Elkenah, Libnah, Mahmackrah and Korash ...Really?

[BrianH]

Mormons will frequently try to cloud the issues pertaining to the so-called “Book of Abraham” (BoA)by pointing to the fact that while we today possess at least SOME of the original document (identified by scholars as the “Sensen Papyrus”), we do not have ALL of it. Apparently they want to insinuate that while the “Book of Abraham” material cannot be correctly derived from any valid translation of the papyrus that we DO have, one COULD show that the BoA was derived from the missing portion ..if we had it.

First of all this is simply a retreat – an admission that one cannot show any connection between the BoA and the original papyrus from which it was supposedly translated by the Mormon “prophet” and his alleged divine gift for translating languages he could not even read.

Secondly, while it is indeed possible that there was additional papyri that Smith used –i.e. that the Sensen papyrus is not complete- the FACT is, Smith himself included materials copied directly from the existing papyrus and claimed to have translated these exact portions where they appear in the BoA. So we absolutely CAN test his claim to have translated this portion of this ancient Egyptian document, even if there might be other portions that we cannot test.

So let’s have a look at just ONE part of Smith’s translation, and then see if he got it right using his supposed divine, prophetic gift of translating ancient languages.

In every copy of the BoA there appears a some “facsimiles” of hieroglyphics copied directly from the images on the existing papyrus, including images of some of Egypt’s mythical gods. In Facsimile #1, Smith identifies the idol figures he numbers as 5, 6, 7 and 8. (These are the four figures that appear beneath the alleged “alter” upon which the claimed figure of “Abraham” is supposedly being sacrificed). The “prophet” Smith, claiming to use his alleged "gift and power of God" to translate languages he could not even read tells us explicitly that these figures represent the idolatrous gods of (his exact words): “Elkenah”, “ Libnah”, “Mahmackrah” and “Korash”.

Now, the simple irrefutable FACT is, these exact same figures appear all over ancient Egyptian documents and artifacts. So for Smith’s claim to be true, we would have to accept that the same images appearing in all those other ancient documents represent the same “gods”. So the question is ...do they? Are these same images appearing here and elsewhere representative of Egyptian gods named, “Elkenah”, “ Libnah”, “Mahmackrah” and “Korash”.

The answer is no, of course.

First of all there are NO Egyptian gods named “Elkenah”, “ Libnah”, “Mahmackrah” and “Korash”. Those names appear NOWHERE in the vast archives of Egyptian literature, mythology, lore and oral tradition. Nor do they appear on any monument or on any other archaeological find. They simply do not exist anywhere in any Egyptian sources. In fact, they appear NOWHERE outside the BoA.

Second, to believe Smith you have to accept that that the Egyptians did not know the names of their own gods because these figures DO consistently correspond throughout all of the ancient Egyptian literature where they appear with the mythical “sons of Horus” known as “Qebehseneuf” (fig. #5 on the papyrus and duplicated in Facsimile #1), “Duamutef” (fig. #6), “Hapy” (fig. #7) and “Imsety” (fig. #8). Even an elementary familiarity with Egyptian lore will quickly inform you that these mythical figures are quite common. In fact, as sons of one of the most important Egyptian deities (Horus) they are rather important figures. For example, Hapy (aka “Hapi”) is the god of the Nile – that all important source of all life for the entire Egyptian civilization. The name means “running one” and refers to the flow of the river. In fact, he was thought to control the annual flooding of the Nile. This word corresponds to other uses of the same word to describe a “running one”. By contrast, Smith's supposedly divine gift for translation lead him to identify "Hapy" as "Mahmackrah" a word that has no Egyptian meaning and in fact, is not even an Egyptian name (nor even a name of anyone in ANY language).

Here’s the problem. There is no Egyptian deity known as “Mahmackrah”. That name appears exactly NOWHERE in any Egyptian literature or lore. There IS an Egyptian deity known as “Hapy”, and he was a pretty important dude to the Egyptians. So his REAL name is quite common and his image is well-known among Egyptologists and other antiquarians. But Smith's name for this figure is totally unknown outside the claims of the LDS organization and its "prophets".

The same is true for literally ALL of the other figures throught the Facsimiles found in every copy of the BoA as published by the LDS church.

If Smith was right, all Egyptian literature needs to be corrected and these idol-gods need to be re-identified to redeem all of Egyptian literature from the gibberish to which it is reduced by the error of 100% of all qualified Egyptologists, linguists, archaeologists, historians to have ever studied ancient Egypt and made the error of mistranslating the names of the Egyptian gods.

On the other hand, if Smith was just making stuff up to fool his hapless, uninformed, unquestioning victims, then the whole field of Egyptology can continue to make sense in its own terms and it is Mormons who must account for the demonstrated fact that they have believed the lies of a not-so-clever occult con artist.

The veracity of the LDS religion hinges on this issue. Either the Mormon “prophet” translated the Sensen papyrus correctly by the same alleged divine gift for translating ancient languages he could not even read, or else he was lying ...or possibly just delusional.

So the challenge to Mormons here is this: SHOW US why we should think that 100% of all qualified Egyptologists and scholars from all related fields are all WRONG to identify these figures as “Qebehseneuf”, “Duamutef”, “Hapy” and “Imsety” and correct the entire academy of Egyptologists by showing us (and them) why those deities are REALLY to be identified as “Elkenah”, “ Libnah”, “Mahmackrah” and “Korash” .

You may begin by showing us that the names used by Joseph Smith AT LEAST existed somewhere in Egyptian lore BEFORE he showed up in the early 1800s and claimed that they did. Then you can conclusively demonstrate the “inspiration” of your so-called “prophet” by simply showing us that the names he used are indeed correctly ***ociated with the idols to which he attached them.

And please ...don’t try to change the subject by making ME (or anyone or anything else) the issue here. Such behaviors will be quickly identified and exposed.

Thank you

-BH

.

[BrianH]

AGAIN, the challenge to Mormons here is this: SHOW US why we should think that 100% of all qualified Egyptologists and scholars from all related fields are all WRONG to identify these figures as “Qebehseneuf”, “Duamutef”, “Hapy” and “Imsety”. Your so-called "prophet" said they are to be identified as “Elkenah”, “ Libnah”, “Mahmackrah” and “Korash”. You have the chance to set the record straight, correct the entire academy of Egyptologists and show the world why those deities are REALLY to be identified as your "prophet" supposedly discerened by means of his alleged divine gift for translating languages he could not even read.

You may begin by showing us that the names used by Joseph Smith AT LEAST existed somewhere in Egyptian lore BEFORE Smith showed up in the early 1800s.

Then you can conclusively demonstrate the “inspiration” of your so-called “prophet” by simply showing us that the names he used are indeed correctly ***ociated with the idols to which he attached them.

If your organization is telling the truth and the BoA REALLY IS a work inspired by the Holy Spirit, then your "prophet" should AT LEAST have gotten the names of these idols right. Can you show us that he AT LEAST got that much correct? If not, why should we think he got ANY of it right?

-BH

.

[BrianH]

AGAIN ... the challenge to Mormons here is this: SHOW US why we should think that 100% of all qualified Egyptologists and scholars from all related fields are all WRONG to identify these figures as “Qebehseneuf”, “Duamutef”, “Hapy” and “Imsety” and correct the entire academy of Egyptologists and archaeologists by showing us (and them) why those deities are REALLY correctly identified as “Elkenah”, “ Libnah”, “Mahmackrah” and “Korash”.

You may begin by showing us that the names used by Joseph Smith AT LEAST existed somewhere in Egyptian lore BEFORE he showed up in the early 1800s and claimed that they did. Then you can conclusively demonstrate the “inspiration” of your so-called “prophet” by simply showing us that the names he used are indeed correctly ***ociated with the idols to which he attached them.

If the Mormon organization is telling the truth, this should not be hard at all. On the other hand if the Mormon organization's "scriptures" are a pack of lies, and even just plain stooopid lies, then there will continue to be no answer to this challenge here or anywhere else.

-BH

.

[BrianH]

So Mormons, who is right here? Is it your so-called "prophet" or the collective, uniform consensus of the entire academy of Egyptologists, archaeologists, historians and linguists who have consistently identified these idols and shown how the mythical "gods" are routinely integrated throughout Egyptian lore, religion and myth?

If you say Smith was right, please show us the evidence that led to that simple, linguistic conclusion. (And please don't try to tell us that we have to have "faith" in Smith or his alleged "translation" to "know" he was right. The circularity of that fatally flawed reasoning is just too silly to refute again).

-BH

.supposedly

[James Banta]

So Mormons, who is right here? Is it your so-called "prophet" or the collective, uniform consensus of the entire academy of Egyptologists, archaeologists, historians and linguists who have consistently identified these idols and shown how the mythical "gods" are routinely integrated throughout Egyptian lore, religion and myth?

If you say Smith was right, please show us the evidence that led to that simple, linguistic conclusion. (And please don't try to tell us that we have to have "faith" in Smith or his alleged "translation" to "know" he was right. The circularity of that fatally flawed reasoning is just too silly to refute again).

-BH

.supposedly


My brother is is clear that the mormons hate to involve themselves in arguments that there is no way to talk their way out of.. The BofA has been shone to be a total fraud.. Even the explanation of the facsimiles is laughed at by scholars.. Smith actually identifies the Goddess Isis as the Pharaoh.. See facsimile Number 3.. Funny yes but still so SAD that so many have put their eternal welfare at stake believing such destructive LIES.. IHS jim

[Radix]

Wow, three weeks and no response on this Brian. Even Richard has not dug up any silly apologetic response. Kerry Shirts is my favorite. His responses are long, frequently the references and quotes make no sense, and I love how this Marine Biologist states Ritner does not get it because he has not read Nibley's (another non-Egyptologist like himself) works.
Here is a Shirts quote " Well, here’s what about this. Robert Rittner is apparently unaware of Hugh Nibley’s ****ysis in Abraham in Egypt."

Please. According to a Marine Biologist, Ritner would be better informed if he just listened and accepted what Nibley had to say. The quoted reference comes from "KERRY SHIRTS ON THE BOOK OF ABRAHAM VIDEO FROM I.R.R."

One has even more fun reading Dan Peterson's "News from Antiquity"

"Ancient texts indicate that the idolatrous gods of Elkenah, Libnah, Mahmackrah, and Korash, described in the book of Abraham (Abr. 1:6, 13, 17; facsimile 1, figs. 5–8), truly were worshipped in the ancient world, despite the fact that the Bible makes no mention of them"

Sadly his reference for this is other Mormon apologists. There is nothing in the real world of academics to back this up, but since Peterson says it, it has to be almost gospel in the minds of some Mormons. Sadly, most Mormons are never going to take the time to check this out. They have their pre-suppositions that Peterson is trustsworthy, and in their minds it would almost be apostasy to actually dig into his references.

Daniel claims the church was the first to point out the translation of the Facsimiles do not correspond to Joseph Smith's. But above, we see that LDS are still trying to prove it true, and will lie through their eye***** to make it appear so.

Everything about all of this is kept so vague, it does not matter which side of the coin LDS land on. They can always feel comfortable in their stance. The real leaders of the LDS church know never to take any kind of stance on this, that is why they have their apologetic teams. NOTHING these apologists says has any real spiritual value to a true Mormon. Their real value is helping the real leaders of the church avoid having to face hard, legitimate questions.

[James Banta]

Still not one word of defense for the BofA from a mormon poster.. This proves to me that what they think they know, what they have been taught about that volume of lies is 100% false based on Joseph Smith alone and not on the teaching of God through Abraham.. IHS jim


Come on dear LDS friends.. If the BofA is a fraud, then so is Smith!!! He is a false prophet, a liar because he told the world he had the power to translate the papyri and interpret the facsimiles. And it turns out that nothing of the BofA is present on the scrolls, that the interpretation of the scrolls is 100% incorrect. That Smith couldn't even tell a king from a goddess.. That is not the power of God working in a man that is the man's pride, ego, and deceitful heart working to retain a place he had lied to achieve in the first place. That of being a prophet of God. This is proof one and for all that Smith was a liar and a con man with no power of God in him at all.. IHS jim

[BrianH]

Yeah, its amazing how Mormons have been reduced to reflexively regurgitating each other's comments and granting themselves and each other automatic unquestioned and final authority on all these things.

They take the time to format their footnotes correctly in order to make their stuff look authentic, and their websites are nicely produced. To the easily duped, I am sure this makes them all look entirely credible. The problem is, their arguments are all based on nothing more than wishful thinking, speculation and empty guesswork.

Over against this, we have the uniform consensus of all qualified Egyptologists, archaeologists, historians and linguists as to the names and iden***ies of these Egyptian deities as well as how they figure into Egyptian mythology and religion. And NOT ONE scholar, Mormon or otherwise has ever once produced a single iota of any kind of evidence to challenge that consensus. Instead, Mormons are told to take the claims of the LDS organization on "faith".

Its as if there was a religion based on an excerpt of the U.S. Declaration of Independence supposedly translated into a story about an invasion of space aliens and the names signed at the bottom identified as members of a mythological Mayan pantheon. Its just plain STOOOOOOPID, and literally NO ONE takes the LDS claims seriously. And in fact, Mormon Egyptologist Stephan Thompson has totally debunked the Book of Abraham.

At least there are a few honest Mormon scholars on earth.

-BH

.

[BrianH]

Still no answers...

-BH

.

[Radix]

I posted this OP over at another place. It has had exactly the number of substantive responses as you have here. This is a skeleton (or mummy) in the closet that LDS do not have the guts to face.

[BrianH]

I posted this OP over at another place. It has had exactly the number of substantive responses as you have here. This is a skeleton (or mummy) in the closet that LDS do not have the guts to face.

Hi Rad.

And the reason WHY there is no substantive response here or there, is because there is no possibility of such a response. The simple fact is, Smith was a lying fraud and no Mormon nor anyone else can change that fact. His overt fraudulence is made overwhelmingly obvious by his complete and total mistranslation of a 1st century Breathing Permit into the silly fantasy of the so-called "Book of Abraham".

That's like someone finding a copy of a Brazilian driver's license that expired in 2001 and "translating" it into a speech by Thomas Jefferson, while claiming to be a prophet of the God of Israel. How ANYONE could fall for such a thing remains a great mystery.

But the entire LDS religion is built on just exactly that level of absurdity.

-BH

.

[Radix]

That's like someone finding a copy of a Brazilian driver's license that expired in 2001 and "translating" it into a speech by Thomas Jefferson, while claiming to be a prophet of the God of Israel. How ANYONE could fall for such a thing remains a great mystery.
.

The mystery is that some people like being gullible. The sad thing is that being gullible is turned into "having faith." And the more blind the faith, the holier you must be. The holier you are, then you get to become a god. When you become a god, you get to forget how gullible you are.

