Faith vs Works for Salvation

[Libby]

I don't think, either, Mormons nor Orthodox Christians believe that we can be saved by "works" alone, so that is not really the crux of the disagreement, between these two factions.

Here is the difference, as I see it.

Orthodox Christians believe that faith alone is the saving principle. Works spring from faith, but do not add to salvation.

LDS believe that faith and works are inseparable (two sides of the same coin) and, therefore, works do contribute towards salvation. There really is no salvation (in the Celestial Kingdom, at least), unless there is also obedience through works.

Does this properly represent the crux of both sides of this argument?

[Billyray]

I don't think, either, Mormons nor Orthodox Christians believe that we can be saved by "works" alone, so that is not really the crux of the disagreement, between these two factions.

You are really going off the deep end now Libby if you don't see the difference between Christianity and Mormonism with respect to salvation.

[Libby]

You are really going off the deep end now Libby if you don't see the difference between Christianity and Mormonism with respect to salvation.

What are you talking about??

I just delineated the DIFFERENCE.

You are the one "off the deep end"....always so ready to condemn, even when you don't understand.

[Billyray]

What are you talking about??

I just delineated the DIFFERENCE.

You are the one "off the deep end"....always so ready to condemn, even when you don't understand.


I did read your post again and you did get the Christian part right in the third paragraph. LDS believe in faith AND works for salvation. Christians believe that we are saved when we place our faith in Christ and works do not contribute for salvation.

[Libby]

I am simply trying to clarify the differences, so that we are all on the same page.

[Libby]

LDS believe in faith AND works for salvation. Christians believe that we are saved when we place our faith in Christ and works do not contribute for salvation.

Yes, exactly. Did you read my post?? That is exactly what I said.

[Billyray]

Yes, exactly. Did you read my post?? That is exactly what I said.
See post 4

I did read your post again and you did get the Christian part right in the third paragraph. LDS believe in faith AND works for salvation. Christians believe that we are saved when we place our faith in Christ and works do not contribute for salvation.

[Billyray]

I don't think, either,
How can you say that it isn't either when you then go on to say that Christians believe that salvation is by faith and not by works?

[Libby]

How can you say that it isn't either when you then go on to say that Christians believe that salvation is by faith and not by works?

Aye.

I am simply saying that Mormons don't believe in "work alone" for salvation, as many Christians seem to believe. They believe in a combination of faith and work for salvation.

And, for the record, I am in the "faith alone" category. I am not defending LDS belief. Simply clarifying, in order to get a proper discussion going (where we are all on the same page).

You and I are in agreement here, Billy, so just relax and go with it.

[Billyray]

Aye.

I am simply saying that Mormons don't believe in "work alone" for salvation, as many Christians seem to believe. They believe in a combination of faith and work for salvation.

First you were wrong when you said "either". And you were wrong to ***ume that any Christian on this forum believes that Mormons don't believe they need to have faith along with works. A straw man argument on your part.

[Libby]

First you were wrong when you said "either". And you were wrong to ***ume that any Christian on this forum believes that Mormons don't believe they need to have faith along with works. A straw man argument on your part.

Not at all. Neither Christians nor Mormons believe in "work alone" for salvation. That is absolutely the truth.

Secondly, just because the couple of Christians on this board don't misunderstand that, doesn't mean all critics know this. I have met several who have made that claim.

Just trying to clarify (for lurkers or whomever wanders in here). You don't have to get your feathers ruffled over nothing, Billy. I know all you want to do is fight....and can't tolerate that we might actually agree on some things, but you're just gonna have to cope with that.

[Libby]

After I get some agreement on the OP, I will put up a defense for salvation through "faith alone".

[Billyray]

Not at all. Neither Christians nor Mormons believe in "work alone" for salvation. That is absolutely the truth.
Here is what you said.

"Faith vs Works for Salvation
I don't think, either. . ."

It is either for Christianity. Christians believe that it is by faith and not by works.

[Billyray]

Secondly, just because the couple of Christians on this board don't misunderstand that, doesn't mean all critics know this. I have met several who have made that claim.

No Christians on this board-- that I have ever seen--have made the claim that mormons believe that faith is not required for salvation. A pure straw man argument.

[Libby]

No straw argument, since I know some who do make this argument. And, just because they are not on this board, doesn't mean they are not lurking.

Anyway, does anyone have a problem with the differences I cited in the OP?

Here is the difference, as I see it.


Orthodox Christians believe that faith alone is the saving principle. Works spring from faith, but do not add to salvation.

LDS believe that faith and works are inseparable (two sides of the same coin) and, therefore, works do contribute towards salvation. There really is no salvation (in the Celestial Kingdom, at least), unless there is also obedience through works.

[Libby]

I'm going to present some Bible verses that I believe support the "faith alone" view. When I say "faith alone", I simply mean that we are saved based on faith in Jesus Christ...that he is our Savior and Redeemer. Good works will naturally spring from that faith, but the works are a byproduct (the fruit of salvation) and not a part of our actual salvation, which is by grace through faith, alone.

John 3:18, 36
He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already .... He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Acts 16:30-31
Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Romans 3:20, 28
By the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight. A man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Romans 4:2
For if Abraham were justified by works he hath whereof to glory? (v.28)
Romans 4:13
For the promise ... was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

Romans 5:1
Therefore, being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.

That's a few for starters.

[alanmolstad]

I'm going to present some Bible verses that I believe support the "faith alone" view. .

who teaches that we are saved by "faith alone"...?

[Libby]

who teaches that we are saved by "faith alone"...?

Most Protestant Churches, Alan.

[Billyray]

Most Protestant Churches, Alan.

Salvation is by faith and works do not contribute for salvation.

[Libby]

Salvation is by faith and works do not contribute for salvation.

Yes, well, you need to direct that to Alan, as he is the one who implied that we are not saved by faith alone. I happen to agree with you and have set out to provide evidence for that belief.

[Libby]

who teaches that we are saved by "faith alone"...?

So, what is your belief on this issue, exactly, Alan? Where do you stand on the faith vs works issues? Do you believe that works are necessary for salvation?

[alanmolstad]

Yes, well, you need to direct that to Alan, as he is the one who implied that we are not saved by faith alone. I happen to agree with you and have set out to provide evidence for that belief.>>>>>

I quoted dr Walter Martin...I posted the link to the video where he goes on to make this point very clear and provides the Bible verses that support this understanding.

We are not saved by Faith alone.
We are not saved by Works alone
We are not saved by faith and works
We are not saved by works and faith.

We are ONLY saved by Grace though faith and not by works.

Now here is the video that makes this clear.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rcf1J6AJB9M .PLEASE listen to it,(it's short)and try not to ask a question that is answered on the video more clearly than i could ever match.







case-closed...

[alanmolstad]

So, what is your belief on this issue, exactly, Alan? Where do you stand on the faith vs works issues? Do you believe that works are necessary for salvation?

I believe you dont have a clue what billy nor i are saying....

I believe your use of the wording of being saved by "faith alone" shows just how in the dark you are about what is being said.

it suggests to me that Billy and i should drop back and really make a totally new effort to define our terms, as what you are saying show us both that you are clue-free as to what we are saying, and as to what the message of the Christian church is...

it shows me that while you may be quick to confess that you reject the christian church teachings on salvation, yet on examination you display a real lack of understanding of the things you so quickly claim to reject....

[alanmolstad]

Most Protestant Churches, Alan.

Your being foolish.....or.....your understanding of the Protestant church is poor....

You need to back that up.....or admit that you may not have a real great understanding of Protestant church teaching on being saved by GRACe though faith and not by works as is taught in the Scriptures

[alanmolstad]

see,,,,you go on, and on telling everyone how you reject the christian church teachings I share with you on salvation, but yet when you try to define what im saying you only show how very little you know of what I speak...

So it's a bit hard for me to deal with what you are saying, and deal with the things you are rejecting when what you are rejecting is not actually part of the Teachings you are hearing from me or Billy....


So dont ask me to defend the "faith alone' teachings when i have told you over and over and OVER that no such teachings are in the church or in the BIBLE!.,.....

[Libby]

Really, I have no idea what you are rambling on about, Alan.

Fact is, I have spent more time in Protestant Churches than any other (including the LDS Church).

Yes, I took a detour, for a bit, last year, but never lost my faith in Christ (which is why I am back in a mainstream church, at this time).

As for "faith alone" (and, yes, I agree it is by grace through faith that we are saved, Ephesians 2:8) it is a staple of mainstream Protestant Churches...so, I have to wonder how much you really know about Protestantism.

"Sola fide (Latin: by faith alone), also historically known as the doctrine of justification by faith alone, is a Christian theological doctrine that distinguishes most Protestant denominations from Catholicism, Orthodox Christianity, and some in the Restoration Movement."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sola_fide

[alanmolstad]

Here is what i thyink i need to do...

I need to have you listen to only a few seconds of this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rcf1J6AJB9M

click on about the 0:30 second mark, and listen for about 10 seconds...


Just give me 10 seconds of your time to help you see that we are NOT saying that salvation is by "faith alone"



Here is your question....
at the 0:30 second point of the video what does walter martin say about being saved by faith alone, or saved by faith and works, or any combination?


well?......

[alanmolstad]

just look at the video.....give me 10 seconds or your time....

[Libby]

I'm not really interested in what Walter Martin has to say about it. I am more interested in what the Bible says about it.

[Libby]

just look at the video.....give me 10 seconds or your time....

Okay, he is saying exactly what I said and what the Bible says. Salvation is by grace through faith alone.

Next?

[Libby]

Ephesians 2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith —and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

[alanmolstad]

Okay, he is saying exactly what I said and what the Bible says. Salvation is by grace through faith alone.

Next?

This simple message is at the heart of the Bible and the Church....

This is all I have ever said on the topic of how we are saved...

If anyone adds to this simple message anything about 'works' then reject them!

I dont read many of the posts of some here, but I tell you right now, if they add to what I have said, and what you have heard Walter Martin say...REJECT them!

