Awww, Shucks!

[Billyray]

Do babies who die when they are under 1 week old have the ability to place their faith in Christ and thus be saved? How can they accept the gospel unless they can hear it? And how can they hear it if there wasn't a teacher to preach it to them while they were alive?

Didn't we just talk about this not too long ago?


Now lets look at the example of a baby. Jeff would say that a baby all the way up until age 8 doesn't sin. You would say that a baby doesn't sin but a 3-4 year old and upward sins. And I would say that we all sin. We would likely all agree that a child is incapable of accepting Christ. My personal belief (which is not based on scripture because the Bible is silent on this issue, with the exception of David's child, which is why I don't state it as fact) is that a baby/child sins but that since he is incapable of understanding right or wrong and is incapable at that age of accepting Christ he or his is sinful but not accountable thus will likely be saved. Jeff on the other hand says that children up to age 8 don't sin (which means that they do sin but is not called sin because he doesn't know right from wrong i.e. not accountable) thus this is the basis for his or her salvation. In a practical sense we would agree on this point. And your belief is probably in between Jeff's belief and my belief.

[alanmolstad]

Could you explain the fact the scriptures have God giving His grace to those who obey Him--all who obey Him, past, present, and future---and it not be a reaction of God to the future actions of those who have faith in Christ?

Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.

And, by the way, God sends his Grace when people who do not obey him, for where sin increased, grace increased all the more

[alanmolstad]

Do babies who die when they are under 1 week old have the ability to place their faith in Christ and thus be saved? I dont believe we have a clear verse on the topic...

[nrajeffreturns]

I dont believe we have a clear verse on the topic...

Sure you do, if you're a Calvinist: "For all have sinned...." remember?

[Billyray]

Sure you do, if you're a Calvinist: "For all have sinned...." remember?
Calvinist or Arminian this verse along with many others state that we have all sinned.

[dberrie2000]

Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.

And, by the way, God sends his Grace when people who do not obey him, for where sin increased, grace increased all the more

The scriptures do not have those who refuse to obey Christ inheriting eternal life:

1 Peter 4:17 (King James Version)

17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

[Billyray]

The scriptures do not have those who refuse to obey Christ inheriting eternal life:

1 Peter 4:17 (King James Version)

17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?


DB can you define the gospel as taught in the Bible and define the lds gospel.

[dberrie2000]

DB can you define the gospel as taught in the Bible and define the lds gospel.

I'll let all read and define the Bible as they might--it is plain enough--but whatever the gospel is defined as in the Biblical NT--that is also found in the LDS church.

[Billyray]

I'll let all read and define the Bible as they might--it is plain enough--but whatever the gospel is defined as in the Biblical NT--that is also found in the LDS church.
So I take it from your answer you don't know the definition of the Biblical gospel? How about the LDS gospel can you define that or not?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Billyray View Post---DB can you define the gospel as taught in the Bible and define the lds gospel.


Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post---I'll let all read and define the Bible as they might--it is plain enough--but whatever the gospel is defined as in the Biblical NT--that is also found in the LDS church.


So I take it from your answer you don't know the definition of the Biblical gospel?

Which portion of the Biblical gospel are you speaking of? This one, perhaps? :


Mark 1:1-4---King James Version (KJV)


1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;

2 As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.

3 The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.

4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.



How about the LDS gospel can you define that or not?

I define the core salvational doctrines of the LDS church as those one would find in the Biblical NT. If you have a particular point to discuss--please ask it.

Meanwhile--could you explain what the Bible does teach and collate it with the faith alone theology?


James 2:24----New American Standard Bible (NASB)


24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

[Billyray]

Which portion of the Biblical gospel are you speaking of? This one, perhaps? :


Mark 1:1-4---King James Version (KJV)


1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;

2 As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.

3 The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.

4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.
So I take it by your answer that the Biblical gospel is being baptized. Is that what you think that the Biblical gospel really is?

[Billyray]

I define the core salvational doctrines of the LDS church as those one would find in the Biblical NT. If you have a particular point to discuss--please ask it.


You can't give me the Biblical gospel but I am really surprised that you can't even give me the LDS gospel.

[dberrie2000]

You can't give me the Biblical gospel but I am really surprised that you can't even give me the LDS gospel.

Asking for me to go through a blanket explanation of the gospel is not going to bring any results from me. Would you like to discuss a particular point of the Biblical record and contrast that to the LDS theology?

[Billyray]

Asking for me to go through a blanket explanation of the gospel is not going to bring any results from me.

