Today I Stand with the Mormons

[Apologette]

I posted this elsewhere, and am putting it up here as well:

I'm wondering when Bill Maher is going to shut up? Who does this fellow think he is? Has Maher read anything about the Nazi regime? How the Jews were eventually considered to be subhuman, fit only for slavery and eventual destruction? Does Maher think Mormons are a fair target because they won't strike back? Shall he make them sew a Mormon symbol on their clothing (as the Jews were made to sew a yellow Star of David on their's) so we can identify those in what Maher called a stu-pid religion for a stu-pid country, America?

In case anyone is wondering what I'm talking about, Bill Maher's comments on Mormonism during his recent TV show were over the line of civility and common decency. Anyone who reads my posts knows that I consider Mormonism to be non-Christian, however I strongly stand for the Mormons' right to believe whatever they want. If I don't, how long will it be before they start dragging Anglicans through the streets and make us wear yellow crosses on our clothing? How long before my grandchildren are taught to snitch on their parents and grandparents if they go to Church? How long before my grandchildren have to wear brown shirts? Today it's the Mormons, and maybe tomorrow the Baptists, or Lutherans, or Methodists.

As many know, Dietrich Bonhoeffer is a man I regard as a 20th century saint. He stood with the Jews when Hitler persecuted them. He helped arrange for some to flee Germany. He led the Confessional Church in Germany, the Church that did not stand with Hitler against the Jews and the Germanization of Christianity. Perhaps what Bonhoeffer had to say in his era is relevant for today:

"Bonhoeffer spelled out his views in an essay called 'The Church and the Jewish Question.' In it, Bonhoeffer said that the church 'has an unconditional obligation to the victims of any ordering of society, even if they do not belong to the Christian community.'"

(from: http://exposingliberallies.blogspot.com/2010/04/meet-dietrich-bonhoeffer.html )

And, so Christians need to speak out, I believe, when any religious group, Mormon, Jehovah's Witness, Unitarian, Bahai, which is not part of our Christian community, becomes a target and is victimized. For anybody who has not seen Maher's episode, here is a link:

http://www.foxnews.com/on-air/on-the-record/2012/06/12/bill-maher-american-exceptionalism-and-america-******-country-according-donald-trump

[Apologette]

Silence in the face of evil is itself evil: God will not hold us guiltless. Not to speak is to speak. Not to act is to act.
Dietrich Bonhoeffer

[RealFakeHair]

I posted this elsewhere, and am putting it up here as well:

I'm wondering when Bill Maher is going to shut up? Who does this fellow think he is? Has Maher read anything about the Nazi regime? How the Jews were eventually considered to be subhuman, fit only for slavery and eventual destruction? Does Maher think Mormons are a fair target because they won't strike back? Shall he make them sew a Mormon symbol on their clothing (as the Jews were made to sew a yellow Star of David on their's) so we can identify those in what Maher called a stu-pid religion for a stu-pid country, America?

In case anyone is wondering what I'm talking about, Bill Maher's comments on Mormonism during his recent TV show were over the line of civility and common decency. Anyone who reads my posts knows that I consider Mormonism to be non-Christian, however I strongly stand for the Mormons' right to believe whatever they want. If I don't, how long will it be before they start dragging Anglicans through the streets and make us wear yellow crosses on our clothing? How long before my grandchildren are taught to snitch on their parents and grandparents if they go to Church? How long before my grandchildren have to wear brown shirts? Today it's the Mormons, and maybe tomorrow the Baptists, or Lutherans, or Methodists.

As many know, Dietrich Bonhoeffer is a man I regard as a 20th century saint. He stood with the Jews when Hitler persecuted them. He helped arrange for some to flee Germany. He led the Confessional Church in Germany, the Church that did not stand with Hitler against the Jews and the Germanization of Christianity. Perhaps what Bonhoeffer had to say in his era is relevant for today:

"Bonhoeffer spelled out his views in an essay called 'The Church and the Jewish Question.' In it, Bonhoeffer said that the church 'has an unconditional obligation to the victims of any ordering of society, even if they do not belong to the Christian community.'"

(from: http://exposingliberallies.blogspot.com/2010/04/meet-dietrich-bonhoeffer.html )

And, so Christians need to speak out, I believe, when any religious group, Mormon, Jehovah's Witness, Unitarian, Bahai, which is not part of our Christian community, becomes a target and is victimized. For anybody who has not seen Maher's episode, here is a link:

http://www.foxnews.com/on-air/on-the-record/2012/06/12/bill-maher-american-exceptionalism-and-america-******-country-according-donald-trump

Just wait until Romney is asks the question about Satan and Jesus being brothers.

[Snow Patrol]

Well, I for one, appreciate the sentiment. Thanks.

In a weird way I kind of hope Bill Maher keeps at it. For he only makes himself look more bigoted and hopefully people see that and in the long run he becomes irrelevant, or should I say more irrelevant than he already is.

[BigJulie]

Thank you Apologette!

[RealFakeHair]

Well, I for one, appreciate the sentiment. Thanks.

In a weird way I kind of hope Bill Maher keeps at it. For he only makes himself look more bigoted and hopefully people see that and in the long run he becomes irrelevant, or should I say more irrelevant than he already is.

The more you have Maher, Matthew, and others of the MSM bringing up mormon doctrine, history and characters the more the American people will reject Romney.
Remember most Americans know almost nothing of the history of mormonism, and could care less, but when it come to picking a President that will change.

[TrueBlue?]

I posted this elsewhere, and am putting it up here as well:

I'm wondering when Bill Maher is going to shut up? Who does this fellow think he is? Has Maher read anything about the Nazi regime? How the Jews were eventually considered to be subhuman, fit only for slavery and eventual destruction? Does Maher think Mormons are a fair target because they won't strike back? Shall he make them sew a Mormon symbol on their clothing (as the Jews were made to sew a yellow Star of David on their's) so we can identify those in what Maher called a stu-pid religion for a stu-pid country, America?

In case anyone is wondering what I'm talking about, Bill Maher's comments on Mormonism during his recent TV show were over the line of civility and common decency. Anyone who reads my posts knows that I consider Mormonism to be non-Christian, however I strongly stand for the Mormons' right to believe whatever they want. If I don't, how long will it be before they start dragging Anglicans through the streets and make us wear yellow crosses on our clothing? How long before my grandchildren are taught to snitch on their parents and grandparents if they go to Church? How long before my grandchildren have to wear brown shirts? Today it's the Mormons, and maybe tomorrow the Baptists, or Lutherans, or Methodists.

As many know, Dietrich Bonhoeffer is a man I regard as a 20th century saint. He stood with the Jews when Hitler persecuted them. He helped arrange for some to flee Germany. He led the Confessional Church in Germany, the Church that did not stand with Hitler against the Jews and the Germanization of Christianity. Perhaps what Bonhoeffer had to say in his era is relevant for today:

"Bonhoeffer spelled out his views in an essay called 'The Church and the Jewish Question.' In it, Bonhoeffer said that the church 'has an unconditional obligation to the victims of any ordering of society, even if they do not belong to the Christian community.'"

(from: http://exposingliberallies.blogspot.com/2010/04/meet-dietrich-bonhoeffer.html )

And, so Christians need to speak out, I believe, when any religious group, Mormon, Jehovah's Witness, Unitarian, Bahai, which is not part of our Christian community, becomes a target and is victimized. For anybody who has not seen Maher's episode, here is a link:

http://www.foxnews.com/on-air/on-the-record/2012/06/12/bill-maher-american-exceptionalism-and-america-******-country-according-donald-trump

Amen! I agree. We must stand for religious freedom.

[BigJulie]

The more you have Maher, Matthew, and others of the MSM bringing up mormon doctrine, history and characters the more the American people will reject Romney.
Remember most Americans know almost nothing of the history of mormonism, and could care less, but when it come to picking a President that will change.

Well then, heaven help us because I don't know if our cons***ution could stand 4 more years of Obama.

Look at what we have today---FLA suing the Federal government. The feds suing Florida. The feds suing Arizona. The congress holding Holder in contempt of court. I don't think I have seen more in-fighting within the government before--even with Watergate.

[TrueBlue?]

The more you have Maher, Matthew, and others of the MSM bringing up mormon doctrine, history and characters the more the American people will reject Romney.
Remember most Americans know almost nothing of the history of mormonism, and could care less, but when it come to picking a President that will change.

Maybe I am wrong, and she can correct me if so, but thankfully Apologette loves mankind more than her disagreements with Mormons. Where as you seem not to care the consequences of such speech from Bill Maher.

Then again I remember pointing out else where how you seem not to care for others if it gets in the way of yourself.

[Billyray]

Well then, heaven help us because I don't know if our cons***ution could stand 4 more years of Obama.


Maybe the guy on the white horse will ride in and save the day?

Google "white horse prophesy"

BTW do you know what the guy on the white horse represents in early Revelation?

[BigJulie]

Maybe the guy on the white horse will ride in and save the day?

Google "white horse prophesy"

BTW do you know what the guy on the white horse represents in early Revelation?

The White Horse prophecy?? Again the church does not see that as doctrine---but go ahead and look at it if you like.

The white horse in revelations? It represents the good overcoming evil--as far as I can tell.

Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him [was] called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

Who sits on the white horse is Christ.

[Billyray]

The White Horse prophecy?? Again the church does not see that as doctrine---but go ahead and look at it if you like.

Do you believe it?



The white horse in revelations? It represents the good overcoming evil--as far as I can tell.

Most would tell you that this is the antichrist.



Billyray
BTW do you know what the guy on the white horse represents in early Revelation?

BJ
Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him [was] called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

Who sits on the white horse is Christ.


Do you consider Rev 19 as EARLY in Revelaton?

And I don't think you believe that the guy on the white horse is Christ in the white horse prophecy do you?

[RealFakeHair]

Maybe I am wrong, and she can correct me if so, but thankfully Apologette loves mankind more than her disagreements with Mormons. Where as you seem not to care the consequences of such speech from Bill Maher.

Then again I remember pointing out else where how you seem not to care for others if it gets in the way of yourself.

Bill Maher is a low life of a being, He hides behind the cloak of intertainment.
Bill does it the liberal way, and that is all there is to it.

Would Romney make a better president that Obama, heck, I'd make a better president than Obama.

I just see no way Romney can do it, and it wont be the EV that stop him.
Romney wont make it to the WH because of the independences. They will hold their nose and vote Obama.
I do take the privilege to change my mind if, first the MSM holds back it's attack on Romney's mormonism, and if the economy get even worse than it is now.

[BigJulie]

Do you believe it?


Most would tell you that this is the antichrist.



Do you consider Rev 19 as EARLY in Revelaton?

And I don't think you believe that the guy on the white horse is Christ in the white horse prophecy do you?

I am not even aware of the white horse prophecy other than a vague idea about it.

Where do you come up with the white horse being the anti-Christ---revelations makes it pretty clear it is Christ in Chapter 19.

[BigJulie]

I am not even aware of the white horse prophecy other than a vague idea about it.

