The Problem of Hell

[Libby]

I found this Wiki- article on the Philosophy of Religion that brings up many points, about hell, that I have pondered...and a big reason why I reject the concept of hell, as presented by most conservative Christians.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Problem_of_Hell


The "Problem of Hell" is a possible ethical problem related to religions in which portrayals of Hell are ostensibly cruel, and are thus inconsistent with the concepts of a just, moral and omnibenevolent God.[1] The problem of Hell revolves around four key points: it exists in the first place, some people go there, there is no escape, and it is punishment for actions or inactions done on Earth.[2]

The concept that non-believers of a particular religion face ****ation is called special salvation. The concept that all are saved regardless of belief is referred to as universal reconciliation. The minority Christian doctrine that sinners are destroyed rather than punished eternally is referred to as annihilationism or conditional immortality [3]


There are several major issues to the problem of hell. The first is whether the existence of hell is compatible with justice. The second is whether it is compatible with God's mercy, especially as articulated in Christianity. A third issue, particular to Christianity, is whether hell is actually populated, or if God will ultimately restore all immortal souls (universal reconciliation) in the World to Come. Criticisms of the doctrines of hell can focus on the intensity or eternity of its torments, and arguments surrounding all these issues can invoke appeals to the omnipotence, omniscience, and omnibenevolence of God. In some aspects, the problem of Hell is similar to the problem of evil, ***uming the suffering of Hell is something God could have prevented; The discussion regarding the problem of evil may thus also be of interest for the problem of Hell.

[Billyray]

I found this Wiki- article on the Philosophy of Religion that brings up many points, about hell, that I have pondered...and a big reason why I reject the concept of hell, as presented by most conservative Christians.


What verses in the Bible about Hell do you interpret differently than me to lead to your your disbelief in Hell?

[James Banta]

What verses in the Bible about Hell do you interpret differently than me to lead to your your disbelief in Hell?

She doesn't need to quote the Bible she has Wikipedia.. IHS jim

[Libby]

We are all aware of the verses in the Bible that talk about hell, James.

This article from Wiki is a philosophical approach, which is more or less what I have used to come to some of my own conclusions about hell. You know logic...using your brain to engage some of these questions? You guys love to throw that around, when you're talking about Mormonism. Not so much, when it's your favorite beliefs and theories being thrown under the bus.

[Billyray]

This article from Wiki is a philosophical approach, which is more or less what I have used to come to some of my own conclusions about hell. You know logic...using your brain to engage some of these questions?

Proverbs 14:12 There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

[Libby]

Proverbs 14:12 There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

Yes, and taking things literally that were not intended as literal would be one of those things that may "seem right unto man".

[Libby]

I can sure see why James was banned. He was being as condescending as ever. Those mods over there don't put up with much of that.

[Billyray]

This article from Wiki is a philosophical approach, which is more or less what I have used to come to some of my own conclusions about hell. You know logic...using your brain to engage some of these questions?

Proverbs 14:12 There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

Yes, and taking things literally that were not intended as literal would be one of those things that may "seem right unto man".

Don't you think that your first post above is exactly what Proverbs 14:12 is speaking about?

[Billyray]

I can sure see why James was banned. He was being as condescending as ever. Those mods over there don't put up with much of that.
What about me being banned over there. Anything yet?

[Libby]

It looks like you dropped out of that conversation about the 7th or 8th page. Like I said, I don't know that this is the thread where you were banned. You should know that better than I. I don't see any remarks from the mods on any of your posts, so I don't think anything on this particular thread got you banned. Not that I could see. I still haven't read all of it. It's a long thread. I'm on page 12 right now...just skimming.

Knowing you, I'm sure that's not the only thread you ever participated in.

[Libby]

Don't you think that your first post above is exactly what Proverbs 14:12 is speaking about?

No, actually, I think that verse is talking about taking salvation and your life completely into your own hands, without counsel from the Holy Spirit. People who completely turn from God and do things their own way.

[Billyray]

It looks like you dropped out of that conversation about the 7th or 8th page. Like I said, I don't know that this is the thread where you were banned. You should know that better than I. I don't see any remarks from the mods on any of your posts, so I don't think anything on this particular thread got you banned. Not that I could see. I still haven't read all of it. It's a long thread. I'm on page 12 right now...just skimming.

Knowing you, I'm sure that's not the only thread you ever participated in.

I participated in many threads because I had over 3,000 posts. According to what you are saying it looks like they scrubbed the majority of my posts. Why do you think that they did that?

[Libby]

Explained in another thread.

Tell you what, Billy, if you will engage some of the questions brought up in the link I provided above, I will engage you on another thread, regarding baptism.


The "Problem of Hell" is a possible ethical problem related to religions in which portrayals of Hell are ostensibly cruel, and are thus inconsistent with the concepts of a just, moral and omnibenevolent God.

Maybe, you can explain to me, why you believe a loving God could torture most of his creation, eternally, for committing a few sins, in a relatively brief period of time?

How could a loving, benevolent God, who is full of grace and forgiveness, behave in such a manner, do you think? Not only that, but how could it even be considered "just"?

[Libby]

And please don't brush this off with the old chestnut about not understanding the Mind of God. I agree, we do not, but this is major stuff that we should be able to understand, at least, to SOME degree.

[Billyray]

How could a loving, benevolent God, who is full of grace and forgiveness, behave in such a manner, do you think?

God is God and he does whatever He pleases. All of us deserve wrath. God would be just to send everyone of us to Hell. Just like a judge who sentences people to prison--he would be just to sent every single person who is guilty to prison. If that judge allowed a person to go free despite being guilty then that would be meriful even though that person deserved punishment.

[Billyray]

Maybe, you can explain to me, why you believe a loving God could torture most of his creation, eternally, for committing a few sins, in a relatively brief period of time?
All of us have sinned against God and all of us deserve punishment.

[alanmolstad]

someone should have taught the kid who wrote that thing that "God is not a man"

And that means that god does not think like we do, nor can we place our ideas of right and wrong onto Him....

[Libby]

God is God and he does whatever He pleases. All of us deserve wrath. God would be just to send everyone of us to Hell. Just like a judge who sentences people to prison--he would be just to sent every single person who is guilty to prison. If that judge allowed a person to go free despite being guilty then that would be meriful even though that person deserved punishment.

Okay, one step at a time. ***uming that we all deserve some kind of "punishment" for our sins, how do you justify an eternal punishment for sins committed during a very short period of time? How is that just?

[Libby]

someone should have taught the kid who wrote that thing that "God is not a man"

And that means that god does not think like we do, nor can we place our ideas of right and wrong onto Him....

This is the kind of answer that is a copout, IMO. Doesn't matter if God is a man or a spirit....I'm talking about what some Christians believe he is capable of doing to his creation.....and why they see that as "God-like"..?

[alanmolstad]

again....trying to place your private morality onto God and judgeing him by it will sooner of later end you up at a point where you simply dont get what god is thinking?


this is the very heart of the book of ***.

The challenge to god that *** makes was NEVER answered...

God simply told *** to trust him by pointing out that humans and God are too different to think the same about anything....
...

Thats the only answer that actually answers by the way...

[Billyray]

Okay, one step at a time. ***uming that we all deserve some kind of "punishment" for our sins, how do you justify an eternal punishment for sins committed during a very short period of time? How is that just?
The same reason that people who commit crimes that span a short period of time can spend their entire life in prison.

[alanmolstad]

***'s question is basicly the same as this topic.

a human looks at the way the world is...evil wins, good people die, one sin lands you in hells fire forever, and demands of God that he tell us how this can be fair?


God never answers the way *** wanted....

[Libby]

I trust God.

I don't always trust what man has said about God.

If all you can tell me is that I just need to believe the Bible exactly as interpreted by mainstream Christianity, then you really have nothing new to say to me. Been there, done that. My God is not a some horrible creature who destroys most of his creation in the name of some kind of bogus justice, which isn't justice at all (if you really engage your brain and think about it).

[Billyray]

. . .trying to place your private morality onto God and judgeing him by it ...
That is exactly right alan--Libby is using what she thinks God should or should not do as a basis for judgement against God.

[Libby]

Okay, I can see both of your brains are on shutdown.

Goodnight.

[alanmolstad]

So it goes like this...

The human: "Lord, how can you say you love us, yet send billions of Mormons to burn forever in the fires of Hell?"

God : "Were you listening to the stars sing at the moment of creation as I was?"

[Billyray]

If all you can tell me is that I just need to believe the Bible exactly as interpreted by mainstream Christianity, then you really have nothing new to say to me.
But this is not what we are arguing about Libby--we are arguing the fact that you don't like the God that is taught in the Bible--this God does not meet your standards so you reject him and his word by saying that the Bible is false.

[cheachea]

Revelation 14:9-11

9 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be Tormented with Fire and Brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their Torment ascends Forever and Ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”



Revelation 20:10

10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the Lake of Fire and Brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be Tormented Day and Night Forever and Ever.



Revelation 20:14-15

14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the Lake of Fire. This is the second death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the Lake of Fire.

[Libby]

But this is not what we are arguing about Libby--we are arguing the fact that you don't like the God that is taught in the Bible--this God does not meet your standards so you reject him and his word by saying that the Bible is false.

Okay, have it your way, Billy.

I reject the Bible (even though I still read it, almost everyday). :rolleyes:

[TheSword99]

I can sure see why James was banned. He was being as condescending as ever. Those mods over there don't put up with much of that.


The creators of Wikipedia are the first to admit that not every entry is accurate and that it might not be the best source of material for research papers.

