Defining "works-based salvation" and the Blood of Christ

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post---Sure it doesn't:

1 John 1:7---King James Version (KJV)


7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

If receiving the Blood of Christ unto the forgiveness of sins is conditional upon walking in the light--then works are a consideration in eternal life.


Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post---No DB the Bible doesn't teach a works based salvation.


dberrie----The Bible teaches a grace based salvation--and as the scriptures show--that grace goes to those who obey Him--and walk in His light.


Billyray---As I said before IF the Bible taught a works based salvation I would have no issue believing in this, but it doesn't.

First--let's settle a point in your statement---"works based salvation". Do you consider God giving His salvation grace of His Blood to those who walk in the light--a "works-based salvation"?


BTW the verse that you quoted is speaking about sanctification not salvation.

Sorry, Billyray--the LDS consider God's Blood salvational grace.

Could anyone comment on whether this scripture is works-based? If the Blood of Christ is a salvational grace?

[Billyray]

First--let's settle a point in your statement---"works based salvation". Do you consider God giving His salvation grace of His Blood to those who walk in the light--a "works-based salvation"?
Not at all because this verse is speaking about believers who are already saved--perhaps you missed the "we" in the verse. This verse is speaking about ongoing sanctification as I said before, a person is not saved then unsaved every time he sins. That is another one of your nutty ideas.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post---First--let's settle a point in your statement---"works based salvation". Do you consider God giving His salvation grace of His Blood to those who walk in the light--a "works-based salvation"?


Not at all

Then why is that your pat answer when I post scriptures that have God giving His grace to those who obey Him? IE---


Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post---Sure it doesn't:

1 John 1:7---King James Version (KJV)


7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

If receiving the Blood of Christ unto the forgiveness of sins is conditional upon walking in the light--then works are a consideration in eternal life.


Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post---No DB the Bible doesn't teach a works based salvation.

[Billyray]

Then why is that your pat answer when I post scriptures that have God giving His grace to those who obey Him?

God gives his grace all the time to both believers and unbelievers. This verse is not speaking about salvation and you seemed to agree with this fact in the other thread.

[Billyray]

1 John 1:7---King James Version (KJV)


7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
Can you tell me who are the "we" and the "us" are in this verse?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post---First--let's settle a point in your statement---"works based salvation". Do you consider God giving His salvation grace of His Blood to those who walk in the light--a "works-based salvation"?


Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post---Not at all


dberrie---Then why is that your pat answer when I post scriptures that have God giving His grace to those who obey Him? IE---

1 John 1:7---King James Version (KJV)


7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

If receiving the Blood of Christ unto the forgiveness of sins is conditional upon walking in the light--then works are a consideration in eternal life.

Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post---No DB the Bible doesn't teach a works based salvation.


God gives his grace all the time to both believers and unbelievers.

You believe that God gives His Blood unto the forgiveness of sins to those who are unbelievers?


This verse is not speaking about salvation and you seemed to agree with this fact in the other thread.

Cite, please. As I have already stated--the LDS believe the Blood of Christ unto the forgiveness of sins is salvational.

[Billyray]

You believe that God gives His Blood unto the forgiveness of sins to those who are unbelievers?

Jesus died for his sheep.

[Billyray]

Cite, please. As I have already stated--the LDS believe the Blood of Christ unto the forgiveness of sins is salvational.
Perhaps you can go back and read your own posts in the other thread and to catch up to speed. Didn't you agree with me that you don't believe that a person is saved then the next minute he commits a sin then is unsaved, then repents and is saved followed shortly thereafter by another sin and becomes unsaved--saved--unsaved--saved--unsaved--saved--ect. through his entire life? So if this verse is speaking about salvation like you think that iris then your position is not consistent. This verse is speaking to believers who are saved, but this verse is speaking about ongoing sanctification--not salvation.

[nrajeffreturns]

Jesus died for his sheep.

So you are one of those limited atonement folks who believe that there are billions of people who Jesus refused to, or failed to, die for?

[dberrie2000]

Jesus died for his sheep.

Let's get a more accurate statement on that one--you believe that Jesus died ONLY for His sheep.

1 John 2:2---King James Version (KJV)



2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

[dberrie2000]

Perhaps you can go back and read your own posts in the other thread and to catch up to speed. Didn't you agree with me that you don't believe that a person is saved then the next minute he commits a sin then is unsaved, then repents and is saved followed shortly thereafter by another sin and becomes unsaved--saved--unsaved--saved--unsaved--saved--ect. through his entire life? So if this verse is speaking about salvation like you think that iris then your position is not consistent. This verse is speaking to believers who are saved, but this verse is speaking about ongoing sanctification--not salvation.

Billyray--I have no idea what your point here is. The LDS believe the Blood of Christ is salvational in the verse I gave you:


1 John 1:7---King James Version (KJV)


7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.


That verse has the condition of walking in the light to receiving the Blood of Christ. His grace for our obedience to Christ.

[nrajeffreturns]

Billyray--I have no idea what your point here is. The LDS believe the Blood of Christ is salvational in the verse I gave you:


1 John 1:7---King James Version (KJV)


7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.


That verse has the condition of walking in the light to receiving the Blood of Christ. His grace for our obedience to Christ.

But it's apparent that some modern Calvinistic Evangelicals have a big problem with these "If...then" Bible verses. Because they imply that some blessings only come to people if they do something first. This idea destroys the Calvinistic myth that God does everything first, and we have no control of our fate because the individual DESTINY of each of us was decreed and pre- DESTINED by God, for unknown reasons, before He even created the human race. The idea that God reacts to choices we make hurts the myth of the absolute sovereignty and omnipotence of God. Therefore, it became necessary to brand such freedom a heresy.

[Billyray]

So you are one of those limited atonement folks who believe that there are billions of people who Jesus refused to, or failed to, die for?

Absolutely. Tell me Jeff did Christ pay for ALL sins for EVERY single person?

[Billyray]

Let's get a more accurate statement on that one--you believe that Jesus died ONLY for His sheep.

You never did answer my question as to why anyone would go to Hell if Jesus paid for EVERY sin for Every person. Do you think that you are ever going to get around to it or are you too busy?

[Billyray]

Billyray--I have no idea what your point here is. The LDS believe the Blood of Christ is salvational in the verse I gave you:

I don't know how much more plain I can be DB. This verse is not speaking about salvation but rather about sanctification.

[nrajeffreturns]

Absolutely.
So you believe that Jesus refused or failed to atone for most people's sins. Wow. A finite atonement is what you believe in. You have "another gospel" I guess, with "another jesus" who is unable to save most of the human race, I guess. After all, how can your Jesus save even a majority of the human race if He limited His atonement to just a few chosen "teacher's pets" ???


Tell me Jeff did Christ pay for ALL sins for EVERY single person?
What does the Bible say? Does it teach a limited Messiah who bailed on most of the human race? How can there be any hope for most people, if Jesus didn't even die for them? Why should they love or respect Him when He didn't love them enough to die for them?

That whole scenario you believe in regarding this issue seems really unbiblical to me, and unChristian, even. Sorry.

[Billyray]

So you believe that Jesus refused or failed to atone for most people's sins.
John 10:15*just as the Father knows me and I know the Father—and I lay down my life for the sheep.

Absolutely. Jesus died for His sheep (the elect).

Now perhaps you can answer my question. Do you believe that Jesus paid for every sin for every person?

[Billyray]

What does the Bible say?
Isaiah 53:12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great, and he will divide the spoils with the strong, because he poured out his life unto death, and was numbered with the transgressors. For he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

Matthew 1:21 She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins.”

John 10:15 just as the Father knows me and I know the Father—and I lay down my life for the sheep.

John 17: 6*“I have revealed you to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word. 7*Now they know that everything you have given me comes from you. 8*For I gave them the words you gave me and they accepted them. They knew with certainty that I came from you, and they believed that you sent me. 9*I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours.

[MichaellS]

First--let's settle a point in your statement---"works based salvation". Do you consider God giving His salvation grace of His Blood to those who walk in the light--a "works-based salvation"?



Sorry, Billyray--the LDS consider God's Blood salvational grace.

Could anyone comment on whether this scripture is works-based? If the Blood of Christ is a salvational grace?


1 John 1:7---King James Version (KJV)

7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.


It is my understanding we don’t have any claim to be of any part of any scriptures dealing with any benefits granted till first we accept what is freely given. So, to answer the above question dealing with the above verse is no.

Curious, Has anyone touched on the difference between entrance into and maintenance of salvation?

I’m new here so I didn’t want to be unsocial with such a lively room, carry on.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post----First--let's settle a point in your statement---"works based salvation". Do you consider God giving His salvation grace of His Blood to those who walk in the light--a "works-based salvation"?

Sorry, Billyray--the LDS consider God's Blood salvational grace.

Could anyone comment on whether this scripture is works-based? If the Blood of Christ is a salvational grace?

