Biblical and historical reasons why Mitt Romney is not a Christian

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
Romans5:18--"Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life."


That is correct. We are all condemned.

No, Billyray--we were released from the condemnation of the Fall. That is why Jesus Christ gave the free gift to all mankind through His Atonement--He took away the condemnation of the Fall from all men.

Please do notice the "came upon all men" in Romans5:18. Past tense. Complete when Christ finished it. All men made partakers of it when He finished it. Free gift to all men.

[Billyray]

No, Billyray--we were released from the condemnation of the Fall.

Nope everyone who places their faith in Christ is justified. Those who don't place their faith in Christ are not justified and will go to hell.

[Billyray]

All men made partakers of it when He finished it. Free gift to all men.
If all men are justified then all men will go to heaven. Came upon all men speaks about all men who are in Christ.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
No, Billyray--we were released from the condemnation of the Fall.


Nope everyone who places their faith in Christ is justified. Those who don't place their faith in Christ are not justified and will go to hell.

Your confusing mortal man's personal choices with the condemnation brought upon all men due to the Fall.

The faith of mortal mankind had nothing to do with the consequences of the Fall. Those consequences of the Fall came upon all men regardless of man's faith.

That is why it took Jesus Christ and His Atonement to overcome death and hell. Man could not do it.

Because of the Atonement--all men can come unto Christ and be saved--through faith in Christ.

They are two separate things--the Atonement made salvation possible, by taking away the condemnation due to the Fall.

The condemnation is taken away through Christ's Atonement, and had nothing to do with man's faith. Christ alone.

Romans5:18--"Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life."

That "one' is Jesus Christ--and none other.

Eternal life is given to those who receive of His grace through faith in Christ.(obedience to Him)

[Billyray]

They are two separate things--the Atonement made salvation possible, by taking away the condemnation due to the Fall.

And those who place their faith in Christ will be justified and those who don't won't.

[Billyray]

Romans5:18--"Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life."

Those who place their faith in Christ will be justified.

[dberrie2000]

dberrie----No, Billyray--we were released from the condemnation of the Fall. That is why Jesus Christ gave the free gift to all mankind through His Atonement--He took away the condemnation of the Fall from all men.

Please do notice the "came upon all men" in Romans5:18. Past tense. Complete when Christ finished it. All men made partakers of it when He finished it. Free gift to all men.


If all men are justified then all men will go to heaven. Came upon all men speaks about all men who are in Christ.

You are trying to stuff your personal theology on the scriptures that state no such thing.

Again--what are you missing in this scripture?

Romans5:18--"Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life."

You have a dog in the fight--your theology demands that this Atonement be only for a few--the elect--and so the editing begins. Add whatever is necessary for the scriptures to conform to your theology--cover and cancel those that do not fit--reinterpret those which contradict....

If one would notice--the scripture in Romans5:18 has a context--here it is:

It compares two things: 1) The condemnation of ALL MEN due to the Fall. 2) The free gift to ALL MEN due to the Atonement.

Notice any similarities there? ALL MEN. We know that all men were condemned due to the Fall--but Billyray has to alter that on the other side of the equation, because it does not conform to his theology.

So much for the edit programmers.

[Billyray]

Romans5:18--"Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life."


It brings us back to the term justification. Define that word for me. Do you think that justification means resurrection in this sentence?

[BigJulie]

It brings us back to the term justification. Define that word for me. Do you think that justification means resurrection in this sentence?

Justification in and of itself does not mean resurrection, but "justification of life" does mean resurrection.

[Billyray]

Justification in and of itself does not mean resurrection, but "justification of life" does mean resurrection.

So the definition of justification is?

[BigJulie]

So the definition of justification is?

It means the demands of justice have been met.

In the verse you gave above, it means the demands have been met in regards to the fall of Adam with the atonement of Jesus Christ. Spelled out step by step;

Romans5:18--"Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation;
(the offense of Adam meant that all men die)

even so by the righteousness of one
(the righteousness of one (Jesus Christ)

the free gift (something that Christ did not have to do)

came upon all men (everyone who dies because of the Fall of Adam)

unto the justification of life
(the demands of justice have been met and therefore the penalty of death is now undone and life returns.)

[Billyray]

It means the demands of justice have been met.

So if a person has justification then that person is declared righteous in the eyes of God because of Christ's sacrifice.

[BigJulie]

So if a person has justification then that person is declared righteous in the eyes of God because of Christ's sacrifice.

What? See above.

[Billyray]

Justification in and of itself does not mean resurrection, but "justification of life" does mean resurrection.

So "justification of life" means resurrection of life.

[Billyray]

what? See above.
. . .
. . .

so if a person has justification then that person is declared righteous in the eyes of god because of christ's sacrifice.

[BigJulie]

So "justification of life" means resurrection of life.

It means resurrection from being dead. The penalty of the fall of Adam is death--therefore, as the penalty for Adam's sin was paid for by Christ---justification for the penalty is to remove the penalty which means resurrection from the dead. Because the penalty was paid, now we are judged "according to our own sins and not Adam's transgression." Which means if you suffer the second death, it has nothing to do with Adam, but your own sins.

[Billyray]

Blue Letter Bible
Justification

Strong's G1347 - dikaiōsis
δικαίωσις

Outline of Biblical Usage
1) the act of God declaring men free from guilt and acceptable to him
2) abjuring to be righteous, justification

http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G1347&t=KJV

[BigJulie]

Blue Letter Bible
Justification

Strong's G1347 - dikaiōsis
δικαίωσις

Outline of Biblical Usage
1) the act of God declaring men free from guilt and acceptable to him
2) abjuring to be righteous, justification

http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G1347&t=KJV

Here is your commentary again. Looking at your above definition, a baby would not then be held "guilty" for Adam's transgression but would be "free from guilt and acceptable to him." In other words---the penalty of death that they pay (through no fault of their own) is removed--which would be the only just and fair thing to do. Now as that child grows and sins, they are held accountable for their own sins alone--as the sin of Adam has been justified by Christ.

[Billyray]

--justification for the penalty is to remove the penalty which means resurrection from the dead. .

So the individual is not justified.

[Billyray]

Here is your commentary again.

Outline of Biblical Usage
1) the act of God declaring men free from guilt and acceptable to him
2) abjuring to be righteous, justification

So you disagree with the definition of this word?

[BigJulie]

Outline of Biblical Usage
1) the act of God declaring men free from guilt and acceptable to him
2) abjuring to be righteous, justification

So you disagree with the definition of this word?

See above.

[Billyray]

See above.

Is that a yes or a no?

[BigJulie]

So the individual is not justified.

What?? I think you are reading the verse fit your definition of justification rather than what it is clearly stating and what justification means in terms of the legal since---which if you read---the Bible if full of legal terms.

And I don't even know what "abjuring" means and when I looked it up, it doesn't fit---so no---I don't agree with the Blue Letter Bible completely on this one. ---Abstaining to be righteous?? Making and oath to be righteous??? Huh?

[Billyray]

What?? I think you are reading the verse fit your definition of justification rather than what it is clearly stating and what justification means in terms of the legal since-

If a person is justified is that person innocent or guilty?

[Billyray]

Abstaining to be righteous?? Making and oath to be righteous??? Huh?
How about a standard Dictionary definition from Merriam

Definition of JUSTIFICATION
1: the act, process, or state of being justified by God

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/justification

[Billyray]

Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

What does justify mean in this verse?

[Billyray]

Romans 3:30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

How is justify used in this verse?

[Billyray]

Galatians 3:8 8And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

What does justify mean in this verse?

[Billyray]

Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

What does justified mean in this verse?

[Billyray]

Romans 5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

Notice the phrase "they which receive". Does this indicate that this gift goes to every person OR that this gift goes to all who receive him?

[BigJulie]

Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

What does justified mean in this verse?

This refers to those who have sinned (not the sins of Adam) whose sins are justified by their faith (which is manifest by obedience). In other words, Christ paid the price for their sins on the condition that they follow Him.

[Billyray]

This refers to those who have sinned (not the sins of Adam) whose sins are justified by their faith (which is manifest by obedience). In other words, Christ paid the price for their sins on the condition that they follow Him.

Do you realize that this whole chapter is about justification by faith?

[BigJulie]

Romans 5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

Notice the phrase "they which receive". Does this indicate that this gift goes to every person OR that this gift goes to all who receive him?

Here is the whole paragraph:

Rom 5:12 ¶ Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death p***ed upon all men, for that all have sinned: (In this verse, Paul is speaking to the fact that because of Adam, all "have sinned"--in this phrase, Paul is using the term sin to mean all have fallen from God or all men are in a fallen state.)

Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. (This speaks to the fact that sin is defined by the law. When there is no law, there is no breaking the law or sin. So, until Adam transgressed or broke the law, there was no sin in the world.)


Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. (This speaks of the fact that even though men had not sinned, they still paid the penalty of the sin of Adam which is death. Do you see also how Paul explains what he means by "all have sinned" even though then in a few more verses he states "even over them that have not sinned"---he is not condracting his previous statement but explaining what this "sin" is---basically, having fallen as did Adam.


Rom 5:15 But not as the offence, so also [is] the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, [which is] by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
(In this verse, Paul explains that the offense (the fall of Adam comes upon men through nothing they do, likewise, so is the gift of the atonement to overcome death. Now, keep in mind that he uses the term "many" but he could easily use the term "all" as "all" men die--except for a few such as Elijah or Enoch. So, whom ever has died, Christ gives this gift of grace to overcome death.) Paul also lets the reader understand that Christ gives us more grace that just the grace He gave to Adam as most of us sin on our own and therefore need more grace than just the grace given for the death or fall of Adam.


Rom 5:16 And not as [it was] by one that sinned, [so is] the gift: for the judgment [was] by one to condemnation, but the free gift [is] of many offences unto justification. (And this is a direct comparison....we die, not because of something we did (but Adam did). Likewise, we live and not because of something we did (but Christ did).) Paul also brilliantly explains the atonement further here---to those who understand that they, having been justified for the sin of Adam, still sin on their own and so are now condemned again. So, Christ's atonement doesn't just atone for one sin, but for many.


Rom 5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) (Paul continues the thought here---explaining that Christ atonement did not just cover the sin of Adam, but all the offenses committed by men if they come unto Christ.)

Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one [judgment came] upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one [the free gift came] upon all men unto justification of life. (Now Paul is going back to the start---repeating himself so that his teachings are clear. He is explaining once again that the atonement covered the sins of Adam and now all men will be resurrected.)


Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. (And now he is explaining once again the second part of the atonement, that is that Christ covered the sins each man has committed for the righteous.)


Rom 5:20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound: (This now goes back to the very start, that until Adam died, the law and sin was not in the world---but now that the law is in the world and men can and do sin---so so much more can the grace of God apply.)


Rom 5:21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord. (Paul sums it up explaining that the sin of Adam caused death and thereby sin came into the world---or that sin "reigned unto death"---but now grace reigns---first to overcome death and second to bring about eternal life.--both explained by Paul above.

[BigJulie]

Do you realize that this whole chapter is about justification by faith?

It is about that and why men no longer pay for the sin of Adam.

