The tally of Biblical quotes

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Billyray View Post---You falsely claimed on CARM that Christians don't use the Bible when discussing with Mormons. You know that is an absolutely false claim.


I stated they do not use the Bible very often--as they don't here. Probably less than 50%--and maybe less than 30%--of the posts here by non-LDS contain Biblical quotes. Possibly even less on the CARM forum.

OK--Billyray questions the fact that the faith alone use the Bible but little on their forums. I told him I would do a tally and post the results.

In the ---Faith verses works for salvation--thread, the one in which Billyray made this accusation--is the one I chose for the tally. The results are as follows:

For those who are non LDS--there were approx 75 posts. 63 of those posts contained no Biblical quotes. That is a 8.5% percentage.

For me alone--I posted approx 13 times in that thread--and 13 times I included Biblical p***ages. That's a 100% percentage.

Billyray--who was right? The thread is there for all to verify the results.

Faith alone--where is your Bible?

Comments?

[Billyray]

Faith alone--where is your Bible?

Romans 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Romans 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Romans 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Ephesians 2
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

[dberrie2000]

dberrie----OK--Billyray questions the fact that the faith alone use the Bible but little on their forums. I told him I would do a tally and post the results.

In the ---Faith verses works for salvation--thread, the one in which Billyray made this accusation--is the one I chose for the tally. The results are as follows:

For those who are non LDS--there were approx 75 posts. 63 of those posts contained no Biblical quotes. That is a 8.5% percentage.

For me alone--I posted approx 13 times in that thread--and 13 times I included Biblical p***ages. That's a 100% percentage.

Billyray--who was right? The thread is there for all to verify the results.

Faith alone--where is your Bible?

Comments?


Romans 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Romans 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Romans 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Ephesians 2
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Billyray--you humor me. My wife is a teacher--and she has students that do nothing during the year--and when they see they are going to fail--they rush to her with all sorts of make-up work trying to make up for the fact they did nothing during the year. You might be kinda like one of those examples.

[Billyray]

Billyray--you humor me. My wife is a teacher--and she has students that do nothing during the year--and when they see they are going to fail--they rush to her with all sorts of make-up work trying to make up for the fact they did nothing during the year. You might be kinda like one of those examples.

Revelation 21:8 But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”

[dberrie2000]

Revelation 21:8 But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”

You got it Billyray!

[Billyray]

--where is your Bible?

Comments?

[nrajeffreturns]

Revelation 21:8 But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”

2 questions about your beliefs as they relate to this verse you quoted, Billy:

1. Paul and Moses were murderers. Do you believe their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death? If not, then why not, since the scripture seems to say that's their fate?

2. If the fate of all cowardly, and all detestable, and all murderers, and all sexually immoral, and all sorcerers, and all idolaters, and all liars will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death, then the reason will be because Jesus didn't pay for their sins....right? After all, how can they end up there if the price for their sins has been paid by Jesus?


Thanks for your answers.

[Billyray]

1. Paul and Moses were murderers. Do you believe their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death? If not, then why not, since the scripture seems to say that's their fate?

Both are sinners like the rest of us and deserving of death. However those who come to Christ by faith will be saved from their sins.


2. If the fate of all cowardly, and all detestable, and all murderers, and all sexually immoral, and all sorcerers, and all idolaters, and all liars will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death, then the reason will be because Jesus didn't pay for their sins....right? After all, how can they end up there if the price for their sins has been paid by Jesus?

EVERY single person who comes to Christ by faith will be justified/saved.

[nrajeffreturns]

Both are sinners like the rest of us and deserving of death. However those who come to Christ by faith will be saved from their sins..
But the verse you quoted doesn't say that. It says

"as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”

It doesn't say "most liars" or "liars who Jesus didn't atone for." It says ALL liars, and since "ALL have sinned" means EVERYONE, with NO exceptions, then shouldn't "all liars" mean ALL liars with no exceptions?

[Billyray]

But the verse you quoted doesn't say that. It says

"as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”

It doesn't say "most liars" or "liars who Jesus didn't atone for." It says ALL liars, and since "ALL have sinned" means EVERYONE, with NO exceptions, then shouldn't "all liars" mean ALL liars with no exceptions?
No the verse doesn't say that but the NT makes it clear that every single one of us are sinners and we will be judged by God's laws and we will all fall short. The only hope than any one of us has is to place our trust in Christ to save us. Those who do will be saved and those who depend on their own works will be judged and come up short.

[nrajeffreturns]

But you quoted a verse that refutes your belief that those who trust in Christ will escape that fate. The verse says that ALL liars WILL be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the 2nd death.

It doesn't say "Only SOME liars will be there, but other liars won't because Jesus atoned for the sins of those other liars."

It seems to me that it must be talking about all unrepentant liars, murderers, etc. And the reason those people will end up in the 2nd death won't be because Jesus refused to die for them. It will be because Jesus WAS willing to die for them, and DID die for them, but they didn't want to repent and follow Christ, which would allow that payment to save them.

[Billyray]

It seems to me that it must be talking about all unrepentant liars, murderers, etc.

Where does it say "unrepentand liars" in this verse? It doesn't. We are all sinners and if our works are what gets us into heaven then none of us would make it. Salvation is based on trusting in Christ to save us from our sins.

[Billyray]

But the verse you quoted doesn't say that. It says

"as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”

It doesn't say "most liars" or "liars who Jesus didn't atone for." It says ALL liars, and since "ALL have sinned" means EVERYONE, with NO exceptions, then shouldn't "all liars" mean ALL liars with no exceptions?
Revelation 21:8 But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.” KJV

Revelation 21:8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.” NIV

[nrajeffreturns]

Where does it say "unrepentand liars" in this verse?

The same place where it says "ALL liars will get the second death....except for the ones BillyRay claims won't get it." :)

[Billyray]

The same place where it says "ALL liars will get the second death....except for the ones BillyRay claims won't get it."

Revelation 21:8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.” NIV

Did you happen to catch the part where it says "the unbelieving"?

[Billyray]

The same place where it says "ALL liars will get the second death....
Have you ever told a lie?

[Sir]

But you quoted a verse that refutes your belief that those who trust in Christ will escape that fate. The verse says that ALL liars WILL be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the 2nd death.

It doesn't say "Only SOME liars will be there, but other liars won't because Jesus atoned for the sins of those other liars."

It seems to me that it must be talking about all unrepentant liars, murderers, etc. And the reason those people will end up in the 2nd death won't be because Jesus refused to die for them. It will be because Jesus WAS willing to die for them, and DID die for them, but they didn't want to repent and follow Christ, which would allow that payment to save them.

This reminded me of a quote I just read on that *other* board, wherein a non-LDS stated:

"This is the second aspect of the gospel of grace. First, all of your sins have been taken care of, washed, and forgiven because of your faith in Jesus Christ. Second, God looks at you as righteous because of your believing in Jesus Christ. Apart from what you are doing or not doing, apart from keeping any code of ethics, God is imputing righteousness to your account because you believe upon Jesus Christ."

It appears that they believe that once you have accepted Jesus as savior, God only sees them as being righteous even if they do not keep any of the commandments. That is an interesting concept. I realize that their comeback is "but a true believer will WANT to obey the commandments", but that doesn't explain the problem in their ideology that basically supports the notion that some people call a "license to sin".

[Billyray]

"This is the second aspect of the gospel of grace. First, all of your sins have been taken care of, washed, and forgiven because of your faith in Jesus Christ. Second, God looks at you as righteous because of your believing in Jesus Christ.
This is called justification by faith and it includes Christs' righteousness imputed to us when we place our faith in Christ. You believe that your righteousness comes from your own purity and works which is why we say that you believe in works righteousness

[Billyray]

It appears that they believe that once you have accepted Jesus as savior, God only sees them as being righteous even if they do not keep any of the commandments. That is an interesting concept. I realize that their comeback is "but a true believer will WANT to obey the commandments", but that doesn't explain the problem in their ideology that basically supports the notion that some people call a "license to sin".

That is a straw man argument Sir because Christians don't believe that we have a "license to sin".

Christians and Mormons both believe that we should follow the commandments and do good works. Were we differ is that you believe in addition to your faith you work to obtain salvation/exhalation. Christians on the other hand believe that our salvation is based on faith in Christ.

[nrajeffreturns]

This reminded me of a quote I just read on that *other* board,...

What's going on over at that other board? I can't even read posts anymore, since you now need to be a member in good standing just to read posts. And they won't ever give me that right again for as long as I live, apparently. That's how much they hated me I guess.

[Sir]

What's going on over at that other board? I can't even read posts anymore, since you now need to be a member in good standing just to read posts. And they won't ever give me that right again for as long as I live, apparently. That's how much they hated me I guess.

I don't go there (or here) much any more. All the same. I just posted a little tonight and got the same combative responses from the hyper-critical. There really isn't a desire to dialogue as much as the want and need to argue and one-up. I'm fine with that. It's interesting to be away for a bit and then come back. You see questions as reasonable and offer reasonable responses, but those who are there in the trenches everyday are hardened and ready to pounce on any post you make, looking for a fight.

So it goes.

I rather enjoy the time away. Sadly I do come back to see if there is anything new to think about or entertain, but the same posters simply create the same threads with the same arguments so even that gets boring.

[Billyray]

Sadly I do come back to see if there is anything new to think about or entertain, but the same posters simply create the same threads with the same arguments so even that gets boring.
Do you really expect any more new information than we already have? The same major issues are still there and still the major reasons that Christians believe Mormons are not Christian, namely you believe in false gods and follow a false gospel. Most of the other stuff is trivial in comparison.

[nrajeffreturns]

Both are sinners like the rest of us and deserving of death. However those who come to Christ by faith will be saved from their sins.
So you're saying that Moses the Murderer came to Christ, and was therefore saved from his sins. What Bible are you quoting from? And what % of Christianity agrees with you that OT Jews came to Christ?

[RealFakeHair]

So you're saying that Moses the Murderer came to Christ, and was therefore saved from his sins. What Bible are you quoting from? And what % of Christianity agrees with you that OT Jews came to Christ?

Now that's funny!
What % of mormons really, I mean really believe the word (christian) was used in pre-Columbus America 100 of years before the word was first used in Antioch?

Please jeff, don't say you believe in such BS.

[Billyray]

So you're saying that Moses the Murderer came to Christ, and was therefore saved from his sins.

Moses was saved and so was David and both looked forward to the coming Messiah which is Christ.

[nrajeffreturns]

You said, referring to Moses and Paul: "those who come to Christ by faith will be saved from their sins."

So was Moses a Christian? Yes or no? Many people say he was a Jew. And many people say that Judaism is not the same religion as Christianity.

[Billyray]

You said, referring to Moses and Paul: "those who come to Christ by faith will be saved from their sins."

So was Moses a Christian? Yes or no? Many people say he was a Jew. And many people say that Judaism is not the same religion as Christianity.

Moses looked forward to the Messiah which is Christ and was saved by placing his trust in Him for salvation. Paul was saved when he place his trust in Christ to save him. Both those in the OT and the NT are saved by placing their trust in Christ--for those in the OT it was the coming Messiah.

[Billyray]

You said, referring to Moses and Paul: "those who come to Christ by faith will be saved from their sins."

Now your turn. Lets look at OT believers--was Moses and David saved and if so what was the basis for their salvation?

[Billyray]

So was Moses a Christian? Yes or no? Many people say he was a Jew. And many people say that Judaism is not the same religion as Christianity.



Because of David's transgressions, his eternal blessings were taken from him (TPJS, pp. 188-89). The Lord granted David a continuation of life for another twenty-one years, perhaps because of his immediate and deep remorse (cf. Ps. 51), his acts of repentance, and his continued faithfulness to Jehovah (2 Sam. 12:13, 16; cf. WJS, p. 335). However, he must await in the spirit prison the redemption promised to him (Acts 2:34; WJS, p. 74). Even with the ***urance of the Lord's ultimate mercy (Ps. 86:13), David lost much that God had given him on earth, he fell "from his exaltation" and his wives were given unto another" (D&C 132:39). Yet his personal integrity appears in his insistence that he be punished in place of his people, whom he saw in vision being destroyed (2 Sam. 24:15-17).

