An Opportunity for Russ

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

Russ,

I don't believe I have ever seen a personal affirmation of faith from you. I saw a general one on your website, but it was obviously copied from other websites as I did a quick google search.

Do you have a personal witness or testimony of your faith? And if so, why do you never share it?

Here's your opportunity.

Either we will rip your testimony and your sincere expression of faith to shreds as you watch, ...or we will congratulate you for mustering enough personal courage to share something personal and sacred, even though we may disagree with it.

Lot's of LDS people have opened up to you. Now is your chance to do the same. I'm curious how I and others will respond when or if you do.

It's an invitation, and the ball is in your court.

Thanks.

[Russ]

On my website, right side, blue navigation bar: statement of faith.

[SavedbyTruth]

On my website, right side, blue navigation bar: statement of faith.

Russ,

Here was the part of the OP which you missed: (I bolded and changed the color for a portion of the OP)


Russ,

I don't believe I have ever seen a personal affirmation of faith from you. I saw a general one on your website, but it was obviously copied from other websites as I did a quick google search.

Do you have a personal witness or testimony of your faith? And if so, why do you never share it?

Here's your opportunity.

Either we will rip your testimony and your sincere expression of faith to shreds as you watch, ...or we will congratulate you for mustering enough personal courage to share something personal and sacred, even though we may disagree with it.

Lot's of LDS people have opened up to you. Now is your chance to do the same. I'm curious how I and others will respond when or if you do.

It's an invitation, and the ball is in your court.

Thanks.

SbT

[Russ]

Russ,

Here was the part of the OP which you missed: (I bolded and changed the color for a portion of the OP)



SbT

The statements are there. They say what they say.

The Bible says it, I believe it and that settles it.

If there are any specific points you wish to discuss in relation to LDS theology, bring it.

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

The statements are there. They say what they say.

The Bible says it, I believe it and that settles it.

If there are any specific points you wish to discuss in relation to LDS theology, bring it.

This same statement is just copied from someone else's work, Russ.

Isn't there a personal aspect to your faith?

[SavedbyTruth]

[QUOTE=Russ;3561]The statements are there. They say what they say.
Russ,


So, you have a Statement of Faith. It says nothing about how or why you came to agree with these things. There is no context indicating supportive scripture. There is nothing about what the knowledge of your faith means to you. A list is devoid of emotion and conviction.


The Bible says it, I believe it and that settles it.

Not really. But it explains a lot about you not responding with your own words when asked questions.


If there are any specific points you wish to discuss in relation to LDS theology, bring it.

Off topic.

Everybody knows (even you) pointing to a list of what your beliefs are is NOT the same thing as active participation using your own words in a discussion.

SbT

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

The Bible says it, I believe it and that settles it.


Where does the Bible say: "God is a Trinity"

[Father_JD]

Where does the Bible say: "God is a Trinity"

My. The old Mormon game in which if a verse doesn't explicitly state something according to Mormon "judgment" that it should, then somehow the Bible doesn't teach it, etc.

Questions for you figster:

Does the Bible call the Father, "God".

Yes.

Does the Bible call the Son, "God".

Yes.

Does the Bible call the Holy Spirit, "God".

Yes.

Does the Bible teach there is ONLY ONE GOD?

Yes.

There's Trinitarian doctrine staring you right in your face, figmeister! :)

[Snow Patrol]

Russ,

I don't believe I have ever seen a personal affirmation of faith from you. I saw a general one on your website, but it was obviously copied from other websites as I did a quick google search.

Do you have a personal witness or testimony of your faith? And if so, why do you never share it?

Here's your opportunity.

Either we will rip your testimony and your sincere expression of faith to shreds as you watch, ...or we will congratulate you for mustering enough personal courage to share something personal and sacred, even though we may disagree with it.

Lot's of LDS people have opened up to you. Now is your chance to do the same. I'm curious how I and others will respond when or if you do.

It's an invitation, and the ball is in your court.

Thanks.


Fig,

Don't you know that that isn't part of the Christian indoctrination? All they are trained/brainwashed to do is attack and tear down other people's faith and beliefs. I've asked over and over and over for the most perfect Bible believing Christian church out there so that I can investigate and compare their beliefs with mine. Not once have I EVER been told which is the most perfectly, in-line with the Bible, Christian church.

If I were to leave the LDS faith I don't want to waste my time with some "Christian" church only to find out that it is considered heretical or cultish. I want to join up with THE absolute most correct church out there. Since no one has offered up what they believe is the "bestest" Christian church I'm left to think that maybe there isn't one. They are all just "so-so". I've even been told that I don't have to "hook" up with a church at all.

I would also like to encourage Russ, or any other Christian out there, to teach me ALL there is about the gospel they believe in and the faith they have. Maybe they could also inform us which church is the most perfect Biblical Christian church out there.

Thanks

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

My. The old Mormon game in which if a verse doesn't explicitly state something according to Mormon "judgment" that it should, then somehow the Bible doesn't teach it, etc.

Questions for you figster:

Does the Bible call the Father, "God".

Yes.

Does the Bible call the Son, "God".

Yes.

Does the Bible call the Holy Spirit, "God".

Yes.

Does the Bible teach there is ONLY ONE GOD?

Yes.

There's Trinitarian doctrine staring you right in your face, figmeister! :)

JD, I know you can speak for what you believe. I am inviting Russ to do the same. I am inviting him to put forth some person reason for his faith and beliefs. Why he believes what he does, and how he came to accept it. His "conversion story".

I didn't necessarily want to drive him off, or cause him to look to others to speak for himself.

p.s. And your summary of what the Bible says, does nothing to exclude the LDS interpretation of the Godhead, and these 3 divine persons being united in purpose and of one heart and mind.

[SavedbyTruth]

My. The old Mormon game in which if a verse doesn't explicitly state something according to Mormon "judgment" that it should, then somehow the Bible doesn't teach it, etc.

Questions for you figster:

Does the Bible call the Father, "God".

Yes.

Does the Bible call the Son, "God".

Yes.

Does the Bible call the Holy Spirit, "God".

Yes.

Does the Bible teach there is ONLY ONE GOD?

Yes.

There's Trinitarian doctrine staring you right in your face, figmeister! :)

It took the Christian church fathers over 300 years to agree on what they considered ("considered"....NOT "knew") should be the official interpretation of the "godhead". At that time, anyone who didn't agree with them was tossed out.

Your response is incorrect.

SbT

[Russ]

Fig,

Don't you know that that isn't part of the Christian indoctrination? All they are trained/brainwashed to do is attack and tear down other people's faith and beliefs.

Don't take it personally, please.

"Pick up the Bible, compare the religion of the Latter-day Saints, see if it will stand the test." 2nd LDS president Brigham Young.

That's an invitation by an alleged prophet of God to examine LDS theology and to make comparisons.

The LDS religion states that Jesus is the brother of Satan. This cannot be the case. It's my heartfelt hope that you will come to recognize the reasons why. Our Bibles speak volumes about our Lord being God made manifest in the flesh, John 1:1, John 1:14, Col. 2:9.

We will continue to make such comparisons and we will continue to build you up in Jesus Christ by asking you to examine your beliefs and by asking you to look at what the Bible says about our Lord.

Brother of Satan?

Impossible.

[Russ]

It took the Christian church fathers over 300 years to agree on what they considered ("considered"....NOT "knew") should be the official interpretation of the "godhead". At that time, anyone who didn't agree with them was tossed out.

Your response is incorrect.

SbT

His response isn't incorrect.

Our Bibles state that Jesus received worship. He did not admonish them for doing so.

Actually, the LDS ***ertion that the early church fathers developed the Trinity is incorrect. It's there in John 1:1, John 1:14 and Col. 2:9

P.S. The LDS ***ertion that Jesus is "a" god or "another god" is fallacious.

[Russ]

It took the Christian church fathers over 300 years to agree on what they considered ("considered"....NOT "knew") should be the official interpretation of the "godhead". At that time, anyone who didn't agree with them was tossed out.

Your response is incorrect.

SbT

SbT, have you taken note that I've explained by beliefs insofar that Jesus is God? The very God of the universe.

How can this carpenter's son be the very creator of all things?

Kinda whacks out the mind, don't it. It's like, wow.

Imagine a babe from Bethlehem being the one who spoke all things into existence, and then transcended into his own creation. It's like... wow.

[SavedbyTruth]

His response isn't incorrect.

Our Bibles state that Jesus received worship. He did not admonish them for doing so.

Actually, the LDS ***ertion that the early church fathers developed the Trinity is incorrect. It's there in John 1:1, John 1:14 and Col. 2:9

P.S. The LDS ***ertion that Jesus is "a" god or "another god" is fallacious.

Hi Russ,

If I had seen Jesus in the flesh, I would have worshiped Him as well, regardless of His teaching me to pray to His Father (our Heavenly Father). But my prayers would still have been directed to HF. As long as Jesus was walking the earth, I would have worshiped Him as my Savior and Redeemer. The two are separate individuals.

Now that He has returned to HF, I follow His teachings....which is also a way to worship Him. My personal relationship with Jesus grows as I follow His teachings and strive to be more like Him. My love for Him also deepens. I do not pray to Him; however, I DO pray to HF in the name of Jesus Christ.

History is very clear about how the Trinity came to be the official interpretation of the godhead. The LDS Church did not make that up. Even so, 1700 years later, the debate continues about the function of the Trinity. The LDS Church did not make that up either. The fact the main stream Christian church cannot reconcile the problems ***ociated with the Trinity has NOTHING to do with the LDS Church. Trying to distract someone from the real problems with the Trinity merely indicates those problems really do exist.

The Bible is very clear there are three separate beings in the Godhead.

Thank you Russ,

SbT

[Russ]

Hi Russ,

If I had seen Jesus in the flesh, I would have worshiped Him as well, regardless of His teaching me to pray to His Father (our Heavenly Father).