Where do you come up with the white horse being the anti-Christ---revelations makes it pretty clear it is Christ in Chapter 19.

Bump for Billyray. Do you realize this is twice you have brought this up---and then you leave it. Obviously--you have not really read the scriptures regarding this if you think the white horse represents the anti-Christ--as the one who sits on the White Horse is called "the word of God."

[Billyray]

Where do you come up with the white horse being the anti-Christ---revelations makes it pretty clear it is Christ in Chapter 19.

We were talking about early Revelation specifically chapter 6 not chapter 19. This is early on in the tribulation. Christ has not come back yet at this point in time. And the Antichrist tries to mimic Christ hence the white horse. Does the verse below sound like Christ to you? Especially in light of the other horseman all delivery destrustion an misery.

2 And I looked, and behold, ia white horse! And its rider had a bow, and a crown was given to him, and he came out conquering, and to conquer.

[Apologette]

Look, we have deep theological disagreements, but would we have ever seen Jesus turning over a Pharisee or Sadducee or Herodian to the authorities? No, never. He debated them, sometimes there was an exchange of "hard" words, but the Lord told us to pray for those with whom we have disagreements. We certainly don't hand them over to the lions! And as Bonhoeffer points out, to do nothing is to do something.

[Billyray]

Obviously--you have not really read the scriptures regarding this if you think the white horse represents the anti-Christ--as the one who sits on the White Horse is called "the word of God."
Remember we are talking about Revelation 6 here BigJ.

http://www.gotquestions.org/four-horsemen-apocalypse.html


". . .Question: "Who are the four horsemen of the apocalypse?"

Answer: The four horsemen of the Apocalypse are described in Revelation chapter 6, verses 1-8. The four horsemen are symbolic descriptions of different events which will take place in the end times. The first horseman of the Apocalypse is mentioned in Revelation 6:2: “I looked, and there before me was a white horse! Its rider held a bow, and he was given a crown, and he rode out as a conqueror bent on conquest.” This first horseman likely refers to the Antichrist, who will be given authority and will conquer all who oppose him. The antichrist is the false imitator of the true Christ, who will also return on a white horse (Revelation 19:11-16). . .

[Apologette]

Half of my ancestors come from Denmark. When Hitler invaded Denmark, he gathered up the Jews and forced them to sew yellow stars on their clothing so that others would recognize them as Jews. The Danes, a small group of people, were powerless against Hitler - except for one thing. They identified with the Jews, and cut out Jewish Stars of David and sewed them to their clothing as well. So, in the end, Hitler had a little country under his boot, but everybody was wearing a Star of David.

Another one of my ancestors, a Puritan in Colonial M***., stood up for a Quaker who was being attacked by the Puritans as a heretic. In those days, heretics were put in stocks. Or other measures were taken against them. In any case, the Quakers were not exactly tolerated by the Puritans. However, my ancestor became an advocate for one Quaker fellow, and he was spared the wrath of the Puritan rulers. So, I guess this stuff is somewhat in my blood!

If my neighbor is being hurt and abused, I'm being hurt and abused as well. One of my closest friends was a Mormon - she's gone now - but I remember the great times we had debating our differences, but never crossing over to hurting one another. I prayed with her when she was dying. I have no animosity toward Mormons........but, boy, do I disagree with them!

[BigJulie]

Remember we are talking about Revelation 6 here BigJ.

http://www.gotquestions.org/four-horsemen-apocalypse.html

Interesting.

Rev 6:2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

This "gotquestions" you gave is making the ***umption that the horse comes from Satan (the anti-Christ) and yet the first verse of chapter 6 says: And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals.

So, do you think it was the "Lamb" who provided the anti-Christ?

[BigJulie]

Half of my ancestors come from Denmark. When Hitler invaded Denmark, he gathered up the Jews and forced them to sew yellow stars on their clothing so that others would recognize them as Jews. The Danes, a small group of people, were powerless against Hitler - except for one thing. They identified with the Jews, and cut out Jewish Stars of David and sewed them to their clothing as well. So, in the end, Hitler had a little country under his boot, but everybody was wearing a Star of David.

Another one of my ancestors, a Puritan in Colonial M***., stood up for a Quaker who was being attacked by the Puritans as a heretic. In those days, heretics were put in stocks. Or other measures were taken against them. In any case, the Quakers were not exactly tolerated by the Puritans. However, my ancestor became an advocate for one Quaker fellow, and he was spared the wrath of the Puritan rulers. So, I guess this stuff is somewhat in my blood!

If my neighbor is being hurt and abused, I'm being hurt and abused as well. One of my closest friends was a Mormon - she's gone now - but I remember the great times we had debating our differences, but never crossing over to hurting one another. I prayed with her when she was dying. I have no animosity toward Mormons........but, boy, do I disagree with them!

And we disagree with you too ;) but hope no harm comes to you as well.

[Billyray]

It is making the ***umption that the horse comes from Satan (the anti-Christ) and yet the first verse of chapter 6 says: And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals.

So, do you think it was the "Lamb" who provided the anti-Christ?

6 I watched as the Lamb opened the first of the seven seals.

The lamb in this section is Christ.

[BigJulie]

6 I watched as the Lamb opened the first of the seven seals.

This is Christ.

Okay---so it is Christ who opened the seals. and since the white horse entered or was shown after the seal was opened, do you then think it was Christ who provided this anti-Christ?

[Apologette]

And we disagree with you too ;) but hope no harm comes to you as well.

And both groups can stand for good things - for Life, and for the sanc***y of traditional marriage. Who knows what will happen to this country if Obama is in for four more years! We're already half-way Socialist! And Obamacare will break us financially, especially those (like my husband and myself) who are retired. Together we can stand against this stuff, and put our differences to the side (for a while! ;) )

[Billyray]

and since the white horse entered or was shown after the seal was opened, do you then think it was Christ who provided this anti-Christ?
What do you mean by provided and how did you come up with this is then text?

[BigJulie]

And both groups can stand for good things - for Life, and for the sanc***y of traditional marriage. Who knows what will happen to this country if Obama is in for four more years! We're already half-way Socialist! And Obamacare will break us financially, especially those (like my husband and myself) who are retired. Together we can stand against this stuff, and put our differences to the side (for a while! ;) )

If you are retired--QE3 might mean your doom. Those on fixed incomes are really going to hurt if we keep printing money to help the economy. With QE1 and 2...we should have seen record inflation. (Although we are seeing inflation in food and gas prices--commodities.) This did not happen because of the fear of Obamacare on taxes and the financial regulations that are choking the banks. The end result is a lot of money being dumped into stocks. When that money finally breaks lose, it will hurt seniors the most.

As a friend of mine said--my small business will not survive 4 more years of Obama. He stated that if he gets reelected, he will be out of business. Small businesses just cannot keep up with the regulations and proposed taxes. It will be a double whammy---those on fixed incomes will suffer and those who are trying to keep up with taxes of a small business will suffer.

[BigJulie]

What do you mean by provided and how did you come up with this is then text?

The Lamb opened the seal and the four beasts said "come look" and showed the white horse.

So, the Lamb opened the seal to the anti-Christ in your reading...right?

[Billyray]

The Lamb opened the seal and the four beasts said "come look" and showed the white horse.

So, the Lamb opened the seal to the anti-Christ in your reading...right?

God allows him to come forward. Is that what you are asking?

[BigJulie]

God allows him to come forward. Is that what you are asking?

God allowed the white horse to come forward? The Lamb OPENED the seal. How else can you read this other than He did it?

[Billyray]

How else can you read this other than He did it?

God allowed him to come forward at this particular time. Is that what you are asking?

[BigJulie]

God allowed him to come forward at this particular time. Is that what you are asking?

What? It says He opened the seal. Do you have a problem with that? I don't. It means He began this world and this life and all that goes with it---famine, death, hell---but also life and resurrected and conquering those things. Isn't it a loving God who provided the conquerer first?

[Billyray]

It says He opened the seal.

Correct


Do you have a problem with that?

No It says he opened the seal.



It means He began this world and this life and all that goes with it---famine, death, hell---but also life and resurrected and conquering those things. Isn't it a loving God who provided the conquerer first?
I don't follow what you are trying to say here BJ. Rephrase it.

[Apologette]

If you are retired--QE3 might mean your doom. Those on fixed incomes are really going to hurt if we keep printing money to help the economy. With QE1 and 2...we should have seen record inflation. (Although we are seeing inflation in food and gas prices--commodities.) This did not happen because of the fear of Obamacare on taxes and the financial regulations that are choking the banks. The end result is a lot of money being dumped into stocks. When that money finally breaks lose, it will hurt seniors the most.

As a friend of mine said--my small business will not survive 4 more years of Obama. He stated that if he gets reelected, he will be out of business. Small businesses just cannot keep up with the regulations and proposed taxes. It will be a double whammy---those on fixed incomes will suffer and those who are trying to keep up with taxes of a small business will suffer.

I agree. Also, we both need to stand for the integrity and safety of Israel against her enemies.

[BigJulie]

I agree. Also, we both need to stand for the integrity and safety of Israel against her enemies.

Which always makes me wonder why an American Jew would vote for Obama. He has been scary to say the least with Israel.

[BigJulie]

Correct

No It says he opened the seal.


I don't follow what you are trying to say here BJ. Rephrase it.

Good---so as far as you read this scripture, you read it to mean that Christ opened the seal that let out the anti-christ. Right?

As far as rephrasing it---really Billyray? Sometimes I think you stay on here with me because you hope to walk away understanding a few more scriptures.

[Billyray]

If you are retired--QE3 might mean your doom.

Why do you say that?

[Billyray]

Good---so as far as you read this scripture, you read it to mean that Christ opened the seal that let out the anti-christ. Right?

He removed what was restraining him until the proper time. Correct.

[BigJulie]

Why do you say that?

Because with QE1 and QE2, we already have a lot of locked up cash in the system (locked up because companies and banks are not willing to spend it because of the regulations and tax fears.) Hence, a lot of companies have a lot of money they are sitting on.

Ben Bernanke is hinting of QE3--meaning it is not off the table if our economy starts to sink again (which is predicted by many economic forecasters.)

So, add QE3..more cash and then that even increases the amount of M1 out there. When that finally breaks, the result will be record inflation. If you are on a fixed income, inflation is the death of you....meaning your fixed money is worth less and less. It is mean to do to seniors as a way to get out of this huge pile of debt. At some point, in order to get this economy moving, they are going to have to address these choking regulations and taxes. When they do, inflation will hit (they will try hard to reign it in with increasing interest rates if they can---but if global fears stay, then money will continue pouring into the U.S. keeping money cheap---it could spell disaster for those on fixed incomes.)

[BigJulie]

He removed what was restraining him until the proper time. Correct.

Wait---this was the first horse---and you do note that death and famine and hell are already here, right?

[Billyray]

Wait---this was the first horse---and you do note that death and famine and hell are already here, right?

You are not making a lot of sense today BJ. Can you rephase what you are trying to get at?

