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Pa Pa
02-10-2012, 08:53 AM
Many in the anti-Mormon community have criticized the fact that the plates upon which the Book of Mormon were taken (translated), and that they were “taken”, is very convenient” for the Mormons, because they are not available for comparison, review, inspection, etc. But in reality it is not ‘very inconvenient” at all, but “very necessary”. I have given much thought to what arguments would be made if we did have the “plates”. Before listing any it is only (FAIR©) to note that we do not have (no one has) the “Stone Tablets” upon which were engraved by the “Hand of God” the Ten Commandments. Because the OT was p***ed down via “Oral Tradition” we do not have (no one has) any original m****cripts. Beyond the OT, there are missing m****cripts of the NT as well. Also the “famous” or “infamous” missing books…


Note: Not all missing to all versions, but missing, or a more descriptive term may be “excluded”. Many scriptural books are alleged too have been written centuries after the advent of Christ. But returning to the main theme, what if we had the “plates of gold or br***”?

This is my list; maybe some of you could add? In addition I would also like a list from those representing other organizations or interests to list what they would need to be satisfied. Including for example IRR©, President Rob Bowman or others.

My list…

No one can read this language it is made up!

They have them but will not everyone see them…this already happens with many religious artifacts that are in the possession of others; made by those not allowed to see them.

They have not been carbon dated.

They have been carbon dated and scientists cannot agree.

Mormons don’t have Scholars or Scientists, BYU only teaches Pseudoscience. This one may have merit?

I don’t care what anyone says; I have not seen them!

OK the comments made there on the plates are correct according to the inscription, but there is no evidence beyond written that Nephites and Laminites ever existed.

The plates are plagiarized from the Bible.

“A Bible, a Bible, we have got a Bible and there can be no other Bible”.
There theology does not match orthodoxy and therefore it is false.

It does no agree with our “Creeds”!

They store them behind protective gl***, how do we know what it is? BTW, the Church is a con has the money to produce something and do this!

No God would require obedience for salvation.

I will add others as additional posts…

My list for why they are not available…”all of the above”.

Be serious and have fun.

jdjhere
02-23-2012, 01:10 PM
"Look!... the plates are fake. It says 'Made in Palmyra, NY' on the back."
"Written by the very Hand of God! But... I wonder... which... one??"
"Lock them away in the LDS vault! Gold will ONLY go up."
"Look what we found after an Angel instructed us to treasure dig in the Comoros Islands (called Camora Islands in 1808) near Madagascar, off the South-east coast of Africa, in the capital city (in 1876) of Moroni... GOLD!" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cumorah
"Look what we found treasure digging at the Hill Cumorah...GOLD! We dug in NY (or was it South America??) and even though we did not find any evidence of a GREAT Battle, we still found these PLATES... THANKS Moroni!"

jdjhere
02-23-2012, 03:15 PM
PaPa stated: "I would also like a list from those representing other organizations or interests to list what they would need to be satisfied."

How about some actual evidence that Joseph actually translated ANYTHING off these plates if his head was buried in a hat, miraculously "translating"? Remember, LDS say the Angel took the plates BACK but not so with the 10 Commandments. So, conceivably, someone could STILL find the Ark of the Covenant, just as the Dead Sea Scrolls were (relatively) recently discovered.

Radix
02-23-2012, 05:10 PM
IF this was a legitimate question.
IF I had a magic rock in a hat pulled over my face.
IF those "caractors" shown to Dr. Anthon really were a real language.
IF Egyptologists really thought Joseph had translated those facsimiles accurately.
IF Nephites really had existed.

Just thought I would help you with some future threads PaPa.

BigJulie
02-23-2012, 07:40 PM
Pa Pa, to add to your list--no ark of the covenant, no Urim and Thummin, no breastplate---all of these were artifacts Jewish theology.

Billyray
02-23-2012, 09:00 PM
Pa Pa, to add to your list--no ark of the covenant, no Urim and Thummin, no breastplate---all of these were artifacts Jewish theology.
J we don't have any ancient Book of Mormon m****cripts that predates Joseph. For the Bible we have thousands. There is simply no comparison between the two.

Radix
02-24-2012, 05:30 PM
Pa Pa, to add to your list--no ark of the covenant, no Urim and Thummin, no breastplate---all of these were artifacts Jewish theology.

Let's see, all the artifacts listed did involve people we know ACTUALLY EXISTED. Outside the fictional creating mind of Joseph Smith, no proof for Nephites.

Russianwolfe
02-24-2012, 08:22 PM
Let's see, all the artifacts listed did involve people we know ACTUALLY EXISTED. Outside the fictional creating mind of Joseph Smith, no proof for Nephites.

Please honor us with your vast knowledge and tell us, based on the evidence from the Book of Mormon (please provide references) what would you expect to find in the area you have determined to be the location (again provide references from the Book of Mormon to support your claim) that the Book took place.

And don't claim that you can't prove a negative. You are the one who claimed that there is no proof for the Nephites, so now you have to show why you make that claim. It is your claim, so support it. If you can't prove a negative, then you have no business making this claim.

Marvin

PS Eight witnesses testify that the plates existed and 4 witnesses claim to have had a witness from God and testify that the book is from God. That is my first level evidence that the Nephites existed.

Radix
02-24-2012, 09:30 PM
Please honor us with your vast knowledge and tell us, based on the evidence from the Book of Mormon (please provide references) what would you expect to find in the area you have determined to be the location (again provide references from the Book of Mormon to support your claim) that the Book took place.

And don't claim that you can't prove a negative. You are the one who claimed that there is no proof for the Nephites, so now you have to show why you make that claim. It is your claim, so support it. If you can't prove a negative, then you have no business making this claim.

Marvin

PS Eight witnesses testify that the plates existed and 4 witnesses claim to have had a witness from God and testify that the book is from God. That is my first level evidence that the Nephites existed.

Provide one substantive piece of evidence acceptable to at least half of the University archaeologists that would confirm the existence of Nephites. If you cannot, it is wishful thinking.

And you are right. There is no proof for a negative. Mormons claim Nephites are legitimate, it is up to you Marvin to provide evidence to support your claim. Nephites were NEVER mentioned in any of my school text books or lectures.

jdjhere
02-25-2012, 10:35 AM
RussianWolfe:

Did the people called Narods of the Grand Lakes regions in southern Peru exist? If they DID, please give archeological and textual (historical) proof that they did . If they did NOT exist, please explain WHY you came to this conclusion. Thanks.

BigJulie
02-25-2012, 12:53 PM
Let's see, all the artifacts listed did involve people we know ACTUALLY EXISTED. Outside the fictional creating mind of Joseph Smith, no proof for Nephites.

How do you know they actually existed? Have you ever seen them? Has anyone you know ever seen them?

Billyray
02-25-2012, 05:05 PM
How do you know they actually existed? Have you ever seen them? Has anyone you know ever seen them?

J how about comparing like for like. The Golden plates were what we were talking about. What we are after is the Golden plates OR any writings from any of the books contained within the Book of Mormon. For the Bible we have thousands of ancient m****cripts.

Russianwolfe
02-25-2012, 05:10 PM
Let's see, all the artifacts listed did involve people we know ACTUALLY EXISTED. Outside the fictional creating mind of Joseph Smith, no proof for Nephites.


Provide one substantive piece of evidence acceptable to at least half of the University archaeologists that would confirm the existence of Nephites. If you cannot, it is wishful thinking.

And you are right. There is no proof for a negative. Mormons claim Nephites are legitimate, it is up to you Marvin to provide evidence to support your claim. Nephites were NEVER mentioned in any of my school text books or lectures.

Now you are changing your statements. See the enlarged highlighted portion above to review what you said. Now, since you have made the claim, please provide the evidence that has lead to your conclusion. It was your claim so now you have to put up or shut up.

To counter your challenge, please 'provide one substantive piece of evidence acceptable to at least half of the University archaeologists that would confirm the exitence of' the following: The Garden of Eden, the original stone tablet with the 10 commandments, Noah's Ark, the original holographs of any of the books of the Bible. When you have provided these evidences, then I will gladly provide the evidence of the Nephites.

Marvin

Russianwolfe
02-25-2012, 05:11 PM
RussianWolfe:

Did the people called Narods of the Grand Lakes regions in southern Peru exist? If they DID, please give archeological and textual (historical) proof that they did . If they did NOT exist, please explain WHY you came to this conclusion. Thanks.

I am not making any claims of the sort you are asking for. If you want to know, the search it out for yourself.

Radix did make a claim and is stacking claims on top of claims. So your diversion isn't going to fly.

Marvin

Billyray
02-25-2012, 07:55 PM
. . .then I will gladly provide the evidence of the Nephites.

Marvin

Does that mean you actually have any evidence for the Nephites living in the Americas OR are you pulling our leg Marvin?

Radix
02-25-2012, 09:36 PM
How do you know they actually existed? Have you ever seen them? Has anyone you know ever seen them?

Let me guess BigJulie, you never actually took a college course in world history did you?

Radix
02-25-2012, 09:41 PM
Now you are changing your statements. See the enlarged highlighted portion above to review what you said. Now, since you have made the claim, please provide the evidence that has lead to your conclusion. It was your claim so now you have to put up or shut up.

To counter your challenge, please 'provide one substantive piece of evidence acceptable to at least half of the University archaeologists that would confirm the exitence of' the following: The Garden of Eden, the original stone tablet with the 10 commandments, Noah's Ark, the original holographs of any of the books of the Bible. When you have provided these evidences, then I will gladly provide the evidence of the Nephites.

Marvin

Let's see, you want me to find you a garden, or a single stone or m****cripts thousands of years old. I am asking you to provide evidence of a civilization. I can provide evidence of a Jewish civilization.

BigJulie
02-25-2012, 10:41 PM
Let me guess BigJulie, you never actually took a college course in world history did you?

Is that a no to my question?

Radix
02-26-2012, 06:15 AM
Is that a no to my question?

The quality of the question begs me at ask 'Have you taken a breath of air today?'

You want to know if the Jewish people are real? Did they actually exist in Biblical times? Have fun looking up this tid bit. Tel Dan (“David”) Stela

Now using a source other than Joseph Smith, can you provide anything about Nephites?

Billyray
02-26-2012, 07:53 AM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arch_of_***us

" . . .The Arch of ***us is a 1st-century honorific arch[1] located on the Via Sacra, Rome, just to the south-east of the Roman Forum. It was constructed in c.82 AD by the Roman Emperor Domitian shortly after the death of his older brother ***us to commemorate ***us' victories, including the Siege of Jerusalem in 70 AD. . .

. . .The south panel depicts the spoils taken from the Temple in Jerusalem. The Golden Candlestick or Menorah (see [Exodus 25:31-40]) is the main focus and is carved in deep relief. Other sacred objects being carried in the triumphal procession are the Silver Trumpets (see [Numbers 10:1-10]) and the Table of Shewbread (see [Exodus 25:23-30]).[2] These spoils were originally gilded with gold, with the background in blue.[2]. . ."

