Biblical and historical reasons why Mitt Romney is not a Christian

[Decalogue]

[QUOTE]

Decalogue---your dialogue sounds like it comes from the Salem witch hunts. "...your helping out the Evil one..." Oh brother.


:rolleyes: You do not know when to keep quiet do you ? { Or , in this case , when to keep your fingers away from the keyboard. }

Your proper response after reading my post above , would have been for you to do some self-examination . Some soul-searching.

Ask some questions about Joseph Smith's "First Vision Account". Instead of trying to defend Mormonism by insulting Christianity , and hacking away at the words of Holy Scripture , ask yourself why a supposed Angel of "God" would tell fibs about the Christian Churches , when Jesus Christ himself said that "... The gates of Hell will not stand against his Church...."

--- What you should do is like I said before ---> ask/write/call the headquarters building in Salt lake City and ask the Bigshots how many Corporation Board-of-Directors seats that they sit on ? How much money do they make ... while making fun of biblical Christian Pastors for getting paid by their local congregations ?

As for "Salem witch hunts' ... well , the Bible tells us that there were witches and practioners of 'evil' stuff in Bible times , and there are today people who still do that. Look in the mirror . It is you and the mormons on this Board that are doing the will of your "father" , and according to Scripture --- that 'father" is The Evil One. Only the Devil hisself could have invented L.D.S. mormonism.

It is mormonism that teaches that Joseph Smith must be professed as a "Prophet-of-God" before you can get into the Celestial heaven.

Biblical Christianity says that the ONLY way to get to Heaven is by repentance from sin and faith in Jesus Christ ! John 14:6 !

[dberrie2000]

Biblical Christianity says that the ONLY way to get to Heaven is by repentance from sin and faith in Jesus Christ ! John 14:6 !

Even that is a partial truth:

Acts2:38--"Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."

The faith alone have a really difficult time with that one--do they not?

[BigJulie]

[QUOTE=Decalogue;104173]


:rolleyes: You do not know when to keep quiet do you ? { Or , in this case , when to keep your fingers away from the keyboard. } I don't even know what to say to this.



As for "Salem witch hunts' ... well , the Bible tells us that there were witches and practioners of 'evil' stuff in Bible times , and there are today people who still do that. Look in the mirror . It is you and the mormons on this Board that are doing the will of your "father" , and according to Scripture --- that 'father" is The Evil One. Only the Devil hisself could have invented L.D.S. mormonism.

Yes, I am sure if I lived during the time of the Salem witch trials, you would have burned me at the stake.

Maybe if I had lived 160 years earlier, you would have tarred and feathered me, and been part of the mob sent to "exterminate" the Mormons.

I guess here, you will just have to tell me when to keep quiet. *sigh*

[Novato]

[QUOTE=BigJulie;104059]


:rolleyes: You do not know when to keep quiet do you ? { Or , in this case , when to keep your fingers away from the keyboard. }

Your proper response after reading my post above , would have been for you to do some self-examination . Some soul-searching.

Ask some questions about Joseph Smith's "First Vision Account". Instead of trying to defend Mormonism by insulting Christianity , and hacking away at the words of Holy Scripture , ask yourself why a supposed Angel of "God" would tell fibs about the Christian Churches , when Jesus Christ himself said that "... The gates of Hell will not stand against his Church...."

--- What you should do is like I said before ---> ask/write/call the headquarters building in Salt lake City and ask the Bigshots how many Corporation Board-of-Directors seats that they sit on ? How much money do they make ... while making fun of biblical Christian Pastors for getting paid by their local congregations ?

As for "Salem witch hunts' ... well , the Bible tells us that there were witches and practioners of 'evil' stuff in Bible times , and there are today people who still do that. Look in the mirror . It is you and the mormons on this Board that are doing the will of your "father" , and according to Scripture --- that 'father" is The Evil One. Only the Devil hisself could have invented L.D.S. mormonism.

It is mormonism that teaches that Joseph Smith must be professed as a "Prophet-of-God" before you can get into the Celestial heaven.

Biblical Christianity says that the ONLY way to get to Heaven is by repentance from sin and faith in Jesus Christ ! John 14:6 !

I don't respond much these days to the illiterate ravings of your ilk, however, when I read the unverifiable nonsense you have written here I am prompted to give some form of reply.

The real key here is that the true Gospel was never meant to be found within "biblical Christianity" . The only way to Truth is through the Holy Ghost's witness.

No LDS member would claim that the BoM is the only way to Truth, it is as imperfect as the Holy Bible because it is also the work of men.

Novato

[dberrie2000]

I don't respond much these days to the illiterate ravings of your ilk, however, when I read the unverifiable nonsense you have written here I am prompted to give some form of reply.

The real key here is that the true Gospel was never meant to be found within "biblical Christianity" . The only way to Truth is through the Holy Ghost's witness.

No LDS member would claim that the BoM is the only way to Truth, it is as imperfect as the Holy Bible because it is also the work of men.

Novato

Just one correction here--this was the post of Decalogue--not Julie--whom the post was credited to.

[Libby]

Just one correction here--this was the post of Decalogue--not Julie--whom the post was credited to.

Yeah, the software has been glitchy like that. I noticed it in some of my posts and others.

Edit: Btw, I agree with Novato that scripture cannot replace a real experience of God.

[BigJulie]

Yeah, the software has been glitchy like that. I noticed it in some of my posts and others.

Edit: Btw, I agree with Novato that scripture cannot replace a real experience of God.

I also agree that scripture is for the purpose of teaching us how to reach God---scripture is not there to replace God.

[James Banta]

I also agree that scripture is for the purpose of teaching us how to reach God---scripture is not there to replace God.

Yet the scripture is God word. And because God changes NOT.. The scripture then is the same now as it has always been and reflects the salvation of God as He first explained it.. Because it is His word it is as dependable as if he were standing before us telling us of Himself and his ways to our face.. IHS jim

[BigJulie]

Yet the scripture is God word. And because God changes NOT.. The scripture then is the same now as it has always been and reflects the salvation of God as He first explained it.. Because it is His word it is as dependable as if he were standing before us telling us of Himself and his ways to our face.. IHS jim

Yes, agree--the Bible is God's word---but anybody paying attention can see that the way the Bible has been read or what is meant by it has changed over the years which is why the Journal of Jewish Studies has an article which states that the belief that creation came from nothing is a belief that was influenced by Islam and Christianity after the death of Christ and is not historically a Jewish belief.

It is also why Catholism changed to Protestantism, etc.

[Libby]

Bibliolatry vs believing in Christ by Marcus Borg

http://afreshperspective-chuck.blogspot.com/2011/10/bible-as-lens.html

Excerpt:

One semester, a very bright Muslim engineering student took the course. A senior, he did so because he needed another humanities course for graduation and the cl*** fit his schedule. One day, after witnessing Borg’s interaction with the more conservative students, he said to him, “I think I understand what’s going on. You’re saying the Bible is like a lens through which we see God, and they’re (the inerrantists) saying that it’s important to believe in the lens.”

That is a good ****ogy. When I am asked if I believe the Bible my response is: As a Christian I believe (I trust in) in Jesus of Nazareth, the living Christ who is my Lord. I use the Bible as a means to nurture a transformative relationship with God, whom I know through Jesus. The Bible is a lens through which I see God and Jesus.


Good article.

I like Borg. He makes a lot of sense.

[James Banta]

Yes, agree--the Bible is God's word---but anybody paying attention can see that the way the Bible has been read or what is meant by it has changed over the years which is why the Journal of Jewish Studies has an article which states that the belief that creation came from nothing is a belief that was influenced by Islam and Christianity after the death of Christ and is not historically a Jewish belief.

It is also why Catholism changed to Protestantism, etc.

Please show where the meaning of the scripture has been changed in any way.. I deny that it has, there is no proof I have ever seen that confirms such a denial of the promises of Jesus.. Such a statement is akin to saying that the Church was ever abandon by God and allowed to be lost to the world.. For Jesus made a promise that His word (And He is God so all the Bible is His word) would never p*** away, and that He would be with us until the very end of the age. How can a church deny that the promises of Jesus were kept and still call it's self a Christian church? More PROOF that mormonism is NOT Christian..

You again use the knowledge and wisdom of men to show your anti Christ teaching that Jesus was nothing but a liar. A Journal of Jewish studies is just that the opinions of mere men.. The Bible says that Jesus made all things visible and invisible, things that are in heaven, and that are in earth, thrones, dominions, principalities, and powers: all things were created by Him, and for Him (Col 1:16).. What is there that exists that is not included in ALL things? So go ahead and use your references from the heart of mere men. I will rely on His word.. IHS jim

[James Banta]

Bibliolatry vs believing in Christ by Marcus Borg

http://afreshperspective-chuck.blogspot.com/2011/10/bible-as-lens.html

Excerpt:



Good article.

I like Borg. He makes a lot of sense.

Yes you would like someone that removed the powers of God from the Lord Jesus.. After all He isn't the only God in your mind We are all just as much God as he was right? This is why I doubt your salvation, your membership in His Church.. IHS jim

[BigJulie]

[QUOTE=James Banta;105778]Please show where the meaning of the scripture has been changed in any way.. I deny that it has, there is no proof I have ever seen that confirms such a denial of the promises of Jesus The proof can be seen in history that while the words of the Bible remain the same, how they are understood has changed. Do you still do infant baptism? Do you still have a bishop come confirm you with the Holy Ghost? These are all part of the Catholic church and yet, it has changed. Likewise, now we have some who believe that baptism means of the spirit only and not of water while others believe that the Biblical text supports woman pastors and others do not, etc. etc. etc.

..
Such a statement is akin to saying that the Church was ever abandon by God and allowed to be lost to the world.. For Jesus made a promise that His word (And He is God so all the Bible is His word) would never p*** away, and that He would be with us until the very end of the age. Actually, Christ's comment is that not one jot or ***tle of the law shall p*** away that they won't be fulfilled--acknowledging that the transcribers have not been perfect or read perfectly, but He will not forget what He has said. The proof of this can be seen in those transcribers denying Him as Jesus Christ. They wrote the law, but they did not comprehend the law. They had lost the living WORD for the word.

[Libby]

Yes you would like someone that removed the powers of God from the Lord Jesus..

He hasn't done that, James. That would be impossible.

[Libby]

They had lost the living WORD for the word.

Yes, exactly.

[Decalogue]

Yet the scripture is God word. And because God changes NOT.. The scripture then is the same now as it has always been and reflects the salvation of God as He first explained it.. Because it is His word it is as dependable as if he were standing before us telling us of Himself and his ways to our face.. IHS jim


James --- Amen ! Isaiah 40:8

Not one jot nor ***le ... Matthew 5:18

[BigJulie]

James --- Amen ! Isaiah 40:8

Not one jot nor ***le ... Matthew 5:18

Actually--learning Hebrew, I can definitely attest that one jot or ***tle has been lost from the scriptures we have today, but they have not been lost to God; and that is the point.

Do you realize that there are words that have a vav instead of a jot and do you know that the Torah has both the vav and the jot (prints the word) twice because it is not known which one is right? (And it is from this, that we get our other translations.)

[dberrie2000]

Please show where the meaning of the scripture has been changed in any way..

Anyone who has a religion that teaches that there is no obedience to Jesus Christ necessary for His grace unto salvation has not only changed the meaning of the scriptures--they have revised them to fit the very design of satan himself.



I deny that it has, there is no proof I have ever seen that confirms such a denial of the promises of Jesus.. Such a statement is akin to saying that the Church was ever abandon by God and allowed to be lost to the world..For Jesus made a promise that His word (And He is God so all the Bible is His word) would never p*** away, and that He would be with us until the very end of the age.

When you refer to "us"--would that be the Catholics, the Lutherans, the Baptists--who?


How can a church deny that the promises of Jesus were kept and still call it's self a Christian church?

And how can one read the Bible and get out of it that God had dozens of different denominations teaching conflicting doctrines without the foundation of the living apostles of Christ? Just where do you find that in the Bible NT?

[Decalogue]

Do you realize that ...

Do you not realize that you just keep talking yourself into a Christless eternity ?

I mentioned Matthew 5:18 --- spoken by The Lord Jesus Himself... and true to your L.D.S. upbringing , you have just called The King of Kings a liar.

Choose this day whom ye shall serve !

The Blessed Messiah who was nailed to a cross to pay for your sins , or will you continue to follow the lies of a of a blasphemer , water-witcher and buried treasure digger and serial adulterer ?!?

[BigJulie]

Do you not realize that you just keep talking yourself into a Christless eternity ?

I mentioned Matthew 5:18 --- spoken by The Lord Jesus Himself... and true to your L.D.S. upbringing , you have just called The King of Kings a liar.

Choose this day whom ye shall serve !

The Blessed Messiah who was nailed to a cross to pay for your sins , or will you continue to follow the lies of a of a blasphemer , water-witcher and buried treasure digger and serial adulterer ?!?

