The Atonement of Jesus Christ---all men--or just a few?

[dberrie2000]

Let's take a look at your verses one by one starting with this one since it is one of your favorite verses. Do you believe that "all" in this verse and in the surrounding text is referring to all men or all believers?

I believe "all men" in Romans5:18 is a reference to all men--as is all these verses that point to that:


Hebrews 2:9---King James Version (KJV)


9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.


1 Timothy 4:10---King James Version (KJV)


10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.



2 Peter 3:9---King James Version (KJV)


9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.



1 Timothy 2:4----King James Version (KJV)


4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.


***us 2:11---King James Version (KJV)


11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to [COLOR="#FF0000"]all men,


Romans 5:18----King James Version (KJV)


18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.


2 Corinthians 5:15---King James Version (KJV)


15 And that he died for [COLOR="#FF0000"]all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.




Could anyone explain to us what evidence that "all men" meant just a few men--as we see some here do?

[Billyray]

I believe "all men" in Romans5:18 is a reference to all men--as is all these verses that point to that:



Romans 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Let's take a look at your verses one by one starting with this one since it is one of your favorite verses. Do you believe that "all" in this verse and in the surrounding text is referring to all men or all believers?

I believe "all men" in Romans5:18 is a reference to all men--as is all the verses that point to that:


Great. Now lets start at Romans 5:1 and note that Paul starts the verse off with "therefore" which means that he is summing up what he had just talked about in the prior chapter which was justification by faith.

Romans 5:1 Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we[a] have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,

In verse 1 does justification apply to every single person OR to those who come to Christ by faith?
We were already having this discussion in another thread--and you failed to follow through in that thread--perhaps you will do so in this one. Here is where we left off.

In Romans 5:1 does justification apply to every single person OR to those who come to Christ by faith?

[dberrie2000]

We were already having this discussion in another thread--and you failed to follow through in that thread--perhaps you will do so in this one. Here is where we left off.

In Romans 5:1 does justification apply to every single person OR to those who come to Christ by faith?

Whatever you might believe Romans5:1 is referring to--the scriptures state that all men received the free gift--and all men were justified of life:


Romans 5:18---King James Version (KJV)


18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.


What do you disagree with in this scripture? That it really means just a few men instead of all men?



I believe "all men" in Romans5:18 is a reference to all men--as is all these verses that point to that:


Hebrews 2:9---King James Version (KJV)


9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.


1 Timothy 4:10---King James Version (KJV)


10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.



2 Peter 3:9---King James Version (KJV)


9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.



1 Timothy 2:4----King James Version (KJV)


4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

***us 2:11---King James Version (KJV
)


11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,


Romans 5:18----King James Version (KJV)


18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.


2 Corinthians 5:15---King James Version (KJV)


15 And that he died for all,that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

[Billyray]

Whatever you might believe Romans5:1 is referring to--the scriptures state that all men received the free gift--and all men were justified of life:

Romans 5:1 Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we[a] have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,

In verse 1 does justification apply to every single person OR to those who come to Christ by faith?

Are you going to engage in conversation? Can you answer my question or would you like to p***?

[Billyray]

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
This verse says absolutely nothing about limited atonement.

[Billyray]

1 Timothy 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
This verse says absolutely nothing about limited atonement.

[Billyray]

2 Corinthians 5:15 And that he [B]died for all,that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.
15 And he died for all, that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for him who died for them and was raised again.

If you look at verse 15 "those" "themselves" and "who died for them" are referring to believers.

[Billyray]

It looks like DB's suspension at CARM has been lifted so he is now spamming that board.

[dberrie2000]

It looks like DB's suspension at CARM has been lifted so he is now spamming that board.

Don't worry, Billyray--my tenure on the CARM board don't usually last but a few hours before suspension--even though I post nothing different than than I do here. They frown on any LDS prospering there.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post---2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

This verse says absolutely nothing about limited atonement.

I know. Because it states---"all should come to repentance." That defies a limited Atonement.

[Billyray]

I know. Because it states---"all should come to repentance." That defies a limited Atonement.
2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

[dberrie2000]

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

So--does that say just some--or that all should come to repentance? Is God willing that any should perish? Is the answer is no--then why would you believe God only died for a few?

[Billyray]

So--does that say just some--or that all should come to repentance? Is God willing that any should perish? Is the answer is no--then why would you believe God only died for a few?
2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

[Billyray]

John 10
14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.
15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

[Billyray]

John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

[Billyray]

Isaiah 53:8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

[Billyray]

2 Corinthians 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

[nrajeffreturns]

This verse says absolutely nothing about limited atonement.
It says your version of it is wrong, indirectly. Because if Jesus wants ALL of us to repent and come to Him, and if He doesn't want ANY of us to perish, then there's no way He would refuse to pay for the sins of ANY of us. That wouldn't make any sense at all.

And the phrase "God is love" would have to be changed to "God is hate when His feelings about most of the human race is concerned."

[MacG]

I brought some cake into the office for anyone who would like it. Even though I would have been pleased for all to partake only a few did.

Did I provide for all or only those who accepted the gift?

[MacG]

It says your version of it is wrong, indirectly. Because if Jesus wants ALL of us to repent and come to Him, and if He doesn't want ANY of us to perish, then there's no way He would refuse to pay for the sins of ANY of us. That wouldn't make any sense at all.

And the phrase "God is love" would have to be changed to "God is hate when His feelings about most of the human race is concerned."

But if you choose not not follow:
Luke 13:34 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, just as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you would not have it!

[MacG]

I believe "all men" in Romans5:18 is a reference to all men--as is all these verses that point to that:


Hebrews 2:9---King James Version (KJV)


9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.


1 Timothy 4:10---King James Version (KJV)


10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.



2 Peter 3:9---King James Version (KJV)


9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.



1 Timothy 2:4----King James Version (KJV)


4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.


***us 2:11---King James Version (KJV)


11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to [COLOR="#FF0000"]all men,


Romans 5:18----King James Version (KJV)


18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.


2 Corinthians 5:15---King James Version (KJV)


15 And that he died for [COLOR="#FF0000"]all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.




Could anyone explain to us what evidence that "all men" meant just a few men--as we see some here do?

Are you saying that every person before they die, repents and gets baptized before they die?

[dberrie2000]

I brought some cake into the office for anyone who would like it. Even though I would have been pleased for all to partake only a few did.

Did I provide for all or only those who accepted the gift?

You provided the opportunity for all. If Christ only died for the few--then the rest did not even have an opportunity. Christ provided an opportunity for all men to inherit eternal life--by removing the condemnation brought upon all men due to the Fall--and justified all men of life. It was a free gift to all mankind--no faith nor acceptance required--Christ and His perfection alone:


Romans 5:18--King James Version (KJV)


18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

[dberrie2000]

But if you choose not not follow:
Luke 13:34 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, just as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you would not have it!