[Billyray]

It is about that and why men no longer pay for the sin of Adam.
All are condemned. Those who place their faith in Christ will be resurrected to life. Those who don't place their faith in Christ will be resurrected to ****ation.

[Billyray]

Here is the whole paragraph:

Rom 5:12 ¶ Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death p***ed upon all men, for that all have sinned: (In this verse, Paul is speaking to the fact that because of Adam, all "have sinned"--in this phrase, Paul is using the term sin to mean all have fallen from God or all men are in a fallen state.)

Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. (This speaks to the fact that sin is defined by the law. When there is no law, there is no breaking the law or sin. So, until Adam transgressed or broke the law, there was no sin in the world.)


Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. (This speaks of the fact that even though men had not sinned, they still paid the penalty of the sin of Adam which is death. Do you see also how Paul explains what he means by "all have sinned" even though then in a few more verses he states "even over them that have not sinned"---he is not condracting his previous statement but explaining what this "sin" is---basically, having fallen as did Adam.


Rom 5:15 But not as the offence, so also [is] the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, [which is] by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
(In this verse, Paul explains that the offense (the fall of Adam comes upon men through nothing they do, likewise, so is the gift of the atonement to overcome death. Now, keep in mind that he uses the term "many" but he could easily use the term "all" as "all" men die--except for a few such as Elijah or Enoch. So, whom ever has died, Christ gives this gift of grace to overcome death.) Paul also lets the reader understand that Christ gives us more grace that just the grace He gave to Adam as most of us sin on our own and therefore need more grace than just the grace given for the death or fall of Adam.


Rom 5:16 And not as [it was] by one that sinned, [so is] the gift: for the judgment [was] by one to condemnation, but the free gift [is] of many offences unto justification. (And this is a direct comparison....we die, not because of something we did (but Adam did). Likewise, we live and not because of something we did (but Christ did).) Paul also brilliantly explains the atonement further here---to those who understand that they, having been justified for the sin of Adam, still sin on their own and so are now condemned again. So, Christ's atonement doesn't just atone for one sin, but for many.
Rom 5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) (Paul continues the thought here---explaining that Christ atonement did not just cover the sin of Adam, but all the offenses committed by men if they come unto Christ.)

Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one [judgment came] upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one [the free gift came] upon all men unto justification of life. (Now Paul is going back to the start---repeating himself so that his teachings are clear. He is explaining once again that the atonement covered the sins of Adam and now all men will be resurrected.)


Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. (And now he is explaining once again the second part of the atonement, that is that Christ covered the sins each man has committed for the righteous.)


Rom 5:20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound: (This now goes back to the very start, that until Adam died, the law and sin was not in the world---but now that the law is in the world and men can and do sin---so so much more can the grace of God apply.)


Rom 5:21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord. (Paul sums it up explaining that the sin of Adam caused death and thereby sin came into the world---or that sin "reigned unto death"---but now grace reigns---first to overcome death and second to bring about eternal life.--both explained by Paul above.
And the whole chapter is about justification by faith.

[Billyray]

Rom 5:13 For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. (This speaks to the fact that sin is defined by the law. When there is no law, there is no breaking the law or sin. So, until Adam transgressed or broke the law, there was no sin in the world.)
That is not what this is speaking about. There was no law pre Moses.

[BigJulie]

That is not what this is speaking about. There was no law pre Moses.

Oh, Billyray---you just gave a big insight into how little you understand or even read the old testament. Yes, read when God gave the law to Moses---God clearly explains that God gave "their fathers' one law, but they are going to receive a different law. Therefore, the ten commandments is actually clearly defined as a law different from the law given before meaning that what Moses received was something new compared to what Adam, Noah, Enoch, or Abraham received. (Who clearly make up "the fathers" of Moses).

[Billyray]

Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. (This speaks of the fact that even though men had not sinned,

Men did sin but they were not accountable because there was no law.

[Billyray]

-God clearly explains that God gave "their fathers' one law, but they are going to receive a different law.
Give me a list of what commandments they were bound to pre law?

[BigJulie]

And the whole chapter is about justification by faith.

This whole chapter explains WHY the atonement and what it did-both for the justification of death unto life and the justification of sin unto righteousness.

[BigJulie]

Give me a list of what commandments they were bound to pre law?

It doesn't matter what they were--what matters is God clearly tells Moses that He is going to give Israel a different law then the one He gave "the fathers."

And I can tell you that because I am studying this in Hebrew right now. And I can't give it to you in English because I have made a promise to my teacher to only read it in Hebrew. So, I can tell you, reading the Torah or the law in Hebrew---you are absolutely and totally wrong--no doubts, no questions, period.

[Billyray]

Yes, read when God gave the law to Moses---God clearly explains that God gave "their fathers' one law, but they are going to receive a different law.

Romans 5:13 For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

When was there no law IN the world?

[Billyray]

It doesn't matter what they were--what matters is God clearly tells Moses that He is going to give Israel a different law then the one He gave "the fathers."


Give me a list of all of the laws that they were under pre Moses.

[BigJulie]

Give me a list of all of the laws that they were under pre Moses.

Billyray--you are going to have to take this one up with God as He is the one who told Moses that He was going to give them a different law from the law that HE GAVE Moses' "fathers."

[BigJulie]

Romans 5:13 For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

When was there no law IN the world?

The first law was not to eat of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. There is the law. Once the law was given--sin came upon the world when Adam broke the law. Now, are you going to try to argue that the garden of Eden was not of this planet?

[Billyray]

Billyray--you are going to have to take this one up with God
I have and I know that what you believe is false.

[Billyray]

The first law was not to eat of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. There is the law.

Which was in the garden.

Romans 5:13 For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

When was there no law IN the world?

[BigJulie]

I have and I know that what you believe is false.

No, it is scriptural--just read the OT. :)

[Billyray]

Now, are you going to try to argue that the garden of Eden was not of this planet?
Was it a commandment IN the world not to eat of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil? Was Seth, Cain, Noah etc. . . under this law?

[BigJulie]

Which was in the garden.

Romans 5:13 For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

When was there no law IN the world?

Oh--do you mean that men will not be held accountable for the sins in which their is no law given?

So, when God told Adam not to eat of the tree, was that a law or not? When Abel made a sacrifice to God that was acceptable..was that a law or not? When Cain made a sacrifice that was unacceptable, was he held accountable or not? What about when Cain murdered Abel? Did he realize that went against God or not? What about when Abraham was circumcized? Was that something that was a law to Abraham or not? Shall I go on?

[Billyray]

No, it is scriptural--just read the OT

OK then show me all of the laws that they were under.

You believe that they had the gospel until Moses when it was changed to a "lesser version" because of unrighteousness.

Where is the priesthood among all the major players in the OT pre Moses?

Where is baptism?

Where are all of the ordinances?

[Billyray]

Oh--do you mean that men will not be held accountable for the sins in which their is no law given?


Romans 5:13 For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

When was there no law IN the world?

[Billyray]

Oh--do you mean that men will not be held accountable for the sins in which their is no law given?


Romans 5

12Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death p***ed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

13 For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

[BigJulie]

OK then show me all of the laws that they were under.

You believe that they had the gospel until Moses when it was changed to a "lesser version" because of unrighteousness.

Where is the priesthood among all the major players in the OT pre Moses?

Where is baptism?

Where are all of the ordinances?

Oh, boy--you need to read the first five books of the OT and see what these men were up too. Abraham was paying ***hes, making sacrifices, giving burnt offerings, getting circumcized, having heavenly visitors, etc.

[BigJulie]

Romans 5

12Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death p***ed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

13 For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

Yes, but the "sin" came into the world when Adam fell, not when God gave the ten commandments to Moses.

Paul's teachings here are very deep and speak on many levels. I am not surprised you don't understand him.

[Billyray]

Abraham was paying ***hes,
Abraham gave ten percent of recovered stolen property to Melchizedek and then returned the remaining 90 percent. This is hardly a model for ***hing. And show me where ***hing was commanded by God. Also show me where Abraham gives any ***hes again on any of his increase.

[BigJulie]

Abraham gave ten percent of recovered stolen property to Melchizedek and then returned the remaining 90 percent. This is hardly a model for ***hing. And show me where ***hing was commanded by God. Also show me where Abraham gives any ***hes again on any of his increase.

Boy, you do need to read the OT and see exactly what God thinks of Abraham. You guys in here just continually slam him. Let's see, God gave Abraham his name which means in Hebrew "exalted father." You decide how much you want to rip on Abraham and giving his ***hes to Melchizedek which means "righteous king."

[Billyray]

Yes, but the "sin" came into the world when Adam fell

When you break a commandment you sin. You don't have to have knowledge of the commandment to sin but it is sin nonetheless. Just like a child who takes a candy bar. That is a sin and it is breaking the law even though the young child may not know that it is wrong. Now accountability is a separate issue.

13 For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

[Billyray]

Boy, you do need to read the OT and see exactly what God thinks of Abraham.

Boy YOU need to read the OT and not read your Mormon theology into the text that clearly is not there.

Did Seth hold the priesthood?

Did Noah hold the priesthood?

Did Abraham hold the priesthood?

[BigJulie]

When you break a commandment you sin. You don't have to have knowledge of the commandment to sin but it is sin nonetheless. Just like a child who takes a candy bar. That is a sin and it is breaking the law even though the young child may not know that it is wrong. Now accountability is a separate issue.

13 For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

So, what are you saying---because you did not personally eat the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil and for those who don't even know about it---there is no penalty? They don't die? Or, are you saying that those who do not know about right and wrong are not held accountable for that? Yes, I agree---which is why I don't believe the majority of the world is going to hell as you do.

[Billyray]

Boy, you do need to read the OT and see exactly what God thinks of Abraham. You guys in here just continually slam him.

He was justified by faith.

[BigJulie]

Boy YOU need to read the OT and not read your Mormon theology into the text that clearly is not there.

Did Seth hold the priesthood?

Did Noah hold the priesthood?

Did Abraham hold the priesthood?

Yes, to all the above. The priesthood means that one has the authorityto act in God's name here on earth. Certainly, you can see that Noah did as he built the ark and through him the life on the planet was saved. Abraham certainly did as he was the one given the promise that it would be through him that world would be blessed. So, when Abraham gave a blessing to Isaac---was that blessing "authoritative"---did God act on it? etc.

[BigJulie]

He was justified by faith.

So, were his ***hes justified through faith? Did the "exalted father" gives ***hes to the "righteous king" or was this just stolen goods as you say?

[Billyray]

Or, are you saying that those who do not know about right and wrong are not held accountable for that?
God has laws and they did not know all of these laws but when a person breaks those laws it is still sin. Likewise a young child who steals a candy bar is breaking the law and committing a sin against God but because he doesn't know better he is not accountable. So this takes us back to the question about young children who sin but (in my opinion) they will not go to hell because they are not accountable because they don't know better.

[BigJulie]

God has laws and they did not know all of these laws but when a person breaks those laws it is still sin. Likewise a young child who steals a candy bar is breaking the law and committing a sin against God but because he doesn't know better he is not accountable.

Okay. So, are we held accountable for the sin of Adam even though we did not eat of the tree and do we die as promised to Adam for eating the fruit? Or has that breaking of the law been justified?

