The Thief

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000
I didn't state they were the same--I stated they were connected in the scriptures.



So then when it says born again in John 3 you realize that it is not speaking about water baptism?

You just changed the goalposts. Here is your statement:


Originally Posted by Billyray
But you realize that born of the spirit does not mean water baptism.

You just switched the topic from the spirit being connected to water baptism in the scriptures, to born again not meaning water baptism.

How that converts to born again not speaking about water baptism is anybody's guess.

[Billyray]

Sorry--but your request to prove to you something that you already have your mind made up about is nothing to their witness--puny, indeed.
You don't believe the writings of the ECF's are scripture nor do I. And I have told you I don't take my theology from non scriptural sources. If you have a case to make--make it from the Bible. That should be easy enough for you do, don't you think? But the fact that you have to run to sources outside the Bible tells me that you can't do it can you?

[Billyray]

Billyray
So then when it says born again in John 3 you realize that it is not speaking about water baptism?

DB
You just changed the goalposts. Here is your statement:

I can ask you anything I want DB. Care to answer my question?

So then when it says born again in John 3 you realize that it is not speaking about water baptism?

[Billyray]

Billyray
But you realize that born of the spirit does not mean water baptism.

dberrie---But that is also connected in the scriptures to repentance and water baptism:

Billyray
But they are not the same.

Db
I didn't state they were the same--I stated they were connected in the scriptures.

Billyray
So then when it says born again in John 3 you realize that it is not speaking about water baptism?

[dberrie2000]

I can ask you anything I want DB. Care to answer my question?

So then when it says born again in John 3 you realize that it is not speaking about water baptism?

Huh? Are you asking that as a joke--or are you serious?

As I stated to you--the witness of the Early Church Fathers that I printed for you testify against you.

They all agreed--the water in St John5:3 is water baptism--and they tied it to regeneration and eternal life--saying that no one could enter into life without it(as did Christ).

Their witness is in unison--they all agreed with a strong witness that it was water baptism.

Who do you believe you are to stand against their witness--of those, as a unit, that some sat at the feet of the living apostles, and were part of the Apostolic times?

Who? Are you trying to get us to believe what fits your theology--and would dare to deny those things that they all testified to?

Why? Because you believe your witness is more powerful? More convincing?

Give it up, Billyray. It's offensive to hear and see that kind of pride.

[Billyray]

Huh? Are you asking that as a joke--or are you serious?


My question is not a joke brother berrie.

So then when it says born again in John 3 you realize that it is not speaking about water baptism?

[BigJulie]

Christ lived under the law does that mean that you follow Christ's example and live under the law?

Do you believe that Christ was baptized as part of the law of Moses when He went to the River Jordan and was baptized?

[Billyray]

Do you believe that Christ was baptized as part of the law of Moses when He went to the River Jordan and was baptized?

You didn't answer my question

Christ lived under the law does that mean that you follow Christ's example and live under the law?

[dberrie2000]

My question is not a joke brother berrie.

So then when it says born again in John 3 you realize that it is not speaking about water baptism?

Billyray--considering what you and I have talked about, one would have to be almost joking to ask a question such as that of me.

Born again in St John3:5 is definitely speaking about water baptism--that is a certainty for me.

It was one thing the EC Fathers agreed on.

[Billyray]

Born again in St John3:5 is definitely speaking about water baptism--that is a certainty for me.


Billyray
But you realize that born of the spirit does not mean water baptism.

dberrie---But that is also connected in the scriptures to repentance and water baptism:

Billyray
But they are not the same.

Db
I didn't state they were the same--I stated they were connected in the scriptures.

[dberrie2000]

Billyray
But you realize that born of the spirit does not mean water baptism.

dberrie---But that is also connected in the scriptures to repentance and water baptism:

Billyray
But they are not the same.

Db
I didn't state they were the same--I stated they were connected in the scriptures.

What is your question here? I understand that born of the Spirit is not referring to water baptism. Born of water is. They are both connected in the scriptures. Together--they are the born again experience Christ referred to in St John3:5.

[Billyray]

They are both connected in the scriptures. Together--they are the born again experience Christ referred to in St John3:5.

John 3
4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

What does it mean to be born of the flesh? Is this water baptism?

[dberrie2000]

John 3
4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

What does it mean to be born of the flesh? Is this water baptism?

No. That means the physical birth that Nicodemus was referring to. It was not a reference to the water in the born again experience.

The comment by Christ of concerning the--1) born of flesh and 2) Born of Spirit in v6 was not a divisional statement concerning Christ's being born of water and the Spirit--but a divisional statement differentiating Nicodemus' physical understanding, and Christ's spiritual rebirth--being born of the water and the Spirit.

[Billyray]

No. That means the physical birth that Nicodemus was referring to. It was not a reference to the water in the born again experience.


Just like born of water is referring to the physical birth. Right?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000
No. That means the physical birth that Nicodemus was referring to. It was not a reference to the water in the born again experience.


Just like born of water is referring to the physical birth. Right?

Please reread my post.

[Apologette]

Origen

Whoever dies in his sins, even if he profess to believe in Christ, does not truly believe in him; and even if that which exists without works be called faith, such faith is dead in itself, as we read in the epistle bearing the name of James (Commentaries on John 19:6 [A.D.226-232]

Gregory of Nyssa

Paul, joining righteousness to faith and weaving them together, constructs of them the breastplates for the infantryman, armoring the soldier properly and safely on both sides. A soldier cannot be considered safely armored when either shield is disjoined from the other. Faith without works of justice is not sufficient for salvation; neither is righteous living secure in itself of salvation, if it is disjoined from faith (Homilies on Ecclesiastes 8 [ca. A.D. 335- 394]).

Jerome

But since in the Law no one is justified before God, it is evident that the just man lives by faith.' It should be noted that he does not say that a man, a person, lives by faith, lest it be thought that he is condemning good works. Rather, he says the 'just' man lives by faith. He implies thereby that
whoever would be faithful and would conduct his life according to the faith can in no other way arrive at the faith or live in it except first he be a just man of pure life, coming up to the faith by certain degrees (Commentaries on Galatians 2:3:11 [A.D. 386]).


This is reflective of the LDS position on faith and works and the thief.


How does the position of the Early Church Fathers compare to those who maintain that the thief was granted eternal life at the cross, and had not obedience to Christ?

You realize, of course, that Origen is not a father of the Church, right? He mutilated himself by castration. I think your sexual gods would frown on that.

[Billyray]

No. That means the physical birth that Nicodemus was referring to. It was not a reference to the water in the born again experience.


5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

You answer doesn't make sense in context with the surrounding verses. There is no mention of water baptism but rather physical birth verse spiritual birth.

[dberrie2000]

You realize, of course, that Origen is not a father of the Church, right?

Origen ( /ˈɒrɪdʒən/; Greek: Ὠριγένης Ōrigénēs), or Origen Adamantius (184/185 – 253/254),[1] was an early Christian Alexandrian scholar and theologian, and one of the most distinguished writers of the early Church. As early as the fourth century, his orthodoxy was suspect, largely because he believed in the pre-existence and apokatastasis, or universal reconciliation, ideas acknowledged to be beyond the pale of Christianity.[2] Today he is generally regarded as one of the Church Fathers.[3][4]

Origen is considered a Church Father by most--and one of the most brilliant theologians of his time. If you look up Church Father--you will find him listed among the early Church Fathers, for the main.

[dberrie2000]

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

You answer doesn't make sense in context with the surrounding verses. There is no mention of water baptism but rather physical birth verse spiritual birth.

What does not make sense is that Jesus split His born again declaration into two parts--one physical and one spiritual.

"Born again" forever excludes any possibility of a physical birth. That was Nicodemus' mistake.


So--let's do look at the surrounding verses:

St John3:3-6--"Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.


I color coded the scriptures to identify relative statements.


Why would Jesus refer to being "born again"--then split it up it into a physical and spiritual?


Early Church Fathers explained it that way, that is--that the water represented water baptism in the born again statement of Christ in John3:5--as my previous posts show.



So--let's do a practical application--let's show what scriptures involve this "born again" process--which involves the water and the Spirit, me first:


Matthew3:16--"And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:"

Now--your turn. Seeing the importance, one must be able to see it taught, practiced, and performed throughout the Biblical NT history. Water baptism is found throughout the NT history. What scriptures have you to demonstrate the born again process?

[Billyray]

What does not make sense is that Jesus split His born again declaration into two parts--one physical and one spiritual.

"Born again" forever excludes any possibility of a physical birth. That was Nicodemus' mistake.


So--let's do look at the surrounding verses:

St John3:3-6--"Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.


I color coded the scriptures to identify relative statements.

Water baptism is nowhere to be found in this section of scripture. The only way that you would come up with this is to ***ume it into the p***age. The whole section compares physical birth with spiritual birth. Physical birth is mentioned in all of the verses. You also see th parallelism between verses 5 and 6 between physical birth and spiritual birth.

[Billyray]

Matthew3:16--"And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:"


Matthew 3
11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

[Billyray]

John 3
4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8 The wind ****eth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

Notice that there is not a single mention of water baptism in this entire pasaage. Then note at the end of verse 7 it mentions born again and goes on to describe it in verse 8. Do you see water baptism in verse 8 anywhere?

[Billyray]

Do you believe that Christ was baptized as part of the law of Moses when He went to the River Jordan and was baptized?

The Old Covenant, ordinances and sacrifices, temple structure and furnishings pointed to Christ. Christ lived under the law and yes I do believe that his baptism was part of fulfiling the OT law.

[Billyray]

What does not make sense is that Jesus split His born again declaration into two parts--one physical and one spiritual.

Christ didn't break born again into two parts. What are you talking about?

[dberrie2000]

Christ didn't break born again into two parts. What are you talking about?

I know Jesus did not break His born again into a physical and a spiritual:

St John3:5--"Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."

[Billyray]

I know Jesus did not break His born again into a physical and a spiritual:

St John3:5--"Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."

So why do you ***ume that born again includes water baptism?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000
I know Jesus did not break His born again into a physical and a spiritual:

St John3:5--"Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."



So why do you ***ume that born again includes water baptism?

Because it did:

Matthew3:16--"And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:"

Being born of water and of the Spirit.

[Billyray]

Because it did:

Matthew3:16--"And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:"

Being born of water and of the Spirit.
But it doesn't say that in the John 3 p***age which is the p***age we were speaking about.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000
Because it did:

Matthew3:16--"And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:"

Being born of water and of the Spirit.




But it doesn't say that in the John 3 p***age which is the p***age we were speaking about.


It most certainly does:


St John3:5--"Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."

[Billyray]

It most certainly does:


St John3:5--"Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."

Water baptism is not mentioned at all in this section of scripture. You are ***uming it into the text and it doesn't fit with the surrounding verses.

[dberrie2000]

Water baptism is not mentioned at all in this section of scripture. You are ***uming it into the text and it doesn't fit with the surrounding verses.

The Early Church Fathers would beg to disagree, unanimously:


ST. JUSTIN MARTYR (inter A.D. 148-155)

Whoever is convinced and believes that what they are taught and told by us is the truth, and professes to be able to live accordingly, is instructed to pray and to beseech God in fasting for the remission of their former sins, while we pray and fast with them. Then they are led by us to a place where there is water; and there they are reborn in the same kind of rebirth in which we ourselves were reborn: In the name of God, the Lord and Father of all, and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they receive the washing with water. For Christ said, "Unless you be reborn, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven." ...The reason for doing this, we have learned from the Apostles. (The First Apology 61)

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ST. IRENAEUS (c. A.D. 190)

"And [Naaman] dipped himself...seven times in the Jordan" [2 Kings 5:14]. It was not for nothing that Naaman of old, when suffering from leprosy, was purified upon his being baptized, but [this served] as an indication to us. For as we are lepers in sin, we are made clean, by means of the sacred water and the invocation of the Lord, from our old transgressions, being spiritually regenerated as new-born babes, even as the Lord has declared: "Except a man be born again through water and the Spirit, he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven." (Fragment 34)

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TERTULLIAN (inter A.D. 200-206)

A treatise on our sacrament of water, by which the sins of our earlier blindness are washed away and we are released for eternal life will not be superfluous.....taking away death by the washing away of sins. The guilt being removed, the penalty, of course, is also removed.....Baptism is itself a corporal act by which we are plunged in water, while its effect is spiritual, in that we are freed from sins. (On Baptism 1:1; 5:6; 7:2)

...no one can attain salvation without Baptism, especially in view of the declaration of the Lord, who says: "Unless a man shall be born of water, he shall not have life." (On Baptism 12:1)

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RECOGNITIONS OF CLEMENT (c. A.D. 221)

But you will perhaps say, "What does the baptism of water contribute toward the worship of God?" In the first place, because that which has pleased God is fulfilled. In the second place, because when you are regenerated and born again of water and of God, the frailty of your former birth, which you have through men, is cut off, and so ...you shall be able to attain salvation; but otherwise it is impossible. For thus has the true Prophet [Jesus] testified to us with an oath: "Verily, I say to you, that unless a man is born again of water....he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven." (Recognitions 6:9)

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ST. CYPRIAN OF CARTHAGE (c. 200 - 258 A.D.)