[TheSword99]

We are all aware of the verses in the Bible that talk about hell, James.

This article from Wiki is a philosophical approach, which is more or less what I have used to come to some of my own conclusions about hell. You know logic...using your brain to engage some of these questions? You guys love to throw that around, when you're talking about Mormonism. Not so much, when it's your favorite beliefs and theories being thrown under the bus.

But that's the danger right there, Libby. You draw your own conclusions largely based on feelings instead of letting the Scriptures speak for themselves. Why would Christ warn about hell if there's nothing to worry about?

[TheSword99]

She doesn't need to quote the Bible she has Wikipedia.. IHS jim

It's amazing isn't it Jim, that the lds will go to great lengths to try and find support for their beliefs. Even running to church fathers as a last resort even though these men never taught anything like Mormonism. Why are they so against the Bible?

[TheSword99]

I found this Wiki- article on the Philosophy of Religion that brings up many points, about hell, that I have pondered...and a big reason why I reject the concept of hell, as presented by most conservative Christians.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Problem_of_Hell


Libby, let me ask you, do you believe in the lds version of outer darkness where the devil, the son of perdition and ex mormons (apostates like you and my wife) go?

[James Banta]

We are all aware of the verses in the Bible that talk about hell, James.

This article from Wiki is a philosophical approach, which is more or less what I have used to come to some of my own conclusions about hell. You know logic...using your brain to engage some of these questions? You guys love to throw that around, when you're talking about Mormonism. Not so much, when it's your favorite beliefs and theories being thrown under the bus.

Yes use your own heart and mind instead of trusting God, that us a great plan.. I am sorry for you Libby, really sorry.. You have deserted God for the idol of your own conclusions. If you wish to throw the Bible under your personal bus, please go ahead.. If you want to trash the Word of God, or God Himself for that matter you have that right.. I think you are wrong and will counter all your heartfelt thoughts with what God has said on the matters you bring up.. This is a forum that speaks to spiritual matters and this channel is to discuss the mormonism religion whether it is of man or God.. You unbiblical attacks on people that believe the Bible is unwelcome here since this is NOT the place for those attacks.. Go to the atheism channel and fill it is your hate for God..

You have gone down a long way since you left mormonism. You should consider going back and get some spiritual support. You have lost all your moorings and are totally adrift. As the Bible says you are being ****n about by ever wind of doctrine because you will not submit yourself to the teachings of God.. And someone as double mined as you have proven yourself to be has nothing to share here because I doubt that you know what you yourself believe.. May God bring you to Himself.. You are a constant subject of my prayers.. IHS jim

[James Banta]

Yes, and taking things literally that were not intended as literal would be one of those things that may "seem right unto man".

Everything you disagree with seems to be that which shouldn't be taken literally. That is your only way you can look at the scripture.. Nothing about God's righteousness, His insistence for perfection can be taken literally.. Only His live and acceptance is literal to you.. In your way of thinking Jesus was totally unnecessary.. After all God's justice isn't literal now is it? IHS jim

[James Banta]

I can sure see why James was banned. He was being as condescending as ever. Those mods over there don't put up with much of that.

But Libby NEVER makes personal attack does she... IHS jim

[Libby]

Not an attack. Just an observation. You know, like the "observations" you make about me, all the time. ;)

[Libby]

Everything you disagree with seems to be that which shouldn't be taken literally. That is your only way you can look at the scripture.. Nothing about God's righteousness, His insistence for perfection can be taken literally.. Only His live and acceptance is literal to you.. In your way of thinking Jesus was totally unnecessary.. After all God's justice isn't literal now is it? IHS jim

I honestly don't understand what in the world you're trying to say, here.

At any rate, I don't believe that "Jesus is totally unnecessary". Far from it.

[Libby]

Yes use your own heart and mind instead of trusting God, that us a great plan.. I am sorry for you Libby, really sorry.. You have deserted God for the idol of your own conclusions. If you wish to throw the Bible under your personal bus, please go ahead.. If you want to trash the Word of God, or God Himself for that matter you have that right.. I think you are wrong and will counter all your heartfelt thoughts with what God has said on the matters you bring up.. This is a forum that speaks to spiritual matters and this channel is to discuss the mormonism religion whether it is of man or God.. You unbiblical attacks on people that believe the Bible is unwelcome here since this is NOT the place for those attacks.. Go to the atheism channel and fill it is your hate for God..

You have gone down a long way since you left mormonism. You should consider going back and get some spiritual support. You have lost all your moorings and are totally adrift. As the Bible says you are being ****n about by ever wind of doctrine because you will not submit yourself to the teachings of God.. And someone as double mined as you have proven yourself to be has nothing to share here because I doubt that you know what you yourself believe.. May God bring you to Himself.. You are a constant subject of my prayers.. IHS jim

Well, thank you for your prayers, James. You are in mine, as well...sincerely. Healing prayers.

You really do need to try to stop being so judgmental. It's truly not good for your health. Leave me and all others in God's hands. He is holding me tight, as he always has. There is nothing to worry about.

[Libby]

Libby, let me ask you, do you believe in the lds version of outer darkness where the devil, the son of perdition and ex mormons (apostates like you and my wife) go?

No, I don't personally, believe there is any kind of hell, other than the hell of our own making. That is hell enough, don't you think?

[Libby]

I, sincerely, wish that someone would, at least, try to make their best case for why a loving and benevolent God would send "most" of his creation (his children, IMHO) to a fiery, burning, ETERNAL hell. Can anyone make sense of that? Are most of us really such horrible sinners that we deserve that kind of treatment....really??

Think about it.

[Billyray]

I, sincerely, wish that someone would, at least, try to make their best case for why a loving and benevolent God would send "most" of his creation (his children, IMHO) to a fiery, burning, ETERNAL hell. Can anyone make sense of that? Are most of us really such horrible sinners that we deserve that kind of treatment....really??



We have already Libby. Didn't you read any of the posts?

[ActRaiser]

I, sincerely, wish that someone would, at least, try to make their best case for why a loving and benevolent God would send "most" of his creation (his children, IMHO) to a fiery, burning, ETERNAL hell. Can anyone make sense of that? Are most of us really such horrible sinners that we deserve that kind of treatment....really??

Think about it.

Why should we think about something that's already been answered?

Those who break ONE of the commandments of God are guilty of breaking ALL Of them.

The answer to this dilemna came in the form of Jesus on the Cross, who rose from the dead three days later, because he needed to take the punishment on himself for the sins of the world in order to SAVE everyone who would believe in Him.

[Libby]

Okay, think about that, AR. Jesus on the cross for a limited amount of time, justifying ALL the sins of the world!

Juxtapose that against an ETERNAL punishment that is, at least, equivalent in pain...for the sins of ONE person.

How do you justify that?

Simply, "it's written in the book"?

[Billyray]

Okay, think about that, AR. Jesus on the cross for a limited amount of time, justifying ALL the sins of the world!

Juxtapose that against an ETERNAL punishment that is, at least, equivalent in pain...for the sins of ONE person.

How do you justify that?

Simply, "it's written in the book"?

They broke God's law and derserve punishment. Look at criminals who break the law--they break it over a short time and yet they often pay for their crime until they die.

[ActRaiser]

Okay, think about that, AR. Jesus on the cross for a limited amount of time, justifying ALL the sins of the world!

Juxtapose that against an ETERNAL punishment that is, at least, equivalent in pain...for the sins of ONE person.

How do you justify that?

Simply, "it's written in the book"?

Jesus didn't sin at ALL. That's the point. Jesus is God, was and will be God. He suffered a spiritual and utter seperation from Father God on the Cross and it wasn't his fault. He became our sacrifice, our Lamb that God provided, so he could Save us from being eternally punished in Hell for what we did, and also for the sins of not doing what we should have done.

So no, that's not punishment for the sins of One person. Jesus had no sins.

[Libby]

You are misunderstanding what I said.

Jesus died on the cross for the sins of the WORLD...and, yet, even that suffering, as great as it was, was not as horrible as what ONE PERSON is, supposedly, suppose to pay for whatever meager sins he has committed during his very short stay on this earth. There is an imbalance in that kind of justice, is what I am saying.

[ActRaiser]

You are misunderstanding what I said.

Jesus died on the cross for the sins of the WORLD...and, yet, even that was not as horrible as what ONE PERSON is, supposedly, suppose to pay for whatever meager sins he has committed. There is an imbalance in that kind of justice, is what I am saying.

The only reason why it isn't as horrible as what one person is supposed to pay for whatever "meager" sins he has committed, is because Jesus is God. (He proved this by the Father ressurecting himself from the dead) Jesus suffered the whole punishments for all sins on his person, both body and spirit, in a very long, painful moment, where God, his Father, turned from him and made him suffer for EVERYONE else, in order to show the world that he loves us enough to make his own Son suffer to prevent our own just punishment.

[Libby]

You are still not answering my question.

How is the huge discrepancy, between the two punishments, even close to "just"?

[ActRaiser]

You are still not answering my question.

How is the huge discrepancy, between the two punishments, even close to "just"?

I don't understand how it's unjust.

[Libby]

We have already Libby. Didn't you read any of the posts?

No, you haven't, Billy.

[Libby]

The creators of Wikipedia are the first to admit that not every entry is accurate and that it might not be the best source of material for research papers.

This particular article just happened to raise some questions that I have thought about on my own. I am not presenting it as an "authority" on anything. Just a jumping off place for discussion.

[ActRaiser]

No, you haven't, Billy.

Interesting. I don't understand how what God wants can be unjust.

