The Regeneration through water baptism

[dberrie2000]

***us3:5--"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;"


There has been some discussion between the relationship between water baptism and salvation. Could water baptism be connected to "regeneration" and not be salvational?


http://www.truthmagazine.com/archives/volume34/GOT034331.html


What is the "washing of regeneration" by which he saved us? We have collected the comments of various outstanding Bible scholars from a diversity of religious groups. These men often differ on some of the details in this p***age, but they all agree as to what the "washing of regeneration" is. We do not cite them as our authority, but ask that you weigh their arguments carefully.

John Wesley: "Sanctification, expressed by the laver of regeneration (that is, baptism, the thing signified, as well as the outward sign), and the renewal of the Holy Ghost, which purifies the soul, as water cleanses the body, and renews it in the whole image of God" (One Volume New Testament Commentary, Wesley, Clarke, Henry, et. al.).


Cambridge Greek Testament (J.H. Bernard): "That the 'washing of regeneration' is the Water of Baptism is undoubted; see Eph. 5:26 . . . It is the instrument (dia) of salvation (cp. 1 Pet. 3:21 . . . ), the means, that is, through which we are placed in a 'state of salvation,' in union with the mystical Body of Christ; cp. Gal. 3:27. . ."

The New Bible Commentary (A.M. Stibbs): "In status this salvation is made ours through the outward seal of baptism; in vital experience it comes through the inner quickening by the Spirit."

The Pulpit Commentary (A.C. Hervey): "Here we have the means through or by which God's mercy saves us . . . (regeneration) therefore, very fitly describes the new birth in holy baptism, when the believer is put into possession of a new spiritual life, a new nature, and a new inheritance of glory. And the laver of baptism is called 'laver of regeneration,' because it is the ordained means by or through which regeneration is obtained."

William Hendriksen: "It is clear from such p***ages as John 3:3,5 and especially Ephesians 5:26 (cf. Heb. 10:22) that this 'washing of regeneration and renewing' stand in some relation to the rite of baptism. Undoubtedly, also here in ***us 3:5 there is an implied reference to this sacrament" (New Testament Commentary).

Albert Barnes: "The word (washing) itself would naturally be understood as referring to baptism (comp. Notes on Acts 22:16), which was regarded as the emblem of washing away sins, or of cleansing from them" (Barnes' Notes on the New Testament).

Henry Alford: "Observe, there is here no figure: the words are literal: Baptism is taken as in all its completion, the outward visible sign accompanied by the inward spiritual grace; and as thus complete, it not only represents, but is the new birth." At Hebrews 10:22, Alford says the clause having our body washed with pure water "refers directly to Christian baptism" and cites washing of water (Eph. 5:26) and washing of regeneration (***. 3:5) as "****ogous expressions" (The Greek New Testament).

James Macknight: "Through the bath of regeneration: through baptism; called 'the bath of regeneration,' not because any change in the nature of the baptized person is produced by baptism, but because it is an emblem of the purification of his soul from sin. . . " (Apostolical Epistles).

G.R. Beasley-Murray: Beasley-Murray said in 1962 "of all the commentators who have written on these Epistles [1 Timothy, 2 Timothy, ***us], I can find but one who denies" that this refers to baptism. He says, "All things considered, it requires a real hardiness of spirit to refuse the weight of this evidence. . . " (Baptism, pp. 209, 210). I have come across one additional more recent commentator who denies that baptism is under consideration.

What is the "washing of regeneration" by which he saved us? These commentators all agree and most of them cite biblical evidence to back up their position. The "washing of regeneration" in ***us 3:5 is baptism. In the chart below we have replaced the phrase "washing of regeneration" with the word baptism. This is proper since this is the meaning of the phrase.



Where does this leave faith alone theology? They carefully eliminate water baptism from anything salvational. But yet, if the testimonies of Christ, the Early Church Fathers, and the scholars are true--then it is the quite attached to regeneration.

[Billyray]

***us3:5--"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;"


There has been some discussion between the relationship between water baptism and salvation. Could water baptism be connected to "regeneration" and not be salvational?


Do you think that this is referring to water baptism?

[dberrie2000]

dberrie---***us3:5--"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;"


There has been some discussion between the relationship between water baptism and salvation. Could water baptism be connected to "regeneration" and not be salvational?


http://www.truthmagazine.com/archive...GOT034331.html


What is the "washing of regeneration" by which he saved us? We have collected the comments of various outstanding Bible scholars from a diversity of religious groups. These men often differ on some of the details in this p***age, but they all agree as to what the "washing of regeneration" is. We do not cite them as our authority, but ask that you weigh their arguments carefully.

John Wesley: "Sanctification, expressed by the laver of regeneration (that is, baptism, the thing signified, as well as the outward sign), and the renewal of the Holy Ghost, which purifies the soul, as water cleanses the body, and renews it in the whole image of God" (One Volume New Testament Commentary, Wesley, Clarke, Henry, et. al.).


Cambridge Greek Testament (J.H. Bernard): "That the 'washing of regeneration' is the Water of Baptism is undoubted; see Eph. 5:26 . . . It is the instrument (dia) of salvation (cp. 1 Pet. 3:21 . . . ), the means, that is, through which we are placed in a 'state of salvation,' in union with the mystical Body of Christ; cp. Gal. 3:27. . ."

The New Bible Commentary (A.M. Stibbs): "In status this salvation is made ours through the outward seal of baptism; in vital experience it comes through the inner quickening by the Spirit."

The Pulpit Commentary (A.C. Hervey): "Here we have the means through or by which God's mercy saves us . . . (regeneration) therefore, very fitly describes the new birth in holy baptism, when the believer is put into possession of a new spiritual life, a new nature, and a new inheritance of glory. And the laver of baptism is called 'laver of regeneration,' because it is the ordained means by or through which regeneration is obtained."

William Hendriksen: "It is clear from such p***ages as John 3:3,5 and especially Ephesians 5:26 (cf. Heb. 10:22) that this 'washing of regeneration and renewing' stand in some relation to the rite of baptism. Undoubtedly, also here in ***us 3:5 there is an implied reference to this sacrament" (New Testament Commentary).

Albert Barnes: "The word (washing) itself would naturally be understood as referring to baptism (comp. Notes on Acts 22:16), which was regarded as the emblem of washing away sins, or of cleansing from them" (Barnes' Notes on the New Testament).

Henry Alford: "Observe, there is here no figure: the words are literal: Baptism is taken as in all its completion, the outward visible sign accompanied by the inward spiritual grace; and as thus complete, it not only represents, but is the new birth." At Hebrews 10:22, Alford says the clause having our body washed with pure water "refers directly to Christian baptism" and cites washing of water (Eph. 5:26) and washing of regeneration (***. 3:5) as "****ogous expressions" (The Greek New Testament).

James Macknight: "Through the bath of regeneration: through baptism; called 'the bath of regeneration,' not because any change in the nature of the baptized person is produced by baptism, but because it is an emblem of the purification of his soul from sin. . . " (Apostolical Epistles).

G.R. Beasley-Murray: Beasley-Murray said in 1962 "of all the commentators who have written on these Epistles [1 Timothy, 2 Timothy, ***us], I can find but one who denies" that this refers to baptism. He says, "All things considered, it requires a real hardiness of spirit to refuse the weight of this evidence. . . " (Baptism, pp. 209, 210). I have come across one additional more recent commentator who denies that baptism is under consideration.

What is the "washing of regeneration" by which he saved us? These commentators all agree and most of them cite biblical evidence to back up their position. The "washing of regeneration" in ***us 3:5 is baptism. In the chart below we have replaced the phrase "washing of regeneration" with the word baptism. This is proper since this is the meaning of the phrase.



Where does this leave faith alone theology? They carefully eliminate water baptism from anything salvational. But yet, if the testimonies of Christ, the Early Church Fathers, and the scholars are true--then it is the quite attached to regeneration.






Do you think that this is referring to water baptism?

Yep. And if you read the above commentaries--it is a powerful testimony. As the conclusion stated: "These commentators all agree and most of them cite biblical evidence to back up their position. The "washing of regeneration" in ***us 3:5 is baptism. "

[Billyray]

Yep. And if you read the above commentaries--it is a powerful testimony.
***us3:5--"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;"

But where does it say that in the verse? Can you show me?

[Billyray]

***us3:5--"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;"


"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us. . ."

Can you tell us what this means?

[dberrie2000]

***us3:5--"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;"

But where does it say that in the verse? Can you show me?

Billyray--as the commentaries show--the washing of regeneration represents water baptism--they all agreed on that:

"These commentators all agree and most of them cite biblical evidence to back up their position. The "washing of regeneration" in ***us 3:5 is baptism. "

Cyprian

6. But what a thing it is, to ***ert and contend that they who are not born in the Church can be the sons of God! For the blessed apostle sets forth and proves that baptism is that wherein the old man dies and the new man is born, saying, He saved us by the washing of regeneration. ***us 3:5 But if regeneration is in the washing, that is, in baptism, how can heresy, which is not the spouse of Christ, generate sons to God by Christ? For it is the Church alone which, conjoined and united with Christ, spiritually bears sons; as the same apostle again says, Christ loved the Church, and gave Himself for it, that He might sanctify it, cleansing it with the washing of water. Ephesians 5:25-26 If, then, she is the beloved and spouse who alone is sanctified by Christ, and alone is cleansed by His washing, it is manifest that heresy, which is not the spouse of Christ, nor can be cleansed nor sanctified by His washing, cannot bear sons to God.
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/050673.htm


The ECU also agrees--that it was water baptism that was related to the regeneration.

[Billyray]

Billyray--as the commentaries show--the washing of regeneration represents water baptism--they all agreed on that:


ALL commentaries don't agree on that DB just the ones that you have selectively picked, which of course just so happen to be the ones that agree with your position.



ESV Study Bible Commentary for ***us 3:5

***us 3:5 . . .Salvation comes not because of works but by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit. Some have understood this as saying that baptism (“the washing”) causes salvation. However, in this context human deeds are clearly downplayed (“not because of works”) and the emphasis is on divine action and initiative (“he saved us”). The “washing” described here is the spiritual cleansing, which is outwardly symbolized in baptism.

