View Full Version : Watch How Easy This Is
The question posed by a critic (keeping names anonymous to avoid issues):
"If you knew for sure that God was speaking to you and God asked you to take out your wife into the backyard and sacrifice her would you do it?"
My simple, direct, and succinct answer is YES!
Why was that so easy? Because we are making the condition that the person in the question is truly very God. So for me, no matter what God says or asks, I will follow and obey.
What would your answer be?
neverending has informed me taht nobody is going to touch this thread.
That's fine if true.
But I think that the reason that might be is simply because the only truthful answer might cause cognitive dissonance in some.
Billyray
01-22-2012, 01:17 PM
The question posed by a critic (keeping names anonymous to avoid issues):
"If you knew for sure that God was speaking to you and God asked you to take out your wife into the backyard and sacrifice her would you do it?"
My simple, direct, and succinct answer is YES!
Why was that so easy? Because we are making the condition that the person in the question is truly very God. So for me, no matter what God says or asks, I will follow and obey.
What would your answer be?
Why do you think that God would command you to do something that goes against what he given for the NT church?
Why do you think that God would command you to do something that goes against what he given for the NT church?
Why do you think you know better than God?
God made laws for men, not men for laws. In the OT God had no problem asking someone to sacrifice his son.
If your position is God cannot go against what He gave in the NT, then it doesn't follow considering what he gave in the NT goes against what he gave in the OT.
But if God is God, and His ways are always just and perfect, who are you to tell him he is wrong?
Billyray
01-22-2012, 01:23 PM
Why do you think you know better than God?
Nope I don't think I am better than God and I don't even think I will become a god like you do.
Billyray
01-22-2012, 01:24 PM
God made laws for men, not men for laws. In the OT God had no problem asking someone to sacrifice his son.
Why would God give you a command that goes against what he has taught you in the NT?
Nope I don't think I am better than God and I don't even think I will become a god like you do.
Zing!....Pow!.....Wap.....bam!......Zoink!.....
Aside from the obligatory cheap shot you are compelled to make, Why did you chop my post and not answer my last question?
Billyray
01-22-2012, 01:26 PM
But if God is God, and His ways are always just and perfect, who are you to tell him he is wrong?
I certainly wouldn't tell him he is wrong.
Why would God give you a command that goes against what he has taught you in the NT?
Or....you can completely ignore what has been said here already and simply repeat the same questions over and over....which is your MO.
So be it.
I certainly wouldn't tell him he is wrong.
Great.
Case closed.
Billyray
01-22-2012, 01:34 PM
Great.
Case closed.
The problem with this question (which was my question from another thread) is that it falsely ***umes that God would ask us to do something that he has already told us not to do in the NT. So on the one hand we obey God but on the other hand we disobey his command not to kill.
Let me give you another similar question. If God told you to reject him would you do it?
Billyray
01-22-2012, 01:37 PM
Do you believe that Warren Jeffs believes that God speaks to him and gives him revelations and Warren honestly believes that it is God who is speaking to him?
Do you believe that Warren Jeffs believes that God speaks to him and gives him revelations and Warren honestly believes that it is God who is speaking to him?
Ah ah ah (finger wag), now you are doing what keeps being done. You are now CHANGING this to be "if you thought it was God" as opposed to the standard that we set that it IS God, no questions about that.
The problem with this question (which was my question from another thread) is that it falsely ***umes that God would ask us to do something that he has already told us not to do in the NT. So on the one hand we obey God but on the other hand we disobey his command not to kill.
You still haven't address the fact that God HAS commanded someone to kill, and that God has also commanded that we NOT kill.
Address that and you might understand your dilemma here.
Let me give you another similar question. If God told you to reject him would you do it?
That's not similar.
Show me anywhere in scripture where God has commanded that we REJECT him?
Billyray
01-22-2012, 01:48 PM
You still haven't address the fact that God HAS commanded someone to kill, and that God has also commanded that we NOT kill.
In the OT absolutely. But we are under the NT rules and Christ does not command us to kill. So you are giving a scenario that God would never give us.
For example If God told you to reject him and worship the Devil would you do it?
Billyray
01-22-2012, 01:49 PM
That's not similar.
Show me anywhere in scripture where God has commanded that we REJECT him?
Show me anywhere in the NT where God has commanded us to kill a wife or child as a sacrifice to him.
In the OT absolutely. But we are under the NT rules and Christ does not command us to kill. So you are giving a scenario that God would never give us.
So God's laws and rules change.
So if God himself asked us to sacrifice someone, how would you know which rule to follow? He has set a precedent that he can allow or not allow that.
See your dilemma here?
For example If God told you to reject him and worship the Devil would you do it?
Show me scriptural precedent where God has commanded to both ACCEPT him and REJECT the Devil and to also REJECT God and ACCEPT the Devil.
Can you?
Show me anywhere in the NT where God has commanded us to kill a wife or child as a sacrifice to him.
I see.
you are purposely ignoring the parts of my post that completely refute and demolish your argument.
Why do you ignore the OT?
Why do you ignore that God has commanded the killing of people before?
Why do you refuse to reconcile how God can both command killings and forbid killings?
You could always admit your error.
Or you can continue to show the obtuseness of your position for all to see.
Even in another thread you just posted:
Psalm 115
3 Our God is in heaven; he does whatever pleases him.
Doy yo yoing...... (ala Russ) :p
Billyray
01-22-2012, 01:57 PM
So God's laws and rules change.
God's rules for man have changed over time. Before Moses they were not under the Law. Under Moses they were under the Law. After the death of Christ we are not under the Law.
Billyray
01-22-2012, 01:59 PM
See your dilemma here?
Not at all. Starting with the death of Christ we are under the law of love, we are to love God and love our neighbor. If we loved our neighbor then we would not kill them.
Billyray
01-22-2012, 02:00 PM
Why do you ignore the OT?
I don't ignore it but we are not under the OT rules and regulations. I ***umed that you knew that.
Billyray
01-22-2012, 02:03 PM
You see this whole line of questioning by you and theway is to provide a rationalization to justify your false beliefs. This is no different than what Warren Jeffs is doing today. He is claiming revelation from God and implementing new actions because God is telling him to do this and who could refuse what God tells him to do.
I don't ignore it but we are not under the OT rules and regulations. I ***umed that you knew that.
But you just got writing in another thread:
'God is the boss and he makes the rules so it is not wrong for him to allow people to die during the flood"
So you are saying that God, who makes the rules, can change them in the NT, but he cannot change them again if he wanted?
See the problem with Bibliolatrists? They believe God can change the rules and laws from OT to NT, but if he asked someone to do something that was okay in the OT, he cannot...or would not....or......something. Apparently you have boxed God into a NT box.
God's rules for man have changed over time. Before Moses they were not under the Law. Under Moses they were under the Law. After the death of Christ we are not under the Law.
The question isn't if we are under the law.
The simply question is if God himself asked you to do something would you.
I say YES.
You say, "Well, God, you said it was okay in the OT but then changed your own law in the NT, and well, I cannot obey your commend of me now since it conflicts with the law you gave in the NT but not the law you gave in the OT".
ROFL....
It's funny you simply cannot admit your failed position here.
Not at all. Starting with the death of Christ we are under the law of love, we are to love God and love our neighbor. If we loved our neighbor then we would not kill them.
That wasn't the question.
You see this whole line of questioning by you and theway is to provide a rationalization to justify your false beliefs. This is no different than what Warren Jeffs is doing today. He is claiming revelation from God and implementing new actions because God is telling him to do this and who could refuse what God tells him to do.
WOW!!!!
Since you obviously realize that your argument has been demolished and that you have no way of escaping the dilemma you created for yourself, you have no choice but to turn it around as an attack on LDS and then even yet again, you CHANGE the original parameter of the topic to a "i think it was God that told me" instead of the original established fact that it WAS God.
So now that we can all see that you are left with no defense but an offense to attack, you lost this debate.
Billyray
01-22-2012, 02:30 PM
That wasn't the question.
Sure it was. Here is the running dialogue
So God's laws and rules change.
So if God himself asked us to sacrifice someone, how would you know which rule to follow? He has set a precedent that he can allow or not allow that.
See your dilemma here?
Not at all. Starting with the death of Christ we are under the law of love, we are to love God and love our neighbor. If we loved our neighbor then we would not kill them.
Billyray
01-22-2012, 02:32 PM
But you just got writing in another thread:
'God is the boss and he makes the rules so it is not wrong for him to allow people to die during the flood"
Absolutely and he has given us the rules for the NT church which is the law of love.
Billyray
01-22-2012, 02:35 PM
You say, "Well, God, you said it was okay in the OT but then changed your own law in the NT, and well, I cannot obey your commend of me now since it conflicts with the law you gave in the NT but not the law you gave in the OT".
God has given us the rules that he wants us to follow under the NT church. We are commanded to love our neighbor. He would not then give us a commandment to kill our neighbor under the NT program.
Absolutely and he has given us the rules for the NT church which is the law of love.
Continuing to ignore that God gives rules, makes laws, and can require men to do as He wishes.
But you would tell God that any command he gave you that wasn't written in the NT you will not follow.
That is Bibliolatry.
Actually, that is New Testamentry. :p
You limit God to the NT.
And you ignore everything else about God.
Billyray
01-22-2012, 02:37 PM
Since you obviously realize that your argument has been demolished
BTW the statement that I made about Jeffs is certainly relevant today and this is at the heart of what you are trying to do with this line of questioning.
You see this whole line of questioning by you and theway is to provide a rationalization to justify your false beliefs. This is no different than what Warren Jeffs is doing today. He is claiming revelation from God and implementing new actions because God is telling him to do this and who could refuse what God tells him to do.
Billyray
01-22-2012, 02:38 PM
Since you obviously realize that your argument has been demolished
Not at all except in your own mind.
If God asked you to reject him and follow Satan would you do it?
God has given us the rules that he wants us to follow under the NT church. We are commanded to love our neighbor. He would not then give us a commandment to kill our neighbor under the NT program.
See?
You are now thinking for God, speaking for God, and pretending to be God.
It's all you can do since you are forced to ignore your very own posts here that state God can do as He pleases, and God has shown that he can command killing and he can command not killing.
It's okay with me that you want to be a Bibliolatrist, and disobey a command from God if it conflicted with the NT. your choice.
Sure it was. Here is the running dialogue
Right.
You claim God can change his laws from OT to NT. But then you claim He CANNOT command you to obey an OT law. That God is INCAPABLE of that. And you would DISOBEY God if he asked you to obey a command of his.
We're really just rehashing the same thing here.
So no need to keep repeating ourselves. The thread can speak for itself.
Billyray
01-22-2012, 02:45 PM
You are now thinking for God, speaking for God, and pretending to be God.
I am not pretending to be God, rather I am listening to God by following what he has told me to do via his word. And he has also told to me watch out for people like you who preach a different gospel that runs counter to what has been revealed in the NT.
BTW the statement that I made about Jeffs is certainly relevant today and this is at the heart of what you are trying to do with this line of questioning.
Nice try.
The questions presented have ALWAYS PRECLUDED that it was VERY GOD, not someone believing it was God, or an angel of light, or Satan masquerading as God..
...VERY GOD.
But the only way out of your dilemma is to change the goal posts and claim that it might not really be God.
Billyray
01-22-2012, 02:47 PM
You claim God can change his laws from OT to NT. But then you claim He CANNOT command you to obey an OT law.
Because we are no longer under the law after the death of Christ.
Not at all except in your own mind.
If God asked you to reject him and follow Satan would you do it?
See?
You already IGNORED the fact that we have scriptural precendent that God has allowed and disallowed killing.
I asked you to provide scriptural precedent that shows God ever commanded rejecting him and following Satan.
You cannot.
that's why you ignored it and continue to use that fallacious argument.
It's all you have left.
The readers of this thread can see it plainly.
I am not pretending to be God, rather I am listening to God by following what he has told me to do via his word. And he has also told to me watch out for people like you who preach a different gospel that runs counter to what has been revealed in the NT.
That's all you have left.
Insult and attack and now argue against something irrelevant to the topic at hand.
Billyray
01-22-2012, 02:51 PM
See?
If God asked you to reject him and follow Satan would you do it?
Billyray
01-22-2012, 02:52 PM
I asked you to provide scriptural precedent that shows God ever commanded rejecting him and following Satan.
Couldn't God make up a new rule? He is God after all.
If God asked you to reject him and follow Satan would you do it?
Billyray
01-22-2012, 02:54 PM
That's all you have left.
Insult and attack and now argue against something irrelevant to the topic at hand.
Not an insult but rather a warning to watch out for false prophets and their minions such as yourself that preach another gospel. Why would God give us that warning if he knew that the gospel would change prior to his second coming?
Couldn't God make up a new rule? He is God after all.
If God asked you to reject him and follow Satan would you do it?
This is all you have left.
I'm sorry.
You lost this debate.
(BTW, if God could make a new rule, why are you claiming he cannot make it a rule he ALREADY had at one time, and instead you create a fallacy that God would create rule that goes against his very laws and rules?)
Let it go, billy.
We won't mind.
Not an insult but rather a warning to watch out for false prophets and their minions such as yourself that preach another gospel. Why would God give us that warning if he knew that the gospel would change prior to his second coming?
More insults and calling me names.
It's all you have left.
I'm sorry.
Billyray
01-22-2012, 02:57 PM
This is all you have left.
I'm sorry.
You lost this debate.
(BTW, if God could make a new rule, why are you claiming he cannot make it a rule he ALREADY had at one time, and instead you create a fallacy that God would create rule that goes against his very laws and rules?)
Let it go, billy.
We won't mind.
Are you going to answer my question?
If God asked you to reject him and follow Satan would you do it?
Billyray
01-22-2012, 02:59 PM
More insults and calling me names.
It's all you have left.
I'm sorry.
I am giving you the truth according to the Bible. You would be wise to listen to what the Bible says rather than trying to come up with sneaky attempts to justify your false doctrine. This is no different that what Warren Jeffs is doing today. He is claiming that God has given him revelations and because it is from God it doesn't matter if anything conflicts with what is taught in the NT. Big mistake on his part and big mistake on your part as long as you follow your false prophet.
Are you going to answer my question?
If God asked you to reject him and follow Satan would you do it?
Are you going to show me scriptural precedent where God EVER commanded that we reject Him and followe Satan?
You said: "You would be wise to listen to what the Bible says rather than trying to come up with sneaky attempts to justify your false doctrine"
So pony up the Bible showing that God commanded to reject him and follow satan.
I am only doing as you suggested. :)
Billyray
01-22-2012, 03:26 PM
Are you going to show me scriptural precedent where God EVER commanded that we reject Him and followe Satan?
Why do you think that God can't make up a new rule? He has done that in various times all throughout history.
So are you going to answer my question?
Why do you think that God can't make up a new rule? He has done that in various times all throughout history.
So are you going to answer my question?
I'm using the Bible as precedent. You said to do the same.
Show me the Bible precedent for God commanding that we follow Satan.
Isn't it funny that you are arguing that God CAN make a new rule, but also arguing that God cannot command someone to follow a previous law/command he already created?
No wonder you are left with only this line of reasoning.
Billyray
01-22-2012, 03:31 PM
Show me the Bible precedent for God commanding that we follow Satan.
God gave new laws that didn't have prior precedent so by this standard God couldn't do this. Is that what you are saying?
God gave new laws that didn't have prior precedent so by this standard God couldn't do this. Is that what you are saying?
This is what you're left with?
So no Bible to support your position?
I gave Biblical precedent to show that God can allow and disallow killing.
You are left with creating fallacious hypotheticals to try and justify disobeying God if he asked you to do something that is OT command and not NT.
All reading this see that you are left with nothing but this.
I'm sorry.
Billyray
01-22-2012, 03:42 PM
This is what you're left with?
So no Bible to support your position?
I gave Biblical precedent to show that God can allow and disallow killing.
But God has made new laws for his people that were never given before. Thus God can make up a new law. If this were the case then my question should be an easy one for you as you noted in the OP "Watch how easy this is"
I waiting to see how easy it is for you to answer this question.
If God asked you to reject him and follow Satan would you do it?
But God has made new laws for his people that were never given before. Thus God can make up a new law. If this were the case then my question should be an easy one for you as you noted in the OP "Watch how easy this is"
I waiting to see how easy it is for you to answer this question.
If God asked you to reject him and follow Satan would you do it?
You must've forgotten what the "easy question" was.
Go back to the first post and you'll see.
Since then you've been arguing that God can change commands, make up new laws, and that you are restriscted to NT laws. So your question is moot. You should figure out your own position before trying to create a false premise for me to answer.
But the bottom line so far is: I would do whatever God asked. You would NOT do what God asked if it was an OT command and you would tell God that you are a NT command follower only.
Billyray
01-22-2012, 04:18 PM
But the bottom line so far is: I would do whatever God asked.
If God asked you to reject him and follow Satan would you do it?
Thanks that answers my question about how you would answer the above question.
If God asked you to reject him and follow Satan would you do it?
Thanks that answers my question about how you would answer the above question.
Oh sure, if you feel it justified to take my answer that I would do whatever God asked me, and you create illogical commands that God would command me to do and claim that I said i would do them, who am I to stop your dishonesty and deception?
As I said, this is all you have left.
I would do whatever God commanded me.
You would only do what God commanded you if it was found in the NT.
Bibliolatrists will alwyas question God over the Bible.
Billyray
01-22-2012, 04:31 PM
I would do whatever God commanded me.
And that would include rejecting God and following the Devil if that is what God asked of you. Correct?
And that would include rejecting God and following the Devil if that is what God asked of you. Correct?
I'll leave you to making your own deceptive and fallacious connections.
I'll start you off:
I will do anything that very God the Father commanded me.
Now you go ahead and insert every illogical and fallacious claim you want and ascribe it to my willingness to obey God.
have fun.
It's all you have left.
I have a Niner game to attend to. :)
Russianwolfe
01-22-2012, 05:45 PM
If God asked you to reject him and follow Satan would you do it?
Moses 1: 9 And the presence of God withdrew from Moses, that his glory was not upon Moses; and Moses was left unto himself. And as he was left unto himself, he fell unto the earth.
10 And it came to p*** that it was for the space of many hours before Moses did again receive his natural strength like unto man; and he said unto himself: Now, for this cause I know that man is nothing, which thing I never had supposed.
11 But now mine own eyes have beheld God; but not my natural, but my spiritual eyes, for my natural eyes could not have beheld; for I should have withered and died in his presence; but his glory was upon me; and I beheld his face, for I was transfigured before him.
12 And it came to p*** that when Moses had said these words, behold, aSatan came tempting him, saying: Moses, son of man, worship me.
13 And it came to p*** that Moses looked upon Satan and said: Who art thou? For behold, I am a son of God, in the similitude of his Only Begotten; and where is thy glory, that I should worship thee?
14 For behold, I could not look upon God, except his glory should come upon me, and I were transfigured before him. But I can look upon thee in the natural man. Is it not so, surely?
15 Blessed be the name of my God, for his Spirit hath not altogether withdrawn from me, or else where is thy glory, for it is darkness unto me? And I can judge between thee and God; for God said unto me: Worship God, for him only shalt thou serve.
16 Get thee hence, Satan; deceive me not; for God said unto me: Thou art after the similitude of mine Only Begotten.
17 And he also gave me commandments when he called unto me out of the burning bush, saying: Call upon God in the name of mine Only Begotten, and worship me.