I am not calling Christ a liar at all---just realizing that you misintrepret His words. His point is that HE knows what He has said regardless of the accuracy of the recording. In fact, based on what I have learned regarding the "jots" and "vavs"---Christ's words ring all the more true.

[Mesenja]

I am going to ask all of the Mormon posters on here--and any poster for that matter, to read 2 Timothy chapter 2. In fact,it is good to read all of 2 Timothy--then pray about it and decide if you still want to post here.

Jill wants to define our faith in Jesus Christ for us. She wants to define Mitt Romney's faith for him. I say, let us all act according to what we read and pray about and act on that.

2 Timothy 2:16-17 But shun profane [and] vain babblings:for they will increase unto more ungodliness. And their word will eat as doth a canker...

And I hope that those who vote for our president,do so with prayer.

Yes it's truly frightening


“There is nothing more frightful than ignorance in action.” Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

[Billyray]

Yes it's truly frightening

What is truly frightening?

[Mesenja]

Here's a good article BigJulie


Mormons not Christian? That's a fallacy of equivocation (http://www.deseretnews.com/article/700189548/Mormons-not-Christian-Thats-a-fallacy-of-equivocation.html) Published:Thursday,Oct. 20,2011 5:00 a.m. MDT By Daniel C. Peterson,For the Deseret News

[Billyray]

Here's a good article BigJulie

Here is a quote.

"Critics often accuse us of deceptively claiming to be traditional Christians, and puzzled outsiders sometimes ask why we claim to be Christians while rejecting certain doctrines and traditional creeds."


We know that you guys don't claim to be traditional Christians. Why would you because you believe in different gods, a different gospel, and you believe that you can become a god which is foreign to traditional Christianity.

[Libby]

I read that article awhile back. It's a good one. I always read Dr. Peterson's articles. They're almost always insightful.


Excerpt:

After endorsing Rick Perry at the "Values Voter Summit" earlier in October, Baptist pastor Robert Jeffress defended his denunciation of Mormonism with a pretty typical specimen of equivocating language: Mitt Romney, he said, is "not a Christian" because he "doesn't embrace historical Christianity."

His denunciation presumes, falsely, that "Christianity" and "historical Christianity" (the Christianity defined at Nicea and other councils) are synonymous, and that to reject the latter entails rejecting the former, too.

[Billyray]

I read that article awhile back. It's a good one. I always read Dr. Peterson's articles. They're almost always insightful.

"Critics often accuse us of deceptively claiming to be traditional Christians"

Libby do you think this statement Danny is insightful or deceptive?

[Libby]

"Critics often accuse us of deceptively claiming to be traditional Christians"

Libby do you think this statement Danny is insightful or deceptive?

It's truthful. It's very common for Christians to accuse Mormons of trying to "appear" mainstream. There is often talk about how the church deceives people by trying to look like "traditional" Christianity.

But, the bottomline is that Mormonism gets rejected by some, in traditional Christianity, based on criteria and standards from traditional Christianity, which LDS have never claimed. That does not, however, exclude LDS from the broader umbrella of Christianity.

[dberrie2000]

"Critics often accuse us of deceptively claiming to be traditional Christians"

Libby do you think this statement Danny is insightful or deceptive?


Just a note here. When one states "traditional" or "orthodox" Christianity--that has to be defined in order to reflect a correct relationship of meaning.

That is usually a meaning that reflects the commonly accepted beliefs of Christianity today--not Biblical Christianity.

Sects such as faith alone cannot match their theology with Biblical Christianity, but they are accepted as the orthodox or traditional state of Christianity.

What is taught and practiced within the Biblical NT--the LDS hold in common those doctrines. The faith alone do not.

[Billyray]

What is taught and practiced within the Biblical NT--the LDS hold in common those doctrines.

Like temple marriage?

Like becoming a god?

Like working your way to heaven?

Like a temple for the NT church?

Like Aaoronic and Melchizedek priesthood among members of the NT church?

Like a mother in heaven?

Like you being the brother of Jesus and Satan?

Etc.

[Billyray]

It's truthful. It's very common for Christians to accuse Mormons of trying to "appear" mainstream. There is often talk about how the church deceives people by trying to look like "traditional" Christianity.

The whole reason that Christians say that Mormons are not Christian is because they don't resemble any of the mainstream Christian churches and doctrine.

[Libby]

The whole reason that Christians say that Mormons are not Christian is because they don't resemble any of the mainstream Christian churches and doctrine.

That's not really true. There are plenty of parallels. Some Christians just do not wish to acknowledge them.

[Billyray]

That's not really true. There are plenty of parallels. Some Christians just do not wish to acknowledge them.

Come on Libby who do you think you are kidding?

If Mormonism was close to Christianity then Christianity would welcome them but they don't and the reason they don't is because Mormonism teaches a completely different gospel and a completely different god.

[Libby]

Come on Libby who do you think you are kidding?

If Mormonism was close to Christianity then Christianity would welcome them but they don't and the reason they don't is because Mormonism teaches a completely different gospel and a completely different god.

Did I say anything about being "close" to traditional Christianity?? You do have a way of twisting words, Billy. That's not a good thing.

I said, there are some parallels...and there ARE. LDS follow and believe in the same Jesus in the Bible that you do...the Jesus who was born in Bethlehem and who suffered and died on Calvary..(whether you want to acknowledge that or not). Same Jesus, with some different beliefs about him.

[Libby]

If Mormonism was close to Christianity then Christianity would welcome

Many conservative Christians don't even accept Catholicism as "Christian", Billy. Some are, notoriously, very narrow in their definition of Christianity.

[Billyray]

Many conservative Christians don't even accept Catholicism as "Christian", Billy.

And how many Christians accept Mormons as fellow Christians?

And why is that do you think?

[Libby]

And how many Christians accept Mormons as fellow Christians?

And why is that do you think?

Christians or Conservative Christians?

Why? Because LDS (and others) do no agree with their basic understanding/interpretation/definition of Christianity.

[Billyray]

Why? Because LDS (and others) do no agree with their basic understanding/interpretation/definition of Christianity.

Because Mormonism and Christianity are polar opposites.

[Libby]

Because Mormonism and Christianity are polar opposites.

Some big differences, yes, but not polar opposites, at all. And, yet, LDS, given their big differences with mainstream, still do not deny their (mainstream's) Christianity. Why do you think that is?

[Billyray]

Some big differences, yes, but not polar opposites, at all.

You may not think they are polar opposites but I do.

[Billyray]

And, yet, LDS, given their big differences with mainstream, still do not deny their (mainstream's) Christianity. Why do you think that is?

I am not sure what you mean can you rephrase it?

[Libby]

I am not sure what you mean can you rephrase it?

All I'm saying, Billy, is that the LDS Church allows others the ***le of "Christian"....they don't try to say that, those with whom they disagree, are not Christian. At least, not the contemporary LDS Church. I'm sure you can dig something up from the past that will have someone saying differently.

[Billyray]

All I'm saying, Billy, is that the LDS Church allows others the ***le of "Christian"....they don't try to say that, those with whom they disagree, are not Christian.....
1 Nephi 14
10 And he said unto me: Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the ***** of all the earth.

[Libby]

1 Nephi 14
10 And he said unto me: Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the ***** of all the earth.

Yes, I think we've had that conversation, already. The First Counselor in my Ward said that the Church of the Lamb includes many who are not currently LDS....and the church of the devil may very well include those who are currently LDS. (in a nutshell)

I know for a fact that LDS do recognize other Christian denominations as Christian.

[Billyray]

Yes, I think we've had that conversation, already. The First Counselor in my Ward said that the Church of the Lamb includes many who are not currently LDS....and the church of the devil may very well include those who are currently LDS. (in a nutshell)

I know for a fact that LDS do recognize other Christian denominations as Christian.
1. Which church is the Church of the lamb of God?

2. Which churches fall under the church of the devil?

[Billyray]

and the church of the devil may very well include those who are currently LDS.

So some LDS belong to the church of the Devil?

[Libby]

So some LDS belong to the church of the Devil?

According to what I was taught, yes. Those who follow and obey Christ belong to the Church of the Lamb. Those who do not, belong to the other.

[Billyray]

According to what I was taught, yes. Those who follow and obey Christ belong to the Church of the Lamb. Those who do not, belong to the other.
So every person on this board belongs to the Church of the lamb of God and we are all going to be exalted?

[Libby]

So every person on this board belongs to the Church of the lamb of God and we are all going to be exalted?

Within Mormon theology that is a distinct possibility. :)

[Billyray]

Within Mormon theology that is a distinct possibility. :)

If that is the case then why do you think that they had Lucifer hiring a Christian minister to convert people to his religion in the temple ceremony pre-1990?

[Libby]

If that is the case then why do you think that they had Lucifer hiring a Christian minister to convert people to his religion in the temple ceremony pre-1990?

I never, personally, witnessed that, but I would guess that the reasoning was that, once you have the "fulness", only satan could cause you to go to something less.

[Mesenja]

You do have a way of twisting words,Billy. That's not a good thing.

Billy has that talent

[Billyray]

I never, personally, witnessed that, but I would guess that the reasoning was that, once you have the "fulness", only satan could cause you to go to something less.

So Lucifer's church where he hires Christian ministers to convert people is the Church of the Lamb of God according to Mormon thinking?

[Libby]

So Lucifer's church where he hires Christian ministers to convert people is the Church of the Lamb of God according to Mormon thinking?

Huh?

Sorry, but that is making no sense, to me.

[Billyray]

Huh?

Sorry, but that is making no sense, to me.
Why doesn't that make sense to you?

Define your concept of the church of the devil.

[Billyray]

Huh?

Sorry, but that is making no sense, to me.

Here is a reminder


So every person on this board belongs to the Church of the lamb of God and we are all going to be exalted?

Within Mormon theology that is a distinct possibility. :)
List what church is the church of the lamb of God.

List churches that fall under the church of the devil.

[Libby]

The two churches are not specific denominations, Billy. I already explained that. In simple terms, they are made up of those "individuals" who either embrace Christ or reject him.

Those individuals will belong to a lot of different denominations, with people from both the church of the devil and the Church of the Lamb of God within ALL of those denominations, including Mormonism.

[Billyray]

The two churches are not specific denominations, Billy.

Come on Libby what Mormon really believes this?

Do you believe from the LDS point of view that there is one true church?

[Libby]

Come on Libby what Mormon really believes this?

Do you believe from the LDS point of view that there is one true church?

Here on earth, yes, there is one true church, per LDS theology. But, in the broader picture (into the eternities) that "church" becomes much more inclusive. That's the whole purpose of Temple work.

[Billyray]

Here on earth, yes, there is one true church, per LDS theology. But, in the broader picture (into the eternities) that "church" becomes much more inclusive. That's the whole purpose of Temple work.

But is that a different church or the same church?

When you say more inclusive do you believe the Mormon church and the Catholic church are both the true church in the eternities?

[Billyray]

Here on earth, yes, there is one true church. . .

So on earth what church is the church of the lamb of God?

[Libby]

So on earth what church is the church of the lamb of God?

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints would be considered the truest church on the planet and the only one authorized to do saving ordinances...BUT, I think most would agree that there are, potentially, members of the "Church of the Lamb" in every single church and religion on the planet.

This issue is not as simple as you are trying to make it, Billy.

[Billyray]

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints would be considered the truest church on the planet and the only one authorized to do saving ordinances...BUT, I think most would agree that there are, potentially, members of the "Church of the Lamb" in every single church and religion on the planet.
Libby this is not a difficult question. It seems in your zeal to try and defend Mormonism you are not being very honest with me here.

What church is the church of the lamb of God?

[Libby]

Libby this is not a difficult question. It seems in your zeal to try and defend Mormonism you are not being very honest with me here.

What church is the church of the lamb of God?

Billy, I'm getting a little tired of you questioning my honesty. I may be mistaken in some things, but I am never intentionally dishonest.

I don't know what you were taught about The Church of the Lamb, but I do know what I was taught, in the LDS Church, and no one ever told me that only those who belonged to the LDS church, while on this earth, were the only members of the Church of the Lamb of God. Just the opposite. I have told you exactly what I was taught in the church. If you have something different to present, then by all means present it. I have searched lds.org and really could not find anything definitive on the subject, other than the actual scriptures in 1 Nephi.

[Billyray]

I don't know what you were taught about The Church of the Lamb, but I do know what I was taught, in the LDS Church, and no one ever told me that only those who belonged to the LDS church, while on this earth, were the only members of the Church of the Lamb of God.

Yet you were taught that the LDS is the only true church. And that only the LDS members could be exalted. And the LDS church has the priesthood authority which is the only true authority on earth. And that any ordinance such as baptism by any other church wad invalid and had to be repeated by someone who held authority in the LDS church. Coupled with the teachings in the temple pre 1990 that lucifer hired a Christian minister to convert them to his church. Tell me which church on the earth is the church of the lamb of god?