LDS believe that David lost his exaltation and must wait in "spirit prison". Certainly you must believe that David was a man of faith. Wouldn't it be fair to say that the reason that David is in "spirit prison" is because he didn't enough works to earn his exaltation?

[nrajeffreturns]

LDS believe that David lost his exaltation and must wait in "spirit prison". Certainly you must believe that David was a man of faith.
His faith apparently wasn't strong enough to keep him from being a murderer in order to cover up his adultery.


Wouldn't it be fair to say that the reason that David is in "spirit prison" is because he didn't enough works to earn his exaltation?
I think it would be more fair to say about him what Paul warned the Hebrews about:

If he sinned wilfully after he had received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation.

Paul also taught that it is impossible for him who was once enlightened, and had tasted of the heavenly gift, and was made a partaker of the Holy Ghost & had tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

if he fell away, to renew him again unto repentance.

[Billyray]

I think it would be more fair to say about him what Paul warned the Hebrews about:

If he sinned wilfully after he had received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation.

Paul also taught that it is impossible for him who was once enlightened, and had tasted of the heavenly gift, and was made a partaker of the Holy Ghost & had tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

if he fell away, to renew him again unto repentance.
You have completely botched that section of scripture but that is for a different discussion. So would you say that given heaven or hell that David will end up in hell?

[nrajeffreturns]

You have completely botched that section of scripture
Have I?

Explain how those verses DON'T apply to David. Here, I'll make it easy for you to answer:

1. Are you saying Davd DIDN'T sin willfully after he had received the knowledge of the truth? Because if he did, then Paul says there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation.

2. Are you saying David HADN'T been enlightened and tasted of the heavenly gift, and been made a partaker of the Holy Ghost & tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come? Because if he had and then fell away then it is impossible for him to renew him again unto repentance.

So tell me how those verses don't apply to David. If you can.


So would you say that given heaven or hell that David will end up in hell?
Aren't you asking me the wrong question, since you're asking me to answer as if I were a Calvinist who only believes in those 2 extremes?

[Billyray]

Have I?

Explain how those verses DON'T apply to David.

Because David trusted in the Messiah and was saved.

[Billyray]

Billyray
So would you say that given heaven or hell that David will end up in hell?

Jeff
Aren't you asking me the wrong question, since you're asking me to answer as if I were a Calvinist who only believes in those 2 extremes?
No I am asking you the right question because the Bible speaks about a heaven and a hell. Not about a tiered level of heaven where some go to heaven and yet are separated from God the Father. Here's my question again for you.

So would you say that David will end up in heaven or hell?

[Billyray]

If he sinned wilfully after he had received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

Peter willfully sinned when rejected Christ three times--even after he was given advanced warning. Are you saying that it is YOUR belief that "there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins" for Peter and that he is also in Hell with David?

[nrajeffreturns]

Because David trusted in the Messiah and was saved.

So you're saying that David DID NOT sin willfully after he had received the knowledge of the truth?

[Billyray]

So you're saying that David DID NOT sin willfully after he had received the knowledge of the truth?
David is a sinner, you are a sinner, and I am a sinner. LDS seem to have a hard time with this concept.

[Billyray]

Peter willfully sinned when rejected Christ three times--even after he was given advanced warning. Are you saying that it is YOUR belief that "there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins" for Peter and that he is also in Hell with David?
Jeff are you going to answer this question or are you going to p***?

[nrajeffreturns]

David is a sinner, you are a sinner, and I am a sinner. LDS seem to have a hard time with this concept.

But you don't believe that MY sinning has occurred after I got a knowledge of the truth. You put you and David into the category of "people who willfully sinned after they got a knowledge of the truth, had partaken of the Holy Spirit, etc."


So when David committed his sins of adultery and murder to cover up the adultery, you're saying that it was NOT a case of willfully sinning after he had received the knowledge of the truth?

[Billyray]

But you don't believe that MY sinning has occurred after I got a knowledge of the truth.
That is certainly true Jeff because you don't hold to the truth. But you have been given the truth over and over again so you do have a knowledge of the truth--but you have chosen to reject it thus far.


You put you and David into the category of "people who willfully sinned after they got a knowledge of the truth, had partaken of the Holy Spirit, etc."

That is correct. But you have botched the interpretation of the verse that you are quoting. ANYONE who comes to Christ (or the coming Messiah in the case of David) and places their faith in Him to save them will be saved. BTW if you are going to condemn David then you have to equally condemn Peter fro denying Christ 3 times and anyone else for that matter.

[Billyray]

Peter willfully sinned when rejected Christ three times--even after he was given advanced warning. Are you saying that it is YOUR belief that "there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins" for Peter and that he is also in Hell with David?
Are you ever going to get around to answering my question?

[nrajeffreturns]

That is certainly true Jeff because you don't hold to the truth.
But you, as a good Calvinist, believe that us unregenerated, unsaved folks are not even ABLE to come to a knowledge of the truth in our current state of unsaved-ness. Right? So I am not at a stage where there is "no more sacrifice" for MY sins, according to your Calvinism. According to you, I haven't been "enlightened and tasted of the heavenly gift, and been made a partaker of the Holy Ghost & tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come"---right? Therefore, even if I fall away it is still possible for me to be "renewed again unto repentance."

[Billyray]

But you, as a good Calvinist, believe that us unregenerated, unsaved folks are not even ABLE to come to a knowledge of the truth in our current state of unsaved-ness. Right? So I am not at a stage where there is "no more sacrifice" for MY sins, according to your Calvinism. According to you, I haven't been "enlightened and tasted of the heavenly gift, and been made a partaker of the Holy Ghost & tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come"---right? Therefore, even if I fall away it is still possible for me to be "renewed again unto repentance."
Jeff I believe what the Bible teaches not extraBiblical teachings, you would, and you would label my beliefs as Calvinist. If you have a specific question about what I believe I would be happy to discuss it and show you the verses that form the basis for my beliefs. You keep quoting Heb 6:4-8 and below is the ESV Study Bible commentary on these verses. I hold to the second position.

ESV Study Bible
Heb. 6:4–8
This p***age has been subject to substantially different interpretations. The central debate concerns whether the descriptions of vv. 4–5 (e.g., “enlightened,” “tasted the heavenly gift,” “shared in the Holy Spirit,” “tasted of the goodness of the word of God”) depict people who were once true Christians. (1) Some argue these phrases do describe true Christians, implying that Christians can “fall away” and lose their salvation (cf. note on 3:14, however, indicating a fundamental difficulty with this view). Nonetheless, most who advocate this view hold that some who backslide can still return to Christian faith, thus limiting 6:4–6 to hardened cases of apostasy in which it is “impossible … to restore them again to repentance” (vv. 4, 6). (2) Most argue, however, that although these people may have participated fully in the Christian covenantal community (where they experienced enlightened instruction in the Word of God, where they saw public repentance occur, and where the Holy Spirit was at work in powerful ways), when such people do “fall away” it is clear that they are not true Christians because they have not made a true, saving response to the gospel, resulting in genuine faith, love, and perseverance (vv. 9–12). Significantly, they are like land that received much rain but bore no good fruit, only “thorns and thistles” (v. 8). They may have participated outwardly in the Christian community and they even may have shared in the blessings of Christian fellowship; but, like the seed that fell on rocky ground in the parable of the sower, “they have no root” (Mark 4:17) and they “fall away” when faced with persecution. . . ."

[Billyray]

So when David committed his sins of adultery and murder to cover up the adultery, you're saying that it was NOT a case of willfully sinning after he had received the knowledge of the truth?I take it that you believe that David will end up in hell. Is that a fair ***essment of your position?

[nrajeffreturns]

I take it that you believe that David will end up in hell. Is that a fair ***essment of your position?

You asked me previously to answer as if I were a modern mainstreamer who only believed in the 2 extremes of heaven and hell. So if you want me to pretend to be a modern mainstreamer while I answer your question, then based on my reading of THE TEXT of BIBLE and not a commentary, my answer would be: In hell.

After all, David was a Jew, and us mainstreamers all know that Judaism follows the Law with all its works-based salvation, right? Plus, David showed no evidence that he was a Trinitarian, so right there he's in trouble, since you MUST faithfully believe in the Trinity in order to be saved, according to the Athanasian Creed. Plus, looking at David's life history, he had experienced tons of miracles and seen God's hand at work in many ways, starting with the Goliath miracle. So when, as an adult and king of Israel, he had his faithful soldier Uriah killed in order to cover up the adultery with Uriah's wife Bathsheba, it's evidence that "he never was a Christian" like you guys say about Bart Ehrman and maybe Pastor Ted.

So, to summarize: Looks like David is with his buddy Samson, who ALSO went from mighty hero to big zero because of "the wandering eye."

[Billyray]

So if you want me to pretend to be a modern mainstreamer while I answer your question, then based on my reading of THE TEXT of BIBLE and not a commentary, my answer would be: In hell.

So do you believe David's child who died is in hell WITH him?

[nrajeffreturns]

So do you believe David's child who died is in hell WITH him?
Of course not. It would be absurd to believe that. David believed his kid was in heaven, and he hoped that when he died he would join his kid in heaven. What the Bible fails to tell us is whether David's hope turned out to be true.

[Billyray]

Of course not.
The verse never said that he would hope that he would be with his son. If you believe that David went to hell then you must also hold that his son did as well.

[Billyray]

Peter willfully sinned when rejected Christ three times--even after he was given advanced warning. Are you saying that it is YOUR belief that "there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins" for Peter and that he is also in Hell with David?
Bump for Jeff

[nrajeffreturns]

The verse never said that he would hope that he would be with his son.
That was his belief. Obviously it was his hope, since it would end in the happy reunion in heaven. So obviously he hoped it would come true.


If you believe that David went to hell then you must also hold that his son did as well.
Actually, no, I am not required to believe that.

[Billyray]

That was his belief. Obviously it was his hope, since it would end in the happy reunion in heaven. So obviously he hoped it would come true.

2 Samuel 12:23 But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shallgo to him, but he shall not return to me.

Jeff now you are making stuff up because you were backed into a corner on this one.

[nrajeffreturns]

2 Samuel 12:23 But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shallgo to him, but he shall not return to me.


You're taking that as an inspired prophetic prediction, when it's just as probable that it was an emotional statement. He didn't say "Thus saith the Lord, I will definitely go to heaven and hang out with my dead son, despite the horrible crimes I committed." And by the way: Do you believe that everything David said was true?

[Billyray]

You're taking that as an inspired prophetic prediction, when it's just as probable that it was an emotional statement. He didn't say "Thus saith the Lord, I will definitely go to heaven and hang out with my dead son, despite the horrible crimes I committed." And by the way: Do you believe that everything David said was true?

You didn't seem to have a problem using David's words to support the position that children who die go to heaven. That is a major problem with Mormonism--it trains you to disavow God's word. In this case you are taught that David wasn't saved which makes it easy for you to disavow anything he says.

[dberrie2000]

No the verse doesn't say that but the NT makes it clear that every single one of us are sinners and we will be judged by God's laws and we will all fall short.

Well--if we all fall short--then no one will be saved.

What the Bible does state is that all will be judged according to our works--after death--and that for life or ****ation:


John 5:28-29---King James Version (KJV)


28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation.


If those who "done good" receive of life--then how did they fall short?


The only hope than any one of us has is to place our trust in Christ to save us.

Are these among those who place their trust in Christ?


1 John 1:7---King James Version (KJV)


7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.





Those who do will be saved and those who depend on their own works will be judged and come up short.

Again--how do those who do good come up short? Short of what?


John 5:28-29---King James Version (KJV)


28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation.

[Billyray]

Well--if we all fall short--then no one will be saved.

Romans 4:5However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.

[dberrie2000]

Romans 4:5However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.