[Billyray]

So, add QE3..more cash and then that even increases the amount of M1 out there. When that finally breaks, the result will be record inflation.

And with record inflation anticipated don't you think some of these seniors have taken steps to protect their money and perhaps profit from this inflation?

[BigJulie]

You are not making a lot of sense today BJ. Can you rephase what you are trying to get at?

I am not getting at anything. You asked me what I thought the white horse was. I said it is good overcoming evil. You said it was the antichrist---I am trying to figure out how you came up with that based on what the scriptures say. Now you are saying, it will come at the proper time---well, that time was past according to revelations...the first seal was the beginning of time--not the end.

[BigJulie]

And with record inflation anticipated don't you think some of these seniors have taken steps to protect their money and perhaps profit with this inflation?

Buying gold as a hedge against inflation? Wealthy seniors can do that---most not. And so many people are doing this that it has made gold out of reach for most.

Then, there is the worry of another recession---so what is a senior to do in the meantime---how do you plan for both? It is hard to do. We could have a recession followed by huge inflation as seen in the roaring 20's.

[Billyray]

Buying gold as a hedge against inflation? Wealthy seniors can do that---most not? And so many people are doing this that it has made gold out of reach for most.
If you anticipate inflation any commodity should increase in value. Gold is probably the best play but people can use silver, platinum, jewels, or even rental property which generates an income with potential upside appreciation when inflation hits. If you expect something to go up then the current price is not too high and those with any sense will utilize these things to protect their money.

[BigJulie]

If you anticipate inflation any commodity should increase in value. Gold is probably the best play but people can use silver, platinum, jewels, or even rental property which generates an income with potential upside appreciation when inflation hits. If you expect something to go up then the current price is not too high and those with any sense will utilize these things to protect their money.

Not all are wealthy enough to do that Billyray. Are you really that callous to seniors? We should be responsible with our wants and our debts for their sakes and our children's sakes.

[Billyray]

Now you are saying, it will come at the proper time---well, that time was past according to revelations...the first seal was the beginning of time--not the end.
Again I have no idea what you are talking about. Don't you believe that there will be an antiChrist that comes on the scene prior to the second coming of Christ?

[Apologette]

Buying gold as a hedge against inflation? Wealthy seniors can do that---most not. And so many people are doing this that it has made gold out of reach for most.

Then, there is the worry of another recession---so what is a senior to do in the meantime---how do you plan for both? It is hard to do. We could have a recession followed by huge inflation as seen in the roaring 20's.

This is why we're growing our own food here. We can eat squash and chilies!

[BigJulie]

Again I have no idea what you are talking about. Don't you believe that there will be an antiChrist that comes on the scene prior to the second coming of Christ?

Yes, but I don't see anywhere that this is the white horse. It does not make sense in my reading of Revelations.

Actually, I think there will be many anti-Christs, but one main one. I think Hitler was an anti-christ. He promised 1000 years of peace and car in every garage and yet brought war and destruction instead.

[Billyray]

Not all are wealthy enough to do that Billyray.

A silver coin today is about $30. How wealthy do you have to be to buy some gold and silver. You can even buy gold and silver ETF's as a hedge.

[BigJulie]

This is why we're growing our own food here. We can eat squash and chilies!

That is a good idea. My suggestion is to get your debts under control, get a food supply, and grow your own. Then regardless of deflation or inflation, you are ready.

[BigJulie]

A silver coin today is about $30. How wealthy do you have to be to buy some gold and silver. You can even buy gold and silver ETF's as a hedge.

My mother-in-law lives out of her garden. She does not have enough money to buy silver. She has very little. We have told her that we cannot afford two households so she knows if she cannot make it on her limited income, it is time to come live with us. I am very impressed with how well she does. But, Billyray, you obviously are out of touch with what it means to be very poor. (And yet, I suspect you live on government help right now yourself.)

[BigJulie]

So--still trying to figure out how you have the white horse as the antichrist.

[Billyray]

So--still trying to figure out how you have the white horse as the antichrist.

What part don't you understand?

[BigJulie]

What part don't you understand?

I have read up that some have argued that it is that anti-christ, but if you go to Wiki---you will see a whole argument against that thought.

[Billyray]

(And yet, I suspect you live on government help right now yourself.)
You are wrong on this one just like you are wrong with just about everything you say. More proof that your "discernment" or your "feelings" are leading you astray.

[Billyray]

My mother-in-law lives out of her garden. She does not have enough money to buy silver.
Perhaps you could buy some for her. Hey that is a thought.

[Billyray]

I have read up that some have argued that it is that anti-christ, but if you go to Wiki---you will see a whole argument against that thought.

I don't understand what part you are haviing difficulty with. Don't you believe that a man who is the antichrist will come on the scene prior to the second coming of Christ?

[BigJulie]

Perhaps you could buy some for her. Hey that is a thought.

Or just take her in to live with us---another thought.

[BigJulie]

I don't understand what part you are haviing difficulty with. Don't you believe that a man who is the antichrist will come on the scene prior to the second coming of Christ?

Your changing subjects again Billyray. Which do you want to discuss--the white horse in Revelations 6 or the ant-christ? What I note is usually, when you dont like the way a thread is going, you like to change the subject. Are you uncomfortable discussing your lack of knowledge regarding Revelations 6 so would you prefer to change the subject?

[Billyray]

Or just take her in to live with us---another thought.

Or perhaps you could do both.

[Billyray]

Your changing subjects again Billyray.

Not at all BJ I am trying to figure out what you believe and what part you are having a difficult time understanding.

[Billyray]

Are you uncomfortable discussing your lack of knowledge regarding Revelations 6 so would you prefer to change the subject?

I think that I understand it just fine. What part are you having a difficult time understanding about the guy on the white horse being the antichrist?

[BigJulie]

Not at all BJ I am trying to figure out what you believe and what part you are having a difficult time understanding.

Oh brother.

Here are a couple of your recent posts:


Again I have no idea what you are talking about.


Can you rephase what you are trying to get at?

It appears the one who is having difficulty understanding is you. ;)

[Billyray]

It appears the one who is having difficulty understanding is you.

I don't understand YOU not the Bible. You seem to have a strange view of the tribulation. Do you believe that there will be a tribulation period prior to the second coming of Christ?

[BigJulie]

I don't understand YOU not the Bible. You seem to have a strange view of the tribulation. Do you believe that there will be a tribulation period prior to the second coming of Christ?

What has that got to do with the white horsemen? What do you want to talk about, the white horsemen or the tribulation?

[Billyray]

What has that got to do with the white horsemen? What do you want to talk about, the white horsemen or the tribulation?
They are related don't you get that?

[BigJulie]

They are related don't you get that?

No, I don't get that. You are imposing something that not all scholars agree on. This seems to be your own brand of Billyray religion that you think I should just agree with because it is your opinion.

[Billyray]

No, I don't get that. You are imposing something that not all scholars agree on.

So you don't believe that there is a man who comes on the scene during the tribulation called the antichrist. Is that your position?

[Billyray]

No, I don't get that.

Lets start with Chapter 6. When do these events take place?

[Billyray]

It means He began this world and this life and all that goes with it---famine, death, hell---but also life and resurrected and conquering those things. Isn't it a loving God who provided the conquerer first?

What did you mean by this?

[Apologette]

Which always makes me wonder why an American Jew would vote for Obama. He has been scary to say the least with Israel.

Well, my Mormon friend always said this, "the true believing Jews all live in Israel." Of course, I know that's not exactly true, but many called Jews in our country are really only cultural Jews and are sold out to liberalism.

[Apologette]

That is a good idea. My suggestion is to get your debts under control, get a food supply, and grow your own. Then regardless of deflation or inflation, you are ready.

We have no debts - and rarely use a credit card. I agree, no debt is a primary thing to do. It's the inflation - food, utilities, gas etc., which eat into your income. But, we live simply - almost like Mennonites!

Silver is very volatile. It goes up and down - and even gold is coming down now. It might just come down to living off the land, our own crops, and becoming self-sufficient. We know many others who are committed to this type of lifestyle if the whole thing comes tumbling down....and it just might.

Our motto is "Reduce Your Needs."

We are basically post-tribbers - believing that there will be a grave time of tribulation and persecution just prior to the Second Coming. We do not believe Christians will miss this by some Rapture. Jesus taught the opposite in Matthew 24.

[Billyray]

We are basically post-tribbers - believing that there will be a grave time of tribulation and persecution just prior to the Second Coming. We do not believe Christians will miss this by some Rapture. Jesus taught the opposite in Matthew 24.

I don't think BJ knows what the tribulation is from a Christian point of view.

[TrueBlue?]

And both groups can stand for good things - for Life, and for the sanc***y of traditional marriage. Who knows what will happen to this country if Obama is in for four more years! We're already half-way Socialist! And Obamacare will break us financially, especially those (like my husband and myself) who are retired. Together we can stand against this stuff, and put our differences to the side (for a while! ;) )

I agree. I ***ure you, that if you were to vote for Romney, it does not mean in any shape or form it means a vote for LDS. A vote for Romney is a vote for values we agree on, and a vote against Obama. Like Rick Santorum said the other day. Nobody was for Rick Santorum than was Rick Santorum and he's for Romney.

[Apologette]

I agree. I ***ure you, that if you were to vote for Romney, it does not mean in any shape or form it means a vote for LDS. A vote for Romney is a vote for values we agree on, and a vote against Obama. Like Rick Santorum said the other day. Nobody was for Rick Santorum than was Rick Santorum and he's for Romney.

I liked Santorum. Think he made a few mistakes, especially when speaking of birth control. And then they asked Romney the same thing, and he was smart about it - saying that that wasn't up for discussion.

I'll probably vote for Romney, since not to is a vote for Obama. Our whole county, however is very Democrat - but the State can go either way.

[Apologette]

I don't think BJ knows what the tribulation is from a Christian point of view.

I don't think they have an end-time eschatology that has been worked through.

[Billyray]

I don't think they have an end-time eschatology that has been worked through.

Thinking back when I was LDS it seems like the only thing they really taught was that things will get really bad then Christ comes back. They have no idea what pre trib, mid trib, or post trib means but if we were to label them they would be post trib. I think this explains there focus on survival and food supply because they expect to go through the tribulation, even though they don't really understand what the tribulation is.

[BigJulie]

I don't think they have an end-time eschatology that has been worked through.

I personally don't think the white horse is speaking of the "end-time." I got what you were referring to.

This is not LDS teaching or anything else. This is my own reading of Revelations and what makes sense to me and what makes sense to me is that it is not speaking of the "end-times' but rather the course of the earth as a whole---from beginning to end.

[Billyray]

This is not LDS teaching or anything else. This is my own reading of Revelations and what makes sense to me and what makes sense to me is that it is not speaking of the "end-times' but rather the course of the earth as a whole---from beginning to end.

So you believe that the book of Revelation is from Adam through end times? How did you come up with that?

[BigJulie]

So you believe that the book of Revelation is from Adam through end times? How did you come up with that?