[When] they receive also the Baptism of the Church...then finally can they be fully sanctified and be the sons of God...since it is written, "Except a man be born again of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." (Letters 71[72]:1)

[It] behooves those to be baptized...so that they are prepared, in the lawful and true and only Baptism of the holy Church, by divine regeneration, for the kingdom of God...because it is written, "Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." (Letters 72[73]:21)

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SEVENTH COUNCIL OF CARTHAGE (c. A.D. 256)

And in the gospel our Lord Jesus Christ spoke with his divine voice, saying, "Except a man be born again of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God." ...Unless therefore they receive saving Baptism in the Catholic Church, which is one, they cannot be saved, but will be condemned with the carnal in the judgment of the Lord Christ.

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ST. CYRIL OF JERUSALEM (c. A.D. 350)
If any man does not receive Baptism, he does not have salvation. The only exception is the martyrs, who, even without water, will receive the kingdom....for the Savior calls martyrdom a Baptism (cf. Mark 10:38) ...Bearing your sins, you go down into the water; but the calling down of grace seals your soul and does not permit that you afterwards be swallowed up by the fearsome dragon. You go down dead in your sins, and come up made alive in righteousness. (Catechetical Lectures 3:10,12)

Since man is of a twofold nature, composed of body and soul, the purification also is twofold: the corporeal for the corporeal and the incorporeal for the incorporeal. The water cleanses the body, and the Spirit seals the soul....When you go down into the water, then, regard not simply the water, but look for salvation through the power of the Holy Spirit. For without both you cannot attain to perfection. It is not I who says this, but the Lord Jesus Christ, who has the power in this matter.

And He says, "Unless a man be born again" -- and He adds the words "of water and of the Spirit" -- "he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." He that is baptized with water, but is not found worthy of the Spirit, does not receive the grace in perfection. Nor, if a man be virtuous in his deeds, but does not receive the seal by means of the water, shall he enter the kingdom of heaven.

A bold saying, but not mine; for it is Jesus who has declared it.

(Catechetical Lectures 3:4)

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ST. BASIL THE GREAT (c. A.D. 330 - 379)

For prisoners, Baptism is ransom, forgiveness of debts, death of sin, regeneration of the soul, a resplendent garment, an unbreakable seal, a chariot to heaven, a protector royal, a gift of adoption. (Sermons on Moral and Practical Subjects: On Baptism 13:5)

This then is what it means to be "born again of water and Spirit" : just as our dying is effected in the water [Rom 6:3-4; Col 2:11-13], our living is wrought through the Spirit. In three immersions and in an equal number of invocations the great mystery of Baptism is completed in such a way that the type of death may be shown figuratively, and that by the handing on of divine knowledge the souls of the baptized may be illuminated. If, therefore, there is any grace in the water, it is not from the nature of water but from the Spirit's presence there. (On the Holy Spirit 15:35)

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ST. AMBROSE OF MILAN (c. A.D. 333 - 397)



The Church was redeemed at the price of Christ's blood. Jew or Greek, it makes no difference; but if he has believed, he must circumcise himself from his sins [in Baptism -- Col 2:11-13] so that he can be saved...for no one ascends into the kingdom of heaven except through the sacrament of Baptism...."Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God." (On Abraham 2:11:79,84)

You have read, therefore, that the three witnesses in Baptism are one: water, blood and the Spirit [1 John 5:8]: and if you withdraw any one of these, the sacrament of Baptism is not valid. For what is the water without the cross of Christ? A common element with no sacramental effect. Nor on the other hand is there any mystery of regeneration without water: for "unless a man be born again of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God." (On the Mysteries 4:20)

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APOSTOLIC CONS***UTIONS (c. A.D. 400)

Be ye likewise contented with one Baptism alone, that which is into the death of the Lord [Rom 6:3-4; Col 2:11-13]...he that out of contempt will not be baptized shall be condemned as an unbeliever and shall be reproached as ungrateful and foolish. For the Lord says, "Except a man be baptized of water and of the Spirit, he shall by no means enter into the kingdom of heaven." And again, "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved, but he that believeth not shall be ****ed." (6:3:15)

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[jdjhere]

DBerrie2000 and BillyRay- Do you two actually WORK A ***?? :) (Seems like you are here all the time... just saying...)

[dberrie2000]

DBerrie2000 and BillyRay- Do you two actually WORK A ***?? :) (Seems like you are here all the time... just saying...)

I retired after 40 years with the Government last week.

I don't usually spend that much time here--but it is storming here, and I cannot get out today--and I have been sick for a week.

So--probably will be around sometimes--but can't wait to get to my duties.

[Billyray]

Why was the thief saved given the fact that there is no evidence that he was ever baptized?

[BigJulie]

Why was the thief saved given the fact that there is no evidence that he was ever baptized?

Is there evidence he was not baptized?

[Billyray]

Is there evidence he was not baptized?

There is no indication that the thief was baptized. Do you believe that he was baptized? If so what is the basis for this belief?

[BigJulie]

There is no indication that the thief was baptized. Do you believe that he was baptized? If so what is the basis for this belief?

There is also no indication that he was not.

[Billyray]

There is also no indication that he was not.

So is it your belief that the thief was baptized despite no evidence that he was?

[BigJulie]

So is it your belief that the thief was baptized despite no evidence that he was?

Is it your belief he wasn't in spite of the fact that there is no evidence that he wasn't?

[Billyray]

Is it your belief he wasn't in spite of the fact that there is no evidence that he wasn't?

There is no evidence that the thief was baptized. If you believe that he was please give me some evidence for this.

[BigJulie]

There is no evidence that the thief was baptized. If you believe that he was please give me some evidence for this.

And there was no evidence the thief was not baptized. Please give me your evidence that he was not.

[Billyray]

And there was no evidence the thief was not baptized. Please give me your evidence that he was not.

If you believe that he was baptized then the burden of proof rests with you to prove that.

[BigJulie]

If you believe that he was baptized then the burden of proof rests with you to prove that.

Not any more than it rests with you to prove he wasn't.

[Billyray]

Not any more than it rests with you to prove he wasn't.
There is nothing that says he was baptized but if you claim that he was then it is up to you to give me proof that this was the case.

[BigJulie]

There is nothing that says he was baptized but if you claim that he was then it is up to you to give me proof that this was the case.

There is nothing that says that he was not baptized, but if you claim that he wasn't then it is up to you to give me the proof that this is the case.

[Billyray]

There is nothing that says that he was not baptized, but if you claim that he wasn't then it is up to you to give me the proof that this is the case.
Here was my post

Why was the thief saved given the fact that there is no evidence that he was ever baptized?

[BigJulie]

Here was my post

And I state--what is your evidence that he was not baptized?

[Billyray]

And I state--what is your evidence that he was not baptized?
". . .there is no evidence that he was ever baptized"

[alanmolstad]

The thief was saved just like we all are.
He repented of his sins, he turned o the Lord and confessed his faith.

This is a person finds the lord...

[dberrie2000]

The thief was saved just like we all are.
He repented of his sins, he turned o the Lord and confessed his faith.

This is a person finds the lord...


Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)

In my Bible--this is what was taught for the remission of sins:


38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

[TheSword99]

Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)

In my Bible--this is what was taught for the remission of sins:


38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

in Acts 10: 44-48, we have saved people who obviously have the Holy Spirit. The unsaved cannot receive the Holy Spirit for they are an enmity of God. In this p***age, Peter is saying that these people were now Christians just like him. But guess what? They haven't gotten wet yet! Baptism comes later. Peter says because they've already received the Spirit, they can now be baptized. Thus regeneration before water baptism.

The idea that regeneration follows faith, not baptism, is also reaffirmed in Acts 11:17-18 where Paul says:

If God therefore gave to them the same gift as He gave to us also after believing in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could stand in God's way?" And when they heard this, they quieted down, and glorified God, saying, "Well then, God has granted to the Gentiles also the repentance that leads to life."

Notice there is no mention of baptism here, only repentance, faith, and salvation which leads to regeneration.

[alanmolstad]

Sword is correct.
Unsaved people can not received the gift of the HS and so.....like it or not.....Being baptized has ZERO to do with the question of getting saved!

You can get saved and not be within a million miles of a drop of water.

The baptism of a Christian is for the church to witness, it is for the unbeliever so that there is an outward sign of the thing that has happened inside the person's heart.

God does not want us to perform works as if they themselves carried some sort of magic....thats the difference between the truth Christian faith, and paganism.

In Cults and in paganism you find a lot of teachings where the salvation of the person is left up to their works....
This is why so many CULTS like Mormons and JWs are always so busy pushing their teachings...they are attempting to work their way into heaven/salvation.

But the true Christian faith has a different idea about the path to salvation.

We have to let go of our attempts to earn salvation, and rely completely on the finished work of the cross.
This is why when Jesus was asked what people could do to work the works of God?....Jesus told them there is only one work of God that matters, that you "believe" in the Son.....

[alanmolstad]

Sword is correct.
Unsaved people can not received the gift of the HS and so.....like it or not.....Being baptized has ZERO to do with the question of getting saved!

You can get saved and not be within a million miles of a drop of water.

The baptism of a Christian is for the church to witness, it is for the unbeliever so that there is an outward sign of the thing that has happened inside the person's heart.

God does not want us to perform works as if they themselves carried some sort of magic....thats the difference between the truth Christian faith, and paganism.

In Cults and in paganism you find a lot of teachings where the salvation of the person is left up to their works....
This is why so many CULTS like Mormons and JWs are always so busy pushing their teachings...they are attempting to work their way into heaven/salvation.

But the true Christian faith has a different idea about the path to salvation.

We have to let go of our attempts to earn salvation, and rely completely on the finished work of the cross.
This is why when Jesus was asked what people could do to work the works of God?....Jesus told them there is only one work of God that matters, that you "believe" in the Son.....

I like the way I put this.
It's some of my best writing...

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post---Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)

In my Bible--this is what was taught for the remission of sins:


38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.


in Acts 10: 44-48, we have saved people who obviously have the Holy Spirit. The unsaved cannot receive the Holy Spirit for they are an enmity of God.

Could you explain for us how Acts 10 somehow cancels out the fact that repentance and water baptism was taught for the remission of sins? How the ordering arrangement somehow changes that? Where does it state that people are saved first--and then repent and are baptized for the remission of sins?


In this p***age, Peter is saying that these people were now Christians just like him. But guess what? They haven't gotten wet yet! Baptism comes later.

How does that somehow cancel out the fact that repentance and water baptism was taught for the remission of sins? Peter makes this statement concerning the Gentiles in Acts10:


Acts 10:34-35---King James Version (KJV)


34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:

35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.



Peter says because they've already received the Spirit, they can now be baptized. Thus regeneration before water baptism.

Peter makes no such statement. In fact--here is what Peter states concerning water baptism:


1 Peter 3:20-21---King James Version (KJV)


20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:


Sword--the Holy Ghost and water baptism is connected in Acts 10--and for good reason:


John 3:5----King James Version (KJV)


5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.


The idea that regeneration follows faith, not baptism, is also reaffirmed in Acts 11:17-18 where Paul says:

If God therefore gave to them the same gift as He gave to us also after believing in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could stand in God's way?" And when they heard this, they quieted down, and glorified God, saying, "Well then, God has granted to the Gentiles also the repentance that leads to life."

Notice there is no mention of baptism here, only repentance, faith, and salvation which leads to regeneration.

And where do you see any mention of Paul stating that regeneration happened prior to water baptism? Paul believed the same thing that was taught him:


Acts 22:16---King James Version (KJV)


16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

Sword--the Early Church Fathers were unanimous in the fact they connected water baptism as the point of regeneration:


ST. JUSTIN MARTYR (inter A.D. 148-155)

Whoever is convinced and believes that what they are taught and told by us is the truth, and professes to be able to live accordingly, is instructed to pray and to beseech God in fasting for the remission of their former sins, while we pray and fast with them. Then they are led by us to a place where there is water; and there they are reborn in the same kind of rebirth in which we ourselves were reborn: In the name of God, the Lord and Father of all, and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they receive the washing with water. For Christ said, "Unless you be reborn, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven." ...The reason for doing this, we have learned from the Apostles. (The First Apology 61)

================================================== ========
ST. IRENAEUS (c. A.D. 190)

"And [Naaman] dipped himself...seven times in the Jordan" [2 Kings 5:14]. It was not for nothing that Naaman of old, when suffering from leprosy, was purified upon his being baptized, but [this served] as an indication to us. For as we are lepers in sin, we are made clean, by means of the sacred water and the invocation of the Lord, from our old transgressions, being spiritually regenerated as new-born babes, even as the Lord has declared: "Except a man be born again through water and the Spirit, he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven." (Fragment 34)

================================================== ======================

TERTULLIAN (inter A.D. 200-206)

A treatise on our sacrament of water, by which the sins of our earlier blindness are washed away and we are released for eternal life will not be superfluous.....taking away death by the washing away of sins. The guilt being removed, the penalty, of course, is also removed.....Baptism is itself a corporal act by which we are plunged in water, while its effect is spiritual, in that we are freed from sins. (On Baptism 1:1; 5:6; 7:2)

...no one can attain salvation without Baptism, especially in view of the declaration of the Lord, who says: "Unless a man shall be born of water, he shall not have life." (On Baptism 12:1)

================================================== ======================
RECOGNITIONS OF CLEMENT (c. A.D. 221)

But you will perhaps say, "What does the baptism of water contribute toward the worship of God?" In the first place, because that which has pleased God is fulfilled. In the second place, because when you are regenerated and born again of water and of God, the frailty of your former birth, which you have through men, is cut off, and so ...you shall be able to attain salvation; but otherwise it is impossible. For thus has the true Prophet [Jesus] testified to us with an oath: "Verily, I say to you, that unless a man is born again of water....he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven." (Recognitions 6:9)

================================================== ========
ST. CYPRIAN OF CARTHAGE (c. 200 - 258 A.D.)

