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Apologette
06-08-2012, 10:13 AM
How do Mormons have the audacity to hold up Joseph Smith as a great prophet, a bragger who said he did a greater *** than Jesus? How do Mormons have the audacity to tell converts half the story? Have the mishies every quoted this member of the "Brethren," who according to Mormon theories had the power to speak on God's behalf:

Words of Jedediah M. Grant, member of the first Presidency under Young, speaking in the Tabernacle:

“When the family organization was revealed from heaven—the PATRIARCHAL ORDER of God, and JOSEPH began, ON THE RIGHT AND ON THE LEFT, TO ADD TO HIS FAMILY, what a quaking there was in Israel. Says one brother to another, 'Joseph says all covenants are DONE AWAY, and NONE ARE BINDING BUT THE NEW COVENANTS; now suppose JOSEPH should come and say HE WANTED YOUR WIFE, what you say to that?' 'I would tell him to go to hell.' This was the spirit of many in the early days of this Church....”

“What would a man of God say, who felt aright, when JOSEPH ASKED him for his money? He would say, 'Yes, and I wish I had more to help to build up the kingdom of God.' Or if HE CAME AND SAID, 'I WANT YOUR WIFE?' O YES,' he would say, 'HERE SHE IS, THERE ARE PLENTY MORE.'... Did the PROPHET JOSEPH WANT EVERY MAN'S WIFE HE ASKED FOR? He did not,... If such a man of God should come to me and say, 'I want your gold and silver, OR YOUR WIVES,' I should say,' HERE THEY ARE, I WISH I HAD MORE TO GIVE YOU, TAKE ALL I HAVE GOT.'“

SOURCE: Journal of Discourses, Vol. 2, pp. 13-14)

Tell us Mormon males, would you have handed over your wife to the great prophet, seer and revelator as early Mormons were asked to do? And if you didn't like it, would you lump it?

Snow Patrol
06-08-2012, 10:45 AM
How do Mormons have the audacity to hold up Joseph Smith as a great prophet, a bragger who said he did a greater *** than Jesus? How do Mormons have the audacity to tell converts half the story?


Oopps, couldn't get past the first two sentences before your biases caught up to you. I wonder if you know what you even did wrong here?

jdjhere
06-08-2012, 10:53 AM
No Sidestepping, changing the subject, derailing, making the debate about the person, etc...

Tell us Mormon males, would you have handed over your wife to the great prophet, seer and revelator as early Mormons were asked to do? And if you didn't like it, would you lump it?

How about just a good old fashioned answer? I WOULD NOT! There... I answered it STRAIGHT ON. LDS??

Snow Patrol
06-08-2012, 10:56 AM
Jdjhere, if Apologette were ever able to JUST ask questions without the many personal insults then I would more inclined to answer those questions.

Do you see the error in the first two sentences?

jdjhere
06-08-2012, 10:57 AM
SnowPatrol: Please, No Sidestepping, changing the subject, derailing, making the debate about the person, etc...

How do Mormons have the audacity to hold up Joseph Smith as a great prophet, a bragger who said he did a greater *** than Jesus? How do Mormons have the audacity to tell converts half the story?

(sigh) OK Snow... explain, then answer the question.

Snow Patrol
06-08-2012, 10:59 AM
I'm not changing the subject. It was in her initial post, thus fair game.

Do you see the error she made? It has to do with the insult that she places on the LDS.

jdjhere
06-08-2012, 11:01 AM
Ok. Explain it and then answer the question.

Snow Patrol
06-08-2012, 11:07 AM
Ok. Explain it and then answer the question.

Apologette said:
"How do Mormons have the audacity to hold up Joseph Smith as a great prophet, a bragger who said he did a greater *** than Jesus? How do Mormons have the audacity to tell converts half the story?"


In the second sentence she asks "how do Mormons have the audacity to tell the converts half the story?" Yet, she only gives half the story on her claim that Joseph said he did a greater *** than Jesus. Leaving it the way she said it is very misleading. This is a very common problem with many of the posts presented by her. Why bother reading her posts further when the first two sentences show her clear bias.

Snow Patrol
06-08-2012, 11:12 AM
Ok. Explain it and then answer the question.

I will answer the question AFTER you take the time to read the whole talk given by Pres. Grant. A lot of clarifying information is given that was conveniently left out of the quote given.

RealFakeHair
06-08-2012, 11:14 AM
Apologette said:
"How do Mormons have the audacity to hold up Joseph Smith as a great prophet, a bragger who said he did a greater *** than Jesus? How do Mormons have the audacity to tell converts half the story?"


