PDA

View Full Version : "Heaven"



Pages : [1] 2

Libby
10-17-2012, 10:19 PM
A neurophysicist has been in the news, recently, recounting a near-death-experience he had, while in a coma (his brain was completely flat-lined).

This man had a vague belief that there may be some kind of creator God, but he did not believe in a "personal God"...a God who loved or cared about individuals.

So, he was in a coma, in a very serious, near death situation, with no brain waves showing, and he had this beautiful experience with God (a God of unconditional love), which totally changed his life.

This is one of thousands of NDE's, all somewhat different.

I read a book by a woman who had no belief in God, who became LDS, after an NDE, because of some things she experienced.


http://www.amazon.com/Stand-All-Amazed-Elane-Durham/dp/1890558273

Very interesting book.

Billyray
10-18-2012, 12:34 AM
A neurophysicist has been in the news, recently, recounting a near-death-experience he had, while in a coma (his brain was completely flat-lined).

The book is over 14 years old. What news was this recently in or are you posting this because the person was Mormon?

Libby
10-18-2012, 12:33 PM
Here's the story about the Neurosurgeon I was describing in the first post. This was in the news a few days ago.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/10/09/eben-alexander-harvard-neurosurgeon-proof-of-heaven-afterlife-coma_n_1951475.html


A successful neurosurgeon, who has taught at Harvard Medical School and other universities, spent his life dismissing claims of heavenly out-of-body experiences and refuting such talk with scientific logic, until he himself had a near-death experience.

During that time, Dr. Eben Alexander says he saw heaven and knows the afterlife exists. Now he's telling the world in his new book, "Proof of Heaven."

Alexander's tale is the cover story on Newsweek's latest issue, which features the headline, "Heaven Is Real: A Doctor's Experience Of The Afterlife." Alexander, a Christian, claims he took the journey to the afterlife when he slipped into a coma in 2008 after contracting a very rare bacterial meningitis.

Libby
10-18-2012, 12:34 PM
This story includes a video about halfway down, with a short description of Dr. Alexander's experience.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2012/10/07/proof-of-heaven-a-doctor-s-experience-with-the-afterlife.html

Billyray
10-18-2012, 12:38 PM
Here's the story about the Neurosurgeon I was describing in the first post. This was in the news a few days ago.


But this is a new story and yet you linked to a story that was written 14 years ago. Why did you do that?

Libby
10-18-2012, 12:43 PM
Because it was ALSO an NDE and someone who had joined the LDS Church because of it. (this is the Mormonism board, right?) Plus, it's a book I had read, myself. I've actually read many books on NDE's. I find it a fascinating subject.

So, do you have an opinion about NDE's (the ones I posted, in particular) or are you just here to har***?

Snow Patrol
10-18-2012, 12:54 PM
But this is a new story and yet you linked to a story that was written 14 years ago. Why did you do that?

Who cares when the book was written? Why do critics of the LDS faith go back hundred plus years to look at things written? Because they are hypocrits?

Libby
10-18-2012, 12:56 PM
Yes, talk about "old news". :)

Libby
10-18-2012, 04:10 PM
The NDE and Pre-Birth
Kevin Williams Research Conclusions

It is not unusual for near-death experiencers returning from clinical death to report having received information concerning their pre-existence before they were conceived in the world. Some experiencers report of learning how they chose various aspects of their lives to be predestined before they were born. Some of the choices people have reported having chosen before birth include the selection of their birth parents, choosing their mission in life, and even choosing how they will die. This knowledge received by near-death experiencers of the past and future shows how some things in life are predestined while other things are not. It shows how free will and predestination both exist and work hand in hand. It means we choose our destiny in life before our birth into the world to live it. Because reincarnation is a concept found in many cultures and religions, the metaphor of life as a river which we chose before we were our birth, shows up in many of these cultures and religions. There are many aspects to a river which make it an excellent ****ogy to help us understand where we came from, where we're going, who we are, why we're here, and what life is all about. The following discussion will attempt to do just that.

http://www.near-death.com/experiences/research01.html

alanmolstad
10-18-2012, 04:39 PM
As far as I can tell.....the whole idea is fake.

I do not believe even one single story of all the ones claimed as true.
It's like a guy saying a dream is real and trying to tell him that the dream was not real.

alanmolstad
10-18-2012, 04:53 PM
what kind of proof would I like to see?


well....it's like this> I knew a lady that claimed to know the future.
She was serious and would tell me she always knew what was going to happen.

I said, "Prove it! give me the 6 numbers and the PowerBall and Im a believer!


So far she has yet to come up with an answer to that challenge.

Libby
10-18-2012, 04:54 PM
As far as I can tell.....the whole idea is fake.

I do not believe even one single story of all the ones claimed as true.
It's like a guy saying a dream is real and trying to tell him that the dream was not real.

Yeah, I understand. A lot of these people who had the NDE's (including the neurosurgeon mentioned above) didn't believe, before it happened to them, either.

I used to be very skeptical of these kinds of things, myself, until I had some experiences of my own.

The thing that is very convincing, in some of these stories, is that some were, technically, brain dead (no activity whatsoever), so it just seems unlikely that the experiences were coming, strictly, from brain "activity".

I have read two stories where the people were "gone" for almost an hour. Elane Durham, whose story I mentioned above, was gone for, either an hour or just under. Her body was being prepped for the morgue, when she started coming back. Her body was stone cold and grey, and yet she made a complete recovery. Nothing short of a miracle, plus how was this happening in a brain showing no activity?

I donno....I know some people are skeptical, but we don't know everything. Far from it.

alanmolstad
10-18-2012, 05:07 PM
the 'stories" are a little too much like stories of UFOs...LOL

I reject them all....

Libby
10-18-2012, 06:21 PM
That's fine.

I think I'll keep an open mind about them. Same for UFO's. :)

alanmolstad
10-18-2012, 06:32 PM
both are fake in my book...

Libby
10-18-2012, 09:26 PM
Further ruminations from the article above.


Life is Like a River Flowing Back to the Sea

If our experience as a human is ****ogous to a journey down a river, then our experience as a spirit is ****ogous to the entire water cycle. Each of us is like a raindrop which fell from a cloud and ultimately entered into a river for the journey back from where it came - the sea. Then the cycle is repeated.

In the same way that a drop of water is a part of the sea and contains within itself the nature of the sea itself, so our spirit is a part of God containing within it the Whole of God itself. This concept of a something being both a part and the Whole is called in science terminology a fractal.

Libby
10-19-2012, 11:18 AM
I think I'm going to share some of Elane's experiences (taken from her book, "I Stand All Amazed"). Elane's NDE eventually led her into the LDS Church, but she doesn't seem to believe that is "everyone's" path.

Comments from Elane, in the beginning of the book:


What you are about to read is a very personal facet of my life, an ongoing series of experiences that began with a Near-Death Experience or Death Vision, and concluded with my conversion to a deeper and more spiritual walk with Christ. These experiences have been as surprising to me as they may be to you. I did not seek them, at least in the format in which they came, yet neither can I deny them. They are more real to me than life itself, and more precious, consequently my life has been forever changed.

Despite this, I do not believe my experiences should be the same as those of any other person. They have been mine alone, tailored by God to my individual and specific needs, and I alone am accountable to God for them and for my responses to them. In the years since my death vision I have interviewed hundreds and hundreds of other experiencers, and I have never found any two of their experiences to be exactly alike, nor any to be like my own. Neither have any two experiencers reacted exactly the same to them. To me this is nothing more than wonderful evidence of the kindness of God as He deals with each of His highly individualistic children on our own levels.

Though I have been sharing portions of my death vision and subsequent life's experiences constantly since 1976,1 am still looking for the best way, using the English language, of explaining them or putting them into words. To this point, at least, my attempts feel inadequate, and I am chagrined by this weakness. Yet from that instant when I entered into the presence of my Lord Jesus Christ and felt His overwhelming love, I knew that it was my responsibility to share that love with others. There are many ways of doing this, of course, and I have tried as many as I can think of. One of the most effective, however, has been to share those portions of my experience I am able to articulate and feel comfortable about sharing. Hence, this book.

Beyond the fact that these things did happen to me, and that I feel commissioned to share Christ's love as well and as often as I can, I make no further claims. I am neither a proselytizing missionary nor a religious or scriptural scholar. Much of what I saw and learned I still do not understand, and some of it I still cannot discuss with others. More, while I have finally found personal peace and a church organization that fills my spiritual needs, I refuse to declare that others must take the same steps I have taken to find their own peace and spiritual fulfillment. As God's children we are highly individualistic beings, and I believe we each have the right to approach Him in whatever manner feels to us most comfortable, and even to not approach Him at all if that is our choice. What you are about to read, therefore, is merely a part of my own experience, my own attempts to interpret it and live according to it, and the results of those attempts. I have written it in as true and accurate a manner as I am able, and my great and only hope is that you who read may feel, as I have, the pure and overwhelming love that God has for each of us. —Elane Durham vii

Durham, Elane (1998-01-08). I Stand All Amazed (Kindle Locations 43-52). Granite Publishing and Distribution. Kindle Edition.

Billyray
10-19-2012, 11:22 AM
Comments from Elane, in the beginning of the book:

". . .More, while I have finally found personal peace and a church organization that fills my spiritual needs, I refuse to declare that others must take the same steps I have taken to find their own peace and spiritual fulfillment. . . "



It seems like the reason you are sharing this is that you believe that Elaine is teaching that there are many ways to heaven and it doesn't really matter what path you take as long as you end up in the same destination.

Libby
10-19-2012, 11:32 AM
I'm sharing because I find her experiences interesting, Billy. Believe as you will.

Edit: Btw, she spells her name Elane (that was not a typo)..

Libby
10-19-2012, 11:40 AM
Circumstances leading up to Elane's death experience:

She was in a hotel room, at a convention for work, sharing a room with a friend, when the following occurred.


A M***IVE HEADACHE

For what I thought was a cold with a severe headache that had been nagging at me for at least half of the three-week floral-design course, I'd left opened but untouched the bottle of cold pills I'd bought a few hours earlier. It was Wednesday, October 20,1 had been in cl*** steadily for two and a half weeks, and I was utterly exhausted from the grueling schedule. Now, with only three days left, I steeled my mind against my blinding headache and the terrible cramps in my legs and feet that had been partially immobilizing me, and willed myself to go to sleep. I had already showered, hoping to ease my discomfort with the hot water. But now it was 11:40 p.m., and I was feeling worse than ever.

A STRANGE DEVELOPMENT

I knew that Rhonda could tell I was suffering, for our beds were beside each other, but I tried to endure silently so she could get her much-needed rest. I recall rolling onto my back trying to get comfortable, and the next thing I remember was Rhonda standing over me, hysterically crying, “Elane! Elane, are you okay?“

Feeling shocked because of her excitement, I responded, “I'm alright. What's the matter?”

“You scared me.” She paused, and then said, “You were thrashing all over the bed and making strange, gurgling noises, and you have blood on your face.”

Unaware that I had experienced the first of what would turn out to be in excess of eleven seizures spread over the next hour, I got out of bed and went into the bathroom. There I saw in the mirror that I had bit my lip and tongue in several places. Trying to calm Rhonda down I told her I was fine and that I'd probably had some crazy dream. As I tried to re***ure her I climbed back into bed and reached to pull my covers up over me, at which time she began to scream again. Only this time her voice faded from my hearing, and I knew nothing.

Libby
10-19-2012, 11:51 AM
My next memory is of being wheeled into the emergency room, only for some reason I was watching it all as though I were walking beside myself, on the right side of the gurney, and not lying on the gurney looking up.

IN THE EMERGENCY ROOM

In the emergency room there was sudden m*** confusion, with men and women scurrying about and people shouting back and forth that I was a probable overdose and was in full arrest. I now know this meant my heart had stopped—I had gone into full cardiac arrest. I was aware that the clock on the wall read 12:40 a.m. I remember them tipping my head back and forcefully shoving something into my mouth and throat to clear an airway. I remember watching as a nurse brought what I later learned were big-bore angio-catheters to place in the pits of my elbows and in the jugular vein in my neck. I remember wondering where they were going to put those huge things, though I have no memory whatsoever of their inserting them. I remember a girl taking a blood sample from my left arm. And I remember orders being shouted back and forth and confirmations being yelled in return—there was just a great deal of hurried confusion.

Durham, Elane (1998-01-08). I Stand All Amazed (Kindle Locations 262-270). Granite Publishing and Distribution. Kindle Edition.

Libby
10-19-2012, 11:55 AM
A meadow in a more beautiful world


Suddenly i was alive and free, running across a most beautiful field. Down near the winding river that was flowing to my right, midst some trees and large rocks, a group of six or seven people were gathered, waiting for me. I “felt” with every part of who i am, someone amongst them say, “she'll soon be here.” another one, looking my way, exclaimed, “there she is!” and again, i “felt” this rather than heard it with my ears.

As far as the eye could see there were white daisies, millions of them, scattered all through the gr***es that rolled off to my right toward the river and the people. And though the daisies were white there were colors everywhere, incredible and subtle hues of colors that i cannot even begin to describe.

To my left a low hill rose with trees and shrubbery scattered across it. The trees, as well as the gr***es and flowers, had a spiritual life force all their own, and again, colors that were unbelievable. I savored a taste in my mouth that i can't begin to describe, though it was absolutely delicious. Music flowed lightly, a harmonious sound that is so hard to describe. It was like everything that existed, from the blades of gr*** to the water of the river, the trees and the earth; the life forces of all these, along with all that i myself was or had ever hoped to be, was somehow blended into a soft wafting melody that was not being played, exactly, but truly existed. Surely it was the most beautiful, peaceful music i had ever heard.

dberrie2000
10-19-2012, 12:53 PM
A meadow in a more beautiful world

Hey--when can we go??????

Libby
10-19-2012, 03:54 PM
Hey--when can we go??????

Sounds beautiful, doesn't it? :)

I'll finish telling her story, later. There's more!

Billyray
10-19-2012, 05:18 PM
I'm sharing because I find her experiences interesting, Billy. Believe as you will.

But you would agree with what she implies in her statement that many roads lead to heaven and it doesn't really matter how you get there as long as you end up in the same place. Right?

alanmolstad
10-19-2012, 05:54 PM
Doing a little posting tonight Billy?

Billyray
10-19-2012, 05:57 PM
Doing a little posting tonight Billy?

You betcha.

Libby
10-20-2012, 12:06 AM
Elane's "death experience" continued......


Filled with the greatest sense of excitement I had ever felt I ran across the gr***es, but somehow my feet didn't touch the ground. Yet still I was moving very rapidly, very easily. My long hair (my hair is thin and very curly, and I have never in my mortal life been able to wear it long) was flowing behind me, and I was dressed in a simple long gown of white material that shimmered with soft, pastel glimmers of more colors than I could begin to comprehend. It was as if the white were alive, and the light about my own being was reflected off it.

DEPARTED RELATIVES

“Hurry Elane! Everyone's waiting!” called a man who was stand ing by a rock under the trees, motioning me to them with a swing of his arm. He was my mother's stepfather who had died when I was about sixteen, and I recognized him immediately. Two ladies broke away from the group, coming toward me. The music continued to play on the air—this whole new world I had discovered created a sound that wafted ever so gently on the breeze. What a beautiful sound—so new and yet so incredibly familiar!

The ladies were now within about twenty feet of me, and I recognized my dad's mother who had been dead since I was about nine. Behind her was my husband's Aunt Virginia, who had died the previous spring. She had been so crippled up in life, yet here she appeared physically perfect! They both seemed young, too; in their late twenties or early thirties!

Wow! I thought. If my kids could just see this! I smiled happily, surprised at Virginia's vibrant good health and thrilled to see all of them, and...

Couple of things that struck me, when I read this. The "white garments" and the "youth" of her relatives (late 20's or so)...both LDS concepts of heaven.

Libby
10-20-2012, 12:10 AM
Story continued...................


BODY SLAM Blam!

A heavy duty body slam brought me back into my body, on the gurney in the Emergency Room! Defibrillator paddles were poised above my chest where they had cut away my nightgown, and I felt my body arch with the jolt when they connected again!

Confusion was all around me. A lab technician who had tested my blood for drugs was shouting that there was nothing in my system, not even aspirin. “Take it again!” ordered a Doctor who loomed above me. “We have to be sure—and put a rush on it!”

