End Times--Mormon style

[Billyray]

When I was LDS I was taught that in the end times things would get really bad then Christ would come back. Is this what Mormons still teach or has the end times doctrine gotten more advanced?

I was also taught that we would gather back to Missouri. Have they dropped this out of the end times scenario?

[Apologette]

When I was LDS I was taught that in the end times things would get really bad then Christ would come back. Is this what Mormons still teach or has the end times doctrine gotten more advanced?

I was also taught that we would gather back to Missouri. Have they dropped this out of the end times scenario?

The only thing I can remember reading is:

1. Joseph Smith and early Mormonism were Millenialists - and truly believed they were paving the way for Christ's Second Advent.

2. Some Mormons believe that Joseph Smith will also return and lead Mormons to Zion (Missouri). There will be a capital in the Millenial Kingdom in Jerusalem and in Missouri.

[BigJulie]

The only thing I can remember reading is:

1. Joseph Smith and early Mormonism were Millenialists - and truly believed they were paving the way for Christ's Second Advent.

2. Some Mormons believe that Joseph Smith will also return and lead Mormons to Zion (Missouri). There will be a capital in the Millenial Kingdom in Jerusalem and in Missouri.

We believe that eventually, Missouri will be established as a place of refuge in the end.

Seeing as the western U.S. is basically one giant caldera 25,000 years past the time it should have ****n (please--do not quote this as a Mormon source, I have NEVER heard this spoken of in Mormon circles)---this is just my own understanding based on going to Yellowstone---what they expect, why it is overdue and what part of the U.S. they expect to be gone...well--Missouri MIGHT be in a safe zone. :)

[Billyray]

We believe that eventually, Missouri will be established as a place of refuge in the end.


Why do you think that there is such a lack of teaching in end times prophecy in the LDS church especially given the fact that you have so called prophets that should be able to guide you in this area?

[BigJulie]

Why do you think that there is such a lack of teaching in end times prophecy in the LDS church especially given the fact that you have so called prophets that should be able to guide you in this area?

We speak a lot about end-times stuff as we believe that the restoration of the gospel is end-time stuff.

[Billyray]

We speak a lot about end-times stuff as we believe that the restoration of the gospel is end-time stuff.

Do you believe that there will be a 7 year (or a 3 1/2 year) tribulation period that precedes the second coming of Christ?

Do you believe that there will appear a man called the Antichrist who will lead the world during this tribulation period?

[BigJulie]

Do you believe that there will be a 7 year (or a 3 1/2 year) tribulation period that precedes the second coming of Christ?

Do you believe that there will appear a man called the Antichrist who will lead the world during this tribulation period?

I believe there will be one main anti-christ and there will be a difficult time prior to the second coming. Which year period is it?

And do you think the four horses spoken of in Revelations have something to do with this? I don't.

[Billyray]

I believe there will be one main anti-christ and there will be a difficult time prior to the second coming. Which year period is it?

And do you think the four horses spoken of in Revelations have something to do with this? I don't.
As a note Christians do have varying opinions on end times.

There is a 7 year tribulation but some consider only the last half of this seven years which is 3 1/2 years as the tribulation or great tribulation. And yes the 4 horseman take place during this tribulation period.

What about the Jewish Temple do you believe that it will be rebuilt on the temple mount prior to the second coming?

[BigJulie]

As a note Christians do have varying opinions on end times.

There is a 7 year tribulation but some consider only the last half of this seven years which is 3 1/2 years as the tribulation or great tribulation. And yes the 4 horseman take place during this tribulation period.

What about the Jewish Temple do you believe that it will be rebuilt on the temple mount prior to the second coming?

First off, I don't se the seven seals representing 7 years (or 3 and 1/2) years of tribulation.

Second, I don't read the horses taking place in the tribulation.

Third, I do believe the temple will be rebuilt.

I read up on a Christian website regarding the four horsemen and the anti-christ stuff you noted. I don't agree with any of it. (And that is not from LDS teachings or Christian teachings--it strickly has to do with my reading of Revelations. It is not that hard of a read and I think people read into it more than they should.)

[Billyray]

First off, I don't se the seven seals representing 7 years (or 3 and 1/2) years of tribulation.

Second, I don't read the horses taking place in the tribulation.

Third, I do believe the temple will be rebuilt.

I read up on a Christian website regarding the four horsemen and the anti-christ stuff you noted. I don't agree with any of it. (And that is not from LDS teachings or Christian teachings--it strickly has to do with my reading of Revelations. It is not that hard of a read and I think people read into it more than they should.)
What about the two witnesses what is your belief about them?

[BigJulie]

What about the two witnesses what is your belief about them?

What?............

What does that have to do with the four horsemen?

[Billyray]

What?............


The two witnesses in Revelation. What is your take on them?

[BigJulie]

The two witnesses in Revelation. What is your take on them?

Just as it reads. They will be the start of the quickening/resurrection--I believe as they are resurrected and overcome death. (Although the quickening began officially with Christ.)---some christian websites have it as the jews and gentiles. Some have it as the jews and the "church." Others have the witnesses as symbolizing other things entirely. I think we can safely say from the reading that there will be two witnesses who die, lie in the street, and are resurrected--much to the displeasure of the onlookers.

I have been reading up a little on EV's description of the end-times. I have heard different accounts. I think personally too much time is spent worrying about it as we will all personally experience our own end-time, so to speak.

As far as the Book of Revelations, I believe it gives a grand over-view, not just of the end-times. Do you think it speaks only of the end-times?

[Billyray]

I think we can safely say from the reading that there will be two witnesses who die, lie in the street, and are resurrected--much to the displeasure of the onlookers.


Do you believe that these witnesses will witness for 3 1/2 years--which just so happens to be the same length of the great tribulation--witness in and around Jerusalem and then die and lie in the street? Do you believe these two prophets will be Jewish or LDS?

[BigJulie]

Do you believe that these witnesses will witness for 3 1/2 years--which just so happens to be the same length of the great tribulation--witness in and around Jerusalem and then die and lie in the street? Do you believe these two prophets will be Jewish or LDS?

Billyray---it is amazing to me the lengths you go to change the subject. I guess I can just ***ume that you really have no idea about the four horsemen and therefore are trying to go to a place in revelations that is more spelled out.

What does it matter what I believe regarding the witnesses? I'll I read is that you really don't know what you are talking about regarding the four horsemen and so are changing the subject--and have ignored the other thread we were on and started a completely new one in an attempt to change the subject to what a more comfortable place for you. *sigh*

Here is my last thread from the one that made you uncomfortable enough that you started a new thread:


Not from Adam to the end times---from the beginning, before the earth until after the earth--the whole thing.

If you read it with that understanding, it makes a lot of sense.

Note to readers: Billyray was discussing the white horse and for some reason decided it was a place he did not want to go---so has created a new thread in an attempts to redirect it another way. *sheesh*

[Billyray]

Billyray---it is amazing to me the lengths you go to change the subject.

I am not trying to change the subject. My intent with this thread was to find out what you and other LDS believe about the end times rather than talk about what I believe.

[Billyray]

http://www.gotquestions.org/two-witnesses.html

Question: "Who are the four horsemen of the apocalypse?"

Answer: The four horsemen of the Apocalypse are described in Revelation chapter 6, verses 1-8. The four horsemen are symbolic descriptions of different events which will take place in the end times. The first horseman of the Apocalypse is mentioned in Revelation 6:2: “I looked, and there before me was a white horse! Its rider held a bow, and he was given a crown, and he rode out as a conqueror bent on conquest.” This first horseman likely refers to the Antichrist, who will be given authority and will conquer all who oppose him. The antichrist is the false imitator of the true Christ, who will also return on a white horse (Revelation 19:11-16).

The second horseman of the Apocalypse appears in Revelation 6:4, “Then another horse came out, a fiery red one. Its rider was given power to take peace from the earth and to make men slay each other. To him was given a large sword.” The second horseman refers to terrible warfare that will break out in the end times. The third horseman is described in Revelation 6:5-6, “...and there before me was a black horse! Its rider was holding a pair of scales in his hand. Then I heard what sounded like a voice among the four living creatures, saying, ‘A quart of wheat for a day's wages, and three quarts of barley for a day's wages, and do not damage the oil and the wine!’” The third horseman of the Apocalypse refers to a great famine that will take place, likely as a result of the wars from the second horseman.

The fourth horseman is mentioned in Revelation 6:8, “I looked, and there before me was a pale horse! Its rider was named Death, and Hades was following close behind him. They were given power over a fourth of the earth to kill by sword, famine and plague, and by the wild beasts of the earth.” The fourth horseman of the Apocalypse is symbolic of death and devastation. It seems to be a combination of the previous horsemen. The fourth horseman of the Apocalypse will bring further warfare and terrible famines along with awful plagues and diseases. What is most amazing, or perhaps terrifying, is that the four horsemen of the Apocalypse are just “precursors” of even worse judgments that come later in the tribulation (Revelation chapters 8–9 and 16).

[Billyray]

Note to readers: Billyray was discussing the white horse and for some reason decided it was a place he did not want to go---so has created a new thread in an attempts to redirect it another way. *sheesh*

I have already given you my view on this BJ that this is the antichrist who will rule during the tribulation. But as I said I don't want this thread to be about my beliefs but about LDS beliefs.

Who do LDS believe is on the white horse?

[Billyray]

What does it matter what I believe regarding the witnesses?

I am simply curious what the LDS point of view is regarding the witnesses. Do you believe these two prophets will be two LDS prophets walking the streets of Jerusalem?

[BigJulie]

http://www.gotquestions.org/two-witnesses.html

Question: "Who are the four horsemen of the apocalypse?"

Answer: The four horsemen of the Apocalypse are described in Revelation chapter 6, verses 1-8. The four horsemen are symbolic descriptions of different events which will take place in the end times. The first horseman of the Apocalypse is mentioned in Revelation 6:2: “I looked, and there before me was a white horse! Its rider held a bow, and he was given a crown, and he rode out as a conqueror bent on conquest.” This first horseman likely refers to the Antichrist, who will be given authority and will conquer all who oppose him. The antichrist is the false imitator of the true Christ, who will also return on a white horse (Revelation 19:11-16).