[Billyray]

". . .Elder Bruce R. McConkie explained that “the ***les church of the devil and great and abominable church are used to identify all churches or organizations of whatever name or nature—whether political, philosophical, educational, economic, social, fraternal, civic, or religious—which are designed to take men on a course that leads away from God and his laws and thus from salvation in the kingdom of God” ( Mormon Doctrine, pp. 137–38). . ."
http://ins***ute.lds.org/manuals/Doctrine-and-Covenants-ins***ute-student-Manual/dc-in-011-18.asp

Libby which churches fit the above description for the church of the devil?

[Billyray]

". . .Clearly, whatever denominational name we choose to give it, the earliest apostate church and the great and abominable church that Nephi and John describe are identical. The fact is, we don’t really know what name to give it. I have proposed hellenized Christianity, but that is a description rather than a name.

The historical abominable church of the devil is that apostate church that replaced true Christianity in the first and second centuries, teaching the philosophies of men mingled with scriptures. It dethroned God in the church and replaced him with man by denying the principle of revelation and turning instead to human intellect. As the product of human agency, its creeds were an abomination to the Lord, for they were idolatry: men worshipping the creations, not of their own hands, but of their own minds. . ."
http://lds.org/ensign/1988/01/warring-against-the-saints-of-god?lang=eng


Above this author gives information about the historical church of the devil. And note it is a church not a vague group of people that span all denominations.

[BigJulie]

As usual, Billyray, you have taken so much out of context, it is amazing. I hope people will go read the whole Ensign article you provided rather than your little snippet that in an of itself is misleading.

Here is another quote from the Ensign.

"In the historical sense, though, only one en***y can be the great and abominable church. Well-intentioned churches would thus not qualify as the mother of abominations described in 1 Nephi 13. They do not slay the saints of God nor seek to control civil governments nor pursue wealth, luxury, and sexual immorality."

And another:

"The word church (Hebrew qahal or edah; Greek ekklesia) had a slightly broader meaning anciently than it does now. It referred to an ***embly, congregation, or ***ociation of people who bonded together and shared the same loyalties. Thus, the term was not necessarily restricted to religious ***ociations; in fact, in Athens the Greeks used the term to denote the legislative ***embly of government."

[Billyray]

As usual, Billyray, you have taken so much out of context, it is amazing.

What amazes me is the denial that LDS members have today over this issue that was not the case when I was LDS.

Let me ask you a couple of questions.

1. Do you believe that there was a specific historical church that is the church of the devil as described in the Ensign?

2. Do you believe BRM quote below?

". . .Elder Bruce R. McConkie explained that “the ***les church of the devil and great and abominable church are used to identify all churches or organizations of whatever name or nature—whether political, philosophical, educational, economic, social, fraternal, civic, or religious—which are designed to take men on a course that leads away from God and his laws and thus from salvation in the kingdom of God” ( Mormon Doctrine, pp. 137–38). . ."

http://ins***ute.lds.org/manuals/Doc...-in-011-18.asp

[Libby]

What amazes me is the denial that LDS members have today over this issue that was not the case when I was LDS.

Let me ask you a couple of questions.

1. Do you believe that there was a specific historical church that is the church of the devil as described in the Ensign?

2. Do you believe BRM quote below?

". . .Elder Bruce R. McConkie explained that “the ***les church of the devil and great and abominable church are used to identify all churches or organizations of whatever name or nature—whether political, philosophical, educational, economic, social, fraternal, civic, or religious—which are designed to take men on a course that leads away from God and his laws and thus from salvation in the kingdom of God” ( Mormon Doctrine, pp. 137–38). . ."

http://ins***ute.lds.org/manuals/Doc...-in-011-18.asp

Do you believe McConkie meant ALL CHURCHES (other than LDS) were "leading people away from God"? Certainly doesn't appear that way to me...and I know for a fact that is not taught in the church today.

[Billyray]

Do you believe McConkie meant ALL CHURCHES (other than LDS) were "leading people away from God"?

Yep


. . .

[Libby]

I don't see him saying that. I think you might be reading into it.

The link for your article doesn't work, btw (for me, anyway).. I'll have to see if I can google it.

I do know Bruce McConkie has said things that were very controversial and things he has even taken back, at times. But, I don't really see what you are seeing, in these snippets you have provided.

[Libby]

How long have you been out of the LDS Church, Billy?

I have only been out for a couple of years.

[Billyray]

The link for your article doesn't work, btw (for me, anyway).. I'll have to see if I can google it.



http://ins***ute.lds.org/manuals/Doctrine-and-Covenants-ins***ute-student-Manual/dc-in-011-18.asp

[Billyray]

I don't see him saying that. I think you might be reading into it.


"which are designed to take men on a course that leads away from God and his laws and thus from salvation in the kingdom of God”

Don't ALL churches teach things that lead people off course when looking at it from the LDS point of view?

[Billyray]

How long have you been out of the LDS Church, Billy?

I have only been out for a couple of years.

I left more than 10 years ago.

[Billyray]

As usual, Billyray, you have taken so much out of context, it is amazing.

J answer these questions

1. Which church is the church of the lamb ig god?

2. Which churches fall under the heading OT the church of the devil?

[Libby]

http://ins***ute.lds.org/manuals/Doctrine-and-Covenants-ins***ute-student-Manual/dc-in-011-18.asp

Thanks. This first statement fairly well reflects what I have been saying.


The use of the word church to describe Satan and his followers has confused some because they think of the term in the more limited sense of a specific religious organization. But if one thinks of the phrase “the church and kingdom of God,” one has a better concept of what is meant by the church of the devil. It is his kingdom, the sphere of his influence, the whole of his area of power.

That is you, Billy. You are mistaking the two churches for specific religious organizations, when actually they are more accurately described as "spheres of influence".

Have to run for now.

[Billyray]

That is you, Billy. You are mistaking the two churches for specific religious organizations, when actually they are more accurately described as "spheres of influence".


The church of the devil isn't a specific organization it is ". . .all churchES or organizations of whatever name or nature—whether political, philosophical, educational, economic, social, fraternal, civic, or religious—which are designed to take men on a course that leads away from God and his laws and thus from salvation in the kingdom of God” ( Mormon Doctrine, pp. 137–38). . ."

Now tell me Libby which churches fall under the category of the church of the devil using this criteria?

This really is not that hard of a question which makes me wonder why you are having such a difficult time with it.

[Billyray]

". . .This definition explains why Nephi was taught that “there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, the other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church” ( 1 Nephi 14:10 ).. . ."
http://ins***ute.lds.org/manuals/Doctrine-and-Covenants-ins***ute-student-Manual/dc-in-011-18.asp

Libby do you believe that the church of the Lamb of God is the LDS church?


How do you become a member or "belongeth" to the church of the Lamb of God?

[Libby]

Back to the subject of this thread, for a second, because I read an article this morning that relates. It is political, but has to do with Mitt Romney and Mormonism.

Gingrich IA Political Director Resigns after “Cult of Mormon” Comments Go Public (http://www.religiondispatches.org/dispatches/joannabrooks/5496/gingrich_ia_political_director_resigns_after_%E2%8 0%9Ccult_of_mormon%E2%80%9D_comments_go_public/)


It’s official: it is no longer acceptable to call the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, the fourth largest religious ins***ution in the United States, a church with 7 million members in the US and 14 million members around the world, a “cult.”

That’s the message Newt Gingrich sent when he fired his newly-hired Iowa political director Craig Bergman after it was revealed that Bergman had proposed a national crusade against the “cult of Mormon” in an Iowa focus group last week.

[Libby]

The church of the devil isn't a specific organization it is ". . .all churchES or organizations of whatever name or nature—whether political, philosophical, educational, economic, social, fraternal, civic, or religious—which are designed to take men on a course that leads away from God and his laws and thus from salvation in the kingdom of God” ( Mormon Doctrine, pp. 137–38). . ."

Now tell me Libby which churches fall under the category of the church of the devil using this criteria?

This really is not that hard of a question which makes me wonder why you are having such a difficult time with it.

Billy, I really think you are the one who is not understanding. The answer to your question is not "any and all churchES or organizations that are NOT LDS", as you seem to be interpreting this statement, but rather (the answer is) "any and all churches or organizations which are designed to take men on a course that leads away from God". No doubt there are a few churches that may actually be designed to do just that, but I would say relative few, as compared to those which actually encourage a belief in God/Christ and his moral laws.

McConkie, himself, explains that the two churches are a "sphere of influence", not any organized church, per se.

I still think you are reading in your own interpretation of what he is saying. I see his quote as very much in sync with what I was taught in Gospel Doctrine (by our First Counselor in the Bishopric, who was very knowledgable and familar with LDS doctrine...so, I certainly trust his interpretation over yours).

[Billyray]

but rather (the answer is) "any and all churches or organizations which are designed to take men on a course that leads away from God".

That is exactly what I have said Libby.




No doubt there are a few churches that may actually be designed to do just that, but I would say relative few, as compared to those which actually encourage a belief in God/Christ and his moral laws.
A few? Are you kidding me?

OK lets look at the evidence. Lets start with this one. Do you think that the Catholic church leads people away from the truth of Mormonism?

[Billyray]

McConkie, himself, explains that the two churches are a "sphere of influence", not any organized church, per se.


Here are the two churches

1. The Mormon church

2. All other churches and organizations that lead people away from the true church and the true teachings of the true church.

[Billyray]

I still think you are reading in your own interpretation of what he is saying.

I think you are trying to avoid the obvious. Why? I don't know.

[Libby]

I think you are trying to avoid the obvious. Why? I don't know.

Nope. I simply think you have it wrong. The LDS Church does not teach what you are claiming it teaches.

[Libby]

Btw, Billy, I already answered your question about The Church of the Lamb of God. Go back and read it again.

[Billyray]

The LDS Church does not teach what you are claiming it teaches.
No I think you have it wrong Libby.

[Libby]

Here it is again, in case you couldn't find it.


The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints would be considered the truest church on the planet and the only one authorized to do saving ordinances...BUT, I think most would agree that there are, potentially, members of the "Church of the Lamb" in every single church and religion on the planet.

I am certainly willing to be corrected by anyone who is a current member of the LDS Church, if what I have said above is grossly incorrect.

[Billyray]

Btw, Billy, I already answered your question about The Church of the Lamb of God. Go back and read it again.

Here it is




I don't know what you were taught about The Church of the Lamb, but I do know what I was taught, in the LDS Church, and no one ever told me that only those who belonged to the LDS church, while on this earth, were the only members of the Church of the Lamb of God. Just the opposite.



Libby you did not tell me in your post what is the church of the Lamb. Please tell me what organization is the church of the lamb.

[Libby]

Yes, I did. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. My claim (and what I was taught) was that there are potential members sitting in every church on this planet. I don't think you can reasonably deny that.

[Billyray]

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints would be considered the truest church on the planet and the only one authorized to do saving ordinances...BUT, I think most would agree that there are, potentially, members of the "Church of the Lamb" in every single church and religion on the planet.

Are you kidding me Libby? The truest church on the planet? The LDS church doesn't teach this. The LDS church is not the truest church on the planet but the ONLY TRUE CHURCH ON THE PLANET. You need to go back to the LDS church and get re-schooled on their doctrine.

All other churches teach false doctrine and lead people away from the ONLY TRUE CHURCH ON THE PLANET.

[Billyray]

My claim (and what I was taught) was that there are potential members sitting in every church on this planet.

But they don't belong to the only true church on the planet so how can they be a member of the church of the lamb of god?

[Libby]

But they don't belong to the only true church on the planet so how can they be a member of the church of the lamb of god?

Missionary work...both here and in the hereafter.

[Billyray]

". . .Elder BruceR. McConkie, who was a member of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, taught: “There is only light and darkness; there is no dusky twilight zone. Either men walk in the light or they cannot be saved. Anything less than salvation is not salvation. It may be better to walk in the twilight or to glimpse the first few rays of a distant dawn than to be enveloped in total darkness, but salvation itself is only for those who step forth into the blazing light of the noonday sun ( The Millennial Messiah: The Second Coming of the Son of Man [1982], 54). . ."
http://seminary.lds.org/manuals/book-of-mormon-seminary-student-study-guide/bm-ssg-02-1ne-1-11.asp

[Billyray]

Missionary work...both here and in the hereafter.

If they join the LDS church then they will belong to the only true church but until that point they belong to one of the churches of the devil which leads people away from the true teachings and ordinances of the only true church.

[Libby]

Are you kidding me Libby? The truest church on the planet? The LDS church doesn't teach this. The LDS church is not the truest church on the planet but the ONLY TRUE CHURCH ON THE PLANET. You need to go back to the LDS church and get re-schooled on their doctrine.

All other churches teach false doctrine and lead people away from the ONLY TRUE CHURCH ON THE PLANET.

Maybe that's what you were taught, Billy, but I, seriously, was not. The LDS Church is the truest church and only church with saving ordinances. Other churches do not have the fulness, but they do have a lot of truth.

That's what I was taught.

