Merit

[dberrie2000]

I am reading Clement's first letter to the church at Corinth--there is some language there that might be interesting:

"Peter, who by reason of wicked jealousy, not only once or twice but frequently endured suffering and thus, bearing his witness, went to the glorious place which he merited."

"Paul showed how to win the prize for patient endurance. Seven times he was in chains, he was exiled, stoned, became a herald of the gospel in East and West, and won the noble renown which his faith merited."

What is meant by the term "merited"?

[Billyray]

I am reading Clement's first letter to the church at Corinth--there is some language there that might be interesting:

"Peter, who by reason of wicked jealousy, not only once or twice but frequently endured suffering and thus, bearing his witness, went to the glorious place which he merited."

"Paul showed how to win the prize for patient endurance. Seven times he was in chains, he was exiled, stoned, became a herald of the gospel in East and West, and won the noble renown which his faith merited."

What is meant by the term "merited"?
Clement's writings are not scripture. Perhaps you can show us from the Bible where it teaches that we earn grace/salvation? Could you also address the following verse in ***us 3?

***us 3
4 But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, 5 he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy.

[James Banta]

Clement's writings are not scripture. Perhaps you can show us from the Bible where it teaches that we earn grace/salvation? Could you also address the following verse in ***us 3?

***us 3
4 But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, 5 he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy.

Yes we know what to do when the scripture doesn't support our position.. Run to any man that is saying what you want to hear and quote him.. All I see DB doing is looking for any support for his position that can't be supported in the Bible.. Grace is the UNMERITED favor of God.. If it were based on what we have earned it would be a wage.. IHS jim

[dberrie2000]

Yes we know what to do when the scripture doesn't support our position.. Run to any man that is saying what you want to hear and quote him.. All I see DB doing is looking for any support for his position that can't be supported in the Bible.. Grace is the UNMERITED favor of God.. If it were based on what we have earned it would be a wage.. IHS jim

If grace is the unmerited favor of God--please give us a quote on that one. Where is the word "unmerited" found in the Bible?

James--I submit to you it's found in the same place as "once-saved-always-saved", "****ousious", "instantaneous salvation", "Trinity" or faith alone, as a theology--is found in the Bible--nowhere.

Nearly all the salvational doctrines of the faith alone are found in the like place.

[James Banta]

If grace is the unmerited favor of God--please give us a quote on that one. Where is the word "unmerited" found in the Bible?

James--I submit to you it's found in the same place as "once-saved-always-saved", "****ousious", "instantaneous salvation", "Trinity" or faith alone, as a theology--is found in the Bible--nowhere.

Nearly all the salvational doctrines of the faith alone are found in the like place.

Since I can give only the English meaning of the words the Bible uses as each word is NOT defined with in it's pages you can either accept the English meaning or look to a different language as for a different meaning.. In English the word grace and yes iut is used often in the Bible means:


Dictionary.com
the free and unmerited favor of God shown towards man (Since we are speaking of how the word is used in religious terms I use the definition of grace in it's religious meaning .


As for the idea of eternal security of the believe it is found in the teaching that all these that come to him in faith believing become His children.. No one has a son or a daughter and when they misbehave disowns them and stop calling them his own.. Once a person enters the family of God becoming His child, they are His child.. He will never leave us if forsake us (Heb 13:5) even if we forsake Him. IHS jim

[Billyray]

Nearly all the salvational doctrines of the faith alone are found in the like place.
DB we don't earn grace or salvation. There are many verses that teach this fact. You are denying the plain reading of scripture. The only possible reason for this since we have been over this with you thousands of times now is that you are dead and blind to the truth.

[James Banta]

DB we don't earn grace or salvation. There are many verses that teach this fact. You are denying the plain reading of scripture. The only possible reason for this since we have been over this with you thousands of times now is that you are dead and blind to the truth.

Because DB doesn't know the meaning of grace he feel justified in saying that unmerited favor is not mentioned in the Bible.. BUT THAT IS THE DEFINITION OF THE WORD GRACE! To mormons the word has a different meaning.. They do this with the word eternal as well.. It is a common practice of mormonism to redefine words when the true meaning of the word points to mormons doctrine being erred.. IHS jim

[TheSword99]

I am reading Clement's first letter to the church at Corinth--there is some language there that might be interesting:

"Peter, who by reason of wicked jealousy, not only once or twice but frequently endured suffering and thus, bearing his witness, went to the glorious place which he merited."