But that is a reference to Abraham and those who lived under the gospel--not those who lived under the Law of works--the Mosaic Law. Abraham was given God's grace due to his obedience under the gospel--not the law of works:



Genesis 26:4-5---King James Version (KJV)


4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;

5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.




God justified all men of life--the ungodly alike--in His Atonement:


Romans 5:18---King James Version (KJV)


18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

[Billyray]

But that is a reference to Abraham and those who lived under the gospel--

Romans 4:5However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.

Then you are in agreement that the ungodly are justified by faith and not by works such as Abraham and those who live under the gospel. Good to see we are in agreement.

[nrajeffreturns]

Romans 4:5However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.

Then you are in agreement that the ungodly are justified by faith and not by works such as Abraham and those who live under the gospel. Good to see we are in agreement.

But Abraham was not ungodly, right? So who are these ungodly people the scripture mentions? Maybe it's all those Mormons who don't believe everything you believe about God, but have a lot of faith.

[James Banta]

But Abraham was not ungodly, right? So who are these ungodly people the scripture mentions? Maybe it's all those Mormons who don't believe everything you believe about God, but have a lot of faith.

Abram was ungodly just like all other men until the day that faith was found in his heart and God counted it for righteousness (Gen 15:6). Then because God made him righteous Abram became a godly man. Abram was ungodly until God changed him. As we trust God He changes us from ungodly to godly just as He did Abram..

The LDS are filled with faith in a god that is NOT present in the Bible.. It's the same thing as having faith in an old frayed rope. It never failed you before but when you really need it it breaks.. IHS jim

[nrajeffreturns]

Abram was ungodly just like all other men until the day that faith was found in his heart and God counted it for righteousness (Gen 15:6). Then because God made him righteous Abram became a godly man.

So was Abram ungodly on the day God told him to slaughter his son? Was that the day Abram became godly through obedience and doing a work? And do you agree with Billy that Jesus is not the only way to salvation?

[Billyray]

But Abraham was not ungodly, right? So who are these ungodly people the scripture mentions? Maybe it's all those Mormons who don't believe everything you believe about God, but have a lot of faith.
We are ALL sinners Jeff. For some reason you still don't seem to get that.

Romans 4:5However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.

Tell me what this verse says?

[nrajeffreturns]

We are ALL sinners Jeff. For some reason you still don't seem to get that.
What about that Chinese baby who was flushed down the sewer pipe by his parents because they didn't want to pay the "baby tax"? What sins did that baby commit, that made him a sinner as you claim?



Romans 4:5However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.
Tell me what this verse says?

Well, the JST says that it's mistranslated or mistransmitted. JST says that God justifies NOT the ungodly, which makes a lot more sense and agrees with other Bible verses that say that justification comes by doing GOOD things, such as obeying, having faith, etc.

[Billyray]

What about that Chinese baby who was flushed down the sewer pipe by his parents because they didn't want to pay the "baby tax"? What sins did that baby commit, that made him a sinner as you claim?

Let's take your point of view for a moment. A baby/child is perfectly obedient to the law--but does not place his or her faith in Christ. Is the basis of salvation for that baby/child his own works of the law?

[Billyray]

Well, the JST says that it's mistranslated or mistransmitted. JST says that God justifies NOT the ungodly, which makes a lot more sense and agrees with other Bible verses that say that justification comes by doing GOOD things, such as obeying, having faith, etc.
Romans 4:5However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.

So the LDS way around this verse--since it contradicts the LDS works righteousness--is to say that this was "mistransmitted". Do you have any evidence for this?

[nrajeffreturns]

Let's take your point of view for a moment. A baby/child is perfectly obedient to the law--but does not place his or her faith in Christ. Is the basis of salvation for that baby/child his own works of the law?
Uh, babies aren't able to obey or disobey the commandments because they don't yet have the ability to read or understand the language it would take to explain the commandments to them. Or do you really think that a 1-year-old can understand what "Thou shalt not commit adultery" means?

[nrajeffreturns]

Romans 4:5However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.

So the LDS way around this verse--since it contradicts the LDS works righteousness--is to say that this was "mistransmitted". Do you have any evidence for this?

Sure: "In the JST Romans 4:5 reads, "But to him that seeketh not to be justified by the law of works, but believeth on him who justifieth not the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness."


http://www.mrm.org/faith-alone-in-jst

[Billyray]

Sure: "In the JST Romans 4:5 reads, "But to him that seeketh not to be justified by the law of works, but believeth on him who justifieth not the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness."


http://www.mrm.org/faith-alone-in-jst
Do any of the thousands of ancient m****cripts support Joseph's translation?


Romans 4
1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
9 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.


Let's look at the verse in question and see if Joseph's translation fits with the surrounding verses. Do you think that it fits?

[Billyray]

Uh, babies aren't able to obey or disobey the commandments because they don't yet have the ability to read or understand the language it would take to explain the commandments to them. Or do you really think that a 1-year-old can understand what "Thou shalt not commit adultery" means?
If they are sinless then they are by definition obeying the laws of God. Right?

So do you believe that the basis for salvation for babies/children is their perfect obedience to the laws of God?

[nrajeffreturns]

If they are sinless then they are by definition obeying the laws of God. Right?
Or it just means that the fetus or baby is unable to sin, and is therefore sinless by definition.


So do you believe that the basis for salvation for babies/children is their perfect obedience to the laws of God?
If they have committed no sins, they don't really deserve an eternity in hell, IMO. Do you think my position is wrong?

[Billyray]

Or it just means that the fetus or baby is unable to sin, and is therefore sinless by definition.

Which is what I said that they are obeying the laws of God. Right?

[Billyray]

If they have committed no sins, they don't really deserve an eternity in hell, IMO. Do you think my position is wrong?
So do you believe that the basis for salvation for babies/children is their perfect obedience to the laws of God NOT based on Christ and his sacrifice?

[nrajeffreturns]

Which is what I said that they are obeying the laws of God. Right?

Are they helping the poor and needy?

[Apologette]

Are they helping the poor and needy?

Infants and children are saved under the Atonement which encomp***es all the Old Testmanet sacrifices, including "sins of innocence".

[nrajeffreturns]

Infants and children are saved under the Atonement which encomp***es all the Old Testmanet sacrifices, including "sins of innocence".

While us LDS obviously agree with your belief that infants and very young children are saved thanks to the atonement if they die in their innocent years--a 'grace period' so to speak--I fear that some Evangelicals might disagree with you (and us LDS) on this.

[Billyray]

While us LDS obviously agree with your belief that infants and very young children are saved thanks to the atonement if they die in their innocent years--
But you believe that these children are sinless. What sins did Christ pay for if they were indeed without sin?

[James Banta]

So was Abram ungodly on the day God told him to slaughter his son? Was that the day Abram became godly through obedience and doing a work? And do you agree with Billy that Jesus is not the only way to salvation?


Look at the p***age again where it says that God saw Abram's faith as righteousness and see that it was done LONG before he was ever commanded to take Issac to the mountain for sacrifice. When Abram was made righteous in God's eyes did that not include the fact that he was made obedient in God's eyes at the same time? How could a man be made righteous and be considered disobedient at the same time? Therefore Abram was made righteous (obedience) by God's grace through faith the same way that all the people of God through the ages have been made perfect before Him. I agree with Billy that Jesus is the only Way to salvation. That good works are NOT the WAY. We receive the Way to God, the Truth of God. and the Life of God as a free gift by God's grace through faith in Jesus.. That is unlike the LDS that have been teaching here that obedience and personal righteousness (self righteousness) is the way to God and Jesus is only there only to aid them in that pursuit. IHS jim

[nrajeffreturns]

Look at the p***age again where it says that God saw Abram's faith as righteousness and see that it was done LONG before he was ever commanded to take Issac to the mountain for sacrifice.When Abram was made righteous in God's eyes did that not include the fact that he was made obedient in God's eyes at the same time? How could a man be made righteous and be considered disobedient at the same time?

That was my point: How does God know who is righteous and who isn't? Based on how OBEDIENT they are.


I agree with Billy that Jesus is the only Way to salvation.
You mean you agree with the LDS on that. Billy was saying that Jesus is not the only way.

[Apologette]

That was my point: How does God know who is righteous and who isn't? Based on how OBEDIENT they are.


You mean you agree with the LDS on that. Billy was saying that Jesus is not the only way.

Technically, there are two ways to stand in the day of Judgment, Jeff. One way is to have been totally perfect in one's nature and to have never committed an actual sin - this is not possible, which is why (No. 2) Christ had to come to fulfill the Law on our behalf. He Who knew NO sin, became sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him. Think that over.

[Billyray]

Billy was saying that Jesus is not the only way.
Jeff it amazes me how you try and distort what I believe. But I have come to expect that from you.


"Paul and Perfect Obedience to the Law: An Evaluation of the View of E. P. Sanders"--Thomas R. Schreiner
​http://www.sbts.edu/theology/faculty/thomas-schreiner/

Conclusion. . .
Paul did consistently teach that justification cannot be obtained via law because no one can keep the law perfectly. Paul’s basicargument is this:

(1) One must obey the law perfectly to be saved.
(2) No one obeys the law perfectly.
(3) Therefore, no one can be saved by the works of the law.

[nrajeffreturns]

Jeff it amazes me how you try and distort what I believe.

Would you say that your level of amazement is about equal to how amazed LDS people are by your attempts to distort what they believe?

[James Banta]

That was my point: How does God know who is righteous and who isn't? Based on how OBEDIENT they are.


You mean you agree with the LDS on that. Billy was saying that Jesus is not the only way.

God is God.. He knows us better than we know us. he knows what we will do and how we will react long before we make our decisions on any subject. He has known if we would accept His GIFT of life long before creation was ever formed. Since not one of us is obedient there would be nothing to be done with us other then to cast us into the lake of fire and be lost if obedience were the way by which we are to be judged. Not one of us has come up to the level of obedience required to deserve life. Matthew 5:48 stands there as a command that would condemn each of us and demand our ****ation if salvation was by obedience.

I mean BILLY. Billy holds the Biblical doctrine that we are ALL SINNERS AND WITHOUT THE IMPUTED RIGHTEOUSNESS OF JESUS ON ALL WHO BELIEVE we would be ****ed to the lake of fire. All the work done by God in the person of Jesus, and the reward of that work given to all who trust Him.. No matter how hard you try you still sin.. Maybe you are a lot stronger than me and don't sin hourly, but according to God's word you still sin. Even the Apostle Paul sinned. You can't tell you that you don't without again sinning.. Lies are sins.. Hey let me know that by your own will power you start being obedient yo Matthew 5:48.. I will want you as King and absolute ruler of the WORLD.. IHS jim

[James Banta]

Would you say that your level of amazement is about equal to how amazed LDS people are by your attempts to distort what they believe?

Show me one doctrine that we have distorted.. I learned what I know about mormonism from MORMONS. In reading the standard works attending Sunday School, Priesthood meetings, MIA, Seminary, Sacrament Meetings, and conferences (Ward, Stake, and General).. I will grant you that there are a lot of different ideas in the LDS church on doctrines. But unless the President of the church judges them as inaccurate or out and out perverted they have as much authority as what you hold to be absolute truth.. There is NOTHING that is mormon doctrine. from the first vision to the final judgment at the end of days. There are as many different doctrines in mormonism as there are mormons.. The sad thing is they are all based on the lies of Joseph Smith.. IHS jim

[nrajeffreturns]

God is God.. He knows us better than we know us.
He also knows that it wasn't HIM who created you and all other baby humans as evil beings.

If God is good, then He didn't create any evil beings. So your Calvinism is wrong and unbiblical right there.


Since not one of us is obedient
So you're saying that you were not being obedient when you turned against LDS doctrines?


I mean BILLY.
Billy says that there is a way other than Jesus that leads to eternal life.


Even the Apostle Paul sinned.
That doesn't prove that your belief--that God created all human babies evil--is correct.


Lies are sins.
If that is true, then there's a whole lotta anti-LDS folks who have sinned.