[Libby]

Remember the statement by one of the prophets about bringing all of the truth you have, with you, and allowing the LDS Church add unto it? Surely, you have heard that one. Why would a prophet say that, if he didn't believe other churches had ANY truth?

[Billyray]

Maybe that's what you were taught, Billy, but I, seriously, was not. .

You weren't taught that the LDS church is the only true church on the face of the earth? Really?

[Billyray]

Remember the statement by one of the prophets about bringing all of the truth you have, with you, and letting the LDS Church add unto it? Surely, you have heard that one.
LDS believe that other Christians are lost and believe in false doctrine. Haven't you read any of DB's posts when he says that Christians have precious few doctrine that are in line with the Bible?

[Billyray]

""In bearing testimony of Jesus Christ, President Hinckley spoke of those outside the Church who say Latter-day Saints 'do not believe in the traditional Christ.' 'No, I don't. The traditional Christ of whom they speak is not the Christ of whom I speak. For the Christ of whom I speak has been revealed in this the Dispensation of the Fullness of Times. He together with His Father, appeared to the boy Joseph Smith in the year 1820, and when Joseph left the grove that day, he knew more of the nature of God than all the learned ministers of the gospel of the ages.'" (LDS Church News Week ending June 20, 1998, p. 7)."
http://carm.org/hinckley-says-mormons-believe-different-jesus

[Billyray]

1Nephi 14:10 . “The Church of the Devil”
Elder BruceR. McConkie defined the church of the devil in the following way: “The church of the devil is the world; it is all the carnality and evil to which fallen man is heir; it is every unholy and wicked practice; it is every false religion, every supposed system of salvation which does not actually save and exalt man in the highest heaven of the celestial world. It is every church except the true church, whether parading under a Christian or a pagan banner. As Moroni will say in a later era of Nephite history, and as we shall ascertain in our evaluation of Rev. 18:1–24 , it is ‘secret combinations,’ oath-bound societies, and the great world force of Godless communism. ( Ether 8:14–26 .)” ( Doctrinal New Testament Commentary, 3:551)."
http://seminary.lds.org/manuals/book-of-mormon-ins***ute-student-manual/bm1996-02-1ne-2-3.asp

[Libby]

You weren't taught that the LDS church is the only true church on the face of the earth? Really?

Where did I say that? Yes, of course, I was taught that, but it wasn't something I heard a lot.

The only true church, yes...but, not the only church with truth.

[Billyray]

The only true church, yes...
OK now we are getting somewhere. So if the LDS church is the ONLY true church then by definition every single other church teaches false doctrine and thus leads people away from the truth.

[Libby]

OK now we are getting somewhere. So if the LDS church is the ONLY true church then by definition every single other church teaches false doctrine and thus leads people away from the truth.

Well, that is not what I was taught, Billy, and I don't believe that is what the church teaches, today. There is truth in every church, but only the LDS Church has the fulness of the Gospel.

[Billyray]

Well, that is not what I was taught, Billy, and I don't believe that is what the church teaches, today. There is truth in every church, but only the LDS Church has the fulness of the Gospel.

Every church has some truth Libby but that is not what we are talking about. If Mormonism is the ONLY true church then every other church has false doctrine by definition and since every other church has false doctrine then they all lead people astray.

[Billyray]

Well, that is not what I was taught, Billy, and I don't believe that is what the church teaches, today.
Don't you think that is what BRM is saying in the following quote that ALL other churches belong to the church of the devil?

1Nephi 14:10 . “The Church of the Devil”
Elder BruceR. McConkie defined the church of the devil in the following way: “The church of the devil is the world; it is all the carnality and evil to which fallen man is heir; it is every unholy and wicked practice; it is every false religion, every supposed system of salvation which does not actually save and exalt man in the highest heaven of the celestial world. It is every church except the true church, whether parading under a Christian or a pagan banner. As Moroni will say in a later era of Nephite history, and as we shall ascertain in our evaluation of Rev. 18:1–24 , it is ‘secret combinations,’ oath-bound societies, and the great world force of Godless communism. ( Ether 8:14–26 .)” ( Doctrinal New Testament Commentary, 3:551)."
http://seminary.lds.org/manuals/book-of-mormon-ins***ute-student-manual/bm1996-02-1ne-2-3.asp

[Billyray]

Well, that is not what I was taught

My guess is that you were not LDS very long and they served up the milk for you but not the meat.

[Libby]

My guess is that you were not LDS very long and they served up the milk for you but not the meat.

I was in the church for almost seven years, Billy. I attended (and worked in) the Temple. I got plenty of "meat", thanks. :)

I guess you were coming out around the time I was going in.

You know, McConkie is not always the best source. He has made some flubs and had to backtrack on some things. Even his book "Mormon Doctrine" is not really doctrine, but mostly his opinion. Not to say many things in there are NOT doctrine...a lot of it is probably good. But, some of it is questionable.

[Billyray]

I was in the church for almost seven years, Billy. I attended (and worked in) the Temple. I got plenty of "meat", thanks.

The only explanation is that they changed the teachings to be more palatable to a wider audience.

[Libby]

The only explanation is that they changed the teachings to be more palatable to a wider audience.

I wouldn't say "changed", but I do think the teaching style is a little different, than when you were in. Also, there is always "ongoing revelation". New and more nuanced understandings.

Part of the problem with critics is that they don't usually understand the nuances (just as you seem not to)..

[Billyray]

You know, McConkie is not always the best source.
And if you noticed I quoted BRM from an official LDS manual which you clearly could have checked by using the provided link. BTW LDS don't seem to mind quoting him.


http://seminary.lds.org/manuals/book-of-mormon-ins***ute-student-manual/bm1996-02-1ne-2-3.asp
Book of Mormon Student Manual
Religion 121 and 122

Prepared by the Church Educational System

Published by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
Salt Lake City, Utah

Send comments and corrections, including typographic errors, to
CES Editing, 50E. North Temple Street, Floor 8, Salt Lake City, UT 84150-2722 USA.
E-mail: ces-manuals@ldschurch.org

Revised edition
© 1989, 1996 by Intellectual Reserve, Inc.
All rights reserved
Printed in the United States of America

[Billyray]

I wouldn't say "changed",

Did they have Lucifer hiring a Christian minister to convert people when you worked in the Temple?

[Libby]

Did they have Lucifer hiring a Christian minister to convert people when you worked in the Temple?

No. I heard about that, though.

[Billyray]

No. I heard about that, though.

So obviously they have changed things over the years to make things more palatable.

Did you pretend to slice your neck and cut out your bowels during the temple ceremony when you worked there?

[Libby]

And if you noticed I quoted BRM from an official LDS manual which you clearly could have checked by using the provided link. BTW LDS don't seem to mind quoting him.


http://seminary.lds.org/manuals/book-of-mormon-ins***ute-student-manual/bm1996-02-1ne-2-3.asp
Book of Mormon Student Manual
Religion 121 and 122

Prepared by the Church Educational System

Published by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
Salt Lake City, Utah

Send comments and corrections, including typographic errors, to
CES Editing, 50E. North Temple Street, Floor 8, Salt Lake City, UT 84150-2722 USA.
E-mail: ces-manuals@ldschurch.org

Revised edition
© 1989, 1996 by Intellectual Reserve, Inc.
All rights reserved
Printed in the United States of America

Yes, I saw where it came from. It still gets nuanced...at least, that was my experience. I have never had any teacher or member tell me that ALL other churches were completely false. I know for a fact that GBH did not teach that.

[Libby]

So obviously they have changed things over the years to make things more palatable.

Did you pretend to slice your neck and cut out your bowels during the temple ceremony when you worked there?

Nope. All gone before I came in.

[Billyray]

I have never had any teacher or member tell me that ALL other churches were completely false.

I never said other churches were completely false. (per LDS thinking)

[Billyray]

Nope. All gone before I came in.

So you can see that what I was taught and what you were taught were different and is the likely reason that we see things differently.

[Libby]

I never said other churches were completely false. (per LDS thinking)

That is what I clearly thought you were aiming for, by quoting McConkie. If all other churches are a part of the church of satan, wouldn't that automatically make them untrue..since satan is the father of lies..?

[Libby]

So you can see that what I was taught and what you were taught were different and is the likely reason that we see things differently.

Yes, I do see that as a possibility.

Do you think it's fair to present those things you were taught, as things that are taught today?

There were a lot of things taught in Protestant churches, that are no longer taught....like burning heretics, and using the Bible to condone slavery.

Most churches have learned along the way and had a progression of ideas and teachings. The LDS Church is no different, in that regard.

[Billyray]

That is what I clearly thought you were aiming for, by quoting McConkie.

Other churches have some truth but all other churches have false doctrine and lead people away from the truth thus by definition falls under the heading of the church of the devil. Per LDS thinking-at least when I was LDS-if other churches taught 100% falsehood then nobody would join them.

BTW BRM did say in his quote about the church of the devil that " It is every church except the true church"

[Billyray]

Do you think it's fair to present those things you were taught, as things that are taught today?


Absolutely since I can quote these thing from official LDS publications. For example I quoted information about the church of the devil from an official LDS publication that supported my point of view.

[Libby]

Other churches have some truth but all other churches have false doctrine and lead people away from the truth thus by definition falls under the heading of the church of the devil. Per LDS thinking-at least when I was LDS-if other churches taught 100% falsehood then nobody would join them.

BTW BRM did say in his quote about the church of the devil that " It is every church except the true church"

Okay, but my Bishop's First Counselor explained it differently and said that both churches are made up of individuals from varying denominations. He made a point of saying that just because you are a member of the LDS Church, doesn't mean you are automatically a member of the Church of the Lamb. Some LDS could be members of the church of satan...and some (or many) members of OTHER CHURCHES could be members of The Church of the Lamb.

[Libby]

Absolutely since I can quote these thing from official LDS publications. For example I quoted information about the church of the devil from an official LDS publication that supported my point of view.

But, you leave out a lot of the nuance, as I said...and it turns out that what you are telling us is not really an accurate portrayal of what is being taught.

Plus, I am not even sure that you fully understood what you were being taught, when you were active.

[Billyray]

Okay, but my Bishop's First Counselor explained it differently and said that both churches are made up of individuals from varying denominations.

So who do I believe some joe smoe in your ward or an official LDS publication?

[Billyray]

But, you leave out a lot of the nuance, as I said...and it turns out that what you are telling us is not really an accurate portrayal of what is being taught.

Sure it is exactly what I have portrayed. What are you talking about ?



1Nephi 14:10 . “The Church of the Devil”
Elder BruceR. McConkie defined the church of the devil in the following way: “The church of the devil is the world; it is all the carnality and evil to which fallen man is heir; it is every unholy and wicked practice; it is every false religion, every supposed system of salvation which does not actually save and exalt man in the highest heaven of the celestial world. It is every church except the true church, whether parading under a Christian or a pagan banner. As Moroni will say in a later era of Nephite history, and as we shall ascertain in our evaluation of Rev. 18:1–24 , it is ‘secret combinations,’ oath-bound societies, and the great world force of Godless communism. ( Ether 8:14–26 .)” ( Doctrinal New Testament Commentary, 3:551)."
http://seminary.lds.org/manuals/book-of-mormon-ins***ute-student-manual/bm1996-02-1ne-2-3.asp


What other churches fall under the category of the church of the devil according to this official LDS publication?

[Libby]

There is nothing wrong with the publication, as written. Just with your understanding of it.

[Billyray]

There is nothing wrong with the publication, as written. Just with your understanding of it.

And tell me what other churches fall under the category of the church of the devil?

[Billyray]

Plus, I am not even sure that you fully understood what you were being taught, when you were active.
You sounded just like a Mormon with that comment. Libby you really need to go back to Mormonism. You and Mormonism make a perfect fit. You even had the burning in the bosom experience.

[Libby]

You sounded just like a Mormon with that comment. Libby you really need to go back to Mormonism. You and Mormonism make a perfect fit. You even had the burning in the bosom experience.

You know, I really didn't mean that as a personal jab. I think I have learned more about the LDS Church, since I left, than I did while I was in. I see a lot of ex-Mormons making some pretty outrageous claims, about the church, and I think a certain amount of ignorance about the church is fairly common (for both inactive and active members).

I told you, I had no burning in the bosom...but, I did have an experience that I have not been quick to dismiss. I still believe it was of God. I won't discuss that here, though.

[Billyray]

I see a lot of ex-Mormons making some pretty outrageous claims, about the church, and I think a certain amount of ignorance about the church is fairly common (for both inactive and active members).


Another Mormonesque comment by you Libby. You are on a roll. Tell me what I have said that has misrepresented the Mormon Church?

[Billyray]

I told you, I had no burning in the bosom...but, I did have an experience that I have not been quick to dismiss. I still believe it was of God. I won't discuss that here, though.

Why would God confirm a false book that supports a false religion?

[Libby]

Another Mormonesque comment by you Libby. You are on a roll. Tell me what I have said that has misrepresented the Mormon Church?