For some reason I could see again, and my body, especially my chest and head, hurt more than I can possibly say. I literally felt like I was going to explode. I closed my eyes to try to shut out the pain—the world. Here I was, enclosed in the painful shell of my body, with my memories of that other place so vivid I could hardly stand it, and with all my heart I wanted to go back!

I had just been where I had felt such peace and freedom—and now my world was pain and chaos and confusion. How could I possibly endure it? I didn't feel I could.

Libby
10-20-2012, 12:54 AM
Elane's story continued....


LOST IN THE TWILIGHT

From that point on I had a sense of being in somewhat of a surreal, twilight space—benumbed and sort of beyond feeling as I drifted in and out of awareness—or maybe in and out of my body, for that is what it seemed like. It was as though I somehow had a foot in both worlds, and couldn't make myself go the way I wanted to.

Every few moments a nurse would call out, “Here she goes again!” Or, “Grab her! She's having another one!”

And then the m*** confusion of shouting, furiously working people would increase in intensity. Someone was straddling my hips performing CPR, someone else grabbed the defibrillator paddles and shouted “All clear” as they slammed them onto my chest, a third person was pushing more medications through the big-bore catheters into my body, and all the while at least one physician was shouting constant orders and the others were shouting their responses back again. It was organized chaos.

I now know that I was experiencing what is known as ventricular fibrillation—my heart was fluttering instead of beating. That starved my brain for oxygen, which increased the seizures. These in turn prevented me from breathing and starved my heart for oxygen, increasing the ventricular fibrillation.

It was a vicious downward spiral. And all of this had been caused by the rupture of an unknown tumor in my brain—an Arterial Venous Malformation—which was rapidly bringing me to my death despite what the medical people could do. But more on this medical information a little later.

Libby
10-20-2012, 12:30 PM
Story continued................


AN EXPANDED SPIRITUAL POWER

It was at this time that I lost my sight again and realized that my sense of hearing was all I had left. I couldn't speak, I couldn't even feel. Yet something else was happening, too. My spiritual senses were expanding even as the physical ones diminished. I remember at one point hearing someone saying that they were losing me again and someone else asking what my religion was. A nurse was sent into the waiting room to ask my cousin if she knew. Apparently she told them that she wasn't sure. But since she was Catholic, and since I was wearing a small gold cross around my neck, the nurse ***umed I was Catholic and said that to the doctor. He then sent someone to find a priest.

After several more minutes of feverish activity all around me, the Doctor asked someone if they had found a priest yet. When he was told that none were available, he said with a sense of urgency to a young man who was there, “Call an outside parish then. Quick! At the rate her seizures are coming, we're not going to be able to keep her together much longer.”

More time p***ed, and then suddenly I heard someone yelling that there had been a major car accident somewhere, and that everyone in the emergency room was needed. Confusion grew again, someone—I think the young nurse—asked about me, and then the voice of the doctor broke through.

“It doesn't matter about her,” he said matter-of-factly. “She's flat. Get her out of the way.”

And somehow, while he was speaking, I was above my body so that I could see the back of his head, and I knew that he had his back turned toward where I lay. “You shouldn't say that,” a young nurse who was standing right by my head cautioned the doctor. “She might hear you.” “Who?” he responded almost mockingly. “Her? She's out of it. She's gone. She can't hear anything.”

Libby
10-20-2012, 10:17 PM
Elane's story continues............


A SINCERE PRAYER

Somehow I was able to sense the anxiety this young nurse was feeling for me, an anxiety which continued to build as she watched my condition deteriorate. I was also aware of my deteriorating condition, though it did not bother me because I was no longer feeling any pain. In fact I felt kind of detached, and instead of worrying or suffering I found myself simply wondering what was going to happen next.

A few moments later she said something else, and the doctor grew almost angry. “Look,” he told her gruffly, “if you can't handle this, we'll send for someone who can.”

The nurse ***ured him that she wanted to stay, and then silently, without audible words, she began to pray. With my expanded spiritual senses I could actually hear her prayers and feel her concern.

The next that I was aware, the gurney I was on had been pushed to another area. I don't remember it happening; I was just aware that I had been moved. Though I couldn't see it then, moments later I realized that there were curtains to one side of me, and I was close to a wall, though in one direction I could see past the curtains and so understood that I was away from the bustle of the emergency room.

I still felt nothing; no pain, not even any real concern. Everything that was happening seemed like a dream, sort of like it was all happening to someone else and that it didn't affect me very much at all. My being was in soft darkness, and I was very content.

Someone then gave orders to prep my body for the morgue, and I wondered that they should think I was dead when I felt so very much alive. Yet not only was I unable to communicate, but neither did I feel any anxiety, even about this. Meanwhile the young nurse was beside me, still praying while she worked at taping my stud earrings and rings in place on my body so they wouldn't get lost in the morgue. And I could still feel the power of her prayers.

Libby
10-20-2012, 10:20 PM
Continued....................The Power of Prayer...........


THE PRIEST ARRIVES

Moments later I heard a door open and footsteps sounded across the tile floor. With a sigh of relief the little nurse exclaimed, “Oh, thank God, Father! I'm so glad you're here!”

I could feel the priest standing near me. “What do we have here?” he asked. I listened as the nurse told him that I had come in DOA— Dead On Arrival—and had gone through over eleven seizures that she knew of.

The priest came close to my ear on my right side and asked, “Can you hear me? Move something so I know you can hear me.” After a pause he said softly, “Hmmmm.” And then he continued, “You're a very sick little girl, and the doctors have done all that they can. But I'm going to pray and ask now for God's help.” He started to pray, and I didn't know what “Last Rights” were supposed to sound like, but I felt a true sincerity to his prayer. Suddenly I was aware of a power in his praying, and I felt an incredible rush of energy, a strong spiritual power that went from my head to my toes in warm, surging waves. It was like a Ka-whoom, Ka-whoom, Ka-whoom! That was followed almost immediately by a heavy weight on my chest, after which a terrible pressure or pain shot like a flash of lightning through my upper body and into my head, almost as though it were trying to burst free.

Libby
10-21-2012, 02:28 AM
continued...................................


MY SPIRIT POPS FREE OF MY BODY

In the midst of this split second of pain there came within my being a soft pop—like a bubble breaking. Then my spirit was free of my body, and I felt myself lifting.

Abruptly aware that I could see clearly again I rose upward, p***ing within about ten inches of the side of the priest's face. I saw that he had dark hair and dark-rimmed gl***es, as well as a voice that I knew I would never forget. I next saw the little nurse who had been praying for me, and I knew that she was from the third floor, and had never seen anyone die before. I don't know how I knew that, but I did. I also knew a “part of me” was being left on the gurney, but at that moment I felt a great indifference toward it. Instead I found myself luxuriating in my new freedom.

In fact, I felt more alive than I could ever remember feeling. I now had expanded senses, and I could see things so very clearly! I found myself in a dense, foggy area with light like might be seen near dusk or dawn. I had no fear, and I was filled with the knowledge that I wasn't alone.

Libby
10-21-2012, 01:45 PM
Elane's death experience continues.....


/ SEE A LIGHT

I turned to my left to look about myself, and then upon turning to my right I saw a bright light in the distance, slightly above the horizon. It was like a large star or close planet might appear, and a halo of light surrounded it. My spirit lifted and somehow rose toward this beacon which was emanating rays through its halos, though I had no idea of how I was moving. At the same time the fog faded away to darkness and my vision became even more clear.

MISERABLE EARTH-BOUND SPIRITS

Something moved in my downward left peripheral vision and caught my eye. As I looked down I saw a large group of people—probably a hundred or more—and all of them had their heads down. They weren't far away from me, not more than thirty or forty feet. I knew that they were spirit beings like myself, though there was such darkness about them that they felt to me wicked or unclean. I knew that they had once lived in mortality just as I had, and I remember thinking of them as earthbound, not because they had to be earthbound so much as because they chose to be. From them I felt a terrible amount of confusion and anger, which I didn't understand, along with a sense of being lost in their own misery—uncertain of which way to go. I wanted to make them understand that all they had to do was look up—up there was the light, and they could go to it with me. But when I tried to tell them, they ignored me completely. It was as if I didn't even exist.

Even more amazing to me was that neither did the light exist to them. Either they could not, or would not, see it.

Libby
10-21-2012, 01:47 PM
continued.............


/ Go TOWARD THE LIGHT

Looking upward again, I realized that the light was traveling toward me just as I was moving toward it, and it was moving at a great speed. As we came closer together, I saw rays of light filter out through the halos, and I realized that there was a personality to this light. I also felt an immense amount of love from it, a different kind of love than I had ever felt before, love that was completely overwhelming. And wonder of all wonders, I knew that I was being welcomed to come closer.

Pa Pa
10-21-2012, 05:05 PM
A neurophysicist has been in the news, recently, recounting a near-death-experience he had, while in a coma (his brain was completely flat-lined).

This man had a vague belief that there may be some kind of creator God, but he did not believe in a "personal God"...a God who loved or cared about individuals.

So, he was in a coma, in a very serious, near death situation, with no brain waves showing, and he had this beautiful experience with God (a God of unconditional love), which totally changed his life.

This is one of thousands of NDE's, all somewhat different.

I read a book by a woman who had no belief in God, who became LDS, after an NDE, because of some things she experienced.


http://www.amazon.com/Stand-All-Amazed-Elane-Durham/dp/1890558273

Very interesting book.

This is because God does care and love "all"...great story.

Libby
10-21-2012, 06:38 PM
Glad you are enjoying her story, Papa. I'm not going to copy the whole book (in case anyone wondered! :)) but I did want to present her actual death experience. There was quite a lot to it (more to come!).

Also, in reading my OP again, I misrepresented Elane's views on God. She did have a rather vague belief in God, but had never embraced any particular religion. It was still many years, after her NDE, before she found the LDS Church (or, I should say, the Church found her). My understanding of her current views is, that even the LDS Church is not "perfect", but there were some things from her NDE that stood out as being embraced by this church. So, I would say she is, probably, a bit of an unorthodox Latter-day Saint.

Libby
10-21-2012, 06:58 PM
Elane's story continued.......(the beginning of this paragraph is in reference to when Elane first spoke with LDS missionaries, and she told them her story...


WITHIN THE GLORY OF HIS LOVE

“You died?” Elder Bell gasped when I finally blurted it out.

“You mean you really died?”

I nodded. “That's right.”

“Were you dead for very long?”

“Probably not too long. About an hour, altogether.”
“Well...what happened?” Elder Peck questioned. “Did you see anything?”

I smiled. “Actually, I saw quite a bit. And that's when all of my beliefs changed. Unfortunately, I haven't found a church here on earth that teaches these things that I learned. If I ever do, I'll consider being a part of that church.”

“What did you see?” I was asked again. “If you can tell us, we'd like to hear it.”

Now my mind was really spinning. How much do I dare say, I thought? After all, these are young boys, and they've probably never heard such a story. Thinking back on how I had spoken of my experience to others over the years, I decided that a thumbnail sketch was the best way to go. After all, no one had ever heard all of my experience, and I wasn't sure these young men wouldn't write me off as a candidate for the funny farm if I told them even a tiny amount.

“Oh, my,” I breathed. “Well, if I told you that there's more than one heaven, would you believe me?”

They shot looks at each other as I continued. “As a matter-of-fact, there are three. And the angels there don't have wings.” Now they were nudging each other.

“There is music that I can't even begin to describe, and neither can I tell where it all comes from. And there's so much love there that it's overwhelming. That's what Christ is all about—love and understanding.”

As I explained other parts of my experience to them they continued to nudge each other, and their smiles were growing constantly more wide. One then reached into his bag and brought out a book. As he turned to what he wanted, the other missionary breathed, “Man, she's talking scriptures. I've never heard anything like this!”

Finding the place he was looking for in his little book, he turned the page around to where I could see it—and there were three heavens pictured on that page! And then I was the one who was sitting there surprised. I was told by the elder that their church also believed that angels didn't have wings.

I had mentioned to them that the Bible had been explained to me as a “History of the People” which held the words of Christ, and I had been told that there was more history on the earth and even more yet to be found. With more smiles they told me that this was what the Book of Mormon was all about—a history of the ancient settlers of the Americas, and of Christ's time spent among them. The Book of Mormon, they continued, told of the people's struggles as well as their gains, particularly concerning spiritual issues.

Well, I had given these young fellows much more than I had intended, and to my surprise had found understanding ears. Now I really wanted to know about their church, and so we set a time for the next day when they could come again to share.

After they left I sat thinking, “Can this be real? Is there really a church that teaches some of what I saw in my own death vision?”

I couldn't get over the looks I had seen in their eyes when I spoke to them. They had been moved by what I'd had to say. But more than that, more than anything either of them had said, was the fact that every time one of them had opened his mouth to say something about the gospel, no matter what it was, / could feel the Spirit! I could feel again that overwhelming sense of peace I had known the entire time I had been in the presence of the Lord's holy angel!

Now, with the two young missionaries gone, I sat back and closed my eyes, and for the first time in years I allowed myself to totally relive what I still thought of, even after fifteen years, as my incredible death vision.

dberrie2000
10-22-2012, 06:55 AM
Elane's death experience continues.....

Wow--good stuff, Libby. I see hope in your posts.

Libby
10-22-2012, 11:02 AM
Can you imagine being those missionaries?! I'll bet they were falling off their chairs! :)

Libby
10-22-2012, 11:32 AM
Elane's death vision continued.....................

/ Go TO THE LIGHT

As I got closer to the light I heard a voice—but again as in the beautiful meadow, not with my ears alone. It was as if everything that I was, every particle of my being, was absorbing what I heard. I not only heard the voice, but I felt it as He spoke to me, saying, “Through me you have Eternal Life.”

IN THE FORM OF A MAN

In awe I drew nearer, almost riding upon the rays that spread out from the halos that surrounded this light, until I saw in the light's core the outline of a man—a glorious being apparently made of light that seemed more golden in color than the radiance that shown all about him. And though I thought of Him as light, He certainly had all the physical aspects and substance of a man. I saw His hands, His arms, His body, His neck, His head—I even noted His facial characteristics, though I am at a loss to describe them now. Yet with all He was a being of power and glorious light so incredible that I could not really comprehend Him.

But I do remember His eyes! They were so clear and bright—yet there was color to them—a beautiful blue color outlined in deeper blue that made me think of the color of the distant ocean on a clear day. But it wasn't so much the color of His eyes as it was the power in them, that awed me. Those fathomless eyes penetrated my very soul. They knew me beyond anything I was ever capable of knowing about myself—and to my absolute and dumbfounded amazement, still He loved me. In fact, the love I had felt from the moment of seeing the light had grown steadily stronger, and now it somehow reached out and literally began to encircle me and draw me closer.

MEMORIES OF AN EARLIER LIFE

I knew then that I had been with Him before, for I absolutely recognized Him. I knew that I had dwelt, with my same exact iden***y, in an eternal life or existence prior to my mortal life, and in that existence I had come to know this glorious being thoroughly and even intimately. That is both why and how I knew that the voice I had heard and felt, as well as the being I was now gazing upon, was my eternal Creator, the Lord Jesus Christ.

James Banta
10-22-2012, 11:35 AM
Elane's death vision continued.....................

/ Go TO THE LIGHT

As I got closer to the light I heard a voice—but again as in the beautiful meadow, not with my ears alone. It was as if everything that I was, every particle of my being, was absorbing what I heard. I not only heard the voice, but I felt it as He spoke to me, saying, “Through me you have Eternal Life.”

IN THE FORM OF A MAN

In awe I drew nearer, almost riding upon the rays that spread out from the halos that surrounded this light, until I saw in the light's core the outline of a man—a glorious being apparently made of light that seemed more golden in color than the radiance that shown all about him. And though I thought of Him as light, He certainly had all the physical aspects and substance of a man. I saw His hands, His arms, His body, His neck, His head—I even noted His facial characteristics, though I am at a loss to describe them now. Yet with all He was a being of power and glorious light so incredible that I could not really comprehend Him.

But I do remember His eyes! They were so clear and bright—yet there was color to them—a beautiful blue color outlined in deeper blue that made me think of the color of the distant ocean on a clear day. But it wasn't so much the color of His eyes as it was the power in them, that awed me. Those fathomless eyes penetrated my very soul. They knew me beyond anything I was ever capable of knowing about myself—and to my absolute and dumbfounded amazement, still He loved me. In fact, the love I had felt from the moment of seeing the light had grown steadily stronger, and now it somehow reached out and literally began to encircle me and draw me closer.