[BrianH]

I think you nailed it, Radix. Mormons in general seem to think that believing fantasies require more "faith" and thus make them more worthy.

Chrsitianity is difficult because it is real. Those who only defend fantasies can just make stuff up while Christians are bound by reality to the God of Truth.

People who authorize themselves to just believe/invnet whatever suits them this week have no need for God at all, because they are happier with their idols.

-BH

.

[HopefulSaint]

Chrsitianity is difficult because it is real.
What about being in your version of Christianity do you find so difficult?
Is it the part where you feel you have to believe in Trinitarianism even though it makes no sense--is that the difficult part?

Or is it obeying Jesus' commandment about how you should treat others--is that the difficult part (***uming the version you follow believes that such a commandment exists)?

If not those, then what parts DO you feel are so difficult?

[jdjhere]

We are more interested in an actual answer to post #1 than you asking more questions, HopefulSaint. Thanks.

[BrianH]

What about being in your version of Christianity do you find so difficult?

Is it the part where you feel you have to believe in Trinitarianism even though it makes no sense--is that the difficult part?

Or is it obeying Jesus' commandment about how you should treat others--is that the difficult part (***uming the version you follow believes that such a commandment exists)?

If not those, then what parts DO you feel are so difficult?

You ignored the rest of what I said. Furthermore, while I appreciate your need to change the subject, I was not talking to you and so I owe you no response to this attempted distraction. I am being nice to even respond.

Now, if you would like to shatter the Mormon mold and try to actually address the topic of this thread for once, I might be willing to see what you have to say. Please show us some reason to think that the entire body of Egyptian literatrue and lore should be re-writen to accommodate the uniqe and as-yet-unfounded claims of your so-called "prophet".

-BH

.

[HopefulSaint]

You made an ***ertion, in this thread, and I was just wondering if you were able to explain why you think the way you do.


Originally Posted by BrianH
Chrsitianity is difficult because it is real.

If you thought you could throw out ***ertions and be immune to having them questioned, then maybe you are in the wrong forum.

[BrianH]

You made an ***ertion, in this thread, and I was just wondering if you were able to explain why you think the way you do.



If you thought you could throw out ***ertions and be immune to having them questioned, then maybe you are in the wrong forum.

If you thought you could isolate a clause from a post not addressed to you and use it to deflect and disrupt the thread, you are on the wrong planet.

In fact, I would have thought that you would have learned a LOOOOONG time ago that these Mormon antics of yours do not work on non-Mormons. The topic of this thread is Smith's rather obvious deception as exhibited in his totally mis-identifying four well-known Egyptian idols.

You yourself know you have no means to even begin to refute the facts that prove your so-called "prophet" was a total fraud. That's why you are forced by your "faith" in him to try to cover up your inability to defend his fraudulent claims.

-BH

.

[tdidymas]

First to address HopefulSaint's question about the statement "Christianity is hard because it is real": actually Jesus is the one who said "with men it is impossible." The reason is that to become holy as God is holy cannot be attained by natural efforts. It takes the power of God with the infilling of the Holy Spirit to become holy (i.e. become a saint). Holiness must be real, it cannot be just a theory or concept, just as eternal punishment is real, and the lake of fire is a very real result of sin. So if you read the Bible enough to become familiar with it, you will see that the statement measures up to its teachings.

In regard to the Book of Abraham, a simple and cursory reading of chapter 1 reveals inconsistencies with truth as portrayed in the Bible and in history and archaeology. For example, Smith is apparently under the presumption that Egypt and Chaldea are one-and-the-same nation, or that Chaldea was being ruled by the Pharaoh at that time. There is apparently no truth in this, since none of the current archaeological or historical findings agree with this idea, in addition to it being contrary to the ***umptions in the scripture concerning the relationship of those nations at that time. Even if we stretch the imagination to presume that a Pharaoh ruled Chaldea at that time, it is ridiculous to suggest that the people of Chaldea would have mourned for an Egyptian priest of an Egyptian god (even if it were Ra or Aton or whatever the name). It seems reasonable that if Smith was going to invent a "Book of Abraham" from Egyptian heiroglyphics, he had to invent some major connection between Egypt and Chaldea.

Many other evidences can be shown that the Book of Abraham is a fabrication. It reads in style like many of the cultic pseudoepigraphal writings, and one of the obvious fabrications is the statement "refer to the commencement..." which means essentially "the drawing is in the appendix." Such format is foreign to ancient m****cripts. It is written in King James style English as a strategy to authenticate it as a "holy writing" to unknowledgeable people.

When the proverbial skirts of Joseph Smith are lifted, Mormons are afraid to look at his nakedness, because it would tell them that all their efforts for salvation up to this point are null and void. One can only hope that God would grant openness of mind and heart to them so that they could repent of their deception from following "The Prophet", and follow the true Shepherd and Guardian of souls, who is explained only in the Holy Bible, and not in the Book of Mormon or the Book of Abraham or any other Mormon writing.

[BrianH]

Well said, TD. Thank you.

-BH

.

[BrianH]

Over a month and 345 hits later and, as usual, we still see not even one ATTEMPT to justify Smith's identification of these Egyptian idols.

So AGAIN, the challenge to Mormons here is this: SHOW US why we should think that 100% of all qualified Egyptologists and scholars from all related fields are all WRONG to identify these figures as “Qebehseneuf”, “Duamutef”, “Hapy” and “Imsety” and correct the entire academy of Egyptologists by showing us (and them) why those deities should be CORRECTLY identified as “Elkenah”, “ Libnah”, “Mahmackrah” and “Korash” .

You Mormon guys may begin by AT LEAST showing us that the names used by Joseph Smith existed somewhere in Egyptian lore BEFORE (or heck, even AFTER) Joseph Smith showed up in the early 1800s and claimed that he had employed his alleged divine gift for translating languages that he could not even read to render God's own translation of this document. Then you can conclusively demonstrate the “inspiration” of your so-called “prophet” by simply showing us that the names he used are indeed correctly ***ociated with the idols to which he attached them.

If you and your "prophets" and your organization are telling the truth, then you should be able to find at least SOME kind of actual confirmation in the m***ive and vast archives of Egyptian religion, lore and language. OTH, if you are propagating falsehoods while only pretending to be speaking the truth on behalf of the father of lies, your continuing silence will be no surprise.

How about it?

-BH

.

[James Banta]

Over a month and 345 hits later and, as usual, we still see not even one ATTEMPT to justify Smith's identification of these Egyptian idols.

So AGAIN, the challenge to Mormons here is this: SHOW US why we should think that 100% of all qualified Egyptologists and scholars from all related fields are all WRONG to identify these figures as “Qebehseneuf”, “Duamutef”, “Hapy” and “Imsety” and correct the entire academy of Egyptologists by showing us (and them) why those deities should be CORRECTLY identified as “Elkenah”, “ Libnah”, “Mahmackrah” and “Korash” .

You Mormon guys may begin by AT LEAST showing us that the names used by Joseph Smith existed somewhere in Egyptian lore BEFORE (or heck, even AFTER) Joseph Smith showed up in the early 1800s and claimed that he had employed his alleged divine gift for translating languages that he could not even read to render God's own translation of this document. Then you can conclusively demonstrate the “inspiration” of your so-called “prophet” by simply showing us that the names he used are indeed correctly ***ociated with the idols to which he attached them.

If you and your "prophets" and your organization are telling the truth, then you should be able to find at least SOME kind of actual confirmation in the m***ive and vast archives of Egyptian religion, lore and language. OTH, if you are propagating falsehoods while only pretending to be speaking the truth on behalf of the father of lies, your continuing silence will be no surprise.

How about it?

-BH

.

Even quilified scholars who are mormon (there are only 2) deny the BofA was translated by Smith. Dr. Stephen E. Thompson stated the following as a responce to a question asked in the Northeast Sunstone Symposium about By His Own Hand Upon Papyrus by Charles M. Larson.


In my opinion, it's the best source to go to if you want to know what's been going on with the Book of Abraham .... Nothing that's been written from an apologetic point of view comes close to it in accuracy.

Please read the full articale on this subject at http://www.irr.org/mit/thompson.html IHS jim

[BrianH]

Even quilified scholars who are mormon (there are only 2) deny the BofA was translated by Smith. Dr. Stephen E. Thompson stated the following as a responce to a question asked in the Northeast Sunstone Symposium about By His Own Hand Upon Papyrus by Charles M. Larson.


In my opinion, it's the best source to go to if you want to know what's been going on with the Book of Abraham .... Nothing that's been written from an apologetic point of view comes close to it in accuracy.

Please read the full articale on this subject at http://www.irr.org/mit/thompson.html IHS jim

Wow. If Richard (HankSaint, etc.) had not pulled his customary disappearing act, it would have been fun to watch him try to get around this one. As it stands, we can fully expect to see all Mormons totally avoid confronting this reality.

The bottom line continues to remain obvious: the Book of Abraham is a hoax, which is conclusive proof that Joseph Smith was a fraud. That unchallenged FACT all by itself shoots the entire religion of Mormonism right in the face with both barrels.

Game over, man.

-BH

.

[James Banta]

Wow. If Richard (HankSaint, etc.) had not pulled his customary disappearing act, it would have been fun to watch him try to get around this one. As it stands, we can fully expect to see all Mormons totally avoid confronting this reality.

The bottom line continues to remain obvious: the Book of Abraham is a hoax, which is conclusive proof that Joseph Smith was a fraud. That unchallenged FACT all by itself shoots the entire religion of Mormonism right in the face with both barrels.

Game over, man.

-BH

.


How can we do it? We have Deuteronomy 18 that tells us that if a prophet speaks in the name of God and what he says is proven false then he is a false prophet and is not to be followed.. But still these hang onto Smith with the devotion that should be held only for God when he is so obviously a fraud..

Lord we need you to prevent the lose of these your creation. You have already died for them, please Lord come to them and convict them of this sin of denying you and turn them to you and away from the myths of men.. IHS jim

[theway]

How can we do it? We have Deuteronomy 18 that tells us that if a prophet speaks in the name of God and what he says is proven false then he is a false prophet and is not to be followed..

Deut. 18 says no such thing.

[teenapenny]

Deut. 18 says no such thing.
What do you think it says?

[tdidymas]

Deut. 18 says no such thing.

Deu. 18:22. It's a paraphrase, but it fits.
TD

[theway]

What do you think it says?First off, there is no such word as "false Prophets" in the OT.
Second, Deut is speaking about Prophets of God, not what you would call "false Prophets" anyway.

[Radix]

Deut. 18 says no such thing.

No matter what any of us have to say about Deut. 18, this thread more than proves that Joseph Smith lied through his eye***** when it came to "translating" anything Egyptian.

Care to say anything and save face for your so called "prophet?"

I posted this thread over at the other place. Nothing with even a hint of a substantive response was ever mentioned by any Mormon. Including Mr. translation man himself Daniel.

[James Banta]

Deut. 18 says no such thing.

The p***age goes much further than that.. It says such a prophet MUST DIE.. I took my commentary of the p***age where is say that should a prophet should not be feared in verse 22.. In the old English that is a word used to not respecting the prophet, Not listening to them or giving them respect.. That IS WHAT the p***age teaches.. You denial is worthless in face of the facts..


Deut 18:20-22
But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die.
And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the LORD hath not spoken?
When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to p***, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.

I have been called a literalist many times.. That is a ***le I gladly admit to.. I believe what God has told us about Himself, about how to become His child, about how we can know those chosen to being His word to us.. Without this test we would have FREE FOR ALL WITH NO IRON ROD to cling to.. Mormonism teaches that the word of God is that rod but still they cling not to it but to what their own hearts tell them.. Flesh lies, God is truth.. Cling to the rod and give up the reliance on what your deceitful heart tells you.. IHS jim

[James Banta]

First off, there is no such word as "false Prophets" in the OT.
Second, Deut is speaking about Prophets of God, not what you would call "false Prophets" anyway.

What on earth is a prophet that speaks in the name of God but lies about the message actually coming from God.. You want a lying prophet to be considered a prophet of God? God doesn't, so He told us if any man ever try to fool the people saying that God sent him with a message, and it turns out that what he told the people was actually a lie he made up. That prophet should die.. The BofA is such a lie.. Proven to be made up by Joseph Smith a prophet who lied to lead the people away from the God of the Bible and replace Him with one Smith made up. A God who was not always God. A God who is not alone the ONLY God that exists. He taught polytheism right in the page4s of the BofA it's self.. In short he taught in the name of other Gods.. I have said it before. Though I condemn the actions of the mobs at Carthage jail, Smith deserved to die according to God's word.. He was in condemnation of Deut 18:20.. That is fact based on what is easily read in the BofA:


And they (the Gods) said: Let there be light
And they (the Gods) comprehended the light
And the Gods called the light Day
And the Gods also said
And the Gods ordered
And on and on what Smith said the gods did.. But the Bible is clear That the Lord our God is one Lord.. Smith clearly taught in the names of other gods..
I don't see how you can not see the condenation against Smith in Deut 18... IHS jim

[theway]

What on earth is a prophet that speaks in the name of God but lies about the message actually coming from God.. You want a lying prophet to be considered a prophet of God? God doesn't, so He told us if any man ever try to fool the people saying that God sent him with a message, and it turns out that what he told the people was actually a lie he made up. That prophet should die.. James you really need to read the scriptures first before you comment on them. The verses you cut and paste from antiMormon sites do not qualify as having read the scriptures. Had you of actually read the verses that precede the ones you posted you would see that God was speaking about a Prophet chosen by God.

18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.
19 And it shall come to p***, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.
20 But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die.

Like I said, this is speaking of a Prophet chosen by God, there was no such thing as a false prophet. if they tell lies then they can may be a lier or fallen Prophet. The punishment of death was given to those that lead the population to follow other Gods; not for lying.

[James Banta]

James you really need to read the scriptures first before you comment on them. The verses you cut and paste from antiMormon sites do not qualify as having read the scriptures. Had you of actually read the verses that precede the ones you posted you would see that God was speaking about a Prophet chosen by God.

18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.
19 And it shall come to p***, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, oI will require it of him.
20 But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die.

Like I said, this is speaking of a Prophet chosen by God, there was no such thing as a false prophet. if they tell lies then they can may be a lier or fallen Prophet. The punishment of death was given to those that lead the population to follow other Gods; not for lying.


