Repentance

[Sir]

Since I was kind of bored tonight, I thought I would take James Banta's conjecture (in red) and his issues with LDS repentance and add a little commentary with my questions to YOU, the non-LDS here:


The sinner must have "Sorrow for Sin"

Doesn't seem like a problem. If one is to repent of their sins they must feel a genuine sense of sorrow, an understanding of what they did that was an offense to God. To be healed from sickness one must first recognize they are sick.

What is wrong with this step according to you non-LDS?


Then "Confess" the sin. If it's minor God can handle it but if it's a big sin like adultery you have to tell a man..

Yes, we must confess our sins to God so He can forgive us. When LDS confess more grave sins (like adultry, as James knows about quite well) to the church leaders, it is not in order to receive any type of forgiveness since they have not the power to forgive. It is to receive their guidance and help in returning to the path of God and being an upstanding member of the church of God here on earth.

What is wrong with this step according to non-LDS?


You have to stop sinning "Abandon Sin". No one has ever done this so my guess is that not a single mormon ever dies with a clean conscience.

If someone is to repent of adultry (James), then it makes perfect sense that true repentance requires that the person refrain from committing adultry again. When you repented of your adultry, James, did you quit doing it? Or are you of the opinion that one can simply ask for forgiveness of adultry on Friday and then go out and do it again on Sa****ay and then ask God for forgieness again in Sunday, only to go do it again on Monday?

That you claim "no one has ever abandoned sin" is a gross misrepresentation and misunderstanding on your part of the principle of repentance and forgiveness.

What is wrong with the idea of stopping the sin that is being repented of according to non-LDS?


The sinner MUST make Res***ution.. How do you make res***ution for murder or adultery?

When we repent, we need to correct the wrong. If I steal a bike from my neighbor, I am not truly repenting if I simply ask for God's forgiveness and then continue riding my newly ill-gotten bike in front of my neighbor's house.

Some sins cannot be restored, as James suggests, which is why we always need the atonement of Jesus. His atonement paid the price of our sins and it is through His atonement that the payment for the res***ution is made.

What is wrong with the principle of righting a wrong as part of our repentance process according to the non-LDS?



You must change your ways to "Righteous Living".. Again no one has ever done this so again not mormon can be saved..


When one truly seeks reprentance, they do so with a spirit of wanting to follow God better, to become more like Him. That requires that we change aspects of our lifestyle in order to conform more to the path that God wants us to follow. If I repent of frequenting strip clubs, I am not truly repentant if I do not change my lifestyle and stop going to those strip clubs.

What is wrong with the principle of changing your lifestyle to be more righteous as part of the repentance process according to the non-LDS?

[jdjhere]

Sir- We get what you are saying here and I for one would be happy to dialogue with you but have in the past and it went nowhere. Just let me make a point- when you attack someone personally about a sin they may (or may not have) committed, all it does is make your self-righteous at***ude even more apparent. Don't cast stones, especially in public, before you straighten up your own house.

[Sir]

Sir- We get what you are saying here and I for one would be happy to dialogue with you but have in the past and it went nowhere.

Fair enough. Feel free to remove yourself from the thread then. :)


Just let me make a point- when you attack someone personally about a sin they may (or may not have) committed, all it does is make your self-righteous at***ude even more apparent. Don't cast stones, especially in public, before you straighten up your own house.

We are all sinners. Using someone's experience with a sin (since they were the ones the brought up that particular sin) isn't really an attack. It's common knowledge here that James was once an adulterer. Since he is open about that and since we are talking about repentance, it is apropros to using that in order to help paint the picture that James is trying to convey about the principles of true repentance.

I appreciate your attempt at preaching not to cast stones while simultaneously calling me self-righteous. No irony there. None. :p

[James Banta]

[Sir;140047]Since I was kind of bored tonight, I thought I would take James Banta's conjecture (in red) and his issues with LDS repentance and add a little commentary with my questions to YOU, the non-LDS here:

Doesn't seem like a problem. If one is to repent of their sins they must feel a genuine sense of sorrow, an understanding of what they did that was an offense to God. To be healed from sickness one must first recognize they are sick.

What is wrong with this step according to you non-LDS?

The problem isn't having sorrow for sin. The problem is believing that you don't find sorrow for being a sinner in the first place.. We all have sinned and we continue to sin daily and yet LDS don't seem to have sorrow for that but instead try to take sins they "Feel" one at a time and go through their repentance process..


Yes, we must confess our sins to God so He can forgive us. When LDS confess more grave sins (like adultry, as James knows about quite well) to the church leaders, it is not in order to receive any type of forgiveness since they have not the power to forgive. It is to receive their guidance and help in returning to the path of God and being an upstanding member of the church of God here on earth.

What is wrong with this step according to non-LDS?

What is wrong is the fact that you are not willing to confess that you are a sinner and have God deal with your sin completely.. You were born naturally and without a new birth a spiritual birth you have not confessed your place before God. That of a sinner His enemy..


If someone is to repent of adultry (James), then it makes perfect sense that true repentance requires that the person refrain from committing adultry again. When you repented of your adultry, James, did you quit doing it? Or are you of the opinion that one can simply ask for forgiveness of adultry on Friday and then go out and do it again on Sa****ay and then ask God for forgieness again in Sunday, only to go do it again on Monday?

That you claim "no one has ever abandoned sin" is a gross misrepresentation and misunderstanding on your part of the principle of repentance and forgiveness.

What is wrong with the idea of stopping the sin that is being repented of according to non-LDS?

What is wrong with this.. The fact that once you have repented to God and turned to Him He has made you a new creation.. That new creation is in the image of Jesus and is 100% pure.. There is no sin in it at all.. Yes the flesh is still there but it is no longer the person that commits sin but sin that is still there in their flesh (Romans 7:17-20).. You know that after you go through this process of LDS repentance that you still go back and commit the same sin again and again.. I am sorry but this is the nature of the beast. This is why Jesus came to be righteousness for us, because in ourselves there is no power to do righteousnesses.. To say we are or even that we can be is the pinnacle of SELF RIGHTEOUSNESS just like the Pharisees..

So what is wrong with this point of LDS repentance? It doesn't correct the problem within us.. We sin and sin and sin again.. Over and over the same old thing and that is rebellion against God..


When we repent, we need to correct the wrong. If I steal a bike from my neighbor, I am not truly repenting if I simply ask for God's forgiveness and then continue riding my newly ill-gotten bike in front of my neighbor's house.

Some sins cannot be restored, as James suggests, which is why we always need the atonement of Jesus. His atonement paid the price of our sins and it is through His atonement that the payment for the res***ution is made.

What is wrong with the principle of righting a wrong as part of our repentance process according to the non-LDS?


I am glade you have seen that Jesus is the ONLY way to have atonement made for our sin. What does the Bible teach as who we sin against even when it hurts others? So what is wrong with this point of LDS repentance. It doesn't deal with our sin, any of it..


Psalm 51 3:-4
For I know my transgressions, And my sin is ever before me.
Against You, You only, I have sinned. And done what is evil in Your sight,
So that You are justified when You speak. And blameless when You judge.

The ONLY atonement that can be made is that which Jesus made.. Merely restoring what a person steals is NOT enough.. The law calls for blood when a person breaks the Law. James tells us that breaking one point of the law makes us guilty of breaking the whole of the law.

So what is wrong with this point of LDS repentance.. IT doesn't make up for (atone) for the wrong done.. That is what is wrong with it..


When one truly seeks reprentance, they do so with a spirit of wanting to follow God better, to become more like Him. That requires that we change aspects of our lifestyle in order to conform more to the path that God wants us to follow. If I repent of frequenting strip clubs, I am not truly repentant if I do not change my lifestyle and stop going to those strip clubs.

What is wrong with the principle of changing your lifestyle to be more righteous as part of the repentance process according to the non-LDS?


This condition of LDS repentance doesn't have one thing to do with the process of sanctification. It is stated that the repentant person loves the rest of their love sinless.. NOT ONCE HAS THIS BEEN ACCOMPLISHED BY ANY ONE OF YOU EVER. This wasn't even done by the apostle Paul (Romans 7:19).. How can you sit here and tell us you are greater in your spiritual life than he? And yet this is a step in LDS repentance and by it I can clearly state that not one of you has ever repented on one single sin in your life.. IHS jim

[James Banta]

Fair enough. Feel free to remove yourself from the thread then. :)



We are all sinners. Using someone's experience with a sin (since they were the ones the brought up that particular sin) isn't really an attack. It's common knowledge here that James was once an adulterer. Since he is open about that and since we are talking about repentance, it is apropros to using that in order to help paint the picture that James is trying to convey about the principles of true repentance.

I appreciate your attempt at preaching not to cast stones while simultaneously calling me self-righteous. No irony there. None. :p

My repentance to God included ALL my sin.. I didn't take them one at a time as the LDS do.. There is no way I could be ***ured that I wouldn't have missed a few and since NO UNCLEAN THING CAN ENTER THE KINGDOM OF GOD I would be denied a place with Him in His Kingdom.. Instead I confessed my sin and He (God) is faithful and just to forgive my sin and cleanse me of ALL unrighteousness.. So what did I do about it? Nothing He did it all.. He broke my heart, showing me the poverty of my spirit and my sin. He put the sorrow for that sin within me. He showed me humility before His greatness. He places in me a hunger for Him, a desire to be filled by His Spirit again and again.. A need to help others always pointing to Him as the source for anything that He does through me. Allowing Him access to my heart to recreate me in the image of Jesus have the ***urance of standing in His presences at the end of my days without question in my mind..

Anyone that tells me that They DO any on this is waving a flag of self righteousness in my face and it is disgusting.. IHS jim

[RealFakeHair]

Since I was kind of bored tonight, I thought I would take James Banta's conjecture (in red) and his issues with LDS repentance and add a little commentary with my questions to YOU, the non-LDS here:



Doesn't seem like a problem. If one is to repent of their sins they must feel a genuine sense of sorrow, an understanding of what they did that was an offense to God. To be healed from sickness one must first recognize they are sick.

What is wrong with this step according to you non-LDS?



Yes, we must confess our sins to God so He can forgive us. When LDS confess more grave sins (like adultry, as James knows about quite well) to the church leaders, it is not in order to receive any type of forgiveness since they have not the power to forgive. It is to receive their guidance and help in returning to the path of God and being an upstanding member of the church of God here on earth.

What is wrong with this step according to non-LDS?



If someone is to repent of adultry (James), then it makes perfect sense that true repentance requires that the person refrain from committing adultry again. When you repented of your adultry, James, did you quit doing it? Or are you of the opinion that one can simply ask for forgiveness of adultry on Friday and then go out and do it again on Sa****ay and then ask God for forgieness again in Sunday, only to go do it again on Monday?

That you claim "no one has ever abandoned sin" is a gross misrepresentation and misunderstanding on your part of the principle of repentance and forgiveness.

What is wrong with the idea of stopping the sin that is being repented of according to non-LDS?



When we repent, we need to correct the wrong. If I steal a bike from my neighbor, I am not truly repenting if I simply ask for God's forgiveness and then continue riding my newly ill-gotten bike in front of my neighbor's house.

Some sins cannot be restored, as James suggests, which is why we always need the atonement of Jesus. His atonement paid the price of our sins and it is through His atonement that the payment for the res***ution is made.

What is wrong with the principle of righting a wrong as part of our repentance process according to the non-LDS?




When one truly seeks reprentance, they do so with a spirit of wanting to follow God better, to become more like Him. That requires that we change aspects of our lifestyle in order to conform more to the path that God wants us to follow. If I repent of frequenting strip clubs, I am not truly repentant if I do not change my lifestyle and stop going to those strip clubs.

What is wrong with the principle of changing your lifestyle to be more righteous as part of the repentance process according to the non-LDS?

To quote Jesus of the Holy Bible, "don't let the left hand know what the right hand is doing."
My sins are no man's business. God of the Holy Bible knows how many hairs are on my head, so I have nothing to hid. Wait, there was this one time while I was in Atlanta..........:cool:

[James Banta]

Sir- We get what you are saying here and I for one would be happy to dialogue with you but have in the past and it went nowhere. Just let me make a point- when you attack someone personally about a sin they may (or may not have) committed, all it does is make your self-righteous at***ude even more apparent. Don't cast stones, especially in public, before you straighten up your own house.

I know you will agree with me that who ever says that they have no sin is a liar and the truth in not in them.. This is what I hear from the LDS here and everywhere. That they don't have sin in them. That they are by nature good. That the few times in their life that they do din they go through the steps I listed on another thread.. They can be forgiven of almost any sin but if a Christian sins and they find out about it they make it their life's work to drag it up again and again..

Yes I sinned and committed adultery. I was totally in myself having had walked away from God. Then I came to see that sin and the Holy Spirit convicted me and brought me back to the cross where I saw what my sin had caused in the suffering of my Lord.. I accepted His sacrifice for my sin and thanked Him for His grace..

Since that day I have failed again and again in many ways and in differing ways.. It doesn't matter I still fail but as Paul said it is no longer I, but sin that lives within me.. He continues to work in me conforming me to the image of Jesus but unlike many He has a lit of work to do to get me where He wants me to be.. IHS jim

[James Banta]

To quote Jesus of the Holy Bible, "don't let the left hand know what the right hand is doing."
My sins are no man's business. God of the Holy Bible knows how many hairs are on my head, so I have nothing to hid. Wait, there was this one time while I was in Atlanta..........:cool:

May God bless you as He works within you to change you into the image of His Son.. IHS jim

[Snow Patrol]

I know you will agree with me that who ever says that they have no sin is a liar and the truth in not in them.. This is what I hear from the LDS here and everywhere. That they don't have sin in them. That they are by nature good. That the few times in their life that they do din they go through the steps I listed on another thread..


You know, sometimes I wonder about your ability to perceive and understand LDS, even to the point that I wonder if you were really once LDS.

Mosiah 3:19

19 For the natural man is an enemy to God, and has been from the fall of Adam, and will be, forever and ever, unless he yields to the enticings of the Holy Spirit, and putteth off the natural man and becometh a saint through the atonement of Christ the Lord, and becometh as a child, submissive, meek, humble, patient, full of love, willing to submit to all things which the Lord seeth fit to inflict upon him, even as a child doth submit to his father.

It is in our scripture that the natural man is an enemy to God.

[RealFakeHair]

Mosiah 3:19

19 For the natural man is an enemy to God, and has been from the fall of Adam,(our mormon god and the only one we have to do with) and will be, forever and ever,(or unless the present LDS prophet over rules this.) unless he yields to the enticings of the (LDS- Holy Spirit), and putteth off the natural man (unless it was Joseph Smith jr, or Brigham Young, who could just bout do anything under the sun.)and becometh a saint, through the atonement of Christ the Lord, of all and becometh as a child, submissive, meek, humble, patient, full of love, willing to submit to all things which the Lord seeth fit to inflict upon him,( especially payment to the LDS inc. in form of a ***he) even as a child doth submit to his father.
(but only a LDS in good standing with a recommend father, all other fathers, forget about it!)It is in our scripture that the natural man is an enemy to God.[/QUOTE]
This is the way it reads in reformed egyptian.:eek:

[jdjhere]

JamesBanta stated: "Yes I sinned and committed adultery. I was totally in myself having had walked away from God. Then I came to see that sin and the Holy Spirit convicted me and brought me back to the cross where I saw what my sin had caused in the suffering of my Lord.. I accepted His sacrifice for my sin and thanked Him for His grace.."

Well JamesBanta, Jesus said if you even LOOK at a woman with lust in your heart that you are guilty, so guess what? Every guy here in this WM forum, at one time or another is his life, is GUILTY, including Sir. As males, our flesh is weak and that is part of the battle.

[Snow Patrol]

Since that day I have failed again and again in many ways and in differing ways.. It doesn't matter I still fail but as Paul said it is no longer I, but sin that lives within me.. He continues to work in me conforming me to the image of Jesus but unlike many He has a lit of work to do to get me where He wants me to be.. IHS jim


Maybe you could explain what this means. What do you mean that it is no longer YOU that sins, but sin that lives within you. If you go out and shoot someone, it really isn't you that is sinning?

[Sir]

JamesBanta stated: "Yes I sinned and committed adultery. I was totally in myself having had walked away from God. Then I came to see that sin and the Holy Spirit convicted me and brought me back to the cross where I saw what my sin had caused in the suffering of my Lord.. I accepted His sacrifice for my sin and thanked Him for His grace.."

Well JamesBanta, Jesus said if you even LOOK at a woman with lust in your heart that you are guilty, so guess what? Every guy here in this WM forum, at one time or another is his life, is GUILTY, including Sir. As males, our flesh is weak and that is part of the battle.