Agreed. But the reason they can be judged according to their works--is they had an opportunity to choose and be judged according to their own works. If God had not Atoned for them--they would not ever had had the chance to make choices--it would not make any difference what they did--they would be condemned, period. They would have never had a chance.

[dberrie2000]

Are you saying that every person before they die, repents and gets baptized before they die?

No. What was posted that gave rise to that idea?

[Billyray]

It says your version of it is wrong, indirectly.
The verses doesn't say anything about limited atonement.

[nrajeffreturns]

But if you choose not not follow:
Luke 13:34 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, just as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you would not have it!

Exactly. Jesus WANTS all of us to be saved, so if some of us end up not being saved, it's not because Jesus wanted it that way. It's because some of us CHOSE to say "No, thanks" to His offer. Which refutes Billy's idea that Jesus chose to die only for some of the human race. The only way Jesus would have refused to die for some of us, would be if He DIDN'T want some of us to be saved.

So your "Cake" ****ogy, and the scripture you cited above, both show how incorrect Billy's belief is about Jesus and what His desire is toward the human race.

Some Christians say that if you have incorrect beliefs about Jesus, then you have "another" Jesus with "another gospel" and you are therefore not a Christian....

[Billyray]

Jesus WANTS all of us to be saved

God doesn't delight in anyone rejecting Him, but if God wanted to save every single person he certainly could do that but we both know that not everyone will be saved.

[Billyray]

Romans 5:18--King James Version (KJV)


18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.



Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

[nrajeffreturns]

God doesn't delight in anyone rejecting Him, but if God wanted to save every single person he certainly could do that but we both know that not everyone will be saved.

And the reason not everyone will be saved is......??

a) Jesus didn't love those people and didn't want them to have a chance at salvation so He refused to atone for their sins.
b) Jesus does love those people and did atone for their sins, but those people refused to do what was necessary to let that atonement help them.

[Billyray]

And the reason not everyone will be saved is......??

Because not everyone chooses to come to Christ.

Now tell me from your point of view why not everyone is saved since you said "Jesus WANTS all of us to be saved"?

[Billyray]

And the reason not everyone will be saved is......??


Come on Jeff I answered your question now answer mine. Why doesn't God save every single person since you said "Jesus WANTS all of us to be saved" and God certainly has the power to save all of us?

[nrajeffreturns]

Because not everyone chooses to come to Christ.
So it's not CHRIST who chooses to save THEM? Since when? Evangelicals have been telling me literally for decades that Christ is the one who takes the first step, and all we are able to do is REACT to that.

You know, the old "We only love Christ because He first loved us" proof text?

Why are you changing the order of events so that you agree with the LDS doctrine that we are able to make choices that God then reacts to, depending on what our choice was?


Now tell me from your point of view why not everyone is saved since you said "Jesus WANTS all of us to be saved"?
How many times must you be told this? To LDS, Jesus wants all of us to be saved because He LOVES all of us and wants all of us to be saved, so much that He DIED for all of us, and the reason some of us won't be saved is because they will REJECT or IGNORE or FIGHT AGAINST what He did for them.

Just like if someone loves you and wants you to be healthy, so He buys you a nutritious meal, pays for it, and puts it within your reach, but you refuse to eat it, so you die of malnutrition. Can you see how strange it sounds for someone to ask


"But then why does anyone die of malnutrition, if that meal-provider WANTS all of us to eat a healthy meal?"

????

[MacG]

You provided the opportunity for all. If Christ only died for the few--then the rest did not even have an opportunity. Christ provided an opportunity for all men to inherit eternal life--by removing the condemnation brought upon all men due to the Fall--and justified all men of life. It was a free gift to all mankind--no faith nor acceptance required--Christ and His perfection alone:


Romans 5:18--King James Version (KJV)


18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.



Matthew 22 "Jesus spoke to them again in parables, saying, “The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who gave a wedding feast for his son. And he sent out his slaves to call those who had been invited to the wedding feast, and they were unwilling to come. Again he sent out other slaves saying, ‘Tell those who have been invited, “Behold, I have prepared my dinner; my oxen and my fattened livestock are all butchered and everything is ready; come to the wedding feast.”’ But they paid no attention and went their way, one to his own farm, another to his business, and the rest seized his slaves and mistreated them and killed them. But the king was enraged, and he sent his armies and destroyed those murderers and set their city on fire. Then he said to his slaves, ‘The wedding is ready, but those who were invited were not worthy. Go therefore to the main highways, and as many as you find there, invite to the wedding feast.’ Those slaves went out into the streets and gathered together all they found, both evil and good; and the wedding hall was filled with dinner guests.

“But when the king came in to look over the dinner guests, he saw a man there who was not dressed in wedding clothes, and he said to him, ‘Friend, how did you come in here without wedding clothes?’ And the man was speechless. Then the king said to the servants, ‘Bind him hand and foot, and throw him into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’ For many are called, but few are chosen.”

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post----You provided the opportunity for all. If Christ only died for the few--then the rest did not even have an opportunity. Christ provided an opportunity for all men to inherit eternal life--by removing the condemnation brought upon all men due to the Fall--and justified all men of life. It was a free gift to all mankind--no faith nor acceptance required--Christ and His perfection alone:


Romans 5:18--King James Version (KJV)


18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.


If I had brought pie, others would have partaken but not the cake people

Just an observation, Mac, if you will. The free gift to all men did not involve anyone's choices. It "came upon" all men when Christ finished it--not when someone accepted it. It was Christ alone. He finished it. Nailed it to the cross. Over. Done. Finished. Complete. He alone--with His perfection--accomplished the free gift--and it came upon all men--then and there. Nothing left to do to complete the free gift. And it came upon all men--past tense.

IMO--you might be confusing Christ's Atonement for all men with the personal reception of eternal life, or the forgiveness of sins. The Atonement for all men's sins neither gave anyone eternal life--nor did it forgive the first sin. But it did absolve all men from the condemnation due to the Fall--and gave all men the opportunity to inherit eternal life--and obtain the forgiveness of sins--by obeying the conditions set by the Redeemer.

There is a difference between the OPPORTUNITY to inherit life--and the actual reception of it. For instance--if the Atonement forgave anyone's sins--then why were all commanded to repent and be baptized for the remission of sins?

It's likened to a college--the opportunity to gain an education in America is presented by the presence of a college--but one has to obey the criteria in order to obtain the diploma. There is a difference between an opportunity and the personal reception of a diploma. There is also a difference between the Atonement--where are men were afforded the opportunity through Christ's Blood Atonement--where the condemnation was taken from all men due to the Fall--providing all me with the opportunity to be judged for their own actions, and not Adam's--and the personal reception of the remission of sins, God's grace-----which came through repentance and water baptism. His grace for our obedience to Him.

[Billyray]

So it's not CHRIST who chooses to save THEM? Since when?
You asked why isn't everyone saved. Those who are not saved choose not to place their trust in Christ and they are responsible for that choice.