In the second sentence she asks "how do Mormons have the audacity to tell the converts half the story?" Yet, she only gives half the story on her claim that Joseph said he did a greater *** than Jesus. Leaving it the way she said it is very misleading. This is a very common problem with many of the posts presented by her. Why bother reading her posts further when the first two sentences show her clear bias.

It's about the character of Joseph Smith jr. You folks never really deal with it.
Take Joseph Smith jr name out of his life history and take the fact he created the LDS Church and do an honest *** of judging the character of this man and ask yourself, was this man anything other than a ****?

Snow Patrol
06-08-2012, 11:33 AM
Trust me I do get it. I've done a lot of research, both positive and negative, and I believe he tried very hard to do what he thought was right. He was in no way perfect. But how I differ from most critics of Joseph Smith is that I do not overlook all of the good things he did. I've NEVER heard a "hyper critic" ever mention the positive things he did. So, your criticims of me and other LDS should be mirrored back to the critics of Joseph Smith and have them address the many positive things he did.

TrueBlue?
06-08-2012, 11:53 AM
How do Mormons have the audacity to hold up Joseph Smith as a great prophet, a bragger who said he did a greater *** than Jesus? How do Mormons have the audacity to tell converts half the story? Have the mishies every quoted this member of the "Brethren," who according to Mormon theories had the power to speak on God's behalf:

Words of Jedediah M. Grant, member of the first Presidency under Young, speaking in the Tabernacle:

“When the family organization was revealed from heaven—the PATRIARCHAL ORDER of God, and JOSEPH began, ON THE RIGHT AND ON THE LEFT, TO ADD TO HIS FAMILY, what a quaking there was in Israel. Says one brother to another, 'Joseph says all covenants are DONE AWAY, and NONE ARE BINDING BUT THE NEW COVENANTS; now suppose JOSEPH should come and say HE WANTED YOUR WIFE, what you say to that?' 'I would tell him to go to hell.' This was the spirit of many in the early days of this Church....”

“What would a man of God say, who felt aright, when JOSEPH ASKED him for his money? He would say, 'Yes, and I wish I had more to help to build up the kingdom of God.' Or if HE CAME AND SAID, 'I WANT YOUR WIFE?' O YES,' he would say, 'HERE SHE IS, THERE ARE PLENTY MORE.'... Did the PROPHET JOSEPH WANT EVERY MAN'S WIFE HE ASKED FOR? He did not,... If such a man of God should come to me and say, 'I want your gold and silver, OR YOUR WIVES,' I should say,' HERE THEY ARE, I WISH I HAD MORE TO GIVE YOU, TAKE ALL I HAVE GOT.'“

SOURCE: Journal of Discourses, Vol. 2, pp. 13-14)

Tell us Mormon males, would you have handed over your wife to the great prophet, seer and revelator as early Mormons were asked to do? And if you didn't like it, would you lump it?

...And now for the rest of the story.

I would ask you if Jehovah has not in all ages tried His people by the power of Lucifer and his ***ociates; and on the other hand, has He not tried them and proved them by His Prophets? Did the Lord actually want Abraham to kill Isaac? Did the Prophet Joseph want every man's wife he asked for? He did not, but in that thing was the grand thread of the Priesthood developed. The grand object in view was to try the people of God, to see what was in them. If such a man of God should come to me and say, "I want your gold and silver, or your wives," I should say, "Here they are, I wish I had more to give you, take all I have got." A man who has got the Spirit of God, and the light of eternity in him, has no trouble about such matters.

SOURCE: Journal of Discourses, Vol. 2, pp. 14)

It is clear that He wasn't saying that this would ever happen, especially when he compared it to Abraham and Isaac another absurd and crazy act if it had been carried out. He was stressing the importance of being subject to the Government of God, and how that is being subject to God.

RealFakeHair
06-08-2012, 12:16 PM
Trust me I do get it. I've done a lot of research, both positive and negative, and I believe he tried very hard to do what he thought was right. He was in no way perfect. But how I differ from most critics of Joseph Smith is that I do not overlook all of the good things he did. I've NEVER heard a "hyper critic" ever mention the positive things he did. So, your criticims of me and other LDS should be mirrored back to the critics of Joseph Smith and have them address the many positive things he did.

Hilter, Stalin, Obama and my third grade teach did too.
Joseph Smith jr. was what they called a juggler in the 1800s.
A confidence man will alway do some good to gang the confidence of his target, person or people he wished to do his bidding with.
Did Joseph Smith jr do good, just for goodness sake? I am sure at times he did, but his overall work was for his on ego and profit.
The only fault of Joseph Smith jr was for him to start believing his own press.

