PDA

View Full Version : The confusing theology of the faith alone



dberrie2000
05-25-2013, 05:04 AM
Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post----It states that we are saved by grace through faith--not that is where obedience comes from. And we are not saved by faith either. We are saved by GRACE through faith.

The question is--is that faith alone, or dead faith that this grace flows through--or faith that is combined with works?

Libby--please identify when this grace flows through faith--before the works--or after works are combined with faith.

If it is before--then we are saved through dead faith:

James 2:20---King James Version (KJV)


20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?


Quote Originally Posted by James Banta View Post
I agree with that p***age. If we say we are saved and then sit down and not allow God to use us to do His good will among men we are not His.


James--you connect works with salvation here. Can we not be His--and still be saved?

Comments?

Billyray
05-25-2013, 09:01 AM
James--you connect works with salvation here. Can we not be His--and still be saved?

Comments?
Ephesians 2
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God
9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

dberrie2000
05-28-2013, 04:15 AM
Ephesians 2
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God
9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

Not by faith, not by works, not by trust, not by obedience, not by belief--but by grace. And that leaves but one question. Who does God's grace unto life go to?


Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)


9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Billyray
05-28-2013, 03:54 PM
Not by faith, not by works, not by trust, not by obedience, not by belief--but by grace.
Ephesians 2
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God
9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

dberrie2000
06-10-2013, 09:38 AM
Ephesians 2
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God
9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

Do you believe this is a reference to dead faith?


James 2:20-26---King James Version (KJV)

20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Billyray
06-10-2013, 04:03 PM
Do you believe this is a reference to dead faith?

If a person does not have faith then he will not be saved.

Ephesians 2
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

MARTUREO
06-10-2013, 06:59 PM
Do you believe this is a reference to dead faith?


James 2:20-26---King James Version (KJV)

20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.



Please, I beg you (although I know it won't happen) READ THE TEXT PROPERLY.

"What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?" (James 2:14)

That faith is death faith as it is not accompanied by works.

dberrie2000
06-28-2013, 04:42 AM
Please, I beg you (although I know it won't happen) READ THE TEXT PROPERLY.

"What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?" (James 2:14)

That faith is death faith as it is not accompanied by works.

So--can dead faith save one?

James Banta
06-28-2013, 08:06 AM
So--can dead faith save one?

We will all say no, but works can't save at all.. Only the grace of God given to those whom hold faith in Jesus can save.. It is NOT a combination of both grace and works..

Romans 11:6
And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

The Holy Spirit through Paul makes it quite clear that it's all about the grace of God and has nothing to do with our efforts.. IHS jim

nrajeffreturns
06-28-2013, 08:29 AM
We will all say no, but works can't save at all..

So do we all agree that you can't be saved by works alone, AND that you can't be saved by faith alone either?

Because that's what the Bible seems to be teaching.

RealFakeHair
06-28-2013, 08:30 AM
So--can dead faith save one?

At what part of faith does it go from being dead to alive?
At what part of faith does it go from being alive to dead?
I will wait for your response.

MacG
06-28-2013, 11:18 AM
So do we all agree that you can't be saved by works alone, AND that you can't be saved by faith alone either?

Because that's what the Bible seems to be teaching.

Heya Jeff,

There are those who misconstrue Paul's words, then and now, who apply them in the manner to which you object. I object to their idea as well for it is the same observation which James made.

According to His parable, the Pharisees (of whom Jesus said had the keys to the Kingdom) claimed faith but left the robbery victim by the side of the road but the socially outcast Samaritan helped him. There will be those who claim faith who cast out demons, heal the sick, and prophesy in His name but are not known by Him. The soil of the hearts of men which is shallow in which the seeds springs to faith but dies out because of no root or those in whom it grows but are choked by weeds of life are are not the good soil where there is much good fruit. You cannot have good fruit without a good tree. In matters of the heart, only God knows whose outward faith, even if it produces works, is saving faith; which the scripture teaches is also a gift and that not of ourselves otherwise we could take some credit for it.

God's grace is a response to our faith placed in Him and Him alone for our salvation. Our born again (after faith) works likewise must be out of grati-tude for such a great salvation while we were yet sinners Christ died for us; like Zacheus out of joy of his lunch with Jesus in his home returned four fold any stolen monies and the ONE leper (out of ten) who returned to thank Jesus for the healing given them because they believed in Him and like Paul who counted his pre-Christ life works of the law as filthy rags.

We are healed by His stripes; the affliction of the deserved judgement is removed from us by Him and Him alone otherwise we detract from His sacrifice in effect saying it is not good enough I must contribute, I must make up for the bad things I did which broke fellowship with Him. May it never be but rather may the motivation of our works be humble grati-tude. These works by the way do have rewards in Heaven, Gems and Crowns and such ranging from the least to the greatest in the Kingdom to come. However having one's name written in the Lamb's book of Life, that is His gift for which He labored on the cross to give to those who believe: Jesus speaking "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life." Jn3:14,15

Grace and Peace,

May His name be praised,

MacG

nrajeffreturns
06-28-2013, 12:05 PM
Heya Jeff,
Hi Mac. How are things?


There are those who misconstrue Paul's words, then and now, who apply them in the manner to which you object. I object to their idea as well for it is the same observation which James made.
According to His parable, the Pharisees (of whom Jesus said had the keys to the Kingdom) claimed faith but left the robbery victim by the side of the road but the socially outcast Samaritan helped him. There will be those who claim faith who cast out demons, heal the sick, and prophesy in His name but are not known by Him. The soil of the hearts of men which is shallow in which the seeds springs to faith but dies out because of no root or those in whom it grows but are choked by weeds of life are are not the good soil where there is much good fruit. You cannot have good fruit without a good tree. In matters of the heart, only God knows whose outward faith, even if it produces works, is saving faith; which the scripture teaches is also a gift and that not of ourselves otherwise we could take some credit for it.
God's grace is a response to our faith placed in Him and Him alone for our salvation. Our born again (after faith) works likewise must be out of grati-tude for such a great salvation while we were yet sinners Christ died for us; like Zacheus out of joy of his lunch with Jesus in his home returned four fold any stolen monies and the ONE leper (out of ten) who returned to thank Jesus for the healing given them because they believed in Him and like Paul who counted his pre-Christ life works of the law as filthy rags. We are healed by His stripes; the affliction of the deserved judgement is removed from us by Him and Him alone otherwise we detract from His sacrifice in effect saying it is not good enough I must contribute, I must make up for the bad things I did which broke fellowship with Him. May it never be but rather may the motivation of our works be humble grati-tude. These works by the way do have rewards in Heaven, Gems and Crowns and such ranging from the least to the greatest in the Kingdom to come. However having one's name written in the Lamb's book of Life, that is His gift for which He labored on the cross to give to those who believe: Jesus speaking "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life." Jn3:14,15
Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I liked what you said, and I agree with it all, especially "may the motivation of our works be humble grati-tude." Except perhaps I might disagree with the idea that saving faith "is also a gift and that not of ourselves otherwise we could take some credit for it."

The verse could be saying that the gift is the GRACE, not the faith. Or, it could also be saying that the gift is salvation.

IMO, we are all born with the ability, once we achieve basic cognition skills, to have saving faith. So why do many people fail to have saving faith? It can't be God's fault, it can't be because He denied those people that ability. So the answer must be that many people CHOOSE to not have saving faith. And that means that those who choose to have saving faith probably SHOULD get some credit for making the right choice. If you're in a pit where a rope is available to climb out, you should get some credit for choosing to use it and climb up to a better place. It doesn't mean that you made the rope or that you were the one who lowered it down into the pit. But there is nothing wrong with someone telling you "You made the right choice--well done."

MacG
06-28-2013, 02:09 PM
Things are well thanks for asking. You? BTW I have always appreciated your general demeanor towards me, thanks.

However like a moth drawn to the flame I cannot seem to escape this board :)


The verse could be saying that the gift is the GRACE, not the faith. Or, it could also be saying that the gift is salvation.

Well it seems that this ol brain has a little crust on it so I re-read that first part of Eph. 2 from 1-10. As I am no grammarian, it may well be that salvation is the subject of the word gift. If you take salvation of the sentence it makes little sense. It still supports that the belief is the cause of the action e.g. looking to the bronze serpent in order to live, don't believe it, so don't look already.

I still have trouble with the idea that one deserves credit for believing for no one come to Me unless the Father draws him and I will have comp***ion on whom I will have comp***ion for Jacob I loved but Easu I hated. Ep 2:1 "And you were dead in your tresp***es and sins, 2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. 3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest."

Yet while I was dead I was invited to follow Him. I can only see it as a sort of paradox for me but what is clear is that I have nothing aside from faith to do with my salvation for faith comes from hearing and hearing by the Word of God. How did I hear it if I was dead? He wants people to follow but he spoke in parables to some intentionally obscuring the Word. If you believe, you repent, you follow, you bear His fruit, if you don't believe, you don't repent, you don't follow, you don't bear His fruit.

nrajeffreturns
06-28-2013, 03:55 PM
I am doing pretty good. I think the verses you cited are indeed the good ones to use to support the "It's 100% God and 0% me" side of the argument. And it does indeed seem to be a paradox when we look at the other verses--the ones that seem to teach that it's more like 99% God and 1% us.

James Banta
06-28-2013, 05:58 PM
I am doing pretty good. I think the verses you cited are indeed the good ones to use to support the "It's 100% God and 0% me" side of the argument. And it does indeed seem to be a paradox when we look at the other verses--the ones that seem to teach that it's more like 99% God and 1% us.

That would mean there is something we need to DO to gain God's grace.. That is NOT the meaning of grace.. If there was anything we could do to save ourselves that Jesus died in vain.. It has been LDS teaching from the time of Joseph Smith that we are saved by grace only after we do all we can do.. The question is who does all they can do? Isn't there one more person we could tell about the Gospel? One more hungry person we could feed? One more lonely elder we could visit? One more dollar we could put to use in easing the burden of the poor? Every day we miss innumerable opportunities to be the hands, and feet of Jesus. Sorry but it is our nature even in our faith to fall short of God's glory.. Jesus either has to become our righteousness or we have NONE.. IHS jim

James Banta
06-28-2013, 06:00 PM
So do we all agree that you can't be saved by works alone, AND that you can't be saved by faith alone either?

Because that's what the Bible seems to be teaching.

What did I just say? Here it is again please read it again... "We will all say no, but works can't save at all..


I have explained already that The Holy Spirit though Paul has taught us that our salvation is either by Grace or by works. It is not both.

Romans 11:6
And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

IHS jim

nrajeffreturns
06-29-2013, 12:09 AM
That would mean there is something we need to DO to gain God's grace..
I take it you didn't click on the link I provided, to the site that shows the differences between Calvinism and Arminianism. So I will just tell you one part of it: It says that Arminianism teaches that Christ died for ALL of us, but only those of us who choose to follow Christ make His atonement efficacious for our salvation.

In simpler terms, that means that Arminian CHRISTIANS believe that there is something we need to DO in order for God's salvific grace to be applied for us.



If there was anything we could do to save ourselves that Jesus died in vain.
There IS something we can do that will result in our being saved: It's called CHOOSING TO FOLLOW CHRIST.
Read your Bible and learn that the Bible teaches that choosing to follow Christ will result in your being saved. That means that there IS something we can do that will result in our being saved.

You may completely hate that fact, but there is nothing you can do about it. It's part of the Bible.

Apologette
06-30-2013, 07:31 AM
I take it you didn't click on the link I provided, to the site that shows the differences between Calvinism and Arminianism. So I will just tell you one part of it: It says that Arminianism teaches that Christ died for ALL of us, but only those of us who choose to follow Christ make His atonement efficacious for our salvation.

In simpler terms, that means that Arminian CHRISTIANS believe that there is something we need to DO in order for God's salvific grace to be applied for us.



There IS something we can do that will result in our being saved: It's called CHOOSING TO FOLLOW CHRIST.
Read your Bible and learn that the Bible teaches that choosing to follow Christ will result in your being saved. That means that there IS something we can do that will result in our being saved.

You may completely hate that fact, but there is nothing you can do about it. It's part of the Bible.

So, you can be a Christian and follow Arminius's interpretation - what's the problem? We're not saved by Calvin, but Jesus. Don't put your trust in the "arm of flesh," because down the road it will disappoint you Jeff.

James Banta
06-30-2013, 01:16 PM
[nrajeffreturns;146346]I take it you didn't click on the link I provided, to the site that shows the differences between Calvinism and Arminianism. So I will just tell you one part of it: It says that Arminianism teaches that Christ died for ALL of us, but only those of us who choose to follow Christ make His atonement efficacious for our salvation.

In simpler terms, that means that Arminian CHRISTIANS believe that there is something we need to DO in order for God's salvific grace to be applied for us.

Arminianism
1. Free-will or human ability. Although human nature was seriously affected by the fall, man has not been left in a state of total spiritual helplessness. God graciously enables every sinner to repent and believe but does not interfere with man’s freedom. Each sinner possesses a free will, and his eternal destiny depends on how he uses it. Man’s freedom consists in his ability to choose good over evil in spiritual matters. The sinner has the power to either cooperate with God’s Spirit and be regenerated or resist God’s grace and perish. The lost sinner needs the Spirit’s ***istance but he does not have to be regenerated by the Spirit before he can believe, for faith is man’s act and precedes the new birth. Faith is the sinner’s gift to God; it is man’s contribution to salvation.