[Billyray]

Would you say that your level of amazement is about equal to how amazed LDS people are by your attempts to distort what they believe?
I don't distort what LDS believe unlike you who distorts what I believe and since I have told you multiple times you still do it which makes me believe you are doing it on purpose.

[Billyray]

If God is good, then He didn't create any evil beings. So your Calvinism is wrong and unbiblical right there.
Calvinism doesn't teach that God created "evil beings".

Genesis 1:31 God saw all that He had made, and behold, it was very good.


So you're saying that you were not being obedient when you turned against LDS doctrines?

Sure he was being obedient when he left Mormonism for Christianity.


Billy says that there is a way other than Jesus that leads to eternal life.

"Paul and Perfect Obedience to the Law: An Evaluation of the View of E. P. Sanders"--Thomas R. Schreiner
​http://www.sbts.edu/theology/faculty/thomas-schreiner/

Conclusion. . .
Paul did consistently teach that justification cannot be obtained via law because no one can keep the law perfectly. Paul’s basicargument is this:

(1) One must obey the law perfectly to be saved.
(2) No one obeys the law perfectly.
(3) Therefore, no one can be saved by the works of the law.


If that is true, then there's a whole lotta anti-LDS folks who have sinned.

We ALL sin Jeff. The Bible states this very clearly, yet you reject what it says.

[nrajeffreturns]

I don't distort what LDS believe ...
Then how do you explain all the amazement from the LDS at your distortions of what they believe?

[nrajeffreturns]

Calvinism doesn't teach that God created "evil beings".
Did God create you?
Are you evil?
Was there ever a time in your existence when you WEREN'T evil?

Then you believe that God created you evil.


Sure he was being obedient when he left Mormonism for Christianity.
But he said that not one of us is obedient . Are you saying he wasn't telling the truth?

[Apologette]

Did God create you?
Are you evil?
Was there ever a time in your existence when you WEREN'T evil?

Then you believe that God created you evil.


But he said that not one of us is obedient . Are you saying he wasn't telling the truth?

God created man and said "it was good." Men turned from God, and all men fell "in" Adam. Therefore the seed of Adam is born tainted by sin. God creates the spirit within men, but when joined to the fallen human within the womb, the spirit itself is born dead to God and needs to be reborn. Jesus taught this Jeff.

[nrajeffreturns]

I would like to see Billy's answers to the questions:

1. Did God create you? Y/N
2. Are you evil? Y/N
3. Was there ever a time in your existence when you WEREN'T evil? Y/N

[Apologette]

Jeff, the word is not "evil." The word is "fallen." In Adam ALL men fell. But in Christ we are made alive. Break it down. If you are not in Christ you are still fallen and subject to false doctrines, which are, by the way, evil.

[Billyray]

Then how do you explain all the amazement from the LDS at your distortions of what they believe?
Jeff you are being dishonest. Do you really think that this type of behavior helps your support of Mormonism?

[Billyray]

I would like to see Billy's answers to the questions:

1. Did God create you? Y/N
2. Are you evil? Y/N
3. Was there ever a time in your existence when you WEREN'T evil? Y/N
We were all created by God. And we are all sinners. You are trying to blame God for man's sins. We all make choices and we are all responsible for the choices that we make. But God has given us the opportunity to accept Christ and place our faith in Him for salvation.

[nrajeffreturns]

So by refusing to answer the questions and instead offering the above, you're trying to be evasive and deceptive and hide your beliefs. Do you really think such dishonesty will convert people to your Calvinism?

[Billyray]

"My dream and hope and aspiration: Members of the 1stP and the Q12 are walked out of the [Church Office Building] or their homes in handcuffs for tax evasion, racketeering, money-laundering,...Add the gender discrimination and fraud suits that many will pile onto the criminal charges, and I think 2013-14 just might be a banner moment. Maybe I'm dreaming. But some of us are working on it."
—MormonThink's second managing editor, posting as "Jesus Smith" on Recovery from Mormonism, December 26, 2012. . .
So you have nothing thus far from any Christians on this board? Yet you made the following claim.

Would you say that your level of amazement is about equal to how amazed LDS people are by your attempts to distort what they believe?

[nrajeffreturns]

Um, Billy, you are confusing two different threads. Go check out the context of each, and the posts I was responding to in each, so you will know what's going on.

[Billyray]

Um, Billy, you are confusing two different threads. Go check out the context of each, and the posts I was responding to in each, so you will know what's going on.
Your quotes are fair game no matter which thread they are in especially given the fact that it is relevant to the discussion. You were huffing and puffing about how I distorted what LDS believe but you have yet to give me an example. Perhaps you should ask yourself why that is. In fact we haven't really talked that much about Mormonism lately because you enjoy discussing Calvinism. But so do I because it is supported by the Bible and Mormonism is not and that probably really irks you.

[nrajeffreturns]

Your quotes are fair game no matter which thread they are in

That is a false statement and shows your disingenuousness, which continues to be a disappointment.
My response to Apologette's request

("Give me an example of how they misrepresent the Church")

was OBVIOUSLY referring to the the people who run MormonThink .

Have you really reached such a level of desperation that you feel you have to try deceptions like the one you just tried?

[Apologette]

That is a false statement and shows your disingenuousness, which continues to be a disappointment.
My response to Apologette's request

("Give me an example of how they misrepresent the Church")

was OBVIOUSLY referring to the the people who run MormonThink .

Have you really reached such a level of desperation that you feel you have to try deceptions like the one you just tried?

I don't believe the Church was misrepresented - why not PROVE to us where the huge income of your cult goes? Where? You don't even know Jeff, do you? Until you can prove otherwise, all you have is a opinion as do those who hold another opinion. Your cult keeps finances a secret, AS DO ALL CULTS!

[nrajeffreturns]

I don't believe the Church was misrepresented
That is hardly a surprise.


Until you can prove otherwise, all you have is a opinion
So the accused have to prove their innocence or else they must be branded guilty? Is the Spanish Inquisition back in town?

And how about we discuss actual misrepresentation of LDS doctrine, such as Billy's claim that LDS have a works-BASED soteriology?

[Apologette]

That is hardly a surprise.


So the accused have to prove their innocence or else they must be branded guilty? Is the Spanish Inquisition back in town?

And how about we discuss actual misrepresentation of LDS doctrine, such as Billy's claim that LDS have a works-BASED soteriology?

The question is, how have Christians misrepresented the Church? Have I? Do I not always post connected links to verify what I'm saying.? And of course Mormons have a works soteriology, look at D&C 132, where your "god" says he judges by works, not faith.

[nrajeffreturns]

The question is, how have Christians misrepresented the Church? Have I?
Of course. It would be a true miracle if there has never been a case of a Christian misrepresenting some other group. Look at what Luther said about Jews. Are you claiming Luther wasn't a Christian? Or are you claiming that Luther, a Christian, was correct in what he said about Jews? It's got to be one or the other, so choose ye this day which is the truth.


Do I not always post connected links to verify what I'm saying.?
No. Not always. But if everyone posted links to every single accusation they made about someone else, this would be very boring site.


And of course Mormons have a works soteriology, look at D&C 132, where your "god" says he judges by works, not faith.
The NT of the BIBLE ALSO has verses stating that God will judge people based on their works--a happy judgment if their works were good, and a scary judgement if their works were evil.

So you just accused the NT of teaching a works-based soteriology because it contains such verses. Nice! This is what Seebok used to call a scorched-earth strategy, and I used to call the atomic hand grenade attack.

In contrast to that, I offer this: Both the NT and the LDS teach a CHRIST-based soteriology, where CHRIST is the BASIS for any salvation that occurs, because without Christ, no one would be saved. The fact that obedience is one ingredient in the recipe does not make the recipe obedience-BASED, any more than a pinch of salt in a bread recipe makes the bread SALT-based instead of FLOUR-based.

I hope that helped straighten out some misrepresenta....er, 'misunderstandings.' :)

[Billyray]

And how about we discuss actual misrepresentation of LDS doctrine, such as Billy's claim that LDS have a works-BASED soteriology?

Mormonism is a works based salvation Jeff. That is not a misrepresentation that is simply a fact. In order to be exalted faith along with works of righteousness are required. Contrast this to Christianity which teaches that we are saved by faith and NOT by works.


Spencer W Kimball--Miracle of Forgiveness
"Eternal life hangs in the balance awaiting the works of men. This process toward eternal life is a matter of achieving perfection. Living all the commandments guarantees total forgiveness of sins and ***ures one of exaltation through the perfection which comes by complying with the formula the Lord gave us... Being perfect means to triumph over sin. This is a mandate from the Lord. He is just and wise and kind. He would never require anything from his children which was not for their benefit and which was not attainable. Perfection therefore is an achievable goal." (p. 208)

[nrajeffreturns]

Mormonism is a works based salvation Jeff. That is not a misrepresentation that is simply a fact.
No, you are still misrepresenting the BASIS of, or FOUNDATION of, salvation in LDS doctrine. The correct answer is "CHRIST-based salvation." Or, if you want to get more specific, "CHRIST'S ATONEMENT-based salvation," since thanks to Christ and His atonement, salvation is possible and is available to all of us.

But if you insist on playing the misrepresentation game, then 2 can play, of course, as you can see in the following representation of your beliefs:

You have a DEAD FAITH-based soteriology. You believe that salvation is based on dead faith.

(Dead faith is faith that is so lame that obedience and charity don't accompany it)

In other words, you don't believe that CHRIST is the basis or source of salvation--dead faith is.

Now, how would you feel if I said "That is not a misrepresentation that is simply a fact" ???

[Billyray]

But if you insist on playing the misrepresentation game
I have never misrepresented your position. You believe in a works based salvation/exaltation which is faith PLUS lots of works in order to be saved.

[Billyray]

Tell me Jeff what differentiates a person who ends up in the Terrestrial Kingdom from a person who ends up in the Celestial kingdom?

What differentiates a person who ends up in the lowest level of the Celestial Kingdom verses a person to goes to the top level of the Celestial Kingdom?

[nrajeffreturns]

I have never misrepresented your position.
Except for pretty much every time you post, that is...


You believe in a works based salvation/exaltation which is faith PLUS lots of works in order to be saved.
Then YOU believe in a dead-faith-based salvation which is faith alone--no obedience, no Jesus, no grace, no atonement, just faith. You believe that the BASIS for salvation is mere faith.

Oh, and I have never misrepresented your position.

See? I can play your game at LEAST as well as you can. And yet you insist in wanting to keep playing it.

Sad to see.

[Billyray]

Except for pretty much every time you post, that is...

Then you should be able to back up your claim with actual evidence, but thus far you haven't.


Then YOU believe in a dead-faith-based salvation which is faith alone--no obedience, no Jesus, no grace, no atonement, just faith. You believe that the BASIS for salvation is mere faith.

Dead faith = No faith.

We are saved by faith and NOT by works. The thief was saved and he didn't have works.

[Apologette]

Of course. It would be a true miracle if there has never been a case of a Christian misrepresenting some other group. Look at what Luther said about Jews. Are you claiming Luther wasn't a Christian? Or are you claiming that Luther, a Christian, was correct in what he said about Jews? It's got to be one or the other, so choose ye this day which is the truth.


No. Not always. But if everyone posted links to every single accusation they made about someone else, this would be very boring site.


The NT of the BIBLE ALSO has verses stating that God will judge people based on their works--a happy judgment if their works were good, and a scary judgement if their works were evil.

So you just accused the NT of teaching a works-based soteriology because it contains such verses. Nice! This is what Seebok used to call a scorched-earth strategy, and I used to call the atomic hand grenade attack.

In contrast to that, I offer this: Both the NT and the LDS teach a CHRIST-based soteriology, where CHRIST is the BASIS for any salvation that occurs, because without Christ, no one would be saved. The fact that obedience is one ingredient in the recipe does not make the recipe obedience-BASED, any more than a pinch of salt in a bread recipe makes the bread SALT-based instead of FLOUR-based.