[Billyray]

So, are we held accountable for the sin of Adam even though we did not eat of the tree
ESV Study Bible

Rom. 5:13 Sin was in the world before the Mosaic law was ins***uted, but it was not technically reckoned as sin before the time of the law. Paul does not mean that people were guiltless without the law, for he has already said in 2:12 that those without the written law are still judged by God (e.g., those who perished in the flood [Genesis 6–9] and those who were judged at the tower of Babel [Gen. 11:1–9]). Since people still died, this shows that they were guilty—as a consequence of Adam’s sin but possibly also as a consequence of having transgressed the universal moral law in their consciences before the written Mosaic law was given.

[Billyray]

Boy YOU need to read the OT and not read your Mormon theology into the text that clearly is not there.

Did Seth hold the priesthood?

Did Noah hold the priesthood?

Did Abraham hold the priesthood?

Yes, to all the above.
Can you give me a reference in the Bible that would confirm that these guys held the Melchizedek priesthood or the "Holy Priesthood, after the Order of the Son of God".

[dberrie2000]

Can you give me a reference in the Bible that would confirm that these guys held the Melchizedek priesthood or the "Holy Priesthood, after the Order of the Son of God".

Could you even give a reference to the exact term "Aaronic Priesthood" in the OT?

[Billyray]

Could you even give a reference to the exact term "Aaronic Priesthood" in the OT?

Aaronic prieshood is a Mormon term. But you can certainly read about the Levitical priests. Start with Leviticus which goes over in detail the role of the priests.

[Billyray]

Could you even give a reference to the exact term "Aaronic Priesthood" in the OT?

Aaronic prieshood is a Mormon term. But you can certainly read about the Levitical priests. Start with Leviticus which goes over in detail the role of the priests.


Boy YOU need to read the OT and not read your Mormon theology into the text that clearly is not there.

Did Seth hold the priesthood?

Did Noah hold the priesthood?

Did Abraham hold the priesthood?

Can you answer my question now?

[BigJulie]

Could you even give a reference to the exact term "Aaronic Priesthood" in the OT?

Dberrie---Billyray is trying to make the point that there was no law before Moses (so that his reading of Romans 5 works for him) by attempting to show that there was no priesthood before Moses.

This notion is patently absurd as the priesthood, by definition, means that one can act for and in behalf of God. This "holy order" is the order in which God does things. We both understand that.

What Billyray needs to prove then, is that no one acted in behalf of God prior to Moses. We can see that this is not the case. Obviously, Noah acted in behalf of God when he built the ark. Obviously, when Abraham gave a blessing to Isaac (and not to Esau), it was authoritative as the birthright went to Isaac and not Esau even though Esau was the first born child. We can also see that Jacob gave an authoritative blessing to his sons--one of whom was Judah and in which we can see, Christ did come from that line.

So, this notion that there was no law before Moses and no priesthood before Moses is absurd to say the least. Billyray does not believe it because it isn't spelled out clearly enough for him, but anyone who is reading the OT can clearly see that the priesthood was in effect in the OT, if for no other reason, Abraham gave ***hes to Melchezedic. Obviously, in order for Abraham (whom God calls "exalted father") gave ***hes to Melchezedic (which means righteous king), a priesthood was in effect. Also, if Abel was making righteous sacrifices to the Lord, the priesthood was in effect.

But, we can learn from Moses, that the law that was given to him was not the same law that was given to his fathers--as is clearly told to Moses and he clearly tells to the Israelites. Hence, the Levitical Priesthood was not the same law, but there was a law before (and a priesthood before), this is obvious. So, the question for Billyray is --what was that law or what was that priesthood since CLEARLY the "fathers" of Moses were under it and Moses understands this clearly as he is the one to explain that it is a new covenant that they are under and not the covenant that was "cut" with their fathers.

[BigJulie]

Gen 14:18 ¶ And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and he [was] the priest of the most high God

Hbr 7:9 And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth ***hes, payed ***hes in Abraham.

[Billyray]

Dberrie---Billyray is trying to make the point that there was no law before Moses (so that his reading of Romans 5 works for him) by attempting to show that there was no priesthood before Moses.


Romans 5:13 For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

When was there NO law IN the world?

You believe that they were under the law of the gospel from Adam to Moses, which would include baptism, laying on of hand for the gift of the Holy Ghost, Melchizedek priesthood and all the other ordinances. Where do you find all of these things pre Moses?

[Billyray]

Gen 14:18 ¶ And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and he [was] the priest of the most high God

Hbr 7:9 And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth ***hes, payed ***hes in Abraham.

Abraham gave Melchizedek 10% of recovered stolen property and gave the remaining 90% to their rightful owners. This is hardly a model for ***hing. Melchizedek is never ever given the commandment to ***he and you never ever see him pay ***hes on any of his increase.

[BigJulie]

Romans 5:13 For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

When was there NO law IN the world?

You believe that they were under the law of the gospel from Adam to Moses, which would include baptism, laying on of hand for the gift of the Holy Ghost, Melchizedek priesthood and all the other ordinances. Where do you find all of these things pre Moses?

No, you are defining what you think "the law" is---suffice it to say that it is clear that there was a law from Adam to Moses as can be clearly seen in the reading of the Old Testament.

Or were you thinking that it was okay that Cain killed Abel as there was "no law" according to you?

[BigJulie]

Abraham gave Melchizedek 10% of recovered stolen property and gave the remaining 90% to their rightful owners. This is hardly a model for ***hing. Melchizedek is never ever given the commandment to ***he and you never ever see him pay ***hes on any of his increase.

Oh--look at the lengths you go to make who God calls "exalted father" giving ***hes to what God calls the king of Salem "righteous king" and also the "king of peace"---look at what lengths you go to disqualify the ***hes that Abraham gave to Melchizedek all to make your "not law theory until Moses" work. And what about Levi paying ***hes to Abraham?

[Billyray]

So, this notion that there was no law before Moses and no priesthood before Moses is absurd to say the least.

Then show me the Melchizedek priesthood and the law of the gospel from Adam to Moses.

[Billyray]

Oh--look at the lengths you go to make who God calls "exalted father" giving ***hes to what God calls the king of Salem "righteous king" and also the "king of peace"---look at what lengths you go to disqualify the ***hes that Abraham gave to Melchizedek all to make your "not law theory until Moses" work. And what about Levi paying ***hes to Abraham?

Show me where ***hing is commanded in the Bible. It is in the Bible, look for it and get back to me with the answer.

[BigJulie]

Show me where ***hing is commanded in the Bible. It is in the Bible, look for it and get back to me with the answer.

Yes, I get it now--you think that Abraham paid ***hes to Melchizedek and Levi paid ***hes to Abraham because they sucked it out of their thumb.

[BigJulie]

Then show me the Melchizedek priesthood and the law of the gospel from Adam to Moses.

What is obvious is that the priesthood existed prior to Moses as can be clearly seen. So, what do you believe this priesthood to be?

[Billyray]

***hing wasn't commanded until the Law.

7:9 And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth ***hes, payed ***hes in Abraham.

This doesn't say that Levi paid ***hes to Abraham.

[BigJulie]

***hing wasn't commanded until the Law.

7:9 And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth ***hes, payed ***hes in Abraham.

This doesn't say that Levi paid ***hes to Abraham.

You keep believing that Billyray, as it is the ONLY way you can make Romans 5 make what you think it should. You can keep believing that God was silent until Moses. I, on, the other hand can clearly see that God was very active in teaching His children even prior to Moses which is why Cain and Abel were giving sacrifices and why Abraham was paying ***hes.

[Billyray]

You keep believing that Billyray, as it is the ONLY way you can make Romans 5 make what you think it should.

Prove me wrong BigJ. Show me the law of the gospel pre Moses. Show me baptism. Show me laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost. Show me the commandment for ***hing pre Moses. Show me temple ordinances.

[BigJulie]

Prove me wrong BigJ. Show me the law of the gospel pre Moses. Show me baptism. Show me laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost. Show me the commandment for ***hing pre Moses. Show me temple ordinances.

The Old Testament has proved you wrong Billyray--you just need to take the time to read it and understand it.

You remind me of what I used to say to my children---"s.tupidity is no excuse" when they tried to say to me---"but you didn't say that mom" as an excuse for doing something wrong or not doing something right.

[Billyray]

The Old Testament has proved you wrong Billyray--you just need to take the time to read it and understand it. -
What you want me to do is to read your theology into the text like you do even though it is not there.

[BigJulie]

What you want me to do is to read your theology into the text like you do even though it is not there.

No, just the opposite. You are trying to make the OT fit your theology so Romans 5 fits what you think it should. Once you accept that a law was given pre-Moses and a new law given to Moses, then you understand the Moses's "fathers' had a covenant/law which is precisely why when Moses gives the law to the Israelites, he explains that it is not the covenant the Lord "cut" with their fathers, but is the covenant received "today"--or the day Moses gave it.

That is Biblical Billyray. So, not only can you not prove their was no law pre-Moses, there are scriptures in direct contradiction to what you believe.

[dberrie2000]

Dberrie---Billyray is trying to make the point that there was no law before Moses (so that his reading of Romans 5 works for him) by attempting to show that there was no priesthood before Moses.

This notion is patently absurd as the priesthood, by definition, means that one can act for and in behalf of God. This "holy order" is the order in which God does things. We both understand that.

Patently false, to be sure. Paul plainly stated that Abraham was under the gospel of Christ.

Galatians3:6-9--"Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.

7Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

8And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

9So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham."

Galatians3:18-19--"For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

19Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator."

The Mosaic Law was added to what?

[dberrie2000]

Romans 5:13 For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

When was there no law IN the world?

There never was. The "Law" is Paul's reference to the Mosaic Law. The Mosaic Law came into being at a certain point in time. That in no way precludes the fact that Abraham lived under the gospel.

Galatians3:18-19--"For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

19Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator."

The Mosaic Law was added to what?

[Billyray]

There never was. The "Law" is Paul's reference to the Mosaic Law.

Romans 5:13 For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no Law.

If there was a law pre Moses then what did Paul mean by " but sin is not imputed when there is no law?

[Billyray]

Once you accept that a law was given pre-Moses and a new law given to Moses. . .
I am interested in this theory that there was a higher law that was given then downgraded because of unrighteousness. Where can I read about this?

[Billyray]

The Mosaic Law came into being at a certain point in time

Why did God change the law from a higher law to a lower law? Where can I read about this?

[Billyray]

Patently false, to be sure. Paul plainly stated that Abraham was under the gospel of Christ.


Can you show me this gospel given in the OT pre Moses?

[BigJulie]

I am interested in this theory that there was a higher law that was given then downgraded because of unrighteousness. Where can I read about this?

In Deut. is where you can read about the Mosiac law --which is also why everyone except two (Joshua and Kaleb) were killed off prior to going into the promises land.

[BigJulie]

Can you show me this gospel given in the OT pre Moses?

You can read through the OT and see it throughout AND this is verified in the NT:

Galatians3:6-9--"Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.

7Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

8And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

9So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham."

Galatians3:18-19--"For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

19Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator."

[Billyray]

You can read through the OT and see it throughout AND this is verified in the NT:

I can't find it in the OT BigJ can you show me some verses?