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/17/Carrying_off_the_Menorah_from_the_Temple_in_Jerusa lem_depicted_on_a_frieze_on_the_Arch_of_***us_in_t he_Forum_Romanum.JPG/576px-Carrying_off_the_Menorah_from_the_Temple_in_Jerusa lem_depicted_on_a_frieze_on_the_Arch_of_***us_in_t he_Forum_Romanum.JPG

Russianwolfe
02-26-2012, 10:12 AM
Let's see, you want me to find you a garden, or a single stone or m****cripts thousands of years old. I am asking you to provide evidence of a civilization. I can provide evidence of a Jewish civilization.

Still trying to dodge the claim you made.

And still not able to support your claims. Typical. Keep dancing, Radix.

Marvin

Billyray
02-26-2012, 11:05 AM
Still trying to dodge the claim you made.

And still not able to support your claims. Typical. Keep dancing, Radix.

Marvin

Marvin there is absolutely no comparison between the evidence for the Bible verses the Book of Mormon. Why do you think that is?

Radix
02-27-2012, 05:59 AM
Still trying to dodge the claim you made.

And still not able to support your claims. Typical. Keep dancing, Radix.

Marvin

My only claim here is that the Jewish people did indeed exist in what we call ancient times. Now most education people would call this common sense. Only you would seem not to acknowledge this. Start using the eyes God gave you.

It is pathetic I provide a reference for ancient Jews, you provide NOTHING valid for Nephites, and yet you claim I am unable to support anything. Your entire world rests on a dead con artist who made claims while holding a rock in a hat over his face. As a con artist is the center of your being, it provides some insight why you play these shallow games.

Russianwolfe
02-27-2012, 07:45 AM
My only claim here is that the Jewish people did indeed exist in what we call ancient times. Now most education people would call this common sense. Only you would seem not to acknowledge this. Start using the eyes God gave you.

It is pathetic I provide a reference for ancient Jews, you provide NOTHING valid for Nephites, and yet you claim I am unable to support anything. Your entire world rests on a dead con artist who made claims while holding a rock in a hat over his face. As a con artist is the center of your being, it provides some insight why you play these shallow games.

What is really pathetic is your continual running away from the claim that started this whole thing. I have even given you a reference and the complete post and yet you still avoid talking about your claim.

Thanks for providing the evidence that you have no ability to back up your claims.

Marvin

PS Why is it when ever I try to get you to support your claim, you change the subject?

Billyray
02-27-2012, 07:56 AM
What is really pathetic is your continual running away from the claim that started this whole thing.

Hey Marvin are you ever going to give us any proof for the Nephites living in the America?

jdjhere
02-27-2012, 10:15 AM
RussianWolfe:

Did the people called Narods of the Grand Lakes regions in southern Peru exist? If they DID, please give archeological and textual (historical) proof that they did . If they did NOT exist, please explain WHY you came to this conclusion. Thanks.

Are you going to answer this RussianWolfe? It is NOT a diversion as you claim but a reasoned, researched scientific REASON why and how we know certain people and places existed in history. I can give you ZERO proof or evidence that the Narods existed or that there was a place called Grand Lakes in Peru. I came to the conclusion that they did not ever exist because there is no archeological or historical proof that they ever existed because as we all know, of course, I made them up. This is called common sense. Now, show us your proof historically and archeologically that Nephites existed and I for one will start to take you more seriously. Thanks for showing us in advance.

Radix
02-27-2012, 12:48 PM
Hey Marvin are you ever going to give us any proof for the Nephites living in the America?

Of course he will not. His religion is too incompetent.

Radix
02-27-2012, 12:55 PM
What is really pathetic is your continual running away from the claim that started this whole thing. I have even given you a reference and the complete post and yet you still avoid talking about your claim.

Thanks for providing the evidence that you have no ability to back up your claims.

Marvin

PS Why is it when ever I try to get you to support your claim, you change the subject?

I do not change the subject, your just programmed to not accept the answer. And why is it I am the only one who is obligated to answer any questions? How about a little legitimate proof of Nephites? The only thing we see from you is your whining that nobody seems to be able to read your mind. You claim research, and produce nothing (that was another recent thread), and here you have not provided an iota of information about the Nephites. Of course we understand why, that is because they are fic***ious. As I am typing this out, I see you are doing the only thing you can. You just complain about everyone else's answers, because your substanceless religion has no answers to anyone else's questions here.

Libby
02-27-2012, 01:17 PM
Book of Mormon Evidences - Dr. Daniel Peterson

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fiNgnk_L748

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJor1cCNeTc&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_MPv5LtCjFU&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_MPv5LtCjFU&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F6-W8T9oAxw&feature=related

Libby
02-27-2012, 01:21 PM
Another very interesting series of evidence for the Book of Mormon (a re****al to a critic's video called "The Bible vs Book of Mormon")

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aPlCue-rmFY&feature=watch_response

This is a several part series (13, I think) which you can find at the site.

BigJulie
02-27-2012, 02:25 PM
Libby, I also have a great-great (can't remember the number of greats) grandfather who recorded in his journal that when he prayed about whether the church was true, an angel appeared to him and showed him the gold plates. (This was during the first years of the church.) Well, as I know that my family members did not tend to be crazy; were very hard working, and were very honest; that is a strong witness to me as well. There is nothing else in his journal to lead one to believe that he was not in his right mind or that he did not take life very seriously.

Billyray
02-27-2012, 02:30 PM
Libby, I also have a great-great (can't remember the number of greats) grandfather who recorded in his journal that when he prayed about whether the church was true, an angel appeared to him and showed him the gold plates.

I believe it J because Satan can appear as an angel of light.

2 Corinthians 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

jdjhere
02-27-2012, 03:39 PM
Libby, even though you say you are no longer LDS you do seem, at times, to want to defend certain claims and positions of theirs, which is fine, but because of that I will direct my question to you instead because RussianWolfe has not even TRIED to answer it.

Show us proof historically and archeologically that Nephites existed in America (or ANYPLACE for that matter) and I for one will start to take the BOM more seriously.

I watched two of the videos you posted and did not even get CLOSE to an answer for my above question. Could you please tell me which one of these videos answers my question above? Thank you.

BigJulie
02-27-2012, 05:17 PM
Did you watch the last video she gave in which it has been shown that the beliefs about the native americans in the past have been slowly refuted and that the culture is more in line with the Book of Mormon?

A friend of mine went to South America on his mission and he said that there is history there that is consistent with the Book of Mormon teachings.

Lastly, to anyone who thinks that the angelic witnesses are proof that it is Satan who is overseeing the Book of Mormon, I share the lives of those who live by the principles taught in the Book of Mormon. We learn that those things that teach of Christ produce goodness and those things which are of Satan produce the things of the flesh. My own experience shows that the teachings of the Book of Mormon are true in that they produce the fruits of the spirit.

Scriptures from the Book of Mormon:

"Wherefore, how great the importance to make these things known unto the inhabitants of the earth, that they may know that there is no flesh that can dwell in the presence of God, save it be through the merits, and mercy, and grace of the Holy Messiah, who layeth down his life according to the flesh, and taketh it again by the power of the Spirit, that he may bring to p*** the resurrection of the dead, being the first that should rise."

"For as death hath p***ed upon all men, to fulfil the merciful plan of the great Creator, there must needs be a power of resurrection, and the resurrection must needs come unto man by reason of the fall; and the fall came by reason of transgression; and because man became fallen they were cut off from the presence of the Lord. Wherefore, it must needs be an infinite atonement -- save it should be an infinite atonement this corruption could not put on incorruption. Wherefore, the first judgment which came upon man must needs have remained to an endless duration. And if so, this flesh must have laid down to rot and to crumble to its mother earth, to rise no more."

"And this death of which I have spoken, which is the spiritual death, shall deliver up its dead; which spiritual death is hell; wherefore, death and hell must deliver up their dead, and hell must deliver up its captive spirits, and the grave must deliver up its captive bodies, and the bodies and the spirits of men will be restored one to the other; and it is by the power of the resurrection of the Holy One of Israel."

Billyray
02-27-2012, 05:22 PM
Lastly, to anyone who thinks that the angelic witnesses are proof that it is Satan who is overseeing the Book of Mormon, I share the lives of those who live by the principles taught in the Book of Mormon. We learn that those things that teach of Christ produce goodness and those things which are of Satan produce the things of the flesh. My own experience shows that the teachings of the Book of Mormon are true in that they produce the fruits of the spirit.
Your life is consistent with the lies of Satan in that you worship false gods, follow a false gospel, and believe that you can become a god/goddess.

Radix
02-27-2012, 06:05 PM
Another very interesting series of evidence for the Book of Mormon (a re****al to a critic's video called "The Bible vs Book of Mormon")

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aPlCue-rmFY&feature=watch_response

This is a several part series (13, I think) which you can find at the site.

Before I spend a lot of time watching these videos, do any of them provide one iota of evidence for the existence of Nephites? I have written a review of a lecture of his in the past. PaPa even got him to look at my review. Peterson responded with a snarky, sarcastic remark, did not even bother to address a single comment. His remark was made on the old MADB site.

Again, do any of the videos provide any info on Nephites?

Radix
02-27-2012, 06:17 PM
Libby. I just looked at the first part of this series of videos. Ppplleea***ee. The first expert is an attorney named John Welch. At least he admits "We do not have definitive proof yet."
Nice of him to let me know so I will not waste my time chasing "plausible" Mormon theories.

Libby
02-27-2012, 06:21 PM
Libby, even though you say you are no longer LDS you do seem, at times, to want to defend certain claims and positions of theirs, which is fine, but because of that I will direct my question to you instead because RussianWolfe has not even TRIED to answer it.

Show us proof historically and archeologically that Nephites existed in America (or ANYPLACE for that matter) and I for one will start to take the BOM more seriously.

I watched two of the videos you posted and did not even get CLOSE to an answer for my above question. Could you please tell me which one of these videos answers my question above? Thank you.

Hi, JD. I am inclined to defend the Book of Mormon, partly, because I have never seen any serious criticism of it. Not being able to, precisely, pinpoint where it took place, doesn't mean it didn't exist, and is not a reason to discount it, IMO. There are a lot of questionable things in the Bible, that people do not discount, so why have a different standard for the Book of Mormon? Plus, there are many things (evidence) in it's favor, such as the Hebraisms, chaism, etc. Plus, just about every point made by critics (no horses, no chariots, no specific grains mentioned, etc) has been proven wrong on almost all counts. You will find that in those last set of videos provided.

Plus, it has been fairly well established that Joseph Smith did not/could not have written this book. Even experts have testified that it has several authors.

On top of that, I had a spiritual witness of it, myself, that I'm not about to deny.

That doesn't mean I believe everything about the church and I can even believe that Joseph may have been a fallen prophet...but, I do still believe that, at least, parts of the Book of Mormon were, somehow, inspired or given by God.

Billyray
02-27-2012, 06:24 PM
I am inclined to defend the Book of Mormon, partly, because I have never seen any serious criticism of it

Libby is that some kind of joke? There isn't any evidence for the Nephites living in the Americas. The book of mormon is religious fiction.

Libby
02-27-2012, 06:25 PM
Not a joke, Billy, but you are en***led to your opinion.

Billyray
02-27-2012, 06:27 PM
Not a joke, Billy, but you are en***led to your opinion.

