The Thief [Archive] - Walter Martin Ministries Forum

dberrie2000

11-26-2011, 07:12 AM

Origen

Whoever dies in his sins, even if he profess to believe in Christ, does not truly believe in him; and even if that which exists without works be called faith, such faith is dead in itself, as we read in the epistle bearing the name of James (Commentaries on John 19:6 [A.D.226-232]

Gregory of Nyssa

Paul, joining righteousness to faith and weaving them together, constructs of them the breastplates for the infantryman, armoring the soldier properly and safely on both sides. A soldier cannot be considered safely armored when either shield is disjoined from the other. Faith without works of justice is not sufficient for salvation; neither is righteous living secure in itself of salvation, if it is disjoined from faith (Homilies on Ecclesiastes 8 [ca. A.D. 335- 394]).

Jerome

But since in the Law no one is justified before God, it is evident that the just man lives by faith.' It should be noted that he does not say that a man, a person, lives by faith, lest it be thought that he is condemning good works. Rather, he says the 'just' man lives by faith. He implies thereby that
whoever would be faithful and would conduct his life according to the faith can in no other way arrive at the faith or live in it except first he be a just man of pure life, coming up to the faith by certain degrees (Commentaries on Galatians 2:3:11 [A.D. 386]).

This is reflective of the LDS position on faith and works and the thief.

How does the position of the Early Church Fathers compare to those who maintain that the thief was granted eternal life at the cross, and had not obedience to Christ?

Billyray

11-26-2011, 08:50 AM

How does the position of the Early Church Fathers compare to those who maintain that the thief was granted eternal life at the cross, and had not obedience to Christ?

The thief had faith in Christ and was saved as evidenced by the fact that he was with Christ in Paradise that day. ECF's writings are not scripture DB but you already know that.

James Banta

11-26-2011, 10:45 AM

akaSeerone

11-26-2011, 03:00 PM

Did you read Billy Ray's latest post in the "Where are all the faith alone" thread?

That works here to.

Andy

dberrie2000

11-27-2011, 05:26 AM

The thief had faith in Christ and was saved ...

But that is just the point--neither the Bible nor the Early Church Fathers believed that there was not any faith without works:

Origen

Whoever dies in his sins, even if he profess to believe in Christ, does not truly believe in him; and even if that which exists without works be called faith, such faith is dead in itself, as we read in the epistle bearing the name of James (Commentaries on John 19:6 [A.D.226-232]

Gregory of Nyssa

Paul, joining righteousness to faith and weaving them together, constructs of them the breastplates for the infantryman, armoring the soldier properly and safely on both sides. A soldier cannot be considered safely armored when either shield is disjoined from the other. Faith without works of justice is not sufficient for salvation; neither is righteous living secure in itself of salvation, if it is disjoined from faith (Homilies on Ecclesiastes 8 [ca. A.D. 335- 394]).

Jerome

But since in the Law no one is justified before God, it is evident that the just man lives by faith.' It should be noted that he does not say that a man, a person, lives by faith, lest it be thought that he is condemning good works. Rather, he says the 'just' man lives by faith. He implies thereby that
whoever would be faithful and would conduct his life according to the faith can in no other way arrive at the faith or live in it except first he be a just man of pure life, coming up to the faith by certain degrees (Commentaries on Galatians 2:3:11 [A.D. 386]).

But how do these statements differ from the scriptures:

James2:26--"For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also."

ECF's writings are not scripture DB but you already know that.

The wide agreement of the ECF's on this point is worthy of consideration, no matter what one may believe about what cons***utes scripture.

BrianH

11-27-2011, 05:54 AM

dberrie2000

11-27-2011, 05:56 AM

dberrie----Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
Origen

Whoever dies in his sins, even if he profess to believe in Christ, does not truly believe in him; and even if that which exists without works be called faith, such faith is dead in itself, as we read in the epistle bearing the name of James (Commentaries on John 19:6 [A.D.226-232]

Gregory of Nyssa

Paul, joining righteousness to faith and weaving them together, constructs of them the breastplates for the infantryman, armoring the soldier properly and safely on both sides. A soldier cannot be considered safely armored when either shield is disjoined from the other. Faith without works of justice is not sufficient for salvation; neither is righteous living secure in itself of salvation, if it is disjoined from faith (Homilies on Ecclesiastes 8 [ca. A.D. 335- 394]).

Jerome

But since in the Law no one is justified before God, it is evident that the just man lives by faith.' It should be noted that he does not say that a man, a person, lives by faith, lest it be thought that he is condemning good works. Rather, he says the 'just' man lives by faith. He implies thereby that
whoever would be faithful and would conduct his life according to the faith can in no other way arrive at the faith or live in it except first he be a just man of pure life, coming up to the faith by certain degrees (Commentaries on Galatians 2:3:11 [A.D. 386]).

This is reflective of the LDS position on faith and works and the thief.

How does the position of the Early Church Fathers compare to those who maintain that the thief was granted eternal life at the cross, and had not obedience to Christ?

James Banta---The ECF have nothing to say in these tidbits about the status of the thief on the cross.

I beg to disagree. The point of some on this forum--and to the arguments of the faith alone--the thief was saved by faith independent of any obedience to Christ.

These statements state firmly that is a false doctrine--there isn't anything such as faith without works--the same statement that the Bible confirms as true.

James--the thief is the bastion of the faith alone--their flag bearer. When he goes down--their standard falls also.

But as I have stated all along--the faith alone share precious few salvational doctrines with the Bible--the faith alone hanging their theologies on something that is questionable at best--denying the plain and precious parts of the Bible:

James2:26--"For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also."

We have only the words of Jesus that He would be with him is Paradise.

How does that ****ress up with what the scriptures state where Christ actually was:

1 Peter3:18-19--"For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

19By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;"

Billyray

11-27-2011, 11:27 AM

1 Peter3:18-19--"For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

19By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;"

DB do you believe that when the thief died he was with Christ in Paradise? Or do you believe that the verse about this is wrong?

dberrie2000

11-27-2011, 11:34 AM

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
1 Peter3:18-19--"For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

19By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;"

DB do you believe that when the thief died he was with Christ in Paradise? Or do you believe that the verse about this is wrong?

I believe that Paradise was used to denote the spirit world--the exact place where Christ was after death, as described by the Bible-- was the spirit prison.

Billyray

11-27-2011, 11:42 AM

I believe that Paradise was used to denote the spirit world--the exact place where Christ was after death, as described by the Bible-- was the spirit prison.

Why do you believe that the verse is wrong as written? Was it mistranslated do you think?

dberrie2000

11-27-2011, 12:30 PM

Why do you believe that the verse is wrong as written? Was it mistranslated do you think?

Or that the writer had a different conception of paradise. I really do not know.

But this I do know--that I do not hang the evidence my theology on a single hanging chad of translation of a single verse. But I do believe that there are many who are not baptized here on this earth--or that ever heard the name of Jesus Christ while in mortality--that will find eternal life through the plan of salvation of Jesus Christ--which has a plan for all people. The LDS believe that all will be given an opportunity to inherit eternal life, even though they might not had that opportunity here. That is what Temple work here for the LDS is all about--sealing all of mankind together, as families, in the eternities, whomever will have faith in Christ.

Billyray

11-27-2011, 01:02 PM

Or that the writer had a different conception of paradise.

You mean that when he said paradise he really meant spirit prison. That is a significant difference don't you think?

Anyway you can disbelieve the verse as written. But I can't.

Billyray

11-27-2011, 01:04 PM

But I do believe that there are many who are not baptized here on this earth--

Abraham wasn't baptized yet you believe he was saved. Do you believe that he needed a proxy baptism for the dead for him to be saved?

Billyray

11-27-2011, 01:05 PM

The LDS believe that all will be given an opportunity to inherit eternal life, even though they might not had that opportunity here.

What does this have to do with the thief? The thief had faith and was saved. Why does he need a opportunity after death?

Billyray

11-27-2011, 02:13 PM

That is what Temple work here for the LDS is all about--sealing all of mankind together, as families, in the eternities, whomever will have faith in Christ.

Can you show me any NT member who went INSIDE the Temple proper which is the Holy of Holies or the Holy Place?

dberrie2000

11-27-2011, 05:14 PM

You mean that when he said paradise he really meant spirit prison. That is a significant difference don't you think?

Anyway you can disbelieve the verse as written. But I can't.

I know. But you have a dog in the fight.

I was wondering--how much trouble would you have in disbelieving this verse:

Hebrews5:9--"And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;"

Billyray

11-27-2011, 05:17 PM

I know. But you have a dog in the fight.

You are the one who is changing the verse not me.

dberrie2000

11-27-2011, 05:18 PM

What does this have to do with the thief? The thief had faith and was saved.

And what is the evidence that faith is independent of obedience to Christ?

Originally Posted by Billyray View Post---Abraham was justified by faith and not by works. James clearly teaches that faith without works is dead which means that if we do not have works then we do not have true faith.

Originally Posted by Billyray
Those who do not have lifesaving faith do not have works. Those who do have lifesaving faith do have works.

Billyray---Faith without works is dead. Thus there is dead faith and living faith. Those who have dead faith are not saved and do not have works. Those who have living faith (lifesaving faith) have true faith and are saved.

Do you define faith without works?

BrianH

11-27-2011, 06:02 PM

No answer, DB...???

-BH

.

BigJulie

11-27-2011, 06:42 PM

DB do you believe that when the thief died he was with Christ in Paradise? Or do you believe that the verse about this is wrong?

I am curious as you have never answered my question about this. The thief did three things on the cross. He defended Christ, he confessed his sin, and he asked Christ to remember him.

Billyray, I have asked you this a few times now and you have never answered.

Would Christ have saved the thief if the thief did nothing?

Billyray

11-27-2011, 08:12 PM

Would Christ have saved the thief if the thief did nothing?

We are saved when we place our faith in Christ.

MacG

11-28-2011, 02:16 AM

Would Christ have saved the thief if the thief did nothing?

Would the thief have done those things without faith? It was grace that saved through his faith. What made the lame man at the pool of Siloam well? His decades of work attempting to get into the water? If fact, Jesus wanted to help him but his ingrained habit of working to get into the water nearly prevented his healing had Jesus not persued him beyond his initial focus on his failed works.

Of genuine faith, righteous works of obedience out of gra***ude follow. Of faith that is on the level of acknowledgement but disregarding and not following, such as the pre-free range, gr*** eating Nebuchadnezzar or for show out of peer pressure (proof) such as Annias, cannot produce righteous works. Righteous works must be done in the image of God's grace, of unmerited favor, lacking any self interest - like the Holy Spirit directs attention to God the Father. It is faith that grants us the key to the door of heaven after the separation of the sheep and goats, getting us to the Bema seat, it is any surviving righteous works (including personal sacrifices even up to husband, wife, and children mentioned in the Gospels) from that judgement for which we get reward or recompense, where every tear is dried and we will be shown the room Christ has prepared for us in His Father's mansion.

If it was works that saved in the name of serving God, keeping the statutes to a tee the Saducees and Pharisees would still have the keys to the Kingdom, as it turned out the keys were given to Peter.

By now you have read: it is by grace through faith (and that not of yourselves) that you have been saved and not of works otherwise we could boast. Clearly this was written to living people who have not yet reached the Bema seat. They have been saved with no waiting around to see if they did all they could do. For if they had sinned once after faith, they did not do all they could have done.

Grat***ude wants to give, grat***ude can come from being released from the burden of debt those that aren't grateful get their debt reinstated. works programs such as after all we can do are not selfless and lead to boasting or never being good enough AND that's the point of grace - you can never do enough, be good enough to approach the throne, it is by grace we have been restored, born again as it were to do righteous works. What dead man can do righteous work in the eyes of God?

I suppose the evaluative question is are the works borne of faith (thief on the cross, whom I am sure was grateful) or of guilt (fig leaves, works to cover self, CYA, in Adam's case, literally). In either case Paul tells us works do not save. For the unsaved they help to cover the sense of shame but do nothing to save. James is telling us that they are an evaluative tool which points to someone may be of faith (Judas had works) versus one who says they have faith but out of whom works of righteousness do not proceed. There is no gra***ude, no works, no faith, still dead in their sins. Sometimes it is difficult to tell our motives. The heart is decitfully wicked above all things.

dberrie2000

11-28-2011, 04:11 AM

MacG---I suppose the evaluative question is are the works borne of faith (thief on the cross, whom I am sure was grateful) or of guilt (fig leaves, works to cover self, CYA, in Adam's case, literally).

While I find this kind of response typical of the faith alone--my question would be--why could a person not obey Jesus Christ out of gra***ude? Why does it have to be guilt? Why did these obey God:

Hebrews5:9--"And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;"

Is your message here that all who receive of God's grace through their obedience to Him, does so through shame?

In either case Paul tells us works do not save. For the unsaved they help to cover the sense of shame but do nothing to save.

While the LDS would agree that works, faith, belief, trust, etc. does not save one--the scriptures do show that obedience to Jesus Christ(faith in Christ) is the basis that God gives His grace unto life, Paul included:

Romans2:5-11--"But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

6Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

7To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

8But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

9Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

10But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

11For there is no respect of persons with God."

James is telling us that they are an evaluative tool which points to someone may be of faith (Judas had works) versus one who says they have faith but out of whom works of righteousness do not proceed.

You're right--and the difference between dead faith and living faith is the result.

That's a difference a little more intrinsic than the faith alone are willing to admit.

James Banta

11-28-2011, 09:08 AM

I beg to disagree. The point of some on this forum--and to the arguments of the faith alone--the thief was saved by faith independent of any obedience to Christ.

These statements state firmly that is a false doctrine--there isn't anything such as faith without works--the same statement that the Bible confirms as true.

James--the thief is the bastion of the faith alone--their flag bearer. When he goes down--their standard falls also.

But as I have stated all along--the faith alone share precious few salvational doctrines with the Bible--the faith alone hanging their theologies on something that is questionable at best--denying the plain and precious parts of the Bible:

James2:26--"For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also."

How does that ****ress up with what the scriptures state where Christ actually was:

1 Peter3:18-19--"For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

19By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;"

The thief on the cross hasn't been effected by the statements of mere men.. That is all you have done here is quote men and try to make the Church responsible for their teachings.. We are NOT.. We take our theology from the Bible holding it and it alone to be the standard for out faith.. You can quote men forever it makes no difference. Find in the Bible that the thief would not always be with Jesus.

According to the teaching of Jesus SHEOL was divided into two locations One for the wicked and the other "Abraham's Bosom" for those who were righteous in God.. That is where Jesus went and proclaimed across the gulf that justice is satisfied in Him and that they who would not believe were receiving their just reward.. That was the preaching, not the gospel according to Joseph Smith.. IHS jim

BigJulie

11-28-2011, 09:41 AM

We are saved when we place our faith in Christ.

Yes, I know you do not want to acknowledge that the thief actually did something...you have made that clear.

Billyray

11-28-2011, 09:48 AM

Yes, I know you do not want to acknowledge that the thief actually did something...you have made that clear.

The only thing required of the thief was faith.

BigJulie

11-28-2011, 09:49 AM

[QUOTE=MacG;105093]Would the thief have done those things without faith? Exactly my point Mag---faith without works is dead--even for the thief.

It was grace that saved through his faith. But the infant who dies is saved without faith or works. So, truly is always grace that saves us alone and not what WE do (whether it be faith our grace). But, what is faith really? Isn't is just a belief in Christ and what He says. Doesn't faith just mean that we follow Christ and do what He asks?

Of genuine faith, righteous works of obedience out of gra***ude follow. Yes, because we believe Christ and as such, follow Him out of gra***ude. I agree.

It is faith that grants us the key to the door of heaven after the separation of the sheep and goats, Yes, but if faith opens the door to grace, then isn't works an integral part of faith as faith without works is dead?

If it was works that saved in the name of serving God, keeping the statutes to a tee the Saducees and Pharisees would still have the keys to the Kingdom, as it turned out the keys were given to Peter. Yes, if is neither faith nor works (as they are intertwined) that saves us, but merely grace. Therefore, it is not our works that save us---nor our faith (both being imperfect together), but grace alone. Wouldn't you agree? (This is why Christ states that they, those who don't have faith, do the WORKS of iniquity---seeing as they did not have faith.)

