Personal Anecdotal Stories Do Not Make a Church True or Untrue

[Libby]

I have noticed that some people like to use their own personal anecdotal stories to try and prove a point about the LDS Church. Do personal stories really make a church (any church) true or not true? I don't think so.

I've had both good and bad experiences with people, in every single church I've ever been ***ociated with (and that's many, I'm here to tell ya! :)). I'm a seeker and I've been in and out of a lot of churches. There are good and bad people in every church, although, I must say, my experiences, in most churches (including the LDS Church) were all very good. I have come to believe in the law of attraction...that we attract what we, ourselves, project. I try to see the good in people, even when it's not obvious. I believe that has helped shape some of my experiences. But, those experiences with people (good or bad) are not really the determining factor in whether or not a church is teaching truth.

The basic question is how do you determine spiritual truths?

I know non-LDS Christians will point to the Bible. And, I think Latter-day Saints will point to revelation or Holy Ghost witness. But, how do you know if you are interpreting the Bible correctly (for Christians) or that your "witness" is really from God (to LDS).

I have my own ideas, but I'd like to hear yours.

Please, let's not allow this thread to get contentious. Listen to one another and have a real conversation.

[Billyray]

Do personal stories really make a church (any church) true or not true? I don't think so.


Nor does my beliefs prove or disprove the truthfulness of the LDS church--yet you seemed to believe that they did. What a double standard Libby.

[BigJulie]

Thank you for this post Libby. Yes, I agree, we can find good and bad everywhere and in every faith.

I have an evangelical friend who was in the middle of a law suit with a Mormon at the same time his own evangelical church was falling apart and was on the attack of his family. He said something very wise to me. He said, "I have learned that here are good and bad Mormons and there are good and bad "christians'."

I really struggle on this board when anyone ever says "Mormons..."and then stereotypes all of us into one big lump. We are all individuals. We all think for ourselves (regardless of any arguments otherwise) and we all have our own reasons for thinking and feeling as we do.

[Libby]

Thank you for this post Libby. Yes, I agree, we can find good and bad everywhere and in every faith.

I have an evangelical friend who was in the middle of a law suit with a Mormon at the same time his own evangelical church was falling apart and was on the attack of his family. He said something very wise to me. He said, "I have learned that here are good and bad Mormons and there are good and bad "christians'."

I really struggle on this board when anyone ever says "Mormons..."and then stereotypes all of us into one big lump. We are all individuals. We all think for ourselves (regardless of any arguments otherwise) and we all have our own reasons for thinking and feeling as we do.

Thanks for the response, Julie. Yes, stereotyping is never a good thing. Always unfair and mostly inaccurate, when a whole group of people is broad brushed with the same wide brush. LDS, like all other groups, are very diverse.

[Libby]

Nor does my beliefs prove or disprove the truthfulness of the LDS church--yet you seemed to believe that they did. What a double standard Libby.

Sorry, I'm not following you, Billy. I don't recall saying "your" beliefs proved or disproved anything.

[Billyray]

Sorry, I'm not following you, Billy. I don't recall saying "your" beliefs proved or disproved anything.
Then why should I answer questions about what I believe since it makes no difference in proving Mormonism true or false? Don't you remember talking about this?

[Libby]

Then why should I answer questions about what I believe since it makes no difference in proving Mormonism true or false? Don't you remember talking about this?

Not exactly in the way you are putting it, no. But, that's really beside the point, as "beliefs" are not the same as anecdotal stories. I'm talking about the he/she done me wrong, kind of stories, bringing them into a conversation, as if that proves something about "the church".

Do you think those kinds of stories prove a church is true or untrue?

Is there a church out there with all perfect people? I sure haven't found it yet.

[Billyray]

Do you think those kinds of stories prove a church is true or untrue?


Nope.

Do you think that my beliefs makes the LDS church true or false?

[Libby]

Nope.

Do you think that my beliefs makes the LDS church true or false?

Not sure what you mean. Belief is a multi-sided issue. On the one hand, beliefs, alone, do not make something true. On the other hand, our "beliefs" (true or false) can certainly create a personal reality that has some truth to it.

On the "third" hand :) there really is no absolute truth in this three dimensional world of duality. It's all ying and yang...delusion...from a certain perspective (from God's perspective).

[Billyray]

Not sure what you mean.

You know exactly what I mean.

[Libby]

You know exactly what I mean.

No, I don't.

[Billyray]

No, I don't.

Sure you do.

[Libby]

Sure you do.

I do remember, to what you were referring, now. You have said, a couple of times, in response to questions about your beliefs, that your beliefs have no bearing on whether or not Mormonism is true.

You have to forgive me, as I really do, sometimes, forget conversations, and need a reminder. I am very busy with other things, plus I am older and my memory is not as good as it used to be. Sometimes, it needs a little jolt! :)

I am, fortunately, in very good health, for my 66 years, so I'm not complaining about an occasional memory lapse (especially, knowing that others, even younger than me, have much more serious health issues). But, I am, honestly, not ever "lying" to you, when I say I don't recall, so please be patient and just give me reminder. Thanks!

[Libby]

Anyway, I'm not sure that there is a correlation between "your beliefs don't make the church true or untrue" and anecdotal stories.

Critics often use their beliefs as the "standard" against which they judge Mormon doctrine to be untrue.

[Billyray]

Anyway, I'm not sure that there is a correlation between "your beliefs don't make the church true or untrue" and anecdotal stories.


The LDS church is true or false independent of what I believe. That is fact.

[Libby]

The LDS church is true or false independent of what I believe. That is fact.

I will accept that, in regards to church history and even the Book of Mormon archaeology, but when it comes to doctrine, you have to have some basis, on which to call it "false". That basis, for most critics, is their interpretation of the Bible.

[Snow Patrol]

Anyway, I'm not sure that there is a correlation between "your beliefs don't make the church true or untrue" and anecdotal stories.

Critics often use their beliefs as the "standard" against which they judge Mormon doctrine to be untrue.