Libby do you have any ancient writings that speak about the Nephites or the Lamanites in the Americas?

Radix
02-27-2012, 06:31 PM
I watch the segment on Reformed Egyptian. Not a single mention of the Caractors Smith provided Harris to show Anthon. How weak. Also noticed that I have been blocked by FAIR from leaving any comments. If I were to block them from a video I made, then LDS would look at me as a coward. Makes me wonder what I am suppose to think of them.

Libby
02-27-2012, 08:06 PM
I think responses like this only tend to prove the OP of this thread. For some people, there would never be enough proof.

Billyray
02-27-2012, 09:13 PM
I think responses like this only tend to prove the OP of this thread. For some people, there would never be enough proof.

How about any proof that the Nephites actually were a real people group who lived in the Americas?

Russianwolfe
02-27-2012, 10:47 PM
Of course he will not. His religion is too incompetent.

But you have not supported your claim. Why is it that I am the only one who is obligated to support my ***ertions, but you get off scott-free?

You made the claim and have not provided any evidence to support it. And you call me a coward?

Marvin

Billyray
02-27-2012, 11:24 PM
But you have not supported your claim.

Marvin

Marvin you are the one who has no evidence. Are you going to gives us any or not?

Libby
02-28-2012, 12:00 AM
You have been given, at least, "some" evidence, Billy, and there are books and papers and tons more where that came from. Have you bothered with any of it?

Radix
02-28-2012, 05:40 AM
You have been given, at least, "some" evidence, Billy, and there are books and papers and tons more where that came from. Have you bothered with any of it?

Just where is the tons of evidence for Nephites?

Billyray
02-28-2012, 07:26 AM
You have been given, at least, "some" evidence, Billy, and there are books and papers and tons more where that came from.

If you think that there is REAL evidence then pick what you think is the best evidence for the Nephites in the Americas so we can discuss it.

jdjhere
02-28-2012, 08:27 AM
BigJulie said: Did you watch the last video she gave in which it has been shown that the beliefs about the native americans in the past have been slowly refuted and that the culture is more in line with the Book of Mormon?

No, but I watched the first two, thinking it would show that their is proof for a race of people called Nephites in ancient America. Thanks BigJulie. I am really hoping to see if anybody in the last video talks about historical or archeological proof that the Nephites existed or my question will not be answered though and I will just see the last video as a smoke screen. Thanks again...here goes.

jdjhere
02-28-2012, 08:59 AM
OK... I watched the 9:53 Minute video by Mormon Professor Daniel C Petersen and the 2:20 minute Video by the founder of ARMS John Welch and there is exactly ZERO evidence mentioned by EITHER of these men that there is either historical or archeological evidence that the Nephites were a REAL race of people that existed in ancient America. As a matter of fact, Nephites are not even MENTIONED at all. As a matter of fact, John Welch ADMITS that the LDS church, in his own words, "We don't have definitive proof yet..." about archelogical or historical proofs for the BOM. You guys owe me 12 minutes of my life back. :p

RealFakeHair
02-28-2012, 11:50 AM
Okay, so it doesn't sound so spiritual as "Golden"
How bout the everlasting, but changing once-in-awhile Gospel of Latter day Saints?
Or Joseph Smith jr. sometimes Prophet, and full time hanky-panky?
Don't think so.
Golden Plates, if I could just find them, it would be better than winning the lottery.
I think I'll go have a walk in the woods.;)

jdjhere
02-28-2012, 12:19 PM
Those videos proved NOTHING. They are just an LDS Professor and Lawyer SAYING "nuh-uh." That's it. Those videos are what I was pointed to as proof??!!?? I mean... c'mon guys! ANYTHING (Historical Writing's or Archeological finds) for SCIENTIFIC PROOF of the Nephite race of people existing (and PLEASE do not tell me you have already given me some). If those videos are your proof, then I KNOW Nephites never existed. Do you have anything else Historical or scientific? Thanks.

RealFakeHair
02-28-2012, 12:25 PM
Those videos proved NOTHING. They are just an LDS Professor and Lawyer SAYING "nuh-uh." That's it. Those videos are what I was pointed to as proof??!!?? I mean... c'mon guys! ANYTHING (Historical Writing's or Archeological finds) for SCIENTIFIC PROOF of the Nephite race of people existing (and PLEASE do not tell me you have already given me some). If those videos are your proof, then I KNOW Nephites never existed. Do you have anything else Historical or scientific? Thanks.

In the eye of the beholder, or something?
Like finding the pot of gold at then end of the rainbow.
The Fountain of Youth, or a mormon that doesn't believe in UFOs.
It won't happen.:rolleyes:

Libby
02-28-2012, 12:35 PM
OK... I watched the 9:53 Minute video by Mormon Professor Daniel C Petersen and the 2:20 minute Video by the founder of ARMS John Welch and there is exactly ZERO evidence mentioned by EITHER of these men that there is either historical or archeological evidence that the Nephites were a REAL race of people that existed in ancient America. As a matter of fact, Nephites are not even MENTIONED at all. As a matter of fact, John Welch ADMITS that the LDS church, in his own words, "We don't have definitive proof yet..." about archelogical or historical proofs for the BOM. You guys owe me 12 minutes of my life back. :p

Oh wow, 12 whole minutes and you're an expert? :p

This is part of the problem. You guys will watch HOURS of anti-Mormon videos and then think you are some kind of expert on the subject. But, when asked to watch several videos from the church and it's just too much trouble and not worth it.

Once you've really put some effort into it, then perhaps some LDS might take you seriously. (Not just you, but the collective you)

In the meantime, I have better things to do.

Radix
02-28-2012, 12:41 PM
Those videos proved NOTHING. They are just an LDS Professor and Lawyer SAYING "nuh-uh." That's it. Those videos are what I was pointed to as proof??!!?? I mean... c'mon guys! ANYTHING (Historical Writing's or Archeological finds) for SCIENTIFIC PROOF of the Nephite race of people existing (and PLEASE do not tell me you have already given me some). If those videos are your proof, then I KNOW Nephites never existed. Do you have anything else Historical or scientific? Thanks.

jdjhere, I would be fine if they would just admit they actually have nothing.

theway
02-28-2012, 12:45 PM
..."We don't have definitive proof yet..." about archelogical or historical proofs for the BOM. You guys owe me 12 minutes of my life back. :pNo... because you were warned by the scriptures before you started.
Those who seek for a sign, shall not be given one. (Matt 16:4)

RealFakeHair
02-28-2012, 12:47 PM
Oh wow, 12 whole minutes and you're an expert? :p

This is part of the problem. You guys will watch HOURS of anti-Mormon videos and then think you are some kind of expert on the subject. But, when asked to watch several videos from the church and it's just too much trouble and not worth it.

Once you've really put some effort into it, then perhaps some LDS might take you seriously. (Not just you, but the collective you)

In the meantime, I have better things to do.

Does 40 + years count?:cool:

RealFakeHair
02-28-2012, 12:58 PM
No... because you were warned by the scriptures before you started.
Those who seek for a sign, shall not be given one. (Matt 16:4)

He went to the woods to pray about which church to join?
:confused:

Billyray
02-28-2012, 02:31 PM
Oh wow, 12 whole minutes and you're an expert?

Give us what you think is the best piece of so called evidence so we can talk about it.

Billyray
02-28-2012, 02:32 PM
No... because you were warned by the scriptures before you started.
Those who seek for a sign, shall not be given one. (Matt 16:4)

So this is your cop out answer for not giving us any evidence. Nice!

Radix
02-28-2012, 04:05 PM
I think responses like this only tend to prove the OP of this thread. For some people, there would never be enough proof.

Your lack of a cogent response is sad here Libby. I realized you did the best you could, but it would be easier to say you really do not have anything.

jdjhere
02-28-2012, 05:51 PM
Uh...Libby? Even though you are not LDS, you were the one that gave us video "evidence"... and now you are blaming ME for watching it?? I am just saying it gave ZERO evidence because it does not even mention Nephites. Well, garsh, aren't I a sucker. I dont claim to be an expert after watching the 12 minutes of video, I just saw zero evidence of what I was asking for. Now, for one last time, how about some actual evidence, by name, that the N-E-P-H-I-T-E-S actually existed in ancient America by producing some kind of Archealogical artifact or legitimate historical document that mentions them? That is all I am after. No more videos that don't even mention Nephites please. Thank you.

Libby
02-28-2012, 10:14 PM
Your lack of a cogent response is sad here Libby. I realized you did the best you could, but it would be easier to say you really do not have anything.

No, it wouldn't, because that would be a lie.

Libby
02-28-2012, 10:16 PM
Uh...Libby? Even though you are not LDS, you were the one that gave us video "evidence"... and now you are blaming ME for watching it?? I am just saying it gave ZERO evidence because it does not even mention Nephites. Well, garsh, aren't I a sucker. I dont claim to be an expert after watching the 12 minutes of video, I just saw zero evidence of what I was asking for. Now, for one last time, how about some actual evidence, by name, that the N-E-P-H-I-T-E-S actually existed in ancient America by producing some kind of Archealogical artifact or legitimate historical document that mentions them? That is all I am after. No more videos that don't even mention Nephites please. Thank you.

Did you watch every single video? I don't think anyone can possibly watch all of those videos and claim there is "no" evidence, whatsoever. That, plus, numerous other works, do not add up to ZERO. Sorry.

Billyray
02-28-2012, 10:19 PM
No, it wouldn't, because that would be a lie.

Then it should be easy for you to give us some real evidence that the Nephites actually were a people group that really lived in the Americas.

Libby
02-28-2012, 10:22 PM
Watch the videos, Billy, read some Nibley and numerous others, who have talked about the Book of Mormon.

I already gave some basic examples...Hebraisms/Chiasm...I have seen some pretty credible claims about an area in Central America that fits the landscape in the Book of Mormon to a tee...and much more..

Billyray
02-28-2012, 10:30 PM
I already gave some basic examples...Hebraisms/Chiasm...

Libby these do not prove that the Nephites were a real people group that existed in the Americas. Libby wake up--the book of mormon is religious fiction.

jdjhere
02-28-2012, 10:37 PM
I watched 4 of them and NONE of the ones I watched ever even mentioned Nephites. All I want to know, so I dont waste time, is do ANY of the remaining videos mention the Nephites by name and do they give archeological or historical evidences that they ever actually existed. This is simply a Yes or No answer. If the answer is Yes, please point me to the correct video. If the answer is No, just say so and we can move on. If there is archeological or historical evidence (proof) in these videos this would be the first that I have heard of any and it would be interesting to follow up on it. Thank you.

Radix
02-29-2012, 06:58 AM
No, it wouldn't, because that would be a lie.

Then one more time Libby, provide some evidence of Nephites. There is NOTHING in the videos you linked. I watched those Peterson videos a couple of years ago. Was quite disappointed, was expecting some sort of challenge, and it did not really provide much.

Mormons for decades have claimed there is more and more evidence backing up the Book of Mormon. It is NOTHING more than wishful speculations. Ex. the tree of Lehi Stella. Going back even further LDS ***umed the Mayan and Aztec temples could have been early "Mormon" temples. ALL wishful thinking.