[Billyray]

You can read through the OT and see it throughout AND this is verified in the NT:

Can you give me the NT definition of the gospel? The way Paul would define it since you are quoting Paul.

[dberrie2000]

Why did God change the law from a higher law to a lower law? Where can I read about this?

Billyray--I already printed that for you:

Galatians3:18-19--"For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

19Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator."

What was the Law added to?

[Billyray]

What was the Law added to?

I can't find the law of the gospel pre Moses, can you show me all the laws that predates Moses?

[Billyray]

What was the Law added to?

This is very interesting DB. So you believe that there were a set number of laws and that more laws were added to the existing laws?

[BigJulie]

I can't find the law of the gospel pre Moses, can you show me all the laws that predates Moses?

Start with the law given to Adam and work from there and see how many times God teaches His people and tells them what to do. Read the gospel of Jesus Christ to mean---Jesus Christ leading His people and telling them what to do. Read those who belong to the gospel of Jesus Christ to mean, those who listen to Jesus Christ and do what He says.

[Billyray]

Start with the law given to Adam and work from there and see how many times God teaches His people and tells them what to do. Read the gospel of Jesus Christ to mean---Jesus Christ leading His people and telling them what to do. Read those who belong to the gospel of Jesus Christ to mean, those who listen to Jesus Christ and do what He says.

I don' see the guys pre Moses having the law of the gospel with ***ociated ordinances. It is just not there. Feel free to believe this but I can't.

[Billyray]

Read those who belong to the gospel of Jesus Christ to mean, those who listen to Jesus Christ and do what He says.

the gospel means good news. That Jesus came, he died, and was raised on the third day. And by faith in him we will be saved. That is what Abraham was taught and everyone who is saved it is by faith.

[dberrie2000]

the gospel means good news. That Jesus came, he died, and was raised on the third day. And by faith in him we will be saved. That is what Abraham was taught and everyone who is saved it is by faith.

Billyray--it is not faith that saves us--it is His grace.

No one argues that we are saved by grace through faith. The question at hand is what makes you believe that this "faith" is devoid of obedience to Jesus Christ, when speaking of salvation?

[BigJulie]

the gospel means good news. That Jesus came, he died, and was raised on the third day. And by faith in him we will be saved. That is what Abraham was taught and everyone who is saved it is by faith.

Yes, then since we know the "gospel" or good knews was preached to Abraham and sons:

8And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

Therefore, Abraham knew of this good news and that it would come through "his seed" and this was the promise that was p***ed from Abraham to Isaac and from Isaac to Jacob and from Jacob to Judah and so on.

Good---so, you know that Abraham was taught "THE GOSPEL" and we also know that this "GOSPEL" was given via covenant also known as the law. In fact, when Abraham gave Isaac a blessing, he acted for in behalf of God (also known as the priesthood) to bestow this promise/law/covenant to his son.

[Billyray]

Therefore, Abraham knew of this good news and that it would come through "his seed" and this was the promise that was p***ed from Abraham to Isaac and from Isaac to Jacob and from Jacob to Judah and so on.

Sure that there would be a savior that would come through his seed. People in both the OT and the NT are saved by faith and this is only possible with the gospel i.e. that a savior would come to die for our sins and that by placing our faith in him we will be saved.

[BigJulie]

Sure that there would be a savior that would come through his seed. People in both the OT and the NT are saved by faith and this is only possible with the gospel i.e. that a savior would come to die for our sins and that by placing our faith in him we will be saved.

So, back to your original stipulation:


Originally Posted by Billyray
Romans 5:13 For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

When was there NO law IN the world?

You believe that they were under the law of the gospel from Adam to Moses, which would include baptism, laying on of hand for the gift of the Holy Ghost, Melchizedek priesthood and all the other ordinances. Where do you find all of these things pre Moses?

Since you obviously understand the promise made to Abraham, then you obviously understand that this promise was made via a covenant also known as a law. This is just one example of the gospel existing (also known as the law) prior to Moses.

[Billyray]

Good---so, you know that Abraham was taught "THE GOSPEL"
The gospel in the sense that there would be a savior that would come through his seed and that by faith you can be saved. But not using the LDS definition of the gospel.

[Billyray]

Since you obviously understand the promise made to Abraham, then you obviously understand that this promise was made via a covenant also known as a law.
What we are arguing about is whether or not they were under the law of the gospel that you believe that they were under. You say they were and I say they were not. And thus far you have failed to show me any evidence that this is the case. Are there verses that you have that you are not showing me?

[BigJulie]

The gospel in the sense that there would be a savior that would come through his seed and that by faith you can be saved. But not using the LDS definition of the gospel.


Originally Posted by Billyray
That is not what this is speaking about. There was no law pre Moses.


You are changing the subject here. You were trying to base Romans 5 on the fact that to you, there was "no law pre Moses"---which you have clearly now acknowledged was not the case.

So, your arguments as to why you believe Romans 5 to read the way you do, you have just undone.

[Billyray]

So, your arguments as to why you believe Romans 5 to read the way you do, you have just undone.

Not undone at all BigJ. Can you show me what laws they were under?

[Billyray]

You were trying to base Romans 5 on the fact that to you, there was "no law pre Moses"---which you have clearly now acknowledged was not the case.


BigJ I am not trying to take Romans 5 and make it fit into the OT. I am taking the OT and telling you that what you believe is wrong. There is no similarity to what you believe took place and what the Bible teaches.

[BigJulie]

Not undone at all BigJ. Can you show me what laws they were under?

Wow--only you can argue that the gospel existed during the time of Abraham and also argue that Abraham and company had no laws as such. Riiiggghhht!

[Billyray]

Wow--only you can argue that the gospel existed during the time of Abraham and also argue that Abraham and company had no laws as such. Riiiggghhht!
Because your definition of the gospel is different than my definition of the gospel.

Now can you show me what laws they were under?

[dberrie2000]

Because your definition of the gospel is different than my definition of the gospel.

Now can you show me what laws they were under?

Whatever laws they were under--the command to obedience to them were the same:

Genesis26:4-5--"And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;

5Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws."

[Billyray]

Whatever laws they were under--the command to obedience to them were the same:


Can you show me what laws and ordinances were required pre Moses?

[Billyray]

Whatever laws they were under--

Which were exactly?

[dberrie2000]

Whatever laws they were under--the command to obedience to them were the same:

Genesis26:4-5--"And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;

5Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws."


Can you show me what laws and ordinances were required pre Moses?

What difference would it make? The point is--your argument is brought to nil by the fact that Abraham lived under the law of Christ, and was given His grace due to Abraham's obedience to that law.

Your rant to see them written down is nothing but diversion from the fact you got trumped.

If we could show you those ordinances--you would just deny them, as you do those we show you in the NT:

Acts2:38--"Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."

Something the faith alone deny is even true for salvation.

[BigJulie]

Because your definition of the gospel is different than my definition of the gospel.

Now can you show me what laws they were under?

It doesn't matter if my definition of the gospel is different than your definition of the gospel--the point was, Abraham and children had the gospel and thereby had a law(s) as the law in Hebrew is just another way to say commandments or covenants, which clearly, Abraham had received a covenant from the Lord and clearly used His authority to authorize that covenant in others.

So, your ***umption that there was no law pre-Moses is clearly faulty.

[dberrie2000]

It doesn't matter if my definition of the gospel is different than your definition of the gospel--the point was, Abraham and children had the gospel and thereby had a law(s) as the law in Hebrew is just another way to say commandments or covenants, which clearly, Abraham had received a covenant from the Lord and clearly used His authority to authorize that covenant in others.

So, your ***umption that there was no law pre-Moses is clearly faulty.

Exactly! But then--Billy has a diversion that can detract from that reality.

[Billyray]

Exactly! But then--Billy has a diversion that can detract from that reality.
What laws were given and what ordinances were required pre Moses?

[BigJulie]

Dberrie--you know that Billyray no longer has a case when he begins to repeat his questions. You will see that happen often in this forum.

[Billyray]

It doesn't matter if my definition of the gospel is different than your definition of the gospel--
Sure it does because they were not under the gospel as you define gospel?

[dberrie2000]

Dberrie--you know that Billyray no longer has a case when he begins to repeat his questions. You will see that happen often in this forum.

Yup. I'm now figuring that out. When he starts his circling patterns--that means he has been cornered.

Such as his obsession with what ordinances Abraham had--as if that made one hill of potatoes difference. He was wrong, and got burned.

But, maybe another circle will solve all that.

[alanmolstad]

Dberrie--you know that Billyray no longer has a case when he begins to repeat his questions. You will see that happen often in this forum.

I have successfully found that there is an antidote to such foolishness....

[BigJulie]

i have successfully found that there is an antidote to such foolishness....

:) :d :)..
.
.
.

I will go look at the "hot topics" and see what you have to say. I enjoy what your posts.

[Billyray]

Yup. I'm now figuring that out. When he starts his circling patterns--that means he has been cornered.


Not at all DB. You guys believe something that is not in the Bible. It is up to you to prove it. You believe that pre Moses they lived under the law of the gospel which includes: baptism, laying on of hands for the gift of the holy ghost, Melchizedek priesthood, temple ordinances. These thing were not present pre Moses. It you think that I am wrong simply show me where they are taught in the OT pre Moses.

[Billyray]

Dberrie--you know that Billyray no longer has a case

I repeat questions because you will not answer my question.

Do you believe that pre Moses they:

1. Were baptized

2. Had laying on of hands for the gift of the holy ghost

3. Temple ordinances

4. Melchizedek priesthood from Adam through Moses

[Billyray]

Romans 5:13 For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

When was there NO law IN the world?

If they were under the law of the gospel then why the statement "sin is not imputed when there is no law"?

[Billyray]

Such as his obsession with what ordinances Abraham had--as if that made one hill of potatoes difference. He was wrong, and got burned.


I got burned? I must have missed that post. What ordinances were required of Abraham? Can you give me a list?

[Billyray]

"In its fulness, the gospel includes all the doctrines, principles, laws, ordinances, and covenants necessary for us to be exalted in the celestial kingdom. The Savior has promised that if we endure to the end, faithfully living the gospel, He will hold us guiltless before the Father at the Final Judgment (see 3 Nephi 27:16).

The fulness of the gospel has been preached in all ages when God's children have been prepared to receive it. In the latter days, or the dispensation of the fulness of times, the gospel has been restored through the Prophet Joseph Smith."
http://lds.org/study/topics/gospel?lang=eng


Adam to Moses lived they lived under the fulness of the gospel correct?

In its fulness, the gospel includes all the doctrines, principles, laws, ordinances, and covenants necessary for us to be exalted in the celestial kingdom. Can you show us where we can find these pre Moses?

[alanmolstad]

:) :d :)..
.
.
.

I will go look at the "hot topics" and see what you have to say. I enjoy what your posts.
http://www.waltermartin.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2541

[Billyray]

What difference would it make? The point is--your argument is brought to nil by the fact that Abraham lived under the law of Christ, and was given His grace due to Abraham's obedience to that law.

