Is Being Born-Again Irrelevant? [Archive] - Walter Martin Ministries Forum

alanmolstad

11-17-2012, 07:48 AM

all I see is a refusal to give us a direct answer......I see you did not answer my question.....
oh well.....my point remains.....

I have written a great many things on this forum.
In all this time, after all such history, have I ever said even one word that caused you to question my Christian faith?

The proof of the pudding......the proof is found not in the pudding's self descriptions of itself, but in it's tasting by others...

So, go check out my history, look at any and all of my posts over the years I have been a member here.
Then come back and tell me you find even the slightest word I have posted that tell you that Im not a Christian.

yes, I post different than you do, just look at how I pick out words to post that reflect my own private views on a great many matters.

I may post with a different style than you do, but Im ok with that.
I answer questions in my own way,
I ask questions in my own way,
I dont much try to copy the style of others here,
I try to be calm in the middle of some very stormy seas at times around here....

But if you think that you know of something I have posted that you believe "No Christian would say that ever" then bring that to me....or else if you dont have anything, then lets move on and not make this topic about me personally....

ActRaiser

11-17-2012, 08:27 AM

all I see is a refusal to give us a direct answer.

http://imageshack.us/a/img689/9504/owljpg202956.jpg

ActRaiser

11-17-2012, 08:54 AM

http://imageshack.us/a/img689/9504/owljpg202956.jpg

This image of an angry looking Owl was posted because I think it's clear that AlanMostad WAS giving you an answer. You just seem to be refusing his answer as an answer. :|

James Banta

11-17-2012, 09:11 AM

.....I see you did not answer my question.....
oh well.....my point remains.....

I have written a great many things on this forum.
In all this time, after all such history, have I ever said even one word that caused you to question my Christian faith?

The proof of the pudding......the proof is found not in the pudding's self descriptions of itself, but in it's tasting by others...

So, go check out my history, look at any and all of my posts over the years I have been a member here.
Then come back and tell me you find even the slightest word I have posted that tell you that Im not a Christian.

yes, I post different than you do, just look at how I pick out words to post that reflect my own private views on a great many matters.

I may post with a different style than you do, but Im ok with that.
I answer questions in my own way,
I ask questions in my own way,
I dont much try to copy the style of others here,
I try to be calm in the middle of some very stormy seas at times around here....

But if you think that you know of something I have posted that you believe "No Christian would say that ever" then bring that to me....or else if you dont have anything, then lets move on and not make this topic about me personally....

All who have posted on this thread are Christian. We accept that by nature of the faith we have acknowledged. God see that in out hearts and has made us His children. Alan is right we don't see each others hearts and rely in seeing His works within us. The works we see here is our testimony of Jesus we proclaim.. Each of us have done so and will continue to lift our Lord before the non believing LDS.. So let us now have love for ine another because this is how we are known by the world..

John 13:35
By this shall all men know that you are my disciples, if you have love one to another. IHS jim

TheSword99

11-17-2012, 09:22 AM

.....I see you did not answer my question.....
oh well.....my point remains.....

I have written a great many things on this forum.
In all this time, after all such history, have I ever said even one word that caused you to question my Christian faith?

The proof of the pudding......the proof is found not in the pudding's self descriptions of itself, but in it's tasting by others...

So, go check out my history, look at any and all of my posts over the years I have been a member here.
Then come back and tell me you find even the slightest word I have posted that tell you that Im not a Christian.

yes, I post different than you do, just look at how I pick out words to post that reflect my own private views on a great many matters.

I may post with a different style than you do, but Im ok with that.
I answer questions in my own way,
I ask questions in my own way,
I dont much try to copy the style of others here,
I try to be calm in the middle of some very stormy seas at times around here....

But if you think that you know of something I have posted that you believe "No Christian would say that ever" then bring that to me....or else if you dont have anything, then lets move on and not make this topic about me personally....

A yes would have sufficed and then others will move on.

alanmolstad

11-17-2012, 09:28 AM

and, Sword cant resist adding his 2cents too...LOL

Everyone get that out of their system?
can we go back to a non-personal topic now?.......thanks,

alanmolstad

11-17-2012, 09:34 AM

TheSword99

11-17-2012, 10:44 AM

was the best example of a person turning to the Lord, (The Thief on the cross), yet a story of a person expressing their born again-ness?

The topic I see raised again and again is "works vs faith"
Christians talk about "Saved by Grace though faith"
Mormons drop back to their church's teachings that you are saved via 'works" and this is expressed as "all you can do"

The "do-ing" is the main consideration with all CULTs as it means you are dependent on not faith but your own cult-driven actions to become saved.

Yet in the story of the Thief on the cross we see a very good example of the born again experience being expressed in a confession of faith....
The Thief did not have to say "Im Born Again"
rather what the Thief does is confess the Lord.

This is a confession driven by the born again inner nature of a person..

No where in the Bible does it say "yes the Thief was Born Again"
But we can know this by his actions, by his only recorded works...

This is how we know if a person is truly born again.....by their works.
For while works do not save anyone, they do reveal the true faith hidden in the heart.

I agree that we shall know them by their fruits. However, a born again Christian never hesitates to let the world know that Jesus is His Savior.

The thief on the cross was under the old covenant.

glm1978

11-17-2012, 12:10 PM

was the best example of a person turning to the Lord, (The Thief on the cross), yet a story of a person expressing their born again-ness?

The topic I see raised again and again is "works vs faith"
Christians talk about "Saved by Grace though faith"
Mormons drop back to their church's teachings that you are saved via 'works" and this is expressed as "all you can do"

The "do-ing" is the main consideration with all CULTs as it means you are dependent on not faith but your own cult-driven actions to become saved.

Yet in the story of the Thief on the cross we see a very good example of the born again experience being expressed in a confession of faith....
The Thief did not have to say "Im Born Again"
rather what the Thief does is confess the Lord.

This is a confession driven by the born again inner nature of a person..

No where in the Bible does it say "yes the Thief was Born Again"
But we can know this by his actions, by his only recorded works...

This is how we know if a person is truly born again.....by their works.
For while works do not save anyone, they do reveal the true faith hidden in the heart.

Alan, I am not your enemy, but Christians should hold each other accountable. Paul did this. Maybe you can help us understand why you have an aversion to saying whether or not you are born again. Christians remember when and where they got saved. For me it was 8 years ago at a bible study.

I agree with sword90 that the thief was under the Old Covenant and the teaching of being born again did not begin until Pentecost where the Holy Spirit came upon the apostles and their ministry began.

alanmolstad

11-17-2012, 01:02 PM

....Maybe you can help us understand why you have an aversion .

Tell you want I can do for you...I can give you a very clear warning...

ATTENTION glm1978 - If you can not stick to a topic without getting personal I will add your name to my permanent IGNORE list....

(Now heed my warning and move on)

Sir

11-17-2012, 09:38 PM

An lds poster said that the topic of whether or not one is born-again is irrelevant.

That was me. I see you missed the context of that statement. I said it in response to alan who stated:

"I dont not get into personal stuff.....for such topics are none of anyone's business and only serve to side-track a topic."

Alan was asked if he was born-again. He said that topic was none of anyone's business. So I stated:

"The topic of whether or not he is born-again is irrelevant. That's Hilarious."

In other words, OF COURSE it is important and relevant to know if someone is born-again. And OF COURSE we must all be born-again as Jesus commanded.

Obviously even in this thread alan has a problem openly stating that he is born-again. SO the games continue. He gets mad and threatens to ignore all the LDS and the LDS get bored and stop posting. Merry-go-round.

Clear now?

TheSword99

11-18-2012, 04:39 AM

That was me. I see you missed the context of that statement. I said it in response to alan who stated:

"I dont not get into personal stuff.....for such topics are none of anyone's business and only serve to side-track a topic."

Alan was asked if he was born-again. He said that topic was none of anyone's business. So I stated:

"The topic of whether or not he is born-again is irrelevant. That's Hilarious."

In other words, OF COURSE it is important and relevant to know if someone is born-again. And OF COURSE we must all be born-again as Jesus commanded.

Obviously even in this thread alan has a problem openly stating that he is born-again. SO the games continue. He gets mad and threatens to ignore all the LDS and the LDS get bored and stop posting. Merry-go-round.

Clear now?

I started this thread in the hopes that the lds could tell us how they define being "born again."

TheSword99

11-18-2012, 04:46 AM

Tell you want I can do for you...I can give you a very clear warning...

ATTENTION glm1978 - If you can not stick to a topic without getting personal I will add your name to my permanent IGNORE list....

(Now heed my warning and move on)

This thread IS about being born again. You seem to feel that a Christian does not have to tell others if he is saved or not. That your words on the forum should suffice to convince others. If I had a pastor who refused to tell me if he was saved, I would FLEE. There are "christian" leaders who believe Genesis is allegory, deny the virgin birth and hell, etc. Yet they preach very good sermons.

Anyway, I am trying to find out what the lds church teaches about being born again.

TheSword99

11-18-2012, 05:47 AM

Tell you want I can do for you...I can give you a very clear warning...

ATTENTION glm1978 - If you can not stick to a topic without getting personal I will add your name to my permanent IGNORE list....

(Now heed my warning and move on)

I guess according to you, admitting one is born again is too personal a thing to do...:(...:confused:

alanmolstad

11-18-2012, 07:41 AM

This thread IS about being born again. You seem to feel that a Christian does not have to tell others if he is saved or not. .....
This is very true!

No person (Christian or non-Christian) on this internet forum should feel under any pressure at all to reveal things about their personal feelings or views.

This should be the very foundation of a message forum such as this.

The idea should be that people can feel free to come and discuss ideas, they can talk about religions, and the differences about other religions, and talk about the nature of holy books and the text of the Bible, WITHOUT being attacked in a personal way!

I tell people to "Debate Mormonism, but don't attack the Mormon forum members personally"
mormons that come to this forum should not be attacked personally, and should be respected and they should never feel personally disrespected by Christians.

Argue about the Bible, but dont argue over each other....
Dont make this a forum known to "get personal" and where you see only name-calling and bickering that have nothing to do with the given topic, but seem to be noting more than childish fighting.

Now as for this poster named "glm1978"?
I have seen how this person will use things said or not said on other topics to try to hurt people later.
Thats why I have had enough of their attacks....

They have made an enemy of me and Im not going to put up with this any more.

This also shows why I believe you have to be careful what you say here, and none of you can not be trusted with personal information.

(I dont know if I have gotten a chance to Private Message everyone here yet about glm1978, but I have tried to send messages to new people I see logging-on about the danger of sharing too personal information with glm1978.)

I have glm1978 all teed-up to place on my permanent ignore list if he/she shoots their mouth off again after my clear warning ....
I dont care one way or the other.

Over the years I have found that placing names on my IGNORE list is the very best way to avoid pointless personal attacks, and it also helps clean up my computer screen from this type of known tripe-writers that play their games.

I ban people from having the opportunity to talk to me because of actions just like what glm1978 is known for, ie: asking the same question over and over (ask Billy, ask Eric-Eric, ask Sir) and I never take the names off my ignore list....

This is the only way to keep topics from becoming always the same personal attacks, where you see things learned about people years ago , are always being twisted into being used as ways to hurt them later.

This is the advice I send out to people when i see them get stuck in a loop of attack/defend over totally personal issues.

"Just put their name on your IGNORE LIST and move on!"

It saves time, and shows that you have a standard of behavior and good manners that you require of people if they wish their words to appear on your computer screen...

Remember being on my computer screen is not a right....it's a privilege, and each person that appears on my screen should consider themselves a 'guest"...and conform their posts to the good manners of a guest.

Now let me tell you the story of why this has to be the way I run things for the posters that wish to have their words read on my computer...

Years ago I got to know a new poster that seemed to always have nice things to say and who seemed to try to work to get people to not fight on the forum.
Lets call her name "Sally"

Sally sent me a PM on the side and talked about all the trouble she had had in her life.
I offered some advice and sent her a joke to cheer her up.
I even sent her a recipe for a dish I had been working on.
So she was a good forum friend of mine.

Then one day she was in an angry argument with another forum member on some verse dealing with speaking in tongues, when all of the sudden the guy she was fighting with posted about her lack of understanding, and the fact that this was likely the cause of her needing to get an abortion in High school.

That was the last day Sally posted on the open forum.
She was gone....
She never posted again....

But I did receive a private message from her about a month later where Sally told me she had been sending PMs to another lady on the forum and had talked about her own private problems in High school....
It clearly was the type of private conversation that only girls share with each other, and that us guys would just never understand.

What must have happened is that this private information got spread around the forum, and when word of her past reached this one guy she was debating with he used this personal information against her to hurt her.

Thats the End of the story:

After this happened I have made it my own personal rule to watch-out for people that seem a-little-too-interested in asking personal questions.

I make an effort to turn back topics that seem to have gotten off-track and have slid down into being just personal attacks.
and i warn new posters about what they should watch out for, and who.......,

glm1978

11-18-2012, 07:45 AM

All I did was ask a simple legitimate question.

alanmolstad

11-18-2012, 08:28 AM

All I did was ask a simple legitimate question.could not let it go could you?

IGNORED!

(i warned you)

TheSword99

11-18-2012, 09:01 AM

Alan, I guess you forgot that ErikErik p***ed away last year. He was my brother. James Banta was the only one who offered his condolences.You had Erik on ignore for so long that you missed his last message to you. You sent IMs warning others about him. It hurt him deeply. It's very sad that you are now doing it to glm.

You can block me, BillyRay, glm1978 and other Christians all you want, but you are really only hurting yourself. Life is way too short to carry on such petty bickering. No one was personally attacking you. If you don't like this thread you can always unsubscribe to it. But please don't run smear campaigns.

alanmolstad

11-18-2012, 09:07 AM

Alan, I guess you forgot that ErikErik p***ed away last year. You had Erik on ignore for so long that you missed his last message to you.
Did he think I was kidding when I warned him that once you get put on ignore you are never getting off that list?

Is there any doubt now?....(I dont think so)

alanmolstad

11-18-2012, 09:11 AM

Life is way too short to carry on such petty bickering..
Again you fail to understand, the ignore setting of this forum ENDS bickering!

You lower the boom on a pester that shows bad manners and all the pointless bickering comes to a complete stop.

Billy knows this for a fact too....I put him on ignore and that killed the arguement, and not another word of his was again to appear on my computer screen, nor will it ever again.
From my point of view, he no longer exists.

I always warn people.
They know what to do , or not to do.
Thus there is none to blame for the outcome but themselves.

BOOM!....In one move the whole argument over!
bickering over,
hurt feelings- OVER!

After I warn people I always try to re-introduce the real topic so that the person can take the hint and move on.
But some people just cant take a hint....

alanmolstad

11-18-2012, 09:20 AM

And oh and by the way...the Thief on the cross died under the NEW covenant....not the old....see John 19:32

Sir

11-18-2012, 12:47 PM

I started this thread in the hopes that the lds could tell us how they define being "born again."