Libby
02-29-2012, 01:03 PM
Book of Mormon Evidences discusses some of the factors that suggest the Book of Mormon may be an ancient document. Contrary to the claims of our critics, there are impressive findings that make it difficult to explain away the Book of Mormon as a nineteenth-century fraud from Joseph Smith. Such evidence is not "proof" but represents indications of plausibility that demand further attention.

http://www.jefflindsay.com/BMEvidences.shtml

Evidences of the Book of Mormon (http://maxwellins***ute.byu.edu/publications/transcripts/?id=1)

Dr. Peterson has always put a lot store by Book of Mormon Witnesses, which, after reading a book by that ***le, have to say is pretty good evidence.

http://the-book-of-mormon.com/

Archaeological Evidence and the Book of Mormon by Michael R. Ash (http://www.fairlds.org/authors/ash-michael/archaeological-evidence-and-the-book-of-mormon)

This was the video I was speaking about earlier, regarding Book of Mormon lands.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jNcUqmRq9KY

theway
02-29-2012, 01:23 PM
I watched 4 of them and NONE of the ones I watched ever even mentioned Nephites. All I want to know, so I dont waste time, is do ANY of the remaining videos mention the Nephites by name and do they give archeological or historical evidences that they ever actually existed. This is simply a Yes or No answer. If the answer is Yes, please point me to the correct video. If the answer is No, just say so and we can move on. If there is archeological or historical evidence (proof) in these videos this would be the first that I have heard of any and it would be interesting to follow up on it. Thank you.So basically you want a "Nephi slept here" sign. Well... there is not one.
Ironically though there has been found a "Jesus sleeps here" bone box which has been found, that actually contains bones.
The first response by everyone was that it was a fake.
The only problem is that last week they found the earliest known writing by a Christian, on another bonebox nearby that could not be a fake. They say that this find leads credence to the fact that the, "Jesus son of Joseph bonebox" was not a fake.

So the problem for you is; do you believe the evidence that is right in front of you, that Jesus' bones have been found, or do you discount the evidence and go by your faith that it has to be some other Jesus son of Joseph and Mary?

jdjhere
02-29-2012, 01:58 PM
I wil not follow a rabbitt hole while my request goes unanswered TheWay. And I am not really interested in where "Nephi" slept but I would LOVE to see evidence for a WHOLE race of people called Nephites. I am going to watch the last video that Libby posted and see where THAT takes me instead of switching the subject to Jesus's "Burial Box." If you want to talk about that, start another thread. I am sure you will get lots of hits and the LDS and Evangelicals will probably agree on a few things in this area. I am sticking with evidences for Nephites. Thanks.

jdjhere
02-29-2012, 02:12 PM
Honestly, I think if an entire RACE of people called "Nephites" existed that it would not be that big a challenge to find SOME KIND of substantial evidence for that existence. Did they have tools, money, buildings or structures, clothing, weapons, boats, jewelry, historical books kept, other races of people mentioning them in their books, legends or lores? You would think we could find something of them and YES, why NOT by name? We found someone names Jesus's burial box....correct?

Billyray
02-29-2012, 02:59 PM
So basically you want a "Nephi slept here" sign.

I want evidence that the Nephites actually were a people group that lived in the Americas. Isn't that a reasonable request?

RealFakeHair
02-29-2012, 04:19 PM
So basically you want a "Nephi slept here" sign. Well... there is not one.
Ironically though there has been found a "Jesus sleeps here" bone box which has been found, that actually contains bones.
The first response by everyone was that it was a fake.
The only problem is that last week they found the earliest known writing by a Christian, on another bonebox nearby that could not be a fake. They say that this find leads credence to the fact that the, "Jesus son of Joseph bonebox" was not a fake.

So the problem for you is; do you believe the evidence that is right in front of you, that Jesus' bones have been found, or do you discount the evidence and go by your faith that it has to be some other Jesus son of Joseph and Mary?

Nephi slept here, at the hotel 6 3/4, or something.
I like to play games too, but I like money more.
Money, I wonder what price you could put on any Pre-Columbus artifacts from the Book of Mormon, found in :eek:.

Radix
02-29-2012, 05:04 PM
So basically you want a "Nephi slept here" sign. Well... there is not one.
Ironically though there has been found a "Jesus sleeps here" bone box which has been found, that actually contains bones.
The first response by everyone was that it was a fake.
The only problem is that last week they found the earliest known writing by a Christian, on another bonebox nearby that could not be a fake. They say that this find leads credence to the fact that the, "Jesus son of Joseph bonebox" was not a fake.

So the problem for you is; do you believe the evidence that is right in front of you, that Jesus' bones have been found, or do you discount the evidence and go by your faith that it has to be some other Jesus son of Joseph and Mary?

So are you admitting there is no proof for Nephites or just no proof for Nephi himself? If you are saying there is no proof for Nephites I will go ahead and say thank you. You are the first here to admit it.

Concerning a bonebox with the bones of Jesus, please provide the reference. James Cameron and Simcha Jacobovici provided a joke of a film a few years ago. Of course their idea of scholarship was sorely lacking. It would have never stood a second in an academic peer review process. Just curious if your rehashing that garbage again.

theway
02-29-2012, 05:13 PM
Nephi slept here, at the hotel 6 3/4, or something.
I like to play games too, but I like money more.
Money, I wonder what price you could put on any Pre-Columbus artifacts from the Book of Mormon, found in :eek:.Great... I've been to plenty of digs in South America and have tons of Precolumbian artifacts from the Book of Mormon times (most from Peru). The average price I have put on them is about 2000$ I have some nice stone war club heads and stone throwing slings, used by the Lamanites, Lots of pottery and textiles from the Nephites etc... Care to purchase any? Which one would you like?

theway
02-29-2012, 05:28 PM
So are you admitting there is no proof for Nephites or just no proof for Nephi himself? If you are saying there is no proof for Nephites I will go ahead and say thank you. You are the first her to admit it.
No... what I am asking is, what would a Nephite artifact look like?


Concerning a bonebox with the bones of Jesus, please provide the reference. James Cameron and Simcha Jacobovici provided a joke of a film a few years ago. Of course their idea of scholarship was sorely lacking. It would have never stood a second in an academic peer review process. Just curious if your rehashing that garbage again. And a recent discovery of an earliest known and undisturbed Christian tomb and bone box, close to the discovery of the Jesus tomb, lends support for the fact that the first tomb was probably real.
My point was, that you guys want archeological evidence in order to prove something is true; however you will simply lable it a joke or attack the scholarship of experts if you don’t like the results.
So what would be the point of providing you with any evidence then?

Billyray
02-29-2012, 05:34 PM
No... what I am asking is, what would a Nephite artifact look like?


How about any ancient writings from either the Lamanites or Nephites.

Russianwolfe
02-29-2012, 06:09 PM
Honestly, I think if an entire RACE of people called "Nephites" existed that it would not be that big a challenge to find SOME KIND of substantial evidence for that existence. Did they have tools, money, buildings or structures, clothing, weapons, boats, jewelry, historical books kept, other races of people mentioning them in their books, legends or lores? You would think we could find something of them and YES, why NOT by name? We found someone names Jesus's burial box....correct?

Show me from the Book of Mormon where you get the idea that the Nephites were an entire race.

Jews live in New York and Herman Wouk has written about them in many of his books. If you only have those books to go by, it would seem that the Jews dominated New York. He only mentions the goyim in p***ing and they almost never play a major role. But, according to your logic, the Jews are an 'entire race' that occupied New York and domintated life there.

So, please, provide me with references from the Book of Mormon that lead you to conclude that the Nephites were an entire race.

Marvin

Radix
03-01-2012, 06:31 AM
http://www.jefflindsay.com/BMEvidences.shtml

Evidences of the Book of Mormon (http://maxwellins***ute.byu.edu/publications/transcripts/?id=1)

Dr. Peterson has always put a lot store by Book of Mormon Witnesses, which, after reading a book by that ***le, have to say is pretty good evidence.

http://the-book-of-mormon.com/

Archaeological Evidence and the Book of Mormon by Michael R. Ash (http://www.fairlds.org/authors/ash-michael/archaeological-evidence-and-the-book-of-mormon)

This was the video I was speaking about earlier, regarding Book of Mormon lands.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jNcUqmRq9KY

Again Libby, nothing in ANY of those referenced that actually supports that Nephites ever existed. All you and LDS have to support that is the word of a man with a rock in a hat pulled over his face.

Notice the favorite LDS word "plausible." Everything they presents is "plausible." I guess one could say that until we dig up and take the moon completely apart, it is "plausible" for tall Puritan men to be living on the moon as Smith said as well.

jdjhere
03-01-2012, 08:53 AM
Well, at least the last video MENTIONS the Nephites (and Lamanites wanting to wipe out the Nephites for that matter!). Unfortunately, this is all just speculation by LDS that all this stuff actually happened and that these people were actually CALLED Nephites. The evidence I would like to see is something from this area that PROVES the Nephites even existed. Does the BOM say how many Nephites that there were? To give them an actual NAME I ***umed they were a RACE of people. How many were there (roughly??)

TheWAy stated: "I have some nice stone war club heads and stone throwing slings, used by the Lamanites, Lots of pottery and textiles from the Nephites..."

Now THIS is interesting. Can you provide scientific evidence OUTSIDE LDS circles that prove these artifacts belonged to the Lamanites and Nephites and not other people that inhabited this area? Olmecs, Aztecs, Toltecs and Mayans are mentioned as being in this area but there is no mention by name of Nephites or Lamanites. Is it the OFFICIAL position of the LDS Church now that this area IS the actual area that the BOM speaks of is around Teotihuacan on the Yucatan Peninsula? It also mentions that the great war at Cumorah took place around this area (at least I think that is what they said??). Any idea where this was? Is it now the OFFICIAL position of the LDS Church that the Cumorah in NY is NOT the Cumorah that the great battle took place? Thanks.

Note: Wikipedia for Nephites: Some LDS scholars believe that the forebears of the Nephites settled somewhere in present-day Central America after departing Jerusalem. However, both the Smithsonian Ins***ution and the National Geographic Society have issued statements that they have seen no evidence to support these claims in the Book of Mormon.

jdjhere
03-01-2012, 11:44 AM
The BOM in chapter 6:

11 And when they had gone through and hewn down all my people save it were twenty and four of us, (among whom was my son Moroni) and we having survived the dead of our people, did behold on the morrow, when the Lamanites had returned unto their camps, from the top of the hill Cumorah, the ten thousand of my people who were hewn down, being led in the front by me.

12 And we also beheld the ten thousand of my people who were led by my son Moroni.

13 And behold, the ten thousand of Gidgiddonah had fallen, and he also in the midst.

14 And Lamah had fallen with his ten thousand; and Gilgal had fallen with his ten thousand; and Limhah had fallen with his ten thousand; and Jeneum had fallen with his ten thousand; and Cumenihah, and Moronihah, and Antionum, and Shiblom, and Shem, and Josh, had fallen with their ten thousand each.