Why are you changing the order of events so that you agree with the LDS doctrine that we are able to make choices that God then reacts to, depending on what our choice was?
We all make choices Jeff and we are all responsible for the choices that we make.

[Billyray]

To LDS, Jesus wants all of us to be saved because He LOVES all of us and wants all of us to be saved, so much that He DIED for all of us, and the reason some of us won't be saved is because they will REJECT or IGNORE or FIGHT AGAINST what He did for them.

The Mormon Jesus wants everyone to be saved, yet he doesn't save everyone. He must value something else as being more important than saving everyone. He values free will as being more important than salvation. Right?

[MacG]

Just an observation, Mac, if you will. The free gift to all men did not involve anyone's choices. It "came upon" all men when Christ finished it--not when someone accepted it. It was Christ alone. He finished it. Nailed it to the cross. Over. Done. Finished. Complete. He alone--with His perfection--accomplished the free gift--and it came upon all men--then and there. Nothing left to do to complete the free gift. And it came upon all men--past tense.

IMO--you might be confusing Christ's Atonement for all men with the personal reception of eternal life, or the forgiveness of sins. The Atonement for all men's sins neither gave anyone eternal life--nor did it forgive the first sin. But it did absolve all men from the condemnation due to the Fall--and gave all men the opportunity to inherit eternal life--and obtain the forgiveness of sins--by obeying the conditions set by the Redeemer.

There is a difference between the OPPORTUNITY to inherit life--and the actual reception of it. For instance--if the Atonement forgave anyone's sins--then why were all commanded to repent and be baptized for the remission of sins?

It's likened to a college--the opportunity to gain an education in America is presented by the presence of a college--but one has to obey the criteria in order to obtain the diploma. There is a difference between an opportunity and the personal reception of a diploma. There is also a difference between the Atonement--where are men were afforded the opportunity through Christ's Blood Atonement--where the condemnation was taken from all men due to the Fall--providing all me with the opportunity to be judged for their own actions, and not Adam's--and the personal reception of the remission of sins, God's grace-----which came through repentance and water baptism. His grace for our obedience to Him.

Just an observation, dberrie2000, you dance pretty good. But I see that you completely glossed over the Scripture I provided and gave me a lot of your own words.


"providing all me with the opportunity to be judged for their own actions, and not Adam's" I may be wrong but I believe that this is the false foundation which you have built your house: Nobody is judged/held accountable for Adam's sin but Adam: EX 24:16 "Fathers shall not be put to death for their sons, nor shall sons be put to death for their fathers; everyone shall be put to death for his own sin."

[RealFakeHair]

Just an observation, dberrie2000, you dance pretty good. But I see that you completely glossed over the Scripture I provided and gave me a lot of your own words.

I may be wrong but I believe that this is the false foundation which you have built your house: Nobody is judged/held accountable for Adam's sin but Adam: EX 24:16 "Fathers shall not be put to death for their sons, nor shall sons be put to death for their fathers; everyone shall be put to death for his own sin."
I wonder if mormons shag?
dberrie, I have two left feet, you wanta dance?

[Billyray]

Romans 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
Romans 4:16 Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham’s offspring—not only to those who are of the law but also to those who have the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all.

Romans 4:20 Yet he did not waver through unbelief regarding the promise of God, but was strengthened in his faith and gave glory to God, 21 being fully persuaded that God had power to do what he had promised. 22 This is why “it was credited to him as righteousness.” 23 The words “it was credited to him” were written not for him alone, 24 but also for us, to whom God will credit righteousness—for us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead.

Romans 5:1 Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,

[Billyray]

John 10
14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.
15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.
Bump for DB

[Billyray]

Romans 5:18--King James Version (KJV)


18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.


Romans 5:1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,

[nrajeffreturns]

The Mormon Jesus wants everyone to be saved, yet he doesn't save everyone.
And, amazingly, the JESUS OF THE BIBLE wants the same thing, yet HE doesn't save everyone either !! What a coincidence!!

Hey....I wonder if the Mormon Jesus and the Bible Jesus are actually the SAME Jesus...

[MacG]

Agreed. But the reason they can be judged according to their works--is they had an opportunity to choose and be judged according to their own works. If God had not Atoned for them--they would not ever had had the chance to make choices--it would not make any difference what they did--they would be condemned, period. They would have never had a chance.

Please restate.

[Billyray]

And, amazingly, the JESUS OF THE BIBLE wants the same thing, yet HE doesn't save everyone either !! What a coincidence!!

Hey....I wonder if the Mormon Jesus and the Bible Jesus are actually the SAME Jesus...

Jesus wants all of us to be saved because He LOVES all of us and wants all of us to be saved
If the Mormon Jesus wants every single person to be saved then why doesn't he save every single person? Is he capable of doing so?

[RealFakeHair]

If the Mormon Jesus wants every single person to be saved then why doesn't he save every single person? Is he capable of doing so?

Saved, saved, and ?
Lets see, every human being minus say, (Satan, son of perdition, and my sixth grade teacher) will be given the chance to make it to the lowest of mormon heavens.

[Billyray]

And, amazingly, the JESUS OF THE BIBLE wants the same thing, yet HE doesn't save everyone either !! What a coincidence!!

Hey....I wonder if the Mormon Jesus and the Bible Jesus are actually the SAME Jesus...
John 10:14 “I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me— 15 just as the Father knows me and I know the Father—and I lay down my life for the sheep.

John 10:25 Jesus answered, “I did tell you, but you do not believe. The works I do in my Father’s name testify about me, 26 but you do not believe because you are not my sheep.


John 17: 9 I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours.

[nrajeffreturns]

If the Mormon Jesus wants every single person to be saved then why doesn't he save every single person?
Because not every person is interested in being saved. If you as a parent want all your kids to turn out a certain way, why don't you force them all to be what you want them to be?


Is he capable of doing so?
It's not in His nature to be a tyrant.

[Billyray]

Because not every person is interested in being saved.
So the Mormon Jesus desires something that is more important than saving every single person? And what is that exactly?

[Billyray]

It's not in His nature to be a tyrant.

Could the Mormon Jesus save everyone if he wanted to? Or is he incapable of saving everyone because he simply can't unless we add our righteous works? Let's look at your our scriptures to get an answer.


Alma 11:37
37 And I say unto you again that he cannot save them in their sins; for I cannot deny his word, and he hath said that no unclean thing can inherit the kingdom of heaven; therefore, how can ye be saved, except ye inherit the kingdom of heaven? Therefore, ye cannot be saved in your sins.

Isn't it true that the LDS Jesus in incapable of saving everyone even if he wanted to?

[nrajeffreturns]

I would take a deity who wants all of us to be happy, but whose LOVING NATURE prevents Him from forcing them to be happy if they don't really want to be, over a "deity" who hates most people and who only wants a small percentage of them to be happy and therefore made it impossible for the majority to escape endless misery.

