Is it dishonest to tell the truth?

[Billyray]

And there will always be people like billy who will "tell" the people exactly like that too..."Hey! Did you know that Mormons believe Jesus and Satan are actually brothers?!"

. . .It's pretty dishonest, but it isn't new nor surprising when people do it.

1. Is it dishonest to tell people the truth?

Or

2. Is it dishonest to hide things from people like secret ceremonies, deeper doctrine, and where the ***hing money goes?

[Snow Patrol]

1. Is it dishonest to tell people the truth?


Nope




2. Is it dishonest to hide things from people like secret ceremonies, deeper doctrine, and where the ***hing money goes?


Like... all it takes to be saved is belief in Jesus Christ? Except that it has to be the mainstream Christianity teaching of Christ as a Trinity, etc. etc.

[Sir]

1. Is it dishonest to tell people the truth?

Or

2. Is it dishonest to hide things from people like secret ceremonies, deeper doctrine, and where the ***hing money goes?

And i responded to billyray with this, which he conveniently is not presenting:

"c'mon...don't pretend to not understand what I just said.

Presenting LDS beliefs dishonest? No.

Presenting LDS beliefs by reshaping them into a form to shock people, and in a way to make it appear that LDS believe something when the basis for that belief is left out to give the real doctrine and belief IS dishonest. I gave a great example about the sex thing. On its face all you have to do is say that God had sex with mary (which is an oft repeated attack from you guys). But then when you dig deeper that isn't what LDS doctrine is at all. So what you've done is take something, reshape it, reword it, and make it look to be something it really isn't.

Dishonest."

To which billyray replied:

"Truth is truth. You seem to think that it is dishonest to tell the truth. You are sadly mistaken."

See? This is a perfect example of what is being talked about. If billy believes something is TRUE, then to him it is not dishonest to go around proclaiming it as such. The example I give above is a great one because it proves my point. LDS doctrine is NOT that God had sex with Mary to procreate Jesus. But this is how critics like billyray will present our belief that the Father is Jesus' father. He will call that truth, but he will not divulge the actual DOCTRINE of the conception of Jesus. Why? Because that would undermind the shock-value that making a statement about sex would invoke.

And also, notice that after i explained to billyray about the difference in presenting LDS doctrine with all the correct information vs. presenting it in a salacious and reworded form to shock people WITHOUT the added context, he says,


You seem to think that it is dishonest to tell the truth

So, ironically, while creating a thread about being dishonest to tell the truth, in the OP billy dishonestly claims and presents as truth that I somehow believe telling the truth is dishonest.

And THAT is what is dishonest.

Sadly.

[Billyray]

Like... all it takes to be saved is belief in Jesus Christ? Except that it has to be the mainstream Christianity teaching of Christ as a Trinity, etc. etc.

Christians will tell you what they believe. Our churches tell you exactly where they spend the money. LDS on the other hand hide their doctrine, hide their temple ceremony, and hide where they spend their money.

[Sir]

Nope


Like... all it takes to be saved is belief in Jesus Christ? Except that it has to be the mainstream Christianity teaching of Christ as a Trinity, etc. etc.

Exactly.

btw, see my other response to this thread. billyray claims I believe it is dishonest to tell the truth, which I never said and even explained in detail my position.

This in ITSELF is being dishonest, and should prove my point beyond a shadow of a doubt.

[Sir]

Christians will tell you what they believe. Our churches tell you exactly where they spend the money. LDS on the other hand hide their doctrine, hide their temple ceremony, and hide where they spend their money.

I am always fascinated that critics of the LDS church are so obsessed with what we do with our money.

[Billyray]

If billy believes something is TRUE, then to him it is not dishonest to go around proclaiming it as such.

Here is my post that got this started. Is there anything in my post that is incorrect?

Simple. You tell them about it. Most people don't know that you guys teach that Jesus and Satan are brothers. Most people don't know that you guys teach that they were begotten and born to a heavenly mother. Did that answer your question?

[Sir]

Here is my post that got this started. Is there anything in my post that is incorrect?

Still doesn't explain why you lied in this thread and claimed I am of the position that it is dishonest to tell the truth.

You like to ignore the things that refute your argument, so you can make your dishonest claims againt others.

That is a sad commentary on you.

And it is dishonest.

And I understand why you will not address my post in this thread that explains it once again how you took my comments and ignored half of them to make your dishonest claim.

I thought you were better than that.:(

[Billyray]

I am always fascinated that critics of the LDS church are so obsessed with what we do with our money.