Would you? Would you really? Would you bow down and worship Jesus as the creator of the universe? Would you confess that he is God, the very one and only God made manifest in the flesh?

Let's examine John 1:1, John 1:14 and Col. 2:9 together.

Your thoughts...

P.S. Jesus was prayed to. Do you know the p***age? Let's go there.

[Snow Patrol]

Don't take it personally, please.

"Pick up the Bible, compare the religion of the Latter-day Saints, see if it will stand the test." 2nd LDS president Brigham Young.

That's an invitation by an alleged prophet of God to examine LDS theology and to make comparisons.

The LDS religion states that Jesus is the brother of Satan. This cannot be the case. It's my heartfelt hope that you will come to recognize the reasons why. Our Bibles speak volumes about our Lord being God made manifest in the flesh, John 1:1, John 1:14, Col. 2:9.

We will continue to make such comparisons and we will continue to build you up in Jesus Christ by asking you to examine your beliefs and by asking you to look at what the Bible says about our Lord.

Brother of Satan?

Impossible.

Well I guess I can chock this up to another refusal of a "Christian" to guide the LDS to the most correct Biblical Christian church. Does it really not exist? What are we supposedly comparing the LDS church's teachings to? Russ' interpretation of what the Bible says? Come on, there has to be some Christian Church out there that is 100% correct in every single doctrine of the gospel that Jesus brought. That is the only thing I want to compare the LDS beliefs to, not your interpretation or any other human's.

So Russ, are you ready to compare?

[Russ]

Come on, there has to be some Christian Church out there that is 100% correct in every single doctrine of the gospel that Jesus brought.

Yes, I was built and endowed by my Creator to compare. So were you built such way or you wouldn't be here.

There is no church which is 100% perfect in doctrine as the churches are filled with less than 100% perfect people. Even within Mormonism there's a saying: "People aren't perfect, but the gospel is and the church is true." - or something along those lines.

We do well to pay attention to what God's word says and then compare that to the claims of alleged prophets of God. When such prophets come along saying that Jesus is the brother of Satan we do well to ask questions and compare.

My Bible informs me that it is an utter impossibility that Jesus is any relative of Satan.

My Bible informs me that Jesus is God. John 1:1, John 1:14 and Col. 2:9

[Russ]

And they sought to stone him to death.

Remember the p***age?

If, however, Jesus had claimed to be the brother of Satan and the offspring of God and Mother God, few would have taken notice even as few take notice of such claim today.

I want to compare the LDS claim that Jesus is the brother of Satan.

What did you ask me? Are you ready?

[SavedbyTruth]

Would you? Would you really? Would you bow down and worship Jesus as the creator of the universe? Would you confess that he is God, the very one and only God made manifest in the flesh?

Let's examine John 1:1, John 1:14 and Col. 2:9 together.

Your thoughts...

P.S. Jesus was prayed to. Do you know the p***age? Let's go there.

Hi Russ,

I absolutely would worship Him and confess He is our Lord, our Savior and Redeemer, the only Begotten Son of the Father. I would not be able to stand up in His presence. His glory would overcome me.

I have very often examined the scriptures you referenced, as well as all of the scriptures.

I am convinced there are 3 separate beings. I was convinced while I was a Lutheran.

SbT

[Trinity]

Well I guess I can chock this up to another refusal of a "Christian" to guide the LDS to the most correct Biblical Christian church. Does it really not exist? What are we supposedly comparing the LDS church's teachings to? Russ' interpretation of what the Bible says? Come on, there has to be some Christian Church out there that is 100% correct in every single doctrine of the gospel that Jesus brought. That is the only thing I want to compare the LDS beliefs to, not your interpretation or any other human's.

So Russ, are you ready to compare?

"If you are a Christian you do not have to believe that all the other religions are simply wrong all through. If you are an atheist you do have to beleive that the main point in all the religions of the whole world is simply one huge mistake. If you are a Christian, you are free to think that all these religions, even the *****est ones, contain at least some hint of the truth."

C.S. Lewis
Mere Christianity
bk. ll, chap. 1,
para. 1, p. 43.

What is interesting with the other religions that are not aligned with the core of the orthodoxy is that you do not have to start from nothing.

Trinity

[nrajeff]

There is no church which is 100% perfect in doctrine as the churches are filled with less than 100% perfect people.

--Then pretend someone asks you which church is 99%, or 94%, perfect in doctrine. Can you name one of those for him, so he doesn't get stuck in one that is only, say, 17%? Where is the Master List of Churches, that names each church along with its % ranking? Wouldn't that be a good idea, to have such a list? You'd think a list like that would have been made long ago, like Consumer Reports, where they evaluate different brands of the same product--like a hammer, say--and rank it for quality. Is your church a "Best Buy" Russ? Why haven't the mainstream and Evangelical churches agreed to have such a list made?

[Trinity]

--Then pretend someone asks you which church is 99%, or 94%, perfect in doctrine. Can you name one of those for him, so he doesn't get stuck in one that is only, say, 17%? Where is the Master List of Churches, that names each church along with its % ranking? Wouldn't that be a good idea, to have such a list? You'd think a list like that would have been made long ago, like Consumer Reports, where they evaluate different brands of the same product--like a hammer, say--and rank it for quality. Is your church a "Best Buy" Russ? Why haven't the mainstream and Evangelical churches agreed to have such a list made?

Before establishing a list of churches with a %, we should mention on which criteria we could base this %. :)

Trinity

[Russ]

--Then pretend someone asks you which church is 99%, or 94%, perfect in doctrine. Can you name one of those for him, so he doesn't get stuck in one that is only, say, 17%? Where is the Master List of Churches, that names each church along with its % ranking? Wouldn't that be a good idea, to have such a list? You'd think a list like that would have been made long ago, like Consumer Reports, where they evaluate different brands of the same product--like a hammer, say--and rank it for quality. Is your church a "Best Buy" Russ? Why haven't the mainstream and Evangelical churches agreed to have such a list made?

While essentials of the Christian faith do exist, e.g. the Trinity, only one God, Jesus is that same God, faith through grace and not by a man's works; perfection of theology is not the goal. Perfection only exists in God.

As regarding LDS theology, it denies Christian tenets and attempts to redefine Christian theology.

Rather than Jesus being God in the flesh, LDSism would have us believe that Jesus was born of Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother.

Rather than eternal life being by grace through faith, LDSism would have us believe that eternal life can only be found in LDS ordinances.

Rather than there being only one God who has always been God and who is dependent upon nothing for his existence, LDSism would have us believe that God once wasn't God but "became" God by obedience to LDS ordinances.

Rather than single people receiving eternal life, LDSism would have us believe that only married Mormons can receive eternal life.

Rather than those who call on Jesus' name through faith and belief receiving eternal life, LDSism would have us believe that only those who learn of secret handshakes and secret new names in LDS temples will receive eternal life.

Jeff, the LDS religion is the polar opposite of all things Christian.

[Russ]

Hi Russ,

I absolutely would worship Him and confess He is our Lord, our Savior and Redeemer, the only Begotten Son of the Father. I would not be able to stand up in His presence. His glory would overcome me.

I have very often examined the scriptures you referenced, as well as all of the scriptures.

I am convinced there are 3 separate beings. I was convinced while I was a Lutheran.

SbT

I asked if you would worship Jesus as God made manifest in the flesh; the very one and only God of the universe.

Being Mormon, you cannot. Your response reveals such.

Furthermore, you're dodging genuine LDS theology.

If you were to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth regarding LDS theology, you would acknowledge publicly and inform your readers that "Begotten Son of the Father" means God and Mother God "procreated" Jesus, Satan and all of us as spirit-children.

Same old same old from LDS defenders. Just a little bit of the LDS story. (sigh)

[nrajeff]

Before establishing a list of churches with a %, we should mention on which criteria we could base this %. :)
Trinity

---The churches are free to get together and decide on the criteria. No one is stopping them except themselves.

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

Russ,

It seems as though everything you speak of in regard to your beliefs is tied to the LDS faith in some way. It's almost as if LDS doctrine is the pivot foot for your own beliefs.

I was just asking for a personal reason for your beliefs and your faith. And it would give you credibility of you could try to make your testimony or personal witness stand on its own, rather than relying upon LDS doctrine for it's very definition.

This is your opportunity. We won't make fun of you, even though we may not agree with it. I sincerely would like to know your story.

[Father_JD]

p.s. And your summary of what the Bible says, does nothing to exclude the LDS interpretation of the Godhead, and these 3 divine persons being united in purpose and of one heart and mind.


In reality, it does NOT because you've RE-DEFINED the terms: God, Jesus, Holy Spirit...the meaning of ONE GOD which has been degenerated by Mormonism to mean only "one in purpose".

To be ONE GOD necessarily entails oneness in BEING...way beyond "purpose". The Jews knew only too well what Jesus meant in John 10:30.

[Russ]

Russ,

It seems as though everything you speak of in regard to your beliefs is tied to the LDS faith in some way. It's almost as if LDS doctrine is the pivot foot for your own beliefs.

Not a pivot foot at all. Rather, a topic of discussion, exposure and examination in continued hope and aspiration that Jesus will enter the lives of Mormons and that the Holy Ghost will be allowed to enter LDS temples.


I was just asking for a personal reason for your beliefs and your faith. And it would give you credibility....

I have plenty, thanks.


... if you could try to make your testimony or personal witness stand on its own, rather than relying upon LDS doctrine for it's very definition.

My personal witness doesn't rely on LDS doctrine for it's own definition.


This is your opportunity.

I take many opportunities to describe Christian beliefs. John 1:1, John 1:14 and Col. 2:9 await your response.


We won't make fun of you, even though we may not agree with it. I sincerely would like to know your story.

You're looking at it right now.