I hope that helped straighten out some misrepresenta....er, 'misunderstandings.' :)
Look how Briggy misrepresented African Americans! Come on Jeff, the LDS soteriology is a mix of belief in the church, secret rituals, and faith in the priesthood powers. The Jesus of Mormonism is a figment of Joe and Young's imagination.

[James Banta]

Show me one doctrine that we have distorted.. I learned what I know about mormonism from MORMONS. In reading the standard works attending Sunday School, Priesthood meetings, MIA, Seminary, Sacrament Meetings, and conferences (Ward, Stake, and General).. I will grant you that there are a lot of different ideas in the LDS church on doctrines. But unless the President of the church judges them as inaccurate or out and out perverted they have as much authority as what you hold to be absolute truth.. There is NOTHING that is mormon doctrine. from the first vision to the final judgment at the end of days. There are as many different doctrines in mormonism as there are mormons.. The sad thing is they are all based on the lies of Joseph Smith.. IHS jim


That is what I thought.. You complain and stomp around saying "You distort that the LDS church teaches". But when it comes down to it you can't point to one doctrine we condemn as being distorted by us.. Did Brigham Young teach that Adam was God? YES! even an apostle of your church admits it.. Young was therefore a false prophet in that he taught in the name of OTHER gods. But your church still claims that he was a prophet and even quotes his teachings.. There is no distortion of mormonism being done by non mormons, the history and doctrines held today by mormonism is a distortion of mormonism.. IHS jim

[Apologette]

That is what I thought.. You complain and stomp around saying "You distort that the LDS church teaches". But when it comes down to it you can't point to one doctrine we condemn as being distorted by us.. Did Brigham Young teach that Adam was God? YES! even an apostle of your church admits it.. Young was therefore a false prophet in that he taught in the name of OTHER gods. But your church still claims that he was a prophet and even quotes his teachings.. There is no distortion of mormonism being done by non mormons, the history and doctrines held today by mormonism is a distortion of mormonism.. IHS jim Very valid point Jim!

[James Banta]

[nrajeffreturns;145450]He also knows that it wasn't HIM who created you and all other baby humans as evil beings.

If God is good, then He didn't create any evil beings. So your Calvinism is wrong and unbiblical right there.


God didn't create man to be evil, I agree, all Christians agree with that. Man has become evil on his own by tuning away from God and bowing to the authority of Satan. The heart of men (Our nature) has been corrupted because of that. We are all living in bodies of death because of that. We all sin, not to become sinners but because sinning is what id natural for a race like man to do because his first thoughts are for evil. I still hold up the FACT that babies (two and three year olds) will lie to try to stay out of trouble.. If they weren't corrupt the truth would be all they could tell. And this FACT agrees with God's word that ALL have sinned and fallen short of God's glory..


So you're saying that you were not being obedient when you turned against LDS doctrines?

Obediently keeping God's commandments? I have never been obedient in relations to the whole requirements of God. I was and am true to the promptings of the Holy Spirit in abandoning error and submitting to Jesus by His Grace though faith that He gave to me.. Even that faith was a gift of God.



Billy says that there is a way other than Jesus that leads to eternal life.


Nonsense!


That doesn't prove that your belief--that God created all human babies evil--is correct.

God created our spirits within us.. The heart, our being was already there and it was evil due to the parentage of our human parents. It's like clean pure water and water taken from a pool of sewage water that hasn't been mixed together.. The whole mixture is polluted not just the sewage water.. It must all be cleansed.. Yes, our God created spirits are created clean, our physical bodies are corrupt. When they are united making us a living being the whole is corrupt. ALL HAVE SINNED! I chose to believe God; you have chosen to believe that He is a liar.. I pray you repent from that position.


If that is true, then there's a whole lotta anti-LDS folks who have sinned.

I don't know any anti-LDS folks, at least in the Church. All of us when exposed to the doctrines of mormonism become anti-LDS doctrine.. No matter all of us anti LDS Doctrine Christian or Christians that don't know or understand mormon doctrine are sinners by our very nature. We have by faith in Jesus claimed the promise of God given in His word that all of us that believe in Him will not perish but have everlasting live.. And when does the Holy Spirit tell us that we have that gift? When we believe in Jesus (1John 5:13). Tell me how many LDS are sinners? I'll bet it's a lot less than the number of Christian that are.. IHS jim

[nrajeffreturns]

God didn't create man to be evil, I agree, all Christians agree with that.
Do all Christians agree that the instant God created YOU, He made you evil? Let's take a close look, using logic, at your Calvinistic idea:

---You believe that God created Adam and Eve as GOOD people, people who were good by nature and NOT EVIL.

---You believe that Adam and Eve REMAINED good, and kept that nature, until they disobeyed God.

---You believe that it was not until they disobeyed God that they became evil.

---But you don't allow any of their descendants to have that same chance, since you believe that their descendants, starting with Cain & Abel, were evil by nature the instant they were created, even though they had done nothing wrong to earn that nature.

---So you believe that the only humans to be evil by nature because of something they did, were Adam and Eve. All the rest of the human race is evil by nature because of something their ANCESTORS did.

Does that make sense?

or "Nonsense!" ??


God created our spirits within us.
And He, being omnipotent, had the ability to create our spirits as GOOD ones, just like He did with Adam and Eve's spirits.
Why would God allow THEM to be created with a GOOD nature, and allow that good nature to remain until they chose to sin--but FORCE the rest of us to have an EVIL nature even BEFORE we had done anything wrong?

Does that make any sense?


ALL HAVE SINNED!
Even babies who die at the age of 3 days? Even Baby Jesus, before His first birthday?
IMO, you are wrong because you inferred an extreme, literalist meaning to the phrase "All have sinned."

I pray you repent from that position.


I don't know any anti-LDS folks
So you don't know anyone who is against Joseph Smith, who was the first LDS? It's good to know that you don't have anything against him personally. Some of your rhetoric against him personally might lead some readers to think that you are against him personally. Calling a person a liar, a murderer, etc. seems pretty personal. In fact, on Carm it would be called a personal attack I think. So it's good to know that you are not against any LDS person, including the first LDS.


Tell me how many LDS are sinners? I'll bet it's a lot less than the number of Christian that are.. IHS jim
Numerically, there are fewer LDS than there are worldwide Christians, so yeah, there aren't as many LDS sinners as there are total Christian sinners. But as a percentage, it would be the same: 100% of LDS who have reached a state of maturity to be accountable and who have then knowingly disobeyed a commandment, have sinned, just like with Christendom in general.

And, the number of LDS babies who died in infancy who had sinned before they died, is the same as the number of total babies worldwide who sinned before they died in infancy:


ZERO.

I hope you repent of the sin of branding them sinners.

[Billyray]

---You believe that Adam and Eve REMAINED good, and kept that nature, until they disobeyed God.
the only humans to be evil by nature because of something they did, were Adam and Eve. All the rest of the human race is evil by nature because of something their ANCESTORS did.

Does that make sense?

We are all sinners at heart Jeff but the part that you left out is that Christ atoned for our sins and every single person who comes to Him by faith will be saved.

The reason that Christians believe that we are all sinners is because the Bible teaches that we are all sinners. Here are a couple of verses that touch on this subject.


Psalm 51:Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me.

Proverbs 22:15 Foolishness is bound up in the heart of a child; The rod of discipline will remove it far from him.

Ephesians 2:
1. And you were dead in your tresp***es and sins,
2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.
3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest

Romans 3
9*What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin;
10*as it is written, “There is none righteous, not even one;

Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned

[Billyray]

Proverbs 22:15 Foolishness is bound up in the heart of a child; The rod of discipline will remove it far from him.

Jeff if you believe that a child doesn't sin why discipline him?

[nrajeffreturns]

We are all sinners at heart Jeff
Who created our hearts? Do you really want to believe that God created your heart evil from the instant He created you? Wouldn't it be more like God's nature, since He is a GOOD God, to create your heart GOOD just like He created Adam and Eve's hearts?




but the part that you left out is that Christ atoned for our sins
"OUR sins" ?? Have you finally accepted the true doctrine that Christ atoned for everyone's sins?



The reason that Christians believe that we are all sinners is because the Bible teaches that we are all sinners.
If you can find a verse that actually states that babies who died at 3 days of age had somehow figured out how to sin, and which lists the sins they committed, I will buy that Bible from you.

[Billyray]

Who created our hearts? Do you really want to believe that God created your heart evil from the instant He created you? Wouldn't it be more like God's nature, since He is a GOOD God, to create your heart GOOD just like He created Adam and Eve's hearts?
Adam and Eve were created perfect. Because of their choice to disobey God they fell and because of that decision we have received a sinful nature that was p***ed down to us. God has provided a way for us by sending his Son to die for us and by placing our faith in Him we can be saved. This is good news--for those who accept his offer. When we are born again God give us a new nature and a new heart.

[Billyray]

"OUR sins" ?? Have you finally accepted the true doctrine that Christ atoned for everyone's sins?
Christ paid for the sins of those who come to Him--"US". Christ did not pay for the sins of those who reject Him--if He did then they would also go to heaven BECAUSE they would be seen as sinless in the eyes of God because their sins would have been paid for--but the Bible doesn't teach this Jeff.

[Billyray]

If you can find a verse that actually states that babies who died at 3 days of age had somehow figured out how to sin, and which lists the sins they committed, I will buy that Bible from you.
Jeff I have already given you multiple verses that plainly state that we ALL sin. You have just chosen to disbelieve what the Bible teaches based on your personal feelings rather than on what the word of God says.


Psalm 51:Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me.

Proverbs 22:15 Foolishness is bound up in the heart of a child; The rod of discipline will remove it far from him.

Ephesians 2:
1. And you were dead in your tresp***es and sins,
2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.
3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest

Romans 3
9*What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin;
10*as it is written, “There is none righteous, not even one;

Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned

[Billyray]

Proverbs 22:15 Foolishness is bound up in the heart of a child; The rod of discipline will remove it far from him.

Jeff if you believe that a child doesn't sin why discipline him?

Bump for Jeff.

[nrajeffreturns]

if you believe that a child doesn't sin why discipline him?


If you actually advocate disciplining (PUNISHING) a 3-day-old baby for the "sin" of crying due to hunger, pain, or fear, then someone needs to report you to Child Protective Services.

It is WRONG, and unCHRISTIAN, to punish a baby. One reason is that the baby didn't do anything wrong. Another reason is that even IF a baby could actually manage to do something that is against God's will, the baby didn't do it on purpose, and didn't even KNOW he/she was doing something wrong.

Therefore, it is atrocious parenting, bordering on child abuse, to punish babies.

The REAL God of the New Testament would never advocate child abuse. Read your Bible again, and try to find verses where Jesus advocated child abuse. You won't find such a verse, IMO.

[Apologette]

If you actually advocate disciplining (PUNISHING) a 3-day-old baby for the "sin" of crying due to hunger, pain, or fear, then someone needs to report you to Child Protective Services.

Sin is willful transgression of the Law. For instance, willfully following a pedophile would be sinful.

It is WRONG, and unCHRISTIAN, to punish a baby. One reason is that the baby didn't do anything wrong. Another reason is that even IF a baby could actually manage to do something that is against God's will, the baby didn't do it on purpose, and didn't even KNOW he/she was doing something wrong.

Is it also wrong to had over a 14 year old female child to a pedophile?

Therefore, it is atrocious parenting, bordering on child abuse, to punish babies.

It's a criminal act to facilitate sexual abuse of children.

The REAL God of the New Testament would never advocate child abuse. Read your Bible again, and try to find verses where Jesus advocated child abuse. You won't find such a verse, IMO.

Yes , and the real God of the New Testament would never, ever ask anybody to believe a pedophile like Joseph Smith - someone who claimed aN ANGEL of God was going to slay him if he didn't hop in the sack with numerous teenagers and married women. You'll know they by their fruit - look at his disgusting fruit.

[James Banta]

[nrajeffreturns;145586]Do all Christians agree that the instant God created YOU, He made you evil? Let's take a close look, using logic, at your Calvinistic idea:

---You believe that God created Adam and Eve as GOOD people, people who were good by nature and NOT EVIL.