MEMORIES OF AN EARLIER LIFE

I knew then that I had been with Him before, for I absolutely recognized Him. I knew that I had dwelt, with my same exact iden***y, in an eternal life or existence prior to my mortal life, and in that existence I had come to know this glorious being thoroughly and even intimately. That is both why and how I knew that the voice I had heard and felt, as well as the being I was now gazing upon, was my eternal Creator, the Lord Jesus Christ.

This is spiritualism not mormonism and NOT Christianity.. Just what can this do to address the claims of mormonism you have been so intent on proving? In fact by saying this person saw Jesus you are denying mormonism because this person was never baptized by mormon authority and therefore couldn't go to where He is.. IHS jim

Libby
10-22-2012, 11:37 AM
Actually, this is someone's near death experience...someone who had no previous knowledge of Mormonism.

James Banta
10-22-2012, 11:40 AM
Actually, this is someone's near death experience...someone who had no previous knowledge of Mormonism.

Yes and she went where only Baptized mormons are suppose to be able to go.. that is kind of anti mormon of you to bring up now isn't? IHS jim

Libby
10-22-2012, 11:44 AM
Yes and she went where only Baptized mormons are suppose to be able to go.. that is kind of anti mormon of you to bring up now isn't? IHS jim

Actually, no she didn't. She was given knowledge of 'three heavens', but did not actually "go" to any of them.

James Banta
10-22-2012, 03:14 PM
Actually, no she didn't. She was given knowledge of 'three heavens', but did not actually "go" to any of them.

Your post didn't say a word about three kingdoms. It didn't say she wasn't with Jesus (Who according to the Bible has taking His place at the right hand of the Father). You did say that she remembered former lives (Reincarnation). That is a part of mormonism now isn't it? NOT!! I don't understand what you saw her saying but it wasn't the same thing you communicated to me.. Strange that you thought she was seeing heaven when you started this thread.. After all you even called the thread "heaven".. I guess you didn't understand that you were saying, so was she in heaven or not? Stop trying to make it up as you go along and just say that you haven't any idea what you are talking about. IHS jim

Pa Pa
10-22-2012, 03:15 PM
both are fake in my book...

What about life on other planets?

Pa Pa
10-22-2012, 03:16 PM
Your post didn't say a word about three kingdoms. It didn't say she wasn't with Jesus (Who according to the Bible has taking His place at the right hand of the Father). You did say that she remembered former lives (Reincarnation). That is a part of mormonism now isn't it? NOT!! I don't understand what you saw her saying but it wasn't the same thing you communicated to me.. IHS jim

Why would the guy see or know all this?

James Banta
10-22-2012, 03:23 PM
Why would the guy see or know all this?

Why would she talk about reincarnation? Seems to be Just as Biblical as 3 heavens.. Is mormonism going to add reincarnation to the 72 Section of the D&C? may as well add it then you would have one more reason to accept the teachings of men and not just rely on Smith's lies.. IHS jim

Pa Pa
10-22-2012, 04:19 PM
Why would she talk about reincarnation? Seems to be Just as Biblical as 3 heavens.. Is mormonism going to add reincarnation to the 72 Section of the D&C? may as well add it then you would have one more reason to accept the teachings of men and not just rely on Smith's lies.. IHS jim

So would your idea of a trip to heaven look like...clouds, God not caring what kind of man you have been. What would a Spirit who fills the universe look like? Any angels with bird wings?

Libby
10-22-2012, 05:00 PM
Your post didn't say a word about three kingdoms. It didn't say she wasn't with Jesus (Who according to the Bible has taking His place at the right hand of the Father). You did say that she remembered former lives (Reincarnation). That is a part of mormonism now isn't it? NOT!! I don't understand what you saw her saying but it wasn't the same thing you communicated to me.. Strange that you thought she was seeing heaven when you started this thread.. After all you even called the thread "heaven".. I guess you didn't understand that you were saying, so was she in heaven or not? Stop trying to make it up as you go along and just say that you haven't any idea what you are talking about. IHS jim

You are very confused, Jim. There was nothing about reincarnation in her book. She remembered a relationship with Jesus Christ in a "premortal life" (same as LDS believe). The "heavens" were pointed out, but she did not personally go there.

Nothing on this thread is "made up". This is from a book about Elane Durham's "death experience". You might want to go back and actually read it. That should clear up some of your confusion.

Pa Pa
10-22-2012, 06:22 PM
You are very confused, Jim. There was nothing about reincarnation in her book. She remembered a relationship with Jesus Christ in a "premortal life" (same as LDS believe). The "heavens" were pointed out, but she did not personally go there.

Nothing on this thread is "made up". This is from a book about Elane Durham's "death experience". You might want to go back and actually read it. That should clear up some of your confusion.

If it does not fit his view...he can't see or believe.

Libby
10-23-2012, 12:10 AM
Well, I don't think James really wants to understand any of this...which is fine. We all have our agency.

Will continue Elane's death experience, in just a minute.

Libby
10-23-2012, 12:17 AM
continued..................


MY LORD JESUS CHRIST

But that sure and certain knowledge of who Christ was, completely humbled me. I had always thought of myself as unworthy of any sort of communication with God, and yet here I was, being drawn into His presence. Even while it was happening I found myself struggling to believe, to comprehend that it was happening to me. I was actually in the presence of my Savior and my Redeemer, Jesus Christ! A LIFE' S REVIEW “What have you done for your fellow man?” He asked me then with His wordless communication, and instantly my entire life was before my eyes. It wasn't like I was seeing a movie, with scenes laid out in sequence. Instead it was somehow all at once, so that many different aspects of my life were laid out for me to see and contemplate all in the same instant. And in that same instant I chose, because of all the trauma and abuse I had experienced, to focus on every incident for which I felt guilt and shame. These, I was certain, would cause Him to release me and turn away

A LIFE' S REVIEW

“What have you done for your fellow man?” He asked me then with His wordless communication, and instantly my entire life was before my eyes. It wasn't like I was seeing a movie, with scenes laid out in sequence. Instead it was somehow all at once, so that many different aspects of my life were laid out for me to see and contemplate all in the same instant. And in that same instant I chose, because of all the trauma and abuse I had experienced, to focus on every incident for which I felt guilt and shame. These, I was certain, would cause Him to release me and turn away from me. But no, that didn't happen. Instead he told me that every single aspect of my guilt and shame had either been forgiven by Him already because of my repentance, or had come about because of how I had been raised or treated, and had not, therefore, been of my choice. As I struggled to understand this He reminded me that I had never turned my back on God, but had daily sought Him, begging for forgiveness for the sins I had committed, and pleading for His presence in my life. Now, I realized abruptly, those prayers and pleadings were being answered.

And then, wonder of all wonders, and in direct confirmation of His words, Christ raised his hand and somehow brought me instantly and completely into the light of His glory.

James Banta
10-23-2012, 09:28 AM
If it does not fit his view...he can't see or believe.

You won't like it... This person would get all this from the one being that is working to destroy the works of God.. He always leaves his "hoof prints" wherever he goes. I have seem teaching similar to mormonism is many of the nonchristian cults.. Those such as Urantia and Eckankar that have invented a whole other way to God than through Jesus.. What is being put forward here in nothing new, it is just being promoted through another messenger the source is the same. It is the father of lies.. IHS jim

James Banta
10-23-2012, 09:48 AM
You are very confused, Jim. There was nothing about reincarnation in her book. She remembered a relationship with Jesus Christ in a "premortal life" (same as LDS believe). The "heavens" were pointed out, but she did not personally go there.

Nothing on this thread is "made up". This is from a book about Elane Durham's "death experience". You might want to go back and actually read it. That should clear up some of your confusion.

You said that she had loved a life before this one.. I hear that saying we all lived such a life.. That is clearly reincarnation. Look at your post dated 10-18-2012, 04:10 PM. You are the one that brought up reincarnation. The Bible teaches that God created the spirits of man within him (Zech 12:1).. We started here and in faith by the grace of God we will continue with Him eternally.. Why is it that you are so willing to abandon the word of God and cling to new revelation that teaches against what we have already received? Now you are teaching this "Other" gospel.. Dear one don't you know the danger is doing that? Look at Gal 1:8-9.. It is so important the Holy Spirit gave it twice to Paul in the same breath.. And because I condemn this other gospel you again attack my mental health calling me confused because I challenge such lies as you have brought here.. IHS jim

dberrie2000
10-23-2012, 10:40 AM
Originally Posted by Libby View Post--You are very confused, Jim. There was nothing about reincarnation in her book. She remembered a relationship with Jesus Christ in a "premortal life" (same as LDS believe). The "heavens" were pointed out, but she did not personally go there.

Nothing on this thread is "made up". This is from a book about Elane Durham's "death experience". You might want to go back and actually read it. That should clear up some of your confusion.



You said that she had loved a life before this one.. I hear that saying we all lived such a life.. That is clearly reincarnation. Look at your post dated 10-18-2012, 04:10 PM. You are the one that brought up reincarnation. The Bible teaches that God created the spirits of man within him (Zech 12:1).. We started here and in faith by the grace of God we will continue with Him eternally.. Why is it that you are so willing to abandon the word of God and cling to new revelation that teaches against what we have already received? Now you are teaching this "Other" gospel.. Dear one don't you know the danger is doing that? Look at Gal 1:8-9.. It is so important the Holy Spirit gave it twice to Paul in the same breath.. And because I condemn this other gospel you again attack my mental health calling me confused because I challenge such lies as you have brought here.. IHS jim

I don't necessarily see the relationship between being confused and mental health. Libby did not mention your mental health--only the point that you were confused about the facts. It could happen to any of us--even those with bright minds.

James Banta
10-23-2012, 01:23 PM
I don't necessarily see the relationship between being confused and mental health. Libby did not mention your mental health--only the point that you were confused about the facts. It could happen to any of us--even those with bright minds.

Libby has attacked my mental health before. As always she attacks my ability to understand. before it was a claim that I had Alzheimer's (of course I should be able to remember that should I Libby). Why would not understanding her this time not be the same old charge against my mental health? I don't ask you to go through all the posts to see that, but you have fallen well behind in seeing her desire to paint me as a fool. This time too her comments were directly pointed at me personally not at just a misunderstanding.. Maybe you should stay out of conversations you know nothing about.. IHS jim

dberrie2000
10-23-2012, 02:00 PM
Libby has attacked my mental health before. As always she attacks my ability to understand.

I do also--but I don't believe that necessarily has anything to do with your mental health. All I know is--you don't seem to understand well--but I find that applicable to many of the faith alone.

They avoid the reality of the scriptures. Their theologies are supported by the cover and cancel plots they rehe**** over and over.

James Banta
10-23-2012, 02:57 PM
I do also--but I don't believe that necessarily has anything to do with your mental health. All I know is--you don't seem to understand well--but I find that applicable to many of the faith alone.

They avoid the reality of the scriptures. Their theologies are supported by the cover and cancel plots they rehe**** over and over.

Just as I see you.. You can't seem to understand that If I have the righteousness of Jesus that I am 100% obedient to the Father through that imputed righteousness.. I am starting to wonder if English is your first language.. I have shown you the authority of the scripture.. you don't bother to question it. All you do is run back to the same verses that speak of obedience.. You haven't even tried to tell me that you are obedient yet yourself. If you are not then you will die in your sin.. Dying in your sin means the Lake of Fire.. Tell me how obedience can give someone God's grace when they (YOU) are not obedient.. IHS jim

Libby
10-23-2012, 07:35 PM
Libby has attacked my mental health before. As always she attacks my ability to understand. before it was a claim that I had Alzheimer's (of course I should be able to remember that should I Libby). Why would not understanding her this time not be the same old charge against my mental health? I don't ask you to go through all the posts to see that, but you have fallen well behind in seeing her desire to paint me as a fool. This time too her comments were directly pointed at me personally not at just a misunderstanding.. Maybe you should stay out of conversations you know nothing about.. IHS jim

More false accusations, Jim. sigh

I have never accused you of having Alzheimers. I "one time" asked if you might not be suffering from cognitive dysfunction, due to your heart disease. You admitted that is a possibility, although, you did not think it was occurring just yet. I pretty much dropped it, at that. Your posts are, sometimes, very difficult to understand...and they often have many typos. I insinuated nothing about your "character", as you have mine, many, many times. You, also, constantly accuse people of not being able to understand, because they are not regenerated or whatever. You whine and complain about others insulting you MUCH MORE than anyone else on this board, and yet you are the number one name caller and insulter of others, on this board.

As for reincarnation, I mentioned it once, in the beginning of this thread, in reference to a completely different story (NOT Elane's story). If you had been following along, in order, and with some thoughtfulness, you could have (probably) figured that out for yourself. But, you are so anxious to put me down or find fault, that you trip over yourself to do it (and usually trip yourself up, as well).

So, now, I will continue with Elane's story. You don't have to read it, if you don't like it...that's fine. But, if you're going to make comments, please try and make them on something that pertains to what was actually posted. Thank you.

Libby
10-23-2012, 07:42 PM
Elane's story continued...............


THE LOVE OF THE LORD JESUS CHRIST

There are no words to adequately describe this, but somehow I realized that I had actually become a part of Christ's light. With incredible tenderness He made me part of His eternal presence, His eternal peace, and I felt a perfect joy such as I've never known, either before or since. I knew that my Lord knew me beyond anything I could ever imagine, and yet despite what He knew of me He loved me infinitely more than I could comprehend. The love I felt from Christ was the most powerful feeling I had ever experienced. It was absolutely overwhelming, and I knew if I had been in my physical body it would have left me powerless, and perhaps might even have destroyed me. There was heat ***ociated with it, too, a wonderful burning that swept through me again and again, like waves of comforting fire, cleansing me and purifying me so that I felt at peace being with Christ.

Libby
10-23-2012, 07:45 PM
continued..........


FORGIVING MYSELF

Being encircled within His love I was able, for the first time in my life, to completely forgive myself. I had to, for I could not in any way oppose how Christ felt about me. Unconditionally I was loved, completely had I been forgiven, and perfectly was I understood. And because His thoughts and understanding and love had somehow become my own, I was able to feel the same way about myself as He did. In my “review” I was shown all the times when I had acted indifferently or even cruelly toward my younger brother—the times I had let him take the blame for my childhood mischief, or the times I had hurt him in some other way. For instance, I remembered once when I had thrown a small block of wood off a stair railing and hit him, and had felt quite indifferent to his pain. Now I found myself experiencing his pain, his feelings of intimidation and all the insecurities he felt in having me as an older sister, and suddenly I understood him better, probably, than he had ever understood himself.

Pa Pa
10-23-2012, 07:46 PM
You won't like it... This person would get all this from the one being that is working to destroy the works of God.. He always leaves his "hoof prints" wherever he goes. I have seem teaching similar to mormonism is many of the nonchristian cults.. Those such as Urantia and Eckankar that have invented a whole other way to God than through Jesus.. What is being put forward here in nothing new, it is just being promoted through another messenger the source is the same. It is the father of lies.. IHS jim

I don't like you...this much is for sure. You know well the father of lies.

Libby
10-23-2012, 07:47 PM
continued...............


THE LORD'S FORGIVENESS

I also knew that it was because of my later efforts to love and nurture and protect him, as well as my other siblings when our family was suffering and finally disintegrating—and my constant prayers of repentance, that I now merited the Lord's complete forgiveness. For I was completely forgiven, and I knew it! In that context I was made aware that Christ knew and understood every single aspect of the incestuous abuse perpetrated upon me by my father. Yet I not only felt my Redeemer's complete love and acceptance of me in spite of this, for I could finally see absolutely that it had not been my fault—but I was also allowed to feel His unconditional love for my father, which gave me great peace.

Pa Pa
10-23-2012, 08:07 PM
continued...............

All good parents forgive...and God is a perfect parent.

Billyray
10-23-2012, 08:08 PM
All good parents forgive...and God I'd a perfect parent.

So do you think God will forgive mormons who worship false gods especially those who know better such as yourself?

Pa Pa
10-23-2012, 08:12 PM
So do you think God will forgive mormons who worship false gods especially those who know better such as yourself?

Not a possibility...we know the truth.