I dont care who they think they are....

[Libby]

So, we are in agreement on this issue, right?

[alanmolstad]

Ephesians 2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith —and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.


all I can say to this post is.....AMEN!

[Libby]

Ephesians 2:8 was one of the verses that kept haunting me, when I was LDS. That and Isaiah 44:6.

[alanmolstad]

So, we are in agreement on this issue, right?

Walter Martin always advised that you have to be careful to really define your terms right down to the smallest dot and tiddle, because if you are not careful you will find that a Moonie (a Korean CULT) will say the same things you say too, and quote you the same verses you quote too, so it will seem like you two are in agreement, but really they moonie has a different definition for the terms you use...


this happens all the time when I say "Jesus is God" and the CULTIST says "Thats true"....but because they believe in many gods, and that Jesus was just one of millions of gods that they believe in, the agreement that "Jesus is God" you have is a moot point.

[alanmolstad]

BUT...........

on the other hand......

[alanmolstad]

one of the issues that pops up is that Christians have a type of 'short-hand' that we like to use when dealing with the question of how we find salvation.....

Notice in that video at the at the 0:30 second point aht Walter martin is actually starting of his answer by CORRECTING the host......!!!

Now the Host is a good christian, but the the host also used shorthand when talking and making his question to Walter....

[alanmolstad]

The Host seems to say we Christians teach that we are saved by "faith alone"....

Walter martin corrects him....


What the Host says is not actually wrong in a certain 'context'....but it is wrong in a different context....

[alanmolstad]

when it is fine to say we are saved by "faith alone" is only when we are speaking in the context of being saved by 'works"

if you are dealing with the context of being saved by "works", then the shorthand answer that many Christians use to point out how wrong believing that works save us is to say that we are saved by "faith alone"

But in the wider context of teaching the fullness of christian teachings, you have to say that we are "Saved only by Grace alone, though faith and not by works"....

[Libby]

The Host seems to say we Christians teach that we are saved by "faith alone"....

Walter martin corrects him....


What the Host says is not actually wrong in a certain 'context'....but it is wrong in a different context....

Yeah, it's not wrong to say we are saved by faith alone. Christians say that all the time.

Sola Fida
Sola Scriptura
Sola Gratia

[alanmolstad]

so in other words.....whenever you read or hear a christian say that we are saved by "faith alone' it mostly only speaking in the context of dealing with others who believe we are saved by "works" in some measure...

"faith alone" is the common response to someone who says we are saved by 'faith and works"

BUT....as Walter Martin points out at the 0:30 of the video...we are not actually saved by "Faith "...nor by "faith and works"

[alanmolstad]

Walter Martin is correct t when he tells us at the 0:32 point of the video that there is NO COMBINATION of "Faith and Works" that can save us....

[Libby]

I really got the feel for salvation by grace through faith, along time ago, when a dear friend of mine spent a lot of time with me, going through the Bible verses on this and really bringing it home for me. I wish I had his gift for teaching....although, really, it was coming from his center in Christ, I believe.

I remember being very impressed by the idea that God/Christ is doing the saving...and it has to be that way, because he is perfectly Holy, perfectly perfect.. and the only one who can do this work. Our "egoic" works are tainted with sin, because of our nature and just cannot be acceptable before God. That is why Christ had to die for us. The perfectly unblemished lamb...

Nothing at all we can do other than accept that perfect sacrifice.

[James Banta]

I really got the feel for salvation by grace through faith, along time ago, when a dear friend of mine spent a lot of time with me, going through the Bible verses on this and really bringing it home for me. I wish I had his gift for teaching....although, really, it was coming from his center in Christ, I believe.

I remember being very impressed by the idea that God/Christ is doing the saving...and it has to be that way, because he is perfectly Holy, perfectly perfect.. and the only one who can do this work. Our "egoic" works are tainted with sin, because of our nature and just cannot be acceptable before God. That is why Christ had to die for us. The perfectly unblemished lamb...

Nothing at all we can do other than accept that perfect sacrifice.

You said it pretty well here Libby.. Now if someone rejects the gift of salvation through faith in Jesus and goes about trying to established their salvation through there own efforts are such people saved or just deluding themselves in their own self righteous? IHS jim

[Libby]

I'm very willing to present what I believe and why. I will also give my opinion (for what it's worth) about "doctrine" that I believe is wrong. But, I'm not going to judge individuals, as to whether or not they are in Christ. That's not my ***.

[alanmolstad]

I'm very willing to present what I believe and why. I will also give my opinion (for what it's worth) about "doctrine" that I believe is wrong. But, I'm not going to judge individuals, as to whether or not they are in Christ. That's not my ***.

we can judge only by looking at the works of people and our own...this is because only God can see the heart...only God sees the true faith of any of us.

[Libby]

Seems like a lot of people would rather look at a person's beliefs. Personally, I don't think that's a very good indicator. We all, undoubtedly, hold some wrong beliefs. Doesn't mean we cannot have a relationship with Jesus Christ.

[alanmolstad]

Faith in the wrong Jesus is pointless...

[dberrie2000]

I don't think, either, Mormons nor Orthodox Christians believe that we can be saved by "works" alone, so that is not really the crux of the disagreement, between these two factions.

Here is the difference, as I see it.

Orthodox Christians believe that faith alone is the saving principle. Works spring from faith, but do not add to salvation.

Then the question remains for orthodox Christians--can one obtain salvation through dead faith?


James 2:20---King James Version (KJV)


20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

I have often said--one must distinguish between orthodox Christianity and the true Christianity of the first century church, and found within the Biblical NT.

[alanmolstad]

Then the question remains for orthodox Christians--can one obtain salvation through dead faith?


James 2:20---King James Version (KJV)


20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

I have often said--one must distinguish between orthodox Christianity and the true Christianity of the first century church, and found within the Biblical NT.
While you are dead in your sins, God will reach out to you....
Each person is saved by Grace though faith....not by works...

thus you never have to worry that you have lacked in this or that work or project , as if you had to earn your salvation.

The good news is that there is NO heavy lifting to being saved, for the Lord has done all the work...

"But Alan, is there no work by the person needed to be saved?"....None!, save the work of having faith in the completed work of the cross of Christ.

Thus we are not saved by the fulfilling of works, but rather we are saved by Grace though faith, and out of our faith comes works...

In this way the works in my life are like the sound that comes forth from my car's motor.
The sound is not the important part, but it does tell you the condition of the motor.

No sound (no works in the life of the person) tell you that the motor is not running, (dead faith)

But you dont fix the car's motor by simply turning up the radio or by making a louder noise, rather when you get the motor running the correct sound will naturally come from this at the same time.

The running motor will "alone" drive the car, but the running motor is never alone, (there is always sound with it)

Just as we are saved by Grace though faith alone, ...but such faith is never alone.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post---Then the question remains for orthodox Christians--can one obtain salvation through dead faith?


James 2:20---King James Version (KJV)


20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

I have often said--one must distinguish between orthodox Christianity and the true Christianity of the first century church, and found within the Biblical NT.


While you are dead in your sins, God will reach out to you....
Each person is saved by Grace though faith....not by works...

Agreed--but how does that somehow cancel out the fact the scriptures have God giving His grace to those who obey Him? We are not saved by faith either--but how does that somehow annul the fact faith without works is dead? Alan--do you believe one is saved through dead faith?

thus you never have to worry that you have lacked in this or that work or project , as if you had to earn your salvation.

Is this an example of one earning salvation?


1 John 1:7---King James Version (KJV)


7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.


IOW--are you attempting to convey the point--if God gives His grace to those who walk in His light--then that is earning grace?


The good news is that there is NO heavy lifting to being saved, for the Lord has done all the work...

"But Alan, is there no work by the person needed to be saved?"....None!, save the work of having faith in the completed work of the cross of Christ.

How do you explain the fact that all will be judged according to works--after this life--and that for life or ****ation?


John 5:28-29---King James Version (KJV)


28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation.



Thus we are not saved by the fulfilling of works,

We are saved by God's grace--and if the scriptures are true--that saving grace goes to those who obey God:


Hebrews 5:9----King James Version (KJV)

9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;


but rather we are saved by Grace though faith, and out of our faith comes works...

Is that dead faith you refer to here?


James 2:20---King James Version (KJV)


20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

[Billyray]

Agreed--but how does that somehow cancel out the fact the scriptures have God giving His grace to those who obey Him? We are not saved by faith either--but how does that somehow annul the fact faith without works is dead? Alan--do you believe one is saved through dead faith?

The scriptures clearly teach that we are saved when we place our faith in Christ and not by works. You are a false teacher and you will be held accountable for spreading your false teachings and leading people away from the true teachings of the Bible.

[Libby]

Then the question remains for orthodox Christians--can one obtain salvation through dead faith?


James 2:20---King James Version (KJV)


20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

I have often said--one must distinguish between orthodox Christianity and the true Christianity of the first century church, and found within the Biblical NT.

I don't believe one can obtain salvation through "dead faith" (which would be no faith at all). But, IMHO, it's very clear that our works do not contribute towards salvation. We are "saved" the very moment we put our faith in him...which then allows him to work through us. The works are his and we should give him the credit.

"for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure." Philippians 2:13

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post---Then the question remains for orthodox Christians--can one obtain salvation through dead faith?


James 2:20---King James Version (KJV)


20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

I have often said--one must distinguish between orthodox Christianity and the true Christianity of the first century church, and found within the Biblical NT.


I don't believe one can obtain salvation through "dead faith" (which would be no faith at all). But, IMHO, it's very clear that our works do not contribute towards salvation.

I suppose you will have to forgive me, Libby--those two statements cannot exist together, IMO. IE--if you believe one cannot obtain salvation through "dead faith"--then what are you adding to that faith in order that it won't be dead faith? If it is the absence of works that renders it dead faith---then what does one believe that is necessary for faith to be a living faith?

If it is works--then one brings works into a contributing factor in salvation.