By now you have read: it is by grace through faith (and that not of yourselves) that you have been saved and not of works otherwise we could boast. Clearly this was written to living people who have not yet reached the Bema seat. They have been saved with no waiting around to see if they did all they could do. For if they had sinned once after faith, they did not do all they could have done. What do you think Christ means when He tells us the great commandment is to love God with ALL of our heart, ALL of our mind and ALL of our strength? Wouldn't those who love God do ALL they can do as He asks? Christ understands that even the faithful have imperfect faith---which is why when Peter walked on water and then fell, he said "ye of little faith"---our works match our faith. Our works are imperfect precisely because our faith is imperfect. Therefore, it is ALWAYS grace that saves. That said--as we strive to follow God with all of our heart, mind, and strength--HE perfects us. This is called santification.

you can never do enough, be good enough to approach the throne, it is by grace we have been restored, agree!

I suppose the evaluative question is are the works borne of faith (thief on the cross, whom I am sure was grateful) or of guilt (fig leaves, works to cover self, CYA, in Adam's case, literally). In either case Paul tells us works do not save. Yes, Paul makes it clear we are saved by grace.

For the unsaved they help to cover the sense of shame but do nothing to save. James is telling us that they are an evaluative tool which points to someone may be of faith (Judas had works) versus one who says they have faith but out of whom works of righteousness do not proceed. There is no gra***ude, no works, no faith, still dead in their sins. Sometimes it is difficult to tell our motives. The heart is decitfully wicked above all things. Isn't that what God's grace gives--a change of heart?

BigJulie

11-28-2011, 09:50 AM

The only thing required of the thief was faith.

You are avoiding the question Billyray. Would Christ have saved the thief if the thief had not 1) defended Christ, 2) confessed he was a sinner, and 3) asked Christ to remember him?

This is a simple yes or no Billyray, and yet you avoid answering it.

Billyray

11-28-2011, 09:54 AM

You are avoiding the question Billyray. Would Christ have saved the thief if the thief had not 1) defended Christ, 2) confessed he was a sinner, and 3) asked Christ to remember him?

This is a simple yes or no Billyray, and yet you avoid answering it.

Works are not required for salvation.

BigJulie

11-28-2011, 09:56 AM

Works are not required for salvation.

Still avoiding the question Billyray, amazing truly!

But can someone, who is capable, have faith without works? Did the thief have works BECAUSE he had faith? And would Christ have saved the thief had the thief, even though he said in his heart he believed, yet did nothing? Does Christ save the person who says in their heart they believe but then doesn't act on it?

Billyray

11-28-2011, 10:03 AM

Still avoiding the question Billyray, amazing truly!

Truly amazing that you don't understand my response. The only thing required is faith. BTW I don't consider the thief's actions as works.

Billyray

11-28-2011, 10:05 AM

And would Christ have saved the thief had the thief, even though he said in his heart he believed, yet did nothing?
You are trying to make works a requirement for salvation. Works do not contribute for salvation.

BigJulie

11-28-2011, 10:06 AM

Truly amazing that you don't understand my response. The only thing required is faith. BTW I don't consider the thief's actions as works.

Billyray---the only thing required is grace (as a young infant can die and go to heaven without faith our works). I think we agree on that.

As such, the discussion is not what it takes to be saved---but more whether or not one can have faith without works. That said, would Christ have saved the thief if the thief hung on the cross and did nothing instead of what he did which was 1) defend Christ, 2) confess he was a sinner, and 3) ask Christ to remember him. Would Christ have given his grace to the thief if the thief hung there silent. A simple yes or no is all it takes Billyray.

Billyray

11-28-2011, 10:08 AM

Billyray---the only thing required is grace (as a young infant can die and go to heaven without faith our works). I think we agree on that.

If the only requirement is grace then everyone should be exalted.

BrianH

11-28-2011, 10:18 AM

Once again ...where do any of your citations above in any way mention or even hint at the fate or the salvation of the thief?

This is a very simple question, DB. Is there some reason why you refuse to answer it?

-BH

.

BigJulie

11-28-2011, 01:48 PM

If the only requirement is grace then everyone should be exalted.

No, without grace, none could be exalted---so, grace is an absolute requirement for salvation. Don't you agree.

That said, who does Christ give his grace to? Does He give it to those with dead faith or living faith? Would He give His grace to the thief if the thief hung on the cross and said nothing? You still have not answered this question.

Billyray

11-28-2011, 01:55 PM

No, without grace, none could be exalted---so, grace is an absolute requirement for salvation. Don't you agree.

Faith is required, with the exception of infants and the mentally challenged.

BigJulie

11-28-2011, 02:04 PM

Faith is required, with the exception of infants and the mentally challenged.

Billyray--once you make the exception, it is like saying--it is required, except when it is not.

Do you agree, that without grace--no one would be saved. It would not matter if you have faith, it would not matter if you have works--without grace, salvation is impossible. Would you agree?

Billyray

11-28-2011, 04:13 PM

Billyray--once you make the exception, it is like saying--it is required, except when it is not.

We are saved by the grace of God when we place our faith in Christ. That is what is required.

Billyray

11-28-2011, 04:15 PM

It would not matter if you have faith, it would not matter if you have works--without grace, salvation is impossible.

Sure it would matter because if a person has faith in Christ he will be saved and this is by the grace of God.

Billyray

11-28-2011, 04:47 PM

Billyray--once you make the exception, it is like saying--it is required, except when it is not.

It doesn't change the requirement only that God has mercy on those that are incapable to make that decision on their own. For example it is against the law to take a candy bar from the store. An able bodied person will be charged for theft but an infant will be let off the hook because they were incapable to to know better. This doesn't mean the law is not in effect.

BigJulie

11-28-2011, 09:29 PM

It doesn't change the requirement only that God has mercy on those that are incapable to make that decision on their own. For example it is against the law to take a candy bar from the store. An able bodied person will be charged for theft but an infant will be let off the hook because they were incapable to to know better. This doesn't mean the law is not in effect.

Yes, but doesn't it show that ultimately, the law is in the hand's of the Master and that ultimately, it is always His grace as to whether the penalty of the law is enforced or not?

Billyray

11-28-2011, 09:36 PM

Yes, but doesn't it show that ultimately, the law is in the hand's of the Master and that ultimately, it is always His grace as to whether the penalty of the law is enforced or not?

And he has told us what is required. Those who place their faith in him will be saved. Work do not contribute FOR salvation.

BigJulie

11-28-2011, 09:47 PM

And he has told us what is required. Those who place their faith in him will be saved. Work do not contribute FOR salvation.

And do you believe what is required of Him is to believe Him and then do nothing regarding what He tells you to do? Is that faith to you?

Billyray

11-28-2011, 10:10 PM

And do you believe what is required of Him is to believe Him and then do nothing regarding what He tells you to do? Is that faith to you?
I believe that faith is required by us FOR salvation. Works do not contribute FOR salvation.

dberrie2000

11-29-2011, 03:58 AM

And he has told us what is required. Those who place their faith in him will be saved. Work do not contribute FOR salvation.

Then neither does faith:

James2:26--"For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also."

BrianH

11-29-2011, 05:31 AM

Still not seeing even a response, let alone an answer. DB ....where do any of your citations above in any way mention or even hint at the fate or the salvation of the thief?

-BH

.

Billyray

11-29-2011, 07:02 AM

Then neither does faith:

Faith is required.

dberrie2000

11-30-2011, 04:22 AM

Faith is required.

If faith is required--then how does one exclude obedience to Jesus Christ from that term:

James2:26--"For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also."

BrianH

11-30-2011, 04:26 AM

Oh DB....?

Again, where do any of your citations even mention the thief or his eternal fate? How do they say or imply whatever it is that you want to discuss about THE THIEF?

-BH

.

dberrie2000

12-05-2011, 04:09 AM

Oh DB....?

Again, where do any of your citations even mention the thief or his eternal fate? How do they say or imply whatever it is that you want to discuss about THE THIEF?

None of my citations were meant to prove the fate of the thief--the LDS will let God decide that.

But taking the example of the thief to prove that there is no obedience to Jesus Christ necessary for His grace unto life is not their idea of the things that are exemplary of the teachings of Christ and His disciples, and found within the Biblical NT.

Billyray

12-05-2011, 09:36 AM

None of my citations were meant to prove the fate of the thief--the LDS will let God decide that.

But you don't believe that the thief went to Paradise like the Bible clearly states.

neverending

12-05-2011, 05:48 PM

Or that the writer had a different conception of paradise. I really do not know.

But this I do know--that I do not hang the evidence my theology on a single hanging chad of translation of a single verse. But I do believe that there are many who are not baptized here on this earth--or that ever heard the name of Jesus Christ while in mortality--that will find eternal life through the plan of salvation of Jesus Christ--which has a plan for all people. The LDS believe that all will be given an opportunity to inherit eternal life, even though they might not had that opportunity here. That is what Temple work here for the LDS is all about--sealing all of mankind together, as families, in the eternities, whomever will have faith in Christ.

db: CFR please! There are NO second chances. You church takes on a lot of ***umptions and claiming that they are the ONLY TRUE CHURCH and everyone in heaven will be a Mormon. MAN.....that is such a load of manure! How arrogant! Do you not see the pridefullness that your church teaches? Pride cometh before a fall db.

dberrie2000

12-06-2011, 04:07 AM

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
Or that the writer had a different conception of paradise. I really do not know.

But this I do know--that I do not hang the evidence my theology on a single hanging chad of translation of a single verse. But I do believe that there are many who are not baptized here on this earth--or that ever heard the name of Jesus Christ while in mortality--that will find eternal life through the plan of salvation of Jesus Christ--which has a plan for all people. The LDS believe that all will be given an opportunity to inherit eternal life, even though they might not had that opportunity here. That is what Temple work here for the LDS is all about--sealing all of mankind together, as families, in the eternities, whomever will have faith in Christ.

db: CFR please! There are NO second chances.

And where do you find any mention of second chances? I'm referring to those who have not had an opportunity to hear the gospel. The work of salvation goes on in the hereafter, just as it does here. What about death do you believe shortens the arm of Christ to save, or somehow dilutes His Blood?

You church takes on a lot of ***umptions and claiming that they are the ONLY TRUE CHURCH

Just how many churches do you believe God has? If we look at the scriptures--we only find one true church--led by the living apostles of Jesus Christ, although there might have been others that claimed so.

If one were to reject that true church of the NT--and start their own--could they have been saved by doing so?

and everyone in heaven will be a Mormon. MAN.....that is such a load of manure! How arrogant! Do you not see the pridefullness that your church teaches? Pride cometh before a fall db.

LDS do not believe in being a Mormon--that is your take, not the LDS. There will be only those who follow Christ, and obey Him found within the kingdom of God. There is only one church of God--and anyone who teaches there is no obedience to Jesus Christ necessary for salvation, is not that church.

Billyray

12-06-2011, 09:04 AM

What about death do you believe shortens the arm of Christ to save, or somehow dilutes His Blood?

Does God need ordinances to save?

James Banta

12-06-2011, 09:30 AM

[dberrie2000;105770]And where do you find any mention of second chances? I'm referring to those who have not had an opportunity to hear the gospel. The work of salvation goes on in the hereafter, just as it does here. What about death do you believe shortens the arm of Christ to save, or somehow dilutes His Blood?

This life is their one and only chance.. The Bible is clear:

Heb 9:27
And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment

God judge what each man is judged by.. What the Bible says is there is no forgiveness outside Jesus. That He is the Way, the Truth and the Life.. Each man is given his lifetime to come to Christ and that is all, after that the judgement..

Just how many churches do you believe God has? If we look at the scriptures--we only find one true church--led by the living apostles of Jesus Christ, although there might have been others that claimed so.

There is one Church.. there are many churches that the Church gathers in.. See the Church is not a building or and organization but a living thing, the very Body of Her Lord, Jesus. yes the Church's Apostles are living just as the Patriarchs are living:

Mark 12:26-27
have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?
He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.

I agree with the words Jesus spoke here "ye therefore do greatly err" for like the Patriarchs the Apostles are His Apostles and He is the God of the living not the dead..

If one were to reject that true church of the NT--and start their own--could they have been saved by doing so

No one can start a "True" Church".. You are right there is only one.. And only God can add members to it.

Acts 2:48
...And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.
Peter didn't do it. Paul didn't do it.. Only Jesus!! Smith didn't do it.. The TRUE Church has been here all alone and needed no restoration.. If it was lost then Jesus lied about being with us till the end of the age and that even the gates of hell couldn't stand against the Church.. Any church that teaches that the Church was ever lost is false..

LDS do not believe in being a Mormon--that is your take, not the LDS. There will be only those who follow Christ, and obey Him found within the kingdom of God. There is only one church of God--and anyone who teaches there is no obedience to Jesus Christ necessary for salvation, is not that church.

I have shown you again and again from the Law that you are NOT obedient to the commandments of God. You aren't even obedient to the commandments of Jesus in the NT.. So any hope of your salvation by obedience is GONE.. Yes mormonism does teach it as the way to life but that is wrong.. Such laws are given as a schoolmaster to bring us to Jesus.. We see that we have failed to measure up to those commandments and seek shelter in His grace through faith.. Those that do so are the true Church.. The ONE TRUE CHURCH..

You are right we must be obedient but I have fail to be obedient, and worse, you have also failed but cling onto the idea that adding clean water to sewage will make it clean. There is no forgiveness of sin in obedience. Forgiveness of sin required sacrifice of the blood of the innocent. Only in the Blood of the spotless Lamb of God is it found. Only in the imputed righteousness of that Lamb on us are we righteous..

Just where does your partial obedience bring real righteousness? IT DOESN'T.. Mormonism has made up a new Jesus. A different Jesus from that God the Church has already received. The mormon Jesus is that Jesus, different in that He became a god, different in that he was a creation of another created god, different in that He cleanses his believers in water and not his blood and then demands what the flesh can not give, obedience.. This is why the Church sees mormonism as a cult and a false religion. Because the Jesus they hold to be the Jesus found in the Bible is that man made invention..That is not the Church found in the NT.. Mormonism is the three dollar bill of Christianity.. IHS jim

dberrie2000

12-07-2011, 04:05 AM

Does God need ordinances to save?

I can't tell you what God needs--but I can relate to you that the scriptures reveal that those who obey God's commands receive of His grace.

Acts2:38--"Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."

Could you explain for us what it is about repentance and water baptism that you believe is not obedience to Jesus's commands, and what it is about the remission of sins that you do not consider His grace?

dberrie2000

12-07-2011, 04:20 AM

dberrie---And where do you find any mention of second chances? I'm referring to those who have not had an opportunity to hear the gospel. The work of salvation goes on in the hereafter, just as it does here. What about death do you believe shortens the arm of Christ to save, or somehow dilutes His Blood?

This life is their one and only chance.. The Bible is clear:

Heb 9:27
And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment

Maybe you can explain where within that scripture it states that no one will be given the opportunity to hear the gospel following death--if they did not here it during mortality?

Do you believe that all those who have died without that opportunity are sent to hell?

James Banta---There is one Church.. there are many churches that the Church gathers in..

No James--there was not many churches that the one church gathered in--there was one church--period. There might have been many congregations--but only one church.

And that one church was headed by Jesus Christ--and founded upon the foundation of the living apostles. That was the only church in the NT.

Do you believe that one could have rejected that church--and formed their own--and still have had salvation?

See the Church is not a building or and organization but a living thing, the very Body of Her Lord, Jesus.

Then that is evidence there are not "many churches" that make up the one church.

No one can start a "True" Church".. You are right there is only one..

Yes, James--there is one that can start a true church--and that is Christ alone. And those who are directed by Him to direct that church have heavenly manifestations, which none of the churches of today claim.

And only God can add members to it.[

Acts 2:48
...And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.
Peter didn't do it. Paul didn't do it.. Only Jesus!! Smith didn't do it.. The TRUE Church has been here all alone and needed no restoration..

And this is how they were added:

Acts2:38-42--"Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

39For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call.

40And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.

41Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

42And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers."

Something the faith alone deny is even true.

If it was lost then Jesus lied about being with us till the end of the age and that even the gates of hell couldn't stand against the Church.. Any church that teaches that the Church was ever lost is false..

And anyone who denies that there isn't any obedience to Jesus Christ that is necessary for His grace unto life--isn't that church.

Billyray

12-07-2011, 09:59 AM

I can't tell you what God needs--but I can relate to you that the scriptures reveal that those who obey God's commands receive of His grace.