So according to JD's interpretation of the Bible, to think of a sin is the same as to act on it. There is no difference in gravity or severity.

I think this and the other line of thinking brought up in this thread about "It's not me that is sinning but the sin that is in me", are reasons that these Christians are so quick to shrug off sins as being no big deal. They simply believe that since they are "saved", nothing they do will affect that salvation, not even sins, so if you mess up and sin, it's no big deal because it isn't YOUR fault you are sinning because YOu are perfect in Jesus. It's simply that pesky sin that is inside you that is doing the bad stuff. "The devil made me do it" at***ude. And also this idea that, well, I've already thought about doing it so it is no different then if I actually DO commit it, so why not?

That is a problematic position for Christians because it actually mocks God and Jesus' atonement.

[Sir]

Since that day I have failed again and again in many ways and in differing ways.. It doesn't matter I still fail but as Paul said it is no longer I, but sin that lives within me.. He continues to work in me conforming me to the image of Jesus but unlike many He has a lit of work to do to get me where He wants me to be.. IHS jim

This sounds like you are simply a robot that is waiting for the next program to be executed. You only sin because of the sin that is programmed in you. You are not in the image of Jesus yet because Jesus hasn't programmed you to be where He wants you yet.

Yours is a gospel of blaming everything other than yourself for all that is right and all that is wrong. When you pretend that nothing you do is your fault and your postion with Jesus is not your fault or doing, it makes it so much easier to simply exist in i g n o r a n t bliss because you have everyone else to blame for your condition except yourself.

Yours is a sad interpretation of the gospel.

[Sir]

jdjhere,

Since you have chosen to go ahead and contribute to this thread, what are your positions to the bolded questions in the OP? What is your position on each of the points of repentance that James conjectured upon? Are the LDS positions acceptable? Why or why not?

[Snow Patrol]

Yours is a gospel of blaming everything other than yourself for all that is right and all that is wrong. When you pretend that nothing you do is your fault and your postion with Jesus is not your fault or doing, it makes it so much easier to simply exist in i g n o r a n t bliss because you have everyone else to blame for your condition except yourself.


Placing the blame is exactly the reason this is all so confusing. They say it is not them that sins, but the sin in them. Then why the need to repent? Why does God need to work on them if they aren't the one sinning? I just don't get this line of thinking.

[TheSword99]

You know, sometimes I wonder about your ability to perceive and understand LDS, even to the point that I wonder if you were really once LDS.

Mosiah 3:19

19 For the natural man is an enemy to God, and has been from the fall of Adam, and will be, forever and ever, unless he yields to the enticings of the Holy Spirit, and putteth off the natural man and becometh a saint through the atonement of Christ the Lord, and becometh as a child, submissive, meek, humble, patient, full of love, willing to submit to all things which the Lord seeth fit to inflict upon him, even as a child doth submit to his father.

It is in our scripture that the natural man is an enemy to God.

Why do we need to understand LDS? Its already been proven the mormon jesus was a man, married and fathered children. This isn't an attack, it's what the lds church taught.

Of course the natural man is an enmity of God. That's why you must be born again.

[jdjhere]

Sir stated: "jdjhere,

Since you have chosen to go ahead and contribute to this thread, what are your positions to the bolded questions in the OP? What is your position on each of the points of repentance that James conjectured upon? Are the LDS positions acceptable? Why or why not?

1. The sinner must have "Sorrow for Sin"
Of course. You have to recognize it IS sin and be sorry that you have sinned against God.
2. Then "Confess" the sin.
Of course. We need to confess that what we have done and deal with it and repent.
3. You have to stop sinning "Abandon Sin".
Of course. We need to repent of the sin (turn away from) and do our best NOT to sin anymore.
4. The sinner MUST make Res***ution.
Of course. If we have injured anybody (physically OR mentally) we need to try to make the wrong right again, then #5…
5. You must change your ways to "Righteous Living"
Of course but we do NOT always make it but we are to strive to be perfect as Jesus commanded. Unfortunately, our sin nature gets in the way at times and we do not always make it. Anybody that says they have NO sin is a liar, and the Truth is not in him. Sometimes we do actually repent and we change certain actions about ourselves. I believe it’s a lifelong process with the help of the Holy Spirit.

As a side note, there are lots of comments about Christians acting like sin is "no big deal," that we just sin on Sa****ay, ask for forgiveness on Sunday and act like it is no big deal. Just for me personally, you don’t even KNOW ME and have no idea what you are talking about. I realize EVERY SIN I commit is another pound of the nails in Christ's hands and feet. If you think I am not conscience about THAT then there is no sense in even dialoging with you. I know MANY LDS people and BELIEVE ME.... NONE of them are perfect or sinless.

[Sir]

Why do we need to understand LDS?

This is a great quote!!

Even in this thread another LDS-critic complained that he wasn't going to address the questions in the OP because he doesn't get serious conversation from LDS (me), and many other critics whine that their questions and conversations about Mormonism are ignored. But TheSword just showed us WHY many LDS choose not to bother!

When LDS people don't bother to address every claim made by the attackers, those critics then claim victory and claim that the LDS refusal to give them the time of day means that the LDS has no answer or has lost the debate. And yet when a LDS does engage in a conversation about LDS beliefs the critics make the wonderful comment that TheSword made above. Their ears are stopped, their eyes are shut, and their brains are turned off because they already think they know everything about LDS beliefs.





Its already been proven the mormon jesus was a man, married and fathered children. This isn't an attack, it's what the lds church taught.

So Jesus was never a man?

Some non-LDS believe Jesus was married. Some believe He had children.

Are people who believe this UN-Christian?

Would Jesus being married or having kids make Him any less divine?

[Sir]

Sir stated: "jdjhere,

Since you have chosen to go ahead and contribute to this thread, what are your positions to the bolded questions in the OP? What is your position on each of the points of repentance that James conjectured upon? Are the LDS positions acceptable? Why or why not?

1. The sinner must have "Sorrow for Sin"
Of course. You have to recognize it IS sin and be sorry that you have sinned against God.
2. Then "Confess" the sin.
Of course. We need to confess that what we have done and deal with it and repent.
3. You have to stop sinning "Abandon Sin".
Of course. We need to repent of the sin (turn away from) and do our best NOT to sin anymore.
4. The sinner MUST make Res***ution.
Of course. If we have injured anybody (physically OR mentally) we need to try to make the wrong right again, then #5…
5. You must change your ways to "Righteous Living"
Of course but we do NOT always make it but we are to strive to be perfect as Jesus commanded. Unfortunately, our sin nature gets in the way at times and we do not always make it. Anybody that says they have NO sin is a liar, and the Truth is not in him. Sometimes we do actually repent and we change certain actions about ourselves. I believe it’s a lifelong process with the help of the Holy Spirit.

So you agree with the LDS principles of repentance too.

Great!!

I wonder why other "christians" like James seem to have a problem with almost all of them. :confused:


As a side note, there are lots of comments about Christians acting like sin is "no big deal," that we just sin on Sa****ay, ask for forgiveness on Sunday and act like it is no big deal. Just for me personally, you don’t even KNOW ME and have no idea what you are talking about. I realize EVERY SIN I commit is another pound of the nails in Christ's hands and feet. If you think I am not conscience about THAT then there is no sense in even dialoging with you.

Well, you don't know me either. So does that mean you have no idea what YOU are talking about? ;)



I know MANY LDS people and BELIEVE ME.... NONE of them are perfect or sinless.

That's funny. Me too!!!!

So what? Whoever said anyone was sinless and perfect?

This is about repentance, not who is better than someone else.

[jdjhere]

Sir stated: "I appreciate your attempt at preaching not to cast stones while simultaneously calling me self-righteous. No irony there. None. "

Glad you feel that way. We are both sinners, you and me. I just thought you were attacking JamesBanta by repeating his name many times in "quotes" and it seemed fairly vindictive to me. If I misunderstood I apologize, Sir. Once we admit to God we have sinned and try to change it with the above steps, that sin is washed as WHITE as snow and is NO MORE. Thats what Jesus Christ has done for us with His blood and willingly going to the cross FOR US. There is no greater love than this.

[jdjhere]

Sir stated: "Well, you don't know me either. So does that mean you have no idea what YOU are talking about?"

No I don't know you but YOU (NOT me) made the statement about Christians, of which I AM one. So, explain to me what you meant when you said Christians act like sin is "no big deal."

Sir stated: (Post #13) "are reasons that these Christians are so quick to shrug off sins as being no big deal. They simply believe that since they are "saved", nothing they do will affect that salvation, not even sins, so if you mess up and sin, it's no big deal because ??it isn't YOUR fault?? you are sinning because You are perfect in Jesus."

This statement is simply NOT TRUE.

[Sir]

Sir stated: "Well, you don't know me either. So does that mean you have no idea what YOU are talking about?"

No I don't know you but YOU (NOT me) made the statement about Christians, of which I AM one. So, explain to me what you meant when you said Christians act like sin is "no big deal."

Sir stated: (Post #13) "are reasons that these Christians are so quick to shrug off sins as being no big deal. They simply believe that since they are "saved", nothing they do will affect that salvation, not even sins, so if you mess up and sin, it's no big deal because ??it isn't YOUR fault?? you are sinning because You are perfect in Jesus."

This statement is simply NOT TRUE.


Okay....some Christians.

Obviously not 100% of any group will believe the exact same. Even Mormons. So when critics claim that "Mormons believe...", remember your statement that maybe SOME Mormons believe...

And my statement IS true. No matter how much a Christian believes his sin is affecting Christ's suffering, when they simply blame the "sin" for sinning and claim they themselves are actually perfectly blameless because they are "saved, that's where the true understanding of sin and repentance is diminished in their "gospel". That's my take.

jdjhere: As a courtesy, could you use the quote function when quoting posts? It is difficult to read through your personal formatting. :)

[RealFakeHair]

Okay....some Christians.

Obviously not 100% of any group will believe the exact same. Even Mormons. So when critics claim that "Mormons believe...", remember your statement that maybe SOME Mormons believe...

And my statement IS true. No matter how much a Christian believes his sin is affecting Christ's suffering, when they simply blame the "sin" for sinning and claim they themselves are actually perfectly blameless because they are "saved, that's where the true understanding of sin and repentance is diminished in their "gospel". That's my take.

jdjhere: As a courtesy, could you use the quote function when quoting posts? It is difficult to read through your personal formatting. :)

I believe 100% of what I believe in, but the other 0% is adding up to more than what I can handel.

[James Banta]

You know, sometimes I wonder about your ability to perceive and understand LDS, even to the point that I wonder if you were really once LDS.

Mosiah 3:19

19 For the natural man is an enemy to God, and has been from the fall of Adam, and will be, forever and ever, unless he yields to the enticings of the Holy Spirit, and putteth off the natural man and becometh a saint through the atonement of Christ the Lord, and becometh as a child, submissive, meek, humble, patient, full of love, willing to submit to all things which the Lord seeth fit to inflict upon him, even as a child doth submit to his father.

It is in our scripture that the natural man is an enemy to God.

Yes I and I used that in my post.. But then I know nothing about the LDS scripture.. I can't help the fact that mormonism denies the doctrine that we are all sinners from our birth.. That we come into this world in a state of purity. Here is a flash for you.. There is NO ONE MORE NATURAL THAN A NEW BORN BABY.. These then according to the BofM are enemies of God.. After all they have not "yielded to the enticing of the Holy Spirit, and put off the natural man and have become a saint through the atonement of Christ the Lord".. No, what you teach about children is even outside the grace of God. Mormonism teaches that they are sinless. That they don't need Him for anything more than resurrection.. His atoning sacrifice means nothing to them because they violate the scripture and they have no sin.. Never mind that God see our heart (that is our very nature) and reports that it is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked.. He tell is that ALL of us are sinners. Not some, not Most, not even those old enough, but ALL OF US.. Children are part of that description..

Mormonism is great about showing how "Christian" it is until you look closely at how it belittles God and His word in it's false doctrines.. IHS jim

[James Banta]

JamesBanta stated: "Yes I sinned and committed adultery. I was totally in myself having had walked away from God. Then I came to see that sin and the Holy Spirit convicted me and brought me back to the cross where I saw what my sin had caused in the suffering of my Lord.. I accepted His sacrifice for my sin and thanked Him for His grace.."

Well JamesBanta, Jesus said if you even LOOK at a woman with lust in your heart that you are guilty, so guess what? Every guy here in this WM forum, at one time or another is his life, is GUILTY, including Sir. As males, our flesh is weak and that is part of the battle.

Thank you my brother for your support and understanding.. I am still sinning regularly for as I read God's word I am still guilty before Him for breaking all His Laws (James 2:10).. Still I was very guilty and as I have gained His promised forgiveness I thank you for yours as well.. IHS jim

[James Banta]

So according to JD's interpretation of the Bible, to think of a sin is the same as to act on it. There is no difference in gravity or severity.

I think this and the other line of thinking brought up in this thread about "It's not me that is sinning but the sin that is in me", are reasons that these Christians are so quick to shrug off sins as being no big deal. They simply believe that since they are "saved", nothing they do will affect that salvation, not even sins, so if you mess up and sin, it's no big deal because it isn't YOUR fault you are sinning because YOu are perfect in Jesus. It's simply that pesky sin that is inside you that is doing the bad stuff. "The devil made me do it" at***ude. And also this idea that, well, I've already thought about doing it so it is no different then if I actually DO commit it, so why not?

That is a problematic position for Christians because it actually mocks God and Jesus' atonement.

No son is no big deal.. All it caused was the entry of death into the world, the suffering of the Lord on that cruel Roman cross, and the destruction of countless souls that will be lost in the Lake of Fire.. Because God offers us forgiveness and justification as a free gift through faith in Jesus doesn't make the gift cheep or valueless. It is a gift that is beyond any value and beyond our ability to purchase. Your blasphemy would cheapen it and that is one more of your attacks on the Christian faith that you say you never make.. You insult our God, His might in creation, His work for our salvation. Then you get upset when we tell you that the Bible contradicts your doctrines on each point.. That God is One Lord, That God is Spirit, That He created all things, That He purchased our salvation with His own blood and gives it freely to all that believe.. IHS jim

[RealFakeHair]

Thank you my brother for your support and understanding.. I am still sinning regularly for as I read God's word I am still guilty before Him for breaking all His Laws (James 2:10).. Still I was very guilty and as I have gained His promised forgiveness I thank you for yours as well.. IHS jim

I've often wonder why so many people are worried about other peoples sins.
I can barely keep up with my own, like today, I've must have sinned 1.2 million times all ready. I wonder how many goats I gotta take to the LDS temple for sacrifice for my sins, anyone got an idea?
NO, James you are not quilty, as in the words of St Paul, " Liberty".
James, as a born againder you have taken of the Living Cup of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ of the Holy Bible, and the Cup is never empty!:)

[James Banta]

Sir stated: "jdjhere,

Since you have chosen to go ahead and contribute to this thread, what are your positions to the bolded questions in the OP? What is your position on each of the points of repentance that James conjectured upon? Are the LDS positions acceptable? Why or why not?

1. The sinner must have "Sorrow for Sin"
Of course. You have to recognize it IS sin and be sorry that you have sinned against God.
2. Then "Confess" the sin.
Of course. We need to confess that what we have done and deal with it and repent.
3. You have to stop sinning "Abandon Sin".
Of course. We need to repent of the sin (turn away from) and do our best NOT to sin anymore.
4. The sinner MUST make Res***ution.
Of course. If we have injured anybody (physically OR mentally) we need to try to make the wrong right again, then #5…
5. You must change your ways to "Righteous Living"
Of course but we do NOT always make it but we are to strive to be perfect as Jesus commanded. Unfortunately, our sin nature gets in the way at times and we do not always make it. Anybody that says they have NO sin is a liar, and the Truth is not in him. Sometimes we do actually repent and we change certain actions about ourselves. I believe it’s a lifelong process with the help of the Holy Spirit.

Does anyone Abandon sin or are we likely to sin again and again? Am I the only one alive that sins again and again or do others do this as well? Is it possible to make Res***ution for not keeping the Sabbath, or putting others or other things before God? Just what can we do to make a res***ution for these sins? Isn't the blood of our Lord enough? Can we really cover these sins on our own? Can we EARN our forgiveness through Righteous Living? Jesus said there is no one Good but God.. Through the prophet our efforts to be Righteous are called filthy rags.. We can cooperate with the Holy Spirit as He works within us conforming us to the image of Jesus, listening to Him as we fail and fail again and finally gain the victory over sin as we exit this body of death. But is that struggle the means by which we gain God's forgiveness? I say NO that forgiveness comes to us by His grace through faith in Jesus and in NO OTHER WAY..