"Paul showed how to win the prize for patient endurance. Seven times he was in chains, he was exiled, stoned, became a herald of the gospel in East and West, and won the noble renown which his faith merited."

What is meant by the term "merited"?


What you have done is isolate verses to make them fit your belief system. We must let scripture interpret scripture and believe what it says. Paul couldn't be any plainer when he said salvation is by grace. It's the gift of God and not of works. Since its a gift, we cannot earn or work for it. Paul and James are in complete harmony. Paul teaches how to be born again. James taught what to do after you are already in the body of Christ. They were speaking to different audiences.

[TheSword99]

If grace is the unmerited favor of God--please give us a quote on that one. Where is the word "unmerited" found in the Bible?

James--I submit to you it's found in the same place as "once-saved-always-saved", "****ousious", "instantaneous salvation", "Trinity" or faith alone, as a theology--is found in the Bible--nowhere.

Nearly all the salvational doctrines of the faith alone are found in the like place.

It doesn't make any difference that the specific phrase "unmerited favor" isn't in the Holy Scriptures. You have to remember that the Bible was translated from different languages. If you fully understood what the word grace means you wouldn't have started this thread. And if you want to harp about certain words or concepts not being in the Bible, then why does Mormonism teach many things that are either not found or are contrary to God's word?

[alanmolstad]

ace which he merited."

"Paul showed how to win the prize for patient endurance. Seven times he was in chains, he was exiled, stoned, became a herald of the gospel in East and West, and won the noble renown which his faith merited."

What is meant by the term "merited"?

He had great Faith, and it was very impressive to see....and he became well known in the church for his great faith.

[dberrie2000]

What you have done is isolate verses to make them fit your belief system. We must let scripture interpret scripture and believe what it says. Paul couldn't be any plainer when he said salvation is by grace.

No one argues that salvation is by grace. That leaves one question--who does this grace go to?

The Biblical record is plain--God's grace unto life goes to those who obey Him, IE--


Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)


38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.


Acts 5:32---King James Version (KJV)

32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.



1 John 1:7----King James Version (KJV)


7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.






It's the gift of God and not of works. Since its a gift, we cannot earn or work for it.

No one is arguing that one can earn it--it would not be grace if that was so. But the scriptures do show that God extends His grace to those who obey Him:

Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)


9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;



Paul and James are in complete harmony.

I agree:


Romans 2:5-11----King James Version (KJV)


5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

[Billyray]

Romans 2:5-11----King James Version (KJV)


5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
Who obeys all of the commandments DB? Did you bother reading a little bit further to see what Paul had to say about this or are you going to ignore that part?

BTW Paul clearly taught that we are saved by grace through faith and not by works in Ephesians. I guess you plan on ignoring that one too.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post----Romans 2:5-11----King James Version (KJV)


5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

11 For there is no respect of persons with God.


Who obeys all of the commandments DB? Did you bother reading a little bit further to see what Paul had to say about this or are you going to ignore that part?

What about continuance and those who have done good do you not consider faith in Christ? How does your question about who obeys-- somehow cancel and cover the testimony of Paul that God judges all men according to deeds--and those who continue in well doing--eternal life?


1 Corinthians 7:19---King James Version (KJV)


19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

[James Banta]

[quote]Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post----Romans 2:5-11----King James Version (KJV)


5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

11 For there is no respect of persons with God.



What about continuance and those who have done good do you not consider faith in Christ? How does your question about who obeys-- somehow cancel and cover the testimony of Paul that God judges all men according to deeds--and those who continue in well doing--eternal life?


1 Corinthians 7:19---King James Version (KJV)


19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

The point here db is that NO ONE is obedient.. There is no one righteous, NO ONE that seeks after good.. We have all together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. Our throats are open graves; we all uttered deceit; showing that we are full of cursing and bitterness: that we are all murderers swift to shed blood: Choosing destruction and misery over love and mercy: That within us there is no love of God (Romans 3:12-18).. With a nature like that you believe that we can be obedient? No we must have a new nature created within us that yearns for love to be our desire. Even then we live in the flesh, in bodies of sin and death (Romans 7:19).. IHS jim

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post----Romans 2:5-11----King James Version (KJV)


5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

11 For there is no respect of persons with God.



What about continuance and those who have done good do you not consider faith in Christ? How does your question about who obeys-- somehow cancel and cover the testimony of Paul that God judges all men according to deeds--and those who continue in well doing--eternal life?


1 Corinthians 7:19---King James Version (KJV)


19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.


The point here db is that NO ONE is obedient.. There is no one righteous, NO ONE that seeks after good..