[Father_JD]

It took the Christian church fathers over 300 years to agree on what they considered ("considered"....NOT "knew") should be the official interpretation of the "godhead". At that time, anyone who didn't agree with them was tossed out.

Your response is incorrect.

SbT

LOL. Well, just how is my response "incorrect"? Typically "Mormon"...empty ***ertions not backed by squat and founded on IGNORANCE of Christian history and the skewed twistings of LD$, Inc.

They KNEW what they believed. They had to codify WHAT they believed in response to Modalism and Arianism (of which Mormonism is merely a variant). :eek:

[Father_JD]

The Bible is very clear there are three separate beings in the Godhead.


No, three distinctions...three "persons" but NOT SEPARATE BEINGS. That would be TRI-THEISM, so the Bible sez YOU'RE WRONG.

[Father_JD]

Not once have I EVER been told which is the most perfectly, in-line with the Bible, Christian church.


Duh. Why historic and orthodox ANGLICAN churches are, snowster. Read the 39 Articles of Religion for a succint summary of BIBLICAL DOCTRINE...or if you're really patient, the Westiminster Confession.

[Russ]

Duh. Why historic and orthodox ANGLICAN churches are, snowster. Read the 39 Articles of Religion for a succint summary of BIBLICAL DOCTRINE...or if you're really patient, the Westiminster Confession.

Did you mean Western Minister?

Best Western, as a hotel?

Or did you mean Westminster?

Sorry, good fadda. I only point out misspellings when they make me smile.

Trinity recently called Helen Keller, Helen Killer

I told him that she wasn't a murderer to my knowledge. :D

[Father_JD]

Just a typo, Russ. Nothing more!

Yes, WESTMINSTER.

[Russ]

Just a typo, Russ. Nothing more!

Yes, WESTMINSTER.

You're obviously not "perfect" yet, fadda.

I, myself, have never camittted any tipo, ever.

When you coming to AZ? :-)

[Father_JD]

Coming to Arizona, Russ? Probably when I make a road trip through AZ on my way to seeing my brother in L.A.!!

[Russ]

Coming to Arizona, Russ? Probably when I make a road trip through AZ on my way to seeing my brother in L.A.!!

Great!

See you then... next week?

Or, just let me know when you're heading that way. My wife's kids live in Orange Co.

[BigJulie]

Russ,

I don't believe I have ever seen a personal affirmation of faith from you. I saw a general one on your website, but it was obviously copied from other websites as I did a quick google search.

Do you have a personal witness or testimony of your faith? And if so, why do you never share it?

Here's your opportunity.

Either we will rip your testimony and your sincere expression of faith to shreds as you watch, ...or we will congratulate you for mustering enough personal courage to share something personal and sacred, even though we may disagree with it.

Lot's of LDS people have opened up to you. Now is your chance to do the same. I'm curious how I and others will respond when or if you do.

It's an invitation, and the ball is in your court.

Thanks. Did I miss something. I still saw no evidence of this two pages later. I am really wondering where Russ stands with his faith. Where does your faith stand Russ?

I am still waiting for any evangelical, for that matter, from all the postings I have read, to actual state in their own words what they believe and why. I keep hearing talking points, but not anyone's own personal, own words, what they believe, in ways that can be understood, and why.

[SavedbyTruth]

I asked if you would worship Jesus as God made manifest in the flesh; the very one and only God of the universe.

Being Mormon, you cannot. Your response reveals such.

Furthermore, you're dodging genuine LDS theology.

If you were to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth regarding LDS theology, you would acknowledge publicly and inform your readers that "Begotten Son of the Father" means God and Mother God "procreated" Jesus, Satan and all of us as spirit-children.

Same old same old from LDS defenders. Just a little bit of the LDS story. (sigh)

Hi Russ,

I just had an epiphany. If the LDS would cite scriptures and the words of others ONLY and not also add their own personal words, you might be able to identify with their responses.

Somehow you are verbally challenged and refuse to see the LDS who respond to you actually have their own thoughts to share in addition to Biblical references. In fact, every LDS is more than happy to share their joy with others. And they are able to use their own words. I find great comfort in that.

Does your church not allow you to speak for yourself?

You are missing so much Russ. I hope your heart is softened some day.

SbT

[Russ]

Does your church not allow you to speak for yourself?



Exactly!

I only type keystrokes approved by my pastor.

When it comes to driving a car, oy vey, it gets even worse. I can only drive in straight lines, and between the white lines at that. Any turns, left, right, or U, require approval too.

Last week was a real bummer.

I mean, a REAL bummer. You wouldn't believe the predicament.

I had to drive to the store to buy milk. I did the right thing. I took my cell phone with me to make sure that I would have voice contact with the Mother Ship.

I thought for sure the pastor would be in his office to guide me.

I headed out onto the main drag towards the store. I called the pastor at star base Mother Ship to receive authorization to turn left.

The pastor was on vacation!

Can you believe it?!!!

I pulled over to the side of the road, locked the car doors to stay safe, and called for a tow truck.

That was a really, really bad day.

The thinking has been done (http://www.mormondoctrine.net/did_they_really_say_that/thinking_done.htm).

[Pro-Truth]

Fig,

Don't you know that that isn't part of the Christian indoctrination? All they are trained/brainwashed to do is attack and tear down other people's faith and beliefs. I've asked over and over and over for the most perfect Bible believing Christian church out there so that I can investigate and compare their beliefs with mine. Not once have I EVER been told which is the most perfectly, in-line with the Bible, Christian church.

If I were to leave the LDS faith I don't want to waste my time with some "Christian" church only to find out that it is considered heretical or cultish. I want to join up with THE absolute most correct church out there. Since no one has offered up what they believe is the "bestest" Christian church I'm left to think that maybe there isn't one. They are all just "so-so". I've even been told that I don't have to "hook" up with a church at all.

I would also like to encourage Russ, or any other Christian out there, to teach me ALL there is about the gospel they believe in and the faith they have. Maybe they could also inform us which church is the most perfect Biblical Christian church out there.

Thanks

Hi SnowPatrol - nice to see you.

This may be provocative to you: There is absolutely no true Christian "church" on the planet - meaning, no organization, corporation, denomination, non-denominational, nor any building on this planet that is "true" nor the "only true church". None.

There is some good news, though! The only true Church is invisible. Yep! Invisible! In other words, it doesn't contain four walls, a roof, and a floor. The true Church consists of all of the spiritually born again Christians all around the world that have become adopted into the eternal family of God with Jesus Christ as the only High Priest.

So, if you ask: what are church buildings for?

Answer: They exist for the sole purpose to help people come to know the true Jesus Christ so they can hear the Gospel and come to know Him directly, intimately, and personally. The goal is to become born again in Jesus Christ. Once a person is spiritually reborn, they have (present tense) eternal life. Church buildings also are a fantastic place to fellowship with fellow born again Christians and provide for a great resting place from our chaotic world. They also act as an instrument for God to spread the Good News and do philanthropy for giving Him glory (and rightly so).

The key is to come to know Jesus Christ directly, intimately, and personally. To become spiritually reborn (born again) in Jesus Christ. He is the only High Priest and all of the born again Christians all around the world make up the "only true Church".

God is Spirit, right? His "Church" is also; therefore, spiritual.

[SavedbyTruth]

Exactly!

I only type keystrokes approved by my pastor.

When it comes to driving a car, oy vey, it gets even worse. I can only drive in straight lines, and between the white lines at that. Any turns, left, right, or U, require approval too.

Last week was a real bummer.

I mean, a REAL bummer. You wouldn't believe the predicament.

I had to drive to the store to buy milk. I did the right thing. I took my cell phone with me to make sure that I would have voice contact with the Mother Ship.

I thought for sure the pastor would be in his office to guide me.

I headed out onto the main drag towards the store. I called the pastor at star base Mother Ship to receive authorization to turn left.

The pastor was on vacation!

Can you believe it?!!!

I pulled over to the side of the road, locked the car doors to stay safe, and called for a tow truck.

That was a really, really bad day.

The thinking has been done (http://www.mormondoctrine.net/did_they_really_say_that/thinking_done.htm).

Wow Russ,

And you think I am lost.

SbT

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

My personal witness doesn't rely on LDS doctrine for it's own definition.


I've never seen evidence for that.



I take many opportunities to describe Christian beliefs. John 1:1, John 1:14 and Col. 2:9 await your response.


"describe Christian beliefs"?

What about relating your own experience. The reason you find for believing. They reason you are a disciple of Christ. What He has done for you personally? How he has changed you for the better.

All these elements are part of a true Christian's testimony, IMO.

1 Pet. 3: 15
15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:

[Russ]

I've never seen evidence for that.



"describe Christian beliefs"?

What about relating your own experience. The reason you find for believing. They reason you are a disciple of Christ. What He has done for you personally? How he has changed you for the better.

All these elements are part of a true Christian's testimony, IMO.

1 Pet. 3: 15
15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:

Pay closer attention to 10 years of posts which contrast LDS theology with that of Biblical, historic Christianity.

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

Pay closer attention to 10 years of posts which contrast LDS theology with that of Biblical, historic Christianity.

All I really know is what I've read from your past 3 years, Russ. Are you saying that if I go back further, I might find more personal expressions of your 'own' faith, instead of the constant tearing down of another's?

What about today...the here and now?

What about relating your own experience. The reason you find for believing. They reason you are a disciple of Christ. What He has done for you personally? How he has changed you for the better.

All these elements are part of a true Christian's testimony, IMO.

1 Pet. 3: 15
15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:

[Russ]

All I really know is what I've read from your past 3 years, Russ. Are you saying that if I go back further, I might find more personal expressions of your 'own' faith, instead of the constant tearing down of another's?

What about today...the here and now?



What about just last month?

http://www.waltermartin.com/forums/showthread.php?t=210

That's a fantastic vs. from I Pet. that you provided. Love it. :D

Your religion being included in such conversations which disagree that the the LDS church is built on a foundation of Jesus Christ is no doubt distressing for you. I only hope that you'll honestly weigh the evidence. If after reviewing everything you still must remain Mormon, then you that's what you have to do.