18 And again Moses said: I will not cease to call upon God, I have other things to inquire of him: for his glory has been upon me, wherefore I can judge between him and thee. Depart hence, Satan.
19 And now, when Moses had said these words, Satan cried with a loud voice, and ranted upon the earth, and commanded, saying: I am the Only Begotten, worship me.
20 And it came to p*** that Moses began to fear exceedingly; and as he began to fear, he saw the bitterness of hell. Nevertheless, calling upon God, he received strength, and he commanded, saying: Depart from me, Satan, for this one God only will I worship, which is the God of eglory.
21 And now Satan began to tremble, and the earth shook; and Moses received strength, and called upon God, saying: In the name of the Only Begotten, depart hence, Satan.
22 And it came to p*** that Satan cried with a loud voice, with weeping, and wailing, and gnashing of teeth; and he departed hence, even from the presence of Moses, that he beheld him not.
23 And now of this thing Moses bore record; but because of wickedness it is not had among the children of men.
24 And it came to p*** that when Satan had departed from the presence of Moses, that Moses lifted up his eyes unto heaven, being filled with the Holy Ghost, which beareth record of the Father and the Son;
25 And calling upon the name of God, he beheld his glory again, for it was upon him; and he heard a voice, saying: Blessed art thou, Moses, for I, the Almighty, have chosen thee, and thou shalt be made stronger than many waters; for they shall obey thy command as if thou wert fGod.
26 And lo, I am with thee, even unto the end of thy days; for thou shalt deliver my people from bondage, even Israel my echosen.
27 And it came to p***, as the voice was still speaking, Moses cast his eyes and beheld the earth, yea, even all of it; and there was not a particle of it which he did not behold, discerning it by the Spirit of God.
Your question seems quite pointless.
Marvin
Billyray
01-22-2012, 05:49 PM
You question seems quite pointless.
Marvin
Not at all because this is the basis of the thread. What you guys are trying t do is get out from under the clear teachings of the Bible in order to support your false doctrine.
Russianwolfe
01-22-2012, 06:07 PM
Not at all because this is the basis of the thread. What you guys are trying t do is get out from under the clear teachings of the Bible in order to support your false doctrine.
And you just ignored the scripture that I posted. The fact of the matter is, you are in a panic trying to find a way out of the corner you are in. You are beginning to see that your Biblioatry is fatal but you just can't give it up.
Marvin
Billyray
01-22-2012, 06:22 PM
And you just ignored the scripture that I posted. The fact of the matter is, you are in a panic trying to find a way out of the corner you are in. You are beginning to see that your Biblioatry is fatal but you just can't give it up.
Marvin
And you are trying as hard as you can to come up with a justification for your false beliefs. I feel for you Marvin. I was in you shoes and it is not a very comforting place to be.
Russianwolfe
01-22-2012, 06:26 PM
And you are trying as hard as you can to come up with a justification for your false beliefs. I feel for you Marvin. I was in you shoes and it is not a very comforting place to be.
I am quite comfortable and very happy, so your experience is not the same as mine.
I have nothing to justify. I am pointing out the error in your thinking and using scripture to prove it. Something I don't see you doing very often. Unless that single scripture theology thing you got goin' is proof of your lack of scriptural knowledge.
Marvin
Billyray
01-22-2012, 06:47 PM
Unless that single scripture theology thing you got goin' is proof of your lack of scriptural knowledge.
Marvin
Is this your attempt to justify ignoring multiple NT verses that clearly say that works do not contribute for salvation?
Billyray
01-22-2012, 06:50 PM
I am quite comfortable and very happy, so your experience is not the same as mine.
And this at the cost of denying teaching after teaching the you hold dear but can't admit such as a heavenly mother. How pathetic is that?
And you just ignored the scripture that I posted. The fact of the matter is, you are in a panic trying to find a way out of the corner you are in. You are beginning to see that your Biblioatry is fatal but you just can't give it up.
Marvin
When backed into a corner all you can do is close your eyes and start swinging, hoping you will connect.
It's funny that billy's mantra in this thread is that we are trying to justify false doctrines. But this thread is simply about whether you would obey God or not. And since he has answered that he would not obey God unless it was a NT command, he has no other choice but to fight his way out of his selective obedience to God.
Russianwolfe
01-23-2012, 04:06 AM
And this at the cost of denying teaching after teaching the you hold dear but can't admit such as a heavenly mother. How pathetic is that?
I am not denying anything. You are the one who is attempting to make a teaching into a doctrine. I simply ask for the scripture that establishes this teaching as doctrine. And all you can do is accuse me of denying a teaching. It is not a doctrine and you won't admit that. I have on many occasions told you that the doctrines of the church are contained in the scriptures. And you want to prove that wrong and go directly to a teaching to compare to doctrine. Apples and Oranges. Every LDS will tell you that a heavenly mother is not doctrine. Someone even told you we reach that teaching by logic not by scripture. And yet you accuse me of denying this teaching simply because I ask you to prove that it is a doctrine. It is plain to anyone who reads your statement that you have no truth in you and are using pathetic manipulative techniques to embarr*** me into believing your way. Hasn' worked and won't work. I am not ashamed of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, for it is the way of salvation for every living thing on the earth.
Cite the scripture that shows that this is a doctrine.
Marvin
Billyray
01-23-2012, 02:44 PM
But this thread is simply about whether you would obey God or not.
Sir would you obey God if he told you to reject him and follow the Devil?
Billyray
01-23-2012, 02:46 PM
I am not denying anything. . .
so do you believe that there is a heavenly mother or not?
jdjhere
01-23-2012, 03:09 PM
Why would we NOT ignore Moses 1:9? Its not Scripture to us.
Billyray
01-23-2012, 03:13 PM
this thread is simply about whether you would obey God or not.
We are commanded to obey God and I strive to do so. What else do you propose that I should do that is not found in the NT?
jdjhere
01-23-2012, 03:24 PM
Its the same old thing, and that is, mainly, how many gods actually exist? I dont CARE if you only worship one, how many actually EXIST or better asked... IS there MORE than ONE that exists? I think that is a very simple YES or NO question. Is satan a god to the LDS? Are LDS males hoping to become gods some day? That is the question, and THAT makes more than one god if LDS think they are going to become one. That makes ALOT more than one actually.The God of the Bible said to "test ALL things" and to "test the spirits" to see if they are of God, and that satan can appear as an angel of light and his demons as well. So, how did we decide that it was actually God that spoke to us and told us to kill? How do we KNOW it was the God of the Bible for sure and not another god? How do we KNOW for a FACT that it was THE God speaking? Through our feelings or through what He has already showed us in His Word, the Bible? Its a good question and I believe it can be done through BOTH. Affirmed by a witness YET tested by Gods Word as commanded. By the reasoning here, LDS, PROVE Warren Jeffs is WRONG to say he is hearing directly from God if you should just trust your "feelings."
BrianH
01-27-2012, 03:25 PM
neverending has informed me taht nobody is going to touch this thread.
That's fine if true…
If that is what NE said, I would say that is pretty much proven at this point to be incorrect. Obviously others have touched this thread.
But I don’t think that anyone has called you on the falsehood of your premise. I will respond though, and I will point out the falsehood and the total lack of faith in God on your part. And I will do it because I think your question and your own answer demonstrate the profound difference between Mormons (you) and Christians (those who actually have faith in God and in His holy Word).
Mr. “Sir” asks, ""If you knew for sure that God was speaking to you and God asked you to take out your wife into the backyard and sacrifice her would you do it?" …and then trumpets the ease of his question.
First, lest you accuse me of doing the Mormon thing and avoiding the question, I will give you the simple answer: no …and you will doubtlessly respond by ignoring and/or parsing out my whole answer to avoid the rest of my response in your predicable effort to try to cover the truth that you have made so plain.
But secondly, the truth is, Mormons - or at least YOU, would actually belieeeeeeve that God told you to murder you wife in the first place. That is the difference between YOU (whether you personally or Mormons in general) and a Christian man. YOU would believe such a “command” because, 1. being spiritually dead, you fundamentally lack any spiritual discernment to begin with, and 2.you do not trust God’s word over your own personal intuitions. That is the primary difference between YOU and those who actually do believe God and have enough faith in His word to know that he would never ask us to do such a thing. The FACT is, the Word of God instructs Christians to love our wives and to give ourselves for them as Christ gave himself for the church (Eph 5:25). Here’s a clue for Mormons: Jesus did not kill his bride but you would.
Then again, why would YOU, a Mormon actually believe the word of God? You would probably convince yourself with some lame boilerplate LDS excuse, such as pronouncing your faith in the limp insinuations of the LDS church that the Book of Ephesians was not “translated correctly”, or some other lame dribble rather than believing Jesus Christ himself who said that his word would never p*** away.
Finally, one thing is certain: I am VERY glad that I am not a Mormon wife, lest my god-husband decides that to obey “God” he must kill me and I bet there are plenty of Mormon wives who, in the face of your confession above, would wish that they had not married a man who would think that God wanted their husbands to kill them.
-BH
.
If that is what NE said, I would say that is pretty much proven at this point to be incorrect. Obviously others have touched this thread.
But I don’t think that anyone has called you on the falsehood of your premise. I will respond though, and I will point out the falsehood and the total lack of faith in God on your part. And I will do it because I think your question and your own answer demonstrate the profound difference between Mormons (you) and Christians (those who actually have faith in God and in His holy Word).
Mr. “Sir” asks, ""If you knew for sure that God was speaking to you and God asked you to take out your wife into the backyard and sacrifice her would you do it?" …and then trumpets the ease of his question.
First, lest you accuse me of doing the Mormon thing and avoiding the question, I will give you the simple answer: no …and you will doubtlessly respond by ignoring and/or parsing out my whole answer to avoid the rest of my response in your predicable effort to try to cover the truth that you have made so plain.
But secondly, the truth is, Mormons - or at least YOU, would actually belieeeeeeve that God told you to murder you wife in the first place. That is the difference between YOU (whether you personally or Mormons in general) and a Christian man. YOU would believe such a “command” because, 1. being spiritually dead, you fundamentally lack any spiritual discernment to begin with, and 2.you do not trust God’s word over your own personal intuitions. That is the primary difference between YOU and those who actually do believe God and have enough faith in His word to know that he would never ask us to do such a thing. The FACT is, the Word of God instructs Christians to love our wives and to give ourselves for them as Christ gave himself for the church (Eph 5:25). Here’s a clue for Mormons: Jesus did not kill his bride but you would.
Then again, why would YOU, a Mormon actually believe the word of God? You would probably convince yourself with some lame boilerplate LDS excuse, such as pronouncing your faith in the limp insinuations of the LDS church that the Book of Ephesians was not “translated correctly”, or some other lame dribble rather than believing Jesus Christ himself who said that his word would never p*** away.
Finally, one thing is certain: I am VERY glad that I am not a Mormon wife, lest my god-husband decides that to obey “God” he must kill me and I bet there are plenty of Mormon wives who, in the face of your confession above, would wish that they had not married a man who would think that God wanted their husbands to kill them.
-BH
.
I realize you have been away on punishment and are not aware of the previous discussions leading to this thread. So I understand your need to appeal to your programmed emotional response to attack me and my views and to also misrepresent the original premise to the question. It is also not surprising that you would disobey God were He to command you to do something, and it is a little interesting that you call the scenerio i presented "murder". Shows that you have mossed much of the conversations previous to this to make a reasonable response.
thanks for living down to my expectations.
Billyray
01-27-2012, 07:35 PM
It is also not surprising that you would disobey God were He to command you to do something. . .
Could you answer my question?
We are commanded to obey God and I strive to do so. What else do you propose that I should do that is not found in the NT?
Could you answer my question?
Whatever God commanded you.
But as we all know and as you have said, unless it is written in the NT you will disbey God.
Now back to the topic.
Billyray
01-27-2012, 07:51 PM
But as we all know and as you have said, unless it is written in the NT you will disbey God.
Where did I say that?
BTW are you going to answer my question?
We are commanded to obey God and I strive to do so. What else do you propose that I should do that is not found in the NT?
Where did I say that?
BTW are you going to answer my question?
We are commanded to obey God and I strive to do so. What else do you propose that I should do that is not found in the NT?
Whatever God commands you.
See, I did answer you that question just last post. You apparently missed it.
So there ya go.
Billyray
01-27-2012, 08:01 PM
Whatever God commands you.
What else do you propose that I should do that is not found in the NT?
What else do you propose that I should do that is not found in the NT?
I propose you stop asking the same questions over and over and over and up and down and backwards etc....
The answer AGAIN, is you shoudl do whatever God commands you.
Apparently you still feel there are other things. I can't help you there.
I would do whatever God commanded me, but that's because I'm not a bibliolatrist who puts the Bible over God.
Billyray
01-27-2012, 08:07 PM
I propose you stop asking the same questions over and over and over and up and down and backwards etc....
The answer AGAIN, is you shoudl do whatever God commands you.
I believe we should obey God. What else do you propose that I do besides that which was given to us in the NT?
I believe we should obey God. What else do you propose that I do besides that which was given to us in the NT?
I find it comical and sad that when you ask what you must do, you claim that the answer to obey whatever commands you to do is not a decent answer.
So keep asking your question until you finally get the tickle that you are looking for.
Billyray
01-27-2012, 08:13 PM
So keep asking your question until you finally get the tickle that you are looking for.
You can't seem to answer my question can you?
I am doing all that God has asked me to do what else do you propose that I do?
neverending
01-27-2012, 08:27 PM
neverending has informed me taht nobody is going to touch this thread.
That's fine if true.
But I think that the reason that might be is simply because the only truthful answer might cause cognitive dissonance in some.
Sir,
Please show me where I said these things? If I did then you'll have to copy and paste it from some other thread and do make sure that we know which thead your getting this from.
You know this question has become so dull and now it's overkill....no pun intended. So, I do not and will not believe that in this day and age, God, the TRUE GOD would EVER ask anyone to kill their wife. God is not stoopid! He knows our laws that we have approved for ourselves so now, why then would God want anyone to commit murder knowing that the murderer will be found guilty and spend the rest of their life behind bars or possibly get the death sentence? Can you see the dilemna now? How easy to kill someone in Bible times, no technology like we have today, no CSI, no FBI....and if no one saw you kill someone, who was going to accuse you? The question is ridiculous....just as the question, "when did you stop beating your wife?"
We have the 10 Commandments telling us thou shalt not murder (kill)! Are we now not to care about the 10 Commandments? My God would not ask me to do such a thing knowing it would be breaking civil law. My God wouldn't want me to commit sin. And since I have never seen the Real God, how then would I know that this was the Real God especially since He's asking me to go against what I know is right and He is giving me contradictory commands.
My conclusion would be that this being is pretending to be the Real God and trying to fool me. The devil can appear as an angel of light and fool many. My God wants what is best for me. He wants me to have an abundant life, to be a light that sits on a hill. How in the world could I have anything good in my life once I had commited this horrible sin? Even if no one knew what I had done, I would never get over the guilt. Is this too what God would want for my life?
BrianH
01-27-2012, 08:46 PM
I realize you have been away on punishment and are not aware of the previous discussions leading to this thread. So I understand your need to appeal to your programmed emotional response to attack me and my views and to also misrepresent the original premise to the question. It is also not surprising that you would disobey God were He to command you to do something, and it is a little interesting that you call the scenerio i presented "murder". Shows that you have mossed much of the conversations previous to this to make a reasonable response.
thanks for living down to my expectations.
You are the one who made it clear that you would kill your own wife on the delusion that "God" told you to do so.
That's the difference between you and me - indeed between Mormons and Christians. You are the one with the problem here, "Sir". You have done a good *** of demonstrating exactly what others have been saying. Yet ...you will never even know that.
Here ...let's just see how duplicitous you guys really are. Answer this question:
Would you kill yourself if God told you to, or is your obedience only limited to killing the innocent?
-BH
.
You can't seem to answer my question can you?
ROFL.....that's billyray for ya....ask the same question 49 times and get the same answer 49 times. So then he'll ask a 50th time and when you don't bother anymore he comes back with "Ha! You can't answer it, can you?!"
ROFL...
Sir,
Please show me where I said these things? If I did then you'll have to copy and paste it from some other thread and do make sure that we know which thead your getting this from.
You don't remember saying nobody would address this thread? You said it here:
"NO....you need to SHUT UP! And don't tell me to calm down! Everything you continue to say only causes me much distress, for all I am seeing is a very lost man who would be the first in line to drink the Kool-Aid. Accept the answers given and MOVE ON! No one is going to answer your new thread ither. If I knew where you lived, I have evidence that you are conspiring to kill your wife, if your Prophet told you to today. Want to share that information with her? I'd like to know how she feels. Maybe divorce would be in your future and rightly so. Good luck with that.
You know this question has become so dull and now it's overkill....no pun intended. So, I do not and will not believe that in this day and age, God, the TRUE GOD would EVER ask anyone to kill their wife. God is not stoopid! He knows our laws that we have approved for ourselves so now, why then would God want anyone to commit murder knowing that the murderer will be found guilty and spend the rest of their life behind bars or possibly get the death sentence? Can you see the dilemna now? How easy to kill someone in Bible times, no technology like we have today, no CSI, no FBI....and if no one saw you kill someone, who was going to accuse you? The question is ridiculous....just as the question, "when did you stop beating your wife?"
LOL...so you believe that God's commanding to kill someone is murder. Great. Then your God is a murderer then, since He has done that very thing. Or did you not think your argument through completely?
Let's see....you went into a tangent about CSI and the FBI, so I am going to say no, you didn't. :p
We have the 10 Commandments telling us thou shalt not murder (kill)!
So your interpretation of the Bible is that killing and murder are synonomous; equal.
Okay. I can see your dilemma.
Are we now not to care about the 10 Commandments? My God would not ask me to do such a thing knowing it would be breaking civil law.
Interesting. And here I thought your (all LDS critics) arguement is that God's commands trump civil laws. Now it doesn't. :confused:
My God wouldn't want me to commit sin. And since I have never seen the Real God, how then would I know that this was the Real God especially since He's asking me to go against what I know is right and He is giving me contradictory commands.
Because the foundation of the question was it was the real God. No what ifs. But as has been pointed out to you and all the others who have intentionally twisted it around to claim the foundation of the question is different, you're left to fight against your own strawman argument.
My conclusion would be that this being is pretending to be the Real God and trying to fool me. The devil can appear as an angel of light and fool many. My God wants what is best for me. He wants me to have an abundant life, to be a light that sits on a hill. How in the world could I have anything good in my life once I had commited this horrible sin? Even if no one knew what I had done, I would never get over the guilt. Is this too what God would want for my life?
See? Like that. Arguing something that was never even a possibility in the original question.
No wonder you guys are so flustered.
You are the one who made it clear that you would kill your own wife on the delusion that "God" told you to do so.
That's the difference between you and me - indeed between Mormons and Christians. You are the one with the problem here, "Sir". You have done a good *** of demonstrating exactly what others have been saying. Yet ...you will never even know that.
Here ...let's just see how duplicitous you guys really are. Answer this question:
Would you kill yourself if God told you to, or is your obedience only limited to killing the innocent?
-BH
.
See? Even BrianH, who has been away on mandatory hiatus, has returned only to make the same mistake as his cohorts - to change the foundation of the question to a "What if it was God" instead of the true question that "It is God, no question".
So he too is left fighting against an argument of his own making.
And he is attempting to set a trap for me in claiming i will be duplitious in answering his baited question. But the answer is the same. Whatever very God asked me to do I would obey.