We are "saved" the very moment we put our faith in him...

By dead faith?


which then allows him to work through us.

So--first, one is save by dead faith--and then the works? How can you agree with the statement that dead faith cannot bring God's grace unto salvation--then construct a scenario that has one saved without works? Either faith without works is dead or it is not. If faith without works is dead--and you believe one cannot obtain salvation by dead faith--then you can't then proceed to construct a model where one is saved without works.


The works are his and we should give him the credit. "for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure." Philippians 2:13

How does that annul the fact that faith without works is dead? God does not judge Himself when He judges every man according to works:


Matthew 16:27---King James Version (KJV)


27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

[dberrie2000]

The scriptures clearly teach that we are saved when we place our faith in Christ and not by works. You are a false teacher and you will be held accountable for spreading your false teachings and leading people away from the true teachings of the Bible.


Are these the ones which placed their faith in Christ?


Acts 2:38-42---King James Version (KJV)


38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.

41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

Did God extend His grace of the forgiveness of sins to those who obeyed Him--and repented and were baptized? Does this scripture teach forgiveness of sins before or after the repentance and water baptism?

[Billyray]

Did God extend His grace of the forgiveness of sins to those who obeyed Him--and repented and were baptized? Does this scripture teach forgiveness of sins before or after the repentance and water baptism?

Forgiveness of sins comes at time of conversion (repentance and faith) NOT as a result of our works. Works then proceed as a natural result of those who have faith and are regenerated.

[Libby]

I suppose you will have to forgive me, Libby--those two statements cannot exist together, IMO. IE--if you believe one cannot obtain salvation through "dead faith"--then what are you adding to that faith in order that it won't be dead faith? If it is the absence of works that renders it dead faith---then what does one believe that is necessary for faith to be a living faith?

If it is works--then one brings works into a contributing factor in salvation.

No forgiveness necessary, db...just a friendly conversation. :)

I know "faith without works is dead" is very big in LDS theology. But, when you really put all of this in the context of the rest of the Bible, especially the New Testament, there are many indicators that the "work" spoken of, in that verse and many others, is God's work ...that is, God working through us, not our own personal work.

By grace through faith (not of personal works) is the saving principle. You could say faith activates/allows God to work through us. That work is the tangible evidence of faith in Christ, which is our salvation.

Dead faith is really no faith and thus no tangible evidence of that faith. I think that's all that verse really means. What it most definitely doesn't mean, is that we have to do all kinds of special works in order to be saved. Just faith in Jesus Christ.

The first time I heard that, coming from a Mormon perspective, it stopped me dead in my tracks. It was so amazing to me that it was that simple....I remember saying, to the person who told me that....is that all? That seems way to simple...it can't be that easy! :) But, something deep inside of me told me it really was that simple...that easy. We only have to trust in him, repent and turn our life over to him. He will do the rest.

Romans 5:1 "Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ."

[dberrie2000]

Dead faith is really no faith and thus no tangible evidence of that faith. I think that's all that verse really means. What it most definitely doesn't mean, is that we have to do all kinds of special works in order to be saved. Just faith in Jesus Christ.

Are you saying that repentance and water baptism is not special works?

Acts 2:38 (King James Version)


38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Or are you saying that repentance and water baptism is not necessary in order to be saved?

If all that is needed to be saved is faith--would dead faith do?

James 2:20---King James Version (KJV)


20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

If your answer is no--then what works would you add to faith so it would not be dead faith? Are they "special works"?

[Billyray]

Are you saying that repentance and water baptism is not special works?

A person is saved when he is converted (repentance and faith), works do not contribute for salvation. We are all commanded to be baptized and baptism is a work.

[Libby]

Are you saying that repentance and water baptism is not special works?

Acts 2:38 (King James Version)


38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Or are you saying that repentance and water baptism is not necessary in order to be saved?

If all that is needed to be saved is faith--would dead faith do?

James 2:20---King James Version (KJV)


20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

If your answer is no--then what works would you add to faith so it would not be dead faith? Are they "special works"?

Trusting in Jesus Christ, putting our faith in him, having his actual Spirit dwelling within, will lead us to baptism and other good works. But, it is his work in us and through us, that makes our faith alive. He cannot work through us, unless we first put our faith/trust in him. His working through us is an indication of salvation, an indication of living faith (not dead)...but it is not what saves us. It is the faith in him that saves.

Galatians 2:16

Yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post---Are you saying that repentance and water baptism is not special works?

Acts 2:38 (King James Version)


38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Or are you saying that repentance and water baptism is not necessary in order to be saved?

If all that is needed to be saved is faith--would dead faith do?

James 2:20---King James Version (KJV)


20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

If your answer is no--then what works would you add to faith so it would not be dead faith? Are they "special works"?


Trusting in Jesus Christ, putting our faith in him, having his actual Spirit dwelling within, will lead us to baptism and other good works.

I agree--but that still leaves the elephant in the room. How does faith leading us to do good works somehow cancel out the scriptures that state God gives His salvational grace to those who obey Him?


But, it is his work in us and through us, that makes our faith alive. He cannot work through us, unless we first put our faith/trust in him.

I agree--but how does that negate the fact the scriptures have God's salvational grace of the remission of sins going to those who repent and are baptized?


His working through us is an indication of salvation, an indication of living faith (not dead)...but it is not what saves us. It is the faith in him that saves.

The LDS believe it is God's grace that saves us--not our faith.


Galatians 2:16

Yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.

OK--Paul didn't believe that the Mosaic law could save one. And? How does that annul the fact the scriptures have God's salvational grace going to those who obey Him?

Hebrews 5:9----King James Version (KJV)

9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

[Billyray]

How does faith leading us to do good works somehow cancel out the scriptures that state God gives His salvational grace to those who obey Him?
If a person is already saved when he places his trust in Christ, why do you believe that the person needs to be saved twice?

[Billyray]

OK--Paul didn't believe that the Mosaic law could save one.
But Paul clearly taught that IF a person obeyed the law perfectly he would be justied by the law. I am suprised that you are denying this fact since this is spoken about in one of the sections of Romans that you repeatedly quote. If seems that you have a case of severe selective comprehension.

[dberrie2000]

Billyray----Galatians 2:16---Yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.


dberrie----OK--Paul didn't believe that the Mosaic law could save one. And? How does that annul the fact the scriptures have God's salvational grace going to those who obey Him?

Hebrews 5:9----King James Version (KJV)

9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;


But Paul clearly taught that IF a person obeyed the law perfectly he would be justied by the law.

Paul taught there was no salvation under the Mosaic Law:


Hebrews 10:4---King James Version (KJV)


4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

[Billyray]

Paul taught there was no salvation under the Mosaic Law:


Hebrews 10:4---King James Version (KJV)


4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
This verse doesn't say anything about not being saved/justified by obedience to the law.

[Libby]

I agree--but that still leaves the elephant in the room. How does faith leading us to do good works somehow cancel out the scriptures that state God gives His salvational grace to those who obey Him?



I agree--but how does that negate the fact the scriptures have God's salvational grace of the remission of sins going to those who repent and are baptized?



The LDS believe it is God's grace that saves us--not our faith.



OK--Paul didn't believe that the Mosaic law could save one. And? How does that annul the fact the scriptures have God's salvational grace going to those who obey Him?

Hebrews 5:9----King James Version (KJV)

9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Sorry, I kind of dropped the ball, on this thread, db.

I want to say that I understand why there is so much controversy over this subject, as there are some verses that can "appear" very contradictory...especially one in James that says we are "justified by works". (James 2:24 "You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone"). That one always confused me, when I was trying to digest the meaning of "faith alone".

But, I would say, in the larger picture, that "grace/faith alone" is really what Paul and others were teaching, because there is such a big emphasis on it...and many, many verses that say this outright...many more than those that mention works. James 2:24 is the only one I can think of that actually mentions works in the same sentence as "justification".

[alanmolstad]

Sorry, I kind of dropped the ball, on this thread, db.

".

Im more a weekend poster here....during the week Im likely on the road or just too darn tired...

[Libby]

I am retired, but seems like I still get very busy, sometimes.

[dberrie2000]

But, I would say, in the larger picture, that "grace/faith alone" is really what Paul and others were teaching, because there is such a big emphasis on it..

Libby--I have seen many make this claim, when, in fact--there is only one mention of "faith alone" found in any translation the faith alone would use--and it is found here:


James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)


24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.


Libby--one might rely on some arguments from the Biblical text--but that is not one of them. The claim of finding "faith alone" commonly mentioned or emphasized in the Bible will fail.

[Billyray]

Libby--I have seen many make this claim, when, in fact--there is only one mention of "faith alone" found in any translation the faith alone would use--and it is found here:

You know with absolute certainty that the statement you just made is not true.

Joseph Smith Translation of the Bible
Romans 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith alone without the deeds of the law.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post---Libby--I have seen many make this claim, when, in fact--there is only one mention of "faith alone" found in any translation the faith alone would use--and it is found here:

James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)


24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.


Libby--one might rely on some arguments from the Biblical text--but that is not one of them. The claim of finding "faith alone" commonly mentioned or emphasized in the Bible will fail.




You know with absolute certainty that the statement you just made is not true.

Joseph Smith Translation of the Bible
Romans 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith alone without the deeds of the law.

Since when have the faith alone started using the JST?

"there is only one mention of "faith alone" found in any translation the faith alone would use"

[Billyray]

"there is only one mention of "faith alone" found in any translation the faith alone would use"
I have a JST at home, in fact it is about 3 feet from my hand as I speak AND I just used a verse in the JST. So your prior statement was absolutely false and you know it.

[dberrie2000]

I have a JST at home, in fact it is about 3 feet from my hand as I speak AND I just used a verse in the JST. So your prior statement was absolutely false and you know it.

The only time a faith alone would use a JST is in a negative. No faith alone use the JST as their translation. The fact remains the same--the only time "faith alone" is found in any translation the faith alone recognize as legitimate is this one:


James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)


24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.