---You believe that Adam and Eve REMAINED good, and kept that nature, until they disobeyed God.

---You believe that it was not until they disobeyed God that they became evil.

When did you see me say that God made anything evil. As for the rest of your post you are correct. We all became evil because of that first sin.

Romans 5:12
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death p***ed upon all men, for that all have sinned

But I guess you wish to set the scripture aside because you don't like the idea by Adam's sin that sin came into the world and because ALL have sinned death p***es upon All men.. In case you don't know even infants are subject to death because ALL have sinned.. Unlike you I don't make up my own personal doctrine on this subject. I get that from the God breathed scripture. Where you get your doctrines on who is a sinner and why we sin I have no idea it surely isn't from the Bible.


--But you don't allow any of their descendants to have that same chance, since you believe that their descendants, starting with Cain & Abel, were evil by nature the instant they were created, even though they had done nothing wrong to earn that nature.

Again I turn to the authority of God's word, instead of being like you and inventing my own gospel. God has told us that all have sinned and that sin entered the world by one man and death by sin, for all have sinned.. I see no exceptions for anyone. Not Cain, not Able, not you, or me, not even a new born baby. Must be that being a sinner has more to do with having a human nature more than it does the process of doing evil.. Sin is what we are more than what we do.


---So you believe that the only humans to be evil by nature because of something they did, were Adam and Eve. All the rest of the human race is evil by nature because of something their ANCESTORS did.

isn't that what that p***age taught to us? That by one man sin entered the world and death by sin and since we all die we are all sinners? You keep complaining about the inspired word of God from the vantage point of your own logic. For a man that says he believes in the teachings of God given in the Bible you really complain a lot about this teaching.. All means all, it doesn't mean some, it doesn't even mean most, it means ALL..


Does that make sense?

or "Nonsense!" ??


Because you deny God's word with your "logic" it doesn't make sense, it is complete and utter nonsense.. IHS jim
And He, being omnipotent, had the ability to create our spirits as GOOD ones, just like He did with Adam and Eve's spirits.
Why would God allow THEM to be created with a GOOD nature, and allow that good nature to remain until they chose to sin--but FORCE the rest of us to have an EVIL nature even BEFORE we had done anything wrong?

Does that make any sense?


Even babies who die at the age of 3 days? Even Baby Jesus, before His first birthday?
IMO, you are wrong because you inferred an extreme, literalist meaning to the phrase "All have sinned."

I pray you repent from that position.


So you don't know anyone who is against Joseph Smith, who was the first LDS? It's good to know that you don't have anything against him personally. Some of your rhetoric against him personally might lead some readers to think that you are against him personally. Calling a person a liar, a murderer, etc. seems pretty personal. In fact, on Carm it would be called a personal attack I think. So it's good to know that you are not against any LDS person, including the first LDS.


Numerically, there are fewer LDS than there are worldwide Christians, so yeah, there aren't as many LDS sinners as there are total Christian sinners. But as a percentage, it would be the same: 100% of LDS who have reached a state of maturity to be accountable and who have then knowingly disobeyed a commandment, have sinned, just like with Christendom in general.

And, the number of LDS babies who died in infancy who had sinned before they died, is the same as the number of total babies worldwide who sinned before they died in infancy:


ZERO.

I hope you repent of the sin of branding them sinners.[/QUOTE]

[Billyray]

If you actually advocate disciplining (PUNISHING) a 3-day-old baby for the "sin" of crying due to hunger, pain, or fear, then someone needs to report you to Child Protective Services.

I noticed that you didn't answer my question Jeff.

Proverbs 22:15 Foolishness is bound up in the heart of a child; The rod of discipline will remove it far from him.

Jeff if you believe that a child doesn't sin why discipline him?

[nrajeffreturns]

When did you see me say that God made anything evil.

So you agree that God made you good, just like He made Adam and Eve good? Better watch it--that's an LDS belief,,not orthodox Calvinism. Calvinists, Inc. may revoke your membership! :)

[nrajeffreturns]

I noticed that you didn't answer my question Jeff.
Oh, I did answer and REFUTE your false belief that babies need to be punished.

[Billyray]

Oh, I did answer and REFUTE your false belief that babies need to be punished.
No Jeff you didn't answer my question. Here it is again for you.



Proverbs 22:15 Foolishness is bound up in the heart of a child; The rod of discipline will remove it far from him.

Jeff if you believe that a child doesn't sin why discipline him?

[Billyray]

So you agree that God made you good, just like He made Adam and Eve good? Better watch it--that's an LDS belief,,not orthodox Calvinism. Calvinists, Inc. may revoke your membership! :)
. . .
. . .


"Calvinism denies human free will and makes God responsible for evil"

God is not responsible for the evil that is accomplished by the free will actionsof fallen people. Remember, free will is the ability to make choices and unbelievers make choices consistent with their fallen natures. They openly choose to accomplish evil deeds in contradiction to God's Word. They are openly and freely rebelling against God. God did not make them sinful. He did not make them rebellious. therefore, God is not responsible for the evil but they accomplish.
God made Adam who was good. Adam was not bound by its sinful nature and freely chose to rebel against God. Because of his rebellion, he fell. His body was physically affected by sin. Likewise, his children inherited the sinful nature and depravity of mind, soul, art, body, motions, etc. and are under the proclaimed revelation of God concerning their fallen state. Nevertheless, God made Adam good and Adam chose to rebel. We inherited the sinful nature and the unbeliever, the unregenerate can only act in accordance with his own fall in nature. In other words, he cannot choose to freely follow God because that is a good thing to do. Since he is a slave of sin, does not seek for God and does not understand spiritual things, he is not able to freely choose God.

http://www.calvinistcorner.com/answers/freewill.htm
Matthew J. Slick, B.A., M. Div., 1998-2006

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns View Post If you actually advocate disciplining (PUNISHING) a 3-day-old baby for the "sin" of crying due to hunger, pain, or fear, then someone needs to report you to Child Protective Services.


[COLOR="#FF0000"]Yes , and the real God of the New Testament would never, ever ask anybody to believe a pedophile

How are you relating a three day old baby to this?

[nrajeffreturns]

Hmmmm...great point, Dberrie. Why should we believe people who advocate child abuse (punishing 3-day-old babies)??

Following child abusers seems like what cultists would do...so Calvinism seems like a dangerous cult.

[Apologette]

Hmmmm...great point, Dberrie. Why should we believe people who advocate child abuse (punishing 3-day-old babies)??

Following child abusers seems like what cultists would do...so Calvinism seems like a dangerous cult.

Aren't you aware that Calvinists, and all other Christians, believe that babies are received into heaven? What is wrong with you, Jeff. Are you so ig-norant of Christianity? I don't think so, because I've told you this numerous times before. So are you just purposely misrepresenting Christianity? Wouldn't that come under the heading of dishonesty? That's one of the things you promise NOT to be in the "temple," right? And talking about Child Abuse, why don't you condemn the pedophile prophet, Joe Smith. Too bad he was killed - I'd have liked him to have spent the last years of his miserable life languishing in prison for sexual molestation.

[theway]

Aren't you aware that Calvinists, and all other Christians, believe that babies are received into heaven? What is wrong with you, Jeff. Is this some kind of "No true Scotsman Fallacy" where everyone who doesn't believe your view is not a Christan?
In any case, this belief (excuse) of yours causes a problem for you once again.
If you believe that babies are automatically saved then you must believe that even faith is not required for Salvation; plus it forces you to accept another contradiction to your beliefs, that babies are innocent and therefore free from sin.

You just seem full of contradiction today CA.


Are you so ig-norant of Christianity? I don't think so, because I've told you this numerous times before. So are you just purposely misrepresenting Christianity? Wouldn't that come under the heading of dishonesty? .No CA, it appears you are the one who is ig-norant of Christianity. Why do you think they started infant baptism in the first place?

[James Banta]

So you agree that God made you good, just like He made Adam and Eve good? Better watch it--that's an LDS belief,,not orthodox Calvinism. Calvinists, Inc. may revoke your membership! :)

The spirit God formed within me (Zech 12:1) was good. The flesh that came about through the act of procreation is tainted by sin. It was formed in sin (Psalm 51:5). It contaminated my mind and my heart.. By the time I drew my first breath it was the soul characteristic of my being. Is that good? My spirit formed by God, yes. The sin contaminated flesh no.. This means all people must have two births one of the flesh and one of the spirit. A natural , and a spiritual. without both we only have the birth of that which is contaminated and not pure..

Mormonism is not wrong about everything. Just those things that are capable of bringing eternal life.. They are wrong about babies entering the world pure. They are still nothing more than sinners from that first breath.. While God is perfect and all His creation good, man is contaminated by sin from the first the time our first parents disobeyed God in trying to become like Him by their own efforts. Since that day death and sin have ruled our hearts, our minds and our whole world.. Death and sin have stained all that have entered the world since.. Do infants die? Of course. Therefore they too are under the stain of sin. If that were not so never would a baby under age 8 ever die.. Are you sure this is LDS doctrine? If only it were that would put mormonism a step closer to truth..

So did God make everything evil. Hardly, man in his sin did that! IHS jim

[James Banta]

. . .
. . .

YES and because God is perfect the spirit He formed within us was perfect and then was contaminated by sin and death even before a child is even born.. IHS jim

[nrajeffreturns]

Aren't you aware that Calvinists, and all other Christians, believe that babies are received into heaven?
Aren't YOU aware that Billy believes that ALL humans, including babies, have sinned, with no exceptions? Are you saying that Billy isn't a Christian (the No True Scotsman fallacy that TheWay referred to) because he disagrees with you on this and subscribes to hypercalvinism? How can those babies who die in infancy all make it to heaven if they are all sinners? What about the limited atonement theory--shouldn't it conclude that Jesus didn't die for most of those babies ?


What is wrong with you, Jeff.
Don't you mean "What is wrong with Billy?" ?


Are you so ig-norant of Christianity?
Are you claiming that if Billy had studied Christianity, he'd realize that all babies who die in infancy get eternal life?

[Billyray]

Aren't YOU aware that Billy believes that ALL humans, including babies, have sinned, with no exceptions? Are you saying that Billy isn't a Christian (the No True Scotsman fallacy that TheWay referred to) because he disagrees with you on this and subscribes to hypercalvinism? How can those babies who die in infancy all make it to heaven if they are all sinners? What about the limited atonement theory--shouldn't it conclude that Jesus didn't die for most of those babies ?


Don't you mean "What is wrong with Billy?" ?


Are you claiming that if Billy had studied Christianity, he'd realize that all babies who die in infancy get eternal life?
It is true that ALL have sinned including children. But then you changed subject and ***umed this meant that babies who die don't go to heaven. These are separate issues. We have discussed this at length at you know my position on this which is that children who die will go to heaven and I gave David's child as an example of this. So either you have a really bad memory OR you are being dishonest. Which one is it Jeff?


How can those babies who die in infancy all make it to heaven if they are all sinners?

Everyone who makes it to heaven is a sinner (except God of course) and that our justification is based on our faith in Christ. Did you forget that?

[nrajeffreturns]

The spirit God formed within me (Zech 12:1) was good...God is perfect and all His creation good..Mormonism is wrong about babies entering the world pure.

Hello? Anyone see a problem with that last statement when compared to the first 2 statements?


Do infants die? Of course. Therefore they too are under the stain of sin.
Uh, no. Despite what your Calvinism teaches, babies die for a variety of reasons, but one thing they do NOT die from is their own sins. Babies die because other people KILL them. Or because of germs in the world, or accidents.


So did God make everything evil. Hardly, man in his sin did that! IHS jim
So man is more powerful than God?

[Apologette]

Aren't YOU aware that Billy believes that ALL humans, including babies, have sinned, with no exceptions? Are you saying that Billy isn't a Christian (the No True Scotsman fallacy that TheWay referred to) because he disagrees with you on this and subscribes to hypercalvinism? How can those babies who die in infancy all make it to heaven if they are all sinners? What about the limited atonement theory--shouldn't it conclude that Jesus didn't die for most of those babies ?