See? The only duplitiousness going on here is the critics that claim to love and obey God and taht God can do whatever he pleases but then claim that God can't do this or won't do that and.....
Libby
01-27-2012, 10:07 PM
Yes, plus, I think they keep forgetting that God actually did tell Abraham to kill his only son, and he was prepared to act on that command. Was Abraham "delusional"?
Yes, plus, I think they keep forgetting that God actually did tell Abraham to kill his only son, and he was prepared to act on that command. Was Abraham "delusional"?
Yep. he was delusional and the God that asked Abraham to do that was a tyrant and a murderer; a God that asks His children to sin; a God that wants His children to break civil laws.
....But it's okay since they didn't have CSI back then.:eek: :p :D
Billyray
01-27-2012, 10:33 PM
ROFL.....that's billyray for ya....ask the same question 49 times and get the same answer 49 times. So then he'll ask a 50th time and when you don't bother anymore he comes back with "Ha! You can't answer it, can you?!"
ROFL...
Sir I am surprised that you are having such a hard time answering such an easy question. The fact is that all that is required FOR salvation is given in the NT. I asked you specifically what else was required and you were unable to give me an answer. Don't you know what is required in addition to that given in the NT FOR salvation? I guess not.
Billyray
01-27-2012, 10:37 PM
See? The only duplitiousness going on here is the critics that claim to love and obey God and taht God can do whatever he pleases but then claim that God can't do this or won't do that and.....
If God asked you to forsake him and worship the devil would you do it?
Sir I am surprised that you are having such a hard time answering such an easy question. The fact is that all that is required FOR salvation is given in the NT. I asked you specifically what else was required and you were unable to give me an answer. Don't you know what is required in addition to that given in the NT FOR salvation? I guess not.
See how billyray is now creating a new line of question about conditions of salvation?
Remember, folks, the original simple question was if there was no question it was God and he commanded you to do something, would you?
But all critics like billy have left is to change the question, add their own twist on it, ask it 50+ times and then claim the person is unable to answer.
It's desperate, but it's all they have at this point.
Billyray
01-27-2012, 10:46 PM
Remember, folks, the original simple question was if there was no question it was God and he commanded you to do something, would you?
I believe we should follow God. I have never said that we shouldn't follow God. What God has told me is through his word in the NT. I have had no other requests of God other than that. What else is required that I am not currently doing?
If God asked you to forsake him and worship the devil would you do it?
You never got an answer because you never answered my question that was an important point to yours:
Where is there precedent in the Bible that God ever commanded someone to forsake Him and worship the Devil? I have precedent that God has asked someone to sacrifice a person. But you? No.
That's why you keep begging for an answer.
It's all you got left.
Desperation.
i believe we should follow god. I have never said otherwise. What god has told me is through his word in the nt. What else is required that i am not currently doing?
52+
?????
Billyray
01-27-2012, 10:48 PM
But all critics like billy have left is to change the question, add their own twist on it, ask it 50+ times and then claim the person is unable to answer.
I was one of the first to actually answer the question so you are absolutely false in your ***ertion.
Billyray
01-27-2012, 10:49 PM
52+
?????
It is a simple question Sir. If someone asked me what was required of him or her I could easily give them an answer. Even when I was LDS I could easily answer this question. This is simply gamesmanship on your part.
Billyray
01-27-2012, 10:50 PM
52+
?????
Since you are not going to answer my question how about answering this simple question based on theway's original question.
If God asked you to forsake him and worship the devil would you do it?
It is a simple question Sir. If someone asked me what was required of him or her I could easily give them an answer. Even when I was LDS I could easily answer this question. This is simply gamesmanship on your part.
Required?
For what?
Salvation?
That was never a part of this topic.
It's simply about if God asked you to do something, would you?
You said yes.
Good.
End of conversation.
Since you are not going to answer my question how about answering this simple question based on theway's original question.
Where is there precedent in the Bible that God ever commanded someone to forsake Him and worship the Devil?
Billyray
01-27-2012, 10:57 PM
Where is there precedent in the Bible that God ever commanded someone to forsake Him and worship the Devil?
Are you having a hard time answering my simple question?????
Does God have to have a precedent in the BIBLE for you to do what HE asks of you?
Are you having a hard time answering my simple question?????
Does God have to have a precedent in the BIBLE for you to do what HE asks of you?
You should show me where God would command someone to go completely against His nature and His will.
Should be easy. You seem to be having a hard time.
I have shown why my question is legitimate and actually something that God has done. yet you and others seem to loathe the answer. So if you have such a hard time accepting an answer of something God HAS done, why would you accept an answer based on something God has NEVER done?
You're really desperately trying to trap me with paradoxical scenerio, and this in response to the original scenerio in which God has actually commanded sacrifice.
If you want to ask me your same desperate attempting to trap-me question, feel free.
Billyray
01-27-2012, 11:27 PM
You should show me where God would command someone to go completely against His nature and His will.
So you are asking me for a precedent in order for you to comply with what God asked you to do? Isn't that the same thing that Christians are asking for when using the Bible as a standard?
So you are asking me for a precedent in order for you to comply with what God asked you to do? Isn't that the same thing that Christians are asking for when using the Bible as a standard?
If you want to think of it that way.
I'm trying to figure out why you think your paradoxical entrapping question is supposed to be equal to and on par with my question.
It's just so obvious that you have your back against the wall and so are desperately left to this.
So if you must ask your silly question that you think will trap me and vindicate you somehow, go ahead and keep asking it.
I see through you. Not hard being so transparent.
Billyray
01-27-2012, 11:38 PM
I'm trying to figure out why you think your paradoxical entrapping question is supposed to be equal to and on par with my question.
It was actually theway's question and he has asked this question before on CARM where I answered it then. There is no difference between my question and your question.
neverending
01-28-2012, 09:30 AM
You don't remember saying nobody would address this thread? You said it here:
LOL...so you believe that God's commanding to kill someone is murder. Great. Then your God is a murderer then, since He has done that very thing. Or did you not think your argument through completely?
Let's see....you went into a tangent about CSI and the FBI, so I am going to say no, you didn't. :p
So your interpretation of the Bible is that killing and murder are synonomous; equal.
Okay. I can see your dilemma.
Interesting. And here I thought your (all LDS critics) arguement is that God's commands trump civil laws. Now it doesn't. :confused:
Because the foundation of the question was it was the real God. No what ifs. But as has been pointed out to you and all the others who have intentionally twisted it around to claim the foundation of the question is different, you're left to fight against your own strawman argument.
See? Like that. Arguing something that was never even a possibility in the original question.
No wonder you guys are so flustered.
No, anyone being flustered here is that you LDS continue throwing this insane question out there. It has been answered many times over. MY god would not command me to kill anyone, there is the difference. And if you look back through the Bible, Abraham was the only man who EVER heard God telling him to sacrfice his son (to kill Issac). We must also remember that this all happened long before Moses and the 10 Commandments; there was NO LAWS for the Hebrews to follow at that time. We all know the outcome of that story. Now, if this same scenario were to take place today, tell that to a judge and see how far it gets you. That is all I am saying. We do NOT live under the same conditions as Biblical days. Your fanny would be hauled into jail, locked up til trial and then you would be questioned by a Prosecuting Attorney while 6-12 people on a jury of your peers heard all the evidence and yes, you'd be found either mentally insane and sentenced to life in an Nut House or given life in prison, or even the death sentence; depending on where you live. Can you see the problem this would cause in today's society?
I've shared that we here in Utah did have a scenario such as the one we've been discussing. That of two brothers who admitted they heard god tell them that they needed to sacrifice their sister-in-law and baby niece for they stood in the way of their other brother to marry a second wife (these men belonged to a polygamous sect here). The baby was only 18 months old and had her throat slit as well as the mother's. It is horrible to think about but is this what you want all of us here to believe that you too would do the same thing if you heard god speak to you and command you to sacrifice your precious wife, the mother of your children? And what if god didn't stay your hand as he did Abraham's? You would be arrested and you know it?
Sir, there is a great difference between the God you believe in as he couldn't even put a person back together after they were cremated, this was my mother's opinion as to why the LDS frown on cremation. I had to laugh knowing that my God created man out of the dust of the earth and with a word, the universe came into being. Your god however couldn't find his way out of a paper bag and he had to progress to being god, he wasn't always god and so he must continue to learn how to be one?? NONSENSE! The things you will believe!
BrianH
01-28-2012, 10:22 AM
See? Even BrianH, who has been away on mandatory hiatus, has returned only to make the same mistake as his cohorts - to change the foundation of the question to a "What if it was God" instead of the true question that "It is God, no question".
So he too is left fighting against an argument of his own making.
And he is attempting to set a trap for me in claiming i will be duplitious in answering his baited question. But the answer is the same. Whatever very God asked me to do I would obey.
See? The only duplitiousness going on here is the critics that claim to love and obey God and taht God can do whatever he pleases but then claim that God can't do this or won't do that and.....
I answered your question, but you, as usual will not even try to answer mine. You ARE being duplicitous, Mr. "Sir". I am only pointing out YOUR behaviors. You would murder your wife and I would not. YOU could even be fooled into thinking that it was God who told you to do it. That is the difference between Mormons and Christians. Mormons can be made to believe pretty much ANYTHING they are told to believe. You lack any knowledge of the word of God which gives the lie to your premise - that God WOULD tell you to kill your wife in the first place.
Now lets watch you avoid my question again:
If you thought that God told you to kill yourself, would you do it; or is your obedience only limited to killing other people?
-BH
.
I answered your question, but you, as usual will not even try to answer mine. You ARE being duplicitous, Mr. "Sir". I am only pointing out YOUR behaviors. You would murder your wife and I would not. YOU could even be fooled into thinking that it was God who told you to do it. That is the difference between Mormons and Christians. Mormons can be made to believe pretty much ANYTHING they are told to believe. You lack any knowledge of the word of God which gives the lie to your premise - that God WOULD tell you to kill your wife in the first place.
Now lets watch you avoid my question again:
If you thought that God told you to kill yourself, would you do it; or is your obedience only limited to killing other people?
-BH
.
I see that in your zeal to attack me personally, you did not comprehend that I actually DID answer your silly question. It's okay, though, since you can easily scroll back up.
But I know you will still live down to my expectations, still not comprehend the answer, and still claim that you were avoided.
And oddly enough you will still do what all your buddies here have done, and that is to change the premise of the question to "you THOUGHT it was God but really wasn't"....which is simply just your strawman to fight against.
So go for it!!
Sir, there is a great difference between the God you believe in as he couldn't even put a person back together after they were cremated,
neverendings LDS misrepresentation # 4876. :D
Ironic that the more you complain about being accused of misrepresenting LDS beliefs the more you misrepresent LDS beliefs.
LOL
BrianH
01-28-2012, 02:11 PM
I see that in your zeal to attack me personally, you did not comprehend that I actually DID answer your silly question. It's okay, though, since you can easily scroll back up.
But I know you will still live down to my expectations, still not comprehend the answer, and still claim that you were avoided.
And oddly enough you will still do what all your buddies here have done, and that is to change the premise of the question to "you THOUGHT it was God but really wasn't"....which is simply just your strawman to fight against.
So go for it!!
You did not answer the question ...as usual. And as usual, all you can do is play the victim because I DARED to challenge you. (Mod edit - NO BAITING)
You said you would kill your wife if you thought God told you to do so. So I will ask you AGAIN:
If you thought that God told you to kill yourself, would you do it; or is your obedience only limited to killing other people?
(mod edit - NO BAITING) You should be able to answer questions as well as asking them.
What's the matter?
-BH
.
You did not answer the question ...as usual. And as usual, all you can do is play the victim because I DARED to challenge you. - what you being a "god" and all that silly Mormon claptrap.
You said you would kill your wife if you thought God told you to do so. So I will ask you AGAIN:
If you thought that God told you to kill yourself, would you do it; or is your obedience only limited to killing other people?
You are the Mormon god here, Mr. "Sir" ...you should be able to answer questions as well as asking them.
What's the matter?
-BH
.
See? even after being told what he would do, BrianH lived down to our expectations and did the very thing. And he is left to taunt and bait and mock me, and then of course the obligatory "you are a victim" if you simply acknowledge that he is doing those things. Kind like you are a racist if you simply mention someone's skin color in a conversation. LDS-critic mentality. It's all they have left.
But I know you will still live down to my expectations, still not comprehend the answer, and still claim that you were avoided.
Apparently when someone says they would do whatever God asked him to do, BrianH still does not quite understand what that means. Maybe someone else reading this could help him out. :p
BigJulie
01-28-2012, 03:58 PM
Oh, how the critic loves to talk in hypotheticals. Let's look at some real scenarios. If God told you to kill your child would you do it even though everything you had learned to this point about God would say that such a thing is wrong? Abraham chose to listen to God first and foremost and not his own understanding when it came to sacrificing Isaac.
Next, what about killing yourself? If the lives of others requires you to sacrifice yourself, do you do it? Jonah did when he knew that the lives of the others on the boat were at risk and he did not leave the boat at once. He didn't say to God, I will do what you want so calm the water and I will get there eventually. Instead, he let the men on the boat know he was the problem and in a sense, gave himself over for dead. Unless you think that Jonah somehow knew that not only would he survive the ocean, but also being in the belly of a fish. And of course, Jonah was a type of Christ who also gave his life (when he had the choice not to) for others.
So, here are two real examples where two men listened to God and did what seemed crazy.
Oh, how the critic loves to talk in hypotheticals. Let's look at some real scenarios. If God told you to kill your child would you do it even though everything you had learned to this point about God would say that such a thing is wrong? Abraham chose to listen to God first and foremost and not his own understanding when it came to sacrificing Isaac.
Next, what about killing yourself? If the lives of others requires you to sacrifice yourself, do you do it? Jonah did when he knew that the lives of the others on the boat were at risk and he did not leave the boat at once. He didn't say to God, I will do what you want so calm the water and I will get there eventually. Instead, he let the men on the boat know he was the problem and in a sense, gave himself over for dead. Unless you think that Jonah somehow knew that not only would he survive the ocean, but also being in the belly of a fish. And of course, Jonah was a type of Christ who also gave his life (when he had the choice not to) for others.
So, here are two real examples where two men listened to God and did what seemed crazy.
Funny, isn't it? I answered that I would do ANYTHING God asked me to do. And yet BrianH calls that avoiding a question that asks if I would do something God asked me to do.
I guess I can understand how someone might get lost in that question answer exchange. :p :D
Billyray
01-28-2012, 04:06 PM
I see that in your zeal to attack me personally, you did not comprehend that I actually DID answer your silly question.
How about answering my question or Brian's question instead of avoiding it.
Billyray
01-28-2012, 04:10 PM
So, here are two real examples where two men listened to God and did what seemed crazy.
If I follow what is taught in the NT what else is required of me FOR salvation?
Billyray
01-28-2012, 04:12 PM
Next, what about killing yourself? If the lives of others requires you to sacrifice yourself, do you do it? Jonah did when he knew that the lives of the others on the boat were at risk and he did not leave the boat at once. He didn't say to God, I will do what you want so calm the water and I will get there eventually. Instead, he let the men on the boat know he was the problem and in a sense, gave himself over for dead. Unless you think that Jonah somehow knew that not only would he survive the ocean, but also being in the belly of a fish. And of course, Jonah was a type of Christ who also gave his life (when he had the choice not to) for others.
Where did God command Jonah to take his own life?
How about answering my question or Brian's question instead of avoiding it.
See? I guess the comprehension in the LDS-critic dept is on low these days. Now they reply to your answers with chatges that you avoid answering! :D:p
Maybe billy is just upset that I won't bite his stinkbait. :cool:
Funny, isn't it? I answered that I would do ANYTHING God asked me to do.
I guess I can understand how someone might get lost in that question answer exchange.
Billyray
01-28-2012, 04:27 PM
See? I guess the comprehension in the LDS-critic dept is on low these days. Now they reply to your answers with chatges that you avoid answering!
We both asked simple questions that related to your question. It seem like you do not want to answer it. That is fine.
BigJulie
01-28-2012, 04:49 PM
If I follow what is taught in the NT what else is required of me FOR salvation?
This brings to mind two things we learn from the Bible. One, that the scriptures are not enough to give eternal life. God doesn't say, follow the Bible, He states, "follow me." Two, that the only source of salvation is God.
Here are two examples:
The first example of this is the rich young ruler. He "followed what was taught" and thought that this would save him when ultimately, what saves (as has been discussed many times) is Christ Himself. Hence, was it good enough to follow the teachings that had already learned of Christ for this rich young man? NO, ultimately, what is required is to follow Christ when He asks YOU to do something. In other words, if he asks you, Billyray, to do something that you cannot find written in black and white in the scriptures, it does not excuse you.
Second example is the Pharisees whom Christ directly answers the question you ask. The Pharisees believed they were following what they understood God to be from the Torah. But this is what Christ said to them:
"Jhn 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
Jhn 5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life."
He directly notes that in the scriptures the pharisees "THINK" they had eternal life, but Christ corrects them. It is not the scriptures that give eternal life, but Christ Himself. So, what does He say? He says that the scriptures are what testify of Christ and they would NOT come to Christ and have eternal life. So, it is not the scriptures that provide eternal life. Hence, if you think the scriptures will save you, you are wrong. It is Christ and as such, the only thing the scriptures are meant to accomplish is to turn to you what really saves---Christ.
In other words, if you think you can follow the scriptures and ignore Christ, you are sadly mistaken.
BigJulie
01-28-2012, 04:51 PM
Where did God command Jonah to take his own life?
When did God the Father command Jesus Christ to give up His life? Could Christ have saved Himself?
BrianH
01-28-2012, 05:10 PM
See? even after being told what he would do, BrianH lived down to our expectations and did the very thing. And he is left to taunt and bait and mock me, and then of course the obligatory "you are a victim" if you simply acknowledge that he is doing those things. Kind like you are a racist if you simply mention someone's skin color in a conversation. LDS-critic mentality. It's all they have left.
Precisely what has you so taunted and offended by little ole' me simply asking you the same kind of question you asked me? YOU are the one who proudly proclaimed that you would kill your own wife. If pointing out that FACT is so offensive to you, perhaps YOU should not have said it to begin with.
This is the same kind of question you posted in the OP: Would you kill yourself if you thought God told you to? You have already made it clear that you would kill your own wife. Is your obedience only limited to killing your wife as YOU admitted or would it extend to killing yourself?
Apparently when someone says they would do whatever God asked him to do, BrianH still does not quite understand what that means. Maybe someone else reading this could help him out. :p
I understand that you would kill your wife if you thought God told you to. You said so yourself. Yet you complain to the mod when I point out what YOU said. I also understand that you have an obvious double standard since you refuse to recognize the FACT that the word of God makes it clear that God would never do such a thing, yet you would believe it anyway.
-BH
.
neverending
01-28-2012, 05:15 PM
This brings to mind two things we learn from the Bible. One, that the scriptures are not enough to give eternal life. God doesn't say, follow the Bible, He states, "follow me." Two, that the only source of salvation is God.
Here are two examples:
The first example of this is the rich young ruler. He "followed what was taught" and thought that this would save him when ultimately, what saves (as has been discussed many times) is Christ Himself. Hence, was it good enough to follow the teachings that had already learned of Christ for this rich young man? NO, ultimately, what is required is to follow Christ when He asks YOU to do something. In other words, if he asks you, Billyray, to do something that you cannot find written in black and white in the scriptures, it does not excuse you.