1 John 1:7---King James Version (KJV)

7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.


It is my understanding we don’t have any claim to be of any part of any scriptures dealing with any benefits granted till first we accept what is freely given.

The scriptures have the free gift as the Atonement of Jesus Christ for the sins of the whole world--which was a free gift to all men. All men were Redeemed from the consequences of the Fall--and given the opportunity of eternal life.


Romans 5:18---King James Version (KJV)
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.



So, to answer the above question dealing with the above verse is no.

Thanks for the direct answer. If that is true--then God gives His salvational grace to those who walk in His light, without the accusation of a works-based salvation. The faith alone theology(sola fide) is faith that is alone for salvation. Any scripture that has God giving His salvational grace for obedience to Him is considered a false doctrine--yet, the Biblical NT testifies to just that--God giving His grace unto life to those who obey Him.


Curious, Has anyone touched on the difference between entrance into and maintenance of salvation?

I’m new here so I didn’t want to be unsocial with such a lively room, carry on.

Good subject--fire away. The faith alone don't usually use such language as "maintenance of salvation". What do you claim as your church?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post----Billyray--I have no idea what your point here is. The LDS believe the Blood of Christ is salvational in the verse I gave you:


1 John 1:7---King James Version (KJV)


7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.


That verse has the condition of walking in the light to receiving the Blood of Christ. His grace for our obedience to Christ.


I don't know how much more plain I can be DB. This verse is not speaking about salvation but rather about sanctification.

And I don't know how to be any more plain than state that the LDS believe the Blood of Christ is salvational.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Billyray View Post----Jesus died for his sheep.


dberrie----Let's get a more accurate statement on that one--you believe that Jesus died ONLY for His sheep.

1 John 2:2---King James Version (KJV)


2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.


You never did answer my question as to why anyone would go to Hell if Jesus paid for EVERY sin for Every person. Do you think that you are ever going to get around to it or are you too busy?

Billyray--I have answered that question several times now--you just have not accepted my answer. The reason that anyone would be denied eternal life is because they refused to obey the terms of the Redeemer of all mankind--and obey and follow Him. The One who died for the sins of the whole world--and bought us with a price--all men.


Romans 5:18---King James Version (KJV)


18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

[nrajeffreturns]

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.


The reason that anyone would be denied eternal life is because they refused to obey the terms of the Redeemer of all mankind--and obey and follow Him....the One who died for the sins of the whole world--and bought us with a price--all men.


Makes sense to me. If Jesus didn't pay the price for the sins of ALL of us sinners, then it would mean that He didn't love all of us--it would mean that He only loves some of us. That doesn't seem right. I think Jesus loves all of us, and if He loves all of us, then He died for all of us.

We are all His sheep. Some of us might be lost sheep, but that doesn't mean that He doesn't love all of us.

Billy's "small" atonement theory essentially means that Jesus hates most of the human race. I don't see the Bible teaching such a "gospel." The GOOD news I see in the Bible is that God so loved ALL of us that He sent His only begotten Son to die for ALL of us, so that any of us who would follow Him could inherit eternal life. Now THAT is good news--the news that eternal life is available to ALL of us. The only thing that will keep us from being saved is OUR choices, not Jesus' so-called choice to not die for most of us. Billy's news is BAD news for the vast majority of the human race. It's a gospel of hopelessness, IMO.

[Billyray]

And I don't know how to be any more plain that state that the LDS believe the Blood of Christ is salvational.
1 John 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

So then you must have changed your mind. Since you believe that this verse is speaking about salvation you must believe that you are saved--then unsaved--then saved--then unsaved every time you sin. Is that what you believe this verse is saying?

[Billyray]

The reason that anyone would be denied eternal life is because they refused to obey the terms of the Redeemer of all mankind--and obey and follow Him. The One who died for the sins of the whole world--and bought us with a price--all men.

It is a sin to refuse to obey Christ. Do you believe that Christ paid for some sins but not all sins?

[Billyray]

Romans 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one [B]the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

If ALL men are justified then they are seen as not guilty before God. Why do you believe that a person who is not guilty will be sent to Hell?

[nrajeffreturns]

It is a sin to refuse to obey Christ.

Is it a sin for Christ to refuse to love all mankind and to refuse to die for all mankind?


Do you believe that Christ paid for some sins but not all sins?
So you're asking Dberrie: "Do you believe, like Billyray does, that Jesus only loved and atoned for a few of us, and that He never had any intention of making salvation available to the rest of mankind?"

[RealFakeHair]

Is it a sin for Christ to refuse to love all mankind and to refuse to die for all mankind?


So you're asking Dberrie: "Do you believe, like Billyray does, that Jesus only loved and atoned for a few of us, and that He never had any intention of making salvation available to the rest of mankind?"

Lost in translation, or something?
Don't know what you mean by (it is a sin for Christ to refuse to love?)

[Billyray]

Is it a sin for Christ to refuse to love all mankind and to refuse to die for all mankind?

Christ is God and is without sin, hopefully you knew that already. Now that I answered you question perhaps you could answer my questions.

It is a sin to refuse to obey Christ.

Do you believe that Christ paid for some sins but not all sins?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post---Romans 5:18
Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.


If ALL men are justified then they are seen as not guilty before God.

As to the condemnation that befell all men due to the Fall--they aren't. They are absolved--justified--of life. Now, all men are justified to the opportunity of eternal life.


Why do you believe that a person who is not guilty will be sent to Hell?

Because all men will now be judged according to their own actions--and not the condemnation that befell all men due to the Fall. They refuse to obey the conditions set by the Redeemer--and are judged according to their own works. But all are freed--justified--absolved--of the condemnation that fell on all men due to the Fall. Christ's Atonement for all men absolved all men of that guilt. They now will either receive of His grace by obeying Christ--the Redeemer--who has the right to set the conditions, seeing that He bought us with a price. And all will now be judged according to our obedience(works)--and either receive of His grace unto life--or ****ation--according to our obedience to Christ--our Redeemer.

[RealFakeHair]

[quote]Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post---Romans 5:18

Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.




As to the condemnation that befell all men due to the Fall--they aren't. They are absolved--justified--of life. Now, all men are justified to the opportunity of eternal life.



Because all men will now be judged according to their own actions--and not the condemnation that befell all men due to the Fall. They refuse to obey the conditions set by the Redeemer--and are judged according to their own works. But all are freed--justified--absolved--of the condemnation that fell on all men due to the Fall. Christ's Atonement for all men absolved all men of that guilt. They now will either receive of His grace by obeying Christ--the Redeemer--who has the right to set the conditions, seeing that He bought us with a price. And all will now be judged according to our obedience(works)--and either receive of His grace unto life--or ****ation--according to our obedience to Christ--our Redeemer.

I get a Work-out just watching you two go at each other. Lets settle it right here, dberrie, you be judge by your works and let Billray be judge by Grace, and let it be for now, hows bout it?

[Billyray]

I get a Work-out just watching you two go at each other. Lets settle it right here, dberrie, you be judge by your works and let Billray be judge by Grace, and let it be for now, hows bout it?
This seems to be the only topic DB likes to talk about both here and on CARM (when he is not banned of course).

[Billyray]

As to the condemnation that befell all men due to the Fall--they aren't. They are absolved--justified--of life. Now, all men are justified to the opportunity of eternal life.

So on the one hand you say that all men are justified but on the other hand not all men are justified. Don't you see that your beliefs are in conflict?

[Billyray]

Billyray
Why do you believe that a person who is not guilty will be sent to Hell?

DB
Because all men will now be judged according to their own actions--and not the condemnation that befell all men due to the Fall. They refuse to obey the conditions set by the Redeemer--and are judged according to their own works. But all are freed--justified--absolved--of the condemnation that fell on all men due to the Fall. Christ's Atonement for all men absolved all men of that guilt. They now will either receive of His grace by obeying Christ--the Redeemer--who has the right to set the conditions, seeing that He bought us with a price. And all will now be judged according to our obedience(works)--and either receive of His grace unto life--or ****ation--according to our obedience to Christ--our Redeemer.
So bottom line you don't really believe that all men are justified. If that is the case why do you keep using this verse?

[nrajeffreturns]

Christ is God and is without sin, hopefully you knew that already.
I can't speak for you, but LDS believe that Jesus is not a sinner. But then, LDS believe that Jesus loved ALL of us enough to die for ALL of us. If you believe that He hates most of the human race so much that He refused to die for them, then maybe you believe that was a sin. Plus: Funny how you re-define "all" to mean "just the relatively few elect people." Yet when it comes to "all have sinned" then you switch over to "All really does mean literally all including fetusus."

How come you get to change the meaning of "all" in the Bible to suit your beliefs, but you won't allow the LDS to do that with regard to theirs?


Now that I answered you question perhaps you could answer my questions.
Okay. Dberrie and I have demolished your argument so thoroughly, you deserve some mercy.