That's fine.

But you started the thread with a quote from me, but your quote of me is out of context and you distorted its true meaning.

Just trying to help you make it honest, if you care to be seen as honest.

Again, alan was asked in another thread (and here too) if he was born-again. He claimed that was personal information and that such a topic was irrelevant. So I stated that the topic of being born-again as being irrelevant is hilarious (since it definitely is relevant and inportant!).

But even here, alan is not only refusing to answer such a simple question, he has chosen to argue, cause discord, and to make his silly threats of ignoring everyone that doesn't see things his way or that rubs him the wrong way. I'm quite surprised he has ANYONE left to converse with that isn't on his ignore list that he brags about so frequently. :p

Sir

11-18-2012, 02:10 PM

Billy knows this for a fact too....I put him on ignore and that killed the arguement, and not another word of his was again to appear on my computer screen, nor will it ever again.
From my point of view, he no longer exists.

Now, glm is on ignore for alan. I would say of the 4 non-LDS posters who post here anymore, alan only has about 2 left that "exist" to him.

This is why alan keeps responding to threads that were started in 2009!!!

LOL

He has everyone ignored so now he goes and answers threads from 3 years ago to posters who no longer even post here.

More proof this forum is almost dead and even the owner hasn't logged in since October 4th. LOL

TheSword99

11-19-2012, 05:11 AM

And oh and by the way...the Thief on the cross died under the NEW covenant....not the old....see John 19:32

Yes, we KNOW the thief died under the New Covenant. But you tried to make a case saying that since the thief never said he was born again, neither do you have to. The thief was alive only during the Old Covenant, wasn't he? The apostles had not yet preached what Christ taught them.

By the way that you have treated Erik and glm and ran smear campaigns in the hopes of destroying their character, would you say that is being Christ-like? You never even said you were sorry that Erik p***ed away. Instead you ranted and raved and told me he deserved the treatment you gave him. I have never met a christian who refused to answer, yes or no, if he is born again. If you feel it's too personal to share what faith you belong to and if your saved or not, then either you aren't saved or you are ashamed of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

TheSword99

11-19-2012, 05:13 AM

That's fine.

But you started the thread with a quote from me, but your quote of me is out of context and you distorted its true meaning.

Just trying to help you make it honest, if you care to be seen as honest.

Again, alan was asked in another thread (and here too) if he was born-again. He claimed that was personal information and that such a topic was irrelevant. So I stated that the topic of being born-again as being irrelevant is hilarious (since it definitely is relevant and inportant!).

But even here, alan is not only refusing to answer such a simple question, he has chosen to argue, cause discord, and to make his silly threats of ignoring everyone that doesn't see things his way or that rubs him the wrong way. I'm quite surprised he has ANYONE left to converse with that isn't on his ignore list that he brags about so frequently. :p

I apologize that I misunderstood the meaning of your post.

alanmolstad

11-19-2012, 05:52 PM

....The thief was alive only during the Old Covenant, wasn't he? .

wrong...I gave you the answer and the verse that supports it....now go check it out...

alanmolstad

11-19-2012, 06:02 PM

You never even said you were sorry that Erik p***ed away......

What do you want...a tissue?

Erik crossed the line with me...
I warned him....
I warned him and warned him, but he would not listen and so I put him on ignore...

But thats all I did too.

The story ended there.

I didnt have to attack him personally,
I didnt have to respond to him.
I didn't have to say another word to him, or about him...

He no longer appeared on my screen, so he did not exist as far as I was concerned.

I never gave him another thought after I added him to the list.

And thats the thing I want to point out now...
Thats the beauty of adding trouble makers to your ignore list and why I always suggest it for anyone that is having a problem with another member of the form...because it ENDS the problem!

Boom!....end of story,

Is that not so much better than the endless arguing and the endless bickering?

So I did the right thing.

I added his name to the list and I never saw another word he posted, nor did I ever bother to respond to another one of his rants.......

In other words...the ignore list worked like a CHARM!

Sir

11-19-2012, 07:53 PM

What do you want...a tissue?

Erik crossed the line with me...
I warned him....
I warned him and warned him, but he would not listen and so I put him on ignore...

But thats all I did too.

The story ended there.

I didnt have to attack him personally,
I didnt have to respond to him.
I didn't have to say another word to him, or about him...

He no longer appeared on my screen, so he did not exist as far as I was concerned.

I never gave him another thought after I added him to the list.

And thats the thing I want to point out now...
Thats the beauty of adding trouble makers to your ignore list and why I always suggest it for anyone that is having a problem with another member of the form...because it ENDS the problem!

Boom!....end of story,

Is that not so much better than the endless arguing and the endless bickering?

So I did the right thing.

I added his name to the list and I never saw another word he posted, nor did I ever bother to respond to another one of his rants.......

In other words...the ignore list worked like a CHARM!

This is a great example of the type of 'christianity' that is supposedly what we LDS are supposed to renounce our faith for.

The gospel of "you offended me", of "holding grudges" and of "oh, so a guy that offended me died? What do you want, a tissue?"

Great example of what NOT to follow.

alanmolstad

11-19-2012, 07:59 PM

Notice what the text says...

The soldiers therefore came and broke the legs of the first man who had been crucified with Jesus, and then those of the other. But when they came to Jesus and found that he was already dead, they did not break his legs

The Thief on the cross lived when?, before or after the death of Christ on the cross for our sins?

Truly the Thief repented of his sins, and turned to the lord .
This is the outward sign we are looking for to KNOW that this man was truly "born again"

This is what it looks like...

this is a very good example to study...

TheSword99

11-20-2012, 07:57 AM

Not one lds will even tell us their definition of "born again." :rolleyes:

James Banta

11-20-2012, 08:56 AM

Not one lds will even tell us their definition of "born again." :rolleyes:

I will do something they hate. I will tell you what they believe being Born Again is..

God requires that one be born again—born of water and of the Spirit (see John 3:3–5). His teaching about a physical and a spiritual baptism helps us understand that both our own action and the intervention of divine power are needed for this transformative rebirth (D. Todd Christofferson, Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, April 2008 General Conference, http://www.lds.org/general-conference/2008/04/born-again?lang=eng)

Ok so being Born again in mormonism is a accomplishment not just of God but also of the individual in conforming themselves to the commandments of God. A person MUST endure to the end in righteousness (Something I have never heard any LDS tell me they are doing) to be born again.. I could have said that they see being Born again as their baptism but that is only the beginning. That means in this life no mormon can be born again.. They MUST deny the teaching of Jesus AGAIN and hold that being Born Again is not something that can be done in this world. BUT WAIT, IF THEY DON'T ENDURE TO THE END, which they don't, THEY CAN'T BE BORN AGAIN.. It would seem that mormonism is a path to ****ation not to life.. IHS jim

TheSword99

11-20-2012, 09:02 AM

I will do something they hate. I will tell you what they believe being Born Again is..

God requires that one be born again—born of water and of the Spirit (see John 3:3–5). His teaching about a physical and a spiritual baptism helps us understand that both our own action and the intervention of divine power are needed for this transformative rebirth (D. Todd Christofferson, Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, April 2008 General Conference, http://www.lds.org/general-conference/2008/04/born-again?lang=eng)

Ok so being Born again in mormonism is a accomplishment not just of God but also of the individual in conforming themselves to the commandments of God. A person MUST endure to the end in righteousness (Something I have never heard any LDS tell me they are doing) to be born again.. I could have said that they see being Born again as their baptism but that is only the beginning. That means in this life no mormon can be born again.. They MUST deny the teaching of Jesus AGAIN and hold that being Born Again is not something that can be done in this world. BUT WAIT, IF THEY DON'T ENDURE TO THE END, which they don't, THEY CAN'T BE BORN AGAIN.. It would seem that mormonism is a path to ****ation not to life.. IHS jim

So, if being born again is impossible to do in this world, then how is that Christ commanded we must be born again or we cannot see the kingdom of God? The Holy Bible clearly teaches that no unregenerate person will be in heaven.

James Banta

11-20-2012, 09:11 AM

So, if being born again is impossible to do in this world, then how is that Christ commanded we must be born again or we cannot see the kingdom of God? The Holy Bible clearly teaches that no unregenerate person will be in heaven.

THAT WASN'T LITERAL.. IHS jim

alanmolstad

11-23-2012, 10:38 AM

Yes, we KNOW the thief died under the New Covenant. .......
The thief was alive only during the Old Covenant, wasn't he?

The thief on the cross was under the old covenant.

All Im saying is what the bible tells us happened.
The thief died after Jesus had paid the price with his blood for the sins of men.

Thus the Thief was alive under the New Covenant!

TheSword99

11-24-2012, 06:52 AM

All Im saying is what the bible tells us happened.
The thief died after Jesus had paid the price with his blood for the sins of men.

Thus the Thief was alive under the New Covenant!

Why do you still insist on using the thief to justify your own refusal to say whether or not you are born again? Anyway, you are now permanently blocked. You think by answering every thread that your words will prove anything. I have never in my whole life met a truly saved Christian refuse to tell the world that he is BORN AGAIN.

alanmolstad

11-24-2012, 11:00 AM

The Thief on the cross is a very good image of how people come to salvation.

This is why I like to refer to the story of the Thief on the cross, because it's a stripped-down story of a man turning to the Lord and putting his eternal fate in the Lord's hands.

This is also why the people that are determined to place a wall of rules between the sinner and their Lord hate the story of the Thief on the cross.

The people that want salvation to be complicated hate the idea that a guy can just have a simple faith in Christ, and that is enough for them to be saved.

The rule makers want there to be all kinds of things that people need to "say" to prove they are saved.

Or...

Or they want there to be all kinds of "works" that a person must perform in order to be saved.

The CULTs hate the idea of a simple faith that we find in the words of the Thief on the cross, because the CULTs always want there to be a special procedure to getting saved.
The CULTS want people to feel uncertain that are saved, and thus need to work as hard as they can to push the ideas of the CULT in order to earn their salvation.

This is also why the CULTs normally also hate he idea of having confidence in your salvation.
CULTS like to push the idea that "You can never be 100% sure" because that keeps people in the CULT from thinking for themselves, or seeking the Lord outside the teachings of the CULT leaders.

Most all CULTS hate the concept of "Once saved/Forever safe" as it means that people would not be afraid of leaving the CULT , because CULTs need people to think that only the CULT has the path to salvation...and that path can change with updated teachings all the time from the CULT's leaders.

So, this is why I like to turn people's attention to the story of the Thief on the cross to show what is the bible's example of how men are saved.

No magic words....

No magic water...

Just like we read about the Thief, a repentant heart and a confession of personal faith is the bible's guidance to our salvation.

TheSword99

11-24-2012, 01:07 PM

That's fine.

But you started the thread with a quote from me, but your quote of me is out of context and you distorted its true meaning.

Just trying to help you make it honest, if you care to be seen as honest.

Again, alan was asked in another thread (and here too) if he was born-again. He claimed that was personal information and that such a topic was irrelevant. So I stated that the topic of being born-again as being irrelevant is hilarious (since it definitely is relevant and inportant!).

But even here, alan is not only refusing to answer such a simple question, he has chosen to argue, cause discord, and to make his silly threats of ignoring everyone that doesn't see things his way or that rubs him the wrong way. I'm quite surprised he has ANYONE left to converse with that isn't on his ignore list that he brags about so frequently. :p

Did I not apologize and you ignored the apology? Some of us are not above admitting when we make a mistake. However, you do ask for it by your frequent mocking, sarcasm, LOLing and failure to address the OP and discuss Mormonism...

James Banta

11-24-2012, 04:37 PM

Did I not apologize and you ignored the apology? Some of us are not above admitting when we make a mistake. However, you do ask for it by your frequent mocking, sarcasm, LOLing and failure to address the OP and discuss Mormonism...

I saw you apologize. I apologized for my error.. And yet there is no acceptance from sir or any of his fellow cultists.. That is the life they have made.. God bless you.. IHS jim

Sir

11-24-2012, 07:55 PM

Did I not apologize and you ignored the apology? Some of us are not above admitting when we make a mistake. However, you do ask for it by your frequent mocking, sarcasm, LOLing and failure to address the OP and discuss Mormonism...

What are you talking about? You already replied to this post and apologized for your mistake. That was on 11/19. Not sure why you are responding to it again.

Also, I'm not sure what it is you claim I am "asking for". I'm asking for you to misrepresent me? That seems to be where the flow of this is going, and that doesn't make much sense either.

You made a mistake and apologized.

Nothing more really needed to be said.

TheSword99

11-25-2012, 04:17 AM

I saw you apologize. I apologized for my error.. And yet there is no acceptance from sir or any of his fellow cultists.. That is the life they have made.. God bless you.. IHS jim

It's hard to have any real discussions on here because of all the mocking. Then they get mad because we took them seriously when they were actually being sarcastic.

I guess if I were lds and believed I could be a god someday on my very own planet, I would feel above others. If I was always taught that I am a member of the One True Church, I would be smug too.That is why I started the "Fear Of God" thread. I do not see the lds as having this reverence.

glm1978

11-25-2012, 07:22 AM

What are you talking about? You already replied to this post and apologized for your mistake. That was on 11/19. Not sure why you are responding to it again.

Also, I'm not sure what it is you claim I am "asking for". I'm asking for you to misrepresent me? That seems to be where the flow of this is going, and that doesn't make much sense either.

You made a mistake and apologized.

Nothing more really needed to be said.

Are you born again?

Sir

11-25-2012, 12:30 PM

Are you born again?

Of course.

Sir

11-25-2012, 12:36 PM

It's hard to have any real discussions on here because of all the mocking.

Then maybe you critics ought to stop the mocking.

Then they get mad because we took them seriously when they were actually being sarcastic.

Nobody is "mad". And what I said wasn't "sarcastic". You misunderstood my comment in the context that it was in. That doesn't mean my comment was sarcastic but rather you misunderstood it.

I guess if I were lds and believed I could be a god someday on my very own planet, I would feel above others.

See? You didn't get very far from accusing LDS of mocking to actually being the mocker yourself. :rolleyes:

If I was always taught that I am a member of the One True Church, I would be smug too.

You are in a forum devoted to attacking others' faith. So who is really the "smug" person who believes he has the truth and the others people are hell-bound? :rolleyes:

That is why I started the "Fear Of God" thread. I do not see the lds as having this reverence.

Obviously in this one little post you made points and then destroyed them all by yourself. Nice ***!

glm1978

11-25-2012, 01:27 PM

Of course.

Then please explain how the LDS defines being "born again."

glm1978

11-25-2012, 01:29 PM

Sir

11-25-2012, 01:55 PM

There you go again with the attacks.