Second example is the Pharisees whom Christ directly answers the question you ask. The Pharisees believed they were following what they understood God to be from the Torah. But this is what Christ said to them:
"Jhn 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
Jhn 5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life."
He directly notes that in the scriptures the pharisees "THINK" they had eternal life, but Christ corrects them. It is not the scriptures that give eternal life, but Christ Himself. So, what does He say? He says that the scriptures are what testify of Christ and they would NOT come to Christ and have eternal life. So, it is not the scriptures that provide eternal life. Hence, if you think the scriptures will save you, you are wrong. It is Christ and as such, the only thing the scriptures are meant to accomplish is to turn to you what really saves---Christ.
In other words, if you think you can follow the scriptures and ignore Christ, you are sadly mistaken.
BJ: First, who's word is it, I mean who's word is found in the Bible? If it wasn't for the Bible you wouldn't have been able to even quote these parables or even say what Christ said, when He said, "come follow me". Julie, it is ONLY through Christ that one can have ETERNAL life and IT IS those VERY Scriptures that tell us so. 1 John 5:13, do go and read it. It is the one verse that I cling to and lean on everyday.
neverending
01-28-2012, 05:22 PM
When did God the Father command Jesus Christ to give up His life? Could Christ have saved Himself?
BJ: I do think you know the answer to your question. Christ could have come down off that cross at any time, NO one took his life, HE gave it up freely for you and me!! Had he come down off that cross, then we would have no hope, nothing! When our lives ended, all we would have to look forward to was Hell.....no resurrection, no Savior, nothing but outer darkness and torment. Course that is what we all deserve but our precious Savior loved us ENOUGH to come to earth, taking on a mortal body, experienced all the things men did, being tempted in every way and yet.....he took our place on that bloody cross and hung there and died. Think about it for a moment, what Christ suffered for us all. I give him praise and honor for he is worthy of it.
Libby
01-28-2012, 05:25 PM
you refuse to recognize the FACT that the word of God makes it clear that God would never do such a thing, yet you would believe it anyway.
Where is it made clear that God would never ask that of someone? He did, in fact, ask that of someone.
neverending
01-28-2012, 05:38 PM
neverendings LDS misrepresentation # 4876. :D
Ironic that the more you complain about being accused of misrepresenting LDS beliefs the more you misrepresent LDS beliefs.
LOL
MAN.....you just don't read very well. I was talking about my mother's idea that God couldn't put someone back together once they had been cremated. I had always been told that the LDS didn't think highly of people being cremated. So my ideas of god came from my mother and I found her reasoning a might silly.
From and Aug. 1991 Ensign article an ***ociate professor of Church History and Doctrine asked the question about cremation.....
"Where do Latter-day Saints fit into this picture? We reaffirm the perspective that the body is good and, as a creation of God, is to be respected. But as the Church has moved into nations other than the United States, there has been recognition that cultural practices differ. Generally, Latter-day Saints in the Western world have felt that nothing should be done which is destructive to the body. That should be left to nature. Church leaders have counseled that only in unusual circumstances or where required by law should cremation take place.
Ultimately, after consultation with the Lord and with priesthood leaders, the family must decide what to do. If the person has been endowed, some special instructions are available for the family from local priesthood leaders. Even if a body is cremated, a funeral service may be held if the ashes are buried or deposited in a mausoleum.
Where there is no overriding reason to cremate, burial is still the preferred method of handling our dead. In the end, however, we should remember that the resurrection will take place by the power of God, who created the heavens and the earth".
You will have to excuse my mother, bless her soul since she's been gone 10 years now and I think she was a might confused at times.
Libby
01-28-2012, 05:51 PM
MAN.....you just don't read very well. I was talking about my mother's idea that God couldn't put someone back together once they had been cremated. I had always been told that the LDS didn't think highly of people being cremated. So my ideas of god came from my mother and I found her reasoning a might silly.
From and Aug. 1991 Ensign article an ***ociate professor of Church History and Doctrine asked the question about cremation.....
"Where do Latter-day Saints fit into this picture? We reaffirm the perspective that the body is good and, as a creation of God, is to be respected. But as the Church has moved into nations other than the United States, there has been recognition that cultural practices differ. Generally, Latter-day Saints in the Western world have felt that nothing should be done which is destructive to the body. That should be left to nature. Church leaders have counseled that only in unusual circumstances or where required by law should cremation take place.
Ultimately, after consultation with the Lord and with priesthood leaders, the family must decide what to do. If the person has been endowed, some special instructions are available for the family from local priesthood leaders. Even if a body is cremated, a funeral service may be held if the ashes are buried or deposited in a mausoleum.
Where there is no overriding reason to cremate, burial is still the preferred method of handling our dead. In the end, however, we should remember that the resurrection will take place by the power of God, who created the heavens and the earth".
You will have to excuse my mother, bless her soul since she's been gone 10 years now and I think she was a might confused at times.
That at***ude has definitely changed. I served four years as Comp***ionate Service Leader, and I did a lot of funerals. Many LDS, today, are cremated. They do a "viewing" in the casket, for the funeral, and then they are cremated afterwards.
The idea that the body should not be cremated was also a Christian belief. My grandparents and even my dad, along with most of my older relatives, were very anti-cremation.and none of them are LDS.
I understand that you would kill your wife if you thought God told you to. You said so yourself. Yet you complain to the mod when I point out what YOU said. ....-BH
.
Ah ah ah......that's not being honest.
(mod edit - NO BAITING)
MAN.....you just don't read very well. I was talking about my mother's idea that God couldn't put someone back together once they had been cremated. I had always been told that the LDS didn't think highly of people being cremated. So my ideas of god came from my mother and I found her reasoning a might silly.
I read fine. i know you said it was your mom's opinion. But before that you also said:
"Sir, there is a great difference between the God you believe in as he couldn't even put a person back together after they were cremated."
See? You were dishonest in claiming that the God I believe in is incapable of restoring a cremated person.
Your mother's opinion has no bearing on what my God can do.
;)
BrianH
01-28-2012, 06:37 PM
Where is it made clear that God would never ask that of someone? He did, in fact, ask that of someone.
Where is it made clear that God asked anyone to kill their wife, Libby?
Would you? And would you kill yourself if you thought God told you to?
-BH
.
BrianH
01-28-2012, 06:42 PM
Ah ah ah......that's not being honest.
So when YOU ask questions like this its "honest" but when I do its not?
Thanks for proving my point, "Sir"!
If you notice what "the mod" edited, it was these two comments you made:
She felt you were baiting and taunting. You know, being divisive and provocative.
Does your religion NOT teach you that you are a God?
It had nothing to do with you repeating my answer that I would do whatever God commanded me.
You were just dishonestly trying to whine that you got in trouble for something completely different.. LOL
Why is it dishonest when I ask this question, but its ...what ..."honest"? when YOU do the same thing asking the same kind of question?
Why do you live by one standard and require that I live by another?
Do you really "think" that no one can see that you are evading my question?
-BH
.
BigJulie
01-28-2012, 08:09 PM
BJ: First, who's word is it, I mean who's word is found in the Bible? If it wasn't for the Bible you wouldn't have been able to even quote these parables or even say what Christ said, when He said, "come follow me". Julie, it is ONLY through Christ that one can have ETERNAL life and IT IS those VERY Scriptures that tell us so. 1 John 5:13, do go and read it. It is the one verse that I cling to and lean on everyday.
It is a good verse--but as noted, salvation comess through the Son and therefore the scriptures lead us to Him. Hence, when God commanded Abraham to sacrifice Isaac, Abraham didn't rely on his past knowledge of God to decide what to do, but rather listened to God Himself. Once a person learns of God via the scriptures, it is a big mistake to then use the scriptures to ignore the Holy Ghost as the Pharisees and Saducees did.
Libby
01-28-2012, 08:11 PM
Where is it made clear that God asked anyone to kill their wife, Libby?
Would you? And would you kill yourself if you thought God told you to?
-BH
.
Not someone's wife, no, but he did command Abraham to sacrifice his son.
As for the question, I don't believe God would ask that, and I'm pretty sure he didn't ask Abraham to do that, either. That's my personal view.
But, I understand the underlying concept, regarding obedience to God.
BigJulie
01-28-2012, 08:12 PM
BJ: I do think you know the answer to your question. Christ could have come down off that cross at any time, NO one took his life, HE gave it up freely for you and me!! Had he come down off that cross, then we would have no hope, nothing! When our lives ended, all we would have to look forward to was Hell.....no resurrection, no Savior, nothing but outer darkness and torment. Course that is what we all deserve but our precious Savior loved us ENOUGH to come to earth, taking on a mortal body, experienced all the things men did, being tempted in every way and yet.....he took our place on that bloody cross and hung there and died. Think about it for a moment, what Christ suffered for us all. I give him praise and honor for he is worthy of it.
I to am grateful for this sacrifice too large to fully comprehend. That said, BrianH asked if we would take our own life if that was what God asked us to do. My point was, God the Father did ask Christ to do give up his life for Him, and that is exactly what He did.
Luk 22:42 Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.
Libby
01-28-2012, 08:13 PM
I to am grateful for this sacrifice too large to fully comprehend. That said, BrianH asked if we would take our own life if that was what God asked us to do. My point was, God the Father did ask Christ to do give up his life for Him, and that is exactly what He did.
Luk 22:42 Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.
That's very true. I am ashamed to admit, I didn't think of that, when someone asked the question.
BigJulie
01-28-2012, 08:18 PM
Not someone's wife, no, but he did command Abraham to sacrifice his son.
As for the question, I don't believe God would ask that, and I'm pretty sure he didn't ask Abraham to do that, either. That's my personal view.
But, I understand the underlying concept, regarding obedience to God.
Read this in Hebrew--and it is clear--if you want to believe this part of the Bible, then it reads clearly that God asked Abraham to sacrifice Isaac.
I think what is repulsive to us is not repulsive to God. Couldn't God resurrect Isaac? Couldn't God raise Isaac from the dead?
We are talking about cremating here, which is an interesting point as God (by asking Abraham to sacrifice Isaac) was basically asking him to cremate Isaac. In the offering, Isaac would have his neck slashed and all of his blood would drain out. Then, Abraham would be required to skin Isaac and then cut his body into four parts (ask about the symbolism of that some time). Then, he would burn every part of Isaac until there was nothing left on the alter. Lastly, the skin and hair would be burned separately. So, Abraham would have had to trust that Isaac would not be lost to him according to the promise given to Abraham as Isaac was the covenant child (not the only child). If you read through the whole thing, it is very clear that Isaac was to be a burnt offering to the Lord and Abraham was following the protocol as the high priest in such an offering. So, Abraham had to be very faithful in being obedient to doing this and trusting that Isaac would still be the heir or covenant child.
Libby
01-28-2012, 08:31 PM
Thanks Julie. I'll have to get back to this later.
BigJulie
01-28-2012, 08:34 PM
Thanks Julie. I'll have to get back to this later.
Libby--you might be interested to know that the Jews also do not like this story. In all of the Bible, it is never mentioned again (after the original telling) until the New Testament.
Billyray
01-28-2012, 08:46 PM
When did God the Father command Jesus Christ to give up His life? Could Christ have saved Himself?
You didn't answer my question.
Where did God command Jonah to take his own life?
BigJulie
01-28-2012, 10:09 PM
You didn't answer my question.
Where did God command Jonah to take his own life?
I never said that God commanded Jonah to take his own life, Jonah realized that if he didn't give up his life the men on the boat were in danger of losing theirs. But, did God the Father ask Jesus Christ to give up his life?---if that is your concern.
Billyray
01-28-2012, 10:20 PM
I never said that God commanded Jonah to take his own life, Jonah realized that if he didn't give up his life the men on the boat were in danger of losing theirs.
Next, what about killing yourself? If the lives of others requires you to sacrifice yourself, do you do it? Jonah did when he knew that the lives of the others on the boat were at risk and he did not leave the boat at once. He didn't say to God, I will do what you want so calm the water and I will get there eventually. Instead, he let the men on the boat know he was the problem and in a sense, gave himself over for dead. Unless you think that Jonah somehow knew that not only would he survive the ocean, but also being in the belly of a fish. And of course, Jonah was a type of Christ who also gave his life (when he had the choice not to) for others.
So Jonah took upon himself to take his own life and God never ask for him to do so?
BigJulie
01-28-2012, 10:52 PM
So Jonah took upon himself to take his own life and God never ask for him to do so?
What point are you trying to make here Billyray? God asked Christ to give his life. I think you try to split hairs when you use the term "take his own life"---unless you think that Christ took "his own life" because he sacrificed Himself for others as Jonah did. As Christ had the power to not die, well then, you decide how you want to split hairs on the definition.
Jhn 15:13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
1 John 3:16 Hereby perceive we the love [of God], because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down [our] lives for the brethren.
Does God ask you to "take your own life" when we are taught to "lay down our lives for the brethen"?
Billyray
01-28-2012, 11:02 PM
Does God ask you to "take your own life" when we are taught to "lay down our lives for the brethen"?
God has never asked me to take my own life.
BigJulie
01-28-2012, 11:22 PM
God has never asked me to take my own life.
Billyray, if there is one message throughout the whole Bible it is that faith means to follow God and do whatever He tells you to do regardless if it is not found in the pages of His previous words.
When God commanded Noah to build an ark--it wasn't written down anywhere.
When God commanded Moses to part the Red Sea, it wasn't written down anywhere.
When God asked His Son to lay down His life, it wasn't written down anywhere. (In fact, I believe this was part of the discussion on the Mount of Transfiguration).
The Pharisees and Saducees got in trouble precisely because they believed their ONLY connection to God was what was written in the Torah or p***ed down through oral traditions. If they wanted to know what to do and how to do it, they looked it up and tried to find it in writing. Then they would spend countless hours trying to decide exactly what the words mean. It never occured to them to look to God for understanding because for all practical purposes, the writings was their God.
That is why Christ teaches us that it is God the Father who testifies of HIM. It is why He teaches us of the Holy Ghost. The scriptures merely point the way to the true source of salvation--the scriptures do not save us. So, once again, if God tells you Billyray to do something--you cannot use the scriptures to declare it is not written down and therefore you can ignore it. That is the lesson of the Bible--that God will say and direct how and where He will and those who follow Him whether it be Noah or Moses or the apostles use the scriptures to know how to access Him, not to replace Him.
Libby
01-29-2012, 02:43 AM
Read this in Hebrew--and it is clear--if you want to believe this part of the Bible, then it reads clearly that God asked Abraham to sacrifice Isaac.
I think what is repulsive to us is not repulsive to God. Couldn't God resurrect Isaac? Couldn't God raise Isaac from the dead?
We are talking about cremating here, which is an interesting point as God (by asking Abraham to sacrifice Isaac) was basically asking him to cremate Isaac. In the offering, Isaac would have his neck slashed and all of his blood would drain out. Then, Abraham would be required to skin Isaac and then cut his body into four parts (ask about the symbolism of that some time). Then, he would burn every part of Isaac until there was nothing left on the alter. Lastly, the skin and hair would be burned separately. So, Abraham would have had to trust that Isaac would not be lost to him according to the promise given to Abraham as Isaac was the covenant child (not the only child). If you read through the whole thing, it is very clear that Isaac was to be a burnt offering to the Lord and Abraham was following the protocol as the high priest in such an offering. So, Abraham had to be very faithful in being obedient to doing this and trusting that Isaac would still be the heir or covenant child.
Yeah...wow....can you imagine being willing to do that to your own child? I just can't even comprehend that. I can't comprehend that God would even ask that of someone, y/k?
BrianH
01-29-2012, 05:25 AM
Not someone's wife, no, but he did command Abraham to sacrifice his son.
As for the question, I don't believe God would ask that, and I'm pretty sure he didn't ask Abraham to do that, either. That's my personal view.
But, I understand the underlying concept, regarding obedience to God.
Abraham had good reason to know that God would intervene.
If you were married to "Sir", he has stated that would kill you if he thought God told him to. Would YOU kill your friend, husband, child if you thought God told you to?
Those who know God, know that the question is absurd. The fact that "Sir" has even asked such a lame question, let alone declared that he would obey such a command, is proof that he has no discernment, no knowledge of the Word of God, and he far, FAR away from knowing God.
-BH
.
Billyray
01-29-2012, 08:04 AM
Billyray, if there is one message throughout the whole Bible it is that faith means to follow God and do whatever He tells you to do regardless if it is not found in the pages of His previous words.
I follow God by following his words to me as written in the NT. What am I lacking?
Abraham had good reason to know that God would intervene.
If you were married to "Sir", he has stated that would kill you if he thought God told him to. Would YOU kill your friend, husband, child if you thought God told you to?
False. All along the stated premis is "if I KNEW it was God who commanded me"..not if I "thought"....
Those who know God, know that the question is absurd. The fact that "Sir" has even asked such a lame question, let alone declared that he would obey such a command, is proof that he has no discernment, no knowledge of the Word of God, and he far, FAR away from knowing God.
-BH
The only thing "absurd" is that some people here are attacking the idea that someone would obey God no matter what he asked. And yet they argue it is that person who is far from knowing God. ;)
BigJulie
01-29-2012, 10:35 AM
I follow God by following his words to me as written in the NT. What am I lacking?
What did Christ tell the rich young ruler he was "lacking" when the rich young ruler expressed that he followed God by following his words as written?
Mar 10:17 ¶ And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?
Mar 10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? [there is] none good but one, [that is], God.
Mar 10:19 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother.
Mar 10:20 And he answered and said unto him, Master, all these have I observed from my youth.
Mar 10:21 Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.
Why wasn't following what this rich young man taught from his Bible (Torah) enough? The Bible is to direct us to Christ, not replace Him.
BigJulie
01-29-2012, 10:42 AM
Yeah...wow....can you imagine being willing to do that to your own child? I just can't even comprehend that. I can't comprehend that God would even ask that of someone, y/k?
But that is the point---God the Father gave His Son for us---Christ suffered and died for us. Why would God ask Abraham to do this? Because being God, even were Abraham to do this, God could bring Isaac back from the dead. This was not just an ultimate test of faith, this was also the ultimate teaching experience. We are blind to fully seeing God and He tries to show us who He is--His glory. What Abraham had said after this was all said and done was that "God sees." (Translated God will provide--but the Hebrew is God sees).
Likewise, we ask our children to do things that they have no comprehension of, but we know if they do it, their rewards will be great. They don't comprehend, they don't "see"--they don't get it..but we as parents do.
To say that Abraham knew what God was up to denies the whole point of the story and the faith of Abraham and the teaching of God. What it shows us is that "God sees" what we do not, but wants us to see.
BigJulie
01-29-2012, 10:47 AM
Abraham had good reason to know that God would intervene.
If you were married to "Sir", he has stated that would kill you if he thought God told him to. Would YOU kill your friend, husband, child if you thought God told you to?
Those who know God, know that the question is absurd. The fact that "Sir" has even asked such a lame question, let alone declared that he would obey such a command, is proof that he has no discernment, no knowledge of the Word of God, and he far, FAR away from knowing God.
-BH
.
Wow, talk about trying to turn faith of God and obedience to Him as something repulsive or wrong. You ***ume that Abraham had good reason to believe God would intervene, but there is nothing in the story to say that--in fact, the story reads just the opposite.
And this began as would you do what God tells you to do to what you THINK God tells you to do. Abraham obviously had a close enough relationship to God to know exactly who was talking to him.