Snow Patrol
06-08-2012, 12:27 PM
You are welcome to your opinion. But just know that your previous comment "You folks never really deal with it." is inaccurate.

RealFakeHair
06-08-2012, 12:37 PM
You are welcome to your opinion. But just know that your previous comment "You folks never really deal with it." is inaccurate.

Inaccurate: definition, mistaken or incorrect.
With all we know about Joseph Smith jr. Was it inaccurate for the LDS headquarters to keep from it's members the many wives Joseph Smith jr had?
Was it inaccurate for the LDS headquarters to keep from it's members the 1826 Trial of Joseph Smith jr.?

jdjhere
06-08-2012, 01:07 PM
OK SnowPatrol, I went to the online Doctrines and Covenants and read everything that Jedediah M. Grant said in there that I could find. He REALLY preached alot on the Priesthood and if you were going to be saved to trust the only church that had the Priesthood and that type of thing. So, now, you promised to answer the question- I do not know if you are male, but if you WERE, and Joseph Smith asked you to give him your wife, would you DO it, just say there are plenty more where that one came from and just "lump" it if you did not want to do it?

Snow Patrol
06-08-2012, 01:10 PM
Inaccurate: definition, mistaken or incorrect.
With all we know about Joseph Smith jr. Was it inaccurate for the LDS headquarters to keep from it's members the many wives Joseph Smith jr had?
Was it inaccurate for the LDS headquarters to keep from it's members the 1826 Trial of Joseph Smith jr.?

This information has been available to anyone seeking it. I don't know that the Church has ever denied that he might have taken on additional wives especially since polygamy was such a huge part of the early Church. As for the trial, I think it is a fairly insignificant thing. Joseph went through a lot of trials based on fake information. I just don't know that the Church has ever withheld information on this as well. The information is available for those who have interest in it.

Snow Patrol
06-08-2012, 01:13 PM
If I truly believe that, which ever Prophet asked that of me, they are truly a Prophet of God and I seek God's confirmation on this and get it, then yes I would submit and offer anything else that I might have.

jdjhere
06-08-2012, 01:16 PM
Ok...thanks for answering honestly.

jdjhere
06-08-2012, 01:18 PM
Can I ask you one more question, SnowPatrol?

RealFakeHair
06-08-2012, 01:18 PM
OK SnowPatrol, I went to the online Doctrines and Covenants and read everything that Jedediah M. Grant said in there that I could find. He REALLY preached alot on the Priesthood and if you were going to be saved to trust the only church that had the Priesthood and that type of thing. So, now, you promised to answer the question- I do not know if you are male, but if you WERE, and Joseph Smith asked you to give him your wife, would you DO it, just say there are plenty more where that one came from and just "lump" it if you did not want to do it?

IMHO most TBMs don't want to go there. It's not easy believing in such a person as Joseph Smith jr. but the heart of man doesn't want to know the truth of their hopes and dreams of their faith when the founder of their faith is so flawed. Joseph Smith jr, was an evil man if you look at the totality of the man. The Maddow Mountain Messenger would not have happened if not for the imagainary mind of Joseph Smith jr.
I am sure Joseph Smith jr had no idea of his actions when he first thought of the idea to sell a book ***led The Book of Mormon. I believe he was just out for a quick buck, but as things go sometimes the devil gets his due.

jdjhere
06-08-2012, 01:24 PM
Well, I can understand that, RealFakeHair. I appreciate SnowPatrol being honest and I am ***uming SnowPatrol is a woman. Another issue here that I have with this whole thing is that Joseph Smith also took married women as wives WITHOUT that wifes current husband's consent. I guess they just had to "lump it" too. I wonder what would have happened if another LDS man would have taken Emma Smith as HIS wife without Joseph knowing? Interesting thought.

jdjhere
06-08-2012, 01:38 PM
Parley Pratt followed in Joseph Smiths footsteps and was murdered (from WikiPedia):