Can you see that even the Arminiam believes that a man is saves by God's grace through faith in Jesus?

2. Conditional election. God’s choice of certain individuals unto salvation before the foundation of the world was based upon His foreseeing that they would respond to His call. He selected only those whom He knew would of themselves freely believe the Gospel. Election therefore was determined by or conditioned upon what man would do. The faith which God foresaw, and upon which He based His choice, was not given to the sinner by God (it was not created by the regenerating power of the Holy Spirit) but resulted solely from man’s will. It was left entirely up to man as to who would believe and therefore as to who would be elected unto salvation. God chose those whom He knew would, of their own free will, choose Christ. Thus the sinner’s choice of Christ—not God’s choice of the sinner—is the ultimate cause of salvation.

This is the same thing I have been saying since \I fist started witness to the LDS online, and yet you call me a Calvinist.

3. Universal redemption or general atonement. Christ’s redeeming work made it possible for everyone to be saved but did not actually secure the salvation of anyone. Although Christ died for all men and for every man, only those who believe on Him are saved. His death enabled God to pardon sinners on the condition that they believe, but it did not actually put away anyone’s sins. Christ’s redemption becomes effective only if man chooses to accept it.

Salvation by the grace of God through faith in Jesus.. Here it is plainly stated "only those who believe on Him are saved" That is the same thing that Calvinist believe!

4. The Holy Spirit can be effectually resisted. The Spirit calls inwardly all those who are called outwardly by the gospel invitation. He does all that He can to bring every sinner to salvation. But inasmuch as man is free, he can successfully resist the Spirit’s call. The Spirit cannot regenerate the sinner until he believes; faith (which is man’s contribution) precedes and makes possible the new birth. Thus, man’s free will limits the Spirit in the application of Christ’s saving work. The Holy Spirit can only draw to Christ those who allow Him to have His way with them. Until the sinner responds, the Spirit cannot give life. God’s grace, therefore, is not invincible; it can be— and often is—resisted and thwarted by man.

No Calvinist believes that everyone will be a saved, but only those that are chosen by God to be so.. Arminius had a different way of saying the same thing Calvinist teach but the meanings are exactly the same thing..

5. Falling from grace. Those who believe and are truly saved can lose their salvation by failing to keep up their faith, etc. All Arminians have not been agreed on this point; some have held that believers are eternally secure in Christ, that once a sinner is regenerated, he can never be lost.

At last some separation? No! It's the same thing again in different words.. Since know one can look at a believer and say "You have true faith, and another only a head knowledge: it is just as believable to say that all that say they believe and then fall awau never really believed deep in their hearts and therefore were never saved in the first place.. This is again the save doctrine that the Calvinist hold in different wording.. Look at this last statement there are some that agree 100% even in the wording of eternal security with the Calvinist..


There IS something we can do that will result in our being saved: It's called CHOOSING TO FOLLOW CHRIST.
Read your Bible and learn that the Bible teaches that choosing to follow Christ will result in your being saved. That means that there IS something we can do that will result in our being saved.

You may completely hate that fact, but there is nothing you can do about it. It's part of the Bible.

Yes we should all follow Christ. Will doing so bring a person salvation? Not even the Arminian believe that.. They like the Calvinist put is all in God's hands through His grace. The Calvinist believes that Faith is God gift to those He calls, the Arminian believe it's man's choice in response to God's call.. That is the same thing worded differently!.. The Bible clearly teaches that everlasting life is a gift of God given to those that believe, PLUS NOTHING (John 3:16).. It doesn't say "whosoever believes and follows me, has everlasting lif0"e, NO, it says "whosoever believes" PERIOD. If we could all follow Jesus has he commanded (Matthew 5:48) then we wouldn't need His sacrifice or forgiveness. We would be saved by our own efforts. We could all live that commandment.. But can we live as that commandment demands? No! I take my authority from that statement both from the Bible (Romans 3:23), and the common knowledge of man as it is stated that "Nobody's Perfect".. We all sin. We all recognize that we have fallen short of the Commandment Jesus gave us to be so.. I recognize my failings before a Holy God. I know that I fall short of His glory, His perfection, His goodness daily. I reach out to Jesus to be not just my Lord, but my Savior. Knowing that He being tempted in every way as I understands my failure and stands in for me taking my place on the cross.

As I have told the LDS, Jesus has forgiven me of all my sin, past, present, and future. I have had many of then ask me how He could forgive sins that are not yet committed. I answer telling them that all my sins all their sins were uncommitted as He hung on the cross (Or in your thoughts sweated in the garden). Still His blood cleanses me from ALL my sins as I held faith in Him.. Look again that is all the Arminians requires is a continued faith in Jesus, that is all the Calvinist base the theology of their salvation on as well.. THERE IN NO DIFFERENCE.. This is the knowledge found in the Bible that the LDS set aside in favor of their works based theology.. IHS jim

Source for the 5 doctrines of Arminianism is http://www.bible-researcher.com/arminianism.html

Pa Pa
08-08-2013, 10:03 PM
James--you connect works with salvation here. Can we not be His--and still be saved?

Comments?
Accept
Ing his is a work, so when they say we do not need to do works.

James Banta
08-12-2013, 10:59 AM
Accept
Ing his is a work, so when they say we do not need to do works.

To answer you Both I will say that James in no way addresses how Grace (Which is the the real way we gain salvation, it's not found in works) come to a person. Grace is said to come to us through FAITH, and not by WORKS. Works and those works mentioned in James not the works insisted to in mormonism. reveal the faith of one Christian to another.. He said Show me your faith without your works and I will show you my faith by my works.. Can salvation be both of grace and of works? Nor according to the Holy Spirit through Paul

Roman11:6
And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

It's one or the other NOT BOTH.. IHS jim

dberrie2000
10-17-2013, 06:02 AM
Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post----It states that we are saved by grace through faith--not that is where obedience comes from. And we are not saved by faith either. We are saved by GRACE through faith.

The question is--is that faith alone, or dead faith that this grace flows through--or faith that is combined with works?

Libby--please identify when this grace flows through faith--before the works--or after works are combined with faith.

If it is before--then we are saved through dead faith:

James 2:20---King James Version (KJV)


20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?


Quote Originally Posted by James Banta View Post---I agree with that p***age. If we say we are saved and then sit down and not allow God to use us to do His good will among men we are not His.


Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View PostJames--you connect works with salvation here. Can we not be His--and still be saved?


Ephesians 2
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God
9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

James 2:20 does not make the claim works saves one--only that faith without works is dead.

Again, the question--can one be saved through dead faith?

dberrie2000
10-17-2013, 06:07 AM
What did I just say? Here it is again please read it again... "We will all say no, but works can't save at all..

But His grace can--and that is what goes to those who obey Him:


Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)

38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

James--can you explain for us what is it about repentance and water baptism you don't consider a work--and what is it about the remission of sins you don't consider God's grace?

Because if Acts2:38 is true--that is God's grace going to those who obey Him:


Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)

9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Billyray
10-17-2013, 11:48 PM
But His grace can--and that is what goes to those who obey Him:

Romans 11:6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.

What role do works play in grace according to this verse DB?

dberrie2000
10-18-2013, 05:25 AM
Originally Posted by James Banta View Post---What did I just say? Here it is again please read it again... "We will all say no, but works can't save at all..


Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post----But His grace can--and that is what goes to those who obey Him:


Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)

38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

James--can you explain for us what is it about repentance and water baptism you don't consider a work--and what is it about the remission of sins you don't consider God's grace?

Because if Acts2:38 is true--that is God's grace going to those who obey Him:


Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)

9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;


Romans 11:6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.

What role do works play in grace....

When referring to obedience to the gospel of Jesus Christ--it is the basis whereby we receive His grace unto life--as the above scriptures show.


according to this verse DB?

Paul usually denoted the Mosaic Law when he used the term "works"--that is now the belief of many scholars. If you believe he was referring to obedience to the gospel of Christ--could you explain this:


Romans 2:5-11----King James Version (KJV)


5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

Billyray
10-18-2013, 02:31 PM
When referring to obedience to the gospel of Jesus Christ--it is the basis whereby we receive His grace unto life--as the above scriptures show.

Romans 11:6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.

What role do works play in grace according to Romans 11:6?

Billyray
10-18-2013, 02:33 PM
Romans 2:5-11----King James Version (KJV)


5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

Romans 2:13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.

Don't forget verse 13. According to verse 13 are those who obey the Law just before God?

nrajeffreturns
10-18-2013, 02:36 PM
The works of the Torah (The Law) play no role in salvation, because it's possible to obey the letter without obeying the spirit of them. Jesus introduced a new set of laws, which have no loopholes. You are actually commanded to love your neighbor, both enemies and friends. If you disobey that commandment, you get no eternal life because you aren't obeying one of the 2 great commandments according to Jesus.

In Jesus' commandments for eternal life, you can't cheat.

Billyray
10-18-2013, 02:36 PM
If you believe he was referring to obedience to the gospel of Christ--could you explain this:


Romans 2:5-11----King James Version (KJV)


5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
Sure. Perfect obedience to the commandments is the standard for justification if we are to rely on our own personal righteousness for salvation. Those who do obey the law perfectly will be justified. Now read on to chapter 3 and see what else Paul tells us about this.

dberrie2000
10-18-2013, 02:36 PM
Romans 11:6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.

What role do works play in grace according to Romans 11:6?

The works of Romans11:6 is the Mosaic Law. Those works do not play any part in His grace unto salvation--or anything salvation--period.

But if you want to explore what the works of the gospel of Jesus Christ play in grace--it is the basis for receiving God's grace--for example:


Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)

38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Billyray
10-18-2013, 02:37 PM
The works of Romans11:6 is the Mosaic Law. Those works do not play any part in His grace unto salvation--or anything salvation--period.

So under the Mosaic Law works do not play any role in grace. Is that correct?

Billyray
10-18-2013, 02:38 PM
Those works do not play any part in His grace unto salvation--or anything salvation--period.
Then how was anyone saved in the OT under the Law?

dberrie2000
10-18-2013, 05:42 PM
Originally Posted by Billyray View Post---Romans 11:6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.

What role do works play in grace according to Romans 11:6?


Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post---The works of Romans11:6 is the Mosaic Law. Those works do not play any part in His grace unto salvation--or anything salvation--period.

But if you want to explore what the works of the gospel of Jesus Christ play in grace--it is the basis for receiving God's grace--for example:


Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)

38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.


Then how was anyone saved in the OT under the Law?

There was no salvation under the Mosaic Law. There was no eternal life for mankind until Christ's Atonement. All had to await that day before they could inherit eternal life. That was the reason for Paradise.

So--what do you say concerning God giving His grace to unto life to those who obey His gospel--and only to those who obey?


1 Peter 4:17---King James Version (KJV)

17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

dberrie2000
10-18-2013, 05:45 PM
So under the Mosaic Law works do not play any role in grace. Is that correct?

What grace under the Mosaic Law? You could not be referring to the grace unto life--as there was none under the Mosaic Law--and if there was--then there was no need for a new covenant.


Hebrews 10:4---King James Version (KJV)

4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

Billyray
10-18-2013, 11:16 PM
The works of Romans11:6 is the Mosaic Law.
Romans 11:6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.

OK so you say that verse 6 us speaking about the Mosaic law, what role do works play in grace according to verse 6?

Billyray
10-18-2013, 11:17 PM
You could not be referring to the grace unto life--as there was none under the Mosaic Law--and if there was--then there was no need for a new covenant.

But you realize that a person could be saved by keeping the Law. Or didn't you know that?

dberrie2000
10-19-2013, 04:45 AM
But you realize that a person could be saved by keeping the Law. Or didn't you know that?

A couple of points here:

1) If you are referring to the Mosaic Law--no one was able to keep it.

2) The Blood of Bulls and goats were not able to remiss sins:


Hebrews 10:4---King James Version (KJV)

4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.


The possibility of the remission of sins did not happen until Christ's Atonement under the NT.

Billyray
10-19-2013, 10:10 AM
A couple of points here:

1) If you are referring to the Mosaic Law--no one was able to keep it.

2) The Blood of Bulls and goats were not able to remiss sins:


Hebrews 10:4---King James Version (KJV)

4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.


The possibility of the remission of sins did not happen until Christ's Atonement under the NT.
So you disagree with the Bible when it says that a person could be saved by keeping the Law (i.e works)?

RealFakeHair
10-19-2013, 11:38 AM
A couple of points here:

1) If you are referring to the Mosaic Law--no one was able to keep it.

2) The Blood of Bulls and goats were not able to remiss sins:


Hebrews 10:4---King James Version (KJV)

4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.


The possibility of the remission of sins did not happen until Christ's Atonement under the NT.

Sorry but that, but you are wrong again......Jesus forgave many a sin before He went to the Cross. Okay next please?

nrajeffreturns
10-19-2013, 01:36 PM
Sorry but that, but you are wrong again......Jesus forgave many a sin before He went to the Cross. Okay next please?
Interesting statement. So people's sins were being remitted before Jesus paid the price for them?