[RealFakeHair]

***us3:5--"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;"


There has been some discussion between the relationship between water baptism and salvation. Could water baptism be connected to "regeneration" and not be salvational?


http://www.truthmagazine.com/archives/volume34/GOT034331.html


What is the "washing of regeneration" by which he saved us? We have collected the comments of various outstanding Bible scholars from a diversity of religious groups. These men often differ on some of the details in this p***age, but they all agree as to what the "washing of regeneration" is. We do not cite them as our authority, but ask that you weigh their arguments carefully.

John Wesley: "Sanctification, expressed by the laver of regeneration (that is, baptism, the thing signified, as well as the outward sign), and the renewal of the Holy Ghost, which purifies the soul, as water cleanses the body, and renews it in the whole image of God" (One Volume New Testament Commentary, Wesley, Clarke, Henry, et. al.).


Cambridge Greek Testament (J.H. Bernard): "That the 'washing of regeneration' is the Water of Baptism is undoubted; see Eph. 5:26 . . . It is the instrument (dia) of salvation (cp. 1 Pet. 3:21 . . . ), the means, that is, through which we are placed in a 'state of salvation,' in union with the mystical Body of Christ; cp. Gal. 3:27. . ."

The New Bible Commentary (A.M. Stibbs): "In status this salvation is made ours through the outward seal of baptism; in vital experience it comes through the inner quickening by the Spirit."

The Pulpit Commentary (A.C. Hervey): "Here we have the means through or by which God's mercy saves us . . . (regeneration) therefore, very fitly describes the new birth in holy baptism, when the believer is put into possession of a new spiritual life, a new nature, and a new inheritance of glory. And the laver of baptism is called 'laver of regeneration,' because it is the ordained means by or through which regeneration is obtained."

William Hendriksen: "It is clear from such p***ages as John 3:3,5 and especially Ephesians 5:26 (cf. Heb. 10:22) that this 'washing of regeneration and renewing' stand in some relation to the rite of baptism. Undoubtedly, also here in ***us 3:5 there is an implied reference to this sacrament" (New Testament Commentary).

Albert Barnes: "The word (washing) itself would naturally be understood as referring to baptism (comp. Notes on Acts 22:16), which was regarded as the emblem of washing away sins, or of cleansing from them" (Barnes' Notes on the New Testament).

Henry Alford: "Observe, there is here no figure: the words are literal: Baptism is taken as in all its completion, the outward visible sign accompanied by the inward spiritual grace; and as thus complete, it not only represents, but is the new birth." At Hebrews 10:22, Alford says the clause having our body washed with pure water "refers directly to Christian baptism" and cites washing of water (Eph. 5:26) and washing of regeneration (***. 3:5) as "****ogous expressions" (The Greek New Testament).

James Macknight: "Through the bath of regeneration: through baptism; called 'the bath of regeneration,' not because any change in the nature of the baptized person is produced by baptism, but because it is an emblem of the purification of his soul from sin. . . " (Apostolical Epistles).

G.R. Beasley-Murray: Beasley-Murray said in 1962 "of all the commentators who have written on these Epistles [1 Timothy, 2 Timothy, ***us], I can find but one who denies" that this refers to baptism. He says, "All things considered, it requires a real hardiness of spirit to refuse the weight of this evidence. . . " (Baptism, pp. 209, 210). I have come across one additional more recent commentator who denies that baptism is under consideration.

What is the "washing of regeneration" by which he saved us? These commentators all agree and most of them cite biblical evidence to back up their position. The "washing of regeneration" in ***us 3:5 is baptism. In the chart below we have replaced the phrase "washing of regeneration" with the word baptism. This is proper since this is the meaning of the phrase.



Where does this leave faith alone theology? They carefully eliminate water baptism from anything salvational. But yet, if the testimonies of Christ, the Early Church Fathers, and the scholars are true--then it is the quite attached to regeneration.

If when you were a kid, and your mother told you to go and take a bath, I doubt she okay it if all you did was fill up the tub and take a dip without a good washcloth and soap. So using your interpretation of washing is missing something?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000
***us3:5--"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;"


There has been some discussion between the relationship between water baptism and salvation. Could water baptism be connected to "regeneration" and not be salvational?


http://www.truthmagazine.com/archive...GOT034331.html


What is the "washing of regeneration" by which he saved us? We have collected the comments of various outstanding Bible scholars from a diversity of religious groups. These men often differ on some of the details in this p***age, but they all agree as to what the "washing of regeneration" is. We do not cite them as our authority, but ask that you weigh their arguments carefully.

John Wesley: "Sanctification, expressed by the laver of regeneration (that is, baptism, the thing signified, as well as the outward sign), and the renewal of the Holy Ghost, which purifies the soul, as water cleanses the body, and renews it in the whole image of God" (One Volume New Testament Commentary, Wesley, Clarke, Henry, et. al.).


Cambridge Greek Testament (J.H. Bernard): "That the 'washing of regeneration' is the Water of Baptism is undoubted; see Eph. 5:26 . . . It is the instrument (dia) of salvation (cp. 1 Pet. 3:21 . . . ), the means, that is, through which we are placed in a 'state of salvation,' in union with the mystical Body of Christ; cp. Gal. 3:27. . ."

The New Bible Commentary (A.M. Stibbs): "In status this salvation is made ours through the outward seal of baptism; in vital experience it comes through the inner quickening by the Spirit."

The Pulpit Commentary (A.C. Hervey): "Here we have the means through or by which God's mercy saves us . . . (regeneration) therefore, very fitly describes the new birth in holy baptism, when the believer is put into possession of a new spiritual life, a new nature, and a new inheritance of glory. And the laver of baptism is called 'laver of regeneration,' because it is the ordained means by or through which regeneration is obtained."

William Hendriksen: "It is clear from such p***ages as John 3:3,5 and especially Ephesians 5:26 (cf. Heb. 10:22) that this 'washing of regeneration and renewing' stand in some relation to the rite of baptism. Undoubtedly, also here in ***us 3:5 there is an implied reference to this sacrament" (New Testament Commentary).

Albert Barnes: "The word (washing) itself would naturally be understood as referring to baptism (comp. Notes on Acts 22:16), which was regarded as the emblem of washing away sins, or of cleansing from them" (Barnes' Notes on the New Testament).

Henry Alford: "Observe, there is here no figure: the words are literal: Baptism is taken as in all its completion, the outward visible sign accompanied by the inward spiritual grace; and as thus complete, it not only represents, but is the new birth." At Hebrews 10:22, Alford says the clause having our body washed with pure water "refers directly to Christian baptism" and cites washing of water (Eph. 5:26) and washing of regeneration (***. 3:5) as "****ogous expressions" (The Greek New Testament).

James Macknight: "Through the bath of regeneration: through baptism; called 'the bath of regeneration,' not because any change in the nature of the baptized person is produced by baptism, but because it is an emblem of the purification of his soul from sin. . . " (Apostolical Epistles).

G.R. Beasley-Murray: Beasley-Murray said in 1962 "of all the commentators who have written on these Epistles [1 Timothy, 2 Timothy, ***us], I can find but one who denies" that this refers to baptism. He says, "All things considered, it requires a real hardiness of spirit to refuse the weight of this evidence. . . " (Baptism, pp. 209, 210). I have come across one additional more recent commentator who denies that baptism is under consideration.

What is the "washing of regeneration" by which he saved us? These commentators all agree and most of them cite biblical evidence to back up their position. The "washing of regeneration" in ***us 3:5 is baptism. In the chart below we have replaced the phrase "washing of regeneration" with the word baptism. This is proper since this is the meaning of the phrase.



Where does this leave faith alone theology? They carefully eliminate water baptism from anything salvational. But yet, if the testimonies of Christ, the Early Church Fathers, and the scholars are true--then it is the quite attached to regeneration.





If when you were a kid, and your mother told you to go and take a bath, I doubt she okay it if all you did was fill up the tub and take a dip without a good washcloth and soap. So using your interpretation of washing is missing something?


The ECF's quoted neither included my mother nor me. But as the conclusion stated--all agreed--the "washing of regeneration" is water baptism.

Where does that leave faith alone theology?

[Billyray]

***us3:5--"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;"

Did you bother reading your own verse?

What does "Not by works of righteousness" mean to you?

Isn't water baptism a work of righteousness?

[RealFakeHair]

The ECF's quoted neither included my mother nor me. But as the conclusion stated--all agreed--the "washing of regeneration" is water baptism.

Where does that leave faith alone theology?

I disagreed. water baptism, is John the Baptist work, and no one was saved by his baptism.
Jesus baptism is of fire, ie Holy Spirit, and there is one baptism, and that baptism is Jesus, not John's.

[dberrie2000]

Did you bother reading your own verse?

What does "Not by works of righteousness" mean to you?

The same thing that it meant to those ECF that are listed--water baptism.

That they all agreed is a strong testimony against you.

[Billyray]

The same thing that it meant to those ECF that are listed--water baptism.

That they all agreed is a strong testimony against you.

Isn't baptism a work of righteousness?

[dberrie2000]

Isn't baptism a work of righteousness?

Whatever you believe baptism is--the "washing of regeneration" was identified as water baptism by the Early Church Fathers.

Regeneration and water baptism are connected, according to their testimony.

Could you explain how that fits into your theology?

[dberrie2000]

I disagreed. water baptism, is John the Baptist work, and no one was saved by his baptism.
Jesus baptism is of fire, ie Holy Spirit, and there is one baptism, and that baptism is Jesus, not John's.

And how does your opinion cancel out, cover, or annul the fact that the ECF identified the "washing of regeneration" as water baptism--and the fact that they agreed--water baptism was essential for salvation?

[Billyray]

Whatever you believe baptism is--the "washing of regeneration" was identified as water baptism by the Early Church Fathers.


How about answering thequestion?

Isn't baptism a work of righteousness?

[Billyray]

Could you explain how that fits into your theology?

I would be happy to. The above p***age is not speaking about water baptism. Now that was easy wasn't it?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000
Could you explain how that fits into your theology?



I would be happy to. The above p***age is not speaking about water baptism. Now that was easy wasn't it?