Libby
10-23-2012, 08:20 PM
So do you think God will forgive mormons who worship false gods especially those who know better such as yourself?

From reading Elane's story, God can forgive anything, especially, if it was done in ignorance or if the person shows regret (repentance).

Why would a loving God hold someone responsible for doing something they didn't know was wrong, Billy? Especially, when they are trying their best to do what they believe is RIGHT...?

Billyray
10-23-2012, 08:43 PM
From reading Elane's story. . .

This is the trouble with you Libby you seem to latch onto extra Biblical teachings and then reject sections of the Bible. That is why you have gotten so far off course.

Billyray
10-23-2012, 08:47 PM
Why would a loving God hold someone responsible for doing something they didn't know was wrong, Billy?

Because they are sinners. Isn't it just to hold sinners responsible for what they have done?

If a person committed a crime wouldn't it be just to hold that person responsible for the crime that he committed?

Libby
10-23-2012, 11:12 PM
Because they are sinners. Isn't it just to hold sinners responsible for what they have done?

If a person committed a crime wouldn't it be just to hold that person responsible for the crime that he committed?

Not if that person doesn't know any better, no. Even our human laws take mental condition and age into consideration. If someone doesn't have the capacity to understand what they are doing is wrong, they are treated very differently from someone who does have that capacity, and they are not held accountable for their actions. Most of the time they are given the help that they need (psychiatric help).

Why would God be any less comp***ionate? As a matter of fact, God is considerably MORE comp***ionate, than man!

Libby
10-23-2012, 11:17 PM
This is the trouble with you Libby you seem to latch onto extra Biblical teachings and then reject sections of the Bible. That is why you have gotten so far off course.

No, I don't "latch onto" anything. That is what you do. I look at everything and consider all of the possibilities. God is not just in the book that you cling to, Billy. God is everywhere! God is showing us things (wonderful things!) all the time! You just have to open your eyes and your mind!

Billyray
10-23-2012, 11:24 PM
Not if that person doesn't know any better, no. Even our human laws take mental condition and age into consideration.

You know better. DB knows better. PaPa knows better.

Billyray
10-23-2012, 11:25 PM
God is not just in the book that you cling to, Billy.

God's work is in the Bible and yet you disregard large chunks of it because you don't like what God has to say.

Libby
10-23-2012, 11:45 PM
You know better. DB knows better. PaPa knows better.

Do you honestly believe that we think your religious beliefs are more correct, but we are purposefully dismissing them, regardless? Why in the world would we do that?

If you do believe that, you couldn't be more wrong.

Libby
10-23-2012, 11:47 PM
God's work is in the Bible and yet you disregard large chunks of it because you don't like what God has to say.

I disregard "some of it", because I don't believe it is from God.

That's what you don't seem to "get".

TheSword99
10-24-2012, 05:30 AM
I do also--but I don't believe that necessarily has anything to do with your mental health. All I know is--you don't seem to understand well--but I find that applicable to many of the faith alone.

They avoid the reality of the scriptures. Their theologies are supported by the cover and cancel plots they rehe**** over and over.


dberrie, the scriptures will not make sense to those who are not born again. You can keep spinning your wheels and riding the same merry-go-round trying to merit heaven through church rules, laws, ordinances and countless numbers of commandments.(none of this is even taught in the Holy Scriptures) But what you're actually doing is denying the grace that God offers to all men who will turn to Christ. James Banta finally got off that merry-go-round and has a love for the Lord that I don't see expressed on this forum anywhere. He is so thankful to Jesus for saving him. But the lds church deems him an apostate because he left that church, so he's made a target on here. If you truly care about doing the right thing, you would apologize to him.

BTW, you still haven't supplied any evidence on what was lost that the lds church restored. This is because God always has His faithful remnant and the Gospel of Jesus Christ has never been lost.

ActRaiser
10-24-2012, 06:01 AM
I disregard "some of it", because I don't believe it is from God.

That's what you don't seem to "get".

http://imageshack.us/a/img152/3922/355pt5.jpg

The real irony of this is you can believe all of the Bible and disagree with Jesus being THE way to Heaven and you'd still be going straight to Hell.

TheSword99
10-24-2012, 09:54 AM
Because it was ALSO an NDE and someone who had joined the LDS Church because of it. (this is the Mormonism board, right?) Plus, it's a book I had read, myself. I've actually read many books on NDE's. I find it a fascinating subject.

So, do you have an opinion about NDE's (the ones I posted, in particular) or are you just here to har***?


Hi Libby, I have read and heard about many NDE and more than few who were non believers became born again Christians.

I would like to ask you something. Do you believe that all roads lead to heaven?

Billyray
10-24-2012, 10:11 AM
The real irony of this is you can believe all of the Bible and disagree with Jesus being THE way to Heaven and you'd still be going straight to Hell.

Then you wouldn't "believe all of the Bible".

Billyray
10-24-2012, 10:19 AM
So do you think God will forgive mormons who worship false gods especially those who know better such as yourself?



Why would a loving God hold someone responsible for doing something they didn't know was wrong, Billy? Especially, when they are trying their best to do what they believe is RIGHT...?

Because they are sinners. Isn't it just to hold sinners responsible for what they have done?

If a person committed a crime wouldn't it be just to hold that person responsible for the crime that he committed?

Not if that person doesn't know any better,

You know better. DB knows better. PaPa knows better.

Do you honestly believe that we think your religious beliefs are more correct, but we are purposefully dismissing them, regardless? Why in the world would we do that?
.
Each one of us has a basic understanding of right and wrong and yet each of us still chooses wrong. Because of our sin we deserve punishment and it is fair to punish to who do wrong just like I said in a prior post. You know what is right and wrong and yet you persist in doing wrong. Is God unfair to punish you for this (***uming that you do not come to him in faith)?

Libby
10-24-2012, 10:39 AM
Hi Libby, I have read and heard about many NDE and more than few who were non believers became born again Christians.

Yes, it seems to touch those who have them very, very deeply.

I've only read a few stories, and all have been from Christians. It would be interesting to hear NDE stories from other cultures.

When I was around 14 years old, a man in our church (I grew up First Baptist) relayed a near death experience he had. His was very negative (or at least he perceived it that way). He was falling into a deep dark pit, with angels above him, singing. It was a terrifying experience. He did become a born again, after that, and went around to various churches telling of his experience...warning people, actually, that "hell" was a real place.

I don't know what kind of life this man had led or what his beliefs were, previously, but I am guessing he was not a very nice person and that he probably believed he "might" go to hell, long before he had that experience.

At any rate, it did seem to change his life for the better.


I would like to ask you something. Do you believe that all roads lead to heaven?

Ultimately, yes. That doesn't mean that every path we take is a "direct" route back to God. I think all of us wander (meander) quite a bit and have many, many experiences through, perhaps, millions of lifetimes....but we will all return to God, eventually.

Libby
10-24-2012, 10:54 AM
Each one of us has a basic understanding of right and wrong and yet each of us still chooses wrong. Because of our sin we deserve punishment and it is fair to punish to who do wrong just like I said in a prior post. You know what is right and wrong and yet you persist in doing wrong. Is God unfair to punish you for this (***uming that you do not come to him in faith)?

I asked you a direct question (which you did not answer). You were ***uming that I and Papa and DB had differing religious beliefs (different from yours), knowing full well that our beliefs are wrong and yours are right. You seem to believe we are headed for hell, mainly, because we don't "believe" as you do. I am asking you, why would we embrace beliefs that we don't really believe, rather than your beliefs that are, supposedly, more true?? That's just not happening. I believe what I believe, because I sincerely believe it's true (and have some experience to back it up). If I am wrong, I know that a loving God will be gracious and kind and gently redirect....not punitive and unforgiving.

Yes, we all do things that are wrong, sometimes knowingly. But, I don't think anyone who has a full awareness of a wrong behavior, will continue in that behavior...mostly because bad behavior is self destructive. Most of us do not fully realize how bad behavior affects our lives and the lives of others. This is something we, often, have to learn through experience.

James Banta
10-24-2012, 10:55 AM
Yes, it seems to touch those who have them very, very deeply.

I've only read a few stories, and all have been from Christians. It would be interesting to hear NDE stories from other cultures.

When I was around 14 years old, a man in our church (I grew up First Baptist) relayed a near death experience he had. His was very negative (or at least he perceived it that way). He was falling into a deep dark pit, with angels above him, singing. It was a terrifying experience. He did become a born again, after that, and went around to various churches telling of his experience...warning people, actually, that "hell" was a real place.

I don't know what kind of life this man had led or what his beliefs were, previously, but I am guessing he was not a very nice person and that he probably believed he "might" go to hell, long before he had that experience.

At any rate, it did seem to change his life for the better.



Ultimately, yes. That doesn't mean that every path we take is a "direct" route back to God. I think all of us wander (meander) quite a bit and have many, many experiences through, perhaps, millions of lifetimes....but we will all return to God, eventually.

There is no such thing as a path back to God.. There is a Way to God and that way is Jesus.. Anything other than He is a path to destruction. Unless you again put yourself above the Biblical record where Jesus tells us that there are only two paths; the wide road and the narrow path.. You have lost your way Libby.. It's time to put away all this eastern thinking and ways of men and come home to Jesus.. IHS jim

James Banta
10-24-2012, 10:57 AM
So would your idea of a trip to heaven look like...clouds, God not caring what kind of man you have been. What would a Spirit who fills the universe look like? Any angels with bird wings?

Answered in one word... JESUS.. IHS jim

Libby
10-24-2012, 11:00 AM
But, I think we are talking about two different things, here (directed at Billy)..

You claim behavior doesn't "save" us. It is our "beliefs", according to you, that save us. So, let's focus on belief...and whether or not people "intentionally" believe things that are wrong.

I don't believe most people hold "wrong beliefs", intentionally....and I really don't think you believe that, either, because you believe people cannot come to God, unless he first regenerates them. How, then, could you or God hold them responsible for their beliefs, if that is really true?

That is one of the big holes in the Calvinistic system of belief, IMHO.

James Banta
10-24-2012, 11:01 AM
You are very confused, Jim. There was nothing about reincarnation in her book. She remembered a relationship with Jesus Christ in a "premortal life" (same as LDS believe). The "heavens" were pointed out, but she did not personally go there.

Nothing on this thread is "made up". This is from a book about Elane Durham's "death experience". You might want to go back and actually read it. That should clear up some of your confusion.


Then the confusion is yours.. You were the one that brought the subject up,. not me.. If something was made up you made it up.. I was not commenting to her account.. What I read I found unbiblical. What you said in the conversation I find to have an eastern teaching, totally nonchristian.. IHS jim

Libby
10-24-2012, 11:11 AM
Then the confusion is yours.. You were the one that brought the subject up,. not me.. If something was made up you made it up.. I was not commenting to her account.. What I read I found unbiblical. What you said in the conversation I find to have an eastern teaching, totally nonchristian.. IHS jim

No, the confusion is yours, because you ***umed the comments about reincarnation had to do with Elane's story. It didn't. Your ***umption was totally unrelated and out of context (probably because you haven't been reading everything on the thread)..

James Banta
10-24-2012, 11:15 AM
More false accusations, Jim. sigh

I have never accused you of having Alzheimers. I "one time" asked if you might not be suffering from cognitive dysfunction, due to your heart disease. You admitted that is a possibility, although, you did not think it was occurring just yet. I pretty much dropped it, at that. Your posts are, sometimes, very difficult to understand...and they often have many typos. I insinuated nothing about your "character", as you have mine, many, many times. You, also, constantly accuse people of not being able to understand, because they are not regenerated or whatever. You whine and complain about others insulting you MUCH MORE than anyone else on this board, and yet you are the number one name caller and insulter of others, on this board.

As for reincarnation, I mentioned it once, in the beginning of this thread, in reference to a completely different story (NOT Elane's story). If you had been following along, in order, and with some thoughtfulness, you could have (probably) figured that out for yourself. But, you are so anxious to put me down or find fault, that you trip over yourself to do it (and usually trip yourself up, as well).

So, now, I will continue with Elane's story. You don't have to read it, if you don't like it...that's fine. But, if you're going to make comments, please try and make them on something that pertains to what was actually posted. Thank you.

No, you used the word Alzheimer's I am sure of it.. I accused you of trying to practice medicine remotely and without a license.. I told you I have been completely examined by a compliant, licensed MD and found to be quite whole.. I doubt very much you have been so examined. While I don't pretend to be a great typist I am quite competent in my messages.

As for Elane's story God has made His order of creation very clear in His word.. He said he created the physical first then the spiritual. Not the other way around as this story would demand.

I will continue to post about what you have said as you lead into this this woman's dream.. You invoked your eastern doctrines bringing reincarnation into the conversation.. Go look if you don't believe me.. I already reported your remarks on the subject so you can find them without effort.. As I said before, if you don't remember doing that you should get a check up.. IHS jim

Libby
10-24-2012, 11:16 AM
I am approaching the limit to what I can copy from this book. My Kindle sets limits to how much can be copied from copyrighted works. So, I will only be able to copy a few more paragraphs from this book.

I'm going to try and pick out what I thought was most important.

Libby
10-24-2012, 11:18 AM
No, you used the word Alzheimer's I am sure of it..

You are wrong about this, Jim, and probably confusing me with someone else. I never said you had Alzheimer's. I know that you don't. My reference was to your heart disease only.

James Banta
10-24-2012, 11:20 AM
If it does not fit his view...he can't see or believe.

If it doesn't conform to what the bible says I don't believe it.. You on the other hand will believe anything that you feel is right.. What is it that you doubt about the order of creation when God has told us through the Prophet that God created our spirits within us? What us was there to create it in if it wasn't our natural bodies formed in our mothers's wombs.. This is a p***age I have used many times you should know it as well as I, it's in Zech 12:1... IHS jim

Libby
10-24-2012, 11:24 AM
Elane's story continued....(some highlights that likely led her into the LDS Church)


I SEE MY OWN LOVE AND LEARN OF ITS VALUE

“What have you done for your fellow man?” Christ asked again, and this time as I looked at my life I was able to see the love that I had felt for others despite their abuse and misuse. I could see my seemingly insignificant efforts to make peace. I could even see the prayers I had offered up in behalf of my mother, my father and my family. Those stood out like bright points of light against the darkness of my unhappy spaces in life.

How WE LOVE OTHERS Is MOST IMPORTANT

I knew then that the Savior wanted me to understand that His question had to do, not with worldly things, but with how much honest and sincere love I had given to others, especially when it was hard for me to love them. And I knew with all my soas His love enveloped and filled me, that He was both pleased and satisfied with my efforts. It was based upon that criteria—how well I had actually done—

James Banta
10-24-2012, 11:25 AM
Well, I don't think James really wants to understand any of this...which is fine. We all have our agency.

Will continue Elane's death experience, in just a minute.

By all means continue with this dream.. It of course hasn't anything to do with facts but is fiction. It is also proven that mormons like spiritually based fiction.. IHS jim

Libby
10-24-2012, 11:28 AM
Elane was not a Mormon or anything close to it. She did not join the LDS Church until 15 years after her NDE.

Libby
10-24-2012, 11:30 AM
continued..............


AN UNDERSTANDING OF ONENESS

When I was completely enmeshed and encircled in the love and understanding of my Lord Jesus Christ, I could feel God the Father and the Holy Spirit in that love, too. I had always thought of the three of them as “one,” being best expressed as the Holy Trinity. But now I knew with some surprise that they were separate en***ies. Yet just as I had become one with Christ, so were they one with each other, and the whole concept of “oneness” as taught by Jesus in the New Testament suddenly made perfect sense to me. While they had completely separate iden***ies, Jesus and God and the Holy Spirit were absolutely “one” in love. This love was unconditional, overwhelming, and denoted a complete unity of purpose between the three of them. And it was the same for me. Though I felt no sense of a body, neither did I experience any loss of iden***y. Though I was “one” with Him, I was just as much “me” as I had always been.

TheSword99
10-24-2012, 11:32 AM
Yes, it seems to touch those who have them very, very deeply.

I've only read a few stories, and all have been from Christians. It would be interesting to hear NDE stories from other cultures.

When I was around 14 years old, a man in our church (I grew up First Baptist) relayed a near death experience he had. His was very negative (or at least he perceived it that way). He was falling into a deep dark pit, with angels above him, singing. It was a terrifying experience. He did become a born again, after that, and went around to various churches telling of his experience...warning people, actually, that "hell" was a real place.