Billyray
10-19-2013, 04:50 PM
Sorry but that, but you are wrong again......Jesus forgave many a sin before He went to the Cross.

Interesting statement. So people's sins were being remitted before Jesus paid the price for them?


Luke 7
44 Then he turned toward the woman and said to Simon, “Do you see this woman? I came into your house. You did not give me any water for my feet, but she wet my feet with her tears and wiped them with her hair.
45 You did not give me a kiss, but this woman, from the time I entered, has not stopped kissing my feet.
46 You did not put oil on my head, but she has poured perfume on my feet.
47 Therefore, I tell you, her many sins have been forgiven—as her great love has shown. But whoever has been forgiven little loves little.”
48 Then Jesus said to her, “Your sins are forgiven.”


Jeff did "Jesus forgave many a sin before He went to the Cross?

dberrie2000
01-04-2014, 12:28 PM
Originally Posted by Billyray View Post---But you realize that a person could be saved by keeping the Law. Or didn't you know that?


Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post

A couple of points here:

1) If you are referring to the Mosaic Law--no one was able to keep it.

2) The Blood of Bulls and goats were not able to remiss sins:


Hebrews 10:4---King James Version (KJV)

4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.


The possibility of the remission of sins did not happen until Christ's Atonement under the NT.


Sorry but that, but you are wrong again......Jesus forgave many a sin before He went to the Cross. Okay next please?

But under the NT--all were commanded to repent and be baptized for the remission of sins--and that was made possible through the Atonement of Jesus Christ--and His blood sacrifice:


Ephesians 1:7---King James Version (KJV)

7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

Hair--the forgiveness of sins comes through the Blood of Christ--period. There was nothing else ever sufficient whereby sins could be forgiven, nor will be--past, present, or future of that great Atonement of Jesus Christ.

Ma'am
01-04-2014, 12:40 PM
We do our good works BECAUSE we are saved not to become saved. They are the by-product of our faith in Jesus Christ and proof that true faith is there for a false faith gives lip service to faith in Jesus, whereas a true faith in Jesus Christ expresses itself in acts of love and kindness towards others. We treat others as Jesus would want us to treat them.

So, there is NOTHING in the least confusing about faith alone, through grace alone. "For by grace you are saved; through faith--and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God--and NOT by works, so no man may boast." We are saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ our Lord.

nrajeffreturns
01-04-2014, 12:49 PM
So, there is NOTHING in the least confusing about faith alone, through grace alone.
The above is nominated for Most Ironic Statement of 2014.


"For by grace you are saved; through faith--and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God--and NOT by works, so no man may boast." We are saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ our Lord.

dberrie2000
01-04-2014, 01:01 PM
We do our good works BECAUSE we are saved not to become saved.

That might not fit the scriptures in all ways:


John 5:28-29----King James Version (KJV)

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation.

Could you explain why Christ testified to the fact all will be judged according to their deeds--and that for life or ****ation?


Matthew 16:27---King James Version (KJV)

27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.


They are the by-product of our faith in Jesus Christ and proof that true faith is there for a false faith gives lip service to faith in Jesus,

That begs the question--is true faith necessary for salvation? Or, are we first saved by false, dead faith--and it becomes true faith following being saved?


James 2:26---King James Version (KJV)

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.



whereas a true faith in Jesus Christ expresses itself in acts of love and kindness towards others. We treat others as Jesus would want us to treat them.

So, there is NOTHING in the least confusing about faith alone,

Except for the fact there is but one mention of "faith alone" in any translation you would use:


James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)

24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.


"For by grace you are saved; through faith--and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God--and NOT by works, so no man may boast." We are saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ our Lord.

Do you believe that is dead faith it refers to?

James 2:26---King James Version (KJV)

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Ma'am
01-04-2014, 04:10 PM
The above is nominated for Most Ironic Statement of 2014.

Where is the irony? Did Paul mean by grace through faith in anyone besides Jesus Christ? Paul wrote what he wrote.

It is obvious that you don't understand the true gospel of Jesus Christ.

dberrie2000
01-04-2014, 04:14 PM
Where is the irony? Did Paul mean by grace through faith in anyone besides Jesus Christ? Paul wrote what he wrote.

It is obvious that you don't understand the true gospel of Jesus Christ.

You mean this one?


Matthew 19:16-18---King James Version (KJV)


16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?

17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,

If that is true--faith alone theology is false. Ma'am--the scriptures have God giving His salvational grace to them that obey Him--and faith alone cannot fit into that theology.

James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)

24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Ma'am
01-04-2014, 04:23 PM
That might not fit the scriptures in all ways:


John 5:28-29----King James Version (KJV)

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation.

Could you explain why Christ testified to the fact all will be judged according to their deeds--and that for life or ****ation?


Matthew 16:27---King James Version (KJV)

27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.



That begs the question--is true faith necessary for salvation? Or, are we first saved by false, dead faith--and it becomes true faith following being saved?


James 2:26---King James Version (KJV)

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.




Except for the fact there is but one mention of "faith alone" in any translation you would use:


James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)

24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.



Do you believe that is dead faith it refers to?

James 2:26---King James Version (KJV)

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.


True faith always results in true good works, done out of gra***ude for the salvation we receive from Christ Jesus our Lord.

And I believe you are wrong about the mention of "faith alone" in any translation we could use. Doesn't Joseph Smith, in his translation, say that we are saved by grace through faith alone, in Eph. 2:8? I will need to check. No, it is Romans 3:8--here it is:


Such comments seem to overlook one very important "correction" Joseph Smith made to the Bible in 1833. In his Inspired Version (A.K.A. Joseph Smith Translation) of the Bible, Smith altered Romans 3:28. The King James Version (the official Bible of the LDS Church) reads: "Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law." However, Joseph Smith included one simple word to his rendition of this beloved p***age. In his "translation" Smith added the word alone. Today it reads: "Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith alone without the deeds of the law."

I believe it is Joseph Smith who is or rather was, the confused one. He couldn't seem to get his beliefs straight, the way he added and subtracted from Scripture in his own rendition of the Bible.

from http://www.mrm.org/faith-alone-in-jst


But I see nothing confusing in the grace through faith alone salvation. Jesus did all that is necessary to save us; we can do nothing to help save ourselves. If we could, then Jesus would not have cried triumphantly from the cross, "It is finished!" If there still remained stuff we have to to help save ourselves, He would have shouted instead, "To be continued!"

By the way, was Paul wrong in what he wrote in Eph. 2:8? He said we are saved by grace through faith and not by works, so no one can boast. Therefore, what is there left to be saved by?

Ma'am
01-04-2014, 04:36 PM
You mean this one?


Matthew 19:16-18---King James Version (KJV)


16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?

17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,

If that is true--faith alone theology is false. Ma'am--the scriptures have God giving His salvational grace to them that obey Him--and faith alone cannot fit into that theology.

James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)

24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Like most Mormons, you are talented at picking and choosing which verses to use to supposedly support your beliefs, while ignoring those that do not. Was Paul wrong when he wrote, "For by grace you are saved; through faith--and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God--and not by works, so no man may boast"?

Was Paul wrong when he wrote in Romans 4:4-5, "Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness."

Was he wrong when he also wrote, in Romans 3:24--"...being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus..."

See? Justification--being declared righteous and not guilty by God on account of our faith in Christ Jesus--is a gift. Was Paul wrong?

Was he wrong when he wrote, "For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is life eternal in Christ Jesus our Lord." (Rom. 6:23).

Paul writes that salvation and justification are FREE from God in Christ Jesus our Lord. If we have to do good works before God will give us this justification and salvation, how, then, can they be FREE?

James is talking about a living faith. I think he said to be "doers of the word and not hearers only." Our faith we declare in Christ Jesus should be backed up by deeds. But until we DO have faith in Jesus Christ, we can do nothing pleasing to God. How can we, when the unsaved are dead in their tresp***es and sins and in the uncircumcision of their hearts?

dberrie2000
01-04-2014, 04:42 PM
Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post---That might not fit the scriptures in all ways:


John 5:28-29----King James Version (KJV)

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation.

Could you explain why Christ testified to the fact all will be judged according to their deeds--and that for life or ****ation?


Matthew 16:27---King James Version (KJV)

27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.



That begs the question--is true faith necessary for salvation? Or, are we first saved by false, dead faith--and it becomes true faith following being saved?


James 2:26---King James Version (KJV)

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Except for the fact there is but one mention of "faith alone" in any translation you would use:


James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)

24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.



Do you believe that is dead faith it refers to?

James 2:26---King James Version (KJV)

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.


True faith always results in true good works,

Again--is it true faith before or after the works?

James 2:26---King James Version (KJV)

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.


And I believe you are wrong about the mention of "faith alone" in any translation we could use. Doesn't Joseph Smith, in his translation, say that we are saved by grace through faith alone, in Eph. 2:8? I will need to check. No, it is Romans 3:8--here it is:

I stated in any translation you would use--not could use. Ma'am--you don't use the JST.

The JST was a differentiation between the Mosaic Law and the Gospel of grace--not a theology, as the faith alone has made it. Again--this is what is stated about the theology:

James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)

24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.


But I see nothing confusing in the grace through faith alone salvation.

I do. What is it about the fact "faith alone" is not found in any translation you would use do you not believe?

James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)
[/B]
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.



Jesus did all that is necessary to save us; we can do nothing to help save ourselves.

The Biblical record is clear--Jesus alone in the Atonement--and God gives His salvational grace to those who obey Him:


Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)

9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;



If we could, then Jesus would not have cried triumphantly from the cross, "It is finished!" If there still remained stuff we have to to help save ourselves, He would have shouted instead, "To be continued!"

God's part is finished--do you believe Peter told the truth?


Acts2:38--KJV
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.


Christ?


Mark 16:16---King James Version (KJV)


16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be ****ed.


By the way, was Paul wrong in what he wrote in Eph. 2:8? He said we are saved by grace through faith and not by works, so no one can boast. Therefore, what is there left to be saved by?

That we are saved by grace--and not faith nor works--and that grace p***es through faith--is that dead faith Paul referred to?

James 2:26---King James Version (KJV)

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.


God gives His salvational grace to them that obey Him:


Acts 5:32---King James Version (KJV)

32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

Christian
01-04-2014, 05:42 PM
James--you connect works with salvation here. Can we not be His--and still be saved?

Comments?

My father-in-law (to the best of my knowledge) confessed Jesus Christ as HIS lord for the first time ever, on his death bed. He had faith, but no works. Are you claiming he 'mustagone' to Hell?

I don't think so.

dberrie2000
01-04-2014, 06:13 PM
My father-in-law (to the best of my knowledge) confessed Jesus Christ as HIS lord for the first time ever, on his death bed. He had faith, but no works. Are you claiming he 'mustagone' to Hell?

I don't think so.

I don't know where your father in law went--but I know what the scriptures state--and that is, those who obey Christ receive of His salvational grace:


Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)

9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Apologette
01-05-2014, 08:44 AM
I don't know where your father in law went--but I know what the scriptures state--and that is, those who obey Christ receive of His salvational grace:


Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)

9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

So, do you obey your "real god" Satan?

dberrie2000
01-05-2014, 09:37 AM
Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post-----I don't know where your father in law went--but I know what the scriptures state--and that is, those who obey Christ receive of His salvational grace:

Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)

9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;


So, do you obey your "real god" Satan?

The scriptures have God giving His salvational grace to them that obey Him--regardless of what you believe I do.

Catherine--that renders faith alone false--at once. Why don't the faith alone believe the Biblical NT doctrines? Why don't you use the Bible?


2 Timothy 3:15-17---King James Version (KJV)


15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

Christian
01-05-2014, 01:06 PM
I don't know where your father in law went--but I know what the scriptures state--and that is, those who obey Christ receive of His salvational grace:


Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)

9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

In other words, you don't know where those who come to faith on their deathbed go.

Neither can you tell us what 'obeying Him' involves.

According to my Bible:
Rom 4:4-8
4 Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. 5 And to the one who does not work but trusts him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness, 6 just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works:
7 "Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
and whose sins are covered;
8 blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin."
ESV

My sins would not be counted against me even if I didn't have works, because I have FAITH IN JESUS CHRIST.

Obedience to Jesus Christ is to have FAITH in Him. IF you have faith, you WILL have works; your works naturally follow what you really believe.

dberrie2000
01-05-2014, 01:19 PM
My sins would not be counted against me even if I didn't have works, because I have FAITH IN JESUS CHRIST.

Interesting. How does your statement compare to the scriptures?


Galatians 5:19-21----King James Version (KJV)


19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.




Obedience to Jesus Christ is to have FAITH in Him.

I agree. But you just connected works and faith as integral components. If that is so--then why do the faith alone preach a gospel that has God giving His salvational grace to them without any acts of obedience to Jesus Christ?


IF you have faith, you WILL have works; your works naturally follow what you really believe.[/COLOR]

Christian--in the faith alone theology--acts of obedience to Jesus Christ has nothing to do with salvation.

Christian
01-05-2014, 02:55 PM
berry posted:

Originally Posted by ChristianMy sins would not be counted against me even if I didn't have works, because I have FAITH IN JESUS CHRIST.

Interesting. How does your statement compare to the scriptures?