While returning from a horseback missionary trip to the southern United States in 1857, Pratt was being tracked by Hector McLean. McLean was the legal husband of one of Pratt's plural wives, Eleanor McLean. Pratt had met Eleanor McLean in San Francisco, California, where Pratt was presiding over a church mission. In San Francisco, Eleanor had joined the LDS Church and had also had her oldest sons baptized. Hector rejected Mormonism and opposed his wife's membership in the church. The dispute over the church led to the collapse of the marriage. Fearing that Eleanor would abscond to Utah Territory with their children, Hector sent his sons and his daughter to New Orleans to live with their grandparents. Eleanor followed the children to New Orleans, where she lived with them for three months at her parents' house. Eventually, she and the children left for Utah Territory; she arrived in Salt Lake City on September 11, 1855. Eleanor McLean was employed in Pratt's home as a schoolteacher, and on November 14, 1855, she and Pratt underwent a "celestial marriage" sealing ceremony in the Endowment House. She was the twelfth woman to be sealed to Pratt. Though for religious reasons Eleanor considered herself "unmarried", she was not legally divorced from Hector at the time of her "celestial marriage" to Pratt.
Upon learning of his wife's actions, Hector McLean pressed criminal charges, accusing Pratt of ***isting in the kidnapping of his children. Pratt managed to evade him and the legal charges, but was finally arrested in Indian Territory (now Oklahoma) in May 1857. Pratt and Eleanor were charged with theft of the clothing of McLean's children. (The laws of that time did not recognize the kidnapping of children by a parent as a crime.) Tried before Judge John B. Ogden, Pratt was acquitted of the charges because of a lack of evidence. However, shortly after being secretly released, on May 13, 1857, Pratt was shot and stabbed by Hector McLean on a farm northeast of Van Buren, Arkansas. As a result of the attack, Pratt died two and a half hours later from loss of blood. As he was bleeding to death, a farmer asked what he had done to provoke the attack. Pratt responded, "He accused me of taking his wife and children. I did not do it. They were oppressed, and I did for them what I would do for the oppressed any where." Pratt was buried near Alma, Arkansas, despite his personal desire to be buried in Utah.

Some historians view Pratt's death as simply the act of a jealous husband who was deeply angered by a man that had "run off" with his wife. A 2008 Provo Daily Herald newspaper article characterized McLean as a man that had "hunted down" Pratt in retribution for "ruining his marriage". A 2008 Deseret News article described McLean as a man that had "pursued Pratt across Missouri, Oklahoma and Arkansas, angry that his estranged wife, Eleanor, had become Pratt's 12th wife." But many Mormons viewed Pratt's death as a martyrdom, a view first expressed in Pratt's dying words. (But according to LDS church records, his dying words were not recorded until 38 years after his death.) In the present day, Pratt's defenders still characterize the circumstances of Pratt's death as religious martyrdom. For example, a 2007 article in the Deseret Morning News stated that "Pratt was killed near Van Buren, Ark., in May 1857, by a small Arkansas band antagonistic toward his teachings".

Snow Patrol
06-08-2012, 01:41 PM
Go right ahead.

I'm a male.

Snow Patrol
06-08-2012, 01:45 PM
Some historians view Pratt's death as simply the act of a jealous husband who was deeply angered by a man that had "run off" with his wife. A 2008 Provo Daily Herald newspaper article characterized McLean as a man that had "hunted down" Pratt in retribution for "ruining his marriage". A 2008 Deseret News article described McLean as a man that had "pursued Pratt across Missouri, Oklahoma and Arkansas, angry that his estranged wife, Eleanor, had become Pratt's 12th wife." But many Mormons viewed Pratt's death as a martyrdom, a view first expressed in Pratt's dying words. (But according to LDS church records, his dying words were not recorded until 38 years after his death.) In the present day, Pratt's defenders still characterize the circumstances of Pratt's death as religious martyrdom. For example, a 2007 article in the Deseret Morning News stated that "Pratt was killed near Van Buren, Ark., in May 1857, by a small Arkansas band antagonistic toward his teachings".

Interesting that you quote the Deseret News as part of your source. Since the Deseret News is owned by the Church doesn't that take a little of your "sting" about the Church "hiding" stuff? Here it is talking about polygamy and all?

jdjhere
06-08-2012, 01:45 PM
Oh, you are male... ok. I just have one more question- If you had a 14 year old daughter and you found out that a person, (that you KNEW was a prophet of God) had secretly taken your daughter and married her and had had sexual relations with her, would you be angry? And would you still think he was a prophet of God? Thank you for answering.

RealFakeHair
06-08-2012, 01:52 PM
Oh, you are male... ok. I just have one more question- If you had a 14 year old daughter and you found out that a person, (that you KNEW was a prophet of God) had secretly taken your daughter and married her and had had sexual relations with her, would you be angry? And would you still think he was a prophet of God? Thank you for answering.

I wish this wasn't happening even today. I'm sure the spirit of Joseph Smith jr is walking around the walls and villages of many old fashion LDS Warren Jeffs communities. **** them all the HELL!:mad:

jdjhere
06-08-2012, 01:54 PM
SnowPatrol: "Interesting that you quote the Deseret News as part of your source. Since the Deseret News is owned by the Church doesn't that take a little of your "sting" about the Church "hiding" stuff? Here it is talking about polygamy and all?"