It amazes Christians that LDS hide where they spent their money. To us that raises a big red flag.

Here is an example of a Christian relief organization and they boldly provide details of where they spend their money.

www.samaritanspurse.org

http://www.samaritanspurse.org/pdf/2010_Form990.pdf

http://issuu.com/samaritanspurse/docs/4288_sp_2010_financials.final?viewMode=presentatio n&mode=embed

[Billyray]

Still doesn't explain why you lied in this thread and claimed I am of the position that it is dishonest to tell the truth.

Here is my post

Simple. You tell them about it. Most people don't know that you guys teach that Jesus and Satan are brothers. Most people don't know that you guys teach that they were begotten and born to a heavenly mother. Did that answer your question?
This was your post

Same goes for other beliefs. Critics like billyray would say things like, "Hey! Did you know that Mormons believe that God had sex with mary to make Jesus?!"

Can you tell me what was dishonest in my post or what was inaccurate?

[Billyray]

So are LDS willing to open up and tell America what you really believe?

Or are you afraid to do so?

[Billyray]

Here are the financials for Samaritan's Purse


www.samaritanspurse.org

http://www.samaritanspurse.org/pdf/2010_Form990.pdf

http://issuu.com/samaritanspurse/doc...ion&mode=embed



Now where can we find the financials for the LDS church?

[Sir]

It amazes Christians that LDS hide where they spent their money. To us that raises a big red flag.



That's my point.

As a Mormon, I couldn't care less where your church, or any other church spends its money or how much it brings in, or on what the money is used. Why? Because it does not concern me at all.

And yet, Mormon-critics often attack the church for their financial practices.

And funnier still, the people that actually actively and cheerfully give money to the church don't even care. Why? Because we have faith the money is in the care of honest stewards of it. And if not, that is on them, not me.

[Billyray]

As a Mormon, I couldn't care less where your church, or any other church spends its money or how much it brings in, or on what the money is used. Why? Because it does not concern me at all.


They why do you guys always talk about a paid ministry and why did you have in the temple ceremony pre 1990 that Satan pays ministers for their service?

[Sir]

Can you tell me what was dishonest in my post or what was inaccurate?

Sure.

Simply saying that Mormons believe Jesus and Satan are brothers without explaining the context is being dishonest, since you are aware that on its face it appears to imply a brotherhood or a common bond of the two.

Would it be dishonest to call you an anti-mormon? On its face it seems like a pejoritive and most critics of LDS dislike that term and call it inaccurate. They have to add context and clarify their position as being against the doctrine not the people etc.., but the point is the same. Once there is contect and clarifiers, a statements of fact can have a more accurate meaning.

[Billyray]

As a Mormon, I couldn't care less where your church, or any other church spends its money or how much it brings in, or on what the money is used. Why? Because it does not concern me at all.



And I could care less where the Mormon Church spends it's money because it is not my money but it is deceptive to hide where all that money goes and raises a big red flag.

[Billyray]

Sure.

Simply saying that Mormons believe Jesus and Satan are brothers without explaining the context is being dishonest, since you are aware that on its face it appears to imply a brotherhood or a common bond of the two.


OK you put it into words that is acceptable to you with respect to Jesus and Satan being spiritual brothers.

[Sir]

They why do you guys always talk about a paid ministry and why did you have in the temple ceremony pre 1990 that Satan pays ministers for their service?

Nice try.

Not even close to the same thing, and you know it.

unless you can provide a quote of any LDS here asking to see the financial salaries of christian pastors, or where LDS have asked to see and know where all your money is going, then maybe we can discuss it.

[Billyray]

Would it be dishonest to call you an anti-mormon?

Nope


. . .

[Sir]

And I could care less where the Mormon Church spends it's money because it is not my money but it is deceptive to hide where all that money goes and raises a big red flag.

See?

I couldn't care less about your money

But you said you COULD care less about LDS money, implying you do care a little. ;)

The only red flags are the ones that Mormon-critics see because they think they should be privelaged to be in the know of their enemy's information.

[Billyray]

But you said you COULD care less about LDS money, implying you do care a little.
The issue is that they do not tell you where the money goes.

[Sir]

Nope


. . .

Then you are the FIRST Mormon critic on here, or even CARM to make such a statement. The rest of your cohorts cry foul and get very upset when they are called that. In fact, that's one of the reasons that term was banned from being used here.