It agrees with scripture completely.

Rom 4:4-8
4 Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. 5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness, 6 just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:
7 "BLESSED ARE THOSE WHOSE LAWLESS DEEDS HAVE BEEN FORGIVEN,
AND WHOSE SINS HAVE BEEN COVERED.
8 "BLESSED IS THE MAN WHOSE SIN THE LORD WILL NOT TAKE INTO ACCOUNT."
NASU

That includes EVERY ONE OF US CHRISTIANS.

Evil men can do nice things. The talaban build hospitals and feed the poor in the middle east; they are not Christians, but are muslims. Mormons have their stake warehouses for their own members. But you can do good works all day without Jesus Christ and still go to Hell.

Galatians 5:19-21----King James Version (KJV)


19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

And of course CHRISTIANS (everyone who has saving faith in Jesus Christ) don't do those things. Mormons do their secret handshakes, secret temple things, but we CHRISTIANS don't deal in that junk.


Obedience to Jesus Christ is to have FAITH in Him.

I agree. But you just connected works and faith as integral components. If that is so--then why do the faith alone preach a gospel that has God giving His salvational grace to them without any acts of obedience to Jesus Christ?

The FAITH (and nothing else) in Jesus Christ (Romans 4:4 above, Eph 2:8-9, etc etc) is what saves you. The good works naturally follow. THAT is the 'faith alone saves you" 'theology' that you obviously can't understand.


IF you have faith, you WILL have works; your works naturally follow what you really believe.

Christian--in the faith alone theology--acts of obedience to Jesus Christ has nothing to do with salvation.

You are talking about the understanding I subscribe to. . .the acts of obedience DO have nothing to do with GETTING your salvation; they are EVIDENCE you HAVE BEEN saved; they are the natural OUTCOME from having been saved.

You don't know what you are talking about when you whine against 'the faith alone theology.' You don't know what it IS.

In the BIBLICAL Jesus Christ,
morefish

Pa Pa
01-05-2014, 03:05 PM
Ephesians 2
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God
9 not by works, so that no one can boast.What are you trying to do, dueling scriptures? You only listen or read the ones that agree with you...how many pages are in your Bible?

Christian
01-05-2014, 03:13 PM
What are you trying to do, dueling scriptures? You only listen or read the ones that agree with you...how many pages are in your Bible?

Does YOUR god contradict Himself? Do YOU really believe the God of the Bible is a liar, contradicting Himself? I study EVERY WORD OF THE BIBLE. I don't do as the mormons often do, pick out half-sentences, phrases etc and try to force them to sound like they agree with a pre-formed doctrine.

Sorry if you would rather do that.

in the Name of the BIBLICAL Jesus Christ,
morefish

Pa Pa
01-05-2014, 03:45 PM
Does YOUR god contradict Himself? Do YOU really believe the God of the Bible is a liar, contradicting Himself? I study EVERY WORD OF THE BIBLE. I don't do as the mormons often do, pick out half-sentences, phrases etc and try to force them to sound like they agree with a pre-formed doctrine.

Sorry if you would rather do that.

in the Name of the BIBLICAL Jesus Christ,
morefish
Since I can only wonder how we got to "my" God lying. My God is Father, Don and Holy Ghost. Perhaps you have heard of them? Again grow up or post your parents permission slip.

dberrie2000
01-05-2014, 04:23 PM
Rom 4:4-8
4 Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. 5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness, 6 just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:

"Works" for Paul, was the Mosaic Law. Romans 4 was about father Abraham--and Paul's point was that Abraham did not live under the law of works--Abraham did not do the works of the Mosaic because Abraham lived under the gospel of Christ--not the Mosaic Law.

If Paul were trying to make the point Abraham's obedience did not count unto salvational grace--he would have been squashed:


Genesis 26:4-5----King James Version (KJV)


4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;

5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.



Paul had just finished giving this testimony:


Romans 2:5-11----King James Version (KJV)

5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

11 For there is no respect of persons with God.


Which certainly collates with his other testimonies:


2 Thessalonians 1:7-9---King James Version (KJV)


7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

James Banta
01-05-2014, 04:30 PM
Since I can only wonder how we got to "my" God lying. My God is Father, Don and Holy Ghost. Perhaps you have heard of them? Again grow up or post your parents permission slip.

So, you do remember the doctrine of God form your days in the Church.. Have you really retained faith in God, or has it been perverted by mormonism? Do you now believe that the Father is a separate being from the Son? Has God always been God or did He becomes a God through obedience to laws and ordinances? Were Jesus and the Holy Spirit creations of the Father or are they co-eternal with the Father? Are you ready to deny Smith and his doctrines of God, will you stay true to what God has revealed of Himself in the Bible? IHS jim

dberrie2000
01-05-2014, 04:34 PM
The FAITH (and nothing else) in Jesus Christ (Romans 4:4 above, Eph 2:8-9, etc etc) is what saves you.

In the LDS church--it's God's grace that saves one. Are you sure it's faith that saves?


The good works naturally follow. THAT is the 'faith alone saves you" 'theology' that you obviously can't understand.

I understand it quite well. First--one is saved without any obedience to Jesus Christ--then--good works follow--which means that dead faith saves one:


James 2:26---King James Version (KJV)

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.


You are talking about the understanding I subscribe to. . .the acts of obedience DO have nothing to do with GETTING your salvation;

I know. In the faith alone theology--that is true. In the Biblical text--God gives His salvational grace to them that obey Him:


Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)

9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;


they are EVIDENCE you HAVE BEEN saved; they are the natural OUTCOME from having been saved.

Tell us, Christian--was that natural outcome of repentance and water baptism here--- before or after one has been saved?


Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)

38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.


Did those who received of the Holy Ghost here--were they saved before the Holy Ghost--or after?


Acts 5:32---King James Version (KJV)

32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

God gives His salvational grace to them that obey Him.

dberrie2000
01-05-2014, 04:38 PM
dberrie----Galatians 5:19-21----King James Version (KJV)


19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: [B]of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.[B]

And of course CHRISTIANS (everyone who has saving faith in Jesus Christ) don't do those things.

Are you saying that no Christian has never done any of those things--or that one is not a Christian if they do those things?

James Banta
01-05-2014, 05:33 PM
"Works" for Paul, was the Mosaic Law. Romans 4 was about father Abraham--and Paul's point was that Abraham did not live under the law of works--Abraham did not do the works of the Mosaic because Abraham lived under the gospel of Christ--not the Mosaic Law.

If Paul were trying to make the point Abraham's obedience did not count unto salvational grace--he would have been squashed:


Genesis 26:4-5----King James Version (KJV)


4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;

5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.


Are you telling me that Abram wasn't given commandments from God? Wasn't he commanded to leave his home and journey into a land that God would show him?

Gen 12:1-4
Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:
And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:
And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.
So Abram departed, as the LORD had spoken unto him...

Was Abram made righteous by that obedience? The Bible tells us that he was made righteous through faith, in believing God..

Genesis 15:6
And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

It is clear that Abram was made righteous by God's grace through Faith and NOT BECAUSE OF HIS WORKS..


Paul had just finished giving this testimony:


Romans 2:5-11----King James Version (KJV)

5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

And in this context of who is righteous by either keeping the Law (the Jew), or becoming a law to themselves (the Greek) The Holy Spirit through Paul makes it clear that none of us keeps the Law.. Not ONE.. So any hope to gain eternal life through obedience is lost in the fact "As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. ( Romans 3:10-11). Lets think about this.. That statement on the level of man's righteousness is near the end of the explanation of what a righteous person is and what an unrighteous person is.. It is clear from the explanation of what an unrighteous person is that all of us are unrighteous.. If God does judge us for what we have done we will all be ****ed..

This is a proper way of leading a person to Jesus.. Make them see that they are sinners and deserving of God's wrath. and then as is seem later in these writings the Holy Spirit through Paul expresses the grace of God available to those that hold faith in Jesus. This is seen in the whole p***age from verse 9 to the end of the context that we are forced to conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. Read all of Romans 2 and three for full understanding.. Not one of us in ourselves can be included as the righteous Paul explains in most of chapter 2.. Then in His explanation in Chapter 3 we see that not one of us are the righteous he was teaching about.. Instead we are all the unrighteous..



Which certainly collates with his other testimonies:


2 Thessalonians 1:7-9---King James Version (KJV)


7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;


And who are they that do not obey the Gospel? They are those that deny the Grace of God that is given to those that believe.. Those that instead of receiving the righteousness of Jesus as their own go about trying to establish their own righteousness.. The Gospel is good news, That news is that if you believe in Jesus will not perish but have everlasting life.. Those that say, "oh yes we believe that, but those that believe must still do more. They must submit to baptism by our authority, they must join our church, they must keep our Laws they must do, do, do and do.. Then at the judgment God will see if they had done enough and are worthy to enter His Kingdom".. That is not GRACE, that is wages earned! IHS jim

James Banta
01-05-2014, 06:06 PM
[dberrie2000;151680]In the LDS church--it's God's grace that saves one. Are you sure it's faith that saves?



I understand it quite well. First--one is saved without any obedience to Jesus Christ--then--good works follow--which means that dead faith saves one:


James 2:26---King James Version (KJV)

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.



I know. In the faith alone theology--that is true. In the Biblical text--God gives His salvational grace to them that obey Him:


Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)

9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;



Tell us, Christian--was that natural outcome of repentance and water baptism here--- before or after one has been saved?


Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)

38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.


Did those who received of the Holy Ghost here--were they saved before the Holy Ghost--or after?


Acts 5:32---King James Version (KJV)

32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

God gives His salvational grace to them that obey Him.[/QUOTE]

Pa Pa
01-05-2014, 06:35 PM
So, you do remember the doctrine of God form your days in the Church.. Have you really retained faith in God, or has it been perverted by mormonism? Do you now believe that the Father is a separate being from the Son? Has God always been God or did He becomes a God through obedience to laws and ordinances? Were Jesus and the Holy Spirit creations of the Father or are they co-eternal with the Father? Are you ready to deny Smith and his doctrines of God, will you stay true to what God has revealed of Himself in the Bible? IHS jimI misspelled Son into Don...just because they are three persons, does not mean they are not one.

James Banta
01-05-2014, 08:58 PM
I misspelled Son into Don...just because they are three persons, does not mean they are not one.

Good solid Trinitarian doctrine. Three separate persons, one God.. That is a long way from the teaching of Joseph Smith as he said there are three persons and three Gods. I could care less whether you believe that smith was a prophet or that today Monson is a prophet. You know that Christianity teaches one God in three persons. Now all you need to believe is Jesus as he taught that God loves the world so much that He gave us His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.. When you are ready again to believe that Jesus is the only way to Father and by the Father Grace through a faith in Jesus that He provides we are save, and NOT OF WORK so that none of us can boast of all we have done to deserve salvation.. IHS jim

BTW I understood what you were saying.. I am a extremely poor typist (I live in a gl*** house) I didn't hold that against you.. I am thinking about installing Dragon to fix most of my problems in typing..

dberrie2000
01-06-2014, 05:55 AM
Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post"Works" for Paul, was the Mosaic Law. Romans 4 was about father Abraham--and Paul's point was that Abraham did not live under the law of works--Abraham did not do the works of the Mosaic because Abraham lived under the gospel of Christ--not the Mosaic Law.

If Paul were trying to make the point Abraham's obedience did not count unto salvational grace--he would have been squashed:


Genesis 26:4-5----King James Version (KJV)
4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;

5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.


Are you telling me that Abram wasn't given commandments from God?

Could you please explain your question in light of what I posted?

Genesis 26:4-5----King James Version (KJV)
4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;

5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

How is it that Abraham received of God's grace due to his obedience--and Abraham was not given commandments?


And in this context of who is righteous by either keeping the Law (the Jew), or becoming a law to themselves (the Greek) The Holy Spirit through Paul makes it clear that none of us keeps the Law.. Not ONE.. So any hope to gain eternal life through obedience is lost

Jim--your argument is with the scriptures:


Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)

9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

RealFakeHair
01-06-2014, 09:19 AM
Could you please explain your question in light of what I posted?

Genesis 26:4-5----King James Version (KJV)
4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;

5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

How is it that Abraham received of God's grace due to his obedience--and Abraham was not given commandments?



Jim--your argument is with the scriptures:


Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)

9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;


If anyone wish to live their lives by the Old Testament, knock yourself out. However I take the Grace of Jesus Christ of the Holy Bible, so get over it!

dberrie2000
01-06-2014, 09:51 AM
Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post---Could you please explain your question in light of what I posted?

Genesis 26:4-5----King James Version (KJV)
4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;

5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

How is it that Abraham received of God's grace due to his obedience--and Abraham was not given commandments?

Jim--your argument is with the scriptures:

Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)

9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;


If anyone wish to live their lives by the Old Testament, knock yourself out. However I take the Grace of Jesus Christ of the Holy Bible, so get over it!

What is there about Hebrews 5:9 you don't consider NT theology? IE--that God gives His salvational grace to them that obey Him?