OK lets say you are right that works are required FOR salvation. What works do I need to do to be saved?

James Banta

12-07-2011, 02:28 PM

D, I just showed you a verse that tells us that judgment awaits on our death. Not a second chance. There are other p***ages such as 2 Cor 6:2 "For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation." And again Jesus speaking of doing the works of God while it is light "I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work (John 9:4).. Is there any chance to become a child of God after death, NO. It is done here or not at all..

There are those that Jesus Himself called churches. For example the church of Ephesus from Rev 2:1, the church in Philadelphia from Rev 3:7.. In total Jesus specks of 7 churches in the context.. Each congregation is called a church.. In each of these local churches the Church, the called out ones, the body of Christ, meets one with the other. There is but one Church but the children of God ***emble together in different churches with different names all with different ways of operation under different human authority but all of them that are Christian look to their Lord and His word as the final authority in all matters.

Yes I could start a church.. That is not a hard thing to do nor is it an issue of faith.. It is a matter of where God would have you serve Him. All Christian churches no matter what the name on the building are gathering places for the real Church, God's children, to gather. This could ne in a park, on a hillside, in a Cathedral, or a person's home.. Each would have a name like Good Shepard Lutheran, or Sandy Ridge Community, or first Presbyterian. That doesn't matter at all. What matters is the Church meeting there with them? Those who by the grace of God through faith in Jesus have become children of the Most High. Is there one true Church, Yes it is all the believers is the Jesus revealed in the Bible.. Not believers in some man made image of God they have given the Biblical name to such as what mormonism has done with the Name of Jesus. Teaching that he was creation of some other god that in turn was the creation of some other created god.. That is just as bad as if I had made a garden gnome placed it in my back yard and called it Jesus and ascribed to it all the works the Bible teaches the real Jesus did.. Unless the Jesus of your worship conforms to the God of the Old and New Testaments of the Bible it is a man made image and NOT the God of ALL creation..

I have shown you that there were many churches scattered all over the known world in the time of John the Beloved. Yet we that there is one Church which is the body of Christ that all believers are a member.The Church is so called the Body of Jesus by the Apostle Paul in Col 1:24 "Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church". Again it is stated clearly and it not a hidden truth to anyone that will see..

Jesus never started a Church in his ministry. He did refer to it but the power for the Church to become was given through God the Holy spirit as He filled the believers at Pentecost. That is the birthday of the Church. She has existed from that time all the way down through the centuries until today. Her Lord told Her that He would build Her and the gates of Hell would not stand against Her. He promised to be with Her always until the very end of the age.. If that is the true Church then anything but that would be a false church.. Mormonism denies that message and just on that denial is a false church..

I will not speak against baptism as a commandment of Jesus that we should obey.. It's a small thing anyone can do. Still it is by the grace of God that salvation comes. It is Blood that brings atonement. Repentance is changing ones mind and taking on the name of Jesus. We are baptized into Him in His blood.. I still say that water baptism is conducted because of that remission because the blood of Jesus is NOT is that font, just water.. Water can aid in the cleansing of the body but has power to cleanse even one little sin.. Foe without the shedding of blood there is no remission (Heb 9:22). the three thousand saved that day in Jerusalem were saved as they "gladly received his word" and then they were baptized. Jesus added then all to the Church because of their faith.. As you can see believing that they were saved by their faith as they received the word is accepted by Me who believes that only by God's grace through faith and NOT by anything we can do are we saved fits nicely into the text of Acts 2:38-42..

Anyone that believes that doing your best to be obedient is obedient is a fool.. If anyone looks to obedience as the way to life must be obedient 100% or make sure that you have repented 100% and never again to commit the same sin tiem and again.. You have never told me about your obedience in keeping the whole of the Law of God.. Because if salvation is by works then doing the works of the Law is what God would require.. How was your in-gathering this year? Did you have a wonderful time at the feast of the booths? Who prepared the Lamb for the P***over? Are you really obedient? IHS jim

dberrie2000

12-08-2011, 08:30 AM

Originally Posted by James Banta View Post
This life is their one and only chance.. The Bible is clear:

Heb 9:27
And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment

dberrie----Maybe you can explain where within that scripture it states that no one will be given the opportunity to hear the gospel following death--if they did not here it during mortality?

Do you believe that all those who have died without that opportunity are sent to hell?

D, I just showed you a verse that tells us that judgment awaits on our death. Not a second chance. There are other p***ages such as 2 Cor 6:2 "For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation." And again Jesus speaking of doing the works of God while it is light "I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work (John 9:4).. Is there any chance to become a child of God after death, NO. It is done here or not at all..

If that is true--how did all the Gentiles become children of God through faith in Christ, prior to the NT?

Again--do you believe that all those who never had the opportunity to hear the gospel will be sent to hell?

dberrie2000

12-08-2011, 08:33 AM

OK lets say you are right that works are required FOR salvation. What works do I need to do to be saved?

The Bible teaches such things as repentance and water baptism for the remission of sins(faith in Christ)--following Christ--enduring to the end--obedience to the doctrines and commandments of God, etc.

Which the faith alone deny is necessary for salvation.

Again, Billyray--the faith alone have precious little in common with the Biblical NT.

James Banta

12-08-2011, 09:11 AM

If that is true--how did all the Gentiles become children of God through faith in Christ, prior to the NT?

Again--do you believe that all those who never had the opportunity to hear the gospel will be sent to hell?

God will give grace to who He wills.. Since salvation is by faith in Jesus (God), then like all Israel, those in the OT era that held faith in Him like Abraham were counted righteous before God.. There are no excuses no second chances.. I have shown you the p***ages that say that NOW is the day of salvation here are the ones that tell us how those that never heard of Jesus can be saved:

Romans 1:19-20
Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse
There is no excuse, no second chance.. To believe as the LDS church teaches is to deny the Bible.. I have shown you that I believe the Whole of the Bible.. Not with the slant I see in the mormon interpretation but as the Holy Spirit teaches it to me. It all fit together. All based on what God has done for us not what we try to do for Him or even for ourselves. Yes he prepares works for us to do, but my tasks my not be what He would ask you. These would not be our works but the works of He who would send us. Some are asked to offer their lives as a testimony, others to contribute out of the wealth God give to them. Some are called into the ministry of the word to teach. Everyone is gifted differently.. But our salvation has nothing to do with anything we can do.. As the Holy Spirit has taught me even our faith is His gift to those that He wills.. In God's knowledge and wisdom His choices have been made and all your complaints about their justice mean nothing..

And may God bless all the pygmies in Africa (Larry the Cable Guy).. IHS jim

dberrie2000

12-10-2011, 05:58 AM

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
If that is true--how did all the Gentiles become children of God through faith in Christ, prior to the NT?

Again--do you believe that all those who never had the opportunity to hear the gospel will be sent to hell?

God will give grace to who He wills.. Since salvation is by faith in Jesus (God), then like all Israel, those in the OT era that held faith in Him like Abraham were counted righteous before God..

But Abraham lived under the gospel of Christ--not the Mosaic Law, where there was no grace unto life.

And you are addressing those who did have a chance to hear the gospel--my question is--what about all those who have never had an opportunity to hear the gospel?

What about those who were OT Gentile--which was before the Atonement and adoption into the seed of Abraham? Were they all sent to hell?

Billyray

12-10-2011, 08:04 AM

But Abraham lived under the gospel of Christ--
Abraham didn't live under the gospel of Christ DB. You keep making that claim but you can't support it from the Bible. Prove that he did or retract this false claim.

dberrie2000

12-17-2011, 06:28 AM

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
But Abraham lived under the gospel of Christ--

Abraham didn't live under the gospel of Christ DB. You keep making that claim but you can't support it from the Bible. Prove that he did or retract this false claim.

Galatians3:7-9--"Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

8And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

9So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham."

What gospel was this? If it were not the gospel of Christ--was it the gospel at all?

Why did it involve faith? What gospel involves faith being counted as righteousness:

Genesis15:6--"And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness."

Galatians3:18-19--"For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

19Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator."

Could you explain for us what the Mosaic law was added to because of transgressions?

Billyray

12-17-2011, 08:21 AM

Galatians3:7-9--"Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

8And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

What gospel was this? If it were not the gospel of Christ--was it the gospel at all?

Abraham knew ahead of time that a Savior would come through his line.

When are you going to give me proof that Abraham lived under the gospel of Christ? Where is Baptism for the remission of sin? Where is laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost? Where are any of the ordinances? DB either prove your ridiculous claim or retract it.

Billyray

12-17-2011, 08:26 AM

Could you explain for us what the Mosaic law was added to because of transgressions?
Sure it was added because up to that point there were very few laws that had been given.

Billyray

12-20-2011, 07:25 PM

Could you explain for us what the Mosaic law was added to because of transgressions?
Why are you asking me this is the Mormon board so this is about YOUR beliefs.

You tell me what it was added to then we can further examine it.

You are not afraid to talk about Mormonism are you?

dberrie2000

12-21-2011, 04:02 AM

Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
Abraham didn't live under the gospel of Christ DB. You keep making that claim but you can't support it from the Bible. Prove that he did or retract this false claim.

dberrie---Galatians3:7-9--"Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

8And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

9So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham."

What gospel was this? If it were not the gospel of Christ--was it the gospel at all?

Why did it involve faith? What gospel involves faith being counted as righteousness:

Genesis15:6--"And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness."

Galatians3:18-19--"For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

19Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator."

Could you explain for us what the Mosaic law was added to because of transgressions?

Abraham knew ahead of time that a Savior would come through his line.

And how does that address the concern of Abraham being taught the gospel, or him living under that gospel?

When are you going to give me proof that Abraham lived under the gospel of Christ?

What other gospel would have resulted in this:

Genesis15:6--"And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness."

Where is Baptism for the remission of sin? Where is laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost? Where are any of the ordinances? DB either prove your ridiculous claim or retract it.

Genesis26:4-5--"And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;

5Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws."

Could you explain under what gospel those are adopted as being the seed of Abraham, and heirs according to the promise?

Billyray

12-21-2011, 08:27 AM

And how does that address the concern of Abraham being taught the gospel, or him living under that gospel?

Abraham knew ahead of time that a Savior would come through his line.
But Abraham never lived under the LDS gospel. If you believe he did then show me from the OT any of the things that would be consistent with this gospel. Once you fail to do so I don't want to hear this bogus claim again. Comprende?

Billyray

12-21-2011, 08:30 AM

What other gospel would have resulted in this:

Genesis15:6--"And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness."

All people who come to God either pre law, during the law, or after the law during the gospel of Christ are saved by placing their faith in God.

Billyray

12-21-2011, 08:33 AM

5Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws."

Could you explain under what gospel those are adopted as being the seed of Abraham, and heirs according to the promise?

Abraham was not under the LDS gospel. Abraham was given commands by God and he followed those commands.

dberrie2000

12-24-2011, 08:38 PM

All people who come to God either pre law, during the law, or after the law during the gospel of Christ are saved by placing their faith in God.

Not the first person was saved under the Mosaic law. It had no saving power, and the Blood of Christ had yet to be shed for mankind, whereby any could be saved unto life eternal.

All were still under the condemnation of the Fall, as to the Mosaic Law or prior to the Atonement of Jesus Christ. Even Abraham had to await that day.

dberrie2000

12-24-2011, 08:41 PM

Abraham knew ahead of time that a Savior would come through his line. But Abraham never lived under the LDS gospel.

There is no such thing as an LDS gospel--it is either the gospel of Jesus Christ or it isn't. And Abraham lived under that gospel.

Another diversion tactic.

Billyray

12-25-2011, 01:26 PM

There is no such thing as an LDS gospel--it is either the gospel of Jesus Christ or it isn't. And Abraham lived under that gospel.

DB please show me where Abraham lived under the LDS gospel.

Russianwolfe

12-25-2011, 03:08 PM

DB please show me where Abraham lived under the LDS gospel.

Here we go. The great big Billyray Merry-Go-Round.

Marvin

Billyray

12-25-2011, 03:42 PM

Here we go. The great big Billyray Merry-Go-Round.

Marvin

If you can show me that they lived under the LDS type of gospel pre law then I wouldn't keep asking you guys this question.

Did they have baptism?

What about laying on of hands for the gift of the holy ghost?

Temple ordinances?

Russianwolfe

12-26-2011, 12:51 AM

If you can show me that they lived under the LDS type of gospel pre law then I wouldn't keep asking you guys this question.

Did they have baptism?

What about laying on of hands for the gift of the holy ghost?

Temple ordinances?

Round and round we go, where we stop nobody knows.

Marvin

dberrie2000

12-26-2011, 07:15 AM

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
There is no such thing as an LDS gospel--it is either the gospel of Jesus Christ or it isn't. And Abraham lived under that gospel.

DB please show me where Abraham lived under the LDS gospel.

Where do you find any mention of the "LDS gospel" in Galatians3:8:

Galatians3:8--"And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed."

How does your changing the goalposts deny the fact that Abraham lived under the Gospel of Jesus Christ?

Billyray

12-26-2011, 08:08 AM

Where do you find any mention of the "LDS gospel" in Galatians3:8:

Galatians3:8--"And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed."

How does your changing the goalposts deny the fact that Abraham lived under the Gospel of Jesus Christ?

Abraham didn't live under the LDS gospel. Can you show me any evidence that he did such as baptism?

dberrie2000

12-26-2011, 09:20 AM

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
Where do you find any mention of the "LDS gospel" in Galatians3:8:

Galatians3:8--"And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed."

How does your changing the goalposts deny the fact that Abraham lived under the Gospel of Jesus Christ?

Abraham didn't live under the LDS gospel. Can you show me any evidence that he did such as baptism?

The scriptures have Abraham being taught the gospel, and living under the laws, statues, and commandments of Jesus Christ, no matter what you believe it is. And on top of that--receiving the grace of God because he obeyed God's laws, statutes, and commandments:

Genesis26:4-5--"And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;

5Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws."

That he received of the grace of God according to his obedience--violate any faith alone theology.

If it was not the gospel of Jesus Christ--was it the gospel at all? Showing baptism, or any other specific ordinance cannot negate the fact it was the gospel of Jesus Christ--the very one who brought the gospel to Abraham.

Billyray

12-26-2011, 09:21 AM

Round and round we go, where we stop nobody knows.

Marvin
It obviously stops with you Marvin because you can't provide evidence for your claim that Abraham lived under the LDS gospel.

Billyray

12-26-2011, 09:23 AM

The scriptures have Abraham being taught the gospel, and living under the laws, statues, and commandments of Jesus Christ, no matter what you believe it is. theology.

Then why do you ***ume it is the LDS gospel since you have absolutely no proof for this? The Bible gives us things that were given to Abraham to obey and this in no way matches the LDS gospel.

Billyray

12-26-2011, 09:26 AM

5Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws."

And use the Bible to show us what these commands were. To leave the land where he was living, to have a son, to sacrifice his son etc. Are there any other commands that you want to add that in any way show that Abraham was under the LDS gospel?

Russianwolfe

12-26-2011, 09:57 AM

It obviously stops with you Marvin because you can't provide evidence for your claim that Abraham lived under the LDS gospel.

And around and around.

Marvin

PS DBerrie has already pointout that there is no LDS gospel. There is only the Gospel of Jesus Christ. When Paul said that Abraham was living under the Gospel, he meant the Gospel of Jesus Christ. That is all we need to know. And it is the greatest problem for you. The Bible teaches this and you are attempting to negate the Bible, which makes you anti-Biblical.

Billyray

12-26-2011, 10:05 AM

There is only the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Marvin list for me all of the commandments that Abraham was under and then we can compare those to the LDS gospel.

Russianwolfe

12-26-2011, 10:09 AM

Marvin list for me all of the commandments that Abraham wad under and then we can compare those to the LDS gospel.

There is no LDS gospel.

Remember Billyray, this forum is about LDS beliefs, not about your personal distortions of what the LDS believe. Every time you use the phrase, "LDS gospel", you are violating the rule of the forum that you are constantly reminding us of, that this forum is about LDS belief. Please stop being the hypocrite by using this phrase. It is a reflection of your own distorted opinion and is not an LDS belief.