The second horseman of the Apocalypse appears in Revelation 6:4, “Then another horse came out, a fiery red one. Its rider was given power to take peace from the earth and to make men slay each other. To him was given a large sword.” The second horseman refers to terrible warfare that will break out in the end times. The third horseman is described in Revelation 6:5-6, “...and there before me was a black horse! Its rider was holding a pair of scales in his hand. Then I heard what sounded like a voice among the four living creatures, saying, ‘A quart of wheat for a day's wages, and three quarts of barley for a day's wages, and do not damage the oil and the wine!’” The third horseman of the Apocalypse refers to a great famine that will take place, likely as a result of the wars from the second horseman.

The fourth horseman is mentioned in Revelation 6:8, “I looked, and there before me was a pale horse! Its rider was named Death, and Hades was following close behind him. They were given power over a fourth of the earth to kill by sword, famine and plague, and by the wild beasts of the earth.” The fourth horseman of the Apocalypse is symbolic of death and devastation. It seems to be a combination of the previous horsemen. The fourth horseman of the Apocalypse will bring further warfare and terrible famines along with awful plagues and diseases. What is most amazing, or perhaps terrifying, is that the four horsemen of the Apocalypse are just “precursors” of even worse judgments that come later in the tribulation (Revelation chapters 8–9 and 16).

Reading up--not all Christians agree with this. As far as LDS beliefs about the four horsemen---well, like most LDS--we are taught to read, ponder, and pray about the scriptures.

My take is that the four horsemen do not speak of the tribulation but to the world in general from the beginning to the end.

[James Banta]

Billyray---it is amazing to me the lengths you go to change the subject. I guess I can just ***ume that you really have no idea about the four horsemen and therefore are trying to go to a place in revelations that is more spelled out.

What does it matter what I believe regarding the witnesses? I'll I read is that you really don't know what you are talking about regarding the four horsemen and so are changing the subject--and have ignored the other thread we were on and started a completely new one in an attempt to change the subject to what a more comfortable place for you. *sigh*

Here is my last thread from the one that made you uncomfortable enough that you started a new thread:



Note to readers: Billyray was discussing the white horse and for some reason decided it was a place he did not want to go---so has created a new thread in an attempts to redirect it another way. *sheesh*


Billy was discussing the Great tribulation.. The coming of the Antichrist and all that is prophesied to happen before the return of Jesus as King.. The two witnesses are part of that.. There has been no change of subject in the discussion.. IHS jim

[James Banta]

I am simply curious what the LDS point of view is regarding the witnesses. Do you believe these two prophets will be two LDS prophets walking the streets of Jerusalem?

You do know that the LDS see the seven seal as seven thousand years of God's dealing with men on the earth? Basically the history of man.. I have never seen the results if the seals as described in the Bible occurring in 1,000 year increments but the LDS don't see the seals as end time process.. Their interpretation is quite different than Christian teachings on almost the whole of the Revelation.. IHS jim

[James Banta]

I am simply curious what the LDS point of view is regarding the witnesses. Do you believe these two prophets will be two LDS prophets walking the streets of Jerusalem?

You do know that the LDS see the seven seal as seven thousand years of God's dealing with men on the earth? Basically the history of man.. I have never seen the results if the seals as described in the Bible occurring in 1,000 year increments but the LDS don't see the seals as end time process.. Their interpretation is quite different than Christian teachings on almost the whole of the Revelation.. See Cleon Skousen's 1,000 years books series. IHS jim

[Billyray]

You do know that the LDS see the seven seal as seven thousand years of God's dealing with men on the earth?

I don't think I ever heard that when I was LDS. That is interesting. But I wonder how the events and times matches up, I don't see how this would work.

[James Banta]

I don't think I ever heard that when I was LDS. That is interesting. But I wonder how the events and times matches up, I don't see how this would work.

Like most all of their Biblical interpretation IT DOESN'T WORK.. Just in case there is a bit of a push back on "An ANTI mormon telling them what their church teaches here is my authority right from LDS.org "John recorded seeing a book sealed with seven seals, each seal representing one thousand years of the earth’s temporal history (Study Helps/The Guide to the Scriptures/
Revelation of John). I doubt that all LDS understand what their church teaches about the Seven Seals that only the Lamb is worthy to break open.. IHS jim

[Russianwolfe]

I don't think I ever heard that when I was LDS. That is interesting. But I wonder how the events and times matches up, I don't see how this would work.

Then you never read the D&C.

Marvin

[Billyray]

Then you never read the D&C.

Marvin

What section talks about the seven seals of revelation and how this applies to before the foundation of the earth through the second coming? Is that what you believe Marvin?

[Russianwolfe]

What section talks about the seven seals of revelation and how this applies to before the foundation of the earth through the second coming? Is that what you believe Marvin?

You are the one whom claims to have been LDS. And then you make it known that you have never heard that the seals represent a thousand yearsnofnthe earth's history. Another gap in the truth of who you really are.

Marvin

[Billyray]

You are the one whom claims to have been LDS. And then you make it known that you have never heard that the seals represent a thousand yearsnofnthe earth's history. Another gap in the truth of who you really are.

Marvin
I was simply being honest with you Marvin-- over the many years in the church I never recall this being discussed once in Sacrament meeting, nor in Sunday School, nor in seminary.

D and C 77:7

Q. What are we to understand by the seven seals with which it was sealed?
A. We are to understand that the first seal contains the things of the bfirst thousand years, and the csecond also of the second thousand years, and so on until the seventh.


Marvin perhaps you can explain how each seal lines up with each thousand year period because I can't see how this would work at all. To me this is quite odd.

[Billyray]

Revelation 6
The Seals
*I watched as the Lamb opened the first of the seven seals. Then I heard one of the four living creatures say in a voice like thunder, “Come!” 2*I looked, and there before me was a white horse! Its rider held a bow, and he was given a crown, and he rode out as a conqueror bent on conquest.


So the guy on the white horse is Christ according to BigJ. And this first seal relates for 1000 years starting with Adam. Can you explain what Christ did during this thousand year period and then what happened to him after the thousand years was up?

[James Banta]

You are the one whom claims to have been LDS. And then you make it known that you have never heard that the seals represent a thousand yearsnofnthe earth's history. Another gap in the truth of who you really are.

Marvin

That is the same thing you have said about me as I have said that mormonism doesn't hold to the Bible.. When I explained Bible truth you have said I don't know mormonism.. When I have examined mormon doctrines in the light of the Bible you are convinced that I don't know what I am talking about and was never LDS. Now here you are again accusing Billy of that because he wasn't taught one false LDS teaching.. I would say that maybe 60 of 70% of LDS people know anything of this doctrine.. You have yo be VERY well studied to know about this rather fringe teaching.. If a Christian reads revelation it is clear that these are end time occurrences. As an example:


Rev 6:7-8
And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see.
And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

Can you look into history and show me what era this happened in? One thousand years period where a fourth part of the earth, was killed with sword, with hunger, and by the beasts of the earth? I have never heard of such a era.. According to LDS interpretation that would have been 4,000 years after Adam. I don't remember a quarter of the whole population of the world dying in such a way in any time from Noah through Babylonian captivity. If you are to teach that as truth point to each seals historic reference. I know why you don't.. IT CAN'T BE DONE! This interpretation of the scripture is like most of LDS interpretations it is of men and not of GOD.. IHS jim

[BigJulie]

Revelation 6
The Seals
*I watched as the Lamb opened the first of the seven seals. Then I heard one of the four living creatures say in a voice like thunder, “Come!” 2*I looked, and there before me was a white horse! Its rider held a bow, and he was given a crown, and he rode out as a conqueror bent on conquest.


So the guy on the white horse is Christ according to BigJ. And this first seal relates for 1000 years starting with Adam. Can you explain what Christ did during this thousand year period and then what happened to him after the thousand years was up?

Without Christ, there would be no Adam. With the birth of Adam, death, famine, war, all came into the world. And Christ will conquer and overcome them all.

Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him [was] called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

In both Revelations 6 and 19, it speaks of a rider on a white horse--one who holds a bow and a crown and Rev 6:2 "went forth conquering, and to conquer" and in 19, he does judge and make war. I see this as discussing the same thing.

[RealFakeHair]

Without Christ, there would be no Adam. With the birth of Adam, death, famine, war, all came into the world. And Christ will conquer and overcome them all.

Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him [was] called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

In both Revelations 6 and 19, it speaks of a rider on a white horse--one who holds a bow and a crown and Rev 6:2 "went forth conquering, and to conquer" and in 19, he does judge and make war. I see this as discussing the same thing.

it will be a white M1 army tank.
each generations has a new twist on the end of the world, and this generation has dec 21,2012, and when that dates p*** there will be a new one

[Billyray]

Without Christ, there would be no Adam. With the birth of Adam, death, famine, war, all came into the world. And Christ will conquer and overcome them all.

Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him [was] called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

In both Revelations 6 and 19, it speaks of a rider on a white horse--one who holds a bow and a crown and Rev 6:2 "went forth conquering, and to conquer" and in 19, he does judge and make war. I see this as discussing the same thing.

So you have Christ come on the scene for a thousand years starting with Adam and conquers. What does Christ conquer? And where does he go after the thousand years is up?

[Billyray]

each generations has a new twist on the end of the world, and this generation has dec 21,2012, and when that dates p*** there will be a new one

I don't know of any Christians whou have come up with this date rather this is a Mayan calander contrivance.

[RealFakeHair]

I don't know of any Christians whou have come up with this date rather this is a Mayan calander contrivance.

It's not only the Mayan's who had a date many groups and persons of faith and none faith had dates in the past. I think the Jehovah witness had the last date in 1975, and then there was the peacher who had a date come and go and then he gave another date back in October that came and went.
I am still waiting on Joseph Smith jr. date to come, are we still in the 1800s?:confused:

[BigJulie]

So you have Christ come on the scene for a thousand years starting with Adam and conquers. What does Christ conquer? And where does he go after the thousand years is up?