I am sorry but the LDS step by step requirements for repentance is a formula for death since no one can walk in the condition they lay out for repentance.. IHS jim

[Snow Patrol]

Yes I and I used that in my post.. But then I know nothing about the LDS scripture.. I can't help the fact that mormonism denies the doctrine that we are all sinners from our birth.. That we come into this world in a state of purity. Here is a flash for you.. There is NO ONE MORE NATURAL THAN A NEW BORN BABY.. These then according to the BofM are enemies of God.. After all they have not "yielded to the enticing of the Holy Spirit, and put off the natural man and have become a saint through the atonement of Christ the Lord".. No, what you teach about children is even outside the grace of God. Mormonism teaches that they are sinless. That they don't need Him for anything more than resurrection.. His atoning sacrifice means nothing to them because they violate the scripture and they have no sin.. Never mind that God see our heart (that is our very nature) and reports that it is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked.. He tell is that ALL of us are sinners. Not some, not Most, not even those old enough, but ALL OF US.. Children are part of that description..

Mormonism is great about showing how "Christian" it is until you look closely at how it belittles God and His word in it's false doctrines.. IHS jim


Once again James you have shown you really don't get it. Anyone out there reading James' explanation of our beliefs should toss them out the window.

This whole post is so ridden with errors that it would take more time than I have to prove it all wrong.

Put simply, the LDS believe children are without sin and protected from the fall of Adam by the atonement of Jesus Christ. Children, even babies, are without sin because they are incapable of consciously choosing to sin. Do they sin? Yes. They are not sinless. However, because they can not understand the law and consciously choose to sin or not they are 100% covered by the atonement of Jesus Christ. Please refer to Moroni 8.

[James Banta]

So Jesus was never a man?

Some non-LDS believe Jesus was married. Some believe He had children.

Are people who believe this UN-Christian?

Would Jesus being married or having kids make Him any less divine?

Yes Jesus was human.. He was 100% human.. Yet He is always God. He is 100% God and in that He is the Only God that exists or will ever exist.. He didn't come here to be a man and submit to the world in any way. Yes being a husband and a natural father would take away from His Godhood. This would make Jesus a servant of the pleasures of mortality and diminish His place as the everlasting Father.. Also this would place a divine bloodline into mortality. These would when be worshiped as semi divine beings.. God knew all these things. And we seeing that man is so very susceptible to idolatry would easily fall into such a trap.. yes holding such false teachings are UN-Christian and those that hold them are pagan not Christian.. IHS jim

[Sir]

This whole post is so ridden with errors that it would take more time than I have to prove it all wrong.

Please refer to Moroni 8.

I thought the same thing while reading. Thought to myself, "Was James REALLY a Mormon in the past? Because he comes up with so many statements of what LDS people believe that are completely false and opposite of the truth that it makes one wonder if he really was LDS before. But then again, if that is a sign of his knowledge of Mormonism, it explains why he ended up leaving the church, since he didn't understand its doctrines to begin with. So I guess it DOES make sense"

[James Banta]

Once again James you have shown you really don't get it. Anyone out there reading James' explanation of our beliefs should toss them out the window.

This whole post is so ridden with errors that it would take more time than I have to prove it all wrong.

Put simply, the LDS believe children are without sin and protected from the fall of Adam by the atonement of Jesus Christ. Children, even babies, are without sin because they are incapable of consciously choosing to sin. Do they sin? Yes. They are not sinless. However, because they can not understand the law and consciously choose to sin or not they are 100% covered by the atonement of Jesus Christ. Please refer to Moroni 8.

here is the difference between us.. LDS teach that a person becomes a sinner through the commission of sin.. The Bible teaches that we are sinners because that is our nature.. We sin because we are sinners by nature.. A new born's nature is that of a sinner.. A 2 year old will stand in front of you and deny taking the candy even though their face and hands are covered in chocolate. Have we taught them to lie? What parent sits down and teaches their child to lie? And yet they lie!!! Instead of referring you to a lie like the BofM I refer you to God's truth (Psalm 51:5). I refer you to the word "ALL". It is inclusive to any human being that ever existed not just to adults.. And the Bible is Clear ALL HAVE SINNED (Romans 3:23)..

I don't believe that the BofM is anything more than the words of Joseph Smith. He was a liar and a fraud from the beginning of His days and when the BofM was published his fraud was just getting started.. He is one that is accursed for teachings different gospel. He is one that gave false prophecy and made excuses for God on that He didn't have the power to overcome the power of mere men to make it possible that believers could keep His commandments.. The Bible has been shown many times to be God's word. Even mormonism says it is as long as you see though errors that God said He would never allow to be included.. So stay with that which I accept as scripture and show me that I am wrong..

I can use the BofM to show you that mormonism is wrong because you accept it as God's word. You can't use it as a reference to show your points to me because I deny it as truth. Sorry Moroni 8 is meaningless as a reference. I will say that mormonism teaches contradiction at every turn. In Mosiah the natural man is called and enemy and then in Moroni where children are said to be incapable of committing sin. then the Bible says we all sin, and you call it scripture as well? The inconsistencies of mormonism are gigantic.. IHS jim

[Snow Patrol]

here is the difference between us.. LDS teach that a person becomes a sinner through the commission of sin.. The Bible teaches that we are sinners because that is our nature.. We sin because we are sinners by nature.. A new born's nature is that of a sinner.. A 2 year old will stand in front of you and deny taking the candy even though their face and hands are covered in chocolate. Have we taught them to lie? What parent sits down and teaches their child to lie? And yet they lie!!! Instead of referring you to a lie like the BofM I refer you to God's truth (Psalm 51:5). I refer you to the word "ALL". It is inclusive to any human being that ever existed not just to adults.. And the Bible is Clear ALL HAVE SINNED (Romans 3:23)..

Not really different. The basic doctrine is that ALL children under the age of eight are covered by the atonement of Christ.




I can use the BofM to show you that mormonism is wrong because you accept it as God's word. You can't use it as a reference to show your points to me because I deny it as truth. Sorry Moroni 8 is meaningless as a reference.


It is a perfect reference to show your inability to understand LDS beliefs and teachings. That is all I'm doing. I know that I'll never be able to prove the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon to you. That is not my purpose. My purpose is to show how wrong you are when you try to tell others what our beliefs are.

[James Banta]

I thought the same thing while reading. Thought to myself, "Was James REALLY a Mormon in the past? Because he comes up with so many statements of what LDS people believe that are completely false and opposite of the truth that it makes one wonder if he really was LDS before. But then again, if that is a sign of his knowledge of Mormonism, it explains why he ended up leaving the church, since he didn't understand its doctrines to begin with. So I guess it DOES make sense"

Thank both of you!!! It is wonderful to have people believe that I was never connected to the LDS church at all.. I have been told the strangest things on here and on CARM by LDS that the Church no ways believes especially by Bert.. Other have told me if progression between kingdoms, and God still progresses in knowledge and glory.. Other contradict these strange ideas.. On short there is no LDS doctrine.. It's what ever the brothern hold to be the churches teaching at the time.. You know that.. Brigham Young taught that Adam was God for years.. It was LDS doctrine in 1852 but today teaching it will get you exed.. With the Lord this would be impossible because He nor His Gospel changes. But Mormonism is another matter.. Even the scripture has changed over 3,000 times.. Doctrines such as the Trinity, the nature of God, the use of magic, the connection to masonry, and polygamy.. It is all different today there is no such thing as mormon doctrine.. IHS jim

[James Banta]

Not really different. The basic doctrine is that ALL children under the age of eight are covered by the atonement of Christ.

It is a perfect reference to show your inability to understand LDS beliefs and teachings. That is all I'm doing. I know that I'll never be able to prove the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon to you. That is not my purpose. My purpose is to show how wrong you are when you try to tell others what our beliefs are.

And those that are slower than the Norm, what of them? They have no way of understand the concept of sin and yet this arbitrary age is set and I have seen nothing to give dispensation to such that are slower than normal mentally.

So you deny the Mosiah p***age? Good so do I! You wish to cling to the Moroni p***age through.. That is too bad it is just and man invented as Mosiah.. But if the Mosiah p***age is erred and false what makes you believe that the Moroni p***age is correct? They teach contradicting tenets, so which is the lie and which is the truth? IHS jim

[James Banta]

jdjhere,

Since you have chosen to go ahead and contribute to this thread, what are your positions to the bolded questions in the OP? What is your position on each of the points of repentance that James conjectured upon? Are the LDS positions acceptable? Why or why not?

The points of LDS repentance were taken direct from LDS.org clearly an anti mormonism source.. I turn to your own repentance (the conjecture is is that you did indeed experienced repentance) have you lived 100% clean before God since that day? Whether it was at your baptism or some time before you were baptized. You had to live live totally righteously to proved that you had real repentance.. Did you? Or since that have have you sinned? Of you have then your repentance according to the LDS model of repentance is worthless because of the later sin.. Go to LDS.org yourself and read the steps. I read what it said.. You can never sin again after repentance or the repentance wasn't real.. You should question either your repentance or the LDS doctrine of repentance.. IHS jim

[Snow Patrol]

And those that are slower than the Norm, what of them? They have no way of understand the concept of sin and yet this arbitrary age is set and I have seen nothing to give dispensation to such that are slower than normal mentally.


If their mental capacity is of a child then they are covered.

[Sir]

The points of LDS repentance were taken direct from LDS.org clearly an anti mormonism source.. I turn to your own repentance (the conjecture is is that you did indeed experienced repentance) have you lived 100% clean before God since that day? Whether it was at your baptism or some time before you were baptized. You had to live live totally righteously to proved that you had real repentance.. Did you? Or since that have have you sinned? Of you have then your repentance according to the LDS model of repentance is worthless because of the later sin.. Go to LDS.org yourself and read the steps. I read what it said.. You can never sin again after repentance or the repentance wasn't real.. You should question either your repentance or the LDS doctrine of repentance.. IHS jim

I don't take issue with the steps you posted.

I find it funny that so far, of the LDS and non-LDS in this thread, you seem to be the only one who has issues with them.

As for your other post, it isn't the LDS doctrine that has me wondering if you were really LDS. It is your presentation of what YOU claim to be Mormon doctrine and how false it is. You cannot even present a truthful interpretation of the Book of Mormon, let alone the more obscure doctrines.

[TheSword99]

I don't take issue with the steps you posted.

I find it funny that so far, of the LDS and non-LDS in this thread, you seem to be the only one who has issues with them.

As for your other post, it isn't the LDS doctrine that has me wondering if you were really LDS. It is your presentation of what YOU claim to be Mormon doctrine and how false it is. You cannot even present a truthful interpretation of the Book of Mormon, let alone the more obscure doctrines.

Why do you presume you have anything to teach Christians? Since the foundation of mormonism is in error, every teaching that comes from that will be erroneous. You have you own books and a hodgepodge of writings from leaders that disagree and whose teachings have been tossed out and replaced. You have your own god, jesus and a completely different gospel. Any doctrine coming out of these man-made beliefs will always be false.

You need to get right with God before its too late and throw out your books and read only the Holly Scriptures. Therein you will find life.

[Sir]

Why do you presume you have anything to teach Christians?

The same reason you presume to have something to teach LDS.

However, as is obvious by your statements like that one above, you are not humble nor teachable, which is a real tragedy and an irony in the realm of spiritual learning. :)

[jdjhere]

Sir stated: So according to JD's interpretation of the Bible, to think of a sin is the same as to act on it. There is no difference in gravity or severity.

I never said this. Sin is sin. If we have ANY sin we are not worthy to be with an infinitely Holy, Righteous, Just and Good God and are also worthy of death. If we even look at a woman with lust in our heart then we are guilty of impure thoughts and we have committed adultery IN OUR HEARTS. If we actually ACT IT OUT, then we are setting ourselves up for even MORE problems (venereal diseases, breakups of families, lying, etc...) so I DO believe that some sins are worse in Gods eyes than others but it doesn't matter because if we have the LEAST LITTLE STAIN of sin we are guilty and not worthy. That is the point Jesus was trying to make in His example of even looking at a woman with lust in your heart... we are guilty guilty guilty... and His Blood keeps on cleansing us from all sin and no one comes to the Father but by Him.

[James Banta]

If their mental capacity is of a child then they are covered.

Show me in LDS scripture where that is addressed. You or any man can say it but if it';s not is the scriptures it isn't what the church believes as doctrine.. I have been told that again and again from many of you, so can we go by what prophets have said about points of faith and hold their teachings as doctrine or do we ONLY go by the scripture? You can't have it both ways.. IHS jim

[James Banta]

Maybe you could explain what this means. What do you mean that it is no longer YOU that sins, but sin that lives within you. If you go out and shoot someone, it really isn't you that is sinning?

I read what the scripture teaches and believe what it as it is stated:


Romans 7:14-20
For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin.
For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate.
But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good.
So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.
For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not.
For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want.
But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.

I believe the Bible to be the inerrant Word of God. It says what it says and if you can read the English language you can see what I believe because it is just what the Bible here teaches.. Once a person has repented, they no longer sin but because they still live within these bodies of death sin lives there inside that body.. It is that body of sin that lives there in them that sins not the believer.. Do you see some other meaning that meets the intent of the p***age? I doubt it.. This is just a p***age that mormonism calls corrupted by the GandAC.. But This doctrine is also hard to find within the Catholic church as well and the LDS church.. IHS jim

[James Banta]

Placing the blame is exactly the reason this is all so confusing. They say it is not them that sins, but the sin in them. Then why the need to repent? Why does God need to work on them if they aren't the one sinning? I just don't get this line of thinking.

Yes in a way, we all sin because we are all sinners.. When Faith in Jesus is born within us and we are Born Again we become a new creation. The problem is that we still live in the body of death and sin. Is sin still being committed by my old self the natural part of who i am, YES. This p***age teaches us that when we (the Christian) sins it is this old nature this natural man that is sinning and not the new creation that is created in the image of Jesus.. If you still want to deny this you must deny the teaching preserved for us in God's word the Bible.. You nor any LDS I have ever quoted this p***age scoff at it but none has ever offered a interpretation that meets the message of the p***age.. IHS jim

[James Banta]

This sounds like you are simply a robot that is waiting for the next program to be executed. You only sin because of the sin that is programmed in you. You are not in the image of Jesus yet because Jesus hasn't programmed you to be where He wants you yet.

Yours is a gospel of blaming everything other than yourself for all that is right and all that is wrong. When you pretend that nothing you do is your fault and your postion with Jesus is not your fault or doing, it makes it so much easier to simply exist in i g n o r a n t bliss because you have everyone else to blame for your condition except yourself.

Yours is a sad interpretation of the gospel.

For the Christian the sin is blamed for sin.. WE are forgiven of all our sin. He became sin in our place so that we can be made the righteousness of God in Him (2 Corinthians 5:21). So the LDS now believe that someone with the righteousness of God is still committing sin? The problem is we all do still sin.. Explain how the Bible can be true except is cases you don't like. like this p***age from Romans 7. It is a Biblical teaching and is correct as I have quoted it.. IHS jim

[James Banta]

I don't take issue with the steps you posted.

I find it funny that so far, of the LDS and non-LDS in this thread, you seem to be the only one who has issues with them.

As for your other post, it isn't the LDS doctrine that has me wondering if you were really LDS. It is your presentation of what YOU claim to be Mormon doctrine and how false it is. You cannot even present a truthful interpretation of the Book of Mormon, let alone the more obscure doctrines.

WIW, how shocking those that don't believe in the God of the Bible, those that deny that Jesus is the Mighty God. the Everlasting Father, those that deny that He imputes His righteousness on all who hold faith in Him are the ones that deny the truth of Romans 7:13-20.. All you have done here is confirm that mormons don't believe the Bible and have accepted in it's place the teachings of a man..

I am the only one that has given an interpretation of the Mosiah p***age.. I see it is conflict with the Moroni p***age.. You have NOT bothered to show how these p***ages work together.. I asked for you to do so and all i have gotten to that question is "your presentation of what YOU claim to be Mormon doctrine and how false it is. You cannot even present a truthful interpretation of the Book of Mormon, let alone the more obscure doctrines".. How does that explain that I was even wrong much less what the p***age is actually teaching.. I read English.. This p***age is written in English.. I expect it to mean what it says.. You are telling me that what the p***age says isn't necessarily what it means.. I disagree.. IHS jim

[James Banta]

Why do you presume you have anything to teach Christians? Since the foundation of mormonism is in error, every teaching that comes from that will be erroneous. You have you own books and a hodgepodge of writings from leaders that disagree and whose teachings have been tossed out and replaced. You have your own god, jesus and a completely different gospel. Any doctrine coming out of these man-made beliefs will always be false.