[When] they receive also the Baptism of the Church...then finally can they be fully sanctified and be the sons of God...since it is written, "Except a man be born again of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." (Letters 71[72]:1)

[It] behooves those to be baptized...so that they are prepared, in the lawful and true and only Baptism of the holy Church, by divine regeneration, for the kingdom of God...because it is written, "Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." (Letters 72[73]:21)

================================================== ======================
ST. BASIL THE GREAT (c. A.D. 330 - 379)

For prisoners, Baptism is ransom, forgiveness of debts, death of sin, regeneration of the soul, a resplendent garment, an unbreakable seal, a chariot to heaven, a protector royal, a gift of adoption. (Sermons on Moral and Practical Subjects: On Baptism 13:5)

This then is what it means to be "born again of water and Spirit" : just as our dying is effected in the water [Rom 6:3-4; Col 2:11-13], our living is wrought through the Spirit. In three immersions and in an equal number of invocations the great mystery of Baptism is completed in such a way that the type of death may be shown figuratively, and that by the handing on of divine knowledge the souls of the baptized may be illuminated. If, therefore, there is any grace in the water, it is not from the nature of water but from the Spirit's presence there. (On the Holy Spirit 15:35)

================================================== ======================
ST. AMBROSE OF MILAN (c. A.D. 333 - 397)

The Church was redeemed at the price of Christ's blood. Jew or Greek, it makes no difference; but if he has believed, he must circumcise himself from his sins [in Baptism -- Col 2:11-13] so that he can be saved...for no one ascends into the kingdom of heaven except through the sacrament of Baptism...."Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God." (On Abraham 2:11:79,84)

You have read, therefore, that the three witnesses in Baptism are one: water, blood and the Spirit [1 John 5:8]: and if you withdraw any one of these, the sacrament of Baptism is not valid. For what is the water without the cross of Christ? A common element with no sacramental effect. Nor on the other hand is there any mystery of regeneration without water: for "unless a man be born again of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God." (On the Mysteries 4:20)

================================================== ========

[alanmolstad]

The same question gets asked over and over and over......it's kinda a sign of being crazy if you keep asking the same question and somehow expect a different answer to 'pop" up...

For the unknown-ith time, The Bible is very clear that you can become a Totally saved, Filled with the Spirit, Speaking with the gift, born again Christian, and not have gone near a drop of water.....



Kinda screws-up the CULTS that teach that you have to do some type of 'work" to get saved I know.....

That's just too bad!

[alanmolstad]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FT-8_VDMERo

Here is once again how Walter Martin answers the question of the importance of water baptism in the life of the believer.

[dberrie2000]

The same question gets asked over and over and over......it's kinda a sign of being crazy if you keep asking the same question and somehow expect a different answer to 'pop" up...

For the unknown-ith time, The Bible is very clear that you can become a Totally saved, Filled with the Spirit, Speaking with the gift, born again Christian, and not have gone near a drop of water.....

My Bible has salvation and water connected:


John 3:5---King James Version (KJV)


5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.



Kinda screws-up the CULTS that teach that you have to do some type of 'work" to get saved I know.....

Like walking in the light?


1 John 1:7---King James Version (KJV)


7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.


How does receiving God's grace in the NT differ from Abraham in the OT--they both lived under the gospel:


Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)


9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;



Genesis 26:4-5---King James Version (KJV)


4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;

5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

[Apologette]

My Bible has salvation and water connected:


John 3:5---King James Version (KJV)


5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.




Like walking in the light?


1 John 1:7---King James Version (KJV)


7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.


How does receiving God's grace in the NT differ from Abraham in the OT--they both lived under the gospel:


Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)


9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;



Genesis 26:4-5---King James Version (KJV)


4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;

5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.


So, now that you've been suspended from CARM, you bring your rant here?

Tell me, have you never studied imputation? Where belief is "reckoned" as righteousness? Here is one of the first biblical examples:


Abram believed the LORD, and he credited it to him as righteousness. Gen. 15:6 (what does that mean to you?)

By the way, water baptism is the outward sign of the inward grace of the Holy Spirit Who alone regnerates us. No phony Mormon priesthood can regenerate anybody, which is amply demonstrated here and elsewhere by the snarky, antichrist posts Mormons put up and their denial of the Gospel of Christ and the sufficiency of Jesus' Blood unto redemption.

[Billyray]

How does that somehow cancel out the fact that repentance and water baptism was taught for the remission of sins? Peter makes this statement concerning the Gentiles in Acts10:
It cancels out your false ***ertions/beliefs about these p***ages. In Acts 10 those who heard Peter received the Holy Spirit prior to doing any works including baptism.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post---My Bible has salvation and water connected:


John 3:5---King James Version (KJV)


5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.


Like walking in the light?


1 John 1:7---King James Version (KJV)


7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.


How does receiving God's grace in the NT differ from Abraham in the OT--they both lived under the gospel:


Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)


9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;



Genesis 26:4-5---King James Version (KJV)


4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;

5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.


So, now that you've been suspended from CARM, you bring your rant here?

What do you consider a rant about the above scriptures?


Tell me, have you never studied imputation?

Would that somehow change the above scriptures if I did?


Where belief is "reckoned" as righteousness? Here is one of the first biblical examples:


Abram believed the LORD, and he credited it to him as righteousness. Gen. 15:6 (what does that mean to you?)

It means that belief and obedience is connected. What is your evidence that obedience to Christ is not an integral component to belief in Christ?


By the way, water baptism is the outward sign of the inward grace of the Holy Spirit Who alone regnerates us. No phony Mormon priesthood can regenerate anybody, which is amply demonstrated here and elsewhere by the snarky, antichrist posts Mormons put up and their denial of the Gospel of Christ and the sufficiency of Jesus' Blood unto redemption.

Would you make the same claim concerning the Early Church Fathers?



ST. JUSTIN MARTYR (inter A.D. 148-155)

Whoever is convinced and believes that what they are taught and told by us is the truth, and professes to be able to live accordingly, is instructed to pray and to beseech God in fasting for the remission of their former sins, while we pray and fast with them. Then they are led by us to a place where there is water; and there they are reborn in the same kind of rebirth in which we ourselves were reborn: In the name of God, the Lord and Father of all, and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they receive the washing with water. For Christ said, "Unless you be reborn, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven." ...The reason for doing this, we have learned from the Apostles. (The First Apology 61)

================================================== ========
ST. IRENAEUS (c. A.D. 190)

"And [Naaman] dipped himself...seven times in the Jordan" [2 Kings 5:14]. It was not for nothing that Naaman of old, when suffering from leprosy, was purified upon his being baptized, but [this served] as an indication to us. For as we are lepers in sin, we are made clean, by means of the sacred water and the invocation of the Lord, from our old transgressions, being spiritually regenerated as new-born babes, even as the Lord has declared: "Except a man be born again through water and the Spirit, he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven." (Fragment 34)

================================================== ======================

TERTULLIAN (inter A.D. 200-206)

A treatise on our sacrament of water, by which the sins of our earlier blindness are washed away and we are released for eternal life will not be superfluous.....taking away death by the washing away of sins. The guilt being removed, the penalty, of course, is also removed.....Baptism is itself a corporal act by which we are plunged in water, while its effect is spiritual, in that we are freed from sins. (On Baptism 1:1; 5:6; 7:2)

...no one can attain salvation without Baptism, especially in view of the declaration of the Lord, who says: "Unless a man shall be born of water, he shall not have life." (On Baptism 12:1)

================================================== ======================
RECOGNITIONS OF CLEMENT (c. A.D. 221)

But you will perhaps say, "What does the baptism of water contribute toward the worship of God?" In the first place, because that which has pleased God is fulfilled. In the second place, because when you are regenerated and born again of water and of God, the frailty of your former birth, which you have through men, is cut off, and so ...you shall be able to attain salvation; but otherwise it is impossible. For thus has the true Prophet [Jesus] testified to us with an oath: "Verily, I say to you, that unless a man is born again of water....he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven." (Recognitions 6:9)

================================================== ========
ST. CYPRIAN OF CARTHAGE (c. 200 - 258 A.D.)

[When] they receive also the Baptism of the Church...then finally can they be fully sanctified and be the sons of God...since it is written, "Except a man be born again of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." (Letters 71[72]:1)

[It] behooves those to be baptized...so that they are prepared, in the lawful and true and only Baptism of the holy Church, by divine regeneration, for the kingdom of God...because it is written, "Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." (Letters 72[73]:21)

================================================== ======================
ST. BASIL THE GREAT (c. A.D. 330 - 379)

For prisoners, Baptism is ransom, forgiveness of debts, death of sin, regeneration of the soul, a resplendent garment, an unbreakable seal, a chariot to heaven, a protector royal, a gift of adoption. (Sermons on Moral and Practical Subjects: On Baptism 13:5)

This then is what it means to be "born again of water and Spirit" : just as our dying is effected in the water [Rom 6:3-4; Col 2:11-13], our living is wrought through the Spirit. In three immersions and in an equal number of invocations the great mystery of Baptism is completed in such a way that the type of death may be shown figuratively, and that by the handing on of divine knowledge the souls of the baptized may be illuminated. If, therefore, there is any grace in the water, it is not from the nature of water but from the Spirit's presence there. (On the Holy Spirit 15:35)

================================================== ======================
ST. AMBROSE OF MILAN (c. A.D. 333 - 397)

The Church was redeemed at the price of Christ's blood. Jew or Greek, it makes no difference; but if he has believed, he must circumcise himself from his sins [in Baptism -- Col 2:11-13] so that he can be saved...for no one ascends into the kingdom of heaven except through the sacrament of Baptism...."Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God." (On Abraham 2:11:79,84)

You have read, therefore, that the three witnesses in Baptism are one: water, blood and the Spirit [1 John 5:8]: and if you withdraw any one of these, the sacrament of Baptism is not valid. For what is the water without the cross of Christ? A common element with no sacramental effect. Nor on the other hand is there any mystery of regeneration without water: for "unless a man be born again of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God." (On the Mysteries 4:20)

So, Apologette--were all the Early Church Fathers wrong?

[dberrie2000]

It cancels out your false ***ertions/beliefs about these p***ages. In Acts 10 those who heard Peter received the Holy Spirit prior to doing any works including baptism.

And in accordance with the observation of Peter:


Acts 10:34-35----King James Version (KJV)


34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:

35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

But then--that is consistent with the scriptures--is it not?


Acts 5:32----King James Version (KJV)


32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

[Billyray]

And in accordance with the observation of Peter:

What works did those who received the Holy Spirit do prior to receiving the Holy Spirit?

[alanmolstad]

By the way, water baptism is the outward sign of the inward grace of the Holy Spirit Who alone regenerates us. ,.....

50 Points for you!, for you have answered this correctly!

[alanmolstad]

So, now that you've been suspended from CARM, you bring your rant here?

.

Are we the "drop back" website now?
They get kicked out of there and have to drop back here and to chatting with me and you?

[dberrie2000]

dberrie----And in accordance with the observation of Peter:


Acts 10:34-35----King James Version (KJV)


34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:

35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

But then--that is consistent with the scriptures--is it not?


Acts 5:32----King James Version (KJV)


32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.


What works did those who received the Holy Spirit do prior to receiving the Holy Spirit?

How does listing the specific obedience change what the scriptures state:

Acts 5:32----King James Version (KJV)


32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.


Peter obviously believed the Gentiles of Acts 10 were obedient, or his statement would have been empty:


Acts 10:33-35---King James Version (KJV)


33 Immediately therefore I sent to thee; and thou hast well done that thou art come. Now therefore are we all here present before God, to hear all things that are commanded thee of God.

34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:

35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.


And Peter must they would have obeyed his command:



Acts 10:45-48----King James Version (KJV)


45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,

47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.


How does that differ from Paul's command? :


Acts 22:16---King James Version (KJV)


16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

[alanmolstad]

dberrie2000
You are just asking the same question over and over....
A question that both Billy and I have fully answered , each of us a few times.

I suggest you allow the conversation to move on.

[dberrie2000]

dberrie----How does listing the specific obedience change what the scriptures state:

Acts 5:32----King James Version (KJV)


32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.


Peter obviously believed the Gentiles of Acts 10 were obedient, or his statement would have been empty:


Acts 10:33-35---King James Version (KJV)


33 Immediately therefore I sent to thee; and thou hast well done that thou art come. Now therefore are we all here present before God, to hear all things that are commanded thee of God.

34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:

35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.


And Peter must they would have obeyed his command:



Acts 10:45-48----King James Version (KJV)


45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,

47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.


How does that differ from Paul's command? :


Acts 22:16---King James Version (KJV)


16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.


dberrie2000----You are just asking the same question over and over....
A question that both Billy and I have fully answered , each of us a few times.

I suggest you allow the conversation to move on.