Simple, yes. Effective, no. Not in light of the evidence posted from the Early Church Father's unified testimony:


http://www.truthmagazine.com/archive...GOT034331.html


What is the "washing of regeneration" by which he saved us? We have collected the comments of various outstanding Bible scholars from a diversity of religious groups. These men often differ on some of the details in this p***age, but they all agree as to what the "washing of regeneration" is. We do not cite them as our authority, but ask that you weigh their arguments carefully.

John Wesley: "Sanctification, expressed by the laver of regeneration (that is, baptism, the thing signified, as well as the outward sign), and the renewal of the Holy Ghost, which purifies the soul, as water cleanses the body, and renews it in the whole image of God" (One Volume New Testament Commentary, Wesley, Clarke, Henry, et. al.).


Cambridge Greek Testament (J.H. Bernard): "That the 'washing of regeneration' is the Water of Baptism is undoubted; see Eph. 5:26 . . . It is the instrument (dia) of salvation (cp. 1 Pet. 3:21 . . . ), the means, that is, through which we are placed in a 'state of salvation,' in union with the mystical Body of Christ; cp. Gal. 3:27. . ."

The New Bible Commentary (A.M. Stibbs): "In status this salvation is made ours through the outward seal of baptism; in vital experience it comes through the inner quickening by the Spirit."

The Pulpit Commentary (A.C. Hervey): "Here we have the means through or by which God's mercy saves us . . . (regeneration) therefore, very fitly describes the new birth in holy baptism, when the believer is put into possession of a new spiritual life, a new nature, and a new inheritance of glory. And the laver of baptism is called 'laver of regeneration,' because it is the ordained means by or through which regeneration is obtained."

William Hendriksen: "It is clear from such p***ages as John 3:3,5 and especially Ephesians 5:26 (cf. Heb. 10:22) that this 'washing of regeneration and renewing' stand in some relation to the rite of baptism. Undoubtedly, also here in ***us 3:5 there is an implied reference to this sacrament" (New Testament Commentary).

Albert Barnes: "The word (washing) itself would naturally be understood as referring to baptism (comp. Notes on Acts 22:16), which was regarded as the emblem of washing away sins, or of cleansing from them" (Barnes' Notes on the New Testament).

Henry Alford: "Observe, there is here no figure: the words are literal: Baptism is taken as in all its completion, the outward visible sign accompanied by the inward spiritual grace; and as thus complete, it not only represents, but is the new birth." At Hebrews 10:22, Alford says the clause having our body washed with pure water "refers directly to Christian baptism" and cites washing of water (Eph. 5:26) and washing of regeneration (***. 3:5) as "****ogous expressions" (The Greek New Testament).

James Macknight: "Through the bath of regeneration: through baptism; called 'the bath of regeneration,' not because any change in the nature of the baptized person is produced by baptism, but because it is an emblem of the purification of his soul from sin. . . " (Apostolical Epistles).

G.R. Beasley-Murray: Beasley-Murray said in 1962 "of all the commentators who have written on these Epistles [1 Timothy, 2 Timothy, ***us], I can find but one who denies" that this refers to baptism. He says, "All things considered, it requires a real hardiness of spirit to refuse the weight of this evidence. . . " (Baptism, pp. 209, 210). I have come across one additional more recent commentator who denies that baptism is under consideration.

What is the "washing of regeneration" by which he saved us? These commentators all agree and most of them cite biblical evidence to back up their position. The "washing of regeneration" in ***us 3:5 is baptism. In the chart below we have replaced the phrase "washing of regeneration" with the word baptism. This is proper since this is the meaning of the phrase.

[RealFakeHair]

And how does your opinion cancel out, cover, or annul the fact that the ECF identified the "washing of regeneration" as water baptism--and the fact that they agreed--water baptism was essential for salvation?

John's baptism and Jesus Baptism are two different baptism.
A person can be baptismed in water in both names and it doesn't mean a thing is one is not Born Again, as Jesus told Nicoldemus.
We are first born of water, the flesh, and then to be reborn we are born of the Spirit.
Peter came to realize this when he said. "Even baptism doth also now save us, (Not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience towards God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.
I know all sides came be debated, However I take Christ, and Christ alone for my Salvation.

[James Banta]

John's baptism and Jesus Baptism are two different baptism.
A person can be baptismed in water in both names and it doesn't mean a thing is one is not Born Again, as Jesus told Nicoldemus.
We are first born of water, the flesh, and then to be reborn we are born of the Spirit.
Peter came to realize this when he said. "Even baptism doth also now save us, (Not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience towards God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.
I know all sides came be debated, However I take Christ, and Christ alone for my Salvation.

You have nailed it Hair.. Jesus is the WAY, to the Father, the TRUTH of the Father, and the LIFE of the Father. No one comes to the Father but by Him.. No water, no work, no temples, no ordinances can save. Salvation is only in and through Jesus. If anyone comes up with ANYTHING else then they are missing the Person and purpose of Jesus and have made Him less then He is.. The LDS do thing with baptism. It's what they can do, not what God in the Person of Jesus has done.. IHS jim

[RealFakeHair]

You have nailed it Hair.. Jesus is the WAY, to the Father, the TRUTH of the Father, and the LIFE of the Father. No one comes to the Father but by Him.. No water, no work, no temples, no ordinances can save. Salvation is only in and through Jesus. If anyone comes up with ANYTHING else then they are missing the Person and purpose of Jesus and have made Him less then He is.. The LDS do thing with baptism. It's what they can do, not what God in the Person of Jesus has done.. IHS jim

Deep down the the soul of a TBM is the guilt of un'worthiness of the soul.
The work ethic of a Puritan face staring in the mirror of the sin, and finding emptiness of trust.
Trusting Jesus and Jesus of the Holy Bible alone for one's Eternal Salvation is never an option for prefection. Leaving the Sinner on an endless journey of obligations to the Rule Makers, and Referees who constantly change the game.
I chose not to play their sport, nor wish anyone to be trapped in the maze of mormonism.
Blind is the Unfortunate who refuse to escape the bondage of Circle with no perimeters.
The ever changing restored gospel of Joseph Smith jr. Can never point in one direction without shorting the other.
At what measurement does one reach perfection to Exaltaton, no one knows.
For what Nirvana gives it take much more, more than God of the Holy Bible asks.
Come unto me all ye that labour and are heavy laden and I will give you rest. Matthew 11:28.
I rest my case. Amen!

[James Banta]

Deep down the the soul of a TBM is the guilt of un'worthiness of the soul.
The work ethic of a Puritan face staring in the mirror of the sin, and finding emptiness of trust.
Trusting Jesus and Jesus of the Holy Bible alone for one's Eternal Salvation is never an option for prefection. Leaving the Sinner on an endless journey of obligations to the Rule Makers, and Referees who constantly change the game.
I chose not to play their sport, nor wish anyone to be trapped in the maze of mormonism.
Blind is the Unfortunate who refuse to escape the bondage of Circle with no perimeters.
The ever changing restored gospel of Joseph Smith jr. Can never point in one direction without shorting the other.
At what measurement does one reach perfection to Exaltaton, no one knows.
For what Nirvana gives it take much more, more than God of the Holy Bible asks.
Come unto me all ye that labour and are heavy laden and I will give you rest. Matthew 11:28.
I rest my case. Amen!

Because you have rested not just your case but your very salvation in Jesus you are my dear brother.. I long for your instruction to keep me in the place before God I am at this moment.. But like a dear teacher of mine had a habit od repeating "WE LEAK".. Having you here to keep refilling me is a real blessing.. Don't for an instant believe that your words are just for the LDS I try to read all you write and am lifted by your instruction.. I see you as a man solid in Christ and a teacher of His word, a man that teaches only His word and that without fear or prejudice.. Please continue.. IHS jim

[BigJulie]

Deep down the the soul of a TBM is the guilt of un'worthiness of the soul.


Balogna. Speak for yourself.

[RealFakeHair]

Balogna. Speak for yourself.

I have found a worthy TBM. Keep on trucking.:cool:

[BigJulie]

I have found a worthy TBM. Keep on trucking.:cool:

The love of God is an amazing thing and I have learned, through the power of the atonement, I don't have to accept mediocrity.

I truly do have a testimony that with God all things are possible. He wants my life to be glorious and good. God doesn't save me in my sin--He changed me and saves me from my sin.


Our Greatest Fear —Marianne Williamson
it is our light not our darkness that most frightens us

Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate.

Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure.

It is our light not our darkness that most frightens us.

We ask ourselves, who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous,
talented and fabulous?

Actually, who are you not to be?

You are a child of God.

Your playing small does not serve the world.

There's nothing enlightened about shrinking so that other

people won't feel insecure around you.

We were born to make manifest the glory of
God that is within us.

It's not just in some of us; it's in everyone.

And as we let our own light shine,
we unconsciously give other people
permission to do the same.

As we are liberated from our own fear,
Our presence automatically liberates others.

—Marianne Williamson

[RealFakeHair]

The love of God is an amazing thing and I through the power of the atonement, I don't have to accept mediocrity.

I truly do have a testimony that with God all things are possible. He wants my life to be glorious and good. God doesn't save me in my sin--He changed me and saves me from my sin.

Any ol Baptist could say most of these same words, however to the eye of the common person of faith is will p*** them by as similar.
However I am no common person, uncommon maybe is not the correct word.
Atonement, what does that mean to a mormon?
The Atonement for mormons was the mormon jesus sufferage in the Garden of Gethsemane. The Cross was secondary moot point in fact.
What is mediocrity to a TBM? Less than godhood, or goddess.
God never promised us a rose garden. He said. PHl 1:29. For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake..

God doesn't save me in my sin, He changed me and saves me from my sin.
Elaborate on this sentence. It sound like your sins are all around you but can't touch you, or something?:confused:

[dberrie2000]

The love of God is an amazing thing and I through the power of the atonement, I don't have to accept mediocrity.

I truly do have a testimony that with God all things are possible. He wants my life to be glorious and good. God doesn't save me in my sin--He changed me and saves me from my sin.