The message remains: Jesus is real; He, being God, desires that none should perish (that includes you) and ... Nephites never lived.

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

What about just last month?

http://www.waltermartin.com/forums/showthread.php?t=210

Thanks, Russ. That's a start. I'll post what you wrote a month ago here for the benefit of the readers.
****
Russ wrote:
He's forgiven all my sins.

He's accepted me and made me a child of God.

He's given me His own Spirit to guide me and help me through this life.

He's given me the promise of eternal life lived directly in the presence of God.

****



That's a fantastic vs. from I Pet. that you provided. Love it. :D

Thanks, Russ.

I hope your faith will someday be defined by Jesus Christ, instead of being defined by your anti-ism.


Now, regarding the statement that God has forgiven all your sins: Are you saying that God has already forgiven all your present and futures sins too?

[Snow Patrol]

Russ, is the whole gospel to you? If so, why haven't you given ALL of the information?



He's forgiven all my sins.

Past, present, and future? So you have a license to sin? Please tell everyone that.




He's accepted me and made me a child of God.


How are you ***ured of that? What evidence can we look at to confirm this? Even though you don't fit in with the intellectual legalistic requirements of believing in the Nicean defined Trinity? You don't fit in when you believe that Jesus is the Father incarnate.



He's given me His own Spirit to guide me and help me through this life.


If God made you a new creation, why do you still sin? And how much can you sin before God questions whether you were truly converted?



He's given me the promise of eternal life lived directly in the presence of God.



Come on Russ, you need to give the whole set of beliefs....He's given me the promise of eternal life lived as a featureless humanoid indirectly in the presence of God since God is alreay omnipresent so there is no "special" location that God exists. Aren't you living in the presence of God right now since supposedly He is living in you and all around you?

[Father_JD]

Does your Bible also inform you which church has Jesus Christ as its head?


Ephesians 5:23 (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/eph/5/23#23)


For the husband is the head of the wife,even as Christ is the head of the church:and he is the saviour of the body.



Oh, messy...how many times do you have to be told that Christ's Church is TRANS-DENOMINATIONAL??

Think outside of the Mormon-mind-conditioned "box", dude. :eek:

[Russ]

"He's forgiven all my sins."

Past, present, and future? So you have a license to sin? Please tell everyone that.

A license to sin would be the heresy known as anti-nomiansim (against the law), which has been denounced long ago.


"He's accepted me and made me a child of God."


How are you ***ured of that? What evidence can we look at to confirm this?

I'm soooo glad you asked that question! Yipee

"I have written these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life."

The ***urance of eternal life comes in that moment when a person knows he's born again.


There are four spiritual laws (http://www.mormondoctrine.net/four_spiritual_laws.htm).

May you find peace that you know your sins are forgiven, past present and future and may you find the ***urance of eternal life through Jesus Christ. Amen.

[Snow Patrol]

A license to sin would be the heresy known as anti-nomiansim (against the law), which has been denounced long ago.


So, at what point does continuing to sin not become a "license to sin" but rather shows that one wasn't really "born again"?




"He's accepted me and made me a child of God."


How are you ***ured of that? What evidence can we look at to confirm this?


I'm soooo glad you asked that question! Yipee

"I have written these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life."

The ***urance of eternal life comes in that moment when a person knows he's born again.

Ah, so we are supposed to just take your word for it? Where is the evidence. Where is the verifiable proof that is so well loved by BrianH that shows that you were born again?



Here, you must have forgotten about these questions.




He's given me His own Spirit to guide me and help me through this life.


If God made you a new creation, why do you still sin? And how much can you sin before God questions whether you were truly converted?





He's given me the promise of eternal life lived directly in the presence of God.


Come on Russ, you need to give the whole set of beliefs....He's given me the promise of eternal life lived as a featureless humanoid indirectly in the presence of God since God is alreay omnipresent so there is no "special" location that God exists. Aren't you living in the presence of God right now since supposedly He is living in you and all around you?

[Russ]

If God made you a new creation, why do you still sin?

For the same reason you do, Snow.

Original sin. Sin nature.

Paul asked three times that his thorn be taken. God responded "My grace is sufficient for you."

[nrajeff]

Oh, messy...how many times do you have to be told that Christ's Church is TRANS-DENOMINATIONAL??

--Yeah, that's the mantra you all desperately want to believe--that the artificial big tent that you all agreed includes your favorite churches, just happens to have the exact same boundaries that Jesus Himself would have set if He'd been in charge of drawing them. What are the odds? Nice try, but as Pastor H.E. Fos**** (gotta love that auto-censoring of a Protestant pastor's name) said, If Jesus were to return today and see what p***es for Christianity, He'd wonder whether He Himself were a Christian.

[Snow Patrol]

For the same reason you do, Snow.

Original sin. Sin nature.

Paul asked three times that his thorn be taken. God responded "My grace is sufficient for you."


Are you ignoring the rest of my questions? Bulldog from CARM hates it when LDS do that? To bad he isn't here to witness this.

"For the same reason you do?" So are you admitting that I'm saved? I thought you became a new creation in Christ and the old one went away?

[nrajeff]

If God made you a new creation, why do you still sin? And how much can you sin before God questions whether you were truly converted?

--Well, according to the Bible, this is the answer, apparently:

1 John 3:9 (Young's Literal Translation)
9very one who hath been begotten of God, sin he doth not, because his seed in him doth remain, and he is not able to sin, because of God he hath been begotten.

[Russ]

Are you ignoring the rest of my questions? Bulldog from CARM hates it when LDS do that? To bad he isn't here to witness this.

"For the same reason you do?" So are you admitting that I'm saved? I thought you became a new creation in Christ and the old one went away?


lol, SNOW! You guys are amazing. From this to that to other topics all around the block. "Are you saying I'm saved?" Where did that come from? (Never mind.)

You asked me why I still sin.

Because of sin nature, the same sin nature which plagues all of us.

It's been fun. Back to Mormonism......

[Snow Patrol]

Actually, I'd like some answers before we move on.....


So, at what point does continuing to sin not become a "license to sin" but rather shows that one wasn't really "born again"?



Ah, so we are supposed to just take your word for it? Where is the evidence. Where is the verifiable proof that is so well loved by BrianH that shows that you were born again?



And how much can you sin before God questions whether you were truly converted?




Come on Russ, you need to give the whole set of beliefs....He's given me the promise of eternal life lived as a featureless humanoid indirectly in the presence of God since God is alreay omnipresent so there is no "special" location that God exists. Aren't you living in the presence of God right now since supposedly He is living in you and all around you?

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

Russ, maybe you missed this, but I asked:

Are you saying that God has already forgiven all your present and futures sins too?

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

Bump.

Russ, maybe you missed this, but I asked:

Are you saying that God has already forgiven all your present and futures sins too?

[Father_JD]

In that gentile Christianity in its worship forms are radically different from 1st Century Jewish practice, I'd say YES, jeff...he'd have a hard time trying to discern the Jewishiness of most churches services.

That MEANS, jeff...Jesus wouldn't recognize ANYTHING from a polytheistic Mormon service!!

[Father_JD]

--Well, according to the Bible, this is the answer, apparently:

1 John 3:9 (Young's Literal Translation)
9very one who hath been begotten of God, sin he doth not, because his seed in him doth remain, and he is not able to sin, because of God he hath been begotten.

So jeff, how does one harmonize that verse with John's OTHER teaching that "if one says he is without sin, he is a LIAR"??

Now think, jeff...think really hard what John MUST have meant in your "proof-text". :eek:

[nrajeff]

So jeff, how does one harmonize that verse with John's OTHER teaching that "if one says he is without sin, he is a LIAR"??


--Simple:

1. If you say have never sinned, you are a liar because all normal humans, by the time they have reached teen-ager status, will have sinned and therefore are NOT 'without sin.'

2. Those who are TRULY born again and stay that way, STOP sinning.

Conclusion: There are a whole lotta Christians who need to stop claiming they truly have born-again status.

[Snow Patrol]

Actually, I'd like some answers before we move on.....


So, at what point does continuing to sin not become a "license to sin" but rather shows that one wasn't really "born again"?



Ah, so we are supposed to just take your word for it? Where is the evidence. Where is the verifiable proof that is so well loved by BrianH that shows that you were born again?



And how much can you sin before God questions whether you were truly converted?




Come on Russ, you need to give the whole set of beliefs....He's given me the promise of eternal life lived as a featureless humanoid indirectly in the presence of God since God is alreay omnipresent so there is no "special" location that God exists. Aren't you living in the presence of God right now since supposedly He is living in you and all around you?


Bump for Russ.

[Russ]

Bump for Russ.

http://www.waltermartin.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3772#poststop

[Russ]

Bump.

Russ, maybe you missed this, but I asked:

Are you saying that God has already forgiven all your present and futures sins too?

http://www.waltermartin.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3772#poststop

[nrajeff]

Isn't anybody gonna bump for ME? I feel left out. :(:(:(

[Russ]

Isn't anybody gonna bump for ME? I feel left out. :(:(:(


Okay, bump for you too....

http://www.simplesignshop.com/images/150/speed_bump_sign.jpg

No, I'm bumpin' you.

Uh-uh, bump for you.

Double bumps.

Do I hear three?

Who will give me three?

I now have three, who will give me four?

Do I have four?

Going once, twice, SOLD, to the lady in the polka dot dress in the third row....

[SavedbyTruth]

Okay, bump for you too....

http://www.simplesignshop.com/images/150/speed_bump_sign.jpg

No, I'm bumpin' you.

Uh-uh, bump for you.

Double bumps.

Do I hear three?

Who will give me three?

I now have three, who will give me four?

Do I have four?