No, Adam is the prophet of the first 1000 years (figuratively). Christ is there throughout all the seals---but the beginning, begins with Christ. Is there anything to say that the horses disappear once let loose?

[Billyray]

No, Adam is the prophet of the first 1000 years (figuratively). Christ is there throughout all the seals---but the beginning, begins with Christ. Is there anything to say that the horses disappear once let loose?



Revelation 6
The Seals
*I watched as the Lamb opened the first of the seven seals. Then I heard one of the four living creatures say in a voice like thunder, “Come!” 2*I looked, and there before me was a white horse! Its rider held a bow, and he was given a crown, and he rode out as a conqueror bent on conquest.



D and C 77:7

Q. What are we to understand by the seven seals with which it was sealed?
A. We are to understand that the first seal contains the things of the bfirst thousand years, and the csecond also of the second thousand years, and so on until the seventh.


So the guy on the white horse is Adam?

[BigJulie]

So the guy on the white horse is Adam?

No, each seal represents 1000 years. The one on the white horse---as far as I read it--is Christ. You are making the mistake of thinking the horse is the seal or the rider is the seal, but they just come out when the seal opens. And the horse and the rider, once let loose remains. You don't think that war and death and Christ's victory only exists during the tribulation, right?

For example, the second seal---taking peace from the earth---are you stating that this will only happen during the tribulation? What about right now? Do you think there is peace throughout the earth?

BTW, Billyray, your lack of knowledge of the D&C until now goes to prove the point that regardless of your claims of being a missionary---you don't know our scriptures or our beliefs.

[Billyray]

No, each seal represents 1000 years.

Right. Which is what D and C 77 says.



The one on the white horse---as far as I read it--is Christ.

Which you have said in the past. But then you said in a prior post that "No, Adam is the prophet of the first 1000 years (figuratively)." So I thought that you changed it from Christ to Adam.



You are making the mistake of thinking the horse is the seal or the rider is the seal, but they just come out when the seal opens.

So Christ comes out during the time of Adam.



And the horse and the rider, once let loose remains.

But this violates the one thousand year time from as noted in D and C 77 which says: "We are to understand that the first seal contains the things of the first thousand years"

[Billyray]

BTW, Billyray, your lack of knowledge of the D&C until now goes to prove the point that regardless of your claims of being a missionary---you don't know our scriptures or our beliefs.

I don't think I am alone on not really knowing about this specific teaching in the D and C. You seem to be having a difficult time with it yourself.

[RealFakeHair]

No, each seal represents 1000 years. The one on the white horse---as far as I read it--is Christ. You are making the mistake of thinking the horse is the seal or the rider is the seal, but they just come out when the seal opens. And the horse and the rider, once let loose remains. You don't think that war and death and Christ's victory only exists during the tribulation, right?

For example, the second seal---taking peace from the earth---are you stating that this will only happen during the tribulation? What about right now? Do you think there is peace throughout the earth?

BTW, Billyray, your lack of knowledge of the D&C until now goes to prove the point that regardless of your claims of being a missionary---you don't know our scriptures or our beliefs.

No one understands it all, I would go further and say, no one as to this date understands 99% of Revelation. So many have failed in the past even your prophet Joseph Smith jr failed with his end of the world prophecy.

[BigJulie]

I don't think I am alone on not really knowing about this specific teaching in the D and C. You seem to be having a difficult time with it yourself.

Not at all. You want the seals to be a nice little package that opens and shuts, rather than an opening, a representation of the opening, and what occurs from that point forward.

And I am amazed you think that we must have the tribulation before death, war, famine, etc come to the earth. You should know better just be reading the news.

[BigJulie]

No one understands it all, I would go further and say, no one as to this date understands 99% of Revelation. So many have failed in the past even your prophet Joseph Smith jr failed with his end of the world prophecy.

I don't think so---I think he understood it.

[RealFakeHair]

I don't think so---I think he understood it.

I don't see how anyone could remain mormon and believe otherwise.
Joseph Smith jr. as a false prophet is # 1098 of the many reasons why I find him to be Fraud. I hope you don't asks me to list them all:cool:

[Billyray]

Not at all. You want the seals to be a nice little package that opens and shuts, rather than an opening, a representation of the opening, and what occurs from that point forward.

Actually I just want you to explain it to me and thus far you seem to be having some difficutly. But that aside D and C 77 says "We are to understand that the first seal contains the things of the first thousand years"

Start from scratch if you need to and tell me about the first seal, who is the rider--which I ***ume you will still say Christ-- and what exactly does Christ do in this first thousand years, and where does Christ go after the thousand years since according to D and C all of that seal in contained in the first thousand years.

[Billyray]

And I am amazed you think that we must have the tribulation before death, war, famine, etc come to the earth. You should know better just be reading the news.
Your statement shows that you are completely unaware of my beliefs. But this thread is not about what I believe but about what you believe.

[Billyray]

Jim brought this up already but I will repeat it.

Rev 6:7 When the Lamb opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature say, “Come!” 8 I looked, and there before me was a pale horse! Its rider was named Death, and Hades was following close behind him. They were given power over a fourth of the earth to kill by sword, famine and plague, and by the wild beasts of the earth.


Did 1/4 of the people on the earth get killed during the 3000-4000 year time frame after Adam?

[Billyray]

Thus far we have for LDS end times thinking that it will get really bad then Christ comes back. Okay fair enough. It that it or is there more that you are not telling me?

Below are several endtime events that some (but not all) Christians believe will take place prior to the second coming of Christ. Can you tell me if you believe in any or all of the following and how would you order them as occuring per LDS thinking?

1. Wars and rumors of wars
2. Rapture
3. Antichrist
4. Antichrist desecrates the rebuilt Jewish temple
5. Two witnesses (prophets) who teach around Jerusalem
6. Battle of Armegeddon
7. Second comimg of Christ

[BigJulie]

Jim brought this up already but I will repeat it.

Rev 6:7 When the Lamb opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature say, “Come!” 8 I looked, and there before me was a pale horse! Its rider was named Death, and Hades was following close behind him. They were given power over a fourth of the earth to kill by sword, famine and plague, and by the wild beasts of the earth.


Did 1/4 of the people on the earth get killed during the 3000-4000 year time frame after Adam?

Once again, you are making the mistake that what is opened in the seal happens only within the seal rather than it being another dispensation opened.

[BigJulie]

1. Wars and rumors of wars--will happen continually up until the end-time
2. Rapture--we don't quite believe in a rapture the way EV's do.
3. Antichrist--there will be many anti-christs, but one main one prior to the second coming.
4. Antichrist desecrates the rebuilt Jewish temple--haven't heard this one. The Jewish temple has been built twice already and destroyed twice already.
5. Two witnesses (prophets) who teach around Jerusalem. Agree
6. Battle of Armegeddon. The battle between good and evil will continue and get worse and worse until the second coming.
7. Second comimg of Christ--agree.

[BigJulie]

You are the one whom claims to have been LDS. And then you make it known that you have never heard that the seals represent a thousand yearsnofnthe earth's history. Another gap in the truth of who you really are.

Marvin

I agree---this shows his knowledge of church teachings is very limited.

[Billyray]

Once again, you are making the mistake that what is opened in the seal happens only within the seal rather than it being another dispensation opened.

D and C 77:7
Q. What are we to understand by the seven seals with which it was sealed?
A. We are to understand that the first seal contains the things of the first thousand years, and the second also of the second thousand years, and so on until the seventh.

But that is what it says in this verse. Is this verse wrong?

[Billyray]

4. Antichrist desecrates the rebuilt Jewish temple--haven't heard this one. The Jewish temple has been built twice already and destroyed twice already.


2 Thessalonians 2

The Man of Lawlessness

1 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, 2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter —***erting that the day of the Lord has already come. 3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness[a] is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.

[Billyray]

2. Rapture--we don't quite believe in a rapture the way EV's do.


How is it different?

[Billyray]

6. Battle of Armegeddon. The battle between good and evil will continue and get worse and worse until the second coming.

So you don't believe in a literal battle just before the second coming of Christ?

[Russianwolfe]

You were the one who claimed to have never heard of this before. I knew about this the first time I read the D&C. I don't know how to understand this. But it does gives us a different idea of how to understand what the seals mean. Beyond that is only speculation.

If you never heard this discussed in Sunday School, then you never attended Gospel Doctrine, the adult Sunday School cl***. This is discussed every 4 years when the D&C is studied. So you must have missed out on this. Gives me pause.

I think the seals and the time they represent are symbolic and are not meant to be taken literally or exactly. It might be more important to see what happens at the opening of each seal than to worry what period of 1,000 years it was suppose to be.

Marvin



I was simply being honest with you Marvin-- over the many years in the church I never recall this being discussed once in Sacrament meeting, nor in Sunday School, nor in seminary.

D and C 77:7

Q. What are we to understand by the seven seals with which it was sealed?
A. We are to understand that the first seal contains the things of the bfirst thousand years, and the csecond also of the second thousand years, and so on until the seventh.


Marvin perhaps you can explain how each seal lines up with each thousand year period because I can't see how this would work at all. To me this is quite odd.

[Billyray]

I think the seals and the time they represent are symbolic and are not meant to be taken literally or exactly. It might be more important to see what happens at the opening of each seal than to worry what period of 1,000 years it was suppose to be.



But the verse in verse 7 clearly states "We are to understand that the first seal contains the things of the first thousand years, and the second also of the second thousand years, and so on until the seventh.". Marvin this seems clear as written. Why are you attempting to change what is written?

[Russianwolfe]

But the verse in verse 7 clearly states "We are to understand that the first seal contains the things of the first thousand years, and the second also of the second thousand years, and so on until the seventh.". Marvin this seems clear as written. Why are you attempting to change what is written?

Did I change or even suggest that something should be changed? I gave an interpretation. Learn the difference.

Marvin

[Billyray]

Did I change or even suggest that something should be changed? I gave an interpretation. Learn the difference.

Marvin

Marvin it says

"We are to understand that the first seal contains the things of the first thousand years, and the second also of the second thousand years. . ."

