John 1:1 real problems in there for Trinitarians

[Tom Boots]

I ask this question to Trinitarians is God a Trinity or not?
Is God able to be seen or not?
Is God a man?
Is God flesh and bones?
Is God able to sit face to face with himself as another being?
Where was the Holy Spirit God in all this about John 1:1?

So God is something never called or defined as such as they do as three persons or a Trinity
Nor is God seen as a man.

Or able to sit face to face with another Called God, since only the Father is the true God.

ThatGod is not flesh and bones.

And no Another Spirit is with him

[MacG]

MacG interpolation type thingy Jn1:1ff: "In the beginning was the Me. The Me was with the Other, and the Me was the Other...the Me was in the beginning with the Other...The Me became flesh and dwelt among you and you saw the Me's glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Other, full of grace and truth".

Phil 2 in part"...do not merely look out for your own personal interests, but also for the interests of others. Have this at***ude in yourselves which was also in the Me, who, although the Me existed in the form of the Other, did not regard equality with the Other a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, ..."

The real word in NASB: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God...And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Phil 2 in part "...do not merely look out for your own personal interests, but also for the interests of others. Have this at***ude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, ..."

[Tom Boots]

Who or what is God in Jn 1:1

[MacG]

Who or what is God in Jn 1:1

With: (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/with)
a —used as a function word to indicate combination, accompaniment, presence, or addition <heat milk with honey> <went there with her> <his money, with his wife's, comes to a million>

God AND the Word who became flesh.

[Tom Boots]

So you believe in God and another God who became flesh, which is two gods.
Do you hold a third god with them yeah or nay?
Seems like I am pulling teeth to get a straight answer, you Socinian?, Trinitarian, Binatarian?

[Tom Boots]

Have you taken a look that pros ton theon means "in things pertaining to God"?
That three other times it us used in scriptures it is translated as such.
Heb. 2:17, 5:1, Rom. 15:17.

[MacG]

So you believe in God and another God who became flesh, which is two gods.
Do you hold a third god with them yeah or nay?
Seems like I am pulling teeth to get a straight answer, you Socinian?, Trinitarian, Binatarian?

I was commenting what the verse says. Two that are with each other. Not something along the lines of there only being Jesus:

"In the beginning was Jesus, and Jesus was with Jesus, and Jesus was Jesus. Jesus was in the beginning with Jesus."

Unless you are pulling your own teeth, please keep your pliers on the exam tray :)

[MacG]

u a greek scholar?

[Tom Boots]

Smart mouth huh? That what you are ? and yes I know what Greek says, Pros ton theon "in things pertaining to God" that what one needs in John 1:1 is para ton theon for it to be "with".
Take a look at the three other places that pros ton theon is found in Heb. 2:17,5:1,Rom. 15:17, pros ton theon is translated as such, but a Trinitarian trying to get one god with another god would like you to believe in god with God.
The Word was not another or a separate god, there is only One God.

I ask if you hold is this the Trinity or not?

If. The Trinity and you hold the Trinity as God, then you must render it as...
IN THE BEGINNING WAS THE WORD AND THE WORD WAS WITH THE TRINITY AND THE WORD WAS THE TRINITY.
Or you can insert Father in for Trinity if You hold GOd in there was Father!
I hold Jesus is to be God in the p***age, but that Word is still to written as Word , for it is the Logos...idea, thought, expression of him.

God is not two or three members, he is one person Gal. 3:20 Greek Grammar of heis theos -one God a masculine one a sole numerical one as one person.
SeeAmplified version even stating it correctly.

My pliers can easily pull your teeth.

[cheachea]

Tom Boots are you a Mormon, Jehovah's Witness or a Oneness Pentecostal ? What Cult are you apart of ?


The Trinity is an established Christian Doctrine and Nothing you say is going to change that. Ask God The Holy Spirit to Lead you into all truth and He will.


Gen 1:26- and "God" said, let "US" make man in "OUR" image and in "OUR" likeness.

[MacG]

My pliers can easily pull your teeth.

Be nice, pride goes before a fall.

Are you a Greek scholar?

[Tom Boots]

Well it depends on what you mean by scholar, I know Greek, have studied Koine Greek of the Bible and know what I speak of when I do.
Maybe more a student, but know that "para ton theon" is not in John 1:1 is.
Now do you answer thread posts or just post meaningless gibberish.
I see you still have not tried.
Just wondering if you are going to get into a conversation and discuss the Trinity errors and Roman Catholic nonsense that, that religion invented, from it's originator and father of such, TERTULLIAN.

[RealFakeHair]

Well it depends on what you mean by scholar, I know Greek, have studied Koine Greek of the Bible and know what I speak of when I do.
Maybe more a student, but know that "para ton theon" is not in John 1:1 is.
Now do you answer thread posts or just post meaningless gibberish.
I see you still have not tried.
Just wondering if you are going to get into a conversation and discuss the Trinity errors and Roman Catholic nonsense that, that religion invented, from it's originator and father of such, TERTULLIAN.

As the man said, "It's all Greek to me." Man I am glad I like playing golf, if I could only be in three golf course at the same time, Now that is a true Trinity, but a foursome is better.
Well anyways, I don't know what John 1;1 has to do with the Trinity, but heck keep studing the Greek language....

[Tom Boots]

I am part of the only true religion, the Chruch of Jesus Christ, a Apostolic Oneness Pentecostal Christian of Monarchian doctrine and Jesus name baptized, Spirit filled faith.

The Trinity is not truth, it can be established in error from it's father and philosopher Tertullian a heretic and excommunicant.

There is no Trinity, no deity was called such by Jesus, Apostles, Disciples or the saints of the 1st and 2nd centuries, there was no one teaching such till the godless man Tertullian coined the name and followers of gentile pagan ideas started to follower a three god view using Christian words and phrases.
[I take it you are one of those and cannot see the truth of Who Jesus really is].

I got the Holy Ghost and it led me away from that bogus three faced god and belief in poor little Jesus, the praying, needing help, dying and getting bailed out form the underworld by two other part god felllows.

Funny the God who gave that word to the Jews, his people never had them believe in a deity called Trinity, explained as three beings, told to worship such and yet you will tell them and us true Christians that your god is made up of three seperate persons who sit face to face.

Gen. 1:26 is answered by 1:27 and until you read the next p***age, you will never understand what you thinks supports your view from the former.

GOD SPOKE IN A PLURAL OF MAJESTY AND OR PLURAL OF DELIBERATION.
That means he spoke outwardly to the heavenly host, the Angels who were present when he did create all things at the beginning or prior to time or He spoke inwardly, to himself as men do and council with themselves as God does Eph. 1:11.
Jews held those ideas, Jews didn't try and find three gods and follow the gentile minds as you are doing with it's polytheistic godhead.

"And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:...
God did make man and all mankind after his image [the express image of God, is Jesus Christ his only begotten Son Heb.1:3}
most angels also made in such and seen as men.
make does not mean angels created, but helped in the making of man and mankind as we see today, by being at times ministering spirit unto us and leading as God directed them.
...vs 27 "So God (not gods or angels) created man in his own image, in the image of God created him; male and female created he them."
God created alone, he has all power alone and what he delagates out is his own choosing and will.
God councelled with himself and created man and all this world for such mankind.
God is one person and the Bible NEVER EVER SAYS GOD IS THREE PERSONS.
God is a Holy One, not a unholy three!
GOD is the LORD!, there is only one LORD, not many as Trinitarians have.


God did not make man in a three person image as you try to say, but in one person image, Jesus Christ, his Son a perfect sinless man, a man of flesh and bones, a real physical body or tabernacle of God, not God himself, but the Son of such God.
Look in a mirror, do you see one man before you a man of body , soul and Spirit given by God/ or do you see three men standing in that mirror?

PLEASE ANSWER, before you go running with the ball you like to carry, are you one person or three persons?
ANSWER, don't him haw around and give me a run around.
ONE OR THREE?

God according to scripture is ONE PERSON!, not three persons!!
*** 13:8 KJV says so.
Gal. 3:20 Amplified version says so.
and scripture is clear , there is only one God the Father and not two other gods with him called Son and Holy Ghost.
GOD IS SPIRIT, let that sink in, GOD IS SPIRIT, not Spirits, not a man and a bird, but God is Spirit and Invisible, not visible as you people try to make, by making his only begotten Son, himself.

ONE GOD, not a pack of them running wild in the streets and flying about and saying the third person is a bird or that one of the three is what God says he is not, A MAN.

[Tom Boots]

I am playing in a Golf outing today, 4 man scramble, I came in third 5 years ago in this outing and two years ago one closest to the pin at 170 yds (2 feet away).
Last 5 years I keep playing better and better (shoot in mid 80's), broke 80 last year for first time, had two 80's as well on even harder courses and playing more, you can only improve by playing and practicing (which I hate really just hitting ***** at range).
Getting Senior rates and hitting off Senior tees now, hit them straight and last year had 2 fist place finishes and a 3rd and one a bunch of stuff in these outings.

NOW I do study Greek and the Bible in English my language and reject a trinity, for the Bible says nary a thing about it or even hints.

Jesus is all, He is LORD GOD ALMIGHTY.

[RealFakeHair]

I am part of the only true religion, the Chruch of Jesus Christ, a Apostolic Oneness Pentecostal Christian of Monarchian doctrine and Jesus name baptized, Spirit filled faith. Sign, Tom Boots. Oh, really? I never heard that before.
My first question is, are you 14 years old?
I remember when I was 14 years old, I thought I knew everything, but later on I found out one thing, I didn't know everything.
I am glad you are spirit filled. I got up to about 2% and, well I backslide to about 1/2 of 1 %, and been stuck there every since.
After about 40 years I did gain some wisdom, and common sense, and believe me that counts for the 1 and 1/2 % lost.
Now as for the Holy Spirit, here is where I trad lightly, you know the one sin not forgiven. I would hate to say I was lead by the Holy Spirit and later on find out it was some kind of other spirit that had a hold on me. This is where wisdom come into play.
God is Spirit. Jesus is the First and the last, and God is the First and the Last.
I don't know where oneness come from, but I do know one is the loneliness number I've ever knew. I just made that up, lol.
Now as far as him hawing, hey what else is there to do on the internet?

[RealFakeHair]

I am playing in a Golf outing today, 4 man scramble, I came in third 5 years ago in this outing and two years ago one closest to the pin at 170 yds (2 feet away).
Last 5 years I keep playing better and better (shoot in mid 80's), broke 80 last year for first time, had two 80's as well on even harder courses and playing more, you can only improve by playing and practicing (which I hate really just hitting ***** at range).
Getting Senior rates and hitting off Senior tees now, hit them straight and last year had 2 fist place finishes and a 3rd and one a bunch of stuff in these outings.

NOW I do study Greek and the Bible in English my language and reject a trinity, for the Bible says nary a thing about it or even hints.

Jesus is all, He is LORD GOD ALMIGHTY.

See we have something in common, I hope you make a hole in one and win the car, if not the sleeve of golf ***** aint bad.

[cheachea]

Tom Boots read this verse 1John 5:7 -


For there are "Three" that bear witness in heaven: "the Father?, "the Word", and "the Holy Spirit"; and These Three Are "ONE".