15 And it came to p*** that there were ten more who did fall by the sword, with their ten thousand each; yea, even all my people, save it were those twenty and four who were with me, and also a few who had escaped into the south countries, and a few who had deserted over unto the Lamanites, had fallen; and their flesh, and bones, and blood lay upon the face of the earth, being left by the hands of those who slew them to molder upon the land, and to crumble and to return to their mother earth.

So it was 130 or 140 Thousand Nephites who were killed by the Lamanites? I am just trying to get an accurate number. Thanks.

Libby
03-01-2012, 01:05 PM
Again Libby, nothing in ANY of those referenced that actually supports that Nephites ever existed. All you and LDS have to support that is the word of a man with a rock in a hat pulled over his face.

Notice the favorite LDS word "plausible." Everything they presents is "plausible." I guess one could say that until we dig up and take the moon completely apart, it is "plausible" for tall Puritan men to be living on the moon as Smith said as well.

Radix, I am not saying there is absolute proof. What I object to, is critics saying there is NONE. That's simply not true. If you study it carefully, there is actually quite a bit of evidence that this book is an ancient document. And, it's not at ALL likely that Joseph Smith wrote it. Even scholars outside of Mormonism admit that.

Also, the thing about Quaker men on the moon, likely, did not come from Joseph Smith. That's just another urban myth that critics like to throw around.

Billyray
03-01-2012, 01:07 PM
Radix, I am not saying there is absolute proof.

Libby there is no real proof. You said that your role here is to propagate truth. Your are not standing by your promise.

Billyray
03-01-2012, 01:16 PM
Also, the thing about Quaker men on the moon, likely, did not come from Joseph Smith. That's just another urban myth that critics like to throw around.
That came from Brigham Young and it NOT an urban myth. Lets see you stick with truth. How about it?

jdjhere
03-01-2012, 05:56 PM
Libby, can I ask you a personal question about why you are not LDS anymore? I understand you are trying to be fair and seem like you are a peacekeeper and just want everbody to get along. That is fine to a certain point but Truth is Truth and IF the whole LDS belief system is made up, it is a lie and should not be believed. When you say things like it is doubtful that Joseph Smith even wrote the BOM it makes me wonder where you stand. If Joseph Smith did not write the BOM, who did? (Solomon Spaulding's M****cript Found is my guess).What was your spritual event you had happen as an LDS you mentioned? I am curious and its OK if you do not want to answer.

Libby
03-01-2012, 06:30 PM
That came from Brigham Young and it NOT an urban myth. Lets see you stick with truth. How about it?

Billy, stop inferring that I'm a liar. I have heard this Quaker thing attributed to Joseph Smith and that is the truth. The claim was in Oliver Huntington's journal, which was told to him by someone named Philo Dibble, so it's, basically, third hand information, which is why it is not considered reliable, by some.

But, the fact is, this belief about people inhabiting the moon was very common, even among scientists of the day. So, it wouldn't be, particularly, surprising that Joseph and Brigham both believed that. Most likely, so did most of your Evangelical pastors of that day.

http://en.fairmormon.org/Joseph_Smith/Moon_inhabited

Libby
03-01-2012, 07:12 PM
Libby, can I ask you a personal question about why you are not LDS anymore? I understand you are trying to be fair and seem like you are a peacekeeper and just want everbody to get along. That is fine to a certain point but Truth is Truth and IF the whole LDS belief system is made up, it is a lie and should not be believed. When you say things like it is doubtful that Joseph Smith even wrote the BOM it makes me wonder where you stand. If Joseph Smith did not write the BOM, who did? (Solomon Spaulding's M****cript Found is my guess).What was your spritual event you had happen as an LDS you mentioned? I am curious and its OK if you do not want to answer.

I don't mind, jd, except I'd rather not talk about my spiritual experiences with the Book of Mormon.

I think "truth", especially in regards to spiritual matters, can be very subjective and even elusive on this physical plane. We live in a world of dualities, which makes it difficult for us to know or understand God. Plus, God does, indeed, work in mysterious ways.

I don't know who wrote the Book of Mormon. It may be exactly what it is claimed to be. It may be a true history of some people that actually inhabited this planet...or it may be a work of fiction, with some inspiration here and there. I'm not interested in judging it. It's existence has moved many people closer to God and encouraged them to follow Jesus and try and live godly lives, so that validates it, IMHO.

As for why I am not LDS...for me this religion (the LDS Church) was a springboard back to a path that is better suited for me. I started on my current path, many years ago, but I wasn't quite ready for it, then.

Billyray
03-01-2012, 07:32 PM
Billy, stop inferring that I'm a liar.

If you are telling me the truth then why did you call it a urban myth when you know full well that Brigham Young made this statement?

Libby
03-01-2012, 07:39 PM
If you are telling me the truth then why did you call it a urban myth when you know full well that Brigham Young made this statement?

Because, I didn't "know full well" that Brigham had said that. My recollection was that it had been Joseph Smith (which it was..or at least that is the claim) and I also recollected that some LDS, writing on this subject, believed the information to be "iffy" and perhaps untrue.

You claimed it wasn't from Joseph Smith. Were you "lying"??

Radix
03-01-2012, 07:43 PM
Radix, I am not saying there is absolute proof. What I object to, is critics saying there is NONE. That's simply not true. If you study it carefully, there is actually quite a bit of evidence that this book is an ancient document. And, it's not at ALL likely that Joseph Smith wrote it. Even scholars outside of Mormonism admit that.

Also, the thing about Quaker men on the moon, likely, did not come from Joseph Smith. That's just another urban myth that critics like to throw around.

Libby, there is absolutely NO EVIDENCE for Nephites. Just because native American Indians lived here does not automatically make them Nephites because Joseph Smith said so. There is nada, nothing to back up the existence of Nephites. Only wishful thinking superimposed onto the native American people.

Libby
03-01-2012, 07:49 PM
Libby, there is absolutely NO EVIDENCE for Nephites. Just because native American Indians lived here does not automatically make them Nephites because Joseph Smith said so. There is nada, nothing to back up the existence of Nephites. Only wishful thinking superimposed onto the native American people.

I'm not really arguing that there is "evidence for Nephites". I am arguing evidence that the Book of Mormon may, indeed, be an ancient document, and that the existence of Nephites is, at least, plausible, even though there may not, yet, be physical proof. (Some believe there is actual physical proof, as well, though)..

But, to try and argue that there is NO evidence for the Book of Mormon, whatsoever, is just plainly untrue.

Billyray
03-01-2012, 08:34 PM
Because, I didn't "know full well" that Brigham had said that. My recollection was that it had been Joseph Smith (which it was..or at least that is the claim) and I also recollected that some LDS, writing on this subject, believed the information to be "iffy" and perhaps untrue.


So if you were unclear why did you say it was an urban myth?

Libby you are not promoting truth like you claimed that you were doing on this site. You are simply defending the false teachings of Mormonism tooth and nail like I have said about you all along.

Libby
03-01-2012, 09:26 PM
So if you were unclear why did you say it was an urban myth?

Some LDS do believe it's in the realm of "urban myth" and it may very well be. There is no positive proof that JS ever said anything like that. There is hearsay, third hand, from one person.


Libby you are not promoting truth like you claimed that you were doing on this site. You are simply defending the false teachings of Mormonism tooth and nail like I have said about you all along.

And, as you have been "all along", you are mistaken.

Radix
03-01-2012, 09:27 PM
I'm not really arguing that there is "evidence for Nephites". I am arguing evidence that the Book of Mormon may, indeed, be an ancient document, and that the existence of Nephites is, at least, plausible, even though there may not, yet, be physical proof. (Some believe there is actual physical proof, as well, though)..

But, to try and argue that there is NO evidence for the Book of Mormon, whatsoever, is just plainly untrue.

It is ALL speculation when relating real facts to the Book of Mormon. No one outside the LDS church has even a moment's thought of giving the Book of Mormon an iota of credibility.

We know the Jewish people are legit. Not so with Nephites.
We know where several cities of the Bible are located. We know the locations (of cities specific to the Book of Mormon) of NONE of the BofM cities. None of them.
We have information outside the Bible it self confirming the existence of several of the people mentioned. No proof for any of the BofM folks. Individual or nations. While there is proof of pre Colombian trans Atlantic travel, that dose not cons***ute proof for the BofM.
There is evidence of several native languages, nothing is similar to those doodles by Joseph Smith provided to Martin Harris.
This list can go on and on.

Billyray
03-01-2012, 10:05 PM
Some LDS do believe it's in the realm of "urban myth" and it may very well be. There is no positive proof that JS ever said anything like that. There is hearsay, third hand, from one person.


We have the statement by Brigham Young in the Journal of Discourses. Wake up Libby what on earth are you trying to pull here anyway?

Billyray
03-01-2012, 10:07 PM
And, as you have been "all along", you are mistaken.

I am still puzzled by what you think you are accomplishing with your posts here on this board. IMO you certainly are not helping Mormonism in any way but rather you are hurting their cause. The only possible reason that I can see is that you think in the back of your mind that Mormonism might possibly be true and you feel guilty by your posts in the past that criticized Mormonism.

Libby
03-01-2012, 10:33 PM
It is ALL speculation when relating real facts to the Book of Mormon. No one outside the LDS church has even a moment's thought of giving the Book of Mormon an iota of credibility.


Actually, I know of it least one Baptist Minister who believes it is true, plus many in his congregation. They worship with RLDS Mormons fairly often. They are a charismatic group.

It may be speculation, but it is backed up with evidence (some of which I have presented here..and there is much more). It's not just pure speculation.

Libby
03-01-2012, 10:34 PM
We have the statement by Brigham Young in the Journal of Discourses. Wake up Libby what on earth are you trying to pull here anyway?

What statement, Billy? I know Brigham believed it, but did he attribute it to Joseph Smith? If he did, I was unaware of that.

Libby
03-01-2012, 10:44 PM
I am still puzzled by what you think you are accomplishing with your posts here on this board. IMO you certainly are not helping Mormonism in any way but rather you are hurting their cause. The only possible reason that I can see is that you think in the back of your mind that Mormonism might possibly be true and you feel guilty by your posts in the past that criticized Mormonism.

Amateur psychologist? :) What do you think you are accomplishing here, Billy?

I don't feel guilty, but I do believe I was, somewhat, guilty of posting some things against Mormonism that were not strictly accurate.

Critics are usually guilty of making much of things that are really not that important (like this whole Quakers on the Moon thing). That was something I recognized in myself that I didn't feel good about.

As for the truth, there is most definitely some truth in Mormonism and I believe it is just as valid of a religious practice as most. I think people are wasting their time in a very negative pursuit against a religion that has actually created a lot of good in this world.

But, I understand the critics point of view, as well. They believe these people are going to burn in some eternal hell. I think that is a highly erroneous belief...but, if you're stuck there, I understand it is the guiding force. (Most unfortunate, IMHO)

Billyray
03-01-2012, 10:50 PM
What statement, Billy? I know Brigham believed it, but did he attribute it to Joseph Smith? If he did, I was unaware of that.
Quaker men statement was from Brigham Young in the Journal of Discourses.

". . .Brigham Young expanded on the teaching that the Sun was inhabited.