The first seal CONTAINS the things of the first thousand years. This couldn't be any more clear yet you are attempting to change what is said. Why don't you just admit that Joseph screwed up on this one.

[BigJulie]

How is it different?

Well, from what I understand--you believe (correct me if I am wrong) that when Christ comes a large group of people will go meet him in the sky and then they will come down together.

[BigJulie]

So you don't believe in a literal battle just before the second coming of Christ?

I believe the battle has been on-going and began before the earth began. So--what do you mean by literal battle? There is a literal battle right now between good and evil.

Rev 12:7 ¶ And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

Rev 12:8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

[Billyray]

Well, from what I understand--you believe (correct me if I am wrong) that when Christ comes a large group of people will go meet him in the sky and then they will come down together.
Correct but there is an interval between going up and coming back down.

You don't believe that you will meet Christ in the air? And what is your belief about the rapture?

[BigJulie]

Marvin it says

"We are to understand that the first seal contains the things of the first thousand years, and the second also of the second thousand years. . ."

The first seal CONTAINS the things of the first thousand years. This couldn't be any more clear yet you are attempting to change what is said. Why don't you just admit that Joseph screwed up on this one.

Billyray, I don't think of it as literally 1000 years. I see it as a dispensation of time. Each thousand years represents a dispensation.

You are forgetting that the question is being asked about the symbollism of Revelations and is being answered in like manner.

2Pe 3:8 But, beloved, be not ig.norant of this one thing, that one day [is] with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Look at it this way---7 days of creation---and seven days (a thousand years a piece) of the life of the earth. This type of pattern is the norm of how God does things (at least as far as I have ever seen.)

The thousand years of rest in the millenium represent the one day of rest of creation. You see that right?

[Billyray]

I believe the battle has been on-going and began before the earth began. So--what do you mean by literal battle?

Where people come together and fight.

[BigJulie]

Where people come together and fight.

Is that not already happening on a spiritual level already? Did this war begin long ago?

[Billyray]

Is that not already happening on a spiritual level already? Did this war begin long ago?
I am talking about a real battle.

[BigJulie]

I am talking about a real battle.

I don't think this really matters. I don't try to set God's words in the stone of my mind. The Pharisees rejected Christ because they had a picture in their minds of exactly what a Savior was supposed to look like and what He should do for them when in reality, they didn't understand it.

Likewise, when it comes to prophecies, I keep an open mind. :)

[Billyray]

I don't think this really matters. I don't try to set God's words in the stone of my mind. The Pharisees rejected Christ because they had a picture in their minds of exactly what a Savior was supposed to look like and what He should do for them when in reality, they didn't understand it.

Likewise, when it comes to prophecies, I keep an open mind. :)

From my point of view Revelation doesn't have any real meaning to you. Would that be a fair ***essment or not?

[BigJulie]

From my point of view Revelation doesn't have any real meaning to you. Would that be a fair ***essment or not?

No--not at all. Revelation has real meaning for me. I just don't read it as you do. And you never answered me as to whether you understand that the pattern of this world is patterned after creation where the 1000 years of peace coincide with the seventh day of creation.

[Billyray]

No--not at all. Revelation has real meaning for me.
But it is vague and doesn't even conform to what Joseph has layed out in D and C 77. The battles are vague, the seals are vague, everything is vague and has no real meaning. At least that is the way that I see it. BTW do you think God gave us scripture that was not meant for us to understand more than you seem to understand it?

[Billyray]

I believe the battle has been on-going and began before the earth began. So--what do you mean by literal battle? There is a literal battle right now between good and evil.

Encyclopedia of Mormonism--Armageddon


". . .Armageddon is destined to play a future role in world events. It is LDS belief that the prophecies of the scriptures will be fulfilled and that armies representing the nations of the earth will be gathered in the valley of Megiddo. It may be that given the extent of the conflict, Armageddon is a symbolic representation of worldwide conflict centered in this geographic area. The scriptures state that when the battle is at its zenith, Christ, the King of Kings, will appear on the Mount of Olives accompanied by dramatic upheavals. Subsequently, the armies spoken of by John will be destroyed, followed by Christ's millennial reign. . ."
http://eom.byu.edu/index.php/Armageddon

[BigJulie]

But it is vague and doesn't even conform to what Joseph has layed out in D and C 77. The battles are vague, the seals are vague, everything is vague and has no real meaning. At least that is the way that I see it. BTW do you think God gave us scripture that was not meant for us to understand more than you seem to understand it?

...Billyray says as he ignores the question I asked regarding the 1000 years of peace being patterned after the day of rest of the creation...;)

[Billyray]

...Billyray says as he ignores the question I asked regarding the 1000 years of peace being patterned after the day of rest of the creation.)

BJ this thread is not about what I believe it is about LDS beliefs.

[BigJulie]

Encyclopedia of Mormonism--Armageddon


". . .Armageddon is destined to play a future role in world events. It is LDS belief that the prophecies of the scriptures will be fulfilled and that armies representing the nations of the earth will be gathered in the valley of Megiddo. It may be that given the extent of the conflict, Armageddon is a symbolic representation of worldwide conflict centered in this geographic area. The scriptures state that when the battle is at its zenith, Christ, the King of Kings, will appear on the Mount of Olives accompanied by dramatic upheavals. Subsequently, the armies spoken of by John will be destroyed, followed by Christ's millennial reign. . ."
http://eom.byu.edu/index.php/Armageddon

Ahhh, you have found some scholarly stuff about Armageddon at BYU. As noted, I like to keep my mind open about such prophecies. ;) Find me the scripture on this one and I will agree. Otherwise, it is our best scholarly understanding (but not doctrine.)

[BigJulie]

BJ this thread is not about what I believe it is about LDS beliefs.

Yes---but in light of your own beliefs, ***uming you understand that 1000 years of peace are patterned after the 7th day of creation, then you would also understand that the 6000 years before that also have significance and that it does not speak of the tribulation but rather the earth as a whole.

Or do you think that the only part that matches is the last 1000 years?

[Billyray]

Ahhh, you have found some scholarly stuff about Armageddon at BYU. As noted, I like to keep my mind open about such prophecies. ;) Find me the scripture on this one and I will agree. Otherwise, it is our best scholarly understanding (but not doctrine.)

LDS Bible Dictionary

"Armageddon*
Armageddon. A Greek transliteration from the Hebrew Har Megiddon, or Mountain of Megiddo. The valley of Megiddo is in the western portion of the plain of Esdraelon 50 miles north of Jerusalem. Several times the valley of Megiddo was the scene of violent and crucial battles during O.T. times (Judg. 5:19; 2 Kgs. 9:27; 23:29). A great and final conflict taking place at the second coming of the Lord is called the battle of Armageddon because it will be started in the same locale and will be decisive. See Zech. 11–14, especially 12:11; Rev. 16:14–21."

[BigJulie]

LDS Bible Dictionary

"Armageddon*
Armageddon. A Greek transliteration from the Hebrew Har Megiddon, or Mountain of Megiddo. The valley of Megiddo is in the western portion of the plain of Esdraelon 50 miles north of Jerusalem. Several times the valley of Megiddo was the scene of violent and crucial battles during O.T. times (Judg. 5:19; 2 Kgs. 9:27; 23:29). A great and final conflict taking place at the second coming of the Lord is called the battle of Armageddon because it will be started in the same locale and will be decisive. See Zech. 11–14, especially 12:11; Rev. 16:14–21."

Once again--a spiritual battle or a physical one? Remember, the Jews thought that Christ had come and would lead them in a great physical battle or at least free them from the Romans and missed the great spiritual battle He won.

[Billyray]

Yes---but in light of your own beliefs, ***uming you understand that 1000 years of peace are patterned after the 7th day of creation, then you would also understand that the 6000 years before that also have significance and that it does not speak of the tribulation but rather the earth as a whole.

I don't understand what you are trying to say. But anyway the tribulation is a seven year period that culminates in the second coming of Christ.

[Billyray]

Once again--a spiritual battle or a physical one?

A physical one that just precedes the second coming of Christ. Which is what is said in the quote above "A great and final conflict taking place at the second coming of the Lord is called the battle of Armageddon because it will be started in the same locale and will be decisive."

[BigJulie]

A physical one that just precedes the second coming of Christ. Which is what is said in the quote above "A great and final conflict taking place at the second coming of the Lord is called the battle of Armageddon because it will be started in the same locale and will be decisive."

I don't see anything in there that depects it must necessarily be physical.

You are still ignoring whether or not you see a correlation with 1000 years of peace with the last day of the creation.

[BigJulie]

I don't understand what you are trying to say. But anyway the tribulation is a seven year period that culminates in the second coming of Christ.

I thought you said "3 and 1/2" at one point. And what about the 1000 years of peace---does the 1000 years of peace correlated with the 7th day of creation?

[Billyray]

I don't see anything in there that depects it must necessarily be physical.



LDS Bible Dictionary

"Armageddon*
Armageddon. A Greek transliteration from the Hebrew Har Megiddon, or Mountain of Megiddo. The valley of Megiddo is in the western portion of the plain of Esdraelon 50 miles north of Jerusalem. Several times the valley of Megiddo was the scene of violent and crucial battles during O.T. times (Judg. 5:19; 2 Kgs. 9:27; 23:29).A great and final conflict taking place at the second coming of the Lord is called the battle of Armageddon because it will be started in the same locale and will be decisive. See Zech. 11–14, especially 12:11; Rev. 16:14–21."
Note the highlighted part.

[Billyray]

You are still ignoring whether or not you see a correlation with 1000 years of peace with the last day of the creation.

I see the connection that you are trying to make in that the last day is a day of rest and the millennium for the most part is peaceful but I don't see why you think this is relevant here.

[Billyray]

I thought you said "3 and 1/2" at one point.
7 years with the last 3 1/2 being called the great tribulation prior to the second coming of Christ and the start of the millennium.

[BigJulie]

I see the connection that you are trying to make in that the last day is a day of rest and the millennium for the most part is peaceful but I don't see why you think this is relevant here.

If you don't see the relevance, than you do not see my perspective.