Not from Adam to the end times---from the beginning, before the earth until after the earth--the whole thing.

If you read it with that understanding, it makes a lot of sense.

[James Banta]

Not from Adam to the end times---from the beginning, before the earth until after the earth--the whole thing.

If you read it with that understanding, it makes a lot of sense.

If you read the context of the p***age on the seals the LDS interpretation makes no sense at all.. IHS jim

[Apologette]

I personally don't think the white horse is speaking of the "end-time." I got what you were referring to.

This is not LDS teaching or anything else. This is my own reading of Revelations and what makes sense to me and what makes sense to me is that it is not speaking of the "end-times' but rather the course of the earth as a whole---from beginning to end.

There are many different views on eschatology - amillenial, pre-trib, post-trib, etc. I don't generally argue about any of them. Apocalytical literature is full of all kinds if imagery that can be interpreted in many ways.

[James Banta]

There are many different views on eschatology - amillenial, pre-trib, post-trib, etc. I don't generally argue about any of them. Apocalytical literature is full of all kinds if imagery that can be interpreted in many ways.

Walter Martin had a GREAT way of holding the rapture.. He said he was post-trib and hoped he was wrong.. I guess that is my position as well.. Biggest non issue in the whole of the Church!!! :) IHS jim

[Apologette]

Walter Martin had a GREAT way of holding the rapture.. He said he was post-trib and hoped he was wrong.. I guess that is my position as well.. Biggest non issue in the whole of the Church!!! :) IHS jim

That would be my position as well.

[Russianwolfe]

I am not even aware of the white horse prophecy other than a vague idea about it.

Where do you come up with the white horse being the anti-Christ---revelations makes it pretty clear it is Christ in Chapter 19.

The White Horse Prophecy is a fraud. It was concocted of other prophecies and was never a real or true prophecy.

Marvin

[Billyray]

The White Horse Prophecy is a fraud. It was concocted of other prophecies and was never a real or true prophecy.

Marvin
Now if we can get you to feel the same way about the other LDS prophecies we will have made good progress.

[Russianwolfe]

Now if we can get you to feel the same way about the other LDS prophecies we will have made good progress.

Are you greater than God? Because it was God who witnessed to me that Joseph Smith was a prophet. I know it and God knows it. I would offend God if I denied what I know.

Marvin

[Billyray]

Are you greater than God? Because it was God who witnessed to me that Joseph Smith was a prophet. I know it and God knows it. I would offend God if I denied what I know.

Marvin

Marvin God would never witness to you that Joseph was a prophet because he is a false prophet. Whatever gave you that witness rest ***ured that it wasn't God. Have you ever even considered that a familiar spirit tricked you?

[James Banta]

Marvin God would never witness to you that Joseph was a prophet because he is a false prophet. Whatever gave you that witness rest ***ured that it wasn't God. Have you ever even considered that a familiar spirit tricked you?

Nothing that supernatural is required.. The heart is deceitful enough to tell us what we want to hear whether that be the truth or a lie.. In this case Marvin wanted the BofM to be true and Smith a prophet of God, so his heart gave him the feeling that it is.. Instead of looking inward to find truth we need to examine Jesus the Savior and LORD of all who will come to Him in faith.. They need to stop looking at men (prophets) and look to God, and that God is Jesus the Christ. IHS jim

[Russianwolfe]

Marvin God would never witness to you that Joseph was a prophet because he is a false prophet.


That is your opinon. I have a witness from God that he was a prophet of God. So, unless you are greater than God, you opinion does not mean a thing.



Whatever gave you that witness rest ***ured that it wasn't God.

Again your opinion. You are not me and have no idea what my experience was or has been. So you have no basis for your opinion.



Have you ever even considered that a familiar spirit tricked you?

Can a good tree produce bad fruit? Can a bad tree produce good fruit?

My life's experience leaves me with no room to doubt that my experience is with the true and living God that all the scriptures talk about.

Marvin

[Billyray]

That is your opinon. I have a witness from God that he was a prophet of God. So, unless you are greater than God, you opinion does not mean a thing.


Why do you have to be greater than God in order to recognize false prophecies?

[Billyray]

Can a good tree produce bad fruit? Can a bad tree produce good fruit?


A good tree produces good fruit and a bad tree proces bad fruit. Worshipping strange gods is about as bad a fruit as you can get. So this alone testifies to me that Joseph is a false prophet who has led you astray.

[BigJulie]

A good tree produces good fruit and a bad tree proces bad fruit. Worshipping strange gods is about as bad a fruit as you can get. So this alone testifies to me that Joseph is a false prophet who has led you astray.

Can God take a bad tree and get producing good fruit? That seems to be the question you ignore. And can a good tree produce bad fruit?

[Billyray]

Can God take a bad tree and get producing good fruit? That seems to be the question you ignore.
I haven't ignored this BigJ and I have answered it before but I will answer it again. A bad tree will produce bad fruit. A bad tree is someone who has not been regenerated or born again. When God regenerates a person they are now a good tree and they naturally produce good fruit.

[BigJulie]

I haven't ignored this BigJ and I have answered it before but I will answer it again. A bad tree will produce bad fruit. A bad tree is someone who has not been regenerated or born again. When God regenerates a person they are now a good tree and they naturally produce good fruit.

So, the only thing I can conclude from your comment is that God is ignoring 80% of EV teens.

That said, this is for Apologette (meaning, when I read this article, I thought of you Apologette and some of your comments and I think think you would enjoy this book and it may be worth the read.) Here is from the author:


Economically, the nation is more than $15 trillion in debt and is fast approaching $65 trillion worth of unfunded liabilities – promises the government has made regarding Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid that it can’t afford, Rosenberg says.

Further, America has lost 53 million children to abortion since 1973.

“That’s horrific in its own right – murder in my view,” Rosenberg says. “But on top of that, as if that weren’t bad enough, it’s having an economic affect that liberals didn’t intend, which is if you build a social welfare system in which young people pay the bills of older people through taxes and then you kill 53 million younger workers you are going to have a crisis.”

http://www.wnd.com/2012/06/author-will-america-go-out-with-a-bang/

[Billyray]

So, the only thing I can conclude from your comment is that God is ignoring 80% of EV teens.

Did you bother reading Piper's quote?


FINALLY ALIVE by John Piper
http://cdn.desiringgod.org/pdf/books_bfa/books_bfa.pdf
http://www.desiringgod.org/resource-library/online-books/finally-alive

". . .In the report ***led “Born Again Christians Just as Likely to Divorce as Are Non-Christians,” Barna uses the word evangelicals interchangeably with born again and reports that:
· Only nine percent of evangelicals ***he.
· Of 12,000 teenagers who took the pledge to wait for marriage, 80 percenthad sex outside marriage in the next seven years.
· Twenty-six percent of traditional evangelicals do not think premarital sex is wrong.
· White evangelicals are more likely than Catholics and main-line Protestants to object to having black neighbors.6

In other words, the broadly defined evangelical church as a whole in America and the West in general is apparently not very unlike the world. It goes to church on Sunday and has a veneer of religion, but its religion is basically an add-on to the same way of life the world lives, not a transforming power. A Profound Mistake I want to say loud and clear that when the Barna Group uses the term born again to describe American church-goers whose lives are indistinguishable from the world, and who sin as much as the world, and sacrifice for others as little as the world, and embrace injustice as readily as the world, and covet things as greedily as the world, and enjoy God-ignoring entertainment as enthusiastically as the world—when the term born again is used to describe these professing Christians, the Barna Group is making a profound mistake. It is using the biblical term born again in a way that would make it unrecognizable by Jesus and the biblical writers. . ."




The New Testament, unlike the Barna Group, does not defile the new birth with the worldliness of unregenerate, professing Christians. For example, one of the main points of the First Epistle of John is to drive home this very truth:

· 1 John 2:29: “If you know that he is righteous, you may be
sure that everyone who practices righteousness has been born
of him.”

· 1 John 3:9: “No one born of God makes a practice of sinning,
for God’s seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning
because he has been born of God.”

· 1 John 4:7: “Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from
God, and whoever loves has been born of God and knows
God.”

· 1 John 5:4: “Everyone who has been born of God overcomes
the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the
world—our faith.”

· 1 John 5:18: “We know that everyone who has been born of
God does not keep on sinning, but he who was born of God
protects him, and the evil one does not touch him.”

[Billyray]

Economically, the nation is more than $15 trillion in debt and is fast approaching $65 trillion worth of unfunded liabilities – promises the government has made regarding Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid that it can’t afford, Rosenberg says.

Further, America has lost 53 million children to abortion since 1973.

“That’s horrific in its own right – murder in my view,” Rosenberg says. “But on top of that, as if that weren’t bad enough, it’s having an economic affect that liberals didn’t intend, which is if you build a social welfare system in which young people pay the bills of older people through taxes and then you kill 53 million younger workers you are going to have a crisis.”

http://www.wnd.com/2012/06/author-will-america-go-out-with-a-bang/

This is from Joel Rosenberg. I went to his national simulcast last Satuday ***led "Implosion" which lasted 3 hours which was very good. I am currently reading his new book with the same ***le. Perhaps you should read it BigJ. Maybe this will help you see your need to find the real God of the Bible.

[BigJulie]

This is from Joel Rosenberg. I went to his national simulcast last Satuday ***led "Implosion" which lasted 3 hours which was very good. I am currently reading his new book with the same ***le. Perhaps you should read it BigJ. Maybe this will help you see your need to find the real God of the Bible.

Or maybe his discussion will help you see that God has included the U.S. in the prophecies regarding the last days and they are found in the Book of Mormon. ;)

[Billyray]

Or maybe his discussion will help you see that God has included the U.S. in the prophecies regarding the last days and they are found in the Book of Mormon. ;)
His position is that the U.S. is NOT in end time prophecy. Actually it would be good for you to read his book then you might understand end time theology from the Christian perspective.

[James Banta]

Or maybe his discussion will help you see that God has included the U.S. in the prophecies regarding the last days and they are found in the Book of Mormon. ;)

The BofM is a Biblically based work of fiction much as "The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe". The main difference between those is that the later was written with skill by a professional author.. Neither one of them was given by inspiration, neither one is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, or instruction in righteousness.. Such is reserved only for the word of God. IHS jim

[BigJulie]

The BofM is a Biblically based work of fiction much as "The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe". The main difference between those is that the later was written with skill by a professional author.. Neither one of them was given by inspiration, neither one is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, or instruction in righteousness.. Such is reserved only for the word of God. IHS jim

I guess people will just have to read the Book of Mormon to see for themselves.

When I read the Book of Mormon, I gain a greater testimony and understanding of Jesus Christ and it also speaks of the role of the Americas in the world and what has been promised and what stands to be lost.

[Billyray]

I guess people will just have to read the Book of Mormon to see for themselves.

When I read the Book of Mormon, I gain a greater testimony and understanding of Jesus Christ and it also speaks of the role of the Americas in the world and what has been promised and what stands to be lost.

