What price of a single Book of Mormon coin?

[RealFakeHair]

Just read today where 15 million dollars worth of First century Roman coins were found in the UK. This leads me to wonder what a single Book of Mormon coin would be worth if found?

[urloony]

Just read today where 15 million dollars worth of First century Roman coins were found in the UK. This leads me to wonder what a single Book of Mormon coin would be worth if found?

Where does the BoM mention coins?

[James Banta]

Where does the BoM mention coins?


Alma 11:3
And the judge received for his wages according to his time—a senum of silver, which is equal to a senine of gold of gold for a day, or a senum of silver, which is equal to a senine of gold; and this is according to the law which was given.

Just what is a "senum of silver, which is equal to a senine of gold" if not a monetary system sat up by law? Since it is measured up in silver and gold it doesn't matter what it looked like or even it was cast with writing or an image on it, it was still a coin.. The Book of Mormon Student Study Guide, (2000), 165–166 explains a senum to be Nephite money. That being what the LDS church teaches about what a senine is, it is proper to call it a coin.. IHS jim

[urloony]

Alma 11:3
And the judge received for his wages according to his time—a senum of silver, which is equal to a senine of gold of gold for a day, or a senum of silver, which is equal to a senine of gold; and this is according to the law which was given.

Just what is a "senum of silver, which is equal to a senine of gold" if not a monetary system sat up by law? Since it is measured up in silver and gold it doesn't matter what it looked like or even it was cast with writing or an image on it, it was still a coin.. The Book of Mormon Student Study Guide, (2000), 165–166 explains a senum to be Nephite money. That being what the LDS church teaches about what a senine is, it is proper to call it a coin.. IHS jim
The book of Mormon never mentions coins and there is no evidence that it was ever used. A system of weight and measures may have been used for trade but insisting that coins were used has no basis in fact.

Edited to add: A monetary system does not necessitate the use of coins. A coin by definition must have some identifying mark such as writing, symbol, etc. The BoM describes nothing of that nature.

[James Banta]

The book of Mormon never mentions coins and there is no evidence that it was ever used. A system of weight and measures may have been used for trade but insisting that coins were used has no basis in fact.

Edited to add: A monetary system does not necessitate the use of coins. A coin by definition must have some identifying mark such as writing, symbol, etc. The BoM describes nothing of that nature.

Then you are saying that you flat disagree with the official teaching of your own church.. In the year 2000 they taught that the word "SENUM" is a word for Nephit money. Since it is stated to be silver and gold it is properly called coins..

I have shown you where "SENUM" is called silver and gold.. Can you show me where it wasn't so? No? Then you are just straining at a gnat on this point.. IHS jim

[urloony]

Then you are saying that you flat disagree with the official teaching of your own church.. In the year 2000 they taught that the word "SENUM" is a word for Nephit money. Since it is stated to be silver and gold it is properly called coins..
I have shown you where "SENUM" is called silver and gold.. Can you show me where it wasn't so? No? Then you are just straining at a gnat on this point.. IHS jim
I think you are getting confused Jim by the term money/monetary system and coins. These are two different concepts, not one in the same. There is no doubt that the Nephites used a monetary system for trade. This does not mean that they used coins. In fact the BoM never mentions coins, nor does the student manual you mentioned which you have yet to actually quote.

As an example, the Mayans throughout Mesoamerica used cocoa beans as a form of currency and was part of their monetary system. By your definition of “coins” we must ***ume that cocoa beans are also “Mayan coins.” This idea is obviously absurd. It is equally absurd to ***ume the same with the Nephite monetary system of measures.

Here is a more likely example of Nephite gold "coins."
http://www.gold-nuggets.org/raw-nuggets/images/raw-nugget2-big.jpg

[RealFakeHair]

I think you are getting confused Jim by the term money/monetary system and coins. These are two different concepts, not one in the same. There is no doubt that the Nephites used a monetary system for trade. This does not mean that they used coins. In fact the BoM never mentions coins, nor does the student manual you mentioned which you have yet to actually quote.

As an example, the Mayans throughout Mesoamerica used cocoa beans as a form of currency and was part of their monetary system. By your definition of “coins” we must ***ume that cocoa beans are also “Mayan coins.” This idea is obviously absurd. It is equally absurd to ***ume the same with the Nephite monetary system of measures.

Here is a more likely example of Nephite gold "coins."
http://www.gold-nuggets.org/raw-nuggets/images/raw-nugget2-big.jpg

This is just plain ******; in all of history no civilization no such form of money would looks so disorganized!

[James Banta]

I think you are getting confused Jim by the term money/monetary system and coins. These are two different concepts, not one in the same. There is no doubt that the Nephites used a monetary system for trade. This does not mean that they used coins. In fact the BoM never mentions coins, nor does the student manual you mentioned which you have yet to actually quote.

As an example, the Mayans throughout Mesoamerica used cocoa beans as a form of currency and was part of their monetary system. By your definition of “coins” we must ***ume that cocoa beans are also “Mayan coins.” This idea is obviously absurd. It is equally absurd to ***ume the same with the Nephite monetary system of measures.

Here is a more likely example of Nephite gold "coins."
http://www.gold-nuggets.org/raw-nuggets/images/raw-nugget2-big.jpg

I am NOT speaking of commodities brought in under some bartering system.. I am talking about a measured amount of silver or gold that was judges to be the right amount for services a man to preform.. The BofM makes it clear that "judges, should receive wages according to the time which they labored to judge those who were brought before them to be judged. " (Alma 11:1). Wages according to the time which they labored, That sounds like a measured payment.. The BofM calls it a senum of silver, which is equal to a senine of gold as set up as a standard by the king (Alam 11:3-4).. I don't see any standard in your looses mineral nuggets. I am saying that your nuggets are of modern discovery and have nothing to do with being used as wages at any time in the Americas.. You are grasping at straws..

You said that the whole idea of any pre colombian American Indians using silver or gold is "obviously absurd". I disagree there as well.. It has been well documented over the years that many Indians used such as jewelry but I am unaware that such was used in currency for common trade.. There is no evidence I know of that silver or Gold was used by Indians as wages.. How can one man deny the teaching of his false church, then remain completely in the dark as to truth.. You are an amazing man.. IHS jim

[urloony]

I am NOT speaking of commodities brought in under some bartering system.. I am talking about a measured amount of silver or gold that was judges to be the right amount for services a man to preform.. The BofM makes it clear that "judges, should receive wages according to the time which they labored to judge those who were brought before them to be judged. " (Alma 11:1). Wages according to the time which they labored, That sounds like a measured payment..
Exactly Jim. It was MEASURED payment NOT coinage. There is no mention of coins whatsoever. The picture of nuggets is simply an example of what could be measured. Similar to the old west gold would be measured on a scale and depending on the going rate goods or services can be purchased.
The mayan culture used cocoa beans AS CURRENCY. I’m not talking about bartering, but a monetary system that uses CURRENCY. The CURRENCY that they used was cocoa beans.