[BigJulie]

Note the highlighted part.

If I compare this to what the Jews thought during the time of Christ, they might have thought the battle would start in Jerusalem and be decisive. I just refuse to read into it as much as you do and prefer to keep an open mind about how God will fulfill His prophecies.

[Billyray]

If you don't see the relevance, than you do not see my perspective.

I certainly don't see any relevance from anything that you have told me so far.

Why is the millenium relevant to things that we are talking about which take place prior to the second coming of Christ?

[Billyray]

If I compare this to what the Jews thought during the time of Christ, they might have thought the battle would start in Jerusalem and be decisive. I just refuse to read into it as much as you do and prefer to keep an open mind about how God will fulfill His prophecies.
But your own Bible dictionary talks about it.

[BigJulie]

But your own Bible dictionary talks about it.

Billyray, you are putting your own paradigm over the Bible dictionary. You THINK you know what it means and therefore you conclude you do rather than understanding that you are putting your own bias on it and then interpretting it to mean what you want. I see what it says. I also do not see anything that states itis a decisive physical battle. I see the atonement as a decisive battle at a decided location, and yet the battle was completely spiritual in nature. I just keep an open mind as exactly what is meant. God teaches us that His ways are not our ways and so, I keep an open mind.

[BigJulie]

I certainly don't see any relevance from anything that you have told me so far.

Why is the millenium relevant to things that we are talking about which take place prior to the second coming of Christ?

Why is the millenium relevant to prior to the millenium? What is what is prior to the millenium revelant to the millenium? If you don't get that, then--well, the whole of the Bible teachings is lost on you. Really? You really don't see the relevance of each part?

Do you see the relevance with the millenium with keeping the Sabbath day holy? Or is there no revelance to the creation, our existance today, or the millenium to you as well?

[Billyray]

Billyray, you are putting your own paradigm over the Bible dictionary.

BJ that is exactly what it says. What are you talking about?

[Billyray]

Why is the millenium relevant to prior to the millenium?
Right. If we are speaking about events that take place BEFORE the millenium then the millenium which takes place after the second coming isn't relevant to what we were discussing.

[Billyray]

Do you see the relevance with the millenium with keeping the Sabbath day holy?

What does this have anything to do with events that take place prior to the millenium?

[BigJulie]

BJ that is exactly what it says. What are you talking about?

I am going to ***ume that you have read Plato and the cave. Are you sure you are not seeing things from inside the cave? I am just saying that until I have that beatific experience, I will not ***ume I understand God fully on these future prophecies until I have experienced them.

[BigJulie]

Right. If we are speaking about events that take place BEFORE the millenium then the millenium which takes place after the second coming isn't relevant to what we were discussing.

My question was rhetorical. I asked it because it should be obvious the relevance of the pre and post millenial events. It would be like stating that a rainstorm is irrelevant to the rainbow.

[BigJulie]

What does this have anything to do with events that take place prior to the millenium?

Because God does things in patterns that are seen throughout the creation all the way to the millenium.

[Billyray]

I am going to ***ume that you have read Plato and the cave. Are you sure you are not seeing things from inside the cave? I am just saying that until I have that beatific experience, I will not ***ume I understand God fully on these future prophecies until I have experienced them.

What is wrong with understanding plain English?

[BigJulie]

What is wrong with understanding plain English?

Because when the Pharisees thought they understood plain English, they got it wrong.

1Cr 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

[Billyray]

Because when the Pharisees thought they understood plain English, they got it wrong.



So a person can't expect to read the NT and understand it. Is that what you are saying?

[Billyray]

Because when the Pharisees thought they understood plain English, they got it wrong.


I think that is a lame excuse for someone not being able to read plain English and understand it. Don't you?

[BigJulie]

I think that is a lame excuse for someone not being able to read plain English and understand it. Don't you?

No--learning from the past mistakes of those who thought they could read and understand minus the spirit (and yet they could not) is a good excuse to not do likewise.

Isa 55:9 For [as] the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

1Cr 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

There is good reason to keep an open mind when trying to understand the prophecies of God.

[Billyray]

There is good reason to keep an open mind when trying to understand the prophecies of God.

So you don't believe in the battle of Armegeddon as described in the LDS Bible Dictionary even though it is written as clear as day. Fair enough. But I believe it is something you don't believe rather that something the LDS church doesn't teach.

[Billyray]

http://ins***ute.lds.org/manuals/old-testament-ins***ute-student-manual-2/ot-in2-08-jer-ez-I.asp

Old Testament Student Manual
Enrichment I The Battle of Armageddon: A Prophetic View

". . .“At the very moment of the Second Coming of our Lord, ‘all nations’ shall be gathered ‘against Jerusalem to battle’ ( Zech. 11 ; 12 ; 13 ; 14 ), and the battle of Armageddon (obviously covering the entire area from Jerusalem to Megiddo, and perhaps more) will be in progress. As John expressed it, ‘the kings of the earth and of the whole world’ will be gathered ‘to the battle of that great day of God Almighty, . . . into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.’ Then Christ will ‘come as a thief,’ meaning unexpectedly, and the dramatic upheavals promised to accompany his return will take place. ( Rev. 16:14–21 .) It is incident to this battle of Armageddon that the Supper of the Great God shall take place ( Rev. 19:11–18 ), and it is the same battle described by Ezekiel as the war with Gog and Magog. ( Ezek. 38 ; 39 ; Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 3, p. 45.)” ( Mormon Doctrine, p. 74.). . ."


BigJ are you sure you are really LDS? I am starting to have my doubts because your knowledge is quite limited.

[Billyray]

http://ins***ute.lds.org/manuals/new-testament-ins***ute-student-manual/nt-in-12-12-55.asp

". . .(55-31) Revelation 16:16 . “A Place Called in the Hebrew Tongue Armageddon”

Lying about sixty miles north of Jerusalem is the site of Megiddo, a great mound or hill commanding the northern entrance to the broad plain called the valley of Esdraelon. The mountain or hill of Megiddo ( Har Meggido in Hebrew, of which Armageddon is the Greek transliteration) guarded the strategic p*** that cuts through the mountain range separating the coastal plains from the inland plains and hill country of Galilee. Because of this fortress or Mount of Megiddo, the valley and surrounding areas have also come to be known as Armageddon.

One of the most important highways of the ancient world—the main link between Egypt and Asia—ran through this valley and near the fortress of Megiddo. Because of that strategic location, Megiddo and the valley of Esdraelon have seen some of history’s bloodiest battles. Egyptian pharaohs, Roman legions, British troops, and Israeli tanks all have struggled in the valley of Megiddo. Prior to the second coming of Christ, all nations of the earth shall be gathered together to battle against Jerusalem. This tremendous war, one of the final great events prior to the Savior’s second coming, has been foreseen and described in detail by many of the Lord’s ancient prophets. (See, for example, Ezekiel 38 , 39 ; Joel 2 , 3 ; Isaiah 34 ; Jeremiah 25 ; Daniel 11 , 12 ; Zechariah 12–14 .) Jerusalem will be under siege and great suffering will be the lot of her inhabitants. Evidently, Armageddon, which is north of Jerusalem, will be the site of the great decisive battle of this war. “During this siege, when the nations are gathered and the Lord comes, there will be great destruction. The armies will become so confused they will fight among themselves. There will be great slaughter. Then the Lord comes to the Jews. He shows Himself. He calls upon them to come and examine His hands and His feet, and they say, ‘What are these wounds?’ And He answers them, ‘These are the wounds with which I was wounded in the house of my friends. I am Jesus Christ.’. . ."


Are you really LDS? I am starting to wonder.

[Russianwolfe]

So you don't believe in the battle of Armegeddon as described in the LDS Bible Dictionary even though it is written as clear as day. Fair enough. But I believe it is something you don't believe rather that something the LDS church doesn't teach.

And Biilyray, it is a teaching, not doctrine and not scripture.

Marvin

[Billyray]

And Biilyray, it is a teaching, not doctrine and not scripture.

Marvin

Actually it is a doctrine Marvin

[Russianwolfe]

http://ins***ute.lds.org/manuals/old-testament-ins***ute-student-manual-2/ot-in2-08-jer-ez-I.asp

Old Testament Student Manual
Enrichment I The Battle of Armageddon: A Prophetic View

". . .“At the very moment of the Second Coming of our Lord, ‘all nations’ shall be gathered ‘against Jerusalem to battle’ ( Zech. 11 ; 12 ; 13 ; 14 ), and the battle of Armageddon (obviously covering the entire area from Jerusalem to Megiddo, and perhaps more) will be in progress. As John expressed it, ‘the kings of the earth and of the whole world’ will be gathered ‘to the battle of that great day of God Almighty, . . . into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.’ Then Christ will ‘come as a thief,’ meaning unexpectedly, and the dramatic upheavals promised to accompany his return will take place. ( Rev. 16:14–21 .) It is incident to this battle of Armageddon that the Supper of the Great God shall take place ( Rev. 19:11–18 ), and it is the same battle described by Ezekiel as the war with Gog and Magog. ( Ezek. 38 ; 39 ; Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 3, p. 45.)” ( Mormon Doctrine, p. 74.). . ."


BigJ are you sure you are really LDS? I am starting to have my doubts because your knowledge is quite limited.


That is s good one, you questioning her knowledge. The pot thinks the kettle is black when in fact, it is shiny, new.

She hasn't made the glaring mistakes you have made, especially your gaffe about the seals. She hasn't even said that it isn't a teaching or doctrine. She just has a different point of view. Nothing wrong with that. And it won't put her membership in jeopardy, no matter what judgemental types like you might say.

Marvin

[Billyray]

[SIZE="4"]That is s good one, you questioning her knowledge.
ere is what I said Marvin: "BigJ are you sure you are really LDS? I am starting to have my doubts because your knowledge is quite limited."

What about you Marvin don't you believe that there will be this last final battle?