It is a sin to refuse to obey Christ.
Deliberately, knowingly refusing to do what Christ wants you to do is indeed a sin. Which proves that little babies do not sin, for they cannot sin. They aren't aware of what Christ wants them to do yet, therefore they CAN'T deliberately refuse to obey Him. Babies sin less than pretty much any adult does.


Do you believe that Christ paid for some sins but not all sins?
No. Well, He may not have paid for Satan's sins.

[Billyray]

I can't speak for you, but LDS believe that Jesus is not a sinner.
You already know what I believe Jeff which is that Jesus is without sin so why the games. Nor did I ever say that LDS believe that Jesus was a sinner.

You said

Is it a sin for Christ to refuse to love all mankind and to refuse to die for all mankind?

Can you tell me where in the Bible that it says that it is a sin for Christ to die for the elect, not for every single person?

You don't even believe that Jesus paid for every sin for every person so by logic do you consider Jesus a sinner for not doing so?

[MichaellS]

What do you claim as your church?

I call most of them mine so long as they haven’t removed themselves from the way. Real time claims? Sure. I’m currently learning of the liturgical catholic, in the small “c” way.


But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

Romans 5:18---King James Version (KJV)


DB - Could anyone comment on whether this scripture is works-based?


MS - no


DB - If that is true--then Gos gives His salvational grace to those who walk in His light, without the accusation of a works-based salvation. The faith alone theology(sola fide) is faith that is alone for salvation. Any scripture that has God giving His salvational grace for obedience to Him is considered a false doctrine--yet, the Biblical NT testifies to just that--God giving His grace unto life to those who obey Him.


DB - The faith alone don't usually use such language as "maintenance of salvation".

Nice perception, who said I was anything of the sort? Apparently, from my answer, you haven’t included those our Lord categorized in the interim. They are neither proven in works, nor denied of salvation.


, , ,“these are the ones on whom seed was sown on the rocky places, who, when they hear the word, immediately receive it with joy; 17and they have no firm root in themselves, but are only temporary”,,, (Mark 4:16, 17) NAS

So whether they finish the race or not, while only babes, they are temporary brothers. So, in the event that the Lord was to take them home somewhere within that “temporary” point, guess what, ,


“, , He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, ,”
(John 1:12) NAS

Since there within the word we see a p***age for every stage of Christian maturity, or immaturity, it’s only fitting to include this one.

But in the procession of Life immediately beyond that, the faith alone view is worthless. James 2:14.

[Billyray]

Deliberately, knowingly refusing to do what Christ wants you to do is indeed a sin.
So you can't possibly believe that Jesus paid for every sin for every person.



Deliberately, knowingly refusing to do what Christ wants you to do is indeed a sin.

So it is your position that it is not a sin to break God's laws even if you are not aware of those laws?

[Billyray]

1 John 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.


. . .If that is true--then Gos gives His salvational grace to those who walk in His light. . .
Do you really believe that this Chapter in general and specifically this verse is addressing unbelievers who are not already saved?

[nrajeffreturns]

You already know what I believe Jeff which is that Jesus is without sin so why the games.
Because you reject the "essential Christian doctrine" that teaches that Jesus atoned for the sins of the world, meaning the sins of all who lived or will live in this world.


Nor did I ever say that LDS believe that Jesus was a sinner.
But isn't failing to love one's neighbor a sin? Jesus taught that, right? Don't you think that Jesus was willing and able to obey all the commandments He gave to His disciples? Just by basic logic, then, it seems reasonable to ***ume that Jesus obeyed His own commandment to love others as you love yourself. But you believe that Jesus did NOT love all humans. You believe He only loved the small minority of the human race who you believe to be "the chosen elect."

Therefore, you believe that Jesus broke His own commandment.

[Billyray]

Because you reject the "essential Christian doctrine" that teaches that Jesus atoned for the sins of the world, meaning the sins of all who lived or will live in this world.

You don't even believe that Jesus paid for every sin for every single person and you are saying that this is an "essential Christian doctrine"?


Isaiah 53:12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great, and he will divide the spoils with the strong, because he poured out his life unto death, and was numbered with the transgressors. For he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

Matthew 1:21 She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins.”

John 10:15 just as the Father knows me and I know the Father—and I lay down my life for the sheep.

John 17: 6*“I have revealed you to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word. 7*Now they know that everything you have given me comes from you. 8*For I gave them the words you gave me and they accepted them. They knew with certainty that I came from you, and they believed that you sent me. 9*I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours.
Did you bother reading any of the verses that I gave you?

[Billyray]

But isn't failing to love one's neighbor a sin?
Is it unloving for Christ not to pay for sins for those who will never come to Him by faith?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post---1 John 1:7

But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.


. . .If that is true--then God gives His salvational grace to those who walk in His light. . .


Do you really believe that this Chapter in general and specifically this verse is addressing unbelievers who are not already saved?

I believe that John is bearing witness to truth, regardless of who he is addressing. And the truth is---this verse conveys that God gives His grace to those who walk in His light. If that is true--faith alone theology is false.

[dberrie2000]

Apparently, from my answer, you haven’t included those our Lord categorized in the interim. They are neither proven in works, nor denied of salvation.


, , ,“these are the ones on whom seed was sown on the rocky places, who, when they hear the word, immediately receive it with joy; 17and they have no firm root in themselves, but are only temporary”,,, (Mark 4:16, 17) NAS

So whether they finish the race or not, while only babes, they are temporary brothers. So, in the event that the Lord was to take them home somewhere within that “temporary” point, guess what, ,


“, , He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, ,”
(John 1:12) NAS

Hebrews 3:14---King James Version (KJV)
14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;


Since there within the word we see a p***age for every stage of Christian maturity, or immaturity, it’s only fitting to include this one.

But in the procession of Life immediately beyond that, the faith alone view is worthless. James 2:14.

James 2:14---King James Version (KJV)
14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

Procession beyond what? The question being--can dead faith save one?

James 2:20---King James Version (KJV)
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

[Billyray]

I believe that John is bearing witness to truth, regardless of who he is addressing. And the truth is---this verse conveys that God gives His grace to those who walk in His light. If that is true--faith alone theology is false.
So it is your position that John is speaking about unbelievers in this verse and the surrounding verses?

[nrajeffreturns]

Is it unloving for Christ not to pay for sins for those who will never come to Him by faith?

So you believe that Christ doesn't love people unconditionally. Is your belief really a Christian belief?

[Billyray]

So you believe that Christ doesn't love people unconditionally. Is your belief really a Christian belief?
God is loving and he is just. Not a single person deserves salvation and it would be fair and just for God to not save any of those who sinned. This is exactly what he did when the angles sinned.

[Billyray]

So you believe that Christ doesn't love people unconditionally. Is your belief really a Christian belief?


Malachi 1

1 A prophecy: The word of the Lord to Israel through Malachi.[a]
2 “I have loved you,” says the Lord. “But you ask, ‘How have you loved us?’ “Was not Esau Jacob’s brother?” declares the Lord. “Yet I have loved Jacob,
3 but Esau I have hated, and I have turned his hill country into a wasteland and left his inheritance to the desert jackals.”

Jeff you brought up an interesting point--one that I hope you will further engage.

Who is the "Lord" in verse 2?

What does the "Lord" say about Esau in verse 3?

[nrajeffreturns]

God is loving and he is just.
But because you follow Calvin's teachings, you believe that Jesus only loved a fraction of the human race. You believe that Jesus either was unable or unwilling to die or atone for most of us. And you believe that is a loving thing to do? If you believe that, then what would Jesus have done if He HATED that majority of the human race?

[Billyray]

But because you follow Calvin's teachings, you believe that Jesus only loved a fraction of the human race.

Jeff I don't follow Calvin, I follow what the Bible teaches. If I thought that the Bible taught that Jesus paid for every sin for every single person then I would believe that, but it doesn't. And it brings up the problem that if Jesus did pay for every single sin for every single person then nobody would end up in hell.

I gave you several verses that speak about limited atonement. Did you bother even reading them?

[nrajeffreturns]

Jeff I don't follow Calvin, I follow what the Bible teaches.
If both you and Calvin have interpreted the Bible as teaching that Jesus only loves a select few, then you agree with Calvin, and both of you are wrong.


If I thought that the Bible taught that Jesus paid for every sin for every single person then I would believe that
That is obviously true. Just like if I thought that the Bible taught that Jesus hates most of the human race so much that He didn't even give them a chance at salvation, then I would believe that.


And it brings up the problem that if Jesus did pay for every single sin for every single person then nobody would end up in hell.
That problem does not exist. It is the result of faulty reasoning. Jesus died even for the sinners who will choose to reject Him. He died for them because He loves even them, He loves them so much that He offers them salvation, and if they want it all they need to do is accept the atonement that He made for their sins. THAT is the GOOD news of the Gospel. If Jesus didn't pay the price for everyone's sins, then all those people who He failed to pay the price for never had a chance at salvation, which means that they were created hopeless. That is not something the God of the New Testament would do.