[cheachea]

God did not make man in a three person image as you try to say,




That's the thing though, Your Spirit, Soul and Body are all separate and distinct yet they are all You at the end of the day. When your spirit wants to do something but your flesh wants to do something else it shows you that there are separate natures with in man himself but are still the one man. The Father is God. The Lord Jesus Christ is God and The Holy Spirit is God and They ARE One.

[Tom Boots]

So you will not answer any posts I post in this thread, not the original one, not the specific question and points to you.
You going to say that you are three persons?
That saying you are BODY-SOUL AND SPIRIT MAKES YOU THREE PERSONS??
C'mon that is absurd.
Jesus is he three persons?does that mean you actually have 9 persons in the godhead!?
That sounds like you are some Mormon polytheist.

Jesus is the only true God and FATHER! John 17:1-3.

The Holy Spirit is not a different Spirit than God's own Spirit and in action.
The Spirit is the HOLY SPIRIT, not a third member of a triad.

I don't personally think any of you have a clue what person or persons mean, you make yourself three persons, not one person with three distinctions of you and not a person that as A.T.ROBERTSON says about John 1:1 that you can be face to face with your self!
Oh my is that funny.

THERE IS ONLY ONE GOD AND HE IS THE FATHER AND THE FATHER OF THE SON, the Son is not God, was not called God save by a errant translation choice by men trying to provide some evidence of a Trinity in Heb. 1:8, THOUGH REFUTED BY THE HEBREW IT COMES FROM IN PSALMS, the Greek meaning, the 4 oldest English versions and the evidence in Hebrews 1:, which is speaking of a man and not God as Christ Jesus.

[Tom Boots]

You apparently don't know that 1 JN 5:17 IS CONSIDERED THEE MOST SPURIOUS TEXT IN ANY BIBLE!
WHY?
Do you know why?
I do!
It is because that verse is not written in any Greek text till the 13th century!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Is not found, save in the Codex Montforti.
I bet you didn't know that Erasmus, the author of the TEXTUS RECEPTUS in his first two editions of his writing did not have it in the text!
He was forced by the CATHOLIC mother religion to insert it, OR ELSE.
He told them they had to come up with it in Greek, they obliged and found one in DUBLIN IRELAND of all places, WELL THAT IS MIGHTY STRANGE A DOCUMENT FROM THE 1200'S {aka 13th century} in IRELAND and it's arena of Catholic stronghold found one after he asked for one and not from any earlier century or somewhere even remotely close to Israel, neighboring countries, Italy, Greece, Middle East.
AND TO BE CENTURIES REMOVED AND NO OTHER MSS TO SUPPORT IT.
Why most modern versions reject that verse as Authentic and include it or put it in parentheses.

Your people had to mislead and write it in to prop up a evil triad of three gods masquerading as One True God.

The verse is rejected, it is false and you were duped by a horrific system of hate and THREE gods.

See Adam Clarke's commentary on the verse, it has not eve been refuted and that is from the early 19th century.

[Tom Boots]

Hey realfakehair, My team shot 70 two under and I hit a 40 foot putt to take longest putt in the outing and got a 15 ball pack of Pinnacle Gold Yellow optic *****, and did so as the leadoff first putting guy and not getting a read from others.
6433 yds par 72 course.

[Tom Boots]

no, not 14 at all.
God is complete by himself, it was his decision to make anything, in heaven or a earth with mankind and it's creation.

Oneness means a couple of things, first off we as followers called such is based on our view that God is one and not a plurality of beings, that we are believers then in ONE TRUE GOD, not a threesome,
and
regarding God, that he is one and thus oneness is the view of God and not a triad threeness or Trinity view.

Oneness were called by many names from past ages, CHRISTIANS, Monarchians, Modalists, Cathari, Jesus only, Oneness have been called many times Apostolics and also by leaders names during times past and regions they were from.

BLASPHEMY OF THE HOLY GHOST IS STATING THE ACTIONS OF GOD IS ATTRIBUTED TO THE DEVIL.
It is not saying I believe God lead me to do or say something.

I believe without a doubt I am led by the Holy Spirit, I know I was filled with the Baptism with the Holy Ghost as the scriptures show and have varying Gifts of the Spirit active in my life and at different times, different ones.

If you don't know who Oneness are and what we teach, you may investigate and find we are the true religion and saints of the Lord Jesus Christ.

[MacG]

I am playing in a Golf outing today, 4 man scramble, I came in third 5 years ago in this outing and two years ago one closest to the pin at 170 yds (2 feet away).
Last 5 years I keep playing better and better (shoot in mid 80's), broke 80 last year for first time, had two 80's as well on even harder courses and playing more, you can only improve by playing and practicing (which I hate really just hitting ***** at range).
Getting Senior rates and hitting off Senior tees now, hit them straight and last year had 2 fist place finishes and a 3rd and one a bunch of stuff in these outings.

NOW I do study Greek and the Bible in English my language and reject a trinity, for the Bible says nary a thing about it or even hints.

Jesus is all, He is LORD GOD ALMIGHTY.

I play in the mid 70's, any hotter and I don't go out.

[MacG]

Well it depends on what you mean by scholar, I know Greek, have studied Koine Greek of the Bible and know what I speak of when I do.
Maybe more a student, but know that "para ton theon" is not in John 1:1 is.
Now do you answer thread posts or just post meaningless gibberish.
I see you still have not tried.
Just wondering if you are going to get into a conversation and discuss the Trinity errors and Roman Catholic nonsense that, that religion invented, from it's originator and father of such, TERTULLIAN.

Tom thanks for your reply. Since you seem to be a mid level belt in Greek and I have not even bought a Ghi I need to defer to others in regards to you ***ertion. Can you explain why this guy says otherwise? http://baptistgadfly.blogspot.com/2012/04/pros-ton-theon.html Thanks.

[MacG]

I ask this question to Trinitarians is God a Trinity or not? Maybe we can figure it out.


Is God able to be seen or not?

Yes and no. jn14:8 Philip said to him, “Lord, show us the Father, and we will be satisfied.” Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you all this time, Philip, and you still do not know me? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? "
John 6:46 "Not that anyone has seen the Father, except the One who is from God; He has seen the Father." Seems neither the one from God nor the Father is God here unless they both are.


Is God a man?

Yes and no. Jn1:14 "And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us" Jn4:24"God is spirit"


Is God flesh and bones?

There is one equal to God who became flesh and bone. Phil 2


Is God able to sit face to face with himself as another being?

There is only one God but then excepting the One who is from God; He has seen the Father." John 6:46 Sounds like He is with the Father. Jn17:5 Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was. REV1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him


Where was the Holy Spirit God in all this about John 1:1?

Not there but in the immediate context of verse 14 Jn1:14 "And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us" via Luke 1 “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you".

[Tom Boots]

I was going to ask you what you got on the back nine when you played 18, but that was a good one,
Yesterday it was 46 with wind chill at 40.

[Tom Boots]

Greek studier and student not going to be a scholar.
I am a History scholar.
I am sexual scholar, matter of fact a expert.

I have studied Greek and Biblical languages in college.

I also read materials of those who do debate Trinitarians that know more about such than me, Dr. Marvin Treece, Talmadge French, Jerry Hayes.

[Tom Boots]

I notice in reading that he does not deal with the other three places that
"pros ton theon" is used, I find that interesting, why avoid when anyone reading the Greek and comparing the usage in HEB. 2:17, 5:1 AND ROM. 15:17 finds
"in things pertaing to God".
Now the fact is this though, that it is the extrabiblical language of Trinitarians that amazes me and hoodwinks unsuspecting Trinitarians into believing that all these are biblical, that it says what Trinity scholars and Ministers say.
i.e. Trinity, no place is it found, yet a whole doctrine is built upon it, the Hebrew man never taught it.
The earliest of known Christians never espoused such, if you study and look for who could be cl***ified Trinitarian holding a Trinity view of God, one must reject that any of the Jews held such O.T. or N.T. and that any 1st century Christians held such.
So MACG tell me who by name is of your camp in the second century, tell me who you count as your Ministers and holding your faith, but make sure you study, before you pop out the names of those your camp runs to and then must run away from when we see what they really held.
JUSTIN MARTYR, ORIGEN, TERTULLIAN.
I realize by mid 3rd century your side had taken over and suppressed Monarchians, but we held the Bishopric of Rome and Smyrna and Antioch and other places well before the first Known Trinitarian was known {Tertullian}.

When it comes to debating the ENGLISH scriptures translated by those who put it in our language, Oneness fair very well and of those I have attended, gotten tapes audio and video or read any books or transcripts, Oneness win hands down.

[cheachea]

Tom Boots you have already lost yet you refuse to listen. I showed you where you are wrong using scripture but you still refuse to listen. Ask The Holy Spirit to reveal all Truth to You and He Will.

In the end you are just like all the other Heretical Non-TRINITARIAN Cults out there. You fit in with the Mormons, JW's, Adoptionism, Arianism, and Docetism. You sound like you fall in to the Sabellianism Heresy.

At the End of the day you are just Wrong . You believe Heresies that have already been rejected for almost 2,000 years.

[Tom Boots]

You may want to wake upand smell the Roses, you didn't refute me, Irefuted your posts and Trinitarians.
Sabellius was a saint of God and that God is Jesus.
There is no Trinity because your church used force to come in power doesn't mean we are heretics, just that we are are not you folks and don't follow three god heresy.
Irefuted your1 Jn 5:7 post and Gen. 1:26, you cannot even answer my posts as see in all the posts above.

[cheachea]

You may want to wake upand smell the Roses, you didn't refute me, Irefuted your posts and Trinitarians.
.
Nope Wrong Again.

[MacG]

I notice in reading that he does not deal with the other three places that
"pros ton theon" is used, I find that interesting, why avoid when anyone reading the Greek and comparing the usage in HEB. 2:17, 5:1 AND ROM. 15:17 finds
"in things pertaing to God".


Not sure about why he did not go on about the other three. Since he does not say it is speculation to say he avoided them. Did you notice the he referenced Romans 5:1? Here is a whole list of the use of pros. (http://www.blueletterbible.org/search/translationResults.cfm?criteria=with*+G4314&page=4&t=KJV). Most often is it used as 'with' and pertaining to only six times(KJV) and only in the Hebrews verses you mention not the Romans p***age. What rule are you using to derive pertaining to God in Jn1

[Tom Boots]

He did deal with the three verses that speak of pros ton theon, in no other place is pros ton theon translated WITH as Jn.1:1.
I believe they use the smoke and mirrors in showing it in other places to hide there not showing how it was used in modifying Theos.

I believe it is attempt to have the multiple god view.

[MacG]

He did deal with the three verses that speak of pros ton theon, in no other place is pros ton theon translated WITH as Jn.1:1.
I believe they use the smoke and mirrors in showing it in other places to hide there not showing how it was used in modifying Theos.

I believe it is attempt to have the multiple god view.

Did you re-read the blog again? First you said he did not deal with it then you said he did. I read it again and saw this this time "2 Corinthians 5:8 "pros ton kurion" (“with the Lord”)".

[Tom Boots]

No regarding the one true God and the Trinity three gods I am not wrong.
I came out of that and was glad I did, for my studies have shown me a false antichrist church which has the blood of saints on it's hands and what it wants (freedom to worship as one sees fits) it didn't allow others to participate.
Torture, hate, thievery, murder, all seen for many a century and hidden behind the facade of being a church.