[Billyray]

I would take a deity who wants all of us to be happy, but whose LOVING NATURE prevents Him from forcing them to be happy if they don't really want to be, over a "deity" who hates most people and who only wants a small percentage of them to be happy and therefore made it impossible for the majority to escape endless misery.
Alma 11:37
37 And I say unto you again that he cannot save them in their sins; for I cannot deny his word, and he hath said that no unclean thing can inherit the kingdom of heaven; therefore, how can ye be saved, except ye inherit the kingdom of heaven? Therefore, ye cannot be saved in your sins.


Jeff the Mormon Jesus "CANNOT SAVE THEM", so I don't know what you are talking about saying he would be forcing them.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post---Agreed. But the reason they can be judged according to their works--is they had an opportunity to choose and be judged according to their own works. If God had not Atoned for them--they would not ever had had the chance to make choices--it would not make any difference what they did--they would be condemned, period. They would have never had a chance.


Please restate.

IOW--the Atonement absolved all men from the condemnation of the Fall that automatically befell upon all men---making it possible to answer for our own sins-- not the sins of someone else. The Fall brought death and hell upon all--the Atonement released us from the consequences of that in the resurrection and the Blood Atonement for all the sins of the world. That provides all men with the opportunity to inherit eternal life--by obeying the conditions set by the Redeemer. Up to that point--men could do what they may--but the condemnation of the Fall still rested upon them, and there was no way to release them from that condemnation--all men were subject to the consequences of death and hell.

It was a free gift to all men--the Atonement of Jesus Christ--that released them from those consequences, as an automatic consequence. Nothing required--and it came upon all men when Christ finished it--not when one adds something to it--such as faith, works, belief, trust, etc. Now, we answer for our own sins--what we choose to obey--not what Adam did.

Faith alone have a misguided belief that if they believe in the Atonement--"accept" it--they will be saved. That is a false belief--the Atonement did not forgive a single sin--nor give one person eternal life. It gave all the OPPORTUNITY to inherit life--by obeying the conditions set by the Redeemer--Jesus Christ. The Atonement provided the opportunity for the forgiveness of sins--through repentance and water baptism--having faith in Christ.

I have asked the question often--if the Atonement forgave sins--then why were all commanded to repent and be baptized for the remission of sins--and that after the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ?

The Bible testifies against almost every doctrine the faith alone have. They are no longer led of the living apostles and prophets--and do stumble, as the Jews did. Their theologies will not match the Biblical record--quite to the contrary.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by MacG View Post----If I had brought pie, others would have partaken but not the cake people


Matthew 22 "Jesus spoke to them again in parables, saying, “The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who gave a wedding feast for his son. And he sent out his slaves to call those who had been invited to the wedding feast, and they were unwilling to come. Again he sent out other slaves saying, ‘Tell those who have been invited, “Behold, I have prepared my dinner; my oxen and my fattened livestock are all butchered and everything is ready; come to the wedding feast.”’ But they paid no attention and went their way, one to his own farm, another to his business, and the rest seized his slaves and mistreated them and killed them. But the king was enraged, and he sent his armies and destroyed those murderers and set their city on fire. Then he said to his slaves, ‘The wedding is ready, but those who were invited were not worthy. Go therefore to the main highways, and as many as you find there, invite to the wedding feast.’ Those slaves went out into the streets and gathered together all they found, both evil and good; and the wedding hall was filled with dinner guests.

“But when the king came in to look over the dinner guests, he saw a man there who was not dressed in wedding clothes, and he said to him, ‘Friend, how did you come in here without wedding clothes?’ And the man was speechless. Then the king said to the servants, ‘Bind him hand and foot, and throw him into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’ For many are called, but few are chosen.”


Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post-----Just an observation, Mac, if you will. The free gift to all men did not involve anyone's choices. It "came upon" all men when Christ finished it--not when someone accepted it. It was Christ alone. He finished it. Nailed it to the cross. Over. Done. Finished. Complete. He alone--with His perfection--accomplished the free gift--and it came upon all men--then and there. Nothing left to do to complete the free gift. And it came upon all men--past tense.

IMO--you might be confusing Christ's Atonement for all men with the personal reception of eternal life, or the forgiveness of sins. The Atonement for all men's sins neither gave anyone eternal life--nor did it forgive the first sin. But it did absolve all men from the condemnation due to the Fall--and gave all men the opportunity to inherit eternal life--and obtain the forgiveness of sins--by obeying the conditions set by the Redeemer.

There is a difference between the OPPORTUNITY to inherit life--and the actual reception of it. For instance--if the Atonement forgave anyone's sins--then why were all commanded to repent and be baptized for the remission of sins?

It's likened to a college--the opportunity to gain an education in America is presented by the presence of a college--but one has to obey the criteria in order to obtain the diploma. There is a difference between an opportunity and the personal reception of a diploma. There is also a difference between the Atonement--where are men were afforded the opportunity through Christ's Blood Atonement--where the condemnation was taken from all men due to the Fall--providing all me with the opportunity to be judged for their own actions, and not Adam's--and the personal reception of the remission of sins, God's grace-----which came through repentance and water baptism. His grace for our obedience to Him.


Just an observation, dberrie2000, you dance pretty good. But I see that you completely glossed over the Scripture I provided and gave me a lot of your own words.

Mac--I gave a number of scriptures I was commenting to--what is it about the fact the Atonement was for all men do you believe Matthew cancels out?

Romans 5:18--King James Version (KJV)


18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.



I may be wrong but I believe that this is the false foundation which you have built your house: Nobody is judged/held accountable for Adam's sin but Adam: EX 24:16 "Fathers shall not be put to death for their sons, nor shall sons be put to death for their fathers; everyone shall be put to death for his own sin."

And how does that statement differ from my own statement--"The Atonement for all men's sins neither gave anyone eternal life--nor did it forgive the first sin. But it did absolve all men from the condemnation due to the Fall--and gave all men the opportunity to inherit eternal life--and obtain the forgiveness of sins--by obeying the conditions set by the Redeemer."

[Billyray]

Romans 5:18--King James Version (KJV)


18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

[Billyray]

Romans 5:18--King James Version (KJV)


18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.


Romans 5:17*For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

[Billyray]

-"The Atonement for all men's sins neither gave anyone eternal life--nor did it forgive the first sin. But it did absolve all men from the condemnation due to the Fall--and gave all men the opportunity to inherit eternal life--and obtain the forgiveness of sins--by obeying the conditions set by the Redeemer."

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post----Romans 5:18--King James Version (KJV)


18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Mac--I gave a number of scriptures I was commenting to--what is it about the fact the Atonement was for all men do you believe Matthew cancels out?


Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

And how are you using this verse to cancel out the fact that all men were justified of life due to the free gift of the Atonement to all men?