The GOOD NEWS of the New Testament is that thanks to what Jesus did for ALL of us, salvation is possible for ALL of us. Otherwise, the message of the New Testament would be mostly BAD NEWS for MOST of us--the message would be "There is no hope for you because Jesus didn't die for you." Is that really what you want to believe the Bible teaches? Why?

[Billyray]

If both you and Calvin have interpreted the Bible as teaching that Jesus only loves a select few, then you agree with Calvin, and both of you are wrong.

As I said I follow the Bible not Calvin or any other person for that matter. If I can't support my positon from the Bible then I will tell you. A perfect example is when we spoke about salvation and little children. I clearly stated that the Bible doesn't speak on the issue with the exception of David's son. I then told you I have a personal opinion on the issue but that it was simply my opinion.


That is obviously true. Just like if I thought that the Bible taught that Jesus hates most of the human race so much that He didn't even give them a chance at salvation, then I would believe that.

There have been several issues that I have brought up on this topic but you haven't really answered them. You seem interested in this topic so perhaps you can engage and actually address what I have already brought up. Let's start with this one. You haven't given me a good answer to my question about why you believe that Jesus paid for every single sin for every single person because if he did then every single person would go to heaven.

[nrajeffreturns]

As I said I follow the Bible not Calvin or any other person for that matter.
But Calvin probably thought the HIS beliefs--which are the same as YOURS--followed the Bible. But if Calvin was wrong about that, then so are you.


You seem interested in this topic so perhaps you can engage and actually address what I have already brought up.
Sounds good. Let's do it.


Let's start with this one. You haven't given me a good answer to my question about why you believe that Jesus paid for every single sin for every single person because if he did then every single person would go to heaven.
It's pretty simple: You are wrong. It is entirely possible for Jesus to have paid the price for your sins, and you could still not inherit eternal life. This ****ogy should show you how this is possible:

There was a man who loved all people and who wanted to make a way for all people to safely cross a deep canyon. The bridge was the only way to get across the canyon, because any other way would cause a person to fall off and die instead of getting across.

Some people who wanted to cross the canyon wisely followed the bridge that the man had built for all who wanted to safely cross, and they made it.

Other people decided to take some other way, and they fell off and died and never made it across.

Then one day, Billy claimed that the man didn't really die making it possible for ALL people to safely cross the canyon, because if the man had REALLY died for ALL the people, then ALL the people would have made it across. Billy was wrong, because the man didn't just build the bridge for a FEW--he loved ALL of them, and the work that he gave his life building was for all of them. The fact that some of them chose to not use His bridge, doesn't mean that He didn't love them, or that He didn't want them to get safely across the canyon. It wasn't a matter of Him not doing something for them--it's that they chose to reject what He had done for them.

And now you know what the flaw was in your thinking.

[Billyray]

But Calvin probably thought the HIS beliefs--which are the same as YOURS--followed the Bible. But if Calvin was wrong about that, then so are you.

And how does that show that I follow Calvin instead of the Bible? It doesn't.


It's pretty simple: You are wrong. It is entirely possible for Jesus to have paid the price for your sins, and you could still not inherit eternal life. This ****ogy should show you how this is possible:

There was a man who loved all people and who wanted to make a way for all people to safely cross a deep canyon. The bridge was the only way to get across the canyon, because any other way would cause a person to fall off and die instead of getting across.

Some people who wanted to cross the canyon wisely followed the bridge that the man had built for all who wanted to safely cross, and they made it.

Other people decided to take some other way, and they fell off and died and never made it across.

Then one day, Billy claimed that the man didn't really die making it possible for ALL people to safely cross the canyon, because if the man had REALLY died for ALL the people, then ALL the people would have made it across. Billy was wrong, because the man didn't just build the bridge for a FEW--he loved ALL of them, and the work that he gave his life building was for all of them. The fact that some of them chose to not use His bridge, doesn't mean that He didn't love them, or that He didn't want them to get safely across the canyon. It wasn't a matter of Him not doing something for them--it's that they chose to reject what He had done for them.

And now you know what the flaw was in your thinking.

Actually it shows the flaw in your thinking. If Christ paid for every sin for every person then there wouldn't be any basis for sending anyone to Hell. You said "it's that they chose to reject what He had done for them." If they reject Christ and fail to place their faith in Him, isn't that a sin?

[Billyray]

So you are one of those limited atonement folks who believe that there are billions of people who Jesus refused to, or failed to, die for?

Absolutely. . .

So you believe that Jesus refused or failed to atone for most people's sins. Wow. A finite atonement is what you believe in. . .

What does the Bible say?

Isaiah 53:12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great, and he will divide the spoils with the strong, because he poured out his life unto death, and was numbered with the transgressors. For he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

Matthew 1:21 She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins.”

John 10:15 just as the Father knows me and I know the Father—and I lay down my life for the sheep.

John 17: 6*“I have revealed you to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word. 7*Now they know that everything you have given me comes from you. 8*For I gave them the words you gave me and they accepted them. They knew with certainty that I came from you, and they believed that you sent me. 9*I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours.
Jeff I gave you multiple verse on this will you address them for me?

[nrajeffreturns]

And how does that show that I follow Calvin instead of the Bible?
Well, LDS people believe that Joseph Smith's teachings follow the Bible, yet we get accused of following Joseph Smith instead of following the Bible. Weird, huh? So if you have a problem with that reasoning from certain anti-LDS people, then just say so and maybe both sides can stop accusing the other of following the teachings of a man instead of the teachings of scripture.


Actually it shows the flaw in your thinking.
There is no flaw in my thinking on this.


If Christ paid for every sin for every person then there wouldn't be any basis for sending anyone to Hell.
Sure there would. People are free to reject what Christ did for them, and He won't force anyone to heaven, no matter how much of a price He paid. I could pay for your plane ticket to Disneyland, but if you refuse to get on the plane, it doesn't mean that I didn't pay your way. Your failure to arrive at Disneyland won't be because I didn't pay for your ticket, it will be because you chose not to avail yourself of the marvelous gift I paid on your behalf. So the payment I made might be wasted in your case, but I still paid for it. Your refusal to admit that fact is the glaring flaw in your thinking.


You said "it's that they chose to reject what He had done for them." If they reject Christ and fail to place their faith in Him, isn't that a sin?
Christ calls ALL people to come unto Him. Refusing to heed that call is a sin, yes, and there will be consequences for it. Another flaw in your thinking is that if Christ calls all people to come to Him, but He only atoned for the sins of SOME of them, then some of the people He's calling are people who have ZERO hope of being saved, even if they obey the call. Because according to you, Jesus didn't die for those people, so there's no way they can be saved. After all, how many people who Jesus didn't die for will make it to heaven?

See the fatal flaws in your reasoning? That's evidence that Calvin's and your thinking disagree with what the Bible teaches.

[James Banta]

[nrajeffreturns;144675]Well, LDS people believe that Joseph Smith's teachings follow the Bible, yet we get accused of following Joseph Smith instead of following the Bible. Weird, huh? So if you have a problem with that reasoning from certain anti-LDS people, then just say so and maybe both sides can stop accusing the other of following the teachings of a man instead of the teachings of scripture.


Just as a quick example of the LDS being followers of Joseph Smith and not the Bible is found in his practice of plural marriage. In the D&C 20:5 Smith is called the first ELDER. And yet the Bible an elder is commanded to be the husband of one wife.. That is just a quick reference to show that mormonism ignores the teachings of the Bible as it suites them..


There is no flaw in my thinking on this.

That proof of ignoring the Bible makes your point of no effect, and shows a clear flaw in your thinking..




Sure there would. People are free to reject what Christ did for them, and He won't force anyone to heaven, no matter how much of a price He paid. I could pay for your plane ticket to Disneyland, but if you refuse to get on the plane, it doesn't mean that I didn't pay your way. Your failure to arrive at Disneyland won't be because I didn't pay for your ticket, it will be because you chose not to avail yourself of the marvelous gift I paid on your behalf. So the payment I made might be wasted in your case, but I still paid for it. Your refusal to admit that fact is the glaring flaw in your thinking.

You have also told a simple truth here, Not all, not even most, but few will trust in Jesus. mormonism teaches to rely on faith plus baptism, plus church membership (laying on of hands), plus their own efforts to endure to the end in righteousness. That isn't trusting Jesus for much, it is turning away from what He did saying "oh yes we believe in Him but we need to do the work He didn't do and then and only then will we allow Him in to make up my shortfall". That isn't relying on His grace, it's trusting in our works. It is a denial of the sufficiency of Him and the work He completed..


Christ calls ALL people to come unto Him. Refusing to heed that call is a sin, yes, and there will be consequences for it. Another flaw in your thinking is that if Christ calls all people to come to Him, but He only atoned for the sins of SOME of them, then some of the people He's calling are people who have ZERO hope of being saved, even if they obey the call. Because according to you, Jesus didn't die for those people, so there's no way they can be saved. After all, how many people who Jesus didn't die for will make it to heaven?