The BofM calls it a senum of silver, which is equal to a senine of gold as set up as a standard by the king (Alam 11:3-4).. I don't see any standard in your looses mineral nuggets. I am saying that your nuggets are of modern discovery and have nothing to do with being used as wages at any time in the Americas.. You are grasping at straws..
A weights and measures system like the Nephite system does not use coins. Instead it likely used standard weight and measures consistent with other Mesoamerican cultures. See Marion Popenoe de Hatch, Kaminaljuyú/San Jorge: Evidencia Arqueológica de la Actividad Económica en el Valle de Guatemala, 300 a.C. a 300 d.C (Guatemala: Universidad del Valle de Guatemala, 1997), 100.

What this means Jim is that the gold and silver itself is standardized by the scale they are placed on. In other words you might take a handful of gold place it on a scale and could determine its value (senine, seon, shum, etc.) You would do the same for silver as well as barley and other grains in order to determine value.

This isn’t grasping at straws at all, “When the Spanish invaders arrived, they reported that in the markets everything was sold by volume.1 For example, the Aztecs used a wooden box, called quauhchiaquihuitl, to measure corn and other dry goods; this box was divided until the smallest unit was a twelfth part of the whole. Graded sizes of jars served to measure liquid. They also had special cups to measure out gold tribute payments to the Spanish in units roughly equivalent to our ounces.”
http://maxwellins***ute.byu.edu/publications/jbms/?vol=8&num=2&id=568#Anchor-1.-3913


You said that the whole idea of any pre colombian American Indians using silver or gold is "obviously absurd".
No that’s not what I said. This is what I said.

By your definition of “coins” we must ***ume that cocoa beans are also “Mayan coins.” This idea is obviously absurd.
In other words what is absurd is to call the Mayan cocoa beans coins.

There is no evidence I know of that silver or Gold was used by Indians as wages.. How can one man deny the teaching of his false church, then remain completely in the dark as to truth.. You are an amazing man.. IHS jim
No one has been talking about Indians. It’s always obvious when you start to lose a debate because you make blatant attempts to change the topic and drive the conversation in a different direction. The bottom line is that there is no evidence in the BoM that coins were ever used by the Nephites.

[urloony]

This is just plain ******; in all of history no civilization no such form of money would looks so disorganized!
How about cocoa beans is that more "organized?" (http://www.authenticmaya.com/maya_trade_and_economy.htm)
"All of history" eh?
http://cdn2.spiegel.de/images/image-208145-galleryV9-kumy.jpg

[James Banta]

Exactly Jim. It was MEASURED payment NOT coinage. There is no mention of coins whatsoever. The picture of nuggets is simply an example of what could be measured. Similar to the old west gold would be measured on a scale and depending on the going rate goods or services can be purchased.

It is unrealistic to believe that a employer or every merchant of the market would have a scale and "Measure out" the right amount of gold to be paid each time they needed to be paid.. This would mean pounding out the correct amount every time payment was tendered. It make sense that there would be some premeasured COINS that could facilitate a more ordered method of making measured payments.. In that the BofM supports that coins were made. IN case you didn't see it here it is again

Alma 11:4
Now these are the names of the different pieces of their gold, and of their silver, according to their value. And the names are given by the Nephites, for they did not reckon after the manner of the Jews who were at Jerusalem; neither did they measure after the manner of the Jews; but they altered their reckoning and their measure, according to the minds and the circumstances of the people, in every generation, until the reign of the judges, they having been established by king Mosiah.
Different PIECES of gold and silver according to their value.. That is COINS! It doesn't say the measure of gold dust, or the weight of a nugget, No it's says different pieces of gold and silver each with a name like our Double Eagle, or dime. These were the senine, seon, or a shum. That is what the p***age under consideration teaches about money.. I don't care id the weight was different than a Hebrew Sheckle. The fact is that these were "different pieces of their gold, and of their silver, according to their value.". It isn't I that is losing this argument.. All you have left to stand on is your pride.. And looking at what this p***age teaches you pride is not worth a "senine"..


The mayan culture used cocoa beans AS CURRENCY. I’m not talking about bartering, but a monetary system that uses CURRENCY. The CURRENCY that they used was cocoa beans.

It doesn't matter what else you find that was used as a currency. The p***age in question speaks of gold and silver pieces measures out according to their value. They could have also used "pork bellies" and it would change the fact that there were said to be coins.. The fact that we today have examples of ancient coins from nation that actually existed.

Here is a Greek coin that has survived to this day from over 500 BC

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f1/SNGANS_1202.jpg
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_drachma)

Can you show me one example of a "senine".. No? Know why? Because they NEVER EXISTED in the first place.. It was all invented, MADE UP, in the fertile imagination of Joseph Smith.. These are facts Loony. I have shown you real coins from the same era. You keep twisting this conversation to include cocoa beans. Even when the p***age is from your own books you can't read what it says.. It says clearly that these pieces were of gold, and of their silver, according to their value. And each had a name of senine, seon, or shum.. This is the very meaning of a COIN..


A weights and measures system like the Nephite system does not use coins. Instead it likely used standard weight and measures consistent with other Mesoamerican cultures. See Marion Popenoe de Hatch, Kaminaljuyú/San Jorge: Evidencia Arqueológica de la Actividad Económica en el Valle de Guatemala, 300 a.C. a 300 d.C (Guatemala: Universidad del Valle de Guatemala, 1997), 100.

I would agree that Mesoamerican cultures did not use coins.. They did make fine amulates of gold and silver and wore them.. But I can find no instance when such was measured, used for payment and even named.. With each statement you make here you do further away from explaining how truth can be found in the BofM.. I have shown you where measured names coins were used in this story. All you have done is to deny your own book's teaching, at least on this subject.. So tell me why should any of it be believed id this p***age doesn't measure up to truth?


What this means Jim is that the gold and silver itself is standardized by the scale they are placed on. In other words you might take a handful of gold place it on a scale and could determine its value (senine, seon, shum, etc.) You would do the same for silver as well as barley and other grains in order to determine value.

READ THE P***AGE, it says that different pieces of their gold, and silver, had names and values as appointed by the king.. Not that there was a measure that was appointed by the king.. Again I tell you to READ THE P***AGE.. It says NOTHING about grain only gold and silver.. You are indeed grasping at straws to try not to look foolish.. THAT SHIP HAS SAILED..