Could you please explain for us how injecting your own man-made theology here somehow cancels out what Paul testifies to? :

6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

[Billyray]

Could you please explain for us how injecting your own man-made theology here somehow cancels out what Paul testifies to? :

The only one who is injecting a man made theology is you DB. You claim that you earn things by being obedient but you aren't obedient nor is anyone else. According to your man made theology can any person obey all of the commandments all of the time and thus merit his salvation?

[dberrie2000]

dberrie---Could you please explain for us how injecting your own man-made theology here somehow cancels out what Paul testifies to? :

6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:



The only one who is injecting a man made theology is you DB.

What do you find man-made about Paul's testimony?


Romans 2:5-11---King James Version (KJV)


5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

[Billyray]

What do you find man-made about Paul's testimony?


Romans 2:5-11---King James Version (KJV)


5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
This section is part of Paul's argument rhat continues into chapter 4 and what he says is absolutely true. If a person keeps all the commandments he will be justified. Certainly I don't disagree with that fact. A person who keeps the law perfectly will be justified just like it says later in this same chapter. Now the question is wh keeps the law perfectly? Read on in Paul's argument and he will tell you.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post---What do you find man-made about Paul's testimony?


Romans 2:5-11---King James Version (KJV)

5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

8 But unto them that are contentious, and [B]do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

11 For there is no respect of persons with God.


This section is part of Paul's argument rhat continues into chapter 4 and what he says is absolutely true.

Then why not believe Paul?

7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

[Billyray]

Z
[quote]Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post---What do you find man-made about Paul's testimony?


Romans 2:5-11---King James Version (KJV)

5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

8 But unto them that are contentious, and [B]do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

11 For there is no respect of persons with God.



Then why not believe Paul?

7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

I do believe Paul. The standard that we will be judged is perfect obedience. Those who obey the law perfectly will be justified by the law. When unbelievers who do not accept Christ stand before him this will be the basis for their judgement and their ultimate condemnation because we all sin and fall short. If you continue on into chapter 3 and 4 you will see the rest of Paul's argument. But you are not really interested in the truth because it condemns your religion.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post---What do you find man-made about Paul's testimony?


Romans 2:5-11---King James Version (KJV)

5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

11 For there is no respect of persons with God.



Then why not believe Paul?

7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:



I do believe Paul. The standard that we will be judged is perfect obedience.

Then why do you persist in posting that works have nothing to do with salvation?

[Billyray]

Then why do you persist in posting that works have nothing to do with salvation?
Because they don't. You don't seem to grasp what Paul is saying despite me going over this with you multiple times now In Romans 2 it says that a person can be justified by the works of the law if he obeys the law, which is true. But the problem that you don't seem to quite understand--and Paul makes this perfectly clear as he moves into chapter 3 and 4--is that nobody is able to keep the law except Christ. Since nobody is capable of keeping the law then you can't be justified by your works because you are incapable of doing so. Therefore our only hope is to place our trust in Christ to save us from our sins. Go back and read Romans 2, 3, and 4 and it should make more sense to you. But I am not holding my breath that you will understand it even though I have explained it to you.

[Billyray]

Then why not believe Paul?


I do believe Paul but you don't seem to believe him. Here is verse 13--one that you conveniently left out--do you believe Paul when he says

Romans 2:13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.

[RealFakeHair]

Then why do you persist in posting that works have nothing to do with salvation?

I'd like to remind everyone what the definition of (Salvation) in mormonthink means, exaltation, ie me be a god someday.
Salvation to a christian means simplely, being with God in Heaven, and not eternal ****ation with the mormonthink brother of the mormon jesus, Satan in Hell.

[Billyray]

Then why do you persist in posting that works have nothing to do with salvation?

Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,

[Billyray]

Then why not believe Paul?

Romans 2:13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.

Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,

[dberrie2000]

Romans 2:13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.

Correct--obedience to Christ is necessary for His grace unto life.

[Billyray]

Correct--obedience to Christ is necessary for His grace unto life.
Romans 2:13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.

Romans 3
10*As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

11*There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

12*They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

13*Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:

14*Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:

15*Their feet are swift to shed blood:

16*Destruction and misery are in their ways:

17*And the way of peace have they not known:

18*There is no fear of God before their eyes.

19*Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

20*Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.



Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,

[RealFakeHair]

Correct--obedience to Christ is necessary for His grace unto life.

If this sentence make sense, then why have the mormon grace anyways?
In the christain world Grace over-rides the Law. It may not be fare in mormonland, but it is just the way it is.