Any ol Baptist could say most of these same words, however to the eye of the common person of faith is will p*** them by as similar.

However I am no common person, uncommon maybe is not the correct word.




Could you elaborate between the difference of common person of faith and the any other person of faith?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000
And how does your opinion cancel out, cover, or annul the fact that the ECF identified the "washing of regeneration" as water baptism--and the fact that they agreed--water baptism was essential for salvation?



John's baptism and Jesus Baptism are two different baptism.


Jesus' baptism included water baptism:


St Matthew3:16--"And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:"

The same as the Christian baptism--the water and the Spirit:


Acts2:38--"Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."



A person can be baptismed in water in both names and it doesn't mean a thing is one is not Born Again,

Henry Alford: "Observe, there is here no figure: the words are literal: Baptism is taken as in all its completion, the outward visible sign accompanied by the inward spiritual grace; and as thus complete, it not only represents, but is the new birth." At Hebrews 10:22, Alford says the clause having our body washed with pure water "refers directly to Christian baptism" and cites washing of water (Eph. 5:26) and washing of regeneration (***. 3:5) as "****ogous expressions" (The Greek New Testament).



as Jesus told Nicoldemus. We are first born of water, the flesh, and then to be reborn we are born of the Spirit.

That's the faith alone tale--here is the scriptural truth:

St John3:5--"Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."



Peter came to realize this when he said. "Even baptism doth also now save us, (Not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience towards God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

What part of "Even baptism doth also now save us," are we not getting?

[James Banta]

Balogna. Speak for yourself.

Are you telling us that you are worthy? To be so you must demand there is no sin in you. If you make that demand you confess to us that there is no truth in you (1 John 1:8).. So which is it are you perfect in your ways before God or are you like us and admit that you are a sinner.. If you are a sinner How do you deal with that sin? Do you repent of each and ever sin you commit or do you look to Jesus confessing your sin and taking His righteousness as your own (Romans 4:24).. So far all I see in your words here is that you deceive yourself .. IHS jim

[RealFakeHair]

Jesus' baptism included water baptism:


St Matthew3:16--"And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:"

The same as the Christian baptism--the water and the Spirit:


Acts2:38--"Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."




Henry Alford: "Observe, there is here no figure: the words are literal: Baptism is taken as in all its completion, the outward visible sign accompanied by the inward spiritual grace; and as thus complete, it not only represents, but is the new birth." At Hebrews 10:22, Alford says the clause having our body washed with pure water "refers directly to Christian baptism" and cites washing of water (Eph. 5:26) and washing of regeneration (***. 3:5) as "****ogous expressions" (The Greek New Testament).




That's the faith alone tale--here is the scriptural truth:

St John3:5--"Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."




What part of "Even baptism doth also now save us," are we not getting?

Once again, water never saved anyone. The Holy Bible never tells us water baptism saved anyone. However Jesus said, drink from this cup of living water.
All one need for their Eternal Salvation is to drink from Jesus cup, and that cup is to receive willingly His saving Grace as written in St John 3:16. Amen.

[dberrie2000]

Once again, water never saved anyone.

The scriptures teach that water baptism is essential for salvation--the same testmony the Early Church Fathers bore to all as a great and eternal truth.

I do not believe that the scriptures take that to mean that water baptism in and by itself saves--anymore than repentance or faith in Christ saves--but they are principles and ordinance that is essential in order to receive the saving grace of Christ.



The Holy Bible never tells us water baptism saved anyone.

Although I agree with the intent of your point--I do not even believe you can fully make that point either:


1 Peter3:21--The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us....

However one might want to read it--water baptism was taught as a saving doctrine of Jesus Christ, IE--that those who obeyed God, and repented and were water baptized--received of His grace unto the forgiveness of sins.

Acts2:38--"Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."



However Jesus said, drink from this cup of living water.
All one need for their Eternal Salvation is to drink from Jesus cup, and that cup is to receive willingly His saving Grace as written in St John 3:16. Amen.


Could you explain for us how repenting and being water baptized for the forgiveness of sins is not drinking of the living waters?

[RealFakeHair]

The scriptures teach that water baptism is essential for salvation--the same testmony the Early Church Fathers bore to all as a great and eternal truth.

I do not believe that the scriptures take that to mean that water baptism in and by itself saves--anymore than repentance or faith in Christ saves--but they are principles and ordinance that is essential in order to receive the saving grace of Christ.




Although I agree with the intent of your point--I do not even believe you can fully make that point either:


1 Peter3:21--The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us....

However one might want to read it--water baptism was taught as a saving doctrine of Jesus Christ, IE--that those who obeyed God, and repented and were water baptized--received of His grace unto the forgiveness of sins.

Acts2:38--"Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."





Could you explain for us how repenting and being water baptized for the forgiveness of sins is not drinking of the living waters?
no it is not the same, I don't know where you come up with that?
IN no way, How in the word could someone recieve the Holy Ghost, if before hand they had to be water baptized?

We water baptize because it is commanded that we do so in the Name of the Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost. Matt, 18.
We are not commanded to water baptize to be SAVED!
Water baptism is a ritual, nothing more, and nothing less.

[James Banta]

[dberrie2000;130754]The scriptures teach that water baptism is essential for salvation--the same testmony the Early Church Fathers bore to all as a great and eternal truth.

I do not believe that the scriptures take that to mean that water baptism in and by itself saves--anymore than repentance or faith in Christ saves--but they are principles and ordinance that is essential in order to receive the saving grace of Christ.

What you believe, that is the gospel according to dberrie, just doesn't matter! What is important is what God has told us.. He said that without shedding of Blood there is no remission of sin. That Jesus died shedding His blood as an atonement for sin. That He who knew no sen became sin in our place that we could become the righteousness of God in His place.. Berrie, WATER JUST CAN'T DO THE ***. It requires BLOOD and only BLOOD.. Baptism saves us only is having a good conscious toward God. It does NOT put away the filth of the flesh. The Bible therefore NEVER teaches that we are saved through water baptism.. No matter how much a man says it. No matter how important they seemed to be even in the early Church, baptism just has no means to cleanse sin from men..

Only the grace offered to those who hold faith in Jesus. If a person believes that can access his blood and be cleansed through faith in some other man's invented God, whether it be an idol of stone or an image they have built in their heart, an image that doesn't conform to every attribute that God has given to us of Himself such as having been God from everlasting and continuing as the only true God to eternity, they are in idolatry. There is no salvation in faith in such as that, there is no salvation in being baptized into such as that.. The only principle of salvation which we need to observed is to be open to God's gift of faith in Jesus.. With that God will also provide the grace..


1 Peter3:21--The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us....

(NOT the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ

It would be nice if you could make your point using all the context of even a verse but you did well because to use the whole verse you can see that baptism doesn't cleanse anyone of the filth of this world but is a testimony of what God has done within us cleansing us and making us His own.. I know you can do it so try a bit harder to be honest when you quote scripture..


However one might want to read it--water baptism was taught as a saving doctrine of Jesus Christ, IE--that those who obeyed God, and repented and were water baptized--received of His grace unto the forgiveness of sins.

Since no one has ever obeyed God in the flesh save Jesus your premise for receive grace is flawed.. Grace (The unmerited favor of God) can't be earned through works, not even though obedience. It is given to those who have faith in Jesus plus NOTHING.. It is NOT OF WORKS.. No one will be able to say "Look what I earned".. It will only be look what GOD has done from us through our LORD Jesus!!!


Acts2:38--"Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."

Could you explain for us how repenting and being water baptized for the forgiveness of sins is not drinking of the living waters?

Every Christian will tell you that the things they do in God's service are not their works but their LORD's works He does through them. The loving waters in Jesus Himself. because our good works belong to Him even baptism is done for Him not for us. It is because we believe in Him that our sins are remitted.. Water just doesn't have the power to take on sin.. Blood is required, the blood of an eternal sacrifice. Baptism just hasn't the ability to to bring us to God.. If it had that power Jesus didn't need to go to the cross.. He could have died in His sleep. But the Law requires BLOOD! IHS jim

[theway]

St John3:5--"Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."
I have already shown Billy that almost every single one of the ECFs and every one of the Protestant fathers quoted this verse in order to show that "WATER baptism" was necessary for salvation as well as faith. His response has always been, "Does not..."

I guess the whole early church really was in total apostasy according to Billyray.

[RealFakeHair]

I have already shown Billy that almost every single one of the ECFs and every one of the Protestant fathers quoted this verse in order to show that "WATER baptism" was necessary for salvation as well as faith. His response has always been, "Does not..."

I guess the whole early church really was in total apostasy according to Billyray.

Could you tell me how much water saves you?
one drop? one Gallon? an ocean full?
You can't answer this, no one ever has.
I can tell you just one drop of blood can save your soul.
Jesus paid the price, all one needs is to believe, do you?
Once again, the Holy Bible never tells us Water baptism saves us.

[dberrie2000]

dberrie----The scriptures teach that water baptism is essential for salvation--the same testmony the Early Church Fathers bore to all as a great and eternal truth.

I do not believe that the scriptures take that to mean that water baptism in and by itself saves--anymore than repentance or faith in Christ saves--but they are principles and ordinance that is essential in order to receive the saving grace of Christ.


James Banta---- What is important is what God has told us.. He said that without shedding of Blood there is no remission of sin.

That's a scriptural fact---and this is what is taught, preached, and performed throughout the Biblical NT history:


Acts2:38--"Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."

The forgiveness of sins is made possible for all men due to the Atonememt. The actual reception of personal forgiveness of sins was made possible through repentance and water baptism--just as the Early Church Fathers bore testimony to--without exception.

And what Christ and His disciples taught in the Biblical NT.



dberrie-----1 Peter3:21--The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us....


James Banta---(NOT the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ

It would be nice if you could make your point using all the context of even a verse but you did well because to use the whole verse you can see that baptism doesn't cleanse anyone of the filth of this world

I agree--water baptism, nor repentance, nor faith in Christ,etc. cleanses us from sin.

It is God's Blood that does that--and that grace goes to those who obey Him--such as repentance and water baptism for the remission of sins.