You are right the payment has been made.. If anyone thinks so little of the grace so freely offered there is no more sacrifice for sin and their sin remains on them.. If a person thing His grace is so cheep that we can earn it through good works, their sin remains on them.. The Bible teaches us that all that are given to Him WILL come to Him. This doesn't mean the price wasn't paid but the rejection of the gift is that much deeper a sin before Him.. They actual crucify Him again unto themselves.. They are sons of Perdition, every last one of them..


See the fatal flaws in your reasoning? That's evidence that Calvin's and your thinking disagree with what the Bible teaches.

You can't discuss Calvinism you don't understand it.. I have given you a snapshot of it. Jesus did die so that the sins of all who would come to Him could be forgiven. Unlike mormonism we actually believe that blood is required to make an atonement. Neither water or sweat has that power.. All who believe are washed in that blood. Those that turn away from the blood and to their own devices will die in their sin and the Blood can't atone for their sin.. Therefore it can be said that the blood was shed only for those that would wash in it.. Totally biblical.. You just refuse to see anything about it but your narrow mormon taught concept of what Calvinism teaches.. There is also a channel to discuss Calvinism. If you wish to attack it's doctrines go there! Defend your mormonism here.. You can't do that by the Bible!! IHS jim

[Billyray]

Well, LDS people believe that Joseph Smith's teachings follow the Bible, yet we get accused of following Joseph Smith instead of following the Bible. Weird, huh?
It is not weird at all Jeff because they are completely different scenarios. I don't consider Calvin's writings when determining what I believe, if fact I have Calvin's writings in my house but I haven't read more that a hand full of pages from any of his works. His writings are not scripture and I certainly would not take them as such. Now lets look at your position which is completely different. In addition to the Bible you have writings of Joseph Smith that you hold above the Bible the teachings of the Bible i.e. the Book of Mormon and the D and C etc.

[Billyray]

People are free to reject what Christ did for them, and He won't force anyone to heaven, no matter how much of a price He paid.


Christ calls ALL people to come unto Him. Refusing to heed that call is a sin, yes, and there will be consequences for it.
But rejecting Christ and not placing faith in Him is a sin. If Christ paid for this sin--the sin of unbelief--then there would be no basis for sending that person to Hell. I think a better position for you to hold--and a more accurate one from your perspective--would be that you believe that Jesus paid for most sins for every person but not every sin for every person. Are you OK with this position?

[nrajeffreturns]

It is not weird at all Jeff because they are completely different scenarios.
No they are pretty much perfectly ****ogous. You just haven't thought it through, just like you failed to consider the "Paid ticket to Disneyland" parable that totally destroyed your Calvinistic belief that Jesus deliberately failed to atone for most people's sins, thus dooming them to a hopeless eternity in hell.


I don't consider Calvin's writings when determining what I believe
If true, it doesn't matter. Unless you are willing to accept that many people have converted to LDS based only on their reading of the Bible and then later, when they learned LDS doctrines, realized that the LDS teach the same concepts that those people had come to learn from the Bible. And thus those converts joined the LDS church as a natural, logical consequence of their reading the Bible and realizing that the LDS church is the most biblical church in the world.


In addition to the Bible you have writings of Joseph Smith that you hold above the Bible the teachings of the Bible i.e. the Book of Mormon and the D and C etc.
Who lied to you and falsely told you that I hold the writings of Joseph Smith above the Bible and the teachings of the Bible? What nonsense.

By the way, if I believe Joseph Smith to have been as much of a prophet as I believe any Bible-mentioned prophet (such as Isaiah) to have been, then my acceptance of Joseph Smith's teachings doesn't make me a follower of a man--unless you're ready to admit that by accepting the teachings of Isaiah you follow the teachings of a man instead of of scripture.

[nrajeffreturns]

But rejecting Christ and not placing faith in Him is a sin. If Christ paid for this sin--the sin of unbelief--then there would be no basis for sending that person to Hell.
You are 100% WRONG. There would still be a perfectly good reason why that person didn't get eternal life, and that reason is that the person chose to not use the ticket that Jesus paid the price for, during His atonement for the sins of mankind.

It's really weird running into a Christian who rejects the doctrine that the Savior of mankind did atone for the sins of all mankind, and instead believes that He only atoned for the sins of, say, 10% of all people. I am guessing that your belief puts you in a relatively small minority--a heterodox "cult" of modern Christendom.
It would be interesting to survey all Christians, and find out what percent of them believe as you do. Maybe I can suggest such a question to be included in the next Pew Research poll of American Christians.


I think a better position for you to hold--and a more accurate one from your perspective--would be that you believe that Jesus paid for most sins for every person but not every sin for every person. Are you OK with this position?
Why should I be OK with it?

[dberrie2000]

If Christ paid for every sin for every person then there wouldn't be any basis for sending anyone to Hell.

I have a question for you, Billyary. You seem to believe that Christ died only for His elect--obviously you believe that the Atonement somehow forgave the sins of those whom He died for.

If the Atonement was just for the elect--and it involved the forgiveness of their sins--then why were all men commanded to repent and be baptized for the remission of sins--following the Atonement and resurrection of Christ?

[Billyray]

If the Atonement was just for the elect--and it involved the forgiveness of their sins--then why were all men commanded to repent and be baptized for the remission of sins--following the Atonement and resurrection of Christ?
Because every single one of us is commanded to do so and every single one of us has a choice either to follow Christ or to reject him.

[Billyray]

You are 100% WRONG. There would still be a perfectly good reason why that person didn't get eternal life, and that reason is that the person chose to not use the ticket that Jesus paid the price for, during His atonement for the sins of mankind.

It doesn't matter what the individual choose to do or not--he is not the judge, God is the judge--and if every single sin for every single person was paid for then a fair judge would not sentence a person who was not guilty.



It's really weird running into a Christian who rejects the doctrine that the Savior of mankind didn't atone for the sins of all mankind, but instead He only atoned for the sins of, say, 10% of all people.

What is really weird is that a person such as yourself believes that Jesus paid for every single sin for every single person and yet punishes them anyway despite being forgiven (ie. not guilty). It would be like a person in court who gets declared not guilty of all charges and then put in prison for life without the chance of parole. This makes no sense whatsoever.

[nrajeffreturns]

Because every single one of us is commanded to do so and every single one of us has a choice either to follow Christ or to reject him.

Huh? What's the point of choosing to follow Christ if you're one of the people He didn't die for? What'll that get you? If you're one the people He refused to die for, then you have no hope of salvation. It was never a possibility for you. Your life was a waste from the second you were created. Choosing to follow a God who has already said "I didn't pay for YOUR sins, just for other people's sins" is a foolish idea. Why do it? It makes no sense at all. That's how I know it's a false doctrine.

[Billyray]

Huh? What's the point of choosing to follow Christ if you're one of the people He didn't die for? What'll that get you? If you're one the people He refused to die for, then you have no hope of salvation. It was never a possibility for you. Your life was a waste from the second you were created. Choosing to follow a God who has already said "I didn't pay for YOUR sins, just for other people's sins" is a foolish idea. Why do it? It makes no sense at all. That's how I know it's a false doctrine.
Anyone who chooses to follow Christ and place their faith in him will be saved.

[Billyray]

It makes no sense at all. That's how I know it's a false doctrine.

What makes no sense at all is your belief that Jesus paid for every single sin--including the sin of unbelief--for every single person and then sending people to Hell without any basis for doing so.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post---If the Atonement was just for the elect--and it involved the forgiveness of their sins--then why were all men commanded to repent and be baptized for the remission of sins--following the Atonement and resurrection of Christ?


Because every single one of us is commanded to do so and every single one of us has a choice either to follow Christ or to reject him.

Billyray--you've missed the point. If the Atonement took care of your sins--or the elect's sins--then why were all commanded to repent and be baptized for the remission of sins?

Let's redact and examine your theology:


Originally Posted by Billyray View Post---But rejecting Christ and not placing faith in Him is a sin. If Christ paid for this sin--the sin of unbelief--then there would be no basis for sending that person to Hell.

Obviously--you believe that the payment for the sins of all men means they are forgiven of those sins--that is the critical ingredient in your theology that spurs you to ask the above question---- If Christ paid for this sin--the sin of unbelief--then there would be no basis for sending that person to Hell.

The fact is--that is false. The Atonement for all sins of all men did not forgive the first sin. It guaranteed all men the opportunity to inherit eternal life--by removing the condemnation brought upon all men due to the Fall:

Romans 5:18---King James Version (KJV)
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.


Please do notice some things here, Billyray. First--it was a free gift--Christ alone. It came to all men. And if you were to examine it--the free gift--came upon--past tense--when Christ finished it--not when we accept it.