RealFakeHair
01-06-2014, 10:06 AM
[/B]


What is there about Hebrews 5:9 you don't consider NT theology? IE--that God gives His salvational grace to them that obey Him?
You wanta play Bible ping-pong? What about Mat 19:21. Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.
So I hope you have sold all that you have, and are now following Jesus of The Holy Bible, and not some LDSinc. old guy.

neverending
01-06-2014, 10:21 AM
[/B]


What is there about Hebrews 5:9 you don't consider NT theology? IE--that God gives His salvational grace to them that obey Him?

God's grace is given FREELY! All he requires is that we have faith in him. For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. (Romans 4:3)

If Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? "ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS." Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due.… So then, this is work and God does not accept works. "And if by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace." Can you see that by works, God's grace has no part in it? God gives us His grace out of His love for us. All he asks of us in return is to believe in Him which is having faith in Him, trusting in Him. What is so difficult to understand? God's gospel is simple. Your religion's is not. You MUST work, you must obey, you must, you must, you must or never gain your exaltation. For me, a Christian, I already have my salvation for God has promised that to me in 11 John 5:13. Why make God's gospel into a works based one? There is no amount of works you could ever do that would be acceptable to God. "For all of us have become like one who is unclean, And all our righteous deeds are like a filthy garment; And all of us wither like a leaf, And our iniquities, like the wind, take us away (Isaiah 64:6).

dberrie2000
01-06-2014, 10:37 AM
[SIZE=3]God's grace is given FREELY! All he requires is that we have faith in him.

Is this an example of that faith?


Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)

38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Or--are you referring to dead faith?


James 2:26---King James Version (KJV)

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.


For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. (Romans 4:3)

And was this not Abraham's belief:


Genesis 26:4-5---King James Version (KJV)

4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;

5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.


If Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.

"Works" is a reference to the Mosaic Law. That was Paul's point--Abraham did not live under the Mosaic Law. He lived under the gospel of Christ.

Here is the jest of Romans 4--the Jews--who always justified themselves as the elect, because they could point to father Abraham as their father--Abraham did not live under the Mosaic Law(works)--which the Jews who fought against Paul did. Abraham lived under the gospel of Christ--the very gospel Paul was attempting t take to the Jews under the Mosaic Law. IOW--if Abraham did not receive the promises under the law of works(Mosaic Law)--then how could they receive it under the Mosaic Law now?


Romans 4:1---King James Version (KJV)

4 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?


What did Abraham find? The gospel of Christ--not the Mosaic Law(works)

Pa Pa
01-06-2014, 11:49 AM
Good solid Trinitarian doctrine. Three separate persons, one God.. That is a long way from the teaching of Joseph Smith as he said there are three persons and three Gods.

First Christ the "became" the author of Salvation...and learned obedience though the things which he suffered. Now had could Christ, become something or learned something if he was God the Father? Not To mention he "learned, line upon line and precept upon precept. Also, who was the God he cried out too on the cross, and obtained an equal heir. Not to mention he defines what on means in John 17...as he prayed that if God willing, let this cup p*** from me. He was praying to his God, also at the Tomb he said, "...go and tell my brothers, that I go to my Father and unto your Father, under my God and unto your God". All from the Bible...please your "A" game.

Apologette
01-07-2014, 12:53 PM
First Christ the "became" the author of Salvation...and learned obedience though the things which he suffered. Now had could Christ, become something or learned something if he was God the Father? Not To mention he "learned, line upon line and precept upon precept. Also, who was the God he cried out too on the cross, and obtained an equal heir. Not to mention he defines what on means in John 17...as he prayed that if God willing, let this cup p*** from me. He was praying to his God, also at the Tomb he said, "...go and tell my brothers, that I go to my Father and unto your Father, under my God and unto your God". All from the Bible...please your "A" game.
I'm surprised you misrepresent the Trinity as you do. Do you believe that Christians teach that Jesus was "God the Father?" What kind of Baptist Church did you attend?

nrajeffreturns
01-08-2014, 07:58 AM
I'm surprised you misrepresent the Trinity as you do.
It's Trinitarians who do that.


Do you believe that Christians teach that Jesus was "God the Father?"
Who do you think Isaiah was talking about when he prophesied about a Messiah who would be born of a virgin, and whose names would include "Mighty God, the everlasting father, prince of peace" ??

James Banta
01-08-2014, 09:35 AM
[nrajeffreturns;151798]It's Trinitarians who do that.

Oh yes we are really bad.. We teach like Jesus did, that the Lord our God is one Lord (Mark 12:29). We teach as is preserved in Mark 1:10-11 that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are three distinct Persons. We hold that the true God who is one Lord is the Only True God that exists. That there was no other before Him nor will there be after Him. That this God who knows all things doesn't even know that any other Gods exists.. And yet the Father is called God (John 20:17), Jesus is called God (John 1:1), and the Holy Spirit is called God (Acts 5:3-4). Three separate persons all called God and yet the Bible adamant that there is One God. And that even at the insistence of Jesus Himself.. So what other doctrine is there that allows there to be one God and yet have three persons to all be God? Can you come up with anything other then the doctrine of the Trinity? Teach us..


Who do you think Isaiah was talking about when he prophesied about a Messiah who would be born of a virgin, and whose names would include "Mighty God, the everlasting father, prince of peace" ??

I think of Jesus coming into the world to be our Savior. He is the Mighty God, the Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.. IHS jim

Christian
01-08-2014, 09:48 AM
Jeff posted:

Originally Posted by ApologetteI'm surprised you misrepresent the Trinity as you do.


It's Trinitarians who do that.

Nope Jeff, we CHRISTIANS present God EXACTLY as we see Him in SCRIPTURE. No misrepresentations of anything at all.


Do you believe that Christians teach that Jesus was "God the Father?"
Who do you think Isaiah was talking about when he prophesied about a Messiah who would be born of a virgin, and whose names would include "Mighty God, the everlasting father, prince of peace" ??

FIRST OFF, you should at least TRY to post the p***age CORRECTLY instead of WRESTING it to look like it agrees with you:
Isa 9:6
6 For unto us a Child is born,
Unto us a Son is given;
And the government will be upon His shoulder.
And His name will be called
Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
NKJV


Not "THE" everlasting Father, but just 'everlasting father.'

I too am called father by my own children sometimes. I AM a father. But like Jesus I AM NOT MY OWN father. JESUS IS NOT HIS OWN Father, the FATHER HE PRAYED TO.

You believe in a cultic jesus, my friend.

RealFakeHair
01-08-2014, 09:55 AM
It's Trinitarians who do that.


Who do you think Isaiah was talking about when he prophesied about a Messiah who would be born of a virgin, and whose names would include "Mighty God, the everlasting father, prince of peace" ??

If you are not an Trinitarian, you are either a one-ness meaing God, Jesus, are one person, or either you believe there is more than one god. The Holy Bible say there is but One God, and it also says God and Jesus are Father and Son, meaning more than one person. So if there is but One God , and if Jesus and God are two persons, there is only one possibility to remain faithful to The Word of God and that is the Trinity, Three Persons, One Godhead.

James Banta
01-08-2014, 10:02 AM
First Christ the "became" the author of Salvation...and learned obedience though the things which he suffered. Now had could Christ, become something or learned something if he was God the Father? Not To mention he "learned, line upon line and precept upon precept. Also, who was the God he cried out too on the cross, and obtained an equal heir. Not to mention he defines what on means in John 17...as he prayed that if God willing, let this cup p*** from me. He was praying to his God, also at the Tomb he said, "...go and tell my brothers, that I go to my Father and unto your Father, under my God and unto your God". All from the Bible...please your "A" game.

First Jesus is God and being so IS the Author of all things, yes even SALVATION.. So during all the temptations Jesus endured as he went alone into the wilderness after His baptism he was not obedient because that that time he hadn't suffered? MAKE SENSE!!! He was always obedient. He experienced (learned) the terrible consequences of sin all creation would have gone through if He hadn't had been willing to take onto Himself the guilty of the whole world. This is how and when he learned the greatness of His Mission.. Yes he always know about it, it wasn't a new concept to Him but here he faced it in absolute reality and learned the terror we would feel if we had to live trough it.. It's one thing to know about it.. It's another thing to live it.

Who said and where it it shown that Jesus had to learn line upon line and precept upon precept. you are inventing again.. And your inventions belittle God! On the cross Jesus cried out to the Father.. That wasn't the first time that He called out to Him.. Why are you bringing this instance up as a way to deny the trinity? Does it change the Facts that each member of the Godhead is called God and yet the Bible is clear that there is One God? Is the Bible not the word of God?

Is not the Father God? YES. And through Him was not all tat has ever been made, made? Does that not include the flesh in which the Spirit of Jesus indwells? Yes! It is then proper to call the Father His God.. Does that change the Fact that God is still the father, Son, and Holy Spirit? Are you denying now that the Son and the Holy Spirit are not God? That only the Father is God even though the Bible confirms that Jesus and the Holy Spirit are God, and because there is only one God they are just as much God as the Father? Conform your thinking to the Bible and these things can easily be understood.. IHS jim

James Banta
01-08-2014, 10:48 AM
Could you please explain your question in light of what I posted?

Genesis 26:4-5----King James Version (KJV)
4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;

5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

How is it that Abraham received of God's grace due to his obedience--and Abraham was not given commandments?



Jim--your argument is with the scriptures:


Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)

9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;


If god were to tell you to do something would that not be a commandment? Would it not be a His statutes, and His laws for you? Did Abram leave his family , his home and travel out into the wilderness just because God told him to do so? Did he not stay in the hills above the cities of the plain because that is where God told Him to be? Did he not take Issac to the mountain to offer him as a sacrifice because God commanded him to do so? But also Abram lied to Pharaoh about who Sarai was? Why did he mistrust God to provide him a son and take Hagar as his wife to force God's promises to be fulfilled? Abram showed both great faithfulness and great mistrust.

The p***age never says that Abram received of God's grace only that because of his obedience that in his seed would all the world be blessed.. And Jesus was of the seed of Abram.. That was due to all Abram did that was in compliance to God's will.. But the reason Abram was righteous was through believing God not through works..

You have to understand you are being a bit hypercritical here. You have not confirmed to me that you are obeying Jesus is all things. You will never come to a place where you do so, at least not in this world. Therefore when your life is over here you will be judged and DISOBEDIENT. Therefore you will not receive His eternal salvation. No one who isn't perfect as the father in heaven is perfect will UNLESS They allow Jesus to become sin in their place and take His righteousness as their own.

So you to say that I am outside the scriptures in how I see the scriptures. That makes no sense.. How can God tell us that only those who personally obey Him can be saved when He knew that everyone of us would be disobedient? I am outside mormon teaching and I see that as a good thing.. I teach that God made Jesus, He who knew no sin to be sin, so that we can become the righteousness of God in Him.. SO WE COULD BE MADE THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF GOD. If we have believed in Jesus and therefore been given everlasting life, we have been given the righteousness of God in Him.. Having that righteousness we have completely conformed to Him commandments, we have obeyed Him through our faith in Jesus. We have kept all commandments to obey Him because He did it for us and we have been given His righteousness.. Since I am now in Him I have obeyed him 100%.. I meet the qualification for obedience you keep throwing up into our faces.. All that is done now we are free to love Him and worship Him for this great gift.. Still the nagging question is how are you obedient in disobedience, since you keep sinning and will for the rest of your life. IHS jim

James Banta
01-08-2014, 10:58 AM
Are you saying that no Christian has never done any of those things--or that one is not a Christian if they do those things?

Is he saying that our flesh isn't weak anymore and we never sin? No, he isn't saying that he is saying just what Paul said about sin in his life..

Romans 7:17-20
Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

There you go an explanation of sin after a person is in Christ by God the Holy Spirit through the Apostle Paul.. You can believe Him or reject Him.. If you reject Him don't tell me that you believe the Bible.. IHS jim

nrajeffreturns
01-08-2014, 12:01 PM
Oh yes we are really bad.. We teach like Jesus did...
I don't think Jesus taught that He and His Father are the same being.


Three separate persons all called God and yet the Bible adamant that there is One God.
One of those separate persons said that another of the persons is the only true God. Do you believe what that person said? Or not?


So what other doctrine is there that allows there to be one God and yet have three persons to all be God?
Arianism and Modalism both allow for 3 personae but still one God. There is also LDSism, which keeps the correct parts of Arianism, Modalism, and Trinitarianism, but doesn't have the incorrect parts of any of those.


Can you come up with anything other then the doctrine of the Trinity? Teach us..
LDS theology does a better *** of reconciling the apparent contradictions than any of the competing theologies does.


I think of Jesus coming into the world to be our Savior. He is the Mighty God, the Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.. IHS jim
Apologette asked me: "Do you believe that Christians teach that Jesus was "God the Father?"


It looks like your answer to her question is "Yes."

James Banta
01-08-2014, 09:45 PM
[nrajeffreturns;151822]I don't think Jesus taught that He and His Father are the same being.\

Jesus taught that the Lord our God in one Lord (Mark 12:29)..


One of those separate persons said that another of the persons is the only true God. Do you believe what that person said? Or not?

I have said that myself about God.. I have said that the Father is God. That He is all the God there is or ever can be.. In that same response I have have said that The Son is God. That He is all the God there is or ever can be.is God. That He is all the God there is or ever can be. And that the Holy Spirit is God. That He is all the God there is or ever can be. Yes I have shown that Jesus has said the there is One GOD.. I have elsewhere showed that Jesus claimed to be the God that spoke to Moses out of the burning bush as He said "Before Abraham was I AM".. The same name God gave to Moses.. Maybe you don't understand that but but the people around about did and nor believing Jesus was God they picked up stones to stone Him (John 8:59).. Yes Jesus was claiming to be God!