"Who can tell us of the inhabitants of this little planet that shines of an evening, called the moon?... when you inquire about the inhabitants of that sphere you find that the most learned are as ******** in regard to them as the most ******** of their fathers. So it is in regard to the inhabitants of the sun. Do you think it is inhabited? I rather think it is. Do you think there is any life there? No question of it; it was not made in vain. It was made to give light to those who dwell upon it, and to other planets; and so will this earth when it is celestialized".8. . ."
Brigham Young, July 24, 1870, Journal of Discourses 13:271
http://www.mrm.org/moon-men


This was also attributed to Joseph Smith

". . .According to a Mormon-friendly and official Church-published source, Joseph Smith taught that the moon was inhabited by people that dressed like Quakers. With Philo Dibble, a close ***ociate with Joseph Smith, as his source, Oliver B. Huntington wrote with significant detail:

"The inhabitants of the moon are more of a uniform size than the inhabitants of the earth, being about 6 feet in height. They dress very much like the Quaker style and are quite general in style or the one fashion of dress. They live to be very old; coming generally, near a thousand years. This is the description of them as given by Joseph the Seer, and he could 'See' whatever he asked the Father in the name of Jesus to see"1
Huntington was quoted in the Young Woman's Journal, which "was adopted as the official magazine for the Young Ladies Mutual Improvement ***ociation in 1897."2. . ."
http://www.mrm.org/moon-men

Billyray
03-01-2012, 10:51 PM
I don't feel guilty, but I do believe I was, somewhat, guilty of posting some things against Mormonism that were not strictly accurate.


Now you are promoting things that are not accurate. But you don't seem to have a problem with that I guess.

Billyray
03-01-2012, 10:54 PM
Critics are usually guilty of making much of things that are really not that important (like this whole Quakers on the Moon thing).

I usually don't make a big deal about these sorts of things but they are certainly important because a so called prophet of God (both JS and BY) both promoted these completely foolish things which shows that they are leading people astray from the truth. One of many inaccurate things that they promoted. Yet you claim to be non Mormon and you try and support these false teachers.

Libby
03-02-2012, 12:05 AM
Now you are promoting things that are not accurate. But you don't seem to have a problem with that I guess.

What have I said that was inaccurate? I explained why I called the statement about Joseph Smith an "urban myth".

I've never said a thing about Brigham. You brought him into it.

If most people in that day, including scientists, believed that, why would it be surprising that Brigham believed it? Do you think past prophets never believed in any of the supers***ions or erroneous beliefs of their culture?

Besides which, I am not coming from the perspective that Joseph Smith or Brigham Young were "prophets".

Billyray
03-02-2012, 12:17 AM
Besides which, I am not coming from the perspective that Joseph Smith or Brigham Young were "prophets".

if they were not prophets then the were complete liars and you are telling me that you are defending these guys?

Libby
03-02-2012, 12:25 AM
if they were not prophets then the were complete liars and you are telling me that you are defending these guys?

I don't hold to your black and white thinking, Billy.

I am pretty sure they thought they were prophets, and so do a lot of other people (millions).

Just because you or I don't believe it, doesn't, necessarily, follow that they were "complete liars". I think they were mistaken about a LOT of things, but I believe they also hit on quite a bit of truth. (A lot more than Calvin)..

Billyray
03-02-2012, 06:43 AM
I don't hold to your black and white thinking, Billy.

I am pretty sure they thought they were prophets, and so do a lot of other people (millions).


Libby some things are black and white. Either there us a God or there is not. Either a person (such as Joseph Smith or Brigham Young) was a true prophet or a false prophet. You believe that they were false prophets yet you support and encourage people to believe these false prophets. Do you think that you can justify before men or God why you would encourage others to believe the teachings of false prophets?

Radix
03-02-2012, 06:52 AM
Actually, I know of it least one Baptist Minister who believes it is true, plus many in his congregation. They worship with RLDS Mormons fairly often. They are a charismatic group.

It may be speculation, but it is backed up with evidence (some of which I have presented here..and there is much more). It's not just pure speculation.

Libby, in order for it to be more than speculation, something must actually connect the dots here with more then just a plausible theory or ***umption. Until any of that evidence has a clear connection, then it is ONLY SPECULATION and nothing more than that.

Any idea if that Baptist minister has anything other than speculation to determine if the BofM is true? If not, then he has been conned as well. But for the sake of discussion here, I should have said that no one in the academic arena (outside of LDS themselves) believes any of the so called BofM evidences actually can be taken seriously.

Libby
03-02-2012, 01:27 PM
Libby some things are black and white. Either there us a God or there is not. Either a person (such as Joseph Smith or Brigham Young) was a true prophet or a false prophet. You believe that they were false prophets yet you support and encourage people to believe these false prophets. Do you think that you can justify before men or God why you would encourage others to believe the teachings of false prophets?

I don't believe they were "false prophets", Billy. I encourage people to find the good, wherever it may be, and leave whatever is not good by the wayside. I encourage people to utilize whatever it is that brings them closer to God, and makes them feel his Presence in their lives.

Some basic truths are black and white, yes, but most things are not as black and white as you like to make them (IMHO).

Libby
03-02-2012, 01:32 PM
Libby, in order for it to be more than speculation, something must actually connect the dots here with more then just a plausible theory or ***umption. Until any of that evidence has a clear connection, then it is ONLY SPECULATION and nothing more than that.

Any idea if that Baptist minister has anything other than speculation to determine if the BofM is true? If not, then he has been conned as well. But for the sake of discussion here, I should have said that no one in the academic arena (outside of LDS themselves) believes any of the so called BofM evidences actually can be taken seriously.

The Baptist Minister has a Holy Spirit confirmation of the book. Bottom line, that is what is important.

As for speculation, as I've already said, there is a difference between "pure" speculation and speculation with some evidence to back it up. A lot of thought and study has gone into the Book of Mormon, and there are many indications (evidences) that this book may be ancient scripture.

Billyray
03-02-2012, 02:45 PM
I don't believe they were "false prophets", Billy.

So you believe that Joseph and Brigham were true prophets?

Billyray
03-02-2012, 02:47 PM
What do you think you are accomplishing here, Billy?



Pointing out how silly your arguments are so that others who may be searching will not end up mixed up in this false religion. I am under no illusion that you or the hard core LDS posters will ever leave behind you current beliefs.

Libby
03-02-2012, 03:39 PM
Pointing out how silly your arguments are so that others who may be searching will not end up mixed up in this false religion. I am under no illusion that you or the hard core LDS posters will ever leave behind you current beliefs.

Anyone's religious beliefs can be made to appear "silly"...even yours, Billy.

Bottom line, God only cares about what is in our hearts. Our love for him..and for one another.

Billyray
03-02-2012, 04:33 PM
Anyone's religious beliefs can be made to appear "silly"...even yours, Billy.


I said arguments not beliefs. You seem to believe mormonism is true yet you reject it. You believe the Bible but reject its teachings. You bounce from one religious belief to another and now you are Hindu yet you call yourself Christian. I am glad that you are here because you are doing more damage to Mormonism than any Mormon could do.

Radix
03-02-2012, 05:10 PM
The Baptist Minister has a Holy Spirit confirmation of the book. Bottom line, that is what is important.

As for speculation, as I've already said, there is a difference between "pure" speculation and speculation with some evidence to back it up. A lot of thought and study has gone into the Book of Mormon, and there are many indications (evidences) that this book may be ancient scripture.

Need something more than a confirmation of the Holy Spirit here Libby. The Holy Spirit has confirmed to me that the BofM is false. In addition to my spirit, the Holy Spirit has allowed me with my mind to confirm this as well.

Despite your desire for it to mean something more, there are no dots of reality connecting Nephites with native American people. It is not my fault this is the case, it is just the way it is.

Libby
03-02-2012, 05:17 PM
I said arguments not beliefs. You seem to believe mormonism is true yet you reject it. You believe the Bible but reject its teachings. You bounce from one religious belief to another and now you are Hindu yet you call yourself Christian. I am glad that you are here because you are doing more damage to Mormonism than any Mormon could do.

The arguments are about beliefs, Billy. There is a difference between "believing Mormonism" and finding some truth and value in it.

I am a Hindu-Christian.

Why are you attacking me, personally?

Libby
03-02-2012, 05:22 PM
Need something more than a confirmation of the Holy Spirit here Libby. The Holy Spirit has confirmed to me that the BofM is false. In addition to my spirit, the Holy Spirit has allowed me with my mind to confirm this as well.

Did you pray about it? Most Evangelicals will not, y/k? They don't think it's necessary. I'm not going to argue for or against this Baptist Minister. Neither you nor I can know what is in his heart or what his spiritual experiences were.


Despite your desire for it to mean something more, there are no dots of reality connecting Nephites with native American people. It is not my fault this is the case, it is just the way it is.

I have no desire for Mormonism to be true or false. I am only relating what I know of the very real work that has been done on the Book of Mormon. I know Ev's, typically, turn their back on it, so I'm not surprised at the resistance. But, evidence is there, none-the-less.

I'm going to leave this board, for now, as (per usual) the arguments are becoming circular. Take good care, Radix. God bless.

Billyray
03-02-2012, 05:38 PM
The arguments are about beliefs, Billy.

It is about YOUR arguments Libby. Here is what I am hearing you say. I don't believe mormonism but you are defending the truthfulness of mormonism. You don't believe that Joseph was a true prophet but you defend his false teachings. This type of argument makes no sense at all. It is like a defense attorney saying that his client is guilty but should be judged not guilty.

Billyray
03-02-2012, 05:47 PM
I have no desire for Mormonism to be true or false.
Then why the need to constantly defend it especially given the fact that you claim not to believe it?

Radix
03-02-2012, 05:57 PM
Did you pray about it? Most Evangelicals will not, y/k? They don't think it's necessary. I'm not going to argue for or against this Baptist Minister. Neither you nor I can know what is in his heart or what his spiritual experiences were.



I have no desire for Mormonism to be true or false. I am only relating what I know of the very real work that has been done on the Book of Mormon. I know Ev's, typically, turn their back on it, so I'm not surprised at the resistance. But, evidence is there, none-the-less.

I'm going to leave this board, for now, as (per usual) the arguments are becoming circular. Take good care, Radix. God bless.

I pray for the Lord to help me love Him with all my heart, soul, body and mind. I pray for His constant guidance and wisdom. Do I have to pray about everything? No. Things God makes obvious, I see no reason to pray about. Do I need to pray to God to know the sky is blue? Of course not. I have asked to correct me if I am wrong and to correct any of my misguided thinking.

Concerning the Baptist minister, I am not questioning his heart, I am questioning his mind. If he has no reasonable facts, then I can **** off his well intentioned, but misguided acceptance of a false story.

I notice your resistance to avoid dealing with the facts that there are no connecting points of reality concerning Nephites and native American Indians. In your heart I am sure your trying to be open minded, but you have yet to provide any evidence any one with an open mind can call reasonable legit.

James Banta
03-02-2012, 11:10 PM
Pa Pa, to add to your list--no ark of the covenant, no Urim and Thummin, no breastplate---all of these were artifacts Jewish theology.