Please don't flatter yourself, Alan. A faith alone doctrine can't answer the Biblical verses above. You and Billyray can only attempt to rationalize them away. Any theology that attempts to teach a doctrine there are no acts of obedience to Jesus Christ necessary for His grace unto life will ever have any success with the above scriptures--or with the Bible. The Bible rejects any such notion.

The scriptures have God giving His grace to those who obey Him--regardless of your supposed answers.

As the Bible expressively teaches:


James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)


24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

[Billyray]

How does listing the specific obedience change what the scriptures state:

Are you going to answer my question?

What works did those who received the Holy Spirit (in Acts 10) do prior to receiving the Holy Spirit?

[Billyray]

The scriptures have God giving His grace to those who obey Him--regardless of your supposed answers.

Romans 4:5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness,

What works are required for justification according to Romans 4:5?

[dberrie2000]

Romans 4:5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness,

What works are required for justification according to Romans 4:5?

Since Romans 4 is about Abraham's faith--shall we post his faith?


Genesis 26:4-5---King James Version (KJV)


4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;

5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

[Billyray]

Since Romans 4 is about Abraham's faith--shall we post his faith?

Romans 4 is certainly more than just about Abraham's faith so as usual you are mistaken. Do you think it is possible to actually answer my question?

Romans 4:5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness,

What works are required for justification according to Romans 4:5?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Billyray View Post----Romans 4:5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness,

What works are required for justification according to Romans 4:5?


dberrie----Since Romans 4 is about Abraham's faith--shall we post his faith?


Genesis 26:4-5---King James Version (KJV)


4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;

5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.



Romans 4 is certainly more than just about Abraham's faith so as usual you are mistaken.

Yes--and what I posted proves that. What is it about what James posted in relation to Abraham's faith that you disbelieve?


James 2:20-26---King James Version (KJV)


20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

[alanmolstad]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FT-8_VDMERo


so what we see then in ACTS 2 is not a "order" of how people had to follow to get saved, Rather it's listing of things that "indicate' that you are a saved Christian.

So what we need to do then is put Acts 2 next to the Content of ACTS 10 to understand the p***age correctly.

For at ACTS 10 we find that people were saved and proved conclusive that they were saved and approved by God, yet had not been baptized!

So the religions that teach that you have to be baptized before you can be saved are in error and disagree with the Bible.

[alanmolstad]

so what Im saying is that the Thief was saved just like i was....he had faith in Christ.
This is why the Bible tells us that the ONLY way we can be saved is by Grace though faith.

Now there are some denominations that hold to the idea that it must be via baptism that all men are saved.
The Catholic church teaches this as you may know...

I was once in a debate with a Catholic on the question of his church teachings about the need to be baptized.
This Catholic I was talking to told me over and over that you "had" to be baptized to be saved.....you "had" to be.

However i opened up some of the books I have on Catholicism and I saw something else there that i shared with him.
I found that even the Catholic church has a rule about people that wanted to be baptized but for whatever reason died before they were baptized.

According to the official catholic church, if your heart was right and have faith in Jesus, and you were seeking to be baptized but were unable to be, then God will take this into account and you can be saved.

I pointed out that if Baptism was always 100% needed to be saved, then the catholic church was in error to teach that the heart of the person who cant be baptized is all that matters.

I pointed out that the moment the catholic church admitted that its really only your heart that matters, they have admitted that baptism is just an outward symbol of what has happened inside the person's heart....and this is in agreement with what Protestants teach too!

So in fact, the catholic church also teaches that 'faith" is all that matters.....

[dberrie2000]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FT-8_VDMERoso what we see then in ACTS 2 is not a "order" of how people had to follow to get saved, Rather it's listing of things that "indicate' that you are a saved Christian.

Acts2:38 was a command for all to repent and be baptized for the remission of sins:


Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)


38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

God's grace for our obedience.

[alanmolstad]

once again, as I have pointed out, the Bible teaches that you do not "have" to be baptized to be saved....as it tells the story of people who became believers and yet had not gone near water....

thus the whole foundation of the concept that "baptism is only what saves" is built of a silly way to understand the text...LOL

[dberrie2000]

once again, as I have pointed out, the Bible teaches that you do not "have" to be baptized to be saved....


John 3:5---King James Version (KJV)


5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.


1 Peter 3:21---King James Version (KJV)


21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Even Martin Luther taught that:



"Moreover, that it is most solemnly and strictly commanded that we must be baptized or we cannot be saved..." [emphasis added]

SOURCE: The Large Catechism (XIII) - Martin Luther

[James Banta]

John 3:5---King James Version (KJV)


5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.


1 Peter 3:21---King James Version (KJV)


21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Even Martin Luther taught that:

"Moreover, that it is most solemnly and strictly commanded that we must be baptized or we cannot be saved..." [emphasis added]

SOURCE: The Large Catechism (XIII) - Martin Luther

No where in the context of Jesus teaching Nicodemus in John 3 is baptism even mentioned. It is birth and then only two births. One a natural birth and one a spiritual birth. All people have been born naturally, only the children of God have been born spiritually. Baptism is clearly mentioned in the next context after Jesus and His disciples go to Aenon near to Salim. Surely the Holy Spirit through John was able to use the word baptism if it was called for.. In the text you references it was NOT call for..

Next you used 1 Peter 3:21 here is a better example of the real understanding of the text "The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ".

It is the "good conscience toward God" that makes us clean before God, accepting Jesus as Savior and Lord, not the cleansing of the body in the bath water of baptism..

As for every teaching that comes from a minister, they are as good as any other.. Martin Luther believed in infant baptism believing that saved the child, and that by sprinkling. Do you want to stand by that as a requirement? I had no idea that the LDS had adopted infant baptism as doctrine. This teaches the requirement for baptism like it teaches infant baptism. I reject both. You seem to accept both since you use it as evidence that baptism is required. I will believe what was given us directly from Jesus "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16). He who believes in Him has everlasting Life..An infant is not capable of making a profession of faith. Jesus made that statement again "Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?" (John 11:25-26).. Are only believers resurrected? No, so these word are speaking of eternal life not just mortality. When He said whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die He was specking of eternal life. Both believers and nonbelievers will be resurrected. Never dying requires faith therefore it is more than mere resurrection. IHS jim

[alanmolstad]

well said!

[alanmolstad]

yes....Jesus tells us that what is of the flesh is flesh, but what is of the spirit is spirit...

The flesh is nothing....there is nothing that water can do to make you right with God...thinking so is silly...LOL

But because Jesus was talking about the spirit, therefore we have a better understanding how men are saved...its only by GRACE though FAITH that men are saved!

so all that the Bible teaches, and all that Jesus and his men taught is in full agreement with what we are saying here

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post----John 3:5---King James Version (KJV)


5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.


1 Peter 3:21---King James Version (KJV)


21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:



Even Martin Luther taught that:

"Moreover, that it is most solemnly and strictly commanded that we must be baptized or we cannot be saved..." [emphasis added]

SOURCE: The Large Catechism (XIII) - Martin Luther


No where in the context of Jesus teaching Nicodemus in John 3 is baptism even mentioned. It is birth and then only two births. One a natural birth and one a spiritual birth.

Jesus' "born again" was not two births--it involved only one. The term "born again" excludes even the possibility of the natural birth.


John 3:3---King James Version (KJV)


3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.


The interjection of the natural birth was Nicodemus' misunderstanding.



All people have been born naturally, only the children of God have been born spiritually.

Which means that the natural birth has nothing to do with being "born again".


Next you used 1 Peter 3:21 here is a better example of the real understanding of the text "The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ".

It is the "good conscience toward God" that makes us clean before God, accepting Jesus as Savior and Lord, not the cleansing of the body in the bath water of baptism..

That was Peter's point--water baptism was not a bath--but something that is more involved.


Martin Luther believed in infant baptism believing that saved the child, and that by sprinkling. Do you want to stand by that as a requirement? I had no idea that the LDS had adopted infant baptism as doctrine. This teaches the requirement for baptism like it teaches infant baptism. I reject both.

Regardless of what one accepts or rejects about infant baptism--all the ECF believed that water baptism was essential for salvation. That is one thing they all were united on.

[dberrie2000]

yes....Jesus tells us that what is of the flesh is flesh, but what is of the spirit is spirit...

The flesh is nothing....there is nothing that water can do to make you right with God...thinking so is silly...LOL

I never considered the scriptures as silly:


Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)


38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

[Billyray]

I never considered the scriptures as silly:


Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)


38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
You ignore the scriptures DB. Salvation takes place when we come to Christ by faith and works do not contribute. Those in this verse are justified the moment that they are converted (repentance and faith). If baptism where required for justification then certainly it would be included in the dozens of other verses that speak about justification/salvation, but they don't. Couple this with the fact that the thief was converted on the cross and was saved despite not doing any works. BTW if the Bible taught that we were saved by works in addition to faith I would have no problem with that and I would believe it. But it doesn't.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post----yes....Jesus tells us that what is of the flesh is flesh, but what is of the spirit is spirit...

The flesh is nothing....there is nothing that water can do to make you right with God...thinking so is silly...LOL



Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post---I never considered the scriptures as silly:


Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)


38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.


You ignore the scriptures DB. Salvation takes place when we come to Christ by faith and works do not contribute.

Then you might want to tell it to the authors of the Biblical NT--as they have God's grace going to those who obey Him:


Hebrews 5:9--King James Version (KJV)


9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;



Those in this verse are justified the moment that they are converted (repentance and faith).

That's good faith alone blather--but Acts2:38 has repentance AND water baptism for God's grace--the remission of sins.


If baptism where required for justification then certainly it would be included in the dozens of other verses that speak about justification/salvation, but they don't.

Sure they don't:


Mark 16:16---King James Version (KJV)


16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be ****ed.


BTW if the Bible taught that we were saved by works in addition to faith I would have no problem with that and I would believe it. But it doesn't.

Sure it doesn't:


James 2:20---King James Version (KJV)


20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

[Billyray]

Then you might want to tell it to the authors of the Biblical NT--as they have God's grace going to those who obey Him:
Perhaps if you actually read the Bible you would know that our salvation does not depend on our works but rather by our faith in Christ.

[dberrie2000]

Perhaps if you actually read the Bible you would know that our salvation does not depend on our works but rather by our faith in Christ.

Does the Bible teach that faith without works is dead?

James 2:20 (King James Version)

20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?


Could you tell us if you believe that His grace flows through dead faith?

[Billyray]

Does the Bible teach that faith without works is dead?

Absolutely it teaches that those who without faith do not naturally produce works, which is the point that James was making in James 2.

[Billyray]

Could you tell us if you believe that His grace flows through dead faith?
Dead faith = no faith.

BTW God gives grace in many ways to believers and unbelievers.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post---Could you tell us if you believe that His grace flows through dead faith?


Dead faith = no faith.

Then could you explain for us how the faith alone believe that works has nothing to do with salvation?


James 2:20----King James Version (KJV)


20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?



BTW God gives grace in many ways to believers and unbelievers.

But not His salvational grace:


Acts 5:32---King James Version (KJV)


32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

[Billyray]

Then could you explain for us how the faith alone believe that works has nothing to do with salvation?

They do have something to do with salvation--works naturally follow after salvation. Which is what James is speaking about here.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Billyray View Post----Dead faith = no faith.


dberrie---Then could you explain for us how the faith alone believe that works has nothing to do with salvation?


James 2:20----King James Version (KJV)


20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?


They do have something to do with salvation--works naturally follow after salvation.

That statement is an exclusionary statement. If works did not appear until after the salvation occurred--then works had nothing to do with the inheritance of salvation.

Again--could you explain this anomaly? :


Originally Posted by Billyray View Post----Dead faith = no faith.



James 2:20----King James Version (KJV)


20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

[Billyray]

[/B]


That statement is an exclusionary statement. If works did not appear until after the salvation occurred--then works had nothing to do with the inheritance of salvation.

Again--could you explain this anomaly? :

Works don't contribute for salvation rather they naturally flow from salvation.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Billyray View Post----Dead faith = no faith.



James 2:20----King James Version (KJV)


20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

Correct. Those who have faith will naturally produce works. Those who "claim" to have faith in this section of James do not have faith and thus are not saved that is why they do not naturally do good works.

[alanmolstad]

we are saved by grace though faith,

The thief on the cross received God's grace....and this was shown in his faith as he died.

The thief was saved.....and...he was saved the save way all are saved, no difference in his salvation and in mine.

[theway]

we are saved by grace though faith,

The thief on the cross received God's grace....and this was shown in his faith as he died.

The thief was saved.....and...he was saved the save way all are saved, no difference in his salvation and in mine.What? Where in the scriptures does it say he was saved?

[alanmolstad]

What? Where in the scriptures does it say he was saved?
are you sure you need to ask that question?

They never told you about "Today you will be with me _____..." back in Sunday school?

John 14:3.......and where is that again?

[theway]

are you sure you need to ask that question?

They never told you about "Today you will be with me _____..." back in Sunday school?

John 14:3.......and where is that again?Where is paradise according to your Sunday School.

[alanmolstad]

Where is paradise according to your Sunday School.

john 14:3.........

[alanmolstad]

Where is paradise according to your Sunday School.You are not going to try and tell me you believe its on a planet in a different star system right?......