[Billyray]

“O, Divine Redeemer”
NEAL A. MAXWELL
Of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles


". . .Yes, there will be wrenching polarization on this planet, but also the remarkable reunion with our colleagues in Christ from the City of Enoch. Yes, nation after nation will become a house divided, but more and more unifying Houses of the Lord will grace this planet. Yes, Armageddon lies ahead. But so does Adam-ondi-Ahman. . ."
http://www.lds.org/general-conference/1981/10/o-divine-redeemer?lang=eng

[Russianwolfe]

ere is what I said Marvin: "BigJ are you sure you are really LDS? I am starting to have my doubts because your knowledge is quite limited."

What about you Marvin don't you believe that there will be this last final battle?

It dosesn't matter what I believe or don't believe. The fact is, you questioned her knowledge when she never denied knowledge nor did she contradict you what have been saying about this subject. She expressed that she has an open mind on how to understand the verses you two are arguing about. She said that there may be a spiritual battle and never denied that there would be a physical battle.

But of all people, to question her knowledge of things LSD after the gaffes you have pulled here, makes me laugh out loud. And you do so simply because she holds a different opinion than you do and you're the one who is suppose to NOT BELIEVE. LOL! LOL! !LOL!


Marvin

[Billyray]

It dosesn't matter what I believe or don't believe.

Sure it matters Marvin. That is what I was taught when I was LDS. If she was really LDS don't you think she would have been taught the same thing?

[Billyray]

But of all people, to question her knowledge of things LSD after the gaffes you have pulled here, makes me laugh out loud.

Isn't that the whole point Marvin. She obvious holds views that are not held by LDS and she is lacking in knowledge that Mormnism teaches a last final battle. That is why I question whether or not she is LDS. BTW isn't this the same thing both you and BigJ have tried to pull on me not too many posts ago?

[BigJulie]

Isn't that the whole point Marvin. She obvious holds views that are not held by LDS and she is lacking in knowledge that Mormnism teaches a last final battle. That is why I question whether or not she is LDS. BTW isn't this the same thing both you and BigJ have tried to pull on me not too many posts ago?

I still don't see ANYWHERE that states that this battle must needs be a is a physical battle in all of your postings. As noted, I stated when it comes to future prophecies, I keep an open mind as Christ was not understood correctly by those who read what they thought was plain. Why do you have a problem with that one Billyray? Or is this just a way to get away from the fact that you don't see any relevance to what happens in creation with what happens in this life or in the millenium?

(Did you just watch what happened in Wisconsin?--I would have called that a battle, would you? One side won, one side lost. There was a lot of money and effort that went into it. Billyray---I said, this battle MAY be a spiritual one...and that I am willing to keep my mind open when it comes to future prophecies. I don't want to make the mistake they did in old where they ***umed they knew exactly the mind of God and how things would take place. The problem was, when they didn't, they rejected the prophecies. I am not sure why you have a problem with this.)

[Billyray]

I still don't see ANYWHERE that states that this battle must needs be a is a physical battle in all of your postings.
Of course you don't.

[BigJulie]

Of course you don't.

You seem to have a problem with those who remain open-minded about what a future prophecy possibly holds.

[Billyray]

You seem to have a problem with those who remain open-minded about what a future prophecy possibly holds.

Tell me exactly what is the battle of Armegeddon per Big.j's thinking especially since this thread is about LDS are their beliefs.

[Billyray]

So you don't believe in a literal battle just before the second coming of Christ?


I believe the battle has been on-going and began before the earth began. So--what do you mean by literal battle? There is a literal battle right now between good and evil.


So you believe that the battle of Armegeddon is a battle that started before you were even born. Correct?

[Russianwolfe]

Sure it matters Marvin. That is what I was taught when I was LDS. If she was really LDS don't you think she would have been taught the same thing?

I question whether you were taught anything as an LDS. You seem to have a lot of misconceptions so it is more likely that you were taught by rumor and innuendo rather than attending seminary or ins***ute or paying any attention at all in Sunday School.

Julie has never said it wasn't a physical battle. All she has said (see her post below this one) that it may be a spiritual battle as well as a physical one.

You need to stop trying to force us to believe that which you no longer believe. We are active members of the church and are quite well versed in what we belive. You are a disaffected member who is losing a grip on what you no longer believe, probably because you are more interested learning what you believe than in your former belief. It is only natural to want to know more about what you do believe. Which means that what you no longer believe in is replaced by that which you no longer believe.

Marvin

[BigJulie]

Tell me exactly what is the battle of Armegeddon per Big.j's thinking especially since this thread is about LDS are their beliefs.

As I have already said: 6. Battle of Armegeddon.
The battle between good and evil will continue and get worse and worse until the second coming.


I believe the battle has been on-going and began before the earth began. So--what do you mean by literal battle? There is a literal battle right now between good and evil.

Rev 12:7 ¶ And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

Rev 12:8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.'

When you asked if there would be a "real battle"--I stated:


I don't think this really matters. I don't try to set God's words in the stone of my mind. The Pharisees rejected Christ because they had a picture in their minds of exactly what a Savior was supposed to look like and what He should do for them when in reality, they didn't understand it.

Likewise, when it comes to prophecies, I keep an open mind.

What is wrong with keeping an open mind about how this will play out Billyray?

You know Billyray, I think you are now to the point of just taunting. You don't like my answer and so you are just taunting. You demand there must be a physical battle. I state, maybe---but I will just keep an open mind so that I don't miss it when it comes as the Pharisees did with Christ.

[Russianwolfe]

So you believe that the battle of Armegeddon is a battle that started before you were even born. Correct?

Billyray, get a clue. Any time you have to end a statement with 'Correct?', more than likely it means that you expect to be contradicted. Usually you have twisted something and question what you have done.

I'll let Julie answer for herself, but for me, there is a war that started in the pre-existence and goes on today. Armegeddon will be the final battle of that war before the millenium. Then there will be the battle at the end of the millenium.

Marvin

[Billyray]

Billyray, get a clue. Any time you have to end a statement with 'Correct?', more than likely it means that you expect to be contradicted. Usually you have twisted something and question what you have done.

Here is her quote.


I believe the battle has been on-going and began before the earth began. So--what do you mean by literal battle? There is a literal battle right now between good and evil.

[BigJulie]

Billyray, get a clue. Any time you have to end a statement with 'Correct?', more than likely it means that you expect to be contradicted. Usually you have twisted something and question what you have done.

I'll let Julie answer for herself, but for me, there is a war that started in the pre-existence and goes on today. Armegeddon will be the final battle of that war before the millenium. Then there will be the battle at the end of the millenium.

Marvin

Thank you Marvin. Now--Marvin, would you be upset if in the end, this big battle is a spiritual one? I mean, by definition, wouldn't even a physical battle be over a spiritual one?

[BigJulie]

Here is her quote.

Which began with:
The battle between good and evil will continue and get worse and worse until the second coming.

[Russianwolfe]

Thank you Marvin. Now--Marvin, would you be upset if in the end, this big battle is a spiritual one? I mean, by definition, wouldn't even a physical battle be over a spiritual one?

Hey, the war in heaven was a spiritual battle. After all, we were all spirits then, weren't we?

Armageddon will be a spiritual battle involving physical and spiritual forces. Or would Christ's involvement in this battle be only on the physical level? I doubt that. Especially since the prophecies also say that it will take 18 months to bury the dead. And burial is a physical action.

While WWWI involved real (is the use of this word telling or not) and physical forces, it was also a spiritual battle in that it was a battle over principles like democracy vs. facism. And principles are more on the spiritual level than the physical level.

Marvin

[Billyray]

Armegeddon will be the final battle of that war before the millenium. Then there will be the battle at the end of the millenium.

Marvin
Hey Marvin we actually agree for once. Doesn't that feel good? I was taught about the battle of Armegeddon when I was LDS and I have been taught about it as a Christian and it has been explained in the same way for the most part.. But BigJ has this false concept that this battle started before we were even born. That is why I have called into question whether or not she is Mormon or even Christian. Which is only fair since you and BigJ have done the same with me about ever being Mormon.

[Russianwolfe]

Hey Marvin we actually agree for once. Doesn't that feel good? I was taught about the battle of Armegeddon when I was LDS and I have been taught about it as a Christian. But BigJ has this false concept that this battle started before we were even born. That is why I have called into question whether or not she is Mormon or even Christian. Which is only fair since you and BigJ have done the same with me.

I think that Julie could have said that there is a WAR that has been going on for a long time to be more precise. People who have not studied history to a great extent or the history of war or have not been involved in war games might use the word battle and war interchangeably. But being a student of history and war, I have a more precise definition of these two words and use then more precisely. I don't think Julie is that concerned with the precise usage of these words and could be using them interchangably. It doesn't bother me, I try to see the context and understand what she is saying, even if she doesn't use the words the same way I do.

Marvin

PS And no it doesn't make me feel better. When we seem to agree, I have to question what I said that makes you think we agree.

[BigJulie]

Hey Marvin we actually agree for once. Doesn't that feel good? I was taught about the battle of Armegeddon when I was LDS and I have been taught about it as a Christian and it has been explained in the same way for the most part.. But BigJ has this false concept that this battle started before we were even born. That is why I have called into question whether or not she is Mormon or even Christian. Which is only fair since you and BigJ have done the same with me about ever being Mormon.
You are twisting my words Billyray: when you stated Armegeddon, I merely stated:



The battle between good and evil will continue and get worse and worse until the second coming. You made a jump or a false ***umption on this one. Did I say that Amegeddon has already begun or the battle between good and evil has already begun?

[Billyray]

PS And no it doesn't make me feel better. When we seem to agree, I have to question what I said that makes you think we agree.


Russianwolfe
Armegeddon will be the final battle of that war before the millenium. Then there will be the battle at the end of the millenium.

Marvin

This part don't you remember?

[Russianwolfe]

You are twisting my words Billyray: when you stated Armegeddon, I merely stated:


You made a jump or a false ***umption on this one. Did I say that Amegeddon has already begun or the battle between good and evil has already begun?

This is Billyray's MO and that of many other critics. They try to force us to believe something that they no longer believe. Then get upset when we tell them we don't believe that. Then come the ancient quotes and references and the misquote and the out of context quotes. It is getting to be such a bore. They can't get it right and then accuse us of deception because they had it wrong. What is wrong with this?