None of us would ever THINK to do anything such as you suggest without absolutely knowing who is talking to us---but what an absurd question then--would you do what God told you to do if asked, even if it seemed absurd? Like building an ark---leading the children of Israel to the edge of the Red Sea when being chased by Pharoah and his army---becoming impregnated with the Son of God? All these things would seem absurd to those who THINK they are hearing God and yet perfectly obedient and faithful to those who do hear God.
Billyray
01-29-2012, 11:55 AM
What did Christ tell the rich young ruler he was "lacking" when the rich young ruler expressed that he followed God by following his words as written?
So we should sell everything that we have and give it to the poor? Is that what the LDS church and you would recommend?
Billyray
01-29-2012, 11:57 AM
Why wasn't following what this rich young man taught from his Bible (Torah) enough? The Bible is to direct us to Christ, not replace Him.
Because he thought that he worked his way to heaven by obeying the commandments yet he did not obey the commandments.
BigJulie
01-29-2012, 12:07 PM
So we should sell everything that we have and give it to the poor? Is that what the LDS church and you would recommend?
If I believe as you do that what I should do is ONLY based on the words written in the Bible, then yes...I should do this. But, since I believe that the Bible is a source that teaches us how to reach God, then what I should do is based on what God tells me to do not just through the words of the prophets as written, but also through personal revelation---something you can't do if you don't believe in personal revelation.
So, Billyray, if God directed YOU to sell all you have and give it to the poor, would you do it?
BigJulie
01-29-2012, 12:10 PM
Because he thought that he worked his way to heaven by obeying the commandments yet he did not obey the commandments.
Read it again Billyray. Listen to what the Savior says:
Mar 10:17 ¶ And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?
Mar 10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? [there is] none good but one, [that is], God.
Mar 10:19 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother.
Mar 10:20 And he answered and said unto him, Master, all these have I observed from my youth.
Mar 10:21 Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.
Who is the one who recites the commandments as a way to eternal life, is it Christ or the young man?
And when the young man replies that he does those things, does Christ say--that is not what matters, in fact it says that beholding him he "loved him" and then He ADDs to it saying that the young man needs to DO one more thing.
In other words, if you saw Christ and asked Him what you need to do for eternal ife and He said, you know the commandments (the words of the Bible) and you replied, I follow the teachings of the Bible, what do I lack (the question you asked me), Christ would ADD to that one more thing---following His words as directed to you Billyray!
Billyray
01-29-2012, 12:11 PM
So, Billyray, if God directed YOU to sell all you have and give it to the poor, would you do it?
He hasn't commanded me to do so. So what else would you recommend that I do so that I may obtain eternal life?
Billyray
01-29-2012, 12:12 PM
And when the young man replies that he does those things. . .
Do you believe the young man that he has kept ALL of the commandments?
BigJulie
01-29-2012, 12:15 PM
He hasn't commanded me to do so. So what else would you recommend that I do so that I may obtain eternal life?
So, Billyray, what has He commanded YOU to do? When you pray in humility, what does He tell YOU to do?
Billyray
01-29-2012, 12:16 PM
So, Billyray, what has He commanded YOU to do? When you pray in humility, what does He tell YOU to do?
To place my faith in him FOR salvation.
BigJulie
01-29-2012, 12:16 PM
Do you believe the young man that he has kept ALL of the commandments?
Christ did not argue with him regarding "Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother." So, I would say that the young man kept these commandments. It is interesting to not that Christ "beholding him, loved him"---and Christ teaches us that if we love Him we keep His commamdents.
BigJulie
01-29-2012, 12:17 PM
To place my faith in him FOR salvation.
And what exactly does your faith require of you? When you pray, what does God tell you, Billyray, that you need? What do you lack?
Billyray
01-29-2012, 12:18 PM
Christ did not argue with him regarding "Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother." So, I would say that the young man kept these commandments. It is interesting to not that Christ "beholding him, loved him"---and Christ teaches us that if we love Him we keep His commamdents.
Does the NT teach that we are capable of keeping all of the commandments?
Is there anything in that p***age that would suggest that this man did not really keep all of the commandments?
BigJulie
01-29-2012, 12:21 PM
Does the NT teach that we are capable of keeping all of the commandments?
Is there anything in that p***age that would suggest that this man did not really keep all of the commandments?
You are not reading the p***age Billyray, you are using your understanding that you cannot keep ALL of the commandments to believe that this young man did not keep the commandments that Christ listed to him. The young man stated that he did keep the commandments that Christ shared with him. And to this, Christ looked at him and "loved him."
Then Christ, in his love, told the young man that he lacked on thing and then told him to go DO something.
So, the question becomes Billyray, when you pray and ask God what you need, what does He tell you that you lack?
Billyray
01-29-2012, 12:27 PM
You are not reading the p***age Billyray, you are using your understanding that you cannot keep ALL of the commandments to believe that this young man did not keep the commandments that Christ listed to him. The young man stated that he did keep the commandments that Christ shared with him. And to this, Christ looked at him and "loved him."
How about you read the p***age again because obviously you are missing something.
Would someone who keeps ALL of the commandments be good?
Billyray
01-29-2012, 12:28 PM
So, the question becomes Billyray, when you pray and ask God what you need, what does He tell you that you lack?
Those who place their faith in Christ lack nothing because our sins are cleansed by Christ and his righteousness is imputed to me by faith. My works add nothing to the already finished work of Christ.
BigJulie
01-29-2012, 12:36 PM
Those who place their faith in Christ lack nothing because our sins are cleansed by Christ and his righteousness is imputed to me by faith. My works add nothing to the already finished work of Christ.
Strange then that Christ didn't say this to the young man when he asked what was necessary for eternal life. But, hey Billyray, I guess you know better than Christ on this matter. :eek:
Billyray
01-29-2012, 12:38 PM
Strange then that Christ didn't say this to the young man when he asked what was necessary for eternal life. But, hey Billyray, I guess you know better than Christ on this matter.
So is selling everything you own and giving it to the poor necessary for eternal life?
Billyray
01-29-2012, 12:44 PM
BigJ would you consider that someone who KEPT ALL of the commandments to be good?
BigJulie
01-29-2012, 12:53 PM
BigJ would you consider that someone who KEPT ALL of the commandments to be good?
Yes!
Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? [there is] none good but one, [that is], God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
That is why there is 'none good but one."
Billyray
01-29-2012, 12:57 PM
That is why there is 'none good but one."
So someone who kept ALL of the commandments is not good?
Billyray
01-29-2012, 12:58 PM
That is why there is 'none good but one."
Is thomas monson good?
BigJulie
01-29-2012, 12:59 PM
So someone who kept ALL of the commandments is not good?
The "someone" who did this is Christ and He is good.
Billyray
01-29-2012, 01:01 PM
The "someone" who did this is Christ and He is good.
So God/Christ is good and everyone else is bad.
BigJulie
01-29-2012, 01:04 PM
Is thomas monson good?
Billyray, this has already been answered by God. There is none good but God.
But do you remember that when the young man asked what was needed for eternal life, Christ gave him a list of commandments and when the young man told Christ he did all those from his youth, Christ beholding him loved him and then added one more thing.
So, when Christ answered this young man what was required for eternal life---are you trying to make a whole argument to me to prove that Christ was wrong and you are right? Is that your point with arguing about what is "good"?
BigJulie
01-29-2012, 01:05 PM
So God/Christ is good and everyone else is bad.
Are you trying to make the argument as to why you are right with regards to eternal life and why Christ was not right when He answered the rich young man in regards to what he needed to do to inherit eternal life by proving that not everyone can keep ALL of the commandments of God accept God? How does this negate what Christ told the young man?
Billyray
01-29-2012, 01:44 PM
Billyray, this has already been answered by God. There is none good but God.
So you agree that thomas monson is not good.
Billyray
01-29-2012, 01:46 PM
So, when Christ answered this young man what was required for eternal life---are you trying to make a whole argument to me to prove that Christ was wrong and you are right? Is that your point with arguing about what is "good"?
The point is that the young man did not keep the commandments like he said he did and Christ was pushing him to that conclusion. Only God is good and we are bad, and the only way that we are seen as good is by placing our faith in Christ and having his righteousness imputed to us.
Billyray
01-29-2012, 01:53 PM
Are you trying to make the argument as to why you are right with regards to eternal life and why Christ was not right when He answered the rich young man in regards to what he needed to do to inherit eternal life by proving that not everyone can keep ALL of the commandments of God accept God?
Do you really believe that Christ is teaching us in this p***age that works are what are required FOR salvation?
In John what did Christ tell us were the works that were required of us?
BigJulie
01-29-2012, 06:53 PM
The point is that the young man did not keep the commandments like he said he did and Christ was pushing him to that conclusion. Only God is good and we are bad, and the only way that we are seen as good is by placing our faith in Christ and having his righteousness imputed to us.
So, you don't think it was possible for this young man to "Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother"? Really? This is what Christ recited to him. Do you personally struggle with any of these commandments? This seem like relatively easy commandments to keep. Do you disagree?
BrianH
01-29-2012, 07:09 PM
False. All along the stated premis is "if I KNEW it was God who commanded me"..not if I "thought"....
Please explain how you can even pretend to "know" something WITHOUT "thinking" it.
When you fail, you will have proven that your accusation above is itself false.
The only thing "absurd" is that some people here are attacking the idea that someone would obey God no matter what he asked. And yet they argue it is that person who is far from knowing God. ;)
Nonsense. No one is attacking the idea of obeying God. I am attacking your identification of God. You would kill your own wife thinking "God" told you to do so. The reality is that if you knew God and someone (or something) told you to kill your wife, you would instantly KNOW it was not God giving that order. The FACT that you have made it clear that you WOULD kill your own wife is proof that you do not know God.
-BH
.
BrianH
01-29-2012, 07:20 PM
Wow, talk about trying to turn faith of God and obedience to Him as something repulsive or wrong. You ***ume that Abraham had good reason to believe God would intervene, but there is nothing in the story to say that--in fact, the story reads just the opposite.
I am not disputing obedience to God. I am pointing out the FACT that you cannot even possibly know who God IS, if you think that he told your husband to kill you.
I do not ***UME that Abraham had good reason to believe that God would intervene, I DEDUCE that from the Word of God. There is PLENTY of scripture to support that. God had appeared in a theophany to Abraham and personally promised that Isaac would be the father of the Israelite nation. You would have known that biblical FACT had you bothered to actually READ the Bible instead of the fantasy known as the Book of Mormon. As it stands, your comment above proves you have not even read it.
And this began as would you do what God tells you to do to what you THINK God tells you to do. Abraham obviously had a close enough relationship to God to know exactly who was talking to him.
Right. And unlike YOU, Abraham had FAITH in GOD, not faith in a false prophet. It was his faith in God, based on pretty darn good reasons, that allowed him to proceed on the PROMISE that God would make Isaac (a mere boy at the time) would be the source of the Israelite nation.
None of us would ever THINK to do anything such as you suggest without absolutely knowing who is talking to us---but what an absurd question then--would you do what God told you to do if asked, even if it seemed absurd? Like building an ark---leading the children of Israel to the edge of the Red Sea when being chased by Pharoah and his army---becoming impregnated with the Son of God? All these things would seem absurd to those who THINK they are hearing God and yet perfectly obedient and faithful to those who do hear God.
That's the problem Julie. You could NOT know that God told you to KILL your mate, because God does not do that. If someone or something told you to kill your husband, you SHOULD know instantaneously that this is NOT GOD. But YOU cannot know that, because you have no discernment and you do not know the Word of God nor do you have any faith in the Word of God. You believe false prophets and petty con artists. Those of us who KNOW the Word of God KNOW that The Word of God tells men to "LOVE (their) wives" as their own selves and even to give themselves for her even as Christ gave himself for the church. That is the Word of God, Julie.
Did you not know that Jesus did not KILL the church?
You should have faith in God, not Joe Smith - a twice convicted occult con artist with a trail of proven lies following him.
-BH
.
BigJulie
01-29-2012, 08:25 PM
[QUOTE=BrianH;114277]I am not disputing obedience to God. I am pointing out the FACT that you cannot even possibly know who God IS, if you think that he told your husband to kill you. Brian, this is actually a very funny line of reasoning. The first question is, would you do what God told you to do even if He told you to kill your wife? So---which is it in your example, is God doing the example--or should the average man know that God would never ask such a thing and so if then God can not be God if He asks you to kill another? I guess when God asks the Israelites to kill the Medianites including women and children, they should have not believed it was God according to your logic.
I do not ***UME that Abraham had good reason to believe that God would intervene, I DEDUCE that from the Word of God. There is PLENTY of scripture to support that. God had appeared in a theophany to Abraham and personally promised that Isaac would be the father of the Israelite nation. You would have known that biblical FACT had you bothered to actually READ the Bible instead of the fantasy known as the Book of Mormon. As it stands, your comment above proves you have not even read it. I have not only read this account, I have read it in Hebrew as well. So, aside from the insults, as far as I can tell--for ABraham to have faith in the promise might have also meant that Abraham had faith in God's ability to raise Isaac from the dead, thus not intervening in the task given to Abraham at all---and since you read the Bible, I ***ume you know that raising someone from the dead is not over the abilities of God. ;)
Right. And unlike YOU, Abraham had FAITH in GOD, not faith in a false prophet. It was his faith in God, based on pretty darn good reasons, that allowed him to proceed on the PROMISE that God would make Isaac (a mere boy at the time) would be the source of the Israelite nation. Abraham had enough faith in God that he prepared for the sacrifice and took Isaac to sacrifice him.
BrianH
01-29-2012, 08:35 PM
[QUOTE] Brian, this is actually a very funny line of reasoning. The first question is, would you do what God told you to do even if He told you to kill your wife? So---which is it in your example, is God doing the example--or should the average man know that God would never ask such a thing and so if then God can not be God if He asks you to kill another? I guess when God asks the Israelites to kill the Medianites including women and children, they should have not believed it was God according to your logic.
Funny? What's "funny" is that Mormons would actually kill someone because they thought God told them to. Those of us who know God and know the Word of God would INSTANTLY know that the one giving such an order is definitely NOT God. There is nothing in my logic that should be problematic for anyone who knows God. Those who are deceived by satan and ultimately are serving him by spreading a false gospel made of lies lack such discernment and can be made to believe just about anything - including that they should kill their own wives.
I have not only read this account, I have read it in Hebrew as well. So, aside from the insults, as far as I can tell--for ABraham to have faith in the promise might have also meant that Abraham had faith in God's ability to raise Isaac from the dead, thus not intervening in the task given to Abraham at all---and since you read the Bible, I ***ume you know that raising someone from the dead is not over the abilities of God. ;)
If you have read it at all, then you should know that Abraham acted in full ***urance that God's promise regarding Isaac was the most relyable thing in all of reality. No such ***urance is present in the premise to the above question. But you are a Mormon and as such, you lack faith in God; your faith is in Joseph Smith - a twice convicted occult con artist. You lack discernment.
Abraham had enough faith in God that he prepared for the sacrifice and took Isaac to sacrifice him.
Knowing that God would ultimately fulfill his promises regarding Isaac, which obviously could not be the case if he was dead.
-BH
.
Billyray
01-29-2012, 08:56 PM
So, you don't think it was possible for this young man to "Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother"? Really? This is what Christ recited to him. Do you personally struggle with any of these commandments? This seem like relatively easy commandments to keep. Do you disagree?
I think that this young man did not keep ALL of the commandments. If fact not a single person keeps ALL of the commandments. You don't keep the commandments. How many times do we have to go through this before you understand this J?
BigJulie
01-29-2012, 09:59 PM
I think that this young man did not keep ALL of the commandments. If fact not a single person keeps ALL of the commandments. You don't keep the commandments. How many times do we have to go through this before you understand this J?
Christ did not tell go through a list of every single commandment. As it was Jesus Christ who answered the question with the list of commandments he gave and then added one more to for the young man to do, I do not know what He didn't give YOUR answer, since you seem to think it is so much better.
Billyray
01-29-2012, 10:03 PM
. . .I do not know what He didn't give YOUR answer, since you seem to think it is so much better.
Can you rephrase your sentence it doesn't make any sense.
Billyray
01-29-2012, 10:05 PM
BTW if ALL of us are "not good" then what does that tell you about how Christ sees us with respect to keeping the commandments?
BigJulie
01-29-2012, 10:12 PM
[QUOTE=BrianH;114288]
Funny? What's "funny" is that Mormons would actually kill someone because they thought God told them to. Let me get your line of reasoning straight here Brian--first you ask us if we would follow God even if it meant killing someone, then it went to we should realize it is not God because he would never ask such a thing and now you are claim we would kill someone IF we thought it was God. Sheesh. You are the master of spin. Let's just put it this way, if I was sure it was God, I would do as He says.
Those of us who know God and know the Word of God would INSTANTLY know that the one giving such an order is definitely NOT God. Your logic would say that the Israelites should have never kiled the Medianites or Abraham should have not taken Abraham to get sacrificed.
There is nothing in my logic that should be problematic for anyone who knows God. Those who are deceived by satan and ultimately are serving him by spreading a false gospel made of lies lack such discernment and can be made to believe just about anything - including that they should kill their own wives. You are sooo funny Brian.
Lev 20:10 And the man that committeth adultery with [another] man's wife, [even he] that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.
According to your logic, the "wife" who committed adultery should not be put to death because anyone who knows God would know that to do so is Satanic, regardless of the circumstance. Is that what you are saying Brian?
Let's see...here are three examples of God in the Bible.
1) God commands the Israelites to kill all of the Medianites including infants.
2) God commands Abraham to sacrifice Isaac, his son.
3) God commands the Israelites to stone to death those who committ adultery.
Okay, now for me, I think the message of the Bible is to follow God. You think the Bible lets you know what God would do or would not do. I say, God does what He will. Does that mean I am going to go kill my spouse if I THINK it is God? Absolutely not. If I am sure it is God though, well then, I guess I can wait until the donkey tells me what to do. ;)
If you have read it at all, then you should know that Abraham acted in full ***urance that God's promise regarding Isaac was the most relyable thing in all of reality. Do you think that Abraham thought he would not need to sacrifice Isaac---and if so, why did he act in a way that was consistent with the sacrifice---why didn't Abraham just wait until God showed him something else?
Knowing that God would ultimately fulfill his promises regarding Isaac, which obviously could not be the case if he was dead. What? Are you putting limits on God? or rather what He can and cannot do?
Billyray
01-29-2012, 10:14 PM
Let's just put it this way, if I was sure it was God, I would do as He says.
Would you blood atone an apostate if asked by God to do so?
BrianH
01-29-2012, 10:18 PM
[QUOTE]Let me get your line of reasoning straight here Brian--first you ask us if we would follow God even if it meant killing someone, then it went to we should realize it is not God because he would never ask such a thing and now you are claim we would kill someone IF we thought it was God. Sheesh. You are the master of spin. Let's just put it this way, if I was sure it was God, I would do as He says....<snip>
Hold it right there Julie ...you REALLY need to improve your reading comprehension skills. I am not the one who first asked you if you would follow God even if it meant killing someone. That was your boy Mr. "Sir", not me. You REALLY need to start paying attention here, BigJ. It will help you avoid the embarr***ment you just caused yourself.
Now go back and actually READ what I said then come back when you understand it.
-BH
.
BigJulie
01-29-2012, 10:18 PM
Can you rephrase your sentence it doesn't make any sense.
You seem to think you know how Christ should have answered this man rather than the way he did. If what you say is true (and Christ always tells the truth) then why did Christ give an answer that was other than truth?...at least in your thinking.