This isn’t grasping at straws at all, “When the Spanish invaders arrived, they reported that in the markets everything was sold by volume.1 For example, the Aztecs used a wooden box, called quauhchiaquihuitl, to measure corn and other dry goods; this box was divided until the smallest unit was a twelfth part of the whole. Graded sizes of jars served to measure liquid. They also had special cups to measure out gold tribute payments to the Spanish in units roughly equivalent to our ounces.”
[url]http://maxwellins***ute.byu.edu/publications/jbms/?vol=8&num=2&id=568#Anchor-1.-3913

I have no problem with how things really were. I know there were no coins in the Americas. That isn't the question.. I yield in that truth.. What I am saying is that the BofM says that there were coins.. It is a false teaching and casts doubt on any of that book being true.. The idea that there were measured pieces of gold and silver whose value was established by the king proves that the BofM teaches the usage of coins among the inhabitants of this continent.. That is false as you insist. That is evidence that the BofM is false it's self..


No that’s not what I said. This is what I said.

In other words what is absurd is to call the Mayan cocoa beans coins.

No one has been talking about Indians. It’s always obvious when you start to lose a debate because you make blatant attempts to change the topic and drive the conversation in a different direction. The bottom line is that there is no evidence in the BoM that coins were ever used by the Nephites.

Sorry I said Indians. I meant the peoples of the land that were here at the arrival of the Europeans. I agree with your insistence that there were no coins used in the Americas until the Europeans came. I also see that the BofM teaches there were such things.. It is wrong as you have so clearly pointed out. The text of Alma 11:4 makes it clear that coins were used in Smith story line.. I see nothing is anything you have said here that shows that measured pieces of gold and silver were not used as a form of payment.. I have also shown you that coins from 500 BC have survived to this day.. You are without support in you insistence that mere gold and silver nuggets were used with out refinement and measuring out to the proper weight were not used.. You objection to what the Alma p***age clearly states is outstanding.. I pray you find more about the BofM that is blatantly false.. IHS jim

[urloony]

It is unrealistic to believe that a employer or every merchant of the market would have a scale and "Measure out" the right amount of gold to be paid each time they needed to be paid.. This would mean pounding out the correct amount every time payment was tendered. It make sense that there would be some premeasured COINS that could facilitate a more ordered method of making measured payments.. In that the BofM supports that coins were made. IN case you didn't see it here it is again
Conjecture doesn't mean a thing when the text never states coins were used.

Different PIECES of gold and silver according to their value.. That is COINS!

Not necessarily.

Most recently a burial containing 12,000 pieces of metal "money" (though not coins as such) was found in Ecuador, for the first time confirming that some ancient South Americans had the idea of accumulating a fortune in more or less standard units of metal wealth. Such a startling find in Mesoamerica could change our present limited ideas.
(John L. Sorenson, An Ancient American Setting for the Book of Mormon (Salt Lake City, Utah : Deseret Book Co. ; Provo, Utah : Foundation for Ancient Research and Mormon Studies, 1996 [1985]), 232–233.)

Pieces of gold or pieces of silver do not translate to coins. That is an eisegetical reading of the text, especially when it is quite reasonable and more probable that it was not coins. In fact there is no evidence of any Mesoamerican culture using coins at the time period the Book of Mormon claims to take place. You are insistent upon ignoring the text and changing it to make it say something it does not.

It doesn't say the measure of gold dust, or the weight of a nugget, No it's says different pieces of gold and silver each with a name like our Double Eagle, or dime.
Contrary to your statement it does indeed say measure. Once the measures are established senine, seon, shum, wages were then payed on those measures. Notice it does not say a gold seon or a gold shum. It states they were payed a senine OF gold which is indicative of a measured portion of gold.


the Nephites, for they did not reckon after the manner of the Jews who were at Jerusalem; neither did they measure after the manner of the Jews; but they altered their reckoning and their measure, according to the minds and the circumstances of the people, in every generation, until the reign of the judges, they having been established Mosiah.
(Alma 11:4)



These were the senine, seon, or a shum. That is what the p***age under consideration teaches about money.. I don't care id the weight was different than a Hebrew Sheckle. The fact is that these were "different pieces of their gold, and of their silver, according to their value.". It isn't I that is losing this argument.. All you have left to stand on is your pride.. And looking at what this p***age teaches you pride is not worth a "senine"..

The trouble is Jim the BoM doesn’t mention coins. You’re up the creek on this one. You can offer your conjecture all day, but the evidence for cultures in Mesoamerica and the text are against you. Yet, you are insistent to defy what is right in front of you. This strikes me as perhaps one of your doubts back in the day when you were LDS. It must be troubling to discover that perhaps one of the reasons you left the church was in fact unfounded.

[James Banta]

[urloony;132377]Conjecture doesn't mean a thing when the text never states coins were used.

You just will not accept the meaning the rest of the world has for a coin.. Even your own church calls these units of measures gold and silver pieces, coins.. In a search done of LDS.org completed for the word coin I found this explanation:


Index to the triple combination
Coin
see also Amnor [coin]; Ezrom; Limnah; Money; Onti; Senine; Senum; Seon; Shiblon [coin]; Shiblum; Shum.

Nephite coins and measures explained, Alma 11:1–9 (http://www.lds.org/scriptures/triple-index/coin?lang=eng&query=senum)

You appear to be one Mormon that refuses to bow to the idea that Alma 11:4 is an confirmation that a Senum is a Nephite coin..


Not necessarily.

Most recently a burial containing 12,000 pieces of metal "money" (though not coins as such) was found in Ecuador, for the first time confirming that some ancient South Americans had the idea of accumulating a fortune in more or less standard units of metal wealth. Such a startling find in Mesoamerica could change our present limited ideas.
(John L. Sorenson, An Ancient American Setting for the Book of Mormon (Salt Lake City, Utah : Deseret Book Co. ; Provo, Utah : Foundation for Ancient Research and Mormon Studies, 1996 [1985]), 232–233.)

This was published to try to prove what you now deny.. That coins were used in the New world before Columbus. The Maxwell Ins***ute agrees with me that Nephite coins existed while they disagree with you that they did not.. I have already admitted that ornate gold amulets were found in many places in the kingdoms of the Indians of Central and South America.. I will even allow you to call them all coins.. But according to all research these were not used as tender for services or product purchases.. What they were is the property of the crown and only the crown..


Pieces of gold or pieces of silver do not translate to coins. That is an eisegetical reading of the text, especially when it is quite reasonable and more probable that it was not coins. In fact there is no evidence of any Mesoamerican culture using coins at the time period the Book of Mormon claims to take place. You are insistent upon ignoring the text and changing it to make it say something it does not.