You have struck out with Gen. 1:26, 1 Jn 5:7, why don't you try the third strike whiffing for a good strike out.
Or sit there and get caught looking as I continue to post, JESUS is The Lord God Almighty and not a weak second deity or three.

[Tom Boots]

Theos was not modified in any other p***age as Jn 1:1, go retread it.
he didn't want to deal with what exposed his position, by not posting the three other p***ages as I mentioned, that tells me he wanted to intentionally misinform, or he really didn't know Greek as much as he Put on.

Pros ton Theon = in things pertaining to God .
Heb 2:17,5:1, and yes Rom. 5:17.
John 1:1 should have been the same.

Now please tell me do you believe God is The/A Trinity?
If so you must change your belief thatGod is such and make up a different view to fit your doctrine than what you folks say you believe.

Is God three persons? Or not? Is God three beings as stated by so many or are those Trinitarians in error or is it you are in error?

Tell me MacG do you have any books written by Oneness ministers or authors or read any? And what might they be, I know Trinitarians have done little study about us Apostolics and or our Doctrine.

Shot 83 Sa****ay best round this year.

[Tom Boots]

I ask this question to Trinitarians is God a Trinity or not?
Is God able to be seen or not?
Is God a man?
Is God flesh and bones?
Is God able to sit face to face with himself as another being?
Where was the Holy Spirit God in all this about John 1:1?

I think we need to discuss your many errors in the p***age.
See it is easy to just ramble on about what you want to say in writings and books, but when actually questioned and exposed to the many errors in the verse, well , that is a way different story.

So lets talk and lets see the real problem with the three gods and not One God doctrine.

Would be nice to see a response to questions I ask.

Different versions

w) In the beginning was the word, that is, God’s Son, and the word was at God, and God was the word. (p) In the beginning was the word, and the word was at God, and God was the word.
(t) ¶ In the beginning was the [that] word, and the [that] word was with God: and God was the [that] word. (g) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
(k) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Is God our Father as scripture says?
Is God a Trinity
Is God his own Son?
What is Son?
What is the beginning?
What is pertaining or with God?
Does the scriptures have in the Greek, Son for the Word in the p***age?
Is God three persons or one person?[give the scripture please].

[Tom Boots]

Maybe we can figure it out.



Yes and no. jn14:8 Philip said to him, “Lord, show us the Father, and we will be satisfied.” Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you all this time, Philip, and you still do not know me? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? "
John 6:46 "Not that anyone has seen the Father, except the One who is from God; He has seen the Father." Seems neither the one from God nor the Father is God here unless they both are.

Tom
No man hath seen God at anytime Jn 1:18
The only way you see the Father is by
Looking at the EXPRESS IMAGE, because God=Spirit was enfleshed 2Cor. 5:19, 1 Tim.3:16, Jn 14:10
God is invisible, his express image, the Son of God is visible.

{The only true God is the FATHER, Jn 17:1-3}.

Yes and no. Jn1:14 "And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us" Jn4:24"God is spirit"

Tom:God is not a man, Num. 23:19, 1Sam. 15:29,*** 9:32.
The Word=Logos is idea, thought, expression as in the mind, it is not a second god person, a being with the Father, GOd's Logos was in time....TIME made or became flesh, meaning it was not such before it was made such.
God is Spirit, not flesh Jn4:24



There is one equal to God who became flesh and bone. Phil 2

Tom: There is none equal, doesn't say such.
God was indwelling the Son.
God was Spirit, not flesh and Jesus said such Luke 24:39.
God was in Christ.2 Cor. 5:19
The Son was the Man Christ Jesus 1 Tim. 3:16

There is only one God but then excepting the One who is from God; He has seen the Father." John 6:46 Sounds like He is with the Father. Jn17:5 Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was. REV1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him

Tom:There is not God and another person or being or God with him.


Not there but in the immediate context of verse 14 Jn1:14 "And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us" via Luke 1 “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you".

Tom:No Spirit there? Is God the Father not SPIRIT?
Put the thinking cap on, Spirit was there, it was The Lord God, which is Spirit and our Father, not the bird, not another third person.

[MacG]

Theos was not modified in any other p***age as Jn 1:1, go retread it.
he didn't want to deal with what exposed his position, by not posting the three other p***ages as I mentioned, that tells me he wanted to intentionally misinform, or he really didn't know Greek as much as he Put on.

Pros ton Theon = in things pertaining to God .
Heb 2:17,5:1, and yes Rom. 5:17.
John 1:1 should have been the same.

As Pros ton is rendered "with" so many more times than pertaining to, which grammar rules would disallow the following:

Rom 15:17 ""Therefore in Christ Jesus I have found reason for boasting in with God."

Heb 2:17 "Therefore, He had to be made like His brethren in all things, so that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest with God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people."

Heb 5:1 "For every high priest taken from among men is appointed on behalf of men with God, in order to offer both gifts and sacrifices for sins;


2 Corinthians 5:8 "pros ton kurion" (“with the Lord”): 8 We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord" or "8 We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home pertaining to the Lord"

Why is pros ton rendered as 'with' in 2 Cor?



Now please tell me do you believe God is The/A Trinity?
If so you must change your belief thatGod is such and make up a different view to fit your doctrine than what you folks say you believe.

Is God three persons? Or not? Is God three beings as stated by so many or are those Trinitarians in error or is it you are in error?

Just examining Scripture here. There is but one God.


Tell me MacG do you have any books written by Oneness ministers or authors or read any? And what might they be, I know Trinitarians have done little study about us Apostolics and or our Doctrine. I have not.


Shot 83 Sa****ay best round this year.

Always feels good to do your best. My last outing on Mother's Day, I had two holes in one, the windmill was usually kind. ;)

[MacG]

He did deal with the three verses that speak of pros ton theon, in no other place is pros ton theon translated WITH as Jn.1:1.
I believe they use the smoke and mirrors in showing it in other places to hide there not showing how it was used in modifying Theos.

I believe it is attempt to have the multiple god view.

Even though he a Baptist, I think you two are in agreement that there is but one God - not multiple. Perhaps you mistated?

[cheachea]

It's already an established Doctrine of ALL OF CHRISTIANITY . You are Wrong. Just Except that you are wrong and that you belong to a Cult.

The Trinity is an established Doctrine of The Eastern Orthodox, All of Protestantism, and Roman Catholicism.


ONLY THE CULTS REJECT THE DOCTRINE. REALIZE THIS. THEN REALIZE THAT YOU ARE APART OF THE CULTS.

[Tom Boots]

It is established by force, it is established by false gentile pagan doctrine with people who accepted a lie, not by scripture.
Also history shows that you folks deny Jesus as the one true God and make him a god a second of three.
Note you cannot find three persons a triad a trinity baptismal formula used in bible.
We are the church trinitarianhsm a fraud

[Tom Boots]

All established by non Christians, for they did not hold the doctrine of Jesus (JESUS NEVER TAUGHT A TRINITY OR TAUGHT THREE PERSONS) never taught by an Apostle (nothing in scripture by any of them of a Triune godhead) not taught by the Disciples (not a thing from any about triunity and eternal Son)
CHEACHEA, the cult is Trinitarians, they came up with three gods, Jesus and his daddy and the bird god of tritheism.
You are proving that you are a Catholic, for Protestants have no business even pretending to be what they are not.
Catholicism is the mother religion and according to REV. 17 is MYSTERY BABYLON THE GREAT THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS.

I CAN FIND MY CHURCH IN SCRIPTURES, Historically find it as the orginal and only religion of God Jesus as the LORD GOD ALMIGHTY, not a third of a triune godhead of three beings making up the Trinitarians pretend one God.

I am so glad that you count pagans and heathens of all of Trinitarianism as yours.

[cheachea]

All established by non Christians, for they did not hold the doctrine of Jesus (JESUS NEVER TAUGHT A TRINITY OR TAUGHT THREE PERSONS)


Matthew 28:19
19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,


The Lord Jesus Christ said this. I'm not Catholic by the way I'm Protestant.

[Tom Boots]

cheachea, you were the one counting as your brood CATHOLICS, you cannot find your church save but through her , you are Catholic as much as Catholics are MYSTERY BABYLON THE GREAT THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS, She is mother, you are her offspring.

Posting MATTHEW 28:19 AND THINKING IT SUPPORTS YOU IS ERROR, NO PLACE DID ANYONE REPEAT THIS PHRASE IN BAPTISMS AS A FORMULA, instead they always used the name of Jesus.
Acts 2:38, 8:16, 10:48, 19:5, 22:16.

the "name" of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost was JESUS!,
Jesus the Son of God came in his Father's name.
The name of the Son was Jesus
The Name of the paraclete=Comforter was Jesus.

You deny plain scripture regarding ONE GOD, and hold three as members in a godhead, a false eternal son, a false God the Son and equally false God the Holy Ghost.
You people deny the name of Jesus in baptism as REV. 3:8 shows.

cheachea, tell me who were Trinitarians by name in the 2nd century, I know you will try and say that the APOSTLES were, but I don't see them teaching your ideas and doctrines.
So who do you say is part of your church in the 2nd century, I frankly see NONE, you can try claiming those who you think were Trinitarians, but will find they held two gods.
Or didn't use such language as you folks do.

[Tom Boots]

84 ON A DIFFERENT COURSE SUNDAY, I hit the stick and missed hole in one by a foot at 150 yds.
Hit the stick at 100 yds two holes latter, but jumped off the green.

Now I don't know what version you are using, but it would seem to be one that someone translates what is not in the KJV regarding the three verses that translate
PROS TON THEON 'IN THINGS PERTAINING TO GOD'.

I use the KJV, if another version is used, one should put what version abbreviation at the end.
LIKE GAL. 2:20 AMPLIFIED
20 Now a go-between (intermediary) has to do with and implies more than one party [there can be no mediator with just one person].
Yet God is [only] one Person [and He was the sole party in giving that promise to Abraham. But the Law was a contract between two, God and Israel; its validity was dependent on both].

Note scripture says God is only ONE PERSON, which is what the Greek grammar of heis Theos means from the p***age.

*** 13:7-8 Here God is called a person in the KJV, why not three persons, or will you say this only meant one of a pack of persons making up God and which one?

Now I have a different view of what One God means, I mean one, not a plurality of beings making up a godhead to make a plural one, I don't believe God was seen or spoken by Jews as such and nor did the 1st century APostles, Disciples and Christ do so.

My one God is the only true God and Father, Jesus the LORD GOD ALMIGHTY, the Holy One and the only deity we Oneness Apostolics worship and not try to divide God into plurality of persons in a triune godhead.

Now I believe the difference in with as you see in 2 Cor. 5:8 has to do with how something was with Lord as to pertaining to God, it is the language of action, something with Lord is not meaning it was pertaining to God.
"PARA' WOULD BE NEEDED TO BE 'WITH".
"PROS" to pertain to God himself.
With gives the connotation something alongside, God is not with another God as Jn 1:1 attempts to say by translaters, but rather Pertaining to God as in that verse coming from God, in this case the LOGOS or Word, God's Logos not meaning a person or being or another like God or another God, but from God as to pertaining to him.
Logos means IDEA=THOUGHT-EXPRESSION.
NOT ANOTHER GOD, NOT A PART OF A GOD MADE UP OF THREE BEINGS.