What is it about the command to repent and be baptized for the remission of sins that you do not believe?




dberrie----However one might want to read it--water baptism was taught as a saving doctrine of Jesus Christ, IE--that those who obeyed God, and repented and were water baptized--received of His grace unto the forgiveness of sins.


James Banta----Since no one has ever obeyed God in the flesh save Jesus your premise for receive grace is flawed..

Then so is the scriptures:

Acts2:38--"Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."

What is it about repentance and water baptism that you do not consider obedience to Jesus Christ--and what is it about the forgiveness of sins that you do not consider His grace?


Are you saying that no one has ever repented and have been water baptized?


Acts2:38-42--"Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.

41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers."

[RealFakeHair]

That's a scriptural fact---and this is what is taught, preached, and performed throughout the Biblical NT history:


Acts2:38--"Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."

The forgiveness of sins is made possible for all men due to the Atonememt. The actual reception of personal forgiveness of sins was made possible through repentance and water baptism--just as the Early Church Fathers bore testimony to--without exception.

And what Christ and His disciples taught in the Biblical NT.






I agree--water baptism, nor repentance, nor faith in Christ,etc. cleanses us from sin.

It is God's Blood that does that--and that grace goes to those who obey Him--such as repentance and water baptism for the remission of sins.

What is it about the command to repent and be baptized for the remission of sins that you do not believe?







Then so is the scriptures:

Acts2:38--"Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."

What is it about repentance and water baptism that you do not consider obedience to Jesus Christ--and what is it about the forgiveness of sins that you do not consider His grace?


Are you saying that no one has ever repented and have been water baptized?


Acts2:38-42--"Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.

41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers."

Once again, you overlook something worthy of thought.
Act 10: 47. Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?'

Jesus baptism trumps all, and Jesus baptized by Fire, ie the Holy Ghost.

[BigJulie]

Once again, you overlook something worthy of thought.
Act 10: 47. Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?'

Jesus baptism trumps all, and Jesus baptized by Fire, ie the Holy Ghost.

Read it through. As it reads, Peter brought with him gentiles and the Jews witnessed that the Holy Ghost was poured onto them as well. Peter then (through this verse) basically asks, should any of these not be baptized--can we forbid them from being baptized as it was evident that they had the Holy Ghost poured out on them?

In other words, those who have received a witness of the Holy Ghost (whether Jew or gentile) should not be denied baptism.

[dberrie2000]

Once again, you overlook something worthy of thought.

Act 10: 47. Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?'

Jesus baptism trumps all, and Jesus baptized by Fire, ie the Holy Ghost.



And again--the Holy Ghost and water baptism is connected in the scriptures:



Acts10:45-48--"And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,

47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days."

[RealFakeHair]

And again--the Holy Ghost and water baptism is connected in the scriptures:



Acts10:45-48--"And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,

47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days."
The new believers had receive the Holy Ghost as well as (We).
What does that mean? It means they received the Baptism of whom? Jesus Christ, and if you are trying to say, Jesus Christ baptism isn't good enough to save me, That I must also have John the Baptist baptism, then I say, That's Crazy!:(

[BigJulie]

The new believers had receive the Holy Ghost as well as (We).
What does that mean? It means they received the Baptism of whom? Jesus Christ, and if you are trying to say, Jesus Christ baptism isn't good enough to save me, That I must also have John the Baptist baptism, then I say, That's Crazy!:(

RealFake, you seem to be missing the point that AFTER the gentiles had received a witness of the Holy Ghost, they were then baptized by water. Apparently Peter does not agree with you that the Holy Ghost was enough. But, he was just an apostle chosen by Christ. Why bother to listen to him when you know better? ;)

[RealFakeHair]

RealFake, you seem to be missing the point that AFTER the gentiles had received a witness of the Holy Ghost, they were then baptized by water. Apparently Peter does not agree with you that the Holy Ghost was enough. But, he was just an apostle chosen by Christ. Why bother to listen to him when you know better? ;)

No, The Holy Bible didn't say the gentiles received a witness of the Holy Ghost, they received the Holy Ghost just like Peter had.
Peter command they be baptized in the name of the Lord, and they were.
Peter did not say baptize them so they might be saved.

[BigJulie]

No, The Holy Bible didn't say the gentiles received a witness of the Holy Ghost, they received the Holy Ghost just like Peter had.
Peter command they be baptized in the name of the Lord, and they were.
Peter did not say baptize them so they might be saved.

Oh---so, your problem isn't that Peter wanted them baptized, your problem is that you believe that they were already saved because they have received the Holy Spirit poured out on them. So then, why do you think it was important to Peter that they were baptized? Especially in light of this verse:

Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. (Why be baptized if they already received the Holy Ghost?)

[RealFakeHair]

Oh---so, your problem isn't that Peter wanted them baptized, your problem is that you believe that they were already saved because they have received the Holy Spirit poured out on them. So then, why do you think it was important to Peter that they were baptized? Especially in light of this verse:

Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. (Why be baptized if they already received the Holy Ghost?)

They had received the Holy Ghost, they had by-past the water.
They as Peter came to understand more fully in 1 Peter 3:21.
Peter got what you and other works doctrine believes haven't gotten to this date, and that is; baptism of a good conscience towards God, by the resurrection of Jesus Christ...
Salvation has nothing to do with water, it has all to do with the Resurrection of Jesus Christ, through believing on Jesus Christ, and Him alone.

[BigJulie]

They had received the Holy Ghost, they had by-past the water.
They as Peter came to understand more fully in 1 Peter 3:21.
Peter got what you and other works doctrine believes haven't gotten to this date, and that is; baptism of a good conscience towards God, by the resurrection of Jesus Christ...
Salvation has nothing to do with water, it has all to do with the Resurrection of Jesus Christ, through believing on Jesus Christ, and Him alone.

I agree that was are saved by Christ. That said, Christ teaches us to be baptized.

And the verse you brought up is Peter teaching why Christ went and taught those who died prior to the flood in their ig.norant state and how baptism represents being reborn in Christ. That does not negate him teaching baptism for the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Ghost.

[RealFakeHair]

I agree that was are saved by Christ. That said, Christ teaches us to be baptized.

And the verse you brought up is Peter teaching why Christ went and taught those who died prior to the flood in their ig.norant state and how baptism represents being reborn in Christ. That does not negate him teaching baptism for the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Jesus commanded us to baptize, but never said our Savation depended on it.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000
And again--the Holy Ghost and water baptism is connected in the scriptures:


Acts10:45-48--"And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,

47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days."



The new believers had receive the Holy Ghost as well as (We).
What does that mean? It means they received the Baptism of whom? Jesus Christ, and if you are trying to say, Jesus Christ baptism isn't good enough to save me, That I must also have John the Baptist baptism, then I say, That's Crazy!:(



Just a point here, RFH--Repentance and water baptism was given for the same reason throughout the NT--the remission of sins:


St Mark1:1-4--"The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;

2 As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.

3 The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.

4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins."



Acts2:38--"Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."


Acts22:16--"And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord."


The only question left to ask is--do you believe the remission of sins is somehow connected to salvation?

[RealFakeHair]

Just a point here, RFH--Repentance and water baptism was given for the same reason throughout the NT--the remission of sins:


St Mark1:1-4--"The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;

2 As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.

3 The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.

4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins."



Acts2:38--"Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."


Acts22:16--"And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord."


The only question left to ask is--do you believe the remission of sins is somehow connected to salvation?

Once again, they received the Holy Ghost and then were baptized in water.
ie, they receieve the Gift of the Holy Ghost, Salvation, and then were water baptized.

What part of this do you not understand?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000
Just a point here, RFH--Repentance and water baptism was given for the same reason throughout the NT--the remission of sins:


St Mark1:1-4--"The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;

2 As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.

3 The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.

4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins."



Acts2:38--"Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."


Acts22:16--"And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord."


The only question left to ask is--do you believe the remission of sins is somehow connected to salvation?



Once again, they received the Holy Ghost and then were baptized in water.
ie, they receieve the Gift of the Holy Ghost, Salvation, and then were water baptized.

What part of this do you not understand?


The part you did not answer--do you believe the forgiveness of sins is necessary for salvation?

[Billyray]

RealFake, you seem to be missing the point that AFTER the gentiles had received a witness of the Holy Ghost, they were then baptized by water.

Sure. Just like most Christians. But the queston is whether or not baptism contributes for salvation. What say you?

[theway]

Could you tell me how much water saves you?
one drop? one Gallon? an ocean full?
You can't answer this, no one ever has.
I can tell you just one drop of blood can save your soul.
Jesus paid the price, all one needs is to believe, do you?
Once again, the Holy Bible never tells us Water baptism saves us.
That's an easy question.

No, water does not save you; however by that same line of literal reasoning, blood will not save anyone either.

It is the waters of baptism unto repentance which can save you. Likewise, it is the blood of Christ being spilt on our behalf, which saves us from physical death, and allows for us to be saved from spiritual death as well.


But then, you likewise believe in ordinances done only by someone with the authority to do them, has the power to save people as well; so I don't understand your objection.

[Billyray]

It is the waters of baptism unto repentance which can save you.

in other words works are what saves you. Is that what you really believe?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by BigJulie
RealFake, you seem to be missing the point that AFTER the gentiles had received a witness of the Holy Ghost, they were then baptized by water.


Sure. Just like most Christians. But the queston is whether or not baptism contributes for salvation. What say you?


Please do show where most Christians received the Holy Ghost before water baptism in the Biblical NT.

[Billyray]

Please do show where most Christians received the Holy Ghost before water baptism in the Biblical NT.
Acts 10
44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. 45 The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on Gentiles. 46 For they heard them speaking in tongues[b] and praising God.

Then Peter said, 47 “Surely no one can stand in the way of their being baptized with water. They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.” 48 So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked Peter to stay with them for a few days.

These guys recieved the Holy Spirit prior to baptism.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by BigJulie
RealFake, you seem to be missing the point that AFTER the gentiles had received a witness of the Holy Ghost, they were then baptized by water.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Billyray
Sure. Just like most Christians. But the queston is whether or not baptism contributes for salvation. What say you?



dberrie---Please do show where most Christians received the Holy Ghost before water baptism in the Biblical NT.