EDIT: I wonder if you HAD to say that since by claiming otherwise you would see and reveal the hole in your position. Again, you are the ONLY Mormon-critic to claim it would be accurate to call you an anti-mormon, while all the others would correct you or add qualifiers to the term to make it more reflective of their position......which is what this whole discussion is about.

[Sir]

The issue is that they do not tell you where the money goes.

I haven't given you any money.

Will you email me your last tax return?

If yes, great!

If no, you are simply being a hypocrite.

[Billyray]

I haven't given you any money.

Will you email me your last tax return?

I am glad that you asked about a tax return form. Here is the tax return form from Samaritan's Purse and you did not give them any money. They have nothing to hide and provide the tax form to anyone who desires to look at it.

http://www.samaritanspurse.org/pdf/2010_Form990.pdf

[Sir]

I am glad that you asked about a tax return form. Here is the tax return form from Samaritan's Purse and you did not give them any money. They have nothing to hide and provide the tax form to anyone who desires to look at it.

http://www.samaritanspurse.org/pdf/2010_Form990.pdf

Ahhh.....the old dodge, duck, evasion and, in this instance, DISHONEST answer since I asked for YOUR tax return and knowing this you changed my request to simply asking for 'a' tax return.

Thank you for showing us all that, once again, your logic and hypocrisy has come back to bite you in the rear and that actually having an "HONEST' discussion would have proved fatal to your position and therefore you needed to twist it around.

[Billyray]

Ahhh.....the old dodge, duck, evasion and, in this instance, DISHONEST answer since I asked for YOUR tax return and knowing this you changed my request to simply asking for 'a' tax return.

No duck at all I have never once asked you about an individual member's tax return or their contribution. This is about the Church organization not individuals. I provided you with the Samaritan's Purse Tax return. Care to provide the same from your organization?


http://www.samaritanspurse.org/pdf/2010_Form990.pdf

[Sir]

No duck at all....

It's really okay, billyray. I don't really want to see your tax returns. I just wanted to make my point clear, and you did such a good *** for me. YOU may not call it ducking, but anyone reading this thread is probably shaking their head and wondering if you really believe the things you say and do and how you can say and do them and turn around and say you AREN'T doing them.

And you want to have a discussion about being honest?

LOL

[Billyray]

It's really okay, billyray. I don't really want to see your tax returns.

Can you point out where I even once talked about individual tax returns or individual donations. And can you tell me what on earth my tax returns or your tax returns has anything to do with how the LDS spends it's money?

This is simply a diversion on your part to take the heat off of the LDS church. Anyone reading this thread will see your tactics.

[Billyray]

LOL

Did you look at the tax return for Samaritan's Purse?

Does the LDS church provide any tax returns for us to look at?

[Sir]

Can you point out where I even once talked about individual tax returns or individual donations. And can you tell me what on earth my tax returns or your tax returns has anything to do with how the LDS spends it's money?

This is simply a diversion on your part to take the heat off of the LDS church. Anyone reading this thread will see your tactics.

My tactic should be plain for all to see, of course!

You want to see the financial records of someone who you have no business with, which since it's none of your business your request is moot.

I have no business with your finances, so to be fair to your request, I would like you to provide your financial records to me.

The OBVIOUS point that you CHOOSE to avoid is that you are a hypocrite for demanding that others show you their money (of which you have no business with) when you are unwilling to do the same when asked of you.

You call it a diversion. I call it showing how "honest" you are being in your "honesty" thread.

[Sir]

Did you look at the tax return for Samaritan's Purse?

Does the LDS church provide any tax returns for us to look at?

I don't have any interest (business or otherwise) with that group so I don't have a reason to look at their finances. i don't care.

That's the point.

You have no business with the LDS finances, so the fact that you care what they do with their money shows some kind of problem you have.

[Billyray]

You want to see the financial records of someone who you have no business with, which since it's none of your business your request is moot.

So this justifies the Mormon church in your mind to hide where the money goes?

Why do other churches offer to show where their money goes and yet the LDS church does not?

[Sir]

So this justifies the Mormon church in your mind to hide where the money goes?

Why do other churches offer to show where their money goes and yet the LDS church does not?

So why do some people show their tax returns, but you do not?

(like shooting fish in a barrel) :)

[Snow Patrol]

Bottom line is that the LDS believe ***hes and offerings are really the Lord's money. What the Lord and His servants want to do with the money is up to them. Who am I to tell the Lord what to do with His money and require that He report back to me on His stewardship with that money?

[Billyray]

So why do some people show their tax returns, but you do not?

Because it has nothing to do with the individual but with the organization.