Marvin

[Billyray]

You made a jump or a false ***umption on this one. Did I say that Amegeddon has already begun or the battle between good and evil has already begun?

Below is our running dialogue. It is Okay to be wrong. Just admit it and move on.



6. Battle of Armegeddon. The battle between good and evil will continue and get worse and worse until the second coming.


So you don't believe in a literal battle just before the second coming of Christ?

I believe the battle has been on-going and began before the earth began. So--what do you mean by literal battle? There is a literal battle right now between good and evil.

[BigJulie]

This is Billyray's MO and that of many other critics. They try to force us to believe something that they no longer believe. Then get upset when we tell them we don't believe that. Then come the ancient quotes and references and the misquote and the out of context quotes. It is getting to be such a bore. They can't get it right and then accuse us of deception because they had it wrong. What is wrong with this?


Marvin

I think that anyone can do this when they try to find fault with another. I think this is the reason it is better to share what you believe with what you perceive as the "unbeliever" and let God do the final judging both of now and of history. To get the full picture of something in which you were not there is very difficult to do--even for a court room. To think that you can dig through some history and ***ume you get it right and then use that to beat someone else up is a very dangerous position. My study of history states that to really know--you have to be there. Otherwise, we give it our best shot to know and understand. The best historians are probably the ones who leave their own opinions at the door when researching.

[BigJulie]

Below is our running dialogue. It is Okay to be wrong. Just admit it and move on.

When speaking of the battle between good and evil. You made the jump--I didn't.

As noted, in the past--I can admit when I misunderstood you or mis-stated something. I can see where you misunderstood my words here---but it was a misunderstading and your ***umptions were not correct.

[Russianwolfe]

When speaking of the battle between good and evil. You made the jump--I didn't.

As noted, in the past--I can admit when I misunderstood you or mis-stated something. I can see where you misunderstood my words here---but it was a misunderstading and your ***umptions were not correct.

He should admit it and move on.

Marvin

[BigJulie]

He should admit it and move on.

Marvin

I agree...............

[Billyray]

I think that anyone can do this when they try to find fault with another.

Then why do you find fault with others rather than just give us your views? BTW I set this whole thread up to simply get your views.

[BigJulie]

Then why do you find fault with others rather than just give us your views? BTW I set this whole thread up to simply get your views.

And I gave them and you misunderstood and have been haggling me since. Sorry if you don't like me telling you that you misunderstood or you see that as a fault. *sigh*

[Billyray]

And I gave them and you misunderstood and have been haggling me since. Sorry if you don't like me telling you that you misunderstood or you see that as a fault. *sigh*

Here was our running dialogue


6. Battle of Armegeddon. The battle between good and evil will continue and get worse and worse until the second coming.


So you don't believe in a literal battle just before the second coming of Christ?

I believe the battle has been on-going and began before the earth began. So--what do you mean by literal battle? There is a literal battle right now between good and evil.


Tell me what you "really' meant by this?

[BigJulie]

Here was our running dialogue



Tell me what you "really' meant by this?

I can see how you misunderstood that I believed the ongoing battle between good and evil is called "Armegeddon"---but that is not what I had in mind when I wrote it. I was just acknowledging that the battle between good and evil has been going on for a long time and would "continue" until and get worse and worse until the second coming--that is the battle between good and evil. Armeggedon is just the culmination of that ongoing battle.

The ongoing battle--I was then describing is the ongoing battle between good and evil. As we can see--it is not a physical battle right now, but definitely a spiritual one. Therefore, I don't make the ***umption that the culminating battle of Armeggedon will be a physical one. It can be---I just don't ***ume it has to be.

[RealFakeHair]

I can see how you misunderstood that I believed the ongoing battle between good and evil is called "Armegeddon"---but that is not what I had in mind when I wrote it. I was just acknowledging that the battle between good and evil has been going on for a long time and would "continue" until and get worse and worse until the second coming--that is the battle between good and evil. Armeggedon is just the culmination of that ongoing battle.

The ongoing battle--I was then describing is the ongoing battle between good and evil. As we can see--it is not a physical battle right now, but definitely a spiritual one. Therefore, I don't make the ***umption that the culminating battle of Armeggedon will be a physical one. It can be---I just don't ***ume it has to be.

In athe battle of the endtimers the score is 1 billion to 0.
Every endtimer since the beginning of time has been wrong, but I do enjoy all the back and forth.

[BigJulie]

In athe battle of the endtimers the score is 1 billion to 0.
Every endtimer since the beginning of time has been wrong, but I do enjoy all the back and forth.

So,I guess I can ***ume you would agree with me that we should keep an open mind about how exactly Armeggedon will occur. ;)

[RealFakeHair]

So,I guess I can ***ume you would agree with me that we should keep an open mind about how exactly Armeggedon will occur. ;)

I think everyone should have an open mind, I would if I had one.:eek:

[Billyray]

I can see how you misunderstood that I believed the ongoing battle between good and evil is called "Armegeddon"---but that is not what I had in mind when I wrote it.

This is a thread to tell me what you believe. Tell me what you really believe about Armegeddon.

[dberrie2000]

This is a thread to tell me what you believe. Tell me what you really believe about Armegeddon.

What do you believe Armegeddon has to do with our personal salvation?

[Billyray]

What do you believe Armegeddon has to do with our personal salvation?
Can you address it or not? If not don't try and change the subject.

[Billyray]

When are LDS planning on going to Missouri?

[BigJulie]

When are LDS planning on going to Missouri?

Oh---now I see why you are asking about Armegedon. You are hoping for an entry point in which you can again mock us.

[Billyray]

Oh---now I see why you are asking about Armegedon. You are hoping for an entry point in which you can again mock us.
Is this your way of avoiding answering my question?

[BigJulie]

Is this your way of avoiding answering my question?

I have made no connection between Armegedon and Missouri--if that is what you mean. I haven't really studied up on it and it isn't something we discuss much at church.

[Billyray]

I have made no connection between Armegedon and Missouri--if that is what you mean. I haven't really studied up on it and it isn't something we discuss much at church.
They are two different things but Missouri is an end times theme for Mormons and this thread is about end times and we are in the LDS board so that is why I am asking you about it. Are you planning on moving to Missouri or has the LDS church dropped this concept?

[BigJulie]

They are two different things but Missouri is an end times theme for Mormons and this thread is about end times and we are in the LDS board so that is why I am asking you about it. Are you planning on moving to Missouri or has the LDS church dropped this concept?

The concept is that eventually, the church will gather in Missouri. How and when is unknown. I may never go there myself.

[Russianwolfe]

When are LDS planning on going to Missouri?

The only plan I know of is when God commands it.

Marvin

[James Banta]

The only plan I know of is when God commands it.

Marvin

Why did God change His mind in the first place? Isn't the mormon god more powerful than a State Militia from the 1840's? Hey even the Utah National Guard is more powerful than that and God couldn't overcome the terrorism set on the LDS by that "mob"? The Commandment was to move from Ohio to Missouri but it was later changed because of the "mobs" around Jackson county.. Your God's commandments seem to be based on what outsiders do.. If he was the true God that spoke to Moses from the burning bush the Israelites would still be slaves held in bondage in Egypt.. He can't bring to p*** what is his will. He has no power to make a safe place for his people.. The LDS god is a weakling and a joke.. IHS jim

[BigJulie]

Why did God change His mind in the first place? Isn't the mormon god more powerful than a State Militia from the 1840's? Hey even the Utah National Guard is more powerful than that and God couldn't overcome the terrorism set on the LDS by that "mob"? The Commandment was to move from Ohio to Missouri but it was later changed because of the "mobs" around Jackson county.. Your God's commandments seem to be based on what outsiders do.. If he was the true God that spoke to Moses from the burning bush the Israelites would still be slaves held in bondage in Egypt.. He can't bring to p*** what is his will. He has no power to make a safe place for his people.. The LDS god is a weakling and a joke.. IHS jim

He did make a safe place--which is still thriving today. You seem to think that if God could keep His promises, the Jews should have inherited all of Jerusalem and have rebuilt their temple (as this is what is prophecied). Do you give God time to keep his promises to the Jews that were made in the OT and are not yet fulfilled as of yet--but for Mormons, it must occur right away?

[James Banta]

He did make a safe place--which is still thriving today. You seem to think that if God could keep His promises, the Jews should have inherited all of Jerusalem and have rebuilt their temple (as this is what is prophecied). Do you give God to keep his promises to the Jews that were made in the OT and are not yet fulfilled as of yet--but for Mormons, it must occur right away?

Julie He commanded that Missouri was to be the center of Zion. The 84th section of the D&C puts a time limit on the building of the New Jerusalem in Missouri. No where in the Bible is a time limit placed on the promises of God, you are way off base..


D&C 84:4-5
Verily this is the word of the Lord, that the city New Jerusalem shall be built by the gathering of the saints, beginning at this place, even the place of the temple, which temple shall be reared in this generation.
For verily this generation shall not all p*** away until an house shall be built unto the Lord, and a cloud shall rest upon it, which cloud shall be even the glory of the Lord, which shall fill the house.

Just so you understand what was thought that "THIS GENERATION MEANT to the early Utah Mormon leadership, those who were believed to be prophets and apostles it was taught that It was the generation that Smith had given the revelation to.


On March 10, 1861, Apostle George A. Smith stated: "Who is there that is prepared for this move back to the centre stake of Zion.... let me remind you that it is predicted that this generation shall not p*** away till a temple shall be built, and the glory of the Lord rest upon it, according to the promises" (Journal of Discourses, vol. 10, p. 344).

We have confidence in returning to Jackson county. There are many still living, whose faith in returning to Jackson County, and the things that are coming, is as firm and fixed as the throne of the Almighty. God promised in the year 1832 that we should, before the generation then living had p***ed away, return and build up the City of Zion in Jackson County.

We believe in these promises as much as we believe in any promise ever uttered by the mouth of Jehovah. The Latter-day Saints just as much expect to receive a fulfillment of that promise during the generation that was in existence in 1832 as they expect that the sun will rise and set to-morrow. Why? Because God cannot lie. He will fulfill all His promises. He has spoken, it must come to p***. This is our faith (vol. 13, p. ). (Orson Pratt, Journal of Discourses, vol. 13, p. 138, 362).