I have read the Book of Mormon multiple times cover to cover and I think is it religious fiction. I even applied the promise in Moroni 10:3-5 and nothing.

[RealFakeHair]

I guess people will just have to read the Book of Mormon to see for themselves.

When I read the Book of Mormon, I gain a greater testimony and understanding of Jesus Christ and it also speaks of the role of the Americas in the world and what has been promised and what stands to be lost.

After reading the 1830 original edition I went cross eyed.
BJ, try reading it and maybe you'll see it was dictated by a mormon god with a third grade education.
PS, guess how many time you'll find the quote, (and it came to p***?) in the first edition?

[dberrie2000]

Billyray----Thinking back when I was LDS it seems like the only thing they really taught was that things will get really bad then Christ comes back. They have no idea what pre trib, mid trib, or post trib means but if we were to label them they would be post trib.

Maybe you could point us to the place in the scriptures that use any such terms?

[BigJulie]

After reading the 1830 original edition I went cross eyed.
BJ, try reading it and maybe you'll see it was dictated by a mormon god with a third grade education.
PS, guess how many time you'll find the quote, (and it came to p***?) in the first edition?

Did you read a first edition Book of Mormon? I have seen one. My neighbor had one---did a comparison to the one we have today. She didn't see any differences that alarmed her. How did you come across a first edition BoM?

[RealFakeHair]

Did you read a first edition Book of Mormon? I have seen one. My neighbor had one---did a comparison to the one we have today. She didn't see any differences that alarmed her. How did you come across a first edition BoM?

It is a copy of the 1830 edition. Boy would I love to have one of the remaining original copy. I wonder what one is worth on the open market now?

[BigJulie]

It is a copy of the 1830 edition. Boy would I love to have one of the remaining original copy. I wonder what one is worth on the open market now?

Oh, so you don't really have the real deal---just a copy. My friend sold her original for quite a sum.

So, you read a copy and ***ume it is the real deal. Okay, real fake...you believe that if you like. :D

[RealFakeHair]

Oh, so you don't really have the real deal---just a copy. My friend sold her original for quite a sum.

So, you read a copy and ***ume it is the real deal. Okay, real fake...you believe that if you like. :D

After the first aint they all a copy?

[BigJulie]

After the first aint they all a copy?

After the first hand-written, you mean? So---are you saying you read a copy of the first hand-written one?

[RealFakeHair]

After the first hand-written, you mean? So---are you saying you read a copy of the first hand-written one?

The printed one.

[BigJulie]

The printed one.

Okay, so you think you read a copy of the first edition Book of Mormon---not the real deal as you originally lead the reader to believe.

So, have you done a comparison with the printed first edition (real deal) with the hand-written one (real deal) to make sure there were no errors from one to the other? Or do you make the ***umption that the typecaster made no errors?

[James Banta]

I guess people will just have to read the Book of Mormon to see for themselves.

When I read the Book of Mormon, I gain a greater testimony and understanding of Jesus Christ and it also speaks of the role of the Americas in the world and what has been promised and what stands to be lost.

It speaks to what Joseph Smith believed was the role in the world for America.. There is nothing in the BofM that can show it is a truthful history. There is no geography, no anthropology that matches anything written in the BofM.. Until there is an official statement from the Church that iden***ies the Land of Nephi, Zarahemla, there isn't even a starting place to tell us in what part of the western hemisphere we could find anything to support BofM history. It is all a man invented Myth and has nothing to do with reality.. Ancient cities have survived into this day, Jerusalem is there as proof that cities from antiquity may survive. In the Americas the ancient cities of Palenque, and Uxmal stand as proof that a whole civilization didn't just die without leaving testimony of it's existence. But what do we find anywhere in the Americas that supports the BofM.. ZIP.. How did Palenque, and Uxmal come come to us in tact while BofM cities just vanished?

I am glad if the BofM add strength to your faith in Jesus.. I am sorry that your religion has twisted and perverted Him into being a god created bu another created god instead of being the Mighty God, the EVERLASTING Father.. If this twisted idolized view of Jesus is what mormonism brings you to then you have no faith in the God who created all things both visible and invisible and you have no hope for salvation in such a preversion.. IHS jim

[BigJulie]

[QUOTE=James Banta;130537]It speaks to what Joseph Smith believed was the role in the world for America.. There is nothing in the BofM that can show it is a truthful history. There is no geography, no anthropology that matches anything written in the BofM.. I disagree. I have known too many missionaries that have shared stories that confirm that the history of the Book of Mormon is part of the oral history of native amerians.




Ancient cities have survived into this day, Jerusalem is there as proof that cities from antiquity may survive. Just because a city does survive, does not mean that all cities will survive.

I think the most interesting part of the Book of Mormon is the comparison to what is happening today within our own lands--corrupt lawyers and judges, secret combinations, etc. all aiming to destroy the liberty of God-fearing people.

[RealFakeHair]

Okay, so you think you read a copy of the first edition Book of Mormon---not the real deal as you originally lead the reader to believe.

So, have you done a comparison with the printed first edition (real deal) with the hand-written one (real deal) to make sure there were no errors from one to the other? Or do you make the ***umption that the typecaster made no errors?

I am sure to read all the stories about the printing of the book, and do you recall any misgivings about the printer's work?

[BigJulie]

I am sure to read all the stories about the printing of the book, and do you recall any misgivings about the printer's work?

I don't think it really matters. I think anyone who values the book, values it on the content, not on the printer's work. This is why Talmage, who was a college professor, picked up a pamphlet that was written in horrific English and joined the LDS church. He said that all of the eloquent speakers and writings he had ever come across and rejected, he was very intriqued by this pamphlet in which the author was obviously lacking education and yet made one of the most brilliant cases he had ever read.

[James Banta]

After reading the 1830 original edition I went cross eyed.
BJ, try reading it and maybe you'll see it was dictated by a mormon god with a third grade education.
PS, guess how many time you'll find the quote, (and it came to p***?) in the first edition?

Now, now... You know that the BofM is a translation of an ABRIDGMENT.. It would get wordy like that.. Adding such words that have no real real meaning..
There are no run on sentences for wordy descriptions. P***ages like 4 Nephi 1:6 don't exist in the BofM how do they:


4 Nephi 1:6
And thus did the thirty and eighth year p*** away, and also the thirty and ninth, and forty and first, and the forty and second, yea, even until forty and nine years had p***ed away, and also the fifty and first, and the fifty and second; yea, and even until fifty and nine years had p***ed away

Or am I wrong and it would be much harder to say "
59 years p***ed"?

Yes I am showing how ridiculous it is to say that the BofM wasn't wordy especially for a book that calls it's self an abridgment.. When looked at as a book written by an uneducated man trying to write a book based on the legends of the day in Biblical sounding language is is very successful. The problem is to educated people it is easily see to be just that a fraud invented in the mind of seriously uneducated but imaginative individual.. IHS jim

[BigJulie]

Now, now... You know that the BofM is a translation of an ABRIDGMENT.. It would get wordy like that.. Adding such words that have no real real meaning..
There are no run on sentences for wordy descriptions. P***ages like 4 Nephi 1:6 don't exist in the BofM how do they:


4 Nephi 1:6
And thus did the thirty and eighth year p*** away, and also the thirty and ninth, and forty and first, and the forty and second, yea, even until forty and nine years had p***ed away, and also the fifty and first, and the fifty and second; yea, and even until fifty and nine years had p***ed away

Or am I wrong and it would be much harder to say "
59 years p***ed"?

Yes I am showing how ridiculous it is to say that the BofM wasn't wordy especially for a book that calls it's self an abridgment.. When looked at as a book written by an uneducated man trying to write a book based on the legends of the day in Biblical sounding language is is very successful. The problem is to educated people it is easily see to be just that a fraud invented in the mind of seriously uneducated but imaginative individual.. IHS jim

Read the Bible in Hebrew :).....and you will find that there are verses that repeat themselves many times.

Do you know that the Book of Mormon translates very easily into Hebrew? Why, because it is written in the same sentence structure. And no one is that brilliant. You try it and see how you do.

[Billyray]

Do you know that the Book of Mormon translates very easily into Hebrew?
BigJ you claim to be the expert language guru here. Perhaps you can translate part of the book of mormon for us
Reformed Egyptian--Anthon Transcript
http://www.utlm.org/images/newsletters/105anthontranscript.jpg
http://www.utlm.org/images/newsletters/105anthontranscript.jpg

[BigJulie]

BigJ you claim to be the expert language guru here. Perhaps you can translate part of the book of mormon for us
Reformed Egyptian--Anthon Transcript


The way it is written in English is the same as Hebrew sentence structure. I can see this as I learned Hebrew. We don't speak in English the way they speak in Hebrew. James was making fun of the sentence structure. I note that it is not like English, that is why it was not translated in a way familiar to us.

[James Banta]

Did you read a first edition Book of Mormon? I have seen one. My neighbor had one---did a comparison to the one we have today. She didn't see any differences that alarmed her. How did you come across a first edition BoM?


I have one.. It is a 150 Year replica published under the authority of the First Presidency by Desert Book. And it does have changes from the original that make it easier to separate God into the three Beings of the Mormon Godhead.. Mary was said to be the Mother of God in the 1830 and the mother of the Son of God in the modern.. That allowed a huge change in the way the 1842 version of the first vision reported the nature of God. Instead of the insistence of the BofM that there is one God (Mosiah 15:2-4).. I guess he should have changed more than he did. It certainly shows that he changed the nature of God to suite himself as he taught in 1844:

I have always declared God to be a distinct personage, Jesus Christ a separate and distinct personage from God the Father, and that the Holy Ghost was a distinct personage and a Spirit: and these three cons***ute three distinct personages and three Gods. If this is in accordance with the New Testament, lo and behold! we have three Gods anyhow, and they are plural: and who can contradict it! (History of the Church, Vol. 6, p. 473)

Who is right then? Who contradicted this three Gods doctrine that Smith taught? The BofM does!! The Bible Does!! Only believers in Smith above the word of God accepts this created tangible God doctrine that Smith invented!!
IHS jim

[RealFakeHair]

I don't think it really matters. I think anyone who values the book, values it on the content, not on the printer's work. This is why Talmage, who was a college professor, picked up a pamphlet that was written in horrific English and joined the LDS church. He said that all of the eloquent speakers and writings he had ever come across and rejected, he was very intriqued by this pamphlet in which the author was obviously lacking education and yet made one of the most brilliant cases he had ever read.

I see the Talmage bridge most days, but can't see the forest for the trees.
I've always been fascinated with how new religions get there start.
During the 19th century there were a crop of them, Jehovah Witness, Seventh day adventist, Mormonism, and to some degree Pentecostalism.
The Rapture movement began at the same time as the Mormon church in 1830 give or take a few years.
One does not need a pamphlet to find the Savior of the Holy Bible. All one needs is for someone to show them St John 3:16.
Given the choice between one sweet verse from the Holy Bible or a fictional Book of Mormon, which do we choose?
God gives us choices in life, but When it comes to His Son there is but One.