I don't know. Newspapers in my opinion just...well...report, no matter who it hurts. That is my experience anyway. Maybe at the time the story was all too provable and they HAD to tell the truth, or maybe at that time Deseret News was owned by someone else, or because it WAS in Utah at that time the Newspaper saw nothing wrong with what Pratt did. How would I know? I simply quoted what was in WikiPedia and THEY quoted the Deseret News, not me. Plus, it was not me that said the LDS church hides stuff.

Snow Patrol
06-08-2012, 01:55 PM
By today's standards, if she is 14 I'd probably would be very upset and would be definitely taking my problem to the Lord. Would I still think he was a Prophet of God? It would depend on God's answer.

RealFakeHair
06-08-2012, 01:57 PM
By today's standards, if she is 14 I'd probably would be very upset and would be definitely taking my problem to the Lord. Would I still think he was a Prophet of God? It would depend on God's answer.

SAD!:mad: Unbelievable:mad:

jdjhere
06-08-2012, 01:59 PM
Ok, well, thank you for answering SnowPatrol so openly and honestly about how you feel about someone you believe to be a prophet of God and what you would do if that person asked.

jdjhere
06-08-2012, 02:02 PM
Just for the record, by today's standards, if she is 14 I'd probably would be very upset and would be definitely taking my problem to the AUTHORITIES. But that is just me, or I might even take McCleans route and be in Jail for murder, I am not sure since I don't have a daughter.

Snow Patrol
06-08-2012, 02:04 PM
Are you as angry with God for choosing a 14ish year old girl to be the mother of Jesus? Who was engaged to be married.

RealFakeHair
06-08-2012, 02:06 PM
Just for the record, by today's standards, if she is 14 I'd probably would be very upset and would be definitely taking my problem to the AUTHORITIES. But that is just me, or I might even take McCleans route and be in Jail for murder, I am not sure since I don't have a daughter.

any so called prophet came to me with his BS, he dead!

Snow Patrol
06-08-2012, 02:10 PM
And let me guess, you would then still consider yourself to be saved?

RealFakeHair
06-08-2012, 02:12 PM
Are you as angry with God for choosing a 14ish year old girl to be the mother of Jesus? Who was engaged to be married.

What happened between the mother of Jesus and the Holy Ghost, you compare to you low life Joseph Smith jr. I'm sorry but I can't even go there!:mad:

Snow Patrol
06-08-2012, 02:15 PM
But you are missing the key point, in both cases it is the belief that God is in control in both cases.

RealFakeHair
06-08-2012, 02:21 PM
But you are missing the key point, in both cases it is the belief that God is in control in both cases.

There is absolutely, no comparison with the mother of Jesus, who was not conceieved by some diry ol man, but by the power of the Holy Ghost!
All I got to say is this, it takes a sick puppy to think these two things are connected!:mad::mad:
Please stop, this is making my weekend start off on the wrong foot!

jdjhere
06-08-2012, 02:49 PM
SnowPatrol said: "And let me guess, you would then still consider yourself to be saved?"

People react out of anger all the time (and besides, I could not commit murder anyway) Crimes of p***ion. I would be VERY angry though, and I DO believe, YES, that if I was truly repentant, was TRULY sorry and asked for forgiveness that, yes, God would forgive me... you DON'T? Moses was a murderer and look how God usen him. Matthew was an IRS guy (it does not get ANY worse than THAT!) :o)

RealFakeHair
06-08-2012, 02:52 PM
SnowPatrol said: "And let me guess, you would then still consider yourself to be saved?"

People react out of anger all the time (and besides, I could not commit murder anyway) Crimes of p***ion. I would be VERY angry though, and I DO believe, YES, that if I was truly repentant, was TRULY sorry and asked for forgiveness that, yes, God would forgive me... you DON'T? Moses was a murderer and look how God usen him. Matthew was an IRS guy (it does not get ANY worse than THAT!) :o)

A murder'er I could forgive, but An I.R.S. agent, NEVER!

jdjhere
06-08-2012, 02:54 PM
And I agree with RealFakeHair that "There is absolutely, no comparison between what Joseph Smith did (multiple times I might add) and with Mary, the mother of Jesus, conceiving by the power of the Holy Spirit. The comparison repulses me and is not worthy of discussion.

TrueBlue?
06-08-2012, 03:39 PM
And I agree with RealFakeHair that "There is absolutely, no comparison between what Joseph Smith did (multiple times I might add) and with Mary, the mother of Jesus, conceiving by the power of the Holy Spirit. The comparison repulses me and is not worthy of discussion.