STOP trying to force this p***age to say things it doesn't say.. Yes the whole chapter is about prophets. Men that God would bring to the people to give them His word.. The p***age I quoted is the way to identify the true prophets God sends us from the liars that seek the honors of men by being God's spokesman.. Smith failed that test again and again.. You must read the whole chapter yourself and then take to heart the test God gave us so we can identify a lying man from a prophet of God.. Without being able to identify who is a real prophet from who is the liar we could be lead to follow men like Jim Jones or David Koresh.. This simple text in Deut 18:20-22 is a great gift from God.. Why do you refuse to use it? IHS jim

[John T]

Deut. 18 says no such thing.

if you actually READ the Bible before your keyboard ejaculated a wrong response, you would not have your breath smelling like athlete's feet.


Deuteronomy 18:20 But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die.

21 And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the LORD hath not spoken?

22 When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to p***, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.
It is also called being BUSTED!

[Radix]

I figured theway would avoid an answer here. Of course, so has every other Mormon out there.

[theway]

if you actually READ the Bible before your keyboard ejaculated a wrong response, you would not have your breath smelling like athlete's feet.


Deuteronomy 18:20 But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die.

21 And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the LORD hath not spoken?

22 When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to p***, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.
It is also called being BUSTED!Sorry John, as usual you have not been following along. James claimed this is how to identify a false Prophet from a real one. I pointed out that there was no such thing in the OT as a false Prophet. There were either Prophets of God or Prophets of Baal or of some other idol. Within the Prophets of God there were those that followed God's teachings and those that used their position to get gain. In order for Joseph Smith to even qualify for your test you would have had to have considered him a Prophet of God first, who has become a fallen Prophet. I don't think you want to do that, do you?

I also notice you left out verses 18 and 19, why was that?
That shoe you're smelling, is your own.

[theway]

STOP trying to force this p***age to say things it doesn't say.. Yes the whole chapter is about prophets. Men that God would bring to the people to give them His word.. The p***age I quoted is the way to identify the true prophets God sends us from the liars that seek the honors of men by being God's spokesman.. Smith failed that test again and again.. You must read the whole chapter yourself and then take to heart the test God gave us so we can identify a lying man from a prophet of God..
Once again, it is you who have forced your own view into the p***age. Notice you said "a lying man" the scripture never say "lying MAN" no matter what the "Prophet" has done, even if he did something worthy of death, he is still known as a Prophet.


Without being able to identify who is a real prophet from who is the liar we could be lead to follow men like Jim Jones or David Koresh.. This simple text in Deut 18:20-22 is a great gift from God.. Why do you refuse to use it? IHS jim You mean why don't I go out and kill all the people who try to get me to follow strange Gods, is that what you want me to do? You seem to believe in this test, this gift of God as you called it, yet you have trampled it underfoot by not obeying what God has told you to do. I certainly don't want you to go out killing people, but ask yourself, if you believed this p***age still applied today, why do you treat it as nothing?
Maybe it's because you understand that it no longer applies since Christ has come, it is the Holy Ghost which gives us the truth of all things.

[James Banta]

[theway;93787]Once again, it is you who have forced your own view into the p***age. Notice you said "a lying man" the scripture never say "lying MAN" no matter what the "Prophet" has done, even if he did something worthy of death, he is still known as a Prophet.

I did use a paraphrase but what else to you call a man that says God spoke to Him or gave him a message when the truth is that God did no such thing? That man is of course a liar and his words have no truth in them. He is a lying man a false teacher, a FALSE PROPHET..


You mean why don't I go out and kill all the people who try to get me to follow strange Gods, is that what you want me to do? You seem to believe in this test, this gift of God as you called it, yet you have trampled it underfoot by not obeying what God has told you to do. I certainly don't want you to go out killing people, but ask yourself, if you believed this p***age still applied today, why do you treat it as nothing?
Maybe it's because you understand that it no longer applies since Christ has come, it is the Holy Ghost which gives us the truth of all things.

I don't do so because this is not a theocracy. We have civil laws that Jesus (by example) taught us to live by.. I thought you would know that.. Does that change the facts that this is a viable test for the teachings and prophecies of a man that tells us that God is speaking to us through him? If not why were you with Jim Jones? Why were you following David Koresh. Both men said they were God's appointed leaders, His prophets. Yet you judged them as unworthy of that calling, why? Could it be because you could see that there was no truth in them? You used this test on them whether or not you understood it. Why is it you refuse to do the same with Joseph Smith.. I don't need to tell you that he was a false prophet and God never spoke to him. You can see that yourself if you examine his message.. He spoke in the name of other Gods.. Not the One God the Bible teaches but he spoke in the name of Gods.. He taught a God that wasn't always a God when the Bible make it clear that He is always God.. To say that Smith taught in the name of other is incontestable. To show that he gave false prophecy is also clear since the BofA is part of his prophetic message and it has been shown to be a pagan text that had nothing to do with Abraham.. Smith fails this test both ways, false teaching and false gods.. Yet you still revere him as a prophet of God instead of seeing him as the liar he was.. IHS jim

[neverending]

James you really need to read the scriptures first before you comment on them. The verses you cut and paste from antiMormon sites do not qualify as having read the scriptures. Had you of actually read the verses that precede the ones you posted you would see that God was speaking about a Prophet chosen by God.

18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.
19 And it shall come to p***, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.
20 But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die.

Like I said, this is speaking of a Prophet chosen by God, there was no such thing as a false prophet. if they tell lies then they can may be a lier or fallen Prophet. The punishment of death was given to those that lead the population to follow other Gods; not for lying.


Excuse me, so now the Mormons and you personally think that quoting a verse straight from the Holy Bible is from, "antiMormon sites?" No wonder you and all the members of your church have problems. And if a man, who was chosen by God to speak for him but chooses to speak things NOT from God, does that not make him a "false prophet" AND a liar? IF said prophet ends up leading people to follow after other gods, (small "g") than of course no one could claim that man to be a TRUE prophet of God.

[neverending]

Sorry John, as usual you have not been following along. James claimed this is how to identify a false Prophet from a real one. I pointed out that there was no such thing in the OT as a false Prophet. There were either Prophets of God or Prophets of Baal or of some other idol. Within the Prophets of God there were those that followed God's teachings and those that used their position to get gain. In order for Joseph Smith to even qualify for your test you would have had to have considered him a Prophet of God first, who has become a fallen Prophet. I don't think you want to do that, do you?

I also notice you left out verses 18 and 19, why was that?
That shoe you're smelling, is your own.

I am so amazed at how you can not see the difference between a "true" prophet and one that is false! Prophets of Baal WERE false prophets because Baal was a FALSE god! Notice, small "g" again? JS proclaimed things that have caused millions to believe in a "false god". What is so hard to understand? Your comment was rude AND not necessary!

[BrianH]

Sorry John, as usual you have not been following along. James claimed this is how to identify a false Prophet from a real one. I pointed out that there was no such thing in the OT as a false Prophet. There were either Prophets of God or Prophets of Baal or of some other idol.


Aside from being totally off topic, this is a self-contradictory statement ...unless of course you "think" that Baal is a real God, which would not surprise me at all since as a Mormon you are a polytheist.

Meanwhile, I will remind you and everyone else here that this thread is about Smith's identification of the VERY common Egyptian deities (idols) as " Elkenah, Libnah, Mahmackrah and Korash".

The challenge you are so obviously avoiding here is the challenge to substantiate this supposed divine "revelation" as claimed by your so-called "prophet". Please show us a reason to think that his alleged revelation of the iden***ies of the names of these idols was actually CORRECT.

For my part I am prepared to show you that this claim is totally and completely false based on the actual FACTS of Egyptian myth and lore, and that these Egyptian deities (idols - the product of men's imaginations), were NOT "Elkenah, Libnah, Mahmackrah and Korash" as Smith claimed and thus his so-called "revelation" in your "scriptures" was nothing but a HOAX.

-BH

.

[Radix]

theway is not capable of staying on topic here Brain. Use of any two functioning common sense neurons would give him reason to actually leave Mormonism, thus he will never deal with this.

Amazing how much abuse one will allow because he/she has no chance of ever standing up for their so called prophet.

[John T]

Sorry John, as usual you have not been following along. James claimed this is how to identify a false Prophet from a real one. I pointed out that there was no such thing in the OT as a false Prophet.

Begging the question, a fallacious argument


There were either Prophets of God or Prophets of Baal or of some other idol. By definition the former is true, and the latter is false. Thereby you skewer your false premise in your faulty argumentation.



Within the Prophets of God there were those that followed God's teachings and those that used their position to get gain.Even if the prophet profited from his prophecy, why would that cast doube to the fact that he was a true prophet?

Scriptures are explicit in the remuneration for the Levitical priesthood. Therefore you have another false premise here.


In order for Joseph Smith to even qualify for your test you would have had to have considered him a Prophet of God first, who has become a fallen Prophet. I don't think you want to do that, do you?NOT SO

In order for you Mormons to establish that Smith was a prophet, you have to point to a Biblical example where a pedophile, a serial adulterer and a con man and swindler ever became a true prophet of God.


I also notice you left out verses 18 and 19, why was that?
That shoe you're smelling, is your own.No reason. Why don't you post them as they are so important to you?

[John T]

Aside from being totally off topic...

Meanwhile, I will remind you and everyone else here that this thread is about Smith's identification of the VERY common Egyptian deities (idols) as " Elkenah, Libnah, Mahmackrah and Korash".

<snip>

For my part I am prepared to show you that this claim is totally and completely false based on the actual FACTS of Egyptian myth and lore, and that these Egyptian deities (idols - the product of men's imaginations), were NOT "Elkenah, Libnah, Mahmackrah and Korash" as Smith claimed and thus his so-called "revelation" in your "scriptures" was nothing but a HOAX.

-BH

PERHAPS if you asked Jill to remind him that you have asked TW to stay on topic about three times, she could remind him how rude he is being and otherwise acting as an obstructionist, contributing nothing positive to the thread.

[theway]

PERHAPS if you asked Jill to remind him that you have asked TW to stay on topic about three times, she could remind him how rude he is being and otherwise acting as an obstructionist, contributing nothing positive to the thread.Careful…seeing as though I’m the only Mormon that has posted here in the last week, and discussions between Mormons and non-Mormons represent 98% to 99% of the activity on this forum and this web site, if I was banned you guys would only have each other to talk to, and we all know how that turned out the last time. This site would be down inside of a month.

[James Banta]

Careful…seeing as though I’m the only Mormon that has posted here in the last week, and discussions between Mormons and non-Mormons represent 98% to 99% of the activity on this forum and this web site, if I was banned you guys would only have each other to talk to, and we all know how that turned out the last time. This site would be down inside of a month.



I see you think a bit too much of yourself.. No there wouldn't be near the error to correct but would would till be here.. You are NOT the all in all of this site.. Stop posting and see that we would continue.. You are not necessary to our faith nor whether we share our knowledge about mormonism. There is always something to share here.. Your missionaries are everywhere and we need to keep up with the new nonsense they teach.. It can be hard to keep up with the changes in the unchangeable gospel of mormonism. We have each other to reveal all the new anti-biblical teaching that Salt Lake comes up with.. Conference is just around the corner.. IHS jim

[neverending]

Careful…seeing as though I’m the only Mormon that has posted here in the last week, and discussions between Mormons and non-Mormons represent 98% to 99% of the activity on this forum and this web site, if I was banned you guys would only have each other to talk to, and we all know how that turned out the last time. This site would be down inside of a month.


How funny that we are all still here and where are your fellow Mormons? Flown the coop it seems. As a Christian it is most evident that there is no one among you who will defend your faith at all. Why is that theway? Is it because there IS no way to defend against the truth? And besides, we know the ONLY reason you come here is to be entertained. I would think you could find much more things to entertain yourself besides here, since YOU are NOT interested in learning. Such a pity that one would turn their back on learning of Jesus Christ, (the true Christ) not this made up version, the Garden Knome version that JS called Christ. My Jesus was ALWAYS GOD, never was nor is the brother of Satan, for Satan WAS created, was only an angel.....that's a far cry from being God don't you think? And we know why Satan was cast out of heaven don't we? Because he wanted to be like God and bragged how he was going to make himself like the most high God. It is called, "the great I wills"....


SATAN'S FIVE "I WILLS" (ISAIAH 14:12-15)
1. Satan's five I wills:
A. "I will ascend into Heaven."
B. "I will exalt my throne above the stars of God." "I will rule angels." *** 38:7, Jude 13,
Rev. 12:3, 4.
C. "I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation in the sides of the north." This is
Earth as a place. Psalm 48:2 "I will rule mankind."
D. "I will ascend above the heights of the clouds." "I'll be supreme." He wills to displace God as the Sovereign of the universe.
E. "I will be like the Most High." I'll be like God. This is power lust.

Can you see now what happens when even an angel living with God thinks he can be like God, and do what God does? Again, will you answer my question as to where one can find your churches idea that God was once a man and attained his position as God and that you too can become one? There is no scripture to defend such an idea but because of one man, Lorenzo Snow who made a comment, it was grabbed onto and made doctrine. Do you see the same happening here with that idea? To put yourself in the same position as our God is SIN! Oh, and one more thing, if this progression has been occurring for eternity, who does our God worship, for it only makes sense that he too would have a God above him? Thanks, hope this was entertaining enough for you.

[BrianH]

Careful…seeing as though I’m the only Mormon that has posted here in the last week, and discussions between Mormons and non-Mormons represent 98% to 99% of the activity on this forum and this web site, if I was banned you guys would only have each other to talk to, and we all know how that turned out the last time. This site would be down inside of a month.

I am pretty sure that if you actually read his post you will see that he was not in any way advocating for you to be banned. All he said was that he wanted you to be reminded to GET ON TOPIC, for once.

The LAST thing I want is for you to be banned. My whole purpose here is to get YOU to demonstrate that you absolutely cannot, under any possible circumstances in any way EVER address this topic in such a way as to provide actual support for the claims of your organization about this so-called "Book of Abraham".

Your continuing deflections and slippery evasions only prove my point with every single one of your posts.

Thank you for that.

-BH

.

[jdjhere]

TheWay does NOT even attempt an answer at post #1 but DOES try to disrrupt it by attacking something else said and trying to change the subject. So, we KNOW TheWay is here but unable to answer post #1. So, my final request before I totally ignore TheWay is please answer post #1 by BrianH.

PS- and I agree with the fact that you are "full of yourself" as anyone would be who strives to be a god. Arrogance rears its ugly, deceitful head... "I will be like the Most High..." and may the Lord deal with it accordingly.

[theway]

TheWay does NOT even attempt an answer at post #1 but DOES try to disrrupt it by attacking something else said and trying to change the subject. So, we KNOW TheWay is here but unable to answer post #1. So, my final request before I totally ignore TheWay is please answer post #1 by BrianH.

PS- and I agree with the fact that you are "full of yourself" as anyone would be who strives to be a god. Arrogance rears its ugly, deceitful head... "I will be like the Most High..." and may the Lord deal with it accordingly.Quit trying to change the topic by making it all about me!:D

I do not start threads, so make a better thread (less boring) and I will respond.