Marvin

dberrie2000

12-26-2011, 10:09 AM

Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
Abraham didn't live under the LDS gospel. Can you show me any evidence that he did such as baptism?

dberrie---The scriptures have Abraham being taught the gospel, and living under the laws, statues, and commandments of Jesus Christ, no matter what you believe it is. And on top of that--receiving the grace of God because he obeyed God's laws, statutes, and commandments:

Genesis26:4-5--"And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;

5Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws."

That he received of the grace of God according to his obedience--violates any faith alone theology.

If it was not the gospel of Jesus Christ--was it the gospel at all? Showing baptism, or any other specific ordinance cannot negate the fact it was the gospel of Jesus Christ--the very one who brought the gospel to Abraham.

And use the Bible to show us what these commands were. To leave the land where he was living, to have a son, to sacrifice his son etc. Are there any other commands that you want to add that in any way show that Abraham was under the LDS gospel?

There is no LDS gospel, as I stated to you. There is only the gospel of Jesus Christ--or it isn't the gospel at all. Your adding "LDS" to that is only a diversion of your making. If you see anywhere I have stated that--please print it.

What it consisted of in no way addresses the fact that the scriptures state that Abraham was taught the gospel of Jesus Christ, or that Abraham received of God's grace for obedience to that gospel laws, statutes, or commandments.

To be quite frank, Billyray--I see no more than your "add-on" diversions in your answers--which is why I started the changing goalposts thread. Your posts have no substance whatsoever.

You did really bad when you tried to defend your theology--now you spend your time in diversions--but appear even worse yet.

Billyray

12-26-2011, 10:15 AM

What it consisted of in no way addresses the fact that the scriptures state that Abraham was taught the gospel of Jesus Christ, or that Abraham received of God's grace for obedience to that gospel laws, statutes, or commandments.
Show me from the Bible what those commandments were that Abraham was under.

dberrie2000

12-26-2011, 04:09 PM

Show me from the Bible what those commandments were that Abraham was under.

And just how would that effect the scripture stating that Abraham was taught the gospel:

Galatians3:8--"And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed."

Galatians3:17-19--"And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

Which was four hundred and thirty years after what?

V18For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

19Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator."

It was added to what?

Billyray

12-26-2011, 04:28 PM

And just how would that effect the scripture stating that Abraham was taught the gospel:

Abraham knew about Christ coming but nowhere does the Bible teach what you believe, that Abraham lived under the LDS type of gospel. You haven't shown me that yet you still claim that this is true. Please show me in the Bible where this is taught. Show me from the Bible what Commandments Abraham was under so we can validate your claims.

Billyray

12-26-2011, 04:32 PM

It was added to what?

I have already answered this question multiple times and you simply ignore it. Here it is again for you. It was added to the existing commandments such as not eating blood etc.

Now are you going to show me where it says that Abraham was under the LDS gospel?

Russianwolfe

12-26-2011, 07:38 PM

* * * S T R A W M A N A L E R T * * *

Abraham knew about Christ coming but nowhere does the Bible teach what you believe, that Abraham lived under the LDS type of gospel. You haven't shown me that yet you still claim that this is true. Please show me in the Bible where this is taught. Show me from the Bible what Commandments Abraham was under so we can validate your claims.

There is no LDS type of Gospel. There is only the Gospel of Jesus Christ. The LDS believe it and follow it to the best of their ability.

Marvin

Russianwolfe

12-27-2011, 11:17 AM

Marvin sure there is a LDS type of Gospel and that is the gospel that you believe that Abraham was under. Don't fib with me Marvin because I will call you on it every time.

BTW when are you going to give me some proof that Abraham was under this LDS type of gospel?

There is only the Gospel of Jesus Christ. And the scriptures are enough proof that Abraham was under the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Unless you think that Paul was preaching another Gospel? You don't, do you?

And calling me a liar is not Christ-like.

Marvin

Billyray

12-27-2011, 02:59 PM

There is only the Gospel of Jesus Christ. And the scriptures are enough proof that Abraham was under the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
Is the LDS gospel that same gospel that Abraham was under?

Can you show me any evidence that Abraham was under the LDS type of gospel?

Russianwolfe

12-27-2011, 08:55 PM

* * * Strawman Alert * * *

Is the LDS gospel that same gospel that Abraham was under?

Can you show me any evidence that Abraham was under the LDS type of gospel?

There is no LDS type of Gospel. There is only the Gospel of Jesus Christ. You have been reminded of this several times. Your refusal to correct your statements and your continual use of this term is dishonest and deceptive.

Abraham was under the Gospel of Jesus Christ, unless you believe that Paul taught a different Gospel.

Marvin

Billyray

12-27-2011, 09:13 PM

There is no LDS type of Gospel. There is only the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Tell me the difference between the LDS gospel and the gospel you believe Abraham was under.

Russianwolfe

12-27-2011, 09:15 PM

Tell me the difference between the LDS gospel and the gospel you believe Abraham was under.

You are the one who is making this claim. You provide the list of differences. You support your claim. Don't expect me to do your work for you.

Marvin

Billyray

12-27-2011, 09:34 PM

You are the one who is making this claim. You provide the list of differences. You support your claim. Don't expect me to do your work for you.

Marvin

I made the claim that you believe that Abraham was under the LDS type of gospel. You took issue with that so I am asking you what is different.

Russianwolfe

12-27-2011, 09:44 PM

I made the claim that you believe that Abraham was under the LDS type of gospel. You took issue with that so I am asking you what is different.

Yes, you made the claim. So do the work and support your claim. Don't expect me to do your work for you.

Marvin

PS And you still insist on that strawman argument. I guess you don't mind be thought of as dishonest and deceptive.

Billyray

12-27-2011, 09:48 PM

Yes, you made the claim. So do the work and support your claim. Don't expect me to do your work for you.

What I said was true about the LDS type gospel. If you take issue with what I said then you need to tell me what you believe that I said was wrong. What differences are there between the LDS gospel and the gospel that you believe Abraham was under?

dberrie2000

12-31-2011, 07:04 AM

I made the claim that you believe that Abraham was under the LDS type of gospel.

I was wondering--how does your claim here compare with Russianwolf's statement:

Russianwolf---There is no LDS type of Gospel. There is only the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

You made the claim--we are asking you to back your claim.

Where do you find that the LDS believe that the Gospel that Abraham was taught was the same as the "LDS type of gospel"? Where do you even find my LDS reference to that phrase, except it be of your own making?

Billyray

12-31-2011, 07:31 AM

I was wondering--how does your claim here compare with Russianwolf's statement:

Are you denying that LDS believe that the gospel that Abraham was under was a different gospel than you are under?

dberrie2000

12-31-2011, 08:26 AM

Are you denying that LDS believe that the gospel that Abraham was under was a different gospel than you are under?

Yes. It was the same gospel--the gospel of Jesus Christ. The question being--if it was not the gospel of Jesus Christ--was it the gospel at all?

There is only one gospel of Jesus Christ--and the scriptures state that it was the gospel of Jesus Christ that Abraham was taught--and that is what you are going to have to accept--if one desires the truths taught within the Biblical NT.

That does not define what all was contained within that gospel--as the Lord reveals His gospel a little at a time.

For instance--was the gospel after the first century--where it looked a lot different, in which taking the gospel to the Gentiles, and the doing away with circumcision, which was not part of the gospel practiced until later--was that still the gospel of Christ?

Yes, it was. A fuller form of the gospel--but still the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Was it the gospel of Jesus Christ before the resurrection and the Atonement--yes, still the gospel. Was it the gospel before the Holy Ghost--yes, still the gospel.

Adding components to the gospel, which has been done all along--does not disqualify it from being the gospel.

Trying to define every truth revealed does not effect it being the gospel. Trying to qualify the gospel preached to Abraham by comparing it to the gospel truths contained within the LDS church does not disqualify it from the gospel of Jesus Christ, anymore than comparing it to what truths had been revealed after the first century of the NT church.

They were completely different, in many respects. At the end of the first century AD--the gospel looked a lot different than at 33AD.

Abraham was taught the gospel, no matter how you wish to compare it to all the truths contained in the LDS church, or dig up and define every ordinance or commandment Abraham was given.

James Banta

12-31-2011, 10:14 AM

Yes. It was the same gospel--the gospel of Jesus Christ. The question being--if it was not the gospel of Jesus Christ--was it the gospel at all?

There is only one gospel of Jesus Christ--and the scriptures state that it was the gospel of Jesus Christ that Abraham was taught--and that is what you are going to have to accept--if one desires the truths taught within the Biblical NT.

That does not define what all was contained within that gospel--as the Lord reveals His gospel a little at a time.

For instance--was the gospel after the first century--where it looked a lot different, in which taking the gospel to the Gentiles, and the doing away with circumcision, which was not part of the gospel practiced until later--was that still the gospel of Christ?

Yes, it was. A fuller form of the gospel--but still the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Was it the gospel of Jesus Christ before the resurrection and the Atonement--yes, still the gospel. Was it the gospel before the Holy Ghost--yes, still the gospel.

Adding components to the gospel, which has been done all along--does not disqualify it from being the gospel.

Trying to define every truth revealed does not effect it being the gospel. Trying to qualify the gospel preached to Abraham by comparing it to the gospel truths contained within the LDS church does not disqualify it from the gospel of Jesus Christ, anymore than comparing it to what truths had been revealed after the first century of the NT church.

They were completely different, in many respects. At the end of the first century AD--the gospel looked a lot different than at 33AD.

Abraham was taught the gospel, no matter how you wish to compare it to all the truths contained in the LDS church, or dig up and define every ordinance or commandment Abraham was given.

The Gospel is found in Corinthians

1 Cor 15:1-8
Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:
After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.
After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.
And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.

No Laws no ordinances only what about Jesus. His death, burial, and resurrection. As witnessed By the Apostles and 500 of those that believed in Him.. There is no way to include as part of the Gospel something that is not included within the Bible.. Unless you are teaching that the Bible is not the word of God.. IHS jim

Billyray

12-31-2011, 12:11 PM

Yes. It was the same gospel--the gospel of Jesus Christ.

So why all of the belly aching when I said the LDS type gospel?

dberrie2000

01-01-2012, 09:05 AM

Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
Are you denying that LDS believe that the gospel that Abraham was under was a different gospel than you are under?

dberrie---Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
[B]Yes. It was the same gospel--the gospel of Jesus Christ.[B] The question being--if it was not the gospel of Jesus Christ--was it the gospel at all?

There is only one gospel of Jesus Christ--and the scriptures state that it was the gospel of Jesus Christ that Abraham was taught--and that is what you are going to have to accept--if one desires the truths taught within the Biblical NT.

That does not define what all was contained within that gospel--as the Lord reveals His gospel a little at a time.

For instance--was the gospel after the first century--where it looked a lot different, in which taking the gospel to the Gentiles, and the doing away with circumcision, which was not part of the gospel practiced until later--was that still the gospel of Christ?

Yes, it was. A fuller form of the gospel--but still the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Was it the gospel of Jesus Christ before the resurrection and the Atonement--yes, still the gospel. Was it the gospel before the Holy Ghost--yes, still the gospel.

Adding components to the gospel, which has been done all along--does not disqualify it from being the gospel.

Trying to define every truth revealed does not effect it being the gospel. Trying to qualify the gospel preached to Abraham by comparing it to the gospel truths contained within the LDS church does not disqualify it from the gospel of Jesus Christ, anymore than comparing it to what truths had been revealed after the first century of the NT church.

They were completely different, in many respects. At the end of the first century AD--the gospel looked a lot different than at 33AD.

Abraham was taught the gospel, no matter how you wish to compare it to all the truths contained in the LDS church, or dig up and define every ordinance or commandment Abraham was given.

[QUOTE=Billyray;109258]So why all of the belly aching when I said the LDS type gospel?

Because there is no "LDS type gospel". There is only the gospel of Jesus Christ--or it isn't the gospel at all.

dberrie2000

01-01-2012, 09:11 AM

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
Yes. It was the same gospel--the gospel of Jesus Christ. The question being--if it was not the gospel of Jesus Christ--was it the gospel at all?

There is only one gospel of Jesus Christ--and the scriptures state that it was the gospel of Jesus Christ that Abraham was taught--and that is what you are going to have to accept--if one desires the truths taught within the Biblical NT.

That does not define what all was contained within that gospel--as the Lord reveals His gospel a little at a time.

For instance--was the gospel after the first century--where it looked a lot different, in which taking the gospel to the Gentiles, and the doing away with circumcision, which was not part of the gospel practiced until later--was that still the gospel of Christ?

Yes, it was. A fuller form of the gospel--but still the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Was it the gospel of Jesus Christ before the resurrection and the Atonement--yes, still the gospel. Was it the gospel before the Holy Ghost--yes, still the gospel.

Adding components to the gospel, which has been done all along--does not disqualify it from being the gospel.

Trying to define every truth revealed does not effect it being the gospel. Trying to qualify the gospel preached to Abraham by comparing it to the gospel truths contained within the LDS church does not disqualify it from the gospel of Jesus Christ, anymore than comparing it to what truths had been revealed after the first century of the NT church.

They were completely different, in many respects. At the end of the first century AD--the gospel looked a lot different than at 33AD.

Abraham was taught the gospel, no matter how you wish to compare it to all the truths contained in the LDS church, or dig up and define every ordinance or commandment Abraham was given.

The Gospel is found in Corinthians

1 Cor 15:1-8
Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:
After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.
After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.
And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.

The gospel is found throughout the Biblical NT--it is not confined to any one book or scripture.

No Laws no ordinances only what about Jesus.

The gospel of Jesus Christ was a Law itself:

Galatians6:2--"Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ."

James Banta

01-01-2012, 01:23 PM

[dberrie2000;109401]The gospel is found throughout the Biblical NT--it is not confined to any one book or scripture.

Seems like a confirmation to me.. "I declare unto you the gospel".. What more do you need?

The gospel of Jesus Christ was a Law itself:

Galatians6:2--"Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ."

athe law of Jesus is NOT the Gospel.. The Gospel is the good news that Jesus was killed lay in the earth for 3 days and was resurrected.. That is GOOD NEW.. Law is a whole different animal... IHS jim

BigJulie

01-01-2012, 01:31 PM

athe law of Jesus is NOT the Gospel..

Can we quote you on this one James---that the law of Jesus Christ is not the Gospel (of Jesus Christ)?:eek:

Billyray

01-01-2012, 01:40 PM

Because there is no "LDS type gospel". There is only the gospel of Jesus Christ--or it isn't the gospel at all.

Sure there is it is the one you believe in.

dberrie2000

01-01-2012, 04:52 PM

Originally Posted by James Banta View Post

athe law of Jesus is NOT the Gospel..

Can we quote you on this one James---that the law of Jesus Christ is not the Gospel (of Jesus Christ)?:eek:

As long as you don't bring up his previous posts:

James Banta--Only the Mosaic Law has nothing to do with salvation.. You lack of Biblical knowledge is astounding.. Paul tell us that by the Law is the Knowledge of Sin (Romans 3:20). That the Law is a schoolmaster to bring us to Jesus (Gal 3:24).. The LAW of God is more than that He gave to Moses. Yes that is a huge part of the Law. But the LAW is every command given by God.

James Banta

01-02-2012, 11:13 AM

Can we quote you on this one James---that the law of Jesus Christ is not the Gospel (of Jesus Christ)?:eek:

What part of the Gospel as defined by Paul is the commandment to be perfect as the Father in heaven is perfect? I don't see it there.. The good news is Jesus dies for our sin, and was raised the third day for our justification.. That is the Good News, the Gospel! Law is NOT GOOD NEWS, law is the knowledge of sin. Just what did you ever say you believed? It sure wasn't the Bible.. IHS jim

James Banta

01-02-2012, 11:16 AM

As long as you don't bring up his previous posts:

And all I have said is 100% consistent with what I say here.. There is NO LAW OT or NT in the Gospel.. I don't understand you reading into my words as you would want them to appear rather than what I actually say.. That is just what you do to the scriptures! You did this to NE then she simply said the one commandment that came to her mind was the Golden rule. She never said it was the first commandment of God as you made it out to be. You just can't understand even simple statements when you feel that you are in the right. All reason goes out the door. That to your shame..IHS jim

dberrie2000

01-02-2012, 11:35 AM

And all I have said is 100% consistent with what I say here.. There is NO LAW OT or NT in the Gospel..

I know, James. You are 100% wrong.

Galatians5:2--"Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ."

James Banta

01-02-2012, 12:33 PM

I know, James. You are 100% wrong.

Galatians5:2--"Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ."