Anathema to the faith alone theology.

[Libby]

DB, I think this explanation by Matt Slick is really pretty good, on this subject. (Matt is not usually someone I turn to for examples and explanations, but on this he has done a good ***). He even explains James 2:24.


James 2:24, not by faith alone

The scriptures clearly teach that we are saved (justified) by faith in Christ and what He has done on the cross. This faith alone saves us. However, we cannot stop here without addressing what James says in James 2:24, "You see that a man is justified by works, and not by faith alone."

There is no contradiction. All you need to do is look at the context. James chapter 2 has 26 verses: Verses 1-7 instruct us not to show favoritism. Verses 8-13 are comments on the Law. Verses 14-26 are about the relationship between faith and works.

James begins this section by using the example of someone who says he has faith but has no works, "What use is it, my brethren, if a man says he has faith, but he has no works? Can that faith save him?" (James 2:14). In other words, James is addressing the issue of a dead faith, a faith that is nothing more than a verbal pronouncement, a public confession of the mind, and is not heart-felt. It is empty of life and action. He begins with the negative and demonstrates what an empty faith is (verses 15-17, words without actions). Then he shows that type of faith isn't any different from the faith of demons (verse 19). Finally, he gives examples of living faith that has words followed by actions. Works follow true faith and demonstrate that faith to our fellow man, but not to God. James writes of Abraham and Rahab as examples of people who demonstrated their faith by their deeds.

In brief, James is examining two kinds of faith: one that leads to godly works and one that does not. One is true, and the other is false. One is dead, the other alive; hence, "Faith without works is dead," (James 2:20). But, he is not contradicting the verses above that say salvation/justification is by faith alone.

[Libby]

If we see that the scriptures exclude works in any form as a means of our salvation, then logically, we are saved by faith alone. Let's take a look at what the Bible says about faith and works. Then, afterwards, we will tackle James' statement about "faith alone".

Rom. 3:28-30, "For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. 29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one."
Rom. 4:5, "But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness,"
Rom. 5:1, "therefore having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,"
Rom. 9:30, "What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith."
Rom. 10:4, "For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes."
Rom. 11:6, "But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace."
Gal. 2:16, "nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified."
Gal. 2:21, I do not nullify the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly.
Gal. 3:5-6, "Does He then, who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? 6Even so Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness."
Gal. 3:24, "Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, that we may be justified by faith."
Eph. 2:8-9, "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God. 9Not by works, lest any man should boast."
Phil. 3:9, "and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith."

Again, works/Law is contrasted with faith repeatedly and we are told that we are not justified by works in any way. Therefore, we are made right with God by faith, not by faith and our works; hence, faith alone.

http://carm.org/are-we-saved-faith-alone-or-do-we-need-works-too

[RealFakeHair]

[QUOTE=Libby;144603][
Gal. 2:16, "nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified."
OH shoot! So that does it, dberrie aint goin to be judged by the Law ie works, now what?

[dberrie2000]

DB, I think this explanation by Matt Slick is really pretty good, on this subject. (Matt is not usually someone I turn to for examples and explanations, but on this he has done a good ***). He even explains James 2:24.

James 2:24, not by faith alone

The scriptures clearly teach that we are saved (justified) by faith in Christ and what He has done on the cross. This faith alone saves us. However, we cannot stop here without addressing what James says in James 2:24, "You see that a man is justified by works, and not by faith alone."

There is no contradiction. All you need to do is look at the context. James chapter 2 has 26 verses: Verses 1-7 instruct us not to show favoritism. Verses 8-13 are comments on the Law. Verses 14-26 are about the relationship between faith and works.

James begins this section by using the example of someone who says he has faith but has no works, "What use is it, my brethren, if a man says he has faith, but he has no works? Can that faith save him?" (James 2:14). In other words, James is addressing the issue of a dead faith, a faith that is nothing more than a verbal pronouncement, a public confession of the mind, and is not heart-felt. It is empty of life and action. He begins with the negative and demonstrates what an empty faith is (verses 15-17, words without actions). Then he shows that type of faith isn't any different from the faith of demons (verse 19). Finally, he gives examples of living faith that has words followed by actions. Works follow true faith and demonstrate that faith to our fellow man, but not to God. James writes of Abraham and Rahab as examples of people who demonstrated their faith by their deeds.

In brief, James is examining two kinds of faith: one that leads to godly works and one that does not. One is true, and the other is false. One is dead, the other alive; hence, "Faith without works is dead," (James 2:20). But, he is not contradicting the verses above that say salvation/justification is by faith alone.

Libby--I see a panacea of contradictions. Could you explain how a dead faith, as Matt describes,---- a dead faith, a faith that is nothing more than a verbal pronouncement, --can save one? That is his claim--right?

"This faith alone saves us."

[Billyray]

Libby--I see a panacea of contradictions. Could you explain how a dead faith, as Matt describes,---- a dead faith, a faith that is nothing more than a verbal pronouncement, --can save one? That is his claim--right?

"This faith alone saves us."
Dead faith = no faith. So it is easy to see that a person who doesn't have faith will not be saved.

[Libby]

Libby--I see a panacea of contradictions. Could you explain how a dead faith, as Matt describes,---- a dead faith, a faith that is nothing more than a verbal pronouncement, --can save one? That is his claim--right?

"This faith alone saves us."

He is saying that a "dead faith" does not save. Dead faith is "no faith". No contradictions, that I can see...

[dberrie2000]

He is saying that a "dead faith" does not save.

You did read his opening sentence?

"The scriptures clearly teach that we are saved (justified) by faith in Christ and what He has done on the cross. This faith alone saves us. "


Dead faith is "no faith". No contradictions, that I can see...


James 2:20---King James Version (KJV)


20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?


Libby--dead faith is faith without works. You do realize that what Matt did in his opening sentence---he separated faith from any works--and pronounced we are saved by this "faith alone"--faith apart from our works.


James 2:24----New American Standard Bible (NASB)


24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

[Billyray]

You did read his opening sentence?

"The scriptures clearly teach that we are saved (justified) by faith in Christ and what He has done on the cross. This faith alone saves us. "

Those who come to Christ and place their trust in Him to save them are justified/saved. Works naturally follow those who are saved, but the works do not contribute for salvation rather they are simple the natural result of those who are saved. The thief on the cross is a perfect example of a person who is saved and the basis of his salvation was faith and not works. Had the thief lived works would have naturally flowed because he was saved.

[Libby]

You did read his opening sentence?

"The scriptures clearly teach that we are saved (justified) by faith in Christ and what He has done on the cross. This faith alone saves us. "




James 2:20---King James Version (KJV)


20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?


Libby--dead faith is faith without works. You do realize that what Matt did in his opening sentence---he separated faith from any works--and pronounced we are saved by this "faith alone"--faith apart from our works.


James 2:24----New American Standard Bible (NASB)


24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.


DB, yes, and he gave numerous verses that say exactly that...we are saved by grace through faith, not by works.

You are hanging much too much on this one verse in James. Not saying to throw it out, but just to put it in context with the rest of the teachings.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View PostYou did read his opening sentence?

"The scriptures clearly teach that we are saved (justified) by faith in Christ and what He has done on the cross. This faith alone saves us. "




James 2:20---King James Version (KJV)


20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?


Libby--dead faith is faith without works. You do realize that what Matt did in his opening sentence---he separated faith from any works--and pronounced we are saved by this "faith alone"--faith apart from our works.


James 2:24----New American Standard Bible (NASB)


24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.


DB, yes, and he gave numerous verses that say exactly that...we are saved by grace through faith, not by works.

You are hanging much too much on this one verse in James. Not saying to throw it out, but just to put it in context with the rest of the teachings.

Libby--it's not the verses in James that should bother one--it's the statement of Matt Slick---

"James begins this section by using the example of someone who says he has faith but has no works, "What use is it, my brethren, if a man says he has faith, but he has no works? Can that faith save him?" (James 2:14). In other words, James is addressing the issue of a dead faith, a faith that is nothing more than a verbal pronouncement, "

You realize that is the very faith Matt is saying that saves us?

"The scriptures clearly teach that we are saved (justified) by faith in Christ and what He has done on the cross. This faith alone saves us. "

Matt's "faith alone"--and a faith that is nothing more than a verbal pronouncement, " is one and the same.

[James Banta]

[QUOTE=dberrie2000;144816]

You did read the chapter or are you pulling these p***age out of context not understanding what James is really teaching?

I agree that
"The scriptures clearly teach that we are saved (justified) by faith in Christ and what He has done on the cross. This faith alone saves us. "
This faith without any works of righteousness has saving power. But if you are going to use James 2 to try and prove that salvation is by works and not by faith then you have to BELIEVE ALL OF James 2.. But you want to cast James 2 10 out because it doesn't match up with your perversions of the Gospel of Christ. You either obey the whole law or admit that you have no obedience to any of the Law of God..

Now let's look at James 2 in the context of the whole of the New Testament.. Jesus taught clearly that though believing in Him a person receives everlasting life (John 3:16).. That believers in Him though they are dead yet shall they live, and those who lives and believe in Him will never die (John 11:25-26). Then there is the Holy Spirit through the Apostle Paul teaching us that it is by His grace that salvation is made available to us and not by good works (Eph 2:8-9). He teaches us that salvation is not by both faith and works but one or the other (Romans 11:6)..

Going back again to James 2, to see it is conforms to these other p***ages and look at James 2:18 and see that good works manifest saving faith to those of us that can't see the hearts of other people.. Then we look at the works James lists as the works a believe should be exhibiting. In verses 1-9 we are taught NOT TO HOLD OR REFUSE TO HOLD RESPECT FOR OTHER BECAUSE OF THEIR WEALTH OR LACK THEREOF. Look at the leadership of the LDS church and tell me that it holds to that commandment.. All the men that call themselves Elder and accept respect from the membership are RICH as compared to the membership as a whole..