No attacks. I was responding to the charges made by one of your own.

He charged LDS of mocking. That is an attack, right? All I did was show that he was the one doing the mocking in the very same post.

You willingly choose to only see an "attack" when it is an LDS post.

No wonder nobody takes you seriously!

Nobody? That's a broad sweeping accusation. Maybe you don't. And that is fine. You have already proven that you only see what you want to see, given the above-mentioned comments.

Can you please give it a rest?

I was responding to someone else. Defending my comments against his. If you don't like that you are free to remove yourself from that line of conversation.

Why is it so difficult to share your faith?

It's not. I share it often.

None of the LDS have given me any reason why I should return to your church. NONE!

No need to. You see things your way. You claim to already have been a member and have left. What could LDS possible "show" you to convince you to return? This charge you make is a common taunt from ex-mormons. The whole "make me see why I should return to my LDS faith" when the problem is ex-mormons that post on websites devoted to attacking Mormonism obviously have no true and real intent or desire to "see" the truth and good of the faith they have renounced.

glm1978

11-25-2012, 02:35 PM

No attacks. I was responding to the charges made by one of your own.

He charged LDS of mocking. That is an attack, right? All I did was show that he was the one doing the mocking in the very same post.

You willingly choose to only see an "attack" when it is an LDS post.

Nobody? That's a broad sweeping accusation. Maybe you don't. And that is fine. You have already proven that you only see what you want to see, given the above-mentioned comments.

I was responding to someone else. Defending my comments against his. If you don't like that you are free to remove yourself from that line of conversation.

It's not. I share it often.

No need to. You see things your way. You claim to already have been a member and have left. What could LDS possible "show" you to convince you to return? This charge you make is a common taunt from ex-mormons. The whole "make me see why I should return to my LDS faith" when the problem is ex-mormons that post on websites devoted to attacking Mormonism obviously have no true and real intent or desire to "see" the truth and good of the faith they have renounced.

He's right, you guys mock and attack all the time as a means not to discuss Mormonism..:rolleyes:

You're starting to sound like Alan..:rolleyes:

By the way, I asked you to please explain how Mormons define Born again. Can you please answer.

Sir

11-25-2012, 02:40 PM

He's right, you guys mock and attack all the time as a means not to discuss Mormonism..:rolleyes:

You're starting to sound like Alan..:rolleyes:

See what you did there? You avoided my post that proved that your own guy was actually doing the mocking, not the LDS, in the same post that he was charging the LDS of mocking.

And you, in this post, in claiming that the LDS do the mocking and attacking, just "attacked" one of your own, "Alan", who had nothing to do with this conversation but you felt the need to attack him and throw him under the bus.

That's why we LDS simply have to "LOL". Two of you LDS-critics just showed us that while you charge the LDS for attacking people, you actually do that very thing in the very same posts that you make your accusations against others!!!!

Now, since YOU were once LDS, why don't you explain what being born-again means to a Mormon.

James Banta

11-25-2012, 06:23 PM

It's hard to have any real discussions on here because of all the mocking. Then they get mad because we took them seriously when they were actually being sarcastic.

I guess if I were lds and believed I could be a god someday on my very own planet, I would feel above others. If I was always taught that I am a member of the One True Church, I would be smug too.That is why I started the "Fear Of God" thread. I do not see the lds as having this reverence.

To them reverence is being quiet in church.. It has nothing to so with seeing the Greatness of God and our helpless weak place before Him.. That is the reverence they ignore. After all they are gods in embryo.. IHS jim

James Banta

11-25-2012, 06:37 PM

Then maybe you critics ought to stop the mocking.

Nobody is "mad". And what I said wasn't "sarcastic". You misunderstood my comment in the context that it was in. That doesn't mean my comment was sarcastic but rather you misunderstood it.

See? You didn't get very far from accusing LDS of mocking to actually being the mocker yourself. :rolleyes:

You are in a forum devoted to attacking others' faith. So who is really the "smug" person who believes he has the truth and the others people are hell-bound? :rolleyes:

Obviously in this one little post you made points and then destroyed them all by yourself. Nice ***!

I am SMUG!!! Not because I am so great.. Not because I am a god in embryo. I am smug that My Lord, MY GOD can do all things. He takes the evil hearts of men and recreates them to be a heart like unto His.. Jesus as revealed in the Bible is someone to be SMUG about.. And when I compare Him with me I am totally awe struck.. And that is just with a description, when I stand before Him I will be ****n away by Him greatness. No Self Righteous smugness in that.. That is reserved for those that only look for a Jesus to help them in their own personal climb toward exaltation, and a place as a fellow god in their own creation.. Biblically I don't see any way to be smug about personal righteousness since God see such as filthy rags.. IHS jim

James Banta

11-25-2012, 06:45 PM

See what you did there? You avoided my post that proved that your own guy was actually doing the mocking, not the LDS, in the same post that he was charging the LDS of mocking.

And you, in this post, in claiming that the LDS do the mocking and attacking, just "attacked" one of your own, "Alan", who had nothing to do with this conversation but you felt the need to attack him and throw him under the bus.

That's why we LDS simply have to "LOL". Two of you LDS-critics just showed us that while you charge the LDS for attacking people, you actually do that very thing in the very same posts that you make your accusations against others!!!!

Now, since YOU were once LDS, why don't you explain what being born-again means to a Mormon.

The LDS SMUG attacks started in the revised first vision story found today in JSH in the PofPG.. The addition especially in verse 19 are a clear attack on our Pastors and our churches.. I can find hundreds of attacks by your later 19th and early 20th century "prophets".. And you tell us that we guilty of attacking the LDS people? No, we attack unbiblical teaching and Mormonism is filled with it.. I attack the unbiblical teaching put out there by anyone.. You don't have to be mormon to be in error but it sure helps.. IHS jim

Sir

11-25-2012, 08:55 PM

To them reverence is being quiet in church.. It has nothing to so with seeing the Greatness of God and our helpless weak place before Him.. That is the reverence they ignore. After all they are gods in embryo.. IHS jim

See how the critics do the mocking?

Kind of funny that in the same thread, no less than 3 critics of Mormonism mock the LDS while simultaneously complaining that the LDS here are the attackers and mockers.

I am SMUG!!! Not because I am so great.. Not because I am a god in embryo. I am smug that My Lord, MY GOD can do all things. He takes the evil hearts of men and recreates them to be a heart like unto His.. Jesus as revealed in the Bible is someone to be SMUG about.. And when I compare Him with me I am totally awe struck.. And that is just with a description, when I stand before Him I will be ****n away by Him greatness. No Self Righteous smugness in that.. That is reserved for those that only look for a Jesus to help them in their own personal climb toward exaltation, and a place as a fellow god in their own creation.. Biblically I don't see any way to be smug about personal righteousness since God see such as filthy rags.. IHS jim

One critic in this thread called the LDS "smug". You admit to being the smug one.

Thank you for redirecting the attack on Mormons to being a description of yourself.

The LDS SMUG attacks started in the revised first vision story found today in JSH in the PofPG.. The addition especially in verse 19 are a clear attack on our Pastors and our churches.. I can find hundreds of attacks by your later 19th and early 20th century "prophets".. And you tell us that we guilty of attacking the LDS people? No, we attack unbiblical teaching and Mormonism is filled with it.. I attack the unbiblical teaching put out there by anyone.. You don't have to be mormon to be in error but it sure helps.. IHS jim

What do comments from LDS from 180+ years ago have to do with you guys mocking and attacking LDS people today and in this thread? :rolleyes:

James Banta

11-25-2012, 11:17 PM

[Sir;139691]See how the critics do the mocking?

Kind of funny that in the same thread, no less than 3 critics of Mormonism mock the LDS while simultaneously complaining that the LDS here are the attackers and mockers.

Was this some sort of a correction of what I said? I didn't see one so what I said is correct.. Good to have some ground on which we agree..

One critic in this thread called the LDS "smug". You admit to being the smug one.

You BET I am very smug about the Lordship of Jesus, of HIS righteousness, and Him love and forbearance..

What do comments from LDS from 180+ years ago have to do with you guys mocking and attacking LDS people today and in this thread? :rolleyes:

I have no issues with Christian leaders from 200 years ago being stated here as long as the speaker is claiming the ONLY TRUE AUTHORITY from God to make these statements.. When LDS leaders in LDS church history taught in conference that it is required for people to be baptized by Priests of the LDS church in order to gain entrance to the Kingdom of Heaven where the Father rains Haven't I the right to point that teaching out? Of they taught truth the aren't their words as good today as they were then? But what if they taught lies and false doctrine? Then by the authority of Deut 18:20-22 can I not say that those teachers are not to be respected? But that isn't what mormonism has done.. The modern leadership of the LDS church has confirmed that Smith did take women of living men as His wives.. According to Jesus telling us that thinking of adultery is as bad as living in it? And Smith did think about STEALING women from their "worthy" husbands and making them his even if that was in eternity and not in mortality. I think He had relations with all His wives so I said it the way I did for your gullible mind. And Young taught that Adam was our God and not the Father.. Your authority come to you through an adulterer and an idolater.. And yet you come closer to the worship of these men than you do Jesus.. And you put more stock in the word they have taught that agree with modern doctrine than you put in your standard work.. It is shameful that you reject the Word of God some of you saying that it isn't LITERAL.. It is literal and you must be Born Again and that is a birth not a baptism.. Blood is required to purchase salvation, water just doesn't hack it.. IHS jim

glm1978

11-26-2012, 04:06 AM

See what you did there? You avoided my post that proved that your own guy was actually doing the mocking, not the LDS, in the same post that he was charging the LDS of mocking.

And you, in this post, in claiming that the LDS do the mocking and attacking, just "attacked" one of your own, "Alan", who had nothing to do with this conversation but you felt the need to attack him and throw him under the bus.

That's why we LDS simply have to "LOL". Two of you LDS-critics just showed us that while you charge the LDS for attacking people, you actually do that very thing in the very same posts that you make your accusations against others!!!!

Now, since YOU were once LDS, why don't you explain what being born-again means to a Mormon.

Sir, Time to GROW UP! I am not playing this game. I asked YOU to define what Mormonism says being born again means. You, like all the other LDS on here tried to wiggle your way out and turned around and asked ME to define it.

You guys just cannot defend your faith. Thanks for convincing me that I made the right choice by leaving that church forever.

glm1978

11-26-2012, 04:13 AM

To them reverence is being quiet in church.. It has nothing to so with seeing the Greatness of God and our helpless weak place before Him.. That is the reverence they ignore. After all they are gods in embryo.. IHS jim

I can't understand the hate and anger that the mormons have shown on here. When I was LDS we were always taught to show respect to those of other faiths. The LDS church is very quiet because it's filled with folks who are spiritually dead. They claim they are born again and yet can't even tell us what that means because they know they will not get any support from the Scriptures.

TheSword99

11-26-2012, 05:01 AM

Was this some sort of a correction of what I said? I didn't see one so what I said is correct.. Good to have some ground on which we agree..

You BET I am very smug about the Lordship of Jesus, of HIS righteousness, and Him love and forbearance..

I have no issues worth Christian leaders from 200 years ago being stated here as long as the speaker is claiming the ONLY TRUE AUTHORITY from God to make these statements.. When LDS leaders in LDS church history taught in conference that it is required for people to be baptized by Priests of the LDS church in order to gain entrance to the Kingdom of Heaven where the Father rains Haven't I the right to point that teaching out? Of they taught truth the aren't their words as good today as they were then? But what if they taught lies and false doctrine? Then by the authority of Deut 18:20-22 can I not say that those teachers are not to be respected? But that isn't what mormonism has done.. The modern leadership of the LDS church has confirmed that Smith did take women of living men as His wives.. According to Jesus telling us that thinking of adultery is as bad as living in it? And Smith did think about STEALING women from their "worthy" husbands and making them his even if that was in eternity and not in mortality. I think He had relations with all His wives so I said it the way I did for your gullible mind. And Young taught that Adam was our God and not the Father.. Your authority come to you through an adulterer and an idolater.. And yet you come closer to the worship of these men than you do Jesus.. And you put more stock in the word they have taught that agree with modern doctrine than you put in your standard work.. It is shameful that you reject the Word of God some of you saying that it isn't LITERAL.. It is literal and you must be Born Again and that is a birth not a baptism.. Blood is required to purchase salvation, water just doesn't hack it.. IHS jim

I can't help but wonder if Joseph Smith had lived to a ripe old age and his successor had remained faithful to all of Smith's teachings, if the lds today would more resemble the flds.

The mormons hate it when we force them to look at their own sordid history. Yet we are not being "critical," but truthful.

TheSword99

11-26-2012, 05:13 AM

One critic in this thread called the LDS "smug". You admit to being the smug one.

It is smugness to believe you will be a god someday and rule your very own planet, when God said your knee will bow and your tongue will confess Christ as LORD. That is what you and everyone else will be doing, whether above the earth or below. It's God who will get all the glory, not you or I.

You and the other lds are critics of Christianity and lovers of doctrines of men. Your church has exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man.. (Romans 1:23)

You can't even tell us what being born again means. You have absolutely nothing to add to this thread.

Sir

11-26-2012, 10:15 AM

Sir, Time to GROW UP! I am not playing this game. I asked YOU to define what Mormonism says being born again means. You, like all the other LDS on here tried to wiggle your way out and turned around and asked ME to define it.

You guys just cannot defend your faith. Thanks for convincing me that I made the right choice by leaving that church forever.

But you were once Mormon. So it seems silly to ask me what Mormonism teaches about something since you were once in the group. It's kind of like a guy who divorces his wife and then asks his ex-wife's husband things about her that he would already have known when he was married to her. :p

I didn't convince you that leaving the church was the right choice, you are simply looking for reasons to justify doing that. True understandning of gospel doctrine and the Holy Spirit should be enough for someone to know they made the right decisions about their faith, but if it makes you feel better to create reasons to justify your decision that's what you gotta do.

I can't understand the hate and anger that the mormons have shown on here. When I was LDS we were always taught to show respect to those of other faiths.

Ironically, it is the critics like yourself that appear to be angry - looking for reasons to tear down our faith and to justify your own feelings about it. And ironically it is you, the critic, who is hereposting on a forum devoted to tearing down a faith. And yet you want to accuse the LDS of not being respectful of other faiths. :confused: Maybe that's why you left the LDS church, because they teach to be respectful of others' faiths and you couldn't live by that.:confused:

Sir

11-26-2012, 10:16 AM

It is smugness to believe you will be a god someday and rule your very own planet, when God said your knee will bow and your tongue will confess Christ as LORD. That is what you and everyone else will be doing, whether above the earth or below. It's God who will get all the glory, not you or I.

You and the other lds are critics of Christianity and lovers of doctrines of men. Your church has exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man.. (Romans 1:23)

You can't even tell us what being born again means. You have absolutely nothing to add to this thread.