What purpose is there to show my taxes or your taxes. I don't quite follow you reasoning here.

[Billyray]

Bottom line is that the LDS believe ***hes and offerings are really the Lord's money. What the Lord and His servants want to do with the money is up to them. Who am I to tell the Lord what to do with His money and require that He report back to me on His stewardship with that money?

For a large organization to hide where they spent their money simply raises a big red flag.

[Snow Patrol]

Well, why don't you tell us what church you go to so we can all find things to nit-pick about your church.

[alanmolstad]

Sure.

Simply saying that Mormons believe Jesus and Satan are brothers without explaining the context.....

The context is that Satan wants to be seen as being equal to god...that's his dream, that's his goal, that what he has wanted from the beginning.

To be seen as being equal to god.

But the problem is that none of the angels, fallen or faithful, actually will ever believe for a second that Satan is equal to god.
So this means that Satan has to appear equal to God to men.
Angels are not fooled, but men are always easy to fool if they don't know the Bible.

Thus Satan has been able to reach his goal of appearing equal to god within the Mormon church.
The moment the Mormons started to teach that Jesus and Satan are brothers, it was the same as saying that Satan is equal to god, (the reason being that Jesus is God)


This is why I think that not only is Mormonism wrong, it's evil.

[theway]

The context is that Satan wants to be seen as being equal to god...that's his dream, that's his goal, that what he has wanted from the beginning.

To be seen as being equal to god.

But the problem is that none of the angels, fallen or faithful, actually will ever believe for a second that Satan is equal to god.
So this means that Satan has to appear equal to God to men.
Angels are not fooled, but men are always easy to fool if they don't know the Bible.

Thus Satan has been able to reach his goal of appearing equal to god within the Mormon church.
The moment the Mormons started to teach that Jesus and Satan are brothers, it was the same as saying that Satan is equal to god, (the reason being that Jesus is God)


This is why I think that not only is Mormonism wrong, it's evil.
Once you err not knowing the scriptures....
Satan's sin was not that he wanted to be equal to god.

Back to the books.... Or should I say The Book.

[RealFakeHair]

Once you err not knowing the scriptures....
Satan's sin was not that he wanted to be equal to god.

Back to the books.... Or should I say The Book.
What was Satan's sin?

[alanmolstad]

What was Satan's sin?
I think it was Pride...

Remember RealFakehair- that Satan wants to be equal with God.

Now clearly he knows that there is only one God, and that he will never actually be God, so this points us to the answer that Satan wants to be seen as God.

That is the form of equality with God that Satan seems after with his statement - "I will be like the Most High"

So that is why I believe that within the teachings of Smith we see Satan actually reach the goal he has been seeking all this time.
The moment the Mormons started teaching that Satan and Jesus were brothers, it was just what Satan wanted to hear..

because as we all know, Jesus is God almighty, when the Mormons made Satan the brother of jesus they made Satan equal with God Almighty.

[alanmolstad]

The Mormon Jesus is just the brother of Satan......its a fact.....

and Billy is correct to point this fact out to all in the beginning of any conversation he sees fit

[Christian]

That's my point.

As a Mormon, I couldn't care less where your church, or any other church spends its money or how much it brings in, or on what the money is used. Why? Because it does not concern me at all.

And yet, Mormon-critics often attack the church for their financial practices.

And funnier still, the people that actually actively and cheerfully give money to the church don't even care. Why? Because we have faith the money is in the care of honest stewards of it. And if not, that is on them, not me.

To say that people don't care where the money they spend goes is ludicrous. Mormons OFTEN attack us by telling us we have bankrupt churches and they don't. . .MONEY claims. . .so why should you whine when WE bring the subject up.

BTW even the faithful CATHOLICS have shown concern for their religion's misspending of THE MONEY THEY GAVE being used to pay for legal costs arising from their HIDING OF PEDOPHILE PRIESTS.

Mormons are no different. THEY are human beings too, and MANY of them are just as sinful as anyone else. So your bishop, stake president and others are just as likely to steal from the kitty as Judas was.

[dberrie2000]

2. Is it dishonest to hide things from people like secret ceremonies, deeper doctrine, ...

You tell us, Billyray:


Revelation 2:17----King James Version (KJV)

17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

[alanmolstad]

You tell us, Billyray:


Revelation 2:17----King James Version (KJV)

17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.


The whereabouts of Mr Billy are a mystery to many here...
I have asked around but there is no word....perhaps he might get a notice email that someone has responded to something he once posted and he might answer?