[Libby]

The same reason that people who commit crimes that span a short period of time can spend their entire life in prison.

Okay, I missed this. That's something to think about. But, most of us don't commit such grievous sins....and even a lifetime in prison is not eternity. Eternity...I can't even comprehend...and can't imagine a crime big enough to warrant an "eternal" punishment. Plus, it's not just punishment (like being locked up in prison) but, "Torturous" punishment. A person is, supposedly, being tortured eternally. What kind of crime warrants that?

Not believing about God correctly? Really?

[ActRaiser]

Okay, I missed this. That's something to think about. But, most of us don't commit such grievous sins....and even a lifetime in prison is not eternity. Eternity...I can't even comprehend...and can't imagine a crime big enough to warrant an "eternal" punishment. Plus, it's not just punishment (like being locked up in prison) but, "Torturous" punishment. A person is, supposedly, being tortured eternally. What kind of crime warrants that? Not believing about God correctly? Really?

That's your problem. God is God. We are not. We are not eternal. We cannot comprehend God. But God comprehends us and what we need in order to comprehend what he wants us to.

[Libby]

Interesting. I don't understand how what God wants can be unjust.

If you believe in a just God, then he has to act like a just God.

I know some Christians don't like simple logic, but I can't seem to help myself. :)

[ActRaiser]

If you believe in a just God, then he has to act like a just God.

I know some Christians don't like simple logic, but I can't seem to help myself. :)

Simple logic? What's so hard about believing God is smarter than us? He knows what's just.

[Billyray]

If you believe in a just God, then he has to act like a just God.


And who determines what is a "just God" you?

[Libby]

That's your problem. God is God. We are not. We are not eternal. We cannot comprehend God. But God comprehends us and what we need in order to comprehend what he wants us to.

If we are not eternal, then how can we be punished eternally?

And, simply, stating that we cannot understand God is really not good enough. That's how people can judge and do things "in the name of God" that are, sometimes, horrendous.

[Libby]

And who determines what is a "just God" you?

I think I am required to make that judgment, yes, if I am going to believe and follow such a God. I am responsible for what I believe and promote, Billy....and so are you.

[ActRaiser]

If we are not eternal, then how can we be punished eternally?

And, simply, stating that we cannot understand God is really not good enough. That's how people can judge and do things "in the name of God" that are, sometimes, horrendous.

God "gives us" what we need to live forever.

Besides stating that God's word isn't what he said is a good way to give people one way tickets to Hell.

[Libby]

Simple logic? What's so hard about believing God is smarter than us? He knows what's just.

And, so do I. It's not really that difficult...or shouldn't be.

[Billyray]

And, so do I. It's not really that difficult...or shouldn't be.

Then why do you think that you can judge God and His justice?

[Libby]

Then why do you think that you can judge God and His justice?

I am not judging it, Billy...for the millionth time.

I don't see it as justice and I don't think anyone really could...including God.

[Billyray]

I am not judging it, Billy...for the millionth time.



If you believe in a just God, then he has to act like a just God.

Who determines what a just God should or should not do? You?

[Libby]

Who determines what a just God should or should not do? You?

If we are expected to worship and revere God, yes, certain things must make sense....otherwise, we are worshiping a devil in disguise.

Yes, we are responsible for what we believe and promote.

[Pa Pa]

What verses in the Bible about Hell do you interpret differently than me to lead to your your disbelief in Hell?

My theory about Hell is this...once someone thinks they have beat it, feel the need to pull up the ladder because the boat is full.

[Billyray]

Yes, we are responsible for what we believe and promote.

So you decide what God should or should not do and what is fair or unfair. I got it.

[Libby]

So you decide what God should or should not do and what is fair or unfair. I got it.

No, but I am responsible for my beliefs and what I promote. So are you.

[Billyray]

No, but I am responsible for my beliefs and what I promote. So are you.

So is God unfair to send a person--who does not come to Christ-- to hell?

[James Banta]

Okay, one step at a time. ***uming that we all deserve some kind of "punishment" for our sins, how do you justify an eternal punishment for sins committed during a very short period of time? How is that just?

Easy we all deserve complete and total ****ation.. Eternal separation from God, spiritual death.. IHS jim

[TheSword99]

I, sincerely, wish that someone would, at least, try to make their best case for why a loving and benevolent God would send "most" of his creation (his children, IMHO) to a fiery, burning, ETERNAL hell. Can anyone make sense of that? Are most of us really such horrible sinners that we deserve that kind of treatment....really??

Think about it.

Libby God doesn't "send" anyone anywhere. People who do not want God will get their wish which is eternal separation from God. Hell is everything God is not. I have heard people say they would rather be in hell with their friends then be with God. God gives everyone a choice. He will not force Himself on anyone who does not want Him. But God so loves the world that he offers heaven and salvation as a free gift. We only need accept this wonderful gift.

[Libby]

So is God unfair to send a person--who does not come to Christ-- to hell?

If hell really is some horrible eternal "torture"...yes.

[TheSword99]

Someone once said that God doesn't send anybody to Hell, because across the road to Hell he has placed the cross of Christ. So many people will not submit to a higher power. This is true of the lds. The idea of being gods in embryo, working towards a higher level of heaven and eventually being a god of one's own planet shows no reverence for God and certainly no submission if they believe they can achieve godhood.

Libby, Jesus said hell is real and he warned about it. I would rather give God the benefit of the doubt and believe it's a literal place, then to be wrong and find oneself there after death and eternally separated from God.

There's a p***age in Luke about a rich man who wakes up in hell. He begs Abraham to warn his brothers who are still alive on earth that hell is real. You can say it's just a story, but wouldn't you rather be on the side of caution and give Christ a chance?

[Libby]

Libby God doesn't "send" anyone anywhere. People who do not want God will get their wish which is eternal separation from God. Hell is everything God is not. I have heard people say they would rather be in hell with their friends then be with God. God gives everyone a choice. He will not force Himself on anyone who does not want Him. But God so loves the world that he offers heaven and salvation as a free gift. We only need accept this wonderful gift.

This I believe (I don't believe God sends anyone to hell). I don't believe the separation (which WE create) will be eternal. God is drawing all back to him.

"But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself."

[TheSword99]

If you believe in a just God, then he has to act like a just God.

I know some Christians don't like simple logic, but I can't seem to help myself. :)

Libby, God would be more unjust if he made us mindless robots with no free will and manipulated the strings. I believe that's why God no longer interacts with His people in the same way He did in the Old Testament. They repeatedly turned their backs on Him and God was gracious enough to give them what they wanted. It was God's intention to walk in the sun with man.

[Libby]

Libby, God would be more unjust if he made us mindless robots with no free will and manipulated the strings. I believe that's why God no longer interacts with His people in the same way He did in the Old Testament. They repeatedly turned their backs on Him and God was gracious enough to give them what they wanted. It was God's intention to walk in the sun with man.

Oh, I don't believe he made us mindless robots, at all. I wish more people really knew that. I also know that he has not deserted us.

One of the problems with mainstream is their low opinion of man. Not to say some people don't deserve that...some, by their actions, are quite depraved. But, your average, everyday person, who is just doing the best they can, is not deserving of such a low opinion (IMO). Certainly not so horrible that God would abandon us, altogether.

I know that God is readily accessible, anytime I turn my attention inward and towards him.

[TheSword99]

If everyone would just repent and acknowledge that they have violated God's holy Laws, then hell would be nearly empty except for satan and his minions. God desires that all men come to saving faith in Christ. But many will not. The choice is man's.

[Libby]

If everyone would just repent and acknowledge that they have violated God's holy Laws

Even without accepting Jesus as their Savior?

I think many people do this on a daily basis...and not just Christians.

[Billyray]

If hell really is some horrible eternal "torture"...yes.
And this is a prime example of how you judge God.

[Libby]

Well, since I don't believe God really created such a place, in which to torture people eternally, it is not a judgment of him.

[Billyray]

Well, since I don't believe God really created such a place, in which to torture people eternally, it is not a judgment of him.
Sure you have judged him--you judge God by saying that it is not fair for Him to send anyone to Hell.

[Libby]

That's not a judgment of God. It could only possibly be a judgment, if I believed God ACTUALLY did that...which I don't.

[Billyray]

That's not a judgment of God. It could only possibly be a judgment, if I believed God ACTUALLY did that...which I don't.
But the reason that you don't believe it is because you have judged that it is not something that God should do.

[Libby]

Fine, tell me why he would.

It's still not a judgment of GOD, unless I believed he did those things. It's a judgment of whatever man wrote that about God....or didn't, but was attributed to him, by someone alone the way.

[Billyray]

Fine, tell me why he would.

Because it is just. Just like it is just to punish criminals for the crime that they have done. If a judge let every single criminal go that would not be just and people would be quick to replace him or her.

[Libby]

Because it is just. Just like it is just to punish criminals for the crime that they have done. If a judge let every single criminal go that would not be just and people would be quick to replace him or her.

I have already told you why it is not just. It is not just to torture people for eternity, for the mostly trivial sins they commit in ONE SHORT lifetime. That is not just. And, if you think it is, you have a very warped sense of justice.

[Billyray]

It is not just to torture people for eternity, for the mostly trivial sins they commit in ONE SHORT lifetime. That is not just. And, if you think it is, you have a very warped sense of justice.

That is your opinion and you are trying to judge God saying that He is unjust by doing this based what you believe. I believe it is just.

[Libby]

That is your opinion and you are trying to judge God saying that He is unjust by doing this based what you believe. I believe it is just.