Sure I can.

But in your post you show us that you don't really care what LDS believe, you simply want to attack them and mock them and to 'tell' us what you think we believe.Your eyes, ears, and mind are closed to anything that will go against your preconceived ideas.

TheSword99

11-26-2012, 10:44 AM

Sure I can.

But in your post you show us that you don't really care what LDS believe, you simply want to attack them and mock them and to 'tell' us what you think we believe.Your eyes, ears, and mind are closed to anything that will go against your preconceived ideas.

The fact is you have an impossible gospel. You are unable to obey all the laws, ordinances and commandments of the lds church. You don't even have ***urance of where you will end up when you die. Your church teaches it will be one of three places. Yet two of those kingdoms of glory do not even include the presence of (or access to) God the Father.The Scriptures tells us that spending eternity separated from the presence God is not salvation; it is ****ation.

I do care what Mormons believe. Why else do you think I pray for you guys every single night. Which is probably something you would never do.

TheSword99

11-26-2012, 10:45 AM

Sure I can.

.

Ok, then tell us how you define being born again.

Sir

11-26-2012, 10:54 AM

I do care what Mormons believe. Why else do you think I pray for you guys every single night. Which is probably something you would never do.

While I understand the need to make a dig at us LDS (and yet we are being accused of being hateful and angry...lol), I will have you know that I DO pray for us guys every night! :D

Sir

11-26-2012, 10:59 AM

Ok, then tell us how you define being born again.

Change of heart.
Recognition of Jesus as our Savior and our need for Him and His atonement.
A desire to follow Him.
A willingness to mourn with those who mourn.
Comfort those that stand in need of comfort.
To follow the example of Jesus and be baptized for the remission of sins.
To receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
To place our faith in Jesus, obey his commandments, and to endure to the end.

James Banta

11-26-2012, 04:13 PM

Change of heart.
Recognition of Jesus as our Savior and our need for Him and His atonement.
A desire to follow Him.
A willingness to mourn with those who mourn.
Comfort those that stand in need of comfort.
To follow the example of Jesus and be baptized for the remission of sins.
To receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
To place our faith in Jesus, obey his commandments, and to endure to the end.

Look at each of these "requirements" lets see who is responsible to complete them.
Change of heart. This one I am not sure of.. Are you teaching we must change our hearts or is God doing it?

Recognition of Jesus as our Savior and our need for Him and His atonement. Yes this is something we must do.. A work of our own will..

A desire to follow Him. Again clearly something we must do

A willingness to mourn with those who mourn. Yes this is man's work to accomplish

Comfort those that stand in need of comfort. Something we must do..

To follow the example of Jesus and be baptized for the remission of sins. This is clearly a work of a man invented law

To receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. The Holy Spirit isn't given as it was at Pentecost? We have to receive it? Let me guess from the hands of men, not from God directly..

To place our faith in Jesus, obey his commandments, and to endure to the end. We need to have faith, We need to obey, we must endure.. Doesn't God do anything?

That is what I have been saying all along sir.. Mormons, at least you, don't believe that a person can be born again in the world.. The requirement to keep the Lord's commandments and endure to the end in all the requirements you have listed makes being Born Again in this life impossible.. How else could you endure to the end if you were at the end?

John 3:3-7
Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

The p***age teaches that we are to be BORN of the water and the Spirit.. Not baptized of water and Spirit.. This is a second birth. The first one of water, a natural birth, the second of Spirit a Spiritual birth.. There is no keeping commandments in these requirements, no enduring to the end. These are made invented requirements for the free gift of rebirth offered through faith in Jesus alone. This p***age goes on to confirm that in verses 15, and 16.. No where is there one word of anything we can do to be born of the Spirit.. It is all done by God for those that believe.. That can and is done daily By God for those that are being saved..

Do you also believe that it is the believer that changed his heart? Again the scripture teaches that that also is God's work..

Psalms 51:10
Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.

Even the change of our hearts is a work of God and has nothing to do with our efforts.. You can stop exalting men and turn and see who is already exalted.. JESUS.. IHS jim

James Banta

11-26-2012, 04:48 PM

I can't understand the hate and anger that the mormons have shown on here. When I was LDS we were always taught to show respect to those of other faiths. The LDS church is very quiet because it's filled with folks who are spiritually dead. They claim they are born again and yet can't even tell us what that means because they know they will not get any support from the Scriptures.

YES! as I have shown here the mormon idea of being Born Again is everything they must DO.. But what does a birth either natural of Spiritual have to do with the new born's efforts? Even if a baby is born dead it is still born.. And what effort could a dead child make to accomplish it's birth.. A child born into this world has nothing to say about it's birth, it had no power to accomplish it's birth or prevent it.. The spiritual birth is the same way.. We who have been chosen of God had nothing to do with our spiritual birth.. It was 100% the work and effort of God. We can't obey enough commandments. We can be baptized enough, and we can't endure to the end in our own purity and call it sufficient.

One of mormonism greatest weaknesses is that it teaches that very thing.. It is a soul destroying teaching invented by evil men to control their minds and hearts. Leading then ever away from Jesus and the liberty He has given us to Love Him and toward the glorification of men.. IHS jim

Sir

11-26-2012, 05:44 PM

We who have been chosen of God had nothing to do with our spiritual birth.. It was 100% the work and effort of God.IHS jim

Well, okie dokie....you take issue with everything I wrote.

You claim that being spiritually born-again is only something that we have to wait for God to do 100% for us.

So instead of attacking and demeaning the LDS, why not go ask God why he hasn't chosen us and what he is waiting for to make us spiritually reborn. Looks like you are claiming it is all God's fault, not ours. :)

James Banta

11-26-2012, 08:58 PM

Well, okie dokie....you take issue with everything I wrote.

You claim that being spiritually born-again is only something that we have to wait for God to do 100% for us.

So instead of attacking and demeaning the LDS, why not go ask God why he hasn't chosen us and what he is waiting for to make us spiritually reborn. Looks like you are claiming it is all God's fault, not ours. :)

I have He told me this:

Matthew 22:1-14
And Jesus answered and spake unto them again by parables, and said,
The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,
And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.
Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage.
But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise:
And the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them.
But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.
Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy.
Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage.
So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests.
And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:
And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.
Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
For many are called, but few are chosen.

God wants us all but still knows that all too many in His omniscient knowledge will not ever submit to Him but demand that they gain salvation their own way and will not submit to His Way.. That is exactly what you said your meaning of being Born Again is your way and not His way.. IHS jim

BTW I wouldn't correct you ALL the time if you weren't wrong ALL the time..

Sir

11-26-2012, 10:05 PM

God wants us all but still knows that all too many in His omniscient knowledge will not ever submit to Him but demand that they gain salvation their own way and will not submit to His Way..

If being spiritually reborn is 100% of God's doing, as you claimed above, then if people do not submit to God then it is God's fault.

You can't have it both ways.

That is exactly what you said your meaning of being Born Again is your way and not His way.. IHS jim

Actually, people can read for themselves what "exactly" I said (the beauty of written language), and it isn't what you wanted to interpret it to be.

BTW I wouldn't correct you ALL the time if you weren't wrong ALL the time..

Oh....OH.....HA!....ZING!!!!......so clever, you think you are.

Here's a BTW of my own:

BTW, it is funny that you had to add an "attack" on me, considering this is the thread where the LDS are called the attackers and yet it is the LDS-critics that seem to be the ones who cannot post without adding a little jab. Interesting.

TheSword99

11-27-2012, 07:15 AM

glm1978

11-27-2012, 08:48 AM

James Banta

11-28-2012, 10:12 AM

[Sir;139721]If being spiritually reborn is 100% of God's doing, as you claimed above, then if people do not submit to God then it is God's fault.

You can't have it both ways.

There you go again judging God for what He knows about us instead of believing what He has done.. He made it possible for all to come and receive life. But because He hasn't forced you and for that matter all mankind to accept Him you want to blame Him because He knows who will and who will not submit to His grace.. He has chosen all who will come to Him. Those that come to Him He will in NO WAY CAST OUT.. But those that won't come by an act of their own will are lost because of God's choice? No, That is their own doing and by an act of God's grace He allows men to reject Him and His gifts.. That is an extreme act of His love as He sees the consequences of that choice.

Actually, people can read for themselves what "exactly" I said (the beauty of written language), and it isn't what you wanted to interpret it to be.

It can be the pits too when your words convey ****able thought such as "if people do not submit to God then it is God's fault."

Here's a BTW of my own:

BTW, it is funny that you had to add an "attack" on me, considering this is the thread where the LDS are called the attackers and yet it is the LDS-critics that seem to be the ones who cannot post without adding a little jab. Interesting.

Unless you want to make a statement that supports the EVIL doctrines of mormonism against the Biblical statements made about any point made here by Christians this statement it is worthless.. Here, let me help you with an example.. Mormonism teaches a gospel of grace and works. Correct? but the Bible teaches that such a thing is not possible (Romans 11:6).. But I would have to believe that you see that p***age as yet example of a p***age not to be taken literally? IHS jim

By the way being wrong is not a personal weakness ot a lack of character it is just an indication that you are not willing to conform to the teachings of the Holy Spirit and receive His truth..

James Banta

11-28-2012, 10:22 AM

Of course.

You Are???? Have you already "endured to the end in righteousness".. When I saw this included in a list of what LDS believes makes a person Born Again it almost made me cry.. Now here you are claiming to be righteous in your own efforts.. Soon again because you are so righteous in your life by your own actions I suspect because I claim no righteousness through my own actions, you will call me self righteous as many LDS already have.. Are you sure you have been Born Again? That you have already endured to the end in righteousness?

Is this not what you said about being Born Again?

Change of heart.
Recognition of Jesus as our Savior and our need for Him and His atonement.
A desire to follow Him.
A willingness to mourn with those who mourn.
Comfort those that stand in need of comfort.
To follow the example of Jesus and be baptized for the remission of sins.
To receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Change of heart.
Recognition of Jesus as our Savior and our need for Him and His atonement.
A desire to follow Him.
A willingness to mourn with those who mourn.
Comfort those that stand in need of comfort.
To follow the example of Jesus and be baptized for the remission of sins.
To receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
To place our faith in Jesus, obey his commandments, and to endure to the end.

Did you say that it is required to place our faith in Jesus, obey his commandments, and to endure to the end. When did you do this in it's completion? If that is a requirement, as you stated then you are not yet born again..

IHS jim

Sir

11-28-2012, 01:26 PM

There you go again judging God for what He knows about us instead of believing what He has done.. He made it possible for all to come and receive life. But because He hasn't forced you and for that matter all mankind to accept Him you want to blame Him because He knows who will and who will not submit to His grace.. He has chosen all who will come to Him. Those that come to Him He will in NO WAY CAST OUT.. But those that won't come by an act of their own will are lost because of God's choice? No, That is their own doing and by an act of God's grace He allows men to reject Him and His gifts.. That is an extreme act of His love as He sees the consequences of that choice.

Yours is a case of heads I win, tails you lose scenerio. That's why it is pointless to debate it with you. You make the claim that only God can allow someone to accept Him by giving him His Holy Spirit. But then you say that if God DOESN'T choose that person to be saved then it is the fault of the person for not choosing God.

This isn't judging God, as you are quick to accuse. It is pointing out the flaw in the theology you are peddling. One must choose God to be saved, but one cannot choose God unless God chooses him. So your own theology means that God created the majority of his human creations simply to cast them into Hell and burn in torment forever.

RealFakeHair

11-28-2012, 02:42 PM

What is interesting is that there are more and more people calling themselves "born again Mormons." Yet they believe in salvation by faith alone in Christ alone without all the added stuff of the LDS church, just as Paul taught.

Anyone, mormon or not calls upon the Name of Jesus of the Holy Bible, and believes as in St John 3:16, in their hearts and mind they are IMHO born again, by the Holy Spirit of the Holy Bible, amen.

TheSword99

11-28-2012, 03:44 PM

TheSword99

11-28-2012, 03:55 PM

Sir

11-28-2012, 05:28 PM

The reason why the lds on here say "of course" they're born again is because they erroneously believe they are "safe" because they belong to the mormon church. They have been taught that upon death they will automatically go to one of 3 levels of heavens. Hell is something they believe they are exempt from.

That is your opinion. As a Mormon, I can safely say that my beliefs and views are not what you said above.

They make the claim to be the fastest growing church, yet Jesus said the gate to heaven is narrow and only a few will find it.

Seems like a non-sequitur. But here is a response: the LDS church doesn't clam to be the fastest growing church, but it is usually listed in the top 10 of the lists of fastest growing churches.

Secondly, if there are roughly 14 million members of the LDS church, that would be MUCH fewer than the hundreds of millions of other Christians. So you are actually making the argument FOR Mormonism in your attempted attack above. :)

James Banta

11-28-2012, 10:47 PM

Yours is a case of heads I win, tails you lose scenerio. That's why it is pointless to debate it with you. You make the claim that only God can allow someone to accept Him by giving him His Holy Spirit. But then you say that if God DOESN'T choose that person to be saved then it is the fault of the person for not choosing God.

This isn't judging God, as you are quick to accuse. It is pointing out the flaw in the theology you are peddling. One must choose God to be saved, but one cannot choose God unless God chooses him. So your own theology means that God created the majority of his human creations simply to cast them into Hell and burn in torment forever.

I didn't say that God doesn't chose us.. He does based on knowing that we will accept His grace and receive the life Jesus offers all men based on His work completed on the cross.. Maybe you should respond to me any more you don't seem able to understand the truth I tell you about who and what God is.. If you can't understand that God is not a being locked into time and He actually knows the beginning and the end because He is present is all time then you aren't able to understand the truth about what I AM that I AM is all about.. If you can't understand that you can't know God and you deny yourself eternal life:

John 17:3
And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

So until you are able to at least understand the timeless nature of God you should even speak about Him.. Even our Jr Church children can understand this simple attribute of God.. IHS jim

TheSword99

11-29-2012, 05:20 AM

That is your opinion. As a Mormon, I can safely say that my beliefs and views are not what you said above.

Seems like a non-sequitur. But here is a response: the LDS church doesn't clam to be the fastest growing church, but it is usually listed in the top 10 of the lists of fastest growing churches.

Secondly, if there are roughly 14 million members of the LDS church, that would be MUCH fewer than the hundreds of millions of other Christians. So you are actually making the argument FOR Mormonism in your attempted attack above. :)

How conveniently you ignore the fact that those statistics are never accurate because it is not known exactly how many have left the lds church because having one's name removed is a long tedious process and full of red tape that many never bother, they just leave. So the stats include them as still members.