I agree there is NOTHING that supports this BofM use of coins in any part of the Americas, North, South, or Central.. I have no problem being in total disagreement with the LDS church or it's sudo support agencies (the Maxwell Ins***ute) in making that statement.. I am surprised that you support the science in this matter and reject what your church teachings.. Never the less your church, as I have shown, does teach that coins were used in the BofM..I see that by questioning this you are on the road to further doubting of the BofM and Joseph Smith.. I praise God for that..


Contrary to your statement it does indeed say measure. Once the measures are established senine, seon, shum, wages were then payed on those measures. Notice it does not say a gold seon or a gold shum. It states they were payed a senine OF gold which is indicative of a measured portion of gold.

You are right it does say that and these would have been measured out in accordance to the command of the king and used as tender across the kingdom.. In short COINS!! Your church agrees with that why are you fighting it so hard.. Is it because if that were the case you would have more reason to doubt the BofM? Sounds like it to me.. It doesn't seem logical that there would be a scale in ever shop and office of ever wage payer to measure out the proper amount of gold and silver when it could have been controlled beyond the evil intent of men to short change each other by having coins.. The Greeks did, the Romans did.. Even the Israelites did as money was donated to the temple service.. But a people who had a strong connection to Israel never though to standardize the measure of their precious metals only the measure of them? You have a weak point here that just doesn't make sense, especially when your own church confirms Nephite coinage..


The trouble is Jim the BoM doesn’t mention coins. You’re up the creek on this one. You can offer your conjecture all day, but the evidence for cultures in Mesoamerica and the text are against you. Yet, you are insistent to defy what is right in front of you. This strikes me as perhaps one of your doubts back in the day when you were LDS. It must be troubling to discover that perhaps one of the reasons you left the church was in fact unfounded.

I have the church's own interpretation on this point.. You are OUTSIDE that interpretation.. They teach that the senine, the seon, and the shum, were all coins.. But thing is I also agree with you that no such things ever existed.. That there is no evidence for anything of the kind anywhere in the Americas.. You seem to be right only in the denial of their existence.. No where is there any outside support for any standard measure that controlled any precious metal. Nothing the LDS church teaches about coins and nothing toy claim to be a standard measure ever existed.. It id you and your false church that is up the creek here. I am just standing on the bank watching you float by.. I am trying hard to throw you a rope but you keep insisting that that roar you hear coming from down stream isn't a man killing waterfall.. because the BofM has nothing within it that can stand as evidence, that not even the narrow neck of land can or will be identified by the church I feel totally comfortable calling the BofM a work of fiction written by Joseph Smith and edited by Oliver Cowdry.. IHS jim

[urloony]

You just will not accept the meaning the rest of the world has for a coin.. Even your own church calls these units of measures gold and silver pieces, coins.. In a search done of LDS.org completed for the word coin I found this explanation:
You appear to be one Mormon that refuses to bow to the idea that Alma 11:4 is an confirmation that a Senum is a Nephite coin..
Early on in the church it was hypothesized that what Alma 11 was describing was in fact coins. This is understood now to be wrong. I have no doubt that what you found in the index on the church site is a remnant of that hypothesis. Further study of the text and the fact that the word “coins” is never used in the BoM text has prompted this change. Earlier edition of the BoM stated “Nephite coinage” in the intro to Alma 11. This has also been changed in light of what the text actually says.

The Maxwell Ins***ute agrees with me that Nephite coins existed while they disagree with you that they did not..
Hardly Jim. You don’t have the foggiest idea about this issue and how the MI has responded to it. I challenge you to find a single article from the MI that supports your claim. A HUGE CFR on the Maxwell Ins***ute agreeing with you on Nephite coins.

[urloony]

The Maxwell Ins***ute agrees with me that Nephite coins existed while they disagree with you that they did not..
Here is the Maxwell Ins***ute "agreeing" with you Jim...

"One of the clearest examples of falsification is the subject of coinage in the Book of Mormon. Unfortunately, Living Hope Ministries is guilty of presenting the false impression that the Book of Mormon actually describes the use of coins in Alma 11… Alma 11 does not describe a coinage system but rather a weights-and-measures system in which the Nephites "altered their reckoning and their measure, according to the minds and the circumstances of the people" (v. 4)."
http://maxwellins***ute.byu.edu/publications/review/?vol=18&num=1&id=598

"It should be clear from all of the foregoing that we are talking here about weights and measures, not coins. When the Book of Mormon speaks of "the different pieces of their gold, and of their silver," as well as naming them "according to their value" (Alma 11:4), we should probably not think that it is referring to minted coins."
http://maxwellins***ute.byu.edu/publications/jbms/?vol=8&num=2&id=566

"We still get lots of letters, especially from churchmen, protesting that the mention of money in the Book of Mormon is another crude anachronism. They all point out that coinage was first invented by the Lydians in the eighth century B.C. That would make coinage available to Lehi, but the Book of Mormon says nothing about coins, but only money, which is a different thing."
http://maxwellins***ute.byu.edu/publications/books/?bookid=74&chapid=916

"And, by the way, for the umpteenth time, the Book of Mormon never claims that there were "coins" in the ancient New World. The text of the Book of Mormon mentions neither the word coin nor any variant thereof. The reference to "Nephite coinage" in the chapter heading to Alma 11 is not part of the original text and is mistaken. Alma 11 is almost certainly talking about standardized weights of metal—a historical step toward coinage, true, but not yet the real thing.4 (I wonder how many more times we will have to point this out.)"
http://maxwellins***ute.byu.edu/publications/review/?vol=8&num=1&id=207

I had to laugh at Dr. Peterson's emphasis on this point!

[James Banta]

Early on in the church it was hypothesized that what Alma 11 was describing was in fact coins. This is understood now to be wrong. I have no doubt that what you found in the index on the church site is a remnant of that hypothesis. Further study of the text and the fact that the word “coins” is never used in the BoM text has prompted this change. Earlier edition of the BoM stated “Nephite coinage” in the intro to Alma 11. This has also been changed in light of what the text actually says.

Hardly Jim. You don’t have the foggiest idea about this issue and how the MI has responded to it. I challenge you to find a single article from the MI that supports your claim. A HUGE CFR on the Maxwell Ins***ute agreeing with you on Nephite coins.

You are right.. I was confused by your usage of different authorities that say different thing This is the quote I based mt comment on..


Most recently a burial containing 12,000 pieces of metal "money" (though not coins as such) was found in Ecuador, for the first time confirming that some ancient South Americans had the idea of accumulating a fortune in more or less standard units of metal wealth. Such a startling find in Mesoamerica could change our present limited ideas.
(John L. Sorenson, An Ancient American Setting for the Book of Mormon (Salt Lake City, Utah : Deseret Book Co. ; Provo, Utah : Foundation for Ancient Research and Mormon Studies, 1996 [1985]), 232–233.)

