order for this heretic Alan to justify his complete heresy by taken the .......
Thus, lets focus on this heretic and let an educated person like myself actually represent both sides correctly and have the chips fall where they may.

Alan, either you worded something you did not mean because of your public school education, or you are a complete heretic.

Respectfully,

Jean Chauvin (Jude 3).


I never got around to addressing this personal attack...

Anyone know whatever happened to this poster?...as I think I should find a way to respond to this post of his...

[cheachea]

Well neither Calvin nor Arminus invented the Predestination doctrine. They just expounded on their interpretation of what the Bible says about it. True Christians do not follow any man.



Good Comment.

[alanmolstad]

Hi Alan,



Unless you wrote something you didnt mean because you attended public school, the statement you posted disqualified you from the Christian Faith.

Onlly one statement disqualifies you, the other does not, it simply makes you extremely impotent. Thus you have theological E.D.

You hold to a pure cl***ical Pelagius position. By saying that once you sin, you are then lost is exactly what his position was. Thus he denied original sin that you are bore into sin (Romans 5:12-18).

Therefore the issue has turned from your ignorance on Calvinism and Arminian to whether or not you are going to hell on the path of heresy you choose.

The semi-pelagianism is what the educated Arminianism proponents would view. That when Adam fell we were not completely dead but sick. Our reason did not fall and we are still able to make decisions.

The Calvinist view would be Augustinian. That original sin means you are completely dead in sin. Your corpse is 10,000 feet under the ocean for 4000 years, your flesh is decayed and your skelton is broken in pieces. Completely dead.

In order for this heretic Alan to justify his complete heresy by taken the pure pelagius view is by saying that God would not ask us to do somethingn if it wasn't true. lol. He fails to define what us means.

Thus, lets focus on this heretic and let an educated person like myself actually represent both sides correctly and have the chips fall where they may.

Alan, either you worded something you did not mean because of your public school education, or you are a complete heretic.

Respectfully,

Jean Chauvin (Jude 3).

To tell the truth, this post above, as well as most all the others that you seem to put on this forum, smack me of being silly and totally mixed-up.

I don't really think you know what you are talking about most of the time, and you seem to not have a real good grasp of how to set your ideas down in writing so that others might understand you.

I think you are dead wrong about me and my views.
Just as i think you are dead wrong about some judgements you made against a few other members of this message board.

I don't think you got the slightest clue as to what I'm talking about.

I don't think you have the slightest idea what my views are.

I don't think you have a very clear way of posting, and I find most all that you say just a little bit insulting.

I have not tried to seek out your views after you first started to post here as I did not think asking you any questions would prove useful....I have seen other members here attempt to talk to you and have found your responses to them to be very unfriendly and not worth much.

I simply do not think you have many views worth the time they take to read.

I suggest you think before you write something, and think of what is a better way to say something.....
I suggest that before you declare me to be a non-Christian, that you find out a few facts about me first.

[Billyray]

To tell the truth, this post above, as well as most all the others that you seem to put on this forum, smack me of being silly and totally mixed-up.

Alan can you tell me what is "silly and totally mixed-up" with his post below?

Hello,

We see that the real issue between Arminianism and Calvinism starts with the fall.

As I said to the potential heretic Alan. there are 3 views to keep in mind.

The Fall (3 Views

Pelagian View - We are not born into sin and are not lost until we sin

Semi-Pelagianism - The fall made me sick. I can still reason but not well

Augustinianism - We were completely dead when born. This includes everything, reason, etc.

Arminism is Semi-Pelagius
Calvinism is Augustinian

Those who hold the Pelagian View are outside of the Chrisitan faith since they violate an essential doctrine to the faith.

See Romans 5:12-18 on this issue.

We need to start with the fall because this is where the beginning of the issue.

Respectfully,

Jean Chauvin (Jude 3).

[alanmolstad]

I should tell you and any reading this why I have no been reluctantly forced to place you on my "IGNORE list"

You ask the same questions over and over.
Its no fun at all to try to have a conversation with someone who just simply says the same thing over and over without allowing the conversation to flow normally.

I consider behavior of your Billy to be bad manners.

I consider my own posts to be worth people taking the time to read, but when it becomes clear that im dealing with a person who is not actually interested in a real conversation, then I put their names on my IIGNORE list forever..

unless you get your **** banned by the forum owner again...

in that case, (If I once again see you listed as Banned) then I will take your name off my IGNORE list with the idea that you may have learned your lesson and as a reward you should be allowed to once again try to have a normal conversation with me.

I will also see about using the IGNORE setting at the other forums where you and i might accidentally bump into each other....(why drag that out)


take care....





The other day I watched a person get all upset over what another member of this forum had posted...
This reminded me of an issue from a month or so ago where once again a member of this forum could not understand why someone was even allowed to post on a Christian site because they kept posting the same stuff over and over?

My response to these types of situations is to remember that we each have the ability to place someone we don't like on our IGNORE list.
This has been the way in the past I ended bickering with members.
I simply placed their name on my ignore list and that ended the matter, then and there.

Not another peep was heard out of the guy I put on IGNORE.
As far as i was concerned, I have totally BANNED the guy from my screen.

It works like a charm.
I have also learned over the years that people that get put on other's ignore list don't tend to stick around much longer.

The constant reminder that their words will no longer be able to be seen gets to a person after a while, and they tend to go somewhere else to try to start all over.

They must feel like they burned their bridges here, and so move on to new ones.

So in very real ways, putting someone on your ignore list tends to help get rid of someone you don't like around.