Then you have those who no longer believe in the lds church but stay because they fear losing family, ***s, etc. This is because of the control your church tries to wield on its members. Its the same with the JWs who shun those who leave. The lds just labels them apostates who will join satan in the lake of fire...:rolleyes:

TheSword99

11-29-2012, 05:33 AM

That is your opinion. As a Mormon, I can safely say that my beliefs and views are not what you said above.

Then why don't you share what your beliefs and views are. Do mormons believe they could go to hell? Is it possible? Or do they not believe in the Holy Bible's teaching on hell? Do you believe you will automatically go to some level of heaven? Is that the lds salvation that all will be resurrected?

Two of these kingdoms of glory do not even include the presence of (or access to) God the Father. For Christians, spending eternity separated from God's presence is not salvation; it is ****ation. Which is what the Scriptures teaches. You guys don't even have ***urance of exactly where you will end up. Being born again means nothing less than the fullness of salvation. We Christians have ***urance that we are acceptable to the Lord. Whoever has the Son, has life. (1 John 5:11-13)

glm1978

11-29-2012, 06:31 AM

That is your opinion. As a Mormon, I can safely say that my beliefs and views are not what you said above.

Seems like a non-sequitur. But here is a response: the LDS church doesn't clam to be the fastest growing church, but it is usually listed in the top 10 of the lists of fastest growing churches.

Secondly, if there are roughly 14 million members of the LDS church, that would be MUCH fewer than the hundreds of millions of other Christians. So you are actually making the argument FOR Mormonism in your attempted attack above. :)

Since Mormonism teaches that non LDS will have a chance to hear the Mormon gospel after death, wouldn't that mean many would get "saved" and end up in one of the three heavens? Seems like hell will be nearly empty. But the LDS does not believe in the biblical hell. So, how is it that many are headed there?

The bible is true, hell is real and many will end up there.

glm1978

11-29-2012, 06:37 AM

How conveniently you ignore the fact that those statistics are never accurate because it is not known exactly how many have left the lds church because having one's name removed is a long tedious process and full of red tape that many never bother, they just leave. So the stats include them as still members.

Then you have those who no longer believe in the lds church but stay because they fear losing family, ***s, etc. This is because of the control your church tries to wield on its members. Its the same with the JWs who shun those who leave. The lds just labels them apostates who will join satan in the lake of fire...:rolleyes:

It took nearly 2 years before they finally removed my name. I knew of a lady who had to hire legal ***istance to force them to take her name off. This is what I love about the Christian churches. You can leave one and join another and nobody thinks twice or tries to exert any control. The Christian churches are basically united in the tenets of Christianity.

James Banta

11-29-2012, 11:52 AM

It took nearly 2 years before they finally removed my name. I knew of a lady who had to hire legal ***istance to force them to take her name off. This is what I love about the Christian churches. You can leave one and join another and nobody thinks twice or tries to exert any control. The Christian churches are basically united in the tenets of Christianity.

It was easy for me.. I took a Christian tract to all my neighbors. That got their attention and I was out completely in one month..

One door and only one and yet it's sides are two. I'm on the inside on which side are you.. then an invitation to come to Jesus and be forgiven. And because of that a charge of apostasy was served in me.. I admit being an apostate from mormonism, but from Jesus.. NEVER, in fact they are the ones in apostasy.. IHS jim

Sir

11-29-2012, 01:19 PM

Maybe you should respond to me any more you don't seem able to understand the truth I tell you about who and what God is..

Maybe I "should"? :D

So until you are able to at least understand the timeless nature of God you should even speak about Him

I "should"? :D

If your position is that people "should[n't]" speak about things that they do not understand, you would be left mute and we shouldn't see another post from you ever again. :)

Sir

11-29-2012, 01:23 PM

How conveniently you ignore the fact that those statistics are never accurate because it is not known exactly how many have left the lds church because having one's name removed is a long tedious process and full of red tape that many never bother, they just leave. So the stats include them as still members.

Then you have those who no longer believe in the lds church but stay because they fear losing family, ***s, etc. This is because of the control your church tries to wield on its members. Its the same with the JWs who shun those who leave. The lds just labels them apostates who will join satan in the lake of fire...:rolleyes:

The point was 14 million is FEWER than hundreds of millions. If there are only 5 million believing Mormons of the 14 million, that would be even FEWER, thus your contention that Jesus claimed that there would be few who are actually saved bodes even BETTER for the LDS.

I don't think you thought this through to the logical end. :D

RealFakeHair

11-29-2012, 01:30 PM

The point was 14 million is FEWER than hundreds of millions. If there are only 5 million believing Mormons of the 14 million, that would be even FEWER, thus your contention that Jesus claimed that there would be few who are actually saved bodes even BETTER for the LDS.

I don't think you thought this through to the logical end. :D

Every 18 year old mormon boy wants to be chosen to go to LaBule France, but most end up in places like Detroit.

TheSword99

11-29-2012, 01:36 PM

The point was 14 million is FEWER than hundreds of millions. If there are only 5 million believing Mormons of the 14 million, that would be even FEWER, thus your contention that Jesus claimed that there would be few who are actually saved bodes even BETTER for the LDS.

I don't think you thought this through to the logical end. :D

No worry, I am ***ured of my salvation which no lds can ever be. Salvation is not found in a church nor through any consent of Joe Smith. Nor will there be any 2nd chances after death. It's one fallacy after another that you have bought into.

Sir

11-29-2012, 03:36 PM

No worry, I am ***ured of my salvation which no lds can ever be.

Glad you feel that you were part of the lucky lotto. DId you also play the Powerball yesterday?

Salvation is not found in a church nor through any consent of Joe Smith. Nor will there be any 2nd chances after death. It's one fallacy after another that you have bought into.

Given your beliefs above, it is apparently you that has bought into many fallacies and misinformation about the LDS. But such is to be expected from those who are the most vocal about attacking it.

Sir

11-29-2012, 03:39 PM

Every 18 year old mormon boy wants to be chosen to go to LaBule France, but most end up in places like Detroit.

Funny, I've never met a boy who had a desire to go to LaBule, France.

Missionaries go where they are needed.

God's children live in Detroit too. :)

I hear your racist undertones, though, in making the comparison.

James Banta

11-29-2012, 08:42 PM

Funny, I've never met a boy who had a desire to go to LaBule, France.

Missionaries go where they are needed.

God's children live in Detroit too. :)

I hear your racist undertones, though, in making the comparison.

This is LaBule, France

http://en.labaule.com/images_annuaire/15_64_1_labaule.jpg

This is Detroit

http://img.timeinc.net/time/photoessays/2009/reliques/reliques_06.jpg

How could wanting to be sent to LaBule instead of Detroit possible be seen as racist? Are you saying that only caucasians are allowed in LaBule while only non caucasians are in Detroit?

By the photo evidence, by reputation I for one would rather be almost anywhere other than Detroit.. Knock off the name calling.. Racism has much more to do with the acts of mormonism than does a desire to be in a beautiful place like LaBule instead of a city that looks like the aftermath of a war as does Detroit.. IHS jim

TheSword99

11-30-2012, 05:39 AM

TheSword99

11-30-2012, 05:41 AM

Glad you feel that you were part of the lucky lotto. DId you also play the Powerball yesterday?

Given your beliefs above, it is apparently you that has bought into many fallacies and misinformation about the LDS. But such is to be expected from those who are the most vocal about attacking it.

Then you mock the word of God.

“And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.” (1 John 5:11-13)

Sir

11-30-2012, 11:56 AM

Then you mock the word of God.

“And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.” (1 John 5:11-13)

No, people who falsly claim to be securely saved right now are the mockers of God. Many "Christians" fall away who once said they were "saved", but the only excuse that you can give is that "they just weren't really saved in the first place". You give yourself a false sense of security and then mock God by thinking that once you've uttered the words "I believe in Jesus" that nothing you do after that will have any impact on your salvation.

That's the real mockery.

jdjhere

11-30-2012, 03:03 PM

Sir stated: "No, people who falsly claim to be securely saved right now are the mockers of God."

I don't mock God and I KNOW I am saved, Sir, but I am eternally grateful to Jesus Christ for saving me and what He suffered FOR ME on the cross. He offered it and I accepted it. I don't mock God, I am only grateful for Eternal Life and that Jesus Christ loved me enough to do it. It only humbles me and makes me love Him.

(By the way, did you ever get that proof for me that the artifacts you were trying to sell people were indeed from Lamanites and Nephites?? You know, the war clubs and pottery?? Just curious...)

TheSword99

11-30-2012, 03:12 PM

No, people who falsly claim to be securely saved right now are the mockers of God. Many "Christians" fall away who once said they were "saved", but the only excuse that you can give is that "they just weren't really saved in the first place". You give yourself a false sense of security and then mock God by thinking that once you've uttered the words "I believe in Jesus" that nothing you do after that will have any impact on your salvation.

That's the real mockery.

Where does the Holy Bible say one can lose his salvation? Once were his, Jesus said nothing can snatch us from his hand. As for false sense of security, I guess you don't understand the scripture p***age I gave you.

Sir

11-30-2012, 06:36 PM

(By the way, did you ever get that proof for me that the artifacts you were trying to sell people were indeed from Lamanites and Nephites?? You know, the war clubs and pottery?? Just curious...)

Um...I've no idea what you are even talking about here. :confused:

James Banta

12-01-2012, 10:20 AM

Um...I've no idea what you are even talking about here. :confused:

I don't blame you a bit for this denial.. It is a violation of the antiquities acts to possess such artifacts.. To bad you let it out in the first place that you have such things.. IHS jim

theway

12-01-2012, 11:39 AM

I don't blame you a bit for this denial.. It is a violation of the antiquities acts to possess such artifacts.. To bad you let it out in the first place that you have such things.. IHS jimPoor James... you are wrong yet again. Are you ever right about anything?

Not only was it not SIR who said it; but I already proved that it has nothing to do with the antiquities act since it was not done on American soil.
America can not write laws for other countries.

James Banta

12-01-2012, 12:09 PM

Poor James... you are wrong yet again. Are you ever right about anything?

Not only was it not SIR who said it; but I already proved that it has nothing to do with the antiquities act since it was not done on American soil.
America can not write laws for other countries.

More wisdom from our LDS champions :) The antiquities act includes the importation of native American artifacts.. This not even taking into account the immorality of grave robbing still makes such activities against the law.. Poor old s t u p i d jim.. He can't get anything right.. Sure glade you are here to straighten me out.. IHS jim

Sir

12-01-2012, 04:10 PM

I don't blame you a bit for this denial.. It is a violation of the antiquities acts to possess such artifacts.. To bad you let it out in the first place that you have such things.. IHS jim

I don't blame you a bit.... ( to use your words)

You are confused yet again.

Theway seems to have straightened you out (and me since I still had no idea what you guys were talking about!).

I also see that you were self-depricating, James, by calling yourself s t u p i d. But that isn't the problem. The problem is you make error after error, and in this case a pretty blatent one. Yet you don't admit to mistakes you simply try to divert the attention away from them and move on, not realizing that doing that destroys any credibility you think you have.

So when you said "Poor old s t u p i d jim.. He can't get anything right.. Sure glade[sic] you are here to straighten me out..", you should be thankful that there are still people that will give you the time of day to show you your errors for your correction.

theway

12-01-2012, 04:22 PM

More wisdom from our LDS champions :) The antiquities act includes the importation of native American artifacts.. This not even taking into account the immorality of grave robbing still makes such activities against the law.. Poor old s t u p i d jim.. He can't get anything right.. Sure glade you are here to straighten me out.. IHS jimOnce again... NATIVE AMERICANS IN THE USA! We never did anything in the USA. Also grave robbing only applies to items under 200 years old. We had permission from all governments involved, and 95% of the artifacts went to museums; so yours is just a little wishful thinking.

Time you just stick to things you know... BTW what is it that you do know? it doesn't seem to be the LDS or the Bible!

alanmolstad

12-01-2012, 09:54 PM

kinda a dull topic here.....

Not much conversation about the bible...

jdjhere

12-03-2012, 12:53 AM

James Banta

12-03-2012, 10:40 PM

Once again... NATIVE AMERICANS IN THE USA! We never did anything in the USA. Also grave robbing only applies to items under 200 years old. We had permission from all governments involved, and 95% of the artifacts went to museums; so yours is just a little wishful thinking.

Time you just stick to things you know... BTW what is it that you do know? it doesn't seem to be the LDS or the Bible!

Here is a S T U P I D idea of mine.. It doesn't matter where you rob graves, it is still immoral!! I don't care of you had the permission of a government it was still immoral. I have people buried in an abandon cemetery in south western Montana. No one has used that cemetery for going on 110 years.. I don't want it touched! It is sacred ground. Even if the Government allowed robbers to come in I would be seriously offended by any such action. Their remains even the jewelry on their hands is sacred and must never be taken. Not to display for any person curiosity, and not for the curiosity of those wanting to see the possessions or remains of western pioneers displayed in some museum.. Both are immoral. Both are still robbery.. The US government has recognized that even if some of it citizens haven't.. Just because some government allows grave robbery doesn't make it moral..

I know nothing don't you remember I said I am S T U P I D.. You are the one that is smart.. Trouble is I base my doctrinal discussions on what the Bible teaches.. What do you base yours on again? Oh that's right your testimony.. Remember there is a way that SEEMS right to mere flesh but the end of that is death (Proverbs 14:12).. All you offer is what seems right to you.. Therefore all you teach is death.. IHS jim

James Banta

12-03-2012, 10:48 PM

kinda a dull topic here.....

Not much conversation about the bible...

No this is about the immorality of this LDS persons actions.. He should be ashamed!!! IHS jim

James Banta

12-03-2012, 10:51 PM

Response to #102 Sorry Sir, it was TheWay I think. I will find it.

TheWay, did you ever get that proof for me that the artifacts you were trying to sell people were indeed from Lamanites and Nephites?? You know, the war clubs and pottery?? Just curious..

The personal property of the dead? The immorality of selling them because to stole then from a grave yard.. Nasty dirty way to make money of you ask me.. Grave robbing!!! Only the lowest of the low would do such things.. It's not like opening up an ancient city and learning about a lost civilization.. He is stealing from the dead.. IHS jim

James Banta

12-03-2012, 10:59 PM

I don't blame you a bit.... ( to use your words)

You are confused yet again.

Theway seems to have straightened you out (and me since I still had no idea what you guys were talking about!).

I also see that you were self-depricating, James, by calling yourself s t u p i d. But that isn't the problem. The problem is you make error after error, and in this case a pretty blatent one. Yet you don't admit to mistakes you simply try to divert the attention away from them and move on, not realizing that doing that destroys any credibility you think you have.

So when you said "Poor old s t u p i d jim.. He can't get anything right.. Sure glade[sic] you are here to straighten me out..", you should be thankful that there are still people that will give you the time of day to show you your errors for your correction.