First you demand that no coins existed then you demand that they did which is it.. I quoted a source directly from LDS.org that looked to Alma 11 as PROOF that there were coins among the fictional Nephites.. You have not shown that such didn't exist.. No one carried scales around with then to pay the Fictional judges of Alma 11.. In fact there is no evidence that scales existed among the any REAL people of the Americas.

All though I do see the Maxwell Ins***ute and FARMS back peddling of the idea that the text of coins existing in the ancient America it is clear that the LDS official site still holds that idea.
Again I quote From LDS.org in it's Index to the triple combination found as I looked for the word "senine"


Index to the triple combination

Coin
see also Amnor [coin]; Ezrom; Limnah; Money; Onti; Senine; Senum; Seon; Shiblon [coin]; Shiblum; Shum.

Nephite coins and measures explained, Alma 11:1–9

There is no escape except in the double talk of the Maxwell Inst or FARMS that can object to this.. By insisting that in the precolumbian Americas there were no coins and trying to re bend LDS dogma to that fresh view of reality doesn't excuse the fact that Joseph Smith didn't know there weren't any coins used in trade and exclude the idea of coinage into his work i n g o r a n t l y. But I have shown that such a belief in coinage was held and still is held by the LDS church and many of it's followers as is seen in the OFFICIAL online reference of the LDS church, LDS.org.. If you want to believe the non official statements of organization that have no official voice then I will have you also accept the non official statements credited to Joseph Smith concerning polygamy, sale of the BofM Copy right in Canada, and even the hereditary right to the presidency of his church.. It was therefore taught within the church long before the science of anthropology had any corrective power over the ideas some member of the LDS church now hold that coins were part of the Nephite culture.. Why were, why are prophets of God wrong about such a simple thing? IHS jim

[James Banta]

Here is the Maxwell Ins***ute "agreeing" with you Jim...

"One of the clearest examples of falsification is the subject of coinage in the Book of Mormon. Unfortunately, Living Hope Ministries is guilty of presenting the false impression that the Book of Mormon actually describes the use of coins in Alma 11… Alma 11 does not describe a coinage system but rather a weights-and-measures system in which the Nephites "altered their reckoning and their measure, according to the minds and the circumstances of the people" (v. 4)."
http://maxwellins***ute.byu.edu/publications/review/?vol=18&num=1&id=598

"It should be clear from all of the foregoing that we are talking here about weights and measures, not coins. When the Book of Mormon speaks of "the different pieces of their gold, and of their silver," as well as naming them "according to their value" (Alma 11:4), we should probably not think that it is referring to minted coins."
http://maxwellins***ute.byu.edu/publications/jbms/?vol=8&num=2&id=566

"We still get lots of letters, especially from churchmen, protesting that the mention of money in the Book of Mormon is another crude anachronism. They all point out that coinage was first invented by the Lydians in the eighth century B.C. That would make coinage available to Lehi, but the Book of Mormon says nothing about coins, but only money, which is a different thing."
http://maxwellins***ute.byu.edu/publications/books/?bookid=74&chapid=916

"And, by the way, for the umpteenth time, the Book of Mormon never claims that there were "coins" in the ancient New World. The text of the Book of Mormon mentions neither the word coin nor any variant thereof. The reference to "Nephite coinage" in the chapter heading to Alma 11 is not part of the original text and is mistaken. Alma 11 is almost certainly talking about standardized weights of metal—a historical step toward coinage, true, but not yet the real thing.4 (I wonder how many more times we will have to point this out.)"
http://maxwellins***ute.byu.edu/publications/review/?vol=8&num=1&id=207

I had to laugh at Dr. Peterson's emphasis on this point!

And yet on the official LDS online organ it points to the teaching that a Senine is a coin and not just a measure,, It is you by right of what YOUR church teaches that it is a coin.. You can quote all the secondary unofficical authorities but the official authorities teaches 180 Degrees differently.. I have quoted that authority LDS.org and all you throw at me is unofficaial teachers like the members of the Maxwell Inst.. They are NOT LDS church authorities.. They teach nonsense that officials of the church avoid at all cost, the location of the Hill Cumorah is an example of that. Your new modernist view about Alma 11 not being a discription of BofM coinage is the same kind of modernist belief that the real Hill Cumorah is not is up state New York but instead part of the landscape ***ociated with the South and Central American civilizations found there.. But still the LDS church teaches that President Joseph Fielding Smith taught:


EARLY BRETHREN LOCATE CUMORAH IN WESTERN NEW YORK. It must be conceded that this description fits perfectly the land of Cumorah in New York, as it has been known since the visitation of Moroni to the Prophet Joseph Smith, for the hill is in the proximity of the Great Lakes and also in the land of many rivers and fountains. Moreover, the Prophet Joseph Smith himself is on record, definitely declaring the present hill called Cumorah to be the exact hill spoken of in the Book of Mormon." (Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, Vol.3, Bookcraft, 1956, p.232-43.)..

The modernist view of what is real and what is not is opinion. The real (Not true but what mormonism really believes is stated by it's leaders. Like the Hill Cumorah being in Up State New York, a Senine is a coin.. IHS jim

[urloony]

But I have shown that such a belief in coinage was held and still is held by the LDS church and many of it's followers as is seen in the OFFICIAL online reference of the LDS church, LDS.org..
This is a false claim. The best example of this is the change in the heading to Alma 11. It's clear that it is no longer believed that the Nephites used a coinage system.

It would appear that even Bill McKeaver is in agreement on this point:


First, the LDS Church has seen no reason to delete or modify the introduction to Alma 11 despite the protests from the above–named laymembers. It reads the same today as it has since 1920. If coinage is not meant, it seems strange that the church would continue to print this particular heading. On this point alone, the LDS apologist's conclusion seems presumptuous since this introduction to Alma 11 was obviously approved by the LDS First Presidency.
(mrm.org)

Well guess what? The heading to Alma 11 has changed. According to Bill this is indicative that the First Presidency has abandoned the previous hypothesis that the Nephite’s used coins.


The Nephite monetary system is set forth—Amulek contends with Zeezrom—Christ will not save people in their sins—Only those who inherit the kingdom of heaven are saved—All men will rise in immortality—There is no death after the Resurrection. About 82 B.C.
(The heading to Alma 11 as it appears today.)
At this point Jim, I think it's pretty obvious that the BoM is not talking about coins. I know that you will continue to belabor this point, but I encourage you to read the text for what it says and examine the evidence. Furthermore, you now have the Maxwell Ins***ute, The First Presidency, and Bill McKeever disagreeing with you. It's time to let this one go.