I don't know what kind of life this man had led or what his beliefs were, previously, but I am guessing he was not a very nice person and that he probably believed he "might" go to hell, long before he had that experience.

At any rate, it did seem to change his life for the better.



Ultimately, yes. That doesn't mean that every path we take is a "direct" route back to God. I think all of us wander (meander) quite a bit and have many, many experiences through, perhaps, millions of lifetimes....but we will all return to God, eventually.

I have also heard and read the story of Bill Wiese who has a book ***led: "23 Minutes in Hell." He had an out of body experience I guess it's called and God showed him the horrors of hell. His book is a warning to those who think hell is just a myth or not a literal place, that it is very real just as the Holy Bible indicates.

James Banta
10-24-2012, 11:33 AM
I don't necessarily see the relationship between being confused and mental health. Libby did not mention your mental health--only the point that you were confused about the facts. It could happen to any of us--even those with bright minds.

She tried to tie what she sees as confusion to a lack of blood supply to my brain. That is saying that I have a mental disease caused my physical problems. She has no right to make such a diagnosis. I tried to show her that just disagreeing on what the facts point to doesn't make her any more confused than I am. To say that it does is to put herself as the only judge of the facts. We should all bow down before her because she knows all things. Is that what you are saying here? I love to see you defend Libby.. That proves that you will accept anything as long as it soft peddles on the lies of mormonism.. IHS jim

James Banta
10-24-2012, 11:39 AM
You are wrong about this, Jim, and probably confusing me with someone else. I never said you had Alzheimer's. I know that you don't. My reference was to your heart disease only.

Then worry about a possible impending early death and leave my cognition out of your posts.. Remember I think you are even more confused than you believe I am.. After all every spiritual point I make here in based on Biblical reference.. A reference to Alzheimer's whether you remember making it or not is not in your area of expertise.. You are expert on extra biblical reference that counters the Biblical message.. IHS jim

Libby
10-24-2012, 11:42 AM
I have also heard and read the story of Bill Wiese who has a book ***led: "23 Minutes in Hell." He had an out of body experience I guess it's called and God showed him the horrors of hell. His book is a warning to those who think hell is just a myth or not a literal place, that it is very real just as the Holy Bible indicates.

I think I have heard of this book, although, I haven't read it. Sounds like a similar story to the one I was told in church.

I think most of these stories are, at least, somewhat related to what we already believe about heaven and hell. Have you ever heard of the concept that "thoughts are things"? Creating your own reality?

Libby
10-24-2012, 11:45 AM
Then worry about a possible impending early death and leave my cognition out of your posts.. Remember I think you are even more confused than you believe I am.. After all every spiritual point I make here in based on Biblical reference.. A reference to Alzheimer's whether you remember making it or not is not in your area of expertise.. You are expert on extra biblical reference that counters the Biblical message.. IHS jim

I have made ONE reference to your "mental health", James, and you are making a huge mountain out of a molehill. Get over it, already!

You demean my intellect and character in nearly every post you make to me, but do you see me following you around whining about it all the time?! Get.over.it.

TheSword99
10-24-2012, 11:48 AM
I think I have heard of this book, although, I haven't read it. Sounds like a similar story to the one I was told in church.

I think most of these stories are, at least, somewhat related to what we already believe about heaven and hell. Have you ever heard of the concept that "thoughts are things"? Creating your own reality?


So what are your views on hell? Do you believe it's a literal place? If so, who goes there?

As for creating one's own reality, can't say I am familiar with it.

ActRaiser
10-24-2012, 12:01 PM
Then you wouldn't "believe all of the Bible".

That's my point. ;)

Billyray
10-24-2012, 12:10 PM
You were ***uming that I and Papa and DB had differing religious beliefs (different from yours),

You do have different beliefs and you worship a false god.



You seem to believe we are headed for hell, mainly, because we don't "believe" as you do.

Anyone who worships false gods can't possibly expect to go to heaven.



I am asking you, why would we embrace beliefs that we don't really believe,

I believe that you do believe in false gods even though we have shown over and over again that the gods that mormons believe in are not the same as the God of the Bible.



I believe what I believe, because I sincerely believe it's true (and have some experience to back it up).

I believe you when you say that what you believe is true and that the LDS believe that what they believe is true despite going over and over with you (proxy LDS) and them that their beliefs are not consistent with what the Bible teaches.

James Banta
10-24-2012, 12:11 PM
I have made ONE reference to your "mental health", James, and you are making a huge mountain out of a molehill. Get over it, already!

You demean my intellect and character in nearly every post you make to me, but do you see me following you around whining about it all the time?! Get.over.it.

Even if you will not admit the truth here that reference to my mental Health is outside your ability to diagnosis. If I called you crazy you would be all over the forum telling people about a personal attack I made against you.. I have already asked you to stop talking of these things you know nothing about.. I will have the last word here Libby you have the first.. I think questioning my mental facilities is a serious attack and it will NOT STAND.. Apologize for making a judgment you have no right or training to make.. This is a huge mountain to me.. My wife worked in a nursing home I saw many that had have a Doctor confirm a lack of mental health.. Therefore I take this as a serious personal attack. It is no molehill.. That is often how a offender feels about the crime they commit.. They often believe that the state is making a mountain out of a molehill.. These "Molehills" often hurt other people deeply.. I will not get over this until you either leave this forum or apologize..

I do point out that you are often wrong in believing what your heart tells you is truth instead if relaying on God through His word.. I am sorry if it has been more than that.. I know that the personal attacks that many here have pointed at me I did get mean for a while.. I will continue pointing out when in your defense of mormonism you make unbiblical remarks but like you have said those ARE JUST YOUR OPINIONS.. I will still warn you that your opinions are out of step with God's word.. You are free to reject His message and go your own way.. I am sorry for the unchristian remarks I have made.. IHS jim

Billyray
10-24-2012, 12:17 PM
That's my point. ;)

Here is your post



The real irony of this is you can believe all of the Bible and disagree with Jesus being THE way to Heaven and you'd still be going straight to Hell.
But the Bible teaches that Jesus is the way thus if you don't believe that then you don't believe all of the Bible.

ActRaiser
10-24-2012, 12:19 PM
Here is your post

But the Bible teaches that Jesus is the way thus if you don't believe that then you don't believe all of the Bible.

I was kind of saying that there's a lot in the Bible that scripturally points out that Jesus is the Way to Heaven. So if you "Don't believe some of it" you don't believe "ALOT" of it.

Sure you might agree with the Ten Commandments or believe alot of it. But if you don't believe Jesus as the Way to get to Heaven, that's a whole chunk of it you don't believe in.



Originally Posted by Billyray
God's work is in the Bible and yet you disregard large chunks of it because you don't like what God has to say
See? :)

Billyray
10-24-2012, 12:33 PM
Sure you might agree with the Ten Commandments or believe alot of it. But if you don't believe Jesus as the Way to get to Heaven, that's a whole chunk of it you don't believe in.


I guess I misunderstood what you said because that is what Libby and LDS do in that they believe some of the Bible but ignore large chunks of it that is inconsistent with their beliefs. Is that what you meant? Anyway sorry if I misunderstood you.

ActRaiser
10-24-2012, 12:38 PM
I guess I misunderstood what you said because that is what Libby and LDS do in that they believe some of the Bible but ignore large chunks of it that is inconsistent with their beliefs. Is that what you meant? Anyway sorry if I misunderstood you.

Yeah, that's what I meant. There's "Some" And then theres' "Alot".

Libby
10-24-2012, 02:50 PM
So what are your views on hell? Do you believe it's a literal place? If so, who goes there?

I believe hell can be as real as the life we are living, right now. But, I don't believe it is real in the sense that God sends people there for punishment. I don't believe a loving God would do that. We do it to ourselves, with our negative thinking. People can create all kinds of different hell, for themselves, with their thoughts and actions.


As for creating one's own reality, can't say I am familiar with it.

Creating our own reality is the crux of much of eastern thought and philosophy. It's really a very interesting subject. It fits in very nicely with psychology and sociology, as well.

ActRaiser
10-24-2012, 02:58 PM
I believe hell can be as real as the life we are living, right now. But, I don't believe it is real in the sense that God sends people there for punishment. I don't believe a loving God would do that. We do it to ourselves, with our negative thinking. People can create all kinds of different hell, for themselves, with their thoughts and actions.
Creating our own reality is the crux of much of eastern thought and philosophy. It's really a very interesting subject. It fits in very nicely with psychology and sociology, as well.

I think the problem is that people believe in Western thought or Eastern thought. The problem is, that there is only one kind of brain that Humans have. The brain of a person. A Japanese man is no more of a Klingon than an American is from the United Federation of Planets. Real life is not about Eastern or Western thought, it's about how we receive the revelations of God. In this instance, Father God has told everyone that he is here, that he made the world and that he wants us to know he's here, that he has a Son for us to accept and make our God and rescuer from our just punishment of Hell.

There is no other way to have Eternal Life in the way God wants us to possess.

Libby
10-24-2012, 02:59 PM
You do have different beliefs and you worship a false god.

That's your opinion. I, of course, disagree that I worship a "false god". At least, not anymore so than anyone else. We all worship false gods, to some degree.



Anyone who worships false gods can't possibly expect to go to heaven.

I don't believe heaven is just "one place". There are many "heavens"....and many hells. None of them are permanent. Only life with God is eternal. We are all moving in that direction.



I believe that you do believe in false gods even though we have shown over and over again that the gods that mormons believe in are not the same as the God of the Bible.

There is only One God....expressing himself/herself/itself through many personalities....including mine and yours, at the very source of our being.

But, I do not "knowingly" (that's the key word here) worship "false gods".



I believe you when you say that what you believe is true and that the LDS believe that what they believe is true despite going over and over with you (proxy LDS) and them that their beliefs are not consistent with what the Bible teaches.

Then, why would you say we "know" we are doing something wrong? That was clearly a misstatement.

Again, one of the big problems with the Calvinistic system is that people are held accountable for things that even Calvinists don't believe they can really help. That just doesn't make good sense...not for humans and especially not for a loving God.

This is the kind of trouble people get into, when they try to believe that every word of the Bible is true (or non-contradictory).

God gave us intelligence for a reason.

The men who wrote the Bible were not infallible.

ActRaiser
10-24-2012, 03:07 PM
The men who wrote the Bible were not infallible.

One only needs to research the prophecies of the Bible to come to the proper conclusion that God wrote it. Men may not be infallible but they can't see the future either.

Libby
10-24-2012, 03:11 PM
One only needs to research the prophecies of the Bible to come to the proper conclusion that God wrote it. Men may not be infallible but they can't see the future either.

I don't reject that, nor do I even reject most of the Bible. Just the parts that "insult my soul".

Billyray
10-24-2012, 03:13 PM
I don't reject that, nor do I even reject most of the Bible. Just the parts that "insult my soul".

Libby you reject large chunks of the Bible. Don't kid anyone here.

ActRaiser
10-24-2012, 03:15 PM
I don't reject that, nor do I even reject most of the Bible. Just the parts that "insult my soul".

:(
The word of God only sounds like insults to those who refuse to listen to it. If you feel bad about what God has to say to you, just react accordingly and repent. That's the only way you can see what God really has to say. God is a gentleman, he never insults anyone, without proper reason. In fact when God says "No one is righteous no not one". That's not an insult, it's a warning. God loved the whole world so much that he gave his only begotten Son so that whosoever believeth in Him should not die, but receive ever lasting life, but read on, the same p***age goes on to point out that whosoever does not believe in him is condemned already.

That's not God coming up to you in the street and dissin' you with some kind of a King James Busta Rhyme or calling your mother names, it's a warning. Warnings can sometimes feel like insults, but God's warnings always come from love.

Libby
10-24-2012, 03:15 PM
Libby you reject large chunks of the Bible. Don't kid anyone here.

The Bible is a rather large book. I don't believe that I do reject "large chunks". Actually, much of the O.T. could very well be true history. But, some of what is attributed to God, I believe was actually of man. Especially, genocide and other murderous acts. I cannot believe a loving God commanded those acts to be perpetrated upon his very own creation.

Billyray
10-24-2012, 03:16 PM
That's your opinion. I, of course, disagree that I worship a "false god". At least, not anymore so than anyone else. We all worship false gods, to some degree.


No we don't all worship false gods, but and the Mormons certainly do.

We are given information about the God of the Bible yet you and Mormons reject what has been given to us. This is not an interpretation issue that I am speaking about but rather a flat out rejection of what is said.

Billyray
10-24-2012, 03:18 PM
The Bible is a rather large book. I don't believe that I do reject "large chunks". Actually, much of the O.T. could very well be true history. But, some of what is attributed to God, I believe was actually of man. Especially, genocide and other murderous acts. I cannot believe a loving God commanded those acts to be perpetrated upon his very own creation.

We could go over point after point on things that you outright reject. This is cettainly true for the OT as you noted above but it is true also for sections of the NT as well.

Billyray
10-24-2012, 03:21 PM
I don't believe heaven is just "one place". There are many "heavens"....and many hells. None of them are permanent. Only life with God is eternal. We are all moving in that direction.
You reject what the Bvle teaches abut God, what it teaches about salvation, what it teaches about Hell. Why even claim that you believe the Bible given the fact that you don't believe it?

ActRaiser
10-24-2012, 03:21 PM
You reject what the Bvle teaches abut God, what it teaches about salvation, what it teaches about Hell. Why even claim that you believe the Bible given the fact that you don't believe it?

She's offline now. ::Le Sigh::

Billyray
10-24-2012, 03:30 PM
Again, one of the big problems with the Calvinistic system is that people are held accountable for things that even Calvinists don't believe they can really help. That just doesn't make good sense...not for humans and especially not for a loving God.
Libby you throw around Calvinism as if I follow the individual Calvin. I follow what the Bible teaches not what an individual teaches. So now let's look at the issue that you brought up.



Libby
"Again, one of the big problems with the Calvinistic system is that people are held accountable for things that even Calvinists don't believe they can really help"

The Bible teaches us that we have a basic understanding of right and wrong and yet despite this we choose to sin despite knowing better. Is is wrong for God to punish those who break his laws when they know what they are doing is wrong?

Billyray
10-24-2012, 03:38 PM
Then, why would you say we "know" we are doing something wrong? That was clearly a misstatement. .
You know what the Bible says and you know that Mormonism is inconsistent with what is taught in the Bible. We have gone over this multiple times and I have proven this to you yet you still defend their beliefs. You know what they believe is wrong and at one time in your testimony you said that you knew it but now you try to justify their false beliefs. You know better.

Pa Pa
10-24-2012, 03:45 PM
You know better. DB knows better. PaPa knows better.

What are you talking about?

Pa Pa
10-24-2012, 03:47 PM
Answered in one word... JESUS.. IHS jim

So just you and Jesus...I ***ume you know what he looks like. Well if it is just the two of you I guess it would be easy. How angry will you be when you see Mormons there?

Pa Pa
10-24-2012, 03:49 PM
If it doesn't conform to what the bible says I don't believe it.. You on the other hand will believe anything that you feel is right.. What is it that you doubt about the order of creation when God has told us through the Prophet that God created our spirits within us? What us was there to create it in if it wasn't our natural bodies formed in our mothers's wombs.. This is a p***age I have used many times you should know it as well as I, it's in Zech 12:1... IHS jim
What does heaven look like in the Bible, Jim? please tell me...

Pa Pa
10-24-2012, 03:50 PM
I have also heard and read the story of Bill Wiese who has a book ***led: "23 Minutes in Hell." He had an out of body experience I guess it's called and God showed him the horrors of hell. His book is a warning to those who think hell is just a myth or not a literal place, that it is very real just as the Holy Bible indicates.

I saw this...do they have clocks in hell?

Pa Pa
10-24-2012, 03:52 PM
That's my point. ;)

Song of Solomon...Christian porn.

ActRaiser
10-24-2012, 03:53 PM
Song of Solomon...Christian porn.

Not porn. It's God's "You can do this". Manual. If it's between husband and wife, go ahead and do it.

Billyray
10-24-2012, 03:56 PM
What are you talking about?

You guys know it is wrong to sin yet you do it anyway. Would it be unfair for God to punish you for your sins (***uming you remain worshipping your false gods)?

Pa Pa
10-24-2012, 04:08 PM
Not porn. It's God's "You can do this". Manual. If it's between husband and wife, go ahead and do it.