Don't bother I would never take correction from a ghoul.. IHS jim

dberrie2000

12-18-2012, 01:00 PM

I don't mock God and I KNOW I am saved, Sir, but I am eternally grateful to Jesus Christ for saving me and what He suffered FOR ME on the cross. He offered it and I accepted it. I don't mock God, I am only grateful for Eternal Life and that Jesus Christ loved me enough to do it. It only humbles me and makes me love Him.

Regardless of what people claim--here is the doctrine that Christ taught:

John 5:28-29----King James Version (KJV)

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation.

Christ taught that all men--following death--will be judged according to works--and that for life or ****ation.

And that enduring to the end is a requirement in order to be saved:

Matthew 10:22----King James Version (KJV)

22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

Billyray

12-19-2012, 10:27 AM

Regardless of what people claim--here is the doctrine that Christ taught:

John 5:28-29----King James Version (KJV)

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation.

Who is good according to Christ?

dberrie2000

12-21-2012, 08:12 AM

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
Regardless of what people claim--here is the doctrine that Christ taught:

John 5:28-29----King James Version (KJV)

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation.

Who is good according to Christ?

And how are you relating that to the fact that the Bible records Christ's testimony as all being judged according to works--after death--and that for life or ****ation?

Is this the cancel and cover program of the faith alone?

Billyray

01-04-2013, 08:27 PM

And how are you relating that to the fact that the Bible records Christ's testimony as all being judged according to works--after death--and that for life or ****ation?

Simple. If you take Jesus at his word that none of us are good then you will realized that our rigtheousness comes from the imputed righteousness of Christ--not our own righteousness based on our works.

James Banta

01-05-2013, 09:21 AM

Simple. If you take Jesus at his word that none of us are good then you will realized that our rigtheousness comes from the imputed righteousness of Christ--not our own righteousness based on our works.

The mormons refuse to believe the whole Bible. Instead they go for their proof text and then they say they believe the Bible more than any other people..

The problem is more then believing that all will be judged it is for whose work we are judged for..

Isaiah 53:4-6
Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

Romans 4:22-25
And therefore it was imputed to him (Abraham) for righteousness.
Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;
But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
Who was delivered for our offenses, and was raised again for our justification.

2Cor 5:21
For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

If we believe the Bible as the LDS say they do the we must believe that on Him was all sin laid. that those who believe have been imputed with His righteousness, that we can be made the righteousness of God thus fulfilling the commandment to be perfect even as the Father in heaven is perfect..

In this when Jesus shed His blood on the cross it was the believers judgment he was taking.. We have been judged in Him, found guilty, and executed for our sin, all in Him.. And in our faith He became our sin and we become His righteousness.. That is GOOD NEWS, That is GOSPEL.. This is the message that the mormons deny. The clear message of the entire Bible.. Instead of acceting His righteousness they work hard to establish their own an will not submit to the righteousness of God. Such is the wisdom of mormonism, such in the wisdom of the world. IHS jim

TheSword99

01-06-2013, 04:44 AM

James Banta

01-06-2013, 09:12 AM

I have been on other Mormonism forums, such as CARM, and it's unbelievable what the lds say about being born again. Some of them claim that God revealed to them that they were OK the first time! This is arrogant pride which God hates. He opposes the proud.

I believe it.. The god of mormonism contradicts the God of the Bible at every turn.. Jesus (the God of the Bible) tells us that we MUST BE BORN AGAIN. That our first birth, our natural birth, is NOT sufficient.. We must also be born spiritually from above..

It is important not to get these births confused with baptism. Baptism is an ordinance that is commanded by Jesus. It is as important to obey as to be honest, to love our neighbor, and obey Him.. We, his children t]should always be obedient, problem is that our flesh is at war with Him and insists on turning away from He at every opportunity.. In the newness of our spiritual birth we long to conform to Him is all our ways. This is WAR. I pray daily that the spirit wins but all to often the flesh dominates.. For this I lean on the promises of God that He has laid my sins on Jesus and given me His righteousness to replace that sin.. I, above all, need the transfusion of His righteousness constantly.. I praise Him that I have this ***urance through the New Birth.. IHS jim

alanmolstad

03-11-2013, 08:28 AM

You can block me, BillyRay, glm1978 .I did not block you sword....if it ever does come to that point however it will only do so because people fail to believe my warnings.

I blocked ErikErik only after I warned him and warned him and still he would not believe me....
I blocked Billy only after I warned him and warned him and still he did not believe me or care.
I just blocked glm1978 only after many, many warnings...

Once I block their posts from my screen like ErikErik's I really dont care what final posts they may have wanted me to receive.
"It's too late dude"....

They had their chance, they were warned, and they decided to not pay attention to my warnings and so Im really dont care what else they might have to say to me in the future...

But in the end the people I have blocked seem to have no interest in having me read their words so I dont really mind blocking them at all.
If they have such a point of view then better off without them I say!,,,,LOL

I think the use of the "Igrore" setting of this forum is way underused.
This under use of IGNORE is why some forums get out of control and see all manner of personal attacks and bickerings.
People just expect to get away with whatever they post.

When I warn someone that if they keep it up I will place their name on IGNORE they just laugh at the very suggestion.
No one expects me to be serious because no one they run into on message forums is serious.

But Im serious.

When I warn someone that if they keep it up I will place their name on ignore Im very serious...

I always give the person an out....a way to quietly change their ways.
But in most cases people just dont believe me....they dont have any history of seeing people on message forums sticking to their guns and requiring others to follow the agreed rules.

I require people follow the rules to have their words appear on my computer screen.

Sir

03-11-2013, 10:33 AM

They had their chance, they were warned, and they decided to not pay attention to my warnings and so Im really dont care what else they might have to say to me in the future...

I require people follow the rules to have their words appear on my computer screen.

God-complex.

No wonder alan is pretty much only seeing his own posts on the screen. LOL

alanmolstad

03-11-2013, 12:11 PM

God-complex.

No wonder alan is pretty much only seeing his own posts on the screen. LOL
its about maintaining order according to the rules that all agreed to.

We should require people to keep their word here.
We all gave our word that we would follow a set of rules when we post here...

So it is not asking too much of people to keep their word ...

I believe in allowing people a chance to reform.
I believe in giving people very clear warnings ahead of time so that they can find a different path out of the hole they are digging for themselves.

But I also believe in being honest with people that you see breaking the rules, or posting in ways that are offensive and not in the spirit of good conversations.
I believe that when you bump into such people that you should be flat out honest with them and tell them that you will not allow their words to appear on your computer screen if they continue the way they are.
and if they still keep at it, then I believe in staying true to the warnings given and placing the other person on your IGNORE list and informing the MODs of the offensive posts.

The MODs will have a look and make their own judgements as to what they think should happen....But regardless of what the MODs do or do not do, the members of this forum have the power to control who they allow on their own computer screens.

Being banned from appearing on our screens is the way we all keep rule-breakers from thinking that they can get away with posting whatever they want.

It is very shocking for some posters to run into people that actually require people to follow the rules....they can react with much sarcasm....

but in time the idea is that they will see that its a lot better to have everyone following the same rules, then it is for some people to think they dont have to.

Sir

03-11-2013, 12:20 PM

its about maintaining order according to the rules that all agreed to.

We should require people to keep their word here.
We all gave our word that we would follow a set of rules when we post here...

So it is not asking too much of people to keep their word ...

I believe in allowing people a chance to reform.
I believe in giving people very clear warnings ahead of time so that they can find a different path out of the hole they are digging for themselves.

But I also believe in being honest with people that you see breaking the rules, or posting in ways that are offensive and not in the spirit of good conversations.
I believe that when you bump into such people that you should be flat out honest with them and tell them that you will not allow their words to appear on your computer screen if they continue the way they are.
and if they still keep at it, then I believe in staying true to the warnings given and placing the other person on your IGNORE list and informing the MODs of the offensive posts.

The MODs will have a look and make their own judgements as to what they think should happen....But regardless of what the MODs do or do not do, the members of this forum have the power to control who they allow on their own computer screens.

Being banned from appearing on our screens is the way we all keep rule-breakers from thinking that they can get away with posting whatever they want.

It is very shocking for some posters to run into people that actually require people to follow the rules....they can react with much sarcasm....

but in time the idea is that they will see that its a lot better to have everyone following the same rules, then it is for some people to think they dont have to.

Whoa......wait a sec....just 2 days ago you said,

"I put Sir on ignore about a year ago from breaking the rules and I never heard another peep out of him....so it works like a charm and ends pointless bickering....so that is my suggestion...."

Which alan are we supposed to believe?

James Banta

03-14-2013, 11:00 AM

Whoa......wait a sec....just 2 days ago you said,

"I put Sir on ignore about a year ago from breaking the rules and I never heard another peep out of him....so it works like a charm and ends pointless bickering....so that is my suggestion...."

Which alan are we supposed to believe?

What is the matter with you? You would rather pick on a persons words than actually defend mormonism. You attack yes, but not our religion you attack the person that has posted.. I don't care about any error you might post here other than the error of your position on religion.. There your are always wrong.. You claim that mormonism follows the teachings of the Bible yet when I post one you don't answer..

Here is another (My favorite).. The modern LDS church teaches that there is one God and that is the Father.. In this it denies that Jesus and the Holy Spirit are God. While it is always correct to call the Father the ONLY true God, it is also correct to call Jesus the only true God for He is that. The Holy Spirit is as well.. Three person all the only true God.. Each is also Lord. To say that only the Father is God is to deny the scripture where Jesus is called God such as Isaiah 9:6. Jesus (the child born unto us) is call the Mighty God, the everlasting Father. To deny that is His position as God. He is not A god.. He is THE GOD..

Each of these divine Persons is God, they are each all the God there is or ever can be. That doesn't diminish from the Father or the Son for they all are one God. The Bible is clear about that point in Deut 6:4, and Jesus confirmed that is Mark 12:29.. God revealed to Isaiah that He is God and there is no other (Isaiah 43:10-11, 43:8). Listen even if you twist these p***ages to mean just for this world you still have a problem because the prophet you sing praises to explained that there are three Gods for this world (History of the Church, Vol 6). Either the man that is believed by the LDS to have seen God the Father and God the Son, was lying or to mormonism there are three Gods for this world. How can you even think you can escape this. Either Smith was telling the truth and today's mormonism is lying, or Smith was a false teacher and the LDS church has no right to exist at all.. Yes it's a caught 22. Mormons are lost either way.. That is the point. You need to come into reality and see that even mormonism doesn't know the true God or Jesus whom He sent. They have two conflicting teaching both claim authority from Joseph Smith. This puts a huge question mark on his call to be a prophet..

So explain how you can worm yourself out of this contradiction. You seem to stand by the teaching of the LDS church that The Father is the Father of the spirit child that became Jesus. This denying that He is God the same as the Father. You must deny the scripture that teaches that before the Father there was no God Formed and there would be no God formed after Him. Again you say that is for this world but Jesus is a God for this world and was formed AFTER the Father was already God.. A clear denial of the scripture.. Yes it's another caught 22.. Seems mormonism has locked you into many such problems in their doctrine..

Now if you hold true to form you won't care a ***tle about the content of this post.. You will either seem to ignore it of look for my weaknesses in writing skills and attacjk those.. I can't wait to find out which you choose.. IHS jim

alanmolstad

03-14-2013, 11:59 AM

What is the matter with you?

beats me....

But I can tell you that if you come to this website and start reading the many new posts before you log-on...and see something and hit "REPLY", that this website will then take you right away to the log-on area where you will enter your name and p*** word as normal...But what i have just learned over the last year is that the next thing that will happen is that it will take you to the page that will allow you to REPLY, even if you did not know that the post you are replying to is written by someone on your IGNORE list.

This means that even if you did not relies it at the time, you can reply to posts that are normally on your ignore list...all without knowing it at all.

This does not mean that you are now replying the posts of people on your IGNORE list.
It's just a weird little computer glitch,,,

So from time to time I do end up replying to guys like BILLY or ErkErk Sir etc, that are on my ignore list.

I consider such times just my little 'gift' to the unfortunate ones that earned their spot on my list....

Oh i know that we have seen this one guy get all excited and jump up and down at this....
But I just smile....

As for what is wrong with him?......Thats not my field, but you are correct to ask such a question...

dberrie2000

03-16-2013, 05:37 AM

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post----Regardless of what people claim--here is the doctrine that Christ taught:

John 5:28-29----King James Version (KJV)

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation.

Originally Posted by Billyray View Post---Who is good according to Christ?

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post---And how are you relating that to the fact that the Bible records Christ's testimony as all being judged according to works--after death--and that for life or ****ation?

Simple. If you take Jesus at his word that none of us are good then you will realized that our rigtheousness comes from the imputed righteousness of Christ--not our own righteousness based on our works.

Again--how are you relating that to the fact that all will be judged according to works--after death--and that for life or ****ation?

Is this an attempt to convey the cover and cancel program of the faith alone? Your theology somehow cancels out the truths taught by Jesus Christ? What is it about what Jesus taught we do not believe?

John 5:28-29----King James Version (KJV)

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation.

Billyray

03-16-2013, 06:22 AM

Again--how are you relating that to the fact that all will be judged according to works--after death--and that for life or ****ation?

Is this an attempt to convey the cover and cancel program of the faith alone? Your theology somehow cancels out the truths taught by Jesus Christ? What is it about what Jesus taught we do not believe?

John 5:28-29----King James Version (KJV)

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation.

Where does it say in John 5 that "all will be judged according to works--after death--and that for life or ****ation?"

dberrie2000

03-17-2013, 06:38 AM

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post----Again--how are you relating that to the fact that all will be judged according to works--after death--and that for life or ****ation?

Is this an attempt to convey the cover and cancel program of the faith alone? Your theology somehow cancels out the truths taught by Jesus Christ? What is it about what Jesus taught we do not believe?

John 5:28-29----King James Version (KJV)

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation.

Where does it say in John 5 that "all will be judged according to works---

they that have done good,----and they that have done evil,

--after death--

all that are in the graves

and that for life or ****ation?"

they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation.

TrueBlue?

03-17-2013, 09:45 AM

What do you want...a tissue?

Erik crossed the line with me...
I warned him....
I warned him and warned him, but he would not listen and so I put him on ignore...

But thats all I did too.

The story ended there.

I didnt have to attack him personally,
I didnt have to respond to him.
I didn't have to say another word to him, or about him...

He no longer appeared on my screen, so he did not exist as far as I was concerned.

I never gave him another thought after I added him to the list.

And thats the thing I want to point out now...
Thats the beauty of adding trouble makers to your ignore list and why I always suggest it for anyone that is having a problem with another member of the form...because it ENDS the problem!

Boom!....end of story,

Is that not so much better than the endless arguing and the endless bickering?

So I did the right thing.

I added his name to the list and I never saw another word he posted, nor did I ever bother to respond to another one of his rants.......