I think you want people to believe that the LDS Church teaches that all other churches are of satan. I wasn't taught that and I don't believe the LDS Church teaches that, today. They teach that all other Christian churches hold some truth and that most Christians will be going to the Terrestial Kingdom, which is a kingdom of glory, so magnificent, that most would believe it was heaven. Christ, himself, will even visit there. That doesn't exactly sound "condemning" of other Christians, now, does it?

[Billyray]

I think you want people to believe that the LDS Church teaches that all other churches are of satan.



1Nephi 14:10 . “The Church of the Devil”
Elder BruceR. McConkie defined the church of the devil in the following way: “The church of the devil is the world; it is all the carnality and evil to which fallen man is heir; it is every unholy and wicked practice; it is every false religion, every supposed system of salvation which does not actually save and exalt man in the highest heaven of the celestial world. It is every church except the true church, whether parading under a Christian or a pagan banner. As Moroni will say in a later era of Nephite history, and as we shall ascertain in our evaluation of Rev. 18:1–24 , it is ‘secret combinations,’ oath-bound societies, and the great world force of Godless communism. ( Ether 8:14–26 .)” ( Doctrinal New Testament Commentary, 3:551)."
http://seminary.lds.org/manuals/book-of-mormon-ins***ute-student-manual/bm1996-02-1ne-2-3.asp

What does it teach in this official LDS manual?

[Libby]

What does it teach in this official LDS manual?

It teaches McConkie's opinion without any nuance. It says all that you want to hear.

Here is some more of what is taught:


As BYU professors Robert L. Millet and Lloyd D. Newell explain: “We need only become acquainted with individuals of other religious persuasions to recognize their goodness and the truths that they possess.
It would be blatant arrogance to suppose that the Latter-day Saints are the only people on earth with whom our Heavenly Father is concerned or to whom he seeks to make known his mind and will. God loves all of his children on earth and seeks to teach all that people are prepared to receive (Alma 29:8).”

The Light of Christ clearly illustrates God’s universal effort with the whole human family (see D&C 88:7; Moroni 7:16). President Packer explains: “Every man, woman, and child of every nation, creed, or color—everyone, no matter where they live or what they believe or what they do—has within them the imperishable Light of Christ. In this respect, all men are created equally. The Light of Christ in everyone is a testimony that God is no respecter of persons (see D&C 1:35). He treats everyone equally in that endowment with the Light of Christ.” He continues: “The Light of Christ is as universal as sunlight itself. Wherever there is human life, there is the Spirit of Christ. Every living soul is possessed of it. It is the sponsor of everything that is good. It is the inspirer of everything that will bless and benefit mankind. It nourishes goodness itself.” President Packer then adds, “It should not be difficult, therefore, to understand how revelation from God to His children on earth can come to all mankind through both the Spirit of Christ and the Holy Ghost.”10

Furthermore, presently and throughout history, God has blessed many nations through those not of the Church who are given a portion of truth “that he seeth fit that they should have” (Alma 29:8). In 1978 the First Presidency stated:

The great religious leaders of the world such as Mohammed, Confucius, and the Reformers, as well as philosophers including Socrates, Plato, and others, received a portion of God’s light. Moral truths were given to them by God to enlighten whole nations and to bring a higher level of understanding to individuals. The Hebrew prophets prepared the way for the coming of Jesus Christ, the promisedMessiah, who should provide salvation for all mankind who believe in the gospel. Consistent with these truths, we believe that God has given and will give to all peoples sufficient knowledge to help them on their way to eternal salvation, either in this life or in the life to come. We also declare that the gospel of Jesus Christ, restored to His Church in our day, provides the only way to a mortal life of happinessand a fullness of joy forever. . . . Our message therefore is one of special love and concern for the eternal welfare of all men and women, regardless of religious belief, race, or nationality, knowing that we are truly brothers and sisters because we are sons and daughters of the same Eternal Father.11

Teachings of other religious leaders past and present help many people become more righteous, civil, and ethical.12 God also uses good people outside of the Church to further His work. President Ezra Taft Benson said, “God, the Father of us all, uses the men of the earth, especially good men, to accomplish his purposes. It has been true in the past, it is true today, it will be true in the future.

https://ojs.lib.byu.edu/spc/index.php/RelEd/article/viewFile/2163/2038

[Libby]

From the link above:


President Benson
then quoted Elder Orson F. Whitney, who said:

Perhaps the Lord needs such men on the outside of his Church, to help it along. They are among its auxiliaries, and can do more good for the cause where the Lord has placed them, than anywhere else. . . . Hence, some are drawn into the fold and receive a testimony of Truth; while others remain unconverted . . . the beauties and glories of the gospel being veiled temporarily from their view, for a wise purpose. The Lord will open their eyes in his own due time. . . . God is using more than one people for the accomplishment of his great and marvelous work. The Latter-day Saints cannot do it all. It is too vast, too arduous for any one people. . . . We have no quarrel with the Gentiles. They are our partners in a certain sense.

[Libby]

Why would God confirm a false book that supports a false religion?

Good question.

He wouldn't, I don't believe.

I didn't say I got confirmation of the book. I said, I had an experience in regards to the book that I am not too quick to dismiss. Bluntly, there are some truths in the book that stood out for me. I don't know if the Book of Mormon is a true "history" or not. I'm not making that claim.

[Billyray]

It teaches McConkie's opinion without any nuance. It says all that you want to hear.





1Nephi 14:10 . “The Church of the Devil”
Elder BruceR. McConkie defined the church of the devil in the following way: “The church of the devil is the world; it is all the carnality and evil to which fallen man is heir; it is every unholy and wicked practice; it is every false religion, every supposed system of salvation which does not actually save and exalt man in the highest heaven of the celestial world. It is every church except the true church, whether parading under a Christian or a pagan banner. As Moroni will say in a later era of Nephite history, and as we shall ascertain in our evaluation of Rev. 18:1–24 , it is ‘secret combinations,’ oath-bound societies, and the great world force of Godless communism. ( Ether 8:14–26 .)” ( Doctrinal New Testament Commentary, 3:551)."
http://seminary.lds.org/manuals/book-of-mormon-ins***ute-student-manual/bm1996-02-1ne-2-3.asp

What does it teach in this official LDS manual?

[Libby]

What does it teach in this official LDS manual?

Why do you keep asking? Are you having a difficult time reading it? lol

[Libby]

McConkie's statement, standing alone, is not all that the church teaches on that subject, Billy. As you often tend to do, you are trying to simplify, in order to make a bogus point.

[Billyray]

Why do you keep asking? Are you having a difficult time reading it? lol

I want you to hear it from you. You seem to deny what he is saying.

[Libby]

I want you to hear it from you. You seem to deny what he is saying.

No, I don't deny that McConkie said that. I deny that the statement, alone, is a full description of what the church teaches on the subject. I know that it isn't.

[BigJulie]

Why do you keep asking? Are you having a difficult time reading it? lol

Libby---Billyray likes to believe that the members of the LDS church are disjoint in that they read one verse or paragraph and that sums up their whole belief system rather than Mormons have the ability to contextualize and think abstractly regarding their teachings and that what Billyray points to must be seen alone and not in the light of all other teachings.

This is why I like to cut and paste parts of Billyray's comments and come up with what I want it to mean--as that is how he treats our beliefs. But, even when I do this--he doesn't get it.

[Billyray]

Libby---Billyray likes to believe that the members of the LDS church are disjoint in that they read one verse or paragraph and that sums up their whole belief system rather than Mormons have the ability to contextualize and think abstractly regarding their teachings and that what Billyray points to must be seen alone and not in the light of all other teachings.


J do you disagree with BRM's statement?

[Libby]

Libby---Billyray likes to believe that the members of the LDS church are disjoint in that they read one verse or paragraph and that sums up their whole belief system rather than Mormons have the ability to contextualize and think abstractly regarding their teachings and that what Billyray points to must be seen alone and not in the light of all other teachings.

Yes, this is exactly how misinformation gets spread. Critics love sound bites that make the church appear weird or to teach things that are actually much more nuanced than you can get from a sound bite....this thing Billy is doing is a perfect example. Unfortunately, some people love this kind of sensationalism and will eat it up...and not bother to investigate further.

[BigJulie]

Yes, this is exactly how misinformation gets spread. Critics love sound bites that make the church appear weird or to teach things that are actually much more nuanced than you can get from a sound bite....this thing Billy is doing is a perfect example. Unfortunately, some people love this kind of sensationalism and will eat it up...and not bother to investigate further.

Yes, and it appears that WM has made a fortune on people who love this type of sensationlizism. For this reason I never believe anything negative regarding what I am told about other's beliefs or faiths.

This forum has actually done more to harm my view of evangelicals than anything else. I watch the tactics practiced here and I think---yeah, these are not righteous or wholesome tactics.

And when I watch this whole political election in which "right wing christians' as they are called by the media, run from one candidate to another---I think--this is truly embarr***ing for this group. I wish they could look in the mirror and realize how uneducated they appear. I truly don't know if I ever want to ***ociate myself with such a voting block again. How do I say--yes, there are conservative principles I agree with, but I don't want to be part of this hysteria.

[Libby]

Yes, and it appears that WM has made a fortune on people who love this type of sensationlizism. For this reason I never believe anything negative regarding what I am told about other's beliefs or faiths.

This forum has actually done more to harm my view of evangelicals than anything else. I watch the tactics practiced here and I think---yeah, these are not righteous or wholesome tactics.

And when I watch this whole political election in which "right wing christians' as they are called by the media, run from one candidate to another---I think--this is truly embarr***ing for this group. I wish they could look in the mirror and realize how uneducated they appear. I truly don't know if I ever want to ***ociate myself with such a voting block again. How do I say--yes, there are conservative principles I agree with, but I don't want to be part of this hysteria.

I agree, the GOP nomination process has become a joke. I keep thinking, are these people really the best they have to offer??? That is sad.

I have heard that there is a lot of money in the anti-Mormon business, but I really don't know. I know some people sell a lot of books and tapes, for sure.

[Billyray]

Yes, and it appears that WM has made a fortune on people who love this type of sensationlizism.

J are you going to answer my question?


1Nephi 14:10 . “The Church of the Devil”
Elder BruceR. McConkie defined the church of the devil in the following way: “The church of the devil is the world; it is all the carnality and evil to which fallen man is heir; it is every unholy and wicked practice; it is every false religion, every supposed system of salvation which does not actually save and exalt man in the highest heaven of the celestial world. It is every church except the true church, whether parading under a Christian or a pagan banner. As Moroni will say in a later era of Nephite history, and as we shall ascertain in our evaluation of Rev. 18:1–24 , it is ‘secret combinations,’ oath-bound societies, and the great world force of Godless communism. ( Ether 8:14–26 .)” ( Doctrinal New Testament Commentary, 3:551)."
http://seminary.lds.org/manuals/book-of-mormon-ins***ute-student-manual/bm1996-02-1ne-2-3.asp

J do you disagree with BRM's statement?

[Billyray]

. . .Yes, this is exactly how misinformation gets spread....this thing Billy is doing is a perfect example.

You have no idea what you are talking about Libby and your ***essment is complete bunk.




1Nephi 14:10 . “The Church of the Devil”
Elder BruceR. McConkie defined the church of the devil in the following way: “The church of the devil is the world; it is all the carnality and evil to which fallen man is heir; it is every unholy and wicked practice; it is every false religion, every supposed system of salvation which does not actually save and exalt man in the highest heaven of the celestial world. It is every church except the true church, whether parading under a Christian or a pagan banner. As Moroni will say in a later era of Nephite history, and as we shall ascertain in our evaluation of Rev. 18:1–24 , it is ‘secret combinations,’ oath-bound societies, and the great world force of Godless communism. ( Ether 8:14–26 .)” ( Doctrinal New Testament Commentary, 3:551)."
http://seminary.lds.org/manuals/book-of-mormon-ins***ute-student-manual/bm1996-02-1ne-2-3.asp


I am quoting an official LDS publication and I quoted the entire snippet from the link. Are you telling me that you believe that BRM is wrong?

[Billyray]

This is why I like to cut and paste parts of Billyray's comments and come up with what I want it to mean--as that is how he treats our beliefs. But, even when I do this--he doesn't get it.
Really I don't get it? What I don't get is why you don't accept your own leader's statements. You make up what you want on the fly.

[Libby]

You have no idea what you are talking about Libby and your ***essment is complete bunk.

I am quoting an official LDS publication and I quoted the entire snippet from the link. Are you telling me that you believe that BRM is wrong?

No, it's not "bunk". You took a quote from one person on a subject that I have already told you has many facets and is much more nuanced than your one quote. I even linked further information, for you, from a BYU publication. I have also told you what I was taught in my Ward. So, it should be clear to you, by now, that you are not giving a broad enough view of the issue.

[Billyray]

No, it's not "bunk". You took a quote from one person on a subject that I have already told you has many facets and is much more nuanced than your one quote.

So you disagree with the quote?

[Billyray]

I have also told you what I was taught in my Ward.