You need to get right with God before its too late and throw out your books and read only the Holly Scriptures. Therein you will find life.

We aren't right because we reject a church? I see mormons as not right with God because they reject Him and turn to the imaginations of a mere man is God's place! That is a huge difference.. IHS jim

[Sir]

Sir stated: So according to JD's interpretation of the Bible, to think of a sin is the same as to act on it. There is no difference in gravity or severity.

I never said this. Sin is sin. If we have ANY sin we are not worthy to be with an infinitely Holy, Righteous, Just and Good God and are also worthy of death. If we even look at a woman with lust in our heart then we are guilty of impure thoughts and we have committed adultery IN OUR HEARTS. If we actually ACT IT OUT, then we are setting ourselves up for even MORE problems (venereal diseases, breakups of families, lying, etc...) so I DO believe that some sins are worse in Gods eyes than others but it doesn't matter because if we have the LEAST LITTLE STAIN of sin we are guilty and not worthy. That is the point Jesus was trying to make in His example of even looking at a woman with lust in your heart... we are guilty guilty guilty... and His Blood keeps on cleansing us from all sin and no one comes to the Father but by Him.

So you agree that some sins are worse/ more severe than others.

I can agree with this.

Okay.

[Sir]

WIW, how shocking those that don't believe in the God of the Bible, those that deny that Jesus is the Mighty God. the Everlasting Father, those that deny that He imputes His righteousness on all who hold faith in Him are the ones that deny the truth of Romans 7:13-20.. All you have done here is confirm that mormons don't believe the Bible and have accepted in it's place the teachings of a man..

I am the only one that has given an interpretation of the Mosiah p***age.. I see it is conflict with the Moroni p***age.. You have NOT bothered to show how these p***ages work together.. I asked for you to do so and all i have gotten to that question is "your presentation of what YOU claim to be Mormon doctrine and how false it is. You cannot even present a truthful interpretation of the Book of Mormon, let alone the more obscure doctrines".. How does that explain that I was even wrong much less what the p***age is actually teaching.. I read English.. This p***age is written in English.. I expect it to mean what it says.. You are telling me that what the p***age says isn't necessarily what it means.. I disagree.. IHS jim

Your first paragragh above is why LDS like myself don't bother spending any time trying to get you to see the correct POV on the Book of Mormon. You already have your own false beliefs and no matter what will continue to propogate a lie, like in the first paragraph.

So it's kind of pointless to do anything with you except point out the obvious problems in your attacks. If you can't even attack others' beliefs with truth, then no point in engaging in truth with you. :)

[James Banta]

So you agree that some sins are worse/ more severe than others.

I can agree with this.

Okay.

All sin is just that sin.. One is just as serious as the other.. All sin brings one punishment DEATH.. Just which sins are greater than the others? A person found guilty of any of then before the judgement seat of God will be guilty of all sin even denial of the Holy Spirit and there will never be any forgiveness.. Look at Rev 21:8 tell me is unbelieving, or lying less of a sin than murder or adultery? They are all listed together with one punishment.. You have to show through the Bible that son differs in severity.. I don't think you can show that it does.. IHS jim

[James Banta]

Your first paragragh above is why LDS like myself don't bother spending any time trying to get you to see the correct POV on the Book of Mormon. You already have your own false beliefs and no matter what will continue to propogate a lie, like in the first paragraph.

So it's kind of pointless to do anything with you except point out the obvious problems in your attacks. If you can't even attack others' beliefs with truth, then no point in engaging in truth with you. :)

It is YOU that deny the doctrines found in the Bible not me.. The only way I believe you can do that is to attack the Bible as being corrupt.. Now I see by quoting it you accuse me of lying.. You call good (the Bible) evil (Corrupt) and and evil (Words made up by a man) good (scripture).. If you can't defend your pwn corrupted church and it's words of a man then STOP POSTING.. IHS jim

[Sir]

All sin is just that sin.. One is just as serious as the other.. All sin brings one punishment DEATH.. Just which sins are greater than the others? A person found guilty of any of then before the judgement seat of God will be guilty of all sin even denial of the Holy Spirit and there will never be any forgiveness.. Look at Rev 21:8 tell me is unbelieving, or lying less of a sin than murder or adultery? They are all listed together with one punishment.. You have to show through the Bible that son differs in severity.. I don't think you can show that it does.. IHS jim

One of your own here disagrees with you, James.

Does that mean he is a pagan and UNchristian?

I'm fine if you want to believe that thinking of stealing an ice cream cone is the same exact severity of sin as the guy that just murdered 26 people in CT.

Rational and logical people know that there is indeed a difference.

Even our fallen mortal natures understand that some crimes are greater than others and people are judges accordingly.

But you make my point once again. People that believe the thought of a sin is just as severe as the act of the sin, are more likely to just act on it since there isn't a difference in their minds.

[James Banta]

One of your own here disagrees with you, James.

Does that mean he is a pagan and UNchristian?

I'm fine if you want to believe that thinking of stealing an ice cream cone is the same exact severity of sin as the guy that just murdered 26 people in CT.

Rational and logical people know that there is indeed a difference.

Even our fallen mortal natures understand that some crimes are greater than others and people are judges accordingly.

But you make my point once again. People that believe the thought of a sin is just as severe as the act of the sin, are more likely to just act on it since there isn't a difference in their minds.

I have spoken to all of them that you think disagree.. While they see the conditions mormonism teaching as imperatives for repentance as the way they would really love to live, they disagree that living a life without the flesh and sin coming out in our thoughts and action is possible as long as we live in this body of death.. Not one of us want to sin.. It been said many times that all we need to do is say we believe in Jesus and we can then sen all we want.. That isn't quite true. Those of us that truly believe sin much more then we want.. What I see in the LDS is sinners that ignore their sin.. Therefore they say that they just don't sin.. I saw one of my brothers here tell us all the truth.. He has well over 1,000 sins committed BEFORE BREAKFAST.. He knows His place before a Holy God.. The LDS don't seem to understand they are in that same place as we concerning sin.. IHS jim

[James Banta]

I've often wonder why so many people are worried about other peoples sins.
I can barely keep up with my own, like today, I've must have sinned 1.2 million times all ready. I wonder how many goats I gotta take to the LDS temple for sacrifice for my sins, anyone got an idea?
NO, James you are not quilty, as in the words of St Paul, " Liberty".
James, as a born againder you have taken of the Living Cup of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ of the Holy Bible, and the Cup is never empty!:)

It's a good thing I can come to the cup of His Spirit again and again because my spirit leaks.. IHS jim

[dberrie2000]

No I don't know you but YOU (NOT me) made the statement about Christians, of which I AM one. So, explain to me what you meant when you said Christians act like sin is "no big deal."

Sir stated: (Post #13) "are reasons that these Christians are so quick to shrug off sins as being no big deal. They simply believe that since they are "saved", nothing they do will affect that salvation, not even sins, so if you mess up and sin, it's no big deal because ??it isn't YOUR fault?? you are sinning because You are perfect in Jesus."

This statement is simply NOT TRUE.

Maybe--but there is one thing for sure--the faith alone do not relate acts of obedience to Jesus Christ with His grace unto eternal life.

They are faith that is alone for salvation.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by jdjhere
No I don't know you but YOU (NOT me) made the statement about Christians, of which I AM one. So, explain to me what you meant when you said Christians act like sin is "no big deal."

Sir stated: (Post #13) "are reasons that these Christians are so quick to shrug off sins as being no big deal. They simply believe that since they are "saved", nothing they do will affect that salvation, not even sins, so if you mess up and sin, it's no big deal because ??it isn't YOUR fault?? you are sinning because You are perfect in Jesus."

This statement is simply NOT TRUE.


Maybe--but there is one thing for sure--the faith alone do not relate acts of obedience to Jesus Christ with His grace unto eternal life.

They are faith that is alone for salvation.


Bump for JD

[James Banta]

Bump for JD

What refutes obedience as the way to salvation is the fact that NO ONE is obedient.. If obedience were the only way to salvation no one could ever be saved.. Because of this God in His wisdom made it possible for a man to be perfect before Him bu imputing the righteousness of His Son in those that believe (Romans 4:24).. IHS jim

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by jdjhereNo I don't know you but YOU (NOT me) made the statement about Christians, of which I AM one. So, explain to me what you meant when you said Christians act like sin is "no big deal."

Sir stated: (Post #13) "are reasons that these Christians are so quick to shrug off sins as being no big deal. They simply believe that since they are "saved", nothing they do will affect that salvation, not even sins, so if you mess up and sin, it's no big deal because ??it isn't YOUR fault?? you are sinning because You are perfect in Jesus."

This statement is simply NOT TRUE.


Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post---Maybe--but there is one thing for sure--the faith alone do not relate acts of obedience to Jesus Christ with His grace unto eternal life.

They are faith that is alone for salvation.


Bump for JD or anyone who believes the faith alone do not teach a faith that is alone for salvation.

[James Banta]

Bump for JD or anyone who believes the faith alone do not teach a faith that is alone for salvation.

I have no idea what you are asking for here. I would love to have you restate it so that the statements makes some sense.. As for faith being the means to unlock God's grace, that is a truism.. We are saved by God's grace through Faith in Jesus and NOT OF WORKS.. If we were saved by works we would have something of to boast. But being saved 100% by God's grace we have nothing to boast. I have told you and shown you many times DB that we all sin DAILY.. In what we think, what we say, in what we do, and even in what we neglect to do.. All of us fall short of God's righteousness in our every breath. And that is being disobedient, for the command given to us by Jesus is to "BE PERFECT AS THE FATHER IN HEAVEN IS PERFECT". Because this is His commandment, failing short of keeping it puts us in sin before God. You know what the wages of our sin is? DEATH! That understood tell me just how obedience can make up for our disobedience? Without the imputed righteousness of Jesus we can be nothing than what we are, Sinners. And if sinners then children of wrath, those cast into the Lake of Fire.

Can baptism erase our sin? Mere water covering our bodies? How when we turn around and start sinning again right after walking out of the faunt? The baptism we need is an eternal washing and that is only possible by the Blood of the Lamb. If the Holy Spirit taught us through the Apostle Paul that we are imputed with the righteousness of God though Faith in Jesus as Abram was because he believed God then our faith becomes our obedience through the righteousness of the Lord. There is no way out, works of obedience mixed with out works of disobedience can't be called righteousness.. I have shown you before in James chapter 2 that keeping the whole Law except for one point makes us guilty of breaking the whole of the Law.. And what is the Law if not the commandments of God? We aren't talking about just the 10 commandments here. Understand that is the sermon on the mount Jesus intensified the Law to include the thoughts and desires of our heart. He commanded us to have the perfection of God.. So if we fail in any of that James tells us we are guilty of the whole Law.. Where is your obedience then.. YOU HAVE NONE. Faith alone is NOT A FREE P*** TO SIN.. No Christian sins as much as they want, we all sin much more than we want.. We don't want to sin at ALL.. If any man wants to sin and sees God's grace as license to do so he is NOT saved, he is NOT a child of God, not a Christian. I get the feeling that is what you see the grace of God as. Because of that I can't see you as having been added to membership in the Lord's Church.. Without that your salvation is clearly in serious question. IHS jim

[theway]

What refutes obedience as the way to salvation is the fact that NO ONE is obedient.. If obedience were the only way to salvation no one could ever be saved.. Because of this God in His wisdom made it possible for a man to be perfect before Him bu imputing the righteousness of His Son in those that believe (Romans 4:24).. IHS jimOh... I see.... So you believe that a person can refuse to obey God, and still be saved??? good to know.

[dberrie2000]

I have no idea what you are asking for here. I would love to have you restate it so that the statements makes some sense.. As for faith being the means to unlock God's grace, that is a truism.. We are saved by God's grace through Faith in Jesus and NOT OF WORKS..

Agreed. But if faith unlocks God's grace--is that dead faith you are referring to?


James 2:20-26---King James Version (KJV)


20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

[James Banta]

Agreed. But if faith unlocks God's grace--is that dead faith you are referring to?


James 2:20-26---King James Version (KJV)


20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Not at all it is a faith that brings us to be the hands of the Lord in:

James 2:4, 7, 8, 13, 15
No showing partiality. Not blaspheming that worthy name by the which we are called. Loving our neighbors. Showing mercy, clothing the naked, and feeding the hungry. These are the works that show forth a persons faith.. These are the list of works right in the p***age.. Baptism, laying on of hands, being married, and enduring to the end in righteousness are not mentioned.. IHS jim

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by James Banta View Post-- As for faith being the means to unlock God's grace, that is a truism.. We are saved by God's grace through Faith in Jesus and NOT OF WORKS..


Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post---Agreed. But if faith unlocks God's grace--is that dead faith you are referring to?


James 2:20-26---King James Version (KJV)


20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.




Not at all it is a faith that brings us to be the hands of the Lord in:

Well--if it is not dead faith--then it is faith with works. Faith alone falls. End of story.

[Billyray]

Well--if it is not dead faith--then it is faith with works. Faith alone falls. End of story.

You have already told me that faith precedes works. Don't you hold that position anymore?

[dberrie2000]

You have already told me that faith precedes works. Don't you hold that position anymore?

I believe what I have told you is that faith precedes obedience to Christ--but faith is still dead faith without obedience to Jesus Christ. Even the devils believe. The faith alone make it out that one is somehow saved at the point of belief, and then obedience to Jesus Christ. The scriptures have it quite differently:


John 5:28-29---King James Version (KJV)


28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation.


That has all being judged according to works--AFTER DEATH--and that for life or ****ation.

[Billyray]

I believe what I have told you is that faith precedes obedience to Christ--but faith is still dead faith without obedience to Jesus Christ.

LDS Article of Faith

4. We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.

So the faith spoken about in the above article of faith is dead faith since it precedes works?

[dberrie2000]

LDS Article of Faith

4. We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.

So the faith spoken about in the above article of faith is dead faith since it precedes works?

Yes. Without repentance and water baptism--faith in Christ is dead faith--or, it cannot bring His grace unto life.

[Billyray]

Yes.

So you agree that the faith spoken about in the article of faith is dead faith since it proceeds any works?

[dberrie2000]

So you agree that the faith spoken about in the article of faith is dead faith since it proceeds any works?

Yes. Any faith that precedes works is dead faith--when we take that faith and obey Christ--it becomes living faith. Having faith in Christ--absent of obedience to Christ--will not save a single soul. It's not saving faith.

[Billyray]

Yes. Any faith that precedes works is dead faith--when we take that faith and obey Christ--it becomes living faith. Having faith in Christ--absent of obedience to Christ--will not save a single soul. It's not saving faith.

So you earn true faith by adding works?

[dberrie2000]

So you earn true faith by adding works?

Is this an example of adding works to earn true faith?


Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)


38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Is that an example of earning God's grace? The faith alone apparently believe so. They deny that verse is even true. They must have God giving His grace independent of any acts of obedience to Jesus Christ--and the Biblical verses just will not support that.

[Billyray]

Is this an example of adding works to earn true faith?


Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)


38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Is that an example of earning God's grace? The faith alone apparently believe so. They deny that verse is even true. They must have God giving His grace independent of any acts of obedience to Jesus Christ--and the Biblical verses just will not support that.

Not at all. A person either has faith or he does not. Your concept that a person has to earn faith by works is false.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post---Is this an example of adding works to earn true faith?


Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)


38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Is that an example of earning God's grace? The faith alone apparently believe so. They deny that verse is even true. They must have God giving His grace independent of any acts of obedience to Jesus Christ--and the Biblical verses just will not support that.


Not at all.

Yes--at all. The faith alone disclaim any acts of obedience that is necessary for God's grace unto life. It is faith that is alone for salvation.


A person either has faith or he does not.

That's not true either:


James 2:20----King James Version (KJV)


20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?


A person can have dead faith. Do you believe dead faith is a saving faith?


Your concept that a person has to earn faith by works is false.

My concept is exactly what James bears witness to--that faith without works is dead:

James 2:20----King James Version (KJV)

20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?


Is that what you are referring to--one must have works to avoid dead faith?

[Billyray]

Yes--at all. The faith alone disclaim any acts of obedience that is necessary for God's grace unto life. It is faith that is alone for salvation.


After all of these years do you even have a clue why we believe this? Perhaps you could explain this verse for me.

Romans 4: 5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post---Yes--at all. The faith alone disclaim any acts of obedience that is necessary for God's grace unto life. It is faith that is alone for salvation.


After all of these years do you even have a clue why we believe this?

That's just it, Billyray. I know too well what the faith alone believe--and it is exactly what I stated--faith that is alone for salvation.