In verses 10-12 we are again commanded to live the perfect life and yet the realization is there that sin will keep is is a fallen state before a Holy God, and that in sinning we are all guilty before God.. In verses 13-26 teaches us that sitting on our backsides and doing nothing shows that we have no faith at all. For a faith that is not alive is not faith at all. It is clearly nothing but mistrust, and doubt.. But look at verse 19 especially.. This tells us that we can't even say we have faith if we don't have faith in God at least as much as the devils do.. We are taught here that even they know that God is one, and they tremble.. But what does the prophet of mormonism teach? The prophet that said he spoke to God, the prophet that identified all other churches as wrong and all their teachers as corrupt. He said that there are three Gods!!!! (lo and behold! we have three Gods anyhow, and they are plural: and who can contradict it! History of the Church Vol. 6, p. 473).. This show without the use of any "antimormonism" references that Smith didn't even teach as much as the devils know.. That God is ONE.. without that one main support of faith what good is faith, what good are works.. It is all for naught, It is the wide road to destruction. It's only reward is DEATH and the Lake of Fire.. This is why I am here, not to lead you out of mormonism. It is not my work to tell you where to go to church.. That doesn't matter.. What I am here for is to lead you away from false gods that has been presented to you in a way that you see them as true gods, and through God's word show you the one and only True and living God.. Go to any church you want to attend. It makes no difference. I will allow the Holy Spirit to direct you to where He can best use you. Just get these false teaching out of your heart and mind that God became a God. That He isn't unique, that there are others like Him.. That the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit aren't the one and only being of God. That through Faith plus nothing we can't receive the best of God's salvation. That He didn't do it all and there is more we need than to accept His grace through a Faith that He provides (Mark 9:24)..

So be a mormon if you must, just remember to become a child of God though Faith in Jesus and know that you HAVE eternal life because of His works and not your own. Then step out and show that living faith by not showing preference for the rich over the poor, extending real tangible help to the naked, and the hungry, always remembering to love our neighbors as ourselves, believing that God is one. Then I will see your works and know that you are His. Until that day you reside with those that clung to Moses above the Law of Liberty which is to BELIEVE and to LOVE and are children of the devil (JOHN 8:440 remember they taught strict obedience just like you have been doing. IHS jim

[dberrie2000]

You did read his opening sentence?

"The scriptures clearly teach that we are saved (justified) by faith in Christ and what He has done on the cross. This faith alone saves us. "


James Banta----If you are going to use James 2 to try and prove that salvation is by works and not by faith then you have to BELIEVE ALL OF James 2..

I don't believe salvation is either by faith or by works. I believe it is by God's grace--which the scriptures show goes to those who obey Him:


Hebrews 5:9----King James Version (KJV)


9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

[Libby]

I don't believe salvation is either by faith or by works. I believe it is by God's grace--which the scriptures show goes to those who obey Him:


Hebrews 5:9----King James Version (KJV)


9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;


I agree with you about being saved by grace.....through faith.

All of those who "obey him" have faith or they wouldn't obey him. So, it is "by grace through faith" that obedience comes. Obedience is the "fruit"...but the "work" has nothing to do with salvation. It is the fruits of salvation.

Ephesians 2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

[dberrie2000]

I agree with you about being saved by grace.....through faith.

All of those who "obey him" have faith or they wouldn't obey him. So, it is "by grace through faith" that obedience comes.

It states that we are saved by grace through faith--not that is where obedience comes from. And we are not saved by faith either. We are saved by GRACE through faith.

The question is--is that faith alone, or dead faith that this grace flows through--or faith that is combined with works?

Libby--please identify when this grace flows through faith--before the works--or after works are combined with faith.

If it is before--then we are saved through dead faith:

James 2:20---King James Version (KJV)


20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?


If it is after--then we are saved by faith other than dead faith.

[Billyray]

It states that we are saved by grace through faith--not that is where obedience comes from. And we are not saved by faith either. We are saved by GRACE through faith.

The question is--is that faith alone, or dead faith that this grace flows through--or faith that is combined with works?

Libby--please identify when this grace flows through faith--before the works--or after works are combined with faith.

If it is before--then we are saved through dead faith:

James 2:20---King James Version (KJV)


20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?


If it is after--then we are saved by faith other than dead faith.
You falsely claimed on CARM that Christians don't use the Bible when discussing with Mormons. You know that is an absolutely false claim. So I guess what you want is for us to respond to you in the same way that you post to us. I will give you what you want then.

Romans 4:5 5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post---It states that we are saved by grace through faith--not that is where obedience comes from. And we are not saved by faith either. We are saved by GRACE through faith.

The question is--is that faith alone, or dead faith that this grace flows through--or faith that is combined with works?

Libby--please identify when this grace flows through faith--before the works--or after works are combined with faith.

If it is before--then we are saved through dead faith:

James 2:20---King James Version (KJV)


20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?


If it is after--then we are saved by faith other than dead faith.


You falsely claimed on CARM that Christians don't use the Bible when discussing with Mormons. You know that is an absolutely false claim.

I stated they do not use the Bible very often--as they don't here. Probably less than 50%--and maybe less than 30%--of the posts here by non-LDS contain Biblical quotes. Possibly even less on the CARM forum.


So I guess what you want is for us to respond to you in the same way that you post to us. I will give you what you want then.

Romans 4:5 5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,

That's the same one you always post to. I will tell you what--I'm going to tally up this and find the truth--if I am wrong--I will post it.

[Billyray]

I stated they do not use the Bible very often--as they don't here. Probably less than 50%--and maybe less than 30%--of the posts here by non-LDS contain Biblical quotes. Possibly even less on the CARM forum.

Revelation 21:8 But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”

[Libby]

It states that we are saved by grace through faith--not that is where obedience comes from. And we are not saved by faith either. We are saved by GRACE through faith.

The question is--is that faith alone, or dead faith that this grace flows through--or faith that is combined with works?

Libby--please identify when this grace flows through faith--before the works--or after works are combined with faith.

If it is before--then we are saved through dead faith:

James 2:20---King James Version (KJV)


20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?


If it is after--then we are saved by faith other than dead faith.

Living faith is simply a real trust in Jesus Christ...not just a profession of it, but real/true faith that is ready and willing to obey.

[Billyray]

That's the same one you always post to. I will tell you what--I'm going to tally up this and find the truth--if I am wrong--I will post it.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,

[Libby]

I didn't realize this subject was being discussed on several threads here already.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post---It states that we are saved by grace through faith--not that is where obedience comes from. And we are not saved by faith either. We are saved by GRACE through faith.

The question is--is that faith alone, or dead faith that this grace flows through--or faith that is combined with works?

Libby--please identify when this grace flows through faith--before the works--or after works are combined with faith.

If it is before--then we are saved through dead faith:

James 2:20---King James Version (KJV)


20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?


If it is after--then we are saved by faith other than dead faith.


Living faith is simply a real trust in Jesus Christ...not just a profession of it, but real/true faith that is ready and willing to obey.

The question being--can we be saved through dead faith?

[Libby]

The question being--can we be saved through dead faith?

No, of course, not. That's the whole point.

You asked: "Libby--please identify when this grace flows through faith--before the works--or after works are combined with faith."

Before, just as soon as we sincerely put our faith in Jesus Christ and show "willingness" to obey.

You can have faith that is open to "works", but hasn't yet had to opportunity to do anything.

Dead faith is just a profession of faith without that willingness to actually follow and obey.

[Billyray]

The question being--can we be saved through dead faith?

John 3

16*For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

18*He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

[Billyray]

The question being--can we be saved through dead faith?
14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them?

[Billyray]

I stated they do not use the Bible very often--as they don't here. Probably less than 50%--and maybe less than 30%--of the posts here by non-LDS contain Biblical quotes. Possibly even less on the CARM forum.

Here is your exact quotation with the reference so it complies with the rules of this board as noted "All quotations must include the complete citation."


[CARM "Mormon Double Standards" post #2--Dberrie2000]

Because what is contained in the Bible is also found in the LDS church. Do you have any Biblical material that you feel violates that? To the contrary--the faith alone have very little in common with the Bible.

Theo--have you ever noticed that most of the posters here that are anti-LDS use the Bible very little? Check my posts--count the Biblical quotes--and then check the responses I receive, and count their Biblical quotes--yours included. This forum, especially those of the anti-LDS ilk--use the Bible very sparingly. Why? Could you explain that to us?

Theo--I use the Bible to back my claims--and anyone who is interested to investigate that claim will find it true. You do not--not very often. You and those of this form, like to dig their material from the dirt pits--or make accusations that are nothing but straw man tactics, as yours is here.

Theo--where are your Biblical scriptures?

[Billyray]

I don't believe salvation is either by faith or by works. I believe it is by God's grace--which the scriptures show goes to those who obey Him:

***us 3
4 But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, 5 he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit,

[dberrie2000]

***us 3
4 But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, 5 he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit,

***us3:5--"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;"



http://www.truthmagazine.com/archive...GOT034331.html


What is the "washing of regeneration" by which he saved us? We have collected the comments of various outstanding Bible scholars from a diversity of religious groups. These men often differ on some of the details in this p***age, but they all agree as to what the "washing of regeneration" is. We do not cite them as our authority, but ask that you weigh their arguments carefully.

John Wesley: "Sanctification, expressed by the laver of regeneration (that is, baptism, the thing signified, as well as the outward sign), and the renewal of the Holy Ghost, which purifies the soul, as water cleanses the body, and renews it in the whole image of God" (One Volume New Testament Commentary, Wesley, Clarke, Henry, et. al.).


Cambridge Greek Testament (J.H. Bernard): "That the 'washing of regeneration' is the Water of Baptism is undoubted; see Eph. 5:26 . . . It is the instrument (dia) of salvation (cp. 1 Pet. 3:21 . . . ), the means, that is, through which we are placed in a 'state of salvation,' in union with the mystical Body of Christ; cp. Gal. 3:27. . ."