One of Solomon's 400 wives...so much for polygamy problems.

Pa Pa
10-24-2012, 04:09 PM
You guys know it is wrong to sin yet you do it anyway. Would it be unfair for God to punish you for your sins (***uming you remain worshipping your false gods)?

And your judging of others...he is pleased with this?

Billyray
10-24-2012, 04:30 PM
And your judging of others...he is pleased with this?

I am asking you a question.

Libby
10-24-2012, 04:38 PM
You guys know it is wrong to sin yet you do it anyway. Would it be unfair for God to punish you for your sins (***uming you remain worshipping your false gods)?

Again, this is simply your opinion, Billy, not fact.

ActRaiser
10-24-2012, 04:42 PM
One of Solomon's 400 wives...so much for polygamy problems.

There was a time when Solomon was monogamous, and a time when he wasn't.

Libby
10-24-2012, 04:45 PM
:(
The word of God only sounds like insults to those who refuse to listen to it. If you feel bad about what God has to say to you, just react accordingly and repent. That's the only way you can see what God really has to say. God is a gentleman, he never insults anyone, without proper reason. In fact when God says "No one is righteous no not one". That's not an insult, it's a warning. God loved the whole world so much that he gave his only begotten Son so that whosoever believeth in Him should not die, but receive ever lasting life, but read on, the same p***age goes on to point out that whosoever does not believe in him is condemned already.

That's not God coming up to you in the street and dissin' you with some kind of a King James Busta Rhyme or calling your mother names, it's a warning. Warnings can sometimes feel like insults, but God's warnings always come from love.

It would have been wise of you to ask which parts "insult my soul". I am not insulted by being called a sinner. I am a sinner. I also believe that God gave his Son as our Savior and Teacher and that we can find our way back to the Father, through His Son. None of those things "insult my soul".

What insults my soul is the very idea that a loving God would order any of his children to murder one another. When Cain slew Able, there was a big penalty to pay. God does not command us to kill....as a matter of fact, "thou shalt not kill" is one of the 10 Commandments.

Billyray
10-24-2012, 04:47 PM
Again, this is simply your opinion, Billy, not fact.

You guys know it is wrong to sin yet you do it anyway. Would it be unfair for God to punish you for your sins. . .

This is not my opinion it was a question.

Libby
10-24-2012, 04:49 PM
No we don't all worship false gods, but and the Mormons certainly do.

We are given information about the God of the Bible yet you and Mormons reject what has been given to us. This is not an interpretation issue that I am speaking about but rather a flat out rejection of what is said.

I know, at least, one Evangelical Minister who would disagree with you. He gave a sermon on how we all worship false gods, whenever we put anything else over and above our relationship with God, which most of us do on a daily basis. That includes family....money, things, careers, on and on.

Libby
10-24-2012, 04:52 PM
You guys know it is wrong to sin yet you do it anyway. Would it be unfair for God to punish you for your sins. . .

This is not my opinion it was a question.

Billy, you keep moving the goal posts, as you are very prone to do.

Yes, we ALL sin, even knowingly, sometimes. Hopefully, most of us regret that and repent.

BUT, your particular accusation that I (we) "knowingly" worship false gods, is just plain wrong.

Now, please stick to one theme and stop going back and forth, changing the whole context of the conversation.

Pa Pa
10-24-2012, 04:54 PM
I am asking you a question.

As am I concerning the double standard.

ActRaiser
10-24-2012, 05:02 PM
What insults my soul is the very idea that a loving God would order any of his children to murder one another. When Cain slew Able, there was a big penalty to pay. God does not command us to kill....as a matter of fact, "thou shalt not kill" is one of the 10 Commandments.

That's true. And yet, there have been many millions of Christians who believe every bit of the Bible despite that. That doesn't mean that you need to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Some things in the scriptures don't make sense until you are true believer, and even then, some things won't make sense until you study the scriptures thoroughly enough.

Billyray
10-24-2012, 05:41 PM
Billy, you keep moving the goal posts, as you are very prone to do.

No I haven't changed the goal posts. Here is our running dialogue below


So do you think God will forgive mormons who worship false gods especially those who know better such as yourself?



Why would a loving God hold someone responsible for doing something they didn't know was wrong, Billy? Especially, when they are trying their best to do what they believe is RIGHT...?

Because they are sinners. Isn't it just to hold sinners responsible for what they have done?

If a person committed a crime wouldn't it be just to hold that person responsible for the crime that he committed?

Not if that person doesn't know any better,

You know better. DB knows better. PaPa knows better.

Do you honestly believe that we think your religious beliefs are more correct, but we are purposefully dismissing them, regardless? Why in the world would we do that?
.
Each one of us has a basic understanding of right and wrong and yet each of us still chooses wrong. Because of our sin we deserve punishment and it is fair to punish to who do wrong just like I said in a prior post. You know what is right and wrong and yet you persist in doing wrong. Is God unfair to punish you for this (***uming that you do not come to him in faith)?

Pa Pa
10-24-2012, 07:06 PM
There was a time when Solomon was monogamous, and a time when he wasn't.

Do you know his sin was marrying wives who worshiped other gods...God or Prophets has no trouble with polygamy, just some of his wives and the gods they worshiped?

ActRaiser
10-24-2012, 07:11 PM
Do you know his sin was marrying wives who worshiped other gods...God or Prophets has no trouble with polygamy, just some of his wives and the gods they worshiped?

Did you know at one time it was okay for the first Humans to have sex with eachother when they were still family members? It's morally wrong to do so today.

This does not mean that since people have done it before that it's okay. I may have slipped just a tad when I mentioned Solomon being monogamous before, but you also have to remember that his acts of sexuality in the Song of Solomon was with ONE WIFE.

Pa Pa
10-24-2012, 07:18 PM
Did you know at one time it was okay for the first Humans to have sex with eachother when they were still family members? It's morally wrong to do so today.

This does not mean that since people have done it before that it's okay. I may have slipped just a tad when I mentioned Solomon being monogamous before, but you also have to remember that his acts of sexuality in the Song of Solomon was with ONE WIFE.

Comparing the two...and well in the hell you got this is a good comparrsion?

Billyray
10-24-2012, 07:22 PM
Do you know his sin was marrying wives who worshiped other gods...God or Prophets has no trouble with polygamy, just some of his wives and the gods they worshiped?

Gen 2:24*That is why a man leaves his father and mother and is united to his wife, and they become one flesh.

Deut 17
14*When you enter the land the Lord your God is giving you and have taken possession of it and settled in it, and you say, “Let us set a king over us like all the nations around us,” 15*be sure to appoint over you a king the Lord your God chooses. . . 17*He must not take many wives, or his heart will be led astray

ActRaiser
10-24-2012, 07:26 PM
Gen 2:24*That is why a man leaves his father and mother and is united to his wife, and they become one flesh.

Deut 17
14*When you enter the land the Lord your God is giving you and have taken possession of it and settled in it, and you say, “Let us set a king over us like all the nations around us,” 15*be sure to appoint over you a king the Lord your God chooses. . . 17*He must not take many wives, or his heart will be led astray

Oh thanks BillyRay, I forgot this part.

Pa Pa
10-24-2012, 08:59 PM
Gen 2:24*That is why a man leaves his father and mother and is united to his wife, and they become one flesh.

Deut 17
14*When you enter the land the Lord your God is giving you and have taken possession of it and settled in it, and you say, “Let us set a king over us like all the nations around us,” 15*be sure to appoint over you a king the Lord your God chooses. . . 17*He must not take many wives, or his heart will be led astray

Cherry picking did not make you point...God has changed the rules for many groups. There were other people in the land of Nod, where wives were found. Please bring your "A" game with me.

Billyray
10-24-2012, 09:18 PM
Cherry picking did not make you point

Did God nullify those verses?

Pa Pa
10-24-2012, 09:24 PM
Did God nullify those verses?

His rules when he wants...for those to who it was spoken they were to comply...to David he gave him Saul's wives.

Libby
10-24-2012, 10:36 PM
That's true. And yet, there have been many millions of Christians who believe every bit of the Bible despite that. That doesn't mean that you need to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Some things in the scriptures don't make sense until you are true believer, and even then, some things won't make sense until you study the scriptures thoroughly enough.

And, even then, some things still don't make sense. And, a God who murders and tortures his children, is one of the things that doesn't add up.

Libby
10-24-2012, 10:44 PM
No I haven't changed the goal posts. Here is our running dialogue below







Each one of us has a basic understanding of right and wrong and yet each of us still chooses wrong. Because of our sin we deserve punishment and it is fair to punish to who do wrong just like I said in a prior post. You know what is right and wrong and yet you persist in doing wrong. Is God unfair to punish you for this (***uming that you do not come to him in faith)?

You most certainly have changed the goal posts. If you'll notice, we started out talking about worshiping false gods, which you later changed to "sin", in general. I think because you KNOW that the LDS here (and myself, as well) are NOT intentionally worshiping false gods. We do NOT "KNOW" that we are worshiping false gods, as you have claimed.

I do not believe God punishes. I believe he draws us to him, always. I know he sees our mistakes and still loves us, just as any parent would. He is not a murderer or a sadistically punitive being, who constantly judges our every move...nor does he even care what we believe. He cares about our heart and what we "do". He cares whether or not we love and give and how kind we are to one another.

ActRaiser
10-24-2012, 10:54 PM
And, even then, some things still don't make sense. And, a God who murders and tortures his children, is one of the things that doesn't add up.

Yes, indeed once you know the word of God it makes sense. From hereon it will devolve into 'Uh huh, and Uh uh".

Libby
10-24-2012, 11:14 PM
Yes, indeed once you know the word of God it makes sense. From hereon it will devolve into 'Uh huh, and Uh uh".

I'm not a Bible scholar, but I do "know" the Bible fairly well. It was reading it all the way through that actually opened my eyes to some of the problems.

And, no, I doubt we will agree. But, we can agree to disagree. :)

TheSword99
10-25-2012, 03:22 AM
I saw this...do they have clocks in hell?

You didn't read the book. It was 3 AM and then the vision. When it was over, he looked at the time again. Doesn't matter if his vision was real or not, the Scriptures teaches that hell is very real.

TheSword99
10-25-2012, 03:27 AM
Song of Solomon...Christian porn.

I would be very careful about calling something in the Sriptures porn. It denotes the relationship of God and Israel, or Christ and the Church. But the natural man wouldn't see that.

TheSword99
10-25-2012, 03:43 AM
I don't reject that, nor do I even reject most of the Bible. Just the parts that "insult my soul".

I have heard many unbelievers and atheists give the same reason for rejecting the Holy Bible because something in it offends them. Yet these very same people are pro abortion which is killing an innocent child. ****sexuals will reject or deny all p***ages that talks about unnatural affections.

It is impossible for us to understand the mind of a holy God. How our sins affect Him.

TheSword99
10-25-2012, 03:45 AM
Then worry about a possible impending early death and leave my cognition out of your posts.. Remember I think you are even more confused than you believe I am.. After all every spiritual point I make here in based on Biblical reference.. A reference to Alzheimer's whether you remember making it or not is not in your area of expertise.. You are expert on extra biblical reference that counters the Biblical message.. IHS jim

Is everything ok with your health Jim?

Pa Pa
10-25-2012, 07:17 AM
You didn't read the book. It was 3 AM and then the vision. When it was over, he looked at the time again. Doesn't matter if his vision was real or not, the Scriptures teaches that hell is very real.

So 23 min hell trip but no heaven trips?

Pa Pa
10-25-2012, 07:19 AM
I would be very careful about calling something in the Sriptures porn. It denotes the relationship of God and Israel, or Christ and the Church. But the natural man wouldn't see that.

Yes the description of here breasts is...what again?

Libby
10-25-2012, 12:37 PM
I have heard many unbelievers and atheists give the same reason for rejecting the Holy Bible because something in it offends them. Yet these very same people are pro abortion which is killing an innocent child. ****sexuals will reject or deny all p***ages that talks about unnatural affections.

I am not "pro-abortion". I really don't know anyone who is.

As for GLBT they are a very mistreated and maligned group...mostly in the name of religion. It's a real travesty.


It is impossible for us to understand the mind of a holy God. How our sins affect Him.

I think that is an excuse that allows some Christians to feel okay about things that they know are wrong.

Yes, it is impossible to know 'completely' the mind of God, but he is not so very different from us that morality gets turned on it's head. He doesn't teach us one thing (thou shalt not kill...especially innocents like babies and animals) and then have a completely different standard for himself. Sorry, I just don't buy that. It's a very ugly untruth. The men who wrote the Bible were from very primitive, tribal nations. I do believe God spoke to some of the prophets (in particular, to p*** along prophecy of the coming of Jesus Christ), but I don't believe he told these primitive tribes to commit some of the atrocities that they attributed to him.

Libby
10-25-2012, 12:46 PM
A few more excerpts from Elane's book...........


THE PERFECT LOVE OF JESUS CHRIST

Thus Christ, whose love is perfect and whose life was the same, rendered perfect service as He lived, suffered and then died for the sins of each of us, His fellow men. He was my God in every sense of the word, and I knew of His desire that I become as Him. That was why He had asked me twice, “What have you done for your fellow man?” He showed through His own life and atonement that everything about our lives, on earth as well as in the premortal realms I was now remembering, had to do with our relationships with others.

If instead of loving I end up hurting others either physically, emotionally or in any other way, I am diminished spiritually by it and become less like Him. On the other hand, if I have ***isted others in any way by making their lives better, even for a moment or so, then I will be rewarded with additional spiritual power and so become more Christ-like. It is sort of like having a heavenly bank account that grows when I do good for others, and that grows even more when I sincerely pray for them, like the little nurse and the priest had done for me when I had “felt” their prayers in the hospital. I think this is because only God sees my prayers, where many might see my deeds and give me mortal rewards for them.

Durham, Elane (1998-01-08). I Stand All Amazed (Kindle Locations 510-519). Granite Publishing and Distribution. Kindle Edition.

James Banta
10-25-2012, 06:14 PM
Is everything ok with your health Jim?

No..

But because I have cardiomyopathy doesn't mean I am mentally impaired. There are many brilliant men and women that have physical weaknesses. I have a good Doctor who make sure my O2 is where it needs to be and I remember what he has done from my last visit better than he does and he always has my chart right in front of him.. Libby is just trying her best to give a reason why a man would stay close to a God she has rejected.. I think it is more for her personal satisfaction to find a reason to attack my faith than it is that she is concerned for my health.. IHS jim

James Banta
10-25-2012, 06:19 PM
Elane was not a Mormon or anything close to it. She did not join the LDS Church until 15 years after her NDE.

Aw the truth comes out.. She is LDS and when did she finally publish this account? I'd bet it was AFTER she was LDS? Like Smith I would also bet that her remembrances of the events changed over the years.. Now it's clear all this claptrap was worthless.. IHS jim

James Banta
10-25-2012, 06:26 PM
What does heaven look like in the Bible, Jim? please tell me...

Here is a glimpse of heaven directly from the Holy Spirit through the Apostle John


Rev 5
After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.
And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald.
And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.
And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.
And before the throne there was a sea of gl*** like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four beasts full of eyes before and behind.
And the first beast was like a lion, and the second beast like a calf, and the third beast had a face as a man, and the fourth beast was like a flying eagle.
And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.
And when those beasts give glory and honor and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever,
The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,
Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honor and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

Seems a Bible scholar like you could have found this on his own.. IHS jim

Pa Pa
10-25-2012, 09:10 PM
No..

But because I have cardiomyopathy doesn't mean I am mentally impaired. There are many brilliant men and women that have physical weaknesses. I have a good Doctor who make sure my O2 is where it needs to be and I remember what he has done from my last visit better than he does and he always has my chart right in front of him.. Libby is just trying her best to give a reason why a man would stay close to a God she has rejected.. I think it is more for her personal satisfaction to find a reason to attack my faith than it is that she is concerned for my health.. IHS jim
We just know to much about your "faith".