"In its fulness, the gospel includes all the doctrines, principles, laws, ordinances, and covenants necessary for us to be exalted in the celestial kingdom. The Savior has promised that if we endure to the end, faithfully living the gospel, He will hold us guiltless before the Father at the Final Judgment (see 3 Nephi 27:16).

Abraham did not live under the law of the gospel as you propose above. Why do you persist in saying that he did?

[Billyray]

. The question at hand is what makes you believe that this "faith" is devoid of obedience to Jesus Christ, when speaking of salvation?
Why do I believe that we are saved by placing our faith in Christ and not by our works? (BTW haven't we been over this dozens of times now?)


Ephesians 2
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9Not of works, lest any man should boast.

***us 3
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
What difference would it make? The point is--your argument is brought to nil by the fact that Abraham lived under the law of Christ, and was given His grace due to Abraham's obedience to that law.


"In its fulness, the gospel includes all the doctrines, principles, laws, ordinances, and covenants necessary for us to be exalted in the celestial kingdom. The Savior has promised that if we endure to the end, faithfully living the gospel, He will hold us guiltless before the Father at the Final Judgment (see 3 Nephi 27:16).

Abraham did not live under the law of the gospel as you propose above.

What's your evidence of that? It states that Abraham lived under the gospel, period. BTW--I have not made any claims other than Abraham lived under the gospel.

[Billyray]

It states that Abraham lived under the gospel, period.

"In its fulness, the gospel includes all the doctrines, principles, laws, ordinances, and covenants necessary for us to be exalted in the celestial kingdom. The Savior has promised that if we endure to the end, faithfully living the gospel, He will hold us guiltless before the Father at the Final Judgment (see 3 Nephi 27:16).

The fulness of the gospel has been preached in all ages when God's children have been prepared to receive it. In the latter days, or the dispensation of the fulness of times, the gospel has been restored through the Prophet Joseph Smith."
http://lds.org/study/topics/gospel?lang=eng


Do you believe that they were under the fulness of the gospel from Adam to Moses? What evidence do you have that they were under the fulness of the gospel during this time period?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
. The question at hand is what makes you believe that this "faith" is devoid of obedience to Jesus Christ, when speaking of salvation?


Why do I believe that we are saved by placing our faith in Christ and not by our works? (BTW haven't we been over this dozens of times now?)

The LDS believe that we are saved by exactly what the scripture states--grace. Faith does not save one. Works does not save one. It's what one receives through faith that saves--His grace.


Ephesians 2
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9Not of works, lest any man should boast.

And where do you find it within that scripture that faith is devoid of obedience to Jesus Christ?

[Billyray]

Faith does not save one. Works does not save one.

The only conclusion you can come to by your statement is that works and faith are not required for exaltation.

[Billyray]

And where do you find it within that scripture that faith is devoid of obedience to Jesus Christ?
it is not that it is devoid but rather that works do not contribute FOR salvation.

[Billyray]

Therefore, the ten commandments is actually clearly defined as a law different from the law given before meaning that what Moses received was something new compared to what Adam, Noah, Enoch, or Abraham received.


1. Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
2. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image.
3. Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain.
4. Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
5. Honour thy father and thy mother.
6. Thou shalt not kill.
7. Thou shalt not commit adultery.
8. Thou shalt not steal.
9. Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.
10. Thou shalt not covet.


What was new? Weren't these commandments required by those prior to Moses?

[dberrie2000]

1. Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
2. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image.
3. Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain.
4. Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
5. Honour thy father and thy mother.
6. Thou shalt not kill.
7. Thou shalt not commit adultery.
8. Thou shalt not steal.
9. Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.
10. Thou shalt not covet.


What was new? Weren't these commandments required by those prior to Moses?

Well--let's play your game--show us specifically where all these commandments are found prior to Moses.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
And where do you find it within that scripture that faith is devoid of obedience to Jesus Christ?


it is not that it is devoid but rather that works do not contribute FOR salvation.

Yes, Billyray--faith is devoid of any act of obedience to Jesus Christ, when it come to eternal life in the faith that is alone theology.

Hebrews5:9--"And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;"

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
. The question at hand is what makes you believe that this "faith" is devoid of obedience to Jesus Christ, when speaking of salvation?


Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
Why do I believe that we are saved by placing our faith in Christ and not by our works? (BTW haven't we been over this dozens of times now?)


The LDS believe that we are saved by exactly what the scripture states--grace. Faith does not save one. Works does not save one. It's what one receives through faith that saves--His grace.


The only conclusion you can come to by your statement is that works and faith are not required for exaltation.

But that is always the conclusion of a theology that has a faith that is alone for salvation theology.

What is it about the scriptures that have God giving His grace to those who obey Him that we are not understanding?

His grace for our obedience(faith in Christ) is a theology that states we are not saved by faith, nor any obedience. We are saved by His grace. And that grace goes to those who obey Christ.(faith in Christ).

This is the same argument you make about repentance and water baptism for the remission of sins.

Your claim is that water baptism does not wash away sins. I agree. But the scriptures plainly teach that obedience to Christ by repenting and being water baptized is for the remission of sins--God granting His grace to those who obey Him.

Acts2:38--"Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."

What is it about repentance and water baptism that you do not consider obedience to Jesus Christ, and what is it about the remission of sins that you do not consider the grace of Jesus Christ?

The LDS consider it just what it states--His grace for our obedience to Him. The LDS do not consider repentance nor the water that saves--only what is commanded for His grace unto the remission of sins.

[Billyray]

Well--let's play your game--show us specifically where all these commandments are found prior to Moses.
BigJ says that Moses received was something new. Were these commandments something new?

[Billyray]

Yes, Billyray--faith is devoid of any act of obedience to Jesus Christ, when it come to eternal life in the faith that is alone theology.


What do you do with all of the verses that say that we are saved when we place our faith in Christ to save us and that it is not because of our works? Why do you think you can simply ignore these verses?

[Billyray]

But that is always the conclusion of a theology that has a faith that is alone for salvation theology.

What is it about the scriptures that have God giving His grace to those who obey Him that we are not understanding?



I don't understand why your statement

"Faith does not save one. Works does not save one."

[dberrie2000]

dberrie----The LDS believe that we are saved by exactly what the scripture states--grace. Faith does not save one. Works does not save one. It's what one receives through faith that saves--His grace.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
The only conclusion you can come to by your statement is that works and faith are not required for exaltation.


Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
But that is always the conclusion of a theology that has a faith that is alone for salvation theology.

What is it about the scriptures that have God giving His grace to those who obey Him that we are not understanding?


I don't understand why your statement

"Faith does not save one. Works does not save one."

Because your theology does not allow you to understand it. And anyone who believes there is not any acts of obedience to Jesus Christ for His grace unto salvation has to play ******** to what is plainly taught in the scriptures.

What is it about the LDS believe they are saved by grace we are not understanding?

The scriptures teach that it is not faith, works, obedience, belief, or trust that saves. It is the grace of God. But it does state that which saves--His grace--goes to those who believe, obey, trust, and have faith in Christ. And I believe all those terms are integral components one to another.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
Well--let's play your game--show us specifically where all these commandments are found prior to Moses.


BigJ says that Moses received was something new. Were these commandments something new?

New or otherwise--please show us the specific commandments that Abraham obeyed, and specifically listed as all the commandments, prior to Moses.

That is the game you are playing, Billyray. So, let's play it.

The fact of the matter is--you cannot back up that request, because although there is the reference to the commandments, laws, and statutes--there is not the first word detailing exactly what they were.

Your diversion of trying to show that the scriptural claim that Abraham lived under the gospel is not the same gospel as defined by the LDS because the LDS can't go back and show every commandment or statue or law becomes a double-edged sword to you also.

The fact is--Abraham lived under the gospel of Jesus Christ, and all your diversion cannot change that, nor prove what commandments, statutes, or laws, specifically speaking, that Abraham lived under. Genesis covers millenniums, and only a precious few pages.

With that said--Romans4, when speaking of works and Abraham--differentiated the Mosaic Law from the gospel of Christ--not all works in general, for the scriptures state that Abraham was given the promises due to his obedience.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
Yes, Billyray--faith is devoid of any act of obedience to Jesus Christ, when it come to eternal life in the faith that is alone theology.


What do you do with all of the verses that say that we are saved when we place our faith in Christ to save us

I don't ignore the verses. I just do as the scriptures do--I add all the components that are interal to "faith in Christ" --obedience to Jesus Christ included.

[Billyray]

The scriptures teach that it is not faith, works, obedience, belief, or trust that saves. It is the grace of God. But it does state that which saves--His grace--goes to those who believe, obey, trust, and have faith in Christ. And I believe all those terms are integral components one to another.


***us 3
4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,

5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;


What is the basis of our salvation? And what role does works play according to the above verses?

[Billyray]

I don't ignore the verses. I just do as the scriptures do--I add all the components that are interal to "faith in Christ" --obedience to Jesus Christ included.

And when you include the verses that state that it is not based on our works how do you conclude that it is based on our works?

[Billyray]

It states that Abraham lived under the gospel, period.

"In its fulness, the gospel includes all the doctrines, principles, laws, ordinances, and covenants necessary for us to be exalted in the celestial kingdom. The Savior has promised that if we endure to the end, faithfully living the gospel, He will hold us guiltless before the Father at the Final Judgment (see 3 Nephi 27:16).

The fulness of the gospel has been preached in all ages when God's children have been prepared to receive it. In the latter days, or the dispensation of the fulness of times, the gospel has been restored through the Prophet Joseph Smith."
http://lds.org/study/topics/gospel?lang=eng


Do you believe that they were under the fulness of the gospel from Adam to Moses? What evidence do you have that they were under the fulness of the gospel during this time period?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
It states that Abraham lived under the gospel, period.


"In its fulness, the gospel includes all the doctrines, principles, laws, ordinances, and covenants necessary for us to be exalted in the celestial kingdom. The Savior has promised that if we endure to the end, faithfully living the gospel, He will hold us guiltless before the Father at the Final Judgment (see 3 Nephi 27:16).

The fulness of the gospel has been preached in all ages when God's children have been prepared to receive it. In the latter days, or the dispensation of the fulness of times, the gospel has been restored through the Prophet Joseph Smith."
http://lds.org/study/topics/gospel?lang=eng


Do you believe that they were under the fulness of the gospel from Adam to Moses? What evidence do you have that they were under the fulness of the gospel during this time period?

How are you relating this to the fact that Abraham lived under the gospel? What is your point?

[Billyray]

How are you relating this to the fact that Abraham lived under the gospel? What is your point?

Abraham didn't live under the gospel listed above. Do you think he did?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
I don't ignore the verses. I just do as the scriptures do--I add all the components that are interal to "faith in Christ" --obedience to Jesus Christ included.


And when you include the verses that state that it is not based on our works how do you conclude that it is based on our works?

That what is not based on our works? What does your "it" include?

My statement is that grace is based on faith, which includes, as it's integral component--obedience to Jesus Christ.

That does not mean we are saved by faith or works. Only that faith and works are necessary for what does save one, and are integral components one to another. His grace is what saves.

[Billyray]

That what is not based on our works? What does your "it" include?


Exaltation is based on faith and works.

[Billyray]

My statement is that grace is based on faith, which includes, as it's integral component--obedience to Jesus Christ.