Going once, twice, SOLD, to the lady in the polka dot dress in the third row....

Russ just used another diversionary tactic!! :eek:

[Father_JD]

--Simple:

1. If you say have never sinned, you are a liar because all normal humans, by the time they have reached teen-ager status, will have sinned and therefore are NOT 'without sin.'

2. Those who are TRULY born again and stay that way, STOP sinning.

Conclusion: There are a whole lotta Christians who need to stop claiming they truly have born-again status.

Almost correct, jeff. Except children SIN long before they're teenagers because we're ALL BORN INTO A SINFUL CONDITION.

Now, we need to look at your second point: You're suggesting that the truly born again will STOP sinning in an absolute way if I'm getting you're drift, right?

Care to clarify?? :D

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

http://www.waltermartin.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3772#poststop

This didn't answer my question.

Are you saying that God has already forgiven all your present and futures sins too?

[Pro-Truth]

This didn't answer my question.

Are you saying that God has already forgiven all your present and futures sins too?

When a person becomes spiritually born again by Jesus Christ, they become justified before God. Therefore, being justified, a born again Christian's past, present, and future sins are forgiven. So, the answer is yes.

A born again Christian completely byp***es judgment and enters God's eternal Kingdom immediately after their human body dies.

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

When a person becomes spiritually born again by Jesus Christ, they become justified before God. Therefore, being justified, a born again Christian's past, present, and future sins are forgiven. So, the answer is yes.

A born again Christian completely byp***es judgment and enters God's eternal Kingdom immediately after their human body dies.



I'm hoping Russ can answer for himself.

[Russ]

I'm hoping Russ can answer for himself.

Oh, my.

A bit of condescension rears its ugly head.

PT's answer looks good, Biblically speaking.

[nrajeff]

Almost correct, jeff. Except children SIN long before they're teenagers because we're ALL BORN INTO A SINFUL CONDITION.

---In all likelihood, they sin way before they hit 13, but I gave them the benefit of the doubt.


Now, we need to look at your second point: You're suggesting that the truly born again will STOP sinning in an absolute way if I'm getting you're drift, right?

--I am not suggesting it, I am just quoting what the Bible says.

[Pro-Truth]

---In all likelihood, they sin way before they hit 13, but I gave them the benefit of the doubt.

Psalm 51:5 clearly teaches that we have sinful nature from birth: "Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me".


--I am not suggesting it, I am just quoting what the Bible says.

There is an enormous difference between having a sinful nature and actually sinning.

A sinful nature is what all human beings have. We are born with it, just as Psalm 51:5 says above. Fortunately, because of Jesus Christ, once a person becomes spiritually born again, their sinful nature is covered by His blood; therefore, making the believer justified before God.

The actual act of sinning is still going to occur whether or not a person is covered by the blood of Christ or not. Think of the blood of Jesus being sort of like putting a band aid on cancer... Sure, the band aid covers the cancer, but, it doesn't mean the cancer isn't still under the band aid.

Once a born again Christian's human body dies, they receive a new glorified spiritual body - a perfect body. With that body, sin is impossible while in Heaven. Our current human bodies need the blood of Christ so we become justified before God - our sinful nature needs to be covered even though our individual sinful nature exists.

Does that make sense?

[Father_JD]

Quote:
Now, we need to look at your second point: You're suggesting that the truly born again will STOP sinning in an absolute way if I'm getting you're drift, right?


--I am not suggesting it, I am just quoting what the Bible says.

It's your application of the text which I'm questioning, jeff. Are you suggesting that anyone truly born again NEVER sins after regeneration?

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

I'm hoping Russ can answer for himself.

Russ?

Can you answer for yourself? Do you believe your are already forgiven in advance for all present and future sins?

[Father_JD]

Russ?

Can you answer for yourself? Do you believe your are already forgiven in advance for all present and future sins?

The question really is:

Is one fully justified in Christ or NOT? You're suggesting that justification is an iffy thing, i.e. ya got it one day, and don't the next. :eek:

[nrajeff]

Maybe the question should be: What, exactly, gets justified?

a) The sins the person committed up to that point.

b) All the sins you will commit in the future.

c) Both a) and b).

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

The question really is:

Is one fully justified in Christ or NOT? You're suggesting that justification is an iffy thing, i.e. ya got it one day, and don't the next. :eek:

I was hoping Russ would take advantage of this opportunity and provide his own answer.

Thanks though. I liked Jeff's idea of justification. It seems more in keeping with the character of a Just God who will not be mocked.

[Pro-Truth]

Maybe the question should be: What, exactly, gets justified?

a) The sins the person committed up to that point.

b) All the sins you will commit in the future.

c) Both a) and b).

When a person becomes spiritually born again by Jesus Christ, their entire sinful nature is covered by His blood. Therefore, a born again believer's past, present, and future sins are forgiven.

[nrajeff]

Psalm 51:5 clearly teaches that we have sinful nature from birth: "Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me".

---Holman Christian Standard Bible puts it:
Indeed, I was guilty [when I] was born;
I was sinful when my mother conceived me

I find that hard to believe. What sin was David guilty of at the time of his birth?


There is an enormous difference between having a sinful nature and actually sinning.

---I tend to agree, but I still can't believe that God would make life anything but innocent. All my Christian Pro-Life literature calls abortions the killing of INNOCENT life, and I believe them.

[SavedbyTruth]

When a person becomes spiritually born again by Jesus Christ, their entire sinful nature is covered by His blood. Therefore, a born again believer's past, present, and future sins are forgiven.

Hi Pro-Truth,

Where you say a born again believer's past, present, and future sins are forgiven; do you still need to repent for present and future sins?

Thank you,

SbT

[Pro-Truth]

---Holman Christian Standard Bible puts it:
Indeed, I was guilty [when I] was born;
I was sinful when my mother conceived me

I find that hard to believe. What sin was David guilty of at the time of his birth?



---I tend to agree, but I still can't believe that God would make life anything but innocent. All my Christian Pro-Life literature calls abortions the killing of INNOCENT life, and I believe them.

lol, Jeff....so, this is where you disagree with the Bible?

There is a simple explanation: every person on the planet is born with a sinful nature. That's all there is to it!

All people are separated from God because of their sinful nature - all people. However, Jesus Christ bridges the gap between sin and God. His blood covers a born again believer's sinful nature; therefore, justifying him/her before God. It's that simple!

Jesus is the answer - not any religious organization of any kind.

[Pro-Truth]

Hi Pro-Truth,

Where you say a born again believer's past, present, and future sins are forgiven; do you still need to repent for present and future sins?

Thank you,

SbT

Of course! Repentance is not required to obtain eternal life, of course, but, a born again believer will automatically repent for their sins.

[nrajeff]

lol, Jeff....so, this is where you disagree with the Bible?

---Well, do you agree with the Bible where it says that *** literally guided widows from the moment of his birth? (*** 31:18) I prefer to take it less than literally, so it does not result in absurdity--as in that *** was taking care of widows from the time he was old enough and able to do so. Ditto the exaggeration in Psalm 51. But feel free to check out the good explanation I found at Christian Courier and tell me if they are disagreeing with the Bible. :D

christiancourier.com/articles/793-does-psalm-58-teach-original-sin


Jesus is the answer - not any religious organization of any kind.

--But left on our own, what kind of consistent answer would we see in Jesus? Each person would come up with different Jesuses, and no two Jesuses would be the same...

[Father_JD]

Maybe the question should be: What, exactly, gets justified?

a) The sins the person committed up to that point.

b) All the sins you will commit in the future.

c) Both a) and b).


jeff, sins are NOT what's "justified". It's the PERSON who is forensically "justified" in the sight of God. :rolleyes:

[Father_JD]

You can like jeff's idea all you like...just know it's in ERROR. Sins aren't "justified", people ARE.

[nrajeff]

jeff, sins are NOT what's "justified". It's the PERSON who is forensically "justified" in the sight of God. :rolleyes:

--Okay, so (this gets more convoluted as we go): You feel that people can be justified without their sins being justified? What good does that do a person?

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

--Okay, so (this gets more convoluted as we go): You feel that people can be justified without their sins being justified? What good does that do a person?

Jeff, I think for me the question that Father JD should address is this:

Will God justify a person justified IN his sins, or FROM his sins?

[Father_JD]

Jeff, I think for me the question that Father JD should address is this:

Will God justify a person justified IN his sins, or FROM his sins?

It's NOT a question of being "justified" or not in either. :rolleyes:

[nrajeff]

Do your parishioners ask as perplexing questions as we ask you? Just wondering how far "out there" our questions are compared to what you get from your own congregation.

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

It's NOT a question of being "justified" or not in either. :rolleyes:

I would hope that if God justifies someone, they are pardoned from their sins. But it is entirely different things to be pardoned 'from' sin as opposed to being pardoned 'in' sin.

[Father_JD]

I would hope that if God justifies someone, they are pardoned from their sins. But it is entirely different things to be pardoned 'from' sin as opposed to being pardoned 'in' sin.

That was my whole point, figster: Your equivocation from "justification" to pardon of sins.

Although vitally linked, the two are NOT THE SAME THING as you're trying to make them. :rolleyes:

[Father_JD]

Do your parishioners ask as perplexing questions as we ask you? Just wondering how far "out there" our questions are compared to what you get from your own congregation.

LOL. Don't flatter yourself that they're that "perplexing", but because of Mormon indoctrination which is so at odds with Christian doctrine, you're bound to ask (ahem!) more interesting questions than my parishioners usually did. :D

[nrajeff]

LOL. Don't flatter yourself that they're that "perplexing",

--I didn't mean it that way. I was wondering whether they asked questions that were as "weird-seeming" to you--not whether they asked questions that challenged your beliefs as much.


but because of Mormon indoctrination which is so at odds with Christian doctrine, you're bound to ask (ahem!) more interesting questions than my parishioners usually did.