Arianism and Modalism both allow for 3 personae but still one God. There is also LDSism, which keeps the correct parts of Arianism, Modalism, and Trinitarianism, but doesn't have the incorrect parts of any of those.

Arianism like mormonism teaches that Jesus is a creation of God.. It has the same problem as does mormonism. The Bible says that no God was formed before God and none will be formed after. By that authority neither Arianism nor mormonism believe Jesus can be a true God.. He must be at most a demigod.. Modalism teaches that God is one person who has revealed himself in three forms or modes. I have been branded as being a modalist several times here and on other forums.. But I am a Trinitarian. A Trinitarian believes that God is one being eternally existing in three persons. I have explained this to you in a way that God explained it to me.. Each Time I have it has not just been disagreed with but ridiculed.. Never has it been addressed as false, it was just ridiculed as ridiculous.. The Holy Spirit used it to teach me.. I will not allow you to rub a word given to me from God into the dirt.. Modalism come the closest to having an explanation of how God could be the Father Son and the Holy Spirit and still allow each to be God.. It does make Jesus crazy talking to Himself on prayer, since Jesus was the only mode of God that existed during His mortal ministry.. In this age Jesus no longer exists the mode of God is now the Holy Spirit.. So does Modalism allow that there one God and yet have three person to all be God? No, It allows for God to be one person at a time.. You still haven't shown any doctrine that allows for God to be one Lord, and yet the Father to be God, the Son to be God, and the Holy Spirit to be God all at the same time..


LDS theology does a better *** of reconciling the apparent contradictions than any of the competing theologies does.

I have heard two competing doctrines taught in mormonism..
1. That only the Father is God and that the Son, and the Holy Spirit are like His counselors.. They are not God but support and sustain Him in His divinity..
And 2. As taught by Joseph Smith, I have always declared God to be a distinct personage, Jesus Christ a separate and distinct personage from God the Father, and that the Holy Ghost was a distinct personage and a Spirit: and these three cons***ute three distinct personages and three Gods. If this is in accordance with the New Testament, lo and behold! we have three Gods anyhow, and they are plural: and who can contradict it!

The first denies the divinity of Jesus completely.. The second calls Jesus a liar as he quoted the the doctrine of God as it was given to Moses "The Lord our God is One Lord".. So which are you. One that denies Jesus is God, or one that teaches Jesus to be a liar?



Apologette asked me: "Do you believe that Christians teach that Jesus was "God the Father?"

It looks like your answer to her question is "Yes."[/QUOTE]

Apologette is a Christian woman.. She believes the Bible.. The Bible clearly says that "For unto us a Child is born, unto us a Son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace." because it is taught that Jesus is called The mighty God, The everlasting Father, the answer to that question is an undeniable YES.. IHS jim

dberrie2000
01-09-2014, 06:27 AM
Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post----Could you please explain your question in light of what I posted?

Genesis 26:4-5----King James Version (KJV)
4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

How is it that Abraham received of God's grace due to his obedience--and Abraham was not given commandments?

Jim--your argument is with the scriptures:

Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)

9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;



If god were to tell you to do something would that not be a commandment? Would it not be a His statutes, and His laws for you? Did Abram leave his family , his home and travel out into the wilderness just because God told him to do so? Did he not stay in the hills above the cities of the plain because that is where God told Him to be? Did he not take Issac to the mountain to offer him as a sacrifice because God commanded him to do so? But also Abram lied to Pharaoh about who Sarai was? Why did he mistrust God to provide him a son and take Hagar as his wife to force God's promises to be fulfilled? Abram showed both great faithfulness and great mistrust.

The p***age never says that Abram received of God's grace only that because of his obedience that in his seed would all the world be blessed..

Could you explain how all this rationalization somehow cancels, rubs out, annuls, or deletes the fact the scriptures have God giving His salvational grace unto Abraham because of his obedience? Jim--if that is true--then faith alone theology is false--period.

It's a broken egg for the faith alone--and all the king's men--and all their horses can't put it back together again.


And Jesus was of the seed of Abram.. That was due to all Abram did that was in compliance to God's will..

Are you sure you don't want to bring Abraham's lie up again?


Jim---- But also Abram lied to Pharaoh about who Sarai was? Why did he mistrust God to provide him a son and take Hagar as his wife to force God's promises to be fulfilled? Abram showed both great faithfulness and great mistrust.


But the reason Abram was righteous was through believing God not through works..

Not through works--as in the Mosaic Law--because Abraham lived under the gospel of Christ. But if the scriptures are true--then Abraham received of the promisesd because of His obedience to Christ:

Genesis 26:4-5----King James Version (KJV)
4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.


What is your evidence that Abraham's obedience was not an integral component to his faith?


James 2:21-24----King James Version (KJV)

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

RealFakeHair
01-09-2014, 09:42 AM
Could you explain how all this rationalization somehow cancels, rubs out, annuls, or deletes the fact the scriptures have God giving His salvational grace unto Abraham because of his obedience? Jim--if that is true--then faith alone theology is false--period.

It's a broken egg for the faith alone--and all the king's men--and all their horses can't put it back together again.



Are you sure you don't want to bring Abraham's lie up again?





Not through works--as in the Mosaic Law--because Abraham lived under the gospel of Christ. But if the scriptures are true--then Abraham received of the promisesd because of His obedience to Christ:

Genesis 26:4-5----King James Version (KJV)
4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.


What is your evidence that Abraham's obedience was not an integral component to his faith?


James 2:21-24----King James Version (KJV)

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Okay, one hit wonder. It might help your case if you could show us how much (work) it takes to balance it with faith?
Is it 1% faith and 99% works, or maybe you don't know?

James Banta
01-09-2014, 11:54 AM
Okay, one hit wonder. It might help your case if you could show us how much (work) it takes to balance it with faith?
Is it 1% faith and 99% works, or maybe you don't know?

I guess it takes a lot more works than faith.. I see this in the scripture:

Matthew 7:22-23
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works.
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

So how much work does it take to balance with Faith.. All the works, the full population that the earth has ever held, could have done if all they had done one good work after the next could never measure up to a man that says "I believe help me in my unbelief" (Mark 9:24).. IHS jim

James Banta
01-09-2014, 12:09 PM
But under the NT--all were commanded to repent and be baptized for the remission of sins--and that was made possible through the Atonement of Jesus Christ--and His blood sacrifice:


Ephesians 1:7---King James Version (KJV)

7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

Hair--the forgiveness of sins comes through the Blood of Christ--period. There was nothing else ever sufficient whereby sins could be forgiven, nor will be--past, present, or future of that great Atonement of Jesus Christ.

DB you are starting to understand that water isn't the means by which forgiveness of Sin is made available to mankind.. Baptism can mean many things.. It could even be infant baptism.. I never have seen an age limit of it.. Baptism may even include being emerged in the Faith that Jesus is God and our Savior.. never is it said in the scripture that we must be baptized by those in authority to baptize.. The LDS church has taken (cherry picked) a few p***ages and added their doctrine to them and then put them out to the world as the truth according to the Bible. But as you have come to see when Bible believers question your doctrine of baptism you have to back peddle and come to the Biblical teaching that is the Blood of Jesus shed on the cross that has that saving power.. IHS jim

dberrie2000
01-09-2014, 03:54 PM
Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post---But under the NT--all were commanded to repent and be baptized for the remission of sins--and that was made possible through the Atonement of Jesus Christ--and His blood sacrifice:


Ephesians 1:7---King James Version (KJV)

7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

Hair--the forgiveness of sins comes through the Blood of Christ--period. There was nothing else ever sufficient whereby sins could be forgiven, nor will be--past, present, or future of that great Atonement of Jesus Christ.


DB you are starting to understand that water isn't the means by which forgiveness of Sin is made available to mankind..

Yes it is--that was the gospel from the beginning:


Mark 1:1-4----King James Version (KJV)


1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;

2 As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.

3 The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.

4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.


That is what was taught throughout the NT--repentance and water baptism for the remission of sins. That forgiveness comes through the Blood Atonement of Jesus Christ--that is what makes it possible.

James Banta
01-09-2014, 11:40 PM
Yes it is--that was the gospel from the beginning:


Mark 1:1-4----King James Version (KJV)


1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;

2 As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.

3 The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.

4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.


That is what was taught throughout the NT--repentance and water baptism for the remission of sins. That forgiveness comes through the Blood Atonement of Jesus Christ--that is what makes it possible.


I am sorry you don't know what the Bible teaches even about John's baptism.. lets explore it together shall we?

In acts we find Paul coming on a group of men that had not received the gift of the Holy Spirit and he asked them to what baptize they had been baptized.. They said to John's baptism.. Lets see from the Bible what Paul said and what he did for these men..

Acts 19:1-6
And it came to p***, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having p***ed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,
He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.And it came to p***, that, while Apollos

So as Mark began to relate the Life and Works of Jesus, everything He did to show us who He is, and all He did to bring us salvation, he calls it the Gospel and so it is.. But the works of John are not those works.. Only that which Jesus did is the Good News of God's work to bring us to Himself.. Since the baptism of John is identified by the Apostle Paul and insufficient it is NOT part of the Gospel.. What is identified as the access means for salvation BY JESUS is holding faith in Him.. He said That God loved the world so much that He sent His only begotten Son and that whoever believes in His would never die but have everlasting Life.. So John is preaching his baptism of repentance and not the baptism of Life.. You are stopping way to early in identifying the full Gospel.. You should read more of God's word and find out that we need to be born of the Spirit of God to become His children. That we are by nature children of wrath..

Please explain how we can receive remission of sins through an incomplete baptism.. If remission of sin by water baptism was taught all though the Bible why do you rely on two verses? On the contrary it is salvation by Grace through faith that is taught throughout the Bible From Genesis 15:6, John 3:16, Eph 2:8-9, ***us 3:5, Rev 3:20 to name a few right off the top of my head.. Remember it is also taught that without faith it is impossible to please God, and He rewards those that seek Him (Hebrews 11:6).. So again your p***age here must mean that we are baptized because we have been cleansed not because we are forgiven by baptism.. IHS jim

dberrie2000
01-10-2014, 04:10 AM
Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post---Yes it is--that was the gospel from the beginning:
Mark 1:1-4----King James Version (KJV)


1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;

2 As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.

3 The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.

4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.


That is what was taught throughout the NT--repentance and water baptism for the remission of sins. That forgiveness comes through the Blood Atonement of Jesus Christ--that is what makes it possible.


I am sorry you don't know what the Bible teaches even about John's baptism.. lets explore it together shall we?

In acts we find Paul coming on a group of men that had not received the gift of the Holy Spirit and he asked them to what baptize they had been baptized.. They said to John's baptism.. Lets see from the Bible what Paul said and what he did for these men..

Acts 19:1-6
And it came to p***, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having p***ed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,
He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.And it came to p***, that, while Apollos

So as Mark began to relate the Life and Works of Jesus, everything He did to show us who He is, and all He did to bring us salvation, he calls it the Gospel and so it is.. But the works of John are not those works.. Only that which Jesus did is the Good News of God's work to bring us to Himself.. Since the baptism of John is identified by the Apostle Paul and insufficient it is NOT part of the Gospel.. What is identified as the access means for salvation BY JESUS is holding faith in Him.. He said That God loved the world so much that He sent His only begotten Son and that whoever believes in His would never die but have everlasting Life.. So John is preaching his baptism of repentance and not the baptism of Life.. You are stopping way to early in identifying the full Gospel.. You should read more of God's word and find out that we need to be born of the Spirit of God to become His children. That we are by nature children of wrath..

Please explain how we can receive remission of sins through an incomplete baptism.. If remission of sin by water baptism was taught all though the Bible why do you rely on two verses? On the contrary it is salvation by Grace through faith that is taught throughout the Bible From Genesis 15:6, John 3:16, Eph 2:8-9, ***us 3:5, Rev 3:20 to name a few right off the top of my head.. Remember it is also taught that without faith it is impossible to please God, and He rewards those that seek Him (Hebrews 11:6).. So again your p***age here must mean that we are baptized because we have been cleansed not because we are forgiven by baptism.. IHS jim

James--while no one will argue that repentance and water baptism is all of the gospel of Christ--it was a very important part of the gospel of Christ--and was the very beginning of the gospel, as St Mark testifies to.

I believe your post might hold some truths--but to rationalize repentance and water baptism as something we do because we have already been forgiven is something the scriptures testifies against. Again--what about the scriptures do you not believe?


Acts 22:16---King James Version (KJV)

16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

What is it about repentance and water baptism you don't feel is faith in Christ? Walking in the light? Enduring to the end? Serving?

Matthew 10:22---King James Version (KJV)

22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.


While I would agree that works will not save one--neither will faith without works lead to salvation. There is a combination of a change of heart and obedience required by God. That amounts to faith in Christ. Salvation by grace without obedience to Jesus Christ is a dead faith. To love God is to obey and serve:

John 14:15---King James Version (KJV)
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

nrajeffreturns
01-10-2014, 04:59 AM
Perhaps the problem people like Jim have with the Bible verses that seem to contradict each other is merely a matter of perspective, like in the story where each blind man thought that the part of the elephant he could feel was the whole, entire elephant.