The New Bible Commentary (A.M. Stibbs): "In status this salvation is made ours through the outward seal of baptism; in vital experience it comes through the inner quickening by the Spirit."

The Pulpit Commentary (A.C. Hervey): "Here we have the means through or by which God's mercy saves us . . . (regeneration) therefore, very fitly describes the new birth in holy baptism, when the believer is put into possession of a new spiritual life, a new nature, and a new inheritance of glory. And the laver of baptism is called 'laver of regeneration,' because it is the ordained means by or through which regeneration is obtained."

William Hendriksen: "It is clear from such p***ages as John 3:3,5 and especially Ephesians 5:26 (cf. Heb. 10:22) that this 'washing of regeneration and renewing' stand in some relation to the rite of baptism. Undoubtedly, also here in ***us 3:5 there is an implied reference to this sacrament" (New Testament Commentary).

Albert Barnes: "The word (washing) itself would naturally be understood as referring to baptism (comp. Notes on Acts 22:16), which was regarded as the emblem of washing away sins, or of cleansing from them" (Barnes' Notes on the New Testament).

Henry Alford: "Observe, there is here no figure: the words are literal: Baptism is taken as in all its completion, the outward visible sign accompanied by the inward spiritual grace; and as thus complete, it not only represents, but is the new birth." At Hebrews 10:22, Alford says the clause having our body washed with pure water "refers directly to Christian baptism" and cites washing of water (Eph. 5:26) and washing of regeneration (***. 3:5) as "****ogous expressions" (The Greek New Testament).

James Macknight: "Through the bath of regeneration: through baptism; called 'the bath of regeneration,' not because any change in the nature of the baptized person is produced by baptism, but because it is an emblem of the purification of his soul from sin. . . " (Apostolical Epistles).

G.R. Beasley-Murray: Beasley-Murray said in 1962 "of all the commentators who have written on these Epistles [1 Timothy, 2 Timothy, ***us], I can find but one who denies" that this refers to baptism. He says, "All things considered, it requires a real hardiness of spirit to refuse the weight of this evidence. . . " (Baptism, pp. 209, 210). I have come across one additional more recent commentator who denies that baptism is under consideration.

What is the "washing of regeneration" by which he saved us? These commentators all agree and most of them cite biblical evidence to back up their position. The "washing of regeneration" in ***us 3:5 is baptism. In the chart below we have replaced the phrase "washing of regeneration" with the word baptism. This is proper since this is the meaning of the phrase.



Where does this leave faith alone theology? They carefully eliminate water baptism from anything salvational. But yet, if the testimonies of Christ, the Early Church Fathers, and the scholars are true--then it is the quite attached to regeneration.

[Billyray]

***us3:5--"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;"



http://www.truthmagazine.com/archive...GOT034331.html


What is the "washing of regeneration" by which he saved us? We have collected the comments of various outstanding Bible scholars from a diversity of religious groups. These men often differ on some of the details in this p***age, but they all agree as to what the "washing of regeneration" is. We do not cite them as our authority, but ask that you weigh their arguments carefully.

John Wesley: "Sanctification, expressed by the laver of regeneration (that is, baptism, the thing signified, as well as the outward sign), and the renewal of the Holy Ghost, which purifies the soul, as water cleanses the body, and renews it in the whole image of God" (One Volume New Testament Commentary, Wesley, Clarke, Henry, et. al.).


Cambridge Greek Testament (J.H. Bernard): "That the 'washing of regeneration' is the Water of Baptism is undoubted; see Eph. 5:26 . . . It is the instrument (dia) of salvation (cp. 1 Pet. 3:21 . . . ), the means, that is, through which we are placed in a 'state of salvation,' in union with the mystical Body of Christ; cp. Gal. 3:27. . ."

The New Bible Commentary (A.M. Stibbs): "In status this salvation is made ours through the outward seal of baptism; in vital experience it comes through the inner quickening by the Spirit."

The Pulpit Commentary (A.C. Hervey): "Here we have the means through or by which God's mercy saves us . . . (regeneration) therefore, very fitly describes the new birth in holy baptism, when the believer is put into possession of a new spiritual life, a new nature, and a new inheritance of glory. And the laver of baptism is called 'laver of regeneration,' because it is the ordained means by or through which regeneration is obtained."

William Hendriksen: "It is clear from such p***ages as John 3:3,5 and especially Ephesians 5:26 (cf. Heb. 10:22) that this 'washing of regeneration and renewing' stand in some relation to the rite of baptism. Undoubtedly, also here in ***us 3:5 there is an implied reference to this sacrament" (New Testament Commentary).

Albert Barnes: "The word (washing) itself would naturally be understood as referring to baptism (comp. Notes on Acts 22:16), which was regarded as the emblem of washing away sins, or of cleansing from them" (Barnes' Notes on the New Testament).

Henry Alford: "Observe, there is here no figure: the words are literal: Baptism is taken as in all its completion, the outward visible sign accompanied by the inward spiritual grace; and as thus complete, it not only represents, but is the new birth." At Hebrews 10:22, Alford says the clause having our body washed with pure water "refers directly to Christian baptism" and cites washing of water (Eph. 5:26) and washing of regeneration (***. 3:5) as "****ogous expressions" (The Greek New Testament).

James Macknight: "Through the bath of regeneration: through baptism; called 'the bath of regeneration,' not because any change in the nature of the baptized person is produced by baptism, but because it is an emblem of the purification of his soul from sin. . . " (Apostolical Epistles).

G.R. Beasley-Murray: Beasley-Murray said in 1962 "of all the commentators who have written on these Epistles [1 Timothy, 2 Timothy, ***us], I can find but one who denies" that this refers to baptism. He says, "All things considered, it requires a real hardiness of spirit to refuse the weight of this evidence. . . " (Baptism, pp. 209, 210). I have come across one additional more recent commentator who denies that baptism is under consideration.

What is the "washing of regeneration" by which he saved us? These commentators all agree and most of them cite biblical evidence to back up their position. The "washing of regeneration" in ***us 3:5 is baptism. In the chart below we have replaced the phrase "washing of regeneration" with the word baptism. This is proper since this is the meaning of the phrase.



Where does this leave faith alone theology? They carefully eliminate water baptism from anythinsalvational. But yet, if the testimonies of Christ, the Early Church Fathers, and the scholars are true--then it is the quite attached to regeneration.
T i t u s 3
4 But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, 5 he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit,

[James Banta]

we can judge only by looking at the works of people and our own...this is because only God can see the heart...only God sees the true faith of any of us.

Haven't I showed you that works can be seen in many people that deny Jesus completely and totally? Again I point to the Gates Foundation. They do many wonderful works, do their are in the name of humanity not Jesus. You want to tell me that we see if a person is in Christ by their works and but I say that works are dead without a profession of faith.. If a person is doing good works, as Bill Gates does in the name of the false God of humanity, is that different than doing good works in the name of any other false God? IHS jim

[James Banta]

Seems like a lot of people would rather look at a person's beliefs. Personally, I don't think that's a very good indicator. We all, undoubtedly, hold some wrong beliefs. Doesn't mean we cannot have a relationship with Jesus Christ.

How can anyone have a relationship with God if they deny Him? We can have such a relationship with the God that revealed Himself as being One, or we can invent a god with whom to have a relationship. Mormonism has chosen to invent a god and deny the God that spoke to the prophets and revealed Himself. Their founder, their prophet has demanded that there are three Gods. They have yet to deny that teaching.. IHS jim

[James Banta]

I don't believe salvation is either by faith or by works. I believe it is by God's grace--which the scriptures show goes to those who obey Him:


Hebrews 5:9----King James Version (KJV)


9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;


I have asked you several times and I am NOT getting an answer.. Here I go again.. DO YOU OBEY HIM? WE ARE commanded TO BE PERFECT AS THE FATHER IN HEAVEN IS PERFECT. Are you obedient? Remember the Holy Spirit through the Apostle Paul teaches that if we say we have no sin the truth in not in us.. But if we ever sin we can't be perfect as the Father is perfect. We sin, He never has.. So how else can we meet that commandment short of being imputed with the righteousness of Jesus, and that by faith in Him? There is no other way! IHS jim

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post---I don't believe salvation is either by faith or by works. I believe it is by God's grace--which the scriptures show goes to those who obey Him:


Hebrews 5:9----King James Version (KJV)


9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;


I have asked you several times and I am NOT getting an answer.. Here I go again.. DO YOU OBEY HIM?

And I have asked you several times in return--what effect do you believe whether I obey or not--has on the truthfulness of the scriptures?

[James Banta]

And I have asked you several times in return--what effect do you believe whether I obey or not--has on the truthfulness of the scriptures?

I will be happy to answer you if you will answer me first, after all I have been asking this question for years.. After you answer I will answer your question, again. IHS jim

[Billyray]

And I have asked you several times in return--what effect do you believe whether I obey or not--has on the truthfulness of the scriptures?
1 John 1:8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.

[James Banta]

I agree with you about being saved by grace.....through faith.

All of those who "obey him" have faith or they wouldn't obey him. So, it is "by grace through faith" that obedience comes. Obedience is the "fruit"...but the "work" has nothing to do with salvation. It is the fruits of salvation.

Ephesians 2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

That is truth Libby.. Salvation is by grace through faith and NOT OF WORKS. By making anything obedience a requirement for God's grace these teachers of mormonism have proven that they are teaching another gospel and not the Gospel once receive by the Church from the Apostles.. By the authority of the scripture these are accursed of GOD (Gal 1:8-9), May they repent of this great sin and come to the peace that is in Christ Jesus.. IHS jim

[James Banta]

It states that we are saved by grace through faith--not that is where obedience comes from. And we are not saved by faith either. We are saved by GRACE through faith.

The question is--is that faith alone, or dead faith that this grace flows through--or faith that is combined with works?

Libby--please identify when this grace flows through faith--before the works--or after works are combined with faith.