How exactly is it "just", Billy. Really, I would like to know how you justify calling eternal torture in a lake of fire, for sins committed in a short lifetime, "just".

I don't think you have a very good grasp of the eternal...nor of the reality of what you choose to believe.

[Billyray]

How exactly is it "just", Billy.

Because those who sin against God deserve punishment.

[Billyray]

I don't think you have a very good grasp of the eternal...
Eternal is "eternal". Right?

[Libby]

What a thoughtful answer. Defining a word using the word. lol

Perhaps, you can try to answer the question I actually posed. That would be unique.


Really, I would like to know how you justify calling eternal torture in a lake of fire, for sins committed in a short lifetime, "just".

[TheSword99]

I have already told you why it is not just. It is not just to torture people for eternity, for the mostly trivial sins they commit in ONE SHORT lifetime. That is not just. And, if you think it is, you have a very warped sense of justice.

Libby, there's no such thing as a trivial sin. Sin is sin and it's a violation of God's holy law. You don't seem to realize how holy God really is. He can't just condone sin. Just look the other way. His very being demands that He judge it. When *** accused God of being unfair God said His ways and thoughts are much higher than man's. We must be very careful that we don't accuse God of doing evil. It is not possible.

[James Banta]

Not an attack. Just an observation. You know, like the "observations" you make about me, all the time. ;)

Ok then GET OFF ME ABOUT ATTACKING MORMONISM! After all they are just observation.. You know I never claimed to make observations, I attack error.. I ATTACK mormonism.. I have attacked mormons yes and I for one have Turned (repented) of that and apologized for doing so.. BUT I will NOT apologize for the attacks I have made against the lies of Joseph Smith that the world calls mormonism.. You may of course continue to attack me.. I expect that from all the unsaved. I will continue to contend for my faith (Jude 1:3) against any and all they accept lies in the place of the gospel of Jesus.. IHS jim

[ActRaiser]

Ok then GET OFF ME ABOUT ATTACKING THE MORMONS! After all they are just observation.. You know I never claimed to make observations, I attack error.. I ATTACK mormonism.. I have attacked mormons yes and I for one have Turned (repented) of that and apologized for doing so.. BUT I will NOT apologize for the attacks I have made against the lies of Joseph Smith that the world calls mormonism.. IHS jim

Good. Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. As you just said now, you slipped up, but that doesn't mean you have to change positions just because you presented your'self a little roughly.

[Billyray]

Perhaps, you can try to answer the question I actually posed. That would be unique.

Libby I have already answered your question multiple times now. Here it is again for you.

People who break God's law deserve punishment.

[James Banta]

I honestly don't understand what in the world you're trying to say, here.

At any rate, I don't believe that "Jesus is totally unnecessary". Far from it.

Ok let me try to make it clearer.. You seem to believe that all of the Bible is the very word of God.. That means you are excused from parts of it, they being the teachings of men.. When I see people saying such things it causes me to believe that the parts of the Bible that are hard for then to obey, the parts they see as too restrictive of their own desires are the parts of the Bible they put in the column of the teachings of men.. So what parts of the Bible are in that column for you?

Totally unnecessary? If He isn't the ONLY WAY, the ONLY TRUTH, the ONLY LIGHT, and the ONLY GOD then He is Totally unnecessary! Because if He isn't these things then there is other ways, other truths, other lights, and other Gods.. Isn't that your most resent doctrines? IHS jim

[James Banta]

We are all aware of the verses in the Bible that talk about hell, James.

This article from Wiki is a philosophical approach, which is more or less what I have used to come to some of my own conclusions about hell. You know logic...using your brain to engage some of these questions? You guys love to throw that around, when you're talking about Mormonism. Not so much, when it's your favorite beliefs and theories being thrown under the bus.

I don't see agreement between what Wikipedia has to say and what the Bible teaches. You may disagree with what the Bible teaches but IT NOT SOME INTERNET encyclopedia that admits that it is NOT reliable has the last word as to being the final authority.. And what do I hear you saying about the Bible (My favorite beliefs)? Throw them under the bus.. IHS jim

[James Banta]

I trust God.

I don't always trust what man has said about God.

If all you can tell me is that I just need to believe the Bible exactly as interpreted by mainstream Christianity, then you really have nothing new to say to me. Been there, done that. My God is not a some horrible creature who destroys most of his creation in the name of some kind of bogus justice, which isn't justice at all (if you really engage your brain and think about it).

The justice of God as revealed through His word is now "Bogus".. I guess that tells us how fall you have come down to insult the Lord of all creation.. It's no longer up to Him to determine what He saves and what He destroys it's now your choice? When did you become God? IHS jim

[Libby]

Libby I have already answered your question multiple times now. Here it is again for you.

People who break God's law deserve punishment.

That doesn't answer the question posed about the inequity between the crime and the punishment. THAT is what I am asking about...NOT whether or not we deserve punishment.

So, no, you have not answered the question I asked.

[Libby]

James, until you can make your posts about the subject and not about ME, you are on ignore.

[ActRaiser]

That doesn't answer the question posed about the inequity between the crime and the punishment. THAT is what I am asking about...NOT whether or not we deserve punishment.

So, no, you have not answered the question I asked.

Think about what I said earlier.
He who offends the Law in one way breaks the Law in every way. This is shown both in the laws of the Ten Commandments and the New Testament.

Thus, why shouldn't we conclude that Hell is eternal punishment?

[Billyray]

That doesn't answer the question posed about the inequity between the crime and the punishment. THAT is what I am asking about...NOT whether or not we deserve punishment.


I don't feel that there is "inequity between the crime and the punishment". We just have differences of opinion.

[Libby]

Think about what I said earlier.
He who offends the Law in one way breaks the Law in every way. This is shown both in the laws of the Ten Commandments and the New Testament.

Thus, why shouldn't we conclude that Hell is eternal punishment?

Even if that were so (breaking the whole law), how in the world does breaking commandments in this short lifetime deserve a whole eternity of (not just punishment) but pure torture?! What kind of "god" would allow that? Don't you think that kind of perceived justice smacks a quite a lot of MAN's own vengeance? I sure do...especially bronze age men.

Sorry, but that is too far removed from any inkling of justice to be realistic.

[ActRaiser]

Even if that were so (breaking the whole law), how in the world does breaking commandments in this short lifetime deserve a whole eternity of (not just punishment) but pure torture. What kind of "god" would allow that? Don't think that kind of perceived justice smacks a quite a lot of MAN's own vengeance? I sure do...especially bronze age men.

Sorry, but that is too far removed from any inkling of justice to be realistic.

Well then we have a difference of opinion.

[Billyray]

Even if that were so (breaking the whole law), how in the world does breaking commandments in this short lifetime deserve a whole eternity of (not just punishment) but pure torture.

Because they broke the law and deserve punishment. In your opinion you disagee but it is your opinion. Why is your opinion right and my opinion wrong?

[Billyray]

What kind of "god" would allow that?

There you go again Libby judging God based on what YOU think is fair.

[ActRaiser]

Because they broke the law and deserve punishment. In your opinion you disagee but it is your opinion. Why is your opinion right and my opinion wrong?

She said earlier that she disagrees with the parts of the Bible that "insult her soul". I take that to mean she finds the word of God offensive.

[Libby]

Because they broke the law and deserve punishment. In your opinion you disagee but it is your opinion. Why is your opinion right and my opinion wrong?

I have never said that I disagree with the idea that they deserve punishment. That's just where you want to keep the conversation, because you don't want to deal with the inequity part. That's fine. I totally understand that you don't want to rock that boat. Been there.

[Libby]

She said earlier that she disagrees with the parts of the Bible that "insult her soul". I take that to mean she finds the word of God offensive.

Not at all. At least, not in the broad way you have just described. I find much of the Bible very edifying and comforting.

[ActRaiser]

I have never said that I disagree with the idea that they deserve punishment. That's just where you want to keep the conversation, because you don't want to deal with the inequity part. That's fine. I totally understand that you don't want to rock that boat. Been there.

Here, see this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCSUKIhjevo

[Libby]

There you go again Libby judging God based on what YOU think is fair.

Explain to me how it could conceivably be fair.

[Libby]

Here, see this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCSUKIhjevo

I've seen that, before...a few times. It doesn't explain the inequity of an eternal, torturous hell. Not even close.

[ActRaiser]

I've seen that, before...a few times. It doesn't explain the inequity of an eternal, torturous hell. Not even close.

Just making sure you would know where I'm coming from. I think it does.

[Billyray]

Explain to me how it could conceivably be fair.

Because they broke God's law. Isn't it just to punish those who break the law?

[Libby]

Just making sure you would know where I'm coming from. I think it does.

Really?

So, you think that breaking a few commandments (or even all of them), in one, relatively, short lifetime, warrants ETERNAL TORTURE in some Lake of Fire????

That sounds like justice to you??

[ActRaiser]

I've seen that, before...a few times. It doesn't explain the inequity of an eternal, torturous hell. Not even close.

Let's see. Think about it like this. Do you believe there are commandments that aren't listed in the Bible?

[Billyray]

So, you think that breaking a few commandments (or even all of them), in one, relatively, short lifetime, warrants ETERNAL TORTURE in some Lake of Fire????

That sounds like justice to you??
Absolutely.

[Libby]

Because they broke God's law. Isn't it just to punish those who break the law?

Again, you are focusing on the crime, but not the INEQUITY of the punishment.

[Libby]

Absolutely.

Okey dokey.

:rolleyes:

[Billyray]

Again, you are focusing on the crime, but not the INEQUITY of the punishment.

No I am focusing on both and I feel that it is the just thing to do.