There are a number of different approaches to justification before God:


James 2:20-26---King James Version (KJV)


20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

But the scriptures are plain, as to the fact that all men were justified of life, as a free gift--in Christ's Atonement for the sins of the whole world:


1 John 2:2---King James Version (KJV)


2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.


But that means just a few men--right?

[nrajeffreturns]

Jeff the Mormon Jesus "CANNOT SAVE THEM", so I don't know what you are talking about saying he would be forcing them.
Then I guess you should have spent more time as an LDS learning LDS doctrines before you chose to switch over to attacking those doctrines. Jesus CANNOT save people who have used their God-given freedom to choose who they will serve, and have chosen a path that leads AWAY from God. The reason Jesus CANNOT save people who don't want to be saved, is that the only way He could save such people would be by stealing their freedom to choose, and instead FORCING them into heaven. But since that is not God's way of saving people, then He really can't allow unrepentant people to get eternal life. Sorry, but that's just the way it is.

Does that help you understand?

[Billyray]

The reason Jesus CANNOT save people who don't want to be saved, is that the only way He could save such people would be by stealing their freedom to choose, and instead FORCING them into heaven.

Alma 11
37 And I say unto you again that he cannot save them in their sins; for I cannot deny his word, and he hath said that no unclean thing can inherit the kingdom of heaven; therefore, how can ye be saved, except ye inherit the kingdom of heaven? Therefore, ye cannot be saved in your sins.

So the Mormon Jesus could save them if he wanted to?

Would you say that one of the most important desires of the LDS god is to ensure individual free will? Even over other desires such as seeing ALL come to Him and being saved?

[MacG]

IOW--the Atonement absolved all men from the condemnation of the Fall that automatically befell upon all men---making it possible to answer for our own sins-- not the sins of someone else. The Fall brought death and hell upon all--the Atonement released us from the consequences of that in the resurrection and the Blood Atonement for all the sins of the world. That provides all men with the opportunity to inherit eternal life--by obeying the conditions set by the Redeemer. Up to that point--men could do what they may--but the condemnation of the Fall still rested upon them, and there was no way to release them from that condemnation--all men were subject to the consequences of death and hell.

It was a free gift to all men--the Atonement of Jesus Christ--that released them from those consequences, as an automatic consequence. Nothing required--and it came upon all men when Christ finished it--not when one adds something to it--such as faith, works, belief, trust, etc. Now, we answer for our own sins--what we choose to obey--not what Adam did.

Faith alone have a misguided belief that if they believe in the Atonement--"accept" it--they will be saved. That is a false belief--the Atonement did not forgive a single sin--nor give one person eternal life. It gave all the OPPORTUNITY to inherit life--by obeying the conditions set by the Redeemer--Jesus Christ. The Atonement provided the opportunity for the forgiveness of sins--through repentance and water baptism--having faith in Christ.

I have asked the question often--if the Atonement forgave sins--then why were all commanded to repent and be baptized for the remission of sins--and that after the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ?

The Bible testifies against almost every doctrine the faith alone have. They are no longer led of the living apostles and prophets--and do stumble, as the Jews did. Their theologies will not match the Biblical record--quite to the contrary.

Thank you. Now I understand where you are coming from and from your definitions your position makes sense.

But I as I understand it the Fall is what introduced death to mankind as well as the general curse of by the sweat or your brow shall you work the soil, increased pains in labor for women etc. In that scene all were held accountable for their own sin and death as well as the curse remains in place even to this day (Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned—). The pattern of personal accountability is found in continued in Deuteronomy (among other places) we are told that each man is accountable for his own sins, not his father's, not his son's, but his. Through the a sacrifice of animals each acknowledged his own sin and the scripture is true, those sacrifices were a shadow of the unblemished lamb which was to come and taketh away the sin of the world. Again the scripture is true when it says that through one man Adam death has entered but through Christ all will be made alive with the sheep to eternal light and the goats to eternal darkness.

Faith Alone can be misunderstood as well and perhaps that is part of this dialogue. Faith Alone is not I believe and that's it, I'm in olly-olly-oxenfree!. Those of such faith are still-born spiritually speaking. These are those that James is talking about, those that have only a said faith with no evidence of new spiritual life. Faith Alone means there is nothing that I can do which will make me righteous. Just like Abraham offering up Issac, to do so he had to first believe. James was proving that he was not still-born and was engaged in the work that the Father has to be done - not works to justify himself or to prove himself worthy but works to bring God glory. This why the early Christians were called followers. Not to offend, but still-borns do not follow, and likewise followers do not follow if they do not first believe, otherwise they are wanderers or spiritual couch potatoes. I do not put my full weight on a chair without first believing that it will hold me. Then I can work at my desk fully supported by the chair, the chair is doing the work of holding me off of the floor, the chair is my foundation, my feet are no longer tired working to keep the rest of me off of the floor and my hands are free to do His work.

Faith Alone means there is no balance scale of my sins on one side and 'good' works on the other as evidence to prove my worthiness or erase my sin but only the Father's works done in the grati tude of Zacheus for having answered the knock at the door as it were and Jesus having entered into his house (Rev 3:20).

I tell telemarketers and street hustlers all the time "If it is free, I can't afford it." and hang up or walk away. Why do I say this? Because I do not believe them. It may be legitimate, but in order for me to take advantage of their free gift or prize I must believe them and accept their offer and then and only then can I have their 'gift'. Who knows? Maybe I'll lose out on a Publisher's Clearing House check someday all because I did not believe.

[nrajeffreturns]

So the Mormon Jesus could save them if he wanted to?
Can the Jesus of the Bible save people who never accept Him?
Does the Bible teach that people who refuse to accept Jesus will get eternal life?

[Billyray]

Can the Jesus of the Bible save people who never accept Him?

God can choose to save anyone He chooses IF He chooses to do so. God is God and can do whatever he pleases.

Does the Bible teach that people who refuse to accept Jesus will get eternal life?

The Bible teaches that you can either obey the law perfectly and be saved or accept that you are a sinner and place your trust in Christ to save you.

[James Banta]

Can the Jesus of the Bible save people who never accept Him?
Does the Bible teach that people who refuse to accept Jesus will get eternal life?

We believe what the Bible teaches.. You can find your answer in John 3:16.. IHS jim

[Billyray]

Can the Jesus of the Bible save people who never accept Him?
Does the Bible teach that people who refuse to accept Jesus will get eternal life?
As a side note I find it hypocritical for you to try and point the finger when you yourself believe that a person who doesn't accept Christ in this life can be saved. Also you believe a small child who dies is saved and goes to the Celestial kingdom without accepting Christ in this life and nowhere that I have read from LDS literature does it say that they have an option to go anywhere but to the celestial kingdom, which would mean that he or she never had a choice in the matter.

[nrajeffreturns]

God can choose to save anyone He chooses IF He chooses to do so.
Really? Then list the names of all the people who He chose to save who His Son refused to (or was unable to) die for. Heck, name even one such person.