In one place in the Bible, it mentions baptism for the remission of sins. In another, it states that Jesus' blood does it. In another, it says that obedience to God's will does it.

Latching on to only one piece of the puzzle leaves you with just that one piece.

It's like if your mom said "You need to get up tomorrow morning and ride the bus to school if you want to get an A in Chemistry" and you concluded that the teacher hands out A's for getting up and riding a bus, when actually those actions only help get you to where you can do the schoolwork and take the tests that can result in getting the A.

Having faith, repenting of sins, getting baptized, showing charity, etc., each is a part of what you need to do for eternal life. But none of them is the source of it. Grace, Jesus and His atonement are the source.

James Banta
01-10-2014, 10:14 AM
[dberrie2000;151912]James--while no one will argue that repentance and water baptism is all of the gospel of Christ--it was a very important part of the gospel of Christ--and was the very beginning of the gospel, as St Mark testifies to.

I am not arguing against repentance, I am not even questioning baptism, What I am pointing out here is that John's baptism has no place in the Gospel of Jesus as pointed out through Paul and the gift of the Holy Spirit.. John never baptized anyone in the name of God.. All he did was use water to symbolize a commitment of those that submitted to his baptism that they would live for God and not for the world.. I love Acts 22:16 it is one verse that makes it very clear that our sins are washed away as we call on the name of the Lord.. That p***age is all about being cleaned by God's grace through faith.. Matthew said that those of us that endure to the end, but endure in what? Since we all continue to sin even knowing it is wrong as Paul said he did (Romans 7:14-25), what does it mean to endure to the end? It must mean that we endure to the end in FAITH.. We can hold faith all our days, as you can see we can't live in total obedience, because sin is still in us, in our flesh..

James has spelled out the works of faith we must not neglect.. There is nothing in His admonishments that leads us to repentance, baptism, or even faith in Jesus.. There is an admonishment to hold that there is one God.. With mormonism teaching three separate Gods can you really tell me that the LDS church teaching are the doctrines of faith and works the LDS church is pointing to? Look at what most of James 2 is about.. Its about how wrong it is to show preference to the rich over the poor.. It's about clothing the naked and feeding the hungry. There is no teaching here to be baptized, to do missionary work, even to pray.. James was talking to believers here not to the world.. People that have already been though conversion.. He tells them to get off their backsides and do those things that God (Jesus) is calling them to do in His name..


I believe your post might hold some truths--but to rationalize repentance and water baptism as something we do because we have already been forgiven is something the scriptures testifies against. Again--what about the scriptures do you not believe?

I am not teaching that repentance is not required.. I am not teaching that baptism is not a commandment.. I have done both and in the case of repentance I have done that more than most people and I continue to walk in repentance daily.. I have been baptized in the name of God (Father Son, and Holy Spirit). I do not however see anything in baptism that cleanses me from sin. I call on His name, I testify that He is my Father and my God.. I am going to be 62 years old this spring. I know that most of my life is over.. This brings me to cling to His promises.. I don't see the promises for live in mormonism. I will live only if I obey.. The trouble is I am honest enough to know that I DON'T OBEY.. I am discerning enough to see that God is right and there is none righteous, not one. There is none that understands, there is none that seeks for God.Everyone has become unprofitable; there is no one that does good.. Me, you, our leaders.. No one is good.. Without Jesus we all deserve hell. With Jesus no one can deny us the right to boldly approach the throne of God.. and how do we obtain that position? ONLY THOUGH HIS GRACE! We are all disobedient. We can't think that the few times in our lives that we obey God are enough to overcome the thousands of times we throw obedience aside and serve that sin that lives within our flesh just as it did within Paul's flesh. We sin, if we are honest we will recognize that and agree with God that all have sinned, or better I SIN LORD, I AM DISOBEDIENT, BUT I DO LOVE YOU AND WANT TO FOLLOW YOU.. Lord I believe you, help me in my unbelief.. What GRACE HE HAS.. He extends His grace even to such a man as me and makes me His child (John 1:12-13)..


Acts 22:16---King James Version (KJV)

16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

I care about you.. Like Paul who had a deep yearning to see his people, Israel, come to a saving knowledge of the work Jesus did for them unto salvation, the LDS are my people.. He grow up among Israel, I grew up among my people the LDS.. His hearts desire for His people is the same as mine is for you.. That you might be saved.. So I show you why mormonism is unbiblical.. The truth is IT DOESN'T matter what religion you are.. As long as God allows you to stay in the LDS church, STAY.. What matters is who is God and what did He do. Nothing else is important.. I call on you to believe Him. He promised that His word would never p*** away, we can trust it.. He promised to never leave us, so we can know He is always walking with us.. He promised that His Church would never die, we can know that His Church never sunk totally into apostasy.. Stay LDS if that is where you feel God is calling you.. Just know that you don't need a prophet as in the past because in these last days God speaks to us, all of us, through His Son..


What is it about repentance and water baptism you don't feel is faith in Christ? Walking in the light? Enduring to the end? Serving?

I see that agreeing with God about who we are what we have done, WHAT WE ARE DOING, is important. It is important to take these CRIMES against Him to his feet and confess them agreeing with Him of our place before Him. Agree that we have lusted, we have been angry, we have coveted, that our hearts are deceitful above all things and desperately wicked to the point that only He can know the depth of our wickedness. Even our own minds can't understand the depths of our sin.. In no way do I minimize the great need for us to repent and repent often, I have a great teacher that explained why he spent so much time going over repentance and the sin that is part of all of us.. He said "I know you all have heard these things again and again but we are earthen vessels and because of that WE LEAK; we must be refilled again and again". I have leaked so bad that I went dry and did nothing but sin. I have taken my sin back to my Lord and he has taken that sin away, not that there wasn't creation..


Matthew 10:22---King James Version (KJV)

22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.


While I would agree that works will not save one--neither will faith without works lead to salvation. There is a combination of a change of heart and obedience required by God. That amounts to faith in Christ. Salvation by grace without obedience to Jesus Christ is a dead faith. To love God is to obey and serve:

John 14:15---King James Version (KJV)
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

The commandments are something that my flesh will NOT Keep.. I agree that it (my flesh) has no love for God in it.. It is totally rebellious. But there is a new creation within me not that which is of flesh but is spiritual.. That creation is sinless and loves God completely.. While my flesh is dying and will become ashes and dust, that spirit that is born of God will continue and be clothed in incorruption. a Body like that Jesus showed to His disciples in the upper room.. So the commandments I must keep here are to believe Him, and to love my fellows.. These things I obey.. IHS jim

James Banta
01-10-2014, 10:54 AM
[nrajeffreturns;151914]Perhaps the problem people like Jim have with the Bible verses that seem to contradict each other is merely a matter of perspective, like in the story where each blind man thought that the part of the elephant he could feel was the whole, entire elephant.

Sorry jeff that story is not found in the Bible.. And I have told you that in the righteousness of Jesus a righteousness that is of faith (Hebrews 11:7) I and all such as believe Him are given the His righteousness. Because God made Him to be sin, He who knew no sin, that we can be made the righteousness of God in Him.. There is no other way we could gain that righteousness but having that righteousness fulfills ALL the p***ages that require obedience.. That my friend is the WHOLE ELEPHANT.


In one place in the Bible, it mentions baptism for the remission of sins. In another, it states that Jesus' blood does it. In another, it says that obedience to God's will does it.

Latching on to only one piece of the puzzle leaves you with just that one piece.

But jeff in receiving the righteousness of Jesus are not all those requirements met? is not Jesus perfect as the Father in heaven is perfect? And having His righteousness the Christian even meets that commandment.. So have we not also had our sin remitted whether it be through because our sin have been forgiven or to get them remitted, or if Blood is required to do that ***, or if it is only accomplished in obedience? Once we are the righteousness of God how can we not be worthy no matter how you want to believe remission of sins comes to us. seems by either teaching baptism or obedience you are missing the blood of Jesus which is by God's grace through faith..


It's like if your mom said "You need to get up tomorrow morning and ride the bus to school if you want to get an A in Chemistry" and you concluded that the teacher hands out A's for getting up and riding a bus, when actually those actions only help get you to where you can do the schoolwork and take the tests that can result in getting the A.

But if someone offered you the grade by grace without the work would you not get the A? If it was offered by the highest authority in the school system would it not be your grade? That is what Jesus did for us.. He earned the A and gave it to us.. In doing that He created in us a desire to do His work of loving others..


Having faith, repenting of sins, getting baptized, showing charity, etc., each is a part of what you need to do for eternal life. But none of them is the source of it. Grace, Jesus and His atonement are the source.

And each and every point of those requirements are part of the gift of salvation he bought for us in His blood, just as you have said.. Yes faith works.. But the works of that faith are merely the evidence of it's existence..

Tell me you believe that faith without works is dead right? Why is it you scoff at other verses in James 2? Why do you deny that God is one (James 2:19), why do you deny that keeping the whole law only to fail in one point makes one guilty of all (James 2:10)? I believe that true faith works. James completely agrees on this point with Paul as he taught that we are created in Jesus to do good works (Eph 2:10) even though Paul makes it clear that it is God's grace unlocked by Faith in Jesus that saves and NOT THE WORKS..

Here the christian is believing the whole of God's work and the LDS wants to reject the grace of God and earn their salvation by their own efforts. We explain that works reveal true faith but is is notworks that bring us salvation but God's grace which is made available through faith and NOT OF WORKS.. They only way to hold that works have anything to do with salvation is to deny most of the New Testament even the words of Jesus as He taught that "God so loved the world that He gave His only Son that whosoever believes in Him will not perish but have everlasting life".. IHS jim

dberrie2000
01-10-2014, 12:05 PM
The commandments are something that my flesh will NOT Keep.. I agree that it (my flesh) has no love for God in it.. It is totally rebellious.

How does that fit with Paul's testimony?


Galatians 5:19-21---King James Version (KJV)[/B]

19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

James Banta
01-10-2014, 12:56 PM
How does that fit with Paul's testimony?


Galatians 5:19-21---King James Version (KJV)[/B]

19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time pas? t, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Glad you asked I don't mind teaching you at all.. What does the p***age tell us? Doesn't it says that such sins are the works of the flesh? Yes it does, see it? Isn't that what I said as I quoted Paul in Romans 7:18 that "For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing".. Yes indeed.. I am again consistent in my teaching of the Bible.. No flesh will inherit the kingdom of God, for the heart of men is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked. I don't separate the Christian in their flesh from that condemnation. IHS jim

dberrie2000
01-11-2014, 03:44 PM
Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post---How does that fit with Paul's testimony?


Galatians 5:19-21---King James Version (KJV)[/B]

19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time pas? t, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.


Glad you asked I don't mind teaching you at all.. What does the p***age tell us? Doesn't it says that such sins are the works of the flesh? Yes it does, see it? Isn't that what I said as I quoted Paul in Romans 7:18 that "For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing".. Yes indeed.. I am again consistent in my teaching of the Bible.. No flesh will inherit the kingdom of God,

Are you saying Christ did not go into the Kingdom of God?


Luke 24:39---King James Version (KJV)

39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.


Paul did not make the point flesh does not inherit the kingdom of God--but rather--those in the flesh who commit such things as listed--do not inherit the kingdom of God.(flesh and blood, maybe. But not flesh)

nrajeffreturns
01-12-2014, 12:39 AM
Tell me you believe that faith without works is dead right? Why is it you scoff at other verses in James 2? Why do you deny that God is one (James 2:19)
I don't deny it. I just disagree with your incorrect interpretation of what it was intended to mean.


, why do you deny that keeping the whole law only to fail in one point makes one guilty of all (James 2:10)?
I don't deny it. I just understand that it was a reference to the legalistic rules of the Torah. Since you don't understand that, you reach a different, incorrect conclusion regarding what it's supposed to mean.


Here the christian is believing the whole of God's work and the LDS wants to reject the grace of God and earn their salvation by their own efforts.
That is a false statement.


We explain that works reveal true faith but is is notworks that bring us salvation but God's grace which is made available through faith and NOT OF WORKS..
You studiously avoid the question of whether OBEDIENCE is a condition for eternal life. Why do you deny the Biblical truth that if you want eternal life, you MUST obey God's commandments? Obedience is one of the REQUIREMENTS.

James Banta
01-12-2014, 09:13 AM
[nrajeffreturns;151966]I don't deny it. I just disagree with your incorrect interpretation of what it was intended to mean.

So I am dead wrong when I see a p***age that says that salvation is NOT OF WORKS, I must agree with you that salvation requires works or my interpretation is incorrect. If I quote Roman 11:6 and sat that salvation is either by works or by grace but not both I am again incorrect? I guess so because you trust what a man teaches even over the Scripture (Ezra Taft Benson, Fourteen Fundamentals in Following the Prophet, Devotional address Brigham Young University, February 26, 1980). So you then don't care at all what the Bible teaches YOU HAVE A PROPHET.. It doesn't matter he he teaches doctrines the Bible contradicts, it doesn't matter if he tells you to g after other Gods, you have a prophet and in that same address Benson teaches that "will never lead the Church astray", even thought that is just what you believed happened after the death of the Apostles in the first century.. So don't listen to me I am not a prophet. I lean on the Scripture as my only guide to truth.. So you do deny scripture because a prophet had taught you that your works must be done to gain salvation no matter what Jesus did, no matter what the scripture teach..