Thus works contribute to exaltation according to you, but the scriptures tell us that our works don't contribute for salvation.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
How are you relating this to the fact that Abraham lived under the gospel? What is your point?


Abraham didn't live under the gospel listed above. Do you think he did?

It does not matter what I think. Abraham lived under the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Trying to disprove that due to the fact the Bible does not elaborate on all the commandments, laws, and ordinances that were given to Abraham is a losing argument.

To make my point--please prove exactly what laws, ordinances, and commandments Abraham was given. Billyray--you can't do it.

Your only defense is that all those commandments, laws, and ordinances are not spelled out in the Bible.

Bingo! Which means we just know that Abraham lived under the gospel., and that involved laws, ordinances, and commandments.

Which, if true, then that means that Abraham received of God's grace due to the fact that he obeyed His laws, ordinances, and commandments--rendering, once again--the faith that is alone for salvation false:

Genesis26:4-5--"And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;

5Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws."

That's it. Billyray. That is what we do have--and trying to take the road of diversion in accordance with we do not have will not make your case. It's only the fantasy of the faith alone.

But then, I understand your attempt to do so. It's all you have--relying on something that we don't have.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
My statement is that grace is based on faith, which includes, as it's integral component--obedience to Jesus Christ.


Thus works contribute to exaltation according to you, but the scriptures tell us that our works don't contribute for salvation.

Hebrews5:9--"And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;"

There is nothing in the scriptures that state that obedience to Jesus Christ is not necessary for His grace unto life. It states that eternal life is not because of obedience, but by His grace--but nothing stating that obedience is not necessary for His grace.

There is also nothing in the scriptures that state that faith is independent of our obedience to Jesus Christ. Even you have stated that:


Originally Posted by Billyray View Post--James clearly teaches that faith without works is dead which means that if we do not have works then we do not have true faith.

[Billyray]

There is nothing in the scriptures that state that obedience to Jesus Christ is not necessary for His grace unto life. It states that eternal life is not because of obedience, but by His grace--but nothing stating that obedience is not necessary for His grace.


***us 3
4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

According to these verses in ***us what role do works play in our salvation?

[Billyray]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Billyray View Post--James clearly teaches that faith without works is dead which means that if we do not have works then we do not have true faith.

But works do not contribute FOR salvation. Faith us what is required not works. This is evident with the thief who had faith and no works and was saved despite no works.

[dberrie2000]

But works do not contribute FOR salvation. Faith us what is required not works.

Grace is what is required for salvation.

Faith, as in obedience to Jesus Christ, is what is required for His grace.

[BigJulie]

But works do not contribute FOR salvation. Faith us what is required not works. This is evident with the thief who had faith and no works and was saved despite no works.

Faith without works is dead.

Billyray, once you give up the notion that it is your faith that saves you, then it makes perfect sense that it is not works that saves you either.

So, as you state you understand--it is God's grace and God's grace alone that saves you.

So, what does God tell us regarding who he gives his grace to? He says the faithful. But we know--faith without works is dead. So, those who say they have faith but then ignore what God tells them to do are lying. How can you say you believe someone and ignore what they tell you to do? You wouldn't.

So, what does the person do who wants to be saved? They believe and THAT means they do. So, one cannot say they have faith and not do--not possible. And that is why your trying to split hairs between faith and works is just not possible. As I said before show me the man who says he believes and then will not do and I will show you a liar.

[BigJulie]

Mat 21:28 ¶ But what think ye? A [certain] man had two sons; and he came to the first, and said, Son, go work to day in my vineyard.

Mat 21:29 He answered and said, I will not: but afterward he repented, and went.

Mat 21:30 And he came to the second, and said likewise. And he answered and said, I [go], sir: and went not.

Mat 21:31 Whether of them twain did the will of [his] father? They say unto him, The first. Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you.

Billyray, why does the one who does the will of his father, even though he said no, do better than the one who said he would and then didn't?

[Billyray]

Faith without works is dead.



Faith is what saves not works. The thief had faith and was saved despite any works.

[Billyray]

Mat 21:31 Whether of them twain did the will of [his] father? They say unto him, The first. Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you.


Matt 21
31Whether of them twain did the will of his father? They say unto him, The first. Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you.

32For John came unto you in the way of righteousness, and ye believed him not: but the publicans and the harlots believed him: and ye, when ye had seen it, repented not afterward, that ye might believe him.

The key is in verse 32. It is about belief/faith.

[BigJulie]

Faith is what saves not works. The thief had faith and was saved despite any works.

God is what saves, not faith or works. As noted before, the thief

1) Defended Christ
2) Confessed he was a sinner
3) Asked Christ to remember him.

You never answered me Billyray, would Christ have saved the thief he hung on the cross next to Christ and did nothing?

And, you have noted that a baby is not capable of having faith and yet you state you believe they are saved. Why do you believe and infant who died young would be saved if they have no faith if you think it is faith that saves?

P.S. I am not sure why on one hand you acknowledge that grace saves, but then keep repeating that it is faith that saves (see your bolded line above)

[BigJulie]

Matt 21
31Whether of them twain did the will of his father? They say unto him, The first. Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you.

32For John came unto you in the way of righteousness, and ye believed him not: but the publicans and the harlots believed him: and ye, when ye had seen it, repented not afterward, that ye might believe him.

The key is in verse 32. It is about belief/faith.

Yes, but do you see that the above verses directly tie "believing him" with doing the will of the Father?

31Whether of them twain did the will of his father? They say unto him, The first. Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you.

So, the publicans and the harlots, as Christ defines belief--did the will of the Father. First off---repentence. Does repentence require that you do anything? Yes or no?

[dberrie2000]

***us 3
4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

According to these verses in ***us what role do works play in our salvation?

The same role that obedience to Jesus Christ plays in the rest of the scriptures:

Acts2:38--"Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost"

Not by repentance and water baptism--but by His grace of the forgiveness of sins and His Holy Ghost--which repentance and baptism is commanded for.




Barnes' Notes on the Bible



By the washing of regeneration - In order to a correct understanding of this important p***age, it is necessary to ascertain whether the phrase here used refers to baptism, and whether anything different is intended by it from what is meant by the succeeding phrase - "renewing of the Holy Ghost." - The word rendered "washing" (λουτρόυ loutrou) occurs in the New Testament only in this place and in Ephesians 5:26, where also it is rendered "washing" - "That he might sanctify and cleanse it (the church) with the washing of water by the word." The word properly means "a bath;" then water for bathing; then the act of bathing, washing, ablution. P***ow and Robinson. It is used by Homer to denote a warm or cold bath; then a washing away, and is thus applied to the drink-offerings in sacrifice, which were supposed to purify or wash away sin. P***ow. The word here does not mean "laver," or the vessel for washing in, which would be expressed by λουτὴρ loutēr and this word cannot be properly applied to the baptismal font.

[B]The word in itself would naturally be understood as referring to baptism (compare notes at Acts 22:16), which was regarded as the emblem of washing away sins, or of cleansing from them. I say it was the emblem, not the means of purifying the soul from sin.

The "wasing of regeneration" is commonly thought to refer to water baptism.

[Billyray]

God is what saves, not faith or works.

Can you be saved by grace without faith AND works?

[Billyray]

God is what saves, not faith or works. As noted before, the thief

1) Defended Christ
2) Confessed he was a sinner
3) Asked Christ to remember him.


The thief did not have the works that you believe are required for exaltation.

[Billyray]

The same role that obedience to Jesus Christ plays in the rest of the scriptures:

Acts2:38--"Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost"


***us 3
4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Isn't baptism a work?

What does it say in ***us about works?

[BigJulie]

The thief did not have the works that you believe are required for exaltation.

Exaltation is a subset of salvation. I notice you like to do this---you like to speak of what it is takes to be saved and then when we discuss it, you switch it to exaltation.

So, which is it---do you believe the thief is exalted or saved or both. Why?

[BigJulie]

***us 3
4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Isn't baptism a work?

What does it say in ***us about works?

Paul is clarifying to ***us that it God's mercy that saves us---which by we are baptized and receive the Holy Ghost (a work)....and yet it is God's mercy that saves. So, Paul makes it clear that it is God who saves us and thereby, we can be baptized and receive the Holy Ghost.

[Billyray]

What does it say in ***us about works?


5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

This verse is clear BigJ God saved us NOT because of our works of righteousness.

[BigJulie]

5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

This verse is clear BigJ God saved us NOT because of our works of righteousness.

Yes, it clearly states that it is the mercy of God which saves us and thereby we can do the works of baptism and receive the Holy Ghost.

I have no argument with this. God saves...not faith, not works...God alone. But it is through God that we can have faith and thereby do the works of God, baptism and receive the Holy Ghost.

[Billyray]

Yes, it clearly states that it is the mercy of God which saves us and thereby we can do the works of baptism and receive the Holy Ghost.


That is not what it says at all BigJ. "Not by works of righteousness which we have done"

[BigJulie]

That is not what it says at all BigJ. "Not by works of righteousness which we have done"

Amazing you can ignore the whole rest of this verse---which states that we are saved by the mercy of God and then refers back to our works.

I agree that it is not our works that save us. I also agree that it is not our faith that saves us--but as this verse states, we are saved by the mercy of God. And then, it goes on to discuss faith and works as applied by the mercy of God or that it is by his mercy that our sins are cleansed through baptism and receiving the Holy Ghost.

[Billyray]

I agree that it is not our works that save us.

You don't agree with that at all BigJ. You do believe that works contribute to your exaltation.

[dberrie2000]

dberrie---The same role that obedience to Jesus Christ plays in the rest of the scriptures:

Acts2:38--"Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost"

Not by repentance and water baptism--but by His grace of the forgiveness of sins and His Holy Ghost--which repentance and baptism is commanded for.



***us 3
4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Isn't baptism a work?

Yes--baptism is a work. And the scriptures state that repentance and water baptism is for the remission of sins.

What is it about the remission of sins that you do not consider His grace for our obedience?


What does it say in ***us about works?

It states we are not saved by works, to which the LDS agree. But when we obey, we do receive God's grace, which does save, and the only thing that can save.

That is your onus, Billyray. To show where those who obey God do not receive of His grace.

[dberrie2000]

You don't agree with that at all BigJ. You do believe that works contribute to your exaltation.

The LDS do not believe there is any eternal life without obedience to Christ., anymore than you believe there is no eternal life without faith.

The point being, neither faith nor obedience saves us. His grace does.

No matter how you try to maintain that faith saves one.

BTW--what saves us in your theology--faith or His grace?

[Billyray]

The point being, neither faith nor obedience saves us. His grace does.

Can an adult with normal mental capacity be saved by grace without both faith and works?

[Billyray]

Yes--baptism is a work. And the scriptures state that repentance and water baptism is for the remission of sins.



So you would say that we are justified by works. Agree?

[dberrie2000]

Can an adult with normal mental capacity be saved by grace without both faith and works?

No. There is no such thing as faith without works except dead faith. Grace does not flow through dead faith.

Obedience to Jesus Christ is an integral component to Faith. To separate them would be likened to the result of removing a heart from a living human.

[BigJulie]

You don't agree with that at all BigJ. You do believe that works contribute to your exaltation.