And where is the Law of Jesus part of the Gospel. Where are they even used in the same context?

Do you ALWAYS bear your fellows burdens? ALWAYS? Do you ALWAYS love your fellow LDS all of them ALWAYS? I say No you don't always bear the burdens of one another, so by the authority of James 2:10 I say that you are guilty of NOT bearing the burdens of anyone.. You can't escape this by pointing a finger at me.. You are also making an unrighteous judgment is telling me that I am somehow worst than you in that commandment. I do admit that I am guilty of breaking the WHOLE of God's law in breaking this and many other commandments. I claim no righteousness of my own.. In myself there is nothing good save it be of God. You on the other hand are busy building the filthy rags of your own self righteousness.. IHS jim

James Banta

01-04-2012, 10:37 AM

And where is the Law of Jesus part of the Gospel. Where are they even used in the same context?

Do you ALWAYS bear your fellows burdens? ALWAYS? Do you ALWAYS love your fellow LDS all of them ALWAYS? I say No you don't always bear the burdens of one another, so by the authority of James 2:10 I say that you are guilty of NOT bearing the burdens of anyone.. You can't escape this by pointing a finger at me.. You are also making an unrighteous judgment is telling me that I am somehow worst than you in that commandment. I do admit that I am guilty of breaking the WHOLE of God's law in breaking this and many other commandments. I claim no righteousness of my own.. In myself there is nothing good save it be of God. You on the other hand are busy building the filthy rags of your own self righteousness.. IHS jim

Can't show that can you.. I didn't think you could.. So:

It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt.
Abraham Lincoln

dberrie2000

01-07-2012, 05:44 AM

Originally Posted by James Banta View Post
And all I have said is 100% consistent with what I say here.. There is NO LAW OT or NT in the Gospel..

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
I know, James. You are 100% wrong.

Galatians5:2--"Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ."

And where is the Law of Jesus part of the Gospel. Where are they even used in the same context?

Are you attempting to show that bearing one another's burdens is not part of the gospel of Jesus Christ?

Do you ALWAYS bear your fellows burdens? ALWAYS? Do you ALWAYS love your fellow LDS all of them ALWAYS? I say No you don't always bear the burdens of one another,

James--using my personal position as a litmus test to determine if the scriptures are true or not in not my idea of good exegesis.

The scriptures state that bearing the burdens of others is the fulfillment of the law of Christ, period. Again--are you stating that that has nothing to do with the gospel of Jesus Christ?

so by the authority of James 2:10 I say that you are guilty of NOT bearing the burdens of anyone.. You can't escape this by pointing a finger at me.. You are also making an unrighteous judgment is telling me that I am somehow worst than you in that commandment. I do admit that I am guilty of breaking the WHOLE of God's law in breaking this and many other commandments. I claim no righteousness of my own.. In myself there is nothing good save it be of God. You on the other hand are busy building the filthy rags of your own self righteousness.. IHS jim

And just where do you find that obeying Christ is related to "filthy rags"?

Are you saying that those of the scriptures had a right to the tree of life due to filthy rags:

Revelation22:14--"Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city."

The faith alone do no more than make a mockery of the Biblical text by their approach of stating there are no acts of obedience to Jesus Christ necessary for His grace unto life. It is in direct contradiction to the scriptures. One is either going to have to have a way of collating the scriptures one to another--or ***ume the Bible is a very unreliable source of truth. Pitting the scriptures against one another, and playing the cat in the litter box, does nothing to establish your theology, and much toward proving the Bible unworthy of belief.

Billyray

01-07-2012, 10:59 AM

The faith alone do no more than make a mockery of the Biblical text by their approach of stating there are no acts of obedience to Jesus Christ necessary for His grace unto life.
The Bible teaches that we are saved when we place our faith in Christ and that our works do not contribute for salvation. It is a mockery for you to teach that your works help save you, and that complete obedience to the commandments is what is required when you fail by your own standards.

dberrie2000

01-07-2012, 11:46 AM

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
The faith alone do no more than make a mockery of the Biblical text by their approach of stating there are no acts of obedience to Jesus Christ necessary for His grace unto life.

The Bible teaches that we are saved when we place our faith in Christ and that our works do not contribute for salvation.

Sure it does:

Philippians2:12--"Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling."

It is a mockery for you to teach that your works help save you,

But of course--the only way to honor God is to teach there are no acts of obedience to Him necessary fro His grace unto life--right?

1 John2:3-4--"And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

4He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him."

and that complete obedience to the commandments is what is required when you fail by your own standards.

The only way to fail is to lose the faith and throw away the truth. The LDS believe that the way to succeed is to rise one more time than we fall.

Billyray

01-07-2012, 11:50 AM

1 John2:3-4--"And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

4He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him."

can you point out where it says that works contribute for salvation?

Billyray

01-07-2012, 11:52 AM

The only way to fail is to lose the faith and throw away the truth. The LDS believe that the way to succeed is to rise one more time than we fall.

Is the standard for exaltation complete obedience to the commandments? If so why will you be exalted since you admit that you don't keep the commandments.

dberrie2000

01-07-2012, 01:09 PM

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
The only way to fail is to lose the faith and throw away the truth. The LDS believe that the way to succeed is to rise one more time than we fall.

Is the standard for exaltation complete obedience to the commandments?

Yes. We have been through this before.

If so why will you be exalted since you admit that you don't keep the commandments.

I suppose I am of the same thinking that Paul was--I press toward the mark of the high calling of God.

That High calling, for me-- is eternal life--the mark is perfection.

Billyray--I don't give up my religion because someone is trying to tell me I can't do it. I have faith in Christ--that somehow He will help me in the eternities to become perfected in Him. I know I can do it. I know it is possible, with God.

Throwing away the truth for some prompting satan whispers in my ear is not my idea of faith in Christ.

Billyray

01-07-2012, 01:40 PM

I suppose I am of the same thinking that Paul was--I press toward the mark of the high calling of God.

But you don't meet your own requirements.

Billyray

01-07-2012, 01:42 PM

Throwing away the truth for some prompting satan whispers in my ear is not my idea of faith in Christ.

Satan is whispering in your ear telling you that you work your way to heaven and that someday you can become a god.

Russianwolfe

01-07-2012, 01:44 PM

But you don't meet your own requirements.

Actually, he will meet the requirements of Christ who told us:

Matthew 5: 48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

If Christ commanded it as he does here, who are you to say it is not possible?

Marvin

dberrie2000

01-07-2012, 01:44 PM

Billyray--If so why will you be exalted since you admit that you don't keep the commandments.

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post

I suppose I am of the same thinking that Paul was--I press toward the mark of the high calling of God.

But you don't meet your own requirements.

They are not my requirement--they are the words of Paul.

What is your evidence that I don't press forward toward the mark?

Billyray

01-07-2012, 02:07 PM

They are not my requirement--they are the words of Paul.

Paul was saved and he was not perfectly obedient to the commandments.

Billyray

01-07-2012, 02:10 PM

What is your evidence that I don't press forward toward the mark?

you have told me flat out that you don't obey the commandments and you don't plan on obeying them in this life. You don't meet your own requirements. Why do you think that I should have a standard that you yourself don't keep?

dberrie2000

01-07-2012, 02:15 PM

Satan is whispering in your ear telling you that you work your way to heaven and that someday you can become a god.

Then we can now positively identify who satan is, can we not, because I have not heard that but from one source here.

Billyray

01-07-2012, 02:17 PM

Then we can now positively identify who satan is, can we not, because I have not heard that but from one source here.
You don't believe that your works contribute for exaltation and that you can be a god?

dberrie2000

01-07-2012, 02:22 PM

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
What is your evidence that I don't press forward toward the mark?

you have told me flat out that you don't obey the commandments and you don't plan on obeying them in this life.

I have told you no such thing. I plan on obeying all the commandments in this life--I just believe that it will be in the life hereafter that I am perfected in that quest. That is why I press on toward the mark--I have not given up on it.

You don't meet your own requirements.

I don't have any requirements--but I do believe Christ does. And that is the mark I press toward.

Why do you think that I should have a standard that you yourself don't keep?

I don't think you should have a standard outside of Christ's. I think all of mankind should have that standard, which is this standard:

Matthew5:48--"Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect."

Billyray

01-07-2012, 02:25 PM

I have told you no such thing. I plan on obeying all the commandments in this life--I just believe that it will be in the life hereafter that I am perfected in that quest. That is why I press on toward the mark--I have not given up on it.

Will you be perfectly obedient to the commandments in this life?

Billyray

01-07-2012, 02:26 PM

Matthew5:48--"Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect."

will you meet this commandment in this life?

dberrie2000

01-07-2012, 02:29 PM

Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
you have told me flat out that you don't obey the commandments and you don't plan on obeying them in this life.

dberrie---I have told you no such thing. I plan on obeying all the commandments in this life--I just believe that it will be in the life hereafter that I am perfected in that quest. That is why I press on toward the mark--I have not given up on it.

Will you be perfectly obedient to the commandments in this life?

Your circling, Billyray. Please read my post carefully.

Billyray

01-07-2012, 02:31 PM

Your circling, Billyray. Please read my post carefully.

In this life you will not meet your own requirements.

What makes you think that can work on your sins in the next life?

dberrie2000

01-07-2012, 02:31 PM

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
Matthew5:48--"Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect."

will you meet this commandment in this life?

Is that your measure of whether this scripture is true or not?

Billyray

01-07-2012, 02:32 PM

Is that your measure of whether this scripture is true or not?

It is a measure of if you are right or not. Obviously if you make up a requirement and every single person falls short of your requirement then what you are telling me is wrong.

dberrie2000

01-07-2012, 05:29 PM

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
Matthew5:48--"Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect."

Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
will you meet this commandment in this life?

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
Is that your measure of whether this scripture is true or not?

It is a measure of if you are right or not. Obviously if you make up a requirement and every single person falls short of your requirement then what you are telling me is wrong.

Billyray--the truth of the matter is--Matthew5:48 is not something that I made up. It's part of the Biblical NT--and out of the mouth of the Savior Himself.

So--do you believe that Christ made something up that every single person falls short of?

Do you believe what Christ stated is false, if that is the case?

Billyray

01-07-2012, 05:33 PM

Billyray--the truth of the matter is--Matthew5:48 is not something that I made up. It's part of the Biblical NT--and out of the mouth of the Savior Himself.

So--do you believe that Christ made something up that every single person falls short of?

Do you believe what Christ stated is false, if that is the case?
Do you or any person you know keep all the commandments?

dberrie2000

01-07-2012, 05:57 PM

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
Matthew5:48--"Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect."

Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
will you meet this commandment in this life?

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
Is that your measure of whether this scripture is true or not?

Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
It is a measure of if you are right or not. Obviously if you make up a requirement and every single person falls short of your requirement then what you are telling me is wrong.

dberrie---Billyray--the truth of the matter is--Matthew5:48 is not something that I made up. It's part of the Biblical NT--and out of the mouth of the Savior Himself.

So--do you believe that Christ made something up that every single person falls short of?

Do you believe what Christ stated is false, if that is the case?

Do you or any person you know keep all the commandments?

If I did--would you believe the Savior's command?

Billyray

01-07-2012, 09:40 PM

If I did--would you believe the Savior's command?

Do you or any person you know keep all the commandments?

dberrie2000

01-08-2012, 06:45 AM

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
Matthew5:48--"Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect."

Do you or any person you know keep all the commandments?

Again--if I did--would you believe that this command of the Savior found in Matthew5:48 was true?

If I don't--would you consider it to be false?

Billyray

01-08-2012, 08:15 AM

Again--if I did--would you believe that this command of the Savior found in Matthew5:48 was true?

If I don't--would you consider it to be false?
Will anyone go to heaven based on this standard of perfect obedience to the commandments?

dberrie2000

01-08-2012, 08:37 AM

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
Matthew5:48--"Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect."

Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
Do you or any person you know keep all the commandments?

dberrie--Again--if I did--would you believe that this command of the Savior found in Matthew5:48 was true?

If I don't--would you consider it to be false?

Will anyone go to heaven based on this standard of perfect obedience to the commandments?

I suppose as many as meet the requirements of the Savior:

Revelation2:26-28--"And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

27And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

28And I will give him the morning star."

Billyray

01-08-2012, 11:10 AM

I suppose as many as meet the requirements of the Savior:

You mean like this one?

John 6
28 Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”
29 Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”

What is the works that are required according to Jesus?

dberrie2000

01-08-2012, 12:21 PM

You mean like this one?

John 6
28 Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”
29 Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”

What is the works that are required according to Jesus?

Whatever works that James implied when he wrote this:

James2:26--"For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also."

Billyray

01-08-2012, 12:40 PM

Whatever works that James implied when he wrote this:

James2:26--"For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also."

John 6
28 Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”
29 Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”

What is the works that are required according to Jesus?

Russianwolfe

01-08-2012, 04:25 PM

John 6
28 Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”
29 Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”

What is the works that are required according to Jesus?

Matthew 25: 31 ¶When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Billyray, what are the works that are required according to Jesus' parable?

Marvin

James Banta

01-08-2012, 07:23 PM

Billyray, what are the works that are required according to Jesus' parable?

Marvin

Same work James talked about.. No a mention of baptism, laying on of hand Temple endowment, Marriage, and enduring to the end in righteousness.. But I want you to look out at the world and see these kind of works done by the United Nation Children's Fund, and the Bill Gates Foundation.. Both doing wonderful work all in the name of humanity.. Can those works save them as they deny even the existence of God? NO, without faith it's impossible to please God (Heb 11:6).. It all boils down to faith and mormonism denies that the God revealed in the Bible actually exists.. I totally understand why you put so much emphasis on works.. Your faith in the God of the Bible is nonexistent.. IHS jim

Russianwolfe

01-09-2012, 12:42 AM

Same work James talked about.. No a mention of baptism, laying on of hand Temple endowment, Marriage, and enduring to the end in righteousness.. But I want you to look out at the world and see these kind of works done by the United Nation Children's Fund, and the Bill Gates Foundation.. Both doing wonderful work all in the name of humanity.. Can those works save them as they deny even the existence of God? NO, without faith it's impossible to please God (Heb 11:6).. It all boils down to faith and mormonism denies that the God revealed in the Bible actually exists.. I totally understand why you put so much emphasis on works.. Your faith in the God of the Bible is nonexistent.. IHS jim

My faith is totally in the God of the Bible and latter-day scriptures. The same God that spoke from Siniai and from Heaven at the baptism of Christ. The same God who descended from heaven after his resurrection to the people at the temple and taught them his Gospel. The same God who spoke with Moses and Elijah and the God in the cloud on the Mount of Transfiguration, that is the God who I have faith in. The same God who said that we are saved by grace through faith. My works are imperfect and my faith is imperfect, but if I walk in obedience to the God of the scriptures and revelation, then by his grace I will be saved.

While those organization you mention are doing good, their judgement will be better than the Christians who give lip service to Christ but do not do the things he has commanded.

Since James was writing to members of the church who already knew and undestood the Gospel and were already baptized, then there was no need for him to mention those principles.

But Peter on the Day of Pentecost, was talking to people who were not members, told them when their heart were *****ed and they asked what should they do:

Acts 2: 38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
So when necessary, the leaders of the church do tell the unbelievers to be baptized. So much so that you will not find a dry Christian in all of the book of Acts. But it would be ridiculous for James to tell members of the church who are already baptized to be baptized. They have no need to be baptized again. And since he wasn't writing to them to tell them of the higher things of the Gospel but to correct some misconceptions and misunderstandings they had about faith and works, he doesn't mention the temple ordinances or temple sealings because that is not what he is writing them about.

Every letter is not a complete encyclopedia of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. The letters are for a specific set of points that the author wanted to address. You have to look at the scriptures as a whole and not cherry pick a verse here and/or a verse there an attempt to create a whole doctrine from it. To do so is a sure path to heresy.

Marvin

James Banta

01-10-2012, 10:43 AM

[Russianwolfe;111017]My faith is totally in the God of the Bible and latter-day scriptures. The same God that spoke from Siniai and from Heaven at the baptism of Christ. The same God who descended from heaven after his resurrection to the people at the temple and taught them his Gospel. The same God who spoke with Moses and Elijah and the God in the cloud on the Mount of Transfiguration, that is the God who I have faith in. The same God who said that we are saved by grace through faith. My works are imperfect and my faith is imperfect, but if I walk in obedience to the God of the scriptures and revelation, then by his grace I will be saved.