Don't you mean "What is wrong with Billy?" ?


Are you claiming that if Billy had studied Christianity, he'd realize that all babies who die in infancy get eternal life?

I've talked to you plenty of times about this, so you know the answer. You will find the answer by studying the Old Testament sacrifices. Do some study on your own.

[Billyray]

Is this some kind of "No true Scotsman Fallacy" where everyone who doesn't believe your view is not a Christan?

Who disagreed with what she said?

[Billyray]

Uh, no. Despite what your Calvinism teaches, babies die for a variety of reasons, but one thing they do NOT die from is their own sins. Babies die because other people KILL them. Or because of germs in the world, or accidents.

Jeff are you going to admit that you lied about what I believe?

It is true that ALL have sinned including children. But then you changed subject and ***umed this meant that babies who die don't go to heaven. These are separate issues. We have discussed this at length at you know my position on this which is that children who die will go to heaven and I gave David's child as an example of this. So either you have a really bad memory OR you are being dishonest. Which one is it Jeff?

[nrajeffreturns]

Jeff are you going to admit that you lied about what I believe?

Why would I want to admit to something I think I haven't done? Punishing people for sins they didn't commit: Sounds pretty Calvinistic to me! :)

[Billyray]

Why would I want to admit to something I think I haven't done? Punishing people for sins they didn't commit: Sounds pretty Calvinistic to me! :)
Jeff what point is there for me to discuss these issue with you when you simply flat out lie about what I believe?

[nrajeffreturns]

Jeff are you going to admit that you lied about what I believe?
Billy, are you going to admit that I never said ANYTHING about punishing babies IN HELL, and that the "IN HELL" part was ADDED BY YOU TO CREATE A STRAW MAN?


a) Yes, you will admit it

b) No, you refuse to admit it

[Billyray]

Billy, are you going to admit that I never said ANYTHING about punishing babies IN HELL, and that the "IN HELL" part was ADDED BY YOU TO CREATE A STRAW MAN?

Let's look at what you said. I included Apologette's post that you quoted.

Aren't you aware that Calvinists, and all other Christians, believe that babies are received into heaven?


. . . Are you saying that Billy isn't a Christian (the No True Scotsman fallacy that TheWay referred to) because he disagrees with you on this and subscribes to hypercalvinism? How can those babies who die in infancy all make it to heaven if they are all sinners? What about the limited atonement theory--shouldn't it conclude that Jesus didn't die for most of those babies ? . . .Are you claiming that if Billy had studied Christianity, he'd realize that all babies who die in infancy get eternal life?

It is true that ALL have sinned including children. But then you changed subject and ***umed this meant that babies who die don't go to heaven. These are separate issues. We have discussed this at length at you know my position on this which is that children who die will go to heaven and I gave David's child as an example of this. So either you have a really bad memory OR you are being dishonest. Which one is it Jeff?

Everyone who makes it to heaven is a sinner (except God of course) and that our justification is based on our faith in Christ. Did you forget that?
Are you ever going to admit that you lied about my position Jeff?

[nrajeffreturns]

So let's try to nail down what your belief IS, Billy:

What % of babies who die in infancy will get eternal life?

Billy's answer: ____ %

[Billyray]

So let's try to nail down what your belief IS, Billy:

What % of babies who die in infancy will get eternal life?

Billy's answer: ____ %
Are you ever going to admit that you lied about my position Jeff?

[Billyray]

So let's try to nail down what your belief IS, Billy:

What % of babies who die in infancy will get eternal life?

Billy's answer: ____ %





a) you and/or Billy don't believe that infants who die in infancy have committed any sins;
b) you and/or Billy DO believe that infants who die in infancy have committed sins, but you believe those infants will still be saved and go to heaven, even though they never got a chance to learn about and accept Jesus before they died.


Is either "a" or "b" the reason why you took exception to dberrie's post? If so, which was the correct reason?

I believe ALL have sinned thus infants have sinned. The Bible doesn't have a lot to say about the fate of infants who die with respect to salvation.

If you want my personal opinion which is not based on the Bible I will be happy to give that to you. My personal opinion is that infants sin but that they are not accountable for their sins and will be saved. But this is not something that I can support from the Bible.
As I said in a prior post you have either completely lost your memory of our conversation on this exact subject OR you are simply lying about my position. If you are honest with me and tell me that you are losing my memory I will at least understand. But I highly suspect that this is not the case and that you are simply flat out lying. The fact that you have resorted to this type of behavior shows me that you can't defend your faith and you will use any tactic that you--can even something as deceptive as this. It is pretty obvious that here we are on the Mormon board and you and DB do not want to talk about Mormonism--rather you want to talk mostly about Calvinism, and that is fine by me because I know that I can support it from the Bible. But your false religion runs counter in many ways to what is plainly taught in God's word so i don't blame you for not wanting to talk about it because you can't defend it.

[nrajeffreturns]

Are you ever going to admit that you lied about my position Jeff?

Sure: As soon as I actually do lie about it, I will be happy to admit it. :)

Now, FOCUS on answering the question that IS about your beliefs:

What % of babies who die in infancy will get eternal life?

Billy's answer: ____ %

(Your answer doesn't need to be exact, unless it's 0 or 100. In all other cases, you can give an approximate percentage.)

After you actually give an honest, to-the-point answer, we can move on to your question about punishing (you used the word "discipline") little kids such as babies.

[James Banta]

Sure: As soon as I actually do lie about it, I will be happy to admit it. :)

Now, FOCUS on answering the question that IS about your beliefs:

What % of babies who die in infancy will get eternal life?

Billy's answer: ____ %

(Your answer doesn't need to be exact, unless it's 0 or 100. In all other cases, you can give an approximate percentage.)

After you actually give an honest, to-the-point answer, we can move on to your question about punishing (you used the word "discipline") little kids such as babies.

What did Jesus say about how He will deal with newborns, or even young children that die in their youth?

Matthew 19:14
But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come to me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.

Just because we believe in the whole of the Bible and know that all have sinned and have fallen short of the glory of God doesn't mean that we reject the rest of the text.. Yes young children are covered by the redemptive power of the blood of the Lord. This doesn't mean that within them is the human heart that is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked (Jer 17:9). It must be made clean before a Holy God. An action that ONLY cost the life of the Lord of glory.. Just because they share the same nature as the rest of mankind doesn't mean that the Lord can't have mercy toward them.. IHS

[nrajeffreturns]

So while Billy is taking a long time to come up with HIS answer, James has kindly offered one of his own:

What % of babies who die in infancy will get eternal life?

Jim's answer: 100 %

[Billyray]

So while Billy is taking a long time to come up with HIS answer, James has kindly offered one of his own:

What % of babies who die in infancy will get eternal life?

Jim's answer: 100 %
Jeff I have ALREADY given you my position on this multiple times now. Either you are having a difficulty with your memory or you are being deceitful. Why play these games Jeff. What good does it bring to you? It certainly doesn't put a good light on LDS members.




a) you and/or Billy don't believe that infants who die in infancy have committed any sins;
b) you and/or Billy DO believe that infants who die in infancy have committed sins, but you believe those infants will still be saved and go to heaven, even though they never got a chance to learn about and accept Jesus before they died.


Is either "a" or "b" the reason why you took exception to dberrie's post? If so, which was the correct reason?

I believe ALL have sinned thus infants have sinned. The Bible doesn't have a lot to say about the fate of infants who die with respect to salvation.

If you want my personal opinion which is not based on the Bible I will be happy to give that to you. My personal opinion is that infants sin but that they are not accountable for their sins and will be saved. But this is not something that I can support from the Bible.
Jeff

[Billyray]

Why would I want to admit to something I think I haven't done? Punishing people for sins they didn't commit
Do you believe children commit sin?

[nrajeffreturns]

Do you believe children commit sin?

If they live a sufficient amount of time, most of them end up committing sin.

Do you believe that ALL of the babies who were murdered by Kermit Gosnell committed sins before he killed them?


Billy's Answer: YES.

[Billyray]

If they live a sufficient amount of time, most of them end up committing sin.

So a baby is saved because he is perfect just like Jesus and does not need the atonement applied to him? And what about young children who sin who have not accepted Christ are they out of luck?

[Billyray]

If they live a sufficient amount of time, most of them end up committing sin.

Do you believe that ALL of the babies who were murdered by Kermit Gosnell committed sins before he killed them?


Billy's Answer: YES.

The Bible teaches us in more than one place that ALL have sinned. Do you reject this Bible teaching?

[James Banta]

If they live a sufficient amount of time, most of them end up committing sin.

Do you believe that ALL of the babies who were murdered by Kermit Gosnell committed sins before he killed them?


Billy's Answer: YES.

You still have thing upside down.. We never commit sin to become sinners, we sin because we are sinners.. It is the nature of a human being to sin.. We are therefore all sinners before a Holy God whose nature is to be righteous. So whether of not a baby has committed sin they are sinners.. It is their nature.. I have quoted Jer 17:9 to you several times.. It is our heart that evil, the very base of our being.. All people have that nature no matter their age. Therefore ALL have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.. Not most as you wish it was.. It's ALL.. IHS jim

[Billyray]

So let's try to nail down what your belief IS, Billy:

What % of babies who die in infancy will get eternal life?

Billy's answer: ____ %
I have already given you my position on this Jeff which is that all babies who die will go to heaven which is 100%. Christians on this forum have all agreed, yet you have gone on and on and on despite the fact that we are in agreement. I have even pointed you to my post where we discussed this subject at length saying the exact same thing but you act like you have had a bout of amnesia. I am not sure what point you are trying to make. I guess you are running out of ideas.

[nrajeffreturns]

...all babies who die will go to heaven which is 100%. .

Yay! He finally gave a straight-up answer!

So you believe that 100% of those babies committed sins before they died...and you also believe that 100% of those babies will go to heaven.

I will discuss this more later.

[Billyray]

Yay! He finally gave a straight-up answer!


. . .My personal opinion is that infants sin but that they are not accountable for their sins and will be saved. . .
Jeff I told you this back in April--well over two months ago. And you have either forgotten what we have discussed OR you have been purposely been misrepresenting what I believe. I believe it it the later. What purpose do you think you gain by this type of deception on your part?

[Billyray]

So you believe that 100% of those babies committed sins before they died...
Jeff do you believe that children sin?

[nrajeffreturns]

I am back to discuss Billy's belief that

100% of the babies who die committed sins before they died, and 100% of those babies will go to heaven.

First, I still feel that I should challenge the idea that 100% of the babies who die committed sins before they died.

Let's look at all the babies murdered by Dr. Gosnell, for example:

I can't think of one sin they committed, or were even ABLE to commit. So I have to question the truth of Billy's accusation against those babies.

Second, Billy claims that of all those sinner babies who died shortly before or shortly after taking their first breath, 100% of those babies will go to heaven.

While I agree that all those babies will indeed enter God's kingdom, it's a bit strange that Billy believes it, because what he's saying is that 100% of sinners go to heaven, as long as those sinners died in infancy. Does the Bible support the idea that 100% of sinners go to heaven without accepting Jesus, as long as they have a valid excuse for their sins??

I think not. The Athanasian Creed states that EVERYONE who wants to be saved MUST faithfully believe in the TRINITY with all the legalistic verbiage the Creed states about the Trinity, and it states that ANYONE who DOESN'T faithfully believe all that stuff about the Trinity CANNOT BE SAVED.

It has no fine-print disclaimer saying "Except for those who die in infancy--they get to go to heaven without meeting this requirement."

So I wonder how Billy explains the Athanasian Creed's statements as they contradict his own regarding sinners who get to go to heaven.

[James Banta]

I am back to discuss Billy's belief that

100% of the babies who die committed sins before they died, and 100% of those babies will go to heaven.

First, I still feel that I should challenge the idea that 100% of the babies who die committed sins before they died.

Let's look at all the babies murdered by Dr. Gosnell, for example:

I can't think of one sin they committed, or were even ABLE to commit. So I have to question the truth of Billy's accusation against those babies.