So how do you accept what you are in and believe as the truth, when there is another group claiming the same as you, but holding a different viewpoint that Jesus is God and not with two others making up a deity as you hold?
And I am not speaking of a religion like Jehovah Witnesses or Mormons or Christian Scientists etc which have no doctrine or history going back further than the 19th century or 16th century, but which has people named and known to hold a Monarchian view as we do today.
I searched and studied about Oneness Monarchianism and as well Trinitarianism, and found the one (Oneness) to be the church of the Bible and Trinitarianism to be the false church, denying Jesus as God.

[cheachea]

Trinitarianism to be the false church, denying Jesus as God.


I agree with you that The Lord Jesus Christ is God. Trinitarians believe that Jesus Christ is God. What's the Problem ?

[MacG]

84 ON A DIFFERENT COURSE SUNDAY, I hit the stick and missed hole in one by a foot at 150 yds.
Hit the stick at 100 yds two holes latter, but jumped off the green.

Now I don't know what version you are using, but it would seem to be one that someone translates what is not in the KJV regarding the three verses that translate
PROS TON THEON 'IN THINGS PERTAINING TO GOD'.

I use the KJV, if another version is used, one should put what version abbreviation at the end.
LIKE GAL. 2:20 AMPLIFIED
20 Now a go-between (intermediary) has to do with and implies more than one party [there can be no mediator with just one person].
Yet God is [only] one Person [and He was the sole party in giving that promise to Abraham. But the Law was a contract between two, God and Israel; its validity was dependent on both].

Note scripture says God is only ONE PERSON, which is what the Greek grammar of heis Theos means from the p***age.

*** 13:7-8 Here God is called a person in the KJV, why not three persons, or will you say this only meant one of a pack of persons making up God and which one?

Now I have a different view of what One God means, I mean one, not a plurality of beings making up a godhead to make a plural one, I don't believe God was seen or spoken by Jews as such and nor did the 1st century APostles, Disciples and Christ do so.

My one God is the only true God and Father, Jesus the LORD GOD ALMIGHTY, the Holy One and the only deity we Oneness Apostolics worship and not try to divide God into plurality of persons in a triune godhead.

Now I believe the difference in with as you see in 2 Cor. 5:8 has to do with how something was with Lord as to pertaining to God, it is the language of action, something with Lord is not meaning it was pertaining to God.
"PARA' WOULD BE NEEDED TO BE 'WITH".
"PROS" to pertain to God himself.
With gives the connotation something alongside, God is not with another God as Jn 1:1 attempts to say by translaters, but rather Pertaining to God as in that verse coming from God, in this case the LOGOS or Word, God's Logos not meaning a person or being or another like God or another God, but from God as to pertaining to him.
Logos means IDEA=THOUGHT-EXPRESSION.
NOT ANOTHER GOD, NOT A PART OF A GOD MADE UP OF THREE BEINGS.

So how do you accept what you are in and believe as the truth, when there is another group claiming the same as you, but holding a different viewpoint that Jesus is God and not with two others making up a deity as you hold?
And I am not speaking of a religion like Jehovah Witnesses or Mormons or Christian Scientists etc which have no doctrine or history going back further than the 19th century or 16th century, but which has people named and known to hold a Monarchian view as we do today.
I searched and studied about Oneness Monarchianism and as well Trinitarianism, and found the one (Oneness) to be the church of the Bible and Trinitarianism to be the false church, denying Jesus as God.

This is Gal 2:20 "20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me."


"In the beginning was the THOUGHT-EXPRESSION. The THOUGHT-EXPRESSION was pertaining to God. The THOUGHT-EXPRESSION was God. The same was with God...and the THOUGHT-EXPRESSION was made flesh and dwelt among us" This is not making sense to me I am not so sure about this.

Pros is used 600+ times (http://www.blueletterbible.org/search/translationResults.cfm?criteria=G4314&csr=9&page=24&sf=5&t=KJV) in the new testament. Many times translated with and no para in sight. In fact Pros is used in Jn1:2 "The same was in the beginning with God" What is the "same" in this p***age?

In the previous post I asked you about the grammar rules for the translation of pros when it comes to the use of 'with' or 'pertaining to'. I think I have asked twice. Do you not know them?

I have never denied Jesus is God - on that the scripture is clear. "Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God. But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men". Phil 2:5ff KJV It that says before His incarnation, He was equal with God. Additionally it says that He thought I thought that Word means THOUGHT-EXPRESSION. Are you telling me that the THOUGHT-EXPRESSION has thoughts?

[Tom Boots]

You also believe He is with two others you call God who are persons or beings in a godhead, namely the Father first person in a godhead and the Holy Ghost/Spirit who he is not and thus two others as well like He who is members or individuals or separate persons, A.T. Robertson in John 1:1 of his Greek Word pictures likens them to being face to face, that to me is three gods.
You deny that Jesus is the Father despite Isa. 9:6speaking about Jesus was and is to be called Father( without taking a caveat of the word everlasting and making up another Father being with the Father).
We see as wellin Rev. 21:6-7 that Jesus himself says he would be our God and we his son/s.

Apostolic Oneness Pentecostals of Monarchian faith hold Jesus is God and Father for scripture over and over says God is the Father and that there is only one true God, the Father Jn 17:1-3.

We have problems withthegentile pagan idea that your Catholic Church started and did not get from Jesus Christ,the Apostles, any bible writer or God himself.

One means one to us, not a plurality of beings as corporate members making a group of god being this one God you have.

Tom

[Tom Boots]

Sorry didn't check that should be Galatians 3:20not 2:20.
Gal. 3:20 Amplified says God is one Person, not persons or three persons.

Yes I was trying to explain that with gives the connotation used by Trinitarians that something an be along side of and not pertaining to God.
Theos God was not modified in the other three pros ton theon p***ages as "with", but pertained to God, just like it should have been in Jn 1:1.
The Word is not another person, being, en***y to be with it as Robertson in his word pictures of the N.T. Tries to make it, that would be more than one God.

Notice it says "the same" ,and not like many modern versions HE for the Word-Logos.

We explain it that in the beginning the Logos of God, his idea, thoughts were pertaining to him, [with]{if you keep it in proper context, that it was not a being or person but something he had withhim and always did as. To his ideas and thoughts which eventually expressed them as
As a plan or idea.
As spoken word
As a written word
As a Living word the idea made real.

Phil. 2:5 does not say before his incarnation in that verse.
Matter of fact that is a clear attempt to insert a idea into the verse.
The son ofGod was knot eternal, but was begotten not eternally, but in TIME!
Was made (something Trinitarian creeds deny and I believe mostTrinitarians hold versus made as Gal. 4:4 says).
Was born in time.

Let me ask can God die in your religion?
Or God's Son?
What is God's son to you, another God or god being?
Or a flesh and bones human perfect and sinless or a hybrid god-man second to another almost always referred to as God and always as Father?
I believe you folks have the problem of any of your gods dying and if all three do, we'll you are in trouble, for you haven't way of getting them out of hell if that be the case and God can die.
Oneness say that the Son of, not God the Son died.
Son, the man Christ Jesus according to scripture 1Tim. 2:5.
Son= the flesh and bones of Jesus Christ the Son or tabernacle of God, Luke 24:39.

The Greek is against the idea of persons.
The English is plain that God is Spirit and not his own Son, the man Christ a flesh and bones human in which God indwelt as Father the Spirit deity 2 Cor. 5:19, Jn 14:10-11.

[Tom Boots]

Where was anyone baptized and the t i tles said over them as a formula in a scriptural p***age repeated as you believe it says to do, but not as Apostles did in all baptismal p***ages, when they used the name Jesus.

[cheachea]

At this Point only The Holy Spirit of God can lead you into all truth. I hope you come to the Truth.

[MacG]

We explain it that in the beginning the Logos of God, his idea, thoughts were pertaining to him, [with]{if you keep it in proper context, that it was not a being or person but something he had withhim and always did as

" Christ Jesus. Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God" When was the cogniscient Christ Jesus in the form of God?

[Tom Boots]

I have the Holy Spirit the way the Bible speaks, led by, filled with, having the fruits and gifts of the Spirit and not what I see in Trinitarian churches as a whole. As in a whole bunch, as in all!

[MacG]

Would be nice to see a response to questions I ask.

Different versions

w) In the beginning was the word, that is, God’s Son, and the word was at God, and God was the word. (p) In the beginning was the word, and the word was at God, and God was the word.
(t) ¶ In the beginning was the [that] word, and the [that] word was with God: and God was the [that] word. (g) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
(k) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Which versions are those?


Is God our Father as scripture says?
As the Scripture says.


Is God a Trinity
Trying to figure that out.


Is God his own Son?
No.


What is Son?
From a Father


What is the beginning?
The creation's starting point.


What is pertaining or with God?
The Word is with God as you say. Harder still is understanding that God's thought or idea is God.


Does the scriptures have in the Greek, Son for the Word in the p***age?
Don't know Greek but verse 14 of the same paragraph says the Word became flesh. So the idea or thought that was God became flesh I would ***ume that is the only begotten Son who was sent to earth.


Is God three persons or one person?[give the scripture please]. Trying to figure that out. John 17:22 NASB "The glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, just as We are one;" Just as We are one.

[Tom Boots]

Which versions are those?

Wycliffe, Tyndale and KJV
I posted these for you to peruse some other versions, the Wycliffe adds words not seen in Greek MSS, A clear cut addition inserted of GOD'S SON, a idea he held, not a translation.


As the Scripture says.

nOTICE NO CAVEAT OR MODIFYING GOD TO BE GOD THE FATHER FIRST PERSON IN THE GODHEAD.
But God is the Father throughout the scriptures as in John 17:1-3.

Trying to figure that out.
If not in Bible, why call God something the Word of God never uses and the word has no support for, as God is never said to be "three persons".
Neither the word is spoken or the words making up the definition of it.


No.
So the Son is not God, God is not the Son, and there is no GOD THE SON in scripture.


From a Father
Father then precedes his Son.
The Father is eternal, the Son begotten.
The Father was Spirit JOHN 4:24 and the Son, the man Christ which Jesus stated as such was flesh and bones 1 TIM. 2:5,lUKE 24:39

The creation's starting point.
john 1:1 bEGINNING IS FROM START OF CREATION.
Then from start of Creation was the Word, not a second person called Son.
Son did not create, but all things were created by (with him in view) and for (made for his and creations usage).


The Word is with God as you say. Harder still is understanding that God's thought or idea is God.
Is your word yours ? is your thoughts yours? is your words yours? is the written word of God, not his?
You cannot separate God from his Logos=Word.
EVEN WHEN IN TIME THE IDEA BECAME REAL AND WAS THE MAN/CHILD THE CHRIST.
That is modalistic Monarchianism.


Don't know Greek but verse 14 of the same paragraph says the Word became flesh. So the idea or thought that was God became flesh I would ***ume that is the only begotten Son who was sent to earth.
Answer, Son is not in the p***age and Logos is not person, but Word a idea, thought and expression of God idea made real and became flesh.