[ActRaiser]

Again, you are focusing on the crime, but not the INEQUITY of the punishment.

Just please answer the question, do you believe that there are transgressions in life you can commit that aren't listed in the Bible?

[Billyray]

Okey dokey.


Do you feel that the punishment for crimes committed in Middle Eastern countries are fair?

[Libby]

Do you feel that the punishment for crimes committed in Middle Eastern countries are fair?

Not at all.

Do YOU??

[ActRaiser]

Not at all.

Do YOU??

Am I on ignore too?

[Libby]

Just please answer the question, do you believe that there are transgressions in life you can commit that aren't listed in the Bible?

That are not listed in the Bible? Probably, yes. This is quite a different world, today, than the one in the Bible. But, I would say all of the basics are probably listed in the Bible (including many things that are not really considered sinful today).

[Libby]

Am I on ignore too?

No, I'm just slow. Doing other things, like getting a cup of tea. :)

[Billyray]

Not at all.

Do YOU??

It is their decision what is fair and what is not. Right? We all have a difference in opinion of what is or is not fair.

[ActRaiser]

That are not listed in the Bible? Probably, yes. This is quite a different world, today, than the one in the Bible. But, I would say all of the basics are probably listed in the Bible (including many things that are not really considered sinful today).

Okay. The Bible says that if you break one commandment, you are guilty by proxy of breaking THEM ALL.

Okay. . . so what you're doing is breaking all commandments that there are.

Not just those listed.

If God had to list everything that was morally wrong, we wouldn't have enough pages in the whole world to make another book for it. It would take entire forests from other planets to do that.

[Libby]

It is their decision what is fair and what is not.

It's their decision, but that doesn't mean they have a perfect sense of justice. The punishments they have, for "crimes", very much reminds me of the hell conjured up by their bronze age ancestors.

[Billyray]

It's their decision, but that doesn't mean they have a perfect sense of justice. The punishments they have, for "crimes", very much reminds me of the hell conjured up by their bronze age ancestors.
The point that I am trying to make is that each person has a different ***essment of what is fair. So you are judging God by your own personal standard of what is fair and the next guy could do the same thing which would be a completely different ***essment. Bottom line it is simply our own opinion. But God is God and he is our creator and he is the determiner of what is fair and just--not us.

[Libby]

Okay. The Bible says that if you break one commandment, you are guilty by proxy of breaking THEM ALL.

Okay. . . so what you're doing is breaking all commandments that there are.

Not just those listed.

If God had to list everything that was morally wrong, we wouldn't have enough pages in the whole world to make another book for it. It would take entire forests from other planets to do that.

Yes, I know this, although, I don't have quite the low opinion of man that you seem to. I figure most of your "sins" could be listed on a page or two. Mine could go on half a page. ;) (that was a JOKE, in case anyone has a mind to take it seriously!). Not joking about the page or two for your sins, though. If you can honestly come up with more than that, let me know. And, I don't mean "everytime you have sinned", but the different kinds of sins.

I think most of us do the best we can, making many mistakes along the way. But, hopefully, we learn from our mistakes and continue trying to do the best we can do. That is how I view most people.

[Billyray]

It's their decision, but that doesn't mean they have a perfect sense of justice. The punishments they have, for "crimes", very much reminds me of the hell conjured up by their bronze age ancestors.
Libby there is a simple solution for your problem and that is to accept Christ and it won't be an issue for you.

[Libby]

Libby there is a simple solution for your problem and that is to accept Christ and it won't be an issue for you.

Oh, I accept Christ. I just don't accept an inerrant Bible.

[ActRaiser]

Oh, I accept Christ. I just don't accept an inerrant Bible.

If you don't accept Jesus, the Messiah, as the one way to get to God, you can't go to Heaven.

If you accepted Christ, the way he intended, then you need to accept the word he has given you.

[Libby]

If you don't accept Jesus, the Messiah, as the one way to get to God, you can't go to Heaven.

If you accepted Christ, the way he intended, then you need to accept the word he has given you.

Well, I acknowledge that as your opinion.

We will have to agree to disagree about that.

[Billyray]

We will have to agree to disagree about that.

Just like we disagree about fairness and justice.

[ActRaiser]

Well, I acknowledge that as your opinion.

We will have to agree to disagree about that.

alright. We can agree to disagree.

[Libby]

Just like we disagree about fairness and justice.

Apparently, MAJORLY.

It still boggles my mind that anyone could find justice in that kind of hell. Few people believe that, anymore, Billy, even a lot of Christians.

[Billyray]

It still boggles my mind that anyone could find justice in that kind of hell. Few people believe that, anymore, Billy, even a lot of Christians.

We all have different opinions about justice and mercy. But what matters is not our opinion but what God has to say about it. He is the one who is our creator and we are his creation and He is the one who decides what is or is not fair. You can complain all day long about it and judge God for being unfair but that won't change matters one iota. This is not unlike the fact that if you go to a Middle Eastern country--you may have a difference of opinion about their laws and punishments but you are still bound by those laws and punishments reguardless of your personal opinions.

[Libby]

But what matters is not our opinion but what God has to say about it.

I totally agree, which is why I am going with what God has revealed to me.

As for other countries, you may be bound by their laws, but that doesn't make them just....so, your comparison is bogus.

[Billyray]

I totally agree, which is why I am going with what God has revealed to me.


Libby the HS would not tell you that the Bible is false that was either your own personal opinion or a deceiving spirit.

[Libby]

Libby the HS would not tell you that the Bible is false that was either your own personal opinion or a deceiving spirit.

That's not the message I received, Billy, so no worries.

[Billyray]

That's not the message I received, Billy, so no worries.

If someone is deceived will they know that they are deceived?

[TheSword99]

Oh, I accept Christ. I just don't accept an inerrant Bible.


Libby, if God were to ask you why He should let you into heaven, how would you answer?

[TheSword99]

Oh, I accept Christ. I just don't accept an inerrant Bible.



John 1: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made...

And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.


Jesus is the very living Word. We cannot accept Christ and disregard the Holy Scriptures. Libby, you have been taught that the bible is corrupt and you have continued to believe it. That is how false religions are dangerous. The Holy Bible testifies of Christ. Which parts are you going to toss out?

[James Banta]

James, until you can make your posts about the subject and not about ME, you are on ignore.

Does being on Libby's ignore list hurt me? NOPE.. I can still post you just won't be able to see what I am saying.. How is a response to you that you say who is saved and who isn't inspite of what God has already told us about you.. You surely have one heck of a high opinion about yourself.. IHS jim

[James Banta]

Even without accepting Jesus as their Savior?

I think many people do this on a daily basis...and not just Christians.

Libby said she has me on ignore so maybe you can share with her that she again has a problem of doctrine in what she is thinking here, or not thinking which would be closer to the truth..

How can anyone be forgiven without evidence that the sin has been paid for? Without the eternal sacrifice of the Blood of Jesus there is no remission. Without holding Faith in Him there is no grace, Without grace there is no salvation.. Lobby has it wrong again! Without Jesus as out personal savior we will suffer for our own sins in the Lake of Fire.. That us eternal DEATH, Spiritual death.. IHS jim

[Libby]

Libby, if God where to ask you why He should let you into heaven, how would you answer?

Okay, the Christians here are big on saying that we don't "earn" our way into heaven, right? I don't believe we "earn" our way back to God, either. I believe all that is really required is a great desire to be with him. I want to spend eternity with God...that is why (I believe) God will have me...because HE wants that, as well...even more than I do.

[Libby]

John 1: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made...

And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.


Jesus is the very living Word. We cannot accept Christ and disregard the Holy Scriptures. Libby, you have been taught that the bible is corrupt and you have continued to believe it. That is how false religions are dangerous. The Holy Bible testifies of Christ. Which parts are you going to toss out?

Well, I certainly don't toss out the parts that testify of Christ.

What I disregard are the parts which I believe are mistakenly attributed to God....but not truly of God. Either mistakenly attributed or in some cases (like the issue of hell) misinterpreted by some.

[Libby]

TS, you do realize that there are a lot of Christians who do not accept an inerrant Bible...right?

[TheSword99]

TS, you do realize that there are a lot of Christians who do not accept an inerrant Bible...right?

I really don't care what liberal pastors and laypeople believe. They do not represent true Christianity. Liberal colleges with their liberal professors are spewing out liberal ministers who will not preach about hell and some of the other essential doctrines that the early Christians had always believed in. God's faithful remnant know that God has preserved His word just as He promised he would.

In Jesus' time most of the Jews did not believe he was the Messiah. All he had on his side was a small motley crew. So it doesn't matter what a lot of people believe. God did say the road to eternal life was narrow and only a few will find it.

Then there was Noah who warned the people for years and nobody believed. What happened to all of them?

[Libby]

I really don't care what liberal pastors and laypeople believe. They do not represent true Christianity.

I see.

That seems to end the conversation. My way or the highway statements tend to do that.

[TheSword99]

I see.

That seems to end the conversation. My way or the highway statements tend to do that.


Libby, you can talk about liberal christians all you want. This site gives you the liberty. But this is the Mormonism category. You seem to prefer pointing out what you think is faulty about Christians, but mormons can do no wrong in your eyes.

I don't believe in compromising my faith. Liberal christians have sold out. They are wishy washy and Christ warned in Rev. about those who are lukewarm.

[TheSword99]

Okay, the Christians here are big on saying that we don't "earn" our way into heaven, right? I don't believe we "earn" our way back to God, either. I believe all that is really required is a great desire to be with him. I want to spend eternity with God...that is why (I believe) God will have me...because HE wants that, as well...even more than I do.