[jdjhere]

Enlighten us then. Answer post #1. Teach us all something since this is so "boring" to you. (Could it just be that you cannot answer it??)

[jdjhere]

BrianH posted this 50+ days ago and still no answers. Ok TheWay... it is time for you to shine. Go....

[neverending]

Quit trying to change the topic by making it all about me!:D

I do not start threads, so make a better thread (less boring) and I will respond.

If you find this forum and this thread boring, then why do you keep posting? As I said earlier and I wonder if you even read it, I am sure you could find something to entertain yourself besides coming here. Now, stop evading pertinent questions, or not but if you chose not; then it only proves once again that there is no defense against truth.

[BrianH]

I do not start threads, so make a better thread (less boring) and I will respond.

Cl***ic Mormon cop-out: arrogant, evasive, complaining ...yet ultimately it is totally empty of any substance whatsoever. It is conclusive proof that there is no defense for the lies upon which Mormonism is founded. But...

This is what happens to the minds of people who turn into Mormons.

-BH

.

[Radix]

Quit trying to change the topic by making it all about me!:D

I do not start threads, so make a better thread (less boring) and I will respond.

If you cannot address the topic of this thread, then away with you (from this thread, happy to interact when you actually try to do so.) A last holdout who contributes nothing is not any different than the silence of all Mormons put together. No need to be "extra nice" to you.

[John T]

Careful…seeing as though I’m the only Mormon that has posted here in the last week, and discussions between Mormons and non-Mormons represent 98% to 99% of the activity on this forum and this web site, if I was banned you guys would only have each other to talk to, and we all know how that turned out the last time. This site would be down inside of a month.

Get over yourself!

You are not really that important in the scheme of things here. With or without you God's work of evangelizing LDS and the wavering, and exposing the many many, too many false things of Mormonism will continue unabated.

[neverending]

Well said John T! Thank you.

[Jill]

Careful…seeing as though I’m the only Mormon that has posted here in the last week, and discussions between Mormons and non-Mormons represent 98% to 99% of the activity on this forum and this web site, if I was banned you guys would only have each other to talk to, and we all know how that turned out the last time. This site would be down inside of a month.

TW--this board was never down (if that's what you mean) and frankly, we do not worry about that at all. The WM Board is for anyone who would like to discuss things respectfully, and since 95% of the Mormons who posted here were not respectful and did not wish to discuss theology--only pester those who did--it is no great loss that they've decided to go elsewhere.

As to the board being quiet at the present time, I have no problem with that and actually hope that we can focus on quality instead of quan***y. We're not out to win any popularity contests, only to get to know each other better.

[Snow Patrol]

The WM Board is for anyone who would like to discuss things respectfully, and since 95% of the Mormons who posted here were not respectful and did not wish to discuss theology--only pester those who did--it is no great loss that they've decided to go elsewhere.


Is 95% an actual number that you've calculated or is it more a figure of speech/generalization?

I would guess the number of LDS that I've seen over the years has totalled around 20 different people. That would mean 19 of those people were not respectful and did not wish to discuss theology. Is that you actual experience with LDS members?

[BrianH]

Since you are here, would you please provide us with a defense of the claims of your organization about its "scriptures" supposedly being translated correctly. Specifically, can you show us some reasons to think that Smith identified these named Egyptian idol/gods correctly?

-BH

.

[BrianH]

I asked Mr. Patrol if he could please provide a defense for the claims of his organization pertaining to the supposed truth of their "scriptures" and their miraculous translation - specifically if he could show that his "prophet" managed to at least name these four well-known Egyptian idols correctly.

As is so consistent with Mormon behavior ...Mr. Patrol fled.

Obviously there is no reason to think that Joe Smith translated the so-called "Book of Abraham" correctly, and he knows it. But as is also consistent with Mormon behavior, he will still go on "belieeeeeving" that his leaders are telling the TRUTH.

This is what being deceived is.

Mormonism is a lie.

-BH

.

[neverending]

Brian,
I've asked theway 4 times the same question but as usual, there's no answer. So, guess since no Mormon is willing to answer important questions, we are left to continue to hold onto our faith and knowledge that Mormonism is false. No matter how much we present problems with Mormonism, a member won't be affected by it without us praying and the Holy Spirit working in their heart and mind.
As a former member of that cult, I do understand that many remain only because of family and knowing how they would be rejected and possibly lose the love of that family. It happened to me and it caused me to become depressed. Every day I would get a phone call from my mother who gave me the third degree for having left Mormonusm but finally, as I was reading my scriptures one day, I came upon this verse: Matthew 10:37. Oh the joy that then entered my heart and I realized that the Holy Spirit had brought me to that verse which I needed. That verse made it known to my mind and heart that my decision to chose Christ was right.
It has now been over 30 years since I came out of Mormonism; both my parents have p***ed on but even though, they never chose Christ, God chose me, I can't thank him enough for wanting me to be a part of HIS family, HIS eternal family.

[jdjhere]

Post #52... BrianH posted this 50+ days ago and still no answers. Ok TheWay... it is time for you to shine. Go....

TheWay did not respond either. It's amazing that I give TheWay the floor and... nothing. You are correct BrianH in that if LDS really had answers they would post them here for all the world to see. If I were LDS I could think of nothing more effective that I could do than to answer questions with solid answers and then lead potential "converts" to this website. Their own "prophets"and "scriptures" only hurt their case and prove their "teachings" are the very an***hesis of Gods Word. 2Corinthians 11:3-4 "But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtlety, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him." We are warned in Galatians 1:8 "But even if we or an angel from heaven (moroni)should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! LDS, turn to the REAL Jesus and He WILL save you. He promised He would so trust Him. Revelation 3:20 "Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, ( of your heart- YOUR resposibility) I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me."

[jdjhere]

That is an awesome testimony by the way Neverending. Praise God! :)

[jdjhere]

Matthew 10:37 "He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me." (Jesus Christ)

[Snow Patrol]

.....No matter how much we present problems with Mormonism, a member won't be affected by it without us praying and the Holy Spirit working in their heart and mind.
As a former member of that cult, I do understand that many remain only because of family and knowing how they would be rejected and possibly lose the love of that family. It happened to me and it caused me to become depressed. Every day I would get a phone call from my mother who gave me the third degree for having left Mormonusm but finally, as I was reading my scriptures one day, I came upon this verse: Matthew 10:37. Oh the joy that then entered my heart and I realized that the Holy Spirit had brought me to that verse which I needed. That verse made it known to my mind and heart that my decision to chose Christ was right.
It has now been over 30 years since I came out of Mormonism; both my parents have p***ed on but even though, they never chose Christ, God chose me, I can't thank him enough for wanting me to be a part of HIS family, HIS eternal family.


Neverending, I ask this with all sincerity and sensitivity. You said that you can't thank God enough for choosing you and for wanting you to be a part of His family. You also said that you feel you need to pray and have the Holy Spirit work on LDS members to release them from the bounds of Mormonism. My question is...have you ever wondered why God didn't work on your parents enough to have to them be saved as well? It is a concept that I trying to understand better. Maybe you are not in the Calvanism crowd and so you may feel that man has a little more saying in whether they are saved or not, I don't know. So I'm asking you so that I might better understand your theological beliefs.

[James Banta]

Neverending, I ask this with all sincerity and sensitivity. You said that you can't thank God enough for choosing you and for wanting you to be a part of His family. You also said that you feel you need to pray and have the Holy Spirit work on LDS members to release them from the bounds of Mormonism. My question is...have you ever wondered why God didn't work on your parents enough to have to them be saved as well? It is a concept that I trying to understand better. Maybe you are not in the Calvanism crowd and so you may feel that man has a little more saying in whether they are saved or not, I don't know. So I'm asking you so that I might better understand your theological beliefs.

You have just touched a nerve to both Valerie and myself.. For those we love to p*** into eternity without Christ is a terrible thing.. Still God would never force anyone to love Him and accept His gift He died to give to them. Does He know who will do so, YES! Even before they were born God knew what they would do. If they would accept His gift of life or turn away from Him to gods of their own devices and imagination.. I witnessed again and again to Valerie's parents. All I got from them was the stone wall of "I know Mormonism it's true because of my testimony".. Never mind that they had no Biblical authority for one single point of unique mormon doctrine that resides only in the wild teachings of Joseph Smith..and soon, my mother-in-law would walk out of the room, refusing to even listen.

At least Valerie's dad tried to biblically defend his mormon beliefs.. I guess you and the other regular LDS posters here, have seen the truth so much you ignore it.. When I showed Valerie's dad how the BofM was changed over 3,000 times he was upset and denied that it was ever changed.. You admit it but say that it's ok because Smith fixed it later.. Never mind that Smith said it was translated by the spirit and power of God and all the words used were God's and not his.

Valerie's father agreed with the doctrine that Smith was not involved in the translation process, but because of his testimony he couldn't deal with the BofM needing changing.. I can't believe that you can just set aside that God gave the wording to the BofM (1830) that made God sound like he was a hillbilly, and that Smith after the translation was completed, had the authority to just willy-nilly make changes in what God had given to him.. Valerie's dad was honestly uneducated. He denied that I was being truthful about the problems with mormonism and lived solely by his testimony anything that challenged it was of the devil, even if it was the history of his own church as shown by the sesquicentennial of the BofM printed by the LDS church.. I never showed him any of the Tanner's research. He called that printing a lie, he got mad then and many times thereafter.. It got so bad that my NIV Bible disappeared after one of his visits.. Never did find it.. Some people like you just ignore the problem like they don't matter. Others like Valerie's dad get angry like I am making all the problems with mormonism up as part of my own imagination.. Now because the anniversary of her dad's death is upon us. I would ask you to leave this alone.. IHS jim

[Billyray]

I guess you and the other regular LDS posters here, have seen the truth so much you ignore it..
Jim why do you think that some LDS can't see what seems obvious to Christians?

[neverending]

Neverending, I ask this with all sincerity and sensitivity. You said that you can't thank God enough for choosing you and for wanting you to be a part of His family. You also said that you feel you need to pray and have the Holy Spirit work on LDS members to release them from the bounds of Mormonism. My question is...have you ever wondered why God didn't work on your parents enough to have to them be saved as well? It is a concept that I trying to understand better. Maybe you are not in the Calvanism crowd and so you may feel that man has a little more saying in whether they are saved or not, I don't know. So I'm asking you so that I might better understand your theological beliefs.

Snow,
All I can tell you about my parents was that they were stubborn, refusing to accept the truths that were presented to them. My father was a very proud man, which in and of itself is sin but he would NEVER ever say he could have been wrong about anything, no matter how evident it might have been. Do you not think I didn' pray for my parents to understand the things James and I were trying to tell them? I would be on my knees sobbing sometimes not even being able to speak for I wanted so badly for my parents to be saved but it was not to be but that was only due to them not wanting to be saved; after all, they already believed they had the truth.

I do believe that there are people that God knew or pre-destined to accept him. I believe too that ALL men have the freedom to either accept His grace or not. God doesn't want a bunch of robots running around, he wants people to come willingly to him. You have a choice, to either remain in a religion that is full of falsehoods, teaches unbiblical doctrines that can't be defended by any scripture in the Bible or accept the true God and Jesus Christ who have been taught for millenia from the pulpits of Christian churches. When you decide what is important to you and your eternal destiny, maybe then you can see without the scales covering your eyes, the truths. God's hand is reaching out to you with his gift of salvation, but it requires a BIG leap of faith on your part and wanting that gift.

What I can't understand is why someone wouldn't want God's gift. Why don't you want it, Snow, its free and the gift lasts forever!

[Radix]

Neverending, I ask this with all sincerity and sensitivity. You said that you can't thank God enough for choosing you and for wanting you to be a part of His family. You also said that you feel you need to pray and have the Holy Spirit work on LDS members to release them from the bounds of Mormonism. My question is...have you ever wondered why God didn't work on your parents enough to have to them be saved as well? It is a concept that I trying to understand better. Maybe you are not in the Calvanism crowd and so you may feel that man has a little more saying in whether they are saved or not, I don't know. So I'm asking you so that I might better understand your theological beliefs.

Snow Patrol. Why does your theological beliefs not allow you to deal with the opening post of this thread? Just trying to understand.

[theway]

I've asked theway 4 times the same question but as usual, there's no answer. No, you’ve asked multiple questions which are also multipart questions, however I don’t answer shotgun questions, that’s because most critics will then claim nothing was answered if I left out just one part of their post. Just ask one at a time and I will be happy to answer.


So, guess since no Mormon is willing to answer important questions, we are left to continue to hold onto our faith and knowledge that Mormonism is false. Oh really, are you’re saying that had I answered whatever it was that you asked of me, that you might of given up your faith to follow the truth of Mormonism? however alas, since I did not, I it is my fault you are left to wander the earth with incorrect beliefs?
Neverending, if you go back you will find that one of my first posts to new forums is always to tell posters that I can not be shamed or made to feel guilty, so don’t try.
Therefore you might as well unbait that hook.




No matter how much we present problems with Mormonism, a member won't be affected by it without us praying and the Holy Spirit working in their heart and mind. Well, it hasn’t work for me, critics and ministers have been praying and prophesying for 30 years that I will accept their various versions of the gospel, and yet I’m still LDS. The Holy Ghost has opened up my mind and heart, but He has only showed me that the gospel as it exists in the LDS Church is the Lord’s gospel. Well that’s from my point of view anyway, from yours it’s because the Holy Ghost was really Satan. In any case, one of the reasons your “ministry” is not working on the LDS by showing them the “problems” within the Church, is because what ever problems there are in the LDS Church, that problem is amplified a hundred fold within the Christian body.



As a former member of that cult, I do understand that many remain only because of family and knowing how they would be rejected and possibly lose the love of that family. It happened to me and it caused me to become depressed.
As is true with almost anybody changing from the religion that is the family religion. By the same token, this could also play into your leaving the Church if your husband left first. However just because this happened to you does not mean you can project that onto the rest of the Church members. For instance, the rest of my wife’s family is not Mormon, and one is even a part time Minister/Preacher, it would be a lot less stressful on our family if we were not members, my mother also stop telling me how to dress when I was 18, as she realized she has no more control over the choices I make anymore.



Every day I would get a phone call from my mother who gave me the third degree for having left Mormonusm but finally, as I was reading my scriptures one day, I came upon this verse: Matthew 10:37. Oh the joy that then entered my heart and I realized that the Holy Spirit had brought me to that verse which I needed. That verse made it known to my mind and heart that my decision to chose Christ was right. Like I said, I had this revelation when I was 18, and I’m still an LDS. How do you know the Holy Ghost was not talking about your husband?