BigJulie
01-29-2012, 10:20 PM
[QUOTE=BigJulie;114330]
Hold it right there Julie ...you REALLY need to improve your reading comprehension skills. I am not the one who first asked you if you would follow God even if it meant killing someone. That was your boy Mr. "Sir", not me. You REALLY need to start paying attention here, BigJ. It will help you avoid the embarr***ment you just caused yourself.
Now go back and actually READ what I said then come back when you understand it.
-BH
.
Yes Brian---but it is you who then ascertains that we are the one who would kill someone if we THOUGHT God told us to do it, rather than if we knew it was God who told us to do it. And the Israelites give ample evidence that God spoke to them and they did do what you think is illogical given what you know about God.
BrianH
01-29-2012, 10:24 PM
[QUOTE=BrianH;114334]
Yes Brian---but it is you who then ascertains that we are the one who would kill someone if we THOUGHT God told us to do it, rather than if we knew it was God who told us to do it. And the Israelites give ample evidence that God spoke to them and they did do what you think is illogical given what you know about God.
Please at least TRY to explain how you would even pretend to know anything without thinking it, Julie.
Then GO BACK and try to actually R E A D what I said. It is YOUR pal Mr. "Sir" who straddled you with the lame task of having to defend your willingness to kill people because you THINK God told you to.
Meanwhile those of us who know God and his word could not be fooled by such a transparent lie. YOU, on the other hand, have once again conclusivly proven just how far you are from God AND how easily you can be and ARE fooled.
-BH
.
Billyray
01-29-2012, 10:26 PM
If what you say is true (and Christ always tells the truth) then why did Christ give an answer that was other than truth?...at least in your thinking.
I don't think Christ said something that was untrue.
Libby
01-29-2012, 10:28 PM
Meanwhile those of us who know God and his word could not be fooled by such a transparent lie.
Right.....
BigJulie
01-29-2012, 10:30 PM
I don't think Christ said something that was untrue.
So, when this young man asked Christ, "what shall I do to inherit eternal life?" Did Christ tell him the truth when He answered him?
BigJulie
01-29-2012, 10:31 PM
[QUOTE=BrianH;114338
Then GO BACK and try to actually R E A D what I said. It is YOUR pal Mr. "Sir" who straddled you with the lame task of having to defend your willingness to kill people because you THINK God told you to.
.[/QUOTE] Sir never said "THINK"---that is your spin and that is my point.
Billyray
01-29-2012, 10:35 PM
So, when this young man asked Christ, "what shall I do to inherit eternal life?" Did Christ tell him the truth when He answered him?
Absolutely and He knew that he hadn't keep ALL of the commandments and He knew that he wouldn't sell everything he had and follow Him.
BrianH
01-29-2012, 10:36 PM
Sir never said "THINK"---that is your spin and that is my point.
I don't care WHAT he "said" - the FACT is you cannot "know" something WITHOUT "thinking" it. If you "think" that God told you to kill your husband, it is obvious that you do not KNOW God. You guys are just creepy on this. You would actually KILL your own spouse? You know, the Mountain Meadows M***acre was perpetrated by people just like you who THOUGHT that God told them to kill all those people. After all, the Mormon "prophet" TOLD them to do it, right?
Now please explain why you attributed Mr. "Sir's" bogus statement to ME. Have you even bothered to actually go back and see how you blew it, Julie? Are you paying attention yet?
-BH
.
BigJulie
01-29-2012, 10:38 PM
Absolutely and He knew that he hadn't keep ALL of the commandments and He knew that he wouldn't sell everything he had and follow Him.
That is not what Christ says...He said, one think he lacked. And then Christ asked the young man to DO one more thing. What do you think Christ didn't tell him to just believe He would save him and that would be enough? Why would Christ decieve the young man if that was all that was required of Him?
BigJulie
01-29-2012, 10:40 PM
[QUOTE=BrianH;114349]I don't care WHAT he "said" - the FACT is you cannot "know" something WITHOUT "thinking" it. Oh brother...this is your next spin...you can't know something until you think something?? I guess to you then, it all depends on what the meaning of "is" is. Yeah, keep trying to change this to THINK....
*sigh*
One of the tactics of Mormon critics is to argue against what you want us to be saying rather than what we are actually saying. Another is to argue against what you have been told we believe rather than what we say we believe.
Billyray
01-29-2012, 10:42 PM
That is not what Christ says...He said, one think he lacked.
I certainly don't read that as meaning that Christ believed that the man kept ALL of the commandments because nobody keeps ALL of the commandments. If this young man kept ALL of the commandments all of his life why didn't he call this young man good?
BigJulie
01-29-2012, 10:45 PM
I certainly don't read that as meaning that Christ believed that the man kept ALL of the commandments because nobody keeps ALL of the commandments. If this young man kept ALL of the commandments all of his life why didn't he call this young man good?
Billyray, you are trying to add something to the scripture that isn't there. Christ did not ask the young man if he kept ALL of the commandments. When the young man asked him what was required for eternal life, Christ gave him a list of commandments. (All of which are easy to keep btw, for a believer). Then Christ didn't go on and tell him that all he needed to do was trust that Christ would save him (as you seem to think He should of) but rather went on to add one more thing for him to do?
So, why do you think Christ did not give him the answer of just having faith and trusting God would save him? Do you think Christ lied to him or kept the truth from him?
Billyray
01-29-2012, 10:46 PM
What do you think Christ didn't tell him to just believe He would save him and that would be enough?
Faith is what is required FOR salvation and I don't think this guy had faith in Christ let alone know who HE really was. Rather he was trying to justify his salvation by his own good efforts and even in this he fell short.
BrianH
01-29-2012, 10:46 PM
[QUOTE] Oh brother...this is your next spin...you can't know something until you think something?? I guess to you then, it all depends on what the meaning of "is" is. Yeah, keep trying to change this to THINK....
*sigh*
Fallacy: Straw man. I did not say you can't know something UNTIL you think it; I asked you to explain how you can know something (specifically that God told you to kill your husband) WITHOUT thinking it. If you do not understand the difference between what I said and your misrepresentation of it, it will remain obvious that YOU are the one doing all the spin here, BJ.
One of the tactics of Mormon critics is to argue against what you want us to be saying rather than what we are actually saying. Another is to argue against what you have been told we believe rather than what we say we believe.
Until you can explain how you can even pretend to know that God wants you to kill your spouse WITHOUT that idea existing in your mind as a THOUGHT, your attempt to wiggle out of this will remain as obvious as it is ineffective.
Go ahead and explain how you can even pretend to know the voice of God if you are willing to DISOBEY his word under the pretense of knowing that he told you to kill your husband, Big J.
I can hardly wait ...though I think we both know that you will not answer.
-BH
.
Billyray
01-29-2012, 10:47 PM
Christ did not ask the young man if he kept ALL of the commandments.
Christ said "19 You know the commandments. . ." I am sure he didn't just mean some commandments and not all commandments.
BigJulie
01-29-2012, 10:49 PM
[QUOTE=BrianH;114357]
Fallacy: Straw man. I did not say you can't know something UNTIL you think it; I asked you to explain how you can know something (specifically that God told you to kill your husband) WITHOUT thinking it. Yup, keep trying to spin it Brian.
If you do not understand the difference between what I said and your misrepresentation of it, it will remain obvious that YOU are the one doing all the spin here, BJ. Another tactic you like to use, throw something back to the person who points out your lack of integrity in the discussion. Sir did not ask you what you would do if you THINK God spoke to you...he asked what you would do if you KNOW God spoke to you.
I can hardly wait ...though I think we both know that you will not answer.
-BH
.
Of course I won't because you are asking me to accept your false premise--your spin. How about start with the right premise (the true question that was asked) and we can go from there.
BigJulie
01-29-2012, 10:53 PM
Christ said "19 You know the commandments. . ." I am sure he didn't just mean some commandments and not all commandments.
So, then you state that Christ's answer to this young man who wants to know what he needs to do to inherit eternal life is to give him the commandments.
So, as in Mark, Christ said:
Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? [there is] none good but one, [that is], God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
So, your argument is that Christ must have not been telling the truth because you know it is impossible to keep the commandments? Why didn't Christ just tell this young man that all he needed to inherit eternal life was to trust Christ would save him.
Once again, you do not answer my question---do you think that Christ decieved this young man by not giving him an honest answer?
BrianH
01-29-2012, 10:56 PM
[QUOTE] Yup, keep trying to spin it Brian.
YOUR fallacious and deliberate misrepresentations do not cons***ue ME spinning anything.
Another tactic you like to use, throw something back to the person who points out your lack of integrity in the discussion. Sir did not ask you what you would do if you THINK God spoke to you...he asked what you would do if you KNOW God spoke to you.
You have yet to point out any such lack of integrity. Sir DID ask if we would kill our wives if we THOUGHT God told us to, insofar as it is IMPOSSIBLE to "know" that WITHOUT thinking it. But the entire premise is transparently lame because those of us who know God and his word, would instantly KNOW that the en***y telling us to kill our wives is obviously NOT God. YOU, on the other hand would not. Nor would you even have any basis to know that because you obviously do NOT know the word of God nor the Spirit of God.
In defending this absurd argument, you have proven that you actually WOULD kill your own husband if you THOUGHT God told you to, since you obviously cannot "know" anything without THINKING it. Don't you think you should just give up on this hopelessly indefensible position? Or are you going to go down with your burning ship?
Of course I won't because you are asking me to accept your false premise--your spin. How about start with the right premise (the true question that was asked) and we can go from there.
What is my premise, Julie? If you cannot even tell me WHAT my premise is, then you obviously have no basis for telling me its false and it remains obvious that you have been caught out in public once again trying to defend the indefensible.
Are you even reading this or are you just running on automatic here?
-BH
.
Billyray
01-29-2012, 11:02 PM
Once again, you do not answer my question---do you think that Christ decieved this young man by not giving him an honest answer?
Not at all I think Christ made this guy realize that he didn't keep the commandments.
BigJulie
01-29-2012, 11:05 PM
YOUR fallacious and deliberate misrepresentations do not cons***ue ME spinning anything. Trying to insist that to know something means the same as to think something is spin Brian.
You have yet to point out any such lack of integrity. Sir DID ask if we would kill our wives if we THOUGHT God told us to, insofar as it is IMPOSSIBLE to "know" that WITHOUT thinking it.
If you go to the original post of this thread: Sir states that a critic asked (so your spin number one is that this is Sir's question.)
The question posed by a critic (keeping names anonymous to avoid issues):
"If you knew for sure that God was speaking to you and God asked you to take out your wife into the backyard and sacrifice her would you do it?"
So, it wasn't THINK at all--but even "know for sure."
So, Brian, do you want to address this issue with any kind of honesty or do you want us to keep trying to discuss what you spin the question to be?
What is my premise, Julie? If you cannot even tell me WHAT my premise is, then you obviously have no basis for telling me its false and it remains obvious that you have been caught out in public once again trying to defend the indefensible.
First false premise: The the question was originally Sirs which it is not.
Second false premise: that "know for sure" somehow means "think."
Your spin from this is that Mormons would kill their spouse if they THINK God told them to. *sigh*
Here is the original quote by the original poster:
[QUOTE=Billyray;113013]
If you knew for sure that God was speaking to you and God asked you to take out your wife into the backyard and sacrifice her would you do it?
BigJulie
01-29-2012, 11:10 PM
Not at all I think Christ made this guy realize that he didn't keep the commandments.
So, here is a young man that Christ loves and He answers him in such a way as to send him away without knowing the truth? That is your take? Christ is out to show this young man how foolish he is rather than to show him truth?
Billyray
01-29-2012, 11:16 PM
So, here is a young man that Christ loves and He answers him in such a way as to send him away without knowing the truth? That is your take? Christ is out to show this young man how foolish he is rather than to show him truth?
My take is that this guy thought that entering heaven was based on his good works and that he thought that he actually had kept all of the commandments. It also appears from the exchange that he didn't know who Jesus really was.
BrianH
01-29-2012, 11:19 PM
[QUOTE] Trying to insist that to know something means the same as to think something is spin Brian.
No its a fact ...at least until you can support your claim by actually EXPLAINING HOW you know God wants you to kill your husband without that idea being in your mind as a thought. Your failure to even try to meet that challenge is a functional admission that even you know YOU are the one doing all the spin here.
If you go to the original post of this thread: Sir states that a critic asked (so your spin number one is that this is Sir's question.)
The question posed by a critic (keeping names anonymous to avoid issues):
That is the question, "Sir" asked. HE is the one who posed it here and HE is the one who answered it in the affirmative. And here YOU are sharing and defending his claim that he WOULD kill his spouse if "God" told him to. The problem is, both "Sir" and YOU obviously do not know God, since if you did, you would instantly know that the one telling you to kill your spouse is NOT God.
So, it wasn't THINK at all--but even "know for sure."
Explain how you can even pretend to "know for sure" that God wants you to kill your husband WITHOUT thinking it, Julie.
So, Brian, do you want to address this issue with any kind of honesty or do you want us to keep trying to discuss what you spin the question to be?
You just accused me of being dishonest. I challenge you to either support that accusation or apologize and retract it.
First false premise: The the question was originally Sirs which it is not.
First of all that is not my premise. Secondly, it most certainly was "Sir" who posed that question here in THIS thread and then ANSWERING it.
Second false premise: that "know for sure" somehow means "think."
Okay that is a premise, but you have not provided any reason to think it is false. Just REPEATING your claim when asked to support it is functional admission that you yourself know you cannot support that claim and you are obviously trying to obscure what will remain obvious until you DO support it. All you have to do now, Julie, is to explain how you can even pretend to "know" anything (much less that God wants you to kill your husband) WITHOUT that THOUGHT p***ing through your mind.
I am still waiting for you to do more than just chant your mantra and repeat the claim that I am asking you to explain.
Your spin from this is that Mormons would kill their spouse if they THINK God told them to. *sigh*
That is not "spin" it is a NECESSARY condition. Explain how you can KNOW that God wants you to kill your husband without thinking it, Julie.
-BH
.
BigJulie
01-29-2012, 11:30 PM
[QUOTE=BrianH;114381]
No its a fact ...at least until you can support your claim by actually EXPLAINING HOW you know God wants you to kill your husband without that idea being in your mind as a thought. Your failure to even try to meet that challenge is a functional admission that even you know YOU are the one doing all the spin here.
The premise of the question is that you know for sure. It is you who keeps trying to now make the question different from what it is. It doesn't matter how you know---the premise is that you "know for sure." This is just your desparate attempt to look like you weren't trying to spin it when you were.
That is the question, "Sir" asked. HE is the one who posed it here and HE is the one who answered it in the affirmative. And here YOU are sharing and defending his claim that he WOULD kill his spouse if "God" told him to. The problem is, both "Sir" and YOU obviously do not know God, since if you did, you would instantly know that the one telling you to kill your spouse is NOT God. Once again, that is not the premise of the question. The premise isn't whether or not it was God and the premise doesn't discuss how you know. The question is "if you know for sure" it is God. You keep trying to spin the question because you don't want to answer it as it stands. The only point I made is that your logic that God does not tell us to kill is not congruent with the Bible. The Israelites knew it was God and the Isrealites did what He said to do.
Explain how you can even pretend to "know for sure" that God wants you to kill your husband WITHOUT thinking it, Julie. That wasn't the question Brian. You just keep trying to spin it to what you think it should say.
You just accused me of being dishonest. I challenge you to either support that accusation or apologize and retract it. You said the Sir asked the question, which in his original post, he said a critic asked the question--he just repeated it.
First of all that is not my premise. Secondly, it most certainly was "Sir" who posed that question here in THIS thread and then ANSWERING it.
This is what you said that Sir asked:
Sir DID ask if we would kill our wives if we THOUGHT God told us to
..as this is not what he asked, your question is dishonest.
Okay that is a premise, but you have not provided any reason to think it is false. THe premise is false because if Sir meant to say "think" he would have said that rather than saying "know for sure."
I am still waiting for you to do more than just chant your mantra and repeat the claim that I am asking you to explain. I am still waiting for you to answer the question that Sir reposted from a critic. Repeating your false premise over and over again in hopes of making a point does not answer the question.
That is not "spin" it is a NECESSARY condition. Explain how you can KNOW that God wants you to kill your husband without thinking it, Julie. The is not the question. How did the Israelites KNOW it was God telling them to kill the Medianites? How did Abraham KNOW it was God who told him to sacrifice Isaac? The question isn't HOW someone knows, but rather what they do when they DO KNOW.
Billyray
01-29-2012, 11:35 PM
The question isn't HOW someone knows, but rather what they do when they DO KNOW.
Warren Jeffs "KNOWS" that God is talking to him and giving him revelation. Shouldn't he act on it?
BigJulie
01-29-2012, 11:36 PM
Warren Jeffs "KNOWS" that God is talking to him and giving him revelation. Shouldn't he act on it?
oh brother. Once again, the question wasn't THINKS, but "know for sure"---so the premise is that it is God and the person knows it is God. Then do you listen?
Billyray
01-29-2012, 11:45 PM
oh brother. Once again, the question wasn't THINKS, but "know for sure"---so the premise is that it is God and the person knows it is God. Then do you listen?
I am sure that Warren Jeffs KNOWS that it is God who is speaking to him.
Billyray
01-29-2012, 11:46 PM
Then do you listen?
I know what God has told me and that is in his word. What else is required of me for salvation?
BrianH
01-29-2012, 11:47 PM
[QUOTE]
The premise of the question is that you know for sure. It is you who keeps trying to now make the question different from what it is. It doesn't matter how you know---the premise is that you "know for sure." This is just your desparate attempt to look like you weren't trying to spin it when you were.
The premise is itself bogus since, as SHOULD be obvious to anyone who names the name of Christ, that anyone who tells you to murder your spouse is obviously NOT God. And it most certainly DOES matter, since MANY people have murdered their spouses claiming that it was God who told them to do so. Were they right, Julie? DID God tell them to murder their spouses?
Once again, that is not the premise of the question. The premise isn't whether or not it was God and the premise doesn't discuss how you know. The question is "if you know for sure" it is God. You keep trying to spin the question because you don't want to answer it as it stands. The only point I made is that your logic that God does not tell us to kill is not congruent with the Bible. The Israelites knew it was God and the Isrealites did what He said to do.
If the premise is not concerned with whether or not it was God who gives this command ...why does it ask explicitly about God supposedly telling you to kill your spouse???? You are now at that inevitable point where you are not making any sense at all.
That wasn't the question Brian. You just keep trying to spin it to what you think it should say.
It is a NECESSARY condition of the question ...that is until you can meet the challenge of explaining how you can even pretend to "know" that God wants you to kill your husband without "thinking" it.
You said the Sir asked the question, which in his original post, he said a critic asked the question--he just repeated it.
But HE is the one repeating it here as THE question HE answered. The question is not really the problem since it is obviously just a specious canard. The problem you face is your ANSWER. YOU have admitted, by defending and agreeing with "Sir's" ANSWER that HE (and you) would kill your spouses. But if you knew God at all, you would have never fallen for this to begin with. Its a stoopid question. Its your ANSWER that is truly concerning.
This is what you said that Sir asked:
..as this is not what he asked, your question is dishonest.
Pointing out a NECESSARY condition of his question is not "dishonest". It is simple, obvious clear thinking. Until YOU can explain how one can know that God wants you to kill your husband WITHOUT thinking it, it will REMAIN a NECESSARY condition of his question. Your personal accusation of my supposed dishonesty is, as usual, unsupportable and just another desperate deflection on your part. You are only fooling yourself with these lame tactics.