[James Banta]

This is a false claim. The best example of this is the change in the heading to Alma 11. It's clear that it is no longer believed that the Nephites used a coinage system.

It would appear that even Bill McKeaver is in agreement on this point:


Well guess what? The heading to Alma 11 has changed. According to Bill this is indicative that the First Presidency has abandoned the previous hypothesis that the Nephite’s used coins.

At this point Jim, I think it's pretty obvious that the BoM is not talking about coins. I know that you will continue to belabor this point, but I encourage you to read the text for what it says and examine the evidence. Furthermore, you now have the Maxwell Ins***ute, The First Presidency, and Bill McKeever disagreeing with you. It's time to let this one go.

This is the heading to Alma 11 as written in LDS.org (The only BofM I have).


The Book of Alma the Son of Alma
Chapter 11

The Nephite monetary system is set forth...

That gives no reason to find that the measure of gold and silver is not a coin.. I will agree that mormonism has changed.. It has even changed the text of the BofM, adding to some section while adding to others.. It wouldn't surprise me if they kept on doing so but as I can see in Alma 11 no change has been made to deny that coins were used and since none has survived it is doubtful that even the Nephite nation revealed in the BofM even existed at all.. It is a better bet that the whole of the BofM is nothing but fiction..


Yes I think we can let it go.. I remain one that sees coins in this p***age, you don't, ok.. I will agree with you.. NO COINS EVER EXISTED. At the same time there was no Nephi, Lehi, Laman, Mosiah, or Alma.. Such are all fictional characters is poorly written bible based novel.. If you want to see good writing in a book based in the Bible read the Lion the Witch and the Wardrobe IHS jim

[RealFakeHair]

How about cocoa beans is that more "organized?" (http://www.authenticmaya.com/maya_trade_and_economy.htm)
"All of history" eh?
http://cdn2.spiegel.de/images/image-208145-galleryV9-kumy.jpg

When it came to precious metals, the rules just love to put their likeness onto the melal, gold being the most desire.
You might have a argument if the Book of Mormon didn't have its main characters in the first half of the book migrating to the New World, (America) from civilization that did coin their money with images.

So once again, the Book of Mormon proves itself to be a work of fiction.
The day that the LDS come to this conclusion the better.
Just think of it as a inspired work of fiction, and give I believe the LDS inc. Will receive respect for their decision.

[James Banta]

When it came to precious metals, the rules just love to put their likeness onto the melal, gold being the most desire.
You might have a argument if the Book of Mormon didn't have its main characters in the first half of the book migrating to the New World, (America) from civilization that did coin their money with images.

So once again, the Book of Mormon proves itself to be a work of fiction.
The day that the LDS come to this conclusion the better.
Just think of it as a inspired work of fiction, and give I believe the LDS inc. Will receive respect for their decision.

I agree.. From a nation that produced both gold and silver coins, it is impossible to believe that they would use raw gold measured out in a cup instead of a measured coin with the kings seal of trust embossed into it.. This new modernest view that is emerging in mormonism after the thinking that the BofM taught that their gold measures were coins for well over 100 years had to be changed because of realizations of how real American Indians handles trade.. Just as many modernest within mormonism want to move the location of the "real" Hill Cumorah from New York to central America, the idea that Alma 11 isn't teaching coinage is another example of how "truth" is flexible inside mormonism.. IHS jim

[RealFakeHair]

I agree.. From a nation that produced both gold and silver coins, it is impossible to believe that they would use raw gold measured out in a cup instead of a measured coin with the kings seal of trust embossed into it.. This new modernest view that is emerging in mormonism after the thinking that the BofM taught that their gold measures were coins for well over 100 years had to be changed because of realizations of how real American Indians handles trade.. Just as many modernest within mormonism want to move the location of the "real" Hill Cumorah from New York to central America, the idea that Alma 11 isn't teaching coinage is another example of how "truth" is flexible inside mormonism.. IHS jim

I see it this way; If anyone believes in Joseph Smith jr. There is nothing they won't believe, no matter how ridiculous it might sound.

Although I give the TBMs a hard time here, I do understand how difficult it is for them when they are outside their Safety zone, or Twilight Zone.

Once again the question is left out there; how much is one piece of identifiable mormon money?

[urloony]

but as I can see in Alma 11 no change has been made to deny that coins were used...

In previous editions of the BoM the heading to Alma 11 stated:

"Nephite coinage set forth - Amulek contends with Zeezrom..."

As I posted previously, the most recent editions do not state "Nephite coinage," to reflect that the fact that the Nephites did not use coins. A monetary system does not require the use of coins as shown by the ancient Mayan monetary system.

I shouldn't have to point this out but will anyway lest you get confused, but chapter headings are not part of the original BoM text and are simply added for the benefit of the reader as chapter summaries and have been revised as necessary over the years since they were first added in 1920.

[urloony]

When it came to precious metals, the rules just love to put their likeness onto the melal, gold being the most desire.
You might have a argument if the Book of Mormon didn't have its main characters in the first half of the book migrating to the New World, (America) from civilization that did coin their money with images.

You might have a point if Alma didn't specifically state that the Nephite system was different.

"And the names are given by the Nephites, for they did not reckon after the manner of the Jews who were at Jerusalem; neither did they measure after the manner of the Jews; but they altered their reckoning and their measure, according to the minds and the circumstances of the people..."
Alma 11:4

Whether it's a fictional account or not, the text is very specific with regard to its monetary system and coins are never mentioned.

[James Banta]

You might have a point if Alma didn't specifically state that the Nephite system was different.

"And the names are given by the Nephites, for they did not reckon after the manner of the Jews who were at Jerusalem; neither did they measure after the manner of the Jews; but they altered their reckoning and their measure, according to the minds and the circumstances of the people..."
Alma 11:4

Whether it's a fictional account or not, the text is very specific with regard to its monetary system and coins are never mentioned.

Loony Lonny.. Only the measure was different.. According to you it was closer to an ounce that a measure of the Shekel.. Just because a different measure was used doesn't mean that the measure wasn't a coin.. A people who were familiar with holding their gold and silver in the form of coins would have the measure of their exchangeable wealth in coins not a box of rare gold and silver ore. As I said you believe they used a box or a cup to measure their gold and silver.. By the authority of the Alma 11 p***age we see coins.. To bad that there are no coins.. But since there were never any Nephites either, it makes sense none exist.. IHS jim

[urloony]

Loony Lonny.. Only the measure was different.. According to you it was closer to an ounce that a measure of the Shekel.. Just because a different measure was used doesn't mean that the measure wasn't a coin.. A people who were familiar with holding their gold and silver in the form of coins would have the measure of their exchangeable wealth in coins not a box of rare gold and silver ore. As I said you believe they used a box or a cup to measure their gold and silver.. By the authority of the Alma 11 p***age we see coins.. To bad that there are no coins.. But since there were never any Nephites either, it makes sense none exist.. IHS jim
Back to square one. Where does the Book of Mormon say they used coins?