Is it now? You have faith in the Divine Being that has been GOD from everlasting and will continue as the ONLY GOD to everlasting? You are ready to take hold of the Biblical premise that Jesus (God) made all things visible and invisible. That would include even the subatomic partials that make up atoms that are the building blocks of even the base elements? Yes I know you give your created god the credit for everything that the Eternal God actually did.. That is why I have said that your God id no different than a Garden Gnome set up in my back yard.. I can ascribe all God's works on it too but would it be God? NO!! Neither is the god made up in the mind of Joseph Smith..

While those organization you mention are doing good, their judgement will be better than the Christians who give lip service to Christ but do not do the things he has commanded.

Again you deny the scripture:

Heb 11:6
But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that comes to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
The works of those Godless organization have no effect on the state of their eternal destiny. Either they come to Jesus for forgiveness or they will be cast into the lake of fire.. There is no middle ground.. Such an idea is again from the fertile imagination of Joseph Smith and has NO, ZERO, support in the Bible.. Not even in 1 Cor 15.

Since James was writing to members of the church who already knew and undestood the Gospel and were already baptized, then there was no need for him to mention those principles.

Those same people were taught how to treat their neighbors. The parable of the good Samaritan make the commandment to love our neighbor as ourselves is very clear. That was again a commandment something we do and therefore is something a Christian should do, but has nothing to do with salvation, for salvation is NOT OF WORKS therefore no man can boast.

But Peter on the Day of Pentecost, was talking to people who were not members, told them when their heart were *****ed and they asked what should they do:

I have never spoken against baptism.. It is a Law that a Christian should obey. First it is to simple do do to put off. Then it was commanded by our Lord.. I don't know of any Christian church that denies the ordinance. It is conducted in some form bay all of the sects of the Church. The only question is are works such as baptism required for salvation or it salvation complete in the works of Jesus? The Church teaches that salvation is 100% the work of Jesus (God).. Therefor this p***age to stay true to the Bible that teaches that all who believe should have everlasting life, That all who believe in Him (Jesus) will never die.. must mean that Baptism is given to believers beacuse they have been cleaned by God because of their faith..

So when necessary, the leaders of the church do tell the unbelievers to be baptized. So much so that you will not find a dry Christian in all of the book of Acts. But it would be ridiculous for James to tell members of the church who are already baptized to be baptized. They have no need to be baptized again. And since he wasn't writing to them to tell them of the higher things of the Gospel but to correct some misconceptions and misunderstandings they had about faith and works, he doesn't mention the temple ordinances or temple sealings because that is not what he is writing them about.

The only problem with Paul telling the new believers to be baptized is that they were no longer nonbelievers. To tell a person to obey the commandments is the proper thing for a Church leader to do. Baptism is a commandment so being disobedient to that command would be sin.. Jesus died in order to forgive those who believe on Him of sin! The thing about your "Higher things" is that they are not even mentioned anywhere in all the scripture.. The only temple is all the Christian Church is the believer:

1 Cor 3:16
Know you not that you are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?

The Christian know that God doesn't dwell in temples made with hand:

Acts 7:48
However, the Most High does not dwell in houses made by human hands...

Every letter is not a complete encyclopedia of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. The letters are for a specific set of points that the author wanted to address. You have to look at the scriptures as a whole and not cherry pick a verse here and/or a verse there an attempt to create a whole doctrine from it. To do so is a sure path to heresy.

The Gospel of Jesus is not a set of teachings, an authority to act in his name, a list of Laws, and specific ordinances to be preformed. The Gospel is the story of what God did to save mankind.. It is not what we can or even should do for God.. I have shown you how the whole Bible fits together and stays consistent is it's complete message.. I haven't just pulled out p***ages that speak of our sanctification and made them the Gospel in appose to all that p***age that speak to out salvation by grace though faith and out instant justification though the Blood of Jesus.. That is you doing your best to cherry Pick the word.. I have in turn shown you how they work in showing our need for grace, how they bring us to the cross and faith in Jesus for salvation.. You have not shown ant way that the P***age NOT OF WORKS means you must do good works, and salvation come by the acts of the WORKS of obedience.. IHS jim

Billyray

01-10-2012, 11:46 AM

My faith is totally in the God of the Bible and latter-day scriptures. The same God that spoke from Siniai and from Heaven at the baptism of Christ. The same God who descended from heaven after his resurrection to the people at the temple and taught them his Gospel. The same God who spoke with Moses and Elijah and the God in the cloud on the Mount of Transfiguration, that is the God who I have faith in. The same God who said that we are saved by grace through faith. My works are imperfect and my faith is imperfect, but if I walk in obedience to the God of the scriptures and revelation, then by his grace I will be saved.
Brother Marvin if I didn't know you better and I didn't know what you really believe I would almost think you were a born again Christian from your statement above.

dberrie2000

01-10-2012, 11:52 AM

Originally Posted by Russianwolfe View Post
My faith is totally in the God of the Bible and latter-day scriptures. The same God that spoke from Siniai and from Heaven at the baptism of Christ. The same God who descended from heaven after his resurrection to the people at the temple and taught them his Gospel. The same God who spoke with Moses and Elijah and the God in the cloud on the Mount of Transfiguration, that is the God who I have faith in. The same God who said that we are saved by grace through faith. My works are imperfect and my faith is imperfect, but if I walk in obedience to the God of the scriptures and revelation, then by his grace I will be saved.

Brother Marvin if I didn't know you better and I didn't know what you really believe I would almost think you were a born again Christian from your statement above.

That is because the LDS are born again Christians. But in the truest sense--they believe in being born of water and the Spirit.

Billyray

01-10-2012, 11:56 AM

That is because the LDS are born again Christians. But in the truest sense--they believe in being born of water and the Spirit.

What does born again mean to you?

James Banta

01-10-2012, 11:59 AM

That is because the LDS are born again Christians. But in the truest sense--they believe in being born of water and the Spirit.

Mormonism teaches that they have to "Get wet" and have men lay hands on them.. There is no expedience that the Holy Spirit has come into them.. There are a few LDS that do display gifts of the Holy Spirit but they are few.. In fact it;s hard to say if that is what it is or are many just able speakers and teachers. It is for sure that not one of them acted like Peter after he was filled with the Holy Spirit at Pentecost.. IHS jim

Billyray

02-07-2012, 05:39 PM

That is because the LDS are born again Christians.

Born again Christians don't believe that they work for their salvation.

dberrie2000

02-10-2012, 04:31 AM

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
That is because the LDS are born again Christians. But in the truest sense--they believe in being born of water and the Spirit.

What does born again mean to you?

The same thing that being born of water and of the Spirit meant throughout the NT, and demonstrated by Christ's example:

Matthew3:16--"And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:"

dberrie2000

02-10-2012, 04:34 AM

Born again Christians don't believe that they work for their salvation.

Which is another way of stating that obedience to Jesus Christ has not the first thing to do with salvation in the faith that is alone for salvation theology.

But the Bible teaches that those who obey Jesus Christ are those who receive of His grace unto life:

Hebrews5:9--"And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;"

Indeed--a false doctrine to the faith alone. But the gospel truth, according to the NT.

dberrie2000

02-10-2012, 04:36 AM

Mormonism teaches that they have to "Get wet" and have men lay hands on them..

The LDS teach the same thing the Bible commands:

Acts2:38--"Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."

Something the faith alone deny is even true.

Billyray

02-10-2012, 12:23 PM

The same thing that being born of water and of the Spirit meant throughout the NT, and demonstrated by Christ's example:

So born again means baptism and laying on of hands for the gift of the LDS holy ghost?

dberrie2000

02-12-2012, 07:22 AM

The LDS teach the same thing the Bible commands:

Acts2:38--"Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."

Something the faith alone deny is even true.

So born again means baptism and laying on of hands for the gift of the LDS holy ghost?

Seeing that the faith alone do not even believe that repentance and water baptism is necessary for the forgiveness of sins........your answer has no connection to anything but a diversionary slant.

Why do the faith alone not believe the Biblical scriptures?

Billyray

02-12-2012, 07:25 AM

Why do the faith alone not believe the Biblical scriptures?

I certainly believe the scriptures. Where does the Bible teach that born again equates to water baptism?

dberrie2000

02-12-2012, 09:28 AM

I certainly believe the scriptures. Where does the Bible teach that born again equates to water baptism?

Please post a scripture that states what being born again entails. Since it was a must for all to enter into the kingdom of God--then one must see it everywhere within the scriptures--as it is required for eternal life.

Since it involves water and the Spirit--those scriptures must involve the same: water and the Spirit:

St John3:5--"Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."

I'll start with my scriptures that involve the water and the Spirit:

Matthew3:16--"And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:"

Acts2:38--"Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."

Your turn--please print the scriptures that involve the water and the Spirit that you think John3:5 was referring to. It must involve water and the Spirit.

Billyray

02-12-2012, 09:30 AM

St John3:5--"Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."

This is not speaking about water baptism DB. Is this really the text you are relying on?

dberrie2000

02-12-2012, 10:30 AM

Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
I certainly believe the scriptures. Where does the Bible teach that born again equates to water baptism?

dberrie---Please post a scripture that states what being born again entails. Since it was a must for all to enter into the kingdom of God--then one must see it everywhere within the scriptures--as it is required for eternal life.

Since it involves water and the Spirit--those scriptures must involve the same: water and the Spirit:

St John3:5--"Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."

I'll start with my scriptures that involve the water and the Spirit:

Matthew3:16--"And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:"

Acts2:38--"Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."

Your turn--please print the scriptures that involve the water and the Spirit that you think John3:5 was referring to. It must involve water and the Spirit.

This is not speaking about water baptism DB. Is this really the text you are relying on?

Since you did not give the first quote as to what scripture you are relying on, and found throughout the NT, as the scriptures I quoted are--the question must be asked--what text are you relying on?

Billyray

02-12-2012, 10:33 AM

Since you did not give the first quote as to what scripture you are relying on, and found throughout the NT, as the scriptures I quoted are--the question must be asked--what text are you relying on?
You are the one who claims that born again equates to water baptism so it is your responsibility to substantiate that claim.

dberrie2000

02-12-2012, 06:54 PM

You are the one who claims that born again equates to water baptism so it is your responsibility to substantiate that claim.

Here is my request:

dberrie---Please post a scripture that states what being born again entails. Since it was a must for all to enter into the kingdom of God--then one must see it everywhere within the scriptures--as it is required for eternal life.

Since it involves water and the Spirit--those scriptures must involve the same: water and the Spirit:

St John3:5--"Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."

I'll start with my scriptures that involve the water and the Spirit:

Matthew3:16--"And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:"

Acts2:38--"Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."

Your turn--please print the scriptures that involve the water and the Spirit that you think John3:5 was referring to. It must involve water and the Spirit.

Where is your scripture that relates to being born of water and the Spirit? I have posted mine.

Billyray

02-12-2012, 09:49 PM

dberrie---Please post a scripture that states what being born again entails. Since it was a must for all to enter into the kingdom of God--then one must see it everywhere within the scriptures--as it is required for eternal life.
John 3
4Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

5Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

6That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Born of water in NOT water baptism and evident from these verses. Being born again is spiritual birth.

dberrie2000

02-13-2012, 03:43 AM

dberrie---Please post a scripture that states what being born again entails. Since it was a must for all to enter into the kingdom of God--then one must see it everywhere within the scriptures--as it is required for eternal life.

Since it involves water and the Spirit--those scriptures must involve the same: water and the Spirit:

St John3:5--"Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."

I'll start with my scriptures that involve the water and the Spirit:

Matthew3:16--"And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:"

Acts2:38--"Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."

Your turn--please print the scriptures that involve the water and the Spirit that you think John3:5 was referring to. It must involve water and the Spirit.

John 3
4Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

5Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

6That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Born of water in NOT water baptism and evident from these verses. Being born again is spiritual birth.

Being "born again" forever excludes even the possibility of the fleshly original birth. That was Nicodemus' mistake.

St John3:3--"Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

Billyray

02-13-2012, 08:59 AM

Being "born again" forever excludes even the possibility of the fleshly original birth. That was Nicodemus' mistake.

You are right "born again" doesn't mean physical birth it means a spiritual birth. A person is physically born (born of water) and then spiritually born (born again). And this has nothing to do with water baptism.

BigJulie

02-13-2012, 06:33 PM

You are right "born again" doesn't mean physical birth it means a spiritual birth. A person is physically born (born of water) and then spiritually born (born again). And this has nothing to do with water baptism.

In Hebrew---water represents rebirth. Hence, the flood (a rebirth for the earth), baptism (a rebirth for the spirit), Moses taking the house of Israel through the Red Sea (a rebirth for Israel).

And then of course, we have this verified by the apostles who tell believers to be baptized for remission of their sins.

And then of course, the ultimate example of Christ's baptism. How do you argue away the River Jordon or Christ's baptism through immersion?

So, I guess--Billyray, you once again seem to argue that you do not need to follow Christ in baptism and you can do it your own way---without water.

Billyray

02-13-2012, 06:54 PM

So, I guess--Billyray, you once again seem to argue that you do not need to follow Christ in baptism and you can do it your own way---without water.
John 3
4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

J are you trying to tell me that born of water in context of the surrounding verses is water baptism? Really?

BigJulie

02-13-2012, 07:43 PM

John 3
4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

J are you trying to tell me that born of water in context of the surrounding verses is water baptism? Really?

Absolutely---you have to be blind not to see it. Especially in light that Christ was teaching a Jew who very well knew the meaning of water.

I suppose you seem to think these comments of Christ's have nothing to do with His own baptism, nor the apostles teaching of baptism for the remission of sins. Being born again, then to you, is void of what Christ, the apostles or believers did regarding immersion in water representing their own spiritual rebirth.

Billyray

02-13-2012, 07:48 PM

Absolutely---you have to be blind not to see it.
Lets look at the verse in context

4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

Is this speaking about physical birth or water baptism?

Billyray

02-13-2012, 07:51 PM

Jonn 3 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

"That which is born of the flesh is flesh"

Is this speaking about physical birth or water baptism?

BigJulie

02-13-2012, 08:52 PM

Jonn 3 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

"That which is born of the flesh is flesh"

Is this speaking about physical birth or water baptism?

Yes, you seem to want it to read---that which is born of the water is flesh. That is not what it says.

Billyray

02-13-2012, 08:54 PM

Yes, you seem to want it to read---that which is born of the water is flesh. That is not what it says.

Jonn 3 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Is thus speaking about physical birth or water baptism?

dberrie2000

02-14-2012, 04:13 AM

Jonn 3 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Is thus speaking about physical birth or water baptism?

It's speaking about the difference between Nicodemus' mistake of confusing the fleshly birth of entering the womb a second time, and Christ's being born again, of the water and the Spirit.

Romans6:3-4--"Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

4Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life."

Could you explain for us the connection between the "newness of life", as Paul relates it to water baptism, and Christ's being "born again"?

Billyray

02-14-2012, 06:54 AM

It's speaking about the difference between Nicodemus' mistake of confusing the fleshly birth of entering the womb a second time, and Christ's being born again, of the water and the Spirit.

Jonn 3 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Let me ask you again. Is this talking about physical birth or water baptism?

BigJulie

02-14-2012, 12:14 PM

Jonn 3 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Is thus speaking about physical birth or water baptism?

To say, born of the "flesh" is speaking of physical birth. If Christ himself calls physical birth "flesh" then why would he not call it flesh beforehand?

If you understand Hebrew---then it is because Christ is speaking to someone who knows what water represents to God---or the process of rebirth as given in my examples of the flood, parting the Red Sea, Christ himself being baptized and then the apostles teaching of baptism. Unless you want to argue that Christ was not baptized in water, I am not sure your point other than to look extremely narrow-minded in the symbolism of water and why it is used in baptism.

Billyray

02-14-2012, 12:15 PM

To say, born of the "flesh" is speaking of physical birth. If Christ himself calls physical birth "flesh" then why would he not call it flesh beforehand?

So is "born of flesh" physical birth or water baptism?

BigJulie

02-14-2012, 12:19 PM

So is "born of flesh" physical birth or water baptism?

Billyray, you are not making your point---you are ignoring the many times water is used in Hebrew and exactly what it means. Nicodemus knew this and Christ spoke to him as someone who knows this....this is why when Nicodemus asked him "can I re-enter my mother's womb"--Christ responded "your a master in Israel and do not understand this?" Clearly, Nicodemus knew what baptism was and what it meant.