Trying to figure that out. John 17:22 NASB "The glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, just as We are one;" Just as We are one.

The son got glory for victory over death and that had been with God in his plan , and given to the MAN CHRIST, THE PROPITIATION FOR OUR SIN, THE REDEEMER, THE MAN WITH GOD, dwelling in him, JOHN 14:10-11, 2 Cor. 5:19, 1 Tim. 3:16


TOM BOOTS Apostolic Penetecostal.

[Tom Boots]

IS GOD, One person or three persons?
I SAY ONE, scripture supports me with *** 13:8 KJV O.T.
GAL. 3:20 AMPLIFIED "God is only one person".
Now give me a p***age that says God is three persons or called Trinity!
Why is it that Jews rejected that idea , the first and second century believers (MONARCHIANS=ONENESS) never used the Tritheistic language you people use?
Scripture and HISTORY, Grammar and Logic does your side in.
Just because you see smoke of a Trinity church, never meant there was any FIRE there.

[Tom Boots]

AS THE MAN CHRIST, THE EXPRESS IMAGE OF THAT INVISIBLE GOD, MADE VISIBLE.
HEB. 1:3
I hold that Jesus Christ would not grasp after divine prerogatives though his as God enfleshed, he would not make of himself any reputation and call himself openly God, Father, Spirit, Deity.
HE SPOKE IN PROVERBS JOHN 16:25.
God was in Christ 2 Cor.5;19
Christ was a man 1 Tim. 2:5

[MacG]

AS THE MAN CHRIST, THE EXPRESS IMAGE OF THAT INVISIBLE GOD, MADE VISIBLE.
HEB. 1:3
I hold that Jesus Christ would not grasp after divine prerogatives though his as God enfleshed, he would not make of himself any reputation and call himself openly God, Father, Spirit, Deity.
HE SPOKE IN PROVERBS JOHN 16:25.
God was in Christ 2 Cor.5;19
Christ was a man 1 Tim. 2:5

No one doubts the humanness of Jesus. The question remains: When did the thinking, self aware Christ Jesus exist in the form of God as opposed to the form of man?

"Have this attytude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, who, although He existed in the form of God, thought...humbled himself ... and being made in the likeness of men." NASB Phil2:5-7

"5 Have this attytude [e]in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be [f]grasped, 7 but [g]emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death [h]on a cross."

[Tom Boots]

No one doubts the humanness of Jesus. The question remains: When did the thinking, self aware Christ Jesus exist in the form of God as opposed to the form of man?

The form of God was morphe, that God had no physical form as Spirit, his only form was his own body, his tabernacle of flesh.
Jesus Christ was the express image of the invisible God, Jesus was the Spirit God and Jesus begot a son a physical human of flesh, the Word was that plan or idea made real or flesh and was God's invisaging of a Son that did come or was sent a baby-child-man.

"Have this attytude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, who, although He existed in the form of God, thought...humbled himself ... and being made in the likeness of men." NASB Phil2:5-7

"5 Have this attytude [e]in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be [f]grasped, 7 but [g]emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death [h]on a cross."


GOD=Spirit was in Christ, God was not the Christ man, for God is not a man, but God counted that body as his and always will, he will not leave us, he will not forsake mankind, he will eternally dwell in a body he fashioned for himself, what he chose in his Logos, his plan his invisaging.
God said He was not a man, Jesus said God was Spirit, Jesus said Spirit {God} hath not flesh and bones as you see me have.
YET! Jesus was God, Jesus was the man, Jesus is that Spirit which dweils in his saints, Jesus is all.
Tom Boots Apostolic

[MacG]

IS GOD, One person or three persons?
I SAY ONE, scripture supports me with *** 13:8 KJV O.T.
GAL. 3:20 AMPLIFIED "God is only one person".
Now give me a p***age that says God is three persons or called Trinity!
Why is it that Jews rejected that idea , the first and second century believers (MONARCHIANS=ONENESS) never used the Tritheistic language you people use?
Scripture and HISTORY, Grammar and Logic does your side in.
Just because you see smoke of a Trinity church, never meant there was any FIRE there.

Your repeated use of "Tritheistic language" and "multiple gods" "three gods" shows one of two things, either you understand it and are falsely stating what Trinitarians believe through your interpretation of it or just do not understand it. Which is it? Bearing false witness or ignorance?

I do not stand for it when anyone on either side of a debate does so.

[Tom Boots]

Is there two other beings, persons, en***ies, Spirits with JESUS??
Do you believe that Jesus is all there is of God, that you are complete in him, that He is fully and completely thee e birdI HAVE BEEN IN YOUR CHURCHES, read your literature and books, heard your false preachers, seen deabtes where your men are left holding a bag of hammers and know that you all deny ONE TRUE GOD, THE FATHER and hold three god/gods, the Father God, your first person (your own kind came up with that), god the son or the god-man ( a ficticious deity, a junior miss, who is not God at all){and who you folks counted as the the second person} and lastly the third person god, the god the Holy Spirit a mute, who doesn't speak or carry on any speech.

I DON'T HOLD THOSE DOCTRINES, you do.

[MacG]

I am still not certain if you understand the doctrine and are just misrepresenting it or are just ******** about it. Is the statement what you understand it to be or are you embellishing? Words get their meaning by definition in their proper context so if you use persons interchangeably with Spirits and beings and ent ities it is not clear if you think they are the same or are carelessly using verbiage in a hand wavingly dismissive way because you do not believe it.

[MacG]

The form of God was morphe, that God had no physical form as Spirit, his only form was his own body, his tabernacle of flesh.
Jesus Christ was the express image of the invisible God, Jesus was the Spirit God and Jesus begot a son a physical human of flesh, the Word was that plan or idea made real or flesh and was God's invisaging of a Son that did come or was sent a baby-child-man.

If I understand you correctly, the idea was God. Correct?

If I am not mistaken morphe is a feminine noun.

[Tom Boots]

In the beginning was the Word=Logos and the Word=Logos was with or pertaining to God and the Word=Logoswas God.
Nota person with God, but his ideal, his plan, his envisaging, his thought was with him and it was him when it became to fruition.
Yes morphe is feminine noun and your point?

The problem which you have yest to reply to in a coupe of posts is that Trinitarians in John 1:1 must change the definition in mid stream of Theos God which you people give as the definition as Trinity when it is convenient and then here must change it to fit your idea of taking a round peg into a triangle shape hole.
You switch fromThree persons as your godhead to mean here God Father and a second being god in the verse of a god the son and the third god member is obviously missing.

SoGod is not aTrinity when you need into be and God is not the Father in all cases as scripture says it is and you conjure up two other god with a first person god and thus have three gods or god.

[Tom Boots]

I am still not certain if you understand the doctrine and are just misrepresenting it or are just ******** about it. Is the statement what you understand it to be or are you embellishing? Words get their meaning by definition in their proper context so if you use persons interchangeably with Spirits and beings and ent ities it is not clear if you think they are the same or are carelessly using verbiage in a hand wavingly dismissive way because you do not believe it.
They must be biblical word and ideas and we should be able to see someone teaching it then and we do not.
We see Trinitarian Greek scholars of your camp try to insert ideas as Word is person, morphe is another person, persons are face to face and then not come away with the idea of multiple gods when only one true God exists, the FATHER.Jn 17:1-3.
I deny three persons, beings, spirits, en***ies as In a godhead as a composite deity, I see Jesus as all three, as filling and or fulfilling all roles, he is The Lord God Almighty, He is the Son of God the man Christ Jesus and He is the Spirit, the comforter which I dwells us and leads us.

I cannot find anyone teaching a Trinity, hinting at three persons, let alone speaking of such in the first(Bible century), nor at all in the second century, we must go to the third and a rather late century before men of your view come on the scene and speak of a Trinity!

You must pick and choose what you want from different men and they be forced to abandon them, like Theophilus ca 180 a.d. Justin Martyr, Origen and finally get someone to actually count a deity named Trinity In the 3rd century by Tertullian a philosopher, a excommunicated individual and who was not following the line in his day held by the majority of Monarchian aka Praxeans in his day as we see from Against PRAXEAS chapter 3.

[MacG]

In the beginning was the Word=Logos and the Word=Logos was with or pertaining to God and the Word=Logoswas God.
Nota person with God, but his ideal, his plan, his envisaging, his thought was with him and it was him when it became to fruition.

The confusing part of this is that I had an idea once and it was not me. I have in fact a lot of ideas, dreams, thoughts and none of them are me. How can God have and idea and it be Him?


Yes morphe is feminine noun and your point?

Sorry about that. I had to go back and reread something you said but I was wrong about it.


The problem which you have yest to reply to in a coupe of posts is that Trinitarians in John 1:1 must change the definition in mid stream of Theos God...

If I am not again mistaken I seem to recall asking you for the Greek grammar rules regarding the p***ages in question. I am not a Greek student. I know those who are and yet to bring them or their understanding of the grammar rules which allow for the standard translation that you and yours are kicking against.


You switch fromThree persons as your godhead to mean here God Father and a second being god in the verse of a god the son and the third god member is obviously missing.

SoGod is not aTrinity when you need into be and God is not the Father in all cases as scripture says it is and you conjure up two other god with a first person god and thus have three gods or god.

"Well, there you go again" (Ronald Reagan) There is only one God and yet you keep misrepresenting the Trinity doctrine as polytheism. Where's the R-E-S-P-E-C-T for diverse views? All it seems that you are trying is Sock it to me, Sock it to me, Sock it to me. Some Creationists have a hard time in science cl*** because they refuse to understand what their teachers are saying. Understanding and testing well on a given subject means that you comprehend it but it says nothing about having to believe it. The Breathearians are a people who believe that all nutrition is in the air, food is poison and we need to wean off of it. Having that understanding does not make me out to be supportive of such doctrines. But if I did not have that understanding I might make conclusions that they are the "Supreme White People that Breathe" Along with their offshoot "VeteranArians" (Who are really just animal doctors). Such such divisive word play would serve no purpose other than to insult them and if I knew better it would make me a false witness against my neighbor.

Not missing just not called out in 1:1 as there is but One God. This is danger of proof texting and the importance of the whole collection of writings. Luke tells us the Holy Spirit (it is so confusing when God uses all of these interactive personal pronouns for himself) was present where verse 14 of John 1 tells us that the Word was made flesh.

If you are going to argue against the Trinity at least use the the proper definitions. There is One God, but three persons who are addressed as God and in relationship to each other as demonstrated by the dialogues which take place amongst themselves as opposed to a one man play interchanging masks to create the illusion of relational dialogue where apparently there is none.

[Tom Boots]

Where is one God addressed as three persons ever?
Where are they called three persons in scripture and historically speaking who stated they wear three persons first?
Jesus?, an Apostle? Any disciple? Or a philosopher from the third century almost 200 yrs removed from Christ?

There is no misrepresenting the Trinity by me, there is me exposing it.
If someone called it or found some bible writer teaching it, I would have accepted and believed it, I can't and won't a lie from a Catholic Church which had blood on it's hands and which forced this Mithraic religion mixed with some Cgristian words to sooth the gentile pagans who held and hold a triad.

There is no Greek grammar rules for Jn 1:1 (you people think a common language and not in use had some rules every time, Robertson made up some but like he speaks in Gal. 3:20 it can have a broad and not only one meaning).
What did the English say?, where is Trinity language, why force something into the p***age and avoid the other three usages of pro ton theon , and make God with a god ?