Pa Pa
10-25-2012, 09:14 PM
Here is a glimpse of heaven directly from the Holy Spirit through the Apostle John


Rev 5
After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.
And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald.
And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.
And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.
And before the throne there was a sea of gl*** like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four beasts full of eyes before and behind.
And the first beast was like a lion, and the second beast like a calf, and the third beast had a face as a man, and the fourth beast was like a flying eagle.
And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.
And when those beasts give glory and honor and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever,
The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,
Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honor and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

Seems a Bible scholar like you could have found this on his own.. IHS jim
So looking forward to your "new name" and "white [seer] stone"...keep reading Jim...and then find out that you will be judged according to your works and not your "faith". All this from memory...how long did it take you...oh wait you have 17 more chapters in Revelation...did not ever have to look it up.

ActRaiser
10-25-2012, 09:19 PM
So looking forward to your "new name" and "white [seer] stone"...keep reading Jim...and then find out that you will be judged according to your works and not your "faith". All this from memory...how long did it take you...oh wait you have 17 more chapters in Revelation...did not ever have to look it up.

:Sigh:

Why do you believe that all holy things are magical or occult in origin?

theway
10-25-2012, 09:32 PM
A neurophysicist has been in the news, recently, recounting a near-death-experience he had, while in a coma (his brain was completely flat-lined).

This man had a vague belief that there may be some kind of creator God, but he did not believe in a "personal God"...a God who loved or cared about individuals.

So, he was in a coma, in a very serious, near death situation, with no brain waves showing, and he had this beautiful experience with God (a God of unconditional love), which totally changed his life.

This is one of thousands of NDE's, all somewhat different.

I read a book by a woman who had no belief in God, who became LDS, after an NDE, because of some things she experienced.


http://www.amazon.com/Stand-All-Amazed-Elane-Durham/dp/1890558273

Very interesting book.My sister wrote a book just like this. I noticed that they linked to it in the above website.

Pa Pa
10-25-2012, 09:57 PM
:Sigh:

Why do you believe that all holy things are magical or occult in origin?

I quoted Revelation...what those in heaven are promised...got Bible? You will also find that you will be judged for your works and not your faith.

ActRaiser
10-25-2012, 10:00 PM
I am quoted Revelation...what those in heaven are promised...got Bible? You will also find that you will be judged for your works and not your faith.

I've got a Bible. And I've always understood this p***age as reffering to God judging those based on what their individual rewards in Heaven will be, not whether they get to Heaven in the first place.

Furthermore, the Bible condemns all occult activity. "Seer Stones" do not exist in Christianity.

Libby
10-25-2012, 11:28 PM
My sister wrote a book just like this. I noticed that they linked to it in the above website.

That's very interesting, TW. Was it "Through the Window of Life"? I might be interested in reading it. I find these NDE's very interesting.

(I was going to ask about your sister and how she came to have such an experience...but, you may not want to discuss that here...and I would understand, if you'd rather not)..

Libby
10-25-2012, 11:31 PM
Libby is just trying her best to give a reason why a man would stay close to a God she has rejected.. I think it is more for her personal satisfaction to find a reason to attack my faith than it is that she is concerned for my health.. IHS jim

My question about your "health" had absolutely nothing to do with your faith. I don't begrudge you your faith, such as it is...why would I?

Pa Pa
10-26-2012, 12:37 AM
I've got a Bible. And I've always understood this p***age as reffering to God judging those based on what their individual rewards in Heaven will be, not whether they get to Heaven in the first place.

Furthermore, the Bible condemns all occult activity. "Seer Stones" do not exist in Christianity.

From memory...be kind.

"I saw the dead both small and great gathered before the throne of God to be judged of their works...I think it might be Revelation 20: 7 or 22. Your comments about reward s smacks of LDS overtones. btw from Rev 5...what would a gold crown matter in heaven...can't spend it maybe that we will be made kings to rule over others...this is what said...never taught.

TheSword99
10-26-2012, 03:15 AM
:Sigh:

Why do you believe that all holy things are magical or occult in origin?

Started with Joseph Smith who believed in the occult and seer stones.

ActRaiser
10-26-2012, 01:04 PM
From memory...be kind.

"I saw the dead both small and great gathered before the throne of God to be judged of their works...I think it might be Revelation 20: 7 or 22. Your comments about reward s smacks of LDS overtones. btw from Rev 5...what would a gold crown matter in heaven...can't spend it maybe that we will be made kings to rule over others...this is what said...never taught.

No. LDS believe there are different Heavens that each follower can attain. Telestial Celestrial and Terrestial.

There's 3 Heavens, but those Heavens consist of the sky above the Earth, the sky above the stratosphere between the actual Heaven where God sits, and Heaven it'self.

Rewards in Heaven aren't specified but what is specified is that all those who earn rewards can be with those who have earned greater or lesser rewards at all times.

RealFakeHair
10-26-2012, 02:17 PM
No. LDS believe there are different Heavens that each follower can attain. Telestial Celestrial and Terrestial.

There's 3 Heavens, but those Heavens consist of the sky above the Earth, the sky above the stratosphere between the actual Heaven where God sits, and Heaven it'self.

Rewards in Heaven aren't specified but what is specified is that all those who earn rewards can be with those who have earned greater or lesser rewards at all times.

In my new religion, and a new revelation I just got from my imagainary god, he said if you join my religion and do all that I say, and pay 5% of your income to me, I mean my religion, I the new everylasting prophet of my imagainary god, will give you a free p*** that will allow you to travel from each of the LDS heavens, and for a 10% of your income to me, I mean my religion you will be allowed to pick up one or two of Brigham Young's throw away wifes to take with you, and if you join now I will double the offer by giving you a free p*** out of Hell at no extra cost, but you gotta join now!

Libby
10-27-2012, 02:19 AM
Tonight, 20/20 had on the neurophyscist, I mentioned in the OP. He really does have quite an amazing story. Did anyone else see it?

This is the entire episode.

http://abc.go.com/watch/2020/SH559026/VD55243015/2020-1026--the-sixth-sense

Pa Pa
10-27-2012, 04:36 AM
Did God nullify those verses?

No he provided them husbands and wives...

James Banta
10-27-2012, 08:30 AM
So looking forward to your "new name" and "white [seer] stone"...keep reading Jim...and then find out that you will be judged according to your works and not your "faith". All this from memory...how long did it take you...oh wait you have 17 more chapters in Revelation...did not ever have to look it up.

A seer stone? Really that is what you understand from that p***age in revelation? Your hermeneutics sucks! In the time this was composed a black stone was a symbol of guilt and a white stone of innocence. The p***age says we receive a white stone with a name on it that only we and God know. yes we will be judged by our works or the works that have been imputed to us (Romans 4:23-24). We either obey the commandment to be perfect or we will be judged and sin will be found in us and therefore all sin will be seen in us (James 2:10). The only way to p*** the judgment of God is to have the righteousness of Jesus as our own (2Cor 5:21). So what judgement is left for those that are in Christ Jesus?

You say you know the scripture but like all LDS you see only the judgement for sin but forget that you have not kept the whole of all His commandments. Therefore by the word of God you have condemned yourself. Read James 2:10 and see that no matter how much of the law you obey if you fail in just one point you become guilty of the whole Law.. Papa the fact of sin is that any disobedience must be punished. There is only one punishment and that is the Lake of Fire.. IHS jim

James Banta
10-27-2012, 08:51 AM
From memory...be kind.

"I saw the dead both small and great gathered before the throne of God to be judged of their works...I think it might be Revelation 20: 7 or 22. Your comments about reward s smacks of LDS overtones. btw from Rev 5...what would a gold crown matter in heaven...can't spend it maybe that we will be made kings to rule over others...this is what said...never taught.

It never said we rules over others and the crows are cast at His feet because only He is worthy.. Did you only see what you wanted from the p***age instead of what it says.. I used it to show you a glimpse of what heaven is. you are twisting it into what I don't know.. But to be sure it isn't what is being taught.. there are no LDS overtones in Rev 20.. There in that p***age it clearly states that only the DEAD STAND before the Great White Throne to be judged by their works.. The living are NOT THERE.. Read it don't just try to remember. You memory is faulty.. The dead don't stand do they? Unless these dead are only the spiritually dead.. I agree all these the spiritually dead will be judged by their works. All these will be cast into the Lake of Fire, because all these are guilty of sin and that sin makes them guilty of the whole of God's law.. They are DEAD in their Sin! Anymore all you see kn the scripture is the LDS garbage that is taught by people that have no idea what the scripture teaches.. That is proven by the misinterpretation of the white stone.. IHS jim

James Banta
10-27-2012, 08:57 AM
We just know to much about your "faith".

All you know is a sin that is confessed to God, the Church and the world.. You don't seem to know how God deals with sin at all..


1John 1:9
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

The only one that would jump on this as still being my sin is Satan or those of Satan. Is that what you have become an agent of Satan.. Seems as though that is what you have become.. IHS jim

James Banta
10-27-2012, 09:17 AM
My question about your "health" had absolutely nothing to do with your faith. I don't begrudge you your faith, such as it is...why would I?

Whether is does or not, you did attack my mental capacity because of my heart condition. A condition you have no expertise, license, or even ability to diagnose. So until you have gained a license as an MD and given me a proper examination i would say you have no right to second guess my Doctor in his opinions.. So stop your guesses and stay with your defense of mormonism and you fairy tales told by mormons to defend mormonism.. Fairy stories that contradict the teachings of the Bible.. the Bible teaches us that is it appoint ONCE for everyone to die and after that the judgment.. IT never says we can come back and then die again later.. Keep your anti bible nonsense to yourself.. And when you talk about reincarnation at least be honest that you have.. IHS jim

James Banta
10-27-2012, 09:18 AM
We just know to much about your "faith".

If that were the truth you would join me in that faith.. IHS jim

alanmolstad
10-27-2012, 09:31 AM
Once again i ask..."Whats the topic here?......Oh yes, things dealing with "Heaven"


(so personal things dealing with each other should be avoided.)

Now, as for the TV news story about the guy who had seen something when he became very sick?......

My view of all such things is that "Its a great campfire story".....but not anything to take serious.

Its like stories about Bigfoot, or UFOs, or of seeing "visions" when on drugs, etc...

The human mind, and it's ability to confuse itself, to invent things it believe, to twist what it knows to help it understand things it does not know, is something you just have to keep at the top of the list or reasons why when looking into such claims.


So in other words....I dont believe such stories for a moment....

Libby
10-27-2012, 12:36 PM
Jim, enough with the personal stuff. You are the one who keeps bringing it up and rehashing it. Just drop it.

Alan, if you had watched the video, you would know that this man had absolutely no brain activity, while he was experiencing all of this. He is a neurosurgeon and that fact was a big part of what convinced him that it was not just his "brain" tripping out. There was nothing going on in his brain and he has a copy of the Electroencephalograph that shows this.

Not only that, but his guide was a sister that he had never met (because he was adopted and she died, before he met any of his adopted family). Amazingly, he described her perfectly and drew a picture of her, before he even knew she existed. When he saw her picture, he recognized her, as the person who was his guide during his death experience and he had described her, perfectly, to other family members.

There were a lot of things about his death experience that just cannot be explained away by saying it was just a dream or his imaginings.

Not to say anyone has to believe, but I wouldn't so easily dismiss it. I think, if it's true, it's quite a wonderful thing. His description of "heaven" was glorious...including his encounter with the Divine.

alanmolstad
10-27-2012, 05:15 PM
I would never bet the farm on that type of stuff...remember they can connect up to a pan of jello and get a reading of brain activity....so it's at best a unsustainable way to tell if a person is thinking or not....

Russianwolfe
10-27-2012, 06:26 PM
I would never bet the farm on that type of stuff...remember they can connect up to a pan of jello and get a reading of brain activity....so it's at best a unsustainable way to tell if a person is thinking or not....

Do you have a reference where we can read about this attempt to get a reading of brain activity?

Marvin

alanmolstad
10-27-2012, 07:45 PM
Do you have a reference where we can read about this attempt to get a reading of brain activity?

Marvin

Ummm,,,,from the guy we are talking about or the jello?

Libby
10-28-2012, 12:16 AM
I would never bet the farm on that type of stuff...remember they can connect up to a pan of jello and get a reading of brain activity....so it's at best a unsustainable way to tell if a person is thinking or not....

I've never heard that. References?

alanmolstad
10-28-2012, 08:56 AM
Do you have a reference where we can read about this attempt to get a reading of brain activity?

Marvin
http://www.***-facts.com/view/Facts/20417?id=20417&c_val=2

alanmolstad
10-28-2012, 08:58 AM
I've never heard that. References?
I first heard of this back when i was in school and the case of a girl named Karen Ann Quinlan that was said to be a hopeless case, yet still alive because it was hard to tell if she was "brain dead" by testing with EEG.

However it was pointed out that the use of EEG to tell if a person is alive or dead is way flawed in that many times you can get a flat-line reading only to see later the person was alive...and you can get a good reading when the subject being tested is jello.

http://www.***-facts.com/view/Facts/20417?id=20417&c_val=2

alanmolstad
10-28-2012, 09:12 AM
So what im saying is this:
Im saying that all the stories of people that say they have had a Near-Death Experience (NDE) are just confused.

They may well believe that they truly have seen something on the other side.

And I cant say 100% what they have truly seen or not seen.

But I can say that all the so-called "proof" that a NDE is real is just flawed science.

There is no trust-able proof of any NDE, and in that way it's a lot like the so-called proof of Bigfoot or for UFOs.


All this stuff makes a great story to tell around the camp fire...

Pa Pa
10-28-2012, 09:13 AM
Started with Joseph Smith who believed in the occult and seer stones.

Seer stones, new name started with John the Revealtor.

Pa Pa
10-28-2012, 09:17 AM
If that were the truth you would join me in that faith.. IHS jim

Jim, I hate to say it, but I asked you your view of heaven, your one word answer in large type "Jesus" and no mention of your family...you have just found a new lover; the abuse continues. I cannot tell you the number of times Valerie has been in my prayers. My brother...please turn your heart toward home. Join me in the faith.

alanmolstad
10-28-2012, 09:20 AM
the topic is not a personal one.....If you guys have this un-ending need to talk about each other's personal life, then do so on PMs.....and stop going off-track to this topic about "heaven"

Im simply not interested in personal bickering that is only aimed at causing harm and embarr***ment...

alanmolstad
10-28-2012, 09:44 AM
Now stories on NDE are found a lot within the church.
The christian book store in your city likely has many books where people will tell a story of going to heaven or hell,,,seeing people long dead, and getting to talk with all kinds of beings.

Thats fine.
I got no problem with a person telling a great story.
And I got no problem if in the reading of such a story a reader takes from the story a healthy life lesson.

The problem I worry about is that a lot of people read these stroies and consider them more important than the bible itself.

There is a very real danger that such people place so much trust in a story of a NDE that they dont notice if the story goes off the rails and starts to teach things against the bible.


Thus, I dont trust any NDE story very much.
I consider them at most "entertaining"

Pa Pa
10-28-2012, 11:25 AM
the topic is not a personal one.....If you guys have this un-ending need to talk about each other's personal life, then do so on PMs.....and stop going off-track to this topic about "heaven"

Im simply not interested in personal bickering that is only aimed at causing harm and embarr***ment...

It is about the OP, when the OP was attacked I asked what do you see heaven as...got a one word answer "Jesus". So to the OP; how do you all see heaven looking like?

ActRaiser
10-28-2012, 11:28 AM
Now stories on NDE are found a lot within the church.
The christian book store in your city likely has many books where people will tell a story of going to heaven or hell,,,seeing people long dead, and getting to talk with all kinds of beings.

Thats fine.
I got no problem with a person telling a great story.
And I got no problem if in the reading of such a story a reader takes from the story a healthy life lesson.

The problem I worry about is that a lot of people read these stroies and consider them more important than the bible itself.

There is a very real danger that such people place so much trust in a story of a NDE that they dont notice if the story goes off the rails and starts to teach things against the bible.


Thus, I dont trust any NDE story very much.
I consider them at most "entertaining"

It's possible God would use them to reinforce Biblical faith that a person already has. As long as it agrees with the Word it should be fine.

Libby
10-28-2012, 02:06 PM
I first heard of this back when i was in school and the case of a girl named Karen Ann Quinlan that was said to be a hopeless case, yet still alive because it was hard to tell if she was "brain dead" by testing with EEG.