It has now been over 30 years since I came out of Mormonism; both my parents have p***ed on but even though, they never chose Christ, God chose me, I can't thank him enough for wanting me to be a part of HIS family, HIS eternal family.
Yes that sounds eerily familiar;
Alma 31:15 Holy, holy God; we believe that thou art God, and we believe that thou art holy, and that thou wast a spirit, and that thou art a spirit, and that thou wilt be a spirit forever.
16 Holy God, we believe that thou hast separated us from our brethren; and we do not believe in the tradition of our brethren, which was handed down to them by the childishness of their fathers; but we believe that thou hast elected us to be thy holy children…


One man’s terrorist is another man’s freedom fighter, it’s all in your point of view.

[James Banta]

We have shown you many times that Mormonism teaches many Gods.. Calling the Father a god, Jesus a god, and the Holy Spirit yet another God.. Smith confirmed that was his doctrine of the nature of God.. He even said it "We have three gods". That is a center piece of mormonism.. That and the idea that God was not always God but became some by obedience to laws and ordinances.. That is NOT the God of the Bible.. You have never outside the wild, hair on fire, rants of Joseph Smith shown that there are more true and living Gods than the ONE GOD the Bible teaches.. Remember the whole of the Bible must be true. To make the Father God, Jesus God, and the Holy Spirit God and hold that there in but one God you must believe the Trinity.. Other wise you are nothing more than Smith a pagan polytheist.. The only question I would ask is how can the three persons that are called God be three separate Gods and keep the Bible true? Over the time I have been on WM I have asked that same questions many times and it has ALWAYS been answered with silence.. It's on;y one question.. You just said you would answer them if they came one at a time so answer it.. I think I know what you will say.. I will send one of my friends the answer I except from you and will will see if I am correct about your side stepping of the question.. IHS jim

[neverending]

TW: was I accusing you of anything other than not responding to my posts? NOPE....so guess you're feeling like the guilty party here; sorry :(
As for the rest of your post it is meaningless to me, since I do not believe in your BoM. And it is nothing more then the Zoramites, which is nothing more than a retelling of what Christ pointed out about the Pharisee and the Publican. I fully understand that I can do nothing without Christ in my life, for he directs my paths. I don't need a man to tell me for man can be evil and we all know that power corrupts and absolute power corrupts, absolutely! It is so evident in the life of JS as he got more power, his mind became more corrupt and he thought he was above the law. Sorry, but I do not care to follow such a man and if you want to remain stubborn and not be in tune with God, then you will stay in your sins and stand before God to be judged. I believe ONLY in God and what He taught us, not a corruptible man. Have the rest of a good day now dear, Richard :)

[jdjhere]

OK SnowPatrol and TheWay.. back to the reason for this- Post #1

So the challenge to Mormons here is this: SHOW US why we should think that 100% of all qualified Egyptologists and scholars from all related fields are all WRONG to identify these figures as “Qebehseneuf”, “Duamutef”, “Hapy” and “Imsety” and correct the entire academy of Egyptologists by showing us (and them) why those deities are REALLY to be identified as “Elkenah”, “ Libnah”, “Mahmackrah” and “Korash” .

You may begin by showing us that the names used by Joseph Smith AT LEAST existed somewhere in Egyptian lore BEFORE he showed up in the early 1800s and claimed that they did. Then you can conclusively demonstrate the “inspiration” of your so-called “prophet” by simply showing us that the names he used are indeed correctly ***ociated with the idols to which he attached them.

And please ...don’t try to change the subject by making ME (or anyone or anything else) the issue here. Such behaviors will be quickly identified and exposed.

Thank you

-BH

Your time to shine...both of you..go!

[theway]

TW: was I accusing you of anything other than not responding to my posts? NOPE....so guess you're feeling like the guilty party here; sorry :(
As for the rest of your post it is meaningless to me, since I do not believe in your BoM. And it is nothing more then the Zoramites, which is nothing more than a retelling of what Christ pointed out about the Pharisee and the Publican. I fully understand that I can do nothing without Christ in my life, for he directs my paths. I don't need a man to tell me for man can be evil and we all know that power corrupts and absolute power corrupts, absolutely! It is so evident in the life of JS as he got more power, his mind became more corrupt and he thought he was above the law. Sorry, but I do not care to follow such a man and if you want to remain stubborn and not be in tune with God, then you will stay in your sins and stand before God to be judged. I believe ONLY in God and what He taught us, not a corruptible man. Have the rest of a good day now dear, Richard :)Such irony... you would not join a Church based on the actions of a man, but you want me to give up the Lord's Church based on the actions of a man. Got to love the reasoning here.
BTW.. once again... you can not shame me or make me feel guilty, the only one who has had success in that area outside of God, is my wife.

[BrianH]

Such irony... you would not join a Church based on the actions of a man, but you want me to give up the Lord's Church based on the actions of a man. Got to love the reasoning here.
BTW.. once again... you can not shame me or make me feel guilty, the only one who has had success in that area outside of God, is my wife.

Yeah ...whatever. But since you are obviously still here participating in this thread, I was wondering, Mr. Way ...would you please do your best to actually try to focus and try to SHOW US why we should think that 100% of all qualified Egyptologists and scholars from all related fields are all WRONG to identify these Egyptian idols as “Qebehseneuf”, “Duamutef”, “Hapy” and “Imsety” and to thereby correct the entire academies of all Egyptologists, archaeologists, historians, anthropologists, religious studies scholars, etc. by showing us (and all of them) WHY those deities are REALLY to be properly identified as “Elkenah”, “ Libnah”, “Mahmackrah” and “Korash”?

After all, these ARE some of the most common idol/deities in all of Egyptian lore. So it SHOULD be easy for you to at least show us where the names “Elkenah”, “ Libnah”, “Mahmackrah” and “Korash” appear in some other ancient Egyptian mythology. So ...go ahead.

I dare ya.

Or are you going to do the Mormon thing and just ignore the actual topic of this discussion and try to change the subject in an obviously desperate attempt to hide the fact that your so-called "prophet" was nothing but a con artist and totally full of bunk?

I bet you will do the latter.

Let's see...

-BH

.

[neverending]

Such irony... you would not join a Church based on the actions of a man, but you want me to give up the Lord's Church based on the actions of a man. Got to love the reasoning here.
BTW.. once again... you can not shame me or make me feel guilty, the only one who has had success in that area outside of God, is my wife.


TW, you make NO sense with this post! Where did I say anything about your following any man? I spoke of not following JS, who was a man. Are you now saying that following Christ is following a man? If so, then you are so lost and my prayers will extend even more.
I would appreciate an explanation of what you wrote here. I was NOT trying to make you feel anything, that is your own doing. ALL I said was that you were ignorning my posts I had written to you. You're the one who brought up guilt....a Freudian slip I would say?

[theway]

TW, you make NO sense with this post! Where did I say anything about your following any man? I spoke of not following JS, who was a man. Are you now saying that following Christ is following a man? If so, then you are so lost and my prayers will extend even more.

Perhaps you need to focus on your reading skills a little more. Let's look...


Such irony... you would not join a Church based on the actions of a man, but you want me to give up the Lord's Church based on the actions of a man. Notice I said "YOU" would not follow a man; not me.


I would appreciate an explanation of what you wrote here. I was NOT trying to make you feel anything, that is your own doing. ALL I said was that you were ignorning my posts I had written to you. You're the one who brought up guilt....a Freudian slip I would say?
Once again, go back and read what I responded to..
TW: was I accusing you of anything other than not responding to my posts? NOPE....so guess you're feeling like the guilty party here; sorry Notice that it was you who insinuated that I was feeling guilty.

[jdjhere]

OK SnowPatrol and TheWay.. back to the reason for this- Post #1

So the challenge to Mormons here is this: SHOW US why we should think that 100% of all qualified Egyptologists and scholars from all related fields are all WRONG to identify these figures as “Qebehseneuf”, “Duamutef”, “Hapy” and “Imsety” and correct the entire academy of Egyptologists by showing us (and them) why those deities are REALLY to be identified as “Elkenah”, “ Libnah”, “Mahmackrah” and “Korash” .

You may begin by showing us that the names used by Joseph Smith AT LEAST existed somewhere in Egyptian lore BEFORE he showed up in the early 1800s and claimed that they did. Then you can conclusively demonstrate the “inspiration” of your so-called “prophet” by simply showing us that the names he used are indeed correctly ***ociated with the idols to which he attached them.

And please ...don’t try to change the subject by making ME (or anyone or anything else) the issue here. Such behaviors will be quickly identified and exposed.

Thank you

-BH

Your time to shine...both of you..go!

[Radix]

Interesting that two Mormons are posting on this thread, and despite the numerous posts from them, neither one has the guts to discuss the actual topic of the thread. This just goes to show that the blinder one's faith actually is, the tighter they will hold on to it. They are 100% incapable of presenting even a feeble attempt at defending their main prophet.

[jdjhere]

Post #78 TheWay stated: "Perhaps you need to focus on your reading skills a little more...."

Perhaps YOU need to start answering the questions posted here as posted in Post #1

[jdjhere]

Let us help you...

So the challenge to Mormons here is this: SHOW US why we should think that 100% of all qualified Egyptologists and scholars from all related fields are all WRONG to identify these figures as “Qebehseneuf”, “Duamutef”, “Hapy” and “Imsety” and correct the entire academy of Egyptologists by showing us (and them) why those deities are REALLY to be identified as “Elkenah”, “ Libnah”, “Mahmackrah” and “Korash” .

You may begin by showing us that the names used by Joseph Smith AT LEAST existed somewhere in Egyptian lore BEFORE he showed up in the early 1800s and claimed that they did. Then you can conclusively demonstrate the “inspiration” of your so-called “prophet” by simply showing us that the names he used are indeed correctly ***ociated with the idols to which he attached them.

And please ...don’t try to change the subject by making ME (or anyone or anything else) the issue here. Such behaviors will be quickly identified and exposed.

Thank you

-BH

[BrianH]

Interesting that two Mormons are posting on this thread, and despite the numerous posts from them, neither one has the guts to discuss the actual topic of the thread.

Interesting but not unique. Look at all of the MANY threads all over this board where you see the exact same behavior. Lots of postings by Mormons, but not even a feeble attempt to meet the challenge in the OP.

Somehow, the Mormons seem to think that they are fooling someone ...other than themselves, that is.

-BH

.

[BrianH]

Mormons and non-Mormons agree on this point: Joseph Smtih could not read Egyptian hieroglyphics or texts. The credibility of the Mormon religion hinges on the (very weak) claim that their "prophet" translated what is universally recognized among all qualified experts as the "Breathing Permit of Hor" into the so-called "Book of Abraham" (as well as all of the other LDS scriptures supposedly translated by their "prophet") by using what they call, "the gift and power of God".

In other words, according to Mormon doctrine, it is God himself who actually translated the "Book of Abraham" (and the other LDS "scriptures" as well).

Here is the clear implication of the LDS claim: Since it was God Himself who supposedly translated the Book of Abraham (again, from what is universally recognized as nothing more than a common "Breathing Permit"), then the Mormons SHOULD be able to show us that 100% of all of the qualified experts in the world are all totally wrong to have identified these Egyptian deities as “Qebehseneuf”, “Duamutef”, “Hapy” and “Imsety”, because SMITH'S translation (ie. God's translation) is THE correct one and it is SMITH (ie God) who has identified them CORRECTLY. So either God is right and all of the world's Egyptian language experts, historians, scholars, archaeologists and mythologists are wrong, or else God is a liar or an illiterate imbecille who cannot even translate his own words correctly.

Mormons, please SHOW US that "Elkenah", "Libnah", "Majmackrah" and "Korash" are the REAL deities of ancient Egypt and that the use of the names “Qebehseneuf”, “Duamutef”, “Hapy” and “Imsety”, as well as the references to these idol/deities throughout all of Egyptian lore is INCORRECT.

Your continuing and highly predictable FAILURE to meet what SHOULD be a very easy challenge, let alone to even TRY to do so, will only continue to prove that you yourselves know that you and your church are propegating known lies in the name of Jesus Christ.

I would think that such behavior would concern you...

-BH

.

[BrianH]

Over 1,200 hits in just over two months, and we STILL see not even ONE ATTEMPT by any Mormon to show us that Smith's supposedly supernatural translation which rendered these VERY common Egyptian Idols as "Elkenah, Libnah, Mahmackrah and Korash" is even close to correct.

This tiny portion of the supposed "Book of Abraham", is altogether representative of the entire translation. The indisputable FACT is that while Smith claimed that his translation was received from God himself, the reality is, he did not get a SINGLE letter right.

NOT

EVEN

ONE

...Joseph Smith FAKED this LDS "scripture".

The only question left is, how many of his other "revelations from God" were equally FAKE?

I am pretty sure I know the answer. Are there any Mormons who might want to take a guess?

-BH

.

[BrianH]

Still Waiting...(NT)

[Russianwolfe]

Still Waiting...(NT)

You are an ugly shade of blue. I have seen this shade of blue only once before. And she died.

Marvin

[BrianH]

You are an ugly shade of blue. I have seen this shade of blue only once before. And she died.

Marvin

Note how, when the Mormon knows he cannot even hope to answer the challenge to support the claims of his weird little cult, he is forced by his damaged ego to try to hide his retreat behind the transparent scrim of lame insults and name calling.

Thank you Marvin, for living down to everyone's expectations and proving once again just how vacuous Mormonism has left you.

-BH

.

[Russianwolfe]

Note how, when the Mormon knows he cannot even hope to answer the challenge to support the claims of his weird little cult, he is forced by his damaged ego to try to hide his retreat behind the transparent scrim of lame insults and name calling.

Thank you Marvin, for living down to everyone's expectations and proving once again just how vacuous Mormonism has left you.

-BH

.

I guess you are sarcastically challenged. Your demands are ridiculous and your expectations are unbelievable. Your claim to victory when you have yet to present your claims or questions before the world just in this little pond in a bywater of the internet shows what a fantastically large and damaged ego you have.

The fact that you are banned from the very sites that could provde an answer shows that you cannot play nice with those who disagree with you.

Marvin

[BrianH]

BH>>Now DANCE or FLEE...

Your choice.


Apparently, Marvin chose to FLEE. The Mormon cannot support the claims of his religion and, in true Mormon form, he arrogantly dismisses the challenge to support his "prophet's" supposedly miraculous translation as "ridiculous" and "unbelievable" and tried to make ME the topic of debate all in a vain, clumsy and transparent attempt to hide his incapacity. This is SO typical of LDS tactics.