I don't deny it. I just understand that it was a reference to the legalistic rules of the Torah. Since you don't understand that, you reach a different, incorrect conclusion regarding what it's supposed to mean.

And you believe the Law doesn't count any more? Didn't Jesus teach us that His reason for coming into the world wasn't to destroy the Law but be it's fulfillment? Doesn't the scripture teach that the Law is our schoolmaster to bring us to Jesus? YES!! As we read the sermon on the mount we see that Jesus intensified the Law.. No longer is it sin just to murder, being angry is enough to break that Law.. No longer must we commit adultery, just to look at a woman in list breaks the Law.. The Law is still there, it is still in force, it is eternal. It will be by the Law a man will be judged guilty or innocent before a Holy God.. The Law of Jesus, is not the same thing. That is the Law James calls the Law of liberty, it requires God grace to enter.


That is a false statement.

Is it? In your own creed it says "We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.” [AofF 3] If this isn't the law given by God to Moses what Laws is it that this point of the LDS creed is specking? Is it speaking of even the Laws Jesus gave to us? Yes? Didn't Jesus command that we be perfect as His Father in Heaven is perfect? (Matthew 5:48).. Have you been obedient to that LAW? No? If not then you will not gain salvation because you are not obedient. There is no obedience in disobedience.. Either you are not telling me the truth that the LDS reject salvation by God's grace or Paul in Romans 11:6 was lying to us.. Salvation is either by grace or by works NOT BOTH.. You seem to always skate the issue of your own personal obedience.. I guess that is because looking at it would make you understand your lack of obedience.. Sorry jeff but you are no more obedient than I am..


You studiously avoid the question of whether OBEDIENCE is a condition for eternal life. Why do you deny the Biblical truth that if you want eternal life, you MUST obey God's commandments? Obedience is one of the REQUIREMENTS.

Here is the definitive answer you seem to not see in our words.. OBEDIENCE (a man's personal obedience) IS NOT A CONDITION TO GAIN ETERNAL LIFE! Is that clear enough? Obedience however is required to gain eternal life.. Sound contradictory? Jesus commanded that we be perfect even as the Father in heaven is perfect.. He is the only one that ever lived that achieved that level of perfection. Either He is the Only man ever born of a woman that can be saved or 2 Corinthians 5:21 is how we can keep that commandment to be perfect.. One or the other because OBEDIENCE IS NOT FOUND IN DISOBEDIENCE.. IHS jim

alanmolstad
08-13-2017, 06:43 AM
we are saved by grace though faith.....

This means that salvation comes to use from God's grace though the channel of our faith in Him.

This also means that works are a moot point, you dont get anything from works.



We are saved only though the working of God's grace though our faith and not by our works that are always with our faith.


I heard it said on the TV one time, "Saving faith saves alone, but saving faith is never alone"....

And it is to be remembered that our faith is never alone, yet we also need to keep in mind that works do not save.



Thus we are NOT saved via faith and works!

alanmolstad
08-26-2017, 06:37 AM
Still one of my best answers to the Mormon's false understanding of salvation...


"we are saved by grace though faith.....

This means that salvation comes to use from God's grace though the channel of our faith in Him.

This also means that works are a moot point, you dont get anything from works.



We are saved only though the working of God's grace though our faith and not by our works that are always with our faith.


I heard it said on the TV one time, "Saving faith saves alone, but saving faith is never alone"....

And it is to be remembered that our faith is never alone, yet we also need to keep in mind that works do not save.



Thus we are NOT saved via faith and works! "

Christian
08-28-2017, 04:22 PM
Not by faith, not by works, not by trust, not by obedience, not by belief--but by grace. And that leaves but one question. Who does God's grace unto life go to?


Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)


9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;


Since it is talking ONLY of Jesus (READ THE CONTEXT. . .you know. . .the STUFF AROUND IT.

It is clear that you are dull of hearing. . .

Christian
08-28-2017, 04:26 PM
Do you believe this is a reference to dead faith?


James 2:20-26---King James Version (KJV)

20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.




IF you have faith in Jesus Christ your faith is NOT dead.

IF you simply (as the man in the James p***age) simply 'say' you have faith, but have no works, you don't. IF you have faith (and are therefore forgiven the penalty of your sins) you have eternal life in Jesus Christ; your FAITH is counted as righteousness..


You can 'say' anything you want. YOU say you are a 'christian.' I don't believe you. . .your 'works' reveal what YOU have faith in. . .joey the heretic smith.

Erundur
08-28-2017, 06:54 PM
Since it is talking ONLY of Jesus (READ THE CONTEXT. . .you know. . .the STUFF AROUND IT.
Um, no, the bolded part is not talking ONLY of Jesus. :rolleyes:

dberrie2000
09-29-2017, 08:29 AM
Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post Do you believe this is a reference to dead faith?

James 2:20-26---King James Version (KJV)
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.


[COLOR=#0000cd]IF you have faith in Jesus Christ your faith is NOT dead. IF you simply (as the man in the James p***age) simply 'say' you have faith, but have no works, you don't.

Then could you explain for us why the faith alone(sola fide) preach obtaining salvation to the exclusion of all works?

alanmolstad
09-30-2017, 07:03 AM
Then could you explain for us why the faith alone(sola fide) preach obtaining salvation to the exclusion of all works?


we are saved by grace though faith...and not by works.




"Not by works".....is not the same thing as "without works"



This is the main error that Mormons have, for they see the words "not by works" and twist it into saying "without works".



If the Mormon would simply understand that faith is never without works, and yet works cant save they would be able to overcome their blindness in this area.

dberrie2000
09-30-2017, 07:45 AM
we are saved by grace though faith...and not by works.

So--when you use the term "faith" above--is that a reference to a faith with works--or a faith without works?

alanmolstad
09-30-2017, 07:55 AM
So--when you use the term "faith" above--is that a reference to a faith with works--or a faith without works?

when I use the term I mean it to be the following....

We are saved by Grace alone...
We are saved by Grace though faith alone.

Faith is never alone, for faith always has some works with it.

Yet we are not saved by Grace though faith AND works, nor are we saved by Faith, nor by works, nor by any combination of faith and works.



How are all saved?...the answer is that we are saved only by Grace , and that Grace works only though our faith,, and not by our works that are always with our faith.




any questions on this so far?.....just let me know if you have any questions on this part before I move on to the next step

dberrie2000
09-30-2017, 08:19 AM
Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post So--when you use the term "faith" above--is that a reference to a faith with works--or a faith without works?



when I use the term I mean it to be the following....

We are saved by Grace alone...
We are saved by Grace though faith alone.

Faith is never alone,

"through faith alone"--"Faith is never alone,"--seems to be a very confused theology, IMO.


for faith always has some works with it.

Could you relate to us what those works are?


Yet we are not saved by Grace though faith AND works,

But didn't you just testify to this?


Faith is never alone, for faith always has some works with it.

So--if faith always has works with it--how can it not be "faith AND works"?

alanmolstad
09-30-2017, 08:25 AM
"through faith alone"--"Faith is never alone,"--seems to be a very confused theology, IMO.



well, it's not taught in Mormonism, so it's bound to sound new to some ears at first.

alanmolstad
09-30-2017, 08:28 AM
"

Could you relate to us what those works are?



"?
The only one work the Bible teaches has any merit at all with the Lord.......it is called "thee" work.....the only work....the lone work...


and that work is to "believe" in the Lord Jesus Christ.




This is why we are saved via Grace though FAITH, and not by works.....for only though faith does God's grace visit men's life.

alanmolstad
09-30-2017, 08:31 AM
But didn't you just testify to this?





You think this only because when I say "not by works" you replace my words with the phrase "without works"



If you ever stopped doing that you would suddenly see what Im actually saying.....

alanmolstad
09-30-2017, 08:42 AM
"

So--if faith always has works with it--how can it not be "faith AND works"?



once again....we are saved ONLY,,,,ONLY.....ONLY by grace.

and Grace works Only....ONLY....ONLY though faith.



and not by works.




It's that simple.
No tricky works to perform...no requirements to go climb a mountain, or visit a holy man, or make a trip to a far off land.


Just believe in Jesus.






The works that are always with my faith do not add anything to my salvation.
The works that are always part of my faith, are the sign to the unbeliever of my faith.

My works can be seen by you.

My works can be judged by you.

That is the Justification by works that the Bible talks about.
It is before men.



But Im also told of another justification.

This is the Justification by FAITH that is only seen by the Lord.


This is why the Bible teaches so very clearly that Im saved only via Grace though FAITH, and not by works.




Does my faith always have works?...yes!

Do works get me saved?....no!

Do works help me stay saved?......no!


So what are works for?.....the answer is that my works confirm my faith to the unbeliever.






What does that mean?
It means that while I might tell you over and over that Im a good Christian, you only have my word on that.
You dont know whats going on inside my heart.
You dont know what faith I actually have.
This is why works are so important to God, for they are the way my faith that is hidden comes forth into the world.

For you cant see my heart
You cant see my faith
But you can see my works.


So while my works play no part in my salvation, they yet play an important part in my life, for they represent my faith to you....



For works flow from my faith.

alanmolstad
09-30-2017, 08:44 AM
Let me know if you have any more questions.....

alanmolstad
09-30-2017, 09:34 AM
let me teach a liitle on an idea that not many people think of, or deal with very much in the church.


We say that faith always has works with it.
We say that the works flow naturally from the heart of a saved person.

And all that above is very true.

But we also say that faith without works is dead.
And this also is something that is very true.

But the unasked question is "Who is it dead to?"



I believe the answer is the following-
Lets say Im saved, and a good Christian....
Lets say I have tons and tons of faith.

But lets also say that my life has it's hard spots too....lets say that from time to time I enter a feeling of depression where I simply stop doing anything..

Perhaps its due to the death of a child?....or the loss of confidance?...or just a loss of get up and go?

whatevcer, lets say that while I never walk away from my Christian faith in the Lord, I yet dont have squat for works that come with my faith.

For all to see, my faith is without works......thus my faith is dead.


But who is my faith dead to?.......

Some may answer that in this situation my faith is dead to myself.
And there might be a bit of truth to this, but I think there is another greater answer to the question.


I believe the more correct answer is that my faith is now dead to the world.
For the world around me has stopped seeing the effect my faith has had on me.

So if my faith is dead, it is dead to the unbeliever who would have been able to see my faith in my actions, and seen how my faith has effected me, and thus been shown the path to salvation that I know in the Lord.

alanmolstad
09-30-2017, 10:05 AM
and this gets us back to the question, "what are works for?"


For the answer from the Bible is that works are for people to see....

Thats it.



This is why the Bible tells us clearly that " I will show you my faith by my works."
For this is the real reason faith always has works with it.
It's to be able to show others of your faith.


Works are for the sake of the unbeliever.....works are for the support and building up of the church.

My works dont make me saved

My works dont keep me saved.

But my works allow me to show the world my faith.

dberrie2000
09-30-2017, 12:33 PM
once again....we are saved ONLY,,,,ONLY.....ONLY by grace.

and Grace works Only....ONLY....ONLY though faith.

That's fine, Alan--but my question was to your confusing statements here:



Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post Faith is never alone,

for faith always has some works with it.


Yet we are not saved by Grace though faith AND works,

Again--if faith is never alone--and always has "some works with it"--then how could it not be by grace through a faith with works?

alanmolstad
09-30-2017, 01:56 PM
That's fine, Alan--but my question was to your confusing statements here:






Again--if faith is never alone--and always has "some works with it"--then how could it not be by grace through a faith with works?

We are saved.......saved by grace though faith..


Now with our faith comes likely all kinds of things, like hope, trust , love, honesty, dreams, etc,etc,etc...for faith brings forth out of the heart of the Christian all types of things.

But as for how we are actually "saved", its just the following....


We are saved by grace though faith.



Not faith "and" anything else.........just faith and faith alone.



(But as I said, our faith is never alone)

alanmolstad
10-07-2017, 10:01 AM
That's fine, Alan--but my question was to your confusing statements here:






Again--if faith is never alone--and always has "some works with it"--then how could it not be by grace through a faith with works?

What is this need the Mormons seem to have to attempt to sneak "with works" into the verse?


Why would the Mormons hate the idea that the verse just says we are saved by Grace though faith and not by works so much that they always attempt to add just a bit more to make it look like works play a part in salvation?

alanmolstad
10-07-2017, 10:04 AM
That's fine, Alan--but my question was to your confusing statements here:






Again--if faith is never alone--and always has "some works with it"--then how could it not be by grace through a faith with works?




The verse that is the rule on this topic is that we are saved by grace though faith and not by works.


The Bible goes out of it's way to make sure that we are to understand that it is "not by works".

Yet the Mormons seem to need to try to change this?



Why cant a Mormon just say, "Yes, we are saved by grace though faith and not by works" and leave it at that?


Why do they need to add to the text?