So you do understand that it was tradition then that 12 - 14 year old girls were given in marriage. Remember she was already betrothed to Joseph.

Second if it was a dynastic marriage yes. I would. The same marriages that Joseph was a part of when it came to another mans wife. They were never consummated.

Billyray
06-08-2012, 03:49 PM
. The same marriages that Joseph was a part of when it came to another mans wife. They were never consummated.

What proof do you have that they were never consummated?

TrueBlue?
06-08-2012, 10:31 PM
What proof do you have that they were never consummated?

What proof do you have they were.

Billyray
06-08-2012, 11:40 PM
What proof do you have they were.

You were the one who made the claim that they were never consummated so the burden of proof rests with you.

TrueBlue?
06-09-2012, 06:52 AM
You were the one who made the claim that they were never consummated so the burden of proof rests with you.

Don't really care much at all how you see it Billy. non LDS want to put this of as some sort of bad thing then prove the error, other wise, find something else to talk about. If you can't find nor willing to prove the error stop bringing it up.

James Banta
06-09-2012, 07:45 AM
Don't really care much at all how you see it Billy. non LDS want to put this of as some sort of bad thing then prove the error, other wise, find something else to talk about. If you can't find nor willing to prove the error stop bringing it up.

We have the testimony from several women that say that at least one of their children was the child of Joseph Smith.. It doesn't matter whether they actually were the offspring of Smith or not but the charge is still there from the women involved that they had a sexual relationship with Joseph Smith.. There are many such confessions from several women.. Most of them dies as members in good standing of the LDS church.. Were these all liars? True they didn't know which seed was the one that grew into their child but to make the claim that their children were fathered by Smith insists that a sexual relationship between then did exist (WivesofJosephSmith.org).. IHS jim

TrueBlue?
06-09-2012, 08:16 AM
We have the testimony from several women that say that at least one of their children was the child of Joseph Smith.. It doesn't matter whether they actually were the offspring of Smith or not but the charge is still there from the women involved that they had a sexual relationship with Joseph Smith.. There are many such confessions from several women.. Most of them dies as members in good standing of the LDS church.. Were these all liars? True they didn't know which seed was the one that grew into their child but to make the claim that their children were fathered by Smith insists that a sexual relationship between then did exist (WivesofJosephSmith.org).. IHS jim

LOL, we don't care that the testimony isn't true, or false, it fits our agenda so we will hold it up and use it anyway. Thank you James. This is golden. I am gong to save this and make it known that critics do not care if testimonies are true, they will use lies to promote there agenda.

Again, back to my statement. bring the proof, or drop it.

Billyray
06-09-2012, 08:23 AM
. The same marriages that Joseph was a part of when it came to another mans wife. They were never consummated.

What proof do you have that they were never consummated?

What proof do you have they were.

You were the one who made the claim that they were never consummated so the burden of proof rests with you.

. . .. If you can't find nor willing to prove the error stop bringing it up.
This is a perfect example of how Mormons use the tactics of shifting the burden of proof.



http://ksuweb.kennesaw.edu/~shagin/logfal-distract-shiftburden.htm

Shifting the Burden of Proof – occurs when speakers do not prove their own claims while forcing others to prove them.
*
A standard rule in argumentation is “he who ***erts must prove,” meaning that the writer bears full responsibility to prove that his or her claims are true.* Writers and speakers, especially when cornered with tough questions, often speak authoritatively, but they sometimes ***ume that their ***ertions are valid and place the onus of proof onto the audience.
*

TrueBlue?
06-09-2012, 08:42 AM
This is a perfect example of how Mormons use the tactics of shifting the burden of proof.

You make the claim that the marriages were wrong. The only way they could be truly wrong is if they were of the traditional order where normal man and wife consummate the marriage. So the burden of proof is on you to prove that they were wrong is some form. Prove they were of the traditional order. Other wise don't p*** them off as if they were. Your implications must be proved.

Billyray
06-09-2012, 09:04 AM
You make the claim that the marriages were wrong.

No I simply read your post where you said that the marriages were not consummated. In fact here is your post where you stated that.


. The same marriages that Joseph was a part of when it came to another mans wife. They were never consummated.

Since you made that claim can you prove it? It you can't then you need to retract it.

RealFakeHair
06-09-2012, 09:12 AM
No I simply read your post where you said that the marriages were not consummated. In fact here is your post where you stated that.



Since you made that claim can you prove it? It you can't then you need to retract it.