[Billyray]

Correct--obedience to Christ is necessary for His grace unto life.
Romans 2:13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the [Mosaic] law who will be declared righteous.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Billyray View Post---Romans 2:13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.


Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post---Correct--obedience to Christ is necessary for His grace unto life.


If this sentence make sense, then why have the mormon grace anyways?

Because God's grace is what saves.


In the christain world Grace over-rides the Law.

Correct. And this is who this grace goes to:


Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)


9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;


It may not be fare in mormonland, but it is just the way it is.

It's not only fair--but good to the LDS. They believe it is God's grace that saves--and that grace goes to those who obey Christ.

[Billyray]

It's not only fair--but good to the LDS. They believe it is God's grace that saves--and that grace goes to those who obey Christ.
Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.

[Billyray]

Because God's grace is what saves.

8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

[James Banta]

Why do the obedient need grace? They have earned their place with God by keeping the commandments. By doing good, doing the works of God. By the Holy Spirit though the Apostle Paul teaches us that if salvation is by works that it is not of Grace, and it it is by grace it is not of works (Roman 11:6). You like ever other LDS I have known want to marry works and grace.. The Holy Spirit in this p***age teaches us that is NOT possible.. I can show that through the imputed righteousness of Jesus in each and every believer how we are obedient, because Jesus was TOTALLY obedient. But in your way of addressing the issue you can't show me how we are saved by our personal obedience and still stay totally true to the entire scripture that tells us that Abram believed and it was counted to him as righteousness, or that whoso ever believes in Jesus will not perish but have everlasting life, or that it is by grace we are saved through faith and not by works..

I have heard countless LDS tell me that they are saved by grace. Then there are those like you that throw Hebrews 5:9 up and insist that we are saved through by grace our personal obedience.. But how can that be true when time and again in the scripture, even as taught directly from the Lord that it is our faith in Him where salvation is found? Rethink imputed righteousness as the way we can claim 100% obedience to all the commandments of God (Romans 4:22-24).. IHS jim

[James Banta]

Could you please explain for us how injecting your own man-made theology here somehow cancels out what Paul testifies to? :

6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

Nothing man made about it. It comes from the Holy Spirit though the Apostle Paul (Romans 4:22-24).. With the imputed righteousness of Jesus I share in His deeds. I hold His righteousness as my own. Who can call we a sinner when I stand in the robes of His righteousness.. Are you going to tell me now that He didn't do well and has no Glory, that He has no honor, that within His there is no immortality or eternal life?

Tell is it still true that mormon doctrine teaches that all receive immortality? But if I interpret the p***age as you do that a person must do well and seek glory and honor to gain eternal life, then I must see that immortality is gained in that same way. Therefore by your interpretation of the p***age only those that do all these thing will receive immortality.. How can that be (1Cor 15:22).. IHS jim

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post---Could you please explain for us how injecting your own man-made theology here somehow cancels out what Paul testifies to? :

6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:



Nothing man made about it. It comes from the Holy Spirit though the Apostle Paul (Romans 4:22-24)..

Then why not believe it? Why teach a gospel that has no acts of obedience necessary for His grace unto life--IE--faith alone?


James 2:24----New American Standard Bible (NASB)


24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

The whole post and pillar the faith alone swear by is the very theology the Bible testifies against.


Matthew 7:21---King James Version (KJV)

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven

[Billyray]

Then why not believe it? Why teach a gospel that has no acts of obedience necessary for His grace unto life--IE--faith alone?

Works do not contribute for salvation. Read Romans 4 again perhaps this time this concept might sink in, or perhaps read Ephesians 2 again. You have yet explain these verses--rather you avoid them by talking about anything but these verses. An interesting side note--but one that is relevant to our discussion-is that I am reading an interesting secular book called "Spy the Lie" which is about people who lie and the deceptive behavior that they display.

[dberrie2000]

Works do not contribute for salvation.

Billyism will always be trumped by the Biblical truths:


Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)


9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

[Billyray]

Billyism will always be trumped by the Biblical truths:

Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.

DB can you address this verse for me--and I will watch to see if you avoid addressing it.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Billyray View Post---Works do not contribute for salvation.


Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post--Billyism will always be trumped by the Biblical truths:


Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)

9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;


Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.

No one is arguing what saves mankind--God's grace does. Not faith, not belief, not works, not endurance, etc. The question that remains unanswered is ----who does this grace unto life go to?

Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)

9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

The only ones that His grace unto life goes to in the Bible are those who obey and follow Christ.