Libby, with all due respect, you have said that you are a Hindu Christian even though they are mutually exclusive. God said there are no other deities and that he will not share his glory with another whether it be pagan gods, gods of wood, stone, or anything else. God said we cannot serve two masters. Hinduism teaches multiple "supreme beings", so therefore, your loyalty isn't solely towards God our Heavenly Father.

What God wants is for you to come to saving faith. To accept Christ alone for your salvation.

[James Banta]

Well, thank you for your prayers, James. You are in mine, as well...sincerely. Healing prayers.

You really do need to try to stop being so judgmental. It's truly not good for your health. Leave me and all others in God's hands. He is holding me tight, as he always has. There is nothing to worry about.

I am worried about you Libby.. You have cast away your first love and now worship many gods who are no gods.. You have listened to the thoughts and logic of men and turned away from the word of God as not being His inspired message to mankind.. Until you cast off these other gods these doctrines of men and turn to Jesus and Him only I will worry and fear for your eternal destiny.. My heath issues are nothing to worry about because I rest in the grace of my Lord.. If I live I live for Jesus, if I die I gain my eternal reward.. I can't lose, you on the other hand can lose and lose big.. IHS jim

[James Banta]

My theory about Hell is this...once someone thinks they have beat it, feel the need to pull up the ladder because the boat is full.

What section of the Bible is that lie based? IHS jim

[Libby]

Libby, you can talk about liberal christians all you want. This site gives you the liberty. But this is the Mormonism category. You seem to prefer pointing out what you think is faulty about Christians, but mormons can do no wrong in your eyes.

I don't believe in compromising my faith. Liberal christians have sold out. They are wishy washy and Christ warned in Rev. about those who are lukewarm.

Quite to the contrary, they are going to be Christianity's saving grace.

And, TS, Hindus do not worship multiple gods. There is only One God.


If you ever visited a Hindu temple, it is not uncommon to see icons of several Gods and Goddesses. This, to a non-Hindu, apparently seems to confirm the often-quoted saying that "Hindus worship many Gods"

Hindus do not worship many Gods -- they worship just one God but in several forms.
http://www.indystar.com/article/20120811/LIFE04/208110323/In-Hinduism-there-just-one-God-many-forms

[TheSword99]

Quite to the contrary, they are going to be Christianity's saving grace.

And, TS, Hindus do not worship multiple gods. There is only One God.


http://www.indystar.com/article/20120811/LIFE04/208110323/In-Hinduism-there-just-one-God-many-forms

But the Hindu god is not the God of the Bible.

[Libby]

But the Hindu god is not the God of the Bible.

I believe he is....and the God of Buddhism and Islam and Taoism, etc. There is only One God...but, many ways of understanding and worshiping him.

[TheSword99]

Quite to the contrary, they are going to be Christianity's saving grace.




Do you believe it's liberal Christians that will lead us all back to God and not the lds church?

[James Banta]

Quite to the contrary, they are going to be Christianity's saving grace.

And, TS, Hindus do not worship multiple gods. There is only One God.


http://www.indystar.com/article/20120811/LIFE04/208110323/In-Hinduism-there-just-one-God-many-forms

Oh yes they believe in only one God.. Libby why say things like this when it;s so easy to find out the truth?

http://www.sanatansociety.org/hindu_gods_and_goddesses.htm.. Even in the site you quoted I see it saying "To accommodate a wide spectrum of the population, Hindus are offered the choice of worshipping their favorite God or Ishta Devata, one of several Gods". Their demand that they wordship one God is drowened out when they speak of their "favorite God", who is one of "several Gods". You should read as much of the article as you cn before you make such wild claims.. IHS jim

[TheSword99]

I believe he is....and the God of Buddhism and Islam and Taoism, etc. There is only One God...but, many ways of understanding and worshiping him.

The God of Christians and Jews is nothing like Allah. The Quran is unlike the Holy Scriptures. Since they both disagree then they both can't be right.

In the Quran it says that Allah deceived both Christians and Jews into thinking that Jesus was crucified when in fact "it was so made to appear unto them", seeing that he never was crucified or killed. S. 4:157 (Muslims deny Christ was crucified.) Actually it would be more accurate to say that different groups have their own version of God, but there is only one God, the God of the Holy Bible.


Anyway, this is a topic that belongs in another category.

[Libby]

I don't really look at spiritual beliefs from a religious point of view. More from a philosophical POV.

All people are trying to reconnect with God. To whatever extent your religion can help you do that (doesn't matter what religion), it is useful.

[Libby]

Do you believe it's liberal Christians that will lead us all back to God and not the lds church?

No. Great teachers, like Jesus, will lead us back to God.

[Billyray]

No. Great teachers, like Jesus, will lead us back to God.

And Jesus and his apostles have given us his teachings in the NT yet you reject parts of what he has given us.

[Libby]

Let's not get on that merry-go-round, Billy.

I don't reject anything that the spirit tells me is from God.

[Billyray]

I don't reject anything that the spirit tells me is from God.

The question is what kind of spirit are you listening to?

[Billyray]

I don't reject anything that the spirit tells me is from God.
Yet you reject what Jesus and the apostles have given you.

And Jesus and his apostles have given us his teachings in the NT yet you reject parts of what he has given us.

[Libby]

The question is what kind of spirit are you listening to?

Ah, the critics talking point, about evil spirits.

I listen to the Holy Spirit.

[Billyray]

Ah, the critics talking point, about evil spirits.

I listen to the Holy Spirit.
I believe you that you listen to a spirit but this a guiding spirit not the Holy Spirit because the Holy Spirit would not be teaching you all of these false doctrine and the basis for you to reject large sections of the Bible.

[Libby]

I'm not going to argue with you about it. You won't believe anything that is not within your own spiritual frame of reference. That's fine.

[James Banta]

I'm not going to argue with you about it. You won't believe anything that is not within your own spiritual frame of reference. That's fine.

Block Him Libby.. Soon you wont be posting here at all because you won't see anyone but the mormons, and you agree with them so no need to try to correct them is there?

Your correction is GREAT. It's never based in the Bible. It's always based on the teaching of men.. I am happy to see that you recognize that we have a spiritual reference.. I don't see that you have one.. Could you explain what it might be? Would be wonderful if you had some reference that has some authority for you life other then your own feelings.. Please let us in on your spiritual imperatives.. What I think you have is just how you feel at the moment and that changes like the waves of the sea.. IHS jim

[Billyray]

I'm not going to argue with you about it. You won't believe anything that is not within your own spiritual frame of reference. That's fine.

It is not just me Libby you are arguing against what the Bible teaches.

[RealFakeHair]

There was this young seminary freshman when upon returning home from his first semester he went straight away to visit his pastor, and told him. "Pastor, when upon entering college the first thing I learned was, there is no Hell." The old country preacher snapped back with his reply." THE HELL THERE AINT!":mad:

[Libby]

:)

I agree, we can create the worst hell imaginable (literally) all on our own.

[Billyray]

:)

I agree, we can create the worst hell imaginable (literally) all on our own.

But the Bible isn't speaking about creating your own hell when speaking about hell. You can preach your false heretical doctrine but nobody here is buying it.

[James Banta]

:)

I agree, we can create the worst hell imaginable (literally) all on our own.

There you go using imagination again when God has provided us with His picture of the Hell that awaits all who deny Him.. Is there anything that you won't conjure put of your own imagination that God hasn't already explained clearly? IHS jim

[alanmolstad]

The only real thing we need to think over is "What does the bible say about Hell?"

Now I have no doubt at all that lots and lots of people don't like the very idea of hell.
I have no doubt that if we put it to a vote that most people would vote to get rid of hell.

But its not really a question left up to our personal views, rather its a question that we must address with scripture.

For it is when we open the scriptures that we find the real truth, a truth that is free of our human-preconceptions of what is moral and just.

So what do the scriptures teach us about Hell?
They teach that its real......very, very real.

They teach that the suffering of hell is also very, very real.
They teach that hell is unending...
everlasting,
and unquenchable.

It is said that Jesus spoke as much about Hell as he did any other topic....and this is normal and to be expected when you consider it was the punishment of Hell's flame that he came to save humanity from.

Many people against the idea of a hell have really no clue why Jesus came to the earth in the first place.
So let me address that issue right now-

Jesus did not come here to teach us a new nice way to live.
Jesus did not come here to show us how to be kind to each other and live in peace.
Jesus did not come here to teach us a moral code about respect and love.

no......
The truth is that Jesus came here to sacrifice himself and thereby become the one path we will ever be offered to take that gets us out of the eternally burning fire of Hell.


If hell was not as bad as is spoken of in the bible, Jesus would not have needed to show up personally.

[alanmolstad]

The only real thing we need to think over is "What does the bible say about Hell?"

Now I have no doubt at all that lots and lots of people don't like the very idea of hell.
I have no doubt that if we put it to a vote that most people would vote to get rid of hell.

But its not really a question left up to our personal views, rather its a question that we must address with scripture.

For it is when we open the scriptures that we find the real truth, a truth that is free of our human-preconceptions of what is moral and just.

So what do the scriptures teach us about Hell?
They teach that its real......very, very real.

They teach that the suffering of hell is also very, very real.
They teach that hell is unending...
everlasting,
and unquenchable.

It is said that Jesus spoke as much about Hell as he did any other topic....and this is normal and to be expected when you consider it was the punishment of Hell's flame that he came to save humanity from.