All men are absolved--justified of life. Which means this---all men are now judged according to their own choices--and not Adam's sin--the condemnation that befell all men due to the Fall. And that was Christ's testimony:

John 5:28-29---King James Version (KJV)
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation

[Billyray]

If the Atonement took care of your sins--or the elect's sins--then why were all commanded to repent and be baptized for the remission of sins?


We are given many commandments, which of course we should follow, but the commandments show us that we are incapable of making it on our own. They simply prove to us that we are sinners who need a Savior. We are saved when we place our trust in Christ to save us because we realize that we can't possibly keep the works of the law and make it on our own.

[Billyray]

The Atonement for all sins of all men did not forgive the first sin. It guaranteed all men the opportunity to inherit eternal life--by removing the condemnation brought upon all men due to the Fall:
Sounds like you believe that Jesus paid for some sins--but not all sins-- for every person. Is that a fair ***essment of your position?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post---If the Atonement took care of your sins--or the elect's sins--then why were all commanded to repent and be baptized for the remission of sins?


We are given many commandments, which of course we should follow, but the commandments show us that we are incapable of making it on our own.

And could you explain for us how this even touches upon my question?

Lets recap:---you believe that Christ only paid for the sins of the few--and that means their sins are forgiven. That is crucial to your argument.

My question, again---if Christ Atoning for the sins of the whole world forgave sins--then why were all commanded to repent and be baptized for the remission of sins?

[dberrie2000]

Sounds like you believe that Jesus paid for some sins--but not all sins-- for every person. Is that a fair ***essment of your position?

Cite, please. Where do you find any statement of mine that reflects that position?

As the scriptures state:


1 John 2:2---King James Version (KJV)


2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.


Billyray--you believe that means the sins of a few--the Bible states--and I believe--that means just what it states--all sins. Every one.

[Billyray]

Lets recap:---you believe that Christ only paid for the sins of the few--and that means their sins are forgiven. That is crucial to your argument.

Christ paid for the sins of those who come to him by faith.


My question, again---if Christ Atoning for the sins of the whole world forgave sins--then why were all commanded to repent and be baptized for the remission of sins?
I don't believe that Christ PAID for every sin for every single person, that is something that you believe. Perhaps you could answer that for me because it doesn't make a lot of sense.

[Billyray]

Cite, please. Where do you find any statement of mine that reflects that position?


The Atonement for all sins of all men did not forgive the first sin. It guaranteed all men the opportunity to inherit eternal life--by removing the condemnation brought upon all men due to the Fall:
From your statement above it doesn't look like you believe that Jesus PAID for every single sin for every single person. If he did then what is the basis for sending anyone to Hell?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Billyray View Post----We are given many commandments, which of course we should follow, but the commandments show us that we are incapable of making it on our own.


dberrie----And could you explain for us how this even touches upon my question?

Lets recap:---you believe that Christ only paid for the sins of the few--and that means their sins are forgiven. That is crucial to your argument.

My question, again---if Christ Atoning for the sins of the whole world forgave sins--then why were all commanded to repent and be baptized for the remission of sins?


Christ paid for the sins of those who come to him by faith.

More diversion. You believe that Christ's Atonement forgave all those sins He Atoned for--how could that be--seeing all were commanded to repent and be baptized for the remission of sins following the Atonement and Resurrection of Christ?

Billyray--before you can validate your theology--you are going to have to answer that question. It is crucial to your argument.


I don't believe that Christ PAID for every sin for every single person, that is something that you believe.

You are right--and for good reason:

1 John 2:2---King James Version (KJV)


2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.


Billyray--you have no where to run.


Perhaps you could answer that for me because it doesn't make a lot of sense.

I know--but then--I have maintained all along--that the faith alone need to differentiate between their Christianity and the true Christianity found in the Biblical text. Never did the twain meet. What is contained in the Bible is also found in the LDS church.

[Billyray]

More diversion. You believe that Christ's Atonement forgave all those sins He Atoned for--how could that be--seeing all were commanded to repent and be baptized for the remission of sins following the Atonement and Resurrection of Christ?

No diversion at all DB, perhaps you just don't seem to grasp what I am saying. Forgiveness of sins takes place when a person comes to Christ and places their faith in Him. Did that clear things up for you?

[Billyray]

1 John 2:2---King James Version (KJV)


2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.


Billyray--you have no where to run..
If this were the only verse in the Bible that spoke on this issue then I would agree with you that Christ paid for every sin for every person for those who come to him by faith, but it is not the only p***age on this topic. Several other verses clearly teach that Jesus died for his sheep and not for every single person. So the only way that all of the verses can be true at the same time is to interpret 1 John 2:2 as referring to the sins of fellow believers throughout the world.

[nrajeffreturns]

From your statement above it doesn't look like you believe that Jesus PAID for every single sin for every single person. If he did then what is the basis for sending anyone to Hell?
They send themselves there by their choice to throw away the opportunity, paid for by Jesus, to walk the path that leads to eternal life.

That is one more thing you don't seem to be comprehending. In the parable of the prepaid plane tickets, it wasn't the wealthy benefactor who kept some people from getting on the plane. Their tickets had been paid for but they chose not to fly. In the parable of the bridge across the canyon, the Builder of the Bridge built it for ALL to cross if they want to. He doesn't SEND anyone over the edge of the cliff. They CHOOSE to take a path that leads off the edge instead of taking the bridge that leads safely to the other side. That's not the Bridge Builder's fault. And He didn't give His life building the bridge for just a few elite people whom He randomly chose to save. He built it for EVERYONE to use. He doesn't forbid ANYONE from using it.

But YOUR belief, which seems identical to Calvin's unbiblical belief, is that the Builder deliberately intended His bridge to only save a FEW of the people, and that He WANTS the rest to fall off the cliff and die.

That's no Builder that I want to believe in. That's a savior of the few--the few who were singled out for salvation, and the rest are forbidden from even being able to be saved. (You do believe that those who God predestined for ****ation, were made by Him to be unable to obey Him, right?)

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post----1 John 2:2---King James Version (KJV)


2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.


Billyray--you have no where to run..


If this were the only verse in the Bible that spoke on this issue then I would agree with you that Christ paid for every sin for every person for those who come to him by faith, but it is not the only p***age on this topic.

IOW--you can find scriptures that cancel, rub out, and delete any scripture that defies your theology?

Well--you are right---there are other scriptures:

Hebrews 2:9---King James Version (KJV)
9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

1 Timothy 4:10---King James Version (KJV)
10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

2 Peter 3:9---King James Version (KJV)
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.


1 Timothy 2:4----King James Version (KJV)
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

***us 2:11---King James Version (KJV)
11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

Romans 5:18----King James Version (KJV)
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

2 Corinthians 5:15---King James Version (KJV)
15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

[nrajeffreturns]

If this were the only verse in the Bible that spoke on this issue then I would agree with you that Christ paid for every sin for every person for those who come to him by faith, but it is not the only p***age on this topic. Several other verses clearly teach that Jesus died for his sheep
Yes, He even died for the lost sheep.


and not for every single person.\If you can find a Bible verse that actually says what you're claiming it says, I will donate some money to the Salvation Army. I think you can't find a verse that says "Jesus did not die for every single person" because no such verse exists.

[Billyray]

Yes, He even died for the lost sheep.

But that is not what that verse says Jeff.

[Billyray]

If you can find a Bible verse that actually says what you're claiming it says, I will donate some money to the Salvation Army. I think you can't find a verse that says "Jesus did not die for every single person" because no such verse exists.
Sure I would be happy to give you a verse which uses ALL in this case not EVERY.

Luke 2
1. And it came to p*** in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus that all the world should be taxed.
2 (And this taxing was first made when Cyrenius was governor of Syria.)
3 And all went to be taxed, every one into his own city.

Do you believe that ALL in the world were taxed?

[Billyray]

IRomans 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life..
Let's take a look at your verses one by one starting with this one since it is one of your favorite verses. Do you believe that "all" in this verse and in the surrounding text is referring to all men or all believers?

[nrajeffreturns]

Sure I would be happy to give you a verse which uses ALL in this case not EVERY.

Luke 2
1. And it came to p*** in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus that all the world should be taxed.
2 (And this taxing was first made when Cyrenius was governor of Syria.)
3 And all went to be taxed, every one into his own city.

Do you believe that ALL in the world were taxed?

Well, you believe that "all have sinned" means literally all, with no exceptions, so why don't you believe that Augustus wanted the entire planet Earth to be taxed? :)

Anyway, I noticed that you failed to find a verse that says "Jesus did not die for every single person."

[Billyray]

Anyway, I noticed that you failed to find a verse that says "Jesus did not die for every single person."
Jeff I gave you multiple verses several times now and I even asked you to comment on them


So you are one of those limited atonement folks who believe that there are billions of people who Jesus refused to, or failed to, die for?

Absolutely. . .