However it was pointed out that the use of EEG to tell if a person is alive or dead is way flawed in that many times you can get a flat-line reading only to see later the person was alive...and you can get a good reading when the subject being tested is jello.

http://www.***-facts.com/view/Facts/20417?id=20417&c_val=2

Alan, science and technology have advanced greatly (and very rapidly). I don't take lightly, a change of heart, for the positive, gained through personal experience. And, I will certainly respect this man's opinion over those who are not as well informed, as he works in this field AND was a unbeliever, before this experience.

alanmolstad
10-28-2012, 02:40 PM
It's possible God would use them to reinforce Biblical faith that a person already has. As long as it agrees with the Word it should be fine.

again, i dont really care one way or the other.

As long as what a person is saying in their NDE story is in agreement with the Bible it's a non-issue with me.

The thing I do worry about is the ability of such wild stories to sweep people off of sound judgement.

The story can become to such people more important than the bible..

Thats why i tend to just smile when I hear a good NDE story, and consider the whole story just something invented to sell books.

alanmolstad
10-28-2012, 02:44 PM
Alan, science and technology have advanced greatly (and very rapidly). I don't take lightly, a change of heart, for the positive, gained through personal experience. And, I will certainly respect this man's opinion over those who are not as well informed, as he works in this field AND was a unbeliever, before this experience.

I have no problem with a story of a NDE that ends with a nice message that is in full agreement with the bible.

People have made up worst stories I guess....

But as for any real "proof" of a real NDE where it can be said the person actually went to heaven?......nope.

I dont really believe any of such things for a moment.

I dont believe the claims...

I dont believe the so-called science behind such wild claims.



If a person claims that had a NDE and it gets them to repent, turn to the Lord, and become Born-again?...then thats fine...

I could think of worse reasons to become a Christian

alanmolstad
10-28-2012, 02:46 PM
It is about the OP, when the OP was attacked I asked what do you see heaven as...got a one word answer "Jesus".


It is the only correct answer when you think about it.

Heaven is to be "face-to-face" with Jesus.

Libby
10-28-2012, 03:20 PM
I have no problem with a story of a NDE that ends with a nice message that is in full agreement with the bible.

People have made up worst stories I guess....

But as for any real "proof" of a real NDE where it can be said the person actually went to heaven?......nope.

I dont really believe any of such things for a moment.

I dont believe the claims...

I dont believe the so-called science behind such wild claims.



If a person claims that had a NDE and it gets them to repent, turn to the Lord, and become Born-again?...then thats fine...

I could think of worse reasons to become a Christian

Alan, as with everything in the spiritual realm, it is all very subjective. It's about personal relationship, bottom line. But, if we are open to it, we can receive inspiration from stories like this.

alanmolstad
10-28-2012, 03:51 PM
Alan, as with everything in the spiritual realm, it is all very subjective. It's about personal relationship, bottom line. But, if we are open to it, we can receive inspiration from stories like this.


thats why they all write books and sell them to us.

Libby
10-28-2012, 05:31 PM
thats why they all write books and sell them to us.

Sure.

Of course, Christians never write books...right? lol

I have, personally, purchased, probably, a hundred books, or more, written by, so called, mainstream Christians. They do a lot of book writing, themselves, all claiming to have correct "interpretations" of the Bible, even though many contradict one another.

This is why we need to think for ourselves (and follow the Spirit).. and not allow others to tell us what the Bible means (not even your Pastor or favorite "author").

alanmolstad
10-28-2012, 05:59 PM
Sure.

Of course, Christians never write books...right? .as i said, the christian book store in your city should have a listing of many such books about people that claim a NDE.

I just find all this both a bit silly, and totally unsupportable.

at best it's mostly a harmless topic for a book.
But it might become a sorce for may questionable teachings...

Libby
10-28-2012, 07:21 PM
as i said, the christian book store in your city should have a listing of many such books about people that claim a NDE.

I just find all this both a bit silly, and totally unsupportable.

at best it's mostly a harmless topic for a book.
But it might become a sorce for may questionable teachings...

That's fine, Alan. That's your opinion, to which you are en***led.

But, I do know these NDE's change the lives of the people who have them, and often those around them, as well. I just would not, personally, dismiss them so easily.

James Banta
10-30-2012, 08:32 AM
That's fine, Alan. That's your opinion, to which you are en***led.

But, I do know these NDE's change the lives of the people who have them, and often those around them, as well. I just would not, personally, dismiss them so easily.

Yes they can change peoples lives.. So can dreams.. Libby that is just what these things are, dreams. For eternal consequences it would be good to set dreams aside and hold tightly to the Word of God and there we are told that it is appointed once for all men to die and after that the judgment (Hebrews 9:27).. By that I proclaim that these are dreams and not reality. That people only die once. That no one comes back with any message only to die again later. There is no such thing as a near Death Experience.. IHS jim

Libby
10-30-2012, 10:11 AM
Actually, we are living the dream, James, and the NDE's are a touch of reality.

James Banta
10-31-2012, 09:43 AM
Actually, we are living the dream, James, and the NDE's are a touch of reality.

And you have authority for that statement where? Most likely your mind or the mind of so other unbeliever.. IHS jim

Pa Pa
10-31-2012, 11:03 AM
It is the only correct answer when you think about it.

Heaven is to be "face-to-face" with Jesus.


So if joust you and him...allis good? Don't buy it so please do not try to sell it.

James Banta
11-01-2012, 10:09 AM
So if joust you and him...allis good? Don't buy it so please do not try to sell it.

When you have a God as weak and unable to be what the Bible says God is:


Psalm 139:7-10
Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?
If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.
If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea;
Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me.

Every Christian will be personally with Jesus one on one.. And we all will worship Him together.. I know you hate the idea that Jesus is omnipresent, To us is is a wondrous thing to contemplate.. IHS jim

Libby
11-01-2012, 12:34 PM
And you have authority for that statement where? Most likely your mind or the mind of so other unbeliever.. IHS jim

You are starting to sound like a Latter-day Saint, now, James, with talk of "authority".

I have as much authority to speak about God as you do. My "authority" comes from my own experiences with God.

James Banta
11-01-2012, 03:32 PM
You are starting to sound like a Latter-day Saint, now, James, with talk of "authority".

I have as much authority to speak about God as you do. My "authority" comes from my own experiences with God.

When I speak of authority I am speaking of the right to say what we say according to God's word.. When I speak of doctrine I speak with authority because what I say is ALWAYS based in God's word.. As you have said your authority comes from your own heart and Mind.. I have shared with you enough that you know I have AUTHORITY to say that the heart is deceitful above all things.. Therefore your authority you use here (My "authority" comes from my own experiences with God) is deceitful because it isn't based on the Bible! IHS jim

Billyray
11-01-2012, 03:33 PM
I have as much authority to speak about God as you do. My "authority" comes from my own experiences with God.

But your god is the one that you made up in your head.

Libby
11-01-2012, 06:56 PM
When I speak of authority I am speaking of the right to say what we say according to God's word.. When I speak of doctrine I speak with authority because what I say is ALWAYS based in God's word.. As you have said your authority comes from your own heart and Mind.. I have shared with you enough that you know I have AUTHORITY to say that the heart is deceitful above all things.. Therefore your authority you use here (My "authority" comes from my own experiences with God) is deceitful because it isn't based on the Bible! IHS jim

No, James, you share your "interpretation" of the Bible and what you "believe" to be God's word. It has no more authority than any one else's opinion or real experiences with God.

Billyray
11-01-2012, 07:50 PM
No, James, you share your "interpretation" of the Bible and what you "believe" to be God's word.

If you are going to throw around your lame excuse of "interpretation" then you need to tell us which verse you are speaking about so we can discuss it. This excuse is getting really old.

Libby
11-01-2012, 10:41 PM
James was not talking about any particular verse. He is talking about having some kind of authority to speak for God. Why don't you ask him to be more specific.

Billyray
11-01-2012, 10:45 PM
James was not talking about any particular verse. He is talking about having some kind of authority to speak for God. Why don't you ask him to be more specific.

You keep throwing around "interpretation" next time you do how about giving us a verse so we can look at it together. Then we can look at the surrounding verses and the NT as a whole to get to the bottom of the meaning. Are you up for that?

Libby
11-01-2012, 10:50 PM
You keep throwing around "interpretation" next time you do how about giving us a verse so we can look at it together. Then we can look at the surrounding verses and the NT as a whole to get to the bottom of the meaning. Are you up for that?

I already know your interpretations top to bottom, Billy. I'm not interested.

I spent, probably two years or more talking to a Calvinist who really knows the Bible and his particular brand. He was very convincing (at least, to someone like me, who didn't know the Bible very well). I took it very seriously for quite a long while, but eventually couldn't stand the implications of Calvinism, particularly what it implies about God. That system of interpretation has some major problems.

I know you can show me that it's biblical....been there, done that. You may see it as biblical, but it sure doesn't seem "godly".

Billyray
11-01-2012, 10:52 PM
I already know your interpretations top to bottom, Billy. I'm not interested.

And you don't agree with the Christian position. Next time you throw out "interpretation" give me a verse so we can look at it.

Libby
11-01-2012, 10:54 PM
And you don't agree with the Christian position. Next time you throw out "interpretation" give me a verse so we can look at it.

Like I said, not interested.

That doesn't change the FACT that there are many interpretations of the Bible.

Billyray
11-01-2012, 10:54 PM
You may see it as biblical, but it sure doesn't seem "godly".
But you are using your standard for what God should or should not do. Have you ever considered that the Bile is true as written without s****ing sections that you don't like?

Libby
11-01-2012, 11:06 PM
But you are using your standard for what God should or should not do. Have you ever considered that the Bile is true as written without s****ing sections that you don't like?

Freudian slip? Bile? :)

The Bible is true...the "bile" is not.

And, yes, I have considered that the Bible was true, as written, or at least tried to, for quite along time. Actually, I ***umed it was all true...until I bothered to read it all. Then, my heart and soul did a giant flip and I knew I couldn't continue in that vein.

Billyray
11-01-2012, 11:17 PM
Freudian slip? Bile?

No I make a fair number of errors that I don't bother to go back and edit and also I get autocorrect errors when I post on my iPad--which I am doing now--that I fail to catch.

Billyray
11-01-2012, 11:19 PM
Actually, I ***umed it was all true...until I bothered to read it all. Then, my heart and soul did a giant flip and I knew I couldn't continue in that vein.
What made you decide it wasn't true?

Libby
11-01-2012, 11:30 PM
No I make a fair number of errors that I don't bother to go back and edit and also I get autocorrect errors when I post on my iPad--which I am doing now--that I fail to catch.

I don't have an iPad, but I do have an iPhone and that auto correct can be very annoying!

Billyray
11-01-2012, 11:31 PM
I don't have an iPad, but I do have an iPhone and that auto correct can be very annoying!

You can google autocorrect text message errors--they have some doozies.

Libby
11-01-2012, 11:38 PM
What made you decide it wasn't true?

I still believe a lot of it, especially the N.T. But, I got so very depressed reading the O.T. I almost gave up a few times...but, I was determined to finish it. I saw the Bible very differently, after that experience, a year ago, when my church did the Bible in 90 days. Reading huge chunks of it everyday...somehow changed my perspective and my beliefs about it. It was supposed to be a faith strengthening experience. For me, it was anything but...

Libby
11-01-2012, 11:39 PM
You can google autocorrect text message errors--they have some doozies.

Yes, I have seen some of those on Facebook. Some of them are pretty funny! :)

Billyray
11-01-2012, 11:40 PM
I still believe a lot of it, especially the N.T. But, I got so very depressed reading the O.T. I almost gave up a few times...but, I was determined to finish it. I saw the Bible very differently, after that experience, a year ago, when my church did the Bible in 90 days. Reading huge chunks of it everyday...somehow changed my perspective and my beliefs about it. It was supposed to be a faith strengthening experience. For me, it was anything but...
Do you think that your preconceived ideas about God did not match up with the God of the Bible?

Libby
11-01-2012, 11:44 PM
Do you think that your preconceived ideas about God did not match up with the God of the Bible?

I don't think so. It's not like I hadn't heard a lot of these stories before. I had. I just hadn't realized how...awful...some of it really was...these things that man attributed to God were just awful. No wonder Hitler had no qualms about what he did to the Jews. And, then, reading so much of it, everyday, became very depressing.

I couldn't stay in a belief system that made me feel so bad about the God I was worshiping.

Billyray
11-01-2012, 11:51 PM
I don't think so. It's not like I hadn't heard a lot of these stories before. I had. I just hadn't realized how...awful...some of it really was...these things that man attributed to God were just awful.
Isn't God allowed to do what he pleases and why do you think that you are in a position to judge what God does and label it as awful?

Libby
11-01-2012, 11:58 PM
Isn't God allowed to do what he pleases and why do you think that you are in a position to judge what God does and label it as awful?

You're not really understanding my position.

I don't believe God is awful. THAT was the problem.

Billyray
11-02-2012, 12:01 AM
You're not really understanding my position.

I don't believe God is awful. THAT was the problem.

I understand your position. You read it and decided that God couldn't have done that so you ***umed that the Bible was false, rather than accepting that the Bible is true and not judging God for what he has done.

Libby
11-02-2012, 01:27 AM
I understand your position. You read it and decided that God couldn't have done that so you ***umed that the Bible was false, rather than accepting that the Bible is true and not judging God for what he has done.

You have a difficult time allowing people to speak for themselves. Why is that? You always want to manipulate my words, to make them appear as something they are not.

I have never "judged God"...that is just ridiculous on its face.

I have questioned MAN's attributions to God. I believe some of them are false attributions, because a good and perfect and loving God would simply not behave in that way. I believe my deep feelings about this come from the Holy Spirit.

Libby
11-02-2012, 01:28 AM
So, no, you really do not understand. Either that or you do understand, and you are simply playing games.

Billyray
11-02-2012, 07:19 AM
You have a difficult time allowing people to speak for themselves. Why is that? You always want to manipulate my words, to make them appear as something they are not.

I have never "judged God"...that is just ridiculous on its face.

I have questioned MAN's attributions to God. I believe some of them are false attributions, because a good and perfect and loving God would simply not behave in that way. I believe my deep feelings about this come from the Holy Spirit.

I am not speaking for you Libby you made it clear by your own words. You read God's word and you couldn't accept it because God didn't meet your standards o you simply reject it and labeled it false as written. I understand perfectly.

Libby
11-02-2012, 01:32 PM
You don't understand at all, Billy, when you say things like "You read God's word and you couldn't accept it because God didn't meet your standards"...ridiculous and a complete misrepresentation of what I said.

Pa Pa
11-02-2012, 03:48 PM
You don't understand at all, Billy, when you say things like "You read God's word and you couldn't accept it because God didn't meet your standards"...ridiculous and a complete misrepresentation of what I said.

I agree...also why would we want to choose some of his words and reject others? But it is Billy...

Libby
11-02-2012, 03:56 PM
Of course. I'll go out on a limb and suggest that anyone here, who sincerely believes something is God's word, would NOT reject it, just because it didn't "meet their standard". That is ludicrous on it's face. I wouldn't do that and I don't believe ANYONE would.

"Believeability" is the key to acceptance of something that is "claimed" to be God's word. That comes from the Holy Spirit, IMHO.

Billyray
11-02-2012, 04:37 PM
You don't understand at all, Billy, when you say things like "You read God's word and you couldn't accept it because God didn't meet your standards"...ridiculous and a complete misrepresentation of what I said.

I understand perfectly Libby and it is not a mistepresentation of what you have said. You read the Bible and did not like what you read so you decided in your mind that the Bible was false in whatever section you didn't like.

Billyray
11-02-2012, 04:38 PM
Of course. I'll go out on a limb and suggest that anyone here, who sincerely believes something is God's word, would NOT reject it, just because it didn't "meet their standard". That is ludicrous on it's face. I wouldn't do that and I don't believe ANYONE would.


That is exactly what happened to you so it is not ludicrous at all.

Billyray
11-02-2012, 04:39 PM
I agree...also why would we want to choose some of his words and reject others?.

You can't pick and choose what you like and disguard what you don't like.

Libby
11-02-2012, 11:16 PM
That is exactly what happened to you so it is not ludicrous at all.

Not at all. I have not disregarded anything that I "know" is from God.

Libby
11-02-2012, 11:18 PM
You can't pick and choose what you like and disguard what you don't like.

You can pick and choose what is believable and discard what is not. God gave us intelligence for a reason.

Billyray
11-02-2012, 11:58 PM
Not at all. I have not disregarded anything that I "know" is from God.

You have rejected God's word and the basis for this is your logic.