I have no respect for false views, diverse views from scripture are lies, and I don't have to accept or even nod my head, that there can be a different view acceptable, for there is not.

Lastly your ideas and thoughts are yours, not someone else, let you die and they say they are your words, your thoughts as well ate yours, attributed to YOU, not a different beng, they pertain to you and God's Word the Logos was idea, before it became real and was clothed with a body of flesh and became Christ the man, I dwelt by the Father, the only true God.

[MacG]

There is no Greek grammar rules for Jn 1:1

Then how do you know that your tradition is right? No rules, seriously? All language has rules and exceptions to those rules but you want me to believe that this particular verse has no rules?


Lastly your ideas and thoughts are yours, not someone else, let you die and they say they are your words, your thoughts as well ate yours, attributed to YOU,

When I die no one is going to say MacG had a thought and the thought was MacG. The Word was God.


I dwelt by the Father, the only true God.

This is a thought speaking? A thought that knew it was not only with God but was God? For he thought it not robbery to be considered equal with God but humbled himself. An idea thinking it not robbery to be equal with God, gives up its stature submits to authority and casts aside the glory to be found in the form of a man. This is confusing.

[MacG]

They must be biblical word

Show me Monarchian in the Bible.

[Tom Boots]

Show me Monarchian in the Bible.

We use it to identify ourselves from the false church MYSTERY BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.
We use it as Christians to show we teach a MONO=1 ARCHY= RULER, as opposed to a fraud three beings ruling.

You people are called Trinitarians, because you believe in three beings working together to form a plurality of your god.
Your call your God Trinity, you say he is made up of three persons.
BIBLE does not say that.

We are called Monarchians because we hold just Jesus as God and Father.
ALONE, BY HIMSELF AND NOT KNOWING ANY OTHER GOD.

I DON'T CALL MY GOD MONARCHIAN OR GIVE HIM THE NAME MONARCHY, My God is Jesus by name.

[Tom Boots]

I didn't say NO rules, but you people make them up.
i.e. Sharp's rule and Trinitarians insinuating that Matthew 28:19 has Sharp's rule ***ociated with it, when in fact he never used that very important p***age to support his idea and about a Trinity using such., others tried to say it was so.
Seems awfully strange, Trinitarians want to believe certain rules till one smashes them in the face like GAL. 3:20 Grk. Grammar heis Theos a masculine one , meaning God cannot be a plurality, but singular a sole numeric one, as one person/man.
AS WELL PROS TON THEON usage actually in the scriptures and then changed.
Then we see you folks change your own definition and rules to suit you as in John 1;1 , the word God=Theos all of a sudden becomes what you want it to and that is GOD THE FATHER first person of the Trinity and the next time in the vefse GOD=THEOS becomes your god the son second person in the Trinity.

The reason no one will say MACG's thoughts is not MACG is because you are not Jesus.
The word Logos has a broad meaning, which includes the envisaging as well as what was spoken of, written about and made flesh.

God's Word =Logos is God is it not? You seem to reject that, because in your finite mind, you cannot see that Word is more than a Spoken Word, a written Word, it is a idea and Living Word.
wHY IS THAT SO HARD?
Before something is written, it is idea!
Before the Word became flesh, it was a plan or thought of God, HIS WORD, not someone else's and then in time that Word=Logos went from that idea and became real and walked amongst us and that Word was God (Be it thought, written, spoken, living).

You are now confusing Phil. 2:5-8 with John 1;1, you seem to want to insert separate persons so much, you are willing to confuse my words.

I never said a idea thinking was equal with God, nothing is equal with God, God is and there is not another or something other that equals him.
Jesus was the God, the man, the Spirit, three manifestations of his.
This idea of thought it not robbery to be equal to God , means he did not grasp after and try to rape as a man, which was God's.
AS THE MAN CHRIST, JESUS WOULD NOT AND COULD NOT DO SO.

[Tom Boots]

MACG, is God three persons? Do you believe God is a Trinity?
When you say God, tell me what do you mean or believe in.
I think that word Theos gets a false view from a Trinitarian and one that changes horses in mid stream.

[MacG]

I didn't say NO rules, but you people make them up.


In response to my question which grammar rules do you use you said "http://www.waltermartin.com/forums/showthread.php?3100-John-1-1-real-problems-in-there-for-Trinitarians&p=145455#post145455There is no Greek grammar rules for Jn 1:1" And went on to say the Robertson made some up.

So I ask again what are the greek grammar rules that you are using to come up with a variant translation from what is the dominant understanding?


I never said a idea thinking was equal with God, nothing is equal with God, God is and there is not another or something other that equals him.

It seems to me that your position is at variance with Phil 2:5-11 Jesus is thinking prior to exercising humility and willfully becoming human that it was not robbery to be considered equal with God. How does this pre-incarnate thought/idea have self aware reasoning ability?

[RealFakeHair]

Wow, three persons in this room, that makes us a trinity!

[Tom Boots]

That is exactly what a Trinity is three men, three people, three persons each separate and not what the other is and not as God would be.

God is stated to be a person, not person in *** 13:8 and the Amplified in Gal. 3:20 makes it clear from the correct translation of heis Theos , one God, that God could only be One Person.

[Tom Boots]

I showed the other three text that "pros ton Theon" was translated as things pertaining to God, I believe it was by choice that Robertson who was trying to have a FTF meeting with three beings used it as with, hoping that it sufficed to have met his propping up his Trinity idea.

Heb.2:17, 5:1, Rom 15:17

I wonder why you have yet to seem to answer my questions about who and what name God is called in the p***age, that your kind needs to change the definition of God and where you make more than one God in the p***age.

[RealFakeHair]

That is exactly what a Trinity is three men, three people, three persons each separate and not what the other is and not as God would be.

God is stated to be a person, not person in *** 13:8 and the Amplified in Gal. 3:20 makes it clear from the correct translation of heis Theos , one God, that God could only be One Person.

Houston, we have a problem.
I admire your persistence, but as I once said about Theos; "Greek, is only a language, and I aint no Greek.
My sinus are bothering me today so I will indulge you today, aint I nice?
John 1;1 says The Word= Logos, and The Word= Theos, so we have a Theos, and a Logos and that make two Words.
A Word here and a Word there, and so forth and so on. I can't see where you get only one person out of the two persons mention, but heck I once tried pulling a rabbit out of a hat, did I ever tell you about that?

[MacG]

After multiple requests for which grammar rules you are using and not receiving them I can only surmise that you do not know the grammar rules. What I have seen is "I believe" statements about what the Trinitarian's use of the grammar rules are made up but no mention of the rules to prove otherwise which leaves us with opinion. So how can you be sure which side is right?

And again it is not three beings.

[Tom Boots]

There is no grammar rules for PROS TON THEON, there is that it is what it says
...IN THINGS PERTAINING TO GOD and Robertson and Trinitarians do not have para ton theon and decided to insert a idea into the text and make up and pretend some grammar rule existed!!
NO GRAMMAR RULE THAT IT IS TO BE 'WITH', but there is evidence that it should be in things pertaining to based on other Greek texts.

Now you "believe" that there is a Trinity, you won't answer what I have posted several times here on the Oneness board about your God being Trinity and then switched in mid stream and becomes individual god beings as god with God.

Now I know you hate to see beings , being mentioned, but I know that is what you actually hold, I have seen Trinitarians say NOT THREE BEINGS OR NOT BEINGS, yet there are Trinitarians who do say that, as well as I have seen Trinitarians say there is not separate persons or three separate persons and yet you people do hold such, Gene Cook in debate with David Bernard said he did not believe such and yet said it TWICE in their debate, being called out the first time and he didn't believe he had and (did when one views the tape or transcript) and then did it and didn't realize he said it , in the Q&A part of the debate.
Wayne Grudem a false teacher also did it four times (at least) in his SYSTEMATIC ERRANT THEOLOGY Book.

If Jesus is not fully and completely God and alone, then you have three beings, Jesus and two others making up a pretend One God, who is actually three individual gods.

[cheachea]

@ 8:41



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ljn2scsv4A

[Tom Boots]

I cannot make out a word from anyone, and who is who save it looked like someone with a bullhorn.
No explanation of what went on and or had been going on before this.
We're you there or just reporting with a link?

[Tom Boots]

MACG , you are clearly showing you have God and another being CALLED WORD WHICH IS NOT THE FIRST GOD MENTIONED, but another god.
What you do is change willy nilly the definition of what your god is or is called.
From Trinity to GOD AND WORD god, or GOD the FATHER for first being and for Word god become flesh , god the son (a ficitcious word for another being).

[Tom Boots]

I take it chechea that the people on the street corner had been there before?
NOW you did notice that the Trinitarian said THREE SEPERATE PERSONS.
That one god prayed unto the Father God.
That you folks hold the third person was a bird!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!
Chechea, what type of church you attend? Baptist? Methodist? Trinity Pentecostal group, just what?
Isee it as the Oneness people had seen these Trinity unregenerate a there before and decided to call them out with there three god heresy, there god praying to God, there son being what he was the son of.

Have you ever attended a face to face debate? Have you ever seen how the Trinitarians cannot use scripture worth a lick when confronted in such?
I have, I have seen it and can say they look so sour pussed it is funny.

What does your church as well teach about standards? for I generally see none amongst Trinity people, and we can generally tell looking at the women.

[cheachea]

I cannot make out a word from anyone, and who is who save it looked like someone with a bullhorn.
No explanation of what went on and or had been going on before this.
We're you there or just reporting with a link?



Fast Forward to the 8:40 mark in the video. It has to do with what we are talking about.

[Tom Boots]

Kinda like a cookout, if I don't just jump in believing that drivel, you throw your hands up and say, oh well the HolyGhost will have to lead you out of the truth you are in, into the error of the Trinity man made up doctrine.
I ain't buying that, it is not a Biblical teaching, nor is ***le baptism or a Spirit baptism with no effects or visual appearance of such.
Holiness absolutely destroys your church, for there is none seen outwardly and or a inward change effecting people in the many varying sect of the false church you are in.

[RealFakeHair]

Hey realfakehair, My team shot 70 two under and I hit a 40 foot putt to take longest putt in the outing and got a 15 ball pack of Pinnacle Gold Yellow optic *****, and did so as the leadoff first putting guy and not getting a read from others.
6433 yds par 72 course.

Oh, shoot, I missed a 18 inc putt yesterday, that about sums up my day!
Hope you win a car next time.

[Tom Boots]

Shot my best round Friday for the year a 82 and then followed up with the worse nine holes a 49 and worse round at 95 on a different course the next day.

[cheachea]

Kinda like a cookout, if I don't just jump in believing that drivel, you throw your hands up and say, oh well the HolyGhost will have to lead you out of the truth you are in, into the error of the Trinity man made up doctrine.
I ain't buying that, it is not a Biblical teaching, nor is ***le baptism or a Spirit baptism with no effects or visual appearance of such.
Holiness absolutely destroys your church, for there is none seen outwardly and or a inward change effecting people in the many varying sect of the false church you are in.