So you believe that Jesus refused or failed to atone for most people's sins. Wow. A finite atonement is what you believe in. . .

What does the Bible say?

Isaiah 53:12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great, and he will divide the spoils with the strong, because he poured out his life unto death, and was numbered with the transgressors. For he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

Matthew 1:21 She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins.”

John 10:15 just as the Father knows me and I know the Father—and I lay down my life for the sheep.

John 17: 6*“I have revealed you to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word. 7*Now they know that everything you have given me comes from you. 8*For I gave them the words you gave me and they accepted them. They knew with certainty that I came from you, and they believed that you sent me. 9*I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours.

Jeff I gave you multiple verse on this will you address them for me?

[Billyray]

Matthew 26
26 And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body.
27 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;
28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Ephesians 5:25*Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

[Billyray]

Anyway, I noticed that you failed to find a verse that says "Jesus did not die for every single person."

Now are you ever going to give me an honest answer why you believe that God would send anyone to hell if Christ PAID for every single sin for every single person?

[Billyray]

Lets use a real world example of a debt that you own such as a house and you have a huge mortgage that you are unable to pay because you lost your ***. You have a friend that is willing and wants to help you. Below are two different scenarios.

1. The friend offers to pay your debt off completely but he does not do so because you refuse his offer.

2. The friend pays off your debt completely.

In scenario 1 the offer was made but the debt was not paid and you are still on the hook for every penny because you did not accept his offer. In scenario 2 the debt was paid in full and whether you accepted his offer or not you do not owe the bank a dime because your debt was paid in full. Which scenario best describes your view of the atonement, scenario 1 or scenario 2?

[dberrie2000]

Let's take a look at your verses one by one starting with this one since it is one of your favorite verses. Do you believe that "all" in this verse and in the surrounding text is referring to all men or all believers?

I believe "all men" in Romans5:18 is a reference to all men--as is all the verses that point to that:


Hebrews 2:9---King James Version (KJV)


9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.


1 Timothy 4:10---King James Version (KJV)


10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.



2 Peter 3:9---King James Version (KJV)


9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.



1 Timothy 2:4----King James Version (KJV)


4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.


***us 2:11---King James Version (KJV)


11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to [COLOR="#FF0000"]all men,


Romans 5:18----King James Version (KJV)


18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.


2 Corinthians 5:15---King James Version (KJV)


15 And that he died for [COLOR="#FF0000"]all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

[nrajeffreturns]

Matthew 26
26 And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body.
27 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;
28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Ephesians 5:25*Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

Your eisegesis that resulted in your incorrect Calvinistic conclusions is the result of some bad logic, as follows:

1, "Shed for many" doesn't necessarily mean a number less than all. If you have a total of 1000 dollars, and you spend it all on a TV, you can rightly say "I spent a lot of dollars on that TV." You did spend a lot, and you also spent it all. Both can be true.

2. Jesus did indeed give himself for the church, but saying that doesn't necessarily mean that He DIDN'T ALSO give himself for the unbelievers. It depends on the context. If you're preaching to a group of Baptists about the atonement, you can rightly tell them "Jesus gave His life for you Baptists." But that doesn't necessarily mean "ONLY for you Baptists." If you preach to the Methodists next week, you can rightly tell them "Jesus gave His life for you Methodists."

[nrajeffreturns]

Now are you ever going to give me an honest answer why you believe that God would send anyone to hell if Christ PAID for every single sin for every single person?

My answers have been honest ones. It's funny that you think they were dishonest answers. If I pay to get you into a movie but it's a movie that you don't like so you don't watch it, I still paid the price for it. Whether you get the benefit of it is up to you, not me.

[Billyray]

1, "Shed for many" doesn't necessarily mean a number less than all.

If I said there are "many" people who follow Christ would you take my statement to mean that every single person follows Christ?

[Billyray]

2. Jesus did indeed give himself for the church, but saying that doesn't necessarily mean that He DIDN'T ALSO give himself for the unbelievers.
But does the text say that he gave himself for the unbelievers in this verse?

[Billyray]

My answers have been honest ones. It's funny that you think they were dishonest answers. If I pay to get you into a movie but it's a movie that you don't like so you don't watch it, I still paid the price for it. Whether you get the benefit of it is up to you, not me.
Jeff I am sure that you see the problem but you haven't told me what is the basis for sending anyone to hell if every single sin for every single person has been paid for.

[Billyray]

I believe "all men" in Romans5:18 is a reference to all men--as is all the verses that point to that:

Romans 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Great. Now lets start at Romans 5:1 and note that Paul starts the verse off with "therefore" which means that he is summing up what he had just talked about in the prior chapter which was justification by faith.

Romans 5:1 Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we[a] have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,

In verse 1 does justification apply to every single person OR to those who come to Christ by faith?

[nrajeffreturns]

Lets use a real world example of a debt that you own such as a house and you have a huge mortgage that you are unable to pay because you lost your ***. You have a friend that is willing and wants to help you. Below are two different scenarios.

1. The friend offers to pay your debt off completely but he does not do so because you refuse his offer.

2. The friend pays off your debt completely.

In scenario 1 the offer was made but the debt was not paid and you are still on the hook for every penny because you did not accept his offer. In scenario 2 the debt was paid in full and whether you accepted his offer or not you do not owe the bank a dime because your debt was paid in full. Which scenario best describes your view of the atonement, scenario 1 or scenario 2?

Scenario 3: The friend pre-paid the cost of an awesome mansion for you, a long time ago, so if you want to live in it you just need to do what He wants you to do and you will end up living in it.

[Billyray]

Scenario 3: The friend pre-paid the cost of an awesome mansion for you, a long time ago, so if you want to live in it you just need to do what He wants you to do and you will end up living in it.
And in Scenario 3 that you propose the debt for his house was NOT paid. Jeff I am sure you realize the problem here but you are trying to side skirt around it because you have no good answer for me.

[dberrie2000]

And in Scenario 3 that you propose the debt for his house was NOT paid. Jeff I am sure you realize the problem here but you are trying to side skirt around it because you have no good answer for me.

The house being pre-paid does not rule out conditions that could be set in order that one might inherit the house. The person who pre-paid for the house could set any conditions he wished to--he was the one who paid for it.

[nrajeffreturns]

The house being pre-paid does not rule out conditions that could be set in order that one might inherit the house. The person who pre-paid for the house could set any conditions he wished to--he was the one who paid for it.

True. Also true is that Billy's question was not about debts. It was

"what is the basis for sending anyone to hell if every single sin for every single person has been paid for."

And we have answered that question. For any who missed it, the answer, again, is:

The basis is that even though Jesus paid the price (atoned) for all of our sins, it does not guarantee we will all get eternal life because no one forces us to benefit from that payment. We can make the atonement "of no effect" (I think the Bible mentions this) if that's what we want to do.

This isn't that complicated, Billy. It's FAR simpler to understand than, say, Trinitarianism. My kids can understand the concept of someone paying for your movie ticket but you choosing to waste it by not going to the movie.

THAT, AGAIN, is the BASIS for the idea that Jesus could have atoned for every single sin for every single person, yet some of them (or even all of them) could miss out on eternal life.

[Billyray]

The house being pre-paid does not rule out conditions that could be set in order that one might inherit the house. The person who pre-paid for the house could set any conditions he wished to--he was the one who paid for it.
But the house debt was NOT paid in that scenario. You or Jeff don't have a good answer for me do you? DB don't you see the problem yet?

[Billyray]

True. Also true is that Billy's question was not about debts. It was

"what is the basis for sending anyone to hell if every single sin for every single person has been paid for."

That is true. I was giving you a real world example to help you see the issue. But despite that you still don't seem to get it.


And we have answered that question. For any who missed it, the answer, again, is:

The basis is that even though Jesus paid the price (atoned) for all of our sins, it does not guarantee we will all get eternal life because no one forces us to benefit from that payment.
This is exact situation of scenario 2. . .In scenario 2 the debt was paid in full and whether you accepted his offer or not you do not owe the bank a dime because your debt was paid in full.

[nrajeffreturns]

This is exact situation of scenario 2. . .In scenario 2 the debt was paid in full and whether you accepted his offer or not you do not owe the bank a dime because your debt was paid in full.

So you're saying that you believe that scenario 2 is true doctrine? "The friend pays off your debt completely."

But you believe that Jesus FAILED to pay off ANY of the debt of most of the human race. Which is proof that your Jesus doesn't love most of the human race. He must hate most of us. Why would I want to worship someone like that?
You might as well write a scripture that says "The only reason that any of should love Him, is because He loved us first." Which means that there is no reason why most of us should love Him.


See where your belief ends up taking you? Into heresy. It's a heresy to believe that there's no reason why most of us should love Jesus.

Now look at LDS doctrine and see how much better it is: In LDS doctrine, we all have a good reason to love Jesus because He atoned for the sins of all humans who sin. Therefore, if we choose to not love Him, we have no excuse. We all OWE Jesus for what He has done for ALL of us. In LDS doctrine, there is no good reason to not love Jesus.