I think it is more accurate to say that critics often use their expierences with LDS members to determine whether the doctrines to be true or not.

[Billyray]

I will accept that, in regards to church history and even the Book of Mormon archaeology, but when it comes to doctrine, you have to have some basis, on which to call it "false". That basis, for most critics, is their interpretation of the Bible.

The basis is that it doesn't line up with their own scriptures. But an atheist could point that out just as well.

[Libby]

I think it is more accurate to say that critics often use their expierences with LDS members to determine whether the doctrines to be true or not.

Yes, I've seen that fairly often, especially, on this board, which is why I started this thread.

At least, using one's interpretation of the Bible, as a standard, is a "bit" more objective, than overwrought feelings about Mormons. I never could understand LDS who left over personal insult, because the church is either true or not true, and someone insulting you, doesn't really change that.

[Libby]

What if I was an atheist? Then what?

Then, I doubt an argument from the Bible, would be launched (as many critics here tend to do). Most atheists are going to be coming from the point of view that all religion is a bunch of hooey. They will try to discredit the Bible, as well as the Book of Mormon, and anything else on which religion is based.

[Billyray]

I think it is more accurate to say that critics often use their expierences with LDS members to determine whether the doctrines to be true or not.

I don't at all. The LDS doctrine is true or false based on if it is lines up with the Bible.

[Billyray]

Then, I doubt an argument from the Bible, would be launched (as many critics here tend to do).

Many atheists (agnostics) are well versed in the Bible. Look at Bart Ehrman who is agnostic, he is one highly knowledgeable about the issues of NT m****cripts and textual criticism.

[Libby]

Many atheists (agnostics) are well versed in the Bible. Look at Bart Ehrman who is agnostic, he is one of the most knowledgeable people alive on the issues of NT m****cripts and textual criticism.

Yes, I know. That's what I said. They will try to discredit the Bible and anything else on which religion is based.

I think Ehrman considered himself an atheist, did he not? He p***ed away, just recently.

[Snow Patrol]

I agree with the insult stuff. While I was on my mission, we had an investigator attend one Fast and Testimony meeting. Unfortunately, it was one of those infamous non-testimony meetings that we all experience now and then. She left in a huff and as we caught up with her later I explained that indeed the Church was made up of imperfect people and that is the whole reason we have churches. We had the most incredible experience after that as I bore my personal testimony to her. She was changed 180 degrees after that going from doubting everything we taught her to defending everything we taught to her and her friend. It was not my testimony that did that, but the Spirit.

[Billyray]

It was not my testimony that did that, but the Spirit.
The spirit doesn't testify to false doctrine.

[Libby]

I don't at all. The LDS doctrine is true or false based on if it is lines up with the Bible.

See, you are admitting, right here, that you believe LDS doctrine is wrong, based on your beliefs about the Bible. Therefore, your beliefs are pertinent, in any discussion of LDS doctrine.

[Billyray]

See, you are admitting, right here, that you believe LDS doctrine is wrong, based on your beliefs about the Bible.

Not about my beliefs but what it says in black and white.

[Libby]

Not about my beliefs but what it says in black and white.

That's what you say and believe, but the fact is, there are multiple interpretations of what you are calling "black and white", even among mainstream Christians.

I have seen LDS defend many or most of their beliefs from the Bible. So, it really is a matter of interpretation...not black and white, this is the only possible meaning... Heck, why do you think we have so many Bible scholars, researching and writing books on Christian doctrine, if it's all so black and white?

[Billyray]

That's what you say and believe, but the fact is, there are multiple interpretations of what you are calling "black and white", even among mainstream Christians.


You don't have to be religious to be able to read.

If I asked a person who is not religious to read the NT and tell me what is says about marriage in heaven what would that person conclude?

[Billyray]

I have seen LDS defend many or most of their beliefs from the Bible.

And that is exactly what we are here to do, to see how well their doctrines line up with what the Bible teaches.

[Libby]

If I asked a person who is not religious to read the NT and tell me what is says about marriage in heaven what would that person conclude?

That there is no marriage in heaven...

[Billyray]

That there is not marriage in heaven...

Right. So when Mormonism teaches that there is marriage in heaven this is not consistent with what is taught in the NT.

[Snow Patrol]

Then what I said must have been true. :-)

[Libby]

And that is exactly what we are here to do, to see how well their doctrines line up with what the Bible teaches.

With your interpretation.

Also, then, you have no basis for saying that your beliefs have nothing to do with whether or not Mormonism is true.

[Libby]

Right. So when Mormonism teaches that there is marriage in heaven this is not consistent with what is taught in the NT.

Well, they have their own interpretation of that verse, which says that people cannot be married in heaven. That has to be done in this realm.

[Billyray]

With your interpretation.


What is there to interpret with respect to marriage in heaven?

[Billyray]

Well, they have their own interpretation of that verse, which says that people cannot be married in heaven. That has to be done in this realm.

Tell me what verses in the NT support marriage in heaven?

[Libby]

Tell me what verses in the NT support marriage in heaven?

None. LDS don't believe you can be married in heaven, either (as I said). They believe that ordinance has to be done here.

[Billyray]

None.

So do the teachings of Mormonism line up with what is taught in the Bible with respect to marriage in heaven?

[Billyray]

They believe that ordinance has to be done here.

Where does the NT teach teach temple marriage?

[Libby]

So do the teachings of Mormonism line up with what is taught in the Bible with respect to marriage in heaven?

Not in my opinion, no. But, very little is said on the subject of marriage.

I don't, personally, believe that we will be married in the eternities. We will be "married" to God...(meaning reconnected to or have a relationship with)..

[Billyray]

Not in my opinion, no. But, very little is said on the subject of marriage.

OK good so far which is that the LDS teaching about marriage in heaven is inconsistent with what is taught in the Bible. Now we can go though point by point and come to the same conclusion with each point. Some are easy and some are a liitle bit more difficult. Since this is the case why would I believe in Mormonism if it is not consistent with what is taught in the Bible?