And this is where the problem lies Billyray as you suspend your own logic and even what we are saying to continue in your own dialogue of what you think we believe and continue on that same point regardless of what we say, the verses we show you, the verses you show us that we show you do not say what you think they do and then, you call me a liar when your fail to make your point over and over again.

[Billyray]

Can an adult with normal mental capacity be saved by grace without both faith and works?


No.
So faith and works ARE required for exaltation.

[dberrie2000]

So you would say that we are justified by works. Agree?

Depends on what justification you are referring to--in the case of receiving the justification of all men in the Atonement--no. That was a free gift and all men have it, no faith or works required.

In the case of eternal life, as a personal reception--justification comes through our faith in Christ--which includes obedience to Jesus Christ as it's integral component.

[Billyray]

what you think we believe and continue on that same point regardless of what we say

I know that Mormonism teaches that faith AND works are an required for exaltation. Without them you will not be exalted.

[Billyray]

Depends on what justification you are referring to-


There are not multiple types of justification in that you do err.

[BigJulie]

I know that Mormonism teaches that faith AND works are an required for exaltation. Without them you will not be exalted.

You forget that Mormonism teaches us that it is by grace we are saved.

Dberrie, at this point, after all of our explanations, Billyray tries to show us we are wrong by stating that we don't believe what we believe. *sigh*

[Billyray]

In the case of eternal life, as a personal reception--justification comes through our faith in Christ--which includes obedience to Jesus Christ as it's integral component.

Bottom line you believe that you are justified by works.

[BigJulie]

Bottom line you believe that you are justified by works.

Dberrie, at this point, after all of our explanations, Billyray tries to show us we are wrong by stating that we don't believe what we state we believe. *sigh*

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
Can an adult with normal mental capacity be saved by grace without both faith and works?


No. There is no such thing as faith without works except dead faith. Grace does not flow through dead faith.

Obedience to Jesus Christ is an integral component to Faith. To separate them would be likened to the result of removing a heart from a living human.


So faith and works ARE required for exaltation.

Yes. That has never been argued by me. It's just not what saves one--obedience to Christ is the reason God extends His grace--through faith, which includes obedience to Christ.

Thus the scripture:

Ephesians2:8--"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:"

That is likened unto me asking you if you believed faith was required for eternal life.


The only connection left to answer now is--does faith have obedience to Christ as it's integral component?

[dberrie2000]

Dberrie, at this point, after all of our explanations, Billyray tries to show us we are wrong by stating that we don't believe what we state we believe. *sigh*

Those reading our posts do not overlook that point.

[Billyray]

Thus the scripture:

Ephesians2:8--"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:"


Ephesians 2
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

According to these verses what role does works such as baptism play in your salvation?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
In the case of eternal life, as a personal reception--justification comes through our faith in Christ--which includes obedience to Jesus Christ as it's integral component.


Bottom line you believe that you are justified by works.

Bottom line is just as I stated----justification comes through our faith in Christ--which includes obedience to Jesus Christ as it's integral component.

[Billyray]

Those reading our posts do not overlook that point.

I think that they will see that you guys are deceptive in your answers. Especially when you say not of works but works are required. This is double speak on your part.

[Billyray]

Bottom line is just as I stated----justification comes through our faith in Christ--which includes obedience to Jesus Christ as it's integral component.

Justification is by works in your world DB. Agree?

[dberrie2000]

Ephesians 2
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

According to these verses what role does works such as baptism play in your salvation?

Repentance and water baptism is the faith which grace flows through, just as the wire is the conduit which electricity flows through.

It's not the wire that illuminates the bulb--but try disconnecting the wire from the bulb and see how much light it produces.

[Billyray]

It is the faith which grace flows through, just as the wire is the conduit which electricity flows through.

It's not the wire that illuminates the bulb--but try disconnecting the wire from the bulb and see how much light it produces.

Ephesians 2
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

According to these verses what role does works such as baptism play in your salvation?

[BigJulie]

I think that they will see that you guys are deceptive in your answers. Especially when you say not of works but works are required. This is double speak on your part.

I think the critics of Mormonism arguments come down to this---Mormons lie about what they believe--what we tell you they believe is really what they believe.

I think this is what Dr. Mouw was referring to when he said that he was in a room listening to Walter Martin and when a young LDS man stood up crying and said---what you say is not true, we believe that we are saved by grace and WM replied, "see how they teach them to lie?"

*sigh*

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
Bottom line is just as I stated----justification comes through our faith in Christ--which includes obedience to Jesus Christ as it's integral component.



Justification is by works in your world DB. Agree?

As Julie stated--you start these circling patterns when you have nowhere else to go.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
Ephesians 2
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

According to these verses what role does works such as baptism play in your salvation?


Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
It is the faith which grace flows through, just as the wire is the conduit which electricity flows through.

It's not the wire that illuminates the bulb--but try disconnecting the wire from the bulb and see how much light it produces.


Ephesians 2
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

According to these verses what role does works such as baptism play in your salvation?

Billyray--you are in the circling patterns--please reread my post.

[Billyray]

Billyray--you are in the circling patterns--please reread my post.
Ephesians 2
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

According to these verses what role does works such as baptism play in your salvation?

Come on DB don't ignore these verses.

[Billyray]

As Julie stated--you start these circling patterns when you have nowhere else to go.

And you say that when you can't answer my questions. It is plainly obvious.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
Ephesians 2
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

According to these verses what role does works such as baptism play in your salvation?

Quote:

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
It is the faith which grace flows through, just as the wire is the conduit which electricity flows through.

It's not the wire that illuminates the bulb--but try disconnecting the wire from the bulb and see how much light it produces.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
Ephesians 2
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

According to these verses what role does works such as baptism play in your salvation?


dberrie-----you are in the circling patterns--please reread my post.


And you say that when you can't answer my questions. It is plainly obvious.

I say that when you start your circling pattern. What is it about my answer that you would like to inquire of me?

Circling is not a viable alternative.

[Billyray]

What is it about my answer that you would like to inquire of me?

Ephesians 2
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

According to these verses what role does works such as baptism play in your salvation?

[Billyray]

Circling is not a viable alternative.

I know when you say this you don't want to answer my question. This is simply a diversion on your part.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
Ephesians 2
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

According to these verses what role does works such as baptism play in your salvation?


Quote:

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
It is the faith which grace flows through, just as the wire is the conduit which electricity flows through.

It's not the wire that illuminates the bulb--but try disconnecting the wire from the bulb and see how much light it produces.


I know when you say this you don't want to answer my question. This is simply a diversion on your part.

Billyray--what is it about my answer we are not acknowledging?

[Billyray]

It is the faith which grace flows through, just as the wire is the conduit which electricity flows through.

It's not the wire that illuminates the bulb--but try disconnecting the wire from the bulb and see how much light it produces.



Billyray--what is it about my answer we are not acknowledging?
What role do your works including baptism play with salvation in light of the verses from Ephesians?

Ephesians 2
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

[dberrie2000]

What role do your works including baptism play with salvation in light of the verses from Ephesians?

Ephesians 2
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

I'm going to repost my answer that I know I have given three times:

Quote:

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
It is the faith which grace flows through, just as the wire is the conduit which electricity flows through.

It's not the wire that illuminates the bulb--but try disconnecting the wire from the bulb and see how much light it produces.

It's emboldened above, Billyray. The same as the last three times.

Come'on Billyray. At least make it hard for me. I really need a challenge.

[Billyray]

It is the faith which grace flows through,

Ephesians 2
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.


But this verse clearly says that it is NOT OF WORKS. Baptism is a work. So why do you think baptism contributes FOR salvation?

[Billyray]

. At least make it hard for me. I really need a challenge.

It is a challenge to get you to actually answer the question that was asked.

[dberrie2000]

Ephesians 2
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.


But this verse clearly says that it is NOT OF WORKS.

And it's not of faith either. It's by grace. So--do you believe that faith contributes to salvation?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
What role do your works including baptism play with salvation in light of the verses from Ephesians?

Ephesians 2
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.


dberrie----I'm going to repost my answer that I know I have given three times:

Quote:
Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
It is the faith which grace flows through, just as the wire is the conduit which electricity flows through.

It's not the wire that illuminates the bulb--but try disconnecting the wire from the bulb and see how much light it produces.
It's emboldened above, Billyray. The same as the last three times.

Come'on Billyray. At least make it hard for me. I really need a challenge.


It is a challenge to get you to actually answer the question that was asked.

Yeah, right. Again--what is it about my answer to your question--It is the faith which grace flows through, --that I need to repost it four times?

You can do it, Billyray. I have confidence in you. Throw me a challenge, other than recircling the wagons.

[Billyray]

Yeah, right. Again--what is it about my answer to your question--It is the faith which grace flows through,
So it is faith and not of works like it says in Ephesians.

[BigJulie]

So it is faith and not of works like it says in Ephesians.

No, it is grace that allows us to have faith and thereby works.


Ephesians 2
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Paul understands also that faith without works is dead--so he makes it clear that it is grace that saves us.

[Billyray]

And it's not of faith either. It's by grace.

When you say this I can only conclude that faith is not required.

[BigJulie]

When you say this I can only conclude that faith is not required.

Paul concludes it--and we conclude it as well as infants who die are saved without grace and without works.

[BigJulie]

When you say this I can only conclude that faith is not required.

Faith without works is dead. Grace saves. God requires faith and faith requires works.

[Billyray]

Grace saves. God requires faith and faith requires works.

So faith and works contribute for salvation. That is the only way I can read your statement.

[BigJulie]

So faith and works contribute for salvation. That is the only way I can read your statement.

Well, an infant who dies does not need faith or works. So, what "contributes for our salvation" is that we give all of our might, mind, and strength to God.

Hmmm, let me get this straight. Are you saying Billyray, that a person can be saved and not give their all to God?

[Billyray]

Are you saying Billyray, that a person can be saved and not give their all to God?

You expect to be exalted and not give your all to God.

[Billyray]

It is the faith which grace flows through, just as the wire is the conduit which electricity flows through.

Billyray--what is it about my answer we are not acknowledging?

Your answer does not state what part works play in your exaltation. Could you address that for me?

[Billyray]

I think the critics of Mormonism arguments come down to this---Mormons lie about what they believe--what we tell you they believe is really what they believe.


You believe that faith AND works contribute for exaltation yet you and DB are trying to sidestep this fact. Just admit it.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
What role do your works including baptism play with salvation in light of the verses from Ephesians?

Ephesians 2
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.


Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post

It is the faith which grace flows through, just as the wire is the conduit which electricity flows through.

Billyray--what is it about my answer we are not acknowledging?


Your answer does not state what part works play in your exaltation. Could you address that for me?

Try hard, Billyray. This is the fifth time.

Repentance and water baptism are the faith that grace flows through.

You know--the scripture that you posted above--""through faith;"

You do realize that you printed that scripture--right?

Repentance and water baptism are the faith that the grace flows through--the remission of sins.

Ephesians2:8--"For by grace are ye saved through faith;

The faith in that sentence is represented by repentance and water baptism--the grace flows thought that faith-- the remission of sins.

Acts2:38--"Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."