THe premise is false because if Sir meant to say "think" he would have said that rather than saying "know for sure."
Until you can explain how you can know that God wants you to kill your husband without that idea p***ing through your mind as a thought, the obvious will REMAIN obvious: thinking is a NECESSARY condition of knowing such a thing.
I am still waiting for you to answer the question that Sir reposted from a critic. Repeating your false premise over and over again in hopes of making a point does not answer the question.
Your claiming my premise is false is not an argument. Until you can explain how you can "know" that God wants you to kill your husband without " thinking' it, it will remain obvious that my premise is a NECESSARY condition of knowing such a thing.
he is not the question. How did the Israelites KNOW it was God telling them to kill the Medianites? How did Abraham KNOW it was God who told him to sacrifice Isaac? The question isn't HOW someone knows, but rather what they do when they DO KNOW.
Wrong. The question is not about Abraham or the Israelites. Its about ME and YOU and "Sir". etc. We are the ones to whom the question was posed. YOU have made it disturbingly clear that YOU would kill your husband and "Sir" that he would kill his wife, thereby proving that you guys do not know God or his word which explicitly prohibits you from doing what you can only "think" that God wants you to do.
I would not fall for such an obvious fake God. Nor would any Christian who knows God and his word. The sad fact is ...you would fall for it and you have made that unmistakably clear. And THAT is the fundamental difference between Mormonism and Christianity. Christians believe God and his word. Mormons do not. Mormons believe whatever the LDS church tells them to believe IF it makes them feel good at the moment.
BIG difference.
-BH
.
BigJulie
01-30-2012, 12:10 AM
[QUOTE=BrianH;114389]
The premise is itself bogus since, as SHOULD be obvious to anyone who names the name of Christ, that anyone who tells you to murder your spouse is obviously NOT God. So, to you, Billyray's question in the first place started with a false premise because God would obviously not tell someone to kill their spouse. (Do you realize that you changed the word from "kill" to "murder"---another attempt at spin. We have examples in the Bible of God telling the Isrealites to kill the Medianites. We have God telling ABraham to sacrifice Isaac and we have God telling the Isrealites to stone the wife if she is an adulteress...well, please explain your logic here.
And it most certainly DOES matter, since MANY people have murdered their spouses claiming that it was God who told them to do so. Were they right, Julie? DID God tell them to murder their spouses? You are attempting to change the question again--which is that you "know for sure that it is God"--not someone else and not that you "think" it is God.
If the premise is not concerned with whether or not it was God who gives this command ...why does it ask explicitly about God supposedly telling you to kill your spouse???? You are now at that inevitable point where you are not making any sense at all. Just asking you to address the question as asked, not what you want it to be.
It is a NECESSARY condition of the question ...that is until you can meet the challenge of explaining how you can even pretend to "know" that God wants you to kill your husband without "thinking" it. Think of it as an Israelite who just found out that their wife has committed adultery..would you stone her?
Pointing out a NECESSARY condition of his question is not "dishonest". The point I made is that those in the Bible were asked to do things that seemed illogical all of the time...hence, your NECESSARY condition is just a distraction...all you need to know to answer the question is that it is for sure God and he has asked you to do something that seems absurd and illogical.
Until you can explain how you can know that God wants you to kill your husband without that idea p***ing through your mind as a thought, the obvious will REMAIN obvious: thinking is a NECESSARY condition of knowing such a thing. As noted, for the sake of this argument, put yourself into the position of the Israelite who has just found out his wife has committed adultery. What do you do?
Wrong. The question is not about Abraham or the Israelites. Its about ME and YOU and "Sir". etc. We are the ones to whom the question was posed. YOU have made it disturbingly clear that YOU would kill your husband and "Sir" that he would kill his wife, thereby proving that you guys do not know God or his word which explicitly prohibits you from doing what you can only "think" that God wants you to do. Please stop trying to spin this Brian and just answer the question as posed.
I would not fall for such an obvious fake God. Was ABraham falling for a "fake God" or the Israelites?
BigJulie
01-30-2012, 12:11 AM
I know what God has told me and that is in his word. What else is required of me for salvation?
What has he told you Billyray? What do you lack?
Billyray
01-30-2012, 12:33 AM
What has he told you Billyray? What do you lack?
That Mormonism is false and that his teachings for us are in his word specifically the NT.
BrianH
01-30-2012, 04:58 AM
Double post. Deleted.
.
BrianH
01-30-2012, 05:19 AM
[QUOTE] So, to you, Billyray's question in the first place started with a false premise because God would obviously not tell someone to kill their spouse. (Do you realize that you changed the word from "kill" to "murder"---another attempt at spin. We have examples in the Bible of God telling the Isrealites to kill the Medianites. We have God telling ABraham to sacrifice Isaac and we have God telling the Isrealites to stone the wife if she is an adulteress...well, please explain your logic here.
First of all, since the original question failed to provide any conditions, we cannot presume any reason why "kill" and "murder" are not completely interchangeable. Yes God told the Israelites to exterminate the Medianites and Abraham to sacrifice Isaac and even the death penalty. Those are clearly defined situations and we know that it was indeed God in each case where, in each case, the specifics were clearly defined. In "Sir's" question, there are no such conditions or definitions. Under the open rubric of his question, it is impossible to distinguish between justified killing (such as self defense) and outright murder.
You are attempting to change the question again--which is that you "know for sure that it is God"--not someone else and not that you "think" it is God.
No, I am trying to get you to explain HOW one would "know" without "thinking". I can only "know" that God's supposed command to kill my wife is righteous and from God if it conforms to the word of God and the conditions of that killing conform to the parameters of His word.
Just asking you to address the question as asked, not what you want it to be.
The question AS asked makes no sense. It ***UMES that God is a murderer asking me to be the hit man. That is a false premise and requires clarification. Can you show me where the Bible tells me that God wants me to kill my wife? Or ...perhaps is that in the Book of Mormon, or the D&C...?
Think of it as an Israelite who just found out that their wife has committed adultery..would you stone her?
That is not the question that was asked. I was asked if I would kill my wife. I am not an Israelite living under the dispensation of the law. If I was an Israelite living under the dispensation of the law, I would be required to stone her because that is clearly in the Word of God and I am presuming that you mean me to be an observant and pious Jew who believes in the Word of God in your revision of the question, but I am not sure that I would. In any event, your revised question is quite different from the original.
The point I made is that those in the Bible were asked to do things that seemed illogical all of the time...hence, your NECESSARY condition is just a distraction...all you need to know to answer the question is that it is for sure God and he has asked you to do something that seems absurd and illogical.
No, not because it seems absurd and illogical but because the Word of God clearly and explicitly tells me to LOVE my wife and sacrifice myself for her as Christ gave himself for the church. I don't see how killing my wife amounts to loving her. If you can tell me how I can love my wife by killing her, go ahead.
As noted, for the sake of this argument, put yourself into the position of the Israelite who has just found out his wife has committed adultery. What do you do?
Asked and answered.
Please stop trying to spin this Brian and just answer the question as posed.
The question as posed is fallacious. But YOU fell for it. You fell for it because you lack knowledge of God and his word and therefore you have no discernment and are easily fooled by Satan.
Was ABraham falling for a "fake God" or the Israelites?
Nope.
-BH
.
BigJulie
01-30-2012, 08:35 AM
[QUOTE=BrianH;114400]
That is not the question that was asked. I was asked if I would kill my wife. I am not an Israelite living under the dispensation of the law. If I was an Israelite living under the dispensation of the law, I would be required to stone her because that is clearly in the Word of God and I am presuming that you mean me to be an observant and pious Jew who believes in the Word of God in your revision of the question, but I am not sure that I would. In any event, your revised question is quite different from the original.
Deep in the recesses of all of Brian's argument's, wading through all of the insults and putdowns, you finally find the answer to the original question. If Brian knew that God was speaking to him and he knew it was for sure God (as the Israelites did in the OT) then he would be "required to" kill his wife---BUT HE IS NOT SURE THAT HE WOULD.
I guess the Israelites took God a little more seriously than Brian does. ;)
BigJulie
01-30-2012, 08:38 AM
That Mormonism is false and that his teachings for us are in his word specifically the NT.
You didn't answer the question regarding what you lack--just another stab at Mormonism.
Well, then, if you go to him in prayer and He tells you nothing regarding Billyray--then I can only ***ume that He is not talking to you.
BrianH
01-30-2012, 08:53 AM
[QUOTE]
Deep in the recesses of all of Brian's argument's, wading through all of the insults and putdowns, you finally find the answer to the original question. If Brian knew that God was speaking to him and he knew it was for sure God (as the Israelites did in the OT) then he would be "required to" kill his wife---BUT HE IS NOT SURE THAT HE WOULD.
I guess the Israelites took God a little more seriously than Brian does. ;)
First of all, pointing out YOUR fallacies and false claims is not a "put down" it is a statement of the obvious. You put yourself down when you retreat behind irrational, contradictory and fallacious statements and false accusations and deliberate misrepresentations as you just did right here in the post to which I am now responding.
Secondly, had you been paying attention to my posts you would have noted that I provided a direct answer to the original question in my very first response. Your claim here is just another false ***ertion based either on a deliberate effort to deceive, or simply ignoranc e of the facts so easily observe by anyone who can read.
Finally, you have once again misrepresented my answer. The portions of my answer that you deceptively p****d out made my answer clear. But the portions you then re-***embled with the limp spittle of your own desperate rhetorical needs is rather different from what I actually said. Your putting words in my mouth is a deliberate effort to deceive, BigJ. You should be ashamed of yourself. Did you think I would not know what I wrote?
One need not wonder why you stoop to such blatantly obvious deceptive rhetorical tactics, Julie. Its obvious that you think you can fool someone with them. You can't. Well ...maybe you can fool some Mormons, including yourself.
Meanwhile I still await your explanation of how you think I can "know" that God has commanded to kill my wife without that idea being in my mind as a THOUGHT, where ONLY THOUGHTS can exist.
As for your answer, you have clearly demonstrated one of the PROFOUND differences between Mormonism and Biblical Christianity. You would kill your own husband thinking God told you to do so. Christians, on the other hand, absent any extraordinary circumstances would have instantl;y known that any such command could not even possibly have come from God. You lack discernment because you lack knowledge of the Word of God and you do not know the Spirit of God.
In short, as is always so clear, you have been deceived, mistaking Satan for God. He's gotcha.
-BH
.
BigJulie
01-30-2012, 09:11 AM
[QUOTE=BrianH;114412]
Finally, you have once again misrepresented my answer. The portions of my answer that you deceptively p****d out made my answer clear. But the portions you then re-***embled with the limp spittle of your own desperate rhetorical needs is rather different from what I actually said. Your putting words in my mouth is a deliberate effort to deceive, BigJ. You should be ashamed of yourself. Did you think I would not know what I wrote? I understand what you wrote...you want to separate the God from the OT from the God of today. I tried to put you into their circumstance so that I could see what you would do in that cirucmstance because I understood that in that circumstance, you would understand it was God who spoke and you would also have the circumstance in which the law required the death of the adulteress. You finally gave an answer to that circumstance. You kept asking HOW I would know it was God, but that was not the question. The question was..what would you do if you were sure it was God. Hence, I gave an exact example of the Israelites who were sure it was God and asked you to reply. It is amazing what it took to get you to answer the question when all of your accusations were removed.
Okay, that said, here you have an Israelite who, under the law, is required to kill their wife in this circumstance. You said you are not sure you would do it. I am not sure either because even though the law required it ,I would have to have more ***urance than that. So, I would pray about it.
This is the same circumstance that Abraham faced when he sent Haggar out into the desert (a sure death for her and his son). What did Abraham do? He prayed about it and got an answer to indeed send Haggar out. Did Abraham receive an answer that God would take care of her? I don't know, very likely, but really, that is not told in the story.
But Brian, your ***ertion as to who God is and what he would say or not say is not as concrete as you believe. We have instances, not a few, where God makes it clear that HE is to be listened to and that His ways is not our ways. I certainly wouldn't support a law today that said we should stone adulterers.
One need not wonder why you stoop to such blatantly obvious deceptive rhetorical tactics, Julie. Its obvious that you think you can fool someone with them. You can't. Well ...maybe you can fool some Mormons, including yourself. Brian, this type of tactic is something you use all of the time. When you want an answer to a question---any answer we give will not suffice...you say things such as "irrelevant" etc. So, to all of your premises of the question, I saw them as irrelevant. I wanted to know what you would do if YOU for sure knew it was from God. Hence, I just gave you the circumstance of the Israelite who knew and also had been given a circumstance in which to do just that.
Meanwhile I still await your explanation of how you think I can "know" that God has commanded to kill my wife without that idea being in my mind as a THOUGHT, where ONLY THOUGHTS can exist. Let's say that God comes to you in person...parts the Red Sea, performs other miracles, etc. etc. as he did with Moses--would that be enough to convince you it was God speaking to you. Let's say it is not an thought, as God is speaking in a loud voice to you as He did with Abraham or Moses. Let's say that when He comes, He shows you the prints in His hands and feet and makes sure that you know he is the resurrected Lord. YOu never had a thought about it before and this from God is absolutely repulsive to you (as it would be for me as well)..then what---do you ignore Him?
As for your answer, you have clearly demonstrated one of the PROFOUND differences between Mormonism and Biblical Christianity. You would kill your own husband thinking God told you to do so. Your spin again...not thinking..."know for sure"---you keep wanting to change this to fit what you hope we asked rather than what we really asked.
Christians, on the other hand, absent any extraordinary circumstances would have instantl;y known that any such command could not even possibly have come from God. Why didn't the Israelites know?
Billyray
01-30-2012, 10:17 AM
You didn't answer the question regarding what you lack--just another stab at Mormonism.
Here was your question
What has he told you Billyray? What do you lack?
And here was my answer
That Mormonism is false and that his teachings for us are in his word specifically the NT.
BrianH
01-30-2012, 10:34 AM
[QUOTE] I understand what you wrote...you want to separate the God from the OT from the God of today. I tried to put you into their circumstance so that I could see what you would do in that cirucmstance because I understood that in that circumstance, you would understand it was God who spoke and you would also have the circumstance in which the law required the death of the adulteress. You finally gave an answer to that circumstance. You kept asking HOW I would know it was God, but that was not the question. The question was..what would you do if you were sure it was God. Hence, I gave an exact example of the Israelites who were sure it was God and asked you to reply. It is amazing what it took to get you to answer the question when all of your accusations were removed.
You clearly do NOT understand what I said, or you have deliberately tried to misrepresent what I said. You said "If Brian knew that God was speaking to him and he knew it was for sure God (as the Israelites did in the OT) then he would be "required to" kill his wife---BUT HE IS NOT SURE THAT HE WOULD". That is not what I said. What I said was that if I was an Israelite living under the dispensation of the law, I would indeed have an obligation to obey the law and kill my wife. But that is not the question being asked here. No such conditions were ever stated in the orginal question as anyone who can read can see for themselves. You seem to think that no one can actually READ.
I guess the Israelites took God a little more seriously than Brian does.
False. The Israelites have the word of God which gives the precise conditions of the law which lack from the original question you are now avoiding to advance your deliberate deceptions, Julie.
Okay, that said, here you have an Israelite who, under the law, is required to kill their wife in this circumstance. You said you are not sure you would do it. I am not sure either because even though the law required it ,I would have to have more ***urance than that. So, I would pray about it.
Okay. I am sure your husband is glad to hear that you would not kill him if, for example, the LDS "prophet" told him to as Brigham Young told the Mormon Danites to kill those who p***ed through the Mountain Meadows territory that they regarded as their own.
This is the same circumstance that Abraham faced when he sent Haggar out into the desert (a sure death for her and his son). What did Abraham do? He prayed about it and got an answer to indeed send Haggar out. Did Abraham receive an answer that God would take care of her? I don't know, very likely, but really, that is not told in the story.
No its not.
But Brian, your ***ertion as to who God is and what he would say or not say is not as concrete as you believe. We have instances, not a few, where God makes it clear that HE is to be listened to and that His ways is not our ways. I certainly wouldn't support a law today that said we should stone adulterers.
Well there again is the difference between you as a Mormon and me as a Christian. I have good reason to belive that the word of God is entirely concrete and I have all necessary and sufficient reason to place my faith in God and His holy Word. YOU can only chirp about how what God has said is "not concrete" as I think it is. You remind me of Satan. He too tries to weakly insinuate that God's word is not trustworthy.
Brian, this type of tactic is something you use all of the time. When you want an answer to a question---any answer we give will not suffice...you say things such as "irrelevant" etc. So, to all of your premises of the question, I saw them as irrelevant. I wanted to know what you would do if YOU for sure knew it was from God. Hence, I just gave you the circumstance of the Israelite who knew and also had been given a circumstance in which to do just that.
Yes pointhing out your false accusations, empty excuses and deceptive rhetoric is indeed a tactic I use all the time. Your dismissal of my identificaion of your falsehoods does not cons***ute a defense for your claims. Its just the usual avoidance. I expect nothing more. I am only trying to get YOU to demonstrate the vacuity of your entire apologetic - a task at which you excell, though I do not expect or require that you recognize how effective you are.
Let's say that God comes to you in person...parts the Red Sea, performs other miracles, etc. etc. as he did with Moses--would that be enough to convince you it was God speaking to you. Let's say it is not an thought, as God is speaking in a loud voice to you as He did with Abraham or Moses. Let's say that when He comes, He shows you the prints in His hands and feet and makes sure that you know he is the resurrected Lord. YOu never had a thought about it before and this from God is absolutely repulsive to you (as it would be for me as well)..then what---do you ignore Him?
No. I would not ignore him because the entire process you just described would BY DEFINITION entail me NOT ignoring him. Would I kill my wife because this en***y then turned from all these signs and wonders and ordered me to to do so? Nope. Because I know from the Word of God
Your spin again...not thinking..."know for sure"---you keep wanting to change this to fit what you hope we asked rather than what we really asked.
Until you can explain how I can "know for sure" that God wants me to kill my wife without that knowledge existing as a thought, your claim of "spin" remains as empty and meaningless as ever.
Why didn't the Israelites know?
They DID know.
-BH
.
alanmolstad
01-30-2012, 11:49 AM
[QUOTE=BigJulie;114413]
You clearly do NOT understand what I said, .....
.
you could post this at the beginning of all your posts too...
actually you could post this and end there as everything you wrote after it is also not going to be understood as well....
BigJulie
01-30-2012, 11:59 AM
[QUOTE=BrianH;114418]
You clearly do NOT understand what I said, or you have deliberately tried to misrepresent what I said. You said "If Brian knew that God was speaking to him and he knew it was for sure God (as the Israelites did in the OT) then he would be "required to" kill his wife---BUT HE IS NOT SURE THAT HE WOULD". That is not what I said. What I said was that if I was an Israelite living under the dispensation of the law, I would indeed have an obligation to obey the law and kill my wife. But that is not the question being asked here. That is the question I asked you---to put yourself in their shoes to see how you would respond in like circumstance.
Okay. I am sure your husband is glad to hear that you would not kill him if, for example, the LDS "prophet" told him to as Brigham Young told the Mormon Danites to kill those who p***ed through the Mountain Meadows territory that they regarded as their own. Yes, another attempt to change the subject with your subjective view point of my religion. *sigh*
You remind me of Satan. He too tries to weakly insinuate that God's word is not trustworthy. Nope, I believe God's word is trustworthy--I am just trying to ascertain how you determine which part of God's word you believe. I also notice you cannot make a point without throwing in ample insults-which seems more unchristian than anything I am doing here.