[Billyray]

That's just it, Billyray. I know too well what the faith alone believe--and it is exactly what I stated--faith that is alone for salvation.
Romans 4: 5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.

Why don't you go ahead and tell me what this verse means?

[James Banta]

Well--if it is not dead faith--then it is faith with works. Faith alone falls. End of story.

It is God's grace given to all people of faith that saves. Faith not just a head knowledge.. Knowing isn't enough one must have real live faith.. That faith that is a gift of God. Not a faith conceived by a person's own will. Not a feeling but a reliance on God to be, and do, exactly what He said He is, and has done.. God has told is through the Person of the Son that He is Spirit. Through the person of the Holy Spirit He has told us that He is one Lord, that no other God existed before God, and no other ever will exist. That He who knows all things doesn't know of the existence of any other God. Jesus made it clear that the work of God is to believe on Him whom He sent.. We therefore must believe on God has He has explained Himself to us.. As Spirit, as invisible without a body of flesh an bone as we have.. Do the LDS hold such a Person as God? NO! Living faith is to trust in the living God and not a myth.. Any God explained in violation of the truth He has given to is is dead faith.. IHS jim

[James Banta]

You know, sometimes I wonder about your ability to perceive and understand LDS, even to the point that I wonder if you were really once LDS.

Mosiah 3:19

19 For the natural man is an enemy to God, and has been from the fall of Adam, and will be, forever and ever, unless he yields to the enticings of the Holy Spirit, and putteth off the natural man and becometh a saint through the atonement of Christ the Lord, and becometh as a child, submissive, meek, humble, patient, full of love, willing to submit to all things which the Lord seeth fit to inflict upon him, even as a child doth submit to his father.

It is in our scripture that the natural man is an enemy to God.

We are all born natural are we not? Born onto a world of sin. Born enemies of God because we are all natural at birth.. It isn't I that is missing the mark here, it is mormonism. Trying to teach that being natural we are enemies of God, and yet denying that little children are enemies but actually pure.. This is a conflicting teaching one you can't even see.. Seems that I see things in mormonism that you are blind to. One of us sees mormonism for what it is and the other just over looks grave contradictions in it's doctrine.. Just because I don't believe the lies that are mormonism any longer doesn't mean I don't know that the lies exist. IHS jim

[James Banta]

Well--if it is not dead faith--then it is faith with works. Faith alone falls. End of story.

Don't you believe that God sees the heart while men see only what is visible before them (1 Samuel 16:7). Since I am one that believes God's word, I am confident that James was correct when He said show me your faith by doing these things and I will show you my faith as I also do them. Do works prove anything to God? NO! The only one that uses works to know about our faith are men.. Since men can't save us, it is though the faith in our hearts whereby the grace of God that brings salvation is manifest. Only God sees that. That which men see is just a image of that abiding faith that has opened the door of grace that has made us God's children. IHS jim

[James Banta]

I believe what I have told you is that faith precedes obedience to Christ--but faith is still dead faith without obedience to Jesus Christ. Even the devils believe. The faith alone make it out that one is somehow saved at the point of belief, and then obedience to Jesus Christ. The scriptures have it quite differently:


John 5:28-29---King James Version (KJV)


28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation.


That has all being judged according to works--AFTER DEATH--and that for life or ****ation.

I have shown that you, me, everyone that has ever lived, as all people living now are disobedient to God.. We have not obeyed the commandments of Jesus.. By your creed here no one can be saved. Disobedience among us is rampant. We have been told that no one is acceptable to God. Jesus even said it "there is none good but God" (Mark 10:18).. You are in sin as much as every man. Every man is guilty before God. That includes you, your Bishop, even the president of your church. Even the Christians here, in themselves, are guilty of all Sin before a Holy God.. Only by faith in Jesus can a person be seen in the righteousness of Jesus and thereby be acceptable to God.. IHS jim

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post---I believe what I have told you is that faith precedes obedience to Christ--but faith is still dead faith without obedience to Jesus Christ. Even the devils believe. The faith alone make it out that one is somehow saved at the point of belief, and then obedience to Jesus Christ. The scriptures have it quite differently:


John 5:28-29---King James Version (KJV)


28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation.


That has all being judged according to works--AFTER DEATH--and that for life or ****ation.


I have shown that you, me, everyone that has ever lived, as all people living now are disobedient to God..

Could you explain to us how your postulation somehow cancels, rubs out, deletes, or annuls what the scriptures bear witness to--that all will be judged according to works--after death--and that for life or ****ation?


1 Peter 4:16-17----King James Version (KJV)


16 Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf.

17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post---Well--if it is not dead faith--then it is faith with works. Faith alone falls. End of story.


Don't you believe that God sees the heart while men see only what is visible before them (1 Samuel 16:7). Since I am one that believes God's word, I am confident that James was correct when He said show me your faith by doing these things and I will show you my faith as I also do them. Do works prove anything to God? NO!

Works must prove something, as we are all going to be judged by our works:


Matthew 16:27----King James Version (KJV)


27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.



As Paul explained:


Galatians 5:19-21---King James Version (KJV)


19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.


If works do not mean anything to God--then why are those who do those works Paul lists above--refused the kingdom of God? That's a salvational condition.

[alanmolstad]

Works must prove something,....

I cant see into a person's heart, therefore the things I can see the person do are all i have to go on as to their "faith"

But works dont save us, because if works or a law saved people the cross was a moot point.

But rather Works tell us about the condition of the person's heart, and that is where salvation takes place.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rcf1J6AJB9M

the justification by works is for men to see...
The justification by faith is what God alone sees....

This is why salvation comes to they who believe....and that by faith we draw close to god.

good works are the natural result of faith....

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post----Works must prove something, as we are all going to be judged by our works:

Matthew 16:27----King James Version (KJV)


27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.



As Paul explained:


Galatians 5:19-21---King James Version (KJV)


19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.


If works do not mean anything to God--then why are those who do those works Paul lists above--refused the kingdom of God? That's a salvational condition.


I cant see into a person's heart, therefore the things I can see the person do are all i have to go on as to their "faith"

Not to worry--it isn't you that will pronounce the final judgment according to works--it is God Himself.


But works dont save us,

True--it's God's grace that saves us--and that grace goes to those who obey Him:


Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)


9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;



because if works or a law saved people the cross was a moot point.

Even this law?


Galatians 6:2---King James Version (KJV)


2 Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.


But rather Works tell us about the condition of the person's heart, and that is where salvation takes place.

And that is the way God sees it--the works a man is judged by reveals his faith in Christ. But how does that annul the fact that works are what one is judged by?


the justification by works is for men to see...

Men do not justify anyone--that is for God to do.


The justification by faith is what God alone sees....

But faith has works as it's integral component--one cannot separate the two--unless you believe that salvation can come through dead faith:


James 2:20---King James Version (KJV)

20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?



This is why salvation comes to they who believe....and that by faith we draw close to god.

good works are the natural result of faith....

I agree--and an integral component of living faith.

[Billyray]

But faith has works as it's integral component--one cannot separate the two--unless you believe that salvation can come through dead faith:

Sure you can because they are distinct from each other. Salvation takes place at the time a person place in Christ just as the thief on the cross did and he was saved. But it is true that those who have faith will naturally produce works--the thief because he was nailed to the cross didn't do any works because he didn't have the opportunity to do any works after having faith but the fact that he was saved despite having any works disproves your false teachings.

[James Banta]

Could you explain to us how your postulation somehow cancels, rubs out, deletes, or annuls what the scriptures bear witness to--that all will be judged according to works--after death--and that for life or ****ation?


1 Peter 4:16-17----King James Version (KJV)


16 Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf.

17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?


How is it that you neglect the commandments of God given to us By God Himself in Matthew 5:48. Tell me you keep that commandment and I will again bring up the feasts that you have ignored all your life. Instead a Christian has been made perfect before a Holy God imputed with the righteousness of Jesus.. See since He is perfect and He has imputed that righteousness on all who believe in Him a Christian is even keeping the Law we see written in Matthew 5:48.. Trying to keep the commandments of God by yourself only make a person self righteous, not righteous before a holy God.. So in Jesus, the Christian does Good and those that are self righteous have done evil. Haven't you heard there is no one Good but God. Therefore only His righteousness is real righteousness, all other righteousness is of man's invention and therefore self righteousness.

What is it to obey the Gospel other that to believe on the Lord Jesus and be saved? The Gospel teaches us that Jesus came into the world through and act of God's (The Holy Spirit) creative power. That He lived a sinless life, Offered Himself a sacrifice for sin, shedding His blood, then on the third day He was raised for our justification.. Only in faith in these work's Jesus preformed do we obey the gospel..

You keep digging your self a deeper and deeper hole thinking that somehow you can make yourself acceptable to God. The cost of salvation is much greater than any man can ever pay.. Only in the sacrifice of God in the person of Jesus is there any hope for you, for me, for man kind at all to meet the demands of God for our salvation. That is clearly visible in each p***age you quote that calls for our obedience. Compared to the righteousness of Gid we have NO RIGHTEOUSNESS at all. As the great prophet said "Woe is me for I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell is the city of the men of unclean lips." (Isaiah 6:5). He was a liar, we are all liars and unclean before God.. He has told us that NO UNCLEAN THING CAN ENTER THE KINGDOM OF GOD.. Without His redemptive work on our behalf all we deserve is death, and that is a work we can't do for ourselves.. IHS jim

[dberrie2000]

dberrie----But faith has works as it's integral component--one cannot separate the two--unless you believe that salvation can come through dead faith:


James 2:20---King James Version (KJV)

20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?


Sure you can because they are distinct from each other.

But that is only true in the man-made theology of faith that is alone for salvation. Again, the Biblical Christianity bears witness to this fact:

20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post---Could you explain to us how your postulation somehow cancels, rubs out, deletes, or annuls what the scriptures bear witness to--that all will be judged according to works--after death--and that for life or ****ation?


1 Peter 4:16-17----King James Version (KJV)


16 Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf.

17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?





How is it that you neglect the commandments of God given to us By God Himself in Matthew 5:48. Tell me you keep that commandment and I will again bring up the feasts that you have ignored all your life.

Could you explain for us how my obedience somehow cancels out what the scriptures teach as truth? James--the scriptures teach that obedience to Jesus Christ is necessary in receiving God's grace unto life--regardless of what my obedience is or is not.

[Billyray]

But that is only true in the man-made theology of faith that is alone for salvation. Again, the Biblical Christianity bears witness to this fact:

That is what the Bible teaches DB. The thief was converted on the cross and was saved, he had faith but no works and he was saved. The Bble in multiples places teaches that salvation takes place when we come to Christ by faith and that our works do not contribute for salvation. You simply refuse to accept what the Bble teaches.

[alanmolstad]

obedience to Jesus Christ is necessary in receiving God's grace unto life--....
where sin abounds what does the Bible say even more abounds?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post---But that is only true in the man-made theology of faith that is alone for salvation. Again, the Biblical Christianity bears witness to this fact:

James2:20--KJV

20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?


That is what the Bible teaches DB. The thief was converted on the cross and was saved, he had faith but no works and he was saved.

How does your belief about the thief somehow cancel out what the scriptures state--faith without works is dead? Do you believe we can be saved through dead faith?


The Bble in multiples places teaches that salvation takes place when we come to Christ by faith and that our works do not contribute for salvation. You simply refuse to accept what the Bble teaches.

How does your theology comport with what the scriptures teach?

Hebrews 5:9 (King James Version)


9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

[dberrie2000]

where sin abounds what does the Bible say even more abounds?

Grace. And that grace goes to those who obey God:

Hebrews 5:9 (King James Version)


9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

[Billyray]

How does your belief about the thief somehow cancel out what the scriptures state--faith without works is dead? Do you believe we can be saved through dead faith?

What I said does not cancel out anything so I wonder why you persist using this false ***ertion. Salvation comes to those who place their faith in Christ, which is exactly what the thief on the cross did andhe was saved despite not having any works. As I have told you multiple times now dead faith = no faith.

[dberrie2000]

What I said does not cancel out anything so I wonder why you persist using this false ***ertion. Salvation comes to those who place their faith in Christ, which is exactly what the thief on the cross did andhe was saved despite not having any works. As I have told you multiple times now dead faith = no faith.

That places you in a tight position. If the thief had no works--as you admit above--and dead faith = no faith--then you have the thief being saved with dead faith--which you claim is no faith at all.

The scriptures once again bind your theology:

James 2:20---King James Version (KJV)

20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

[Billyray]

That places you in a tight position. If the thief had no works--as you admit above--and dead faith = no faith--then you have the thief being saved with dead faith--which you claim is no faith at all.

It doesn't put me in a tight position at all because the thief had faith and those who place their faith in Christ will be saved and salvation is not based on works. This section of scripture only proves that you works based salvation is false.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Billyray View Post---What I said does not cancel out anything so I wonder why you persist using this false ***ertion. Salvation comes to those who place their faith in Christ, which is exactly what the thief on the cross did andhe was saved despite not having any works. As I have told you multiple times now dead faith = no faith.


Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post---That places you in a tight position. If the thief had no works--as you admit above--and dead faith = no faith--then you have the thief being saved with dead faith--which you claim is no faith at all.


It doesn't put me in a tight position at all because the thief had faith

How could the thief have had faith when you just stated that--dead faith = no faith.---and then you confirming the thief---was saved despite not having any works..

That is not a tight spot--it is altogether crossways and transverse to logic.


James 2:20---King James Version (KJV)

20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?


Billyray--you are toast to your own arguments.

[Billyray]

How could the thief have had faith when you just stated that--dead faith = no faith.---and then you confirming the thief---was saved despite not having any works..

We know that he had faith because we know that he went to paradise to be with Christ which proves that your teachings are false that works contribute for salvation. Bottom line we are saved when we place our faith in Christ to save us, our works do not contribute for salvation. Dead faith = no faith.

[Billyray]

Billyray--you are toast to your own arguments.
DB the one who is toast is you--but unfortunately you will not find that out until after you die.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Billyray View Post---What I said does not cancel out anything so I wonder why you persist using this false ***ertion. Salvation comes to those who place their faith in Christ, which is exactly what the thief on the cross did and he was saved despite not having any works. As I have told you multiple times now dead faith = no faith.

[/quote]Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post---That places you in a tight position. If the thief had no works--as you admit above--and dead faith = no faith--then you have the thief being saved with dead faith--which you claim is no faith at all.[/quote]


Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post---It doesn't put me in a tight position at all because the thief had faith...


dberrie---How could the thief have had faith when you just stated that--dead faith = no faith.---and then you confirming the thief---was saved despite not having any works..

That is not a tight spot--it is altogether crossways and transverse to logic.


[quote]James 2:20---King James Version (KJV)
[/B]
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?


Billyray--you are toast to your own arguments.


DB the one who is toast is you--but unfortunately you will not find that out until after you die.

How does your judgment change what the Biblical record testifies to?

James 2:20---King James Version (KJV)

20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?


How could the thief had had faith when you state---"saved despite not having any works. As I have told you multiple times now dead faith = no faith."

[Billyray]

How could the thief had had faith when you state---"saved despite not having any works. As I have told you multiple times now dead faith = no faith."
Simple. He trusted in Christ to save him.

[James Banta]

Could you explain for us how my obedience somehow cancels out what the scriptures teach as truth? James--the scriptures teach that obedience to Jesus Christ is necessary in receiving God's grace unto life--regardless of what my obedience is or is not.

You like ever human, other than Jesus, that ever walked the earth is a sinner and therefore NOT obedient.. According to the Apostle James if you have sinned, which you have (Romans 3:23), you are guilty of the whole Law (James 2:10).. You therefore have no more obedience than I do, which is NONE.. The only obedience I claim is that which is imputed on me as a believer through faith in Jesus.. Other than that full obedience what more can you add by the Pharisaical requirements of keeping Laws and traditions made by me. Yes the LDS have laws beyond the requirements given to us by God in His word the Bible. mormonism requires marriage, the Bible does not. Mormonism commands that not alcohol, or tobacco be used, that hot drinks not be taken. What does the Lord teach? That it isn't what goes into the body that defiles us but that which comes out.. Mormonism has added the commandments of men and ascribed them to God. Like the priests of the Inquisition, mormonism teaches their man made LAWS saying "GOD WILLS IT".. Keeping these "Laws" is not obedience but instead is religiosity.

The Bible teaches so clearly that anyone can see and understand that it is "By GRACE we are save though FAITH and that not of ourselves, it is a GIFT from God, NOT BY WORKS, so that no one can boast". SEE it's not what you do, not what you obey. It is by His grace (Unmerited favor) through trusting Him.. Again obedience (RIGHTEOUSNESS) is imputed to us (Given by an act of God's power). It is not something we can bring into our own minds, hearts, and hands.