Billyray

02-14-2012, 04:17 PM

Billyray, you are not making your point---

you are refusing to answer a very simple question. Why is that?

BigJulie

02-14-2012, 04:35 PM

you are refusing to answer a very simple question. Why is that?

I answered your question, that is why (see post #182). But, once answered, you have refused to address that Christ refers to water when discussing spiritual rebirth, not physical rebirth as Nicodemus mistakes and should not have mistaken the meaning of water when it came to the Jews and what it symbolizes.

Billyray

02-14-2012, 06:15 PM

I answered your question, that is why (see post #182).

OK good. Now lets look at all of the verses together

To say, born of the "flesh" is speaking of physical birth.
John 3
4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Looking at these three verses together what does born of water mean in context?

Billyray

02-14-2012, 06:16 PM

But, once answered, you have refused to address that Christ refers to water when discussing spiritual rebirth

I have not refused to answer at all. In context of the surrounding verses born of water means physical birth.

BigJulie

02-14-2012, 09:33 PM

I have not refused to answer at all. In context of the surrounding verses born of water means physical birth.

Well, in the context of Jewish theology, water represents baptism. I guess in your belief system though, Christ was not aware of the past uses of water and its symbolism to the Israelite nation and therefore would use it to mean something entirely different. ;)

Billyray

02-14-2012, 09:36 PM

Well, in the context of Jewish theology, water represents baptism.

So you just flat out ignore what is actually said in the verses. Nice.

BigJulie

02-14-2012, 09:39 PM

So you just flat out ignore what is actually said in the verses. Nice.

Nope---I don't ignore what it says--I just recognize it in the context of who Christ was talking to---a Jew---and that Christ was teaching Him of what it means to be reborn. Christ's line of what is born of the flesh is flesh is to tell Nicodemus that his understanding is wrong. Your correlation to being born of the flesh and being born of the water is strictly wrong. If Christ had meant what you think He said, He would have said---that a man must be born of the flesh and of the spirit---or he would have said that what is born of water is water and spirit is spirit. But He didn't do that for a reason.

Billyray

02-14-2012, 09:40 PM

Nope---I don't ignore what it says--I just recognize it in the context of who Christ was talking to---a Jew---and that Christ was teaching Him of what it means to be reborn.

No you flat out ignore what is said.

Billyray

02-14-2012, 09:41 PM

--and that Christ was teaching Him of what it means to be reborn.

John 3
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

And what does he say about it in this verse?

BigJulie

02-14-2012, 09:43 PM

John 3
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

And what does he say about it in this verse?

Nope---I don't ignore what it says--I just recognize it in the context of who Christ was talking to---a Jew---and that Christ was teaching Him of what it means to be reborn. Christ's line of what is born of the flesh is flesh is to tell Nicodemus that his understanding is wrong. Your correlation to being born of the flesh and being born of the water is strictly wrong. If Christ had meant what you think He said, He would have said---that a man must be born of the flesh and of the spirit---or he would have said that what is born of water is water and spirit is spirit. But He didn't do that for a reason.

I will just keep repeating this I guess.

Billyray

02-14-2012, 09:47 PM

BigJulie

02-15-2012, 07:36 AM

John 3
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

And what does he say about it in this verse?

Back to the hen-pecking, repeated questions. You want to equate being born of the flesh with being born of water---it doesn't say that or Christ would have just used flesh instead of water.

So, once again:

Nope---I don't ignore what it says--I just recognize it in the context of who Christ was talking to---a Jew---and that Christ was teaching Him of what it means to be reborn. Christ's line of what is born of the flesh is flesh is to tell Nicodemus that his understanding is wrong. Your correlation to being born of the flesh and being born of the water is strictly wrong. If Christ had meant what you think He said, He would have said---that a man must be born of the flesh and of the spirit---or he would have said that what is born of water is water and spirit is spirit. But He didn't do that for a reason.

So, I guess for you---because of the way you interpret this---when the apostles told their converts to "repent and be baptized" that this was not because of something Christ taught---but because they sucked it out of their thumb. Okay.

Billyray

02-15-2012, 09:25 AM

Back to the hen-pecking, repeated questions. You want to equate being born of the flesh with being born of water---it doesn't say that or Christ would have just used flesh instead of water.

John 3
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

And what does he say about it in this verse?

Billyray

02-15-2012, 09:27 AM

Why do you think Christ says "born AGAIN"?

BigJulie

02-15-2012, 09:45 AM

Why do you think Christ says "born AGAIN"?

Well, it you read it through---he refers to the spirit as "wind" (also a common Jewish symbol) and that we only know where it is when it russles through the trees--but it started before it hit the trees and will go on after it hits the trees. And Christ says "Jhn 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, [even] the Son of man which is in heaven."

The fall is a spiritual death and as such, what Christ is speaking of it being "spiritually born again" as we spiritually died when we fell (as Adam did). Likewise, we will be physically born again during the resurrection.

So---according to this scripture:

2Ki 2:11 And it came to p***, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, [there appeared] a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

Did Elijah come down from heaven?

Billyray

02-15-2012, 10:01 AM

The fall is a spiritual death and as such, what Christ is speaking of it being "spiritually born again"

No he is not. In context we are physically born and then spiritually born (born again).

John 3
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

BigJulie

02-15-2012, 01:05 PM

No he is not. In context we are physically born and then spiritually born (born again).

John 3
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Nope---you are making the same mistake Nicodemus made. Interesting that you don't see the correction.

So, why do you think the apostles taught to be baptized? Where did they come up with the idea?

Billyray

02-15-2012, 01:15 PM

Nope---you are making the same mistake Nicodemus made. Interesting that you don't see the correction.

You are completely ignoring the text J.

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Born of flesh = physical birth

Born of spirit = spiritual birth (born again)

BigJulie

02-15-2012, 01:23 PM

You are completely ignoring the text J.

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Born of flesh = physical birth

Born of spirit = spiritual birth (born again)

Yes, but Christ didn't say to Nicodemus that we needed to be born of the flesh---in fact---kind of a rediculous statement really--he said that we needed to be born of water (notice, he didn't say flesh).

Billyray

02-15-2012, 01:26 PM

Yes, but Christ didn't say to Nicodemus that we needed to be born of the flesh---in fact---kind of a rediculous statement really--he said that we needed to be born of water (notice, he didn't say flesh).
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Which is what he said in verse 6

BigJulie

02-15-2012, 01:32 PM

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Which is what he said in verse 6

NOTICE he did not say that which is born of the water is flesh or that which is born of the water is water. So, your correlation does not work. He is basically saying---Nicodemus you are wrong to think I am addressing being born again physically--I am talking about being born again spiritually and then goes into the lecture regarding the spirit and the wind and says ""Jhn 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, [even] the Son of man which is in heaven."

So, you never answered my question---regarding this scripture and what Christ taught:

2Ki 2:11 And it came to p***, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, [there appeared] a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

Did Elijah come down from heaven?

When we talk about the FALL of Adam, what did He fall from? To fall means to drop---where did he drop from, where was he before that he came down from?

Billyray

02-15-2012, 01:35 PM

He is basically saying---Nicodemus you are wrong to think I am addressing being born again physically--
When you were born the first time was it physically or spiritually?

BigJulie

02-15-2012, 01:36 PM

When you were born the first time was it physically or spiritually?

Spiritually as explained by Christ to Nicodemus.

Billyray

02-15-2012, 01:37 PM

--I am talking about being born again spiritually. . .

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

And it tells us how we are born again spiritually, "that which is born of the Spirit is spirit". This has nothing to do with water baptism.

Billyray

02-15-2012, 01:38 PM

Spiritually as explained by Christ to Nicodemus.

So your first birth was spiritual birth? When was that exactly?

BigJulie

02-15-2012, 01:45 PM

So your first birth was spiritual birth? When was that exactly?

Before I came to earth:

Gen 2:1 ¶ Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.

Gen 2:4 ¶ These [are] the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,

Gen 2:5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and [there was] not a man to till the ground.

So, how is it that God made every plant "BEFORE" it was on the earth? Or every herb "before" it grew?

Billyray

02-15-2012, 02:25 PM

Before I came to earth:

And when did YOU spiritually die?

J you can try and twist the text all that you want but anyone who is open to the truth will simply see that you are completely ignoring the text so that you can maintain your preconceived theology.

akaSeerone

02-15-2012, 03:32 PM

Spiritually as explained by Christ to Nicodemus.How about giving us the exact words. I do not recall Jesus saying anything of the kind to Nicodemus.

Brother Andrew

BigJulie

02-15-2012, 06:55 PM

How about giving us the exact words. I do not recall Jesus saying anything of the kind to Nicodemus.

Brother Andrew

Christ explains that a man must be born again before he can enter the kingdom of God. Nicodemus wrongly thinks that this means that a man must re-enter his mother's womb in order to accomplish this. Christ explains that he is speaking of not a physical rebirth, but a spiritual one. He then explains that the spirit is like the wind (a common Hebrew symbol for a spirit) and that when the wind hits the trees, you know it is there because the trees russle, but the wind began before it hit the trees and will go on after it hits the trees.

This is a great explanation to explain our spirits by Christ. We know that when our spirits leave our bodies, the body is dead (as the trees no longer russle) but the spirit moves on. But likewise, the spirit (or wind) was alive before it hit something physical (the trees/body). Christ then explains that no man ascends to heaven who hasn't come down from heaven first ---even Himself.

Well, to the Jew--they should be not only familiar with the symbolism of the wind for the spirit, but they should be familiar with water as a symbol of rebirth as happened with the flood for the earth or with the parting of the Red Sea for the Israelites. They should also be aware the Elijah was taken up into heaven by a whirlwind (think about the cool symbolism there.)

So, Nicodemus should have no difficulty understanding what Christ was saying regarding baptism and why Christ was baptized or what it symbolizes.

Now, you might ask--when did we spirituallly die? Well, spiritual death is what happens when we "fall"---the fall of Adam meant that he left God's presence. This fall meant death to Adam. When ever we are not in the presence of God, we die. Our lives might be extended, but death (both spiritual and physical) is our lot in life.

So, when are we physically reborn? When we are resurrected. This is a free gift to all men from Christ.

When are we spiritually reborn? When we accept God back into our lives--which Christ teaches us we do spiritually and we symbolize physically with baptism.

Christ's purpose is to bring us back to life both physically and spiritually. Hence, if anyone is really paying attention---anything Christ's asks us to do spiritually--he connects to something we do physically. This is why we have things such as baptism and the sacrament. Christ doesn't pretend we are spiritual being without physical bodies--as the salvation of both together are important to Him.

Billyray

02-15-2012, 07:56 PM

Now, you might ask--when did we spirituallly die?

So we are spiritually born--then we spiritually died--then we are spiritually reborn.

Wow. You really pulled that one out of your hat J.

Billyray

02-15-2012, 08:02 PM

Christ explains that a man must be born again before he can enter the kingdom of God.

So far so good J.

Nicodemus wrongly thinks that this means that a man must re-enter his mother's womb in order to accomplish this.

Right

Christ explains that he is speaking of not a physical rebirth, but a spiritual one.

Almost right. Christ is speaking about a spiritual birth NOT a spiritual rebirth.

John 3
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh (physical birth); and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit (spiritual birth or born again).

dberrie2000

02-20-2012, 07:00 AM

---Almost right. Christ is speaking about a spiritual birth NOT a spiritual rebirth.

Being born again forever excludes that possibility.

St John3:3--"Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

John 3
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh (physical birth); and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit (spiritual birth or born again).

Again--being born again excludes any possibility of Christ referring to the physical birth--that was Nicodemus' mistake.

The statement of Christ concerning "born again" is demonstrated by Christ's statement of specifics:

St John3:5--"Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."

Christ did not divide His statement into a physical and a Spiritual. Being born again was a spiritual event--both the water and the Spirit.

Your reference in St John3:6 is to the difference between Christ's reference of being born again, found in v3---and Nicodemus' mistake of relating that to the physical birth:

St John3:4--"Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? "

I have challenged you and those on this forum to please post some scriptural reference to any event that involves both the water and the Spirit, and was taught and commanded for salvation throughout the Bible--you have not produced the first one. Please allow me to help you:

Matthew3:16--"And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:"

Jesus Christ was the Way for all mankind to enter life.

Billyray

02-21-2012, 05:02 PM

Again--being born again excludes any possibility of Christ referring to the physical birth--that was Nicodemus' mistake.

Born again doesn't mean physical birth, it means spiritual birth. A person is physically born (born of water) and born again (spiritual birth).

Billyray

02-21-2012, 05:04 PM

I have challenged you and those on this forum to please post some scriptural reference to any event that involves both the water and the Spirit, and was taught and commanded for salvation throughout the Bible-

John 3:3-5

dberrie2000

05-28-2012, 08:43 PM

Born again doesn't mean physical birth, it means spiritual birth. A person is physically born (born of water) and born again (spiritual birth).

Then could you explain why the faith alone ***ign a physical birth to the born again equation?

St John3:5--"Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."

You do think the water part means a physical birth--right?

Billyray--both components of v5--the water and the Spirit--are part of being born again. Christ did not break His born again equasion into a physical part and a Spiritual part--they were both parts of a spiritual rebirth.

That was Nicodemus' mistake--believing that Christ was referring to a physical birth.

Christ was referring to a spiritual one--which involved both water and the Spirit:

Matthew3:16--"And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:"

Being born again.

Paul reinforced that:

Romans6:3-6--"Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:"

See any connection between born again and "newness of life"? That baptism was related to this "newness of life"?

Billyray

05-28-2012, 09:19 PM

Then could you explain why the faith alone ***ign a physical birth to the born again equation?

Sure. Because in context to the surrounding born again means being physically born. There is no mention whatsoever of water baptism in these verse.

dberrie2000

05-28-2012, 09:55 PM

Originally Posted by dberrie2000
Then could you explain why the faith alone ***ign a physical birth to the born again equation?

Sure. Because in context to the surrounding born again means being physically born. There is no mention whatsoever of water baptism in these verse.

Hummm. Could you contrast that to your previous answer?

Originally Posted by Billyray
Born again doesn't mean physical birth, it means spiritual birth

Billyray

05-28-2012, 09:56 PM

Hummm. Could you contrast that to your previous answer?
That was an error. Born again means spiritual birth. Born of water means physical birth.

dberrie2000

06-02-2012, 06:47 AM

Originally Posted by Billyray
Sure. Because in context to the surrounding born again means being physically born. There is no mention whatsoever of water baptism in these verse.

dberrie----Hummm. Could you contrast that to your previous answer?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Billyray
Born again doesn't mean physical birth, it means spiritual birth

That was an error. Born again means spiritual birth. Born of water means physical birth.

What part of Christ's born again statement--is not a spiritual rebirth:

St John3:5--"Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."

Where is your scripture that demonstrates this being born again process? Here is mine:

Matthew3:16--"And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:"

Being born of water and of the Spirit.

Please post your scripture that demonstrates being born of water and of the Spirit--because one must see it throughout the scriptures, as no one could enter heaven without it.

Billyray

06-02-2012, 08:24 AM

What part of Christ's born again statement--is not a spiritual rebirth:

St John3:5--"Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."

Born of water is not spiritual rebirth.

dberrie2000

06-02-2012, 08:29 AM

Originally Posted by dberrie2000
What part of Christ's born again statement--is not a spiritual rebirth:

St John3:5--"Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."

Born of water is not spiritual rebirth.

So--when Christ states unless a man is born of water and the Spirit--they cannot enter into heaven--only half of that is spiritual rebirth?

Billyray

06-02-2012, 08:39 AM

So--when Christ states unless a man is born of water and the Spirit--they cannot enter into heaven--only half of that is spiritual rebirth?

Born of water = physical birth

Born of the spirit = spiritual birth

dberrie2000

06-02-2012, 09:19 AM

Originally Posted by dberrie2000
So--when Christ states unless a man is born of water and the Spirit--they cannot enter into heaven--only half of that is spiritual rebirth?

Born of water = physical birth

Born of the spirit = spiritual birth

Again--that places only half of Christ's being born of water and of the Spirit as a spiritual rebirth.

Was Paul wrong also? :

Romans6:3-4--"Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life."

When Paul referred to water baptism to our walk in the newness of life--how do you relate that to being "Born Again"?