Many people against the idea of a hell have really no clue why Jesus came to the earth in the first place.
So let me address that issue right now-

Jesus did not come here to teach us a new nice way to live.
Jesus did not come here to show us how to be kind to each other and live in peace.
Jesus did not come here to teach us a moral code about respect and love.

no......
The truth is that Jesus came here to sacrifice himself and thereby become the one path we will ever be offered to take that gets us out of the eternally burning fire of Hell.


If hell was not as bad as is spoken of in the bible, Jesus would not have needed to show up personally.


I went over my post above, and although it was writen by myself a while ago...it yet still contains my views on the matter of "Hell"

[alanmolstad]

I found this Wiki- article on the Philosophy of Religion that brings up many points, about hell, that I have pondered...and a big reason why I reject the concept of hell, as presented by most conservative Christians.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Problem_of_Hellwe and all our human logic makes a strong case against there being a "HELL"...

and thus the need for Christ to show up in person, for if we were left to our own we never would think hell is all that big of a deal...

But God knows its very real.....and worth His own blood to provide way from it's flame....

[The Pheonix]

I found this Wiki- article on the Philosophy of Religion that brings up many points, about hell, that I have pondered...and a big reason why I reject the concept of hell, as presented by most conservative Christians.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Problem_of_HellIf there is a lake of fire...fire purifies. What is the point of an endless hell, punishment is meant to teach. So I agree with you, if hell is endless it is nothing but vengeance.

[TheSword99]

I found this Wiki- article on the Philosophy of Religion that brings up many points, about hell, that I have pondered...and a big reason why I reject the concept of hell, as presented by most conservative Christians.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Problem_of_Hell


Most unbelievers reject hell as cruel. They claim it is inconsistent with a just, moral God. This is because unbelievers are blinded by the devil. God's very moral character demands that He judge sin or he wouldn't be true to Himself. People all have a free will and they freely choose whether they want to spend eternity with God or not. God sends no one to hell. Hell is cruel because it consists of the absence of God. God is light, therefore, hell is darkness. God is love, therefore, hell has no love. Who are we to say that God could have prevented such a place as hell. None of us have the mind of God. If you don't want to go there, then Give Jesus a chance.

[jdjhere]

Man. I have not been here for awhile and have a lot to say but I will keep it short. This is the way I look at it Libby. If we sin, we are guilty of ALL sins. You can believe that or not, depending on what you want to believe from the Bible. That means to me that if I am guilty of ALL sins then God will see me as guilty for ALL of them....murder... child molestation... stealing... ALL sins, so NO ONE has trivial sins- we are, in Gods eyes, guilty of ALL of them. There are NONE righteous. The ONLY way to be forgiven is by the shedding of blood (as in the OT) as a subs***ute, or covering, of our sins. That did not change in the NT except through Christ's BLOOD we are forgiven of sin, as a subs***ute in OUR place. Jesus Christ did this... the SINLESS One.....not Krishna, not Buddah... not Mohammed- Jesus. This is why He is UNIQUE and is the ONLY One to ever be raised from the dead. This means something and shows He is unique. And I am telling you right now He loves you as much as anyone here. For Him to voluntarily give up His life and to die the way He did (the Just for the unjust and to reconcile us to God) can you explain to us why, in detail, Jesus came and died? I would like to see why you think He did that. Thanks.

[The Pheonix]

Man. I have not been here for awhile and have a lot to say but I will keep it short. This is the way I look at it Libby. If we sin, we are guilty of ALL sins. You can believe that or not, depending on what you want to believe from the Bible. That means to me that if I am guilty of ALL sins then God will judge me for ALL of them....murder... child molestation... stealing... ALL sins, so NO ONE has trivial sins- we are guilty of ALL of them. There are NONE righteous. The ONLY way to be forgiven is by the shedding of blood (as in the OT) as a subs***ute, or covering, of our sins. That did not change in the NT except through Christ's BLOOD we are forgiven of sin, as a subs***ute in OUR place. Jesus Christ did this... the SINLESS One.....not Krishna, not Buddah... not Mohammed- Jesus. This is why He is UNIQUE and is the ONLY One to ever be raised from the dead. This means something and shows He is unique. And I am telling you right now He loves you as much as anyone here. For Him to voluntarily give up His life and to die the way He did (the Just for the unjust and to reconcile us to God) can you explain to us why, in detail, Jesus came and died? I would like to see why you think He did that. Thanks.We are not guilty of all sin, by committing one. If you are implying that by committed one sin we are all guilty of adultery, murder and so on you are a train running off the rails, and I pray (if that is what you are suggesting) that you never post anything anywhere again, for you offend all.

[jdjhere]

James 2:10 "For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it."

I do not mean to offend anybody, Phoenix, so if I have personally offended you I sincerely apologize. I will NOT apologize for James 2:10, however. Perhaps my interpretation of it is incorrect?

What does the above verse say to you, Phoenix? Can you explain what that verse means to you? Thank you.

By the way, the Pheonix, I am a non-denominational Christian. Would you care to share what denomination or belief system you follow? Thank you.

Never Mind. I read some more of your posts and see you are LDS.

[jdjhere]

I think the mistake I made in the above post was that I did not clarify that we are not JUDGED for something we did not do but we are guilty of all if we sin because God is HOLY and even the tiniest sin makes us just like we are guilty of all because God CANNOT countenance sin and accept us with this sin. There are NONE righteous and that is why Jesus Christ died for me. I am not worthy and never could be except through Christs blood that washes me. In other words, I am a crud that God loves enough to die for me. I am forever thankful beyond words for this.

[Phoenix]

I don't think that a baby who dies one second after being born is guilty of adultery, murder, bearing false witness, coveting, or dishonoring its father and mother. Etc.

[RealFakeHair]

[QUOTE=Phoenix;159837]I don't think that a baby who dies one second after being born is guilty of adultery, murder, bearing false witness, coveting, or dishonoring its father and mother. Etc.[/QUOTE
We are all guilty of sin, we are born is sin, and we die in sin. Holy those who was washed in the Blood of Jesus Christ have their sins covered by his blood and thus are (pardon)

[jdjhere]

Phoenix stated in post #188: "I don't think that a baby who dies one second after being born is guilty of adultery, murder, bearing false witness, coveting, or dishonoring its father and mother. etc."

I don't ever remember saying anything about one second old babies? Jesus Christ said to let the little children come unto Him and that we had to be like them to enter Heaven so I give some leeway in this area. It is Gods creation and He can do what He sees fit to do. Whatever He does will be fair and right and just. I leave things that are not totally clear from Scripture up to God to take care of. Babies can not choose to sin until they know right from wrong so God will do what He will do since the Bible teaches we are born into sin and there are none righteous. Adults that can choose to follow certain paths and willfully follow them will be judged on those paths and choices. If your path does not lead you to who the true Son of God is then you will be judged accordingly. There are false Christs and there is "another" Jesus and "another" gospel which leads people astray, but if you find the true Jesus and believe in what He did for you through His crucifixion and His Blood being shed FOR you for forgiveness of your sins, and that He was raised from the dead, you WILL be saved. For the people that have the wrong Jesus He will say "Away from me. I never knew you."

[Phoenix]

I don't ever remember saying anything about one second old babies?
You said:

" There are NONE righteous"

and I ***ume you also would be prone to quote "All have sinned"

and I didn't see you allow for any exceptions. If you actually do allow for exceptions to the rule, then I apologize for ***uming that you interpret those proof texts literally and without exception.

What do you think of Fake Hair's response to my post as it applies to babies who die right after they are born?

"We are all guilty of sin, we are born is sin, and we die in sin. Holy (only) those who was washed in the Blood of Jesus Christ have their sins covered by his blood and thus are (pardon)"

[alanmolstad]

seems to me that I have already dealt with the topic of little kids that die......

[jdjhere]

Phoenix- I allow charity to RealFakeHair to believe what he believes on the things that, to me, are not totally clear and on the subjects I have no control over, like a one second old baby dying. I can not tell a baby that is one second old about Jesus's sacrifice on the cross and what He did for that baby. Whatever happens to that baby is in Christ's hands and I leave that up to Him. RealFakeHair's use of Scripture MAY be correct but their are other opinions from other Scriptures on this. It is Gods creation and He can do with it what He sees fit so I don't worry about babies... I leave them in God's hands... but lets not get sidetracked because I CAN warn YOU about certain things since you are an adult with understanding and responsibility to follow the ONLY person who can wash your stains away, ALL of them. By the way, what does your church teach about babies?

[RealFakeHair]

Phoenix- I allow charity to RealFakeHair to believe what he believes on the things that, to me, are not totally clear and on the subjects I have no control over, like a one second old baby dying. I can not tell a baby that is one second old about Jesus's sacrifice on the cross and what He did for that baby. Whatever happens to that baby is in Christ's hands and I leave that up to Him. RealFakeHair's use of Scripture MAY be correct but their are other opinions from other Scriptures on this. It is Gods creation and He can do with it what He sees fit so I don't worry about babies... I leave them in God's hands... but lets not get sidetracked because I CAN warn YOU about certain things since you are an adult with understanding and responsibility to follow the ONLY person who can wash your stains away, ALL of them. By the way, what does your church teach about babies?

What the heck? Remember don't rock the cradle. Oh, and remember this, only my opinion counts when it come to all things about me.