It is mormonism that denies the power of God in His power to make us righteous before Him no matter the level of our obedience.. Your statement make no sense. That we are saves by grace through obedience regardless of our obedience.. Come on man, pull it together.. Are you saying we are all saved by grace regardless of our obedience or are you saying that obedience is required to gain an inheritance into the very best place God ever created, His own throne that is above all things.. IHS jim

[James Banta]

Grace. And that grace goes to those who obey God:

Hebrews 5:9 (King James Version)


9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

If this means our personal obedience then we have all failed.. But if it is as the Gospel teaches that all who believe should not perish but have everlasting life, then we gain full obedience through the imputed righteousness of Jesus. Then you can say we are saved in the obedience of the righteous Lord.. I sure don't want anything to do with the self righteousness you seem to be calling for.. IHS jim

[James Banta]

Works must prove something, as we are all going to be judged by our works:


Matthew 16:27----King James Version (KJV)


27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.



As Paul explained:


Galatians 5:19-21---King James Version (KJV)


19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.


If works do not mean anything to God--then why are those who do those works Paul lists above--refused the kingdom of God? That's a salvational condition.

You can't see what is written right before your eyes can you.. The works of the flesh are listed right there.. The flesh does it's own works, the spirit something totally different.. The works of the Spirit all come through Faith. NOT by what we do but by what Jesus did for us.. The only condition on salvation is to trust in what He is, and what He has done.

I will agree that God will reward good Works but those without such are still saved as a man escaping fire (1 Cor 3:14-15), that a believer has which is not of God is lost though he himself is saved.. Why do you ignore this? I accept the judgement of God of sin. I just separate that sin in the flesh of a believer from His saved heart as this p***age and others where Paul tells us of His sin being separate from him (Romans 7:17)..

You are struggling using the Bible to support your doctrine works salvation because the Bible just doesn't teach it.. You are at war with God in that are rejecting the truth of being imputed with His righteousness and that our salvation comes by His grace through faith and NOT OF WORKS.. No baptism, no laying on of hands, no temple works, no marriage, no enduring to the end in your own righteousness can accomplish, through the works, what He has completed for us.. ALL HE REQUIRES TO RECEIVE THEM IS TO TRUST HIM AND BY SAYING YOU MUST DO THIS, OT THAT YOU DEMONSTRATE THAT YOU DO NOT TRUST HIM TO MEET THE REQUIREMENTS OF GOD'S LAW ON YOUR BEHALF.. IHS jim

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post---Works must prove something, as we are all going to be judged by our works:


Matthew 16:27----King James Version (KJV)


27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.



As Paul explained:


Galatians 5:19-21---King James Version (KJV)


19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.


If works do not mean anything to God--then why are those who do those works Paul lists above--refused the kingdom of God? That's a salvational condition.


You can't see what is written right before your eyes can you.. The works of the flesh are listed right there.. The flesh does it's own works, the spirit something totally different.. The works of the Spirit all come through Faith. NOT by what we do but by what Jesus did for us..

Just a note here, James. As to mortality--Paul was referring to the spirit not inheriting the kingdom of God--not the mortal flesh.

[James Banta]

Just a note here, James. As to mortality--Paul was referring to the spirit not inheriting the kingdom of God--not the mortal flesh.

So explain how some spirits are guilty of sin before God and others are clean when the BIBLE in both the OT and the NT teach us that we are all sinners before a Holy God? That doing good as is seen in the words of Jesus in Matthew 7:11 qualifies us as doing inequity. And that believing in Him qualifies us for everlasting life (John 3:16). Since we all commit all the sins listed in Galatians 5:19-21 and that according to James 2:10, you are saying that no one can be saved.. I say you are teaching the state of all sinners without showing the great Joy and Peace that come though the forgiveness of God made possible by the sacrifice of Jesus. And that because of His grace through faith in HIM.. I seem to be believing is all of the Bible when you refuse to accept the fullness of God's message right there in front of you.. IHS jim

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post---Works must prove something, as we are all going to be judged by our works:


Matthew 16:27----King James Version (KJV)


27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.



As Paul explained:


Galatians 5:19-21---King James Version (KJV)


19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.


If works do not mean anything to God--then why are those who do those works Paul lists above--refused the kingdom of God? That's a salvational condition.


Quote Originally Posted by James Banta View Post----You can't see what is written right before your eyes can you.. The works of the flesh are listed right there.. The flesh does it's own works, the spirit something totally different.. The works of the Spirit all come through Faith.


Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post---Just a note here, James. As to mortality--Paul was referring to the spirit not inheriting the kingdom of God--not the mortal flesh.


So explain how some spirits are guilty of sin before God and others are clean

Because some repent and are baptized--and follow Christ--and some remain in the works Paul listed above--refusing to repent and come unto Christ.

Could you explain your theology that those works, as Paul listed them, will not keep the audience Paul was addressing out of the kingdom of God? That is your belief--right? That Christians can commit those sins Paul lists above the rest of their lives--yet--they are still saved?

[Billyray]

Because some repent and are baptized--and follow Christ--and some remain in the works Paul listed above--refusing to repent and come unto Christ.

Could you explain your theology that those works, as Paul listed them, will not keep the audience Paul was addressing out of the kingdom of God? That is your belief--right? That Christians can commit those sins Paul lists above the rest of their lives--yet--they are still saved?
One area that Christians differ from Mormons is that Christians realize that they are sinners and need a Savior to save them from the sins. Mormons such as yourself believe that--in addition to your faith--you do good works and that by doing good works this leads to personal worthiness and eventually exaltation. Christians see God as saving sinners, you see God rewarding salvation to those who earn it. We are just on polar opposites on this issue.

[dberrie2000]

One area that Christians differ from Mormons is that Christians realize that they are sinners and need a Savior to save them from the sins.

And how does that negate what Paul affirms?

Galatians 5:19-21---King James Version (KJV)


19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.



Again--how can one claim to be saved--live a life full of the above mentioned sins--and still enter into life? As Paul stated:

......Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.


So--are you agreeing with James--and believe that a Christian can commit those sins until the day they die--without repentance--and they are still saved?

[Billyray]

And how does that negate what Paul affirms?



Paul would be the first one to admit that we are saved when we come to Christ by faith and that our works do not contribute for salvation.

[Billyray]

So--are you agreeing with James--and believe that a Christian can commit those sins until the day they die--without repentance--and they are still saved?
You are a sinner and yet you expect to be exalted, why the double standard?

[dberrie2000]

dberrie----And how does that negate what Paul affirms?

Galatians 5:19-21---King James Version (KJV)


19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.



Again--how can one claim to be saved--live a life full of the above mentioned sins--and still enter into life? As Paul stated:

......Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.


So--are you agreeing with James--and believe that a Christian can commit those sins until the day they die--without repentance--and they are still saved?


Paul would be the first one to admit that we are saved when we come to Christ by faith and that our works do not contribute for salvation.

So--you are agreeing with James Banta--one could commit adultery, fornication, murders, etc--until the day they die--and as long as they are saved--they still inherit eternal life?

[Billyray]

So--you are agreeing with James Banta--one could commit adultery, fornication, murders, etc--until the day they die--and as long as they are saved--they still inherit eternal life?
Every single person sins both saved and unsaved. The basis for salvation is faith in Christ. Those who are truly saved are given God's spirit which lives inside them and their lives become more and more Christlike over time. This is evidence that they are saved, not what you believe that they work to be saved.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post---So--you are agreeing with James Banta--one could commit adultery, fornication, murders, etc--until the day they die--and as long as they are saved--they still inherit eternal life?


Every single person sins both saved and unsaved. The basis for salvation is faith in Christ. Those who are truly saved are given God's spirit which lives inside them and their lives become more and more Christlike over time. This is evidence that they are saved, not what you believe that they work to be saved.

So--you supplant Paul's theology with your own?


Galatians 5:19-21---King James Version (KJV)


19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

[Billyray]

So--you supplant Paul's theology with your own?


What I have said Is Paul's theology and it is the theology of the NT. "Those who are truly saved are given God's spirit which lives inside them and their lives become more and more Christlike over time. This is evidence that they are saved, not what you believe that they work to be saved."

[dberrie2000]

dberrie----So--you supplant Paul's theology with your own?


Galatians 5:19-21---King James Version (KJV)


19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.


What I have said Is Paul's theology and it is the theology of the NT. "Those who are truly saved are given God's spirit which lives inside them and their lives become more and more Christlike over time. This is evidence that they are saved, not what you believe that they work to be saved."

Billyray--do you agree with James Banta--that one could do all the above things Paul lists--- to the day they die--without any further repentance--and still be saved?

[Billyray]

Billyray--do you agree with James Banta--that one could do all the above things Paul lists--- to the day they die--without any further repentance--and still be saved?
Ephesians 2
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Philippians 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post-----Billyray--do you agree with James Banta--that one could do all the above things Paul lists--- to the day they die--without any further repentance--and still be saved?

Galatians 5:19-21---King James Version (KJV)


19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.



Ephesians 2
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Philippians 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

How are you relating those scriptures to the question I asked? Do you agree with James Banta--that Christians could commit any of those above sins Paul lists above until the day they die--without repentance---and are still saved?

[Billyray]

How are you relating those scriptures to the question I asked? Do you agree with James Banta--that Christians could commit any of those above sins Paul lists above until the day they die--without repentance---and are still saved?
Ephesians 2
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Philippians 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

[Billyray]

Galatians 5:19-21---King James Version (KJV)


19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Galatians 3
1 You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified.
2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard?
3 Are you so foolish? After beginning by means of the Spirit, are you now trying to finish by means of the flesh?
4 Have you experienced so much in vain—if it really was in vain?
5 So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard?
6 So also Abraham “believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post----Galatians 5:19-21---King James Version (KJV)


19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.


[QUOTE=Billyray;144958]Galatians 3
1 You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified.
2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard?
3 Are you so foolish? After beginning by means of the Spirit, are you now trying to finish by means of the flesh?
4 Have you experienced so much in vain—if it really was in vain?
5 So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard?
6 So also Abraham “believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”

"Works of the law" is a reference to the Mosaic Law. How are you referencing that to Paul's testimony that those who do such things as Paul listed above ----do not inherit the kingdom of God?

[Billyray]

"Works of the law" is a reference to the Mosaic Law.
Romans 2:13*(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the [Mosaic] law shall be justified.

[James Banta]

And how does that negate what Paul affirms?

Galatians 5:19-21---King James Version (KJV)


19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.



Again--how can one claim to be saved--live a life full of the above mentioned sins--and still enter into life? As Paul stated:

......Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.


So--are you agreeing with James--and believe that a Christian can commit those sins until the day they die--without repentance--and they are still saved?


We are all guilty of all those terrible sins.. But you don't like anything in James chapter 2 other than Faith without works, do you.. But real Bible believers know that if we offend God in one point we are guilty of all.. So the only way to not be included as one that does the terrible sins listed in Galatians 5 is to keep all the Law like the commandment given in Matthew 5:48. Since not one of us have kept that commandment we are guilty of sin before a Holy God. Being guilty we deserve His wrath. But if we have been imputed with the righteousness of Jesus we are clean before Him and have eternal life.. All your demands for righteousness, and obedience are met in the righteous life of the Lord Jesus.. You want to work and establish your own righteousness you are in serious trouble.. You have already failed.. Every time you tell me that you must obey I will bring up Matthew 5:48 that proves you are NOT obedient, that you ARE in sin.. IHS jim

[James Banta]

How are you relating those scriptures to the question I asked? Do you agree with James Banta--that Christians could commit any of those above sins Paul lists above until the day they die--without repentance---and are still saved?

Wait a minuet there the p***age says nothing about being able to be forgiven of those sins.. It says those that commit them will not inherit the Kingdom of God.. You are adding to the scripture.. If you get to isolate this p***age from all the comments Paul has made that salvation comes to us by the grace of God through faith and NOT BY WORKS then you have to deal with the issue that all that commit these sins are forever lost and the grace of God is not available to them.. We all know that the fullness of God's whole will for us is spelled out in Galatians 5:19-21.. You are teaching total nonsense ripping a p***age out of context without any understanding. IHS jim

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post---Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
And how does that negate what Paul affirms?

Galatians 5:19-21---King James Version (KJV)


19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.



Again--how can one claim to be saved--live a life full of the above mentioned sins--and still enter into life? As Paul stated:

......Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.


So--are you agreeing with James--and believe that a Christian can commit those sins until the day they die--without repentance--and they are still saved?


Wait a minuet there the p***age says nothing about being able to be forgiven of those sins.. It says those that commit them will not inherit the Kingdom of God..

But my statement was---"and believe that a Christian can commit those sins until the day they die--without repentance--and they are still saved?"

James--there is nothing in the Biblical record that states man can sin the above sins and be forgiven without repentance. Your belief is that Christians can commit those sins without repentance until the day they die--and still be saved--right?


You are adding to the scripture.. If you get to isolate this p***age from all the comments Paul has made that salvation comes to us by the grace of God through faith and NOT BY WORKS then you have to deal with the issue that all that commit these sins are forever lost and the grace of God is not available to them..

Those who commit those sins and never repent are lost--God's grace will not be with them. There is nothing in the scriptures that states Christians can sin whatever sins they will, including those Paul lists above--and never repent--and still be saved. That is your theology--not the Biblical theology.

[Billyray]

But my statement was---"and believe that a Christian can commit those sins until the day they die--without repentance--and they are still saved?"

1 John 3
9No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God.

[dberrie2000]

1 John 3
9No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God.

Well--where does that leave the theology that a Christian can continue to commit those sins Paul list in Galatians5--without repentance--and still be saved?


Galatians 5:19-21---King James Version (KJV)


19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

[James Banta]

But my statement was---"and believe that a Christian can commit those sins until the day they die--without repentance--and they are still saved?"

James--there is nothing in the Biblical record that states man can sin the above sins and be forgiven without repentance. Your belief is that Christians can commit those sins without repentance until the day they die--and still be saved--right?



Those who commit those sins and never repent are lost--God's grace will not be with them. There is nothing in the scriptures that states Christians can sin whatever sins they will, including those Paul lists above--and never repent--and still be saved. That is your theology--not the Biblical theology.

YOU STILL HAVEN'T SHOWN ME WHERE REPENTANCE IS MENTIONED IN THE P***AGE.. It is FACT that you added it without authority.. As far as repentance goes there is no such thing as an unrepentant Christian.. We have all repented (Turned away from the world and to the Lord Jesus. The fact that we still walk in these bodies of death (Romans 7:24) and that sin lives in that body (Romans 7:17) so sin is still committed but not by the Christian but only the flesh.. The Christian has received the righteousness of Jesus by imputation (Romans 4:22-24) not by living the Law..

You seem to not understand the doctrine clearly explained in the Bible you are much to busy believing the lies of Joseph Smith.. You still disbelieve the word in teaches us that the Father has given to Jesus all those that He has chosen to be saved.

John 6:37-40
All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

That is a p***age clearly stating irresistible grace but you have told me that you deny this doctrine.. You add your own words to the scripture in inserting repentance into the Galatians 5 p***age. You deny that the child of God is imputed with the righteousness of Jesus demanding that we must keep all the commandments of God to receive salvation.. In these beliefs you fail to believe God and in that faithlessness you fall short of His glory and are unworthy as you are now to enter His Kingdom being unwilling to abandon your self righteousness and cling instead to the righteousness of the Lord Jesus.. it is you that hold an unbiblical theology.. IHS jim

[Billyray]

Well--where does that leave the theology that a Christian can continue to commit those sins Paul list in Galatians5--without repentance--and still be saved?

1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

[Billyray]

Well--where does that leave the theology that a Christian can continue to commit those sins Paul list in Galatians5--without repentance--and still be saved?

1 John 3
Message--(Paraphrase-not a translation of the Bible)
9-10*People conceived and brought into life by God don’t make a practice of sin. How could they? God’s seed is deep within them, making them who they are. It’s not in the nature of the God-begotten to practice and parade sin. Here’s how you tell the difference between God’s children and the Devil’s children: The one who won’t practice righteous ways isn’t from God, nor is the one who won’t love brother or sister. A simple test.

[James Banta]

Oh... I see.... So you believe that a person can refuse to obey God, and still be saved??? good to know.

I believe that in ourselves not one of us is obedient to God.. NOT ONE! Those of us that love Him want more than anything to live for Him but as I have proven through the scripture NOT ONE OF US DOES.. Paul made it clear that as born again children of God we don't sin.. That it is sin that lives in us, in our flesh, that sins.. It is therefore not I that sins but sin that lives in me (Romans7:17)..