---If you'd care to provide contact info on your congregants, I could help them come up with more "interesting" questions to ask you, if they aren't interesting enough for you...Don't want you to succumb to ennui, you know... :)

[Father_JD]

LOL. Ri-i-i-ight. Thanks anyway, jeff.

Btw...I have no parishioners presently. I'm working as a ful-time hospital chaplain in the Medical Center, Houston. :D

[nrajeff]

LOL. Ri-i-i-ight. Thanks anyway, jeff.
Btw...I have no parishioners presently. I'm working as a ful-time hospital chaplain in the Medical Center, Houston. :D

---Interesting. If I am ever in the area I will stop by the hospital and say hi.

[Father_JD]

There are over a dozen hospitals in the Medical Center. Should you come to Houston, I will email you privately at which hospital I work.

[nrajeff]

OK, thanks!

[Mesenja]

Jesus is the answer-not any religious organization of any kind.

This false theory just proves that we can't just pick up the Bible and read it and expect to come up up with a knowledge of the truth that is necessary for our salvation.

“So Philip ran to him,and heard him reading Isaiah the prophet,and asked,"Do you understand what you are reading?" And he said, "How can I,unless some one guides me?" And he invited Philip to come up and sit with him. Now the p***age of the scripture which he was reading was this:"As a sheep led to the slaughter or a lamb before its shearer is dumb,so he opens not his mouth. In his humiliation justice was denied him.Who can describe his generation? For his life is taken up from the earth." And the eunuch said to Philip,"About whom, pray, does the prophet say this,about himself or about some one else?" Then Philip opened his mouth,and beginning with this scripture he told him the good news of Jesus.” Acts 8:30-35

[Father_JD]

This was BEFORE the NT was inscripturated. But please note that God sent Philip to explain this to him. He didn't "pray" one way or another for theological truth.

[Mesenja]

This was BEFORE the New Testament was inscripturated,Mesenja. But please note that God sent Philip to explain this to him. He didn't "pray" one way or another for theological truth.

The burden of proof is still on you to provide proof that supports this Protestant presupposition. Where in the Bible does it tell us that the doctrine of Sola Scriptura will become “operational” after the period of enscripturation is over?

[Mesenja]

Uh,the text itself proves it,Mesenja. Funny,you don't have the eunuch "praying" to know what it means,but you dO have Phillip explaining it to him, don't you? Christians are exhorted to TEST all things. Not "pray" about them. Why? Because God knows how easily DECEIVED people can be...hey! Just like you are!!!

You don't have the eunuch opening up the Bible and having the Holy Spirit guide him to a correct understanding of the scriptures either. That's why if you put two theologians in the same room together you get three different opinions. Where are the modern day Phillips?

[nrajeff]

I have several modern-day Phillips in my toolbox, as well as a couple of screwdrivers for slotted screws :D

[Father_JD]

I have several modern-day Phillips in my toolbox, as well as a couple of screwdrivers for slotted screws :D

Another two points for the jeffster! Well done! :D

[Mesenja]

Oh,Messy...how many times do you have to be told that Christ's Church is TRANS-DENOMINATIONAL??

Think outside of the Mormon-mind-conditioned "box",dude. :eek:

How many times are you going to resort to juvenile name calling? The name I used for this forum is Mesenja. I guess the chances of you growing up and using my proper forum name would be never wouldn't it?

The Bible speaks only of one flock not many. Also Paul spoke of the church as the metaphorical body of Christ. He spoke of only one body,one faith,and one Lord. Not the thousands of trans-denominational bodies that this false doctrine would entail.

[James Banta]

How many times are you going to resort to juvenile name calling? The name I used for this forum is Mesenja. I guess that would be never wouldn't it?

The Bible speaks only of one flock not many. Also Paul spoke of the church as the metaphorical body of Christ. He spoke of only one body,one faith,and one Lord. Not the thousands of trans-denominational bodies that this false doctrine would entail.


Do you all go to the same Ward? Are there not different Stakes all over the church? Have you come to a unity of your faith? I have been witnessing to the LDS for many years now.. I have heard so many different idea's of salvation I gave up trying to find a connection in what mormons believe must be done to gain eternal life.. So say be baptized, others say more in needed like marriage, and still other say plural marriage is required. Some tech that salvation is a goal that can only be reached at judgment, others say it's possible to know in this life.. Some teach that sin can be forgiven Once but if you sin a second time ****ation follows..

I have talked to most if not all the Christians I have seen on this site.. We have exchanged out faith in Christ.. We believe that He is our Salvation.. That we are saved NOW not in a distant future. We believe that this salvation come by God's grace through faith in Jesus plus NOTHING.. I have never asked any of these my brothers and sisters what church they belong to, I DON'T CARE.. The question is "Are you His child through His grace by faith?" That is all that matters.. In short We have come to a Unity of the Faith.. Denominations are not what makes us Christian, they can't save. They can give us a place to worship Him where we feel His Spirit better than the others. I personally don't like the Rock church.. I am an old stick in the mud grandpa.. I like the old Hymns the quite contemplative worship.. Not that I also don't enjoy the praise times but a whole meeting of that would not suite me.. I know other disagree with that and it's OK.. The central message remains the same.. IT'S ALL ABOUT JESUS!!! Surely the Church has come to a unity of our faith, mormonism has NOT... IHS jim

[Jill]

General Reminder and Warning:

Please refer to other members of the board by their correct usernames. Anything else will be considered baiting and you will be warned.

Thank you!

[Jill]

Fig-bearing Thistle, you wrote, "Either we will rip your testimony and your sincere expression of faith to shreds as you watch, ...or we will congratulate you for mustering enough personal courage to share something personal and sacred, even though we may disagree with it."

No one will "rip" anyone's testimony and their "sincere expression of faith to shreds"--LDS or Christian--it simply will not be tolerated.

And if someone tries it, I would like to know about it.

We may disagree theologically but the bottom line is we care about the souls of our brothers and sisters or none of us would be here talking, would we?

So, there will be no "ripping" of anyone's faith to shreds on this board. Why should that even be necessary? Logical, fair arguments based on historical and theological points are always the best choice. Once anger enters the picture people stop listening and resort to fighting--not a good scenario and one we hope to avoid here.

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

Fig-bearing Thistle, you wrote, "Either we will rip your testimony and your sincere expression of faith to shreds as you watch, ...or we will congratulate you for mustering enough personal courage to share something personal and sacred, even though we may disagree with it."

No one will "rip" anyone's testimony and their "sincere expression of faith to shreds"--LDS or Christian--it simply will not be tolerated.

And if someone tries it, I would like to know about it.

We may disagree theologically but the bottom line is we care about the souls of our brothers and sisters or none of us would be here talking, would we?

So, there will be no "ripping" of anyone's faith to shreds on this board. Why should that even be necessary? Logical, fair arguments based on historical and theological points are always the best choice. Once anger enters the picture people stop listening and resort to fighting--not a good scenario and one we hope to avoid here.

Thanks, Jill. This is re-***uring. WM is a far better atmosphere than CARM.

[Mesenja]

Do you all go to the same Ward? Are there not different Stakes all over the church? Have you come to a unity of your faith? I have been witnessing to the LDS for many years now.. I have heard so many different idea's of salvation I gave up trying to find a connection in what Mormons believe must be done to gain eternal life.. So say be baptized,others say more in needed like marriage,and still other say plural marriage is required. Some teach that salvation is a goal that can only be reached at judgment,others say it's possible to know in this life.. Some teach that sin can be forgiven Once but if you sin a second time ****ation follows..

I have talked to most if not all the Christians I have seen on this site.. We have exchanged out faith in Christ.. We believe that He is our Salvation.. That we are saved NOW not in a distant future. We believe that this salvation come by God's grace through faith in Jesus plus NOTHING.. I have never asked any of these my brothers and sisters what church they belong to, I DON'T CARE.. The question is "Are you His child through His grace by faith?" That is all that matters.. In short We have come to a Unity of the Faith.. Denominations are not what makes us Christian, they can't save. They can give us a place to worship Him where we feel His Spirit better than the others. I personally don't like the Rock church.. I am an old stick in the mud grandpa.. I like the old Hymns the quite contemplative worship.. Not that I also don't enjoy the praise times but a whole meeting of that would not suite me.. I know other disagree with that and it's OK.. The central message remains the same.. IT'S ALL ABOUT JESUS!!! Surely the Church has come to a unity of our faith,Mormonism has NOT... IHS Jim



And when you have finished doing that please show us where in the Bible is there an index of essential and non essential doctrines.:)

[nrajeff]

In reply to Jim's questions:


Do you all go to the same Ward? Are there not different Stakes all over the church? Have you come to a unity of your faith?

No matter what ward you attend on a given Sunday, the teachings will be far more uniform and consistent with all the other wards than what you find out in Evangelicalland, Jim. In fact, one complaint from antis is that our teachings are TOO uniform--they say it's weird how the teaching curriculum comes from central leadership (the apostles) and is followed all over the world. They say it's not how Jesus would run His church. And yet here you are, implying that we aren't consistent enough? Pray tell how much more consistent you expect Christ's church to be.

And to answer your other question: No, the LDS have NOT come to the degree of unity of the faith that St. Paul mentioned was the goal for Christ's church. (Eph. 4) That's why we still believe that apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, and evangelists are needed in the church: It has NOT "attained to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ." We have NOT yet stopped being "infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and ****n here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of men in their deceitful scheming." We are not yet "speaking the truth in love in all things" and "grown up into him who is the Head, that is, Christ." One sign that we have not yet reached that unity of faith is the fact that we still need and have prophets and apostles. Someday, when Christianity "grows up" to the extent that Paul hoped for the church, then it will become unnecessary to call apostles and prophets to tell us what God wants us to do, because we will have become sufficiently spiritually mature that we won't need them.