Is it that difficult to explain the Biblical gospel OR the lds gospel?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post---Asking for me to go through a blanket explanation of the gospel is not going to bring any results from me. Would you like to discuss a particular point of the Biblical record and contrast that to the LDS theology?


Is it that difficult to explain the Biblical gospel OR the lds gospel?

Again--would you like to discuss a particular point within the Biblical text--and contrast that to the LDS theology?

Here is one point I would like to discuss with those of the faith alone theology:



James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)


24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

[Billyray]

Again--would you like to discuss a particular point within the Biblical text--and contrast that to the LDS theology?



I would like to discuss the lds gospel and how it differs from the Biblical gospel but first you need to define each.

[Billyray]

James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)


24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.




James 2
Faith and Deeds

14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

18 But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.”

Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. 19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

20 You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless[d]? 21 Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,”[e] and he was called God’s friend. 24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.

25 In the same way, was not even Rahab the pros***ute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

Let's start with verse 14 which says in part "if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds?

When James says "if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds", what do you think he means?

[dberrie2000]

I would like to discuss the lds gospel and how it differs from the Biblical gospel but first you need to define each.

No. But if you have an individual doctrine you would like to discuss--let's do it. Whatever is found in the Bible--is also found in the LDS church. Not true with the faith alone--they share precious little in common with the Bible.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post----James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)


24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.


Billyary----James 2
Faith and Deeds

14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

18 But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.”

Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. 19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

20 You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless[d]? 21 Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,”[e] and he was called God’s friend. 24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.

25 In the same way, was not even Rahab the pros***ute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.
Let's start with verse 14 which says in part "if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds?

When James says "if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds", what do you think he means?


I think James means exactly what he states:

-James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)


24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

[Billyray]

I think James means exactly what he states:
-James 2:24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

When James says "if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds", what do you think he means?

Do you think the person above who claims to have faith really does have faith?

[Billyray]

Which portion of the Biblical gospel are you speaking of? This one, perhaps? :


Mark 1:1-4---King James Version (KJV)


1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;

2 As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.

3 The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.

4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.


Mark 1
1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;
2 As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.
3 The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.
5 And there went out unto him all the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins.
6 And John was clothed with camel's hair, and with a girdle of a skin about his loins; and he did eat locusts and wild honey;
7 And preached, saying, There cometh one mightier than I after me, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to stoop down and unloose.
8 I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.

You brought this p***age up so perhaps you can explain it to me from your perspective including verse 8?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post---Which portion of the Biblical gospel are you speaking of? This one, perhaps? :


Mark 1:1-4---King James Version (KJV)


1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;

2 As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.

3 The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.

4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.


Billyray----Mark 1
1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;
2 As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.
3 The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.
5 And there went out unto him all the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins.
6 And John was clothed with camel's hair, and with a girdle of a skin about his loins; and he did eat locusts and wild honey;
7 And preached, saying, There cometh one mightier than I after me, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to stoop down and unloose.
8 I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.


You brought this p***age up so perhaps you can explain it to me from your perspective including verse 8?

What is there to explain? The servants of Christ performed water baptism for the remission of sins--God gives the Holy Ghost. How are you relating that to the fact all were commanded to repent and be baptized for the remission of sins? God's grace for our obedience.

[Billyray]

What is there to explain? The servants of Christ performed water baptism for the remission of sins--God gives the Holy Ghost. How are you relating that to the fact all were commanded to repent and be baptized for the remission of sins? God's grace for our obedience.
So you agree then that when you see the word "baptism" in the Bible this may refer to being born again by God's spirit and NOT referring to water baptism?

[dberrie2000]

So you agree then that when you see the word "baptism" in the Bible this may refer to being born again by God's spirit and NOT referring to water baptism?

When repentance and baptism was commanded for the remission of sins--that baptism was referring to water baptism--as it would be redundant to include the gift of the Holy Ghost separate from the water baptism, and it be the same baptism:


Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)


38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.


Billyray--water baptism was John's baptism:

Mark 1:1-4---King James Version (KJV)


1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;

2 As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.

3 The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.

4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.


Again--you are toast to the scriptures.

[Billyray]

When repentance and baptism was commanded for the remission of sins--that baptism was referring to water baptism-

OK


as it would be redundant to include the gift of the Holy Ghost separate from the water baptism, and it be the same baptism:

Then why are they separated in this section of scripture if what you said were true?

[Billyray]

Again--you are toast to the scriptures.
Really? OK.