When challenged again to get on topic and actually meet the original challenge, which he could only mock, or to at least explain precisely what is so "ridiculous" and "unbelievable" about asking him to show us why we should agree with him that 100% of all established expertise on the matter of Egyptian language, mythology, religion and literature (including the ancient Egyptians themselves!!!) are WRONG to identify these well-known idol gods as "Qebehseneuf”, “Duamutef”, “Hapy” and “Imsety” instead of “Elkenah”, “ Libnah”, “Mahmackrah” and “Korash” ...he FLEES like darkness flees light.

This shows us all just what Mormonism is made of.

Lies and cowardice.

-BH

.

[John T]

I guess you are sarcastically challenged. <snip>

The fact that you are banned from the very sites that could provde an answer shows that you cannot play nice with those who disagree with you. Marvin

YOU BEAR FALSE WITNESS AGAINST BRIAN!
I just checked, and there is no "suspended/banned" under his name or any of his posts.

NOW ARE YOU GOING TO MAN UP, AND OFFER AN APOLOGY?

What shall we say about the likes of Hank Saint, Richard, Priest, NRA Jeff, maclellan or other "notables"?

But you see that this is ANOTHER (sigh) derailing tactic. You guys are soo unable to deal with issues, and your derailing attempts is sooo obvious that I wonder if they train you at MTS to dodge, deflect and derail so that the obvious deficiencies of your non-Christian cult are obscured.

In this instance, there is NO real difference between what you did above, and what another poster here and on CARM did to a couple who post here. That UNNANED poster has my utmost contempt because there was no difference in his sick, sick post which attempted to destroy their marriage in order to "score some points" for Mormonism, and that is exactly what you just did to BrianH.

To say that one post of the UN-NAMED poster, and compare it with yours by saying that one is "less repulsive" than the other is to make a distinction without a difference.

Both posts demonstrate the sulfurous fruits of your religion. :mad:

(apologies to Billie Holiday for messin' with her song.)

[Russianwolfe]

So, JohnT, how does the Mormon Dialogue & Discussion board handle those who are banned? BrianH has bragged in the past, along with James Banta, that the LDS there couldn't take their 'honest dialogue' and banned them. So my witness is not false.

So will you man up and apologize for your false accusation?

Marvin


YOU BEAR FALSE WITNESS AGAINST BRIAN!
I just checked, and there is no "suspended/banned" under his name or any of his posts.

NOW ARE YOU GOING TO MAN UP, AND OFFER AN APOLOGY?

What shall we say about the likes of Hank Saint, Richard, Priest, NRA Jeff, maclellan or other "notables"?

But you see that this is ANOTHER (sigh) derailing tactic. You guys are soo unable to deal with issues, and your derailing attempts is sooo obvious that I wonder if they train you at MTS to dodge, deflect and derail so that the obvious deficiencies of your non-Christian cult are obscured.

In this instance, there is NO real difference between what you did above, and what another poster here and on CARM did to a couple who post here. That UNNANED poster has my utmost contempt because there was no difference in his sick, sick post which attempted to destroy their marriage in order to "score some points" for Mormonism, and that is exactly what you just did to BrianH.

To say that one post of the UN-NAMED poster, and compare it with yours by saying that one is "less repulsive" than the other is to make a distinction without a difference.

Both posts demonstrate the sulfurous fruits of your religion. :mad:

(apologies to Billie Holiday for messin' with her song.)

[jdjhere]

Ok Russianwolfe. Since you say to BrianH "Your demands are ridiculous and your expectations are unbelievable", lets take one thing at a time. Can you just answer if this one question is true or not? Thanks

There are NO Egyptian gods named “Elkenah”, “ Libnah”, “Mahmackrah” and “Korash” (not discovered in the science of Archeology). Those names appear NOWHERE in the vast archives of Egyptian literature, mythology, lore and oral tradition. Nor do they appear on any monument or on any other archaeological find. They simply do not exist anywhere in any Egyptian sources. In fact, they appear NOWHERE outside the BoA.

Is this true or false? Thanks

[BrianH]

So, JohnT, how does the Mormon Dialogue & Discussion board handle those who are banned? BrianH has bragged in the past, along with James Banta, that the LDS there couldn't take their 'honest dialogue' and banned them. So my witness is not false.

So will you man up and apologize for your false accusation?

Marvin

I have never "bragged" nor even claimed to have been banned from the LDS board.

More to the point though, no one there can answer this challenge any better than you have here - which is to say, not at all. Instead you are doing the Mormon thing: trying to change the subject, using stoopid accusations, childish insults, false claims and other evasions all the while failing to address the actual topic.

Speaking of the topic, (the challenge you could only dismiss as "unbeliveale" and "ridiculous"), please answer the question. You will not escape your responsibility to do so by all your usual shallow and transparent tricks.

You don't fool anyone, Marvin. Everyone here knows that you have NOTHING. Your own behavior shows that YOU yourself know you have nothing.

-BH

.

[John T]

So, JohnT, how does the Mormon Dialogue & Discussion board handle those who are banned? BrianH has bragged in the past, along with James Banta, that the LDS there couldn't take their 'honest dialogue' and banned them. So my witness is not false.

So will you man up and apologize for your false accusation? Marvin

I will apologize for the parts that were wrong; I am unaware of his status on boards other than CARM, you could be right.

As to CARM, I was correct.

This is the sort of thing that happens when we are not specific, and it happens to ALL of us at one time or another.

That being said, what relevance is that to his OP?

Seems like a derailing tactic when someone posts about something extraneous to the OP, but I could be wrong on that. :rolleyes:

[BrianH]

I will apologize for the parts that were wrong; I am unaware of his status on boards other than CARM, you could be right.

...But he's not. I am not banned from the LDS board. I am not banned from ANY board. More to the point, no matter how much he may wish I was the topic here, I am NOT the topic here. Its always easy to attack a PERSON, instead of dealing with the ideas on a board like this, and it is certainly easier than even trying to actually address the topic, especially when the topic proves that your so-called "prophet" was nothing but a common con artist.


As to CARM, I was correct.

This is the sort of thing that happens when we are not specific, and it happens to ALL of us at one time or another.

That being said, what relevance is that to his OP?

Seems like a derailing tactic when someone posts about something extraneous to the OP, but I could be wrong on that. :rolleyes:

...But you're not. In fact that is exactly what Mormons do all over this board. They try (and sadly they frequently succeed) to derail any and all challenges to the claims of their religion off onto some irrelevant tangent, such as making accusations against those who dare to question what their leaders proclaim. That is what Mormons DO, and they do it reflexively. Its as if they cannot help themselves. They do it even after you tell the that is exactly what they will do!

-BH

.

[John T]

...But he's not. I am not banned from the LDS board. I am not banned from ANY board. More to the point, no matter how much he may wish I was the topic here, I am NOT the topic here. Its always easy to attack a PERSON, instead of dealing with the ideas on a board like this, and it is certainly easier than even trying to actually address the topic, especially when the topic proves that your so-called "prophet" was nothing but a common con artist.

I rescind my apology




...But you're not. In fact that is exactly what Mormons do all over this board. They try (and sadly they frequently succeed) to derail any and all challenges to the claims of their religion off onto some irrelevant tangent, such as making accusations against those who dare to question what their leaders proclaim. That is what Mormons DO, and they do it reflexively. Its as if they cannot help themselves. They do it even after you tell the that is exactly what they will do! -BH .

I used the sarcastic, roll eyes emoticon to indicate that I was being sarcastic, :rolleyes: and that indeed, he was derailing.

[BrianH]

I used the sarcastic, roll eyes emoticon to indicate that I was being sarcastic, :rolleyes: and that indeed, he was derailing.

I know. I got that. And you are right, derailing is the quintessential Mormon tactic so evident all over this thread and all over this board.

-BH

.

[jdjhere]

RUSSIANWOLFE (Its like PULLING TEETH around here to get answers!) Sheesh!

Russianwolfe stated about BrianH: "Your demands are ridiculous and your expectations are unbelievable"

The question below does not fall into the "demands are ridiculous and your expectations are unbelievable" category at ALL.

So, Russianwolfe, can you just answer if this one question is true or not? Thanks

There are NO Egyptian gods named “Elkenah”, “ Libnah”, “Mahmackrah” and “Korash” (not discovered in the science of Archeology). Those names appear NOWHERE in the vast archives of Egyptian literature, mythology, lore and oral tradition. Nor do they appear on any monument or on any other archaeological find. They simply do not exist anywhere in any Egyptian sources. In fact, they appear NOWHERE outside the BoA.

Is this true or false? Are you going to answer ANYTHING??!!?? Thanks

[Russianwolfe]

So where do we find these names:


Abraham 1:13

13 It was made after the form of a bedstead, such as was had among the Chaldeans, and it stood before the gods of Elkenah, Libnah, Mahmackrah, Korash, and also a god like unto that of Pharaoh, king of Egypt.


Seems that you have a major problem here. This is the first chapter of Abraham and the only time Egypt is mentioned in this chapter is at the end when Abraham reviews the government of Egypt. The priest that attempts to kill Abraham is Chaldean not Egyptian.

Seems you and BrianH got it wrong. These are not Egyptian gods.

Marvin



RUSSIANWOLFE (Its like PULLING TEETH around here to get answers!) Sheesh!

Russianwolfe stated about BrianH: "Your demands are ridiculous and your expectations are unbelievable"

The question below does not fall into the "demands are ridiculous and your expectations are unbelievable" category at ALL.

So, Russianwolfe, can you just answer if this one question is true or not? Thanks

There are NO Egyptian gods named “Elkenah”, “ Libnah”, “Mahmackrah” and “Korash” (not discovered in the science of Archeology). Those names appear NOWHERE in the vast archives of Egyptian literature, mythology, lore and oral tradition. Nor do they appear on any monument or on any other archaeological find. They simply do not exist anywhere in any Egyptian sources. In fact, they appear NOWHERE outside the BoA.

Is this true or false? Are you going to answer ANYTHING??!!?? Thanks

[Radix]

I guess you are sarcastically challenged. Your demands are ridiculous and your expectations are unbelievable. Your claim to victory when you have yet to present your claims or questions before the world just in this little pond in a bywater of the internet shows what a fantastically large and damaged ego you have.

The fact that you are banned from the very sites that could provde an answer shows that you cannot play nice with those who disagree with you.

Marvin

Thank you Marvin for this laugh. If there are actual answers, it does not matter what site you go too. Of course, if your only reality is in a cult, then maybe that is how you see it. But as I said, thank you for the laugh.

[akaSeerone]

Thank you Marvin for this laugh. If there are actual answers, it does not matter what site you go too. Of course, if your only reality is in a cult, then maybe that is how you see it. But as I said, thank you for the laugh.Yep....that was a good laugh except for the part where he was attacking you (and his entire reply was more or less attacking you) and saying nothing to defend Mormonism.

Well no one to date has been able to defend Mormonism; it is a hopeless task and obviously they know it, so they do all kinds of crazy stuff to try and cover up for that fact, but it doesn't work here, so I wonder why they keep trying such foolish tactics instead of paying attention to what us Holy Christians have to say so they can get right with God.

So many souls with the opportunity to get off the Highway to Hell and onto the path of righteousness, but they sneer and hiss at it and attack us instead.

Sure makes me wonder just what has become of their brains when they refuse to hear/consider the Truth when it is presented to them.

Andy

[jdjhere]

Russianwolfe- where do these "gods" show up in any "chaldean" archelogical finds then?

[BrianH]

So where do we find these names:


Seems that you have a major problem here. This is the first chapter of Abraham and the only time Egypt is mentioned in this chapter is at the end when Abraham reviews the government of Egypt. The priest that attempts to kill Abraham is Chaldean not Egyptian.

Seems you and BrianH got it wrong. These are not Egyptian gods.

Marvin

Oh brother... You poor guy. Okay, lets get this straight, FIRST of all, this is an EGYPTIAN document, NOT a Chaldean document.

SECONDLY, it was YOUR so-called "prophet" who identified it as an "Egyptian" document (after someone TOLD him that is what it was, of course). So YOU are the one with the problem here, because YOU are contradicting your own "prophet".

THIRDLY, the entire document has been indisputably identified as an EGYPTIAN document by every single qualified Egyptologist who has ever commented on it, including all BOTH Mormon Egyptologists. Furthermore it has been specifically identified a pagan "breathing permit" relating directly from the Egyptian Book of the Dead, Egyptian mythology and religion where these Egyptian deities are clearly and indisputably named as “Qebehseneuf”, “Duamutef”, “Hapy” and “Imsety”.

FOURTHLY, it cannot even possibly have been a Chaldean document as you just claimed, since there was no such thing as the Chaldee language in Abraham's day! You obviously do not have any idea what you are talking about and are clearly in a state of total desperation and just making up excuses as fast as you an imagine them.

Finally, it is clear that you cannot even begin to provide any reasons to think that these Egyptian deities (as identified by Smith) were REALLY Elhinah, Libnah, Mahmackrah and Korash. Nor are there any such Egyptian deities as these. And more to the point, you yourself know that you cannot even hope to show that they were Chaldean deities either.

Your're busted, Marvin. That you have been reduced to such fantasies as you have just demonstrated to try to defend this obvious hoax only demonstrates just how desperate and vacuous your position really is.

-BH

.

[Russianwolfe]

Oh brother... You poor guy. Okay, lets get this straight, FIRST of all, this is an EGYPTIAN document, NOT a Chaldean document.


Yes, the document is Egyptian. But I am talking about the Book of Abraham where the names you refer to comes from. And this book tells the story of Abraham. And where does the story of Abraham start?



Genesis 11: 27 ¶Now these are the generations of Terah: Terah begat Abram, Nahor, and Haran; and Haran begat Lot.

28 And Haran died before his father Terah in the land of his nativity, in Ur of the Chaldees.

29 And Abram and Nahor took them wives: the name of Abram’s wife was Sarai; and the name of Nahor’s wife, Milcah, the daughter of Haran, the father of Milcah, and the father of Iscah.


Even the Bible agrees with me, the story of Abraham starts in Ur of the Chaldees.

And the Book of Abraham chapters are summarized below


Chapter Headings or Summaries
Chapter 1
Abraham seeks the blessings of the patriarchal order—He is persecuted by false priests in Chaldea—Jehovah saves him—The origins and government of Egypt are reviewed.
Chapter 2
Abraham leaves Ur to go to Canaan—Jehovah appears to him at Haran—All gospel blessings are promised to his seed and through his seed to all—He goes to Canaan and on to Egypt.


It tells the story of Abraham which starts in Ur of the Chaldees.



SECONDLY, it was YOUR so-called "prophet" who identified it as an "Egyptian" document (after someone TOLD him that is what it was, of course). So YOU are the one with the problem here, because YOU are contradicting your own "prophet".



It is only your ig-norance that is being contradicted here. You made the false claim that the gods mentioned are Egyptian gods. But examining the document that the names come from reveals that even the document itself identifies that place where Abraham is at the beginning is Chaldea or Chaldees. And the false priest is identified as being from Chaldea.