I have heard LDS tell me again and again "Oh you can say you believe and then sin all you want". the answer is "no, we actually sin much more than we want. We want to be sinless and live for him in all things. What we end up doing is not what we want". This is funny you accuse those of us that have been LDS of telling you what you believe when having been there we know very well what is taught as the "gospel" but for you to tell us what we believe is ridiculous. We believe we are saved by the GRACE of God through faith in Jesus and NOT BY WORKS, so that no one can boast. If we sin it is not us but sin that lives in us (Romans 7:17). WE ARE PURE STANDING IN THE IMPUTED RIGHTEOUSNESS OF THE LORD JESUS (Romans 4:22-24). That is Biblical truth.. IHS jim

[Billyray]

Oh... I see.... So you believe that a person can refuse to obey God, and still be saved??? good to know.
Straw man argument. Is this the best you can do trying to criticize Biblical Christianity?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by theway View Post---Oh... I see.... So you believe that a person can refuse to obey God, and still be saved??? good to know.

Straw man argument. Is this the best you can do trying to criticize Biblical Christianity?

Where do we find those who refuse to obey God inheriting eternal life in the Biblical text?

[Billyray]

Where do we find those who refuse to obey God inheriting eternal life in the Biblical text?

1 John 3
Message--(Paraphrase-not a translation of the Bible)
9-10*People conceived and brought into life by God don’t make a practice of sin. How could they? God’s seed is deep within them, making them who they are. It’s not in the nature of the God-begotten to practice and parade sin. Here’s how you tell the difference between God’s children and the Devil’s children: The one who won’t practice righteous ways isn’t from God, nor is the one who won’t love brother or sister. A simple test.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post----Where do we find those who refuse to obey God inheriting eternal life in the Biblical text?


1 John 3
Message--(Paraphrase-not a translation of the Bible)
9-10*People conceived and brought into life by God don’t make a practice of sin. How could they? God’s seed is deep within them, making them who they are. It’s not in the nature of the God-begotten to practice and parade sin. Here’s how you tell the difference between God’s children and the Devil’s children: The one who won’t practice righteous ways isn’t from God, nor is the one who won’t love brother or sister. A simple test.

And how does your paraphrase confirm that God extends His grace unto life to those who refuse to obey Him?


Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)


9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;



Where do you find in the scriptures that God extends His grace unto life to the disobedient?


2 Thessalonians 1:8-9---King James Version (KJV)


8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;



1 Peter 4:17-18---King James Version (KJV)


17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

[Billyray]

And how does your paraphrase confirm that God extends His grace unto life to those who refuse to obey Him?

Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.

1John 3:7. No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post----And how does your paraphrase confirm that God extends His grace unto life to those who refuse to obey Him?


Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)


9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;



Where do you find in the scriptures that God extends His grace unto life to the disobedient?


2 Thessalonians 1:8-9---King James Version (KJV)


8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;



1 Peter 4:17-18---King James Version (KJV)


17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?


Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.

Paul did not believe that grace was attainable under the Mosaic Law(works). But Paul did differentiate between works(Mosaic Law) and obedience to the gospel of Jesus Christ:


Romans 2:5-11---King James Version (KJV)


5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

11 For there is no respect of persons with God.


Could you explain for us how Paul connected obedience to eternal life--and then taught that obedience had nothing to do with salvation?

Your theology will not fit the scriptures. Either obedience to Christ is connected to Christ-- patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
--or it is not.

When Paul refers to "works"--that is a reference to the Mosaic Law, for the main. He distinguishes the Mosaic Law from the gospel using that term. You are using "works" to denote acts of obedience to Jesus Christ. Two separate usages.

[Billyray]

When Paul refers to "works"--that is a reference to the Mosaic Law, for the main. He distinguishes the Mosaic Law from the gospel using that term. You are using "works" to denote acts of obedience to Jesus Christ. Two separate usages.
Romans 2
14*For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15*Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)


Matthew 22

36*Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37*Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38*This is the first and great commandment.
39*And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40*On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

[theway]

Straw man argument. Is this the best you can do trying to criticize Biblical Christianity?
Hey... I can only work with what you give me.
So when some wannabe Calvinist type tells me obedience to God is not required for salvation, then I going to take him at his word that that's what he believes.

[theway]

I believe that in ourselves not one of us is obedient to God.. NOT ONE!
Speak for yourself James. Do you really believe that you can plase God by telling Him that even after He saved you that you are giving up trying to obey Him and you plan on remaining a hopeless reprobate sinner the rest of your life. That is your freedom to do and think so... Just don't expect to recieve any blessings or salvation based on that at***ude.

Those of us that love Him want more than anything to live for Him but as I have proven through the scripture NOT ONE OF US DOES.. No James... The scriptures are clear on this, those of us who Love Him, obey Him; those who do not love God do not obey Him and are counted with the sinners.


I have heard LDS tell me again and again "Oh you can say you believe and then sin all you want". the answer is "no, we actually sin much more than we want. We want to be sinless and live for him in all things. What we end up doing is not what we want".HUH?????..... What craziness.....
There was a man who went to his Doctor. The Doctor asked what was wrong with him, and the man told him that nothing was wrong except for the fact that it hurt when he put his hand above his head.
"Then don't put your hand above your head!" consulted the Doctor.
The joke my trivialize things, but it really is that simple.
If you don't want to sin James, then don't sin. Choose today who you plan on serving.




This is funny you accuse those of us that have been LDS of telling you what you believe when having been there we know very well what is taught as the "gospel" but for you to tell us what we believe is ridiculous. We believe we are saved by the GRACE of God through faith in Jesus and NOT BY WORKS, so that no one can boast. If we sin it is not us but sin that lives in us (Romans 7:17). WE ARE PURE STANDING IN THE IMPUTED RIGHTEOUSNESS OF THE LORD JESUS (Romans 4:22-24). That is Biblical truth.. IHS jimAnd thus Satan lulls people to sleep saying... Eat, drink, and be merry, for tomorrow you are saved.

[Billyray]

Hey... I can only work with what you give me.

. . .So you believe that a person can refuse to obey God, and still be saved???
What Christian on either this board or CARM teaches that we should refuse to obey God?

[Billyray]

So when some wannabe Calvinist type tells me obedience to God is not required for salvation, then I going to take him at his word that that's what he believes.

. . .So you believe that a person can refuse to obey God, and still be saved???
After all of this time you still don't understand what the Bible teaches? Or are you simply purposefully misrepresenting what we believe (straw man) which of course would be dishonest.

[theway]

What Christian on either this board or CARM teaches that we should refuse to obey God?I really love it Billyray how you develop your merry-go-round rides.

You always take two completely unrelated statements and try to argue them at the same time. However when someone calls on one of your statements, you quickly jump over to the other one and pretend that that is really what the argument was all about all along. It quit comical to watch your little dance.

Notice how you went from saying that works or obedience is not a requirement of salvation;

to

Saying that No one "..teaches that we should refuse to obey God."

Two completely different arguments with two completely different answers... and completely unrelated.
So here's how it will go... I will say that I didn't say that anybody said that they should refuse to obey God; then you will jump back to the first statement and pretend they say the same thing.... and around and around she goes.......

[Billyray]

I really love it Billyray how you develop your merry-go-round rides.

And I really love it how you set up a straw man argument. You know what we believe and you purposely misrepresent it which is dishonest.


You always take two completely unrelated statements and try to argue them at the same time.

Those so called "unrelated statements" were made by you in case you forgot.


However when someone calls on one of your statements, you quickly jump over to the other one and pretend that that is really what the argument was all about all along. It quit comical to watch your little dance.

You are the one who made the false accusation. Remember?


Two completely different arguments with two completely different answers... and completely unrelated.

I called you out on your first statement so then you thought that you would rephrase it to get out of the little pickle you were in.

BTW I notice that you didn't try to defend you false accusation. Why is that?

[Billyray]

So when some wannabe Calvinist type tells me obedience to God is not required for salvation, then I going to take him at his word that that's what he believes.
It is not only Calvinist's who believe that salvation is based on faith and not works but Arminians as well. But you should already know this. And you are also forgetting that this is what the Bible teaches as well NOT the works based salvation that you believe in. Also don't forget that Christians believe that we should keep all of the commandments and do good works but you seemed to forget this little detail.

[Billyray]

Oh... I see.... So you believe that a person can refuse to obey God, and still be saved??? good to know.

Straw man argument. Is this the best you can do trying to criticize Biblical Christianity?

Hey... I can only work with what you give me.
So when some wannabe Calvinist type tells me obedience to God is not required for salvation, then I going to take him at his word that that's what he believes.
Here is the running dialogue in case you forgot, and others can also see how you tried to weasel out of your first statement which is obviously false.

[theway]

Here is the running dialogue in case you forgot, and others can also see how you tried to weasel out of your first statement which is obviously false.
That's a lousy example of a "running dialog" but a perfect example of how Critics only see what they want to see. You left out everything that would have remotely made the dialog to make any sense.
Here is a better "running dialog".

Originally Posted by James Banta
What refutes obedience as the way to salvation is the fact that NO ONE is obedient.

Originally Posted by theway
Oh... I see.... So you believe that a person can refuse to obey God, and still be saved??? good to know.
Now if you notice, my reply was directly related to James' statement. I did not make a random statement out of thin air, nor did I create a argument and then argue against it,(which is what a strawmen argument really means).

Now here was your reply...

Originally Posted by Billyray
Straw man argument. Is this the best you can do trying to criticize Biblical Christianity?Notice here that you were not even part of the dialog, the only reply I was interested in was James'.... never yours.
Notice also that you never said my statement was wrong, just that you thought it didn't go far enough in pointing out the errors of Modern Christianity.



Originally Posted by theway
Hey... I can only work with what you give me.
So when some wannabe Calvinist type tells me obedience to God is not required for salvation, then I going to take him at his word that that's what he believes.
Now notice how I acknowledge the fact that I would love to point out all the heresies of Modern Christianity, but that I will simply limit it to the one heresy which was stated.

That is why your reply here makes absolutely no sense???

Originally Posted by Billyray
What Christian on either this board or CARM teaches that we should refuse to obey God?
If you really want to know what a strawmen argument is then you need look no further than the statement above. You will see that no one made the above statement other than you and then you proceed to try and knock it down. This is the cl***ic example of a strawmen argument, only it was made by YOU.
Now you can get the dialog back on course by proving your case, or by agreeing with mine, simply by answering the question before you.

Can a man refuse to obey God and still be saved?
(notice I asked "can" not "should")

[Billyray]

That's a lousy example of a "running dialog" but a perfect example of how Critics only see what they want to see. You left out everything that would have remotely made the dialog to make any sense.

It makes perfect sense, you said something false and I called you on it, then you tried to weasel out of your prior statement by changing it. Here it is again and anyone can look back and see for themself.



Oh... I see.... So you believe that a person can refuse to obey God, and still be saved??? good to know.

Straw man argument. Is this the best you can do trying to criticize Biblical Christianity?

Hey... I can only work with what you give me.
So when some wannabe Calvinist type tells me obedience to God is not required for salvation, then I going to take him at his word that that's what he believes.

[theway]

It makes perfect sense, you said something false and I called you on it, then you tried to weasel out of your prior statement by changing it. Here it is again and anyone can look back and see for themself.What exactly did I say that was false????

[Billyray]

Notice here that you were not even part of the dialog, the only reply I was interested in was James'.... never yours.

You do realize that this is a discussion board don't you?

A public discussion forum is not the place for a private one on one discussion with a single individual.

[Billyray]

What exactly did I say that was false????
I have already pointed that out to you. But here it is again.

Oh... I see.... So you believe that a person can refuse to obey God, and still be saved??? good to know.
Christians don't believe we can refuse to obey God. Why do you purposely lie about what we believe?

[theway]

You do realize that this is a discussion board don't you?
A public discussion forum is not the place for a private one on one discussion with a single individual.Once again... What did I say that was false to James.

LOL... With the number of posters here having dwindled down to just a few, it has in fact come down to just a one on one discussion. Only in your case you seem to be just arguing with yourself.

[theway]

I have already pointed that out to you. But here it is again.

Christians don't believe we can refuse to obey God. Why do you purposely lie about what we believe?There you go again making a brand new statement and then try to argue with the statement you created, instead of the question I asked you, in an attempt to avoid my question.

Here it is again with the part you left off bolded for you.


Can a man refuse to obey God and still be saved?

[Billyray]

Notice also that you never said my statement was wrong. . .
Sure I did. Here it is again.

What Christian on either this board or CARM teaches that we should refuse to obey God?
Christians don't believe that they can "refuse to obey God". That is why I asked you what I did above to give you the opportunity to provide a single example from any Christian poster on either this board or on CARM. Your lack of a single poster shouts that what you have said is false. Look at post #130. Christians believe that those who are born again have God's spirit within them and that they are changed and because they are changed they follow God which is evidence that they are truly saved.

1 John 3
Message--(Paraphrase-not a translation of the Bible)
9-10*People conceived and brought into life by God don’t make a practice of sin. How could they? God’s seed is deep within them, making them who they are. It’s not in the nature of the God-begotten to practice and parade sin. Here’s how you tell the difference between God’s children and the Devil’s children: The one who won’t practice righteous ways isn’t from God, nor is the one who won’t love brother or sister. A simple test.

[Billyray]

Can a man refuse to obey God and still be saved?

A person who IS saved can't go on sinning because he is born again/saved.


1 John 3:9*No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God

[theway]

Sure I did. Here it is again.LOL.... there you go, you tried to weasel out exactly as I said you would. When I asked this simple question in an attempt to get you to support or clarify your's and James' position.


Can a man refuse to obey God and still be saved?

You all of the sudden pretend that the following statement by you is what we were really talking about.



Christians don't believe that they can "refuse to obey God".

Then when I said that nobody ever asked the question you answered, you jump right back to you first statement and once again refuse to back it up by answering my question.

[theway]

A person who IS saved can't go on sinning because he is born again/saved.
But that makes no sense when compared with your earlier statement that ALL have sinned and continue to sin even after being saved???

[Billyray]

LOL.... there you go, you tried to weasel out exactly as I said you would. When I asked this simple question in an attempt to get you to support or clarify your's and James' position.

Can a man refuse to obey God and still be saved?

Did you even bother reading posts #154 or #155?


A person who IS saved can't go on sinning because he is born again/saved.

1 John 3:9*No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God

[Billyray]

But that makes no sense when compared with your earlier statement that ALL have sinned and continue to sin even after being saved???
It makes perfect sense, you just refuse to listen to what God has said. We are all sinners, both believers and unbelievers. But those who are born again don't make a practice of sinning BECAUSE they are born again. They become more and more Christlike over time by obeying God. This is evidence that they are saved. Someone who willfully disobeys God IS NOT SAVED.

[Billyray]

Christian
1. Believe we must have faith in Christ
2. Believe in obeying the commandments and doing good works.

Mormonism
1. Believe they must have faith in Christ
2. Believe in obeying the commandments and doing good works.

So what is the difference between the Christian verses Mormon perspective?

Christian
Salvation (which is by faith)----->Results in----->Obedience to the commandments

Mormonism
Obedience to the commandments----->Results in----->Salvation

[theway]

It makes perfect sense, you just refuse to listen to what God has said.
Whoa... Now you are trying to blame God for YOUR contradictions? The false or contradictory statements are all yours Billy.
You said that a saved person "can not refuse to obey God"; but now you are saying that saved people do indeed refuse to obey God by sinning? You can not have it both ways Billyray.


We are all sinners, both believers and unbelievers.Speak for yourself, I am a Saint, not a sinner

But those who are born again don't make a practice of sinning BECAUSE they are born again. They become more and more Christlike over time by obeying God.Here is another one of your duplicitous statements you always make. If you call yourself a sinner, then that means you are willfully disobeying God. The amount of times you willfully disobey God does not matter. Therefore, if you are willfully disobeying God, and you believe you are still saved then my first statement was correct.
In your theology, "you can disobey God and still be saved"

This is evidence that they are saved. Someone who willfully disobeys God IS NOT SAVED.Isn't "willful disobedience of God", the very definition of sin?

[Billyray]

Speak for yourself, I am a Saint, not a sinner

And I know you are not speaking the truth.

1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

[Billyray]

Here is another one of your duplicitous statements you always make. If you call yourself a sinner, then that means you are willfully disobeying God. The amount of times you willfully disobey God does not matter. Therefore, if you are willfully disobeying God, and you believe you are still saved then my first statement was correct.


1 John 3
Message--(Paraphrase-not a translation of the Bible)
9-10*People conceived and brought into life by God don’t make a practice of sin. How could they? God’s seed is deep within them, making them who they are. It’s not in the nature of the God-begotten to practice and parade sin. Here’s how you tell the difference between God’s children and the Devil’s children: The one who won’t practice righteous ways isn’t from God, nor is the one who won’t love brother or sister. A simple test.