[jdjhere]

Heh. Same old fakehair. Didnt mean to offend you if I did. I am just not positive about babies. One the one hand it would be illogical to me to send a baby who cant even accept or reject Jesus to hell and that was not even OLD enough to do anything bad but on the other hand, there ARE NONE rigteous and ALL have sinned so Scripture would appear to be saying that. Guess I did not see AlanMolstad's posts, wherever they are? Alan?? Maybe I can learn something if I read them. Thanks

[RealFakeHair]

Heh. Same old fakehair. Didnt mean to offend you if I did. I am just not positive about babies. One the one hand it would be illogical to me to send a baby who cant even accept or reject Jesus to hell and that was not even OLD enough to do anything bad but on the other hand, there ARE NONE rigteous and ALL have sinned so Scripture would appear to be saying that. Guess I did not see AlanMolstad's posts, wherever they are? Alan?? Maybe I can learn something if I read them. Thanks

Remember you can never offend the smartest person in the room. lol

[Phoenix]

Phoenix- I allow charity to RealFakeHair to believe what he believes on the things that, to me, are not totally clear and on the subjects I have no control over, like a one second old baby dying.
That's fine to allow him to believe whatever he wants to believe. We all can and actually must do likewise, since none of us can force others to change their beliefs. That is not the issue. The issue is whether "Literally all humans, including babies who die in infancy, have sinned" is a true statement, a true doctrine.


... but lets not get sidetracked because I CAN warn YOU about certain things since you are an adult with understanding and responsibility to follow the ONLY person who can wash your stains away, ALL of them.
Sure, you can tell me things I already believe, but that's what's called preaching to the choir.


By the way, what does your church teach about babies?
That anyone who dies in infancy is innocent and has no need to repent, and has a guaranteed place in God's kingdom. People who die before they are able to sin, have nothing they need to repent of. They still need Christ, of course, but for other reasons. Christ paid the price for the sins of all who sin. But not all people sin, as I just stated. Only those who are able to sin will sin.

[jdjhere]

Romans 3:23 "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;"
Romans 3:10 "As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one"

So Phoenix, how do you deal with these verses? Like I said, I am confused on babies so I leave it to God. I "like" what you have posted above but just because I like it doesnt make it true. I think it might just be a mystery and we are called to just trust God because He is Holy and Good and He ALWAYS does what is right and just.

Phoenix stated: "Sure, you can tell me things I already believe, but that's what's called preaching to the choir."
Sorry. I got confused and thought you were LDS for some reason. :)

[Phoenix]

Romans 3:23 "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;"
Romans 3:10 "As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one"

So Phoenix, how do you deal with these verses?
I thought I told you: I deal with them by not taking them literally and universally. Other Bible verses mention the existence of righteous people, so either the Bible contradicts itself, or "there is none righteous" was not intended to be taken literally and sweepingly. Obviously, it's the latter...for people who don't believe the Bible contradicts itself on this issue.


Like I said, I am confused on babies so I leave it to God.
If you were LDS, you wouldn't be confused on this issue because there would be no need to be.



I "like" what you have posted above but just because I like it doesnt make it true. I think it might just be a mystery and we are called to just trust God because He is Holy and Good and He ALWAYS does what is right and just.
LDS people DO trust God--they trust Him when He said that babies who die weren't able to commit sin, since sin is the deliberate, conscious choice to disobey God. If a baby grabs something that doesn't belong to him/her, that is not a sin. If you don't trust me, here is the free dictionary's theological definition of "sin" ...


2. Theology. a. Deliberate disobedience to the known will of God.



Phoenix stated: "Sure, you can tell me things I already believe, but that's what's called preaching to the choir."
Sorry. I got confused and thought you were LDS for some reason. :)
You are indeed confused, if you think that LDS don't believe in following "the ONLY person who can wash your stains away, ALL of them."

Might be time to study LDS doctrines on this, on lds.org or mormon.org

[jdjhere]

Ok, so, you ARE LDS. Got it. It IS interesting that Romans 3:10 seems to repeat itself stating "there are NONE righteous" and then again "No, not one." I will leave ALL judgement to God, and especially babies.

[Phoenix]

Ok, so, you ARE LDS. Got it. It IS interesting that Romans 3:10 seems to repeat itself stating "there are NONE righteous" and then again "No, not one." I will leave ALL judgement to God, and especially babies.
Sounds good. Because that means you will leave judgment regarding whether LDS are Christians, whether they really have a false Christ, etc., to God. Quite refreshing, actually, to see people taking such a non-judgmental stance. Kudos to you.

[jdjhere]

I hate to burst your bubble about any ideas about me Phoenix but I have to be honest. I am talking about judgement after we, or babies, have died, Phoenix. I am called to "test ALL things and hold fast to that which is good" and it is my duty as a Christian to warn about false doctrine and false ideas about who God is. Phoenix- think about it. Joseph Smith judged the ENTIRE Christian Church, all of its clergy, therefore all of its members the clergy had been teaching, when he declared "I was told to join NONE of them" and that they were "ALL an abomination to God." I am not judging YOU and never will. I don't even know you. But Joseph Smith judged US, the Church. Most LDS I know are very nice, respectable people, at least on the surface. That does NOT prove Truth of doctrine, however. I do not believe the Gospel EVER needed to be restored and actually, what Joseph Smith did was try to re-write it and make it into something it is NOT. So, hopefully we can still talk respectfully to each other and discuss differences respectfully and openly. But be warned- I DO believe you have a "different" Jesus and "another" gospel, which is really no gospel at all. I say this just as respectfully as Joseph Smith said it to the Christian Church of his time.

[Phoenix]

Joseph Smith didn't say that you aren't a Christian. If you want to see REAL invective against Christendom in general, for having gone astray after the end of the Apostolic Era, then see what Pastors Williams and Wesley said about it. Here's Wesley:

2. It does not appear that these extraordinary gifts of the Holy Ghost were common in the church for more than two or three centuries We seldom hear of them after that fatal period when the Emperor Constantine called himself a Christian, and from a vain imagination of promoting the Christian cause thereby heaped riches, and power, and honour, upon the Christians in general; but in particular upon the Christian clergy. From this time they almost totally ceased; very few instances of the kind were found. The cause of this was not (as has been vulgarly supposed,) "because there was no more occasion for them," because all the world was become Christian. This is a miserable mistake; not a twentieth part of it was then nominally Christian. The real cause was, "the love of many," almost of all Christians, so called, was "waxed cold." The Christians had no more of the Spirit of Christ than the other Heathens. The Son of Man, when he came to examine his Church, could hardly "find faith upon earth." This was the real cause why the extraordinary gifts of the Holy Ghost were no longer to be found in the Christian Church -- because the Christians were turned Heathens again, and had only a dead form left.


What the "founder" of Mormonism said about Christendom starting to believe in false creeds is tame in comparison to what the founder Methodism said about Christendom.

[Libby]

Joseph Smith didn't say that you aren't a Christian. If you want to see REAL invective against Christendom in general, for having gone astray after the end of the Apostolic Era, then see what Pastors Williams and Wesley said about it. Here's Wesley:

2. It does not appear that these extraordinary gifts of the Holy Ghost were common in the church for more than two or three centuries We seldom hear of them after that fatal period when the Emperor Constantine called himself a Christian, and from a vain imagination of promoting the Christian cause thereby heaped riches, and power, and honour, upon the Christians in general; but in particular upon the Christian clergy. From this time they almost totally ceased; very few instances of the kind were found. The cause of this was not (as has been vulgarly supposed,) "because there was no more occasion for them," because all the world was become Christian. This is a miserable mistake; not a twentieth part of it was then nominally Christian. The real cause was, "the love of many," almost of all Christians, so called, was "waxed cold." The Christians had no more of the Spirit of Christ than the other Heathens. The Son of Man, when he came to examine his Church, could hardly "find faith upon earth." This was the real cause why the extraordinary gifts of the Holy Ghost were no longer to be found in the Christian Church -- because the Christians were turned Heathens again, and had only a dead form left.


What the "founder" of Mormonism said about Christendom starting to believe in false creeds is tame in comparison to what the founder Methodism said about Christendom.

This is very interesting. My ancestors were followers of John Wesley. My great great grandfather had to flee Ireland because of religious persecution. He came to the American west (at that time - which was Indiana) and built (and became Pastor of) a log cabin church, which still stands in Turkey Run State Park. It's pretty cool. :)

[RealFakeHair]

This is very interesting. My ancestors were followers of John Wesley. My great great grandfather had to flee Ireland because of religious persecution. He came to the American west (at that time - which was Indiana) and built (and became Pastor of) a log cabin church, which still stands in Turkey Run State Park. It's pretty cool. :)

Here is something cool too. I performed a wedding in the same chapel John Wesley preached in.

[Phoenix]

Here is something cool too. I performed a wedding in the same chapel John Wesley preached in.

That's nothing: I watched a movie that had a guy named Ron Weasley in it. :)

[jdjhere]

THATS nothing. Ron Weasley is my UNCLE. :) (not really)

[Libby]

Here is something cool too. I performed a wedding in the same chapel John Wesley preached in.

Are you an ordained minister??

[Libby]

That's nothing: I watched a movie that had a guy named Ron Weasley in it. :)

Aye! lol

[alanmolstad]

Typical....

everyone posts during the week, and thats the one time I have no time to post at all....(I only have the weekends to play here)

[Libby]

Hi Alan!

................

[alanmolstad]

still fighting the good fight?

[Libby]

I think so, yes....in my own way. :)

[alanmolstad]

I think so, yes....in my own way. :)
at 3:08 am in the morning?.....you are the early bird!

[Libby]

at 3:08 am in the morning?.....you are the early bird!

Actually, it was 2:08 am Pacific Time and I wasn't up early, I was up late. I'm pretty much a night owl, since I retired. Bedtime is usually between 1 and 2 am. :)