No. I would not ignore him because the entire process you just described would BY DEFINITION entail me NOT ignoring him. Would I kill my wife because this en***y then turned from all these signs and wonders and ordered me to to do so? Nope. Because I know from the Word of God Okay---so here we are at the heart of the matter----even if you saw "an en***y" that performed miracles, showed you the prints in his hands, etc....if he went against what you know God to be, then, according to you, it surely must not be God. But then, why didn't the Israelites come to this same conclusion?
They DID know. So, the question becomes HOW did the Israelites know? Didn't they also have the command "thou shalt not kill"? Wouldn't that make them, like you, question "the en***y" as you call it that would then ask them to kill even after seeing the miracles and hearing God's voice to let's say, kill the Medianites (including children), or Abraham hearing the voice of God telling Him to sacrifice Abraham? I mean, wasn't it Abraham who went against child sacrifices because God had told him this was wrong? Certainly then, using your logic, Abraham should have known this "en***y" telling him to sacrifice Isaac was not God.
BrianH
01-30-2012, 12:41 PM
[QUOTE] That is the question I asked you---to put yourself in their shoes to see how you would respond in like circumstance.
You changed the question. The original question did not put me in anyone's shoes.
Yes, another attempt to change the subject with your subjective view point of my religion. *sigh*
I am not changing the subject at all. I simply complimented you on not deciding to kill your husband as the Danites killed the non-Mormons at Mountain Meadows believing God told them to. Nothing subjective there, either. It would help your credibility if you would learn the meaning of your words BEFORE you use them in public.
Nope, I believe God's word is trustworthy--I am just trying to ascertain how you determine which part of God's word you believe. I also notice you cannot make a point without throwing in ample insults-which seems more unchristian than anything I am doing here.
If you believed God's word was trustworthy as do I, then you would not have to ask "which part" of it I believe. Your own behavior is what is insulting you, Julie. I am simply pointing it out. You can call me "unchristian" all you like if it makes you feel better, but all you are doing in the process is demonstrating your own duplicity.
Okay---so here we are at the heart of the matter----even if you saw "an en***y" that performed miracles, showed you the prints in his hands, etc....if he went against what you know God to be, then, according to you, it surely must not be God. But then, why didn't the Israelites come to this same conclusion?
The one true God, the God of Truth does not contradict himself. Imaginary Gods like he Gods of the Mormons contradict themselves all the time. If someone showed up and did miracles and told me to do that which contradicts what God said in his word, I would instantly know its not God. That is the difference between you and me. I believe the word of God, you would believe signs and wonders instead of the word of God. But signs and wonders are easily faked by Satan and, in fact, are one of the things that God tells us will occur in the last days. As for the Israelites, they had the word of God too. And unlike you, they believed it.
So, the question becomes HOW did the Israelites know? Didn't they also have the command "thou shalt not kill"? Wouldn't that make them, like you, question "the en***y" as you call it that would then ask them to kill even after seeing the miracles and hearing God's voice to let's say, kill the Medianites (including children), or Abraham hearing the voice of God telling Him to sacrifice Abraham? I mean, wasn't it Abraham who went against child sacrifices because God had told him this was wrong? Certainly then, using your logic, Abraham should have known this "en***y" telling him to sacrifice Isaac was not God.
The Israelites were NOT not commanded to murder their wives. I AM commanded to love my wife as Christ loved the church and gave himself for her. Jesus did not murder the church. He gave himself for it.
-BH
.
BigJulie
01-30-2012, 02:32 PM
[QUOTE=BrianH;114431]
You changed the question. The original question did not put me in anyone's shoes. It did--it put you in the shoes of someone who knows for sure it is God---that was how the original question was posed. I merely tried to help you by seeing that there were circumstances in which a believer was faced with this same dilemma in the OT.
If you believed God's word was trustworthy as do I, then you would not have to ask "which part" of it I believe. Your own behavior is what is insulting you, Julie. I am simply pointing it out. You can call me "unchristian" all you like if it makes you feel better, but all you are doing in the process is demonstrating your own duplicity. I ask which part because you state that God would never command us to kill our wives---as we have an example of that in the OT in regards to the adultering wife, I have to wonder if you do not believe that part of the Bible.
The one true God, the God of Truth does not contradict himself. I agree, but to me the non-contradiction comes in the form that when God speaks, you do--not that God tells the same thing to you as he does to the OT Israelites or you would believe that you needed to stone your wife if she committed adultery--which I am ***uming you don't believe.
I believe the word of God, you would believe signs and wonders instead of the word of God. But signs and wonders are easily faked by Satan and, in fact, are one of the things that God tells us will occur in the last days. As for the Israelites, they had the word of God too. And unlike you, they believed it. So, to you the Israelites had the word of God as well as God Himself. Is that the same God who told them "thou shalt not kill"? How do you think they dealt with this? How do you think Abraham dealt with God telling him to sacrifice Isaac on one hand and then telling Abraham that child sacrifices were wrong on the other hand. How do you think Abraham knew it was still God in this circumstance?
The Israelites were NOT not commanded to murder their wives. I AM commanded to love my wife as Christ loved the church and gave himself for her. Jesus did not murder the church. He gave himself for it.
-BH You have completely ignored the fact that they were told to stone their wives if she was caught in adultery. (Do you realize that you keep changing the wording...first from "know for sure" to "think" and now from "kill" to "murder.") And you ignore the example of Abraham. Let's just use the example of Abraham--how did Abraham know it was for sure God who was telling him to sacrifice Isaac, since God had told him previously that child sacrifices were wrong?
BrianH
01-30-2012, 03:09 PM
[QUOTE] It did--it put you in the shoes of someone who knows for sure it is God---that was how the original question was posed. I merely tried to help you by seeing that there were circumstances in which a believer was faced with this same dilemma in the OT.
It did put me in someone else's shoes? Okay ...supposed you support yoru claim for once. Here is the original question: ""If you knew for sure that God was speaking to you and God asked you to take out your wife into the backyard and sacrifice her would you do it?" Show me the words here that place me in anyone else's shoes, in particular the shoes YOU tried to put me in when you re-wrote the question.
I ask which part because you state that God would never command us to kill our wives---as we have an example of that in the OT in regards to the adultering wife, I have to wonder if you do not believe that part of the Bible.
The original question stipulated nothing about adultry or any other crime. Nor, by the way, does the Old Testament tell us that the husband must kill his own wife for the crime of adultery. So your little rabbit trail, as usual, goes nowhere.
I agree, but to me the non-contradiction comes in the form that when God speaks, you do--not that God tells the same thing to you as he does to the OT Israelites or you would believe that you needed to stone your wife if she committed adultery--which I am ***uming you don't believe.
Your ***umptions are, as usual, wrong. I see no injuntions from God anywhere in the Bible telling me to kill my wife or anyone else, for that matter.
So, to you the Israelites had the word of God as well as God Himself. Is that the same God who told them "thou shalt not kill"? How do you think they dealt with this? How do you think Abraham dealt with God telling him to sacrifice Isaac on one hand and then telling Abraham that child sacrifices were wrong on the other hand. How do you think Abraham knew it was still God in this circumstance?
God told the Israelites to not murder. That is not the same thing as telling them to not kill. The original question posed in the OP makes no such distinction. It simply asks, as I have now repeatedly shown you, if I would kill my wife? In answer to the original question, as written (and which I guess I mistook for meaning what it said), the answer remains: "NO". Abraham is not being questioned here. I am. You are. You have made it clear that you would BOTH kill your (husband) AND you would NOT kill him. You seem confused. Meanwhile, I would know that any one claiming to be God who ordered me to kill my wife was clearly NOT God. I know that because I not God and I know his word. You cannot make that claim, because you apparently cannot tell the difference between God and Satan. You only fly by your emotions and the signs you seek.
You have completely ignored the fact that they were told to stone their wives if she was caught in adultery. (Do you realize that you keep changing the wording...first from "know for sure" to "think" and now from "kill" to "murder.") And you ignore the example of Abraham. Let's just use the example of Abraham--how did Abraham know it was for sure God who was telling him to sacrifice Isaac, since God had told him previously that child sacrifices were wrong?
I did not ignore anything. The original question provides no stipulations or conditions that in any way even hint at adultery or any other capital crimes. In answering the question I was asked, I have no obligation to answer DIFFERENT questions about OTHER people killing THEIR wives under stipulations and conditions not given to me. Your pretending that I DO have such an obligation and your repeated attempts to CHANGE the question only demonstrates your inabliltiy to understand the problem you face here in the original question as written.
-BH
.
BigJulie
01-31-2012, 03:08 PM
I did not ignore anything. The original question provides no stipulations or conditions that in any way even hint at adultery or any other capital crimes. In answering the question I was asked, I have no obligation to answer DIFFERENT questions about OTHER people killing THEIR wives under stipulations and conditions not given to me. Your pretending that I DO have such an obligation and your repeated attempts to CHANGE the question only demonstrates your inabliltiy to understand the problem you face here in the original question as written.
-BH
.
That fact that you won't address direct comparisons which show a flaw in your logic show that you want to keep this as narrowly defined as possible because to say "son" instead of "wife" causes you too much grief.
Billyray
01-31-2012, 04:43 PM
You have completely ignored the fact that they were told to stone their wives if she was caught in adultery.
And that was the command under the law. We are not under the law J. We are under the law of love.
Libby
01-31-2012, 07:35 PM
We are under the law of love.
Really? That doesn't show very well, in some of the posts around here. ;)
BrianH
01-31-2012, 09:06 PM
That fact that you won't address direct comparisons which show a flaw in your logic show that you want to keep this as narrowly defined as possible because to say "son" instead of "wife" causes you too much grief.
There is nothing direct about your comparison. In fact its entirely different. I am not a Jew living under the law. Moreover, even if I was, law nowhere demands of a man that he kill his own wife, even for a capital crime. So in fact YOUR additional question is a total revision of the original. And even under that revision, the answer remains no - I would not kill my wife for adultery because the word of God nowhere says I should.
-BH
.
BigJulie
01-31-2012, 09:47 PM
And that was the command under the law. We are not under the law J. We are under the law of love.
Yes, and the fact that you are not under the law of Moses shows that God does not give you the same law as He gave to the Israelites. So, the question is posed, what if you knew for sure it was God and God told you to kill your wife (as they were under the law of Moses for committing adultery)? Two questions come about by this. 1) How would you know for sure it was God and 2) How would you respond.
For the first, the Israelites had Moses who lead them and they had many miracles come to p***---the parting of the Red Sea, just to name one. If you had experiences like that, would you believe it was God talking to you? Or to your leader?
Second, if you had experiences like that, would you follow God even if the direction was different from what you had previously?
Billyray
01-31-2012, 10:36 PM
So, the question is posed, what if you knew for sure it was God and God told you to kill your wife (as they were under the law of Moses for committing adultery)?
I know that since the Law was abolished and Christ gave us the law of love that I am not to kill my wife or child. Period.
Billyray
01-31-2012, 10:39 PM
Second, if you had experiences like that, would you follow God even if the direction was different from what you had previously?
I realize that the devil can manufacture signs and miracles that can deceive and if something or someone lead me away from what was clearly taught in the NT then this was a false prophet. BTW there will be two prophets that will come and we are told exactly what to look for.
Russianwolfe
02-01-2012, 07:00 AM
I know that since the Law was abolished and Christ gave us the law of love that I am not to kill my wife or child. Period.
So the final word from Billyray, is that if God told him something that he could not find support for in the Bible, he would disobey God!!! Billyray now claims that God is inferior to Billyray's undestanding of the Bible!!! It is now confirmed that Billyray is a Biblialitor, one who worships the Bible.
Marvin
Russianwolfe
02-01-2012, 07:05 AM
I realize that the devil can manufacture signs and miracles that can deceive and if something or someone lead me away from what was clearly taught in the NT then this was a false prophet. BTW there will be two prophets that will come and we are told exactly what to look for.
Now you are changing the premise of the question, again! The premise of the question is that it would be God who asks you to do something. No other being is possible in this question. For you to make claims about devil or Satan is a major change to the premise of the question and violates the question. You are not answering the question that was asked but a question of your own invention and attempting to deceive us with your answer. Of course you are attempting to deceive us. You are answering a different question than the one posed but are claiming that you are answer the question that was asked. That is pure deception.
Marvin
alanmolstad
02-01-2012, 09:07 AM
(Every once in a while, I like to dip my toe into a topic I have not seen much change in over page after page of comments, just to watch the ripples)
"Lets say you totally believe it's God, and leave it at that...
now back to the question-
If you saw your God making a rock so big he could not lift it, would you do the same thing?....Yes or No?
another way to look at this issue?
There are for the most part, 2 types of CULTS in the world.
There are CULTS that are run by some type of organization.
And there are CULTS that are run by a single all-powerful guy, who controls people under him.
The 1st type we can look to the JWs to see what they are like.
The 2nd type we can look to groups like the one run by David Koresh.
Now the deal with CULTS that run by a David Koresh or a Charles Manson is that sooner or later its normal for them to start getting younger and younger girls into their bed. It's actually one of the outward signs of being in a CULT if you notice that the person who is the head of the religion, who represents God's revelation to you, starts to invite other women to his bed....
As far as I know, sooner or later it always comes down to....."bed, bed, bed"
They even do this openly as part of their religion.
If questioned about the correctness of sexually molesting a 11 or 12 year old girl the leader of a CULT normally says "It's God's Command!"
and the girls believe this
and their parents believe this
Everyone in the CULT can totally believe this too.
"It's God's Command...."
If a person truly believes 100% that God has commanded the sexually molesting of infants and small children, how does a normal person of faith start to convince them different?
What type of religious/moral foundation is there that you can stand on as you attempt to convince a parent that it is not God's command that they allow their own children to be so abused?
The sad part in this, is that the example Im talking about here is not just hypothetical....it has happened, heck just look at the sad case of Elizabeth Smart.
The little girl was raped by woman's husband,. while that wife ***umed this was "God's Command" and did not lift a finger to stop it.
How do you convince a person that it was not God's command, when by their own actions that have more than proved that they are 100% convinced it was god's command?
What do you say to a person that is completely convinced that they are listening to the one true God Almighty commanding them to turn over children to be sexually abused by the leader of their religion?
What are you going to say to them?
Are you going to stand there and tell them to "Pray about it"......NO!.....You are going to have to try a bit harder than that my friends...
But what do you base your counter argument on?
------------------------
I deal a lot with the outreach to the CULTS, mostly reaching out to members of, or people with family in the JWs.
The JWs dont believe in the same God I do.
The JWs dont believe in the same Jesus as I do.
The JWs dont believe in the same resurrection that I do, or in the same Kingdom of God that I do, nor in the idea as to who goes to heaven and who will not.
So clearly the JWs are a different religion.
yet, when Im called to go speak to a JW that is meeting with a family in my church and I'm seeking to help this JW find the true Jesus, I have to find some type of foundation where I can stand on.....
I use the bible.
The Bible is my foundation.
I base my message, on only what I can see the Bible teaching.
The person inside the CULT is not so limited in what they can use to support their views.
They can invent things
They can lie
They can write their own version of the bible, and change it to fit their views.
They can come up with a different bible, or have a single guy in charge of doctrine or organization that interprets God's Commands for them.
They can appeal to dreams as their final authority.
Or to personal opinions.
or to lucky dice.
There is no limit to things the person in the CULT can use to serve as their support for their teachings.
I only am allowed to use the bible.
The person in the CULT says "God told them to molest children"
My counter argument is centered only with the text of the bible.
My argument against their God, is based on what the bible teaches us about the nature of God.
In many ways this does put me at a disadvantage.
for they can say, "God told me so, I know it was the real God and I trust God 100%"
If the person is claiming a real personal revelation its hard for me to say "It never happened", because they are clearly convinced that '"something" did happen.
all I can say to counter that is that , "The God of the Bible would not say such a thing, nor could say such a thing"
It's the same logic as is found in our conclusions when we had a look at the question, If God is all powerful, can he make a rock so big he cant lift it? The answer in both situations is that God can not do something that runs counter to His nature, as given to us in the Bible's revelation of Him.
That is the answer....
it would not really matter how sure they were that it was truly God that told them to do such evil things against children.
My argument against them has to be based out of the text, and has to center around the Bible's teachings about the nature of God...and that god can not act counter to this revelation that is already given.
I understand that the person in the CULT is absolutely convinced they they heard God speak to them.
I understand that they are 100% sure that it was God that told them to do these things, and to believe these things...
.
All I can do is show them that whatever they heard and no matter how convinced they are it was of god, , it could not be of God of the Bible, for it runs counter to the revelation we have of God in the Bible."
So Alan, in the real world how does this work out when talking to a Mormon or a Moonie or any of the many other religions that claim to be "Christian" ?
My answer to that question is that , While it would be nice to be able to sit down with a member of a CULT and show them via magic paperwork and magic videos, that they did not hear the true God speak to them, in most cases it's a little late for that effort.
Most of the time the person trapped in a CULT has put all of their trust in the testimony of the long-dead CULT's leader and his claim to have received a message from the One true god.
It's a little late for trying to convince anyone that their dead leader didnt receive a vision.....
All I can do is show by the scriptures that their dead leader's revelation runs counter to the bible's revelation, and that the bible teaches us that God can not ever say even one word that goes against what He has already revealed to us in the scriptures.
The Bible is not man's interpretation of God's revelations
The Bible IS GOD"S revelation to man.
The Bible is GOD's Word....
Thus there is ZERO CHANCE that any future revelations from God will go against the revelation we have already received from that same Lord...
So it doesn't matter how sure I am that God is speaking to me
If the revelation is in disagreement with God's revelation?, Then it's the wrong god!........
Billyray
02-01-2012, 11:29 AM
Now you are changing the premise of the question, again! The premise of the question is that it would be God who asks you to do something. No other being is possible in this question.
Marvin
Then I am sure you would be happy to answer this hypothetical question. If God told you to reject him and worship satan would you do it?
Billyray
02-01-2012, 11:32 AM
You are answering a different question than the one posed but are claiming that you are answer the question that was asked. That is pure deception.
Marvin
Actually Marvin in case you forgot I already answered that question.
Absolutely. In fact he did. When I was LDS I had a false understanding of the Bible and God opened up my eyes and showed me that Mormonism is false and that is when I left for Biblical Christianity
BigJulie
02-01-2012, 08:43 PM
I realize that the devil can manufacture signs and miracles that can deceive and if something or someone lead me away from what was clearly taught in the NT then this was a false prophet. BTW there will be two prophets that will come and we are told exactly what to look for.
Isn't this the reason the Pharisees rejected Christ, even while He was performing extraordinary miracles?
Jhn 8:49 Jesus answered, I have not a devil; but I honour my Father, and ye do dishonour me.
Billyray
02-01-2012, 08:46 PM
Isn't this the reason the Pharisees rejected Christ, even while He was performing extraordinary miracles?
Not all of the Pharisees rejected Christ.
John 3
Jesus Teaches Nicodemus
1 Now there was a Pharisee, a man named Nicodemus who was a member of the Jewish ruling council. 2 He came to Jesus at night and said, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the signs you are doing if God were not with him.”
Russianwolfe
02-02-2012, 09:46 PM
Then I am sure you would be happy to answer this hypothetical question. If God told you to reject him and worship satan would you do it?
What is your evidence that God has ever asked this of any other person? I don't deal in ridiculous hypotheticals. Get real. Or get out.
Marvin
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