I bet you didn't even watch the video. Your Heretical Cult will Never destroy The Church of the Lord Jesus Christ. When you insult "The Church " you are insulting Many believers in many different denominations like Baptist, Calvary Chapel, Eastern Orthodox, Methodist, Nazarene, ***emblies of God, Church of Christ, Catholic, Presbyterian and the list goes on and on. All these churches believe in the Trinity. Only the Heretical Cults don't believe in the Trinity.

[RealFakeHair]

I bet you didn't even watch the video. Your Heretical Cult will Never destroy The Church of the Lord Jesus Christ. When you insult "The Church " you are insulting Many believers in many different denominations like Baptist, Calvary Chapel, Eastern Orthodox, Methodist, Nazarene, ***emblies of God, Church of Christ, Catholic, Presbyterian and the list goes on and on. All these churches believe in the Trinity. Only the Heretical Cults don't believe in the Trinity.

I love the word, (Heretical), but does it always go with the word (Cult)?
Looking over your choice of faiths, I see (Church of Christ). Funny thing about that one is many believe it is a cult religion too.

[cheachea]

I love the word, (Heretical), but does it always go with the word (Cult)?
Looking over your choice of faiths, I see (Church of Christ). Funny thing about that one is many believe it is a cult religion too.



You are right about Church of Christ, but I think there are a few different types of churches that have that same name. Some of them are not Heretical, I can't remember the one that isn't. I've met people from the one that isn't heretical and they believe that "The Church" is all believers in The Lord Jesus Christ, even those outside the denomination.

[RealFakeHair]

You are right about Church of Christ, but I think there are a few different types of churches that have that same name. Some of them are not Heretical, I can't remember the one that isn't. I've met people from the one that isn't heretical and they believe that "The Church" is all believers in The Lord Jesus Christ, even those outside the denomination.

Good for them, but there was this one story of a woman was told by her preacher if she left her church, and attend a new one she would go to Hell. Funny thing is it was the same denomination CoC, only it was near to where she lived.
Admit this example is extreme, but there are others.

[Tom Boots]

really it is a very poor video and the sound as well. I cannot make out much and not sure of either persons speech.

But can tell you, that I would have mopped the street with the poor Trinitarian with his three bogus gods.

So you are just reporting of this, not actually there.

So what am I to take from this, that two groups met on a street corner and the Oneness in truth and the Trinitarians spewing error, heresy from their cult.

[Tom Boots]

I did twice, first from my cell phone which was very difficult and then from my desk top at my office.
If you count telling a blasphemous group of heretics a insult, then I guess it is so, but it is done to show that there is no three gods, false baptism, no false spiritless Spirit baptism and a false church which cannot abide in Holiness.
THEY ARE FALSE and not Christian and I SEE YOU LUMP THE MOTHER OF THE HARLOTS with the Satanic Catholic daughter works.

Tell me where was your Trinity leaders, ministers, saints in the second century, since you cannot find any in the Bible blabbering about that three god triad.
I would like a name of someone speaking such from that century.
I don't believe any exists and see no Trinitarian able to claim any.

You say we will never destroy that errant church of yours, but sir we are delivering hundreds of thousands from it yearly!, taking out from your church and growing by leaps and bounds and your kind having the blood of the saints on their hands as well as other churches groups and religions, that your kind felt they needed to kill.
But I viewed that youtube video and either way would not have swayed me from either positional side from the little spoken of.

[Tom Boots]

The Church of Christ is a fraud of and by any view if Trinitarian.
The only true Church of Jesus Christ is the church which bares his name in baptism, is filled with his Spirit and lead by him, the ONENESS APOSTOLIC PENTECOSTAL CHRISTIAN CHURCH.
Not a church which has three gods and Jesus just a part of such heresy.
That falsely follows a Catholic ***le baptism and does not hold truth of Spirit baptism and tongues and Gifts of the Spirit and one which reject modesty and Holiness Biblical standards.

ONE means a sole numeric singular one to us, to you folks it means three!

[RealFakeHair]

The Church of Christ is a fraud of and by any view if Trinitarian.
The only true Church of Jesus Christ is the church which bares his name in baptism, is filled with his Spirit and lead by him, the ONENESS APOSTOLIC PENTECOSTAL CHRISTIAN CHURCH.
Not a church which has three gods and Jesus just a part of such heresy.
That falsely follows a Catholic ***le baptism and does not hold truth of Spirit baptism and tongues and Gifts of the Spirit and one which reject modesty and Holiness Biblical standards.

ONE means a sole numeric singular one to us, to you folks it means three!

If my memory is correct, I can't remember Jesus of the Holy Bible ever telling anyone such a thing.
I do remember Jesus of the Holy Bible saying something about, selling all that you have and come follow me.

[MacG]

"ONENESS" Like Trinity is not in the bible. I see you are still bearing false testimony regarding the doctrine of the Trinity. You know the Trinity doctrine is not as you present it to be. You willfully bear false witness this is not any better than gossip and slander.

[Tom Boots]

Oneness is not what I call my God, you call your three god deity Trinity because you hold three persons, which ain't in the Bibe either.
I speak of Oneness as to God being a sole numeric in number and who is Jesus, the Lord God Almighty, you call your deity A OR THE Trinity, because you believe that the word defines a three being godhead, which is not spoken of.
I am saying truth and where there has abeen a battle since your kind made up this idea for the pagans gentiles in olden days and what was never taught in the Bible or 2nd century, so where and who was the persons who held this 3rd century heretical teaching?

You and your church start off with a idea called Trinity until confronted with scripture that you must then change what your deity idea is about and insert persons and different wording as in John 1:1, if God is the Trinity in the first part of the text then it would be in the next.

[Tom Boots]

The Hebrews did not hold a Trinity, you must show that, you must show one is three and not what they said HEAR O ISRAEL, THE LORD GOD IS ONE LORD ,nothing meant to indicate any plurality of beings or persons, wasn't in their language.
Mal. 2:10 "Have we not all ONE FATHER? hath not ONE GOD created us?..."
So it was to mean three?

John 1:18 NO MAN HATH SEEN GOD AT ANYTIME; {so the Son is not God, but just what it says "Son"} [for they saw the Son]
THE ONLY BEGOTTEN SON, WHICH IS IN THE BOSOM OF THE FATHER, HE HATH DECLARED HIM."

Jesus did not always have to make certain statements, he gave by His Spirit these truths for his Apostles to state.

BUT NO ONE SAID TRINITY, THREE PERSONS, BEINGS, PLURAL PERSONS, in describing something made up.

Jesus was as the Christ of God, the Son.
Jesus as to His Spirit nature was the LORD GOD, OUR FATHER.

ISA. 9:6, REV. 21:6-7

[cheachea]

Matthew 28:19


Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

[Tom Boots]

and you people don't do it.
Instead you repeat what is said, instead of doing what was said baptizing in the name, not names!
The name of the Father is Jesus and as well the Son and the Holy Ghost is stated to be Jesus.

Secondly the p***age is called into question regarding baptism and ***les, since Eusebius ca 315 a.d. never quoted the text as such, but rather as " Go, and make disciples of all nations in My Name, teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you."
This fits with Luke's statement about the Great Commision in Luke 24:47
"And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations beginning in Jerusalem."
As well as it fitting with ACTS 2;38, 8:16, 10:48, 19:, 22:16.

The oldest Hebrew texts do no have Baptism or ***les either.

So the evidence is against your faulty idea, but what I like is your own Mother religion the Roman cult saying in the CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA II, pg 263
"THE BAPTISMAL FORMULA WAS CHANGED FROM THE NAME OF JESUS CHRIST TO THE WORDS FATHER, SON AND HOLY SPIRIT BY THE CATHOLIC CHURCH IN THE SECOND CENTURY."

I have many other similiar type quotes about the insertion of a faulty ***le baptism and it replacing the original Jesus name authentic formula.

like Schaff Herzog Enc.
Jerusalem Bible
James Moffett's N.T.
HASTINGS DICTIONARY OF THE BIBLE
TOM HARPUR religion editor
The Bible Commentary
In Theology of the N.T. by R. BULTMANN
DOCTRINE AND PRACTICE OF THE EARLY CHURCH BY STUART G. HALL
and more
EVIDENCE IS AGAINST YOU CATHOLICS AND PROTESTANT HARLOT WORKS.

[cheachea]

So what you're saying is that you don't believe the Word of God.

[cheachea]

Was Jesus being a ventriloquist in Matthew 3:16-17 when His Father said from Heaven, "This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased" ?


Also, how did Jesus descend like a dove on Himself ?

Matthew 3;16-17
16 When He had been baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened to Him, and He saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting upon Him. 17 And suddenly a voice came from heaven, saying, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.”

[MacG]

I have never heard any Trinitarian address God as Dear Trinity it is not a name. It amazes me that you can claim to speak truth but if your comments were to be placed onto an answer sheet on a Trinity quiz, the grade that you'd receive would be an 'F'. Shame too, because testing well on it doesn't mean you have to agree with it and you know better. How can a 'Holiness' person persist in bearing false witness is beyond me.

You are close to blaspheme in reducing the Holy Spirit to 'a bird' and the Father and the Son as mere gods.

We Pray to the Father in the Name of Jesus in the power of the Holy Spirit just as the Scripture teaches. The Trinity is an observed doctrine, e.g. "This is my Son, in whom I am well pleased" and the Holy Spirit descends in the form of a dove upon his tabernacle of flesh...It is more confusing to me to think that the in the tabernacle (body) of Jesus was Jesus, when the Father (who really is Jesus) was heard from on high and the Spirit (who really is Jesus) descended on the physical Jesus (who was in dwelt already Jesus). To me it is redundant to have three manifestations of the same person, the dynamics seem fraudulent because there is no real relationship there.

Unless there are three persons in relationship to one another who are the One God. Three Who's, all of which are described as having the attributes of God and yet as Israel heard there is but One God. This is what we Observe, three in relationship and in Genesis we observe that God created man in his image male and female he created them in relationship. He created Adam and when a suitable mate was not found God took her out of him (bone of my bone) and yet the two shall be echad (one flesh). Lest you think that refers to babies Jesus said of divorce mark 10:6 "But from the beginning of creation, God MADE THEM MALE AND FEMALE. “FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER, AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH; so they are no longer two, but one flesh. “What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate.”

That is how I understand the Trinity. The scriptures stating that there three (somethings, I'll stick with persons) having the attributes of God in relationship within the one God.

[Tom Boots]

The three something's godhead, what a hoot!
Just why we see you people with what we say is three persons from your own explanation.
You pray to the Father in the name of Jesus, but don't believe for a instant that he is what scripture and Jesus himself says he is, The Father Isa. 9:6, Rev. 21:6-7 and many other scriptures saying GOD is the Father.
Instead you come up with a bogus Son of God being the God he is Son of.

You see it's red cant for three manifestations of the same God, when we show that God was manifested in the flesh 1 Tim.3:16 and you denyit, I stead you want to have what scripture never says and that's three persons or three somethings!

S rapture speaks of the Spirit of Godbeing manifest, but you deny that, but there is three something's, which if each is called god, then each is a god.

You people abuse words like echad and deny that it means in referring to God, a sole numerical one, but instead like gentile paganists of old means a plurality, which got them in trouble with the Hebrew man who held one God, as one Lord.
You destroy the word Elohim and throw out how they held it and it is now suppose to mean God is a group and something's, that you better like to all persons and whichI see three individuals as three gods.