[Libby]

I am still out of the church for many reasons, Billy. You really don't have to "convince" me.

Right now, I have to run. Going to dinner with some friends. Back later.

[Billyray]

I am still out of the church for many reasons, Billy. You really don't have to "convince" me.


I am not trying to convince you I am pointing out that a person who can read can see that a lot of the beliefs of Mormonism don't line up with the Bible.

[Libby]

I am not trying to convince you I am pointing out that a person who can read can see that a lot of the beliefs of Mormonism don't line up with the Bible.

Why would LDS be concerned about that? Their doctrine includes more scripture and is based on revelation, not Bible only.

[dberrie2000]

I don't at all. The LDS doctrine is true or false based on if it is lines up with the Bible.

Then it would be true. The doctrines that the Bible teaches are found within the LDS church.

After a study of the Bible for the past 30 years--I have come to the conclusion the LDS church is the only church which has doctrines which align with the Biblical text as well as they do.

[Billyray]

Why would LDS be concerned about that?
Because it shows that their beliefs are not Biblical.

[Billyray]

Then it would be true. The doctrines that the Bible teaches are found within the LDS church.

After a study of the Bible for the past 30 years--I have come to the conclusion the LDS church is the only church which has doctrines which align with the Biblical text as well as they do.

Really?

Does temple marriage line up with the NT?

How about the Aaronic priesthood being restricted to the tribe of Levi?

etc. etc.

[alanmolstad]

Do personal stories really make a church (any church) true or not true? .
they provide us with an eye-witness testimony of what the church is like...be it good or bad.

[alanmolstad]

I
The basic question is how do you determine spiritual truths?

.
You take the teaching in question and compare it to the Scriptures just as happens at ACTS 17:11

[Libby]

they provide us with an eye-witness testimony of what the church is like...be it good or bad.

I don't think so. As I said earlier, you will find all kinds of people in every church on the planet. We are all sinners, yes?

Funny that you are digging up these old threads. Some of them I had long forgotten.

[Libby]

You take the teaching in question and compare it to the Scriptures just as happens at ACTS 17:11

Ah, yes, the Bereans. We are studying Acts in our Bible study group, right now. We are only up to Chapter 13 (Paul's sermon in Antioch).

[alanmolstad]

I don't think so. ...
then you are wrong......consider that....

[alanmolstad]

Ah, yes, the Bereans. We are studying Acts in our Bible study group, right now. We are only up to Chapter 13 (Paul's sermon in Antioch).yes....



This is the most important verse we can learn from when we face a situation of dealing with a difference of point of view about a teachings.

The best answer,,,and the ONLY ANSWER we have in the bible on how to deal with such a situation is that we are instructed to take the new teaching to the test of the Scriptures....

[alanmolstad]

Funny that you are digging up these old threads. Some of them I had long forgotten.
I have received a TON of criticism from the "Christian corner" due to my seeking out topics that are of interest to me regardless of how old they are.


Some people hate it that I do this....it upsets them to no end...


But, I note that by posting on such topics I just got a long lost member of this forum to return here and post again.....

Thus, the proof of the pudding is in the tasting.....

[Libby]

Well, actually, Fig's thread made me comment, first. I hadn't even looked at this board in a very long time.

[Libby]

yes....



This is the most important verse we can learn from when we face a situation of dealing with a difference of point of view about a teachings.

The best answer,,,and the ONLY ANSWER we have in the bible on how to deal with such a situation is that we are instructed to take the new teaching to the test of the Scriptures....

The thing is, everyone involved in any Christian sect will go to the Bible....read it, study it, try to interpret it...and will come away with, either, slight, or often very LARGE differences on what it means.

[Libby]

then you are wrong......consider that....

Not sure what you think I am "wrong" about. Surely, you don't believe that there are churches full of perfect people?

[James Banta]

Not sure what you think I am "wrong" about. Surely, you don't believe that there are churches full of perfect people?

Yes I can believe that the Church is filled with perfect people. But you might say how can someone like you, jim, how can you have the gall to call yourself perfect.. Libby I don't think that even you can say that I deny the Jesus of the Bible, that I don't look to Him as my only hope. That I deny that He is everything that the Bible says that He is.. Even to believing that He is YHWH.

Because of my faith I claim the promised of the Bible.. There we are taught that:


Romans 4:3,23-25
For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;
But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
Who was delivered for our offenses, and was raised again for our justification.


By the authority of the Bible, and my undying faith in Jesus as My Lord, My God, and my Savior, I claim this promise of God counting me as righteous just as He has Abram before me. IHS jim

[James Banta]

The thing is, everyone involved in any Christian sect will go to the Bible....read it, study it, try to interpret it...and will come away with, either, slight, or often very LARGE differences on what it means.

Nonsense! Here in Sandy we have many nondenominational churches, we have a Lutheran church, and a Methodist church, and Baptist churches.. All of whom believe that God is the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.. That salvation comes ONLY by His Grace, through faith ONLY in Jesus.. That we were totally lost until God chose us to be made His own. All of them believe that "we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them". That is the totality of Christianity. In that we have 100% unity of faith.. Libby don't you believe those things? IHS jim

[Libby]

Yes I can believe that the Church is filled with perfect people. But you might say how can someone like you, jim, how can you have the gall to call yourself perfect.. Libby I don't think that even you can say that I deny the Jesus of the Bible, that I don't look to Him as my only hope. That I deny that He is everything that the Bible says that He is.. Even to believing that He is YHWH.

Because of my faith I claim the promised of the Bible.. There we are taught that:


Romans 4:3,23-25
For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;
But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
Who was delivered for our offenses, and was raised again for our justification.


By the authority of the Bible, and my undying faith in Jesus as My Lord, My God, and my Savior, I claim this promise of God counting me as righteous just as He has Abram before me. IHS jim

I don't think, even you, can claim that there is any perfect person on this planet. Jesus was the only one who was perfect.

Therefore, the churches are all full of sinners. All of them.