In other words...the ignore list worked like a CHARM!

Mat 18:21 Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?
Mat 18:22 Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.

Mar_11:26 But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your tresp***es.

Just saying......

TrueBlue?

03-17-2013, 09:46 AM

What do you want...a tissue?

Erik crossed the line with me...
I warned him....
I warned him and warned him, but he would not listen and so I put him on ignore...

But thats all I did too.

The story ended there.

I didnt have to attack him personally,
I didnt have to respond to him.
I didn't have to say another word to him, or about him...

He no longer appeared on my screen, so he did not exist as far as I was concerned.

I never gave him another thought after I added him to the list.

And thats the thing I want to point out now...
Thats the beauty of adding trouble makers to your ignore list and why I always suggest it for anyone that is having a problem with another member of the form...because it ENDS the problem!

Boom!....end of story,

Is that not so much better than the endless arguing and the endless bickering?

So I did the right thing.

I added his name to the list and I never saw another word he posted, nor did I ever bother to respond to another one of his rants.......

In other words...the ignore list worked like a CHARM!

Mat 18:21 Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?
Mat 18:22 Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.

Luk 17:4 And if he tresp*** against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive him.

Just saying...........

Billyray

03-17-2013, 10:30 AM

they that have done good,----and they that have done evil,

all that are in the graves

they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation.

The verses that you quoted never says the basis for heaven and hell is works yet you quote these verses and ***ume that it does say that. And at the same time you ignore many other verses that tell us that salvation is by grace through faith and not by works.

dberrie2000

03-17-2013, 02:52 PM

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post----Again--how are you relating that to the fact that all will be judged according to works--after death--and that for life or ****ation?

Is this an attempt to convey the cover and cancel program of the faith alone? Your theology somehow cancels out the truths taught by Jesus Christ? What is it about what Jesus taught we do not believe?

John 5:28-29----King James Version (KJV)

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation.

Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View PostWhere does it say in John 5 that "all will be judged according to works---

dberrie----"they that have done good,----and they that have done evil",

Billyray-----after death--

dberrie---"all that are in the graves"

Billyray---and that for life or ****ation?"

dberrie---"they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation."

The verses that you quoted never says the basis for heaven and hell is works

It states all will be judged according to works--after death--and that for life or ****ation--just what I postulated in my opening post above.

Billyray

03-17-2013, 03:29 PM

It states all will be judged according to works--after death--and that for life or ****ation--just what I postulated in my opening post above.

It doesn't say that in those verses and if it did that would mean that the NT contradicts itself and could not be trusted. DB you pick a few verses and read things into the verses and then throw out many other verses that you don't like and as long as you do that you will remain lost.

dberrie2000

04-05-2013, 07:07 AM

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post---It states all will be judged according to works--after death--and that for life or ****ation--just what I postulated in my opening post above.

It doesn't say that in those verses

Yes it does:

John 5:28-29----King James Version (KJV)

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation.

RealFakeHair

04-05-2013, 07:54 AM

Yes it does:

John 5:28-29----King James Version (KJV)

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation.

db, have you done good, and how do you know?

alanmolstad

04-05-2013, 08:23 AM

Luk 17:4 And if he tresp*** against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive him.

Just saying...........

internet bulling has to have a response that is firm, or people will expect to be able to get away with anything , saying anything, doing any hurtful thing they want, and when someone else tries to put a stop to it they turn out to be the ones thought of by others as in the wrong?....

Typical.....

I believe strongly that when any of us on a forum such as this runs into some poster that simply does not play by the rules, that in addition to contacting the MODs that we should make use of the IGNORE setting to end all future trouble with the offenders.

the IGNORE setting allows you to never again need to worry that the other person was rude, used bad words, used bad manners, or made personal attacks...

The IGNORE setting ends the problem.

It's over.....it finished....You dont have to deal with the same situation over and over and over...

I think TrueBlue that you should really consider that my approach is by far the best approach to take on the internet in general.

My approach is a real Christ-like way to handle situations on a forum like this.

My approach does not fail.....it always works....it has a 100% success rate for ending conflict.

This Walter Martin forum has gotten a reputation over the last year or so of being a place where the MOD simply was not paying much attention to what was going on.

While this has changed within the last few months (as I have see Kevin popping in a lot more now as of late), , for the most part the only means people had to control what was being posted here was the use of the IGNORE setting, or.....fighting back in kind,,,bad word for bad word,,,,spit for spit....

But by my own rare use of the IGNORE setting I was able to fully control the posters that I allowed to have their words appear on my computer screen.

I think a lot of people think that just by coming here that this somehow gives them the 'right" to post here whatever they want, and that the rest of us have to allow them this "right"

Well it dont!

You dont have any "right" to post here.
You dont have any such right to have your words pop up on my computer...

When we all have the ability to clear posts forever off of our screens, it reminds us that we have only the "privilege" to post here....

If you post something on the forum, I grant you the 'privilege' to have your words on my computer screen.

But if i believe you have abused yourself here?....then by the use of the IGNORE setting I can take away your "privilege' to have your words seen.

By my making sure you understand that I use my IGNORE setting to ban you from my computer, this should tend to help you find the right tone for your posts.

Because you have heard that once you get on my IGNORE list after 2 or 3 warnings, you are on it for good!

I have only had to use the IGNORE setting on 2 or 3 people.
Each time i gave the person way more 2nd chances than they were due.
I warned each person on my IGNORE list that there would be consequences to their actions, but in each case they simply dont give a rip.....
or they did not believe me,
or did not believe i would ban them forever, as most people give-in after a short time.

Well.....they know better now.

Billyray

04-05-2013, 08:47 AM

Yes it does:

John 5
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation.

Where does that they will be "judged according to works". . ."for life or ****ation"?

dberrie2000

04-05-2013, 05:36 PM

Billyray

04-05-2013, 05:39 PM

I'm happy to let God judge that-
He already has judged that and the answer is no you are not good. Only God is good.

dberrie2000

04-05-2013, 05:59 PM

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post---Yes it does:

John 5:28-29----King James Version (KJV)

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation.

Quote Originally Posted by RealFakeHair View Post--db, have you done good, and how do you know?

dberrie---I'm happy to let God judge that--that is who it rightfully belongs to. Not you nor me--but God.

But could I ask you a question? How does that somehow effect the fact the scriptures show all will be judged according to their works--and that for life or ****ation?

He already has judged that and the answer is no you are not good. Only God is good.

The scriptures state this judgment will take place after death--and a judgment of works--those who have done good--unto the resurrection of life. Could you explain how replacing that with your personal theology somehow changes the scriptures?

Billyray

04-05-2013, 06:01 PM

The scriptures state this judgment will take place after death--and a judgment of works--those who have done good--unto the resurrection of life. Could you explain how replacing that with your personal theology somehow changes the scriptures?

Sure I would be happy to try and explain it to you but unfortunately you will likely not listen. Jesus clearly said that nobody is good besides God alone. If what he said was true then are you good based on your works? What is the basis for your righteousness according to the NT?

dberrie2000

04-05-2013, 06:19 PM

dberrie----riginally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post---Yes it does:

John 5:28-29----King James Version (KJV)

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation.

The scriptures state this judgment will take place after death--and a judgment of works--those who have done good--unto the resurrection of life. Could you explain how replacing that with your personal theology somehow changes the scriptures?

Sure I would be happy to try and explain it to you but unfortunately you will likely not listen. Jesus clearly said that nobody is good besides God alone.

Could you explain for us how your rationalizations negates what Christ has stated--that all will be judged according to works--and that for life or ****ation--after this life?

Billyray

04-05-2013, 06:28 PM

Could you explain for us how your rationalizations negates what Christ has stated--

I am not negating what Christ said rather I am negating your false ***umptions.

Christ said that nobody is good besides God alone. Do you agree with that part so far?

dberrie2000

04-06-2013, 05:10 AM

dberrie----Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post---Yes it does:

John 5:28-29----King James Version (KJV)

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation.

The scriptures state this judgment will take place after death--and a judgment of works--those who have done good--unto the resurrection of life. Could you explain how replacing that with your personal theology somehow changes the scriptures?

Originally Posted by Billyray View PostSure I would be happy to try and explain it to you but unfortunately you will likely not listen. Jesus clearly said that nobody is good besides God alone.

dberrie---Could you explain for us how your rationalizations negates what Christ has stated--that all will be judged according to works--and that for life or ****ation--after this life?

I am not negating what Christ said rather I am negating your false ***umptions.

What part of-- they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; --do you consider false?

Billyray

04-06-2013, 08:43 AM

What part of-- they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; --do you consider false?
Your ***umption of who you think is good and the basis for their goodness is what Is in error, not the verse.

Mark 10:18*“Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good—except God alone.

According to Christ who is good?

Billyray

04-06-2013, 08:53 AM

John 5:
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation.

The scriptures state this judgment will take place after death--and a judgment of works--those who have done good--unto the resurrection of life. Could you explain how replacing that with your personal theology somehow changes the scriptures?
I agree with you that both believers and unbelievers will have their works judged. But can you show me in your proof text where it says that works is the basis for salvation for believers because I don't see that in the verses above.

dberrie2000

04-11-2013, 07:39 AM

I agree with you that both believers and unbelievers will have their works judged.

You are right--and the scriptures have this as the result of those works:

John 5:28-29----King James Version (KJV)

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation.

Either life or ****ation.

But can you show me in your proof text where it says that works is the basis for salvation for believers because I don't see that in the verses above.

Works is the basis for either receiving His grace to life--or ****ation. What is it about John5:28-29 we are not understanding?

James Banta

04-11-2013, 10:13 AM

You are right--and the scriptures have this as the result of those works:

John 5:28-29----King James Version (KJV)

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation.

Either life or ****ation.

Works is the basis for either receiving His grace to life--or ****ation. What is it about John5:28-29 we are not understanding?

But just like the definition of Eternal life mormonism has added a new definition to ****ation.. In mormonism a person can enter God's presence and still receive ****ation.. That is a wild doctrine but never the less the teaching of mormonism..

In the celestial glory there are three heavens or degrees;
And in order to obtain the highest, a man must enter into this order of the priesthood [meaning the new and everlasting covenant of marriage];
And if he does not, he cannot obtain it.
He may enter into the other, but that is the end of his kingdom; he cannot have an increase.’ (D&C 131:1–4.)
He cannot have an increase! He cannot have exaltation!
The Lord says further in the 132nd section of the Doctrine and Covenants:
No one can reject this covenant and be permitted to enter into my glory’ (D&C 132:4).
No one! It matters not how righteous they may have been, how intelligent or how well trained they are. No one will enter this highest glory unless he enters into the covenant, and this means the new and everlasting covenant of marriage. (Spencer W. Kimball, “The Importance of Celestial Marriage,” Ensign, Oct. 1979, pp. 5–6.)

By this we can see that even in the presence of God within the Celestial kingdom, those who gain the first two levels are ****ed.. Does this show that mormonism teaches a different definition of ****ation than the Bible.. YES!! Of that there is no doubt.. IHS jim

dberrie2000

04-11-2013, 11:51 AM

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post---You are right--and the scriptures have this as the result of those works:

John 5:28-29----King James Version (KJV)

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation.

Either life or ****ation.

Works is the basis for either receiving His grace to life--or ****ation. What is it about John5:28-29 we are not understanding?

But just like the definition of Eternal life mormonism has added a new definition to ****ation.. In mormonism a person can enter God's presence and still receive ****ation.. That is a wild doctrine but never the less the teaching of mormonism..

And one that is not true. To live in the presence of God--one must not receive ****ation.

In the celestial glory there are three heavens or degrees;
And in order to obtain the highest, a man must enter into this order of the priesthood [meaning the new and everlasting covenant of marriage];
And if he does not, he cannot obtain it.
He may enter into the other, but that is the end of his kingdom; he cannot have an increase.’ (D&C 131:1–4.)
He cannot have an increase! He cannot have exaltation!
The Lord says further in the 132nd section of the Doctrine and Covenants:
No one can reject this covenant and be permitted to enter into my glory’ (D&C 132:4).
No one! It matters not how righteous they may have been, how intelligent or how well trained they are. No one will enter this highest glory unless he enters into the covenant, and this means the new and everlasting covenant of marriage. (Spencer W. Kimball, “The Importance of Celestial Marriage,” Ensign, Oct. 1979, pp. 5–6.)

By this we can see that even in the presence of God within the Celestial kingdom, those who gain the first two levels are ****ed.. Does this show that mormonism teaches a different definition of ****ation than the Bible.. YES!! Of that there is no doubt.. IHS jim

And if one enters into any level with the exception of eternal life----one does live in the presence of God.

Billyray

05-09-2013, 09:36 PM

Works is the basis for either receiving His grace to life--or ****ation. What is it about John5:28-29 we are not understanding?
Works is not the basis for salvation. Faith in Christ is the basis for salvation. You obviously are showing your lack of knowledge of the Bible--perhaps you should read more that your favorite handful of cherry picked verses.

1 Corinthians 3:12-15
12 If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. 14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames

dberrie2000

05-10-2013, 01:12 AM

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post---Works is the basis for either receiving His grace to life--or ****ation. What is it about John5:28-29 we are not understanding?

John 5:28-29----King James Version (KJV)

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation.

Works is not the basis for salvation. Faith in Christ is the basis for salvation.

God's grace is the basis for Eternal life--and the scriptures show that God will judge every man according to his works--and that for life or ****ation. Which is the reason faith without works is dead:

James 2:20---King James Version (KJV)

20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

God gives His grace to those who obey Him:

Hebrews 5:9----King James Version (KJV)

9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

You obviously are showing your lack of knowledge of the Bible--perhaps you should read more that your favorite handful of cherry picked verses.

1 Corinthians 3:12-15
12 If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. 14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames

But that is just a reflection of LDS theology--that all men will be saved through the resurrection and Atonement of Jesus Christ--with the exception of the sons of perdition--into some form of glory.

But eternal life is reserved for those who follow Christ, and obey Him, as Paul explained:

1 Corinthians 6:9-10---King James Version (KJV)

9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Could you explain for us how works are not a consideration in God's grace unto life--and Paul name off a long list of works whereby man cannot enter into life if they refuse to repent of?

Billyray

05-10-2013, 03:05 AM

But that is just a reflection of LDS theology--that all men will be saved through the resurrection and Atonement of Jesus Christ--with the exception of the sons of perdition--into some form of glory.

So living apart from God the Father is what you call saved?