(I got to thinking about why you would ask this question and then some of the more nutty ideas i have heard on this forum came to mind)

[theway]

You are not going to try and tell me you believe its on a planet in a different star system right?......

(I got to thinking about why you would ask this question and then some of the more nutty ideas i have heard on this forum came to mind)I have no idea where paradise is in that verse, however we know for a fact it wasn't Heaven. Actually, it was in the exact opposite place as Heaven.

This is what happens when you go to the wrong Sunday School....

[alanmolstad]

I have no idea where paradise is in that verse,.

Yes, I get that...

[alanmolstad]

. Actually, it was in the exact opposite place as Heaven.

You are saying that the thief ended up in New Jersey ?

[theway]

You are saying that the thief ended up in New Jersey ?Pretty close;)

Where does the Bible say that Christ went for three days?

[alanmolstad]

Luke 23:42 - Then he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom."

So here we see the words "your Kingdom" and in the next verse we will learn where this "kingdom" is?



Luke 23:43 - Jesus answered him, "Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise."

So in this verse you learn that the "kingdom" is located "with" Jesus in "paradise"




Ok cl***, lets sum that all up - The thief was going to be in the kingdom..... with .....Jesus .....in paradise.

Thus we know where the thief is, and where Jesus was going, and the correct terms to use what dealing with this topic.



Now lets find out more -
John 14:3 "And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.



"I go"...= we already learned that Jesus went with the thief to his kingdom also referred to as paradise.
"a place" =The Kingdom, paradise
"take you" =so we get to go to this very same place that both Jesus and the thief went to
'with me" = this confirms that we will enter into the very same paradise that the thief entered with jesus on the day they both died.
"be where I am" = This is the hope of all Christians, that when Jesus will return and take us to be with him forever in paradise, for that is the only place i wish to spend eternity....Where my Lord is that is where i wish to be forever.

[James Banta]

You are saying that the thief ended up in New Jersey ?

As Christians we know that no one ascended to heaven except that Jesus came down from heaven.. Jesus did go to the place he had called Abraham's bosom where he proclaimed across the great gulf that those being held in hell were there of their own choices. The He (Jesus) took captivity those who were being held captive (Those waiting for Him held there in Paradise prison ) with Him to the presence of the Father..

While hell (the grave) holds those outside Christ it isn't their final estate.. Hell it's self will also be cast into the Lake of Fire.. It is that place prepared for Satan and his angels where all the faithless will be ***igned eternally.. Did not Jesus clear Abrahan's bosom? Please tell me if I am out of step with the Bible? Would Paul have some special dispensation, of is Jesus also ****ed to this place? Paul saith that to Live is Christ to die is gain. That it is better for him to die and be with Jesus, but better for the Church if he stayed in the flesh.. So is Jesus bound in Abraham's bosom or is he with the Father in heaven? If He is with the Father is not Paul with the Father? If Paul is with the Father are not all those looking to God in faith with the Father? IHS jim

[alanmolstad]

Pretty close;)

Where does the Bible say that Christ went for three days? the spirit was dismissed on the cross..

The flesh went into the earth
The spirit went to the father in paradise.

This is also why later Jesus had to have the guys handle him, so that they understood that Jesus was not just a spirit.
The resurrection is a resurrection of the BODY!...........Amen!




This is the example that we will all have in the Christian church about our own resurrections!
One day my dead mortal body will rise up, and go to be with the lord forever in paradise!



For more information I found you this video to look at -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XTFOAaNHacA


I think this video might help you in this study

[theway]

the spirit was dismissed on the cross..

The flesh went into the earth
The spirit went to the father in paradise.

This is also why later Jesus had to have the guys handle him, so that they understood that Jesus was not just a spirit.
The resurrection is a resurrection of the BODY!...........Amen!




This is the example that we will all have in the Christian church about our own resurrections!
One day my dead mortal body will rise up, and go to be with the lord forever in paradise!



For more information I found you this video to look at -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XTFOAaNHacA


I think this video might help you in this studyJames seems to know the answer (maybe that's because despite who he has become, at least he went to the right Sunday School)

Once again....

Where was Christ for the there days after he died?

You can use what you learned in your Sunday School if wish.

Hint... to be with His Father in Heaven (paradise) was the wrong answer, even by your theology.

[James Banta]

James seems to know the answer (maybe that's because despite who he has become, at least he went to the right Sunday School)

Once again....

Where was Christ for the there days after he died?

You can use what you learned in your Sunday School if wish.

Hint... to be with His Father in Heaven (paradise) was the wrong answer, even by your theology.

Jesus wasn't in Abraham's bosom all three days.. Remember the Bible teaches us that He took captivity captive. Since hell had not yet given up her dead the captives held in Abraham's bosom must be the those that Jesus took captive.. Where did he take them? The only place he could take them is to the Father, especially since the p***age tells us that "he ascended up on high" (Eph 4:8).. IHS jim

[alanmolstad]

Jesus wasn't in Abraham's bosom all three days.. Remember the Bible teaches us that He took captivity captive. Since hell had not yet given up her dead the captives held in Abraham's bosom must be the those that Jesus took captive.. Where did he take them? The only place he could take them is to the Father, especially since the p***age tells us that "he ascended up on high" (Eph 4:8).. IHS jim


Once again Jim is correct!....

Back in Bible school I read a book that talked about the term "Abraham's bosom"...and one of the things it was teaching is that in a more modern understanding of this term we would say something like "Abraham's embrace"

The context is that the person who has died has returned to their loving father Abraham's arms and are safe.
The image is that of a father holding his child in his arms.....the child is safe, warm, protected, and never need worry again.

[theway]

Once again Jim is correct!....
No he is wrong once again, three days later and Christ had still to go to his Father in Heaven.

John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Where was He then? Well according to my Sunday School teacher Christ was in Hades (Hell). Paradise had multiple meanings to the Jews, however in this context it clearly meant Abraham's Bosom. Paradise or Abraham's Bosom was a place, it was the good half of Hades. Since all of Hades represented Spiritual death or a separation from God, it was mostly translated as Hell in the scriptures.

par·a·dise [par-uh-dahys, -dahyz]
noun
1. heaven, as the final abode of the righteous.
2. an intermediate place for the departed souls of the righteous awaiting resurrection.
3.( often initial capital letter ) Eden .
4. a place of extreme beauty, delight, or happiness.
5. a state of supreme happiness; bliss.

1 Pet. 3:18-20
3:18 Because Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, to bring you to God, by being put to death in the flesh but by being made alive in the spirit. 19 In it he went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 after they were disobedient long ago when God patiently waited in the days of Noah as an ark was being constructed. In the ark a few, that is eight souls, were delivered through water.





Back in Bible school I read a book that talked about the term "Abraham's bosom"...and one of the things it was teaching is that in a more modern understanding of this term we would say something like "Abraham's embrace"

The context is that the person who has died has returned to their loving father Abraham's arms and are safe.
The image is that of a father holding his child in his arms.....the child is safe, warm, protected, and never need worry again.And in that you would be wrong again...

According to my Sunday School teaching...

Abraham's Bosom
The word kolpos [kovlpo"] literally refers to the side or lap of a person. Figuratively, as in this case, it refers to a place of honor reserved for a special guest, similar to its usage in John 13:23. In the case of Lazarus, the reserved place is special because it is beside Abraham, the father of all the righteous. The phrase may be synonymous to the paradise promised to the thief on the cross ( Luke 23:43 ). Together these p***ages support the conviction that a believer enjoys immediate bliss at the moment of physical death.

[alanmolstad]

in the body......LOL.....Jesus went up to the father in his body after many days of talking to us....

but the spirit of christ was with the lord at his death.

the same will happen to us too.
when i die my body will go into the dirt but my spirit will go to be with the Lord.
then when the lord returns i will rise up from the grave....and then meet the lord in the air so that where jesus is i will also be.


so that is why we think of jesus as being our only example of what our fate will be

[theway]

in the body......LOL.....Jesus went up to the father in his body after many days of talking to us....

but the spirit of christ was with the lord at his death.

the same will happen to us too.
when i die my body will go into the dirt but my spirit will go to be with the Lord.
then when the lord returns i will rise up from the grave....and then meet the lord in the air so that where jesus is i will also be.


so that is why we think of jesus as being our only example of what our fate will beNice attempt to try and save yourself, however you are wrong yet again, the scriptures are clear on this.

Matt 12:40 for just as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the sea monster, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Perhaps it's time you find another Sunday School to attend where they understand the scriptures. Because so far you have been wrong on just about everything

[alanmolstad]

yes.....jesus body was in the tomb.......until the ressurection...just as my body will be in the ground until i rise up....

but at my death my spirit goes to the lord that gave it......

at my return to life i enter heaven with a body that will be just like the body of christ.

so at his death the spirit of jesus went to the father....

[theway]

yes.....jesus body was in the tomb.......until the ressurection...just as my body will be in the ground until i rise up....

but at my death my spirit goes to the lord that gave it......

at my return to life i enter heaven with a body that will be just like the body of christ.

so at his death the spirit of jesus went to the father....No... Wrong again! Did you not see the scripture I posted before? Christ was in Hades preaching to those in prison.

1 Pet. 3:18-20
3:18 Because Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, to bring you to God, by being put to death in the flesh but by being made alive in the spirit. 19 In it he went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 after they were disobedient long ago when God patiently waited in the days of Noah as an ark was being constructed. In the ark a few, that is eight souls, were delivered through water.

And others...

The Apostles' Creed reads:

"I believe in God, the Father almighty,
maker of heaven and earth;
and in Jesus Christ his only Son our Lord;
who was conceived by the Holy Ghost,
born of the Virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, dead and buried.
He descended into hell.
The third day he rose again from the dead.
He ascended into heaven,
and sitteth on the right hand of God the Father almighty.
From thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead....."

[alanmolstad]

Lets look at what Walter Martin says...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XTFOAaNHacA


when we say ,"descended into hell"...we mean the grave.
The phrase makes sure that everyone understands that jesus was "dead"

not almost dead....not asleep....not drunk....

But dead, stone cold dead....

The people that go on and on, teaching based only on the creed that Jesus was in the hell of the ****ed simply are getting off-track with the bible and going after ideas that cant be supported with the text alone.

The thing we know for sure is that on the cross Jesus told the thief where they would be going....."Paradise"
and that where Jesus is (paradise), he will come and take us there too!

This is very easy to understand once you trust the Jesus knew where he was going and just take his word on it.




So they put his body into the grave, and there is was until Sunday morning.

We do not mean that Jesus was burning with the ****ed...LOL

for more information, see - http://www.christianitytoday.com/ch/asktheexpert/nov15.html




So the bible teaches that Jesus died a normal human death on the cross.
they put his dead body in the ground.

The bible teaches us that Jesus said he would be that very day with the thief in "paradise".
As we know that that day his dead body was still in the tomb, this shows us that Jesus was talking about both his and the other man's spirits being in "paradise"

So then on the 3rd day, Jesus was resurrected, his spirit was united with an everlasting body of flesh and bone.....and this is just like what will happen to us in the future too!


When I die my body will go under the ground, and my spirit will go to paradise to be with the lord.

Then at the resurrection i will return to the earth with the lord, and rise up from the grave in an everlasting body of flesh and bone....




thats the facts ...case-closed

[alanmolstad]

so we only have one example of what will one day happen to all Christians.
The death and resurrection of Jesus is our only example and only guide on this issue.

Thus, based on what we know about the resurrection of Christ, I have enough support to have faith that I too will in the same manner be raised from the grave.


I will die a normal human death.
At the moment of my death my spirit will go to be with the Lord in paradise.
At the moment of death they will take my body and put it in the ground.

then, at the return of Christ, I return with him from paradise and rise up in an everlasting body of flesh and bone.

and just as Jesus went up into the air to meet the lord, so too will the church rise up to meet the Lord in the air.

[theway]

Lets look at what Walter Martin says...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XTFOAaNHacALOL.... This explains where you got your unbiblical ideas from. Walter Martin was a joke when it came to biblical knowledge and understanding.



when we say ,"descended into hell"...we mean the grave.
The phrase makes sure that everyone understands that jesus was "dead"

not almost dead....not asleep....not drunk....

But dead, stone cold dead....

The people that go on and on, teaching based only on the creed that Jesus was in the hell of the ****ed simply are getting off-track with the bible and going after ideas that cant be supported with the text alone.

The thing we know for sure is that on the cross Jesus told the thief where they would be going....."Paradise"
and that where Jesus is (paradise), he will come and take us there too!

This is very easy to understand once you trust the Jesus knew where he was going and just take his word on it.




So they put his body into the grave, and there is was until Sunday morning.

We do not mean that Jesus was burning with the ****ed...LOL

for more information, see - http://www.christianitytoday.com/ch/asktheexpert/nov15.html




So the bible teaches that Jesus died a normal human death on the cross.
they put his dead body in the ground.

The bible teaches us that Jesus said he would be that very day with the thief in "paradise".
As we know that that day his dead body was still in the tomb, this shows us that Jesus was talking about both his and the other man's spirits being in "paradise"

So then on the 3rd day, Jesus was resurrected, his spirit was united with an everlasting body of flesh and bone.....and this is just like what will happen to us in the future too!


When I die my body will go under the ground, and my spirit will go to paradise to be with the lord.