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

In reply to Jim's questions:



No matter what ward you attend on a given Sunday, the teachings will be far more uniform and consistent with all the other wards than what you find out in Evangelicalland, Jim. In fact, one complaint from antis is that our teachings are TOO uniform--they say it's weird how the teaching curriculum comes from central leadership (the apostles) and is followed all over the world. They say it's not how Jesus would run His church. And yet here you are, implying that we aren't consistent enough? Pray tell how much more consistent you expect Christ's church to be.

And to answer your other question: No, the LDS have NOT come to the degree of unity of the faith that St. Paul mentioned was the goal for Christ's church. (Eph. 4) That's why we still believe that apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, and evangelists are needed in the church: It has NOT "attained to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ." We have NOT yet stopped being "infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and ****n here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of men in their deceitful scheming." We are not yet "speaking the truth in love in all things" and "grown up into him who is the Head, that is, Christ." One sign that we have not yet reached that unity of faith is the fact that we still need and have prophets and apostles. Someday, when Christianity "grows up" to the extent that Paul hoped for the church, then it will become unnecessary to call apostles and prophets to tell us what God wants us to do, because we will have become sufficiently spiritually mature that we won't need them.

Very well stated, Jeff. You cannot achieve unity of the faith w/o Apostles, Prophets, etc. Though some may think they can do it with strictly evangelists.:)

[alanmolstad]

Russ,

I don't believe I have ever seen a personal affirmation of faith from you.


Im going though the many posts on this topic...but right off the bat this first comment reads very personal.....
I like the way fig has not attacked anyone here, but left the door open for more conversation...

it also is interesting that fig actually seems to know and care a great deal about some very personal matters concerning Russ.....

[James Banta]

Im going though the many posts on this topic...but right off the bat this first comment reads very personal.....
I like the way fig has not attacked anyone here, but left the door open for more conversation...

it also is interesting that fig actually seems to know and care a great deal about some very personal matters concerning Russ.....

Russ doesn't post here any more. To meet him go to http://forums.carm.org/vbb/forumdisplay.php?63-Mormonism-%28LDS%29 IHS jim

[alanmolstad]

Im going though the many posts on this topic...but right off the bat this first comment reads very personal.....
I like the way fig has not attacked anyone here, but left the door open for more conversation...

it also is interesting that fig actually seems to know and care a great deal about some very personal matters concerning Russ.....


Just today this topic was suggested for us to review, and so i have just finished going over the posts by Fig recorded here.

And I think that these posts by fig are the very BEST EXAMPLE OF GOOD MANNERS I have yet seen from anyone!
from start to finish I look at Fig's posts and see a calm person, a witty person, a person with clearly strong religious views but who is never being blinded by them into being rude to others who disagree with him.

I think this topic is something that people should refer others to as a lesson in "How to disagree with cl***"

Fig shows a lot of cl*** here....

[neverending]

Just today this topic was suggested for us to review, and so i have just finished going over the posts by Fig recorded here.

And I think that these posts by fig are the very BEST EXAMPLE OF GOOD MANNERS I have yet seen from anyone!
from start to finish I look at Fig's posts and see a calm person, a witty person, a person with clearly strong religious views but who is never being blinded by them into being rude to others who disagree with him.

I think this topic is something that people should refer others to as a lesson in "How to disagree with cl***"

Fig shows a lot of cl*** here....

Since Fig has p***ed on to his just rewards, then I say high time we move on and talk about something else. He hadn't been posting here for some time and of course he can't come back and respond to anything now. Eternity is a very, very long time and he was told over and over again the true gospel of Jesus Christ. He chose NOT to accept that gospel but to embrace a lie and a cult. Knowing that what is taught in the Holy Scriptures is true, it is sad to say that Fig is not with God.

[alanmolstad]

I think, (being that I just learned of his death this week), that I would enjoy hearing of others who might have also noticed that Fig was one of the few voices that was never rude that posted on this forum.
So yes perhaps I might make a new topic when I get some free time next week, where people might be encouraged to remember him and share experiences...

Seems a fitting way to remember a member of this message board that has now p***ed on.

[James Banta]

I think, (being that I just learned of his death this week), that I would enjoy hearing of others who might have also noticed that Fig was one of the few voices that was never rude that posted on this forum.
So yes perhaps I might make a new topic when I get some free time next week, where people might be encouraged to remember him and share experiences...

Seems a fitting way to remember a member of this message board that has now p***ed on.

And yet Fig did call others uneducated.. Yes it is a mild attack but still personal.. Was he speaking of a person that posts here without opportunity to become educated? No the net is filled with LDS teachings and sites that are pro LDS.. That leaves lazy? Are all those that are uneducated in the ways and teaching of mormonism lazy? Isn't that what Fig was saying? Is that kind, was that respectful without being rude? So was he really never rude? That is a statement given to eulogize a fallen friend not a look at his real life.. IHS jim

[TrueBlue?]

Psalm 51:5 clearly teaches that we have sinful nature from birth: "Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me".





Gotta love the atonement.

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
(Rom 5:18-19 KJV)

That verse no longer applies for us, Christ paid the price for Adams sin which we are no longer held accountable for.

[alanmolstad]

And yet Fig did call others uneducated.. ...if that's the worst comment a guy is known for after years and years of debates?.....if thats it?...if thats all you got?

Let me ask you something...
Where are the real nasty comments that Fig must have made?

I mean from you guy's reaction to my few words about my memory of Fig you must be thinking of tons and tons of truly nasty comments that Fig must have made to get you guys so worked up like this right?

Surly you can point out tons of Fig's posts that are profane to justify the way you carry on so?

[RealFakeHair]

Gotta love the atonement.

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
(Rom 5:18-19 KJV)

That verse no longer applies for us, Christ paid the price for Adams sin which we are no longer held accountable for.

Many, but not you. lol

[TrueBlue?]

Many, but not you. lol

Are you saying some could have been saved without Christ's atonement?

[RealFakeHair]

Are you saying some could have been saved without Christ's atonement?

Father Abraham?

[TrueBlue?]

Father Abraham?Really? He did not need Christ to go to Heaven?

[James Banta]

Really? He did not need Christ to go to Heaven?

He needed God.. It was through believing God that Abraham was made righteous (Genesis 15:6) and who is God? (John 1:1).. IHS jim

[TrueBlue?]

He needed God.. It was through believing God that Abraham was made righteous (Genesis 15:6) and who is God? (John 1:1).. IHS jim

I was asking RealFakeHair, he stated Father Abraham did not need Jesus. I am trying to understand how Father Abraham broke down the gates of hell himself without Christ to get to heaven.

[James Banta]

I was asking RealFakeHair, he stated Father Abraham did not need Jesus. I am trying to understand how Father Abraham broke down the gates of hell himself without Christ to get to heaven.

You should check with Hair again and make sure you are on the same page with him. I have never seem him say anything that unbiblical before.. IHS jim

[TrueBlue?]

You should check with Hair again and make sure you are on the same page with him. I have never seem him say anything that unbiblical before.. IHS jim

Thats why I said I was asking RealFakeHair. Do you even try to keep up with whats been posted?

[RealFakeHair]

Thats why I said I was asking RealFakeHair. Do you even try to keep up with whats been posted?

Now, now lets all get along. I think we all sometimes ***ume to much, or maybe drink to much. Maybe they are one in the same. As far as Father Abraham needing Jesus; don't we all.

[James Banta]

Thats why I said I was asking RealFakeHair. Do you even try to keep up with whats been posted?

Do I read every post? No, do you? I do respond when I believe two people are not understanding each other and try to get it worked out.. That is all I was doing here.. IHS jim

[TrueBlue?]

Do I read every post? No, do you? I do respond when I believe two people are not understanding each other and try to get it worked out.. That is all I was doing here.. IHS jim

Of course not, and the ones I have not read I do not interject myself into. How can you bring understanding to something that you haven't read yourself? If you haven't read it, then how is it your supposed to understand? Do you see the issue yet? Alright then. I appreciate your intentions, but maybe understanding first would go along way in your desire to help to people understand what it is your not understanding.

[TrueBlue?]

Now, now lets all get along. I think we all sometimes ***ume to much, or maybe drink to much. Maybe they are one in the same. As far as Father Abraham needing Jesus; don't we all.

Getting along fine. I think due to his answer that was a legitimate question. No anger, just dumbfoundness. Anywho. I see your not willing to debate on a real level here. Sorry for that mistake.

[RealFakeHair]

Getting along fine. I think due to his answer that was a legitimate question. No anger, just dumbfoundness. Anywho. I see your not willing to debate on a real level here. Sorry for that mistake.
First rule in debating is not to ***ume. Second rule is to know the other guys answer before you ask the question.
Third rule is to, oh shoot I forgot the third rule....

[TrueBlue?]

First rule in debating is not to ***ume. Second rule is to know the other guys answer before you ask the question.
Third rule is to, oh shoot I forgot the third rule....

Third rule. if wrong about answer refer to rule # 1. :)

[RealFakeHair]

Third rule. if wrong about answer refer to rule # 1. :)
yeah, that's it.

[alanmolstad]

Life's rules...

Rule #1 - Never p*** up an opportunity to go to the bathroom.

Rule #2 - Never break Rule #1 or else.

Rule #3 - The shortest distance between two points is not a straight line, rather it's the time between a guy first learning how to do something, and then trying to show-off doing it.

[RealFakeHair]

Life's rules...

Rule #1 - Never p*** up an opportunity to go to the bathroom.

Rule #2 - Never break Rule #1 or else.

Rule #3 - The shortest distance between two points is not a straight line, rather it's the time between a guy first learning how to do something, and then trying to show-off doing it.
You must have watch me play golf Monday!

[alanmolstad]

Do I read every post? No, do you?

I give each post about 5 seconds to entertain me....then I decide if the poster is worth reading?...
has addressed me personally?..
has posted something interesting and with good manners?