Billyray--I color coded it for your convenience. Match the black highlight with the black highlighted terms and the red with the red.

[Billyray]

Try hard, Billyray. This is the fifth time.

Repentance and water baptism are the faith that grace flows through.
That was actually the first time that you mentioned baptism not the fifth time.

What you really mean to say is that grace helps your keep the commandments. Isn't that correct?

[Billyray]

Repentance and water baptism are the faith that grace flows through.

And water baptism is a works that you do which is in conflict with what the verses in Ephesians 2 which plainly say "not of yourselves:" and "Not of works"

[BigJulie]

You believe that faith AND works contribute for exaltation yet you and DB are trying to sidestep this fact. Just admit it.

Billyray, I know it must be hard to accept that as much as you try to force what you think we believe on us---that what you say is just a misrepresentation of our beliefs as I can easily point to an infant who dies who is saved without faith and without works. Therefore, ultimately, it is Christ's atonement that saves and the gift of grace He gives to us. Now, if you want to ask what we believe Christ tells us regarding who He gives His grace to, we can go there if you would like.

[BigJulie]

And water baptism is a works that you do which is in conflict with what the verses in Ephesians 2 which plainly say "not of yourselves:" and "Not of works"

Because Paul is making sure believers understand that their works do not save them, but Christ does and it is because Christ does that they CAN have faith and thereby be baptized for a remission of their sins. Without this grace, works are useless and without faith works are useless. That is the point Paul is making.

[Billyray]

Billyray, I know it must be hard to accept that as much as you try to force what you think we believe on us---
APR. 1981 SALVATION: BY GRACE OR BY WORKS?
http://lds.org/ensign/1981/04/salvation-by-grace-or-by-works?lang=eng


". . .We Are Saved by Grace
In summary then, there is no need to go to extraordinary lengths to apologize for Paul, or try to explain away his statements on salvation by grace. We are saved by grace—saved by Christ’s love from physical and spiritual death; saved by Christ’s love from Adam’s fall and our own; saved from sin and transgression by the grace or gifts of God. The atoning power of God unto salvation is a freely available gift from him—but our works of righteousness are essential to bring the gift into power in our lives. . ."


Do you agree with the bolded part above?

[Billyray]

Because Paul is making sure believers understand that their works do not save them, but Christ does and it is because Christ does that they CAN have faith and thereby be baptized for a remission of their sins. Without this grace, works are useless and without faith works are useless. That is the point Paul is making.

No that is not the point he was making. His point is that works do not contribute FOR salvation.

[BigJulie]

APR. 1981 SALVATION: BY GRACE OR BY WORKS?
http://lds.org/ensign/1981/04/salvation-by-grace-or-by-works?lang=eng


". . .We Are Saved by Grace
In summary then, there is no need to go to extraordinary lengths to apologize for Paul, or try to explain away his statements on salvation by grace. We are saved by grace—saved by Christ’s love from physical and spiritual death; saved by Christ’s love from Adam’s fall and our own; saved from sin and transgression by the grace or gifts of God. The atoning power of God unto salvation is a freely available gift from him—but our works of righteousness are essential to bring the gift into power in our lives. . ."


Do you agree with the bolded part above?

Billyray, I know you are very good at taking a snipet out of context. You even put the.... and not the entire quote from the LDS ensign.

Why not give me the whole quote and we can go from there.

You do realize that Mormons believe everyone in the world is given the opportunity to have their sins remitted (cleansed) and enter into the presence of Christ, right? And you do understand that we believe that men will be judged according to their works, whether good or evil (as stated in Revelation) right?

[Billyray]

Billyray, I know you are very good at taking a snipet out of context.

APR. 1981 SALVATION: BY GRACE OR BY WORKS?
http://lds.org/ensign/1981/04/salvat...works?lang=eng


". . .We Are Saved by Grace
In summary then, there is no need to go to extraordinary lengths to apologize for Paul, or try to explain away his statements on salvation by grace. We are saved by grace—saved by Christ’s love from physical and spiritual death; saved by Christ’s love from Adam’s fall and our own; saved from sin and transgression by the grace or gifts of God. The atoning power of God unto salvation is a freely available gift from him—but our works of righteousness are essential to bring the gift into power in our lives. . ."

Do you agree with the bolded part? Without works do you get the grace?

[BigJulie]

APR. 1981 SALVATION: BY GRACE OR BY WORKS?
http://lds.org/ensign/1981/04/salvat...works?lang=eng


". . .We Are Saved by Grace
In summary then, there is no need to go to extraordinary lengths to apologize for Paul, or try to explain away his statements on salvation by grace. We are saved by grace—saved by Christ’s love from physical and spiritual death; saved by Christ’s love from Adam’s fall and our own; saved from sin and transgression by the grace or gifts of God. The atoning power of God unto salvation is a freely available gift from himbut our works of righteousness are essential to bring the gift into power in our lives. . ."

Do you agree with the bolded part?

Yes, it is through what we do that this power comes into our lives. But you ignore all the sentences regarding grace and what that means regarding our salvation and it is this grace that we are tapping into based on what we do because we believe faith without works is dead. In other words, you can't have faith and do nothing.

Here is the rest of the sentence you dotted out----

The atoning power of God unto salvation is a freely available gift from himbut our works of righteousness are essential to bring the gift into power in our lives. . ."

Sin brings alienation from God. The more we sin, the greater the alienation and the more difficult it becomes to effectively tap the power of God, which alone is sufficient to save us from our sins.

So, according to the description of what is means as the works of righteousness--the power of God alone is sufficient to save us from our sins.

[Billyray]

In other words, you can't have faith and do nothing.
And you can't have grace and thus exaltation unless you have works of righteousness. Recall that you are not saved by grace until AFTER ALL you can do. Works are a vital part of LDS exaltation.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
Repentance and water baptism are the faith that grace flows through.


And water baptism is a works that you do which is in conflict with what the verses in Ephesians 2 which plainly say "not of yourselves:" and "Not of works"

And if you check that verse--it is not of faith either. It is by grace one is saved.

And that through faith. What is your evidence that repentance and water baptism is not integral components of faith?

[dberrie2000]

And you can't have grace and thus exaltation unless you have works of righteousness. Recall that you are not saved by grace until AFTER ALL you can do. Works are a vital part of LDS exaltation.

I don't disagree with you--but how is that any different from the Biblical text:

Hebrews5:9--"And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;"

[BigJulie]

And you can't have grace and thus exaltation unless you have works of righteousness. Recall that you are not saved by grace until AFTER ALL you can do. Works are a vital part of LDS exaltation.

And you can't have grace and thus exaltation unless you have faith (if you are capable of having such) and faith without works is dead. Works are a vital part of the gospel of Jesus Christ--He is the one who teaches us to have faith in Him and that means following Him and doing what He says to do. Do you disagree? Do you think a person can have faith and not works?

Hebrews5:9--"And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;"

Are you arguing Billyray, that you can be saved without obeying Him?

[Billyray]

Works are a vital part of the gospel of Jesus Christ--

And I agree that works are vital for LDS especially with respect for exaltation.

[Jill]

Please remember to stay on topic...or else. ;)

[Billyray]

Please remember to stay on topic...or else. ;)

I think we have covered everything under the sun in this thread.

[BigJulie]

And I agree that works are vital for LDS especially with respect for exaltation.

No, works are a vital part of faith---something you seem to keep denying even though the scriptures clearly teach otherwise.

[Libby]

I think we have covered everything under the sun in this thread.

Yeah, I think we could just keep this one thread and get rid of all the rest of them. ;)

[Pa Pa]

http://www.blogtalkradio.com/waltermartindotcom/2011/11/06/the-maze-of-mormonismwhy-gov-romney-is-not-a-christia

This thread is about THEOLOGY and HISTORY, not politics. Romney's name is mentioned because he continues to insist he is a "Christian" when it can be proven outside of politics that he is NOT. Let's try it again and stay away from the insults, please.

Is this "ministry" a 501c?

[BigJulie]

Is this "ministry" a 501c?

You are right---if it is--then Jill may be in trouble with the IRS. Maybe this is worth reporting.

[akaSeerone]

You are right---if it is--then Jill may be in trouble with the IRS. Maybe this is worth reporting.And if you succeed in shutting down sites like this one how are you going to learn the Truth?

It is in your better interest to do everything you can to support this site and others like it otherwise you are going to remain in the dark believing Smith's lies.

Is that what you really want?

Andy

[BigJulie]

And if you succeed in shutting down sites like this one how are you going to learn the Truth?

It is in your better interest to do everything you can to support this site and others like it otherwise you are going to remain in the dark believing Smith's lies.

Is that what you really want?

Andy

The point is that when a "charity" is a 501c, they can't make a stand for a politician. That is why the SBC got in trouble with the IRS for telling its followers not to vote for Mitt in the last election. I think that is why Jill is trying to be careful to say this is not about politics, but about religious beliefs. She is walking a fine line in singling out a politician. Had she included Jon Huntsman in the mix or had she just talked about Mormons in general, but as you can see, she is specifically calling on Mitt's religion as a political candidate. There she might get herself in trouble.

And as far as this site telling the truth? No, this site promotes little more than gossip and sensationalizism. Should someone read this site and then walk into an LDS (Mormon) church, I don't know if they would recognize it as being the same thing as Walter Martin portrays.

[Decalogue]

Big Julie and the guy who needs to shave his chin...: This website is not a charity.
If you and the the other silly wabbit wants to report something to the IRS --- howzabout you report the "Corporation of The First Presidency of The L.D.S. " ?

Ask the IRS to investigate how many Corporate Boards those guys in the Big Headquarters Building in S.L.C. sit on each month and how much their stipend and stock portfolios are ... all the while claiming that they are a Church". :eek:

W.M.M. is a website to give reasons for the Christian Faith as found in the Holy Bible. It is an Apologetics ( reasons ) website to give ammunition/food/medicine/bandages for the Christian warrior who is defending the Biblical Christian gospel of The Lord Jesus Christ against the slings and arrows of the devil and his cronies.

It is also website for people who are trapped in cults and "isms" to come and get some answers , which they are afraid to ask about in their Ward , Kingdom Hall , Reading Room , or "group". A place to give them some hope for eternity , rather than trying to do enough good works and following a self-proclaimed prophet.

Big Julie and the other Mormon defenders on these Boards : You are a servant of your L.D.S. masters , and thus are serving their boss the Devil , the Father of lies , The Lord of the flies , the enemy of our souls.

Ask yourselves this : " Why don't the L.D.S. Seventies , The Twelve or one of the top three guys in the L.D.S. group come on this website and try and defend Mormonism ...?!? "

Repent this day of your sins , and your helping out the Evil one ... ( that means to make a "U-turn " start marching in the other direction. ) Bow your knee and heart to Jesus Christ and ask Him to forgive you this day , and trust in Him for Salvation.

[BigJulie]

[QUOTE=Decalogue;104058]Big Julie and the guy who needs to shave his chin...: This website is not a charity. It is deemed a charity if the way this site is funded is listed as a 501c.

That is what Pa Pa asked, that is all.

Decalogue---your dialogue sounds like it comes from the Salem witch hunts. "...your helping out the Evil one..." Oh brother.