None of these things claim to be the word of God.. The BofM does.. I don't need the actual plates. I don't need a word perfect copy of the writings on the plates. I do require the same level of originality as we have for the Bible.. I would like to have a copy of the BofM in the original language.. But no that is asking way too much.. That is holding it to the same level as I do the Bible but when that is asked what do I get? "A Bible a Bible we have got a Bible", or "I have a testimony".. Such feelings just don't come up to the same level of scholarship we have for the Bible if it could then we can talk about the BofM being scripture.. But this translation only nonsense that came from Smith just doesn't measure up to the same level of scholarship that is available in the Bible.. So come up with a original language copy of the plates or stop telling us that the translation of the BofM is in any way dependable..

Since we have copies of the original language of the Bible not is not to much ask that same evidence for the BofM.. The thing is Smith never had such a writing available to him.. Not copy on paper, and not an original on metal.. It just never existed at all.. IHS jim

Radix
03-03-2012, 06:12 AM
None of these things claim to be the word of God.. The BofM does.. I don't need the actual plates. I don't need a word perfect copy of the writings on the plates. I do require the same level of originality as we have for the Bible.. I would like to have a copy of the BofM in the original language.. But no that is asking way too much.. That is holding it to the same level as I do the Bible but when that is asked what do I get? "A Bible a Bible we have got a Bible", or "I have a testimony".. Such feelings just don't come up to the same level of scholarship we have for the Bible if it could then we can talk about the BofM being scripture.. But this translation only nonsense that came from Smith just doesn't measure up to the same level of scholarship that is available in the Bible.. So come up with a original language copy of the plates or stop telling us that the translation of the BofM is in any way dependable..

Since we have copies of the original language of the Bible not is not to much ask that same evidence for the BofM.. The thing is Smith never had such a writing available to him.. Not copy on paper, and not an original on metal.. It just never existed at all.. IHS jim

Good points as usual Jim. They ask us to produce a garden, but they cannot even produce the original language the BofM was translated from. Smith has even made it easy by way of the "caractors" he provided Harris, but nothing like it has ever surfaced.

Smith translating an unknown language is like a snake oil doctor claiming to have the cure of an unknown disease.

jdjhere
03-03-2012, 09:32 AM
BigJulie said: Pa Pa, to add to your list--no ark of the covenant, no Urim and Thummin, no breastplate---all of these were artifacts Jewish theology.

According to Joseph Smith, he had the Urim and the Thummin last so even he claims they existed becaused he used them in his translation of the BOM. So, LDS KNOW they existed, correct? So, even though we do not HAVE the Urim and Thummim, you can remove it from your "list."

James Banta
03-03-2012, 03:25 PM
BigJulie said: Pa Pa, to add to your list--no ark of the covenant, no Urim and Thummin, no breastplate---all of these were artifacts Jewish theology.

According to Joseph Smith, he had the Urim and the Thummin last so even he claims they existed becaused he used them in his translation of the BOM. So, LDS KNOW they existed, correct? So, even though we do not HAVE the Urim and Thummim, you can remove it from your "list."


I ask for no artifact.. I don't ask for the gold plates.. All I ask is a m****cript of the BofM is the original language just like we have for the Bible.. Is that too much to ask? We have such for the Bible. They want to give the BofM equality with the real scripture in asking that I ask for the same evidence that is given for the Bible.. Show a m****cript of the original language that the Bible was written in. Let us have the same opportunity we have for the Bible to place the language in the context of the original. After all no matter how honest, no matter how hard a translator tries to hold the meaning of such a text something of the full meaning is always lost in a translation.. I ask them to produce it or admit that the BofM is a story invented by Joseph Smith from his exposure to the legends, stories, and out and out myths invented in his own mind..

I don't see the LDS lining up to explain why a copy of the original language in unavailable. A simple rubbing of the pates could have produced it as quickly as a printing press can make copies of the set type used to publish a Sunday news paper in his era..IHS jim

RealFakeHair
03-06-2012, 04:10 PM
Great... I've been to plenty of digs in South America and have tons of Precolumbian artifacts from the Book of Mormon times (most from Peru). The average price I have put on them is about 2000$ I have some nice stone war club heads and stone throwing slings, used by the Lamanites, Lots of pottery and textiles from the Nephites etc... Care to purchase any? Which one would you like?

I got $1.98 left, and I'll give it all for a sword of steel, or something.:confused:

jdjhere
03-06-2012, 07:40 PM
Good luck with that James... :o No one has still never found ANY documents written in "Reformed Egyptian" so again, Good Luck with that!

Wikipedia says: According to the Book of Mormon, that scripture of the Latter Day Saint movement was originally written in reformed Egyptian characters on plates of "ore" by prophets living in the Western Hemisphere from perhaps as early as 2600 BC until as late as AD 421. Joseph Smith, Jr., the founder of the movement, published the Book of Mormon in 1830 as a translation of these golden plates. Scholarly reference works on languages do not, however, acknowledge the existence of either a "reformed Egyptian" language or "reformed Egyptian" script as it has been described in Mormon belief. No archaeological, linguistic, or other evidence of the use of Egyptian writing in ancient America has been discovered.

Radix
03-07-2012, 06:16 AM
No... what I am asking is, what would a Nephite artifact look like?

How about in a full length metal book of some writing than can back up Joseph's doodles seen in those "Caractors." As you can imagine, the list can go on.


And a recent discovery of an earliest known and undisturbed Christian tomb and bone box, close to the discovery of the Jesus tomb, lends support for the fact that the first tomb was probably real.
My point was, that you guys want archeological evidence in order to prove something is true; however you will simply lable it a joke or attack the scholarship of experts if you don’t like the results.
So what would be the point of providing you with any evidence then?

Sad to see you have been somewhat suckered in by some other hacks. James Cameroon a movie producer (one whom can certainly do epic ones well) and the Naked Archaeologist (who is not really an archaeologist.) Their documentary here side stepped any process of peer review. The names Joseph, Jesus and Mary have been found at other grave sites as well, they were common names.

jdjhere
03-07-2012, 11:59 AM
TheWay stated in Post #78" I have some nice stone war club heads and stone throwing slings, used by the Lamanites, Lots of pottery and textiles from the Nephites ..."

Ok, all side stepping, changing the subject, asking another question, ignoring and every other excuse anyone could ever possibly come up with, please answer the following question, TheWay:

What is your undeniable EVIDENCE that these items belonged to a group of people called the Lamanites and Nephites?

Wikipedia: According to the Book of Mormon, a religious text of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, a Nephite is a member of one of the four main groups of settlers of the ancient Americas. The other early settlers described in the Book of Mormon include the Lamanites, Jaredites and Mulekites. Some LDS scholars believe that the forebears of the Nephites settled somewhere in present-day Central America after departing Jerusalem. However, both the Smithsonian Ins***ution and the National Geographic Society have issued statements that they have seen no evidence to support these claims in the Book of Mormon.

jdjhere
03-07-2012, 03:03 PM
Helllooooo??? TheWay??? Is this going to be yet ANOTHER unanswered claim or what? Just please post your evidence when you get time. Thanks.

Apologette
03-14-2012, 10:04 AM
Many in the anti-Mormon community have criticized the fact that the plates upon which the Book of Mormon were taken (translated), and that they were “taken”, is very convenient” for the Mormons, because they are not available for comparison, review, inspection, etc. But in reality it is not ‘very inconvenient” at all, but “very necessary”. I have given much thought to what arguments would be made if we did have the “plates”. Before listing any it is only (FAIR©) to note that we do not have (no one has) the “Stone Tablets” upon which were engraved by the “Hand of God” the Ten Commandments. Because the OT was p***ed down via “Oral Tradition” we do not have (no one has) any original m****cripts. Beyond the OT, there are missing m****cripts of the NT as well. Also the “famous” or “infamous” missing books…


Note: Not all missing to all versions, but missing, or a more descriptive term may be “excluded”. Many scriptural books are alleged too have been written centuries after the advent of Christ. But returning to the main theme, what if we had the “plates of gold or br***”?

This is my list; maybe some of you could add? In addition I would also like a list from those representing other organizations or interests to list what they would need to be satisfied. Including for example IRR©, President Rob Bowman or others.

My list…

No one can read this language it is made up!

They have them but will not everyone see them…this already happens with many religious artifacts that are in the possession of others; made by those not allowed to see them.

They have not been carbon dated.

They have been carbon dated and scientists cannot agree.

Mormons don’t have Scholars or Scientists, BYU only teaches Pseudoscience. This one may have merit?

I don’t care what anyone says; I have not seen them!

OK the comments made there on the plates are correct according to the inscription, but there is no evidence beyond written that Nephites and Laminites ever existed.

The plates are plagiarized from the Bible.

“A Bible, a Bible, we have got a Bible and there can be no other Bible”.
There theology does not match orthodoxy and therefore it is false.

It does no agree with our “Creeds”!

They store them behind protective gl***, how do we know what it is? BTW, the Church is a con has the money to produce something and do this!

No God would require obedience for salvation.

I will add others as additional posts…

My list for why they are not available…”all of the above”.

Be serious and have fun.

First of all, your claims that the OT artifacts mentioned possibly never existed are a moot point since your cult claims to believe the OT. Unless, of course,you Mormons are willing to stand up and say, "heck no, we don't believe the OT." We've had one of your own "scholars" come over to CARM, for instance, and make fun of believing in "talking donkeys" and other OT accounts. Even to the point of claiming that the OT has little historical value. If you wish to come out and state that you agree with those who denigrate the OT, fine. But Mormons who continuously belittle the OT, but p*** out KJV copies of the Bible which they claim to believe, are being hypocritical at the least in view of the enormous Mormon attack against the OT on forums such as this. I might point out that Jesus Christ believed the OT without equivocation and He rose from the dead. I'll stand with Christ.

Furthermore, Smith was no fool. He knew that if his "gold plates" scheme was proven to be a hoax his whole religious system would fall. Thus, he covered up the plates (supposedly), and only allowed a few to "see" them, but all these witnesses (other than immediate family members) admitted they only saw the gold plates with their "spiritual eyses." This is related to the "third eye" belief prevalent in the nineteenth century. Then, when his "translation" from the altered Spaulding m****cript was completed, he had Mornoni fly down and grab the plates like some greedy McDonald's customer grabs a hamburger! Scoop it up, and Poof, they are gone. People that are not Mormons can see thru this silly fabrication, Mormons have to believe it (even if some doubt). I have no doubt that Cowdery fashioned some kind of prop (his father was a blacksmith and he knew the art) - Joseph probably persuaded him to do so, claiming it was necessary to promote belief, or some such tactic. Cowdery, who was in need of a *** and money was not above being persuaded. Read his history.

And then the Moroni swooping scam - no plates - no way to either confirm or deny Smith's tall story. It all is based on faith in Joseph Smith, a "prophet" who used his power to seduce teenage girls, marry the wives of other men, trick his wife repeatedly, and rip off the finances of his followers to the point where he lived in a huge mansion in Nauvoo while many of his disciples had to do with clapboard shacks. To the point where he wore highly polished leather boots while his own sister's family went barefoot. Some prophet!

Anybody who has studied the profiles of cult leaders knows that Jospeh Smith is a cl***ic example of someone who misused the credulity of uneducated 19th century followers in order to obtain riches and women - a cl***ic example of what cult leaders do!

jdjhere
03-14-2012, 01:02 PM
TheWay stated in Post #78" I have some nice stone war club heads and stone throwing slings, used by the Lamanites, Lots of pottery and textiles from the Nephites ..."