See Macg, I came out and recanted and repented of being a Trinitarian, it was not there, cannot be found and was a most hateful bloody religion.So I know how the Catholic man thought or the Protestants taught, I came from thatTrinity cult.

How is it confusing to believe that , In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with Jesus and the Word was Jesus?
But no, you got two gods there and cannot even abide by your church's own definition and term God means The Trinity.
You then try to hammer me for merely showing you call your gods that, but don' twang to actually hold it as such.
TRY JUST GIVING THE FALSE TERM UP.

[RealFakeHair]

The three something's godhead, what a hoot!Just why we see you people with what we say is three persons from your own explanation.
You pray to the Father in the name of Jesus, but don't believe for a instant that he is what scripture and Jesus himself says he is, The Father Isa. 9:6, Rev. 21:6-7 and many other scriptures saying GOD is the Father.
Instead you come up with a bogus Son of God being the God he is Son of.

You see it's red cant for three manifestations of the same God, when we show that God was manifested in the flesh 1 Tim.3:16 and you denyit, I stead you want to have what scripture never says and that's three persons or three somethings!

S rapture speaks of the Spirit of Godbeing manifest, but you deny that, but there is three something's, which if each is called god, then each is a god.

You people abuse words like echad and deny that it means in referring to God, a sole numerical one, but instead like gentile paganists of old means a plurality, which got them in trouble with the Hebrew man who held one God, as one Lord.
You destroy the word Elohim and throw out how they held it and it is now suppose to mean God is a group and something's, that you better like to all persons and whichI see three individuals as three gods.

See Macg, I came out and recanted and repented of being a Trinitarian, it was not there, cannot be found and was a most hateful bloody religion.So I know how the Catholic man thought or the Protestants taught, I came from thatTrinity cult.

How is it confusing to believe that , In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with Jesus and the Word was Jesus?
But no, you got two gods there and cannot even abide by your church's own definition and term God means The Trinity.
You then try to hammer me for merely showing you call your gods that, but don' twang to actually hold it as such.
TRY JUST GIVING THE FALSE TERM UP.

My advice isn't always taken, but heck I give it anyways, just be careful how you speak or type concerning the Holy Ghost.

[MacG]

It is funny that you laugh at three somethings for that is what Oneness holds to, three offices, three modes, etc. As I said I'll stick with persons as only they can be in true relationship.


when we show that God was manifested in the flesh 1 Tim.3:16 and you denyit

Trinitarians do not deny it we just deny your interpretation of it. "He appeared in the flesh, was vindicated by the Spirit, was seen by angels, was preached among the nations, was believed on in the world, was taken up in glory". He, Jesus, appeared in the flesh, vindicated by Jesus and was taken up by Jesus. Right? Again it is so confusing when the writers use different pronouns giving the impression of there being a difference between God and the Spirit of God (God said let Us make...and the Spirit of God brooded over the waters when it should have just been written "God said I'll make...and God brooded over the waters...much clearer to me.

Echad means 'one' not 'pertaining to'.


See Macg, I came out and recanted and repented of being a Trinitarian, it was not there, cannot be found and was a most hateful bloody religion.So I know how the Catholic man thought or the Protestants taught, I came from thatTrinity cult.

Then you are without excuse in persisting in bearing false witness by using three Gods in your depiction of the doctrine.


How is it confusing to believe that , In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with Jesus and the Word was Jesus?

See even you can't stop translating it 'with'. So Jesus was with Jesus or Jesus was pertaining to Jesus? Lingustic nonsense.

[cheachea]

Hey Tom, who said “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.” in Matthew 3:16-17 ? Was it Jesus or The Father ?

[Tom Boots]

No, he was not.
Jesus as the LORD GOD ALMIGHTY did not need to throw his voice or use the voice box and throat and mouth and tongue of the Son of God.
God gives voice to his presence as Spirit and does not have some body or need it to do so.
So when a sound came from heaven (atmosphere) God invisible and Omnipresent everywhere gives voice to his presence.
It was our God and Father, Jesus the Lord speaking, not Jesus Christ the Son of God a man.
Jesus Spirit is not a bird, the bird was a mere visual appearance to show the anointed Christ/Messiah and for John to know who this was.

A man, Christ Jesus was in the water, God's Spirit was given a visible appearance and temporary only for to show who this was and IS NOT A BIRD and not another person.
God's invisible presence was voiced for mankind, He is the only God present and is Spirit and is Jesus our one true God and Father.

SO THE VOICE WAS GOD THE FATHER'S, WHO IS JESUS according to Isa. 9:6 and Rev. 21:6-7 and the verses that say that God is our Father and if Jesus as to Spirit is God, then he has to be as the only true God, the Father John 17:1-3.
Tell me cheachea if the Father is the only true God, then you believe there is a false couple of other gods and Jesus is a fraud.

[Tom Boots]

I believe the word of God and you don't, for if you did and if MT. 28:19 was written even as we have in most versions, then you disobey that word and do not baptize in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost, which the Apostles show by their words was in JESUS name.
You cannot show anywhere , where anyone baptized repeating those words when baptized as in ACTS 8:16 AND 19:5 and stated to be in Acts 2;38, 10:48 and 22:16.
YOU FOLKS CANNOT EVEN TELL US THE FIRST KNOWN BAPTIZED OR THE LAST IN SCRIPTURE , in those ***les.
There was a formula and Trinitarian scholars state so, you follow a CHANGED CATHOLIC formula and not the Bible.

Now the oldest Hebrew text the EVAN BOHAN SHEM TOV does not have anything in the p***age about baptism or ***les.
Eusebius ca 319 a.d. in his Proof of the Gospel 7 times in quoting the verse did not use Baptism or ***les or any reference to it, his words were close to Luke 24:47 and that teaching was to be in Jesus name.
Now some modern Trinitarians have tried to say there was no name spoken and it is by "authority only "and no verbal ascent to a name, but that is not what History shows and is a trying to hide the fact they they know they have no support for the lies of Catholic teaching.

[Tom Boots]

So the evidence is against your faulty idea, but what I like is your own Mother religion the Roman cult saying in the CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA II, pg 263
"THE BAPTISMAL FORMULA WAS CHANGED FROM THE NAME OF JESUS CHRIST TO THE WORDS FATHER, SON AND HOLY SPIRIT BY THE CATHOLIC CHURCH IN THE SECOND CENTURY."

TELL ME CHEACHEA, why did you avoid that quote from your mother church, that you are following a lie not from scripture, but changed by ROME!?

[cheachea]

Was it Jesus or The Father ?

You only have 2 options, Jesus or the Father. Please just say Jesus or the Father. Please just answer the question plainly.

[Tom Boots]

Jesus is the Father as the Spirit Deity and he was the man Christ Jesus the Son of God a perfect sinless man of flesh and bones.
Jesus fulfills both roles as well as being the Paraclete the comforter see 1 Jn 2:1 for that alone with Jn 14:16-26.

[Tom Boots]

I am not degrading the Holy Spirit, I hold it as a manifestation of Jesus Spirit.

[cheachea]

Jesus is the Father as the Spirit Deity and he was the man Christ Jesus the Son of God a perfect sinless man of flesh and bones.
Jesus fulfills both roles as well as being the Paraclete the comforter see 1 Jn 2:1 for that alone with Jn 14:16-26.

Fair enough, and thank you for answering plainly.

Tom, I'm telling you man The Trinity is a true doctrine brother. I know you love The Lord Jesus Christ and I do to. Hopefully The Holy Spirit of God will reveal all Truth to you about this.

[Tom Boots]

It was Jesus as the Father and not as the man Christ.
Jesus is Father , Son and that Holy Spiritwhich resides and leads us.

[Tom Boots]

I came out of that doctrine and there is not three persons or personages in the Bible as God , that is three gods.
See you deny that Jesus is all of deity, you hold he is a part of a deity and that there is two other beings with him, Father ( who is the only true God according to John 17:1-3, so that means you worship a untrue deity) as you hold Jesus and two others with him, and believe there will be three in heaven, not a Holy One, but a corporate deity made up to have a plural one.
Jesus is God and He begot a body and of flesh and bones and became partly his creation.
Jesus is called God and Father in Isa. 9:6 and as well a son and child, but the prophet.
Jesus himself stated he was our God and we his sons in Rev. 21:6-7.
You will also see scriptures by looking in a concordance that God is the FATHER.
The man Christ is the Son.

[Tom Boots]

Oh I guess you never saw a Trinitarian write or call their deity Trinity either?

[Tom Boots]

Yes Jesus was as a man (the Christ) pertaining to God and was that God as Spirit and not as a man.

Echad does mean one and not pertaining, I never said it was that.

Persons is a manmade idea foreign to the Bible for God.

If you'll,d Jesus with two other persons In a godhead, then you hold not one, but Three gods.

[alanmolstad]

I ask this question to Trinitarians is God a Trinity or not?
Is God able to be seen or not?
Is God a man?
Is God flesh and bones?
Is God able to sit face to face with himself as another being?
Where was the Holy Spirit God in all this about John 1:1?

God is in Trinity....this is the teaching of the Bible.
God is 3-persons within the 1-God.

We dont actually know much more than that about God's nature......but clearly it is very different than our own.

[alanmolstad]

Is God able to be seen or not?
no....that is the thing about God.
He is spirit, and so does not show up to our eyes.
God can manifest Himself in ways we can understand...he can speak out of a burning bush or above the ark....
But because his nature is always spirit we don't have any way to see him normally without God first doing something in some way, that somehow allows us to see "something" that we may never truly understand.

[alanmolstad]

Is God a man?
No...God is not a man, never was a man, can can never be a man....

the nature of God is beyond time...he is from everlasting to everlasting....not just very old, but not held by time....totally outside time and space.
This is why Jesus said that "before Abraham was born, I am"...and why he could not say, "Before Abraham was born, I have been"

To say "I have been" would mean that Jesus was trapped in time like we are...with one moment going after another.
But God is not held in time like that....there is no past, no future to him....nothing that he did before....nothing changes in God...he does not get older, was never younger.

[alanmolstad]

Is God flesh and bones?


No.
God is spirit, and a spirit does not have flesh and bones.
The nature of god is, was and always will be spirit...God is unchanging in his nature as God.

[alanmolstad]

Is God able to sit face to face with himself as another being?

In his pure spirit nature God is unseen to our human eyes.

As pure spirit, God has no **** to sit on...

For us however, God can manifest himself in ways that allow us to understand about him....aside from this we would have no knowledge of god at all.

But God makes use of wordings in the Bible, that have been picked to give us an idea of things we can never truly understand....
Thus when someone talks about the 'arm of god around the world' we understand this to be talking symbolically, and not physically.
there are other things like this listed in the Bible...the eyes of god, the voice of god, the wings of god, etc....the "face of god" is another such use of a symbolic wording to teach us about a concept that we would never truly understand other ways.

[alanmolstad]

Where was the Holy Spirit God in all this about John 1:1?

The Holy Spirit is God

"The Word was with God"

[alanmolstad]

It's too bad Tom got himself BANNED...
It would have been interesting to talk more about the issues he had with God's nature.