Think about it. If Joseph Smith jr. Married all these women and girls and never consummated them it would be like a man buying cars and never driving them. When you buy cars and never drive them they become nothing more than collection items, or trophies. If you think about it, this sound more sick then having sex with them. Just a thought!:mad:

Billyray
06-09-2012, 09:25 AM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fanny_Alger
". . .In January 1838, some months after the Algers had left Kirtland, Oliver Cowdery—one of the Three Witnesses to the authenticity of the Book of Mormon—wrote his brother concerning his indignation at Smith's relationship with Alger. Cowdery said he had discussed with Smith the "dirty, nasty, filthy affair of his and Fanny Alger's...in which I strictly declared that I had never deserted from the truth in the matter, and as I supposed was admitted by himself."[6] As Richard Bushman has noted, Smith "never denied a relationship with Alger, but insisted it was not adulterous. He wanted it on record that he had never confessed to such a sin."[7] The best statement Smith could obtain from Cowdery was an affirmation that Smith had never acknowledged himself to have been guilty of adultery. "That," wrote Bushman, "was all Joseph wanted: an admission that he had not termed the Alger affair adulterous." In April 1838, Mormon leaders meeting as the Far West High Council excommunicated Cowdery, in part because he had "seemed to insinuate" that Smith was guilty of adultery.[8]
At this point, Alger disappeared from the historical record of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, only to have a number of stories about her relationship with Smith arise during the late nineteenth century. All of these second-hand witnesses, Mormon and non-Mormon, agreed that Smith had married Alger as a plural wife.[7] In his compendium of Joseph Smith's plural marriages, Todd Compton discusses this late nineteenth-century evidence and its differing reliability, concluding that Smith's relationship with Alger, though fleeting, was more than a casual sexual affair and that she was "one of Joseph Smith's earliest plural wives."[9]. . ."


You even have Cowdery stating that Joseph had an affair with Fanny Alger. My feeling is that Joseph liked women but knew that he couldn't sleep with other women without getting into trouble with those around him like he did with Cowdery so he came up with polygamy as a legitimate way to sleep with other women and not be guilty of adultery.

James Banta
06-09-2012, 09:50 AM
LOL, we don't care that the testimony isn't true, or false, it fits our agenda so we will hold it up and use it anyway. Thank you James. This is golden. I am gong to save this and make it known that critics do not care if testimonies are true, they will use lies to promote there agenda.

Again, back to my statement. bring the proof, or drop it.

READ WHAT I SAID! I said it doesn't matter if the children they believed to be Smith's were his or not.. Their testimony that they were proves a sexual relationship between them and Smith did exist.. Did a pregnancy have to be the outcome of a sexual encounter? That isn't necessarily the case.. But it MUST have been the case in order for these "honest" women to believe that they had a child by Smith.. If you had read what I said that would have been clear.. Again READ WHAT I SAID you will NOT see there anything about the testimony being true or false.. In fact I seem to have more faith in their honesty than you do.. IHS jim

jdjhere
06-09-2012, 09:54 AM
BillyRay stated: "You even have Cowdery stating that Joseph had an affair with Fanny Alger. My feeling is that Joseph liked women but knew that he couldn't sleep with other women without getting into trouble with those around him like he did with Cowdery so he came up with polygamy as a legitimate way to sleep with other women and not be guilty of adultery."

Bingo, BillyRay. The thought that these marriages were never "consumated" is a pretty silly thing to say, IMO. Positive proof? No, but there is definately evidence:
Statement in 1905 interview with Joseph Smith III, CHL:
Angus Cannon quoting Heber C. Kimball quoting Eliza-

“[Joseph Smith III] said, ‘I am informed that Eliza Snow was a virgin at the time of her death.” I in turn said, ‘Brother Heber C. Kimball, I am informed, asked her the question if she was not a virgin although married to Joseph Smith and afterwards to Brigham Young, when she replied in a private gathering, “I thought you knew Joseph Smith better than that.”

Wilhelm Wyl, Mormon Portraits, Salt Lake City: Tribune Printing and Publishing Co., 1886, 58, 90.

“Emma is currently reported as having had recourse to a vulgar broomstick as an instrument of revenge; and the harsh treatment received at Emma’s hands is said to have destroyed Eliza’s hopes of becoming the mother of a prophet’s son… Sarah M. Cleveland… kept a kind of ***ignation house for the prophet and Eliza R. Snow.”

John Boice and Mary Ann (Barzee), Boice "Record," [patriarchal blessing book], pp 178-79, CHL, MS 8883.

“She [Aida] says that once when she was at her work that Emma went up stairs and pulled Eliza R. Snow down stairs by the hair of her head as she was staying there.”