Acts 10
44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. 45 The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on Gentiles. 46 For they heard them speaking in tongues[b] and praising God.

Then Peter said, 47 “Surely no one can stand in the way of their being baptized with water. They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.” 48 So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked Peter to stay with them for a few days.

These guys recieved the Holy Spirit prior to baptism.

Quoting the only place in the entire NT where the order of events happened in this way does not validate your statement that "most Christians" receive it such a manner.

And that order of events for a good reason--it was a witness to Peter that God had accepted the Gentiles for salvation also.

[Billyray]

Quoting the only place in the entire NT where the order of events happened in this way does not validate your statement that "most Christians" receive it such a manner.


It just shows that your belief that a person has to be baptized prior to receiving the Holy Spirit is false. This is what I mean that you have to look at ALL of the NT verses to come up with theology rather than being a cherry picker like you.

[RealFakeHair]

That's an easy question.

No, water does not save you; however by that same line of literal reasoning, blood will not save anyone either.

It is the waters of baptism unto repentance which can save you. Likewise, it is the blood of Christ being spilt on our behalf, which saves us from physical death, and allows for us to be saved from spiritual death as well.


But then, you likewise believe in ordinances done only by someone with the authority to do them, has the power to save people as well; so I don't understand your objection.

Okay so at least we got the water out of the way, so I guess that is progress.

As Peter said, "repent and be baptized."
I we see repentence comes before baptism.
"baptize in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."
So we agree water isn't mention here, thus if we can see from other scripture that the when water is asks for. Act 10:47. Peter asks, "Can any man forbid water that these should not be baptized which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
Notice here in the next verse, notice it carefully.
Act 10:48, And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord.
Did you notice, Peter did not say for the remission of sin?
Why? Because their sins had already been forgiven of them, they had recieved the Holy Ghost. Amen, and Amen.

[BigJulie]

Okay so at least we got the water out of the way, so I guess that is progress.

As Peter said, "repent and be baptized."
I we see repentence comes before baptism.
"baptize in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."
So we agree water isn't mention here, thus if we can see from other scripture that the when water is asks for. Act 10:47. Peter asks, "Can any man forbid water that these should not be baptized which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
Notice here in the next verse, notice it carefully.
Act 10:48, And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord.
Did you notice, Peter did not say for the remission of sin?
Why? Because their sins had already been forgiven of them, they had recieved the Holy Ghost. Amen, and Amen.

Peter taught that baptism is for the remission of sins. I guess you should have told him that he would need to repeat that teaching every time he spoke of baptism. ;)

[Billyray]

Peter taught that baptism is for the remission of sins. I guess you should have told him that he would need to repeat that teaching every time he spoke of baptism.

So without the work of baptism a person can't be saved. BigJ just be honest with us and tell us that you believe that you work your way to heaven.

[theway]

Okay so at least we got the water out of the way, so I guess that is progress.

As Peter said, "repent and be baptized."
I we see repentence comes before baptism.
"baptize in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."
So we agree water isn't mention here, thus if we can see from other scripture that the when water is asks for. Act 10:47. Peter asks, "Can any man forbid water that these should not be baptized which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
Notice here in the next verse, notice it carefully.
Act 10:48, And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord.
Did you notice, Peter did not say for the remission of sin?
Why? Because their sins had already been forgiven of them, they had recieved the Holy Ghost. Amen, and Amen.Really... that's it??? you would base your whole hope of salvation on the absence of one word, in one verse???
How weak of an argument is that. In any case, here is another.

"Then Peter said to them, REPENT, and let every one of you be BAPTISED IN THE NAME OF JESUS CHRIST FOR THE REMISSION OF SINS, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." Acts 2:38

I guess because Peter didn't say "faith" here, that it must not be required... right?

[RealFakeHair]

Peter taught that baptism is for the remission of sins. I guess you should have told him that he would need to repeat that teaching every time he spoke of baptism. ;)

The reason why Peter, omitted, (remisson of sins?)
If as in mormon teaching there is a ritural of steps to become a memeber of the LDS inc. Then Peter goofed here, didn't he?:confused:

[Billyray]

Really that's it??? you would base your whole hope of salvation on the absence of one word, in one verse???


There are lots of verses in the NT that clearly tell us that we are saved when we place our faith in Christ and NOT by works that we do.

[theway]

The reason why Peter, omitted, (remisson of sins?)
If as in mormon teaching there is a ritural of steps to become a memeber of the LDS inc. Then Peter goofed here, didn't he?:confused:

No... he didn't goof, the way is simple, just not written out every single time.

1. Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ
2. Repentance
3. Baptism by water
4. Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.
5. Give your all
6. Endure to the end.

[theway]

There are lots of verses in the NT that clearly tell us that we are saved when we place our faith in Christ and NOT by works that we do.

Riddle me this…
[true senerio]
A couple who are living together unmarried (doing things worthy of being called fornicators) say they don’t need a piece of paper to justify their love and commitment for each other.
Are they correct in their ***umption?

Now these same two people go to a Christian revival and are converted having placed their faith in Christ, yet they go home and continue as they had before.
Will God save fornicators in the Kingdom of Heaven?
Are they saved based on the Bible?

Now they go out and get an authorized piece of paper from an authorised non-Christian judge which said that they went through the ordinance of marriage.
Are they now able to be saved?
Did the Paper save them?
Did the ordinance save them?
What saved them?

[Billyray]

No... he didn't goof, the way is simple, just not written out every single time.

1. Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ
2. Repentance
3. Baptism by water
4. Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.
5. Give your all
6. Endure to the end.

Why did the guys in Acts 10 get the Holy Spirit prior to baptism? So much for your cookie cutter religion.

[RealFakeHair]

No... he didn't goof, the way is simple, just not written out every single time.

1. Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ
2. Repentance
3. Baptism by water
4. Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.
5. Give your all
6. Endure to the end.

My guess this is the 6 step process towards mormon next step to all the other steps to the first step on the many more steps of the first step on towards the mormon exaltationaly step process?

Let me give you the Christian step found in the Holy Bible summed up in one step verse, John 3:16. The first and the last step to exaltaion.

[theway]

Why did the guys in Acts 10 get the Holy Spirit prior to baptism? So much for your cookie cutter religion.

The Holy Spirit has to come to you in some degree before you are baptised, else how do you know what you are doing is of God?
Silly question.

[RealFakeHair]

The Holy Spirit has to come to you in some degree before you are baptised, else how do you know what you are doing is of God?
Silly question.

I'll go first, hum, at this time, yesterday, today or tomorrow?
Is there a degree like 1% to 99%, or is it 100% full?
I think I'll let theyway answer that.:confused:

[Billyray]

The Holy Spirit has to come to you in some degree before you are baptised, else how do you know what you are doing is of God?
Silly question.
Acts 10
44*While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. 45*The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on Gentiles. 46*For they heard them speaking in tongues[b] and praising God.


They received the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Nice try.

[RealFakeHair]

Acts 10
44*While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. 45*The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on Gentiles. 46*For they heard them speaking in tongues[b] and praising God.


They received the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Nice try.

Well at lease they had 1% or better.
I am still waiting on theway

[BigJulie]

Well at lease they had 1% or better.
I am still waiting on theway

And yet Peter still argued for their baptism. :eek:

[RealFakeHair]

And yet Peter still argued for their baptism. :eek:

Baptism, Baptism, Baptism, How many times do we agree on baptism?
We agree on the act of baptism, we disagree it is necessary for Salvation.
Mormonism is, the mormon jesus plus+
The Chirstian is Jesus, believe.

[Billyray]

And yet Peter still argued for their baptism.

We are commanded to be baptized BigJ. But does the work of baptism save you, that is what we seem to be arguing over.

BTW since Christians believe in baptism do you believe that those Christians who are baptized will be exalted?

[RealFakeHair]

We are commanded to be baptized BigJ. But does the work of baptism save you, that is what we seem to be arguing over.

BTW since Christians believe in baptism do you believe that those Christians who are baptized will be exalted?

Exaltation, and me. I think I'll write another story here.

[Billyray]

Exaltation, and me. I think I'll write another story here.

LDS have 6 different definitions for the word salvation so in order to prevent confusion I compare the best that Christianity has to offer which is salvation and compare that to the best that Mormonism has to offer which is exaltation.

[theway]

Acts 10
44*While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. 45*The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on Gentiles. 46*For they heard them speaking in tongues[b] and praising God.


They received the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Nice try.And???... How does that change anything I said?

[Billyray]

And???... How does that change anything I said?

Here is your post


The Holy Spirit has to come to you in some degree before you are baptised, else how do you know what you are doing is of God?
Silly question.
You are trying to say that those in Acts 10 didn't really receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

[dberrie2000]

It just shows that your belief that a person has to be baptized prior to receiving the Holy Spirit is false.

Cite, please. I have never made any such statement. I did make the statement that the Holy Ghost and water baptism are ***ociated with one another in the Biblical NT. Acts10 is no exception.


This is what I mean that you have to look at ALL of the NT verses to come up with theology rather than being a cherry picker like you.

No matter how many verses one were to look at--the Biblical text taught repentance and water baptism for the remission of sins.

God's grace for our obedience.

[James Banta]

Cite, please. I have never made any such statement. I did make the statement that the Holy Ghost and water baptism are ***ociated with one another in the Biblical NT. Acts10 is no exception.



No matter how many verses one were to look at--the Biblical text taught repentance and water baptism for the remission of sins.

God's grace for our obedience.

After all you have seen in way of grace you still believe it can be earned though obedience.. How is a person obedient? Isn't it by Doing the commandments? Doing! Works! You are teaching that God's grace come to mankind by works..

Jesus taught that by believing in Him we don't perish but have everlasting life. Does that mean that only those that believe will be resurrected? NO!! It means that those who believe have eternal life and not judgment.. Paul said it with even more clarity He said that God gives His grace because of Faith and NOT OF WORKS.. John tells us that those that believe HAVE eternal life.. Yes James teaches the CHURCH to get off their backsides and be the hands of God in the world. He tells us that we can know if a person in in Jesus by the way they treat their fellowman.. These people had already accepted Jesus as Savior and Lord. James told them to show HIM their faith.. God knows the heart James and all mortal peoples can only see the result of that faith.. IHS jim

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000
Cite, please. I have never made any such statement. I did make the statement that the Holy Ghost and water baptism are ***ociated with one another in the Biblical NT. Acts10 is no exception.