[BigJulie]

I see the Talmage bridge most days, but can't see the forest for the trees.
I've always been fascinated with how new religions get there start.
During the 19th century there were a crop of them, Jehovah Witness, Seventh day adventist, Mormonism, and to some degree Pentecostalism.
The Rapture movement began at the same time as the Mormon church in 1830 give or take a few years.
One does not need a pamphlet to find the Savior of the Holy Bible. All one needs is for someone to show them St John 3:16.
Given the choice between one sweet verse from the Holy Bible or a fictional Book of Mormon, which do we choose?
God gives us choices in life, but When it comes to His Son there is but One.

The "transcendatlism" movement (in which men realized that they could have a direct relationship with God rather than through the church)--is that what you are refering to as the "rapture movement"?

I don't choose between the Book of Mormon and the Bible---I choose both. God is not locked into one book in which He speaks no more.

[James Banta]

Read the Bible in Hebrew :).....and you will find that there are verses that repeat themselves many times.

Do you know that the Book of Mormon translates very easily into Hebrew? Why, because it is written in the same sentence structure. And no one is that brilliant. You try it and see how you do.

The Bible never claims to be an abridgment of an ancient record as does the BofM.. There is all the space needed for the writers to say what the Holy Spirit was leading them to record.. The BofM claims not to have that much space but that it was difficult to record on the plates. But the BofM is far more wordy than the Bible.. If it was telling us the truth why not just say it was 59 Years without going through all the years leading up to it "Not 20, years not 42, not 43..." That is wordy and unnecessary. It proves that it's claim that it is an abridgment is a lie..

The BofM was written in English not Hebrew. According to Joseph Smith it was never recorded in Hebrew.. All you are saying here is that it translates from English to Hebrew easily.. I don't know it it translates easier to Hebrew than any other English book.. Since Smith said it was never written in Hebrew your point has no meaning.. IHS jim

[BigJulie]

.. The BofM claims not to have that much space but that it was difficult to record on the plates. But the BofM is far more wordy than the Bible..

The BofM was written in English not Hebrew. According to Joseph Smith it was never recorded in Hebrew.. All you are saying here is that it translates from English to Hebrew easily.. I don't know it it translates easier to Hebrew than any other English book.. Since Smith said it was never written in Hebrew your point has no meaning.. IHS jim

The original writers of the Book of Mormon wrote in reformed Egyptian but were raised to understand Hebrew. Just as the NT writers wrote in Greek but were raised to speak Hebrew.

If you read the Bible in Hebrew, it is more wordy than the other translations--or I should say, that it reads in a different sentence structure. This same sentence structure can be seen in the Book of Mormon. There are many people who speak English and each have their own unique style depending on where in the U.S. they are from (or even out of the U.S.) That Hebrew style can be seen in the Book of Mormon.

[James Banta]

The way it is written in English is the same as Hebrew sentence structure. I can see this as I learned Hebrew. We don't speak in English the way they speak in Hebrew. James was making fun of the sentence structure. I note that it is not like English, that is why it was not translated in a way familiar to us.

I am showing that the translation was wordy.. It was unnecessary to write a p***age that goes through a list of years.. Not 40, not 41, not 42... Why not just say 59? You are making a claim here with not so much as one example.. So show us how Hebrew and Egyptian use this same kind of sentence structure. I would love to see this especially for the Egyptian since it is mostly engraved as the Gold plates were said to have been.. The fewer words used the better for such a recording.. You have to provide examples to have you claim be given any respect.. IHS jim

[BigJulie]

I am showing that the translation was wordy.. It was unnecessary to write a p***age that goes through a list of years.. Not 40, not 41, not 42... Why not just say 59? You are making a claim here with not so much as one example.. So show us how Hebrew and Egyptian use this same kind of sentence structure. I would love to see this especially for the Egyptian since it is mostly engraved as the Gold plates were said to have been.. The fewer words used the better for such a recording.. You have to provide examples to have you claim be given any respect.. IHS jim

Someone who is doing their best to translate does not sit and count up and make their own sentence. They take the sentence and do their best to translate it into English. To do otherwise is to lose the style of the writer. Joseph Smith kept the style in tact which is why it reads with Hebrew type sentence structures.

Example, in English you would say "the br*** plates." In Hebrew, you would say "the plates of br***."

Another example: "Yea, I make a record in the language of my father." Instead of saying the English style "in my father's language."

Another example: "as he clapped his hands upon them, they were filled with the Holy Spirit." In English we might say "lay our hands on someone" or "touched someone"--but in Hebrew, there is a form of the verb that gives it intensity. The term "clapped" shares the idea of this intensity that is not found in English.

[James Banta]

[BigJulie;130560]The original writers of the Book of Mormon wrote in reformed Egyptian but were raised to understand Hebrew. Just as the NT writers wrote in Greek but were raised to speak Hebrew.

If this was the truth there would be examples of Hebrew found at least as often in the Americas as it is found in Israel.. There is NONE.. Not one example of Ancient Hebrew being found anywhere in the Americas.. Again you make statements and then excuse yourself from showing any examples that could support your claims..


If you read the Bible in Hebrew, it is more wordy than the other translations--or I should say, that it reads in a different sentence structure. This same sentence structure can be seen in the Book of Mormon. There are many people who speak English and each have their own unique style depending on where in the U.S. they are from (or even out of the U.S.) That Hebrew style can be seen in the Book of Mormon.

I don't deny that Hebrew could be more wordy than English. Then again there are times when English is much more wordy than Hebrew.. For example the letters of the Hebrew Alphabet has the meaning of an entire word, A (א ) is derived from the word Ox.. B (ב ) is a letter that means house. YHWH a Name God took for Himself. That word today is translated LORD.. I am not seeing wordiness in Hebrew.. I can't find any examples of such a style being required.. Hey just because Jeff Lindsay makes a claim doesn't make it true. You still have to show that such people would include wordy inscriptions on a material that was said to be difficult to write on.. You aren't making sense.. IHS jim

[BigJulie]

[QUOTE=James Banta;130567]If this was the truth there would be examples of Hebrew found at least as often in the Americas as it is found in Israel.. There is NONE.. Not one example of Ancient Hebrew being found anywhere in the Americas.. Again you make statements and then excuse yourself from showing any examples that could support your claims.. I don't see why this needs to be so. Latin is a dead language. If it were not for the written history, it would not exist as a spoken language.


I don't deny that Hebrew could be more wordy than English. Then again there are times when English is much more wordy than Hebrew.. For example the letters of the Hebrew Alphabet has the meaning of an entire word, A (א ) is derived from the word Ox.. B (ב ) is a letter that means house. YHWH a Name God took for Himself. That word today is translated LORD.. You give yourself away that you don't really know Hebrew. YHWH is stated as "Lord" (Adonai) by the Jews. English translators copied the practice, not because it is correct, but because it was the tradition of the Jews.


I am not seeing wordiness in Hebrew.. Then you are not reading it in Hebrew ;). One word in Hebrew can be a sentence. But you know that right?


I can't find any examples of such a style being required.. Hey just because Jeff Lindsay makes a claim doesn't make it true. You still have to show that such people would include wordy inscriptions on a material that was said to be difficult to write on.. You aren't making sense.. IHS jim I am not going on Jeff Lindsay. I am going by what I learned from studying Hebrew. I gave you examples.

"And it came to p***" is denoted yhiy>w: — “and he/it was”; “and it
came to p***” while just taking away the vav (or w) make it "let him/it be."

[James Banta]

[BigJulie;130600][QUOTE] I don't see why this needs to be so. Latin is a dead language. If it were not for the written history, it would not exist as a spoken language.

One more tropic that that until now wasn't under discussion? Just what has Latin to so with how easy of it to translate the BofM into Hebrew? Actually the study of Latin make learning the languages based in it much easier to learn.. So what it has nothing to do with the discussion..


You give yourself away that you don't really know Hebrew. YHWH is stated as "Lord" (Adonai) by the Jews. English translators copied the practice, not because it is correct, but because it was the tradition of the Jews.

No I have devoted my time to the study of the scripture and left the translation to others.. You seem to feel it important to study the language rather than the scripture.. Ok to each their own.. YHWH has no pronunciation. Can you show m that using the word LORD is an incorrect usage? I could use the words God used.. That is just as meaningful.. "I AM"


Then you are not reading it in Hebrew ;). One word in Hebrew can be a sentence. But you know that right?

Nope I don't read a word of Hebrew. I have wonderful, prayerfully, studied translations, Some of them so inspired that they have lasted for hundreds of years. Can you show me any Hebrew word that could have the meaning of the manner the BofM was translated in to say that "And thus did the thirty and eighth year p*** away, and also the thirty and ninth, and forty and first, and the forty and second, yea, even until forty and nine years had p***ed away, and also the fifty and first, and the fifty and second; yea, and even until fifty and nine years had p***ed away." And not just that 59 years past? That would be something. Proof that wordiness is built into one Hebrew word.. And yet all you do is make unsupported claims.. Such does NOT support your position. All it does is sound foolish..


I am not going on Jeff Lindsay. I am going by what I learned from studying Hebrew. I gave you examples.

"And it came to p***" is denoted yhiy>w: — “and he/it was”; “and it
came to p***” while just taking away the vav (or w) make it "let him/it be."



Sounds like a reference from a book.. While that isn't a bad thing and I respect the effort it doesn't show that you are a translator from years of study.. You again left no reference to show some authority in your learning. Sounds again like something you picked up from an LDS teacher or a fraud like Jeff Lindsay. One who make ***umptions with very little study.

Deut 5:23
יט וַיְהִי, כְּשָׁמְעֲכֶם אֶת-הַקּוֹל מִתּוֹךְ הַחֹשֶׁךְ, וְהָהָר, בֹּעֵר בָּאֵשׁ; וַתִּקְרְבוּן אֵלַי, כָּל-רָאשֵׁי שִׁבְטֵיכֶם וְזִקְנֵיכֶם.
23 And it came to p***, when ye heard the voice out of the midst of the darkness, while the mountain did burn with fire, that ye came near unto me, even all the heads of your tribes, and your elders

There the wording translated And it came to p*** is" יט וַיְהִי, (Right to left or course). According to what I see in Standard English characters that is written as Ahmed Abul Gheit..

I will not doubt your word that you have studied.. I just wonder if you actually do know what you are talking about.. It doesn't seem so.. IHS jim

[James Banta]

Someone who is doing their best to translate does not sit and count up and make their own sentence. They take the sentence and do their best to translate it into English. To do otherwise is to lose the style of the writer. Joseph Smith kept the style in tact which is why it reads with Hebrew type sentence structures.

Example, in English you would say "the br*** plates." In Hebrew, you would say "the plates of br***."

Another example: "Yea, I make a record in the language of my father." Instead of saying the English style "in my father's language."

Another example: "as he clapped his hands upon them, they were filled with the Holy Spirit." In English we might say "lay our hands on someone" or "touched someone"--but in Hebrew, there is a form of the verb that gives it intensity. The term "clapped" shares the idea of this intensity that is not found in English.