See how that makes your belief a real loser?

[Billyray]

So you're saying that you believe that scenario 2 is true doctrine? "The friend pays off your debt completely."

No I am saying you claim to believe that Jesus PAID for every sin for every person. Yet on the other hand you must not believe that every person is saved. This is a conflicting belief

[dberrie2000]

dberrie---Then why is that your pat answer when I post scriptures that have God giving His grace to those who obey Him? IE---

1 John 1:7---King James Version (KJV)

7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

If receiving the Blood of Christ unto the forgiveness of sins is conditional upon walking in the light--then works are a consideration in eternal life.


Billyray----God gives his grace all the time to both believers and unbelievers.


Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post--You believe that God gives His Blood unto the forgiveness of sins to those who are unbelievers?


Jesus died for his sheep.

If He only died for His sheep--then His Blood really does not go to both the believers and unbelievers--right?

The scripture above states the Blood of Christ goes, as a condition, to those who walk in His light--do you believe that? Or is that just another works-based religion to you?

[Billyray]

If He only died for His sheep--then His Blood really does not go to both the believers and unbelievers--right?

If Jesus PAID for every sin for every single person can you tell me the basis for sending anyone to Hell?

[Billyray]

The scripture above states the Blood of Christ goes, as a condition, to those who walk in His light--do you believe that? Or is that just another works-based religion to you?
Those who follow Christ ARE believers. Right. And No--Christianity is not a works based salvation, However Mormonism IS a works based salvation. Why can't you seem to come out and admit that you believe in a works based salvation?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post--If He only died for His sheep--then His Blood really does not go to both the believers and unbelievers--right?


If Jesus PAID for every sin for every single person can you tell me the basis for sending anyone to Hell?

You have asked--and I have answered that question before.

Again--the answer--Because they do not obey the Redeemer--who sets the conditions of who enters into life. Christ dying for all mankind did not give anyone eternal life--but it did offer all an opportunity for all to inherit life--through His grace--which He gives to those who obey Him.


Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)

9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;


Billyray--God died for all men. That provided an opportunity for all men to inherit life--by absolving all from the consequences which automatically befell all men due to the Fall.


Romans 5:18---King James Version (KJV)

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

[Billyray]

You have asked--and I have answered that question before.

Again--the answer--Because they do not obey the Redeemer--who sets the conditions of who enters into life. Christ dying for all mankind did not give anyone eternal life--but it did offer all an opportunity for all to inherit life--through His grace--which He gives to those who obey Him.

But it is a sin to disobey Christ. Wasn't this sin paid for by Christ?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post---You have asked--and I have answered that question before.

Again--the answer--Because they do not obey the Redeemer--who sets the conditions of who enters into life. Christ dying for all mankind did not give anyone eternal life--but it did offer all an opportunity for all to inherit life--through His grace--which He gives to those who obey Him.


Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)

9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;


Billyray--God died for all men. That provided an opportunity for all men to inherit life--by absolving all from the consequences which automatically befell all men due to the Fall.


Romans 5:18---King James Version (KJV)

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.


But it is a sin to disobey Christ. Wasn't this sin paid for by Christ?

All sins of mankind was paid for by Christ in His Atonement. That accomplaised two things:

1) It absolved(justified) all men of the automatic condemnation brought upon all men due to the Fall.

2) It placed Christ as the Redeemer and Savior of mankind--and gave Him the right to set the conditions for His grace unto life.

Billyray--don't confuse Atoning for sins with the forgiveness of sins. The Atonement for the sins of the world did not forgive sins--if it did--then why were all men commanded to repent and be baptized for the remission of sins after the Atonement?

The Atonement did make the remission of sins possible--through the conditions set by the Redeemer:


Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)

38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.


A doctrine contrary to faith alone theology.

[Billyray]

The Atonement for the sins of the world did not forgive sins.

So Jesus did NOT pay for ALL sins for every single person? Is that really your answer?

[Billyray]

The Atonement for the sins of the world did not forgive sins--if it did--then why were all men commanded to repent and be baptized for the remission of sins after the Atonement?
We are given lots of commandments and NONE of us keep them. If salvation was based on our personal righteousness then not a single person would be saved.

[James Banta]

All sins of mankind was paid for by Christ in His Atonement. That accomplaised two things:

1) It absolved(justified) all men of the automatic condemnation brought upon all men due to the Fall.

2) It placed Christ as the Redeemer and Savior of mankind--and gave Him the right to set the conditions for His grace unto life.

Billyray--don't confuse Atoning for sins with the forgiveness of sins. The Atonement for the sins of the world did not forgive sins--if it did--then why were all men commanded to repent and be baptized for the remission of sins after the Atonement?

The Atonement did make the remission of sins possible--through the conditions set by the Redeemer:


Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)

38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.


A doctrine contrary to faith alone theology.

As Christians we strive to make the whole of the Bible work together as one non contradictory revelation. It would seem that the LDS really don't care if it contradicts.. After all it is an imperfect book since Jesus didn't have the power to keep His promise that His words would never p*** away.. The high leadership of the LDS church has had different ideas of the veracity of the Bible.. Instead of trusting the promises of Jesus the attack the record He promised to protect. It is recorded that:

Who knows that even one verse of the Bible has escaped pollution, so as to convey the same sense now that it did in the original? (Orson Pratt, Divine Authority of the Book of Mormon, p. 47)

How is it that so many of the verses of the King James Bible have appeared in the BofM without ant modification? But still Joseph Smith confirmed the teaching of Pratt saying:

From sundry revelations which had been received, it was apparent that many important points touching the salvation of men, had been taken from the Bible or lost before it was compiled. (Teaching of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 11)

It is LDS doctrine that Jesus is a liar.. By insisting that the Bible is corrupt the promises of Jesus to ensure that His words would continue for all time are negated as lies.. This is done by the foundational teaches of the church but it doesn't end there. Mark E. Peterson said:

Many insertions were made, some of them 'slanted' for selfish purposes, while at times deliberate falsifications and fabrications were perpetrated (As Translated Correctly, p. 4).

You can agree with such men or you can trust Jesus that his words would never p*** away. You can trust the Holy Spirit (I Peter 1:23, 25) that the word of God endures forever..

If that is the case you must find away to make Acts 2:38, John 3:16, and Eph 2:8-9 all agree.. Jesus taught that all who believe would have everlasting life, The Holy Spirit through Paul taught that salvation is gained by God's grace through Faith in Jesus. How is it then that the good work of baptism has any place in salvation? Acts 2:38 does work if we allow it to use a different meaning than what you have been taught.. Allow the for in for the remission of sins. To mean because of. We repent turning our hearts and minds to God, submitting to baptism BECAUSE OF (for) the remission of sins God has provided.. Then it all makes complete sense. In the context of the whole of the Bible it agrees.. But are the LDS interested in consistency? Or will they insist that their interpretation of the verse that adds contradiction to the Bible the right way to go? Seeing that mormonism see so much error in the Bible I doubt they will agree. They would rather see contradiction than believe the salvation of Men, from spiritual death, is not subject to, in a major part, their obedience.. IHS jim

[dberrie2000]

As Christians we strive to make the whole of the Bible work together as one non contradictory revelation.

Such as teaching faith alone as the post and pillar of salvation--when the Bible teaches to the exact contrary?


James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)


24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone

[Billyray]

Such as teaching faith alone as the post and pillar of salvation--when the Bible teaches to the exact contrary?

How is it contradictory?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post--Such as teaching faith alone as the post and pillar of salvation--when the Bible teaches to the exact contrary?


How is it contradictory?


James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)

24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

[James Banta]

James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)

24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.


That is teaching the same thing Paul taught in Ephesians..

Eph 2:10
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

So God has chosen that we should walk in good work.. How is that different than saying a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. But still remember that Jesus and Paul taught that salvation come to those that believe.. Paul make it even more clear in Eph 2:8-9.. Remember he teaches us that saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. So while good work show that we have true faith in Jesus it is the faith nor the works that saves.. Even mormonism teaches that we are saved by grace. Paul explains the difference between grace and works.

Romans 11:6 NASB
But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.

Biblically it's either Grace or it's works.. It can't be both.. All works can do is to manifest living faith..

db, why are you using James 2? I was told that James 2:10 is ridiculous and not really scripture.. Since Verse 10 is in the oldest m****cripts with the rest of James. I don't understand LDS reluctance to agree with the Holy Spirit that if we commit any sin we are guilty of the whole Law before a Holy God.. If you don't agree either GET OUT OF JAMES 2.. IHS jim

[dberrie2000]

All works can do is to manifest living faith..

Is a living faith necessary for salvation?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post--Such as teaching faith alone as the post and pillar of salvation--when the Bible teaches to the exact contrary?


Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View PostHow is it contradictory?

James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.