Leroi C. Snow, “Notes,” in possession of Cynthia Snow Banner:

“Charles C. Rich called at the Mansion House, Nauvoo, to go with the Prophet on some appointment they had together. As he waited in the main lobby or parlor, he saw the Prophet and Emma come out of a room upstairs and walk together toward the stairway which apparently came down center. Almost at the same time, a door opposite opened and dainty, little, dark-haired Eliza R. Snow (she was ‘heavy with child’) came out and walked toward the center stairway. When Joseph saw her, he turned and kissed Eliza, and then came on down stairs toward Brother Rich. Just as he reached the bottom step, there was a commotion on the stairway, and both Joseph and Brother Rich turned quickly to see Eliza come tumbling down the stairs. Emma had pushed her, in a fit of rage and jealousy; she stood at the top of the stairs, glowering, her countenance a picture of hell. Joseph quickly picked up the little lad, and with her in his arms, he turned and looked up at Emma, who then burst into tears and ran to her room. Joseph carried the hurt and bruised Eliza up the stairs and to her room. ‘Her hip was injured and that is why she always afterward favored that leg,’ said Charles C. Rich. ‘She lost the unborn babe.’”

James Banta
06-09-2012, 10:04 AM
...And now for the rest of the story.

I would ask you if Jehovah has not in all ages tried His people by the power of Lucifer and his ***ociates; and on the other hand, has He not tried them and proved them by His Prophets? Did the Lord actually want Abraham to kill Isaac? Did the Prophet Joseph want every man's wife he asked for? He did not, but in that thing was the grand thread of the Priesthood developed. The grand object in view was to try the people of God, to see what was in them. If such a man of God should come to me and say, "I want your gold and silver, or your wives," I should say, "Here they are, I wish I had more to give you, take all I have got." A man who has got the Spirit of God, and the light of eternity in him, has no trouble about such matters.

SOURCE: Journal of Discourses, Vol. 2, pp. 14)

It is clear that He wasn't saying that this would ever happen, especially when he compared it to Abraham and Isaac another absurd and crazy act if it had been carried out. He was stressing the importance of being subject to the Government of God, and how that is being subject to God.

And yet when it Smith actually did desire a man's wife he took her while her husband lived. In the personal history of ZINA HUNTINGTON she tells of a marriage to Smith while she still lived with her husband Henry B. Jacobs. It is clear from this record that Smith had no problem at all taking other men's wives for himself. (WivesofJosephSmith.org).. God has already spoken on this kind of behavior.. He calls it adultery. God never commands SIN!!! IHS jim

TrueBlue?
06-09-2012, 10:22 PM
Think about it. If Joseph Smith jr. Married all these women and girls and never consummated them it would be like a man buying cars and never driving them. When you buy cars and never drive them they become nothing more than collection items, or trophies. If you think about it, this sound more sick then having sex with them. Just a thought!:mad:

There you go again RFH. Injecting sex into a topic. But it's us Mormons who keep bringing up sex.

Joseph had several, children with Emma. Quite the fertile man I would say, yet all these women that he married and consummated these marriages with, no children.:rolleyes:

Evidence speaks against the claims.

Billyray
06-09-2012, 10:58 PM
Evidence speaks against the claims.

Do you believe Cowdery when he spoke about the Fanny Alger affair?

alanmolstad
08-18-2014, 05:07 AM
sooner or later one of the marks of a CULT is that the leadership has to bring "Mr Zipper" into the theology.....

Phoenix
08-18-2014, 12:17 PM
sooner or later one of the marks of a CULT is that the leadership has to bring "Mr Zipper" into the theology.....

Seems like you are the one who is bringing it into stuff, on a far more frequent basis than any church I know of brings it into things.

alanmolstad
08-18-2014, 01:05 PM
sex with young girls....

This is the most important thing we know about Joe Smith and Mormonism......

This is the one thing I always make sure is always listed at the top of why we know Smith was a conman.......

yes, he was into money digging, and yes he ripped people off, and so its just par for the course that he dreamed on the "Golden Tablets" con.

But the real dirty-dog thing about Smith is how he twisted people's faith in him into a means to score with new younger skirts.

Phoenix
08-18-2014, 06:57 PM
sex with young girls....

This is the most important thing we know about Joe Smith and Mormonism......

This is the one thing I always make sure is always listed at the top of why we know Smith was a conman.......

yes, he was into money digging, and yes he ripped people off, and so its just par for the course that he dreamed on the "Golden Tablets" con.

But the real dirty-dog thing about Smith is how he twisted people's faith in him into a means to score with new younger skirts.
Seems as if the person who is obsessed with the idea, is you.