And yet this is ALL explainable in Smith trying HARD to make the BofM sound like the Bible in the way it was written. That was the reason not because it was like that on some plates that were never again to be available to any man.. The BofM was written in the style that Smith saw in the Bible and that IS THE REASON that it takes on that style not because it was recorded as such.. Strange when I read older English writing like those written in the Elizabethan age they too have this same style of syntax. Your point on the structure of the language used is a very weak example of why the BofM is true.. Instead show some historic, or anthropological evidence to support it.. But alas there is NONE.. You are left with trying to show some evidence for it in the unlearned way Smith used language based in the 1600's usage of the language.. IHS jim

[James Banta]

[BigJulie;130539][QUOTE] I disagree. I have known too many missionaries that have shared stories that confirm that the history of the Book of Mormon is part of the

Again you choose to look to what men teach instead of resting on even what you have said is scripture and is more reliable than even what your teachers today teach.. You tell me of some anecdotes you heard from someone that you believe confirm what you already believe.. That is an opinion without bias nor isn't it, NOT!! So these stories confirm the stories of the BofM? But they are oral and could have been long distorted by the telling and retelling, just as you insist that the Bible was distorted.. But those tales because they say something you see as supporting the BofM are true while the Bible when it teaches that God has been God from everlasting to everlasting is a lie? You faith in commendable, but it is in men rather than God. Is God the author of these oral histories of native Americans. Or could it be that these tradition are retelling of what science tells us of the eastern travels of a nomadic peoples in search of game during a time of great difficulties for their tribes? I world never say that boats were not used in the eastern migration of Asiatic
people during and just after the last galactic period..



Just because a city does survive, does not mean that all cities will survive.

But for a whole people of millions to just disappear without so much as a trace is not possible.. Even Sodom left a foot print. Many scholars today believe they have located that foot print ("The five cities of the plain have been located and the evidence is staggering. For the first time in modern history we have found round ***** of brimstone, or nearly pure sulfur, embedded in an ashen area near the Dead Sea, which show clear signs of having once been ancient building structures!" http://www.arkdiscovery.com/sodom_&_gomorrah.htm).

That being true and you tell me that cities of the Nephites disappeared leaving NOTHING? NONSENSE..


I think the most interesting part of the Book of Mormon is the comparison to what is happening today within our own lands--corrupt lawyers and judges, secret combinations, etc. all aiming to destroy the liberty of God-fearing people.

Change of subject I would rather not discuss here. Instead please open a new thread on that point and we will discuss it.. IHS jim

[BigJulie]

Again you choose to look to what men teach instead of resting on even what you have said is scripture and is more reliable than even what your teachers today teach.. On one hand you say this--don't rely on men and in the very next paragraph to support your position you say:





But for a whole people of millions to just disappear without so much as a trace is not possible.. Even Sodom left a foot print. Many scholars today believe they have located that foot print ("The five cities of the plain have been located and the evidence is staggering. For the first time in modern history we have found round ***** of brimstone, or nearly pure sulfur, embedded in an ashen area near the Dead Sea, which show clear signs of having once been ancient building structures!" http://www.arkdiscovery.com/sodom_&_gomorrah.htm).


Do you even recognize the hypocrisy here?

[James Banta]

On one hand you say this--don't rely on men and in the very next paragraph to support your position you say:

Do you even recognize the hypocrisy here?

Because I point out that the traces of a civilization are impossible to totally destroy you say I am trusting in men? Hardly.. I trust in what the Bible teaches and not in the teachings of men as you do.. It is clear that God destroyed the cities of the plane to the last living thing.. Even the web page I have quoted here supports what the Bible has taught of the subject.. It is not trusting mere men to look at the evidence found that supports the sacred record. That doesn't change my faith in the Bible, but It does, by the grace of God, give me reason for my faith..

What reason beyond blind faith do you have for the Book of Mormon? Just a feeling, A feeling promised to all people that ALL people do not receive. Tell me is there a city that can be identified as Nephite? Is there any reference to a region named after Nephi? Outside the old world references that are included in the BofM is there ONE THING that supports it's far fetched story line.. NO! It is based on the legends that the American Indian were a remnant of the lost 10 tribes. A legend that far predated Joseph Smith, or even the United States. The BofM is a book that used these old legends to place a man, Joseph Smith in a roll of power and authority over men. A power that he used to satisfy his personal lusts.. IHS jim

[dberrie2000]

Because I point out that the traces of a civilization are impossible to totally destroy you say I am trusting in men? Hardly.. I trust in what the Bible teaches and not in the teachings of men as you do..


James--anyone who believes that one can murder, rape, commit adultery, etc.--without repentance, and still inherit eternal life does not believe what the Bible teaches--period.

[RealFakeHair]

James--anyone who believes that one can murder, rape, commit adultery, etc.--without repentance, and still inherit eternal life does not believe what the Bible teaches--period.

It is natural for humans to look at the big sins and over look the little ones.
However, in the Eyes of God of the Holy Bible, sin is sin.
Is it fair for God to judge a little white lie and murder, rape and adultery all in one, or should he separate them?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000
James--anyone who believes that one can murder, rape, commit adultery, etc.--without repentance, and still inherit eternal life does not believe what the Bible teaches--period.




It is natural for humans to look at the big sins and over look the little ones.
However, in the Eyes of God of the Holy Bible, sin is sin.
Is it fair for God to judge a little white lie and murder, rape and adultery all in one, or should he separate them?


Although all sin is sin--the Bible does not establish the fact that all sin is the same. That is shown in the fact that there is a sin where there is no repentance.

As in the law of our land--all violation of the law is breaking of the law--but not all violations are treated as equal violations. Running of a stopsign is not on par with murder.

I was in no way attempting to maintain the idea that the big sins are all we will be judged for--only that James believes that once we are initially saved---we can commit those big sins I listed--and still be saved into life eternal--even without repentance for those sins.

[James Banta]

Although all sin is sin--the Bible does not establish the fact that all sin is the same. That is shown in the fact that there is a sin where there is no repentance.

As in the law of our land--all violation of the law is breaking of the law--but not all violations are treated as equal violations. Running of a stopsign is not on par with murder.

I was in no way attempting to maintain the idea that the big sins are all we will be judged for--only that James believes that once we are initially saved---we can commit those big sins I listed--and still be saved into life eternal--even without repentance for those sins.

I have never said that there is no repentance in coming to Jesus. You should know that to repent means to turn, to change direction.. Instead of being shackled to sin we need to change that direction toward God and accept the New Birth He offers though faith in Jesus..

Jesus did say that to deny the Holy Spirit is so serious that in doing that there is no repentance now or ever.. But what is that sin? Is it really necessary to have a direct revelation and then deny God? Or could it be a refusal to allow the Holy Spirit to being you to the cross for the blood of Jesus to make you clean making you acceptable to a Holy God? To deny the Holy Spirit is to believe that the sacrifice of Jesus is worthless and trample His blood into the ground believing Him to be a liar.. It is the total rejection of faith and therefore in not forgivable..

If a person sins all though his life and near the end confesses their sin God is faithful and just to forgive their sin and cleanse them from all unrighteousness. If that is never done and a person dies in their sin they have committed the unpardonable sin and there is no place for them but the Lake of Fire.. The Bible is clear that all sin will be forgiven except the unpardonable sin.. Therefore the only sin that will be charged at the Great White throne is the sin of Blaspheme against the Holy Spirit. All unbelievers commit that sin.. All those that worship false man invented polytheistic gods commit that sin.. All other sin stealing, murder, lying, and adultery will be forgiven (Matthew 12:31). Only the terrible Blaspheme against God (the Holy Spirit) will be held against a person at judgment.. IHS jim

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000
Although all sin is sin--the Bible does not establish the fact that all sin is the same. That is shown in the fact that there is a sin where there is no repentance.

As in the law of our land--all violation of the law is breaking of the law--but not all violations are treated as equal violations. Running of a stopsign is not on par with murder.

I was in no way attempting to maintain the idea that the big sins are all we will be judged for--only that James believes that once we are initially saved---we can commit those big sins I listed--and still be saved into life eternal--even without repentance for those sins.




I have never said that there is no repentance in coming to Jesus.

I did not state that you didn't believe in initial repentance--only that afterward--one could commit all manner of sin without repentance--and one is still saved.

[Billyray]

I did not state that you didn't believe in initial repentance--only that afterward--one could commit all manner of sin without repentance--and one is still saved.
How is that different than what you believe with respect to ongoing sin?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000
I did not state that you didn't believe in initial repentance--only that afterward--one could commit all manner of sin without repentance--and one is still saved.



How is that different than what you believe with respect to ongoing sin?

Because the LDS believe those who refuse to repent will not be forgiven.

Once-saved-always-saved theology infers that it does not matter what sins one commits after they are saved, or not repent of it--they are still saved.

[Billyray]

Because the LDS believe those who refuse to repent will not be forgiven.


So obedience to the commandments is not required but rather repetative repentance. Really?

[BigJulie]

So obedience to the commandments is not required but rather repetative repentance. Really?

Repentance is part of the process of santification. The closer you come to Christ, the more you realize you have more to repent of. :)

[Billyray]

Repentance is part of the process of santification. The closer you come to Christ, the more you realize you have more to repent of. :)
But the fact that you keep needing to repent just proves that you are a repetative sinner.

[BigJulie]

But the fact that you keep needing to repent just proves that you are a repetative sinner.

Not at all. It says that I am seeing God more clearly and my need to repent more clearly.

[Billyray]

Not at all. .

Sure that is exactly what that means BigJ. You are a repeater of sin not a repenter.

[BigJulie]

Sure that is exactly what that means BigJ. You are a repeater of sin not a repenter.

When God purifies (as in silver) the impurities bubble to the top. Anyone who loves God recognizes that to become more and more aware of our sins means that the cleansing process is taking place. Those who do not see a continued need to repent are not being purified.

[Billyray]

When God purifies (as in silver) the impurities bubble to the top. Anyone who loves God recognizes that to become more and more aware of our sins means that the cleansing process is taking place. Those who do not see a continued need to repent are not being purified.

That does not change the fact that you are a sinner and will forever be a sinner. And BTW you are hardly purified especially given the fact that you still cling to a false gospel and strange gods.

[BigJulie]

That does not change the fact that you are a sinner and will forever be a sinner. And BTW you are hardly purified especially given the fact that you still cling to a false gospel and strange gods.

Yes, Christ was a heretic to the "believers" and so was Martin Luther and so was Tyndale and Whyte.

The problem as I see it is that when you can no longer make your point based on scripture, you must direct your comments to me personally.

[Billyray]

The problem as I see it is that when you can no longer make your point based on scripture, you must direct your comments to me personally.

Have you ever considered that what I have said about you is true or do you just ***ume that I am wrong?

[BigJulie]

Have you ever considered that what I have said about you is true or do you just ***ume that I am wrong?