[RealFakeHair]

You might have a point if Alma didn't specifically state that the Nephite system was different.

"And the names are given by the Nephites, for they did not reckon after the manner of the Jews who were at Jerusalem; neither did they measure after the manner of the Jews; but they altered their reckoning and their measure, according to the minds and the circumstances of the people..."
Alma 11:4

Whether it's a fictional account or not, the text is very specific with regard to its monetary system and coins are never mentioned.

You are proving my point here for me.
If the fictional Niephites didn't mint their coins like the jews of the Old Testament then how would it look?
First of all the jews didn't mint their coins with images, second, surely the fictional Nephites would have come up with a measure system to save time and for convenience, some kind of uniformity in indemnification, and purity.

[Snow Patrol]

Loony Lonny..

Uh James, you wouldn't by chance be making fun of someone's name or something more offensive like calling someone "silly" are you? We all know how you feel about that.

[James Banta]

Uh James, you wouldn't by chance be making fun of someone's name or something more offensive like calling someone "silly" are you? We all know how you feel about that.

No more than his choice of a handle in the first place.. If he can use it how he spelled it I can shorten it and turn the effect back onto him.. If he (as an example, called himself ImTed I would call Him Ted.. But he didn't do that now did he.. It used a name that could be considered the same attack that you charge me with.. You have seen me post to you before.. I call you Snow.. That is because your handle is not an attack on others but is that your complete handle, NO.. Just as you called me James.. Not my complete handle either.. Look at the way I address Julie.. She used a word Big in front of it.. I could run with that but since it is not an attack on others as Loony's is, I just call her Julie..

If Loony would change his handle to something a bit less provocative then he would have it turned around on him as it appears I am doing.. He charges all who see his posts that we are the ones who are loony.. He dished it out he can take it back.. I never called him silly.. I used the same language he uses to address other posters, LOONY.. Talk to him and get him to remove the attack language found in his handle but until then I will continue calling him Loony. IHS jim

[Snow Patrol]

And you are sure that URLoony is his evaluation of the posters here? It couldn't be his nickname? I have no idea, just wondering.

[James Banta]

Back to square one. Where does the Book of Mormon say they used coins?

Alma 11.. Do you want to go through all that again? The LDS church in it's online presents agrees with that statement.. The modernest in the church ignore the teaching of this held by the LDS church for will over 100 years. They have modified their position because of the lack of evidence that there was precolumbian usage of coins in that economy.. IHS jim

[urloony]

Alma 11.. Do you want to go through all that again? The LDS church in it's online presents agrees with that statement.. The modernest in the church ignore the teaching of this held by the LDS church for will over 100 years. They have modified their position because of the lack of evidence that there was precolumbian usage of coins in that economy.. IHS jim
But Jimmy, I already pointed out that the heading to Alma 11 has changed to reflect the abandonment of the idea the Nephites ever used coins. You are merely arguing to argue at this point.

[James Banta]

But Jimmy, I already pointed out that the heading to Alma 11 has changed to reflect the abandonment of the idea the Nephites ever used coins. You are merely arguing to argue at this point.

Yes you have and I accept that.. Can you accept that "prophets" of God believers that the p***age was about Nephite coins? Are you willing to acknowledge that to this day on the official LDS online site it is still there that a senine is a coin.. So that would indication that the idea that Nephite coins did exist is not completely abandoned by the church.. Can you see that? of are you going to argue from a point that like mine is extrascriptural? Or are you now telling me that chapter heading have the same authority as the p***age it's self? IHS jim

[RealFakeHair]

Yes you have and I accept that.. Can you accept that "prophets" of God believers that the p***age was about Nephite coins? Are you willing to acknowledge that to this day on the official LDS online site it is still there that a senine is a coin.. So that would indication that the idea that Nephite coins did exist is not completely abandoned by the church.. Can you see that? of are you going to argue from a point that like mine is extrascriptural? Or are you now telling me that chapter heading have the same authority as the p***age it's self? IHS jim

Once a TBM permits a crack in the belief system created by Joseph Smith jr. Imginary mind, the **** will soon collapse.
The maze of mormonism is nothing more than a path of dead ends. Every time a TBM stands on their tippy toes to dare look over the hedges the LDS apologist pail up the fertilizer and water the hedgerow with excuses after excuse, and the hedge grows and grows until the TBM is trapped.

[James Banta]

In previous editions of the BoM the heading to Alma 11 stated:

"Nephite coinage set forth - Amulek contends with Zeezrom..."

As I posted previously, the most recent editions do not state "Nephite coinage," to reflect that the fact that the Nephites did not use coins. A monetary system does not require the use of coins as shown by the ancient Mayan monetary system.

I shouldn't have to point this out but will anyway lest you get confused, but chapter headings are not part of the original BoM text and are simply added for the benefit of the reader as chapter summaries and have been revised as necessary over the years since they were first added in 1920.


I believe that is what I have said here.. The chapter heading ARE not part of your scripture and therefore are meaningless as to defining the meaning of the p***ages. What is important here is what was taught by the early LDS leaders that are much closer to Smith and therefore the genesis of the BofM.. Today's modernists take the knowledge discovered by anthropologists and try to incorporate those discovered facts into Smith fiction. Sometimes it works sometimes it doesn't.. Alma 11 for over 100 Years was taught by the LDS church to be a coinage system. Changing the teaching to reflect the truth of how ancient American Indians traded precious metals is revisionist. I understand the need because holding the same teachings that mormonism was first taught flies in the face of reality just as much as the Jarodite ships, Or a headless man gasping for breath.. IHS jim

[RealFakeHair]

In the case of Nephite coins there is little relevance to what early leaders taught. I have yet to see a revelation that identifies coins as the monetary system of the Nephites. Rather it was an ***umption made at a time when far less was known about BoM lands. I have no problem with accepting the fact that a lack of coins archaeologically causes a re****ysis of the text. Do you believe this is NEVER done with the Biblical text? Furthermore, I have yet to find anything referring to “coins” prior to the 1920’s with regard to the Nephite monetary system. If anything the chapter heading to Alma 11 printed in 1920 is the “modernistic approach.”

This is a bold face lie and you a liar for stating it.

What does a boldless face liar look like? I have seen the portrait of Joseph Smith jr change over the past 100 years, so my guess is the face of a boldless liar keeps changing.