Then at the resurrection i will return to the earth with the lord, and rise up from the grave in an everlasting body of flesh and bone....




thats the facts ...case-closedSorry but as I pointed out before Paradise in that verse meant a section of Hades or Hell.
THIS IS NOT A UNIQUELY MORMON BELIEF... If that makes you feel any better about it?

Before you think you are going to school me on the Bible, do a little research first on;

The Harrowing of Hell
Abraham's Bosom
Purgatory
The meanings of Paradise.
Sheol, Hades, and Gehenna

[alanmolstad]

Hell.....in the case of the creed is talking about the grave, its used to make sure the person does not think that Jesus was just asleep.

Abraham's Bosom....is best translated in the more modern understanding of "Abraham's hug.....his embrace .

purgatory....is an invented idea that was dreamed up because the answer "The bible does not say" was not good enough for some people.

Paradise............ is where Jesus is, and where we go to be with him.

Sheol, Hades, and Gehenna ...........are terms used in different ways in different context and can be talking about different topics depending on the context.

[alanmolstad]

and...Walter Martin was a great man....

[theway]

Hell.....in the case of the creed is talking about the grave, its used to make sure the person does not think that Jesus was just asleep.

Abraham's Bosom....is best translated in the more modern understanding of "Abraham's hug.....his embrace .

purgatory....is an invented idea that was dreamed up because the answer "The bible does not say" was not good enough for some people.

Paradise............ is where Jesus is, and where we go to be with him.

Sheol, Hades, and Gehenna ...........are terms used in different ways in different context and can be talking about different topics depending on the context.
LOL.... As always, Evangelicals like to reinvent the Bible and doctrine to fit their heretical ideas. However even the Father of Evangelicalism disagree with you.

John Calvin
"Christ's descent into Hell was necessary for Christians' atonement, because Christ did in fact endure the penalty for the sins of the redeemed."

You stated your case perfectly "modern understanding says..."
You seem to like to dismiss how it was actually understood when it original written.

[theway]

and...Walter Martin was a great man....
As participation on his website shows.

[alanmolstad]

John Calvin
"Christ's descent into Hell was necessary for Christians' atonement, because Christ did in fact endure the penalty for the sins of the redeemed."

.

http://www.christianitytoday.com/ch/asktheexpert/nov15.html

"Centuries later, Thomas Aquinas resolved Augustine's problem by saying Christ descended to two places—hell and purgatory—and that his purpose in each was different. In hell, he put unbelievers to shame, while in purgatory, he gave sinners hope for glory and the righteous deliverance. But this explanation did not satisfy all. Martin Luther, though he believed Christ descended to hell, would offer no clear cut explanation for the event. John Calvin went so far as to describe the descent as symbolic, pointing to Christ's suffering at Gethsemane and the cross."

[alanmolstad]

As participation on his website shows.

This site is very much a good tribute to a great man of God.
We do bring to mind the work of Walter when we come here....the work that Martin started goes forth in many ways and in many things as we see here too on this site that allows people to find answers for the hope that is within me..

[alanmolstad]

and this is the hope that is within me:
That I will die a human death as my lord also died.
And like the lord my body will go under the ground, and my spirit will go to paradise to be with the lord.

and one day my spirit will rise up in an everlasting body of flesh and bone, and i will rise off the earth and meet the lord in the air.

[alanmolstad]

So this means that what happened to the thief was not anything different at all than what will happen one day to myself and to all other Christians.

We all die as the thief does.
The lord sends his angels and they take our spirit to be with the Lord in paradise.
The people still alive take our dead body and put it under the ground.

Then one day, I will return with the lord and rise up in my new body.



Thats how it goes, that is the Good News we Christians bring to the world.
That is the hope that is within me.

[James Banta]

As participation on his website shows.

Quick warning... Be very careful of voicing a negative opinion Of Dr Martin. We are all here by the invitation of his daughter. She has asked us to show respect for his memory.. If you can't do that keep your negative comment about him to yourself.. IHS jim

[James Banta]

No he is wrong once again, three days later and Christ had still to go to his Father in Heaven.

John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Where was He then? Well according to my Sunday School teacher Christ was in Hades (Hell). Paradise had multiple meanings to the Jews, however in this context it clearly meant Abraham's Bosom. Paradise or Abraham's Bosom was a place, it was the good half of Hades. Since all of Hades represented Spiritual death or a separation from God, it was mostly translated as Hell in the scriptures.

par·a·dise [par-uh-dahys, -dahyz]
noun
1. heaven, as the final abode of the righteous.
2. an intermediate place for the departed souls of the righteous awaiting resurrection.
3.( often initial capital letter ) Eden .
4. a place of extreme beauty, delight, or happiness.
5. a state of supreme happiness; bliss.

1 Pet. 3:18-20
3:18 Because Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, to bring you to God, by being put to death in the flesh but by being made alive in the spirit. 19 In it he went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 after they were disobedient long ago when God patiently waited in the days of Noah as an ark was being constructed. In the ark a few, that is eight souls, were delivered through water.



And in that you would be wrong again...

According to my Sunday School teaching...

Abraham's Bosom
The word kolpos [kovlpo"] literally refers to the side or lap of a person. Figuratively, as in this case, it refers to a place of honor reserved for a special guest, similar to its usage in John 13:23. In the case of Lazarus, the reserved place is special because it is beside Abraham, the father of all the righteous. The phrase may be synonymous to the paradise promised to the thief on the cross ( Luke 23:43 ). Together these p***ages support the conviction that a believer enjoys immediate bliss at the moment of physical death.

I never said Jesus stayed in prison for the full 3 days.. His body remained in in the grave for that whole time! His spirit went to Abraham's Bosom and there took captivity (Those that were there comforted in that waiting place) captive to Heaven (Paradise, the presence of God ) to await the day of the resurrection.. Because of the cross No One Goes to Anyplace But To God. Paul was clear on that point:

Philippians 1:23
For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better

Such a result for Paul wasn't restricted just to him, it is the condition of all believers.. All people are either cast into prison to await trial before the Great White Throne, or they enter the rest of God as His children.. I don't discount any verse you have quoted. Jesus hadn't presented Himself in His resurrection body as He asked Mary not to touch Him. He had just come forth from the grave.. Jesus did proclaim the justice of God toward those held in prison. And he did bring the spirits of the righteous into God's presence.

Paradise is totally different than the place Jesus called Abraham's Bosom.. Paradise is where God is.. It is heaven.. The first of your definitions you quotes is correct in this matter it is heaven, the final abode of the righteous. That agrees with Paul description but disagrees with Joseph Smith.. Paul who had but the actual experience os seeing the Lord but the evidence of blindness and a changed life to back it up.. Smith had neither of those.. Not a single personal evidence of the encounter and not the changed life.. He was a liar before his "Vision" and continued after. It actually went back into his fraudulent practice of gl*** looking for buried treasure.. He was found guilty of gl*** looking and paid a fine for the fraud.. His sin didn't diminish but grew as he aged. He started the practice of adultery convincing married women that they had to become his wives..

I believe Paul, I have ZERO faith in Smith.. Smith lied and taught other to follow his teaching on marriage, on idolatry. He taught that God was three, not one.. He taught Idolatry.. IHS jim

[alanmolstad]

We are all here by the invitation of his daughter.
there are some people that just don't seem to have manners I guess....

[theway]

Quick warning... Be very careful of voicing a negative opinion Of Dr Martin. We are all here by the invitation of his daughter. She has asked us to show respect for his memory.. If you can't do that keep your negative comment about him to yourself.. IHS jim
I only speak the truth, and I'll accept the consequences for it.

However, this forum needs me more than i need... or even care about it.

[alanmolstad]

I only speak the truth, and I'll accept the consequences for it.

However, this forum needs me more than i need... or even care about it.

(Jim help me out here with this one thing I remember...)

It seems to me that about....2 years ago?...that a bunch of Mormon posters were all getting in Jim's face about how it was "they" who kept this forum going not us Christians.

And then all the Mormons pulled out and I'm told that they would only come here and lurk without logging-on.

They must have felt that this forum needed them more than they needed to be here.
They were very open with their views that once they left this forum would shut down.



Well guess what?.........the Walter Martin forum is still here.



and patting yourself on the back for "telling" the truth wont cut you any slack for showing bad manners.

I do not allow people to call Fig a "joke"

[theway]

I never said Jesus stayed in prison for the full 3 days.. His body remained in in the grave for that whole time! His spirit went to Abraham's Bosom and there took captivity (Those that were there comforted in that waiting place) captive to Heaven (Paradise, the presence of God ) to await the day of the resurrection.. Because of the cross No One Goes to Anyplace But To God. Paul was clear on that point:

Philippians 1:23
For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better

Such a result for Paul wasn't restricted just to him, it is the condition of all believers.. All people are either cast into prison to await trial before the Great White Throne, or they enter the rest of God as His children.. I don't discount any verse you have quoted. Jesus hadn't presented Himself in His resurrection body as He asked Mary not to touch Him. He had just come forth from the grave.. Jesus did proclaim the justice of God toward those held in prison. And he did bring the spirits of the righteous into God's presence.

Paradise is totally different than the place Jesus called Abraham's Bosom.. Paradise is where God is.. It is heaven.. The first of your definitions you quotes is correct in this matter it is heaven, the final abode of the righteous. That agrees with Paul description but disagrees with Joseph Smith.. Paul who had but the actual experience os seeing the Lord but the evidence of blindness and a changed life to back it up.. Smith had neither of those.. Not a single personal evidence of the encounter and not the changed life.. He was a liar before his "Vision" and continued after. It actually went back into his fraudulent practice of gl*** looking for buried treasure.. He was found guilty of gl*** looking and paid a fine for the fraud.. His sin didn't diminish but grew as he aged. He started the practice of adultery convincing married women that they had to become his wives..

I believe Paul, I have ZERO faith in Smith.. Smith lied and taught other to follow his teaching on marriage, on idolatry. He taught that God was three, not one.. He taught Idolatry.. IHS jimLOL... Once again the Banta formulaic rant.

1. Post useless pla***ude
2. Post an unrelated or misapplied scripture
3. End with; Joseph Smith was a bad man!

Honestly... I stopped reading them a long time ago.

[RealFakeHair]

LOL... Once again the Banta formulaic rant.

1. Post useless pla***ude
2. Post an unrelated or misapplied scripture
3. End with; Joseph Smith was a bad man!

Honestly... I stopped reading them a long time ago.

Thanks for admitting Joseph Smith jr. Was indeed a bad man!

[James Banta]

[theway;153565]LOL... Once again the Banta formulaic rant.

1. Post useless pla***ude
2. Post an unrelated or misapplied scripture
3. End with; Joseph Smith was a bad man!

Honestly... I stopped reading them a long time ago.

Really? What part was a pla***ude? Oh yes anything I say is a pla***ude.. NONSENSE! How was showing that Paul expected to be with Jesus as His life ended? Not in some waiting hall. But with Jesus where He is.. And where is Jesus now? He is at the right hand of God (Romans 8:34). If Paul, and for that matter all believers are with Jesus as they leave mortality they will be with Him at the right hand of God..

Was Smith a bad man? YES.. He changes the Bible adding to the very writings that God through Moses commanded should never be changed (Deut 12:32). Was Smith a Bad man? YES according to God the use of divination is against His Law (Deut 18:10-11) but yet that is just how he said the BofM was written.. Was Smith a bad man? YES, according to the Holy Spirit through Paul, a leader of the church was to be the husband of ONE wife (1 Tim 3:2). What did Smith say about that (See D&C 132)..

I saw where NE called you NOT the way.. By calling the truth of the Bible unrelated or misapplied to the subject without showing one word of evidence that it was unrelated is mere gossip. Seems everyone else here sees the relation of the p***ages I have used other than you.. Maybe that fact that you never read my posts is the reason you fail to see the significance of the verses I use..

If you don't read my post stop answering them. Adding nonsense that has nothing to do with the thread of conversation makes you sound like you have no idea what is going on around you.. IHS jim

[alanmolstad]

Hint... to be with His Father in Heaven (paradise) was the wrong answer, even by your theology.


HINT - When any of us die, even Jesus, our dead body goes into the ground, but our spirit goes to be with the father...
This is why the Thief on the cross was able to be with Jesus in Paradise that very same day he died.

Then when we rise up out of the grave in a new everlasting body, we rise up off the earth and meet the Lord in the air, just as Jesus did.

This is why Jesus told Mary that he had not yet left to be with the Father, as he had not at that time ascended and did not ascend for another 40 some days.
For he had only been in his body for a few hours at that point.

But he had been in heaven in spirit with the thief before the resurrection.

So what this means is that if we use the resurrection of Christ as our guide, then it works out that when we die we go to heaven as a spirit.
The angels come for us and carry us there so that we are always protected and no one gets lost.
then when we return with the Lord we rise up out of the grave in a new type of body and then lift up off the earth to meet the lord in the air just as Jesus did.

[theway]

HINT - When any of us die, even Jesus, our dead body goes into the ground, but our spirit goes to be with the father...
This is why the Thief on the cross was able to be with Jesus in Paradise that very same day he died.

Then when we rise up out of the grave in a new everlasting body, we rise up off the earth and meet the Lord in the air, just as Jesus did.

This is why Jesus told Mary that he had not yet left to be with the Father, as he had not at that time ascended and did not ascend for another 40 some days.
For he had only been in his body for a few hours at that point.