THIRDLY, the entire document has been indisputably identified as an EGYPTIAN document by every single qualified Egyptologist who has ever commented on it, including all BOTH Mormon Egyptologists. Furthermore it has been specifically identified a pagan "breathing permit" relating directly from the Egyptian Book of the Dead, Egyptian mythology and religion where these Egyptian deities are clearly and indisputably named as “Qebehseneuf”, “Duamutef”, “Hapy” and “Imsety”.


But we aren't talking about that document. You are suppose to be talking about the Book of Abraham because that is where the names come from. The Book of Breathing facsimile is not the Book of Abraham. That has been the Church's stance ever since the document was returned to the Church in the early sixties.





FOURTHLY, it cannot even possibly have been a Chaldean document as you just claimed, since there was no such thing as the Chaldee language in Abraham's day!


And since Abraham is telling his story, what does the language or lack thereof have to do with the story that Abraham tells?




You obviously do not have any idea what you are talking about and are clearly in a state of total desperation and just making up excuses as fast as you an imagine them.




Another false claim.




Finally, it is clear that you cannot even begin to provide any reasons to think that these Egyptian deities (as identified by Smith) were REALLY Elhinah, Libnah, Mahmackrah and Korash. Nor are there any such Egyptian deities as these. And more to the point, you yourself know that you cannot even hope to show that they were Chaldean deities either.



When the Book of Abraham clearly identifies them as being Chaldean, it is no wonder that they cannot be identified as Egyptian.





Your're busted, Marvin. That you have been reduced to such fantasies as you have just demonstrated to try to defend this obvious hoax only demonstrates just how desperate and vacuous your position really is.



The only person busted here is you. You made a claim without examining all the evidence and now you have egg on your face. Even Joseph Smith identifies the facsimile as telling the story of Abraham in Ur of the Chaldees where, as the Book of Abraham relates, the false priests attempt to sacrifice him to the gods that you say are not Egyptian Gods. Of course not, this doesn't take place in Egypt. Why would there be Egyptian Gods in Chaldea?

Another false claim and false ***ertion by BrianH. Creating strawman arguments is not a worthy occupation by a Christian.

Once again, I have to thank Brianh for NOTHING.

Marvin

[BrianH]

Yes, the document is Egyptian. But I am talking about the Book of Abraham where the names you refer to comes from. And this book tells the story of Abraham. And where does the story of Abraham start?

In "Chaldea", WHICH NAME DID NOT EXIST at the time of Abraham. Obviously Smith did not know that, or else he would not have put that name into Abraham's pen. Furthermore, the idols themselves are NOT Chaldean, but EGYPTIAN, and there is no evidence of any mention of "Elkinah", "Libnah", "Mahmackrah" or "Korash" in the Chaldean language or mythology, just as they do not exist in Egyptian. They are clearly nothing more than the products of Smith's imagination.


Even the Bible agrees with me, the story of Abraham starts in Ur of the Chaldees.

ugh... Okay, pay attention. The story of Abraham took place BEOFRE there ever was a "Chaldea". That term did not appear until AFTER Abraham was long dead, and thus Smith's attribution of the term to Abraham, is just another manifestation of his total ignoran ce of the history of the region. Smith saw the term in the Bible and thought it must have existed in Abraham's day. But ...Genesis was not written in Abraham's day, Marvin. It was written by MOSES in Moses' day, over 400 years LATER, when there was a land known as "Chaldea" and a language known as "Chaldee". The appearance of the term in the BoA is a total anachronism, as are the appearances of several other terms.


And the Book of Abraham chapters are summarized below

It tells the story of Abraham which starts in Ur of the Chaldees.

...Which was not known by that name in Abraham's day. Therefore what you have is a FIRST CENTURY AD Egyptian document, putting terms from 2,000 BC into the mouth of Abraham who lived 400 years before those terms even existed. Are you at least beginning to see the problem here?


It is only your ig-norance that is being contradicted here. You made the false claim that the gods mentioned are Egyptian gods. But examining the document that the names come from reveals that even the document itself identifies that place where Abraham is at the beginning is Chaldea or Chaldees. And the false priest is identified as being from Chaldea.

You have accused me of making a false claim. I challenge you to back that up by doing more than just puking up a programmed emotional response. I challenge you to actually SHOW US that this universally recognized EGYPTIAN document, (dating to the 1st C. AD) clearly portraying indisputable EGYPTIAN gods, well documented throughout EGYPTIAN literature, religion and mythology is ACTUALLY all about Chaldean deities (that ALSO have never been show to exist). Until you do, it will remain self-evident that it is YOU who is absolutely and totally ignoran t here.

And again, the land of "Chaldea" did not exist in Abraham's day - or actually was not known by that name in his day. Nor did the "Chaldee" language exist. Those are terms that developed long after Abraham was DEAD tracing to hundreds of years LATER. It is impossible for Abraham to have written about a people and a language that did not exist. Why can you not deal with such a simple FACT? Its because you know that this whole issue totally and completely DEBUNKS your entire religion.



But we aren't talking about that document. You are suppose to be talking about the Book of Abraham because that is where the names come from. The Book of Breathing facsimile is not the Book of Abraham. That has been the Church's stance ever since the document was returned to the Church in the early sixties.

We are talking about the very papyrus from which the facsimiles in your BOA were clearly copied. It is THAT document that we are talking about here. YOU had better start paying attention. If you ever expect to begin to develop some credibility here you had betterlearn how to identify the at least the document in question!!


And since Abraham is telling his story, what does the language or lack thereof have to do with the story that Abraham tells?

Because that language did not exist in Abraham's day!!



Another false claim.


The truth of my claim is evident in the FACT that you cannot even begin to support your claims. All you can do, apparently, is whimper out stoopid, empty accusations like this one. Keep running, Marvin. Its what you Mormons do best.



When the Book of Abraham clearly identifies them as being Chaldean, it is no wonder that they cannot be identified as Egyptian.

Again the problems you are avoiding are these:

1.) There was no such thing as "Chaldean" in Abrham's day.
2.) The idols we are talking about have been indisputably identified as the well-known, thoroughly-documented EGYPTIAN mythical deities known as "“Qebehseneuf”, “Duamutef”, “Hapy” and “Imsety”. They appear all over Egyptian myth and are routinely observed in other "Breathing Permits" just as they appear in THIS one.

I refer you to THIS (http://www.lds-mormon.com/thompson_book_of_abraham.shtml) published article by LDS Egyptologist, Stephen Thompson. Read it and weep.

Here is a little taste of the doom of your religion:


The first such term, Chaldea, occurs in Abraham 1:1, and subsequently verses 8, 13, 20, 23, 29-30, and 2:4. The Chaldeans (Hebrew kasdim) were a people who spoke a West-Semitic language similar to Aramaic and who appeared in the ninth century B.C. in the land south of Babylonia, and appear to have migrated from Syria. Westermann has noted that the city of Ur could be qualified as "of the Chaldees" only from the tenth to the sixth centuries, in any case, not before the first millennium.

The second anachronistic word we encounter in the text is Pharaoh. In Abraham 1:6 we find "Pharaoh, king of Egypt." In Abraham 1:20 we are told that Pharaoh "signifies king by royal blood." There is one p***age in which the term is treated as a name, rather than as a ***le. In Abraham 1:25 we read "the first government of Egypt was established by Pharaoh, the eldest son of Egyptus, the daughter of Ham."

It goes on to detail many other such anachronistic terms and ideas in your so-called "Book of Abraham", which your prophet is said to have "miraculously" translated from a universally recognized EGYPTIAN document.



...Why would there be Egyptian Gods in Chaldea?

As usual, you have it backwards. The correct question is, why would there be 1st century Egyptian deities mentioned in a 2,400BC Chaldean document?


Another false claim and false ***ertion by BrianH. Creating strawman arguments is not a worthy occupation by a Christian.

What is obvious to anyone who can read is that there is nothing false about it. Until you can answer my question above, it is evident that you (and your whole religion) are pretending to hide your inability to answer the original question of this thread by this utterly transparent evasion. Had you enough sense you would be embarr***ed by your own obvious total and complete ignoranc e of the fundamental FACTS here that so totally destroy your whole argument.


Once again, I have to thank Brianh for NOTHING.

Marvin

Just keep running, Marvin.

Just keep running. Maybe the day will come when your personal incapacity to deal with the facts will become as obvoius to YOU as they are to anyone who can at least read English, and at most, knows the basic facts of history that so clearly debunk your empty fantasies.

-BH

.

[BrianH]

Over 1,860 hits and STILL not even ONE attempt by any Mormon to show that the God's known as, “Elkenah”, “ Libnah”, “Mahmackrah” and “Korash” ever even existed anywhere in Egyptian lore, let alone that the the mythical “sons of Horus” known as “Qebehseneuf” (fig. #5 on the papyrus and duplicated in Facsimile #1), “Duamutef” (fig. #6), “Hapy” (fig. #7) and “Imsety” (fig. #8), are misidentified by the universal consensus of all qualified Egyptologists, archaeologists, historians, anthropologists and other informed experts.

The latest attempt to cover the total inability of the entire Mormon world to produce any substantiation for this nonsense, is to accuse me of making false claims, while pretending that these are REALLY "Chaldean" gods, and NOT Egyptian deities.

Sadly for Mormons everywhere, this incoherent nonsense fails to deal with the original claims of the LDS "prophet" and his organization, and it ALSO proves just how totally FAKE the entire BoA really is, since there not only are no Chaldean deities known as “Elkenah”, “ Libnah”, “Mahmackrah” and “Korash” (just as they do not exist in any Egyptian mythology or lore), but the document from which these names were allegedly translated is CLEARLY and indisputably EGYPTIAN and NOT "Chaldean". In fact there was no such language, nor were there even any people known as "Chaldeans" in Abraham's day. So once again it is pretty darn obvious that Joe Smith was just makin' stuff up.

But Mormons continue to actually believe this rubbish, even as they not only fail to even try to offer a defense of it, their attempted distractions only demonstrate additional ignor ance and confusion.

-BH

.

[BrianH]

Woops ...sliped off the front page there for a second...

How about it Mormons? Let's see you provide a lick of evidence that there was EVER any mention of Elkenah, Libnah, Mahmackrah and Korash anywhere in Egyptian literature and lore. After all, these ARE extremely common idols, showing up all over Egyptian literature and artifcats. If your "prophet" was telling the truth about them, you SHOULD be able to show us that he AT LEAST named them correctly.

If he could not at least NAME them, why should anyone think he got any other part of his supposedly miraculous "translation" right?

Face it: your boy Smith was a total fraud. A faker. A phony. A FALSE prophet who is leading you directly to HELL.

-BH

.

[BrianH]

Julie sez they have answered my challenges, such as this one. So this is a bump for Julie to SHOW where they ANSWERED the question here. SHOW US why we should think that the Egyptians ever knew of the supposed deities named by "prophet" Smith as Elkenah, Libnah, Mahmackrah and Korash.

Still waiting on this one too...

[BrianH]

I guess Juile has discovered that, despite her claims to the contrary, she herself knows that neither she nor any other Mormon has ever answered this challenge to simply show us some reasons to think that Joseph Smith's supposed miraculous gift for translating languages he could not even read was anything more than a figment of his fevered imagination.

-BH

.

[BrianH]

Perhaps the OP was too long and Mormons found all of those facts confusing. Okay. Here is the short version...

The LDS "prophet", Joe Smith, claimed to have translated a common, pagan "breathing permit" (as practiced in the Egyptian religion) into the so-called "Book of Abraham". This book is LDS "scripture" regarded as the very word of God by Mormons, supposedly written by Abraham himself.

In this translation there are many errors. In fact, Smith got exactly NOTHING right. Case in point: Smith identified the four idols depicted in one of the hieroglyphics as “Elkenah”, “ Libnah”, “Mahmackrah” and “Korash”.

I am asking that Mormons simply SHOW US that the supposed deities named by Smith in his allegedly miraculous translation were ever recognized by the Egyptians themselves, or anyone else for that matter. Please SHOW US some reason to think that there were EVER any idol/gods in Egyptian (or indeed in ANY) religion, mythology or lore named “Elkenah”, “ Libnah”, “Mahmackrah” and “Korash”.

And since the Egyptians maintained a detailed mythology about these idols known to them as the sons of Horus (“Qebehseneuf”, “Duamutef”, “Hapy” and “Imsety”), why should we think that the Egyptians themselves did not know the names of their own gods?

-BH

.

[Russianwolfe]

Perhaps the OP was too long and Mormons found all of those facts confusing. Okay. Here is the short version...

The LDS "prophet", Joe Smith, claimed to have translated a common, pagan "breathing permit" (as practiced in the Egyptian religion) into the so-called "Book of Abraham". This book is LDS "scripture" regarded as the very word of God by Mormons, supposedly written by Abraham himself.


No, this is your claim, not ours. You would like to think that we claim this because it makes your goal much easier to achieve.




In this translation there are many errors. In fact, Smith got exactly NOTHING right. Case in point: Smith identified the four idols depicted in one of the hieroglyphics as “Elkenah”, “ Libnah”, “Mahmackrah” and “Korash”.



As I have pointed out before, these are not Egyptian gods. These are the Gods from Abraham's childhood. Your attempt to make the Egyptian gods fails when one reads the text.




I am asking that Mormons simply SHOW US that the supposed deities named by Smith in his allegedly miraculous translation were ever recognized by the Egyptians themselves, or anyone else for that matter.


Make up your mind. Are you claiming that Joseph said they were Egyptian gods or not?



Please SHOW US some reason to think that there were EVER any idol/gods in Egyptian (or indeed in ANY) religion, mythology or lore named “Elkenah”, “ Libnah”, “Mahmackrah” and “Korash”.


And since the Egyptians maintained a detailed mythology about these idols known to them as the sons of Horus (“Qebehseneuf”, “Duamutef”, “Hapy” and “Imsety”), why should we think that the Egyptians themselves did not know the names of their own gods?

-BH

.

When you are able, please read the text. These are not Egyptian gods.

Your premise is fatally flawed.

Marvin

[BrianH]

Quit stalling and show us some reason to think that your "prophet" correctly identified these idols, RW. Your stoopid parsing and quibbling games will only fool Mormons. It does not work on normal people.

-BH

.

[Russianwolfe]

Quit stalling and show us some reason to think that your "prophet" correctly identified these idols, RW. Your stoopid parsing and quibbling games will only fool Mormons. It does not work on normal people.

-BH

.

What is that smell?

31

Marvin

[BrianH]

What is that smell?