[Libby]

Nonsense! Here in Sandy we have many nondenominational churches, we have a Lutheran church, and a Methodist church, and Baptist churches.. All of whom believe that God is the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.. That salvation comes ONLY by His Grace, through faith ONLY in Jesus.. That we were totally lost until God chose us to be made His own. All of them believe that "we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them". That is the totality of Christianity. In that we have 100% unity of faith.. Libby don't you believe those things? IHS jim

Arminians and Calvinists have some pretty substantial differences. So do evangelicals, charismatics and orthodox. Yes, they do all believe that God is One in the Trinity...but, many differences in the peripherals.

[James Banta]

Arminians and Calvinists have some pretty substantial differences. So do evangelicals, charismatics and orthodox. Yes, they do all believe that God is One in the Trinity...but, many differences in the peripherals.

Both Armenians and Calvinists believe that salvation comes to us by God's grace through faith in Jesus.. Want to know the HUGE Differences? Calvinist teach that if someone loses their faith they never had a real faith that was deep in their heart but instead just a head knowledge and were never saved.. The Armenian believers that they were saved but lost their salvation.. Since both agree that such a person is not saved what is the real difference between them? NONE..

The side doctrines are meaningless. No where in the scripture are we taught to speak in tongues and we will be saved. No where does it teach that we must be immersed in water to be saved. The central doctrines of holding faith in Jesus, the real Jesus revealed in the Bible to be saved is all that matters..

The doctrine of many Gods first taught by Smith is still the doctrine of mormonism. The believe that God the Father was once a mere man and became God through obedience to Laws and Ordinances, That is still a central belief of mormonism. A belief that leads them to believe they can become a God the same as He is God.. And these blasphemous doctrines are now what you have chosen to defend..

Here you defend mormonism by saying that the doctrines of the Christian Church are so widely different. It is strange that after I called you on it you have retreated to differences in peripherals.. Understand Libby it isn't the peripherals that separates the Church from mormonism. It is the central doctrines of the nature of God, the meaning of salvation and how it is acquired. Who and what Jesus is.. Libby these people believe that Jesus is their spirit sibling. To a Christian that is blasphemy because a Christian knows that Jesus is God.. That He is eternally God. God from eternity past and God to eternity future and no one and nothing will ever, EVER become God. Mormonism denies that saying that is only for this world but is that their real doctrine? No, they use that as a smoke screen to deal with the fact that Jesus created all things and worlds without end:


PofPG Moses 1:33
Worlds without number have I created; and I also created them for mine own purpose; and by the Son I created them, which is mine Only Begotten.


Their attempts to explain why their doctrine don't match up with the Bible have again failed.. And this is the religion, a religion that is ****ing many a wonderful person to hell, that you defend.. I can't understand your reasons for doing this.. Jesus never promised to bring peace.. He said He came with a sword.. We are at war here for men's souls.. I stand with my God in battle against error.. You should either do the same or go back to the comfortable place where you have been and stay there.. IHS jim

[James Banta]

I don't think, even you, can claim that there is any perfect person on this planet. Jesus was the only one who was perfect.

Therefore, the churches are all full of sinners. All of them.

If you deny the p***age I just quoted to you I would say you have the right to hold that idea as truth. But God the Holy Spirit through the apostle Paul have told us that those who believe in Jesus are IMPUTED with His righteousness. Therefore they are either perfect in Him or God lies to us.. Looks to me like you have taken that second option.. That is fine for you if you insist of being an unbeliever but for me I have chosen to believe God and trust Him in all the truth He has revealed.. Therefore I believe that in Jesus I am perfect.. Not in myself but ONLY in Him.. IHS jim

[alanmolstad]

all well said James....all well said.

[Libby]

If you deny the p***age I just quoted to you I would say you have the right to hold that idea as truth. But God the Holy Spirit through the apostle Paul have told us that those who believe in Jesus are IMPUTED with His righteousness. Therefore they are either perfect in Him or God lies to us.. Looks to me like you have taken that second option.. That is fine for you if you insist of being an unbeliever but for me I have chosen to believe God and trust Him in all the truth He has revealed.. Therefore I believe that in Jesus I am perfect.. Not in myself but ONLY in Him.. IHS jim

I don't deny that we "become" perfect in Christ, but answer me one question, James (and Alan).

Do you still sin...or no?

[Libby]

Also, the point of this thread still stands.

The appearance of "good" or "bad", in one or two members of a church, does not make that church true (or false).

[James Banta]

I don't deny that we "become" perfect in Christ, but answer me one question, James (and Alan).

Do you still sin...or no?

Why don't we allow the Holy Spirit through the Apostle Paul to answer that question..


Romans 7:20 (NASB)
But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.


You keep telling us that you are a Christian and yet you don't understand these things? Both Alan and I are Christian therefore we are perfect in Christ.. We have been born again from above.. In that new life we DO NOT SIN.. In the heart of flesh that exists in our flesh sin still lives and it is that sin that dwells in us that does those things that we don't want to do.. Thank you for the easily answered question Libby.. I only wish that your were in a place in your Christian life that the Spirit would answer these questions before you feel the need to ask.. IHS jim

[Libby]

Why don't we allow the Holy Spirit through the Apostle Paul to answer that question..


Romans 7:20 (NASB)
But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.


You keep telling us that you are a Christian and yet you don't understand these things? Both Alan and I are Christian therefore we are perfect in Christ.. We have been born again from above.. In that new life we DO NOT SIN.. In the heart of flesh that exists in our flesh sin still lives and it is that sin that dwells in us that does those things that we don't want to do.. Thank you for the easily answered question Libby.. I only wish that your were in a place in your Christian life that the Spirit would answer these questions before you feel the need to ask.. IHS jim

So much pride, James. You are so focused on whether or not I am a Christian, you just can't seem to focus on what I'm actually saying. Also, you are contradicting yourself with your own scripture.

Paul knew that we are all still sinners, in the flesh, and yet, after posting that, you turn around and tell me you DO NOT SIN. Tsk.