But he had been in heaven in spirit with the thief before the resurrection.

So what this means is that if we use the resurrection of Christ as our guide, then it works out that when we die we go to heaven as a spirit.
The angels come for us and carry us there so that we are always protected and no one gets lost.
then when we return with the Lord we rise up out of the grave in a new type of body and then lift up off the earth to meet the lord in the air just as Jesus did.Simply repeating your error does not make it true.... The doctrine YOU CREATED based on your false interpretation of scripture does not impress me any.

[James Banta]

Simply repeating your error does not make it true.... The doctrine YOU CREATED based on your false interpretation of scripture does not impress me any.

You need to EXPLAIN where the errors are in Alan's remarks..

Paul said that unless our bodies die it can't be quickened. That which we place in the ground isn't what comes from the ground. Ours natural body is sown in corruption; the believer is raised in incorruption. It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory, it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. It is sown a natural body, it will be raised a spiritual body.

Paul had full confidence that being absent from the body means that a believer is present with the Lord.. Is Jesus bound in some waiting place? Waiting for the resurrection? Waiting for judgement? No? Then how can we be held in such a place if we, at the time of our deaths, are present with the Lord?

Should we abandon the scripture and believe you or Smith or some other man that claims authority even as they deny the truths given to us in the Bible, GOD'S WORD? The error here is not Alan's but yours, and by default the errors of mormonism, the errors of the unlearned man Joseph Smith.. A man that because of his ignorance couldn't read the sealed book any more than the learned man could.. He just had a different excuse..

Those in mormonism that have leaned to read have sealed the word of God off from themselves believing instead the words of a man. They can't read the messages God have given to us because they are sealed to their eyes and their minds by their own pride.. You won't be believe until the day when God condemns you to the Lake of Fire. Then the truth of His word will fill you and bring more pain to your soul than all the fires that your eternal flesh will suffer in it's mists of the Lake of Fire.. IHS jim

[alanmolstad]

To be absent from the Body is to be at home with the Lord.

When does this happen to me?......the answer is that Im in my body right now, and after the resurrection Im in my body then, but for the short time between my death and my resurrection I will be away from my body.

So this means that at the moment I die the Lord will send angels to take me to him.
I will be away from the Body,but I will be at home with the Lord during this time.

Then I will come with Christ and rise up out of the grave in a everlasting body.

This fits with what Jesus told the thief on the cross, that that very day he would be with him in Paradise.
I will die, I will be "away from the body" but I will be "at home with the Lord!"

[James Banta]

To be absent from the Body is to be at home with the Lord.

When does this happen to me?......the answer is that Im in my body right now, and after the resurrection Im in my body then, but for the short time between my death and my resurrection I will be away from my body.

So this means that at the moment I die the Lord will send angels to take me to him.
I will be away from the Body,but I will be at home with the Lord during this time.

Then I will come with Christ and rise up out of the grave in a everlasting body.

This fits with what Jesus told the thief on the cross, that that very day he would be with him in Paradise.
I will die, I will be "away from the body" but I will be "at home with the Lord!"

It is clear that Paul was specking to physical death here.. For the lost, the spiritual death that entered the world of men at the fall of man never ends. They p*** from this death into the next.. IHS jim

[alanmolstad]

Another thing we can learn from looking at the thief on the cross is that the door to salvation is always open.
No works are necessary, you just have to place your hope and faith in the lord, and you have already p***ed from death to life.

[RealFakeHair]

Another thing we can learn from looking at the thief on the cross is that the door to salvation is always open.
No works are necessary, you just have to place your hope and faith in the lord, and you have already p***ed from death to life.
Well, not exactly it was his bad works that got him there in the first place!

[alanmolstad]

Well, not exactly it was his bad works that got him there in the first place!

His Works got him nailed to a cross,

His Faith got him with the Lord in Paradise.

[RealFakeHair]

Works got him nailed to a cross,,,,Faith got him with the Lord in Paradise.

Nail on the head, yes, and it is LDSinc. Works that get ever TBM nailed to the gates of Hell, along with faith in Joseph Smith jr. Imaginary mind.

[alanmolstad]

When any of us die, even Jesus, our dead body goes into the ground, but our spirit goes to be with the father...
This is why the Thief on the cross was able to be with Jesus in Paradise that very same day he died.

Then when we rise up out of the grave in a new everlasting body, we rise up off the earth and meet the Lord in the air, just as Jesus did.

This is why Jesus told Mary that he had not yet left to be with the Father, as he had not at that time ascended and did not ascend for another 40 some days.
For he had only been in his body for a few hours at that point.

But he had been in heaven in spirit with the thief before the resurrection.

So what this means is that if we use the resurrection of Christ as our guide, then it works out that when we die we go to heaven as a spirit.
The angels come for us and carry us there so that we are always protected and no one gets lost.
then when we return with the Lord we rise up out of the grave in a new type of body and then lift up off the earth to meet the lord in the air just as Jesus did.

[dberrie2000]

When any of us die, even Jesus, our dead body goes into the ground, but our spirit goes to be with the father...
This is why the Thief on the cross was able to be with Jesus in Paradise that very same day he died.

Then when we rise up out of the grave in a new everlasting body, we rise up off the earth and meet the Lord in the air, just as Jesus did.

This is why Jesus told Mary that he had not yet left to be with the Father, as he had not at that time ascended and did not ascend for another 40 some days.
For he had only been in his body for a few hours at that point.

But he had been in heaven in spirit with the thief before the resurrection.

Could you explain how Jesus had not yet been to the Father when He met Mary---and yet--had been in heaven with the thief prior to that point?

[alanmolstad]

yes....when we die, our body goes into the grave, and our spirit goes to be with the Lord who gave it.

At the resurrection we rise up out of the grave, and then go up to meet the Lord in the air.


Thus, what did happen to Jesus willalso happen to me personally too!.....and all Christians.

So that is what the Bible is talking about, and is the only guide we have to how our own Resurrection will happen step-by-step.


>>>>>>>So therefore Jesus died.
His spirit was committed into the hands of the father, (as will be mine at my death also)
The dead body of Christ went into the grave. (as will mine also at my death)
At the moment of the resurrection of Christ, the dead body of Christ was changed in it's "nature".....(it went from being mortal and degenerating to everlasting)
Jesus was seen in the flesh,the same flesh that had hung on the cross by Mary and many believers before he had ascended in his body into the air to meet the Lord.(as I will be seen also before I rise up to meet the Lord in the air)

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
When any of us die, even Jesus, our dead body goes into the ground, but our spirit goes to be with the father...
This is why the Thief on the cross was able to be with Jesus in Paradise that very same day he died.

Then when we rise up out of the grave in a new everlasting body, we rise up off the earth and meet the Lord in the air, just as Jesus did.

This is why Jesus told Mary that he had not yet left to be with the Father, as he had not at that time ascended and did not ascend for another 40 some days.
For he had only been in his body for a few hours at that point.

But he had been in heaven in spirit with the thief before the resurrection.


dberrie---Could you explain how Jesus had not yet been to the Father when He met Mary---and yet--had been in heaven with the thief prior to that point?


yes....when we die, our body goes into the grave, and our spirit goes to be with the Lord who gave it.

At the resurrection we rise up out of the grave, and then go up to meet the Lord in the air.

Such as these?

Matthew 27:52-53---King James Version (KJV)
52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.


Thus, what did happen to Jesus willalso happen to me personally too!.....and all Christians.

How does that explain how Jesus was in heaven with the thief--and yet, after His resurrectio--He had yet to ascend to His Father and God?


So that is what the Bible is talking about, and is the only guide we have to how our own Resurrection will happen step-by-step.

>>>>>>>So therefore Jesus died.
His spirit was committed into the hands of the father, (as will be mine at my death also)
The dead body of Christ went into the grave. (as will mine also at my death)
At the moment of the resurrection of Christ, the dead body of Christ was changed in it's "nature".....(it went from being mortal and degenerating to everlasting)

Where do we find it in the scriptures that the dead body of Christ was changed in nature? What is your evidence it was the same body? Is your claim that all the bodies we have in caskets will no longer be there after the resurrection?


Jesus was seen in the flesh,the same flesh that had hung on the cross

What is your evidence it was the same body? What about all those whose body was eaten by sharks and marine life--that no longer exist? Will they not be able to resurrect?

[alanmolstad]

HINT - When any of us die, even Jesus, our dead body goes into the ground, but our spirit goes to be with the father...
This is why the Thief on the cross was able to be with Jesus in Paradise that very same day he died.

Then when we rise up out of the grave in a new everlasting body, we rise up off the earth and meet the Lord in the air, just as Jesus did.

This is why Jesus told Mary that he had not yet left to be with the Father, as he had not at that time ascended and did not ascend for another 40 some days.
For he had only been in his body for a few hours at that point.

But he had been in heaven in spirit with the thief before the resurrection.

So what this means is that if we use the resurrection of Christ as our guide, then it works out that when we die we go to heaven as a spirit.
The angels come for us and carry us there so that we are always protected and no one gets lost.
then when we return with the Lord we rise up out of the grave in a new type of body and then lift up off the earth to meet the lord in the air just as Jesus did.
.......This is a better way that I try to talk about it that I posted a while ago....

[alanmolstad]

Such as these?

Matthew 27:52-53---King James Version (KJV)
52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.



How does that explain how Jesus was in heaven with the thief--and yet, after His resurrectio--He had yet to ascend to His Father and God?



Where do we find it in the scriptures that the dead body of Christ was changed in nature? What is your evidence it was the same body? Is your claim that all the bodies we have in caskets will no longer be there after the resurrection?



What is your evidence it was the same body? What about all those whose body was eaten by sharks and marine life--that no longer exist? Will they not be able to resurrect?
Yes, the term "resurrection" is talking about the physical body that we have.
after his resurrection Jesus was seen by 100s of people....then about 40 days later I think it was when he went up to meet the Lord in the air.


So it goes like this-
When I die my dead body will go into the grave and my spirit goes to the Lord .
Then at the time of the resurrection, the Lord will bringf me with his whole church and we will all rise up out of the grave in the resurrection.
At that moment I will be in a new everlasting body of flesh and bone.

In this new body I will rise up and go to be with the Lord forever....


This is what happened to Jesus and he is our only guide as tohow this will all work out.
So it gives me a great faith that because I have seen God raise Jesus from the grave he will in the very same manner raise me from the grave too!


That is the hope I bring to the people that are willing to hear and listen.

[alanmolstad]

?


What about all those whose body was eaten by sharks and marine life--that no longer exist? Will they not be able to resurrect?Tom doubted that it was the same body too.......LOL

[dberrie2000]

.Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
HINT - When any of us die, even Jesus, our dead body goes into the ground, but our spirit goes to be with the father...
This is why the Thief on the cross was able to be with Jesus in Paradise that very same day he died.

Then when we rise up out of the grave in a new everlasting body, we rise up off the earth and meet the Lord in the air, just as Jesus did.

This is why Jesus told Mary that he had not yet left to be with the Father, as he had not at that time ascended and did not ascend for another 40 some days.

Again--how does one claim Jesus had not yet ascended to His God and Father when He met Mary in the Garden--after His resurrection--and you claim that Christ ascended with the thief to heaven the day after His death--IE--before His resurrection?

That dog just ain't gonna hunt, IMO.

[dberrie2000]

Tom doubted that it was the same body too.......LOL

Tom???? Are you referring to Thomas?

[alanmolstad]

What about all those whose body was eaten by sharks and marine life--that no longer exist? Will they not be able to resurrect?does not matter in even the slightest way!!!!!

Think about all the zillions and zillions of people that are dust.....
The body of man goes into the ground, for it was of the earth and simply returns to where it came forth from in the beginning.
My flesh will rot.....will become part of the world of nature...for it was dust in the beginning and it returns to dust ****ing in the wind in the end.

But God will remember me.....and I will rise up out of the grave....and of they who were eaten by fish we will see them also rise up out of the sea too!

For the sea will give up its dead too, so you don't have to worry that your flesh is burned, or is lost to animals, or is just dust ****ing away to nothing left.
We don't have to worry because God remembers us......for it was God who created us out of dust in the first place!!!!!!!!

[alanmolstad]

Again--how does one claim Jesus had not yet ascended to His God and Father when He met Mary in the Garden--after His resurrection--and you claim that Christ ascended with the thief to heaven the day after His death--IE--before His resurrection?

That dog just ain't gonna hunt, IMO.

Yes, Jesus did not "ascend in the flesh until after the resurrection.



So it goes like this...



When I die my body will go into the grave.
But my spirit goes to be with the Lord...


Then at the "resurrection" I am reunited with my body that is now changed in it's nature.
And I rise up off the earth to meet the Lord in the air!

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post Again--how does one claim Jesus had not yet ascended to His God and Father when He met Mary in the Garden--after His resurrection--and you claim that Christ ascended with the thief to heaven the day after His death--IE--before His resurrection?

That dog just ain't gonna hunt, IMO.


Yes, Jesus did not "ascend in the flesh until after the resurrection.

If Christ's testimony can be trusted--Christ stated He had not yet ascended to His Father--period:


John 20:17---King James Version (KJV)
17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

That was following His resurrection. How could Jesus have been in heaven with the thief the day after His death--and claim He had not yet been to His Father after His resurrection???