[James Banta]

And you are sure that URLoony is his evaluation of the posters here? It couldn't be his nickname? I have no idea, just wondering.

A new nickname is called for... IHS jim

[urloony]

A new nickname is called for... IHS jim

I will accept this as you officially conceding this debate. If it has come to mocking and then insisting for a name change you have simply run out of useful commentary for the OP.

[James Banta]

I will accept this as you officially conceding this debate. If it has come to mocking and then insisting for a name change you have simply run out of useful commentary for the OP.

It was Snow that started the train about your nickname on here.. I personally don;t care what your nick is.. As far as holding the idea the BofM teaches coinage I still stick to that.. You haven't shown me where any historic GA has denied that teaching. All I have seen is a redefinition of history by the LDS church to match discovered anthropology in terms of coins or no coins. But even with the move of the modernists there still is TODAY an official LDS claim that a senine is a coin.

Senine—Nephite coin (http://www.lds.org/scriptures/triple-index/senine?lang=eng&query=senine) Look it up for yourself.. IHS jim

[Russianwolfe]

It was Snow that started the train about your nickname on here.. I personally don;t care what your nick is.. As far as holding the idea the BofM teaches coinage I still stick to that.. You haven't shown me where any historic GA has denied that teaching. All I have seen is a redefinition of history by the LDS church to match discovered anthropology in terms of coins or no coins. But even with the move of the modernists there still is TODAY an official LDS claim that a senine is a coin.

Senine—Nephite coin (http://www.lds.org/scriptures/triple-index/senine?lang=eng&query=senine) Look it up for yourself.. IHS jim

It doesn't matter what authority has said. It only matters what the Book of Mormon claims. Many have made claims about what the Book of Mormon is. The problem is most of them are attempting to force the Book of Mormon to be something it never claims to be. This coinage thing is your attempt to force the book to be saying something it does not say.

If you read the text carefully, you will not be able to say that it is talking about coins. Coins started near the time that Lehi left Jerusalem. Until that time, things were measured out. Just as the Book of Mormon says. These are weights and meansures.

Marvin

[James Banta]

It doesn't matter what authority has said. It only matters what the Book of Mormon claims. Many have made claims about what the Book of Mormon is. The problem is most of them are attempting to force the Book of Mormon to be something it never claims to be. This coinage thing is your attempt to force the book to be saying something it does not say.

If you read the text carefully, you will not be able to say that it is talking about coins. Coins started near the time that Lehi left Jerusalem. Until that time, things were measured out. Just as the Book of Mormon says. These are weights and meansures.

Marvin

These people came from a civilization that measured their gold and silver in the form of coins. It would be as natural from them to do that as it was for the rel inhabitants of the Americas to use more of a barter system of fish, and farm produce to trade for the goods produced by others. Using gold and silver was just as important to these peoples as was the use of "brightly colored shells, bird feathers and animal skins (particularly Jaguar) were all highly prized status symbols. Stones and gemstones such as jade, obsidian and basalt, along with gold, copper, rubber, amber, cotton, fish, tobacco, chocolate, spices, salt and dyes were all important trade items. (The pre Columbian Civilisations of Central America - The Mesoamericans; https://sites.google.com/site/medievalwarmperiod/Home/drought-floods-famine-and-central-and-south-america/the-pre-columbian-civilizations-of-central-america).. Unlike the teaching of the BofM Gold and silver were not the main ingredient of the per-Colombian barter economic system. There was no standard for trade it was what two parties of a trade agreed what was fair. Shells and feathers were more important.. That is the truth of the medium of exchange in ancient America. It was NOT based in Gold and Silver.. In a Hebrew culture Gold and silver were that medium and it is carried forward by Smith that such metals were also used as the standard of trade established by the king.. If that were the case then the people would have used the same style of their use as they were a custom, that would have been coins..

Like it or not the Temple Sheckle was well established before The fictional Lehi left Jerusalem. Coins were established as a medium of trade and not a mere measure of gold silver or grain.. IHS Jim

[RealFakeHair]

It doesn't matter what authority has said. It only matters what the Book of Mormon claims. Many have made claims about what the Book of Mormon is. The problem is most of them are attempting to force the Book of Mormon to be something it never claims to be. This coinage thing is your attempt to force the book to be saying something it does not say.

If you read the text carefully, you will not be able to say that it is talking about coins. Coins started near the time that Lehi left Jerusalem. Until that time, things were measured out. Just as the Book of Mormon says. These are weights and meansures.

Marvin

There is only 1 fact, or claim related to the Book of Mormon, and it is this: it is a work of fiction.
Now for mormonism it means much more to you, and I understand it, but for us who know better, I remind you there is but 1 claim.

[alanmolstad]

Just read today where 15 million dollars worth of First century Roman coins were found in the UK. This leads me to wonder what a single Book of Mormon coin would be worth if found?
If found, it would be the only real proof to any of the claims of the Mormons....

It would be the proof that they could use to finally have something to point to to support their whole religion.

Thus if such single coin were found and it was real?....it would be priceless.

My guess is that the area where it would be found would be fenced off, and the coin itself would have a whole new building constructed for it's display.....

[RealFakeHair]

If found, it would be the only real proof to any of the claims of the Mormons....

It would be the proof that they could use to finally have something to point to to support their whole religion.

Thus if such single coin were found and it was real?....it would be priceless.

My guess is that the area where it would be found would be fenced off, and the coin itself would have a whole new building constructed for it's display.....

If such a coin was found the inscription on the face of the coin would read, "In Joseph Smith jr. We trust"! :cool:

[alanmolstad]

If such a coin was found the inscription on the face of the coin would read, "In Joseph Smith jr. We trust"! :cool:
my guess is that because the guy was well known to be running around digging up other peoples money, that sooner or later someone inspired by such actions will try to come forward with a 'found" coin.....

its like with Scientology and the guy who started it, and the fact they he was a well known writer of Sci-Fi, thus its not really a big leap to believe that sooner or later one of his followers will come forward with a claim that they have made "contact" with life from another world...

its just what you have to expect from the type of people that get sucked into believing in this type of stuff...



so a coin that gets "found" in order to support Mormonism?....yes, it could one day be in the news....

[alanmolstad]

just read today where 15 million dollars worth of first century roman coins were found in the uk. This leads me to wonder what a single book of mormon coin would be worth if found?
can things made of metal be dated?

[RealFakeHair]

can things made of metal be dated?

The metal plate in my head is dated to 1974.

[James Banta]

The metal plate in my head is dated to 1974.

Is inscribed with a new message from God? Maybe we should cut it out and make sure.. :) IHS jim