[Libby]

Btw, I am not unfamiliar with that scripture or any other that you have put out there. Why would you think I am?

I've made statements that you know are absolutely true (and in line with scripture), and yet, in your pride, you just cannot bring yourself to agree with me.

[alanmolstad]

I don't deny that we "become" perfect in Christ, but answer me one question, James (and Alan).

Do you still sin...or no?

I dont believe the "perfect" in the verse is talking about leading a sinless life....
The perfect is a word that is talking about completeness....of not lacking anything...of having what you need...not shy anything...

[alanmolstad]

I don't deny that we "become" perfect in Christ, but answer me one question, James (and Alan).

Do you still sin...or no?

when you start out on the path of leading the holy life, you are a muddy painting...lots of smudges and stuff on your life.

But as your life becomes more and more a reflection of the life if Christ, the few sins in your life start to stand out more and more...
So you may be not sinning much at all....but the one or two sins you have in your life stand out and you notice them more.
This is why old ladies that are in the 90s still feel a great need to go to church and confess a sin that you and I would consider nothing to worry about.
Its because the old ladies life is so pure and free of any sins that they notice even the slightest sin now.

So while I know Im a sinner, and no better than any other person, I also have to admit that There were a lot of sins in my past that I have left behind and are not in my life anymore....

But the one or two sins I know can pop up in my life seem to stand out to me.....like one dark small spot of a pure cloth of white....

[alanmolstad]

So much pride, James. You are so focused on whether or not I am a Christian, you just can't seem to focus on what I'm actually saying. Also, you are contradicting yourself with your own scripture.

Paul knew that we are all still sinners, in the flesh, and yet, after posting that, you turn around and tell me you DO NOT SIN. Tsk.you like to use the word "pride" I see.....
We should get you a ****on....



and....the Christian is considered blameless by faith
God looks at our faith in His son, and considers is righteousness.
We are not held blameless of any sins due to our works...
But we are held blameless by faith in Christ.

Thus there is NO Condemnation for us now....none!....zip....zero....

God looks at us and sees only his sinless son.

[Libby]

I dont believe the "perfect" in the verse is talking about leading a sinless life....
The perfect is a word that is talking about completeness....of not lacking anything...of having what you need...not shy anything...

I agree.....

[Libby]

when you start out on the path of leading the holy life, you are a muddy painting...lots of smudges and stuff on your life.

But as your life becomes more and more a reflection of the life if Christ, the few sins in your life start to stand out more and more...
So you may be not sinning much at all....but the one or two sins you have in your life stand out and you notice them more.
This is why old ladies that are in the 90s still feel a great need to go to church and confess a sin that you and I would consider nothing to worry about.
Its because the old ladies life is so pure and free of any sins that they notice even the slightest sin now.

So while I know Im a sinner, and no better than any other person, I also have to admit that There were a lot of sins in my past that I have left behind and are not in my life anymore....

But the one or two sins I know can pop up in my life seem to stand out to me.....like one dark small spot of a pure cloth of white....

But, as Evangelicals are very fond of reminding the LDS, there are no gradations of sin. If you have even one "small" sin, in your life, it is as though you have broken the whole law.

James 2:10 For whoever keeps the entire law, yet fails in one point, is guilty of breaking it all.

[Libby]

you like to use the word "pride" I see.....
We should get you a ****on....



and....the Christian is considered blameless by faith
God looks at our faith in His son, and considers is righteousness.
We are not held blameless of any sins due to our works...
But we are held blameless by faith in Christ.

Thus there is NO Condemnation for us now....none!....zip....zero....

God looks at us and sees only his sinless son.

Yes, that is the belief of most Evangelicals. We do still sin, but our sins are forgiven through Jesus Christ.

As for "pride", I only so easily recognize it, because I am not free of it, myself (nor are most people).

[alanmolstad]

But, as Evangelicals are very fond of reminding the LDS, there are no gradations of sin. If you have even one "small" sin, in your life, it is as though you have broken the whole law.

James 2:10 For whoever keeps the entire law, yet fails in one point, is guilty of breaking it all.
well yes, this is a fact....the Bible clearly tells us that if you break even the smallest of laws you are guilty.
This does not mean that all law-breaking is equal in seriousness, but it does teach that you are in need of salvation regardless.

But the Christian is under NO CONDEMNATION for sin.....
This is because while a Christian might lead a messy life, yet it is not by works we are held sinless but by FAITH!....

So I dont try to earn my forgiveness by countering one sin by doing a bunch of good works, rather I am forgiven via GRACE though my FAITH.

[alanmolstad]

As for "pride", I only so easily recognize it, because I am not free of it, myself (nor are most people).Then one should recognize that there might be a chance we are seeing what is not there because we are thinking of ourselves...

I think if you go back and look at Jim's posts to you, you may start to see that there is not even a hint of "pride" in his words to you....

Rather I would say that the overriding thing that comes out in Jim's posts to you is his..."concern" for you

[alanmolstad]

The thing is, everyone involved in any Christian sect will go to the Bible....read it, study it, try to interpret it...and will come away with, either, slight, or often very LARGE differences on what it means.
Look how this is talked about in ACTS 17:11

There is no better answer to learning truth....there is no better answer for finding out if a teaching is from god or is just something a guy dreamed up on his own.

The Bible has very clear instructions on how to go abut this> we are to take the new teachings and compare them to what we already have received in the Scriptures.

We put them to the test of the Bible....and we reject the stuff that is in disagreement, and we hold fast to what proves to be true.

This is what the Bible tells us to do.
This also is why members of a CULT that know full-well that their teachings are in disagreement with the Bible will try to turn us away from doing what the bible instructs us to do when seeking truth.

The member of a CULT will try to get us to do anything else to learn truth other than what the bible wants us to do.

that also is another way the lie of a CULT is shown to us,,,,for the real teacher will say, "Test my words by the Bible"....but the false teacher will say, "You cant trust your testing by the Bible"

[James Banta]

Btw, I am not unfamiliar with that scripture or any other that you have put out there. Why would you think I am?