Matthew 7:21---King James Version (KJV)

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

[Billyray]

No one is arguing what saves mankind--God's grace does. Not faith, not belief, not works, not endurance, etc.
Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.

What role do works play in grace according to Romans 11:6. Again I will see it you are honest and address this verse or take the deceptive role and avoid addressing it.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post----No one is arguing what saves mankind--God's grace does. Not faith, not belief, not works, not endurance, etc. The question that remains unanswered is ----who does this grace unto life go to?

Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)

9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

The only ones that His grace unto life goes to in the Bible are those who obey and follow Christ.


Matthew 7:21---King James Version (KJV)

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.


Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.

What role do works play in grace according to Romans 11:6. Again I will see it you are honest and address this verse or take the deceptive role and avoid addressing it.

Sorry, Billyray--but taking a scripture where Paul is referring to the Mosaic Law--and then attempting to cover and cancel out scriptures that pertain to obedience to the gospel of Christ is not my idea of truth.

That's nothing less that a cat in a litter box theology, for me.

[Billyray]

Sorry, Billyray--but taking a scripture where Paul is referring to the Mosaic Law--and then attempting to cover and cancel out scriptures that pertain to obedience to the gospel of Christ is not my idea of truth.

That's nothing less that a cat in a litter box theology, for me.
Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.

So grace under the Law was not based on works but under the New Covenant grace was based on works?

[Billyray]

That's nothing less that a cat in a litter box theology, for me.
This is clearly deceptive behavior on your part by not answering my question. Do you not even realize that you are doing this?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post---Sorry, Billyray--but taking a scripture where Paul is referring to the Mosaic Law--and then attempting to cover and cancel out scriptures that pertain to obedience to the gospel of Christ is not my idea of truth.

That's nothing less that a cat in a litter box theology, for me.


Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.

So grace under the Law was not based on works

Under the Mosaic Law--there was no grace unto eternal life.


but under the New Covenant grace was based on works?

Yes. Grace unto life is given to those who obey God in the NT covenant:

Matthew 7:21---King James Version (KJV)

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

[Billyray]

Under the Mosaic Law--there was no grace unto eternal life.

Romans 11
4 But what is the divine response to him? “I have kept for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” 5 In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God’s gracious choice. 6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.

So were those spoken about in verse 5 saved?

[Billyray]

Yes. Grace unto life is given to those who obey God in the NT covenant:
And what about those in the OT--weren't any of them saved?

[Billyray]

Matthew 7:21---King James Version (KJV)

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

John 6
28 Therefore they said to Him, “What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?”
29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.”

And what works are we suppose to do according to Jesus?

[dberrie2000]

John 6
28 Therefore they said to Him, “What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?”
29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.”

And what works are we suppose to do according to Jesus?

Any work that cons***utes the integral components of "faith"--IE:


Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)

38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.


John 14:15---King James Version (KJV)

15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

[Billyray]

Any work that cons***utes the integral components of "faith"--IE:

John 6
28 Therefore they said to Him, “What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?”
29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.”

And what works are we suppose to do according to Jesus in these verses?

[dberrie2000]

John 6
28 Therefore they said to Him, “What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?”
29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.”

And what works are we suppose to do according to Jesus in these verses?

If faith without works is dead--all of the works that give faith life.


James 2:20-26---King James Version (KJV)


20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

[Billyray]

If faith without works is dead--all of the works that give faith life.

I see you are still showing your deceptive behavior by not answering my question.

John 6
28 Therefore they said to Him, “What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?”
29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.”

And what works are we suppose to do according to Jesus in these verses?

[dberrie2000]

I see you are still showing your deceptive behavior by not answering my question.

John 6
28 Therefore they said to Him, “What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?”
29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.”

And what works are we suppose to do according to Jesus in these verses?

These works:


John 14:12---King James Version (KJV)

12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

[RealFakeHair]

Because God's grace is what saves.



Correct. And this is who this grace goes to:


Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)


9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;



It's not only fair--but good to the LDS. They believe it is God's grace that saves--and that grace goes to those who obey Christ.

After reading this, you must have a lot of debates with yourself>

[Billyray]

These works:

John 6
28 Therefore they said to Him, “What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?”
29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.”

And what works are we suppose to do according to Jesus in these verses?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post

John 14:12---King James Version (KJV)

12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.


John 6
28 Therefore they said to Him, “What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?”
29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.”

And what works are we suppose to do according to Jesus in these verses?

Those works commanded by Christ and His apostles--including this one:


Mark 16:16---King James Version (KJV)

16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be ****ed.