What did John say was the reason that he was baptizing?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Billyray View Post---So you agree then that when you see the word "baptism" in the Bible this may refer to being born again by God's spirit and NOT referring to water baptism?


dberrie-----When repentance and baptism was commanded for the remission of sins--that baptism was referring to water baptism--as it would be redundant to include the gift of the Holy Ghost separate from the water baptism, and it be the same baptism:


Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)


38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.


Billyray--water baptism was John's baptism:

Mark 1:1-4---King James Version (KJV)


1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;

2 As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.

3 The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.

4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.


Again--you are toast to the scriptures.


Really? OK. What did John say was the reason that he was baptizing?

Exactly what the scripture above states:

4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.

Could you explain for us how that differs from Peter's message after Christ's resurrectionj? :


Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)


38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.


Billyray--you can squirm, wiggle, and wrestle with the scriptures all you want--but if that is true--then faith alone theology is false--period.

[Billyray]

Exactly what the scripture above states:

Did you bother even looking in the book of John to see what John had to say about this? I guess not.

John 1:
29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!
30 This is the one I meant when I said, ‘A man who comes after me has surp***ed me because he was before me.’
31 I myself did not know him,but the reason I came baptizing with water was that he might be revealed to Israel.”

[dberrie2000]

dberrie----Exactly what the scripture above states:

4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.

Could you explain for us how that differs from Peter's message after Christ's resurrectionj? :


Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)


38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.


Billyray--you can squirm, wiggle, and wrestle with the scriptures all you want--but if that is true--then faith alone theology is false--period.


Did you bother even looking in the book of John to see what John had to say about this? I guess not.

John 1:
29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!
30 This is the one I meant when I said, ‘A man who comes after me has surp***ed me because he was before me.’
31 I myself did not know him,but the reason I came baptizing with water was that he might be revealed to Israel.”

How are you using that to cancel what the scriptures teach--that repentance and water baptism was for the remission of sins?

[Billyray]

How are you using that to cancel what the scriptures teach--that repentance and water baptism was for the remission of sins?
Romans 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Romans 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Romans 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Ephesians 2
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

[alanmolstad]

The thing i do, as well as the same thing I suggest for others, is to make liberal use of the IGNORE settings on this forum.
that way we dont have to bother Jill all the time.....we dont want to have it seem that all that goes on here is bickering.

[alanmolstad]

I've been banned over 35 times there, with at least 60 warnings.

If I never got banned on these Anti-Mormon sites then I would begin to question whether I was effective.
Getting banned from an Anti-Mormon site means you are doing something right, and I see them as Badges of Honor, .well I guess you can see all the times you get banned whatever way you want.

But I can say one thing for 100% sure as far as this site goes...and that is that no one gets banned from this site unless they break the rules...

The rules apply regardless of the religion you are a part of...

If you note the people who have the word "BANNED" under their name you will see clearly that being banned has nothing to do with what religion you support here.
It has nothing to do with "favorites",,,,
It has nothing to do with being a member of the same religion as the people that run this forum.

In every case, the reason anyone gets a warning here and or gets banned is because they simply refuse to follow the listed rules that they did actually agree to follow when they first logged-on to this site.

So while many people do tend to get banned from one site to the next and do tend to justify this fact with all sorts of reasons, the truth is that they get banned for all the same reason.....breaking the listed rules,

case-closed.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post How are you using that to cancel what the scriptures teach--that repentance and water baptism was for the remission of sins?


Romans 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Romans 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Romans 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Ephesians 2
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

The scriptures bear witness repentance and water baptism was taught for the remission of sins--and any attempt to cover up or cancel out that testimony using other scriptures--- is nothing short of an attempt to render the Biblical text an unreliable source of truth, IMO:

Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

How does Romans or Ephesians render that scripture null and void?

[alanmolstad]

well I guess you can see all the times you get banned whatever way you want.

But I can say one thing for 100% sure as far as this site goes...and that is that no one gets banned from this site unless they break the rules...

The rules apply regardless of the religion you are a part of...

If you note the people who have the word "BANNED" under their name you will see clearly that being banned has nothing to do with what religion you support here.
It has nothing to do with "favorites",,,,
It has nothing to do with being a member of the same religion as the people that run this forum.

In every case, the reason anyone gets a warning here and or gets banned is because they simply refuse to follow the listed rules that they did actually agree to follow when they first logged-on to this site.

So while many people do tend to get banned from one site to the next and do tend to justify this fact with all sorts of reasons, the truth is that they get banned for all the same reason.....breaking the listed rules,

case-closed.

I believe this post needs to be shown here again....



"In every case, the reason anyone gets a warning here and or gets banned is because they simply refuse to follow the listed rules"

The only reason anyone gets banned here.....is for breaking the rules.