God is God and can do whatever he pleases.
Then He can have His Son die for all of us like the Bible says, if He pleases....right?


The Bible teaches that you can either obey the law perfectly and be saved or accept that you are a sinner and place your trust in Christ to save you.
Or, you can accept that you are a sinner and then become a disciple of Jesus who works out your salvation with fear and trembling, enduring to the end so that on Judgment Day you will inherit eternal life, like the Bible says, right?

[nrajeffreturns]

As a side note I find it hypocritical for you to try and point the finger when you yourself believe that a person who doesn't accept Christ in this life can be saved.
It's not hypocritical for me to believe that people who didn't get a chance to hear and accept the gospel in this life will get the chance after they die, as I point out the flaws in your Calvinism.


Also you believe a small child who dies is saved and goes to the Celestial kingdom without accepting Christ in this life and nowhere that I have read from LDS literature does it say that they have an option to go anywhere but to the celestial kingdom, which would mean that he or she never had a choice in the matter.
Those children had proven their faithfulness in the premortal world. All they needed to to in addition was to get a physical body so that after they died they could be resurrected. They had the choice to accept or reject Christ in the premortal world, and they chose to accept Him and were so loyal to Him that it was unnecessary for them to be tested down here.

So again you got it wrong, since they did have a choice. They just chose more wisely than the rest of us did.

[Billyray]

It's not hypocritical for me to believe that people who didn't get a chance to hear and accept the gospel in this life will get the chance after they die, as I point out the flaws in your Calvinism.

You believe that a person can be saved despite not accepting Christ in this life. Can you show me the verses in the Bible where it states that people have a second chance to accept the gospel after they die? Then we can compare verses to see if what you say is true.


Those children had proven their faithfulness in the premortal world. All they needed to to in addition was to get a physical body so that after they died they could be resurrected. They had the choice to accept or reject Christ in the premortal world, and they chose to accept Him and were so loyal to Him that it was unnecessary for them to be tested down here.

So again you got it wrong, since they did have a choice. They just chose more wisely than the rest of us did.

Can you show me in the Bible where it talks about children doing good works prior to them being born thus resulting in going straight to heaven without ever accepting Christ?

[MacG]

"nor did it forgive the first sin. But it did absolve all men from the condemnation due to the Fall"

As far as I know, the only condemnation from the fall that is visited on all men is the curse on the soil and child birth. Why do those persist if the Atonement absolved all men?

[nrajeffreturns]

We believe what the Bible teaches.. You can find your answer in John 3:16.. IHS jim

Thanks, Jim, for quoting a verse that refutes the false idea that Jesus only died for a small fraction of the human race.

[RealFakeHair]

Thanks, Jim, for quoting a verse that refutes the false idea that Jesus only died for a small fraction of the human race.

Yes, God of the Holy Bible says, Jesus came that man might be Saved. However all men are and will not be Saved.
Now, what do we take from that? 1. all men are not Saved, and second, God of the Holy Bible knows all things past, present, and future, thus He knows who, will and who will not be Saved. Thus, God of the Holy Bible who allowed all men to be borned into this World, and if he Saved all men then He could have easly not allowed the unsaved men to be born. So, yes, the God of the Holy Bible is in control of who is and who isn't Saved. If the God of the Holy Bible knows you are not going to be Saved, bend over touch your knees and kiss your u no what good by, and that goes for me too.

[nrajeffreturns]

Yes, God of the Holy Bible says, Jesus came that man might be Saved. However all men are and will not be Saved.
Now, what do we take from that? 1. all men are not Saved, and second, God of the Holy Bible knows all things past, present, and future, thus He knows who, will and who will not be Saved. Thus, God of the Holy Bible who allowed all men to be borned into this World, and if he Saved all men then He could have easly not allowed the unsaved men to be born. So, yes, the God of the Holy Bible is in control of who is and who isn't Saved. If the God of the Holy Bible knows you are not going to be Saved, bend over touch your knees and kiss your u no what good by, and that goes for me too.

I think I can agree with all that. And it doesn't lend any support to Billy's belief that God allowed all of us to be born, but He only allowed His Son to die for a small fraction of us.

[RealFakeHair]

I think I can agree with all that. And it doesn't lend any support to Billy's belief that God allowed all of us to be born, but He only allowed His Son to die for a small fraction of us.

Well, heck, if I can't argue with you it ain't no fun. I did awful in math especially fractions.
I wish I was smart enough to know who is in and who is out, but I am smart enough to know I need to be in the in-crowd.
I love the word providence, and I pray Providence has my name in the Lamb's book of Life, and if not I'd better get use to the heat. sunblock anyone?

[nrajeffreturns]

Well, heck, if I can't argue with you it ain't no fun
I bet we will have some fun again soon.


I did awful in math especially fractions.
I wish I was smart enough to know who is in and who is out, but I am smart enough to know I need to be in the in-crowd.
I love the word providence, and I pray Providence has my name in the Lamb's book of Life, and if not I'd better get use to the heat. sunblock anyone?

I like the word Providence, too. I grew up in a city with that name.

[Billyray]

I like the word Providence, too.
Let's talk about God's providence since you believe that every single person has complete free will.

[nrajeffreturns]

Let's talk about God's providence since you believe that every single person has complete free will.
Don't Arminians believe that?

[Billyray]

Don't Arminians believe that?
Arminians don't share the LDS belief in complete free will (i.e. free agency).

Jeff do you really believe that man has complete free will outside of any control from God?

[nrajeffreturns]

Arminians don't share the LDS belief in complete free will (i.e. free agency).
What choices do Arminians believe that a person is unable to make? Joshua said to choose who you will serve. Are you saying he was lying because we are not really free to choose whether we will serve the true God or some false god?


Jeff do you really believe that man has complete free will outside of any control from God?
Do you really believe that Satan wasn't given complete freedom to rebel against God? Do you believe that Peter wasn't given freedom to follow or to abandon Christ?

[James Banta]

I have NEVER said that His atoning sacrifice was offered just for those that respond to it.. GOD loves the whole of the world enough to come into it and take our sin on Himself and die to provide us the way to life.. However His blood that has the only power to make us clean is only utilized by those willing to accept it and that by faith. See that verse that you seem to like because it teaches that Jesus can into mortality bringing life, make it clear that only those that believe in Him will receive it.. Only those who are in HIM have that great grace as their gift from God. Therefore only a small fraction of the human race are predestined to receive that gift.. In that way the teachings of Calvin are upheld as they conform to the teachings of the Bible..

The teachings of mormonism falls flat on it's face in teaching that we can do anything to gain the gift of everlasting life.. Mormonism teaches not just faith in their Jesus but the works of baptism, laying on of hands, marriage in the "new and everlasting covenant" and enduring to the end in righteousness. Other than faith mentioned in this point of the mormon creed mormonism is all about what a member of that organization must do. Then it turns out that 100% of it's members FAIL in keeping that last most important point.. And I say that by the authority of God's word.