31

Marvin

Calling me names does not answer the question here, RW. In fact, your behavior proves that you yourself know you are here holding nothing but an empty bag of limp excuses. The FACT is, your so-called "prophet", alleging divine inspiration grossly mis-identified four thoroughly documented and widely recognized pagan Egyptian idols.

Can you show us any reason to think that Smith's "revelation from God" was correct?

Nope. You can't and you know it. So ...all you can do is call me names.

This is what happens to people who turn into Mormons, folks.

-BH

.

[Russianwolfe]

The problem I have with giving you any kind of an answer is your facts are not facts. Read my previous posts and see where I disagree with what you have stated. How am I to answer factual lies?

Marvin



Calling me names does not answer the question here, RW. In fact, your behavior proves that you yourself know you are here holding nothing but an empty bag of limp excuses. The FACT is, your so-called "prophet", alleging divine inspiration grossly mis-identified four thoroughly documented and widely recognized pagan Egyptian idols.

Can you show us any reason to think that Smith's "revelation from God" was correct?

Nope. You can't and you know it. So ...all you can do is call me names.

This is what happens to people who turn into Mormons, folks.

-BH

.

[BrianH]

The problem I have with giving you any kind of an answer is your facts are not facts.

That is a bluntly FALSE statement. The FACT is, the four canopic jars/idols that appear on all breathing permits are universally recognized as the “sons of Horus” - “Qebehseneuf”, “Duamutef”, “Hapy” and “Imsety”. These are well-known Egyptian deities, whether YOU are aware of it or not. Furthermore, they are nowhere recognized as "Elkenah", "Libnah", "Mahmackrah" and "Korash". Just because YOU are totally igno rant of the facts of Egyptian mythology does not mean that they are not the FACTS.


Read my previous posts and see where I disagree with what you have stated. How am I to answer factual lies?

You can disagree all you like, RW. Your personal ignoran ce does not cons***ute a refutation of the FACTS. You have yet to do anything more than emit the usual and totally predictable emotional reaction where you SHOULD be offering some facts to substantiate your disagreement.

Secondly, you have just been reduced to calling me a liar. I will now challenge you (and we both know that you will flee like a scared little girl from this challenge) to substantiate that accusation. Do it now, or stand exposed yet again as just another Mormon who tries to hide his personal ignoranc e and incompetence behind empty accusations that he cannot support.

-BH

.

[Russianwolfe]

Facts are only facts if they are true. What do you call facts that are not true?

Marvin



That is a bluntly FALSE statement. The FACT is, the four canopic jars/idols that appear on all breathing permits are universally recognized as the “sons of Horus” - “Qebehseneuf”, “Duamutef”, “Hapy” and “Imsety”. These are well-known Egyptian deities, whether YOU are aware of it or not. Furthermore, they are nowhere recognized as "Elkenah", "Libnah", "Mahmackrah" and "Korash". Just because YOU are totally igno rant of the facts of Egyptian mythology does not mean that they are not the FACTS.


You can disagree all you like, RW. Your personal ignoran ce does not cons***ute a refutation of the FACTS. You have yet to do anything more than emit the usual and totally predictable emotional reaction where you SHOULD be offering some facts to substantiate your disagreement.

Secondly, you have just been reduced to calling me a liar. I will now challenge you (and we both know that you will flee like a scared little girl from this challenge) to substantiate that accusation. Do it now, or stand exposed yet again as just another Mormon who tries to hide his personal ignoranc e and incompetence behind empty accusations that he cannot support.

-BH

.

[Radix]

Facts are only facts if they are true. What do you call facts that are not true?

Marvin


Marvin, are the facsimiles that Joseph translated Egyptian?

[BrianH]

Facts are only facts if they are true. What do you call facts that are not true?

Marvin

The FACT is, the canopic jars depicted on ALL breathing permits are universally recognized by all qualified archaeologists, historians, linguists, antequarians, and Egyptologists (including BOTH Mormon Egyptologists) as the Sons of Horus. There are exactly NO exceptions to this universal consensus even among those who are only minimally familiar with Egyptian lore (...which obviously excludes YOU).

This means that the FACT is, your so-called "prophet" was a liar and you are defending his proven LIES.

Go ahead and prove me wrong, RW. But you will need to bring something other than your childish, whimpering accusations to do so. You will need to find at least ONE qualified Egyptologist who will identify these EGYPTIAN icons using the names your so-called "prophet" used.

Good luck with that.

LOL!!!!!!!

-BH

.

[BrianH]

Still waiting...

When are we going to see some Mormon substantiate Smith's correction to the universal consensus of all Egyptological scholarship with regard to the identification of the pagan idols depicted in Egyptian mythology?

Never???

I guess so. The closest thing we have seen is RussianWolf trying to pretend that they were not Egyptian at all. Given the indisputable FACT that they have been positively and universally recognized as Egyptian deities on ALL "breathing permits" AND throughout all relevant Egyptian texts and mythology, that is one of the lamest excuses ever attempted by a Mormon.

But that is not even close to an actual answer to the challenge posted in the OP.

Given the total lack of any defense for Smith's "revelation from God", Mormons have simply once again defaulted on their obligation to support the foundational claims of their whole religion.

So what else is new?

-BH

.

[BrianH]

Still waiting...

When are we going to see some Mormon substantiate Smith's correction to the universal consensus of all Egyptological scholarship with regard to the identification of these pagan idols depicted in Egyptian mythology?

The closest thing we have seen is RussianWolf trying to pretend that they were not Egyptian at all. Given the indisputable FACT that they have been positively and universally recognized as Egyptian deities on ALL "breathing permits" AND throughout all relevant Egyptian texts and mythology, that is one of the lamest excuses ever attempted by a Mormon.

But that is not even close to an actual answer to the challenge posted in the OP.

Given the total lack of any defense for Smith's "revelation from God", Mormons have simply once again defaulted on their obligation to support the foundational claims of their whole religion.

The world is left to just wait for Mormons to come up with yet another embarr***ingly lame excuse or to let their silence prove that they themselves have no reason to believe what the LDS organization has told them to "think".

-BH

.

[Sbryson]

Hey BH,

I stumbled onto this post and found this thread somewhat amusing. It seems that people on this forum are somewhat incapable of having an intelligent conversation without childish name calling and attacks:

"I refer you to THIS published article by LDS Egyptologist, Stephen Thompson. Read it and weep."

"Go ahead and prove me wrong, RW. But you will need to bring something other than your childish, whimpering accusations to do so."

I don't know about you, but phrases like "read it and weep" and calling people "stoopid" with "empty fantasies" seems to be on the childish and unkind side. Didn't Jesus preach love, openness, understanding and acceptance? Maybe I'm naive, but shouldn't we approach such questions (as the one you brought up, Marvin, which is a very valid question that many member and non-members alike have) with a spirit of openness, kindness and love?

Calling people "trolls" doesn't accomplish much either, Russianwolfe.

BH, there are many valid answers to your questions. However, even if we (members of the LDS faith) prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that Joseph Smith was in fact correct with his translation of the Facsimile #1, I doubt you would pack up your proverbial bags and come to the LDS church and be baptized, am I right?

I sense a great deal of anger, frustration and downright cruelty towards the LDS church, and I wonder why that is. I'm sorry you feel that way, and I'm hoping you will accept that not every Mormon is a "stooped", ********, lying, blind cult following robot. Many of us do accept there are unanswered questions, but because of the overwhelming amount of facts that do prove that Joseph Smith was a prophet (Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, prophesies about the Civil War, the growth of the Church, his teachings, not to mention the intense spiritual witnesses many have received, and continue to receive of the truth of these things) we have faith that they will be sorted out. Does that make us blind cult followers? I don't think so. The whole concept of a God, Jesus Christ, coming from heaven to sacrifice himself for our sins is pretty outlandish and "cultish" if you think about it from an outsiders view. In that sense I guess we are all in some type of cult or another.

Nevertheless, I have found a great deal about the Book of Abraham that you might find as an interesting read. Keep in mind that this will not answer all of your questions, but I'm hoping this can address some of the questions you proposed in the original post.

These are not official statements of the Church, but still provide some valid points.

http://www2.ida.net/graphics/shirtail/onthe.htm
This documents claims that although the names are not Egyptian, they do contain Egyptian roots, mixed with Syro-Canaanitish elements which makes sense because Abraham is pointing out Ancient Egyptian customs to a non-Egyptian audience.

Here is a small quote from the article, addressing the name of one of the Gods: Mahmackrah


"What we hear is Mah-mackr-ah. The mackr element is very important in
Canaanite names such as Mhr-Anat which means "champion, or upholder of the
goddess Anat." Ramses II called himself Mahr-B'l meaning upholder of Ba'al,
the Canaanite god. Mahr-Rah would be the champion or upholder of Rah, the
Egyptian equivilant of Ba'al.

We need to note that the h in the root must have a heavy sound in order not
to be swallowed up by the r which follows. The shift between the k and the h
can be seen in our own name Mi-cha-el which the Jews wrote Mi-ka-el.
Incidentally, the form of the name rather neatly parallels our Ma-mackr-rah.
Mi-cha-el, like Mi-ca-iah (1 Kings 22). (Nibley, Sept. 1969).

The Canaanite name Maq'arah means a burning incidentally. Interesting that
in the Abraham legends one of them indicates that Abraham's sacrifice was to
be burned in the fire. The Jewish Encyclopedia notes this. The idolatrous
god of Beth-shan is called "Mkl'a", the great god. The first element in his
name, Mkl is Canaanite, while the ending 'a is Egyptian. Another
interesting name form is the Egyptian Mai-m-hqa meaning the lion is ruler.
Our canopic name would then be Mai-m-akr-ah which would mean The lion Akr is
great! Akr being the earth god as lion, and Abraham is on the LION couch to
be sure. The point is, this name is not just meaningless gibberish whatever."

For a delusional cult leader, Joseph really got a lot of things really close here. Maybe he just guessed? Sure, that's a possibility, but pretty unlikely.

Also, Joseph was spot on when he translated the "pillars of heaven" from the support beams on the bottom of the facsimile, and also the correct translation of item 12 - the heaven's, or firmament. It is well known now that Egyptians conceived heaven as a heavenly ocean (Erik Hornung, "Himmelsvorstellungen," Lexikon der Ägyptologie, 2:1216.) You didn't seem to bring any of that up in your original argument. Maybe you overlooked it. In any case, there appears to be evidence that supports Joseph Smith's claim to have translated this Facsimile with surprising accuracy, considering that none of this information was available when Joseph Smith was alive.

Hope this answers some of your questions.

But there are still multiple facets of the facsimile you haven't even covered! What about the fact that most "experts" believe that this is a funeral scene? Well this poses a huge problem, because:

1) The figure in the Facsimile has not only his feet lifted up, but his hands raised in the air (keep in mind that Joseph filled this in because that portion of the papyrus was missing). This is a-typical to other funeral scenes found. In fact, most funeral scenes depict a figure in a sarcophagi, not with his feet in the air and both hands raised (some have been found showing one hand raised, but none with both hands being raised depicting a funeral scene)

Even most interesting is that the scene which Joseph filled in is perfectly consistent with other hieroglyphics depicting "praying", "praise" or "supplication" (http://www.ancient-egypt-priests.com/AE-Cult-english.htm) , which is exactly what Abraham would be doing in that situation. Flip the Abraham character 90 degrees and it fits that profile perfectly.

These symbols can also be found in this book: Sir Alan Gardiner, Egyptian Grammar, Being An Introduction to the Study of Hieroglyphs, 3rd Ed. (Oxford University Press, London: 1966), p. 32, paragraph 24 - which shows this same thing. The symbol for "death" and "bury" is consistent with other burial scenes.

Again, dumb luck that Joseph Smith just happened to get this right? If he were making all this up, it seems pretty unlikely that he would get so many things right. And all this before much of this information was available to him.

[mormongirl]

some other links in favor of the Book of Abraham:

http://en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Abraham/Evidence_for_antiquity

http://publications.maxwellins***ute.byu.edu/publications/jbms/19/1/S00005-5018466fe3fbe4OnElkenah.pdf

[Radix]

Is there a single Egyptologist using his/her training that will validate Joseph Smith really had any clue what so ever about translating Egyptian?

Well???

Didn't think so. You provide a lot of desperation with no real teeth.

[Joseph8136]

Greetings
I am a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, otherwise known as the Mormon Church. Here are a couple of thoughts to factor in to your discussion.

First, we as Mormons are used to being ‘beaten-over-the-head’ by detractors over the items that are supposedly false or fraudulent about our religion. We don’t come back to argue with you, not because our position is untenable, but because it is a waste of our time. We are content to wait until time proves us right. For example, we suffered years of har***ment about how the Book of Mormon had to be false because there was no DNA evidence of Hebrew lineage in the Americas. Guess what! Now there is not only DNA evidence, but also evidence of Hebrew writing found on artifacts in North America. Defending against that kind of argument was a useless exercise.

Second, we prefer to base our lives on the many things that we know to be true than on one or two doubtful issues raised by detractors. Millions of Mormons have the sure witness of the Holy Spirit that the Gospel of Jesus Christ has been restored. This is a glad message that your “restorationist” Protestant religions are still seeking. That witness is confirmed time and time again. Why should we spend time buried in your polemic when we know that ultimately we will be vindicated.

Third, you approach this question with several wrong ***umptions. You ***ume from the start that Joseph Smith is a fraud and therefor the Book of Abraham must be fraudulent. You ***ume that Egyptology is now a closed science – knowing everything that there is to know about ancient Egypt and its language, and that there are no more ‘Dead Sea Scrolls’ to be found. You simply can’t know this. You also ***ume that all the names in the Book of Abraham are Egyptian. There was a great deal of trade among the ancient nations and many cross-boundary gods. In the process you miss wonderful aspects of the Book of Abraham, many of which agree with and add to both Jewish and Islamic traditions about this great patriarch.

I invite you to wipe your slate clean and come to the question of Joseph Smith with fresh eyes. Ask yourself, “What if Joseph Smith really was a prophet called by Christ himself?” We know that we are in the end times and that many momentous events will happen prior to the coming of Christ and His millennial reign. Does it make sense that all this will happen without prophetic leadership when God has said that he will do nothing without informing his appointed prophet leaders? (Amos 3:7) Christ even appointed a forerunner for His personal mission on earth. It will truly be a shame if you p*** beyond the veil only to find Joseph Smith standing with the likes of Adam, Enoch, Abraham, Moses, Isaiah, Peter and yes, even the Savior himself.

I know by the witness of the Spirit that Joseph Smith was visited by the Father and the Son, and called by them to be the first prophet of this dispensation. He translated the Book of Mormon by the gift and power of God. You can know this too but you will have to set aside your prejudice and ask with an open heart. As stated by the ancient prophet Moroni:
And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost. (Moroni 10:4)

God bless you to open your heart and find the truth.