Who cares what you were taught in your ward. Do you really think the Joe Smoes in your ward trump an official published document by the LDS church?

[Libby]

Did you bother to read the link I posted or the excerpts, Billy? There is plenty of corroboration for what I was taught. You just don't seem to want to see it.

[Billyray]

Did you bother to read the link I posted or the excerpts, Billy? There is plenty of corroboration for what I was taught. You just don't seem to want to see it.

Don't keep changing the subject Libby. Do you disagree with BRM's quote?

[Libby]

Don't keep changing the subject Libby. Do you disagree with BRM's quote?

Why do you care? I disagree with the quote and with what I was taught about the two churches. I don't believe any of it.

[Billyray]

Why do you care?

Because you are wrong.

[Libby]

Because you are wrong.

In your opinion.

You are wrong to try and simplify subjects that are actually very complex.

[Billyray]

In your opinion.

You are wrong to try and simplify subjects that are actually very complex.

Do you disagree with BRM's quote?

[Billyray]

You are wrong to try and simplify subjects that are actually very complex.
BTW what is so complex with the concept of two churches?

[Libby]

Do you disagree with BRM's quote?

On a personal level, I absolutely disagree.

From an LDS perspective, it is incomplete, at best.

[Billyray]

From an LDS perspective, it is incomplete, at best.

Incomplete in what way?

[Libby]

BTW what is so complex with the concept of two churches?

Oh my. Go back and read this whole conversation, again.

[Billyray]

Oh my. Go back and read this whole conversation, again.

It is not complex at all in my opinion that is why I am asking you.

[Libby]

It is not complex at all in my opinion that is why I am asking you.

Of course it isn't, from your perspective, because you want to use one little quote from BRM as absolute and irrefutable "doctrine" of the church. As I said, that doesn't fly....on most subjects, not just this one.

[Billyray]

As I said, that doesn't fly....on most subjects, not just this one.
It doesn't fly with you so that is why I am asking you what is so complex about this subject?

[Libby]

I think, perhaps, if you go back and read the entire discussion (and my link), again, you will see the complexity.

[Billyray]

I think, perhaps, if you go back and read the entire discussion (and my link), again, you will see the complexity.
Why don't you just tell me why you think it is so complex?

[Libby]

Why don't you just tell me why you think it is so complex?

Why should I take the time and trouble, when you, apparently, have not taken the time and trouble to read my previous explanations?

[Billyray]

Why should I take the time and trouble, when you, apparently, have not taken the time and trouble to read my previous explanations?
Don't bother Libby. It really isn't that complex and you are just playing games with me.

[Libby]

Don't bother Libby. It really isn't that complex and you are just playing games with me.

You couldn't be more wrong, Billy. I often think you are the one playing games.

You ignore what you don't want to hear or whatever doesn't fit in with your paradigm and simply focus on what you "think" is true.

This issue of the two churches is much more complex and nuanced, than that one statement made by McConkie.

[Billyray]

This issue of the two churches is much more complex and nuanced, than that one statement made by McConkie.
BRM's statement is very clear and it is reprinted in an official LDS publication. I showed you that you were wrong and now you don't know what to do other than to say it is complex.

[Libby]

BRM's statement is very clear and it is reprinted in an official LDS publication. I showed you that you were wrong and now you don't know what to do other than to say it is complex.

As I said, you ignore all other information that has already been posted.

[Billyray]

As I said, you ignore all other information that has already been posted.

Why don't you tell me why you think BRM's statement is false?

[Billyray]

Yes, I saw where it came from. It still gets nuanced...at least, that was my experience. I have never had any teacher or member tell me that ALL other churches were completely false. I know for a fact that GBH did not teach that.


This is a strawman argument Libby. Nobody ever said that ALL other churches are COMPLETELY false.

[Billyray]

The use of the word church to describe Satan and his followers has confused some because they think of the term in the more limited sense of a specific religious organization. But if one thinks of the phrase “the church and kingdom of God,” one has a better concept of what is meant by the church of the devil. It is his kingdom, the sphere of his influence, the whole of his area of power.

Another strawman argument Libby. It is not limited to a SPECIFIC religious organization.

[Billyray]

As BYU professors Robert L. Millet and Lloyd D. Newell explain: “We need only become acquainted with individuals of other religious persuasions to recognize their goodness and the truths that they possess.
It would be blatant arrogance to suppose that the Latter-day Saints are the only people on earth with whom our Heavenly Father is concerned or to whom he seeks to make known his mind and will. God loves all of his children on earth and seeks to teach all that people are prepared to receive (Alma 29:8).”

The Light of Christ clearly illustrates God’s universal effort with the whole human family (see D&C 88:7; Moroni 7:16). President Packer explains: “Every man, woman, and child of every nation, creed, or color—everyone, no matter where they live or what they believe or what they do—has within them the imperishable Light of Christ. In this respect, all men are created equally. The Light of Christ in everyone is a testimony that God is no respecter of persons (see D&C 1:35). He treats everyone equally in that endowment with the Light of Christ.” He continues: “The Light of Christ is as universal as sunlight itself. Wherever there is human life, there is the Spirit of Christ. Every living soul is possessed of it. It is the sponsor of everything that is good. It is the inspirer of everything that will bless and benefit mankind. It nourishes goodness itself.” President Packer then adds, “It should not be difficult, therefore, to understand how revelation from God to His children on earth can come to all mankind through both the Spirit of Christ and the Holy Ghost.”10

Furthermore, presently and throughout history, God has blessed many nations through those not of the Church who are given a portion of truth “that he seeth fit that they should have” (Alma 29:8). In 1978 the First Presidency stated:

The great religious leaders of the world such as Mohammed, Confucius, and the Reformers, as well as philosophers including Socrates, Plato, and others, received a portion of God’s light. Moral truths were given to them by God to enlighten whole nations and to bring a higher level of understanding to individuals. The Hebrew prophets prepared the way for the coming of Jesus Christ, the promisedMessiah, who should provide salvation for all mankind who believe in the gospel. Consistent with these truths, we believe that God has given and will give to all peoples sufficient knowledge to help them on their way to eternal salvation, either in this life or in the life to come. We also declare that the gospel of Jesus Christ, restored to His Church in our day, provides the only way to a mortal life of happinessand a fullness of joy forever. . . . Our message therefore is one of special love and concern for the eternal welfare of all men and women, regardless of religious belief, race, or nationality, knowing that we are truly brothers and sisters because we are sons and daughters of the same Eternal Father.11

Teachings of other religious leaders past and present help many people become more righteous, civil, and ethical.12 God also uses good people outside of the Church to further His work. President Ezra Taft Benson said, “God, the Father of us all, uses the men of the earth, especially good men, to accomplish his purposes. It has been true in the past, it is true today, it will be true in the future.
https://ojs.lib.byu.edu/spc/index.php/RelEd/article/viewFile/2163/2038

And nothing in here contradicts what BRM said in his quote. BTW I don't see the church of the devil or the church of the lamb of god specifically mentioned at all in your quote. Why do you think that this supports your position at all?

[Libby]

This very first statement tells me that the LDS Church does not operate from the premise that everyone outside of their church belongs to "the church of satan".


As BYU professors Robert L. Millet and Lloyd D. Newell explain: “We need only become acquainted with individuals of other religious persuasions to recognize their goodness and the truths that they possess.

The churches don't have to be mentioned. I know that the basic philosophy, stated by GBH and many others in the LDS Church, is that the LDS Church is not the only church through which God works or in which truth is found.

[Libby]

Another strawman argument Libby. It is not limited to a SPECIFIC religious organization.

That's exactly what I said. The church of satan is sphere of influence (that can even include LDS members)...not a specific organization or church.

[Billyray]

That's exactly what I said. The church of satan is sphere of influence (that can even include LDS members)...not a specific organization or church.

And what churches fall under the category of the church of the devil since we know there are only two churches?

[Billyray]

This very first statement tells me that the LDS Church does not operate from the premise that everyone outside of their church belongs to "the church of satan".



The churches don't have to be mentioned. I know that the basic philosophy, stated by GBH and many others in the LDS Church, is that the LDS Church is not the only church through which God works or in which truth is found.

1. List all of the churches that lead people to exhalation.

2. List all the churches or influences that do not lead people to exaltation.


When you do that you will have a list of the two churches. Libby this is not that hard of a concept to grasp. BTW the LDS church believes that all people and all churches have some truth but that only the LDS church has all of the truth and ordinances necessary for celestial life and exaltation..

[Libby]

1. List all of the churches that lead people to exhalation.

2. List all the churches or influences that do not lead people to exaltation.


When you do that you will have a list of the two churches. Libby this is not that hard of a concept to grasp. BTW the LDS church believes that all people and all churches have some truth but that only the LDS church has all of the truth and ordinances necessary for celestial life and exaltation..

Yes, and if you had been paying attention, that's exactly what I said, many, many posts back. Only the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has the necessary saving ordinances.

However, your claim that they believe all other churches lead people astray is false. That's why I gave you some supplemental reading material...plus, that was really just a drop in the bucket and something I grabbed quickly off the internet. All other churches do not, necessarily, lead people astray. Just the opposite, if they are pointing towards Jesus Christ....and ultimately exaltation, even if ordinances are not performed while they are living, but in the next life.

[Billyray]

Yes, and if you had been paying attention, that's exactly what I said, many, many posts back. Only the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has the necessary saving ordinances.


And if you agreed with me then you would agree with me that all other churches cons***ute the church of th devil.

[Billyray]

However, your claim that they believe all other churches lead people astray is false.

Not false at all but completely true.

[Libby]

And if you agreed with me then you would agree with me that all other churches cons***ute the church of th devil.

That doesn't automatically follow, as I have shown and I think you know.

[Billyray]

That doesn't automatically follow, as I have shown and I think you know.

You haven't shown me that at all Libby. Who do you think you are kidding?

[Libby]

You haven't shown me that at all Libby. Who do you think you are kidding?

Sigh.

Does this sound like a belief that all other religions lead men astray?


Teachings of other religious leaders past and present help many people become more righteous, civil, and ethical.12 God also uses good people outside of the Church to further His work. President Ezra Taft Benson said, “God, the Father of us all, uses the men of the earth, especially good men, to accomplish his purposes. It has been true in the past, it is true today, it will be true in the future.

[Billyray]

Does this sound like a belief that all other religions lead men astray?

Would J and DB agree that my church leads me to the truth and to exaltation?

[Libby]

Would J and DB agree that my church leads me to the truth and to exaltation?

Now, you are equivocating. The question is, specifically, about the cons***ution of the two churches, not about exaltation. But, in reality (per LDS doctrine) any church COULD lead to exaltation, if it leads you to the truth of Christ. As you well know, ordinances can be done posthumously.

[Billyray]

Now, you are equivocating. The question is, specifically, about the cons***ution of the two churches, not about exaltation. But, in reality (per LDS doctrine) any church COULD lead to exaltation, if it leads you to the truth of Christ. As you well know, ordinances can be done posthumously.

You didn't really answer my question. Would J and DB agree that the doctrine that I am being taught is true doctrine and would lead to my exaltation?

[Libby]

You didn't really answer my question. Would J and DB agree that the doctrine that I am being taught is true doctrine and would lead to my exaltation?

I don't know. You would have to ask them.

Even if they don't believe your particular doctrine could possibly lead to exaltation, that doesn't exclude other Christian doctrines. Personally, I would think that most LDS believe that any doctrine that points to Christ as the way, could ultimately lead to exaltation. Even those that don't, but teach good principles, could lead to exaltation, with ordinances done in the hereafter.

[Billyray]

I don't know. You would have to ask them.


Come on Libby you have been on this board long enough to know that THEY both believe that Christianity has very little in common with what the Bible teaches.

[Billyray]

Personally, I would think that most LDS believe that any doctrine that points to Christ as the way, could ultimately lead to exaltation.

What other church would lead a person to exaltation?

[Libby]

Come on Libby you have been on this board long enough to know that THEY both believe that Christianity has very little in common with what the Bible teaches.

I was LDS long enough to know that, potentially almost any and all paths can lead to exaltation, with few exceptions. You know this, as well (or should).

[Billyray]

I was LDS long enough to know that, potentially almost any and all paths can lead to exaltation, with few exceptions. You know this, as well (or should).
If that were the case then why on earth should anyone join Mormonism if exaltation is possible from being a member of any religious organization?

[Billyray]

You know this, as well (or should).

I know that you are 100% wrong on this point.

[Libby]

If that were the case then why on earth should anyone join Mormonism if exaltation is possible from being a member of any religious organization?

The biggest reason may be lack of knowledge that the church even exists. LDS believe that every person will be given a chance for exaltation.

Other than that, lack of a Holy Ghost testimony (per LDS belief). That could change, either in the course of their lifetime or in the hereafter. I have heard there will be lots of missionary work going on, in the hereafter.

[Billyray]

The biggest reason may be lack of knowledge that the church even exists.