[Billyray]

If you call yourself a sinner, then that means you are willfully disobeying God.
I point out another misperception--from your statement above-- that you and other Mormons have which is that in some cases you can commit a sin and not even be aware that you are even committing it.

[Billyray]

Isn't "willful disobedience of God", the very definition of sin?
No that is not the definition of sin.

1 John 3:4*Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Let me give you a real world example as illustration. Can you break the a law and not even know that you are doing it? Sure. You are driving down the road and the speed limit changes and you didn't see the sign. You are breaking the law but are unaware that you are doing so.

[theway]

And I know you are not speaking the truth.

1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.What in the world does that scripture have to do with being a Saint?
Just like I pointed out; you always try to argue two completely unrelated points at the same time, just so you can jump from one to the other when one side backs you into a corner.

[theway]

1 John 3
Message--(Paraphrase-not a translation of the Bible)
9-10*People conceived and brought into life by God don’t make a practice of sin. How could they? God’s seed is deep within them, making them who they are. It’s not in the nature of the God-begotten to practice and parade sin. Here’s how you tell the difference between God’s children and the Devil’s children: The one who won’t practice righteous ways isn’t from God, nor is the one who won’t love brother or sister. A simple test.Sorry, not interested In your paraphrase, especially since the actual translation says the opposite of what you want it to say.

[theway]

No that is not the definition of sin.

1 John 3:4*Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Let me give you a real world example as illustration. Can you break the a law and not even know that you are doing it? Sure. You are driving down the road and the speed limit changes and you didn't see the sign. You are breaking the law but are unaware that you are doing so.That is correct... Under the Laws of Justice "Ignorance of the Law is NO Excuse" the only problem is that since the Atonement we are under Christ's laws, or "justice with mercy".
Even in man's laws I can go to court and if I can prove that there was not a speed limit sign posted, or it was obscured from view, in almost every case I would get off without a mark on my record. This is why you usually see a lady who is blindfolded holding a scale balancing Jusitice and Mercy in front of Court Houses. The same is true with Christ. Under "justice and mercy" I am only held accountable for that which I know.

However in both Civil court and the court of God, you can not go back to court a second time and claim ignoance of the same crime. This is why when you sin after you become a Christain, the sin is greater and the repentance process is longer; not easier. Nor is forgiveness automatic as you guys preach.

[Billyray]

What in the world does that scripture have to do with being a Saint?



Speak for yourself, I am a Saint, not a sinner


1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

It shows that you are a sinner and that you did not tell me the truth.

[Billyray]

Sorry, not interested In your paraphrase, especially since the actual translation says the opposite of what you want it to say.
Because the Bible condemns your false beliefs.

[Billyray]

That is correct... Under the Laws of Justice "Ignorance of the Law is NO Excuse" the only problem is that since the Atonement we are under Christ's laws, or "justice with mercy".
Even in man's laws I can go to court and if I can prove that there was not a speed limit sign posted, or it was obscured from view, in almost every case I would get off without a mark on my record. This is why you usually see a lady who is blindfolded holding a scale balancing Jusitice and Mercy in front of Court Houses. The same is true with Christ. Under "justice and mercy" I am only held accountable for that which I know.

However in both Civil court and the court of God, you can not go back to court a second time and claim ignoance of the same crime. This is why when you sin after you become a Christain, the sin is greater and the repentance process is longer; not easier. Nor is forgiveness automatic as you guys preach.


Isn't "willful disobedience of God", the very definition of sin?
After all of that you didn't admit that your definition of sin was false.

1 John 3:4*Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

[theway]

1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

It shows that you are a sinner and that you did not tell me the truth.
No it does not.
This has nothing to do with one becoming a Saint. (but then you already knew that didn't you).
This is just another attempt by you to weasel out.

[theway]

After all of that you didn't admit that your definition of sin was false.

1 John 3:4*Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
Because I was not wrong, however you are wrong on both counts.
First, I really don't even want to go down this rabbit hole because it is merely an attempt by you to give me an unwanted ride on your merry-go-round.
Second, while all sin is a transgression of a law, not all transgressions are sins.

[theway]

Because the Bible condemns your false beliefs.LOL...What are you talking about???

You are the one who admitted that you had to go outside of the Bible in order to get a version which would line up with your heretical beliefs.
In fact the book you used explicitly says that it is not to be taken as scripture, or used as a Bible.

[Billyray]

No it does not.
This has nothing to do with one becoming a Saint. (but then you already knew that didn't you).

1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

So are you saying that you have no sin and that you keep all of the commandments all of the time?

[Billyray]

Second, while all sin is a transgression of a law, not all transgressions are sins.
So a person can break God's commandments and you say that this is not a sin? Can you explain why you believe this?


Isn't "willful disobedience of God", the very definition of sin?
You said that "willful disobedience of God" is the definition of sin. Are you changing your definition?

[Billyray]

LOL...What are you talking about???

Exactly what I said which is that the Bible condemns your false beliefs.


You are the one who admitted that you had to go outside of the Bible in order to get a version which would line up with your heretical beliefs.
In fact the book you used explicitly says that it is not to be taken as scripture, or used as a Bible.
I never admitted that I go outside the Bible for my beliefs. That is you making up a lie.. What I quoted was a paraphrase of the Bible in hopes that lds such as yourself can understand it because you seem to have a difficult time with other versions. If you like I can quote the KJV which says the same thing and it too condemns your false beliefs.

[theway]

1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

So are you saying that you have no sin and that you keep all of the commandments all of the time?Once again, this has nothing to do with being a Saint, this is just one of your diversion tactics to keep people from focusing on your many errors.

Unless if course you are trying to say that being a Saint means that you have to be free from sin both in the past and in the present???

If that is the case, you make Christ and the Apostles out to be a liars.

[theway]

So a person can break God's commandments and you say that this is not a sin? Can you explain why you believe this?If a baby walks across a lawn where there is a clearly marked sign which says, "DO NOT WALK ON THE GR***"
Then the baby has transgressed the law, but the baby did not sin.

I hoped that after thoughly schooling you on this matter we can now move past your attempt at a diversion.




You said that "willful disobedience of God" is the definition of sin. Are you changing your definition?I'm not changing anything, since I am right.

Sin is defined as "rebellion" or more exactly "rebellion against God and His commandments".
One can not rebel or willfully do anything without the conscious decision to rebel or to force your will over another will, in this case God's Will.

[theway]

Exactly what I said which is that the Bible condemns your false beliefs.
Whatsa matter... Do you no longer believe in letting the Bible interpret itself?
The clear reading of the Bible rejects YOUR interpretation. You knew this, that is why you had to go outside the Bible instead of using any of the many Bible versions available.



I never admitted that I go outside the Bible for my beliefs. That is you making up a lie.. Yes you did... You said that you were paraphrasing from an extraBiblical book called the MESSAGE. The book itself says it is not to be used as scripture or as a Bible.


What I quoted was a paraphrase of the Bible in hopes that lds such as yourself can understand it because you seem to have a difficult time with other versions. If you like I can quote the KJV which says the same thing and it too condemns your false beliefs.I once told you not to underestimate my ability to comprehend or my understanding of the Bible. So if we disagree on interpretation; Just ***ume you are the one who is wrong.

If you believed the KJV clearly stated what you wanted it to say... Then you would have used the KJV. The fact that you did not use the KJV or even one of your own Evangelical versions, shows us that you knew you could not defend yourself or your beliefs from the Bible.

[Billyray]

Once again, this has nothing to do with being a Saint, this is just one of your diversion tactics to keep people from focusing on your many errors.

Let's look at our conversation to remind you what YOU said.



We are all sinners, both believers and unbelievers.


Speak for yourself, I am a Saint, not a sinner

[Billyray]

If a baby walks across a lawn where there is a clearly marked sign which says, "DO NOT WALK ON THE GR***"
Then the baby has transgressed the law, but the baby did not sin.

So your position is that if a person isn't aware of breaking a commandment then it is not a sin. Is that your position?


I hoped that after thoughly schooling you on this matter we can now move past your attempt at a diversion.
Trust me you haven't "schooled" anyone since you are wrong and you are still i g n o r a n t of your error.

[Billyray]

Then the baby has transgressed the law, but the baby did not sin.
1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Do you realize that your definition is in direct conflict to what the Bible says?

[Billyray]

Whatsa matter... Do you no longer believe in letting the Bible interpret itself?
The clear reading of the Bible rejects YOUR interpretation. You knew this, that is why you had to go outside the Bible instead of using any of the many Bible versions available.

Here is the exchange that you are speaking about. In my quote I used the Message which is a paraphrase of the Bible but I can use any version and it condemns your position.



Here is another one of your duplicitous statements you always make. If you call yourself a sinner, then that means you are willfully disobeying God. The amount of times you willfully disobey God does not matter. Therefore, if you are willfully disobeying God, and you believe you are still saved then my first statement was correct.
In your theology, "you can disobey God and still be saved"

1 John 3
Message--(Paraphrase-not a translation of the Bible)
9-10*People conceived and brought into life by God don’t make a practice of sin. How could they? God’s seed is deep within them, making them who they are. It’s not in the nature of the God-begotten to practice and parade sin. Here’s how you tell the difference between God’s children and the Devil’s children: The one who won’t practice righteous ways isn’t from God, nor is the one who won’t love brother or sister. A simple test.

1 John 3 KJV
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

The KJV says the exact same thing as the Message which I quoted before. You were wrong then when you set up a straw man when you said that Christians believe that they can be saved and refuse to obey God and you are wrong now in persisting on this topic.

[Billyray]

I once told you not to underestimate my ability to comprehend or my understanding of the Bible.
If you understood the Bible--like you say that you do--you wouldn't be making all of the mistakes that you are making.

[theway]

So your position is that if a person isn't aware of breaking a commandment then it is not a sin. Is that your position?


Trust me you haven't "schooled" anyone since you are wrong and you are still i g n o r a n t of your error.I think that I've already proved my point enough, so I'll be jumping off your merry-go-round ride now.

You can claim victory now if you desire...

[theway]

If you understood the Bible--like you say that you do--you wouldn't be making all of the mistakes that you are making.I didn't make a mistake, however I think I'll be jumping off this ride also.

You may now claim victory here also...

[theway]

Here is the exchange that you are speaking about. In my quote I used the Message which is a paraphrase of the Bible but I can use any version and it condemns your position.

1 John 3 KJV
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

The KJV says the exact same thing as the Message which I quoted before. You were wrong then when you set up a straw man when you said that Christians believe that they can be saved and refuse to obey God and you are wrong now in persisting on this topic.
No thanks, not in the mood for another ride.... You win.

[theway]

1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Do you realize that your definition is in direct conflict to what the Bible says?Here it is again.. Notice everyone how when he is defeated on one argument he simply jumps back to the old one he already lost on, or which was never even being argued in the first place.
He'll keep going around in circles like this for days; this is why I call it The Billyray Merry-Go-Round ride.

[Billyray]

I think that I've already proved my point enough, so I'll be jumping off your merry-go-round ride now.

I want to confirm your position before I show you that you are wrong. Fair enough.

So your position is that if a person isn't aware of breaking a commandment then it is not a sin. Is that your position?

[theway]

I want to confirm your position before I show you that you are wrong. Fair enough.

So your position is that if a person isn't aware of breaking a commandment then it is not a sin. Is that your position?
LOL....

Notice everyone how even after I said that he can claim a victory, he still wants to argue it.
This is simply because Billyray likes to argue more than he likes the truth, the answer, or even the win, so much so that he tries to keep it going on forever.

[Billyray]

I didn't make a mistake. . .

Then you haven't been paying attention. Your first big mistake is when you set up the straw man argument that Christians believe that they can be saved and refuse to obey the commandments. You were completely wrong on this one and you still haven't admitted your error. I even gave you a verse but you didn't seem interested in that either

[Billyray]

Notice everyone how even after I said that he can claim a victory, he still wants to argue it.

You are wrong in your definition of sin and you don't even believe your own definition. I could give you several examples that would prove this point.

[theway]

You are wrong in your definition of sin and you don't even believe your own definition. I could give you several examples that would prove this point.
Why don't you do that then Billy... While I do something else.

[Billyray]

Here it is again.. Notice everyone how when he is defeated on one argument he simply jumps back to the old one he already lost on, or which was never even being argued in the first place.
He'll keep going around in circles like this for days; this is why I call it The Billyray Merry-Go-Round ride.
Let's look at the discussion in context and see who is the one who made up his own definition for sin--which by the way conflicts with what the Bible says.



So a person can break God's commandments and you say that this is not a sin? Can you explain why you believe this?


Then the baby has transgressed the law, but the baby did not sin.

1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Do you realize that your definition is in direct conflict to what the Bible says?

[Billyray]

Why don't you do that then Billy...
Your definition of sin is willful disobedience to God's commandments. A person who is not aware of breaking a commandment has not committed sin. Now let's take that definition and I will give you an example. You go out tracking for prospective LDS converts and you come across a young women who seems interested in the LDS gospel but she was brought up in an atheist home and never went to church. She tells you that she recently had an abortion which is legal and was recommended to her by her family and friends.

Since she never set foot inside a church and was raised atheist would you agree that the abortion that she had was not a sin by your own definition of sin?

[dberrie2000]

Then you haven't been paying attention. Your first big mistake is when you set up the straw man argument that Christians believe that they can be saved and refuse to obey the commandments. You were completely wrong on this one and you still haven't admitted your error. I even gave you a verse but you didn't seem interested in that either


Billyray--the faith alone are just that--faith that is alone for salvation. They do not believe that there are any acts of obedience to Jesus Christ that is necessary for His grace unto life. Like you--they believe that first one is saved--then works. Works are independent of being saved.

How are you relating obeying the commandments PRIOR to being saved? Here is how the scriptures do it:

John 5:28-29---King James Version (KJV)

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation.


How does that compare to your theology--it matches the LDS theology very well.

[Billyray]

Billyray--the faith alone are just that--faith that is alone for salvation.
Those who have faith will naturally produce works but the works do not contribute for salvation.

Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.[/SIZE]

[Billyray]

John 5:28-29---King James Version (KJV)

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation.


How does that compare to your theology--it matches the LDS theology very well.
John 6
28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post

John 5:28-29---King James Version (KJV)

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation.


How does that compare to your theology--it matches the LDS theology very well.


John 6
28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

What is the evidence that those who obey God are not the ones who believe in Him?


Luke 6:46---King James Version (KJV)

46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

[Billyray]

What is the evidence that those who obey God are not the ones who believe in Him?

John 6
28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

"What shall we do, that we might work the works of God" according to verse 29?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post---What is the evidence that those who obey God are not the ones who believe in Him?

Luke 6:46---King James Version (KJV)

46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?


John 6
28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

"What shall we do, that we might work the works of God" according to verse 29?

Exactly what the scriptures state--to obey God:


Revelation 22:13-15---King James Version (KJV)


13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and *****mongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

Again--what is your evidence that believing in God somehow cancels out obedience to Him?

[Billyray]

Exactly what the scriptures state--to obey God:

But you didn't answer my question DB. Here it is again.

John 6
28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

"What shall we do, that we might work the works of God" according to verse 29?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
John 6
28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

"What shall we do, that we might work the works of God" according to verse 29?


dberrie----Exactly what the scriptures state--to obey God:


Revelation 22:13-15---King James Version (KJV)


13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and *****mongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

Again--what is your evidence that believing in God somehow cancels out obedience to Him?


But you didn't answer my question DB. Here it is again.

John 6
28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

"What shall we do, that we might work the works of God" according to verse 29?

Again--to obey God, and do His works:


James 2:20-26---King James Version (KJV)


20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.


You aren't thinking the belief in John6 consists of dead faith are you?


John 14:12-15---King James Version (KJV)


12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.


Tell us, Billyray--are you attempting to separate belief and obedience to Christ? Faith from works?

[Billyray]

Again--to obey God, and do His works:

John 6
28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

And what is the work that is required according to Jesus in verse 29?

[dberrie2000]

John 6
28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

And what is the work that is required according to Jesus in verse 29?

The same work that God commands throughout the scriptures:

John 14:12-15---King James Version (KJV)

12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also;


1 John 2:4---King James Version (KJV)

4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.



John 17:3---King James Version (KJV)

3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

[Billyray]

The same work that God commands throughout the scriptures:

John 6
28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

And what is the work that is required according to Jesus in verse 29?

[Billyray]

The same work that God commands throughout the scriptures:

John 6
28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

In verse 28 those that were with Jesus asked Him, "What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?

What do you think they meant when they asked Jesus "What shall we do"?