No matter how many verses one were to look at--the Biblical text taught repentance and water baptism for the remission of sins.

God's grace for our obedience.




After all you have seen in way of grace you still believe it can be earned though obedience..


Acts2:38--"Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.'

Are you making the claim that Peter's command to repent and be baptized(our obedience) for the remission of sins(His grace) is earning grace?

[theway]

Here is your post


You are trying to say that those in Acts 10 didn't really receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.Sorry, still not seeing how that changes anything I said.

[Billyray]

Sorry, still not seeing how that changes anything I said.

Did those in Acts 10 receive the gift of the Holy Ghost like those who received the gift of the Holy Ghost after LDS baptism?

[Billyray]

Are you making the claim that Peter's command to repent and be baptized(our obedience) for the remission of sins(His grace) is earning grace?
it you believe that works are required for exaltation and these works contribute for exaltation this is a works based theology, which of course you believe.

[dberrie2000]

Did those in Acts 10 receive the gift of the Holy Ghost like those who received the gift of the Holy Ghost after LDS baptism?

Whether they did or did not--what has that to do with the fact that all were commanded to repent and be baptized for the remission of sins?

Do you believe that Acts 10 somehow covers, cancels, annuls, rubs out, or deletes the fact that both during the time of Christ's mortal ministry, and following His death--repentance and water baptism was taught for the remission of sins?

Billyray--you're toast. Finished. That alone would dispell any belief that the faith that is alone for salvation could even possibly be true. Period.

And running to cover that fact with other scriptures will not make your point.
It's a weak argument.

[Billyray]

Whether they did or did not--what has that to do with the fact that all were commanded to repent and be baptized for the remission of sins?


We are commanded to turn away from our old ways (repent) and turn to Christ and place our faith in him for salvation. We are justified of our sins when we place our faith in Christ. Baptism is an outward sign of our inward condition.

[Billyray]

Billyray--you're toast. Finished.

I am toast? Really? In what way?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Billyray
Did those in Acts 10 receive the gift of the Holy Ghost like those who received the gift of the Holy Ghost after LDS baptism?



dberrie----Whether they did or did not--what has that to do with the fact that all were commanded to repent and be baptized for the remission of sins?

Do you believe that Acts 10 somehow covers, cancels, annuls, rubs out, or deletes the fact that both during the time of Christ's mortal ministry, and following His death--repentance and water baptism was taught for the remission of sins?

Billyray--you're toast. Finished. That alone would dispell any belief that the faith that is alone for salvation could even possibly be true. Period.

And running to cover that fact with other scriptures will not make your point.
It's a weak argument.



I am toast? Really? In what way?

In the way of the scriptures teaching repentance and water baptism for the remission of sins--anathema to the faith that is alone for salvation.

[James Banta]

Acts2:38--"Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.'

Are you making the claim that Peter's command to repent and be baptized(our obedience) for the remission of sins(His grace) is earning grace?

It will do no good for you to tell me that you believe baptism is the instrument that God used to cleanse a person of sin.. I am LOCKED into believing the Bible in it's clear statement that without the shedding of blood there in NO REMISSION (Hebrews 9:22).. Since the LDS interpretation of these two p***age conflict one of those interpretations must be in error..

Since the interpretation is so very clear in Hebrews 9:22 the interpretation you are holding that the waters of baptism is the means whereby sins are cleansed must be in error.. I believe that baptism is a commandment of Jesus and we should obey, I have.. But because BLOOD is required for sin to be forgiven I can't believe that this p***age you LOVE so much proves that water is the way to forgiveness. An interpretation that say that we should be baptized BECAUSE our sins have been forgiven make the verse consistent with the verses that teach the blood of Jesus as the method by which sin is atoned.. Your doctrine need to provide a path that allows ALL p***ages of the Bible to be true not just the ones you like.. IHS jim

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000
Acts2:38--"Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.'

Are you making the claim that Peter's command to repent and be baptized(our obedience) for the remission of sins(His grace) is earning grace?




It will do no good for you to tell me that you believe baptism is the instrument that God used to cleanse a person of sin.. I am LOCKED into believing the Bible in it's clear statement that without the shedding of blood there in NO REMISSION (Hebrews 9:22).. Since the LDS interpretation of these two p***age conflict one of those interpretations must be in error..

No conflict nor error whatsoever.

The Atonement of Jesus Christ made the forgiveness of sins possible for all men. His shed Blood atoned for the sins of the whole world. But that did not forgive anyone's sins--it only made the forgiveness of sins possible for all men--upon conditions of obedience to the Redeemer--Jesus Christ.

The actual personal reception of the forgiveness of sins was taught as repentance and water baptism for the remission of sins.

Acts2:38--"Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."

That is why those who walk in that light receive of the Blood of Christ that cleanseth them from sin:


1 John1:7--"But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin."

But that on conditions of them walking in the light.

Which is what the faith alone call a works based theology--right?

[Billyray]

1 John1:7--"But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin."

But that on conditions of them walking in the light.

What is walking in the light according to DB?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

1 John1:7--"But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin."
But that on conditions of them walking in the light.



What is walking in the light according to DB?


Since the scripture identifies that grace as the Blood of Christ unto the cleansing of sins, one could identify that with specific scriptures, IE--


Acts2:38--"Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."

[James Banta]

Since the scripture identifies that grace as the Blood of Christ unto the cleansing of sins, one could identify that with specific scriptures, IE--


Acts2:38--"Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."

This has been explained to you again and again and you still go back to a interpretation that doesn't fit in the whole of the Bible.. Until you are ready to explain how it your interpretation works with p***ages such as:


Gal 2:16
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Remember that any commandment given by Jesus is the LAW of God:


Matthew 5:48
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

If you hold that we are saved by grace through obedience then OBEY that commandment before you come and tell us that we are the sinners to believe that we are imputed with the righteousness of Jesus. With the authority of Romans 3:23 I can say that you as it is will all men are a sinner and bound to hell if you do not submit to the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus and stop trying to produce your own.. IHS jim

[Billyray]

Since the scripture identifies that grace as the Blood of Christ unto the cleansing of sins, one could identify that with specific scriptures, IE--


Acts2:38--"Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."

So once a person is saved that is what you believe is meant by walking in the light?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

1 John1:7--"But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin."

But that on condition of them walking in the light.



Originally Posted by Billyray
What is walking in the light according to DB?



dberrie---Since the scripture identifies that grace as the Blood of Christ unto the cleansing of sins, one could identify that with specific scriptures, IE--


Acts2:38--"Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."



......that is what you believe is meant by walking in the light?

That is an example of walking in the light of Christ--and an example where God's grace goes to those who obey Him.

[Billyray]

Acts2:38--"Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."

What does justification by faith mean to you?

[dberrie2000]

What does justification by faith mean to you?

It means the same thing James explained it meant:



James2:21-26--"Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also."


Every way the faith alone wrest with the faith alone theology--the scriptures testify against them.

[Billyray]

It means the same thing James explained it meant:
.

You didn't really answer my question. What does justification by faith mean to you?

Note it isn't one of your 6 or so cherry picked verses so this might be stretching you a little bit.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Billyray
What does justification by faith mean to you?




dberrie----It means the same thing James explained it meant:



James2:21-26--"Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also."

Every way the faith alone wrest with the faith alone theology--the scriptures testify against them.



You didn't really answer my question. What does justification by faith mean to you?

It means belief and obedience to Jesus Christ--just as James explains, and God giving His grace to those who do so.




Note it isn't one of your 6 or so cherry picked verses so this might be stretching you a little bit.


Just how many Biblical verses do you think it takes to establish a truth?

Do you believe that if I throw in one more verse--the other six will become true?

Six Biblical verses will always add more than your one-liner theology answers.

[Billyray]

It means belief and obedience to Jesus Christ--just as James explains, and God giving His grace to those who do so.

So you believe that justification by faith really means justification by works?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Billyray
What does justification by faith mean to you?




dberrie----It means the same thing James explained it meant:



James2:21-26--"Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also."

Every way the faith alone wrest with the faith alone theology--the scriptures testify against them.




Originally Posted by Billyray
You didn't really answer my question. What does justification by faith mean to you?



dberrie---It means belief and obedience to Jesus Christ--just as James explains, and God giving His grace to those who do so.




So you believe that justification by faith really means justification by works?

Again--I believe it means just what James explains it does--both works and faith cons***ute justification.

What is it about that you do not believe?

Billyray--I know that plays havoc with your theology--but so does the whole of the NT.

[Billyray]

Again--I believe it means just what James explains it does--both works and faith cons***ute justification.

What is it about that you do not believe?

Billyray--I know that plays havoc with your theology--but so does the whole of the NT.
DB you are lost and the fact that you believe that you are saved by works proves this point. You use about 6 cherry picked verses and completely ignore the rest of the NT. What do you do with all of the verses that clearly teach that we are saved by grace through faith and NOT by works?

[alanmolstad]

the water simply shows us physically what has already happened to the person's heart......

Water has no ability to change any person, it just makes us wet.
But the act of getting our skin clean via water is a symbol of the act of God cleaning our hearts.

[RealFakeHair]

the water simply shows us physically what has already happened to the person's heart......

Water has no ability to change any person, it just makes us wet.
But the act of getting our skin clean via water is a symbol of the act of God cleaning our hearts.
With a bar of soap I've seen miracle changes in my cousin Bruce.

[dberrie2000]

DB you are lost and the fact that you believe that you are saved by works proves this point.

Cite, please. Where have I ever claimed I am saved by works? The scriptures bear witness that it is those who obey God--and do His works--which receive of God's saving Grace:


Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

How does that compare to the faith alone theology--which teaches salvation through a faith without works--IE--dead faith saves?


James 2:26--King James Version (KJV)
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.



You use about 6 cherry picked verses and completely ignore the rest of the NT.

And where do we find the Biblical doctrine that one is saved through faith without works?