Or...

..is a wanker and not worth dealing with?....
or is one of them guys who only gets to type on their mom's computer when she is not looking?

[jdjhere]

I still see a few familiar posters here. Not many people here anymore though!

[alanmolstad]

I still see a few familiar posters here. Not many people here anymore though!we are kinda a intimate group to be sure.....

[jdjhere]

I have always come to this site to ask questions or share. I tried going to CARM but it seemed confusing to me. I have not been here for awhile and saw that Fig p***ed away? Wow.

[alanmolstad]

The advantage of a smaller room is that you can take the time you need...

You can listen and ask questions...you can share a thought completely and not have to yell over the noise of troublemakers who seem to fill-up larger forums with junk....

[alanmolstad]

I.... saw that Fig p***ed away? Wow.

he dropped off the forum a long time ago...i tried to reach out to him a few times, but it seems he stopped posting when a lot of other Mormons also dropped out of sight....

I never learned the reason why?

many of the other Mormons came back after a while anyway, but not Fig....

I only learned by accident that he had p***ed.

i started a topic here about him if your interested in sharing memories ...

[jdjhere]

I agree Alanmolstad but it woukld be nice to have some LDS here! Not that we cant chat without them, mind you. So, I see JamesBanta is still here at times and realfakehair too.

[alanmolstad]

I agree Alanmolstad but it woukld be nice to have some LDS here!.

here is what i have learned over the last few weeks.
I learned that this site is always visited by Mormons, but that many dont sign-in and have their names pop up.

I also learned that there are many topics in this forum that are still very good things to comment on.....

I have seen how Christians feel free to disagree, and that is something you dont find in Mormonism....the "feeling free"...

and I think thats one of the main reasons we get visitors who are not yet believers...they wish to experience this freedom.

[jdjhere]

"Feeling free" in Christ is liberating. He came to "set us free." Knowing that He did this FOR me makes me love Him more every day and I do not fear death anymore. THAT IS freedom! Just like Thomas said, He is my Lord and my God.

[RealFakeHair]

"Feeling free" in Christ is liberating. He came to "set us free." Knowing that He did this FOR me makes me love Him more every day and I do not fear death anymore. THAT IS freedom!

I believe Apostle Paul, knew best the freedom and Liberty in Christ Jesus of the Holy Bible. I also believe most ex-mormon who come to Christ of the Holy Bible have similar experiences.

[James Banta]

I agree Alanmolstad but it woukld be nice to have some LDS here! Not that we cant chat without them, mind you. So, I see JamesBanta is still here at times and realfakehair too.


I am here daily. IHS jim

[RealFakeHair]

I am here daily. IHS jim

I believe when a TBM comes on this site they either come because they are in doubt or doubt we know our stuff.
Keep up the good work.

[James Banta]

if that's the worst comment a guy is known for after years and years of debates?.....if thats it?...if thats all you got?

Let me ask you something...
Where are the real nasty comments that Fig must have made?

I mean from you guy's reaction to my few words about my memory of Fig you must be thinking of tons and tons of truly nasty comments that Fig must have made to get you guys so worked up like this right?

Surly you can point out tons of Fig's posts that are profane to justify the way you carry on so?


You think we hated Fig? Not at all, we reached out to fig. We showed him the Way. He was one of my own, but he was lost and holding faith in Joseph Smith's invented god. Doing and doing and doing to make himself acceptable to that god did nothing for his salvation.. Fig was a wonderful man but he was lost.. He was into religion but not into Jesus. He was into works and not the grace offered by God through faith in Jesus. He was as a student of the Pharisees that would travel thousands of miles to make one a convert and then make him twice the child of he as they were themselves. By putting other means of salvation, means other than grace along side that grace as the means of salvation fig achieved that place Jesus taught of converts to such a system.. I am sorry to say that as of my last conversation with him he was hell bound.. IHS jim

[dberrie2000]

While essentials of the Christian faith do exist,......only one God,

I agree--but that would cause a real problem for Trinitarians:

1 Corinthians 8:6---King James Version (KJV)
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

1 Timothy 2:5---King James Version (KJV)
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Ephesians 4:4-6---King James Version (KJV)
4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

John 17:3---King James Version (KJV)
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

1 Peter 1:3---King James Version (KJV)
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

Russ--the NT writers always separated out God the Son from the "one God" of the Biblical NT.

[Berean]

I agree--but that would cause a real problem for Trinitarians:

1 Corinthians 8:6---King James Version (KJV)
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

1 Timothy 2:5---King James Version (KJV)
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Ephesians 4:4-6---King James Version (KJV)
4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

John 17:3---King James Version (KJV)
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

1 Peter 1:3---King James Version (KJV)
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

Russ--the NT writers always separated out God the Son from the "one God" of the Biblical NT.

Nonsense.

Not only do you not understand the Bible (the answer is hidden in plain sight, right there in your argument) Simply read the Scriptures like a child, instead of with the Joseph Smith magic rock. You got yours with your Temple recommend, didn't you? If not, you should ask your Bishop. Everyone should have one.

The Book of Mormon doesn't separate God the Son from the Father, and since it's the "most correct book on the earth" why do you doubt it?

For example, we find in the Book of Mormon that Jesus and the Father are that ONE and ONLY God, manifest in 3 persons, God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit:

Alma 11: 44 Now, this restoration shall come to all, both old and young, both bond and free, both male and female, both the wicked and the righteous; and even there shall not so much as a hair of their heads be lost; but everything shall be restored to its perfect frame, as it is now, or in the body, and shall be brought and be arraigned before the bar of Christ the Son, and God the Father, and the Holy Spirit, which is one Eternal God, to be judged according to their works, whether they be good or whether they be evil.

2 Nephi 26:12 And as I spake concerning the convincing of the Jews, that Jesus is the very Christ, it must needs be that the Gentiles be convinced also that Jesus is the Christ, the Eternal God;

3 Nephi 11:17 Hosanna! Blessed be the name of the Most High God! And they did fall down at the feet of Jesus, and did worship him.

Mosiah 3:5 For behold, the time cometh, and is not far distant, that with power, the Lord Omnipotent who reigneth, who was, and is from all eternity to all eternity, shall come down from heaven among the children of men, and shall dwell in a tabernacle of clay, and shall go forth amongst men, working mighty miracles, such as healing the sick, raising the dead, causing the lame to walk, the blind to receive their sight, and the deaf to hear, and curing all manner of diseases.

3 Nephi 19:18 And behold, they began to pray; and they did pray unto Jesus, calling him their Lord and their God.

Mosiah 5:15 Therefore, I would that ye should be steadfast and immovable, always abounding in good works, that Christ, the Lord God Omnipotent, may seal you his, that you may be brought to heaven, that ye may have everlasting salvation and eternal life, through the wisdom, and power, and justice, and mercy of him who created all things, in heaven and in earth, who is God above all. Amen.

2 Nephi 10:3 Wherefore, as I said unto you, it must needs be expedient that Christ*for in the last night the angel spake unto me that this should be his name*should come among the Jews, among those who are the more wicked part of the world; and they shall crucify him*for thus it behooveth our God, and there is none other nation on earth that would crucify their God.

2 Nephi 25:29 And now behold, I say unto you that the right way is to believe in Christ, and deny him not; and Christ is the Holy One of Israel; wherefore ye must bow down before him, and worship him with all your might, mind, and strength, and your whole soul; and if ye do this ye shall in nowise be cast out.

Now the Bible also claims that God and Jesus are that same One God.

For example:



The God of the Bible is by nature, Spirit (John 4:24).
There is only One True God, but He exists as three Persons -- God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit (Matthew 3:16-17).
God is infinite (1 Timothy 1:17),
Incomparable (2 Samuel 7:22),
And unchanging (Malachi 3:6).
God is omnipresent (exists everywhere) (Psalm 139:7-12),
Omniscient (knows everything) (Psalm 147:5; Isaiah 40:28),
And is omnipotent (has all power and authority) (Ephesians 1; Revelation 19:6).


I leave you to look these up yourself, and please do, but please ditch the KJV for a more accurate translation. Perhaps that's why you're struggling so much with this and other plain and simple Bible doctrines.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View PostI agree--but that would cause a real problem for Trinitarians:

1 Corinthians 8:6---King James Version (KJV)
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

1 Timothy 2:5---King James Version (KJV)
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Ephesians 4:4-6---King James Version (KJV)
4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

John 17:3---King James Version (KJV)
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

1 Peter 1:3---King James Version (KJV)
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

Russ--the NT writers always separated out God the Son from the "one God" of the Biblical NT.


Nonsense.

Not only do you not understand the Bible (the answer is hidden in plain sight, right there in your argument) Simply read the Scriptures like a child, instead of with the Joseph Smith magic rock. You got yours with your Temple recommend, didn't you? If not, you should ask your Bishop. Everyone should have one.

Again--the Biblical NT always separated out God the Son from the "one God" of the Biblical text--the very God and Father of God the Son.

Care to address the above scriptures?

Care to give us any NT scripture which combines all three persons in the "one God" of the Biblical text?

[dberrie2000]

My. The old Mormon game in which if a verse doesn't explicitly state something according to Mormon "judgment" that it should, then somehow the Bible doesn't teach it, etc.

Questions for you figster:

Does the Bible call the Father, "God".

Yes.

Does the Bible call the Son, "God".

Yes.

Does the Bible call the Holy Spirit, "God".

Yes.

Does the Bible teach there is ONLY ONE GOD?

Yes.

There's only one problem with that logic, Father.

The Biblical NT writers always separated out God the Son from the "one God" of the Biblical NT:

1 Corinthians 8:6---King James Version (KJV)
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

1 Timothy 2:5--King James Version (KJV)
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Ephesians 4:4-6--King James Version (KJV)
4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

1 Peter 1:3--King James Version (KJV)
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

John 17:3---King James Version (KJV)
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.