Psalm 53:2-3
God looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, that did seek God.
Every one of them is gone back: they are altogether become filthy; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Everyone of us, yes I include myself, have become filthy, not one of us does good, NOT ONE. Alone with all mankind ever member of the LDS church is filthy, they don't seek after God, they don't do good. There is no way we can do one thing for ourselves to correct this. God had to do it, and He did just that in the person of Jesus.. You can allow Him to become sin for you and give you the righteousness of God, or you can stand before Him to be judged in the filth and total corruption that we all weave together and call our personal righteousness.. I will throw myself in faith onto His grace and accept His righteousness as mine by that grace through a faith that He has provided to me.. IHS jim

[Billyray]

Do you really believe that Satan wasn't given complete freedom to rebel against God? Do you believe that Peter wasn't given freedom to follow or to abandon Christ?
Do you really hold the position the God sits on the sidelines and watches, not getting involved with His creation in order to protect individual "free agency"?

[Billyray]

Do you really believe that Satan wasn't given complete freedom to rebel against God? Do you believe that Peter wasn't given freedom to follow or to abandon Christ?

Satan doesn't have "free agency" to do whatever he pleases.

[Billyray]

Alma 11
37 And I say unto you again that he cannot save them in their sins; for I cannot deny his word, and he hath said that no unclean thing can inherit the kingdom of heaven; therefore, how can ye be saved, except ye inherit the kingdom of heaven? Therefore, ye cannot be saved in your sins.

So the Mormon Jesus could save them if he wanted to?

Can the Mormon Jesus save everyone if he wanted to OR is He incapable of doing so without the person doing works in order to earn his salvation?

[dberrie2000]

Do you really hold the position the God sits on the sidelines and watches, not getting involved with His creation in order to protect individual "free agency"?

The LDS take the position that God died for all men---that all men would have the opportunity to inherit eternal life. Why do you deny that?



Hebrews 2:9---King James Version (KJV)


9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.


1 Timothy 4:10---King James Version (KJV)


10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.



2 Peter 3:9---King James Version (KJV)


9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.



1 Timothy 2:4----King James Version (KJV)


4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.


***us 2:11---King James Version (KJV)


11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,


Romans 5:18----King James Version (KJV)


18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.


2 Corinthians 5:15---King James Version (KJV)


15 And that he died for all,that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

[dberrie2000]

Can the Mormon Jesus save everyone if he wanted to OR is He incapable of doing so without the person doing works in order to earn his salvation?

Is God incapable of saving satan--or did satan do something that God refuses to extend His grace to him?

Is this an example of someone doing works in order to receive of God's grace?


Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)


38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.


Was the remission of sins earned--or did God extend His grace to those who obeyed Him?

[Billyray]

Was the remission of sins earned--or did God extend His grace to those who obeyed Him?
Alma 11
37 And I say unto you again that he cannot save them in their sins; for I cannot deny his word, and he hath said that no unclean thing can inherit the kingdom of heaven; therefore, how can ye be saved, except ye inherit the kingdom of heaven? Therefore, ye cannot be saved in your sins.

So the Mormon Jesus could save them if he wanted to?

[Billyray]

Was the remission of sins earned--or did God extend His grace to those who obeyed Him?
Romans 11:6 6*And if by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Billyray View Post---Can the Mormon Jesus save everyone if he wanted to OR is He incapable of doing so without the person doing works in order to earn his salvation?



dberrie----Is God incapable of saving satan--or did satan do something that God refuses to extend His grace to him?

Is this an example of someone doing works in order to receive of God's grace?


Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)


38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.


Was the remission of sins earned--or did God extend His grace to those who obeyed Him?


Alma 11
37 And I say unto you again that he cannot save them in their sins; for I cannot deny his word, and he hath said that no unclean thing can inherit the kingdom of heaven; therefore, how can ye be saved, except ye inherit the kingdom of heaven? Therefore, ye cannot be saved in your sins.

So the Mormon Jesus could save them if he wanted to?

How do you relate this scripture to the question being posed? You state--- He incapable of doing so without the person doing works in order to earn his salvation?--is this an example of what you are referring to in earning salvation?

Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)


38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

[Billyray]

How do you relate this scripture to the question being posed? You state--- He incapable of doing so [B]without the person doing works in order to earn his salvation?
Romans 4
5*However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.

[dberrie2000]

Romans 4-5*However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.

God justified all men of life in His redemptive Atonement--the ungodly alike:


Romans 5:18---King James Version (KJV)

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

All men, Billyray. All have been absolved(justified) from the consequences brought upon all men due to the Fall. Now--we answer for our own actions--and not for Adam's sin. All men have the opportunity to inherit life through Christ's Atonement now--and receive of Christ's grace unto life through obedience to Him:


Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)

9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;


I believe you are confusing the free gift that came to all men ----with the grace that brings eternal life, as a personal reception. One--the free gift--offers all the opportunity to inherit life by absolving all from the consequences of the Fall--and called the Redemption. The other--the grace that one inherits life by--comes to those who obey the conditions of the Redeemer--obedience to Him, IE, for one example:


Acts 2:38----King James Version (KJV)

38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

[Billyray]

Billyray
Romans 4-5However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.

DB
God justified all men of life in His redemptive Atonement--the ungodly alike:

So you believe that all men are justified and saved?

[Billyray]

God justified all men of life in His redemptive Atonement--the ungodly alike. . .All men, Billyray. All have been absolved(justified) from the consequences brought upon all men due to the Fall. Now--we answer for our own actions--and not for Adam's sin. All men have the opportunity to inherit life through Christ's Atonement now--and receive of Christ's grace unto life through obedience to Him:

I am still amazed after all these years how Mormons twist the scriptures and I am starting to believe that they really believe what they are telling me despite the fact that it runs exactly opposite what the verse says. DB quoted Romans 4 so let's take a look at what the verse says again

Romans 4:5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.

DB tell me what this verse is saying and try to actually discuss this verse not some other verse because this only will show me that you are trying to deceive me.

[dberrie2000]

dberrie----God justified all men of life in His redemptive Atonement--the ungodly alike:

Romans 5:18---King James Version (KJV)

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

All men, Billyray. All have been absolved(justified) from the consequences brought upon all men due to the Fall. Now--we answer for our own actions--and not for Adam's sin. All men have the opportunity to inherit life through Christ's Atonement now--and receive of Christ's grace unto life through obedience to Him:


Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)

9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;


I believe you are confusing the free gift that came to all men ----with the grace that brings eternal life, as a personal reception. One--the free gift--offers all the opportunity to inherit life by absolving all from the consequences of the Fall--and called the Redemption. The other--the grace that one inherits life by--comes to those who obey the conditions of the Redeemer--obedience to Him, IE, for one example:


Acts 2:38----King James Version (KJV)

38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.