2 Thessalonians 1:7-9---King James Version (KJV)
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;


What do you do with all of the verses that clearly teach that we are saved by grace through faith and NOT by works?

Is that reference to faith above--a reference to dead faith?

[alanmolstad]

not sure Mr Billy keeps track of topics here lately....

[dberrie2000]

not sure Mr Billy keeps track of topics here lately....

His post indicates he tracks them pretty closely--even numbering them:


Originally Posted by Billyray View PostDB you are lost and the fact that you believe that you are saved by works proves this point. You use about 6 cherry picked verses and completely ignore the rest of the NT.

Maybe you could help him out:

And where do we find the Biblical doctrine that one is saved through faith without works?


2 Thessalonians 1:7-9---King James Version (KJV)
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

[alanmolstad]

His post indicates he tracks them pretty closely--even numbering them:





I dont know...we shall have to see I guess.

I do know that I have not seen his name pop up for a long-long time...so Im guessing he no longer has his email connected to this forum

[dberrie2000]

I dont know...we shall have to see I guess.

I do know that I have not seen his name pop up for a long-long time...so Im guessing he no longer has his email connected to this forum

Then maybe you could help Billyray out:

And where do we find the Biblical doctrine that one is saved through faith without works?


2 Thessalonians 1:7-9---King James Version (KJV)
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad View PostI dont know...we shall have to see I guess.

I do know that I have not seen his name pop up for a long-long time...so Im guessing he no longer has his email connected to this forum

Then maybe you could help Billyray out:

And where do we find the Biblical doctrine that one is saved through faith without works?

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9---King James Version (KJV)
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his powe

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad View PostI dont know...we shall have to see I guess.

I do know that I have not seen his name pop up for a long-long time...so Im guessing he no longer has his email connected to this forum

Then maybe you could help Billyray out:

And where do we find the Biblical doctrine that one is saved through faith without works?

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9---King James Version (KJV)
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power

Bump for Alan

[dberrie2000]

[QUOTE=dberrie2000;161987]Then maybe you could help Billyray out:

And where do we find the Biblical doctrine that one is saved through faith without works?

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9---King James Version (KJV)
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power

Bump for Alan

[Apologette]

***us3:5--"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;"


There has been some discussion between the relationship between water baptism and salvation. Could water baptism be connected to "regeneration" and not be salvational?


http://www.truthmagazine.com/archives/volume34/GOT034331.html


What is the "washing of regeneration" by which he saved us? We have collected the comments of various outstanding Bible scholars from a diversity of religious groups. These men often differ on some of the details in this p***age, but they all agree as to what the "washing of regeneration" is. We do not cite them as our authority, but ask that you weigh their arguments carefully.

John Wesley: "Sanctification, expressed by the laver of regeneration (that is, baptism, the thing signified, as well as the outward sign), and the renewal of the Holy Ghost, which purifies the soul, as water cleanses the body, and renews it in the whole image of God" (One Volume New Testament Commentary, Wesley, Clarke, Henry, et. al.).


Cambridge Greek Testament (J.H. Bernard): "That the 'washing of regeneration' is the Water of Baptism is undoubted; see Eph. 5:26 . . . It is the instrument (dia) of salvation (cp. 1 Pet. 3:21 . . . ), the means, that is, through which we are placed in a 'state of salvation,' in union with the mystical Body of Christ; cp. Gal. 3:27. . ."

The New Bible Commentary (A.M. Stibbs): "In status this salvation is made ours through the outward seal of baptism; in vital experience it comes through the inner quickening by the Spirit."

The Pulpit Commentary (A.C. Hervey): "Here we have the means through or by which God's mercy saves us . . . (regeneration) therefore, very fitly describes the new birth in holy baptism, when the believer is put into possession of a new spiritual life, a new nature, and a new inheritance of glory. And the laver of baptism is called 'laver of regeneration,' because it is the ordained means by or through which regeneration is obtained."

William Hendriksen: "It is clear from such p***ages as John 3:3,5 and especially Ephesians 5:26 (cf. Heb. 10:22) that this 'washing of regeneration and renewing' stand in some relation to the rite of baptism. Undoubtedly, also here in ***us 3:5 there is an implied reference to this sacrament" (New Testament Commentary).

Albert Barnes: "The word (washing) itself would naturally be understood as referring to baptism (comp. Notes on Acts 22:16), which was regarded as the emblem of washing away sins, or of cleansing from them" (Barnes' Notes on the New Testament).

Henry Alford: "Observe, there is here no figure: the words are literal: Baptism is taken as in all its completion, the outward visible sign accompanied by the inward spiritual grace; and as thus complete, it not only represents, but is the new birth." At Hebrews 10:22, Alford says the clause having our body washed with pure water "refers directly to Christian baptism" and cites washing of water (Eph. 5:26) and washing of regeneration (***. 3:5) as "****ogous expressions" (The Greek New Testament).

James Macknight: "Through the bath of regeneration: through baptism; called 'the bath of regeneration,' not because any change in the nature of the baptized person is produced by baptism, but because it is an emblem of the purification of his soul from sin. . . " (Apostolical Epistles).

G.R. Beasley-Murray: Beasley-Murray said in 1962 "of all the commentators who have written on these Epistles [1 Timothy, 2 Timothy, ***us], I can find but one who denies" that this refers to baptism. He says, "All things considered, it requires a real hardiness of spirit to refuse the weight of this evidence. . . " (Baptism, pp. 209, 210). I have come across one additional more recent commentator who denies that baptism is under consideration.

What is the "washing of regeneration" by which he saved us? These commentators all agree and most of them cite biblical evidence to back up their position. The "washing of regeneration" in ***us 3:5 is baptism. In the chart below we have replaced the phrase "washing of regeneration" with the word baptism. This is proper since this is the meaning of the phrase.



Where does this leave faith alone theology? They carefully eliminate water baptism from anything salvational. But yet, if the testimonies of Christ, the Early Church Fathers, and the scholars are true--then it is the quite attached to regeneration.

Unless "baptism" is coupled with a proper faith, you might as well be undergoing a Hindu cleasing ceremony.

[dberrie2000]

***us3:5--"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;"

There has been some discussion between the relationship between water baptism and salvation. Could water baptism be connected to "regeneration" and not be salvational?

http://www.truthmagazine.com/archives/volume34/GOT034331.html

What is the "washing of regeneration" by which he saved us? We have collected the comments of various outstanding Bible scholars from a diversity of religious groups. These men often differ on some of the details in this p***age, but they all agree as to what the "washing of regeneration" is. We do not cite them as our authority, but ask that you weigh their arguments carefully.

John Wesley: "Sanctification, expressed by the laver of regeneration (that is, baptism, the thing signified, as well as the outward sign), and the renewal of the Holy Ghost, which purifies the soul, as water cleanses the body, and renews it in the whole image of God" (One Volume New Testament Commentary, Wesley, Clarke, Henry, et. al.).


Cambridge Greek Testament (J.H. Bernard): "That the 'washing of regeneration' is the Water of Baptism is undoubted; see Eph. 5:26 . . . It is the instrument (dia) of salvation (cp. 1 Pet. 3:21 . . . ), the means, that is, through which we are placed in a 'state of salvation,' in union with the mystical Body of Christ; cp. Gal. 3:27. . ."

The New Bible Commentary (A.M. Stibbs): "In status this salvation is made ours through the outward seal of baptism; in vital experience it comes through the inner quickening by the Spirit."

The Pulpit Commentary (A.C. Hervey): "Here we have the means through or by which God's mercy saves us . . . (regeneration) therefore, very fitly describes the new birth in holy baptism, when the believer is put into possession of a new spiritual life, a new nature, and a new inheritance of glory. And the laver of baptism is called 'laver of regeneration,' because it is the ordained means by or through which regeneration is obtained."

William Hendriksen: "It is clear from such p***ages as John 3:3,5 and especially Ephesians 5:26 (cf. Heb. 10:22) that this 'washing of regeneration and renewing' stand in some relation to the rite of baptism. Undoubtedly, also here in ***us 3:5 there is an implied reference to this sacrament" (New Testament Commentary).

Albert Barnes: "The word (washing) itself would naturally be understood as referring to baptism (comp. Notes on Acts 22:16), which was regarded as the emblem of washing away sins, or of cleansing from them" (Barnes' Notes on the New Testament).

Henry Alford: "Observe, there is here no figure: the words are literal: Baptism is taken as in all its completion, the outward visible sign accompanied by the inward spiritual grace; and as thus complete, it not only represents, but is the new birth." At Hebrews 10:22, Alford says the clause having our body washed with pure water "refers directly to Christian baptism" and cites washing of water (Eph. 5:26) and washing of regeneration (***. 3:5) as "****ogous expressions" (The Greek New Testament).

James Macknight: "Through the bath of regeneration: through baptism; called 'the bath of regeneration,' not because any change in the nature of the baptized person is produced by baptism, but because it is an emblem of the purification of his soul from sin. . . " (Apostolical Epistles).

G.R. Beasley-Murray: Beasley-Murray said in 1962 "of all the commentators who have written on these Epistles [1 Timothy, 2 Timothy, ***us], I can find but one who denies" that this refers to baptism. He says, "All things considered, it requires a real hardiness of spirit to refuse the weight of this evidence. . . " (Baptism, pp. 209, 210). I have come across one additional more recent commentator who denies that baptism is under consideration.

What is the "washing of regeneration" by which he saved us? These commentators all agree and most of them cite biblical evidence to back up their position. The "washing of regeneration" in ***us 3:5 is baptism. In the chart below we have replaced the phrase "washing of regeneration" with the word baptism. This is proper since this is the meaning of the phrase.


Where does this leave faith alone theology? They carefully eliminate water baptism from anything salvational. But yet, if the testimonies of Christ, the Early Church Fathers, and the scholars are true--then it is the quite attached to regeneration.


Unless "baptism" is coupled with a proper faith, you might as well be undergoing a Hindu cleasing ceremony.

If water baptism is coupled with regeneration--faith alone theology is false--regardless of how proper one believes faith must be. In fact--it just shows how improper the faith alone faith is.


Mark 16:16---King James Version (KJV)
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be ****ed.