Billyray

06-02-2012, 09:24 AM

Again--that places only half of Christ's being born of water and of the Spirit as a spiritual rebirth.

Because spiritual birth is not being born of water.

dberrie2000

06-02-2012, 10:56 AM

dberrie---Again--that places only half of Christ's being born of water and of the Spirit as a spiritual rebirth.

Was Paul wrong also? :

Romans6:3-4--"Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life."

When Paul referred to water baptism to our walk in the newness of life--how do you relate that to being "Born Again"?

Because spiritual birth is not being born of water.

Justin Martyr

"As many as are persuaded and believe that what we [Christians] teach and say is true, and undertake to be able to live accordingly, and instructed to pray and to entreat God with fasting, for the remission of their sins that are past, we pray and fast with them. Then they are brought by us where there is water and are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated. For, in the name of God, the Father . . . and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit [Matt. 28:19], they then receive the washing with water. For Christ also said, ‘Unless you are born again, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven’ [John 3:3]" (First Apology 61 [A.D. 151]).

Irenaeus

"‘And [Naaman] dipped himself . . . seven times in the Jordan’ [2 Kgs. 5:14]. It was not for nothing that Naaman of old, when suffering from leprosy, was purified upon his being baptized, but [this served] as an indication to us. For as we are lepers in sin, we are made clean, by means of the sacred water and the invocation of the Lord, from our old transgressions, being spiritually regenerated as newborn babes, even as the Lord has declared: ‘Except a man be born again through water and the Spirit, he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven’" (Fragment 34 [A.D. 190]).

Tertullian

"[N]o one can attain salvation without baptism, especially in view of the declaration of the Lord, who says, ‘Unless a man shall be born of water, he shall not have life’" (Baptism 12:1 [A.D. 203]).

Hippolytus

"The Father of immortality sent the immortal Son and Word into the world, who came to man in order to wash him with water and the Spirit; and he, begetting us again to incorruption of soul and body, breathed into us the Spirit of life, and endued us with an incorruptible panoply. If, therefore, man has become immortal, he will also be God. And if he is made God by water and the Holy Spirit after the regeneration of the laver he is found to be also joint-heir with Christ after the resurrection from the dead. Wherefore I preach to this effect: Come, all ye kindreds of the nations, to the immortality of the baptism" (Discourse on the Holy Theophany 8 [A.D. 217]).

The Recognitions of Clement

"But you will perhaps say, ‘What does the baptism of water contribute toward the worship of God?’ In the first place, because that which has pleased God is fulfilled. In the second place, because when you are regenerated and born again of water and of God, the frailty of your former birth, which you have through men, is cut off, and so . . . you shall be able to attain salvation; but otherwise it is impossible. For thus has the true prophet [Jesus] testified to us with an oath: ‘Verily, I say to you, that unless a man is born again of water . . . he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven’" (The Recognitions of Clement 6:9 [A.D. 221]).

Cyprian of Carthage

"[When] they receive also the baptism of the Church . . . then finally can they be fully sanctified and be the sons of God . . . since it is written, ‘Except a man be born again of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God’" (Letters 71[72]:1 [A.D. 253]).

Council of Carthage VII

"And in the gospel our Lord Jesus Christ spoke with his divine voice, saying, ‘Except a man be born again of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.’ . . . Unless therefore they receive saving baptism in the Catholic Church, which is one, they cannot be saved, but will be condemned with the carnal in the judgment of the Lord Christ" (Seventh Carthage [A.D. 256]).

Cyril of Jerusalem

"Since man is of a twofold nature, composed of body and soul, the purification also is twofold: the corporeal for the corporeal and the incorporeal for the incorporeal. The water cleanses the body, and the Spirit seals the soul. . . . When you go down into the water, then, regard not simply the water, but look for salvation through the power of the Spirit. For without both you cannot attain to perfection. It is not I who says this, but the Lord Jesus Christ, who has the power in this matter. And he says, ‘Unless a man be born again,’ and he adds the words ‘of water and of the Spirit,’ ‘he cannot enter the kingdom of God.’ He that is baptized with water, but is not found worthy of the Spirit, does not receive the grace in perfection. Nor, if a man be virtuous in his deeds, but does not receive the seal by means of the water, shall he enter the kingdom of heaven. A bold saying, but not mine; for it is Jesus who has declared it" (Catechetical Lectures 3:4 [A.D. 350]).

Athanasius

"[A]s we are all from earth and die in Adam, so being regenerated from above of water and Spirit, in the Christ we are all quickened" (Four Discourses Against the Arians 3:26[33] [A.D. 360]).

John Chrysostom

"[N]o one can enter into the kingdom of heaven except he be regenerated through water and the Spirit, and he who does not eat the flesh of the Lord and drink his blood is excluded from eternal life, and if all these things are accomplished only by means of those holy hands, I mean the hands of the priest, how will any one, without these, be able to escape the fire of hell, or to win those crowns which are reserved for the victorious? These [priests] truly are they who are entrusted with the pangs of spiritual travail and the birth which comes through baptism: by their means we put on Christ, and are buried with the Son of God, and become members of that blessed head [the Mystical Body of Christ]" (The Priesthood 3:5–6 [A.D. 387]).

The Apostolic Cons***utions

"Be ye likewise contented with one baptism alone, that which is into the death of the Lord [Rom. 6:3; Col. 2:12–13]. . . . [H]e that out of contempt will not be baptized shall be condemned as an unbeliever and shall be reproached as ungrateful and foolish. For the Lord says, ‘Except a man be baptized of water and of the Spirit, he shall by no means enter into the kingdom of heaven.’ And again, ‘He that believes and is baptized shall be saved, but he that believes not shall be ****ed’" [Mark 16:16] (Apostolic Cons***utions 6:3:15 [A.D. 400]).

Billyray

06-02-2012, 10:59 AM

Justin Martyr

Do you really think that I take my beliefs from non scriptural sources?

Born of water = physical birth

Born of the spirit = spiritual birth

Now can you show me that this is wrong from the Bible?

dberrie2000

06-02-2012, 11:56 AM

Originally Posted by Billyray
Because spiritual birth is not being born of water.

dberrie----Justin Martyr

"As many as are persuaded and believe that what we [Christians] teach and say is true, and undertake to be able to live accordingly, and instructed to pray and to entreat God with fasting, for the remission of their sins that are past, we pray and fast with them. Then they are brought by us where there is water and are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated. For, in the name of God, the Father . . . and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit [Matt. 28:19], they then receive the washing with water. For Christ also said, ‘Unless you are born again, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven’ [John 3:3]" (First Apology 61 [A.D. 151]).

Irenaeus

"‘And [Naaman] dipped himself . . . seven times in the Jordan’ [2 Kgs. 5:14]. It was not for nothing that Naaman of old, when suffering from leprosy, was purified upon his being baptized, but [this served] as an indication to us. For as we are lepers in sin, we are made clean, by means of the sacred water and the invocation of the Lord, from our old transgressions, being spiritually regenerated as newborn babes, even as the Lord has declared: ‘Except a man be born again through water and the Spirit, he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven’" (Fragment 34 [A.D. 190]).

Tertullian

"[N]o one can attain salvation without baptism, especially in view of the declaration of the Lord, who says, ‘Unless a man shall be born of water, he shall not have life’" (Baptism 12:1 [A.D. 203]).

Hippolytus

"The Father of immortality sent the immortal Son and Word into the world, who came to man in order to wash him with water and the Spirit; and he, begetting us again to incorruption of soul and body, breathed into us the Spirit of life, and endued us with an incorruptible panoply. If, therefore, man has become immortal, he will also be God. And if he is made God by water and the Holy Spirit after the regeneration of the laver he is found to be also joint-heir with Christ after the resurrection from the dead. Wherefore I preach to this effect: Come, all ye kindreds of the nations, to the immortality of the baptism" (Discourse on the Holy Theophany 8 [A.D. 217]).

The Recognitions of Clement

"But you will perhaps say, ‘What does the baptism of water contribute toward the worship of God?’ In the first place, because that which has pleased God is fulfilled. In the second place, because when you are regenerated and born again of water and of God, the frailty of your former birth, which you have through men, is cut off, and so . . . you shall be able to attain salvation; but otherwise it is impossible. For thus has the true prophet [Jesus] testified to us with an oath: ‘Verily, I say to you, that unless a man is born again of water . . . he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven’" (The Recognitions of Clement 6:9 [A.D. 221]).

Cyprian of Carthage

"[When] they receive also the baptism of the Church . . . then finally can they be fully sanctified and be the sons of God . . . since it is written, ‘Except a man be born again of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God’" (Letters 71[72]:1 [A.D. 253]).

Council of Carthage VII

"And in the gospel our Lord Jesus Christ spoke with his divine voice, saying, ‘Except a man be born again of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.’ . . . Unless therefore they receive saving baptism in the Catholic Church, which is one, they cannot be saved, but will be condemned with the carnal in the judgment of the Lord Christ" (Seventh Carthage [A.D. 256]).

Cyril of Jerusalem

"Since man is of a twofold nature, composed of body and soul, the purification also is twofold: the corporeal for the corporeal and the incorporeal for the incorporeal. The water cleanses the body, and the Spirit seals the soul. . . . When you go down into the water, then, regard not simply the water, but look for salvation through the power of the Spirit. For without both you cannot attain to perfection. It is not I who says this, but the Lord Jesus Christ, who has the power in this matter. And he says, ‘Unless a man be born again,’ and he adds the words ‘of water and of the Spirit,’ ‘he cannot enter the kingdom of God.’ He that is baptized with water, but is not found worthy of the Spirit, does not receive the grace in perfection. Nor, if a man be virtuous in his deeds, but does not receive the seal by means of the water, shall he enter the kingdom of heaven. A bold saying, but not mine; for it is Jesus who has declared it" (Catechetical Lectures 3:4 [A.D. 350]).

Athanasius

"[A]s we are all from earth and die in Adam, so being regenerated from above of water and Spirit, in the Christ we are all quickened" (Four Discourses Against the Arians 3:26[33] [A.D. 360]).

John Chrysostom

"[N]o one can enter into the kingdom of heaven except he be regenerated through water and the Spirit, and he who does not eat the flesh of the Lord and drink his blood is excluded from eternal life, and if all these things are accomplished only by means of those holy hands, I mean the hands of the priest, how will any one, without these, be able to escape the fire of hell, or to win those crowns which are reserved for the victorious? These [priests] truly are they who are entrusted with the pangs of spiritual travail and the birth which comes through baptism: by their means we put on Christ, and are buried with the Son of God, and become members of that blessed head [the Mystical Body of Christ]" (The Priesthood 3:5–6 [A.D. 387]).

The Apostolic Cons***utions

"Be ye likewise contented with one baptism alone, that which is into the death of the Lord [Rom. 6:3; Col. 2:12–13]. . . . [H]e that out of contempt will not be baptized shall be condemned as an unbeliever and shall be reproached as ungrateful and foolish. For the Lord says, ‘Except a man be baptized of water and of the Spirit, he shall by no means enter into the kingdom of heaven.’ And again, ‘He that believes and is baptized shall be saved, but he that believes not shall be ****ed’" [Mark 16:16] (Apostolic Cons***utions 6:3:15 [A.D. 400]).

Do you really think that I take my beliefs from non scriptural sources?

Yes.

And I believe it is a mistake to deny what the Early Church Fathers have to say on this subject--especially since they all agree. Even Martin Luther--the so called Father of Protestantism, agreed that without water baptism--one could not be saved.

Billyray

06-02-2012, 12:10 PM

Yes.

I don't so you are wrong as usual.

Billyray

06-02-2012, 12:10 PM

Born of water = physical birth

Born of the spirit = spiritual birth

Now can you show me that this is wrong from the Bible?
Bump for DB

dberrie2000

06-02-2012, 12:46 PM

Originally Posted by Billyray
Do you really think that I take my beliefs from non scriptural sources?

dberrie---Yes.

[QUOTE=Billyray;127956]I don't so you are wrong as usual.

You have done poorly in defending your positions. They are not Biblical--they are rationalized in the form of prescriptive and descriptive explanations.

Billyray

06-02-2012, 12:47 PM

Billyray
Do you really think that I take my beliefs from non scriptural sources?

dberrie---Yes.

Why don't you prove that I take my doctrine from non scriptural sources like you claim.

BigJulie

06-02-2012, 12:48 PM

Do you really think that I take my beliefs from non scriptural sources?

Billyray--often when I ask you the hard questions, you go to non-scriptural sources to answer me.

Billyray

06-02-2012, 12:58 PM

Billyray--often when I ask you the hard questions, you go to non-scriptural sources to answer me.

Are you going to prove your claim that my theology comes from non scriptural sources or not?

BigJulie

06-02-2012, 01:01 PM

Are you going to prove your claim that my theology comes from non scriptural sources or not?

Scripturally, the word for water in Hebrew recognizes a rebirth such as with Noah and the flood and with the Israelites as they p***ed through the Red Sea. We have discussed this before---you seem to ignore it.

We also know that Christ was baptized by water.

We also know that the apostles taught to repent and be baptized.

I am not sure why you think you can dissect being "born of the water and the spirit" to mean something different.

Billyray

06-02-2012, 01:04 PM

Scripturally, the word for water in Hebrew recognizes a rebirth such as with Noah and the flood and with the Israelites as they p***ed through the Red Sea. We have discussed this before---you seem to ignore it.

But we were talking about the p***age in John 3. How about showing me in John 3 where it speaks about water baptism.

Billyray

06-02-2012, 01:05 PM

We also know that the apostles taught to repent and be baptized.

But you realize that born of the spirit does not mean water baptism.

BigJulie

06-02-2012, 01:06 PM

But you realize that born of the spirit does not mean water baptism.

Billyray----you are trying to disect this one scripture when clearly there is a precedent set by Christ Himself. Why do you argue against it so?

Billyray

06-02-2012, 01:07 PM

Billyray----you are trying to disect this one scripture when clearly there is a precedent set by Christ Himself. Why do you argue against it so?
Christ doesn't say that water baptism is born of the spirit in John 3.

BigJulie

06-02-2012, 01:08 PM

Christ doesn't say that water baptism is born of the spirit in John 3.

He shouldn't have to---He showed you by His example. If you can't understand His words after He showed you His actions, then look to His example of His actions.

dberrie2000

06-02-2012, 01:08 PM

But you realize that born of the spirit does not mean water baptism.

But that is also connected in the scriptures to repentance and water baptism:

Acts2:38--"Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."

Billyray

06-02-2012, 01:10 PM

But that is also connected in the scriptures to repentance and water baptism:

But they are not the same. Water baptism is water baptism. Born of the spirit is born of the spirit or born again. And you have yet to show me water baptism in John 3.

Billyray

06-02-2012, 01:11 PM

But that is also connected in the scriptures to repentance and water baptism:

Acts2:38--"Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."

Do you believe someone has to be baptized in order to recieve the Holy Spirit?

BigJulie

06-02-2012, 01:11 PM

But they are not the same. Water baptism is water baptism. Born of the spirit is born of the spirit or born again. And you have yet to show me water baptism in John 3.

Billyray----does it ever occur to you that in order to make your point---you must actively ask us to ignore Christ's example, the early church teachings and other teachings in the Bible?

Billyray

06-02-2012, 01:15 PM

---you must actively ask us to ignore Christ's example

Christ lived under the law does that mean that you follow Christ's example and live under the law?

dberrie2000

06-02-2012, 01:17 PM

Originally Posted by Billyray
But you realize that born of the spirit does not mean water baptism.

dberrie---But that is also connected in the scriptures to repentance and water baptism:

Acts2:38--"Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."

But they are not the same.

I didn't state they were the same--I stated they were connected in the scriptures.

Water baptism is water baptism. Born of the spirit is born of the spirit or born again. And you have yet to show me water baptism in John 3.

One cannot show anything that the other refuses to accept.

That all the Early Church Fathers agree that it was talking about water batism as to St John3:5 is a powerful witness.

Billyray--your lone witness is nothing to theirs. Some of them were taught at the feet of the living apostles of that day--to pit yourself against them is nothing but pride.

They all agree, Billyray--the "water" in St John 3:5 was water baptism.

And there witness has a second damming witness to yours--they testified that it was the point of regeneration--and that none could enter into the kingdom of heaven without it.

Sorry--but your request to prove to you something that you already have your mind made up about is nothing to their witness--puny, indeed.