I've made statements that you know are absolutely true (and in line with scripture), and yet, in your pride, you just cannot bring yourself to agree with me.

If your statements are so inline with the scripture produce them.. I have shown you just why the Christian is sinless before a Holy God. You have shown nothing to show that the Christian is still in sin..

Yes I am proud.. I am proud that Jesus is God.. I am proud that He (not me) earned my salvation.. I am proud that HE has overcome all things. Other than that pride I am thankful that He loved me so much to willingly go to the cross in my place and purchase there my perfection.

I focus on your salvation as much as I do anyone who is still lost.. I cried the day I heard that Fig died. We lost him.. He went into eternity without Jesus. If you still believe that you area sinner and not a believer made perfect in the blood of Jesus you are still lost.. I don't want to hear that you follow fig into an eternity without Jesus.

If you do believe I rejoice and in that. I would ask you not to disparage the message of life going out to the LDS. Remember Jesus called the religious men of that era vipers and sons of the devil. Merely saying that mormonism is a false religion and a cult, and showing why that is so should not raise the ire of any believer.. You need to either support the truth told here or stay out of conversation completely.. IHS jim

[James Banta]

Yes, that is the belief of most Evangelicals. We do still sin, but our sins are forgiven through Jesus Christ.

As for "pride", I only so easily recognize it, because I am not free of it, myself (nor are most people).


You need to tell me that if a man sees his works as either filthy rags before a Holy God or the works God does though him as fine gold and silver, where then is pride if not only in God? Yes I feel pride in the works of my Lord no matter who He chooses to do them.. I feel blessed when He calls me to do anything in His name. If you see a lot of pride in others because you have so much of it in yourself maybe you should take a deeper look into what you are responsible for doing and what God does through you.. You have no right to be proud of yourself for what another Person does. You can be proud of them, but yourself NO..

God is responsible for all the good in my life. Whether that be my home, and family to the words of life I share here on WM.. I have no pride in these things, only pride in my God, and thankfulness for His works and blessings He has worked for me and all mankind. Why is it Libby that I don't see that same response from you? IHS jim

[Libby]

James....you are forgiven, through Jesus Christ, but that doesn't mean you are not still a sinner. I've already shown scripture to back that up.

Actually, your own life should be proof enough of that. Mine certainly is.

[RealFakeHair]

James....you are forgiven, through Jesus Christ, but that doesn't mean you are not still a sinner. I've already shown scripture to back that up.

Actually, your own life should be proof enough of that. Mine certainly is.
Being perfect, I have no idea what your typing about.

[Libby]

Being perfect, I have no idea what your typing about.

lol....

;-)

[James Banta]

James....you are forgiven, through Jesus Christ, but that doesn't mean you are not still a sinner. I've already shown scripture to back that up.

Actually, your own life should be proof enough of that. Mine certainly is.

You have not used one scripture to make your point.. NOT ONE.. I have used Paul's reason that he is perfect before a Holy God. And that not just him, but the reason why all believers are perfect. You have said on other occasions that you have some doubts about the veracity of the scripture. That is fine for an unbeliever like you are sounding like but for those of us that believe the Bible to be the word of God we are clearly taught that a Christian doesn't sin but it is sin that still dwells in them, that is their flesh that sins.

Romans 7:17-20
So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.
For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not.
(http://biblehub.com/romans/7-19.htm)For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want.
But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.

So far p***ages quoted here show that SIN is responsible for sin that lives in a Christian and not the Christian themselves. That is all that has been shown. You have not shown a single p***age that states differently.. I don't believe you can.. By telling us all that you have already shown scripture that does to points out your lack of ability to tell the difference between truth and falsehood.. IHS jim

[James Banta]

I dont believe the "perfect" in the verse is talking about leading a sinless life....
The perfect is a word that is talking about completeness....of not lacking anything...of having what you need...not shy anything...

No even a perfect sinless life in Jesus.. We have all we need to BOLDLY APPROACH THE THRONE OF GOD.. Being pure and clean in the garments cleansed in the Blood of the Lamb.. Not having a righteousness that is through our own good deeds (self righteousness), but one given to us by God through our faith in Jesus.. IHS jim

[James Banta]

James....you are forgiven, through Jesus Christ, but that doesn't mean you are not still a sinner. I've already shown scripture to back that up.

Actually, your own life should be proof enough of that. Mine certainly is.

Yes I am forgiven and all those old things have p***ed away. Look now, all things have been made new.. Jesus took my sin onto Himself, He became sin so that I could be made the Righteousness of God in Him.. I didn't do anything to gain that righteousness. All I have done is trusted God to do all that the Holy Spirit has promised and stated to us through His apostle. All I see from you is what seems right to mankind.. I'll stick with God's word. You can hold onto what you have made up in your own mind.. IHS jim

[Libby]

Yes I am forgiven and all those old things have p***ed away. Look now, all things have been made new.. Jesus took my sin onto Himself, He became sin so that I could be made the Righteousness of God in Him.. I didn't do anything to gain that righteousness. All I have done is trusted God to do all that the Holy Spirit has promised and stated to us through His apostle. All I see from you is what seems right to mankind.. I'll stick with God's word. You can hold onto what you have made up in your own mind.. IHS jim

James, you are mistaken (and I am being generous in giving you the benefit of doubt). First of all, I have quoted scripture: James 2:10 "For whoever keeps the entire law, yet fails in one point, is guilty of breaking it all". Secondly, I made reference to YOUR scripture as proof that we are still sinners. You are not even recognizing that the scripture you quoted is telling you, flat out, that you are still a sinner. Thirdly, show me where I have "made things up"? I have "made up" nothing. Again, you are "mistaken".

[Libby]

This does not mean that all law-breaking is equal in seriousness,

Actually, the word from most Evangelicals is that it does mean exactly that. If even the slightest sin will send you to some eternal hell, then it must all be equally bad.

[Libby]

We have a promise of perfection in Jesus Christ...but, as mortals, continuing to live on this planet, we do still sin. Every one of us.