If it is before--then we are saved through dead faith:

James 2:20---King James Version (KJV)


20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?


If it is after--then we are saved by faith other than dead faith.

I agree with that p***age. If we say we are saved and then sit down and not allow God to use us to do His good will among men we are not His. I accept that fact do you accept verse 10 as God's truth? Even if you keep the whole law except for one small point that you are guilty of breaking the whole law? It is in that same context after all.. IHS jim

[Billyray]

That is truth Libby.. Salvation is by grace through faith and NOT OF WORKS. By making anything obedience a requirement for God's grace these teachers of mormonism have proven that they are teaching another gospel and not the Gospel once receive by the Church from the Apostles..
That is absolutely true Jim. DB on the one hand claims salvation/exaltation is based on obedience to the commandments. Yet he still sins--along with every other lds member including his own prophet. By his own standard not a single lds member will be exalted.

[James Banta]

I will be happy to answer you if you will answer me first, after all I have been asking this question for years.. After you answer I will answer your question, again. IHS jim

I have to believe that if you were really obedient to all God's commandments that the Bible would be shown as a total fraud.. The Bible teaches that "All have sinned" (Romans 3:23). If that is true then there are times when you are NOT OBEDIENT.. The Bible teaches that "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." (1 John 1:8) If you say that you have kept all God's commandments you are deceiving yourself or the Bible is a lie.. Which is the most trustful you memory about the extent of your sin, or the word of God proclaiming your failure to the world? That answers your question. Now will you answer me? I have serious doubts that you will ever face the truth.. IHS jim

[James Banta]

That is absolutely true Jim. DB on the one hand claims salvation/exaltation is based on obedience to the commandments. Yet he still sins--along with every other lds member including his own prophet. By his own standard not a single lds member will be exalted.

THEY CAN'T even MAKE IT TO THE lowest division of their celestial kingdom.. Because of the teachings of Apostle James that they are so fond of quoting, by committing one sin they are guilty of breaking all of God's law (James 2:10).. So like us, they are guilty of murder, adultery, having other gods before Him, disrespecting parents, coveting, and all the other over 600 commandments God gave us in just the OT, and the over 1,000 commandments given in the NT. Most of this is unconfessed, and unrepented. Since no unclean thing can enter the Kingdom of God 100% of them will be ****ed to the telestial kingdom. Down with murderers and thieves and defilers for that is what the Lord in His word says we all are.. IHS jim

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post----It states that we are saved by grace through faith--not that is where obedience comes from. And we are not saved by faith either. We are saved by GRACE through faith.

The question is--is that faith alone, or dead faith that this grace flows through--or faith that is combined with works?

Libby--please identify when this grace flows through faith--before the works--or after works are combined with faith.

If it is before--then we are saved through dead faith:

James 2:20---King James Version (KJV)


20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?


If it is after--then we are saved by faith other than dead faith.


I agree with that p***age. If we say we are saved and then sit down and not allow God to use us to do His good will among men we are not His.

James--you connect works with salvation here. Can we not be His--and still be saved?

[Billyray]

James--you connect works with salvation here. Can we not be His--and still be saved?
Ephesians 2
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God
9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by James Banta View Post---I agree with that p***age. If we say we are saved and then sit down and not allow God to use us to do His good will among men we are not His.


Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post---James--you connect works with salvation here. Can we not be His--and still be saved?


Ephesians 2
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God
9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

Not by faith, not by works, not by trust, not by obedience, not by belief--but by grace. And that leaves but one question. Who does God's grace unto life go to?


Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)


9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

[Billyray]

Not by faith, not by works, not by trust, not by obedience, not by belief--but by grace.

Ephesians 2
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God
9 not by works, so that no one can boast.


Why should I bother giving you verses that you have not even read?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post---Not by faith, not by works, not by trust, not by obedience, not by belief--but by grace. And that leaves but one question. Who does God's grace unto life go to?


Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)

9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;



Ephesians 2
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God
9 not by works, so that no one can boast.


Why should I bother giving you verses that you have not even read?

That only begs the question--is that dead faith you are referring to?


James 2:20-26---King James Version (KJV)

20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

[Billyray]

That only begs the question--is that dead faith you are referring to?


Ephesians 2
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God
9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

What do these verses say about works contributing to our salvation?

[dberrie2000]

Ephesians 2
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God
9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

What do these verses say about works contributing to our salvation?


Again--is that faith referred to in Ephesians 2 ---dead faith?

James 2:20-26---King James Version (KJV)

20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

[Billyray]

Again--is that faith referred to in Ephesians 2 ---dead faith?

DB your are being deceptive by avoiding answering my question.

Ephesians 2
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God
9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

What do these verses say about works contributing to our salvation?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Billyray View Post----Ephesians 2
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God
9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

What do these verses say about works contributing to our salvation?


Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post---Again--is that faith referred to in Ephesians 2 ---dead faith?

James 2:20-26---King James Version (KJV)

20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.



DB your are being deceptive by avoiding answering my question.

Ephesians 2
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God
9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

What do these verses say about works contributing to our salvation?

Once again--is that dead faith you believe Ephesians is referring to? I need to know that before I can answer your question, as the scriptures make it clear that faith without works is dead. I believe you are referring to dead faith--right? If you are not--you have no argument--and the scriptures stand as is--faith without works is dead. Wherever one sees faith--they see obedience.

[James Banta]

Once again--is that dead faith you believe Ephesians is referring to? I need to know that before I can answer your question, as the scriptures make it clear that faith without works is dead. I believe you are referring to dead faith--right? If you are not--you have no argument--and the scriptures stand as is--faith without works is dead. Wherever one sees faith--they see obedience.

Why would God save us by a dead faith? Yet the p***age says clearly that we are saved by God's grace though Faith and NOT OF WORKS!. Then in verse 10 we are taught that after that salvation is given we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, the works which God has preordained to call us to.. So such a faith that walks in these ways God has chosen for salvation to come to us, is salvation though a dead faith? You need to reexamine your definition of what dead faith is according to James 2.. Is baptism listed in the p***age as part of the works James is looking for to identify a faith that works? Faith is the key that opens God grace. I agree that is must be a living faith.. But I will tell you right now that any work done to bring one to salvation is a boasting work.. And a boasting work has had it's reward:

Matthew 2:6
Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

With that p***age maybe you can see there can be dead faith as there can be dead works.. By calling saving faith, a faith that accesses the grace of God, dead, you are opening yourself up to having your works seen as dead.. After all holding a temple recommend is an announcement that you have paid your t i t h e.. Is that not sounding a trumpet before you as you enter the temple? It is just as easily seen as a the hypocrites in the day Jesus walked among us.. IHS jim

[Billyray]

Once again--is that dead faith you believe Ephesians is referring to?
DB your are being deceptive by avoiding answering my question.

Ephesians 2
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God
9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

What do these verses say about works contributing to our salvation?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Billyray View Post---DB your are being deceptive by avoiding answering my question.

Ephesians 2
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God
9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

What do these verses say about works contributing to our salvation?


Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post---Once again--is that dead faith you believe Ephesians is referring to? I need to know that before I can answer your question, as the scriptures make it clear that faith without works is dead. I believe you are referring to dead faith--right? If you are not--you have no argument--and the scriptures stand as is--faith without works is dead. Wherever one sees faith--they see obedience.

James 2:20-26---King James Version (KJV)

20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.




DB your are being deceptive by avoiding answering my question.

No deception to it. The scriptures are plain--that faith without works is dead?. Do you believe that the faith spoken of in Ephesians 2:8 is a reference to dead faith?

[Billyray]

No deception to it.
It you are not trying to be deceptive then you should have no trouble answering my question. Here it is again for you.

Ephesians 2
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God
9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

What do these verses say about works contributing to our salvation?

[dberrie2000]

It you are not trying to be deceptive then you should have no trouble answering my question. Here it is again for you.

Ephesians 2
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God
9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

What do these verses say about works contributing to our salvation?

It says a lot--if the scriptures are true:


James 2:20-26---King James Version (KJV)


20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

[Billyray]

It says a lot--if the scriptures are true:

It does say a lot. Perhaps you could get yourself to actually address what it does say.

Ephesians 2
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God
9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

What do these verses say about works contributing to our salvation?

[dberrie2000]

It does say a lot. Perhaps you could get yourself to actually address what it does say.

Ephesians 2
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God
9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

What do these verses say about works contributing to our salvation?

It says a lot--if the scriptures are true:


James 2:20-26---King James Version (KJV)


20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.



Could you tell us if the "faith" in Ephesians2:8 is dead faith--or faith with works?

[Billyray]

It says a lot-

It does say a lot. Perhaps you could get yourself to actually address what it does say.

Ephesians 2
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God
9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

What do these verses say about works contributing to our salvation?

[dberrie2000]

It does say a lot. Perhaps you could get yourself to actually address what it does say.

Ephesians 2
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God
9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

What do these verses say about works contributing to our salvation?

It says a lot--if the scriptures are true:


James 2:20-26---King James Version (KJV)

20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.



Could you tell us if the "faith" in Ephesians2:8 is dead faith--or faith with works?

[Apologette]

I don't think, either, Mormons nor Orthodox Christians believe that we can be saved by "works" alone, so that is not really the crux of the disagreement, between these two factions.

Here is the difference, as I see it.

Orthodox Christians believe that faith alone is the saving principle. Works spring from faith, but do not add to salvation.

LDS believe that faith and works are inseparable (two sides of the same coin) and, therefore, works do contribute towards salvation. There really is no salvation (in the Celestial Kingdom, at least), unless there is also obedience through works.

Does this properly represent the crux of both sides of this argument?
I'd say that Christians believe that salvation is God's Work from first to last - that it is grace which calls us, and regenerates us, and by which we can have Faith in Christ unto salvation. Works are the result of salvation, not the means to it.

[Billyray]

It says a lot

It does say a lot. Perhaps you could get yourself to actually address what it does say.

Ephesians 2
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God
9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

What do these verses say about works contributing to our salvation?