The only record we have that specifically relates where Christ was after His death, is this one:


1 Peter 3:18-19---King James Version (KJV)
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

[alanmolstad]

In Bible school I got to actuary stand up and do a little talk on the words that Jesus said to mary after the resurrection.

If I remember what I taught on, I had done some research into the words used, and then on my own tried to put them into a more modern context for the cl***.

i think I ended up saying that when we remember that mary was so upset at the death and now missing body of Christ, that when she saw that Jesus was back to life she pounced on him!,,,,

The words Jesus said was that he wanted Mary to stop "clinging to him"...the context is that Mary was hugging him tightly as to never, ever let him go.

To this Jesus tells her to relax as he has not left yet, but that he had stuff for her to go and do right now.

I think Jesus was just trying to get Mary to let go of him long enough for him to tell her he had a mission for her now to run and go do.

[alanmolstad]

let me know if you have any more questions on the topic...

I very much enjoy the chance to write on topics like this, as the Lord allows me to do so.

[dberrie2000]

If Christ's testimony can be trusted--Christ stated He had not yet ascended to His Father--period:

John 20:17---King James Version (KJV)
17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

That was following His resurrection. How could Jesus have been in heaven with the thief the day after His death--and claim He had not yet been to His Father after His resurrection???

The only record we have that specifically relates where Christ was after His death, is this one:

1 Peter 3:18-19---King James Version (KJV)
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;


In Bible school I got to actuary stand up and do a little talk on the words that Jesus said to mary after the resurrection.

If I remember what I taught on, I had done some research into the words used, and then on my own tried to put them into a more modern context for the cl***.

i think I ended up saying that when we remember that mary was so upset at the death and now missing body of Christ, that when she saw that Jesus was back to life she pounced on him!,,,,

The words Jesus said was that he wanted Mary to stop "clinging to him"...the context is that Mary was hugging him tightly as to never, ever let him go.

To this Jesus tells her to relax as he has not left yet, but that he had stuff for her to go and do right now.

I think Jesus was just trying to get Mary to let go of him long enough for him to tell her he had a mission for her now to run and go do.

And how does all this validate your claim that Jesus was with the thief in heaven the day of His death--and yet--Jesus claims He had yet ascended to His God and Father after His resurrection?

John 20:17---King James Version (KJV)
17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

[alanmolstad]

"ascend" means to go "up"........well it more or less means that..LOL

I will "ascend" to heaven only when Im in a body...for a body is a "physical" thing,,,its real....with a body I can experience up and down, over and under.

This is why Jesus needed a body in order to "ascend".....no body no ascending, for you cant have any ascending or descending unless you have a body.
He who went "up" to heaven could not do so unless he came "down" from heaven, and that means you got to have a body!!!!!


Its our flesh that gives us a "position" that can later go "up",,,or in the Bible's term to "ascend".



But when i die I go to be with the Lord instantly.
But its not in a body.......Im not "ascending"...for without a body I do not have up or down...no left of me,,,nothing to the right of me...



Understand?

[alanmolstad]

So when I die, my body goes into the ground, but my spirit goes to be with the Lord.


Then at the resurrection I come with the Lord and rise up out of the grave in a new everlasting body of flesh and bone.
This new body gives me the ability to now "ascend" to be with the Lord physically forever and ever....

[dberrie2000]

"ascend" means to go "up"........well it more or less means that..LOL

I will "ascend" to heaven only when Im in a body...for a body is a "physical" thing,,,its real....with a body I can experience up and down, over and under.

This is why Jesus needed a body in order to "ascend".....no body no ascending,

So--you don't believe this is true?


Ecclesiastes 12:7---King James Version (KJV)

7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

[TrueBlue?]

in the body......LOL.....Jesus went up to the father in his body after many days of talking to us....

but the spirit of christ was with the lord at his death.

the same will happen to us too.
when i die my body will go into the dirt but my spirit will go to be with the Lord.
then when the lord returns i will rise up from the grave....and then meet the lord in the air so that where jesus is i will also be.


so that is why we think of jesus as being our only example of what our fate will be

"but the spirit of christ was with the lord at his death."

Do you realize what you are admitting to in that statement? That there is a God, the Lord you speak of in Heaven, then you admit that Christ has a spirit all his own, separate and distinct being from the Father. Two beings. Two spirits, one in Heaven, and one on earth. Then you admit that same spirit separate of the Father came back to earth to inhabit it's body once again. So that when Christ presented Himself to the Apostles saying a spirit hath not flesh and bones, we know that Christ, the individual spirit, a being all its own, inhabited that body while the Father, a being unto Himself was in heaven.

[alanmolstad]

"but the spirit of christ was with the lord at his death."

Do you realize what you are admitting to in that statement? That there is a God, the Lord you speak of in Heaven, then you admit that Christ has a spirit all his own, separate and distinct being from the Father. Two beings. Two spirits, one in Heaven, and one on earth. Then you admit that same spirit separate of the Father came back to earth to inhabit it's body once again. So that when Christ presented Himself to the Apostles saying a spirit hath not flesh and bones, we know that Christ, the individual spirit, a being all its own, inhabited that body while the Father, a being unto Himself was in heaven.yes..

whats the problem?

[alanmolstad]

Jesus is fully human....he is the 2nd person of the Trinity.

as a fully human, the resurrection of Jesus has to be the resurrection of a normal human in all ways, or else I cant trust that the Lord that raised Jesus can raise me.

Jesus is our proof that we normal humans can be raised from the dead.

If Jesus was not a normal human, then his Resurrection was a different type and not a normal human resurrection, and thus a moot point and proves nothing.


and we know Jesus has a normal human life, for this is why Jesus tells the Father, "In to your hands I commit MY SPIRIT"....


not "our spirit"


No, he says that into the father's hands he commits "my spirit"

[alanmolstad]

So to review.

Jesus is both fully human and fully God Almighty.

as a human with a normal human nature, Jesus is flesh and bone...he can be seen,,,felt...heard.

As God Jesus is pure spirit, and thus invisible and completely beyond our ability to understand.
This is why Jesus is the image of the invisible God...for the Word BECAME flesh!

The Word became something that it was not beforehand...

The Father did not become flesh
The Holy Spirit did not become flesh.

Only the Word became flesh and lived with us as a normal human.

The Word became flesh, but never stopped being fully God Almighty,,,and as God almighty the Word was and is always spirit, and invisible.

Thisis why the Word had to "become"flesh

[alanmolstad]

I will now go over what I had written in more detail and add any new comments that might draw-out in a more clear maner what it is Im teaching.

in the body.....this part of my post I believe was in responce to the suggestion that Christ had not entered into heaven at his death.
Wht Im saying here is that -in agreement with the Scripture that teaches that to be absent from the body is to be at home with the Lord, that Christ at the very moment of his death was with the lord....yet his body was still on the cross and then in the tomb.

Then after the resurrection Christ 'arove" and ebtered into the kingdom of heaven in a body of flesh and bone.
This is what the Bible teaches will also happen to us too.

When we die our body goes into the dirt and our spirit goes to be at home with the Lord.
Then in the resurrection we will return with the Lord and rise up out of the grave in a body of flesh and bone.

......LOL.....Jesus went up to the father in his body after many days of talking to us....

but the spirit of Christ was with the lord at his death.
.....here I am talking about the fact that Christ died on the cross after he sent his spirit to the father.
His dead body still hung on the cross, but his spirit was with the Lord at his death.


the same will happen to us too....As I have said before, Christ is the example of what our own resurrection will be like.
His is our only guide.


when i die my body will go into the dirt but my spirit will go to be with the Lord.
then when the lord returns i will rise up from the grave....and then meet the lord in the air so that where jesus is i will also be....this is the teaching of the Bible and always has been.


so that is why we think of jesus as being our only example of what our fate will be...No new teaching that anyone might dream up or claim to have received can disagree with what we have already been given in our example with the resurrection of Christ.

[alanmolstad]

Do you realize what you are admitting to in that statement?.....

Im only admitting what I have said and what i have gone over in detail talking about and discussing.

If there is any doubt over what i have said, or if you would like to have me talk about anything I have posted,just ask....

I will be happy to look at what you have a concern about.

[TrueBlue?]

I will now go over what I had written in more detail and add any new comments that might draw-out in a more clear maner what it is Im teaching.

in the body.....this part of my post I believe was in responce to the suggestion that Christ had not entered into heaven at his death.
Wht Im saying here is that -in agreement with the Scripture that teaches that to be absent from the body is to be at home with the Lord, that Christ at the very moment of his death was with the lord....yet his body was still on the cross and then in the tomb.

Then after the resurrection Christ 'arove" and ebtered into the kingdom of heaven in a body of flesh and bone.
This is what the Bible teaches will also happen to us too.

When we die our body goes into the dirt and our spirit goes to be at home with the Lord.
Then in the resurrection we will return with the Lord and rise up out of the grave in a body of flesh and bone.

......LOL.....Jesus went up to the father in his body after many days of talking to us....

but the spirit of Christ was with the lord at his death.
.....here I am talking about the fact that Christ died on the cross after he sent his spirit to the father.
His dead body still hung on the cross, but his spirit was with the Lord at his death.


the same will happen to us too....As I have said before, Christ is the example of what our own resurrection will be like.
His is our only guide.


when i die my body will go into the dirt but my spirit will go to be with the Lord.
then when the lord returns i will rise up from the grave....and then meet the lord in the air so that where jesus is i will also be....this is the teaching of the Bible and always has been.


so that is why we think of jesus as being our only example of what our fate will be...No new teaching that anyone might dream up or claim to have received can disagree with what we have already been given in our example with the resurrection of Christ.

I was mainly referring to the idea that the Father is a separate and distinct being from our Lord Jesus Christ. Making two beings one will, and only because Christ freely subjects a separate will all His own to the Father's will. That Christ has always been a separate and distinct being with His own will apart from the Father.

[alanmolstad]

I talk about the concept of the Holy Trinity like this...that Jesus is the 2nd "person" of the Trinity,
Jesus is not the Father, nor is he the Spirit,,,yet with the father and the Spirit Jesus is worshiped as the one true God....

[alanmolstad]

and so.....

This is why I posted the words - "but the spirit of christ was with the lord at his death"

For this is in agreement with the scripture that says at Luke 23:46 "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit."....

[dberrie2000]

So to review.

Jesus is both fully human and fully God Almighty.

as a human with a normal human nature, Jesus is flesh and bone...he can be seen,,,felt...heard.

As God Jesus is pure spirit, and thus invisible and completely beyond our ability to understand.
This is why Jesus is the image of the invisible God...for the Word BECAME flesh!

The Word became something that it was not beforehand...

The Father did not become flesh
The Holy Spirit did not become flesh.

Only the Word became flesh and lived with us as a normal human.

The Word became flesh, but never stopped being fully God Almighty,,,and as God almighty the Word was and is always spirit, and invisible.

Thisis why the Word had to "become"flesh

So--is God a resurrected man of flesh and bone-- or not?

[alanmolstad]

I think in the life and salvation story of the thief on the cross, and in the life of the man who asked Jesus a question about keeping the commandmdnts we have a great way to study the results of the false teaching of "Works salvation"

Consider the guy who was talking to Jesus...
He says he had kept the law all his life.
Jesus does not disagree with this claim.
So the guy is the textbook example of working for your salvation.

and yet in the end of the story the guy walks away dejected.....lacking...and to be found lacking by God is to be lost...to be condemned.

His whole life of struggling to keep the law, ended in still learning that all that life still left him short of his goal.
He had to go walking away from talking to Jesus thinking to himself, "What was the point of the law then?"


On the other hand....

Lets consider the life of the thief on the cross.
He spent his life doing evil.
The results of his life spent doing evil got him condemned and nailed to a cross where he would soon die in pain.

and yet, just before his death would happen, he turns to the Lord and believes.
This one simple act of faith changed his eternal future!

This is why the Bible teaches that we are saved by Grace though faith, and not by works.
For the thief on the cross had no works....he had nothing to point to that he could use to justify his enterence into heaven.
All he had was this one single little moment , where he believed in Jesus.



So on the one hand we had a guy who trusted in his works to count with the Lord, and on the other hand we had a guy who only had his faith.


Only the man with faith was saved.

[dberrie2000]

I think in the life and salvation story of the thief on the cross, and in the life of the man who asked Jesus a question about keeping the commandmdnts we have a great way to study the results of the false teaching of "Works salvation"

Consider the guy who was talking to Jesus...
He says he had kept the law all his life.
Jesus does not disagree with this claim.
So the guy is the textbook example of working for your salvation.

and yet in the end of the story the guy walks away dejected.....lacking...and to be found lacking by God is to be lost...to be condemned..

He walked away dejected becacuse Jesus required more yet of him:

Matthew 19:16-21---King James Version (KJV)
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
20 The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?
21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

[alanmolstad]

The only thing asked is the same for us all...
To follow Christ. .
To believe. ....

Saved by grace though FAITH.

What are the works god asks?....to believe in Jesus.


It's that simple?......yes


And this agrees with the Bible where it says - "But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness



Romans 3:22
And this righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no distinction

Romans 4:6
just as David proclaims the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:


Romans 4:24,25 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him …

Romans 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ to …

Romans 5:1,2 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through …