Why should that matter at all since per your thinking exaltation is possible from any religion. Why send missionaries out if every religion is good and people can be exalted regardless of what religion they belong to?

[Libby]

Why should that matter at all since per your thinking exaltation is possible from any religion. Why send missionaries out if every religion is good and people can be exalted regardless of what religion they belong to?

Because some are ready NOW...others are not.

[Billyray]

Because some are ready NOW...others are not.

Ready for what? Why change from what they already believe?

[Libby]

Ready for what? Why change from what they already believe?

None of that matters. You are starting to wander. The point is, LDS do believe in "second chances" and in some cases "first chances" in the hereafter. You just chastised a Mormon for believing in "second chances", because you believe there is only one chance, and that is in this lifetime.

[Billyray]

You are starting to wander.
No I am not starting to wander. Why change from what they already believe if what they believe is true and they can be exalted without changing?

[Billyray]

The point is, LDS do believe in "second chances" and in some cases "first chances" in the hereafter.
Why would they need a second chance if what the believe is true already?

[Libby]

No I am not starting to wander. Why change from what they already believe if what they believe is true and they can be exalted without changing?

Billy...I have to wonder if these are sincere questions. People will stay with whatever belief system they believe is true or, perhaps, just feel comfortable with, because it's the faith of their family. This same principle is in operation for your belief system. You switched to mainstream Christian, ten years ago, so it seems that you were not ready for that switch, until that point in time. Really not difficult to understand. Most people have a faith journey that is a process in spiritual growth.

[Libby]

Why would they need a second chance if what the believe is true already?

The basics (a belief in Christ) may be there, but as you know, LDS believe that certain ordinances are necessary.

[Billyray]

Billy...I have to wonder if these are sincere questions.
They are questions to show you your error. Mormons believe that they belong to the only true church and are the only church that can provide celestial life and exaltation. All other churches teach false doctrine and lead people away from the truth that is why they are considered churches of the devil.

[Libby]

They are questions to show your error. Mormons believe that they belong to the only true church and are the only church that can provide celestial life and exaltation.

That's correct.


All other churches teach false doctrine and lead people away from the truth that is why they are considered churches of the devil.

That is incorrect, and I have shown you proof of that, plus if you were ever LDS, you will know that is not what they teach.

[Billyray]

The basics (a belief in Christ) may be there, but as you know, LDS believe that certain ordinances are necessary.
Mormons and other churches don't even agree on the basics. They are completely different.

[Billyray]

That is incorrect, and I have shown you proof of that, plus if you were ever LDS, you will know that is not what they teach.

You are absolutely wrong and you haven't shown me anything to prove otherwise.

And we ave a quote from a LDS leader from an official LDS publication that proves you wrong. But you are too stubborn to admit your error.

[Libby]

Mormons and other churches don't even agree on the basics. They are completely different.

They are pretty different, I think even most LDS would agree. But, they do share some basics with other religions, including mainstream Christians. A basic belief in Christ and the same basic moral code.

[Libby]

You are absolutely wrong and you haven't shown me anything to prove otherwise.

And we ave a quote from a LDS leader from an official LDS publication that proves you wrong. But you are too stubborn to admit your error.

I think you are the one who is being stubborn, refusing to allow only the one quote you provided as any sort of "proof".

I really think this discussion is at an end.

Merry Christmas, Billy.

[Apologette]

[QUOTE]

Which is why so many Protestants at one point were put to death, as well as the men who translated the Bible to English--because the "Christian" church at that time thought that what they were doing was heretical.

I guess you are just the next in th line to claim they are the one who protects the "religion" and the "correct view".

That said, it might be worth noting that the word "only" and the word "begotten" have two different meanings in Hebrew.

The term "begotten" was not written in Hebrew, but in Koine Greek, in the New Testament:

In the original Greek, that's: μονογενης υιος, or monogenes huios

In actuality, the proper translation would be Tyndale's:

For God so loveth the world,
that he hath given his only son,
that none that believe in him,
should perish:
but should have everlasting life.
—John 3:16, Tyndale translation, 1534 version (modern spelling).

The Greek word, monogenes, is translated by the NIV thusly:

For God so loved the world
that he gave his one and only Son,
that whoever believes in him
shall not perish
but have eternal life.
—John 3:16, New International Version (NIV), 1973.

The KJV's tanslation of the word monogenes as "only begotten," is a problem with the translation. I believe Dr. Martin actually pointed this out once in a tape I heard.

Think, if Jesus is the ONLY Son, that gives Mormons a real problem, don't you think?

[BigJulie]

[QUOTE=BigJulie;101614]

The term "begotten" was not written in Hebrew, but in Koine Greek, in the New Testament:

In the original Greek, that's: μονογενης υιος, or monogenes huios

In actuality, the proper translation would be Tyndale's:

For God so loveth the world,
that he hath given his only son,
that none that believe in him,
should perish:
but should have everlasting life.
—John 3:16, Tyndale translation, 1534 version (modern spelling).

The Greek word, monogenes, is translated by the NIV thusly:

For God so loved the world
that he gave his one and only Son,
that whoever believes in him
shall not perish
but have eternal life.
—John 3:16, New International Version (NIV), 1973.

The KJV's tanslation of the word monogenes as "only begotten," is a problem with the translation. I believe Dr. Martin actually pointed this out once in a tape I heard.

Think, if Jesus is the ONLY Son, that gives Mormons a real problem, don't you think?

So, do you know what the word "only" means in Hebrew? (No, it doesn't give Mormons a problem at all---but it should give you a problem ;))

Here is an example:

Gen 22:2 And he said, Take now thy son, thine only [son] Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of.

Was Isaac, Abraham's ONLY son?

[Pa Pa]

http://www.blogtalkradio.com/waltermartindotcom/2011/11/06/the-maze-of-mormonismwhy-gov-romney-is-not-a-christia

This thread is about THEOLOGY and HISTORY, not politics. Romney's name is mentioned because he continues to insist he is a "Christian" when it can be proven outside of politics that he is NOT. Let's try it again and stay away from the insults, please.

No this thread is about a 501c trying to influence the outcome of a Presidential race.

[alanmolstad]

As a Christian I yet will have no problem or any issues at all with voting for Mitt Romney for President.

I see his religion as a non-issue.

I totally reject any argument that we should take a person's private thoughts of religion into account when we vote for anyone....be it a local mayor, or the president of the country.

Shame on anyone who would....

[Pa Pa]

As a Christian I yet will have no problem or any issues at all with voting for Mitt Romney for President.

I see his religion as a non-issue.

I totally reject any argument that we should take a person's private thoughts of religion into account when we vote for anyone....be it a local mayor, or the president of the country.

Shame on anyone who would....

There is a reason for the three branches of Gov't. Some have suggested that he will turn over America to Thomas S Mason, and by so doing lose all credibility.

[BigJulie]

No this thread is about a 501c trying to influence the outcome of a Presidential race.

I completely and utterly agree.

[BigJulie]

As a Christian I yet will have no problem or any issues at all with voting for Mitt Romney for President.

I see his religion as a non-issue.

I totally reject any argument that we should take a person's private thoughts of religion into account when we vote for anyone....be it a local mayor, or the president of the country.

Shame on anyone who would....

But Alan, you seem to have a bias against Romney that you don't recognize. It seems that you will trust someone like Newt when he says he has changed, but not Romney.

[alanmolstad]

There is a reason for the three branches of Gov't. Some have suggested that he will turn over America to Thomas S Mason, and by so doing lose all credibility.

FEAR ...is a poor subs***ute for reason...

This country is founded on an idea that all men are created equal.
And that we have governments in order to protect the equality of men.

The moment we say that These other type of people ( Mormons, Catholic, Buddhist, etc), have less right to be elected because of their very personal,private faith we spit on the very things this country should stand for.

If we have a dream and a lasting goal in this country about how each generation of Americans picks it's leaders, let that dream and goal be that we can teach every child that they have just as much right to grow up and become the President as anyone else, regardless of race, creed or color...

[alanmolstad]

But Alan, you seem to have a bias against Romney that you don't recognize. It seems that you will trust someone like Newt when he says he has changed, but not Romney.
I believe Mitt Romney is a political pros***ute, and that he panders to whatever people or special interest group that he is currently in front of, and that I think his many flip-flops on important issues like ABORTION, and health care should bar him from representing my Conservative Party.....

None the less I do not hold his religion or his views about God and Jesus Christ to be revelant to my voting for him or against him.

I would gladly vote AGAINST Mitt Romney , on political grounds.

I would gladly vote for a bag of dirt rather that Mitt on Political grounds....

But on religious grounds I find no reason to not vote for him ...

I do not hold the personal life or the personal views of people against them when I enter into the voting booth.

It's the same to me as hiring a guy to fix the roof.

I do not care if the guy who wants to fix my roof is a good Christian or a good Mormon, or a Buddhist...
I do not care if the roofer has been married to only one wife, or has been married and divorced 7 times...

I only care that the guy knows how to fix my roof...


(I do remember that Walter Martin said the same as what I am saying during a answer he gave on his show dealing with the fact that many Christian proLife groups were working with many other religions)

[BigJulie]

I believe Mitt Romney is a political pros***ute, and that he panders to whatever people or special interest group that he is currently in front of, and that I think his many flip-flops on important issues like ABORTION, and health care should bar him from representing my Conservative Party.....

None the less I do not hold his religion or his views about God and Jesus Christ to be revelant to my voting for him or against him.

I would gladly vote AGAINST Mitt Romney , on political grounds.

I would gladly vote for a bag of dirt rather that Mitt on Political grounds....

But on religious grounds I find no reason to not vote for him ...

I do not hold the personal life or the personal views of people against them when I enter into the voting booth.

It's the same to me as hiring a guy to fix the roof.

I do not care if the guy who wants to fix my roof is a good Christian or a good Mormon, or a Buddhist...
I do not care if the roofer has been married to only one wife, or has been married and divorced 7 times...

I only care that the guy knows how to fix my roof...


(I do remember that Walter Martin said the same as what I am saying during a answer he gave on his show dealing with the fact that many Christian proLife groups were working with many other religions)

But, the way you defended Newt in spite of some of the terrible things he has done---not to mention supporting mandates, ethical violations, etc---the way you defend someone who has obvious problems and then attack Mitt for far less problems, well, it appears that their religious affiliations does affect your trust for what they say.

[alanmolstad]

.... it appears that their religious affiliations does affect your trust for what they say.That that feeling of yours is yet another place where you are in error....

[BigJulie]

That that feeling of yours is yet another place where you are in error....

I wish it was that obvious to me. If I saw consistency---where bad behavior of all were judged the same...instead of forgiveness of one, but not of another. It comes across as bias.

[alanmolstad]

The reason I am not a big fan of Mitt Romney is that I share the same deep-seated feeling of mistrust about the guy's views as to most Republican conservatives.

There is just something politically slimy about the guy.

His refusal to join with other Republicans and the Pro-Life cause during this election at the 4 different pro-life forums that all the other candidates attended, leads me to believe that he simply will not go to the mat for anything.

Rather, when I look at Mitt Romney what I see is a guy who is a modern political version of Elmer Gantry .

[BigJulie]

The reason I am not a big fan of Mitt Romney is that I share the same deep-seated feeling of mistrust about the guy's views as to most Republican conservatives.

There is just something politically slimy about the guy.

His refusal to join with other Republicans and the Pro-Life cause during this election at the 4 different pro-life forums that all the other candidates attended, leads me to believe that he simply will not go to the mat for anything.

Rather, when I look at Mitt Romney what I see is a guy who is a modern political version of Elmer Gantry .

But, on the basis you give, you should also have a deep-seated mistrust of Newt- or even Rick Santorum who was voted one of the most unethical politicians in Washington (in the top three)--which you haven't shown.

[alanmolstad]

But, on the basis you give, you should also have a deep-seated mistrust of Newt- or even Rick Santorum who was voted one of the most unethical politicians in Washington (in the top three)--which you haven't shown.

This topic is not about Newt or Rick, or Paul, or Sarah Palin...

It's about Mitt Romney....
and it's about the faith that Mitt claims.

Now on his faith I consider Mitt to be a poor lost soul.
If I were judging Mitt Romney on the teachings of his religion, then he is one big pile of stinking "Fail"

But even if that is what i think of his faith, i still do not hold that against him when i enter into the voting booth.

When i vote for someone, I put aside all the other side issues like the person person faith, their marriage troubles, there sex tapes or their speeding tickets ...

I judge them only on their political track record and how they strike me as being a good spokesman for the issues that I care about.


And lets face it.....on the social issues, Mitt didnt even try.
At the 4 pro-Life forums, all we saw was an empty chair.

hard to put a good spin on that kids....LOL:D


And you cant get people to vote "for" someone by just claiming "They other guy is worse"

[BigJulie]

This topic is not about Newt or Rick, or Paul, or Sarah Palin...

It's about Mitt Romney....
and it's about the faith that Mitt claims.