So, the churches are full of mortal sinners (many of whom you may consider "saved" in Christ, if he is the one in whom they put their faith).

Since all people do sin, you cannot judge a church by the behavior of it's people.

When I was coming out of Mormonism, I had some good teachers (in the Evangelical tradition). Their emphasis was always on Bible doctrine...not behavior. That's the main reason I started this thread (way back when), because many Christians, on this board, especially ex-Mormons, tended to put their focus on behaviors, when judging whether or not someone was a Christian (rather than whether or not the person put their faith in Jesus Christ).

Just as a footnote to this thread, which I started several years ago, my own beliefs have changed significantly. But, since Alan brought this thread up, again, I wanted to try and explain where I was coming from (at that time).

[alanmolstad]

Actually, the word from most Evangelicals is that it does mean exactly that. If even the slightest sin will send you to some eternal hell, then it must all be equally bad.
I believe I qualify to be answer this question from a Evangelical point of view.

Sins are all different, in that no two are the same or have the same effect on my brothers.
the sin of murder is worse than the sin of stealing.

But all sins are the same in the manner that any sin can condemn a person to hell forever.

So this means that all sins are not equal in scale, but all sins are able to condemn.

thus I would never say that the sin of murder is as bad as the sin of stealing some candy from a baby....
But I would say that the smaller sin of stealing some candy can condemn a person just as the sin of murder can...

But what makes them the same is that both are able to be forgiven.
So a person need not ever think that they have sinned too great to find forgiveness...for all sin is forgiven for them that believe.

[Libby]

I believe I qualify to be answer this question from a Evangelical point of view.

Sins are all different, in that no two are the same or have the same effect on my brothers.
the sin of murder is worse than the sin of stealing.

But all sins are the same in the manner that any sin can condemn a person to hell forever.

So this means that all sins are not equal in scale, but all sins are able to condemn.

thus I would never say that the sin of murder is as bad as the sin of stealing some candy from a baby....
But I would say that the smaller sin of stealing some candy can condemn a person just as the sin of murder can...

But what makes them the same is that both are able to be forgiven.
So a person need not ever think that they have sinned too great to find forgiveness...for all sin is forgiven for them that believe.

Yeah, I understand what you're saying, Alan. I certainly don't disagree that some acts are worse than others. Just saying, according to Evangelical interpretation of the Bible, all sins are equal in their ability to send someone to hell.

[alanmolstad]

Yeah, I understand what you're saying, Alan. I certainly don't disagree that some acts are worse than others. Just saying, according to Evangelical interpretation of the Bible, all sins are equal in their ability to send someone to hell.
>>>>

So if I were to say that "All sins are equal" this is correct if you make sure you understand the correct context.

The sin of murdering a baby is "equal" to the sin of stealing candy from that baby, as long as you understand that your context is that all sins can send a person to hell....

The sins are not equal in scale...and it would be crazy to say that the 2 sins are equal in that way.
But they are both able to send a person to hell

[James Banta]

James, you are mistaken (and I am being generous in giving you the benefit of doubt). First of all, I have quoted scripture: James 2:10 "For whoever keeps the entire law, yet fails in one point, is guilty of breaking it all". Secondly, I made reference to YOUR scripture as proof that we are still sinners. You are not even recognizing that the scripture you quoted is telling you, flat out, that you are still a sinner. Thirdly, show me where I have "made things up"? I have "made up" nothing. Again, you are "mistaken".

Before we come to Jesus even if we commit only one sin we are just as guilty before a Holy God as if we had broken all His commandments.. I was a sinner.. Jesus became sin in my place and gave me His righteousness.. Is His righteousness sin, because that is the only righteousness I claim? If His righteousness it pure and He gave it to me them there is no sin in me, that is in my new creation.. This idea that the Christian has been born twice is a tripping point to you.. In my flesh, that is my natural state, I was a terrible sinner.. I am now sinless in Christ.. My flesh, however, continues to live in the filth and sin it was born into.. Soon it will have an end and the new creation will return to God who gave it.. That is no mistake..

The p***age says that in our flesh we all sin.. It also says that for the believer it isn't they that commits the sin but sin it's self that lives in that flesh.. You make up doctrines like this one of believing that believers are sinners when the Bible is clear that, yes in our flesh sin still exists, but the Christian has been born again SPIRITUALLY. In that new spiritual life we are sinless because of the blood of the Lamb.. This shouldn't be such a difficult doctrine to understand.. It is troublesome that you are so confused by it.. You really need to study under a GOOD Christian teacher who can help you clear up your faulty thinking.. IHS jim

[Libby]

>>>>

So if I were to say that "All sins are equal" this is correct if you make sure you understand the correct context.

The sin of murdering a baby is "equal" to the sin of stealing candy from that baby, as long as you understand that your context is that all sins can send a person to hell....

The sins are not equal in scale...and it would be crazy to say that the 2 sins are equal in that way.
But they are both able to send a person to hell

Yes, exactly.

[alanmolstad]

Yes, exactly.

This is the evangelical position.....It is supported by the bible....

[James Banta]

This is the evangelical position.....It is supported by the bible....

Help me Alan.. Are all sins rebellion against God? Is even one sin a breaking of the Command Jesus gave us to be perfect as the Father in heaven is perfect? According to James 2:10, which tells us how God sees sin, is offending the Law in one point make us guilty of braking all the Law?

We are also taught that:


Matthew 12:31
Therefore I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven people, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven

What is it that Jesus is teaching us here? I see Him saying that there will be only one charge leveled at unbelievers at the Great White Throne. It won't be stealing, murder, or lying. It will be, "did you respond to the Holy Spirit as He directed you to the Cross or did you turn away".. If a person calls the work of the Holy Spirit nonsense and turns to the world or their own imaginary gods, these have turn away from God then have committing blasphemy against the Holy Spirit! For that sin there in no forgiveness.. That is why that all sin is the same, at least before God.. IHS jim

[alanmolstad]

Help me Alan.. Are all sins rebellion against God?