Like the JW, mormonism had to change the meaning of the prophecy when there was no fulfillment.. And yet the prophecy still stands there proving that it is a false prophecy.. But look the mormon god changed his mind and gives the reason for the change.


D&C 124:51
Therefore, for this cause have I accepted the offerings of those whom I commanded to build up a city and a house unto my name, in Jackson county, Missouri, and were hindered by their enemies, saith the Lord your God.


The enemies of God hindered the plans and promises of God to build a temple in Far West. He had no power to keep his promise given in D&C 84.. He is a weak god.. After all the BofM teaches that God will always make a way for his children to do what he has commanded.


1 Nephi 3:7
I know that the Lord giveth no commandments unto the children of men, save he shall prepare a way for them that they may accomplish the thing which he commandeth them.

Seems as though the god of mormonism changed and became weak, not being able to stand up to the "mobs" of Missouri.. IHS jim

[James Banta]

Julie He commanded that Missouri was to be the center of Zion. The 84th section of the D&C puts a time limit on the building of the New Jerusalem in Missouri. No where in the Bible is a time limit placed on the promises of God, you are way off base..


D&C 84:4-5
Verily this is the word of the Lord, that the city New Jerusalem shall be built by the gathering of the saints, beginning at this place, even the place of the temple, which temple shall be reared in this generation.
For verily this generation shall not all p*** away until an house shall be built unto the Lord, and a cloud shall rest upon it, which cloud shall be even the glory of the Lord, which shall fill the house.

Just so you understand what was thought that "THIS GENERATION MEANT to the early Utah Mormon leadership, those who were believed to be prophets and apostles it was taught that It was the generation that Smith had given the revelation to.


On March 10, 1861, Apostle George A. Smith stated: "Who is there that is prepared for this move back to the centre stake of Zion.... let me remind you that it is predicted that this generation shall not p*** away till a temple shall be built, and the glory of the Lord rest upon it, according to the promises" (Journal of Discourses, vol. 10, p. 344).

We have confidence in returning to Jackson county. There are many still living, whose faith in returning to Jackson County, and the things that are coming, is as firm and fixed as the throne of the Almighty. God promised in the year 1832 that we should, before the generation then living had p***ed away, return and build up the City of Zion in Jackson County.

We believe in these promises as much as we believe in any promise ever uttered by the mouth of Jehovah. The Latter-day Saints just as much expect to receive a fulfillment of that promise during the generation that was in existence in 1832 as they expect that the sun will rise and set to-morrow. Why? Because God cannot lie. He will fulfill all His promises. He has spoken, it must come to p***. This is our faith (vol. 13, p. ). (Orson Pratt, Journal of Discourses, vol. 13, p. 138, 362).

Like the JW, mormonism had to change the meaning of the prophecy when there was no fulfillment.. And yet the prophecy still stands there proving that it is a false prophecy.. But look the mormon god changed his mind and gives the reason for the change.


D&C 124:51
Therefore, for this cause have I accepted the offerings of those whom I commanded to build up a city and a house unto my name, in Jackson county, Missouri, and were hindered by their enemies, saith the Lord your God.


The enemies of God hindered the plans and promises of God to build a temple in Far West. He had no power to keep his promise given in D&C 84.. He is a weak god.. After all the BofM teaches that God will always make a way for his children to do what he has commanded.


1 Nephi 3:7
I know that the Lord giveth no commandments unto the children of men, save he shall prepare a way for them that they may accomplish the thing which he commandeth them.

Seems as though the god of mormonism changed and became weak, not being able to stand up to the "mobs" of Missouri.. IHS jim

OUCH this one stings a bit doesn't it? Yes the BofM speaks of a powerful God who can bring His purposes to p*** no matter what is set against the endeavor. But the later god of Joseph Smith didn't have the power to make obedience to his commands possible. Why was Nephi given a way to be obedient and the LDS in Far West working on the Temple not given the same opportunity? Seems that the god of Smith changed from being the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God, without end. Amen. To being three Gods and who can contradict it kind of gods.. Is there any wonder that the LDS were so rejected by God when they turned their backs on Him to follow the false gods of Joseph Smith? If you are going to believe in the BofM DO IT! but the BofM contradicts the teachings accepted by mormonism that it holds a completely different god(s) to be God and a completely different gospel to be the Gospel.. IHS jim

[James Banta]

Really? Individual mormons have no way to defend this part of their scripture? They can accept a doctrine that allows God to break His promises? Tell me please if that is an attribute of God what stop Him from changing the requirements for salvation and leave you cut off? There would be none.. And yet God to;d the Prophet that He doesn't chance for that Israel (And that would extend to all who are adopted into Israel) are not consumed (Mal 3:6) IHS jim

[MickeyS]

Actually I just want you to explain it to me and thus far you seem to be having some difficutly. But that aside D and C 77 says "We are to understand that the first seal contains the things of the first thousand years"

Start from scratch if you need to and tell me about the first seal, who is the rider--which I ***ume you will still say Christ-- and what exactly does Christ do in this first thousand years, and where does Christ go after the thousand years since according to D and C all of that seal in contained in the first thousand years.

Sorry, I just had to respond to this, I'm certainly no expert, but this the best I've been able to understand so far.

----the first seal represents the first 1,000 years from the time Adam & Eve left the Garden. The rider represents a righteous figure from that time. This would either be Adam or Enoch. I think Enoch, but that's what I read into it.

----the second seal represents the second 1,000 year period - this would encomp*** the time of Noah, and could represent the war and bloodshed and the extreme wickedness of man during this time, the great sword symbolic of terrible destruction. Both temporal and spiritual.

----the third seal represents the next 1,000 year period - this would be during the time of Moses and Abraham and the years of captivity in Egypt for the children of Israel. The black could represent evil, spiritual darkness, the depression that accompanies famine, as this was a time of great famine for mankind. Again symbolic of earthly and spiritual famine.

----the fourth seal represents the next 1,000 years leading up to the birth of Christ (these are estimated dates of course because nobody truly knows when Adam & Eve left the Garden, and no man knows the day He comes again) this horse is pale, possibly representing that the quality of life and spiritual health for those who have chosen the path of wickedness has been drained by the wickedness from the previous horsemen. Israel divided by Civil War, ***yria carries away the ten tribes, Babylonians conquer Jerusalem, Romans become rulers of the Holy Land. You would have to know since the horsemen are symbolic figures that the death mentioned is probably mostly symbolic as well. As in spiritual death, the product of turning away from the Lord. Unless you truly believe this hasn't happened yet, and that it is to be taken quite literal meaning a fourth of the population of earth will be literally wiped off the face of the earth, and then another third will be decimated again as described in Chapter 9 not long after? I mean, that's up to you to interpret it that way. But in this case, it is possible that the "fourth" mentioned in this verse means the "death" (spiritual & temporal) will be great, but perhaps not as great at the "third" that will happen later, mentioned in Chapter 9. Now, another possibility could mean to be literal "And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth." Could this not also possibly mean the power to destroy was given to a fourth part of the earth, but not necessarily that a fourth of the earth was destroyed due to this power? Either way, my personal opinion leans toward the significance of the symbolism of the fourth (four representing mankind) That's the beauty of symbolism.

As you see, the first four seals are broken rather quickly (meaning they're almost mentioned as a footnote- they only take up a few verses) the fifth seal gets a little more explained, then the entire remainder of Revelation goes into great detail of the sixth and seventh seals. That is because those seals had not come to p*** at the time John received the revelations, but they were included in the "things to come" because they were part of the entire story-from beginning to end, Alpha to Omega. The book being Lord's plan for mankind that was presented to the Savior and that only He could bring to p***. The Savior existed along side the Father before He gained a mortal body, He is and always has been involved in all the events of this world.

But you can't be entirely literal when it suits you when there is obvious symbolism thus far (lambs, horses, beasts) but oh no, THAT part is literal. The book is packed with symbolism.

Now, of course there is no EXACT interpretation....we don't have all the answers, we never claimed to. We actually know there is much we don't know. Now, you may not like this interpretation of Revelation, but it's not any more illogical than any of the MANY other interpretations of the book. You I'm sure are fully aware there are almost as many interpretations as their are Christian sects. And you don't have to believe it either. I'm not sure of the point of this forum....is it to completely dissect the LDS religion? I'm trying to understand the purpose because anyone can make any religion look foolish if they don't believe in the precepts and tenets. Unless you are sincerely curious, but you seem a little argumentative for that to be the case. You seem to be out to tear down someone else's beliefs, why is that?

Now since you seem so adamant about there being specificity in these horsemen...what are the exact details of the horsemen to you, according to you it needs to be very sure an detailed so I'm interested to hear it.

[MickeyS]

You do know that the LDS see the seven seal as seven thousand years of God's dealing with men on the earth? Basically the history of man.. I have never seen the results if the seals as described in the Bible occurring in 1,000 year increments but the LDS don't see the seals as end time process.. Their interpretation is quite different than Christian teachings on almost the whole of the Revelation.. IHS jim

As far as I was led to believe, Preterist and Historist interpretations believe the horsemen have also come and gone...that they were all part of events that happened around 100 AD. So, not the only religion that doesn't see the first four seals as end time revelation.

[alanmolstad]

As far as I was led to believe, Preterist and Historist interpretations believe the horsemen have also come and gone...that they were all part of events that happened around 100 AD. So, not the only religion that doesn't see the first four seals as end time revelation.

I have yet to hear any person teach anything I felt was even slightly close to right.....

[MickeyS]

This is a thread to tell me what you believe. Tell me what you really believe about Armegeddon.

Oh for Heavens Sake, it's a real battle. Sheez...I'm sure there are going to be plenty of other factors involved as well. But my heck, the battle of Armegeddon will take place at Meggido. I think that's fairly specific...doesn't everyone believe that, it seems obvious from the scriptures right? Unless I'm missing something, why wouldn't it?