Bible's teaching about Justification by Faith and by Works,

[alanmolstad]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rcf1J6AJB9M

at around 1:20 of the video Walter talks about the two bible concepts of Justification by faith, and Justification by Works...

the two ideas are both true and supported by the Bible, but are talking about two different ideas...

[dberrie2000]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rcf1J6AJB9M

at around 1:20 of the video Walter talks about the two bible concepts of Justification by faith, and Justification by Works...

the two ideas are both true and supported by the Bible, but are talking about two different ideas...

But when the Bible talked about faith and works--they were not two different stories:


James 2:26---King James Version (KJV)


26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

[Billyray]

But when the Bible talked about faith and works--they were not two different stories:


James 2:26---King James Version (KJV)


26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

So you would agree that James is teaching that those who have faith and are saved will naturally produce works?

[alanmolstad]

I still like to drop back once in a while, and watch Walter Martin tell it like it is.....LOL

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post----But when the Bible talked about faith and works--they were not two different stories:


James 2:26---King James Version (KJV)


26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.


So you would agree that James is teaching that those who have faith and are saved will naturally produce works?

James states it is dead faith without works.

Do you believe dead faith can save one?

Or do you believe in faith alone?


James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)


24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

[Billyray]

James states it is dead faith without works.


LDS Articles of Faith
4 We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by eimmersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.

In the 4th Article of Faith--faith precedes any works. Are you telling me that this is not real faith (or dead faith)?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post----But when the Bible talked about faith and works--they were not two different stories:


James 2:26---King James Version (KJV)


26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.


Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View PostSo you would agree that James is teaching that those who have faith and are saved will naturally produce works?


dberrie----James states it is dead faith without works.

Do you believe dead faith can save one?

Or do you believe in faith alone?

James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)


24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.



LDS Articles of Faith 4 We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by eimmersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.

In the 4th Article of Faith--faith precedes any works. Are you telling me that this is not real faith (or dead faith)?

Billyray--you have asked me this question numerous times--and my answer remains the same:

If it is not followed by obedience to Jesus Christ--it is dead faith.


1 Corinthians 9:26-27---King James Version (KJV)


26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air:

27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.


1 Corinthians 7:19---King James Version (KJV)


19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

[James Banta]

[/B]



Billyray--you have asked me this question numerous times--and my answer remains the same:

If it is not followed by obedience to Jesus Christ--it is dead faith.


1 Corinthians 9:26-27---King James Version (KJV)


26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air:

27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.


1 Corinthians 7:19---King James Version (KJV)


19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

If anyone at any time was obedient to the commandments of God I would agree that there is hope of salvation through obedience. But not one of us (Mankind) has ever been obedient. We have all gone our own way (Isaiah 53:6). Tell me when Paul write the p***age see find in 1 Cor 7:19, wasn't circumcision a command of God to Israel? Yes it was.. But here he teaches that it's more important to keep the commandment rather than to keep the commandment? Just what does that mean? It is better to "Be perfect as the Father in heaven is perfect" (Matthew 4:48) than to DO THINGS. And how is it that we can be perfect since we are all sinners? The Holy Spirit make this clear through the Apostle Paul:

Romans 4:23-24
Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;
But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead

If the righteousness of Jesus is imputed on us where do we fail to be obedient? That is like saying Jesus was NOT obedient to the word of the Father.. Are you ready to utter such a blasphemy? IHS jim

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
[/B]



Billyray--you have asked me this question numerous times--and my answer remains the same:

If it is not followed by obedience to Jesus Christ--it is dead faith.


1 Corinthians 9:26-27---King James Version (KJV)


26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air:

27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.


1 Corinthians 7:19---King James Version (KJV)


19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.


If anyone at any time was obedient to the commandments of God I would agree that there is hope of salvation through obedience. But not one of us (Mankind) has ever been obedient.

How does your postulations collate with the scriptures? :


Genesis 26:4-5---King James Version (KJV)


4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;

5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

[alanmolstad]

test
im testing this out....



(Edit, for some reason i was unable to post on a topic a moment ago, but here it posts fine?)

[alanmolstad]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rcf1J6AJB9M


So learn what "works" God's Word is talking about when it says "Faith without works is dead" please watch the video at the 2:00 moment to see Walter talk about what is "Thee work of God"....

[theway]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rcf1J6AJB9M


So learn what "works" God's Word is talking about when it says "Faith without works is dead" please watch the video at the 2:00 moment to see Walter talk about what is "Thee work of God"....So... "Thee work of God" is merely to believe... Well the demons believe, ergo, they are are doing thee work of God... Right?

The question I would of asked is; What does it mean to believe?

[alanmolstad]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rcf1J6AJB9M


So learn what "works" God's Word is talking about when it says "Faith without works is dead" please watch the video at the 2:00 moment to see Walter talk about what is "Thee work of God"....
This is why Mormons have dead faith....they have No Works..

For the only work that matters according to jesus is to have faith in him...

Mormons are dead in their faith....for faith without works is dead.

[theway]

This is why Mormons have dead faith....they have No Works..

For the only work that matters according to jesus is to have faith in him...

Mormons are dead in their faith....for faith without works is dead.LOL... I always love the desperation of Critics of the LDS Church.
A lifelong Critic of the LDS for years has been leading off every other post of hers with some statement about how the LDS were Polytheist; until just a few months ago. She is now trying to convince everyone that Mormons are in reality, Atheists.

Now it's seems Mormons aren't really all about works, because they have none (according to alanmolstad)

I guess in the mind of Critics, if you constantly lose with one argument, simply ***ert that the opposite is now true.

The problem is that Mormons are neither a works only or a Faith only religion... We are as the 88% of other Christians out there which believe both Faith and works are necessary.
This is easily shown by pointing out that the main tenet in the LDS Church is a faith in Jesus Christ.

“The fundamental principles of our religion are the testimony of the Apostles and Prophets, concerning Jesus Christ, that He died, was buried, and rose again the third day, and ascended into heaven; and all other things which pertain to our religion are only appendages to it” (Joseph Smith)

Also, Article of Faith #4

We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Of course Critics can not accept this because they can not have a Mormon saved. So ironically, they will start adding on things to a Faith Alone in Jesus Christ. They will say we have to have Faith in the version of the gospel that people like Walter Martin preaches, the man-made Trinity doctrine, and a whole host of other beliefs and works that we must now have Faith in OR NOT BELIEVE IN, before we can be saved.

lol... In the end, I could never believe in Faith Alone, it involves too much work.

[Phoenix]

I could never believe in Faith Alone, it involves too much work.

That is a thought-provoking statement, and it has some truth to it.

[dberrie2000]

This is why Mormons have dead faith....they have No Works..For the only work that matters according to jesus is to have faith in him...

Mormons are dead in their faith....for faith without works is dead.

Then why do the faith alone preach a gospel of salvation through a faith without works--if faith without works is dead?

Your conclusion only points to the fact the faith alone believe they can be saved through dead faith.

What is your evidence this is not faith in Christ?

Acts 2:38-42---King James Version (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

2 John 1:9---King James Version (KJV)
9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post---This is why Mormons have dead faith....they have No Works..For the only work that matters according to jesus is to have faith in him...

Mormons are dead in their faith....for faith without works is dead.

Then why do the faith alone preach a gospel of salvation through a faith without works--if faith without works is dead?

Your conclusion only points to the fact the faith alone believe they can be saved through dead faith.

What is your evidence this is not faith in Christ?

Acts 2:38-42---King James Version (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

2 John 1:9---King James Version (KJV)
9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

Bump for Alan