Second, Billy claims that of all those sinner babies who died shortly before or shortly after taking their first breath, 100% of those babies will go to heaven.

While I agree that all those babies will indeed enter God's kingdom, it's a bit strange that Billy believes it, because what he's saying is that 100% of sinners go to heaven, as long as those sinners died in infancy. Does the Bible support the idea that 100% of sinners go to heaven without accepting Jesus, as long as they have a valid excuse for their sins??

I think not. The Athanasian Creed states that EVERYONE who wants to be saved MUST faithfully believe in the TRINITY with all the legalistic verbiage the Creed states about the Trinity, and it states that ANYONE who DOESN'T faithfully believe all that stuff about the Trinity CANNOT BE SAVED.

It has no fine-print disclaimer saying "Except for those who die in infancy--they get to go to heaven without meeting this requirement."

So I wonder how Billy explains the Athanasian Creed's statements as they contradict his own regarding sinners who get to go to heaven.

Billy and jim both believe that 100% of all Humans no matter how long they live are sinners.. It doesn't matter what they do it is their nature, their hearts that is desperately wicked.. IHS jim

[Billyray]

While I agree that all those babies will indeed enter God's kingdom, it's a bit strange that Billy believes it, because what he's saying is that 100% of sinners go to heaven, as long as those sinners died in infancy.


. . .My personal opinion is that infants sin but that they are not accountable for their sins and will be saved. . .
I am not sure why you believe this idea is strange since you believe the same thing i.e. that children who die will go to heaven prior to being baptized and prior to accepting Christ. Tell me Jeff do you believe that children under the age of 8 sin?

[Billyray]

Jeff do you believe that children sin?

Bump for Jeff

[nrajeffreturns]

I am not sure why you believe this idea is strange since you believe the same thing i.e. that children who die will go to heaven prior to being baptized and prior to accepting Christ.
I TOLD YOU why your idea is strange, but here it is AGAIN:


"he's saying is that 100% of sinners go to heaven, as long as those sinners died in infancy.
Does the Bible support the idea that 100% of sinners go to heaven without accepting Jesus, as long as they have a valid excuse for their sins??

Did you get it this time? The Bible does not support your weird belief. That's why.

[Billyray]

I TOLD YOU why your idea is strange, but here it is AGAIN:


"he's saying is that 100% of sinners go to heaven, as long as those sinners died in infancy.
Does the Bible support the idea that 100% of sinners go to heaven without accepting Jesus, as long as they have a valid excuse for their sins??

Did you get it this time? The Bible does not support your weird belief. That's why.
I don't just believe that infants who die will be saved but all young children who die. This is exactly what you believe--yet you say that this is weird. Again Jeff we have discussed this exact subject at length and you seem to have totally forgotten what we have discussed OR you are misrepresenting my position. I think it is the latter.

Now are you going to answer my question, do you believe that children sin and if so why do you believe that they will go to heaven because they are sinners and yet are not baptized nor have accepted Christ?

[Billyray]

Oh, I did answer and REFUTE your false belief that babies need to be punished.
No Jeff you didn't answer my question. Here it is again for you.



Proverbs 22:15 Foolishness is bound up in the heart of a child; The rod of discipline will remove it far from him.

Jeff if you believe that a child doesn't sin why discipline him?
Bump for Jeff.

Jeff if you believe that a child doesn't sin why discipline him?

[nrajeffreturns]

I don't just believe that infants who die will be saved but all young children who die.
That's not the weird part. The weird part is where you ALSO believe that every single one of those babies and young children COMMITTED ACTUAL SINS before they died in infancy or at a young age--and they all died without accepting Jesus.

Now, unless you believe that those kids will get a chance to hear and accept the gospel AFTER they die, then you believe that many people who never accepted Jesus will get eternal life.

And that is not a Christian belief--at least not an orthodox one.


Now are you going to answer my question, do you believe that children sin
I already answered that question. Are you getting amnesia, or are you just pretending that you don't remember?

I believe that SOME children sin, but babies who die in infancy OBVIOUSLY DID NOT COMMIT ANY SINS before they died. How COULD they have? They weren't ABLE to sin. In order to sin, you need to know that what you are doing is wrong. If the cashier gives you too much change and you don't realize it, you took money that didn't belong to you, but it's not stealing. Why is it not stealing? Figure that out and you will have made a great breakthrough in understanding what the average LDS kid knows from Primary and Sunday School.


and if so why do you believe that they will go to heaven because they are sinners and yet are not baptized nor have accepted Christ?
Since I am LDS, I have the advantage of having a doctrine that teaches that those who died without a chance to hear and accept the gospel in this life, get that opportunity after they die--a doctrine which makes a lot of sense.

But you rejected that doctrine and embraced Calvinism, so you're not allowed to believe in common-sense doctrines like this one.

[Billyray]

Now, unless you believe that those kids will get a chance to hear and accept the gospel AFTER they die, then you believe that many people who never accepted Jesus will get eternal life.

How is what I believe different than what you believe with respect to children who die?

[Billyray]

That's not the weird part. The weird part is where you ALSO believe that every single one of those babies and young children COMMITTED ACTUAL SINS before they died in infancy or at a young age--and they all died without accepting Jesus.

Now, unless you believe that those kids will get a chance to hear and accept the gospel AFTER they die, then you believe that many people who never accepted Jesus will get eternal life.

And that is not a Christian belief--at least not an orthodox one.


And which Christian on this board has disagreed with me that we all sin and that children who die go to heaven?

[Billyray]

I believe that SOME children sin, but babies who die in infancy OBVIOUSLY DID NOT COMMIT ANY SINS before they died.
So children under 8 who sin, have not been baptized, nor have accepted Christ end up where?

[Billyray]

In order to sin, you need to know that what you are doing is wrong

Where did you come up with this definition Jeff?

Let me ask you a question to see if your own defintion stands up to your own scrutiny. if a young girl gets an abortion and she doesn't know that it is wrong are you saying that this is not a sin?

[nrajeffreturns]

how is what i believe different than what you believe with respect to children who die?

you believe they sinned while still in the womb.

[nrajeffreturns]

Where did you come up with this definition Jeff?

It's a common definition:

2. Theology
a. Deliberate disobedience to the known will of God.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Sin

[RealFakeHair]

you believe they sinned while still in the womb.


I must admit I am not female, but it seems to me that having to get up 20 times a night to go to the bathroom while said child is in the womb............

[nrajeffreturns]

I must admit I am not female, but it seems to me that having to get up 20 times a night to go to the bathroom while said child is in the womb............

Pretty sure that's not a sin.

[James Banta]

Pretty sure that's not a sin.

I am sure that in a glorified body as God created Adam and eve to be this would not have happened.. It is only because sin is in the world that things like a 20 up times in the night are ever required.. IHS jim

[dberrie2000]

Billy and jim both believe that 100% of all Humans no matter how long they live are sinners..

Are newborn babies born sinners?

[Billyray]

Are newborn babies born sinners?

Yes babies are sinners.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post---Are newborn babies born sinners?


Yes babies are sinners.

If they are born sinners--what event made them sinners that they were born as sinners?

[Billyray]

If they are born sinners--what event made them sinners that they were born as sinners?
The Bible doesn't give us the exact sin that they commit only that we are ALL sinners which includes babies.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post--If they are born sinners--what event made them sinners that they were born as sinners?


The Bible doesn't give us the exact sin that they commit only that we are ALL sinners which includes babies.

If one believes any infant is born a sinner--that would indicate sin imputed before or while they were being born. What event renders babies sinners upon being born?

[Billyray]

What event renders babies sinners upon being born?
As I said the Bible doesn't tell us what sins were committed but it clearly tells us that we ALL sin which would include children.

Do you believe the Bible when it teaches us that we ALL sin or do you simply ignore those verses?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post--If they are born sinners--what event made them sinners that they were born as sinners?

Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post---The Bible doesn't give us the exact sin that they commit only that we are ALL sinners which includes babies.


Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post---If one believes any infant is born a sinner--that would indicate sin imputed before or while they were being born. What event renders babies sinners upon being born?

As I said the Bible doesn't tell us what sins were committed

Again--if one is born a sinner--that indicates a pre-existing condition. What condition exists that renders babies being born a sinner?

[disciple]

All humans are born with a sinful nature, inherited from Adam and Eve. Everything and everyone are born after their own kind. Babies aren't sinners when they are born, but they are born with a sinful nature.

[dberrie2000]

Babies aren't sinners when they are born,

I agree with you on that one point.

[disciple]

I agree with you on that one point.

Psalm 51:5 "Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me."
Seems like David knew he was born with a sinful nature, with a heart turned against God.

[dberrie2000]

Psalm 51:5 "Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me."
Seems like David knew he was born with a sinful nature, with a heart turned against God.

The Atonement of Jesus Christ freed all men from the automatic consequences that befell and condemned all men due to the Fall. All are born free now.

[Billyray]

The Atonement of Jesus Christ freed all men from the automatic consequences that befell and condemned all men due to the Fall. All are born free now.

Psalm 51:5 "Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me."

Can you tell me what this verse says?

[nrajeffreturns]

Psalm 51:5 "Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me."

Can you tell me what this verse says?

Acc. to some Bible scholars it says that David was exaggerating poetically because he was despondent over his sins. He says that his mom was a sinner even while she was conceiving him. There is not necessarily any reference to the Calvinistic "sin nature" that some people believe was programmed into our DNA while we were fetuses.

[Billyray]

He says that his mom was a sinner even while she was conceiving him.
Psalm 51:5 "Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me."

So you believe that this verse is speaking about his mother's sin and not his?

[Billyray]

There is not necessarily any reference to the Calvinistic "sin nature" that some people believe was programmed into our DNA while we were fetuses.
Do you believe that some are sinners and some are not?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post---The Atonement of Jesus Christ freed all men from the automatic consequences that befell and condemned all men due to the Fall. All are born free now.


Psalm 51:5 "Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me."

Can you tell me what this verse says?

Whatever one might believe it means--that is centuries before the Atonement of Jesus Christ--where He, as a free gift--died for all men--that they may be justified of life--freed from the consequences brought upon all men due to the Fall. It's an event referred to as the Redemption, Billyray. We are now born free. Give glory to God!


Romans 5:18---King James Version (KJV)

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

[Billyray]

Whatever one might believe it means

But I am asking you what this verse means.

Psalm 51:5 "Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me."

Can you tell me what this verse says?

[dberrie2000]

But I am asking you what this verse means.

Psalm 51:5 "Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me."

Can you tell me what this verse says?

No. But I can tell you what this verse means:

Romans 5:18---King James Version (KJV)

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.


That means all men have been justified of life through the Atonement of Jesus Christ's shedding His Blood for the sins of the whole world. All men are now born free.

[Billyray]

No.
The reason you can't tell me what this verse means is because you reject the Biblical teaching that we are ALL sinners--including infants.

[alanmolstad]

OK--Billyray questions the fact that the faith alone use the Bible but little on their forums. I told him I would do a tally and post the results.

In the ---Faith verses works for salvation--thread, the one in which Billyray made this accusation--is the one I chose for the tally. The results are as follows:

For those who are non LDS--there were approx 75 posts. 63 of those posts contained no Biblical quotes. That is a 8.5% percentage.

For me alone--I posted approx 13 times in that thread--and 13 times I included Biblical p***ages. That's a 100% percentage.

Billyray--who was right? The thread is there for all to verify the results.

Faith alone--where is your Bible?

Comments?
This is a totally meaningless comparison.

You simply cant compare one person's posts to a collection of posts by other people, who made comments of a variety of subjects over an unknown amount of time.


I mean for example:
I could join a topic here and post 10 posts right after the other, and while doing so I totally ignore the flow of the conversation and just simply post the same single bible verse time after time, after time.

yes, it might appear that I had a 100% rate at posting Bible verses within my comments, but in real life I added ZERO to the conversation, and the fact that I knew one Bible verse that I just keep posting does not somehow mean "Im correct", or "I have more support in the Bible."

It just means I know how to copy/paste one bible verse....(so in other words, "big deal, so what?")