You know, I have seen you guys using that term "rebellion against God" a few times on this forum over the last month or so....and to tell the truth I dont really have any idea what that is referring to?

I never use the term "rebellion".....so its not really a question i can answer.

I remember from my time in bible school that the term "sin" was said to be a military term that talked about falling short.....the context was that you might be tossing a spear and it falls short of the mark....I also think that the military term itself stems from an even older word that is talking about the word for "cut".
I remember it was used in the military to describe when you would have something fall short of the target and so it would make a "cut" in the earth before the target.


So based on my own understanding of the term "SIN", I would say that a sin is when we fall short of the target, or the expected behavior.


Now are "all" sins a falling short against God?...well I think you have to understand the context of what you have in mind when you are talking about the sin in question.
I can sin against God, and on the other hand I can sin against my brother.

[alanmolstad]

Is even one sin a breaking of the Command Jesus gave us to be perfect as the Father in heaven is perfect? ,,,,,
I understand the command to be "perfect' to be talking about "completeness" to be lacking nothing, to be whole....
I dont think God gives us commandments we cant keep....

I have always believed that if God commands you to do something, that whatever it was is within your ability to do....

If God asked us to do things we CAN NOT simply do at all no matter what then God could not be just in condemning us for failing to do what we cant do.
It would be like commanding me to flap my arms and fly around the moon....If God commanded me to do that He would be crazy because no matter how hard any person tried it would never happen.

So when we are commanded to be "perfect" it is a normal request that we be "completed"...that we "fulfill" our lives in the church with all good faith...and that our faith is also shown to the world in our deeds.so that we dont just talk the talk, but also walk the walk.

[alanmolstad]

Matthew 12:31
Therefore I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven people, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven

What is it that Jesus is teaching us here?

The Text there is dealing with an issue where the Jewish leaders had seen the mighty works that Jesus was doing, the leaders understood these were real mighty works...Yet despite this the Jewish leaders wanted to not believe so much that they dreamed-up the "Satan cats out Satan" idea rather admitting they had been wrong about Jesus and that the works Jesus was doing show he was the Christ.

In other words, the personal need they had to Hate Jesus was stronger inside their hearts than the proof they saw with their eyes that he was the Lord.

at that point Jesus was just telling it like it was....Jesus was saying that there is "nothing else"....nothing else God would offer to them,,,no "other" way.....

Jesus was simply telling the Jewish leaders what was happening, that they had clearly now committed to never believing no matter what God did to convince them differently, and as that was so, they were lost.


Jesus was not condemning them, he was simply telling them that they are condemned.


So this sin is a sign you are lost.

[alanmolstad]

That is why that all sin is the same, at least before God.. IHS jim...well,,,yes and no as i have pointed out before.

You have to define your context...for we all know the smallest sin will condemn, yet at the same time we also know that there are far greater sins than others....

[alanmolstad]

...... I see Him saying that there will be only one charge leveled at unbelievers at the Great White Throne. It won't be stealing, murder, or lying. It will be, "did you respond to the Holy Spirit as He directed you to the Cross or did you turn away"..
Now I have heard sermons where this sin "Against the Holy Spirit" was turned into the general sin of unbelief....but Im not yet sold on that idea.

In the context Jesus seems to be talking about a particular incident he had with some Jewish teachers who were connecting his mighty works to being actually created by Satan.
So I would hesitate to try to use the listing of this one event in Christ's life into a more wide-ranging way of understanding why the Lost are lost.

[James Banta]

Now I have heard sermons where this sin "Against the Holy Spirit" was turned into the general sin of unbelief....but Im not yet sold on that idea.

In the context Jesus seems to be talking about a particular incident he had with some Jewish teachers who were connecting his mighty works to being actually created by Satan.
So I would hesitate to try to use the listing of this one event in Christ's life into a more wide-ranging way of understanding why the Lost are lost.

In doing that were the Jews not denying the promptings of the Holy Spirit to lead them to repentance and therefore forgiveness? It would seem by the actions of both Nicodemus and Joseph of Arimathaea who were rules of the Jews were able to see who Jesus is and respond to Him in faith.. It wasn't just calling the works of Jesus Satanic, it was rejection of Him as Savior, Lord, and God.. IHS jim

[Libby]

Now I have heard sermons where this sin "Against the Holy Spirit" was turned into the general sin of unbelief....but Im not yet sold on that idea.

Yes, this is the Calvinist understanding of "sinning against the Holy Spirit".

Mormons believe that sinning against the Spirit can only happen when one has "sure knowledge" of Christ and who he is, and yet turns their back on him. One has to wonder if that was the case for the Pharisees? Perhaps not, but I always wondered. They did turn their backs on Jesus...and being the learned men of scripture that they, supposedly, were, seems like they should have recognized Jesus. Not only did they not recognize him, but they claimed that his power was from the devil (as you pointed out).

[James Banta]

Yes, this is the Calvinist understanding of "sinning against the Holy Spirit".

Mormons believe that sinning against the Spirit can only happen when one has "sure knowledge" of Christ and who he is, and yet turns their back on him. One has to wonder if that was the case for the Pharisees? Perhaps not, but I always wondered. They did turn their backs on Jesus...and being the learned men of scripture that they, supposedly, were, seems like they should have recognized Jesus. Not only did they not recognize him, but they claimed that his power was from the devil (as you pointed out).

The LDS definition the LDS church has for a son of Perdition is of course correct as far as it goes. But what about the mere unbelieving? Are they not cast into the Lake of Fire along with the abominable, and murderers, and *****mongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars (Rev 21:8).. What other punishment is there that is worse that the punishment that Satan will be ***igned to that a son of Perdition will be subject to (Rev 20:10).. It would seem from this that mere unbelief can be seen as the same as "one has "sure knowledge" of Christ and who he is, and yet turns their back on him".. It then is because the Pharisees were in disbelief that they will be judged by God and cast into the Lake of Fire and not because of some unforgivable sin they committed in mortality.. IHS jim