I am still amazed after all these years how Mormons twist the scriptures and I am starting to believe that they really believe what they are telling me despite the fact that it runs exactly opposite what the verse says.

Billyray--it's not the LDS that turn "all men" into a few men.

Romans 5:18---King James Version (KJV)

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

The LDS believe it and teach it just as it is written.

[dberrie2000]

So you believe that all men are justified and saved?

I believe just what the scripture states--that God died for all men--and all sins--justifying all men of life:

Romans 5:18---King James Version (KJV)

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.


Which means all men now have the opportunity to inherit life.

[Billyray]

I believe just what the scripture states--that God died for all men--and all sins--justifying all men of life:

And you brought this up in reference to Romans 4

Romans 4-5However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.

Can you tell me what this verse says?

[Billyray]

Billyray--it's not the LDS that turn "all men" into a few men.
Romans 5:18---King James Version (KJV)

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

The LDS believe it and teach it just as it is written.
Mormons really teach that ALL men are justified? Why do you teach the different levels of heaven if ALL men are justified?

[dberrie2000]

And you brought this up in reference to Romans 4

Romans 4-5However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.

Can you tell me what this verse says?

I just did. The ones who trust in the God who Redeemed all men with His Blood--and not the works of the Mosaic Law--they are the ones who have faith in Christ.

Paul's point? Abraham did not live under the works of the Law--but the gospel of Jesus Christ--the very gospel Paul was trying to take to the Jews. The Jews sought to justify themselves in saying--we have father Abraham as our father.

Paul pointed out Abraham did not live under the Mosaic Law(works)--but under the gospel of Christ. Paul was not saying that obedience is not necessary for His grace unto life--as Abraham was given God's grace due to his obedience:


Genesis 26:4-5---King James Version (KJV)

4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;

5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Paul was a master of the scriptures--he would not have made so rudimentary mistake as to attempt to make the point that Abraham did not receive grace due to obedience to Christ--the same as we do. He would have been cut to pieces if he had--they would have to do no more than what I just did--quote Genesis26:4-5.

When Paul uses the term "works"--that represents the Mosaic Law--not the gospel of Christ.

How could you explain Paul's statement just two chapters earlier?


Romans 2:5-11---King James Version (KJV)


5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

11 For there is no respect of persons with God.


How does that compare to a faith alone theology?

[Pa Pa]

It looks like DB's suspension at CARM has been lifted so he is now spamming that board.
So if he is defending his faith in that cesspool, he is "spamming"? Interesting.

[MacG]

So if he is defending his faith in that cesspool, he is "spamming"? Interesting.

Despite his snark, I get where BR is coming from, as the deleterious effect for me in this board is that I lose track when there is a tsunami of replies to much older threads (I remember not too long ago when some mocked Jim for replying to threads that were old) when there were just a few threads that I could follow the activity stream pretty much by the first few words of the replies seen there without paying much attention the the thread tytles. DB2K is prolific that's for sure - I wonder how many keyboards he burned through :) Imagine the computing power required if it turns out he is using Dragon Speak (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FbffVqWIKqw) :)

With so many threads to follow it will look like I have no answers for him when I miss one or three. So the appearance may be there is no response for what he posted but in reality I probably do have a response but I just can't find the thread anymore and I only have limited time resources.

[Billyray]

So if he is defending his faith in that cesspool, he is "spamming"? Interesting.
Would you say that DB is defending Mormonism since I don't see him doing that.

[dberrie2000]

Would you say that DB is defending Mormonism since I don't see him doing that.

Sorry, Billyray--but what I bear testimony here is LDS theology--which you know little of, despite your claims.

What is found in the Bible is also found in the LDS church.

[Billyray]

Sorry, Billyray--but what I bear testimony here is LDS theology--which you know little of, despite your claims.

What is found in the Bible is also found in the LDS church.
OK let's test your claim since you seem to want to actually discuss Mormonism.

Can you show me where it teaches Temple marriage between a man and a women in the NT?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
Sorry, Billyray--but what I bear testimony here is LDS theology--which you know little of, despite your claims.

What is found in the Bible is also found in the LDS church.


OK let's test your claim since you seem to want to actually discuss Mormonism.

Can you show me where it teaches Temple marriage between a man and a women in the NT?

That's a good question. But how does it test my claim?---"What is found in the Bible is also found in the LDS church."

But it does teach eternal marriage in heaven in the Bible--and the LDS teach that also.

Revelation 19:7-9---King James Version (KJV)

7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

[James Banta]

[dberrie2000;148653]That's a good question. But how does it test my claim?---"What is found in the Bible is also found in the LDS church."

But it does teach eternal marriage in heaven in the Bible--and the LDS teach that also.

Revelation 19:7-9---King James Version (KJV)

7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

It is a false claim.. Mormonism through Joseph Smith hold that God became God.. The Bible teaches us that God has been God from everlasting to everlasting.. In all the Bible the priest duty before God was to offer sacrifice for the sin of the people, yes that included a sacrifice for leprosy.. In no way were they rulers of Israel by the virtue of being priests.. The offices of Bishop (Elder), and Deacon and the governing offices of authority in the Church.. No priesthood accompanied these offices of authority..

Is eternal marriage something that we will see in heaven.. Yes between Jesus and His Church.. Not between men and women.. I tell people all the time that I believe in eternal marriage.. I am the bride.. If you don't see it that way DB you have again doubted the word of God.. IHS jim

[Billyray]

That's a good question. But how does it test my claim?---"What is found in the Bible is also found in the LDS church."

You claim what is found in the Bible is found in Mormonism. Yet you have yet to show me anywhere in the NT where it teaches temple marriage between a man and his wife like that found in the LDS church. Do you think you will ever get around to show to me this?

[Billyray]

That's a good question. But how does it test my claim?---"What is found in the Bible is also found in the LDS church."

Where in the NT church do we find temple work like that found in the LDS church?

[dberrie2000]

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Well--if God's Atonement was not for all--then they coming to repentance would not make any difference--right?

[Billyray]

Well--if God's Atonement was not for all--then they coming to repentance would not make any difference--right?
Anyone who comes to Christ by faith will be saved but we know that all men will not do so AND God who is all knowing certainly knows who will come to Him and who will not before anyone was even born.

Now your turn, do you believe that Jesus PAID for every sin for every person and if so what is the basis for sending anyone to Hell.

[dberrie2000]

Anyone who comes to Christ by faith will be saved but we know that all men will not do so AND God who is all knowing certainly knows who will come to Him and who will not before anyone was even born.

Now your turn, do you believe that Jesus PAID for every sin for every person and if so what is the basis for sending anyone to Hell.

Yes--I believe the scriptures point to the fact Christ died for all sins for all people in all places for all time:


1 John 2:2---King James Version (KJV)

2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.


The reason all people are not saved is they do not obey the Redeemer of all mankind--and therefore--do not receive of His grace unto life.


Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;