[Pa Pa]

I don't think, either, Mormons nor Orthodox Christians believe that we can be saved by "works" alone, so that is not really the crux of the disagreement, between these two factions.

Here is the difference, as I see it.

Orthodox Christians believe that faith alone is the saving principle. Works spring from faith, but do not add to salvation.

LDS believe that faith and works are inseparable (two sides of the same coin) and, therefore, works do contribute towards salvation. There really is no salvation (in the Celestial Kingdom, at least), unless there is also obedience through works.

Does this properly represent the crux of both sides of this argument?Well said, the two sides of the same coin was something I coined :) many years ago. To my knowledge never heard it before. Heaven forbid I would be saved by "my" works...I would be doomed.

[Pa Pa]

Well said, the two sides of the same coin was something I coined :) many years ago. To my knowledge never heard it before. Heaven forbid I would be saved by "my" works...I would be doomed.
BTW, when I said that Grace and works were two sides of the same coin...I went on to say it is that coin that is required to enter into God's presence. So maybe I just expanded on the phrase.

[Billyray]

Well said, the two sides of the same coin was something I coined :) many years ago. To my knowledge never heard it before. Heaven forbid I would be saved by "my" works...I would be doomed.
But if works are required for your entrance into heaven that you are saved by your works in addition to your faith.

[Pa Pa]

But if works are required for your entrance into heaven that you are saved by your works in addition to your faith.
I did not say this, heaven is a big places with kingdoms.

[Billyray]

I did not say this, heaven is a big places with kingdoms.
So living in a lower kingdom separated from God the Father is what your would call Heaven?

[Pa Pa]

So living in a lower kingdom separated from God the Father is what your would call Heaven?You believe the same as Islam, God is invisible as such how could anyone see him. Lower kingdoms does not mean you will not see Christ, and this is all most have come to desire.

[Billyray]

Lower kingdoms does not mean you will not see Christ, and this is all most have come to desire.
So is that a yes or a no that you believe eternal separation from God the Father is what you would call Heaven?

[BigJulie]

Here is another old one....same people going over the same points. This last post was in 2009. Wow.

[James Banta]

Here is another old one....same people going over the same points. This last post was in 2009. Wow.

And because the subject was discussed before it should no longer be allowed on the forum? By whose authority.. IHS jim

[alanmolstad]

what religion teaches there is a lower kingdom of heaven?

[James Banta]

what religion teaches there is a lower kingdom of heaven?

Are you serious that you didn't know that mormonism teaches three different levels of heaven.. Three heavens? You didn't know that they divide even the heaven where the Father reigns into three levels? That is the standard uniquely LDS teaching about salvation.. All men are saved into some level of heaven (except sons of perdition of whom there are very few), but most men are ****ed because they never achieve exaltation. very few gain that level of salvation. That is where they can be made Gods, even the Sons of God.. yes they teach that few achieve Godhood but there are far more that reach that lofty height than are ****ed as sons of perdition.

I say there is one salvation and that is to come to Jesus receive forgiveness and live eternally with God in His house as His children. There is one punishment for not come to Jesus and being forgiven and that is the Lake of Fire and all who find their place there are the sons of perdition.. There is by far many more of them than those to are given life.. IHS jim

[alanmolstad]

seems like a very silly teaching if you ask me

[James Banta]

seems like a very silly teaching if you ask me

I won't vote for silly, I will vote for totally unbiblical, wrong, and even blasphemous.. IHS jim

[Libby]

There is some evidence of levels in heaven, in the Bible. (Not saying I believe or know this...just throwing it out there).

2 Corinthians 12:1: "2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know—God knows. 3 And I know that this man—whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, but God knows— 4 was caught up to paradise and heard inexpressible things, things that no one is permitted to tell."

There is also mention of levels of rewards in heaven, like gold crowns for those who were particularly valiant (martyrs, for example).

I really have no idea what heaven will be like, other than we will finally meet Jesus Christ.

I love that song "Imagine".... :)

[Billyray]

There is some evidence of levels in heaven, in the Bible. (Not saying I believe or know this...just throwing it out there).

2 Corinthians 12:1: "2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know—God knows. 3 And I know that this man—whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, but God knows— 4 was caught up to paradise and heard inexpressible things, things that no one is permitted to tell."

Libby do you believe that there are 3 different heavens? What are these three heavens and what is the criteria for entrance into the first, second, and third heaven?

[Libby]

It would be very helpful, if you actually read my posts, Billy.

"I really have no idea what heaven will be like, other than we will finally meet Jesus Christ."

[James Banta]

It would be very helpful, if you actually read my posts, Billy.

"I really have no idea what heaven will be like, other than we will finally meet Jesus Christ."

We can meet our neighbors, our friends, those we work and worship with.. But to say we will merely meet Jesus is a far cry from the fact that WE WILL BE WITH HIM. have an intimate connection to Him a connection not base of just being there but emerging ourselves in Him LOVE.. IHS jim

[alanmolstad]

Libby is correct,
all we know for sure is that we will meet Jesus...

..after that its a bit foggy as to what will be going on..

[James Banta]

Libby is correct,
all we know for sure is that we will meet Jesus...

..after that its a bit foggy as to what will be going on..

In the strictest sense of the word we will meet Jesus.. So will the unsaved at the Great White Throne. The LOVE His children will experience from Him eclipses any mere meeting.. IHS jim

[The Pheonix]

I don't think, either, Mormons nor Orthodox Christians believe that we can be saved by "works" alone, so that is not really the crux of the disagreement, between these two factions.

Here is the difference, as I see it.

Orthodox Christians believe that faith alone is the saving principle. Works spring from faith, but do not add to salvation.

LDS believe that faith and works are inseparable (two sides of the same coin) and, therefore, works do contribute towards salvation. There really is no salvation (in the Celestial Kingdom, at least), unless there is also obedience through works.

Does this properly represent the crux of both sides of this argument?
Sounds like a fair ***essment.

[The Pheonix]

Libby is correct,
all we know for sure is that we will meet Jesus...

..after that its a bit foggy as to what will be going on..
True, the Apostle Paul said that "in this life we see through a gl*** darkly".

[Billyray]

There is some evidence of levels in heaven, in the Bible. . .

Libby do you believe that there are 3 different heavens? What are these three heavens and what is the criteria for entrance into the first, second, and third heaven?

It would be very helpful, if you actually read my posts, Billy.

"I really have no idea what heaven will be like, other than we will finally meet Jesus Christ."
I do read your posts and when I saw this statement by you, "There is some evidence of levels in heaven, in the Bible." I thought I would follow up with you. If you think that there is evidence for many different heavens in the Bible then why not believe that this is true?

[Libby]

Anyone seen the movie "Heaven is for Real"? I saw it last Sunday and it was very interesting, as well as very touching. It's about this little five year old boy who has a vision of heaven, while he having surgery. It wasn't a NDE, because the boy never stopped breathing or anything...it was a vision.

He meant Jesus and also many relatives...including a dead sister that he had never met and didn't even know about.

I've read many near death experiences and most do have encounters with relatives first....and then, sometimes, with Jesus....or often just a bright, white light that brings comfort and peace.

Another interesting thing, about this movie, at the end. There is a young girl, a very talented painter, who has visions of heaven. She painted a picture of Jesus, and this little boy, after looking at hundreds of pictures, said that picture was the closest to what Jesus looked like. The painting is called "Prince of Peace". It kind brought tears to my eyes, when I first saw this painting. It's so beautiful.

[Libby]

213

Prince of Peace

[The Pheonix]

>>>>>

I quoted dr Walter Martin...I posted the link to the video where he goes on to make this point very clear and provides the Bible verses that support this understanding.

We are not saved by Faith alone.
We are not saved by Works alone
We are not saved by faith and works
We are not saved by works and faith.

We are ONLY saved by Grace though faith and not by works.

Now here is the video that makes this clear.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rcf1J6AJB9M .PLEASE listen to it,(it's short)and try not to ask a question that is answered on the video more clearly than i could ever match.







case-closed...
So you are closing the door to debate?

[The Pheonix]

213

Prince of PeaceIn that picture he looks like Kenny Loggins. :)

[Libby]

lol....a little, maybe!

I just love the eyes. Very penetrating.

[James Banta]

James--you connect works with salvation here. Can we not be His--and still be saved?

I guess I do in that if WE SAY WE ARE SAVED but there in no love in us for the Poor, if we make those who are rich of more importantance to us than the poor. We actually have no faith in God.. Through our acts toward the poor and our preferential treatment of the rich we reveal to each other whether or not our faith is just something we say or something be believe (James 2:18).. IHS jim

[James Banta]

I don't believe salvation is either by faith or by works. I believe it is by God's grace--which the scriptures show goes to those who obey Him:


Hebrews 5:9----King James Version (KJV)


9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;


If that is the last word. We can ONLY be saved by obeying Him then we are all ****ed.. Nit one of us have been obedient. He commanded that we be perfect as the Father in heaven is perfect.. How is that coming along for you? You aren't OBEYING HIM. Therefore you can never have eternal salvation! But if you would believe in Him.. Not just say you believe but really believe He would take your sin and give you His righteousness. (2 Cor 5:21).. Jesus OBEYED HIM 100%.. IHS jim

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View PostI don't believe salvation is either by faith or by works. I believe it is by God's grace--which the scriptures show goes to those who obey Him:

Hebrews 5:9----King James Version (KJV)
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;


If that is the last word. We can ONLY be saved by obeying Him then we are all ****ed..

Really? How does one collate that with the testimony of the scriptures?

Revelation 22:14---King James Version (KJV)
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city

[alanmolstad]

It you are not trying to be deceptive then you should have no trouble answering my question. Here it is again for you.

Ephesians 2
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God
9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

What do these verses say about works contributing to our salvation?

Billy is correct here.
Works do not add anything to the salvation of man, but rather works show that salvation has happend.
For works come with faithk, but we are saved by Grace though faith and not by works...