Billyray

05-10-2013, 03:14 AM

Could you explain for us how works are not a consideration in God's grace unto life--and Paul name off a long list of works whereby man cannot enter into life if they refuse to repent of?
Sure those who are regenerated and are saved have God's spirit that lives within them and they are sanctified over tiime which is work of God in the life of the believer. Their life is one that is not marked with persistent willful disobedience to God. This is the evidence that they have been regenerated. Those who are not regenerated will live a life that is in persistent sin because they are not saved and do not have God's spirit within them sanctifying their life.

dberrie2000

05-11-2013, 02:28 AM

Billyray

05-11-2013, 04:19 PM

How does that explanation somehow cancel the fact that Paul states those who do certain works cannot enter into life? That connects works with God's grace.
Works are God's grace. Those who have been saved/regenerated are changed because they have been born again and have God's spirit within them. Works are a natural outflow of this and this is evidence that's person indeed has been born again.

dberrie2000

05-12-2013, 09:15 AM

dberrie---But eternal life is reserved for those who follow Christ, and obey Him, as Paul explained:

1 Corinthians 6:9-10---King James Version (KJV)

9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Could you explain for us how works are not a consideration in God's grace unto life--and Paul name off a long list of works whereby man cannot enter into life if they refuse to repent of?

Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post---Sure those who are regenerated and are saved have God's spirit that lives within them and they are sanctified over tiime which is work of God in the life of the believer. Their life is one that is not marked with persistent willful disobedience to God. This is the evidence that they have been regenerated. Those who are not regenerated will live a life that is in persistent sin because they are not saved and do not have God's spirit within them sanctifying their life.

dberrie---How does that explanation somehow cancel the fact that Paul states those who do certain works cannot enter into life? That connects works with God's grace. How is that any different from those who will be judged according to works--and that for life or ****ation?

John 5:28-29----King James Version (KJV)

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation.

Works are God's grace.

Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)

38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

So--is the repentance and water baptism here something God does--or we do? Or is the remission of sins God's grace to those who repent and are baptized? Do you consider water baptism a work?

Those who have been saved/regenerated are changed because they have been born again and have God's spirit within them.

And all Early Church Fathers agree---water baptism was involved in the born again or generated process--or both.

Works are a natural outflow of this and this is evidence that's person indeed has been born again.

I agree. But how does your premise somehow cancel out the fact the scriptures have God giving His salvational Grace of eternal life to those who obey Him?

Billyray

05-12-2013, 10:47 AM

So--is the repentance and water baptism here something God does--or we do?

We are the ones who turn from our old ways (repentance) and realize that we are sinners and need a Savior to save us from our sins and we place our trust in Him to save us (faith). Works--such as baptism--follow those who are saved and we are the ones who get baptized. But ultimately this is God working out His will in our lives by first regenerating us (born again) and giving us His spirit to sanctify us.

Billyray

05-12-2013, 10:51 AM

But how does your premise somehow cancel out the fact the scriptures have God giving His salvational Grace of eternal life to those who obey Him?
We don't work for salvation DB. Salvation takes place when we place our faith in Christ, and we certainly don't earn grace.

Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.

dberrie2000

05-12-2013, 02:21 PM

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post---But how does your premise somehow cancel out the fact the scriptures have God giving His salvational Grace of eternal life to those who obey Him?

John 5:28-29----King James Version (KJV)

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation.

We don't work for salvation DB.

The Biblical theology is not based on what do do or don't do--it's based on truth. And the truth is--the Bible has God's grace of eternal life going to those who obey Him.

Salvation takes place when we place our faith in Christ,

Could you explain how that is true--and all will be judged according to works--and that for life or ****ation--following death?

and we certainly don't earn grace.

Is this an example of earning grace?

Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)

9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Billyray

05-13-2013, 01:15 AM

Is this an example of earning grace?

Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)

9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Not at all. Why do you think that it does?

Billyray

05-13-2013, 01:17 AM

The Biblical theology is not based on what do do or don't do--it's based on truth. And the truth is--the Bible has God's grace of eternal life going to those who obey Him.The truth is that we are saved when we trust in Christ to save us and our works do not contribute for salvation.

dberrie2000

05-13-2013, 08:33 AM

The truth is that we are saved when we trust in Christ to save us and our works do not contribute for salvation.

Again--personal theology does not dictate what the scriptures teach as truth:

Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)

9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Billyray

05-13-2013, 11:14 AM

Again--personal theology does not dictate what the scriptures teach as truth:

What I have said is what the Bible teaches. Are you ever going to get around to telling me what role works play in our justification/salvation according to Romans 4?

Romans 4: 5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.

dberrie2000

05-15-2013, 05:29 AM

Originally Posted by Billyray View Post---The truth is that we are saved when we trust in Christ to save us and our works do not contribute for salvation.

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post---Again--personal theology does not dictate what the scriptures teach as truth:

Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)

9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

What I have said is what the Bible teaches.

Again--your teaching---"works do not contribute for salvation"---is defied by the scriptures themselves:

eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Billyray

05-15-2013, 09:34 AM

Again--your teaching---"works do not contribute for salvation"---is defied by the scriptures themselves:

eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

They certainly are not "defied by the scriptures" rather what I have said is confirmed by the scriptures. In fact listen to what Jesus said in John 3 and John 6.

John 3
16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

John 6
28 Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”
29 Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”

dberrie2000

05-17-2013, 04:46 AM

They certainly are not "defied by the scriptures" rather what I have said is confirmed by the scriptures. In fact listen to what Jesus said in John 3 and John 6.

John 3
16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

John 6
28 Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”
29 Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”

And are these the ones who believed in Christ?

Acts 2:38-42---King James Version (KJV)

38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.

41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

Is this a condition of belief?

Hebrews 3:14---King James Version (KJV)

14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

Billyray

05-17-2013, 05:11 PM

And are these the ones who believed in Christ?

Absolutely they are those who have been converted by coming to Christ and placing their trust in him for salvation.

Billyray

05-17-2013, 05:14 PM

Is this a condition of belief?

[B]Hebrews 3:14---For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;It is not a condition of faith but rather a result of those who are saved. Those who are truly saved WILL persist and evidence for the doctrine of preservation of the saints.

dberrie2000

05-18-2013, 12:14 PM

dberrie----Is this a condition of belief?

Hebrews 3:14---King James Version (KJV)

14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

It is not a condition of faith but rather a result of those who are saved.

Billyray's theology: They endure to the end because they are saved.

Biblical theology---they are made partakers with Christ because they endured to the end.

Hebrews 6:4-8---King James Version (KJV)

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:

8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

Billyray

05-18-2013, 02:20 PM

Billyray's theology: They endure to the end because they are saved.

Philippians 2:13 for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

Ephesians 1
11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,
12 so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory.
13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,
14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.

Billyray

05-20-2013, 07:45 PM

Billyray's theology: They endure to the end because they are saved.

John 10
25 Jesus answered, “I did tell you, but you do not believe. The works I do in my Father’s name testify about me,
26 but you do not believe because you are not my sheep.

Compare those who are not Jesus' sheep with those who are his sheep

John 10
27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.
28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.
29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand.

Romans 8:30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

Philippians 1:6 being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.

Billyray

05-20-2013, 07:52 PM

Billyray's theology: They endure to the end because they are saved.

1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.

dberrie2000

05-21-2013, 06:48 AM

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post----Billyray's theology: They endure to the end because they are saved.

Biblical theology---they are made partakers with Christ because they endured to the end.

Hebrews 6:4-8---King James Version (KJV)

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:

8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

Philippians 2:13 for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

Ephesians 1
11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,
12 so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory.
13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,
14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.

Please explain how your quotes somehow cancel out what the scriptures plainly state:

Hebrews 10:36---King James Version (KJV)

36 For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.

2 Peter 2:20-22--King James Version (KJV)

20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

Billyray

05-21-2013, 02:40 PM

Billyray's theology: They endure to the end because they are saved.

Biblical theology---they are made partakers with Christ because they endured to the end.

Philippians 2:13 for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

Ephesians 1
11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,
12 so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory.
13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,
14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.

Romans 8
30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

1 John 2:19
19 They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.

dberrie2000

05-25-2013, 05:35 AM

dberrie----Is this a condition of belief?

Hebrews 3:14---King James Version (KJV)

14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post---It is not a condition of faith but rather a result of those who are saved.

dberrie--

Billyray's theology: They endure to the end because they are saved.

Biblical theology---they are made partakers with Christ because they endured to the end.

Hebrews 6:4-8---King James Version (KJV)

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:

8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

Philippians 2:13 for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

Ephesians 1
11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,
12 so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory.
13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,
14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.

Romans 8
30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

1 John 2:19
19 They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.

How are you using those scriptures to somehow annul the fact the scriptures state that God gives His grace to those who obey Him? That enduring to the end is a requirement of being partakers of Christ?

Hebrews 3:14---King James Version (KJV)

14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

Billyray

05-25-2013, 07:46 AM

How are you using those scriptures to somehow annul the fact the scriptures state that God gives His grace to those who obey Him?
Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.

James Banta

05-25-2013, 07:54 AM

How are you using those scriptures to somehow annul the fact the scriptures state that God gives His grace to those who obey Him? That enduring to the end is a requirement of being partakers of Christ?

Hebrews 3:14---King James Version (KJV)

14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

And what is our confidence? It is our good works? our obedience? Or is it Jesus, who makes us confidence of our salvation by His grace through faith and even that not of ourselves.. If we hold onto that faith we have confidence that we are that we are already have eternal life.

1 John 5:13
These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye HAVE eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

I have shown you several times now how we can be obedient though the imputed righteousness of Jesus and the how the righteousness built on our own obedience is nothing more than SELF RIGHTEOUSNESS. You haven't said a word about that. All you have done is continue to beat the obedience drum. Again I say that in your own acts you are NOT righteous. No more than Isaiah who was a great prophet, a man who walked closely to God and yet what did he say of his own righteousness?

Isaiah 6:5
Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts.

In seeing the Lord Isaiah didn't feel special of exalted, no he said "WOE is we!" and why because he could see his sin clearly. If Isaiah the prophet saw his sin when he compared himself to the Lord how do you see your works as obedience? IHS jim

Billyray

05-25-2013, 09:12 AM

That enduring to the end is a requirement of being partakers of christ?

1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.

Billyray

05-25-2013, 09:27 AM

Hebrews 3:14---For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

1 John 3:19 They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.

dberrie2000

05-27-2013, 04:38 AM

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post---Hebrews 3:14---For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

1 John 3:19 They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.

Which only confirms that enduring to the end is connected to being saved.

2 Peter 3:17---King James Version (KJV)

17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness

Galatians 5:4---King James Version (KJV)

4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

If once-saved-always-saved is a true doctrine--then how can one fall from grace?

Billyray

05-27-2013, 01:43 PM

Which only confirms that enduring to the end is connected to being saved.
True. OSAS. Those who are tares will fall away.

1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.

dberrie2000

05-28-2013, 04:00 AM

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post----Which only confirms that enduring to the end is connected to being saved.

2 Peter 3:17---King James Version (KJV)

17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness

Galatians 5:4---King James Version (KJV)

4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

If once-saved-always-saved is a true doctrine--then how can one fall from grace?

True. OSAS. Those who are tares will fall away.

Again--if once-saved-always-saved is a true doctrine--then how could one fall from grace?

Billyray

05-28-2013, 03:44 PM

Again--if once-saved-always-saved is a true doctrine--then how could one fall from grace?
Philippians 1:6 being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you *****WILL*****carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.

James Banta

05-29-2013, 08:01 AM

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And what is our confidence? It is our good works? our obedience? Or is it Jesus, who makes us confidence of our salvation by His grace through faith and even that not of ourselves.. If we hold onto that faith we have confidence that we are that we are already have eternal life.

1 John 5:13
These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye HAVE eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

I have shown you several times now how we can be obedient though the imputed righteousness of Jesus and the how the righteousness built on our own obedience is nothing more than SELF RIGHTEOUSNESS. You haven't said a word about that. All you have done is continue to beat the obedience drum. Again I say that in your own acts you are NOT righteous. No more than Isaiah who was a great prophet, a man who walked closely to God and yet what did he say of his own righteousness?

Isaiah 6:5
Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts.

In seeing the Lord Isaiah didn't feel special of exalted, no he said "WOE is we!" and why because he could see his sin clearly. If Isaiah the prophet saw his sin when he compared himself to the Lord how do you see your works as obedience? IHS jim

DBerry:
As it is in many posts I submit here the truth of the word of the Holy Spirit shuts you down completely.. You should listen to His teachings instead of the lies purported by Joseph Smith.. IHS jim

dberrie2000

10-17-2013, 08:40 AM

Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.

Again--how are you using those scriptures to somehow annul the fact the scriptures state that God gives His grace to those who obey Him? That enduring to the end is a requirement of being partakers of Christ?

Acts 5:32----King James Version (KJV)

32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

Hebrews 3:14---King James Version (KJV)

14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

Billyray--the fact is--the scriptures have God giving His grace to those who obey Him. No one is arguing that it is by the works of the law we are saved--only that what does save--His grace--goes to those who obey Him--and only those who obey Him:

2 Thessalonians 1:8-9----King James Version (KJV)

8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

1 Peter 4:17---King James Version (KJV)

17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

Billyray

10-17-2013, 11:27 PM

Again--how are you using those scriptures to somehow annul the fact the scriptures state that God gives His grace to those who obey Him? That enduring to the end is a requirement of being partakers of Christ?

Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.

DB tell me what role works play in grace according to this verse. I am watching to see if you address this verse or if you try to be deceptive in avoiding it.

dberrie2000

10-18-2013, 05:57 AM

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post---Again--how are you using those scriptures to somehow annul the fact the scriptures state that God gives His grace to those who obey Him? That enduring to the end is a requirement of being partakers of Christ?

Acts 5:32----King James Version (KJV)

32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

Hebrews 3:14---King James Version (KJV)

14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

Billyray--the fact is--the scriptures have God giving His grace to those who obey Him. No one is arguing that it is by the works of the law we are saved--only that what does save--His grace--goes to those who obey Him--and only those who obey Him:

2 Thessalonians 1:8-9----King James Version (KJV)

8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

1 Peter 4:17---King James Version (KJV)

17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.

DB tell me what role works play in grace according to this verse. I am watching to see if you address this verse or if you try to be deceptive in avoiding it.

Paul was addressing works of the Mosaic Law in your verse. Could you explain for us how that somehow cancels out the fact that the scriptures have God giving His grace unto life to those who obey Him--such as the ones I quoted above?

Could you explain to us--if Paul did believe that acts of obedience to Jesus Christ was not necessary for His grace unto life--then why would he address it in such a manner as this?

Romans 2:5-11----King James Version (KJV)

5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

Paul also believed all men would be judged according to works--and that for life or ****ation.

The works included disobedience which would prevent one from entering the kingdom as well:

Galatians 5:19-21---King James Version (KJV)

19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Could you explain for us--if works are not a part of salvation--then why would Paul make such a long list of works that would hinder us from entering eternal life?

1 Corinthians 7:19---King James Version (KJV)

19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.