Billyray, you have said you are incapable of keeping even the list of commandments I gave you---one of which was being honest. So, from that point---I can ***ume that you do not see yourself as capable of being honest and therefore, there is no reason for me to trust you.

I don't ***ume you are wrong. I know you are. I can see with my own eyes that what you teach is not true. You give teens no hope but to think that some of them are condemned to hell if they don't naturally follow God---but any parent knows that staying chaste and following Christ (the spirit is willing,but the flesh is weak)--takes work.

[Billyray]

Billyray, you have said you are incapable of keeping even the list of commandments I gave you---one of which was being honest. So, from that point---I can ***ume that you do not see yourself as capable of being honest and therefore, there is no reason for me to trust you.

Can you keep the commandments?

[Billyray]

I don't ***ume you are wrong. I know you are..

That is the problem with those who are wrong and ***ume that they are right because they will never ever see the error of their ways. You believe in a false gospel and strange gods but you ***ume that what you are being taught is the truth and what Christians tell you is false and because of this you will remain blind and will endure an eterity in hell if you persist on this course.

[BigJulie]

Can you keep the commandments?

I understand that with God's help, all things are possible. So, I recognize that when I fail--it is not God who fails, but my faith is lacking.

Can I be 100% honest. Yes

Can I be baptized. Yes

Can I never steal or cheat someone is business. Yes

What areas do I need to strengthen my faith? In the areas of love and kindness. Do I see improvement as I place my faith in Christ--absolutely.

But, Billyray, you seem to think that any area in which you are lacking means that you can't keep any of the commandments---to you there is perfectly are not at all. I say balogna. God wants us to do our best to love him and keep his commandments. He wants us to have faith that with his help we can overcome all of our weaknesses and sins. You call this santification for yourself, but to Mormons who believe likewise, you criticize and mock acting as if all commandments can't be kept than no commandments are worth trying to keep.

[Billyray]

I understand that with God's help, all things are possible. .
So you believe that you can keep the commandments perfectly. Correct?

[BigJulie]

That is the problem with those who are wrong and ***ume that they are right because they will never ever see the error of their ways. You believe in a false gospel and strange gods but you ***ume that what you are being taught is the truth and what Christians tell you is false and because of this you will remain blind and will endure an eterity in hell if you persist on this course.

No---I can see that it is a l.ie to tell a teen that good works will naturally flow from them. I know that being chaste takes courage and a lot of faith (even for the believer). I know not only from my own experience, but from examples like these teens who are fornicating, that you are leading them astray. They will pick up heart ache and STDs until they figure out that they have been sold a bill of goods.

And as noted--once again, when real life does not back you--you begin making personal comments at me.

[Billyray]

Can I be 100% honest. Yes

Well you have failed with this one is just the last 20 minutes when you falsely attributed something to me that you knew was false.

[BigJulie]

So you believe that you can keep the commandments perfectly. Correct?

Billyray, do you see you add words that are not in the Bible. "perfectly" is an example. "proper" after the word "temple" is another. You have to change the very wording of the Bible to get it to fit with your theology.

[Billyray]

No---I can see that it is a l.ie to tell a teen that good works will naturally flow from them.

It is not a lie to tell anyone that those who are truly born again will have a radically changed life and that their life will get progressively more and more Christlike over time. If they think that they are born again and live like hell then they are not likely born again and they should examine themself.

[BigJulie]

Well you have failed with this one is just the last 20 minutes when you falsely attributed something to me that you knew was false.

Nope---you just changed your position and so I accepted it---when you changed back, I accepted it again.

I just have never figured out which one you believe---either that good works flow naturally from the born again believer or that the born again believer can be fornicating.

[Billyray]

Billyray, do you see you add words that are not in the Bible. "perfectly" is an example. "proper" after the word "temple" is another. You have to change the very wording of the Bible to get it to fit with your theology.

If you don't keep all of the commandments are you keeping the commandments?

[Billyray]

Nope---you just changed your position and so I accepted it---when you changed back, I accepted it again.


I didn't change my positon rather you falsely attributed something to me that I never said. Which is par for the course with you and then you have the nerve to tell me you can be 100% honest. You are no different than the rich guy who thinks that he can keep all of the commandments.

[BigJulie]

If you don't keep all of the commandments are you keeping the commandments?

Billyray---is the word "perfectly"in the Bible after keep the commandments? Or do you accept that we are purified by Christ?

See, for yourself, you accept the condition that one must be purified over time (but I ***ume that in that purification process...one is doing better and better at keeping the commandments.)

But then for others, you sit and point a finger saying that keeping the commandments must be an all or nothing proposition.

Why do you have one standard for yourselves and then put a different standard on others?

[BigJulie]

I didn't change my positon rather you falsely attributed something to me that I never said. Which is par for the course with you and then you have the nerve to tell me you can be 100% honest. You are no different than the rich guy who thinks that he can keep all of the commandments.


Billyray---I merely accepted what you said regarding yourself and Piper..that good works flow from the believer--that they are transformed. If I have made any error is that I didn't know you wanted to keep having it both ways.

[Billyray]

If I have made any error is that I didn't know you wanted to keep having it both ways.

Where did I ever say that none of the 80% were born again?

The problem is that I could never ever give you a specific from a generic group of people.

[BigJulie]

[QUOTE=Billyray;131111]Where did I ever say that none of the 80% were born again? When you stated that being born again---good works naturally flow as the Holy Ghost directs. I guess I was wrong to ***ume then, that based on this professed belief and your insistence on Piper who states that those who are born again are transformed---that fornicators would be among this group.


The problem is that I could never ever give you a specific from a generic group of people. Then why do you give a generic specific belief that things will naturally just flow when you have evidence to the contrary?

[Billyray]

When you stated that being born again---good works naturally flow as the Holy Ghost directs.

Quote me where I ever said that NONE of the 80% were born again. I couldn't possibly make that claim because I have no idea any of the details about any of the people in the survey. And as far as what Piper said is that the survey ***umed that those who called themself born again were really born again which of course he took issue with.

[Billyray]

Then why do you give a generic specific belief that things will naturally just flow when you have evidence to the contrary?

Because we know this from real life and we know this from the scriptures.

[BigJulie]

Quote me where I ever said that NONE of the 80% were born again. I couldn't possibly make that claim because I have no idea any of the details about any of the people in the survey. And as far as what Piper said is that the survey ***umed that those who called themself born again were really born again which of course he took issue with.

Okay--you were the one who kept claiming Piper. I guess I was wrong to ***ume that you aligned with Piper. You do believe that some of the 80% of teens who promised chas***y but became fornicators are born again.

So, how do you believe that those of this group who are fornicators are born again---how is that good works naturally flowing in them?

[Billyray]

Okay--you were the one who kept claiming Piper. I guess I was wrong to ***ume that you aligned with Piper. You do believe that some of the 80% of teens who promised chas***y but became fornicators are born again.

I can't possibly say who is and who is not born again from a generic study. How could I possibly make that determination?

100% LDS sin who in that group will be exalted?

[BigJulie]

I can't possibly say who is and who is not born again from a generic study. How could I possibly make that determination?

100% LDS sin who in that group will be exalted?

I could tell you that 100% of LDS who are in the process of fornicating are not following the Holy Ghost or having good works naturally flow from them as you claim your group to be.

[Billyray]

I could tell you that 100% of LDS who are in the process of fornicating are not following the Holy Ghost or having good works naturally flow from them as you claim your group to be.

What about Joseph Smith?

[Billyray]

I could tell you that 100% of LDS who are in the process of fornicating are not following the Holy Ghost or having good works naturally flow from them as you claim your group to be.

So some sins are OK with God and other sins are not OK? Is that what you are trying to tell me?

[BigJulie]

So some sins are OK with God and other sins are not OK? Is that what you are trying to tell me?

You are changing the subject here Billyray. First you claim that good works naturally flow from the believer---now you are busy making excuses for their sinning. Which is it?

[Billyray]

You are changing the subject here Billyray.

Not at all. Are some sins OK with God and some sins not OK?

[Billyray]

First you claim that good works naturally flow from the believer---now you are busy making excuses for their sinning. Which is it?
Have I ever said that a born again believer never sins? Is that the standard by which you ***ume for a born again believer?

[BigJulie]

Have I ever said that a born again believer never sins? Is that the standard by which you ***ume for a born again believer?

Okay---so just answer me this one simple question. When a person fornicates--are good works naturally flowing from them? Are they following the direction of the Holy Ghost as you claim is the outcome for being born again?

[Billyray]

When a person fornicates--are good works naturally flowing from them?

When a person sins if they are convicted of their sin and they change direction and live more and more Christlike over time then that is a consistent with what happens in a born again believer's life. BTW I think it is odd that you are so caught up with this particular sin and all of the other sins seem to be OK in your eyes.

[BigJulie]

When a person sins if they are convicted of their sin and they change direction and live more and more Christlike over time then that is a consistent with what happens in a born again believer's life. BTW I think it is odd that you are so caught up with this particular sin and all of the other sins seem to be OK in your eyes.

I am just using a specific example from a data set that was presented.

So, will Christ save a person FROM their sin, or just help them AFTER their sin?

[Billyray]

I am just using a specific example from a data set that was presented.


So when you make fibs here that is OK with God?

[Billyray]

So, will Christ save a person FROM their sin, or just help them AFTER their sin?

A person who comes to Christ and places his faith in him will be saved. The Holy Spirit guides the born again believer and convicts that believer when he commits sin.

[dberrie2000]

A person who comes to Christ and places his faith in him will be saved.


Billyray--you have stated that a person that is saved will bring forth good fruits.

Are you including that premise as an integral part of those whom have, as you state,--- "faith in him"?

[James Banta]

Billyray--you have stated that a person that is saved will bring forth good fruits.

Are you including that premise as an integral part of those whom have, as you state,--- "faith in him"?


As it is natural for birds to fly, as it is natural for babies to suckle, it is natural for good to come from the righteousness of God.. Since that is the righteousness a Christian has it is natural for good works to spring forth from them.. That is not how they became righteous it is a side effect of their imputed righteousness.. IHS jim

[Billyray]

Billyray--you have stated that a person that is saved will bring forth good fruits.

Are you including that premise as an integral part of those whom have, as you state,--- "faith in him"?

Those who are regenerated or born again naturally produce good works because they are born again.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000
Billyray--you have stated that a person that is saved will bring forth good fruits.

Are you including that premise as an integral part of those whom have, as you state,--- "faith in him"?



Those who are regenerated or born again naturally produce good works because they are born again.


But are those works part of your phrase "faith in Christ"?

[Billyray]

But are those works part of your phrase "faith in Christ"?

Are you asking me if works contribute for salvation? If this is your quesiton the answer is no.

[alanmolstad]

I posted this elsewhere, and am putting it up here as well:

I'm wondering when Bill Maher is going to shut up? ....

My advice:

Dont watch TV.


I never watch except to catch the weather reports...
After that, I dont really care what the heck Kim Kardashian and the Bieber are up to...