Ok, all side stepping, changing the subject, asking another question, ignoring and every other excuse anyone could ever possibly come up with, please answer the following question, TheWay:

What is your undeniable EVIDENCE that these items belonged to a group of people called the Lamanites and Nephites?

Wikipedia: According to the Book of Mormon, a religious text of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, a Nephite is a member of one of the four main groups of settlers of the ancient Americas. The other early settlers described in the Book of Mormon include the Lamanites, Jaredites and Mulekites. Some LDS scholars believe that the forebears of the Nephites settled somewhere in present-day Central America after departing Jerusalem. However, both the Smithsonian Ins***ution and the National Geographic Society have issued statements that they have seen no evidence to support these claims in the Book of Mormon.

It has been a week, TheWay. Are you going to give us that evidence or are you just making claims you can not back up? Thanks.

Apologette
03-14-2012, 01:19 PM
TheWay stated in Post #78" I have some nice stone war club heads and stone throwing slings, used by the Lamanites, Lots of pottery and textiles from the Nephites ..."

Ok, all side stepping, changing the subject, asking another question, ignoring and every other excuse anyone could ever possibly come up with, please answer the following question, TheWay:

What is your undeniable EVIDENCE that these items belonged to a group of people called the Lamanites and Nephites?

Wikipedia: According to the Book of Mormon, a religious text of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, a Nephite is a member of one of the four main groups of settlers of the ancient Americas. The other early settlers described in the Book of Mormon include the Lamanites, Jaredites and Mulekites. Some LDS scholars believe that the forebears of the Nephites settled somewhere in present-day Central America after departing Jerusalem. However, both the Smithsonian Ins***ution and the National Geographic Society have issued statements that they have seen no evidence to support these claims in the Book of Mormon.

It has been a week, TheWay. Are you going to give us that evidence or are you just making claims you can not back up? Thanks.

I guarantee that what (not) "The way" has are indigenous Indian artifacts, and have nothing to do with BoM Hebrews from Jersusalem who settled in the New World. Most Moromons simply refer to Indians as Lamanites due to their belief that Lamanites married the indigenous peoples. Of course, it has no validity to claim these artifacts are Lamanite, unless of course they have been examined by a non-biased (not Mormon) archaeological and anthropological team and declared to be authentic Lamanite artifacts. And of course, they haven't been, otherwise we would have seen such claims smeared all over the internet.

alanmolstad
08-02-2012, 06:36 AM
It is pathetic I provide a reference for ancient Jews, you provide NOTHING valid for Nephites,
have the Mormons ever come forth with findings that they claim are proof of the nephites?

I mean they crank out students from their higher schools, has one of these students managed to find some convincing proof of these people yet?

RealFakeHair
08-02-2012, 09:07 AM
Hey Marvin are you ever going to give us any proof for the Nephites living in the America?

I will hold my breath waiting

alanmolstad
02-07-2014, 07:51 AM
This is the very same topic that someone was reading on the other day that got me started thinking about what would go into making the golden Plates...

The idea i had was that given the type of people that Mormons are, would it be all that hard to actually create some golden plates that could be accepted ?

i think that's a good question.
Now 1st off i admit that for any guy to actually try to make the golden plates he will need to have some free spending money on hand, as even the term "golden plates' tells us that at some point in this you are going to need some gold.

and gold is not cheap.

But if we had a supply and the expertise to build a set of Mormon golden plates, what else would be necessary in-order to get all Mormons to believe that were real?


On my currently-running topic, Im going over the idea of what would be needed to make golden plates accepted....

RealFakeHair
02-07-2014, 09:03 AM
What I don't understand is why did the mormon god take back the golden mormon bible? If it were truely a history of the mormon jews crossing the seas to find a new promise land, and their invisible settlements then we should (All) be able to view this exciting peice of Joseph Smith jr. Imaginary mind.

alanmolstad
02-07-2014, 09:23 AM
the way i see it.....sooner or later any set of new golden Plates that you or I were to make, would also have to soon disappear.
There is only so long you can maintain a cover story.

And,.....by not having the plates around you switch from "defending" them to "promoting" their myth....

Defending something like a set of golden Plates is tricky because no matter how good a set you have constructed there is always the chance you slipped-up and you will get caught.

However once the Golden Plates are out of everyone's reach forever, then their legitimacy cant be attacked anymore.

all your attackers are suddenly left with only their weak-looking "opinions" and you can stop worrying about the truth getting out.

What you can then do is simply concern yourself now with promoting the myth about the plates...
And that only takes one thing...

A good story.

RealFakeHair
02-07-2014, 09:26 AM
the way i see it.....sooner or later any set of new golden Plates that you or I were to make, would also have to soon disappear.
There is only so long you can maintain a cover story.

And,.....by not having the plates around you switch from "defending" them to "promoting" their myth....

Defending something like a set of golden Plates is tricky because no matter how good a set you have constructed there is always the chance you slipped-up and you will get caught.

However once the Golden Plates are out of everyone's reach forever, then their legitimacy cant be attacked anymore.

all your attackers are suddenly left with only their weak-looking "opinions" and you can stop worrying about the truth getting out.

What you can then do is simply concern yourself now with promoting the myth about the plates...
And that only takes one thing...

A good story.

I guess because I grew up in and around religious con-men I was immediately turned off by the LDSinc. Claims of the Golden Plates story.

alanmolstad
02-27-2014, 07:19 AM
The idea I have been kicking around for a while is the idea of the 'sealed" Golden plates...

The concept i had was that there would come out a story that some guy had "found" or been "given" a set of Mormon golden plates that no one has seen before, but that have some type of history within the story of Joe Smith.

Some type of super-secret plates that a person could make that would be just what a lot of Mormons would think they should look like...
And made out of a material that everyone expects them to be made out of.

I was thinking about how to go about fooling all the Mormons in such a manner as they actually fool themselves and do all the work?

James Banta
02-27-2014, 09:02 AM
The idea I have been kicking around for a while is the idea of the 'sealed" Golden plates...

The concept i had was that there would come out a story that some guy had "found" or been "given" a set of Mormon golden plates that no one has seen before, but that have some type of history within the story of Joe Smith.

Some type of super-secret plates that a person could make that would be just what a lot of Mormons would think they should look like...
And made out of a material that everyone expects them to be made out of.

I was thinking about how to go about fooling all the Mormons in such a manner as they actually fool themselves and do all the work?

A man by the name of Christopher Nemelka has published the sealed portion of the Book or Mormon and has also translated the 116 pages of missing m****cript Smith translated from the plates of Lehi and gave to Marti Harris for inspection. Mr. Nemelka teaches that John the Beloved and the Three Nephites use him to present their message to the World. He says that Joseph Smith, himself, gave Christopher the Gold Plates so that he could translate the sealed portion of the Book of Mormon. He believes that in 1987 he was called, in the same manner as Joseph Smith, to share a message with the world.

So why is it that the LDS call this man a false teacher, a false prophet? Doesn't his message have as much authority as the message Smith first brought to the world? The seal portion of the BofM is now available, translated by a man who has just as much authority to bring the seal portion to the world as Smith had to bring the unsealed portion i the first place.. How many LDS had even bothered to read this new "scripture"? How many LDS even know it exists? It can be read at http://www.marvelousworkandawonder.com/tsp/read_tsp.htm.. IHS jim

alanmolstad
02-27-2014, 09:06 AM
we should come out with the super-super sealed plates.

James Banta
02-27-2014, 12:21 PM
we should come out with the super-super sealed plates.

I guess you could but like Smith Nemelka had to surrender the plates back to the "angel" that delivered them to him.. IHS jim

Apologette
02-27-2014, 06:28 PM
Many in the anti-Mormon community have criticized the fact that the plates upon which the Book of Mormon were taken (translated), and that they were “taken”, is very convenient” for the Mormons, because they are not available for comparison, review, inspection, etc. But in reality it is not ‘very inconvenient” at all, but “very necessary”. I have given much thought to what arguments would be made if we did have the “plates”. Before listing any it is only (FAIR©) to note that we do not have (no one has) the “Stone Tablets” upon which were engraved by the “Hand of God” the Ten Commandments. Because the OT was p***ed down via “Oral Tradition” we do not have (no one has) any original m****cripts. Beyond the OT, there are missing m****cripts of the NT as well. Also the “famous” or “infamous” missing books…


Note: Not all missing to all versions, but missing, or a more descriptive term may be “excluded”. Many scriptural books are alleged too have been written centuries after the advent of Christ. But returning to the main theme, what if we had the “plates of gold or br***”?

This is my list; maybe some of you could add? In addition I would also like a list from those representing other organizations or interests to list what they would need to be satisfied. Including for example IRR©, President Rob Bowman or others.

My list…

No one can read this language it is made up!

They have them but will not everyone see them…this already happens with many religious artifacts that are in the possession of others; made by those not allowed to see them.

They have not been carbon dated.

They have been carbon dated and scientists cannot agree.

Mormons don’t have Scholars or Scientists, BYU only teaches Pseudoscience. This one may have merit?

I don’t care what anyone says; I have not seen them!

OK the comments made there on the plates are correct according to the inscription, but there is no evidence beyond written that Nephites and Laminites ever existed.

The plates are plagiarized from the Bible.

“A Bible, a Bible, we have got a Bible and there can be no other Bible”.
There theology does not match orthodoxy and therefore it is false.

It does no agree with our “Creeds”!

They store them behind protective gl***, how do we know what it is? BTW, the Church is a con has the money to produce something and do this!

No God would require obedience for salvation.

I will add others as additional posts…

My list for why they are not available…”all of the above”.

Be serious and have fun.

I think close examination of the "plates" would prove they were forged from tin, probably by Pratt or Cowdery - both knew blacksmithing. I doubt there were any etchings on them, but maybe they'd still be covered by a cloth. When a Harvard scientist got a look at them, and told the world they were worthless tin plates, there would be a m*** exodus from the Mormon cult. Jeff would probably remain, shouting something about "Calvin will never get me." But, in the end, there are no plates, and Smith was a liar!

James Banta
02-27-2014, 06:51 PM
I think close examination of the "plates" would prove they were forged from tin, probably by Pratt or Cowdery - both knew blacksmithing. I doubt there were any etchings on them, but maybe they'd still be covered by a cloth. When a Harvard scientist got a look at them, and told the world they were worthless tin plates, there would be a m*** exodus from the Mormon cult. Jeff would probably remain, shouting something about "Calvin will never get me." But, in the end, there are no plates, and Smith was a liar!

God never hide his word before Smith came along.. He spoke directly to the Children of Israel as He spoke His Law to them..

Deut 4:11-13
And ye came near and stood under the mountain; and the mountain burned with fire unto the midst of heaven, with darkness, clouds, and thick darkness.
And the Lord spake unto you out of the midst of the fire: ye heard the voice of the words, but saw no similitude; only ye heard a voice.
And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone.

They also SAW the tablets on which God by His own hand wrote the Law. And the Gold plates had to be hidden? WHY? IHS jim