Now on his faith I consider Mitt to be a poor lost soul.
If I were judging Mitt Romney on the teachings of his religion, then he is one big pile of stinking "Fail"

But even if that is what i think of his faith, i still do not hold that against him when i enter into the voting booth.

When i vote for someone, I put aside all the other side issues like the person person faith, their marriage troubles, there sex tapes or their speeding tickets ...

I judge them only on their political track record and how they strike me as being a good spokesman for the issues that I care about.


And lets face it.....on the social issues, Mitt didnt even try.
At the 4 pro-Life forums, all we saw was an empty chair.

hard to put a good spin on that kids....LOL:D


And you cant get people to vote "for" someone by just claiming "They other guy is worse"

So you vote strictly on pro-life issues...is that it? Didn't Rick vote for Planned Parenthood?

"GOP presidential hopeful Rick Santorum is under fire in South Carolina for touting his alleged pro-life beliefs but voting to subsidize abortion and Planned Parenthood, the largest provider of abortions in America, while serving in the U.S. Senate. He has also vigorously backed pro-abortion candidates against pro-lifers. Critics are outraged."

http://thenewamerican.com/usnews/politics/10549-santorum-voted-to-subsidize-abortion-planned-parenthood

Do you realize that Rick Santorum has also flip-flopped on the abortion issue:

"“Rep. Doug Walgren, D-Mt. Lebanon, yesterday accused his Republican opponent, Rick Santorum, of switching positions to become an anti-abortion candidate in hopes of gaining political advantage...

“[Santorum] said he did a lot of research and soul searching and determined that he was most comfortable with a firm position against abortion...

“ "I can't give you an exact date when I arrived at a position. So it was a gradual evolution, I guess."

“He flatly denied he was motivated by politics.”


Pittsburgh Post-Gazette - Nov 3, 1990

[alanmolstad]

And you cant get people to vote "for" someone by just claiming "They other guy is worse"


some people miss this last part of my post I guess.....:D

[BigJulie]

some people miss this last part of my post I guess.....:D

Nope, my point isn't at all the Rick S. is worse, but merely that you seem to forgive one candidate over the other and rail on one candidate but not the other. Why?

[alanmolstad]

Again......
My huge distrust for Mitt Romney is based on what I see as his being a political pros***ute in his political stands.

I dont trust him
Conservatives dont trust him...

....not only for the things he did years ago..

I dont trust him for the things he has done to stab the pro-Life cause in the back DURING THIS ELECTION!>

So what Im saying is that Mitt is right now, currently doing the complete wrong thing from my political point of view.

Mitt Wrongney has went out of his way during this election to insult the pro-life cause
Now when I add this insult of his to the fact that he has a well known history of flip-flops of the Abortion issue, then that seals the deal as far as Im concerned...


This means that while I would never hold Mitt's religion against him, I would yet for purely political reasons rather vote for a bag of dirt for President than vote for Romney.....:D

[Pa Pa]

Again......
My huge distrust for Mitt Romney is based on what I see as his being a political pros***ute in his political stands.



Well he in politics and running for office, of Pope or Prophet.

[alanmolstad]

Well he in politics and running for office, of Pope or Prophet.
I dont understand this comment....

is this a question?

Mitt Romney is running for President.
The office of President is a political matter, and I will judge who I will vote for on only political matters.

[Pa Pa]

I dont understand this comment....

is this a question?

Mitt Romney is running for President.
The office of President is a political matter, and I will judge who I will vote for on only political matters.
I was agreeing with but let out a word which did make it confusing.

[Apologette]

I was agreeing with but let out a word which did make it confusing.

Theo was speaking of tolerance of false beliefs. In fact, didn't Theo say he'd vote for the best man regardless of his relgious beliefs? I believe he did. Seems you are maligning a Christian here.

[alanmolstad]

?:confused:

[BigJulie]

Alan, I think PaPa was agreeing with you and Apologette was confused and so took another stab. *sigh*

[Libby]

Looks like Romney is going to get the GOP nomination.

[Pa Pa]

Theo was speaking of tolerance of false beliefs. In fact, didn't Theo say he'd vote for the best man regardless of his relgious beliefs? I believe he did. Seems you are maligning a Christian here.

Alanmolstad is Theo? Again with the many names and accounts.

[jdjhere]

So, any more comments on the political front? Who do people think is going to win in a few weeks?? Its going to be interesting for sure.

[Libby]

I don't think Romney will win. The electoral votes are overwhelmingly in favor of Obama.

[alanmolstad]

Even yoda did not try to predict the future ...

[akaSeerone]

All I'm saying, Billy, is that the LDS Church allows others the ***le of "Christian"....they don't try to say that, those with whom they disagree, are not Christian. At least, not the contemporary LDS Church. I'm sure you can dig something up from the past that will have someone saying differently.The only reason that Mormonism "allow others the ***le of Christian" is because they think it allows Mormonism to hopelessly appear to be Christian, but we will not allow that here. There is nothing whatsoever Christian about Mormonism. That is a fact that you have to live with and accept, otherwise you are not ever going to be able to have a sound understanding of just what Christianity is.

Jill is correct in saying that Romney is being deceitful by claiming to be Christian. Romney claiming to be Christian makes him a liar and who wants a self confessed liar for president of this country?

The other choice is a joke also, so this is a tough election.

It would help Romney's case if he would just admit that he is Mormon and there is nothing whatsoever Christian about Mormonism.

One of the main issues that proves that Mormonism is not Christian and therefore a false "religion" is found in Luke 16:16 (and other places) where Jesus said that the Law and the Prophets ended with John the Baptist and when we consider the fact that the Law and the Prophets were established so Jesus could come to the earth and go to the Cross to die for our sins and make things right with those who believe and God.....the ones that God calls and adopts into His Glorious Kingdom and being that Jesus accomplished what He came here to do there is no longer a need for the Law or the Prophets and that makes Smith a false prophet.

Now we have Jesus as the mediator between God and mankind and being that Jesus is alive forevermore and the one and only holder of the Melchizedek Priesthood........the only Priesthood that God has in operation since Pentecost......there is no need or place in God's plan of Salvation for mankind for Prophets. The kind of prophet that Smith claimed to be was simply done away with, with the p***ing of the Old Covenant and the establishment of the New Covenant.

It simply is not about us Holy, Righteous, Blessed Christians disagreeing with Mormonism; it is about the fact that God says that there is nothing whatsoever Christian about Mormonism, so Romney just looks foolish by claiming to be Christian when the facts refute him and nothing he can say or do will ever change that fact unless of course he repents, asks God for forgiveness and God calls him and adopts him into His Glorious Kingdom.

But Romney is so steeped into Mormonism and I see him telling lie after lie and flip-flopping on the things he claims he will do as president, I doubt if he will ever come into the Truth and renounce Mormonism. Sad to say, but it appears that his fate is sealed and he will most likely end up in the Lake of Fire along side his god, Joe Smith and company of all the Mormon false prophets and false apostles.

Brother Andrew

[alanmolstad]

The religion of Mitt Romney is of no concern to us as we look at who to be the next President.

i believe it is even wrong of us to try to use a test of a person's religion as a guide as to what person would be better as president.

I also believe that a lot of liberals are now busy in different ways to attempt to raise this issue among the Christians that support Mitt in an effort to get them to not vote for him.


I can only speak for myself, and what I say is that I will vote for Mitt, and hope and pray he wins.

[ActRaiser]

The religion of Mitt Romney is of no concern to us as we look at who to be the next President.

i believe it is even wrong of us to try to use a test of a person's religion as a guide as to what person would be better as president.

I also believe that a lot of liberals are now busy in different ways to attempt to raise this issue among the Christians that support Mitt in an effort to get them to not vote for him.


I can only speak for myself, and what I say is that I will vote for Mitt, and hope and pray he wins.

Yeah I know. This is like choosing whether you want to vote for someone who can at least get the ball rolling towards recovery or someone else who can cause the whole situation to go off like the Tsar-Bomba.

[jdjhere]

Well, Romney lost. Comments? Concerns?

[glm1978]

Well, Romney lost. Comments? Concerns?

Not at all surprised that Romney lost. One needs only to wonder if God would allow a member of a church that has so many unscriptual, not to mention even some blasphemous teachings, to be president of the USA.

[alanmolstad]

Again......
My huge distrust for Mitt Romney is based on what I see as his being a political pros***ute in his political stands.

I dont trust him
Conservatives dont trust him...

....not only for the things he did years ago..

I dont trust him for the things he has done to stab the pro-Life cause in the back DURING THIS ELECTION!>

So what Im saying is that Mitt is right now, currently doing the complete wrong thing from my political point of view.

Mitt Wrongney has went out of his way during this election to insult the pro-life cause
Now when I add this insult of his to the fact that he has a well known history of flip-flops of the Abortion issue, then that seals the deal as far as Im concerned...




I think when the people in this race or who gave advice to people in this race all sit down and start to write their books on this election, that there is going to come out a story of why Mitt turned his back on the Republican Conservative base, and simply did not make any appeals on conservative issues like Abortion...

Right now the way Mitt ran his campain it's like he wanted to run as a Dem...

Mitt seems to have run on an "dont talk about abortion" platform...
Mitt tried to keep his run centered on the state of the economy and that hurt him because by election day all the TV news reports were that "Things are getting better" (as I predicted by the way)

This means that by the end of the election Mitt really had no real reason left for anyone to vote for him....


The lesson here is this -

The Republican Party had a strong conservative push at the start of this going into Iowa.
The problem for the conservatives was that due to the great number of Conservatives in the race going into Iowa the convervative vote was split between 6 or more different names.

That left the more liberal Republicans with only Mitt to vote for.

So the great number of conservatives killed their chance to represent the vasy majority of the party.....and so a guy that the conservatives didnt like kept willing and willing as time after time the conservative vote was split.


and that is how Mitt got the lead spot on the ticket....

and that hints what is the best way to fix this too....and that is to work things in such a way as to have only one top conservative left in the race going into Iowa.

[Pa Pa]

http://www.blogtalkradio.com/waltermartindotcom/2011/11/06/the-maze-of-mormonismwhy-gov-romney-is-not-a-christia

This thread is about THEOLOGY and HISTORY, not politics. Romney's name is mentioned because he continues to insist he is a "Christian" when it can be proven outside of politics that he is NOT. Let's try it again and stay away from the insults, please.Calling someone who believes in Christ, no-Christian is the least Christian thing someone who believes in Christ can do.

[James Banta]

Calling someone who believes in Christ, no-Christian is the least Christian thing someone who believes in Christ can do.

I have asked this before and was never answered. I am serious..

So if I go to Home Depot and buy a Garden Gnome, name it Jesus and proscribe all the Biblical stories of Jesus to that lawn art, am I a Christian because I teach that it is Jesus? Does it matter what I believe Jesus to be? How about a Ghost that lives in my basement closet? Would I be a Christian saying that He is Jesus and He was created by my garden gnome for doing everything the Garden Gnome wanted done?

Mormonism teaches that Jesus is a creation of the Father do they not? And that the Father is a being of flesh and Bone as tangible as man's? That Jesus became a God through obedience to Laws and ordinances of the gospel? But neither the Garden Gnome, nor the Ghost in the closet are Jesus now are they? Neither is a created god, the son of another created gods that mormonism holds to be the Father, and the Son. A Christian believes in the Jesus of the Bible, who is God.. Mormonism denies that and those that accept such a lie are not Christians.. IHS jim

[BigJulie]

I have asked this before and was never answered. I am serious..

So if I go to Home Depot and buy a Garden Gnome, name it Jesus and proscribe all the Biblical stories of Jesus to that lawn art, am I a Christian because I teach that it is Jesus? Does it matter what I believe Jesus to be? How about a Ghost that lives in my basement closet? Would I be a Christian saying that He is Jesus and He was created by my garden gnome for doing everything the Garden Gnome wanted done?

Mormonism teaches that Jesus is a creation of the Father do they not? And that the Father is a being of flesh and Bone as tangible as man's? That Jesus became a God through obedience to Laws and ordinances of the gospel? But neither the Garden Gnome, nor the Ghost in the closet are Jesus now are they? Neither is a created god, the son of another created gods that mormonism holds to be the Father, and the Son. A Christian believes in the Jesus of the Bible, who is God.. Mormonism denies that and those that accept such a lie are not Christians.. IHS jim


Well, let's discuss what Mormons believe Christ is.

First, His nature has always been God. Meaning, the part of him that is eternal has always been and always will be the same. (We each have our own natures that are unique to us and eternal---which is why we sin and why our sins are not Gods fault or his creation or a flaw in us he created.)

Second, He is the Son of God. He came to earth, had a mortal body, died and was resurrected and still has a glorified exalted body.

Third, He died to redeem us from the Fall. His death justified the law. Or in other words, because we all fell like Adam, His life allows us to rise again.

Fourth, He is the judge in Israel and we will stand before Him and be judged "according to our works"--whether they are good or evil. As Christ has paid the price and because he knows us fully, he will judge us fairly and justly.